I’ve pointed out before that the Bible nor the God it portrays is “pro-life,” but the BEattitude has compiled some more verses about the Bible’s stance on killing babies in the womb:
God will punish women by aborting their fetus through a miscarriage.
“Give them, O LORD–what will You give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.” (Hosea 9:14)
God teaches the use of a bizarre ritual using cursed “bitter water” to abort a fetus who was conceived through infidelity. (Numbers 5:11-21)
God orders Moses to kill every Midianite woman who was no longer a virgin. (many of these women would obviously have been pregnant) (Numbers 31:15-18)
God promises to destroy the infants of Samaria and rip open the stomachs of pregnant women.
The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open. (Hosea 13:16)
God allows the pregnant women of Tappuah to be ripped open.
At that time Menahem, starting out from Tirzah, attacked Tiphsah and everyone in the city and its vicinity, because they refused to open their gates. He sacked Tiphsah and ripped open all the pregnant women. (2 Kings 15:16)
God commands the killing of infants and nursing babies.
Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey. (1 Samuel 15:3)
God repays your enemies by destroying their babies.
Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us. He who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks. (Psalms 137:8-9)
The BEattitude makes a good point:
Apparently all life is precious to the god of the Bible, unless it is a fetus conceived out of wedlock or conception happens within an “enemy” nation that does not worship him. The Bible teaches that abortion is acceptable if God performs it or he commands it to be done through contaminated water or by violent force….
You can be a pro-life supporter, but leave your Bible at home. It’s horrific and violent stories against innocent infants and unborn children have no place in a discussion on morality and the value of human life.
Indeed. The “always pro-life” position does not come from the Bible, but from conscience. If a person really get their morals from the Bible, be afraid — you never know what God might tell them to do next, because God commanded just about every evil imaginable in the Bible.
See, the problem with half of what was in this post was that they were killing babies who had been born already. It’s only the babies not yet born that they care about. Once those babies are out of the womb, they could care less about the fate of the child.
Reference/s:
Pedophile priests.
No social healthcare.
Starving kids in Africa they’d rather feed a Bible than food.
Children have the chance to be gay once outside the womb.
Lol, it was always funny to me that Christians somehow think the New Testament corrects all of the horrors of the old Testament, while they sit in church and shout affirmations after hearing the stories containing the very verses you’ve just posted.
And such bright lights of the Christian tradition as the venerated St. Augustine himself see the deaths of infants as just one of God’s teaching tools and not at all proof a wicked or indifferent God:
“Since God achieves some good by correcting adults through the suffering and death of children who are dear to them, why shouldn’t those take place? Once the suffering is past, it will be for the children as if they have never suffered. And as for the adults for whose sake they suffered, either they will be better, having learned from temporal adversities to choose an upright life, or they will have no excuse to avert their punishment in the world to come, since they refused to let the anguish of this life turn their desire toward eternal life.” (On Free Choice of the Will, pg. 116-117)
“If a person really get their morals from the Bible, be afraid “…be *very* afraid.
I am!
Very seriously afraid.
(Numbers 31:15-18)
Kill all the boys, kill all the non-virgin females and keep the virgins for yourselves. I suppose it’s possible to conceive of something more heinous than this but trying saps the spirit.
Oh, and once you’ve slaughtered all the relatives and enslaved these girls, when you rape their bodies as you have their spirits be sure not to abort any fetus because it would be a sin to destroy valuable property.
To be quite honest, I think it’s a pointless comparison, simply because their arguments for “all life is sacred” are also tied to the concept of promiscuity, sex out of wedlock, and sex for non-procreative reasons.
They’ll argue that those people were wicked unbelievers and that it was done for a reason and that God was merciful in sending these people to a better existence. They’ll argue that regardless people don’t have a right to play God (only God can kill, dontcha know) and that’s God’s will that a woman get pregnant.
Methinks in this particular discussion, quoting the atrocities in the Bible is counter-productive and useless.
“They’ll argue that those people were wicked unbelievers and that it was done for a reason and that God was merciful in sending these people to a better existence.”
Hell is a better existence? Unbelievers don’t go to hell?
Yay!
No, their excuse is that the “poor widdle babies” will go to heaven, whereas the wicked sinners can buuuuuurn.
Doesn’t make sense to me either, but I *had* this explanation given to me once.
Yeah but use that – God doesn’t like babies born from a whole host of people (any except his chosen people’s babies only born through a lawful marriage). So perhaps God is sanctioning most all abortions and that is why it he keeps it legal in the US and many other countries. Most of these foeteses are foeteses he would be getting rid of in another manner anyway. It’s not like the BibleGod did all the killing himself. He sometimes had other humans do it for him. So this is just one of his many foetus killing tools. It’s ALL in God’s hands after all.
I don’t know if it’s better to use that argument. It is like lying to the kids: if you are bad santa won’t give you christmas’s gifts. Come on! Grow up! Your god shouldn’t be related to human laws in any way, if you want to argue about morality it’s ok, but a magical being doesn’t fit in
He (god) would tell them to kidnap a child, lock her up in the back yard, and impregnate her.
I find that what that sick prick did would be very in-line with something the Bible would say.
This guy said that he spoke to god throught a box.
He must have kept his bible in a box.
Lucky that he was a believer, otherwise he would have no moral.
Thanks for the pingback, Daniel.
I occasionally listen to an AM Catholic radio station on my drive home for blog ideas and admittedly for a good laugh. But inevitably I always have to listen to rants about the evils of abortion. Christians claim abortion is evil because we are made “in God’s image”. Yes, abortion is evil because God looks like a hairy man and sits up on a gold throne in heaven.
As I said in the post, don’t pretend you get your morality and pro-life stance from a sadistic book full of wrathful baby slaughtering.
Yes, abortion is evil because God looks like a hairy man and sits up on a gold throne in heaven.
Not for nothing, but I’m pretty sure that’s not what they mean.
It means different things to every Christian. But essentially, all life on earth is disposable except for humans because God made us similar to himself. Humans and chimpanzees share about 98 percent of the same genes. But chimpanzees are disposable mammals merely for human entertainment.
Christianity is an egocentric religion that worships an egotistical god. I can tell you from personal experience that faith does crazy things to the human brain causing it to ignore the obvious.
Good points, Daniel and theBEattitude. They’ve always been there, and as you said, you’ve said them before, but those bible verses put together say it well.
All the christian confirmation bias, selective blindness, hypocrisy, etc. that christians have to do to maintain the notion that the bible is moral and God is specifically against abortion have to be unbelievably egregious, or egregiously unbelievable, or… or… something godawful horrible.
Pingback: Gravity’s Rainbow » Blog Archive » What I’ve Noticed
It is nice you read the Bible. Your bias causes you to miss some obvious facts though. For example:
Most of those passages above are not God speaking. Some are the laments of a person who has seen their homeland destroyed and wishes vengeance on their enemies. God is just reporting the cries of sorrow of His people. He is not condoning or condemning the way they feel – just letting us share the pathos of loss and pain – which often brings comfort to others who are suffering.
One reports that a man tore open the pregnant women and two verses later it clearly says this guy offended God and did evil all his life. Again, God told what he did. It doesn’t mean God approved of his actions, as you make it appear. It clearly says God did not approve.
Some are simply reports of what is going to happen. God is just telling what is going to happen – which does not mean he condones it, just reporting by way of warning. For example, if I could know the future, like God knows, I could warn you: “Tomorrow you are going to have a car accident because you will be talking on your cell phone.” I am not saying, I hope that happens nor am I causing it by saying that. It is simply a warning from someone who knows the future. A wise person would not talk on their cell phone tomorrow while driving.
God also says, “Hey, if you keep doing this, this is what is going to happen.” Since he does know the future, it is actually in kindness that he warns people where their path will lead them. It does not mean he takes pleasure in the horrific things that happen to them if they continue the direction they are going. Nor does he cause it. If he could see the bad that this action will produce but did NOT tell them, that would be cruel.
As for the death in war. It is ludicrous to compare what takes place on a field of battle to what takes place in a sterile hospital environment under the “care” of medical personnel. To compare abortion to war is just silly. Many innocents die in battle and it is a terrible thing but then to say, because children are killed in battle -even if at the orders of the commanding officer – makes it ok to medically abort children. Apply that same logic to the aged. Because some old folks are killed in battle it is OK to terminate their life in a hospital setting. If that is OK – next logical step, many young men are killed in battle at the order of the military leaders. Therefore, it is OK to slaughter them in hospitals, too. Come on man, comparing war and abortion is ludicrous.
Keep fighting. It is better to be cold and mad at God than half heartedly committed to Him. So I hand it to you. Keep up the fury and there is a better chance of you slamming head first into Him than for the guy who is wimpy in his convictions about everything.
Rick, I think you’re missing some obvious points.
> “Most of those passages above are not God speaking. Some are the laments of a person who has seen their homeland destroyed and wishes vengeance on their enemies.”
I see two of the verses candidating for this: Hosea 9:14 and Hosea 13:16. These are indeed words of an angry man. They are also the words of Hosea, one of God’s prophets, who is speaking on behalf of God. In scriptural tradition concerning the prophets of OT this is to be understood quite literally – Hosea is not imploring God to cause miscarriages or crush his enemies, including pregnant women and infants. No, he is presenting the will and intentions of God.
Hosea often switches perspectives between himself and God. 9:14 is the prophet himself speaking, while 13:16 is God speaking directly (through his prophet). But it doesn’t really matter – like I said, Hosea is not asking God to do something, he is recounting what God will do. Causing miscarriages seems almost like a minor thing compared to some of the other horrific things God promises to do. Anyway, it would seem strange if 13:16, which are words directly attributed to God (God personally telling that he’ll rip pregnant women open), should somehow not be in accordance with 9:16 (Hosea saying “O Lord … Give them a miscarrying womb”).
Again, these are not “simply reports of what is going to happen”, as should be clear from their context.
A third potential candidate for verses that are just men who “wishes vengeance on their enemies” is Psalms 137:8-9. As you no doubt know, Psalms is considered to be a very inspirational part of the Bible. It would seem strange to include such prose, “Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us. He who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.”, as words of inspiration. However, Psalms is admittedly a very fragmented compilation, pieced together from all kinds of sources which had all kinds of different motivations. It may be that 137:8-9 was intended to recount an angry lamentation, or it might be that it was intended to demonstrate the might of God and his image as a warrior god. But whatever Psalms 137:8-9 is saying, Hosea has already demonstrated that God has no compunctions about killing the enemy’s infants and unborn.
This is also evident in the other verses where God directly commands such killings, ie. Numbers 31:15-18 and 1 Samuel 15:3. I’ve excluded 2 King 15:16, as I don’t see God actually commanding the atrocities in that case.
When you say “God is just telling what is going to happen – which does not mean he condones it…” and “It does not mean he takes pleasure in the horrific things that happen to them if they continue the direction they are going. Nor does he cause it.”, you are simply wrong. God may not take pleasure in these atrocities, but he doesn’t just tell what is going to happen – he commands it to happen. There’s no way around this fact. And it is disingenuous to consider the pregnant, the unborn, and the infants as just “collateral damage” – innocent victims caught in the middle of war – because God specifically singles them out for destruction in his commands. Most of the time in his numerous dictates about killing and eradicating the enemy he never mentions them, but in the verses quoted above he does. God quite clearly intends them to be destroyed in those verses.
Furthermore, there is Numbers 5:11-21, which are God’s direct instructions for dealing with women who are suspected of infidelity. The procedure is supposed to make a woman who has become pregnant by infidelity to miscarry and become barren.
Finally, you mention comparing abortion and warfare. You should read the post again. It doesn’t talk about abortion (except indirectly by mentioning Numbers 5), it talks about God being for killing children. Which he clearly is whenever it suits him, according to OT.
PS: You’re displaying a common misconception among theists. We atheists are not angry with God. We don’t rage against him. We merely like to point out when his followers demonstrate inconsistency, ignorance, or hypocrisy. This is one such case.
This +1. Kinda silly to be angry with someone who doesn’t exist, no?
“For example, if I could know the future, like God knows”
God knows future? So… what about free will?
If he knows that I’m going to hell, then my free will -chosing Jesus?- it’s not important. If he knows that I’m going to hell but I’m saved through Jesus, then he fails to know the future…
You are confusing between foreknowledge and pre-destination. Foreknowledge is that God knows from the beginning till the end. He knew that Men and Women will sin even before He created him, but that didnt stop God from creating Man and Woman. Instead God gave a remedy to their sins – Jesus’ death on the cross.
Predestination is what Hindus believe in … that their everyday lives happen according to what has already been written.
God knows whether you will saved or not and He will keep calling you towards Him. But that doesnt mean that He is forcing that foreknowledge on you or in other words he is making you do it. He just knows it….. but yet He will wait for you to turn around and see Him.
“You are confusing between foreknowledge and pre-destination. ”
You’re the confused one here. For an omnipotent being they are the same thing.
“God knows whether you will saved or not and He will keep calling you towards Him…..He will wait for you to turn around and see Him.”
Why, is he hoping for a surprise? He’s already seen the movie of your life 100 Billion times in his head already and yet he keeps watching hoping that this time the Titanic doesn’t sink? This god thing you believe in is strangely pathetic.
The bible is thick brown shit!
How many of these scripture versus were read in context of the surrounding stories?
Have you read the surrounding stories? All of the verses in the original post are accurately represented here. Just because some parts of the bible aren’t talked about in church doesn’t mean they aren’t there.
the Prophet Mohammed Peace and Mercy and Blessing of Allah be upon Him used to give these commands to His solders and Generals and also His Kalifs did after Him:
1. Do not kill any woman or Child or Old man.
2. Do not Destroy any Temple , Nor burn any House .
3. Do not cut any Tree .
4. Do not kill or attack any one who dont fight you and do not kill or attack on any priest/or any religious person.
5. Do not follow[for sake of killing] any one who run in the battle and give security for home surrender to you!
6. Do not kill any one sake refuge in their house .
7. Do not Kill the injured solders of the enemy !
So What?
What are rules on suicide bombings?
Inb4 No True Iranian….
The Suicide Bombings never were in past times, its invented just in the 20 century .
and the 1st people who performed it were Koreans ,
and after them the Pak Army also did in 1965 Indo-Pak war.
and then after that the Palestinian Freedom fighters start to do as well as the Iraqi & Afghan freedom fighters.
so now there is two opinions about that:
1st some scholars forbid it because they think its similar with ending the life, that’s why its not allowed.
2nd opinion is , if Muslims don’t have well technology and weapons and they are in positions that they cant fight the enemy and in same time protect them selves then in this cause its allowed to do suicide bombings (as the last option) and its also just on the solders of the enemy .. and the same principles which we got from the prophet Mohammed (which I mentioned above) will be applied here as well.
So, your argument so far is: Islam isn’t as bad as Christianity. Except for the modern-day suicide bombings. And the death sentence for de-converting. And the atrocious treatment of women. And little girls who get acid thrown in their faces or their arms cut off for going to school. And the angry, ignorant mobs. And the theocratic bat-shit insanity.
You’re alright thanks, I think I’ll stick with atheism.
That would be nice if you weren’t fucking lying.