The Bible Is Pro-Child Killing

pregnancyI’ve pointed out before that the Bible nor the God it portrays is “pro-life,” but the BEattitude has compiled some more verses about the Bible’s stance on killing babies in the womb:

God will punish women by aborting their fetus through a miscarriage.

“Give them, O LORD–what will You give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.” (Hosea 9:14)

God teaches the use of a bizarre ritual using cursed “bitter water” to abort a fetus who was conceived through infidelity. (Numbers 5:11-21)

God orders Moses to kill every Midianite woman who was no longer a virgin. (many of these women would obviously have been pregnant) (Numbers 31:15-18)

God promises to destroy the infants of Samaria and rip open the stomachs of pregnant women.

The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open. (Hosea 13:16)

God allows the pregnant women of Tappuah to be ripped open.

At that time Menahem, starting out from Tirzah, attacked Tiphsah and everyone in the city and its vicinity, because they refused to open their gates. He sacked Tiphsah and ripped open all the pregnant women. (2 Kings 15:16)

God commands the killing of infants and nursing babies.

Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey. (1 Samuel 15:3)

God repays your enemies by destroying their babies.

Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us. He who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks. (Psalms 137:8-9)

The BEattitude makes a good point:

Apparently all life is precious to the god of the Bible, unless it is a fetus conceived out of wedlock or conception happens within an “enemy” nation that does not worship him. The Bible teaches that abortion is acceptable if God performs it or he commands it to be done through contaminated water or by violent force….

You can be a pro-life supporter, but leave your Bible at home. It’s horrific and violent stories against innocent infants and unborn children have no place in a discussion on morality and the value of human life.

Indeed. The “always pro-life” position does not come from the Bible, but from conscience. If a person really get their morals from the Bible, be afraid — you never know what God might tell them to do next, because God commanded just about every evil imaginable in the Bible.

  • DDM

    See, the problem with half of what was in this post was that they were killing babies who had been born already. It’s only the babies not yet born that they care about. Once those babies are out of the womb, they could care less about the fate of the child.

    Reference/s:
    Pedophile priests.
    No social healthcare.
    Starving kids in Africa they’d rather feed a Bible than food.
    Children have the chance to be gay once outside the womb.

  • Michael

    Lol, it was always funny to me that Christians somehow think the New Testament corrects all of the horrors of the old Testament, while they sit in church and shout affirmations after hearing the stories containing the very verses you’ve just posted.

    • Chase200mph

      Agreed….. the mythical never existed Jesus claims; All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. … Jesus says looking with lust is the same thing and you should gouge your eye out, … Exodus 1:17-20 The old laws state that one can murder their children if they greave their parents and little girls can be sold a sex slaves…

      • Anna

        I read Exodus 1: 17-20. I do not get where you got allowing girls to be sex slaves out of that passage…or murdering children. Maybe you read out of context? It just states that they killed the boys because the Pharaoh wanted them dead but not the girls. Where you came up with the rest is puzzling to me.

        • Mogg

          Chase200mph seems to have his references confused. Both the legal right to sell your daughter as a slave and the legal right to kill your child for “cursing” his parents are in Exodus 21, and it is clear from the rules around female slaves that sex was the reason they were bought.

  • http://camelswithhammers.com Camels With Hammers

    And such bright lights of the Christian tradition as the venerated St. Augustine himself see the deaths of infants as just one of God’s teaching tools and not at all proof a wicked or indifferent God:

    “Since God achieves some good by correcting adults through the suffering and death of children who are dear to them, why shouldn’t those take place? Once the suffering is past, it will be for the children as if they have never suffered. And as for the adults for whose sake they suffered, either they will be better, having learned from temporal adversities to choose an upright life, or they will have no excuse to avert their punishment in the world to come, since they refused to let the anguish of this life turn their desire toward eternal life.” (On Free Choice of the Will, pg. 116-117)

  • http://ironymous.blogspot.com/ nomad

    “If a person really get their morals from the Bible, be afraid “…be *very* afraid.

    • claidheamh mor

      I am!
      Very seriously afraid.

    • Chase200mph

      I don’t know, it worked out so well for the world concerning Adolf Hitler and his biblical beliefs.. : S

      • Julie

        Are you judging a religion by an imperfect/sinful person who claimed to profess it?

        • ABS

          As opposed to judging a religion by the perfect/sinless people who claim to profess it?

  • Question-I-thority

    (Numbers 31:15-18)

    Kill all the boys, kill all the non-virgin females and keep the virgins for yourselves. I suppose it’s possible to conceive of something more heinous than this but trying saps the spirit.

    Oh, and once you’ve slaughtered all the relatives and enslaved these girls, when you rape their bodies as you have their spirits be sure not to abort any fetus because it would be a sin to destroy valuable property.

  • Siberia

    To be quite honest, I think it’s a pointless comparison, simply because their arguments for “all life is sacred” are also tied to the concept of promiscuity, sex out of wedlock, and sex for non-procreative reasons.

    They’ll argue that those people were wicked unbelievers and that it was done for a reason and that God was merciful in sending these people to a better existence. They’ll argue that regardless people don’t have a right to play God (only God can kill, dontcha know) and that’s God’s will that a woman get pregnant.

    Methinks in this particular discussion, quoting the atrocities in the Bible is counter-productive and useless.

    • Sunny Day

      “They’ll argue that those people were wicked unbelievers and that it was done for a reason and that God was merciful in sending these people to a better existence.”

      Hell is a better existence? Unbelievers don’t go to hell?
      Yay!

      • Siberia

        Hell is a better existence? Unbelievers don’t go to hell?
        Yay!

        No, their excuse is that the “poor widdle babies” will go to heaven, whereas the wicked sinners can buuuuuurn.
        Doesn’t make sense to me either, but I *had* this explanation given to me once.

    • cello

      Yeah but use that – God doesn’t like babies born from a whole host of people (any except his chosen people’s babies only born through a lawful marriage). So perhaps God is sanctioning most all abortions and that is why it he keeps it legal in the US and many other countries. Most of these foeteses are foeteses he would be getting rid of in another manner anyway. It’s not like the BibleGod did all the killing himself. He sometimes had other humans do it for him. So this is just one of his many foetus killing tools. It’s ALL in God’s hands after all.

      • Francesc

        I don’t know if it’s better to use that argument. It is like lying to the kids: if you are bad santa won’t give you christmas’s gifts. Come on! Grow up! Your god shouldn’t be related to human laws in any way, if you want to argue about morality it’s ok, but a magical being doesn’t fit in

    • Chase200mph

      Just like women that allow themselves to be raped, secretly wanted to be raped…?
      God is always the lesser of the society/men that created him. With that said, there are two types of Christians, the first type are fundamentalists. Fundamentalists believe in the whole bible, and they believe the bible is the word of god. Then there is the second type of Christians, the Ex-Christians. The Ex-Christians doesn’t believe in the whole bible. They don’t believe in four legged insects, they don’t believe the word is flat, they don’t believe the world is fixed, they don’t believe it’s okay to murder your children if they piss you off, they don’t believe things like god created the first day on the second day.
      In short, they don’t believe in the bible completely and make apologies for the parts they do chose to keep on believing in. While some of these Ex-Christians still profess being Christians, they ARE on the way out the door (even if they don’t relies it) because their education gets in the way of their beliefs. It’s only a matter of time before they don’t profess the bible is the word of god and stop fooling themselves into believing there is such a thing as god. The final stage of the second kind of Christian, the Ex-Christian is atheism…that’s when the Christian doesn’t want to be identified with this group and their foolishness anymore. This stage of Christianity usually happens when a Christian READS the whole bible for him or herself, outside of the propaganda and brainwashing taught in Church doctrine.
      Have a great day…Ex-Christian or should I say Xtian.

  • Sock

    He (god) would tell them to kidnap a child, lock her up in the back yard, and impregnate her.

    I find that what that sick prick did would be very in-line with something the Bible would say.

    • Olaf

      This guy said that he spoke to god throught a box.

      • khal82

        He must have kept his bible in a box.

        • Olaf

          Lucky that he was a believer, otherwise he would have no moral.

  • http://thebeattitude.com theBEattitude

    Thanks for the pingback, Daniel.

    I occasionally listen to an AM Catholic radio station on my drive home for blog ideas and admittedly for a good laugh. But inevitably I always have to listen to rants about the evils of abortion. Christians claim abortion is evil because we are made “in God’s image”. Yes, abortion is evil because God looks like a hairy man and sits up on a gold throne in heaven.

    As I said in the post, don’t pretend you get your morality and pro-life stance from a sadistic book full of wrathful baby slaughtering.

    • Elemenope

      Yes, abortion is evil because God looks like a hairy man and sits up on a gold throne in heaven.

      Not for nothing, but I’m pretty sure that’s not what they mean.

      • http://thebeattitude.com theBEattitude

        It means different things to every Christian. But essentially, all life on earth is disposable except for humans because God made us similar to himself. Humans and chimpanzees share about 98 percent of the same genes. But chimpanzees are disposable mammals merely for human entertainment.

        Christianity is an egocentric religion that worships an egotistical god. I can tell you from personal experience that faith does crazy things to the human brain causing it to ignore the obvious.

  • claidheamh mor

    Good points, Daniel and theBEattitude. They’ve always been there, and as you said, you’ve said them before, but those bible verses put together say it well.
    All the christian confirmation bias, selective blindness, hypocrisy, etc. that christians have to do to maintain the notion that the bible is moral and God is specifically against abortion have to be unbelievably egregious, or egregiously unbelievable, or… or… something godawful horrible.

  • Pingback: Gravity’s Rainbow » Blog Archive » What I’ve Noticed

  • Rick

    It is nice you read the Bible. Your bias causes you to miss some obvious facts though. For example:

    Most of those passages above are not God speaking. Some are the laments of a person who has seen their homeland destroyed and wishes vengeance on their enemies. God is just reporting the cries of sorrow of His people. He is not condoning or condemning the way they feel – just letting us share the pathos of loss and pain – which often brings comfort to others who are suffering.

    One reports that a man tore open the pregnant women and two verses later it clearly says this guy offended God and did evil all his life. Again, God told what he did. It doesn’t mean God approved of his actions, as you make it appear. It clearly says God did not approve.

    Some are simply reports of what is going to happen. God is just telling what is going to happen – which does not mean he condones it, just reporting by way of warning. For example, if I could know the future, like God knows, I could warn you: “Tomorrow you are going to have a car accident because you will be talking on your cell phone.” I am not saying, I hope that happens nor am I causing it by saying that. It is simply a warning from someone who knows the future. A wise person would not talk on their cell phone tomorrow while driving.

    God also says, “Hey, if you keep doing this, this is what is going to happen.” Since he does know the future, it is actually in kindness that he warns people where their path will lead them. It does not mean he takes pleasure in the horrific things that happen to them if they continue the direction they are going. Nor does he cause it. If he could see the bad that this action will produce but did NOT tell them, that would be cruel.

    As for the death in war. It is ludicrous to compare what takes place on a field of battle to what takes place in a sterile hospital environment under the “care” of medical personnel. To compare abortion to war is just silly. Many innocents die in battle and it is a terrible thing but then to say, because children are killed in battle -even if at the orders of the commanding officer – makes it ok to medically abort children. Apply that same logic to the aged. Because some old folks are killed in battle it is OK to terminate their life in a hospital setting. If that is OK – next logical step, many young men are killed in battle at the order of the military leaders. Therefore, it is OK to slaughter them in hospitals, too. Come on man, comparing war and abortion is ludicrous.

    Keep fighting. It is better to be cold and mad at God than half heartedly committed to Him. So I hand it to you. Keep up the fury and there is a better chance of you slamming head first into Him than for the guy who is wimpy in his convictions about everything.

    • trj

      Rick, I think you’re missing some obvious points.

      > “Most of those passages above are not God speaking. Some are the laments of a person who has seen their homeland destroyed and wishes vengeance on their enemies.”

      I see two of the verses candidating for this: Hosea 9:14 and Hosea 13:16. These are indeed words of an angry man. They are also the words of Hosea, one of God’s prophets, who is speaking on behalf of God. In scriptural tradition concerning the prophets of OT this is to be understood quite literally – Hosea is not imploring God to cause miscarriages or crush his enemies, including pregnant women and infants. No, he is presenting the will and intentions of God.

      Hosea often switches perspectives between himself and God. 9:14 is the prophet himself speaking, while 13:16 is God speaking directly (through his prophet). But it doesn’t really matter – like I said, Hosea is not asking God to do something, he is recounting what God will do. Causing miscarriages seems almost like a minor thing compared to some of the other horrific things God promises to do. Anyway, it would seem strange if 13:16, which are words directly attributed to God (God personally telling that he’ll rip pregnant women open), should somehow not be in accordance with 9:16 (Hosea saying “O Lord … Give them a miscarrying womb”).

      Again, these are not “simply reports of what is going to happen”, as should be clear from their context.

      A third potential candidate for verses that are just men who “wishes vengeance on their enemies” is Psalms 137:8-9. As you no doubt know, Psalms is considered to be a very inspirational part of the Bible. It would seem strange to include such prose, “Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us. He who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.”, as words of inspiration. However, Psalms is admittedly a very fragmented compilation, pieced together from all kinds of sources which had all kinds of different motivations. It may be that 137:8-9 was intended to recount an angry lamentation, or it might be that it was intended to demonstrate the might of God and his image as a warrior god. But whatever Psalms 137:8-9 is saying, Hosea has already demonstrated that God has no compunctions about killing the enemy’s infants and unborn.

      This is also evident in the other verses where God directly commands such killings, ie. Numbers 31:15-18 and 1 Samuel 15:3. I’ve excluded 2 King 15:16, as I don’t see God actually commanding the atrocities in that case.

      When you say “God is just telling what is going to happen – which does not mean he condones it…” and “It does not mean he takes pleasure in the horrific things that happen to them if they continue the direction they are going. Nor does he cause it.”, you are simply wrong. God may not take pleasure in these atrocities, but he doesn’t just tell what is going to happen – he commands it to happen. There’s no way around this fact. And it is disingenuous to consider the pregnant, the unborn, and the infants as just “collateral damage” – innocent victims caught in the middle of war – because God specifically singles them out for destruction in his commands. Most of the time in his numerous dictates about killing and eradicating the enemy he never mentions them, but in the verses quoted above he does. God quite clearly intends them to be destroyed in those verses.

      Furthermore, there is Numbers 5:11-21, which are God’s direct instructions for dealing with women who are suspected of infidelity. The procedure is supposed to make a woman who has become pregnant by infidelity to miscarry and become barren.

      Finally, you mention comparing abortion and warfare. You should read the post again. It doesn’t talk about abortion (except indirectly by mentioning Numbers 5), it talks about God being for killing children. Which he clearly is whenever it suits him, according to OT.

      PS: You’re displaying a common misconception among theists. We atheists are not angry with God. We don’t rage against him. We merely like to point out when his followers demonstrate inconsistency, ignorance, or hypocrisy. This is one such case.

      • Siberia

        You’re displaying a common misconception among theists. We atheists are not angry with God. We don’t rage against him. We merely like to point out when his followers demonstrate inconsistency, ignorance, or hypocrisy. This is one such case.

        This +1. Kinda silly to be angry with someone who doesn’t exist, no?

    • Francesc

      “For example, if I could know the future, like God knows”
      God knows future? So… what about free will?
      If he knows that I’m going to hell, then my free will -chosing Jesus?- it’s not important. If he knows that I’m going to hell but I’m saved through Jesus, then he fails to know the future…

      • SibuRajappan

        You are confusing between foreknowledge and pre-destination. Foreknowledge is that God knows from the beginning till the end. He knew that Men and Women will sin even before He created him, but that didnt stop God from creating Man and Woman. Instead God gave a remedy to their sins – Jesus’ death on the cross.

        Predestination is what Hindus believe in … that their everyday lives happen according to what has already been written.

        God knows whether you will saved or not and He will keep calling you towards Him. But that doesnt mean that He is forcing that foreknowledge on you or in other words he is making you do it. He just knows it….. but yet He will wait for you to turn around and see Him.

        • Sunny Day

          “You are confusing between foreknowledge and pre-destination. ”

          You’re the confused one here. For an omnipotent being they are the same thing.

          “God knows whether you will saved or not and He will keep calling you towards Him…..He will wait for you to turn around and see Him.”

          Why, is he hoping for a surprise? He’s already seen the movie of your life 100 Billion times in his head already and yet he keeps watching hoping that this time the Titanic doesn’t sink? This god thing you believe in is strangely pathetic.

    • Chase200mph

      Grow up, the bible justifies these events, promotes these events, and even commands these events to take place or else. Some of these verses you say…what a cop out, as if this tidbit excuses an evil god and evil book. The bible contains passages of 1127 evils and commends them all, the bible only mentions love 110 times…and it even manages to get some of these renditions wrong. What do you expect from a god that creates the first day on the second day of creation.
      Jesus is so evil that Saint Jerome (while translating the bible) transcribed how an evil being ‘Lucifer’ was going to deceive and destroy mankind. The only problem was Saint Jerome mistranslated Lucifer, the real translation named the Morning Star, AKA Jesus. So not only did Saint Jerome blow the translation, he didn’t catch his mistake and more to the point, Jerome didn’t notice he was writing about Jesus because this evil being was so horrendous and evil he was already resting assured it was Satan.
      Furthermore, god either gave his perfect word to the world or he didn’t….that is to say gods’ word is perfect and means what it is supposed to mean and the Christian Apologies are meaningless…. because if god only inspired man in writing the bible and man got it wrong, then god is imperfect. If god were perfect, then he could have told someone who could have got it right. OR god is imperfect for trying to tell man knowing man wasn’t going to get it right and thus allowing 38000 Christian denominations to spring up and condemn each other to death at every turn. AND in conclusion, if god was all-powerful and all-knowing he could have, NO he would have gotten the correct message out…. or he is imperfect and therefore not god.

      FACT: While some intelligent people can and do believe in the bible, NONE, that is to say NO_ONE can make an intelligent excuse/argument FOR believing in said same. Belief in god always comes off as a cheap scam!

  • Proud Kuffar

    The bible is thick brown shit!

  • Justin

    How many of these scripture versus were read in context of the surrounding stories?

    • http://fugodeus.com/ Nox

      Have you read the surrounding stories? All of the verses in the original post are accurately represented here. Just because some parts of the bible aren’t talked about in church doesn’t mean they aren’t there.

  • Muslim

    the Prophet Mohammed Peace and Mercy and Blessing of Allah be upon Him used to give these commands to His solders and Generals and also His Kalifs did after Him:

    1. Do not kill any woman or Child or Old man.

    2. Do not Destroy any Temple , Nor burn any House .

    3. Do not cut any Tree .

    4. Do not kill or attack any one who dont fight you and do not kill or attack on any priest/or any religious person.

    5. Do not follow[for sake of killing] any one who run in the battle and give security for home surrender to you!

    6. Do not kill any one sake refuge in their house .

    7. Do not Kill the injured solders of the enemy !

    • Sunny Day

      So What?

      What are rules on suicide bombings?

      • Custador

        Inb4 No True Iranian….

      • Muslim

        The Suicide Bombings never were in past times, its invented just in the 20 century .

        and the 1st people who performed it were Koreans ,

        and after them the Pak Army also did in 1965 Indo-Pak war.

        and then after that the Palestinian Freedom fighters start to do as well as the Iraqi & Afghan freedom fighters.

        so now there is two opinions about that:

        1st some scholars forbid it because they think its similar with ending the life, that’s why its not allowed.

        2nd opinion is , if Muslims don’t have well technology and weapons and they are in positions that they cant fight the enemy and in same time protect them selves then in this cause its allowed to do suicide bombings (as the last option) and its also just on the solders of the enemy .. and the same principles which we got from the prophet Mohammed (which I mentioned above) will be applied here as well.

        • Custador

          So, your argument so far is: Islam isn’t as bad as Christianity. Except for the modern-day suicide bombings. And the death sentence for de-converting. And the atrocious treatment of women. And little girls who get acid thrown in their faces or their arms cut off for going to school. And the angry, ignorant mobs. And the theocratic bat-shit insanity.

          You’re alright thanks, I think I’ll stick with atheism.

          • Muslim

            @ Custador

            ofcourse Islam is not bad as Christianity or any other religion ..

            and if you were in same position of those who commit suicide bombings then you would be the 1st suicide bomber !

            and no one is asking you to be Muslim, we informed you, and transferred what the prophet of God told us, now its your choice to do what you want

            { Allah – there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills. His Kursi extends over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Most Great. There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing. Allah is the ally of those who believe. He brings them out from darknesses into the light. And those who disbelieve – their allies are Taghut. They take them out of the light into darknesses. Those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide eternally therein.} Quran 2:255 & 256 & 257

            • Custador

              Fuck. You. I am not so weak or pathetic that I would EVER consider blowing up innocent people, much less trying to make violent suicide seem heroic. And fuck you some more trying to justify suicide bombers. You might not have realised it’s the 21st century yet, but here’s a newsflash: You’re a member of the most backwards, barbarian, vicious, bigotted, misogynistic, xenophobic, lowest-common-denominator faith on this planet. There are things practiced day-to-day in Muslim theocracies that would have been frowned upon by some Western countries 500 years ago.

            • Yoav

              You conveniently ignored all the points about the way muslims treat other muslims who happen to be female or gay or just don’t want to be muslim anymore, or the violent tantrums thrown by some muslims over fukcing cartoons drawn by non-muslims that are supposedly not subjected to the whole no pictures of Mo BS,unless you’re lying about not forcing others to be muslims. Are you going to claim that the king of Saudi Arabia is somehow oppressed and has no other choice except executing apostates?

            • Muslim

              @Custador

              cool down boy, I know U r not Muslim, but I supposed U have some ethics & manners!

              ofcourse if U were in the same position of the suicide bombers then U would do the same what they doing!

              get this point real!

              also U guys now not in their position but I wonder U ending ur lives by ur own hands!!

              go & search in Google to see the rates of suicide commiters in whole over the world, so U will find the Muslims are very less percentage less than 0.01% & Atheist are the high more than 40% …..

              also I am defending & justifying every one who fight for their rights & their lands & their faith, & using every POSSIBLE WAYS FOR THAT!!!

            • Custador

              I find your continued assertion that I would become a disgusting, amoral murderer to be highly offensive, and I’m a short hair away from losing my temper in fine style. Do not EVER repeat that insult here, about me or any other commenter.

              Your statistic about suicides is so fucking absurd as to be actually laughable. I could give a rat’s ass whether or not you want to end your own life – Care factor, ZERO. What does matter to me is that some people want to take other people with them. So yeah, maybe non-Muslims have a higher straight suicide rate, but when it comes to the murder/suicide combo, Muslims knock the ball out of the park every time.

              Turn on Al Jazeera some time – You’ll see at least one story about a suicide bomber in Iraq, Afghanistan of Pakistan pretty much every, single week.

              Between 20 March 2003 and 31 December 2010, there were over 1000 suicide bombings by Muslims in Iraq alone. 12,284 Iraqi MUSLIMS were killed, and more than 30,000 Iraqi MUSLIMS were injured by them in that period. Muslims killing themselves and other Muslims with explosives. Religion of peace, my fucking arse. In Afghanistan, there were 141 suicide bombings in 2006 alone. Again: Carried out by Muslims, overwhelmingly against other Muslims. Last year, Pakistan averaged one suicide bombing per week. Are you going to tell me that Muslims are a repressed people there, too?

              Let’s be clear what you’re justifying: Murder. You are justifying MURDER. End of story. The rest is semantics.

            • Muslim

              @Yoav

              I will tell what my religions saying & teaching, and I am not responsible what some people who belong to my religion but dont follow it….

              also there is no any cause of forcing non muslims to convert, we Muslims have in our societies percentage of non muslims like Christians Hindus Bhuddists Jews & sikh..etc

              so how they living in all these places under muslim rules and non of them complaint of any such blames?!

              also every religion has laws, & as every religion command those who leave it MUST BE PUSHED TO THE DEATH, so does Islam!

              as any worldly systems like communism & Capitalism and any country push to death those who rebel agaisnt it, so does Islam!!

              so what is the new thing here?!!

              and there is no place for “gays” in every society and religion, also Females are treated in Muslim society better and Billion times more nicely than in any other society!

              in Muslim society the Females are not used to advertise for a cheep shoe , unlike the other societies who bring the most beautiful women they have to make them advertise for a cheep product & they cant even sell a bottle of pepsi or 7up without making them naked…LOL

            • Custador

              Oh look, a No True Scotsman argument. How original.

              Here’s a good question: What’s the penalty under Muslim law for apostasy, i.e. for de-converting from Islam?

              That would be death, then. My, what enlightened people you are. Oh, no, wait: You make me want to puke,.

            • Jabster

              Lol … you really are a prat aren’t you. Now just fuck off if that’s ok.

        • Sunny Day

          That would be nice if you weren’t fucking lying.

          • Muslim

            @Sunny Day

            why will I lie ? and for what?

            our religion is open to every one, & its being teach in every where & U can make comparing religions study…

            so there is no way for lie nor any need for it…

            • Sunny Day

              It was enough to read your list of 7 prohibitions against killing and then watch you attempt to defend suicide bombing.

              I don’t care what your motivations are for lying. Any religion that would teach that is worth pigshit.

          • Muslim

            @Sunny Day

            where in my all words I defended or supported the suicide bombings????????????

            I just gave U opinions of two kind of scholars on that…

            also these points which mentioned are obligatory in every where & time, so who dont follow it then its their own mistake…

    • Chase200mph

      Cracks me up to hear Muslims claiming theirs is a peaceful way…

      Slay them wherever you find them…Idolatry is worse than carnage…Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God’s religion reigns supreme.” (Surah 2:190-)

      “Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it.” (Surah 2:216)

      “Men are tempted [in this life] by the lure of women…far better is the return of God. Say: ‘Shall I tell you of better things than these, with which the righteous shall be rewarded by their Lord? Theirs shall be gardens watered by running streams, where they shall dwell for ever: wives of perfect chastity…” (Surah 3:14, 15)

      “The only true faith in God’s sight is Islam.” (Surah 3:19)

      “Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people…They desire nothing but your ruin….You believe in the entire Book…When they meet you they say: ‘We, too, are believers.’ But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage.” (Surah 3:118, 119)

      “If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches…” (Surah 3:156-)

      “To those that declare: ‘God has commanded us to believe no apostle unless he brings down fire to consume an offering,’ say: ‘Other apostles before me [Muhammad] have come to you with veritable signs and worked the miracle you asked for…If they reject you [Muhammad], other apostles have been rejected before you…” (Surah 3:183-)

      “If you wish to replace a wife with another, do not take from her the dowry you have given her…” (Surah 4:20)

      “Forbidden to you are…married women, except those you own as slaves.” (Surah 4:20-, 24-)

      “Believers, do not approach your prayers when you are drunk, but wait till you can grasp the meaning of your words…” (Surah 4:43)

      “Seek out your enemies relentlessly.” (Surah 4:103-)

      “Try as you may, you cannot treat all your wives impartially.” (Surah 4:126-)

      “The Jews and Christians say: ‘We are the children of God and His loved ones.’ Say: ‘Why then does He punish you for your sins?” (Surah 5:18)

      “Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends.” (Surah 5:51)

      “The God will say: ‘Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind ‘Worship me and my mother as gods besides God?’ ‘Glory to You, ‘he will answer, ‘how could I ever say that to which I have no right?” (Surah 5:114-)

      “Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons…he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home…” (Surah 8:12-)

      “Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme.” (Surah 8:36-)

      “If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may fairly retaliate by breaking off your treaty with them.” (Surah 8:51-)

      “…make war on the leaders of unbelief…Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them…” (Surah 9:12-)

      “It ill becomes the idolaters [non-Muslims] to visit the mosques of God…” (Surah 9:17)

      “Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]…until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued.” (Surah 9:27-)

      “It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true Faith [Islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it.” (Surah 9:31-)

      “If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men.” (Surah 9:37-)

      “Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home.” (Surah 9:73)

      “Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them.” (Surah 9:121-)

      “Say: ‘Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom…” (Surah 17:111)

      “‘How shall I bear a child,’ she [Mary] answered, ‘when I am a virgin…?’ ‘Such is the will of the Lord,’ he replied. ‘That is no difficult thing for Him…God forbid that He [God[ Himself should beget a son!…Those who say: ‘The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,’ preach a monstrous falsehood…” (Surah 19:12-, 29-, 88)

      “Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to Him…He has given you the name of Muslims…” (Surah 22:78-)

      “Blessed are the believers…who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)…These are the heirs of Paradise…” (Surah 23:1-5-)

      “You shall not force your slave-girls into prostitution in order that you make money, if they wish to preserve their chastity.” (Surah 24:33-)

      “As for the faithful who do good works and believe what is revealed to Muhammad…He will forgive them their sins…” (Surah 47:1)

      “Muhammad is God’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.” (Surah 48:29)

      “Shall the reward of goodness be anything but good?…Dark-eyed virgins sheltered in their tents…They shall recline on green cushions and fine carpets…Blessed be the name of your Lord…” (Surah 55:52-66-)

  • ezra

    the problem with this reasoning is that thebible did not say that you can get an abortion i recall there being a scripture saying if there are two men fighting and they hit a woman that is pregnant and turns out that her baby dies the man that dose the act have to give a life for a life so god cairs this says god cairs about the embreo witch he created and if you have an abortion you have to give a life for a life

    • ezra

      he has regard for all life even as a bastard child

      • Yoav

        And by regard you mean having the bastard child and even his descendents, up to the 10th generation, shunned and excluded from the community, we clearly have very different idea as to what constitute love and justice.

    • Sunny Day

      The bible does not say if you can ride in automobiles or fly planes, or watch TV.
      The bible does say to slaughter people for the most unreasonable things, sell children into slavery, and to give away all your worldly belongings.

      Thanks for posting more nonsense ezra.

      • UrsaMinor

        It’s OK. I found his post to be a refreshing break from proper English spelling and punctuation.

    • trj

      Actually, the different translations of Ex. 21 don’t agree on whether the punishment by death is due to hurting the baby or hurting the mother or whether we’re talking accidental or deliberate damage.

      Speaking of bastard children, you should read 2 Samuel 12 in which God personally kills the infant son (and bastard child) of David in order to punish David. One of the most revolting cases of injustice in the Bible and a good indicator of how much God cares about infants.

    • Kodie

      If the bible gives instructions on how to induce a miscarriage, it doesn’t have the same application as someone intentionally abusing a woman in order to cause her to miscarry against her will. You can’t find the quote and apply it, because it’s apples and oranges. Nevertheless, the bible contradicts itself all over the place, so just about anyone can find agreement with what they think and disregard contradictions. Furthermore, the bible isn’t written by any god, it’s just what you believe is written in the book that it is sometimes useful to find passages written IN IT to show you just what a load of crap it is and the many ways you hide from what it actually says if it doesn’t concur with what you want it to say, just like you use it to justify your beliefs to us, which generally has no bearing.

      Also, re: god even loves bastards – people can be pretty rotten to a fatherless child of an unwed mother, which although has gotten a little more relaxed, I assume there is a biblical reason that people should hold biblical “propriety” against an infant, but still doesn’t bring evidence for this god that you say loves bastards, much less preclude a woman’s choice to have an abortion. You are using the bible to justify what you wish was true in an attempt to argue your position, disregarding all it says IN THE SAME BIBLE that appears to contradict your beliefs, and seem to be oblivious to what reason an atheist website would have to use your bible to show you the parts you ignore. Way to go, idiot.

    • http://fugodeus.com Nox

      “the problem with this reasoning is that thebible did not say that you can get an abortion”

      No one has said it does. As Sunny mentions it also says nothing of cars or planes. It was at best a book written for a different time.

      But those who wish to restrict access to abortion often cite as their reason that god (the god in the bible) is deeply concerned with the value of unborn human life.

      There are better reasons to be for (or even against) choice. Really we shouldn’t even have to talk about what ancient rabbis thought modern women should do with their bodies. But when pro-lifers try to make the patently false claim that the bible is opposed to killing children, pointing out that the bible is pro-child-killing is exactly the right answer.

      “i recall there being a scripture saying if there are two men fighting and they hit a woman that is pregnant and turns out that her baby dies the man that dose the act have to give a life for a life”

      The scripture that you think you recall doesn’t actually say that. The verses you are trying to quote are Exodus 21:22-23. What they actually say is:

      Exodus 21:17-23
      17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
      18 And if men strive together, and one smite another with a stone, or with his fist, and he die not, but keepeth his bed:
      19 If he rise again, and walk abroad upon his staff, then shall he that smote him be quit: only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall cause him to be thoroughly healed.
      20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
      21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
      22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
      23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life
      ,

      “So that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischeif follow”. This is actually one of the verses you could use to demonstrate that the authors of the Torah did not consider an unborn child to be a human life (note that the previous verse also explicitly says slaves don’t count as a human life). For some more scripture reading on the topic of how much god cares about the lives of children try Genesis 6:7, Genesis 22:2, Exodus 11:1-5, Leviticus 20:9, Numbers 5:18-31, Numbers 31, Deuteronomy 13:15-16, Deuteronomy 20:16-17, Joshua 10:40, Judges 11:30-36, 1st Samuel 15:1-3, 2nd Chronicles 15:12-13 or Hosea 13:16.

      Wherever the idea that all life is sacred in the eyes of god comes from, it did not come from the bible.

  • Matthew Gallagher

    The Bible Was Written By Christians For Christians. That Saying, [Anything in the bible] that is written in red is God Speaking. Anything in black is written by others. All I saw up in those verses were of angry men talking about [THE KILLING OF UNBORN CHILDREN]. Now unless your pig headed selves don’t comply i’ll put it simply! Abortion is and always will be against God and all his followers! And I will agree that the “OLD TESTAMENT” is not as sunny as most Christians would care to agree. but you have to remember the world back then was totally different from now. God hated his creation of man even though he only created us to have a “family”. We committed the first sin, were banished from paradise, and started wars with each other. After all of this madness that is man, God decided to save us! So since that moment up until now is known as “NEW TESTAMENT” also know as the grace period. I think its terrible that [ANYONE] would make fun at Anyone else’s religion be you Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, or Christian. Deep down in side of all of us we want to believe. even if we don’t see it, We don’t want to die alone or be alone forever. We want to know that our loved ones are safe and happy that have passed. Its terrible not to believe, Its depressing, and life goes by so very fast and we cant see it coming, until one day when were begging for more time to a “Magical Being” that didn’t exist decades before. We all have our reasons for doubting God but it doesn’t mean he isn’t there or that you cant go to hell for not believing. I know what I believe and what I’ve seen. I Believe In Jesus Christ with every fiber of my body. I’ve seen cancer cured countless times, and I’ve seen people with crippling injuries dance up in down and I’ve seen my dying grandfather in the hospital wearing dippers and not recognizing who anyone was and was literally at the end of his life. The doctors had no idea what it was and told us to say good by, and who was an atheist for a good potion of it get prayed for by my mother [Once}and was up and talking and asking why he was in the hospital the next day! He is almost 90 and in better health when he was 50! All I know is one thing God is real.

    • Nox

      You should make sure you are correct before trying to correct people. Have you even read your own holy book.

      “The Bible Was Written By Christians For Christians.”

      Most of it was written by jews. For jews.

      “That Saying, [Anything in the bible] that is written in red is God Speaking.”

      No dumb*ss. The words written in red in a red letter edition bible are the words attributed to Jesus in the gospels. The passage in question begins with the words “And God spake all these words” (also this is where the 10 commandments come from). As in the same god who is supposed to be Jesus later in the book. As in the same god you just said was always opposed to abortion. Now I agree the bible was written by men, but that isn’t really what you were trying to say. This is as one of the relatively few places in the “word of god” that specifically says this is god talking. Not just god talking, god issuing his commandments to Moses. Now I’m no respecter of gods, but god damn, that is kind of a central part of the story.

      “Abortion is and always will be against God and all his followers!”

      Already answered. See above.

      “And I will agree that the “OLD TESTAMENT” is not as sunny as most Christians would care to agree.”

      Definitely less sunny as most christians believe. Also more genocidey. Hey maybe if you guys actually read your own holy book, you could stick to repeating the grossly innaccurate statements in the book, instead of making your own grossly innaccurate statements about what it says.

      “I’ve seen cancer cured countless times, and I’ve seen people with crippling injuries dance up in down.”

      We’ve already established that you’re an unreliable narrator. I’m gonna need something more reliable than your word for that.

    • Chase200mph

      They bible was written by romans for Jewish Salves, Christians didn’t exist until 300 to 600 years after they claimed Jesus was born. The Scriptures were written (best case scenario for your side) 70 years after Jesus’ claimed crucifixion. I say best case scenario because according to Christian documentation, Paul would have been an amazing 70 years old IF he was born on the best case scenario on Jesus death OR at the very least, the dream about Jesus came 70 years after Jesus death…either way, Paul encounter is the closes to the best case scenario of having any of the writings having been done in the authors lifetime. This is pretty amazing considering Roman slaves probably didn’t live much past 30. But if the other anonymous authors of the bible really did exist and Jesus was against all odds was real….then were did these poor apostles of Jesus, the ones that left everything (including their families) behind, the ones that took nothing with them, where did they get their swords? The swords they are said to have in this fairytale? A sword would have cost WAY over 4000 dollars by today’s standards. That would be like homeless person carrying around a Barrett 50 caliber sniper rifle, and I am sure that would go completely unnoticed…..same question applies to the lies claim in Moses faked Great Exodus. But that’s a different story…

      • TrickQuestion

        Just have to say…Jewish Salves are the balm….

      • Nox

        There is plenty of room to point out the falseness of christianity without exaggerating. Using wrong numbers doesn’t help our case. I don’t like defending the bible, but there were christians prior to 300, and there were definitely christians prior to 600. The gospels were probably written from 40 (Mark) to 90 (John) years after the alleged date of the crucifixion (more than enough to call their status as witnesses into question). Only one of the apostles (Peter) is said to have had a sword. Paul, who the bible does not claim as a witness of Jesus in any sense beyond having a dream about Jesus, probably wrote Galatians around 20 years after the alleged date of the crucifixion (and neither Acts nor the epistles give any solid clue as to his age).

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  • DeeJay

    Didn’t you know that God is not a respecter of persons…meaning what ever means He decides to use to turn those who are predestined to be His followers to Him, He will use. If that means taking away something you “think” belongs to you then so be it. Anyone who has children will understand if you give a child something and the child acts bad after receiving it, you have every right to take it back and if necessary, give it to someone else or destroy it. Everything in this universe is God’s and He will do with it what He pleases to whatever ends He sees fit. Unfortunately, if you don’t believe, then death of these poor children, women, elderly, is the end. Fortunately, millions of us choose to believe in the “fairy tales”. It is hard to escape when even considering the “Big Bang”; all the matter in the universe condensed in one infinitely packed point exploded…where did the matter from that infinitely packed point come from? Religious, Spiritual or whatever people call themselves don’t have all the answers just like those who choose not to believe don’t have all the answers. Unless someone has video of the creation or evolution of the universe all we can do is live and die. If we exist after death, we know who was right…if we don’t exist after death, we won’t know anything, anymore :(

    • Yoav

      If you really believe this stuff I really hope you’re locked in a padded room. Following your god’s example mean that the reasonable response for your children misbehaving will be to murder the neighbors.

      • DeeJay

        What book and verse in the Bible says this.

        • Yoav

          Just off the top of my head.
          1. Pharaoh refuse to release the israelites (after god made him refuse), god murders who know how many first borns.
          2. David conduct a census, god murders 70,000 random strangers.

          • DeeJay

            In both of these examples you gave, the “king” opposed the Creator (made a bad choice) and the “king’s” citizens paid the price. Who pays for the bad choices of our presidents? Again I ask for an example of God telling believers to kill the neighbors if their children misbehave. ..or concede and give an actual reply/objection/correction to my previous comment; instead of an obvious attempt at misdirection.

            • Yoav

              Are you really that obtuse? In both these cases one person is doing something wrong and other people, who had no control of the act, are being punished. If the president is convicted of a crime then it will be him going to jail not some random person of the street.

    • Nox

      By what justification should anyone accept that god does own everything?

      If you’re going to say it is because he created everything, you should provide better evidence for this than “something had to cause matter, must be god”.

      It is true that we do not know absolutely everything. That is not a good reason to believe patently foolish things.

      • DeeJay

        Okay Yoav, here is a smaller example to understand how hierarchy works (BTW, neither Pharaoh or David were convicted of a crime, so your response to Presidential hierarchy is fallacious at its source; I am a Marine and have first hand knowledge of the results of Presidential hierarchical “issues”) if a husband/father does something against his boss and gets fired, does the husband/father’s family not suffer? You see the same affect when a commander of troops does something wrong and his troops not only suffer but die as a result. Pharaoh/David/Commander (Spock) are dad and their people are not neighbors but their children (figuratively speaking). You get it? Now, if David screwed up and God punish Pharaoh and/or the Egyptians I could see your point.

        Nox, I am not asking you to accept my belief but if I offer you justification it would be from Genesis 1:1 which you most likely would reject because it is from a “foolish” book. On the other hand any justification you offer against God’s ownership (copy-write on creation) would be from where? A science book? Copernicus, Newton, and the like were all thought to believe in “patently foolish things” until they were proven correct (BTW, both were Christians). If you were to offer a counter to Genesis I would be willing to examine it and assess its validity.

        • Jabster

          “If you were to offer a counter to Genesis I would be willing to examine it and assess its validity.”

          Here you go …

          “In the begining there was only chaos. Then out of the void appeared Erebus, the unknowable place where death dwells, and Night. All else was empty, silent, endless, darkness. Then somehow Love was born bringing a start of order. From Love came Light and Day. Once there was Light and Day, Gaea, the earth appeared.

          Then Erebus slept with Night, who gave birth to Ether, the heavenly light, and to Day the earthly light. Then Night alone produced Doom, Fate, Death, Sleep, Dreams, Nemesis, and others that come to man out of darkness. “

          • DeeJay

            Jabster, my fault for not qualifying the idea of a counter to Genesis. Since we have already discussed one cannot know everything, we have to make assumptions, formulate opinions, which lead us eventually to beliefs. Being that belief in Genesis is held by millions of people today and incidentally the forefathers of science, can you offer a document that is as widely believed in that may be used to refute the creation story? Any other claims of spiritually inspired/science literature you believe that can refute Genesis that is widely accepted. What book/written standard do you hold to like we hold to Genesis and all other books of the Bible?

            Who still believes in the Pantheon anyway? Isn’t Greek mythology widely accepted as myth by atheist and religious types alike?

            • Len

              Who still believes in the Pantheon anyway? Isn’t Greek mythology widely accepted as myth by atheist and religious types alike?

              Yes, in the same way that the Christian mythology will be as well, one day :-)

            • Yoav

              can you offer a document that is as widely believed in that may be used to refute the creation story? Any other claims of spiritually inspired/science literature you believe that can refute Genesis that is widely accepted.

              Go to your local university (real one not some christian diploma mil) and look for the building called a library, you will find literally thousands of wildly accepted account refuting genesis full with actual facts and spiffy color illustrations.

            • Jabster

              Jabster, my fault for not qualifying the idea of a counter to Genesis. Since we have already discussed one cannot know everything, we have to make assumptions, formulate opinions, which lead us eventually to beliefs. Being that belief in Genesis is held by millions of people today [millions of people believe that Genesis is not true so does that make them right?] and incidentally the forefathers of science [so you believe everything that the 'forefathers of science' believed – sounds like an argument from authority to me. Which bits that believed do you not accept to be true and why?], can you offer a document that is as widely believed in that may be used to refute the creation story? [no you need to counter the creation story I posted not just state people believe Genesis. When Genesis was not as widely believed did make it untrue?] Any other claims of spiritually inspired/science literature you believe that can refute Genesis that is widely accepted. [again just because it's widely accepted does not make it true. Islam is widely accepted do you think that makes it true?] What book/written standard do you hold to like we hold to Genesis and all other books of the Bible? [no, you said you would assess its validity yet you now seem to be saying that its up to me to access the validity of Genesis.]
              Who still believes in the Pantheon anyway? Isn’t Greek mythology widely accepted as myth by atheist and religious types alike? [It's irrelevant whether I or others believe it or not. You said you'd assess its validity. You have failed to do this.]

        • Theory_of_I

          “…if a husband/father does something against his boss and gets fired, does the husband/father’s family not suffer?”

          Using your apologetics as ‘logic’, The boss would be justified in killing the entire family, as well as any one else even remotely related or living in proximity to the offender. No, there is never justification for slaughtering the innocent, and you know it.

          “…You see the same affect when a commander of troops does something wrong and his troops not only suffer but die as a result.”

          In this case you are confusing an error in judgement with intentional indiscriminate slaughter. Even as a military mercenary, you were told not to kill non-combatant civilians.– After Lt. William Calley ordered the killing of the My Lai villagers he was convicted of murder and sentenced to life in prison.

          If there was a god, and if it held the highest standard of morality, then, as perfectly moral, it would be incapable of violating it’s own standard. It could only judge morality relative to it’s own perfectly moral actions. It would be incapable of befouling it’s own moral conscience by committing the vile and inhumane acts narrated in the bible, unless, of course, it has no standards and is an immoral, vile and inhumane god.

          In which case, if there is such a god, we, being far superior morally despite our faults, should only despise it.

          • DeeJay

            “Using your apologetics as ‘logic’, The boss would be justified in killing the entire family, as well as any one else even remotely related or living in proximity to the offender. No, there is never justification for slaughtering the innocent, and you know it.”

            Again, this is not the statement I am trying to make. Yoaz brought up the idea that God was require us to kill our neighbors to chastize our children. After I received examples of this idea that was supposed to be commanded by God, I refuted the ideas on the basis that the examples were based on human heirarchical systems not commandments of God. So no, the boss would not be justified in killing the entire family but since God commands us to submit to the authorities He has placed over us, if this was the Old Testament, God would be justified in killing the entire family; on the basis of the father violating God’s commandment (the wages of sin are death).

            “In this case you are confusing an error in judgement with intentional indiscriminate slaughter. Even as a military mercenary, you were told not to kill non-combatant civilians.– After Lt. William Calley ordered the killing of the My Lai villagers he was convicted of murder and sentenced to life in prison.”

            Again, the purpose of these examples are to show that God is not the commanding agency in these illustrations. BTW, Lt. Calley was sentenced to life because it was not in his realm of authority to take those lives, my entire point in my original post is that I believe that God is the ultimate authority over all life and will (and has) do with it as He sees fit; even if we don’t understand it, agree with it, or even want.

            “If there was a god, and if it held the highest standard of morality, then, as perfectly moral, it would be incapable of violating it’s own standard. It could only judge morality relative to it’s own perfectly moral actions. It would be incapable of befouling it’s own moral conscience by committing the vile and inhumane acts narrated in the bible, unless, of course, it has no standards and is an immoral, vile and inhumane god.”

            First and foremost, our idea of the highest standard of morality has changed from century to century. Thus, we are not to expect God to act according to our idea of morality. God has never caused anyone to die who was not directly linked to the sin that caused their death. He visits the inequities of the father onto five generations. So daddy don’t oppose God and if you find yourself in that situation, for you families sake, repent.

            “In which case, if there is such a god, we, being far superior morally despite our faults, should only despise it.”
            Again, He is unchanging in His standard, the Bible says He even came down to show us how to uphold His standard and pay the price for us not being able to keep that standard. We used to have slaves…now we don’t, we used to marry multiple wives…now we don’t (legally). I bet we thought our standard was superior back then too.

            • trj

              God has never caused anyone to die who was not directly linked to the sin that caused their death.

              Remember Job’s family? The ones God killed, not beacuse of any sin, but to win a bet with Satan?

              Anyway, you obviously subsrcibe to sin by association. Children must pay for the sins of their fathers, even though they had no part whatsoever in the sin, and subjects to a king must pay for the sins commited by the king, even though they played no part and commited no sin themselves.

              To anybody else this is obviously not justice by a long shot, but to you justice appear to be about ownership. Might makes right. If God treats us one way then that’s just, according to you. If he treats us another, that’s also just according to you. I say bullshit. If you intend to call it “justice” no matter what God does then the word has no meaning – you might as well just call it what it is: ownership. And ownership does not in any way convey moral superiority regardless of your actions.

            • Troutbane

              “God has never caused anyone to die who was not directly linked to the sin that caused their death.”

              This simple statement alone sheds light onto the seldom unspoken of but what I feel is a common belief in America. Bad things happen to sinners only. This is the kind of thinking that says that if a woman is raped, she deserved it (and thus why abortions in cases of rape are sinful), that if a child dies of cancer, they or their parents committed a sin. This is such dangerous thinking and unfortunately a driving force in my opinion of the religious right in this country. This is belief that bad things only happen to those that deserve it. It is the most vile belief in the universe as it basically allows people to be cold to tragedy and gives an excuse not to help those in need. Poor: your fault. Terminally sick with no insurance: your fault. Raped: your fault. Flooded out of your home: your fault. Car accident: your fault. Murdered: your fault.

              This is a disgusting belief. The worst thing is, you likely will vote people into power who share these beliefs.

            • Theory_of_I

              “…our idea of the highest standard of morality has changed from century to century.”

              I’m not using “our idea”, I’m using your supposed god’s own…as in the claimed to be direct from god commandment “thou shall not kill.” A statement enforcing either:

              1. a moral sense of the highest possible order, IOW perfect, a priori, and irrespective of human interpretation. In which case, as I said “…as perfectly moral, it would be incapable of violating it’s own standard. It could only judge morality relative to it’s own perfectly moral actions. It would be incapable of befouling it’s own moral conscience…”

              Or 2. The hideous joke of a thoroughly disgusting tyrant that never tires of perpetrating the horrors of death and torture on the defenseless and helpless subjects of it’s terrorism. A god that should be despised.

              All you have said is that your god can do as it pleases. The only reliable interpretation of your illogical belief is of a god that has no standard, that is caprecious, vain, vicious, horribly destructive of it’s own creation and loved children, unpredictable and untrustworthy. A god which despotically rules your life through threat of unspeakable inhumane death and vile eternal torture if you don’t prostrate yourself before it in the cowardly obeisance of unreasoned abject terror produced by YOUR OWN IMAGINATION.

        • Yoav

          You’re mixing two different issues, indirect consequences and deliberate acts. God could have killed David but instead chose to let him keep his throne and killed 70,000 people that had no way to influence David’s decision whether or not to carry a census. The Pharaoh case is even worse since according to your own magic book god made him refuse to let the Israelites leave so god murdered all these innocent Egyptians because their king did exactly what god wanted him to do.
          In your military analogy it will like your captain kicking a general in the balls and you and the rest of your platoon get court martial while the captain get promoted.

          • DeeJay

            Yoav, my original comment was that I believe God owns it all, He created all of this for His purpose and if He decides to wad it all up and throw it in the trash, that is up to Him. Fortunately, my “magic book” has a better plan than that. Unless I mistyped in my original post, you were the one who brought up killing the neighbors to chastise your kids then gave examples of, what you just agreed were, indirect consequences.

            • Yoav

              So you hold the might make right position on morality, I guess there isn’t a point in trying to try and get you to answer reasonably since you’re clearly incapable of following a simple metaphor.

        • Nox

          “Being that belief in Genesis is held by millions of people today”

          Millions of people believe something that millions of people have been told to believe. What does that have to do with what is true? What makes their opinion particularly likely to be right. They don’t have some special insight into the Universe. They’re just accepting the beliefs they have been raised with (a method which by definition gets you no closer to the truth than where you start). That people who have no special insight into truth and aren’t looking for truth still believe these myths, does not make them true.

          “Copernicus, Newton, and the like were all thought to believe in “patently foolish things” until they were proven correct (BTW, both were Christians)”

          Copernicus and Newton did not have any special insight into the Universe either. They were foundational scientists, but both had access to less information than most people living today. That the brightest minds of a time when the pool of scientific knowledge was nearly empty, found god a credible hypothesis, has no bearing whatsoever on whether god exists. The only special insight these men had was that they studied the natural world and followed the evidence where it led. Which is what you are using them to say we should not do.

          “I am not asking you to accept my belief but if I offer you justification it would be from Genesis 1:1″

          The unknown you tried to slip god through earlier was that we don’t entirely know what started the big bang. The big bang is not remotely the same thing as what is described in Genesis 1:1.

          “Which you most likely would reject because it is from a “foolish” book.”

          No. I would reject it first because it is inapplicable. Then because it is not true. And then because it is from a foolish book which is demonstrably wrong on nearly every topic it speaks on (read another 18 verses after Genesis 1:1 and see what else it says)

          “If you were to offer a counter to Genesis I would be willing to examine it and assess its validity.”

          As a counter to Genesis 1, I offer you Genesis 2. A source which strongly disagrees with Genesis 1, and happens to already be in your holy book.

          “On the other hand any justification you offer against God’s ownership (copy-write on creation) would be from where?”

          To continue a theme and use a source you have already preassessed, I could point to Genesis 3:22, where your book says it was your god that f*cked up. But that isn’t the real reason why yhvh doesn’t own the copyright on creation (and it’s not even because the hebrew creation stories are plagiarized from babylonian creation stories which puts yhvh in violation of some earlier copyrights).

          If a god wants people to follow him, it should give us a better reason to suppose its existence than a flimsy text with the fingerprints of priests all over it.

          If a god did exist that would not automatically mean anything it does is right. We are conscious creatures living in the Universe who have to deal with how things turn out. If any god exists it has more of a responsibility to us than we have to it.

          If such an unjust god as the one in the bible did exist, the only justifiable response would be to refuse to bow to him.

          • DeeJay

            It is obvious that my belief makes a lot of you upset (I can tell from the snide replies, curses, and attacks). That’s okay, you are blessing me (check out the BeAttitudes Matthew 5:11). I have no problem with what you believe because you have a conviction and feel like you must follow it…so do we.

            The point we are discussing on this forum is whether the Bible is “Pro-child killing” or not and I have not once disagreed but offer an explanation (not that I could know God’s mind). If you don’t agree, say so.

            We all die, when and how that will happen is not up to us even if we try to end our own lives. Unfortunately, some lives end earlier than we expect or don’t even get a chance to exit the womb. This is all sad and horrible but just like every other post in this forum, it is all up to debate. I believe that the underlying issue is that most people believe that killing/death is bad because it ends a life but we as Christians believe that life is NOT the body but IN the body. So if a body is killed/dies “we do not mourn as those who have no hope.” (1 Thes 4:13).

            As I have stated previously, God owns it all, what He does with it is not up to us. Is there anything that was made that had a hand in its own making and the decision in why/what it was made for?

            Fortunately, we believe in life after death which has been revealed to us in our “foolish, mythical, plagiarized” book about a “barbaric, unjust god”. One day we will all know for sure but until then, how about a civil discussion about our THEORIES, OPINIONS, and BELIEFS?!

            • Jabster

              @DeeJay

              I’m sorry I missed the bit where you actually responded to any of the questions. …

              “how about a civil *discussion* about our THEORIES, OPINIONS, and BELIEFS?!”

              Requires you to actually respond to questions – so my creation myth, what it your counter to it.

            • Nox

              I thought I was being civil. The first version of that post ended with “the only reasonable response would be to kill him”.

              The whole point of the bible’s pro-child-killing policy being brought up here in the first place is in response to a false claim christians often make about what their book says. One of the primary rallying cries in efforts to restrict women’s reproductive rights is “every life is precious in the eyes of god”. Invariably those who say this are referring to the god of the bible. For anyone who has read the bible, the innaccuracy is obvious. The bible is emphatically pro-child-killing. In the context of the larger debate, this point needs to be made. By defending god’s right to kill children, you’re kind of missing the original point.

              And telling you that you missed the point is not persecuting you. I’m aware of the sermon on the mount, and Matthew 5:11 only applies if people are attacking you by saying false things. You have been honestly and accurately told that the things you have said here are false/inapplicable. Being caught in a lie is not the same as being persecuted. Being told you are wrong is not the same thing as being persecuted. You came here to tell us that your belief is true. And you were told that it isn’t. If you see that as an attack on you, you should expect to be attacked here.

              Still, I’m going to try to state this next part as politely as it can be stated. Since it’s kind of important that you see the statement and not just the snideness. The way I put it earlier might have seemed like I was just trying to insult you. But it really is an important question which gets to the heart of where your method for finding truth conflicts with those you are arguing with.

              How does the number of people who believe Genesis affect the likelihood that Genesis is true?

              Again, this is intended as a serious question. Not as an insult. And after this I’ll be happy to have that discussion about who owns what, whether Epicurus already covered all this, and why people who believe Genesis can’t agree on what Genesis says. But if you can actually answer this question, I think you and everyone else here will find it to be a more fruitful discussion.

              Why do they believe it? What method are they using to determine that it is true? What evidence are they basing their ruling on? What special insight do any of them have that makes their guess about whether Genesis is true any more likely to be right than drawing a worldview from a hat?

          • DeeJay

            “The unknown you tried to slip god through earlier was that we don’t entirely know what started the big bang. The big bang is not remotely the same thing as what is described in Genesis 1:1.”

            Exactly my point. But Genesis 1:1 does say that God created the heaven(s) and the earth. To a group of people with a limited world and planetary view, that would most likely mean God created everything; which is what I believe God meant to communicate to these people.

            “No. I would reject it first because it is inapplicable. Then because it is not true. And then because it is from a foolish book which is demonstrably wrong on nearly every topic it speaks on (read another 18 verses after Genesis 1:1 and see what else it says)”

            Again, this is my point exactly; you reject my idea that God owns everything from its source. I could easily say I think a source you believe to be relevant is inapplicable, not true, and foolish. Please reply with at least one of these “demonstrably wrong” topics the Bible speaks on and most likely I can show you how it has been misinterpreted…if you are open to this. Another 18 verses after Gen 1:1 says, “there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day.” What are you referring to?

            “As a counter to Genesis 1, I offer you Genesis 2. A source which strongly disagrees with Genesis 1, and happens to already be in your holy book.”
            Where do these two contradict each other? I see two accounts of the same event, told in a general sense and then in a more detailed sense. What do you see?

            “To continue a theme and use a source you have already reassessed, I could point to Genesis 3:22, where your book says it was your god that f*cked up.”

            Here is where the civility begins to break down. Event edited, the cursing is not necessary. Besides, Genesis 3:22 says, “Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”. If you are inferring that God did not know this was going to happen and thus “messed up” by creating man in the first place, you missed the part where John 1:1 says that Jesus was already there with God, not as an after thought but as the agent of creation and the reconciliation for mans’ inevitable fall.

            “But that isn’t the real reason why yhvh doesn’t own the copyright on creation (and it’s not even because the hebrew creation stories are plagiarized from babylonian creation stories which puts yhvh in violation of some earlier copyrights).”

            Well if it’s not because Moses wrote the words of YHWY in a fashion that the Hebrews were already familiar with and took the opportunity to correct the theological deficiencies in such polytheistic writings such as the Enuma Elish and the Gilgamesh Epic then what do you posit is the real reason God doesn’t own His creation?

            “If a god wants people to follow him, it should give us a better reason to suppose its existence than a flimsy text with the fingerprints of priests all over it.”

            God wants those to follow Him who are willing to submit to His authority (which is a daily struggle even for the most zealous Christian), not those who wish to appose their own will on His creation. For millennia our very existence has caused us to suppose His existence even before the priests had fingers. I do not suppose I know the mind of God or why He has not made himself more evident to some people but I could guess that revealing Himself so evidently would have the same result as Israel in the desert for 40 years.

            “If a god did exist that would not automatically mean anything it does is right.”
            Nor is anything that we think is right automatically right…remember the slave and wife comment I made earlier.

            “We are conscious creatures living in the Universe who have to deal with how things turn out. If such an unjust god as the one in the bible did exist, the only justifiable response would be to refuse to bow to him.”

            I believe that this is exactly the lesson God is trying to teach us but many of us disagree with the curriculum and His methods. If I were said to be able to create “the heavens and the earth” then maybe I’d have a leg to stand on in judging His actions but I can’t. “you got no legs!…it’s merely a flesh wound” :)

            “If any god exists it has more of a responsibility to us than we have to it.”

            God has showed us through the person of Jesus Christ that He is holding up His responsibility, we on the other hand think we owe Him nothing and He owes us everything. We have responsibility to our children and we hold them responsible because otherwise they may never become responsible.

  • DeeJay

    Yoaz,

    I am very aware of many of these sources from the library. I am asking what source you are pulling from…whether you believe in it or not, you know what my source is.

    • Yoav

      The difference between your source and the ones in the library which you claim to be familiar with is that these sources don’t just make a claims but follow up with evidence of these claims. Cosmology tells us that the sun is older then the earth while genesis claim otherwise, Geology tells us the earth is 4.5billion years old and took way more then a week to form and that there wasn’t a worldwide flood 4000 years ago. Biology tells us that the form of organisms is not fixed but have evolved over time and that the animals living today have not always existed in their present form but developed from a common ancestor. All you offered in return is stumping your feet like a petulant child and scream that you don’t care about reality and that people should give your magic book the respect it clearly doesn’t deserve.

      • DeeJay

        All of the claims about Cosmology, Geology, and Biology are , for the time, grounded in theory, not fact. But you choose to believe in it as such. So who is stumping their feet and being rude to whom? I too choose to believe in things that, for the time, are grounded in theory. That “magic book” says that I should care whether or not you come to respect it as God’s Word but sometimes our respective humanities get in the way.

        I don’t believe we are headed toward civil conversation here. I think the petulant child comment is a bit heated and I don’t believe I have blatantly disrespected you.

        • Johan

          Don’t call faith a theory. That would be a lie. You know the difference, but you pretend that you don’t. Deception isn’t the kind of approach that honest believers would use. If you can’t debate without lies then you have no business bringing your nonsense into the light where honest people can debate it. Keep your lies to a minimum please.

        • trj

          Clearly you don’t know what a scientific theory is. It’s not just some guess or loose hypothesis, but a confirmed, well-researched, and not least well-evidenced set of explanations.

          In short, it is everything religion is not. Equating explanations like you do, saying one explanation might be as good as another, or they are just a matter of belief, is disingenuous in the extreme. We have excellent evidence for the Big Bang happening, and excellent evidence that a Biblical Flood did not, a literal Adam and Eve didn’t exist, the Earth is not a few thoasand years old, etc.

          You willfully choose to disregard the evidence. That is your choice, but don’t pretend for a second that your creationist position is evidentially equivalent to the natural sciences.

          • clevan

            Look up answersingenesis.org for evidence of creationism.

        • Yoav

          You keep whining about tone as a way to avoid actually making a reasoned argument. You think calling you a petulant child was disrespectful, let me show you disrespectful, you’re a moron who doesn’t understand science, evidence logic and basic use of the English language. Trying to have a discussion with you is slightly less productive then having a discussion with a concussed pigeon.

  • DeeJay

    Jabster,

    [millions of people believe that Genesis is not true so does that make them right?]
    millions of people believe that the Big Bang occurred, does that make them right? No, it means that none of us can prove without a shadow of a doubt that we are correct or the other is incorrect.

    [so you believe everything that the 'forefathers of science' believed – sounds like an argument from authority to me. Which bits that believed do you not accept to be true and why?]
    many of the forefathers believed the earth was flat so of course, no, I do not believe everything they believed. I make this point to remind everyone that science and God are not mutually exclusive like some would have it. I believe that these men were trying to discover more about the spiritual through the natural realm; but over time their intentions were distorted/perverted.

    [no you need to counter the creation story I posted not just state people believe Genesis. When Genesis was not as widely believed did make it untrue?]
    One of the key assessments in current day literary criticism is its “plausibility factor”. This factor is unfortunately only measured by how many people are willing to accept the information and ideas stated in a literary unit. The greater the number of believers, the higher the plausibility factor. Millions of people believe there is no God, which makes it plausible and a valid belief. For the same reasons, the opposite (belief in a god) is just a valid. So in this way, I have examined your story that had previously been invalidated by scholars before my time (except Neo-Helenists). And BTW, wouldn’t your own dis-beliefs in God (or gods) negate your own use of this story as a source to structure a plausible argument?

    [again just because it's widely accepted does not make it true. Islam is widely accepted do you think that makes it true?]
    We have already discussed that none of us, at this time, are able to incontrovertibly prove which beliefs are true and which are false.

    [no, you said you would assess its validity yet you now seem to be saying that its up to me to access the validity of Genesis.]
    I do not expect you to access the validity of Genesis’; this has already been done by Jewish, Christian, and non-religious scholars alike. I believe I have covered this under the plausibility factor for literary criticism used today for all literary ideas.

    [It's irrelevant whether I or others believe it or not. You said you'd assess its validity. You have failed to do this.]
    In this day and age, Greek mythology fails the validity test on the basis of plausibility…again, this does not make it untrue but highly unlikely and not accepted as an authoritative source.

  • DeeJay

    “The whole point of the bible’s pro-child-killing policy being brought up here in the first place is in response to a false claim Christians often make about what their book says. One of the primary rallying cries in efforts to restrict women’s reproductive rights is “every life is precious in the eyes of god”. Invariably those who say this are referring to the god of the bible. For anyone who has read the bible, the inaccuracy is obvious. The bible is emphatically pro-child-killing. In the context of the larger debate, this point needs to be made. By defending god’s right to kill children, you’re kind of missing the original point.”

    Though God created us and then seems to have set the rules in opposition to what He had created, it all comes down to free will. He did not create anything that was bad as Genesis 1 says repeatedly, “…and it was ‘good’.” But He gave us the opportunity to choose or reject Him. This is for us all individually to decide. God continuously shows us that all deaths are the result of our opposition to Him. Even when children were killed as a result of His hand, this was the consequence for man opposing the rules that God clearly set. If a stove is hot and someone touches a stove after I tell them it’s hot, will they not get burned? Unfortunately, sometimes the burn is the loss of loved ones including children…I know this personally.

    “And telling you that you missed the point is not persecuting you. I’m aware of the sermon on the mount, and Matthew 5:11 only applies if people are attacking you by saying false things. You have been honestly and accurately told that the things you have said here are false/inapplicable. Being caught in a lie is not the same as being persecuted. Being told you are wrong is not the same thing as being persecuted. You came here to tell us that your belief is true. And you were told that it isn’t. If you see that as an attack on you, you should expect to be attacked here.”

    We have already discussed that your false is true to millions more than just me, your inapplicable is applicable to us as well. So which one is unquestionably true? So outside of the obvious physical actions of persecution, if people began bashing, provoking, and cursing at you because they don’t believe what you believe, is this not persecution? (our dictionaries say so-check it out)

    “Still, I’m going to try to state this next part as politely as it can be stated. Since it’s kind of important that you see the statement and not just the snideness. The way I put it earlier might have seemed like I was just trying to insult you. But it really is an important question which gets to the heart of where your method for finding truth conflicts with those you are arguing with.”

    I don’t believe I ever said I speak the truth but only what I believe; which many have agreed is the only thing any of us can do…believe in something.

    “How does the number of people who believe Genesis affect the likelihood that Genesis is true?”

    In the same way that the more people on this forum believe that by killing Children God is wrong the more likely it is to be seen as true…BTW, I believe I have asserted that I don’t believe this is wrong but why do you believe it is wrong? IF you did agree that God exists and thus owns everything, what would be your justification for insisting He is wrong for destroying any part of His own possession?

    “Why do they believe it?”
    For the same reason some decide not to believe, because they are convinced somehow.

    “What method are they using to determine that it is true?”
    Again, belief is a decision to accept something as true even though it cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.”

    “What evidence are they basing their ruling on?”
    Our mere existence can be used evidence of both views and so on.

    “What special insight do any of them have that makes their guess about whether Genesis is true any more likely to be right than drawing a worldview from a hat?”

    God promises to give those who honestly and whole-heartedly pursue Him the Holy Spirit that will guide you and give you eyes to see and ears to hear. But if we are unwilling to submit, be led, see, and hear, then we will continue walking aimlessly in the dark. [If we as a society are walking in the light (so moral), why do we not at least have free health care for our children? I know plenty of cases where children have died as a result of not having health insurance or enough insurance. It’s all about the Benjamins baby… “You cannot serve God and mammon.” But yet we get mad when God destroys the body (not the soul) for doing the very thing He told us would cause such a consequence. That’s like getting mad at me because I told you the stove would burn you if you touched it and you touched it and got burn…Would you say to me, “man it’s your fault, you let me touch that hot stove!” Well that’s what we say to God everyday we oppose Him and aren’t happy with the results.

  • DeeJay

    “Remember Job’s family? The ones God killed, not beacuse of any sin, but to win a bet with Satan?”

    If you read more carefully, Job’s sin is exposed and unfortunately, he and his family pay that price. If you will, read it again keeping Abraham’s near sacrifice of Isaac (Gen 22) and Jesus’ comment about “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers” (Mat 12:46-50) in mind. Then see if you get an understanding of what Job’s sin was.

    “Anyway, you obviously subsrcibe to sin by association. Children must pay for the sins of their fathers, even though they had no part whatsoever in the sin, and subjects to a king must pay for the sins commited by the king, even though they played no part and commited no sin themselves.”

    Whether I agree with it or not, we as humans also agree with sin by association in our laws, if you are in a house where someone is selling drugs and you don’t know, won’t you too be arrested when the cops bust in with you there? Of course if there are any children in the home they won’t go to jail but will be taken by Child Services. Have you ever been in an orphanage or a foster home? I have. Children always suffer because of the sins of the parents. Many mothers have drowned their own babies (for whatever reason regardless of whether the mother is mentally stable or not), we would agree this is wrong…what did the kids do to deserve that? The mother did wrong, not the kids. A father no longer wants to pay child support so he kills his ex, his kids, and finally himself. What did the kids do? That’s all on dear old dad.

    “To anybody else this is obviously not justice by a long shot,”

    Don’t you mean to anybody else but people who believe in God- most of us understand that, “God giveth and God taketh away” -said by Job himself (Job 1:21).

    “but to you justice appear to be about ownership. Might makes right. If God treats us one way then that’s just, according to you. If he treats us another, that’s also just according to you. I say bullshit. If you intend to call it “justice” no matter what God does then the word has no meaning – you might as well just call it what it is: ownership.”

    Again, I appreciate the conversation but the cursing is not necessary. I am not telling you not to curse but thank you for not cursing at me or in reply to me. I did not bring up the idea of justice but if we are going to talk about it then by whose standard should we decide what is just? Are we to subscribe to the idea that many people believe that way? I don’t think many people on this forum agree with the truth by common belief idea. I , as you have stated, choose God’s standards.

    A fellow Christian helped me while I was struggling with this same issue of justice, he said, “you only see the road ahead (sometimes only by a penlight in pitch blackness), God sees the entire map.” I took this and let it sit on my heart and mind and came to the revelation that though I may not agree with certain things that God does/allows/commands, I can only know the immediate consequences and regardless of how it may look to us, God has always had a plan; which must be executed as He sees fit. Horrible things have happened to me decades ago and now I am beginning to see some of the long term effects of them: I was beat as a child but this makes me want to be a better spouse and parent all my days. Unfortunately, not everyone takes that route; some decide to follow in their abusers footsteps. We all experience this in life, call it what you will.

    “And ownership does not in any way convey moral superiority regardless of your actions.”

    I think we are at a stalemate on this one. Who am I to tell you what to do with your house and car? As a matter of application, who are your car and house to tell you what you should do with them? Granted, we are not inanimate objects but I hope you can understand what I am getting at…though I am certain you don’t agree that God owns everything, please don’t take this simple analogy on ownership out of context to suggest that I am identifying living breathing people as objects.

    I am working at clarifying what you believe and hopefully I can do the same for you. Not that you will believe as I but we can at least understand each others point of view.

    • Johan

      Your point of view? You refuse to deal with honest questions. You use the tactics of deception, which is not what an honest person would do. You refuse to concede points that are made and yet you expect others to concede any points you make.

      You are a dishonest person debating in a dishonest manner. You don’t want to clarify a thing, you just want to spout more dishonesty.

      You and those like you do a great job of exposing christian apologetics as a big pack of lies.

    • trj

      If you read more carefully, Job’s sin is exposed and unfortunately, he and his family pay that price.

      I suppose your refer to the sin of pride (by questioning God) in the story of Job. But it’s really beside the point if Job sinned or not. You say because he commited a sin (and a very mild one at that) his family (and servants) deserved to die? Sorry, that is messed up by any standard of justice. Job’s family and servants may have been affected by Job’s sin, but they had no culpability, yet God killed them. And I might point out that he did so before Job displayed his “sin” of questioning God, so you can’t use that as an excuse for God’s unwarranted killings.

      No matter if you are affected by the sins of others, if you had no part in the sin, then punishing you for it is unjust. This shouldn’t be hard to understand.

      Whether I agree with it or not, we as humans also agree with sin by association in our laws, if you are in a house where someone is selling drugs and you don’t know, won’t you too be arrested when the cops bust in with you there? Of course if there are any children in the home they won’t go to jail but will be taken by Child Services.

      If you’re arrested as part of a drug bust, you are released as soon as it’s clear that you were not a part of the crime – again, in a just society you are judged by culpability, not by association. As for children of criminal or unfit parents being put into child custody, it should be fairly obvious this is not done with the intention of punishing the children but on the contrary with their best interest in mind (even though in practice it often doesn’t appear like that to the children). These two examples you give are not analogous at all to how God punishes innocents by association. God directly punishes associated yet innocent people, whereas in a just society any harm done to innocents is unintentional. It’s a very big difference.

      by whose standard should we decide what is just?

      How about a standard that says: Don’t punish people for things they didn’t do. It’s a simple, widely agreed, and easily rationalized standard. Whereas your “God’s standards” says that God can do whatever he likes, including mass-murdering innocents.

      I don’t think it’s difficult to see which of the two choices actually embraces justice by any reasonable definition of the word.

      As for the “authority by ownership” argument: If we were talking about ownership of inanimate, unfeeling objects, I agree that you as an owner can do whatever you like. But we’re talking about people, which means ownership comes with responsibilty – something you seem to absolve God of.

      Parents effectively own their children; that doesn’t mean they’re justified in treating them any way they like. You have no right to kill or mistreat your children because you as a parent made them and own them. Nor are you justified in intentionally punishing them for something they didn’t do. The same responsibility and the same moral standards apply to God. Except you apparently don’t think so.

  • DeeJay

    Troutbane,

    we believe everyone sins, whether in there actions, words, or thoughts, everyone sins. Christians are no better at being “good” because they believe in Jesus. Even the most chaste, most zealous, most straight arrow (seeming) religious person sins in one way or another. If anyone professes to know God but says they do not sin…they just sinned by lying to you. I was a sinner but now that I have been saved, I am called saint. This does not mean I don’t sin anymore (I wish) it just means that I am more sensitive to it and continue to be conformed to the mind of Christ more and more everyday.

    That being said, I do subscribe to the belief that sinners are to be punished but the bad things that we experience in the world are not direct consequences of our own actions. As I’ve stated lots of bad things have happened to me that I had not direct sin connection to as a child; did I deserve it? Of course not but we believe that a chain reaction started long ago and we are still feeling it today; we brought sin, disease, and death into this world. There are also many things that I have done as an adult that, according to the Bible, would require punishment but have yet to see any consequences. Thanks be to Jesus for coming and accepting the punishment for the sins of all. So now we live under grace not law. We believe that everlasting life is free for the taking because all sins have been forgiven. All you need to do is come as you are, sinful nature and all, and accept your free gift; God will work with you on the rest.

    Our hope in Jesus assures us that all will be right with God’s creation one day and even if bad things happen today we don’t fret because we believe in the promise that things are going to work out in the end.

    • Johan

      You are no better, but you are closer conformed to the mind of Christ? You wouldn’t call that better? If not, you are lying. You obviously think that it is better or you wouldn’t be proud of it and sure wouldn’t be trying to convince other people to be more like you. It is inescapable: you think you are better because you are closer to Christ. Don’t lie about it, have the courage of your convictions. If being closer to Jesus isn’t better then what the hell is the point?

      Your all powerful god doesn’t have the ability to remove sin from the world? He choses to let people suffer until they renounce the sin that he could stop in its tracks in a fraction of a second and you expect others to honor your crazy creator god that makes everyone suffer? If Jesus accepted the punishment for everyone’s sins then why are people still being punished for their sins? You won’t answer those questions honestly. To do so would be to admit that your religion doesn’t make sense.

      Please get an education before you discuss your nonsense on the internet. On a level playing field all of your claims will be completely and utterly destroyed, not that you would ever concede that point… all while expecting people to concede any point you happen to make. Don’t be such a hypocrite. Don’t proselytize. Don’t expect people to treat your long biblical diatribes as if they had any more merit than any other religion’s pack of nonsense.

      You are way too full of shit to respond honestly to any of the questions people have asked you. Instead of responsing, hows this. Think about all of the questions you have been asked and do some research. Study. Inform yourself. Go to a library. Do anything, just don’t come back with some pack of irrational nonsense that everyone here has seen and debunked countless times.

      • DeeJay

        And to that, all I can say is, God bless you.

        • Johan

          Again you refuse to deal with any questions and respond with a non-response. Seriously, go to a library. Get some sort of education on all the things that have been kept from you in order to preserve your ignorance.

          Believe it or not, most of us have had this kind of conversation hundreds of times and seen ignorant liars like you disappear when asked simple questions. You won’t be any different. Obviously you lack the guts to respond honestly, so why respond at all? Go to school. Go to a library. Read a book or something.

          Don’t waste your time spouting nonsense. It will just leave you feeling humiliated and ashamed.

          • clevan

            Oh how you make atheism sound attractive by calling believers ignorant liars. And there are websites that provide evidence for God. Go to answersingenesis.org and godandscience.org. Will atheism set me free from all the religious dogma I’ve been exposed to? Or will it leave me empty without a purpose in life, knowing it doesn’t matter what I do, we all just cease to exist when we die?

            • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ M

              Oh for the love of … well, not God, but reason? Anyways. I’ve looked at AiG, and all I’ve found are lies and misunderstandings of science. Their hydrology is wrong. Their understanding of carbon and other radiometric dating is wrong. They don’t have a clue how astrophysics works, so their attempts to prove a young universe/young earth are … laughable.

              Now I shall send you to a link! Check out http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-index.html. It’s a scientific debunking of every creationist argument the authors have ever heard of. Go learn things.

            • Nox

              To be fair there are a lot of ignorant believers lying for Jesus on this thread.

              It is reason that can set you free from the religious dogma you have had put into you. Atheism is only a possible side effect of a reasoned worldview.

              When you start to realize how much AiG has lied to you (and eventually if you look into it, how much the entire church has lied to you), you’ll have to make the choice yourself whether you’ll be set free from that dogma. You’ll also have to figure out for yourself whether that has to mean your life is without purpose. There’s no god out here. You have to make your own choices and use your own reason. There’s no dictated purpose that we must let define our lives.

              Personally I find my life is far more real and meaningful now that it’s my one chance to explore the Universe, than it was when I was just sitting in god’s waiting room.

            • Jabster

              From AiG:

              “AiG teaches that “facts” don’t speak for themselves, but must be interpreted. That is, there aren’t separate sets of “evidences” for evolution and creation—we all deal with the same evidence (we all live on the same earth, have the same fossils, observe the same animals, etc.). The difference lies in how we interpret what we study. The Bible—the “history book of the universe”—provides a reliable, eye-witness account of the beginning of all things, and can be trusted to tell the truth in all areas it touches on. Therefore, we are able to use it to help us make sense of this present world. When properly understood, the “evidence” confirms the biblical account.”

              This is their starting point for providing evidence for your god. How can you trust the information presented when they’ve already stated that no matter what the evidence is the Bible is always correct?

              It’s like having a murder trial and the judge stating that they know the defendant is guilty so the jury only have to properly understand the evidence to show that they are guilty.

              Would you describe this as a fair trial?

            • http://themikewrites.blogspot.com JohnMWhite

              Why do you think that having a life that comes and goes makes it meaningless? Why do you think having a life that was created without your consent by a superbeing that expects you to obey its every command and then, when you die, worship it for eternity, gives that life meaning? Is it a meaning you actually want?

    • Custador

      “we believe everyone sins, whether in there actions, words, or thoughts, everyone sins. Christians are no better at being “good” because they believe in Jesus. Even the most chaste, most zealous, most straight arrow (seeming) religious person sins in one way or another. If anyone professes to know God but says they do not sin…they just sinned by lying to you.”

      I have never read a more comprehensive admission that Christianity teaches you that you have an illness and that Jesus is the only cure. Think how wonderful your world could be, if only you’d realise that the illness does not exist, and the cure is a lie.

      • Sunny Day

        You can’t sell people your product if you don’t convince them there’s a need for it.

        • DeeJay

          Your right! So let’s get back to the topic of the Bible being “Pro-child killing”.

          • Theory_of_I

            What purpose would be served by discussing any topic with you?

            All you are capable of is regurgitating the same archaic, ignorant, bullcrap scam that has befuddled the weak-minded and gullible for millennia.

            “My god can do anything, so nothing you say matters.”

            Since you believe that is your license to ignore any and all logical explication, any and all contradictory evidence as presented to you in your own bible, and any efforts to engage you in rational dialog about the morality of “…the Bible being Pro-child killing”, any further discussion with you is a stupid waste of time, effort and bandwidth.

            • Troutbane

              Thats why I gave up on this thread. DeJay revealed his true colors earlier as I listed and no amount of backpedaling or apologistics will make up for the fact that he basically is caught in the Euthypro dilemma. Logical will no longer work until he works it out, and I doubt he will.

            • Theory_of_I

              Troutbane-

              Yeah, he’s thoroughly enslaved to the stinking industry of religion…no hope for him, and no point in chasing another pissing contest.

      • DeeJay

        I absolutely agree with your first point, though I assume it was meant as an insult, I completely agree that it was an obvious admission that I believe, “sin is a fatal disease and only Jesus can treat it”- (Andy Mineo ;Formerly known album). If there is no sickness then why are there so many people in rehab and many others don’t even make it there (and that’s just one example). Think of how wonderful God’s (not my) world will be when the sickness is removed and there is no longer a need for a cure.

        But I digress, I came to this forum to talk about the “Pro-Child killing” stance of the Bible, not a full work-up of the entire Christian faith. If we can keep it focused on the forum topic I think we can continue to understand the each others concerns on the topic itself.

        Thanks for the comment.

      • DeeJay

        My fault Custador,

        I hit reply on Sunny Days response and replied to you.

        • Sunny Day

          Fundies have great difficulty knowing how to use the reply button.
          It’s a such a common occurrence we can’t possibly think any less of you.

          • Leith Yearwood

            . . . and they (e.g. Deejay) also appear to have great difficulty identifying the proper person to reply to – Deejay replied to Custador instead of to Clevan who had the original problem. Custador had no problem.

      • clevan

        I have the Reply button twice now to make a comment for Custador. It keeps going back to you, Sunny Day, so it’s the computer or website’s fault, not DeeJay’s. I will try again to reply to Custador.

        • Sunny Day

          pebkac

  • Shawn

    I have found the discussion on this site very intriguing. It is truly fascinating to see the ways so many view God. I can understand why there is so much division concerning Him, because there are so many assumptions or prejudices surrounding His ways. In case it has not been determined already, I am a believer and a Christian, but I also try to be a realist concerning the perception I have of who God really is. In viewing His methods through the Old Testament, there are a few things that are truly obvious, and blatantly undeniable:

    First, God is a God of love. He does amazing things to protect and defend those who love Him.
    Second, God is a jealous God. It tells us in Genesis that man was made in God’s image. I have always believed that this means that if there are qualities evident in mankind, then it is not unreasonable to find them in God. I am, for the most part, a very kind, giving and loving man, who is always eager to show love to others. But this does not mean that if you break into my house, and threaten the livelihood of my family that I will not defend them with extreme prejudice. God tells us that He is a jealous, vengeful God who has no qualms unleashing His wrath upon those who fight against Him. And yes, in some cases, that means that women and children are causalities of war. But it also means that He will do whatever it takes to protect those that have dedicated their lives to Him.
    Third, God has sought to find better, more efficient ways for mankind to come into a relationship with Him, so that they violent methods did not need to be used any longer. Jesus Christ brought a more compassionate relationship with God. It is very evident through the New Testament that God had desired a better way.
    Lastly, God is still the eternal judge. One thing that is true of mankind, is that we expect justice for deeds. Being that God is the creator and all-powerful, it is His divine right to hold us accountable to what He has commanded of us. If I were the CEO of a large corporation, and I hired you to do a job, but you failed to deliver on that responsibility, then I would have no problem dismissing you from your position and finding someone else to fill your spot.

    Suppose for a moment (all of the nay-sayers) that God truly is the creator of all things living. Suppose He did give you life, and in return has required your patronage and devotion. If you were in His position, would you truly believe that you would act any different? Do you not become angry with those that rebel against you? Do you not lash out at people that lash out against you? Would you not be ready to bring harm to those who threaten to bring harm against you or your family? Of course you would. We all would.

    I do not deny that God has done things that seem harsh and abrasive, but I accept that He has that right as God, Creator, and Judge. And it has always seemed more prudent to be on His side, than be the subject to His wrath.

    • Kodie

      Excuses, excuses. Basically, you’re admitting you believe in Santa Claus. He might bring you presents and he might bring you coal. It’s your fault if you are good or bad, and he loves you but he dishes out exactly what you deserve.

      For a second there, it seemed like I ought to be able to look on the world and see how this works – for example:

      Devotion to god would make people BE good and also make them RECEIVE good turns. Arrogance and denial would always make someone BE bad and also make them RECEIVE bad turns. This is not true. Everything you or I know about god is decided by people. Every time you get an opportunity to say hey, that’s not consistent! someone makes up another pile of bullshit that compensates for the errors in this being called god. There is no consistency. Bad things happen to people who love god and good things happen to people who believe in a different god or no god. You just don’t have a case. You have not presented a worthwhile argument here. You have presented a gullible person’s rationalizations why god can still exist even though he seems not to. Mostly you are just superstitious what happens if you stop believing, that your house will fall down and you will grow horns on your head.

      What the hell happened to you that makes you think that? Are you an adult?

    • UrsaMinor

      *Sigh*. Like most theists, you start off on the wrong foot and never recover.

      There are thousands of god-concepts out there. Start by establishing that you’ve picked the right one. because until you do that, any discussion of the specifics of your particular brand of theology must be preceded by the disclaimer “If I am right, then…” and what follows is a meaningless tautology.

      Demonstrate the validity of your underlying premise that there is only one god, and it happens to be your god.

  • Yoav

    there are a few things that are truly obvious, and blatantly undeniable:

    Let me deny them.

    First, God is a God of love. He does amazing things to protect and defend those who love Him.
    Second, God is a jealous God.

    That’s the kind of reasoning you usually get from abusive men as to why the beat the crap out of their wives or girlfriends and most decent human being can see it for its despicable assholary.

    Third, God has sought to find better, more efficient ways for mankind to come into a relationship with Him, so that they violent methods did not need to be used any longer.

    You would think an omnipotent, omniscient being could get it right the first time.

    If I were the CEO of a large corporation, and I hired you to do a job, but you failed to deliver on that responsibility, then I would have no problem dismissing you from your position and finding someone else to fill your spot.

    But if I, for example, preformed an unapproved census will it be OK for you to let me keep my job but kill 70,000 random people who had nothing to do with it (2nd Samuel 24).

    I do not deny that God has done things that seem harsh and abrasive, but I accept that He has that right as God, Creator, and Judge. And it has always seemed more prudent to be on His side, than be the subject to His wrath.

    In short, might make right, so much for universal moral code.

  • http://openlettertoday.com Howie Gardner

    II Kings 15:18 says that Menahem did evil in the eyes of God so the verse does not endorse child killing; it simply acknowledges that it happened. Hosea 13 is simply a prediction of what the Assyrians would do to Samaria. As pitiful as it sounds, they did indeed kill children in this manner. But again there is no endorsement that this is right in God’s eyes. it is known that the Amalakites, the Midianites and the Caananites slaughtered their own children. Archaeologists have uncovered some gruesome remains. Small wonder that the command was given to eliminate them. Psalm 137 is a prophecy of what happened to Babylon after the capital city fell to Cyrus. Those who conquered them were indeed happy just as Hitler and Himler were when the holocaust was in full bloom. There is no indication here that God is putting His approval upon this but rather says they will reap what they have sowed. If you had taken the time to study these texts and read them in context, you would not be writing this. Instead you simply looked for proof texts to justify your preconceived conclusion. Neither history nor science can exist in the presence of presupposition

    • Custador

      “Neither history nor science can exist in the presence of presupposition”

      Do you really not see the irony of this?

      • Sunny Day

        Ginsu knives can’t cut that irony.

    • Nox

      So what you’re saying is god ordered the israelites to kill a bunch of children in order to prevent the killing of those same children?

  • ShadowMan2

    If more people actually read more of the Bible instead of going off of only the pretty-sounding verses that they hear in church all the time, then this already-faulty religion would have been wiped out ages ago.

  • cheryl

    You cant take pieces of the bible and put your own meaning to them.. You have to read the entire story…. All this is doing is trying to tell people god is the reason for abortion well it also states “thou shall not kill” but it gives varioys stories about the killing of men, woman and children. Not to promote it but to open everyones eyes to how much evil can exist in man. A lot of non believers pick apart the bible so they can try to disprove how religious people think and how they interperate the bible. They refer to people who have unconditional love for god “bible thumpers” then get mad when people judge them for not believing.. I dont believe in murder (when a sperm meets a egg a life is formed) but thats everyones choice they are the ones to deal with it.. I do not think god will send someone straight to hell. Its your own personal relationship with god, asking for firgiveness and faith in him that will matter in the end. It says do jot judge and to love your enemies so we all should leave the judging to god. There will always be people who dont believe and those who try to make god seem like a monster but the limitations of human understanding will always be there.. Revelations it says even when god gives people a second chance they do not take it. I will fully embrace god, i know he has unconditional love and also has a very strong wrath to all who oppose him of course he wants believers HE MADE US.. If we evolved from monkeys or gorillas why are they still here? He takes care of animals if people grt them to experiment on they wont go unpunished. There may be no justice on earth but at the end of time no sinner can hide from what they have done. You can point out all the wrong doings in the bible but none of the evil stuff is on or caused by god

    • Nox

      I’m guessing you haven’t read the entire story.

      The bible actually says that all those evil things were commanded or committed by god.

    • http://themikewrites.blogspot.com JohnMWhite

      Here’s what troubles me about people like you: you never really think about anything you define.

      You claim you have unconditional love for god. You have just read a passage describing some of the things that god does and god commands. Because you love god unconditionally, but also have a conscience and are aware that killing babies by the dozen isn’t a good thing, you purposefully misinterpret what you have just read to say things it doesn’t say, and you purposefully misinterpret your holy book to not say the things it does say. You project the blame for your uncomfortable cognitive dissonance on ‘non-believers’ not understanding words that are in black and white and quite plain to see. You are forcing yourself to be dishonest in order to tell yourself that you’re not in love with a mass-murdering maniac. You are Eva Braun.

      The truly unsettling part of all of this is that you believe god has unconditional love for you but also accept that he has a terrible wrath. You hold both these mutually exclusive ideas in your head at once, without being bothered by it. Do you believe an abused spouse should stay with their partner because that partner says “I love you” after brutalising them? Do you believe that partner really loves someone who they beat and torture? Do you believe ‘love’ is compatible with ‘sending somebody to burn forever and ever in hell for not worshiping me enough’?

      Also, are you remotely embarrassed at your atrocious spelling or your complete ignorance of evolution? I ask not to be rude or insulting, but to gauge if you are at all interested in learning and being a reasonable person or are simply a mindless sycophant for a brutal tyrant.

      • erastes

        John, brilliant response. Thanks.

    • Yoav

      If we evolved from monkeys or gorillas why are they still here?

      Really, even Ken Ham and his band of loons have figured out this is an argument that is too idiotic even for them.

    • Jabster

      “You cant take pieces of the bible and put your own meaning to them”

      Well that’s pretty much every version of Christianity screwed over then …

  • http://www.facebook.com/michael.merritt.31 Michael Merritt

    The point, I think, is that there are conditions where Abortion is not only desirable but mandatory. A child conceived in Sin belongs to the Devil. If you believe that Jesus is God you have to realize that he said that there is only one sin that cannot be forgiven: A sin against the Holy Spirit. I do not think fornication, adultery, rape, etc. are acceptable to the Holy Spirit. You have been claiming to be a believer, and yet you deny women the right to exercise their free will. God has given us free will, and you cannot claim to serve Him when you try to take it away. All this should be obvious to true Disciples of Christ. Please quit claiming to be what you aren’t…

  • http://twitter.com/mightili Andrew SC:Shepard

    Daniel, you must be very unhappy with God… I think same works the other way around… Stop being miserable and step into the Light.

  • Dinosaur2019

    only lawful relationship is between husband and wife

    who are

    1) married in orthodox church

    2) only do this to have children

    3) do it on non-fasting days

    4) do it on non-holiday days

    for more info, consult your local orthodox priest

    p.s. oral, anal, masturbation, abortion, contraceptives, surrogacy, adultery,
    pedophilia, necrophilia, beastiality, orgies, etc. are all forbidden

    p.s. during apocalypse aka now, you’re supposed to stay celibate

    newborns get chipped in hospitals

    newborns are given anti-names aka social security

    kids get microchipped during vaccinations

    etc.

    according to russian orthodoxy:

    aborted kids go to hell for 33 and a half years;

    pepsi and makeup are made from cells of aborted;

    contraceptives=early abortion;

    abortion causes (usually breast) cancer;

    pray for aborted, please;

    apocalypse has started because of abortions.

    abortion is murder.

    euthanasia is murder.

    surrogacy is prostitution.


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