Transgender Inclusion Issue Intensifies

Well, I don't believe the group in question is Wiccan, as such, anyway. Which gets to further things about definitions. It seems initial comments on all this have yet to be restored, but diversity of opinions on these things is to be expected.

As for the transphobic quote attributed to Z. Budapest, (Best to really see that confirmed,) that's uncalled for in any regard. While in the end, if Dianics want to exclude, there's that right, but they shouldn't have to run around denying the identities of trans people and people not fitting their idea of gender roles to do it, and certainly not with what at best borders on hate-speech. Old-wave 'feminist' ideas that transpeople are somehow operatives of 'the patriarchy' made for the sole purpose of infiltrating women's groups is the kind of paranoid histrionics that doesn't help anyone, and has been soundly rejected for a reason, and all it serves to do is isolate the 'old guard' from non-transphobic people and provide lots of transphobic quotes for the Religious Right.

That said, it also doesn't seem to help a great deal for transpeople to act in any way like it, when faced with these sorts of groups, either. Forcing such issues and ritual space don't go together, anyway.

It's about boundaries and definitions, …of people and the meaning of religious ritual, and when those collide, the first approach should neither be to either redefine whole classes of people to justify exclusion, nor, perhaps to think the best way to confront prejudice is to come in with some other absolutes.

There may be valid reasons to restrict access to a ritual, (Fertility-related ones being restricted to fertile people might qualify,) but it should be on *that* basis, not on the basis of 'These are 'really' men, cause we say so, men are the enemy, the whole world and conference must answer to those definitions.'

Conferences like *Pan*theacon are in large measure *about* our diversity. People should expect to meet some. Perhaps plan accordingly. Not assume.

It's interesting that a communication error at P-Con sparked a wider debate about inclusiveness and gender definition, but some of the reactions have been over the top, on both sides.

I'd love to hear Ruth Barrett speak on this. From what I understand, she is a very reasonable and well-spoken person.

I, personally, am sad to see the bashing of feminists and Dianic groups. There are different Dianic traditions, some of whom include men and transgendered people, and there's nothing stopping someone from hosting an inclusive Dianic rite at next year's P-con to run parallel with a "female born women only" rite. Build it and they will come. It seems more constructive than demanding that "women born women" Dianics change their entire religious practice.

Unfortunately, most of the folks sounding off, myself included, weren't actually there. It would be nice to hear from someone who was present.

I know that such suggestions are usually offered in good faith, but they amount to supporting a "separate" status for trans people, some of whom do not go through transition to always be someone else's Other, but to be unambiguously who they are. It feels like ghettoizing.

I think it's certainly a valid factor there, which though cited, may not have been relevant in this case: skyclad womens' ritual with *pre-operative* transwomen is something that I think few of *either* group would necessarily be very comfortable with. Nor would trans*men* be comfortable with some of the definitions of 'who's a 'real' woman' I see floated around this kind of debate, either.

This all seems to manage to come up at a time when, if one follows the LGBT rights struggle, where issues about employment and public accommodations for trans people are once again being used by the Christian Right to try and divide *that* community, not to mention the voting public. At one point when this was last prominent, the 'Culture War' started off with a feminist author named Janice Raymond (who wrote a book called 'The Transsexual Empire' involving a lot of anti-trans hate and conspiracy theories, actually joined with Jerry Falwell to enshrine certain transphobic things in law which have only hurt both feminism and the LGBT community, … now, all of a sudden, here it is again.

In the Pagan community, I think we should simply do better. Instead of conflicts over these boundaries, those most of us who are willing to include trans people as full members of community should be the most prominent in deed and word, and as with anything else, accept we're all going to have different definitions and opinions, and, at least as people of the Goddess, put more effort into having a place for all, rather than pitting what may be seen as 'extremes' against each other.

That means space for everyone, small group, big group, all of us together.

Something my mother pointed out to me after I read her the comment by Z. Budapest – there are many born-women who, due to injury, disease or genetics, do not have wombs, do not bleed or for other reasons cannot reproduce. Would they also be excluded based on these things? And if not, then it all becomes a matter of degree.

Well-said. I'm a TS man, and a Hellenist, and there are some "male rites" that would probably never apply to me, or which should, at best, be modified in order to apply to my own path as a man. No doctor worth his or her degree will say that my "trans puberty" is the same, physiologically, as cisgender pubescent boy's, so giving me the same rituals at twenty-six that a more typical boy would get at twelve seems a tad silly.

That said, there are some ancient women's rites that banashed menopausal women because they lacked fertility, and I have no doubt that if the ancients had technology to reveal women with XY karotypes and AIS, well, they lack fertility, so this woud create a spiritual upset in rites where only fertile women are to be present. That's not to say she isn't a woman, if that's what her soul feels — but that the physical is tied to the spiritual as much as te emotions are, and where certain rites are concerned, that's important.

On the other hand, if the rite was described as "for All Women", then ALL women should be allowed, no matter her physiology.

i am a female-bodied genderqueer married to a trans man. one thing i've learned from many years of involvement with the trans* community is that if they want a separate trans-only space, they will create it. they do not want it created for them. while some of us trans* and gender variant folks do indeed embrace a trans* identity, others do not. for many of us, any identification of us by others as something other than the gender we intend to present can be devastating.

Also, you say, "However, I also know myself well enough to know that, if she's pre-op, I'm going to have a hard time getting past the penis." But how would you know?? It is absolutely inappropriate, disrespectful, othering, and downright rude to ask a trans person what medical treatments they have or have not undergone. it's simply nobody's business.

"I do see a power issue here: people with privilege (cis-women) are defining terminology in a way that excludes those with less power, and then using that terminology to exclude. That dynamic is usually (read: always) a problem."

Well said, Kate!

Judging by the language, spelling, and attitude, Z's statement sounds to me like it genuinely came from her. I find it disturbing and hateful.

Strong words, Kenneth. And well said.

Kenneth this was my exact thought. I have practiced with transgendered women, and they don't feel like men. They feel like women. Therefore to me, they ARE women. Heck… they can come circle with me. This saddens me…

Peace,
Heather

I would like to seek clarity on something you've said here.

You said, "The CAYA Amazons does this at home as well." and given that is it in response to a comment made about something Z. Budapest said and I believe, as stated, that your response reads as though you are saying that the Amazons speak in this manner as well. To my knowledge, the Amazons have not spoken in this manner (the statement on their website is quite the contrary to this). Was it your intent to say that the Amazons (in your first-hand experience) speak this way as well?

Now, if you meant that the Amazons do not include transgendered women in their "many rituals" during the year, it is true that Amazon rituals are Diannic. However, to say that they have "many rituals" during the year is more than a bit misleading and (to me) comes across in a very biased tone (as I have found much of your commentary on the Amazons in general to be seem very biased against them). In any case, the Amazons put on a total of 8 rituals during the year. Considering that as a circle that is a part of CAYA who puts on 60+ rituals during any given year, I think that hardly constitutes "many rituals".

Surely the arguement then is that 8 rituals that are Diannic in nature is too many as the Diannics should be denied their religious rights and other people's rights and needs must take precedent. I cannot agree that this is the solution as the denial of religious freedom – well, I don't think I have to remind anyone here that the very fact that any of us can practice whatever religion we choose is one of the rights that our country is based on. Quite frankly, I am disappointed at many of the comments that have been blazing about (including ones I have seen on your blog) that suggests that the Diannics don't have a right to practice as they so choose. Just because I am not a Satanist and don't believe in their practices or my (very likely) misinformed notions of how and what they do, doesn't mean that I don't think that they too have a right to worship how they choose (so long as they are not hurting my person).

That being said, I am confident that the community-at-large (Amazons included) will work in a fair, rational, and unbiased manner to address this issue as best as is possible. I remain steadfast in this belief, as a soon-to-be-ordained Amazon Priestess (and dedicant to the Goddess Lilith).

I also realize that what I have said here could be interpreted in a very incendiary way (though this is not how I mean to come across) – such is the nature of a text-based medium where we all project our own emotions and feelings into the words on the screen rather than taking a step back to see, feel, and hear the words from the other person's shoes. I certainly hope that you will take a moment to do so here as I mean no disrespect to you (though I may question and point out things that I feel are incorrect or misrepresented). I mean here only a tone that conveys only the purest of intentions towards a reasonable, rational, and as unbiased as is possible discourse on this whole matter.

You say you don't understand transgenderism. Well, first, it's not an -ism. Being transgendered is a state of being, not a doctrine, theory, system, or practice. (reference: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ism) It is a complicated, painful, difficult state of being, and those who are transgendered definitely have "feelings of alienation and not belonging and not being seen as one feels inside."

Perhaps you would benefit from reading the Gender Book(let)? http://bit.ly/GenderBooklet . I mean that in the spirit of helping, not in any nasty way. Please know that. I simply think it is a great starting point for those who don't understand what it is to be transgendered.

Blessed Be and Namaste.

Macha: I thought I made it clear I meant no disrespect to you. I guess I didn't. If you were offended by my comment, please accept my apology. But as someone who is transgendered, I speak from some experience. Should you wish to follow up offline, please feel free to do so.

Every one else: enough already. I've been properly chastised.

Macha: thank you so much for your kindness and wisdom: it is much appreciated and much needed. May we all follow your lead as this debate continues, and use our words to bring solace rather than pain.

Perhaps this may not be the most helpful, but at least one of the trans women I know who is also pagan (Wiccan, specifically, I think) likens her cycle of womanhood as "Eclipse rather than Full Moon".

Very well said

I think the thing with Pantheacon is many rituals are exclusionary, no children, no under 18, 14-18 okay with parental consent, no women (there was a men's only ritual this year), no men. And in fact EVERY room is in use this conference. We've actually quite outgrown the hotel.

Transphobia, biphobia and homophobia in the Pagan Community are much larger issues, that honestly are not going to be solved on blogs or the internet, but in actual communities where people are doing the work. The Pagan Alliance is going to put out our statement on gender discrimination in the Pagan Community later this week.

BB

JoHanna White
Pagan Alliance President

I've read Z's comments on Facebook and her blog posts prior to this, and her spelling and grammar are pretty bad. Just because someone is a published author doesn't mean their spelling and grammar are flawless; in fact I know a number of pagan authors whose spelling and grammar are downright awful. Remember, books have editors and proofreaders. The internet, not so much.

I don't think you should hold this against PantheaCon. They never advertised that all rituals at the Con are inclusive of everyone. For example there's a voodoo ceremony where one must wear all white and not be bleeding because of ritual purity/tradition. So I think it's unfair to say to people "sure, come do a presentation/ritual at PantheaCon, but please make it vanilla enough and throw away your traditions/values so that everyone can play." That's not what Paganism is about. That's not what PantheaCon is about. I don't see it as a place to homogenize, but a place to celebrate the very diversity that is the Pagan community.

There are plenty of things at P-Con that I don't go to because they don't speak to me or they are not tailored to me. There have been things that I've walked out on because they weren't for me. But the beauty of PantheaCon is that at any time, you can always find another place where you are welcome, whoever you are. That said, I am going to have to check out my program tomorrow and see what the wording was. They really should have made it clear (like the Vodou people did) who is welcome and who is not. But please don't take this incident as an excuse to bash PantheaCon or any specific traditions. People come to the con with baggage, they can't just check it at the door, much as we might wish they did, and furthermore I don't think that should be required by P-Con programming.

Wrong; if you read her blog comments elsewhere, her spelling and grammar are pretty atrocious.

Most of her books were actually edited and written by folks like diana paxton. I can say as someone who has spent some time around ZB that she does talk like that and it most likely is her.

I would very much like to address the comment made about the starting time of the ritual, and offer a little bit of perspective as a member of the CAYA Coven clergy and someone who has been a presenter in numerous ritual offerings at PantheaCon over the last three years.

This year I was honored to help facilitate and conduct three rituals at this year's event, and there were some "behind the scenes" issues that most people would not typically be aware of. In example, when our clergy arrived a half-hour early for our CAYA Coven: Wake Up To Spirit ritual at 9am Saturday morning the room we were assigned to was not arranged to the needs that we specified when submitting the presentation request, or as we confirmed it to be when we checked in with convention staff. We had asked for "chairs in circle and a simple three foot table to serve as altar." The room had no chairs along the long wall, a nine-foot table along that same wall and four tables in the room including a six-foot round one. When we contacted convention staff one person showed up 15 minutes later, by which point we had rearranged chairs to our need but had no place to move the extra tables. This delayed us opening the doors a tiny bit, and did not allow us time to do our typical run-through to make sure we were prepared.

The other two rituals I was in that weekend had similar stories: Saturday evening we opened the room hoping to find our requested circle to find chairs in a row and a podium set up in lecture style – once again slightly delaying participant entrance and our clergy forgoing run-through time. Again on Monday morning we walked in to find someone setting up easels and sound equipment though we had requested none, and chairs and tables in workshop/panel configuration. This seemed typical for many others during the weekend. One friend of mine showed up to set up his assigned room for his ritual only to find the doors locked until the time the presentation was scheduled to begin. When the Oracles of the Living Tarot ran late I saw people waiting to set up the room for their presentation next on the schedule as over 150 people slowly exited while demanding to see the end performances from that piece. It happens, and is not always the presenter's fault or within their control. I waited extra time for all of the rituals that I attended this year, and I expect that many others did the same. With so many offerings on the PantheaCon schedule this year I believe that the hotel staff was doing the best that they were able in the brief time-frame between those presentations, unfortunately it did not always work out for the best.

As a clergy member of CAYA Coven I would like to state that we are not a "pagan standard time" organization. We take special care to make sure our doors are open and our rituals start on time. This, of course, is much easier to do in our own "home space," much harder when we must rely on hotel staff to have a space ready.

As for your personal experience in the Rite to Lilith, I am sorry to hear that you did not enjoy the ritual. I heard from several of our priestesses after it had ended that many women in attendance were moved to tears of joy and release. I am saddened that this was not the case for you. We are always open to hearing messages of thoughtful and constructive criticism towards any of the many circles that we offer to the community. We may be contacted at cayacoven@gmail.com at any time.

Thank you for reading

Yours in Service
Adoni Dagaz Greywolf – CAYA Coven

I think a big part of the disconnect is that a lot of people think that "women-born-women" and "transwomen" are two separate things.

They're both women born women. One just has insides that match the outsides. Therefore transwomen fit the criteria, but are being excluded due to something beyond their control. When you consider that so many transwomen deal with this sort of exclusion every day, there is an element of victimhood and shame when they are excluded from a spiritual gathering of women. Because they're being treated as "other," and not the women they are.

very, very good point, and I've said this all along: I NEED my wbw space for my rituals, which is one reason I have not attended Pantheacon because it is so mixed and not woman centered. And I completely support Caya with their Amazon Circle and Lilith ritual. But this does not stop other communities that need special space for their focus to have their OWN workshops/rituals/traditions. There are several Gay Male traditions now I've seen around, I'm not ready to crash those, nor would I qualify, and even a few trans folks trying to start their own to reflect their realities. But why crash the one ritual meant for women born women and then VILLIFY us for having OUR SPACE when there are so many others that are more panssexual, or even more queer/trans oriented. Even though I'm a Dyke, I prefer to mostly ritual with other wbw as that's how I best contact the Goddess, and it has worked well for me for 30 years….To get respect, you have to give respect, not DEMAND it and silence others and their points of view.
-FeistyAmazon

I wish I could down vote a few of the replies on here. Of course there is anger Anna. Our TG fellow humans have been excluded and have felt the pains from other religious communities. Now they are shunned yet again. I for one am TIRED of the excuses. It is just as bad as when a few Christians use the Bible as a reason to shun anyone who is GLBTQ. Taking a stance of "it doesn't affect me" is giving theones who are "harming others" the green light to continue. True enlightenment is looking past what is on the outside and look at the beauty of the person inside. TG's have a heck of a time fitting in many places. The group should have used the opportunity to help the TG's feel welcome and loved and instead did the opposite. Again….what happened to "Harm ye none"

I think it's more about the shared experiences that ciswomen have in common with each other. Celebrating shared experiences is different from "essentialism".

"If Eris decided to toss a chaos grenade, she could not have picked a better target. "

Well said!

People who identify as transgender or transsexual women almost always want to be considered women, otherwise they wouldn't identify as 'women'. They'd identify as genderqueer, third-gender, androgyne, etc. (There are exceptions, and given that society doesn't often recognize non-binary genders, they might appear to be more exceptions than there actually are.)

'Cis' doesn't confuse sex and gender necessarily, as it can be a shorthand for either cissexual or cisgender, depending on the context. Cisgender means they identify with the gender assigned at birth (ie not transgender), while cissexual means they never experience discord with their physical sex (ie not transsexual).

Thank you for putting the "other side" in quotes. This isn't some clearly drawn battle-line for many of us. Z might think it is, but I certainly don't.

I think everyone would also do well to remember how many Dianics are queer, and how long and often they've been demonized for being gender deviants themselves, and for wanting a woman-only Witchcraft of any kind in the first place. Yes, these same arguments can be used to say why what they've done is wrong, but at least recognize that the majority of Dianics aren't exactly coming from places of profound privilege in the majority culture.

Please explain how wanting to have one's own women-born-women space is "hate for men." This is a blatant sexist viewpoint and not helpful to the conversation. It actually shows exactly why women-born-women space is so needed.

As a Dianic madly in love with her husband, let me suggest that you are not contributing to the serious conversation being had here at all.

I think that there is ample historical evidence to say there have been pagan mysteries for men and pagan mysteries for women as well as pagan mysteries for both men and women. No problem for me either way. We got historical precedence. Pagans are strong people and I like it that way. I have a very strong pagan wife and I wouldn't have it any other way. I'm very proud of her and I love her very much.

After reading the response at the CAYA site, it seems to me that this incident could be considered "good glitch" that has focused the awareness of our community. I have no doubt that it will be resolved in a way that will be beneficial to the community as a whole; it certainly looks like it. So I say, let the bumps come! We'll deal with them all!

Oh, dear Lords and Ladies, Michael, thank you, thank you, thank you for perhaps the most lucid comment I've read so far from anyone. You have restored my faith in humanity; I'll buy you a Scotch to drink with your science-punster friends any time you like.

You have no idea how I needed to read this tonight. Blessed be, brother, blessed be.

Thank you!

As a solitary (by circumstance) Dianic AND an active participant in my diverse local Pagan community, your words speak to me so much. Thank you for the sanity!

Awesome response!! I so agree. As a Black Female Wiccan, I know that my experience has some differing points from others. As much as I enjoy the larger community, there are times when being among others like myself lend to a different level of understanding. All parts are important and it is good to be able to do both.

Having a slight connection issue- My apologies for the double posting.

Privilege is not cumulative. You can be privileged in some ways and not privileged in others. For instance: I'm white– privilege. I'm a woman– non the privileged party. I'm cis – privileged. I'm queer– not. That just makes me 100% privileged in certain situations and 0% in others, not 50% overall.

[trans/homo/etc]-phobia also doesn't solely apply to hatred, per se. It applies to a wide variety of personal and institutional discrimination. For instance– one can have lots of gay friends and support gay people and still engage in homophobia by supporting discriminatory policies.

(That comment was on explaining privilege and -phobia in general, not passing any judgments on you.)

-Phobia: -phobia doesn't always denote hatred. It is sometimes used to describe policies or statements that uphold existing personal OR institutional power inequities. Therefore you (universal 'you', not personal 'you') can be, for instance, engaging in homophobic behavior by supporting a policy that discriminates against gay people, even if you have no personal issues with gay people or have many gay friends. (Think of it as the people who say "I can't be racist, I have a black best friend!" right after they said something racist.) So not all instances here using "transphobic" are saying "hates trans people"– more like "are engaging in discriminatory language against trans people."

Hope that helps.

I think part of the problem is that Dianic trad is as much about reclaiming physical female-ness as it is internal femaleness. Not all trans women can, or would even want, to transition to physical female-ness.

Thank you for asking this. I've been wondering the same thing. Are all the men-only groups inclusive of trans men, and that's why we haven't heard anything? Or are trans men seeking entry to male-only spaces so rare, that it just hasn't come up to the degree that the Dianic question has?

Cameron, blessings to you on your journey.

And why I couldn't use the linked FB account to post that is a mystery. I'll blame the iPad I'm using.

To me it's not just about whether or not to have any closed caucuses. The core issue is that while on one hand a lot of people are quite clear about "the menstrual cycle, having a womb, etc., are magically important but frequently denigrated" being a valid reason for having a ritual exclusive to people to whom that's relevant, on the other hand when a whole lot of other people try to discuss the same thing, they reenact cissexism and transphobia in a lot of ways, such as:

- by framing cis women as real women and trans women as interlopers (notice: if you talk about "women" vs. "transwomen," or "woman-born-woman" vs. "male-to-female woman," you're probably doing this!);
- by equating being a woman with having particular anatomical structures or a particular life history (neither of which are true even for a lot of cis women);
- by not noticing that excluding trans women, however it is done, means excluding a group of women because they are in an oppressed minority, and not thinking it's important to reflect on that.

"Should there be no discrimination at public events?"

Not to be snarky, but do we really need to ask that question? A public event that isn't open to the public isn't much of a public event, is it?

I tried to address this in my comment (http://bit.ly/eB72a6 which may have gotten lost in the sea of 150+ comments):

"My opinion is that, with exception given to adult-only events (a designation that is usually a safety/liability issue more than a political matter), open conferences aimed toward pointing out our commonalities probably shouldn't include _____-only events. Those looking for _____-only events should make _____-only space outside of a community-building gathering. A workshop or presentation on _____ that is open to all is one thing. A ritual for _____-only, a ritual that excludes some, seems like an idea at odds with the greater purpose of a "Big Pagan Family" event and, IMO, shouldn't be sponsored by same. Hold that ritual in your hotel room or some other private space. "

In short: "Keep your privates private."

You asked "If it is unethical to exclude one group, then isn't it unethical to exclude any group?"

If the goal is community space, my sources say "yes". YMMV

Well, Cara, I think it's on you at this point to start saying how your standards are supposed to work and how that wasn't about someone else's agenda entirely all along and all.

I feel for you.

A little.

Not much, of course.

We did warn you.

I am also against trans women being included into Dianic space simply because they "pass". If the spaces are open to some trans women, they should be open to ALL trans women.

But as including all trans women means that the body someone wears is no longer significant, it would essentially change the embodied philosophy of Dianic ritual and mystery, and this is what I keep trying to point out.

It's possible to allow exclusionary rituals, without sponsoring them. Someone earlier mentioned a meeting of Gardnerian women over 45 happening at PantheaCon. That's *much* more exclusive. But I'm guessing it happened in an individual's hotel room. So long as the exclusive group is paying the rent, they should be acknowledged to have an absolute right to exclude based on any terms they wish. And the Con can provide a vehicle for exclusive groups to advertise their activities.

You are a wonderful parent. We have to keep talking about this and keep educating as many as possible. It breaks my heart that our TG's are yet shuned away….again. What ever happened to "Harm ye none"

Truth doesn't hurt, but ignorance masquerading as authority certainly can.

You, sir, are mistaking so many different aspects of life for others that it's difficult to know where to begin.

First, gender and physical sex are not the same concept. You are decades behind the science in not grasping this.
Second, gender defining secondary or tertiary traits, such as hair length being feminine, are purely CULTURAL, and as such have varied tremendously over time and place. If my husband were to grow his hair long, he would not then be mistaken for my wife. When my best friend's son grew his hair long, nobody with 2 brain cells to rub together thought he was her daughter.

You, I have to say, must have some very nearsighted Gods that they apparently can only see the outside of a person's body to recognize male and female in the physical forms, unable to see the mind, heart, and soul within that may be other than what the physical form would indicate.

So if you are born male, the Gods will see you as male.
http://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/ErosHermaphroditos….

Your gods are not the only gods out there.

Go fuck yourself.

As for you, 'Old Druid,' yes, someone could do that to you, and you would still be a man. Maybe there's more to life, or even being a 'man' (or not,) than what Lady so *kindly* placed outside your body for comic effect?

'The core truth' about that is not your binary determinism, though. The core truth is that this does not determine who someone *is.*

A lot of transsexuals would 'behave' any way you *liked* if you'd just let them fix their bodies, ….They may not be *happy* with that, but they'd take it.

It's not about 'behavior' like the Christians say.

It's deeper.

If you aren't willing to see deeper, you're no Druid at *all.*

Really? I'm intrigued (I'm also slightly disgusted, but attempting to suspend my judgment). Which traditions/groups are insisting on "blood purity" and upon what basis? Moreover, for what?

I could go either way on if all rituals and sessions should be open to everyone. But I have seen the value of attending specialized rituals at other festivals. For some Pagans this is their only opportunity to participate in a ritual of X, Y, or Z type with a large number of people.

At any given time at PantheaCon there are 6 other events or rituals going that people can go to. So, while others went to the Lilith ritual I was attending the Wendy Rule concert. And there were 5 other options for me at that time.

I think it makes a difference when there are multiple options. Also – if you make all rituals and sessions open to everyone, that means they all need to be kid-friendly, too.

Your comment has made me wish I could hit the "thumbs up" button more than once.

Thanks for a clear, reasoned and real approach to a painful question!

Well, I suggest you calm down *there.* As Pagans we do not actually believe 'Everyone must be the same' to be 'equal.' While it's true that there has been a certain amount of gender-based, *stuff,* the echoes of it have well outlived the voices of it.

Those do, and will, fade.

Most of the heavy lifting there has already been done, we just aren't all conscious of it yet. This is probably why someone decided to try and inject transphobobia into this, very likely expecting a very different reaction than they got. They expected we'd stop *trusting* each other about stuff like this, but I'm happy enough to say, if I know my fellow Pagans well enough, we just don't scare that easy. and mabe it's whoever sent that, even if it's the estimable Z-Budapest that needs a little bit of welcome into the community that is, not the scheme she fears.

Very cogent!

This is what I want to know is WHY is it ok to devalue another human life? Why is this not being addressed? Why are we told "TG needs to start their own group" ? Sure there was a group for all women and men but the people at the event were attempting to define who IS enough of a woman. Why is that being ignored?

The Dianics gift me with oppression. Therefore what they want to be focused? Don't care.

Oh, and given the nature of this response – this flat , belligerent refusal to engage in good faith – can we now put an end to the nonsense about the Dianics in any way being "silenced"?

Wow. Just wow.

Yes, exactly. Unconscious expressions. Because they are there. It helps to be aware. It's also possible and even very helpful to triangulate one's learning about one's own positions of privilege off of one's experiences of being oppressed. Those can get sublimated as well. Though every type of oppression has it's uniqueness, there are some commonalities that can be really helpful to observe.

The Z you see in print is highly edited. If you read her e-list, you will see Z's writings in their unedited form, and the writing style and the sentiments she expresses are virtually identical to the comment you reference.

Core dumping the dictionary is always instant fail, and is the last desperate tactic of the exhausted argument.

And who cares if there weren't any trans Irish or Welsh Gods? That was never the point. We're not Gods… we're just people, and a lot more interesting than you care to know.

This is the start of a historical moment. One where we sit down and shed light on areas that need more love and care. In the end I am sure there will be few who will keep their hearts and minds closed. We are seeing MORE who are willing to achieve true wisdom through education and understanding.

> The “other” naming of female born women as “cis-women” is an example that recalls Euro-patriarchal naming of peoples around the world as Hindus, Natives, pagans, etc., and is evidence that dominance is looming.

But of course trans women remain forvever "trans" women… always the other, regardless of… well, just about anything.

No. "Cis" is not about dominance. It's about not "othering" trans people by default.

Inclusion aside, in some things, you know, a level playing field is not that bad a thing.

Z has always preached anti transsexual ideas. She is a terrible bigot. It is absurd to claim that Dianic ideas were restored by Z and her gang of bigots. It is mainly Garderian witchcraft with pop new age and pop goddess ideas. It has nothing to do with world goddess cultures. The various Goddesses of the world are not one being. There are millions of cultures around the world and the deities worshipped are not linked to some goddess that was reclaimed by Z. Z is such a liar. She has told people that she is a strict ethical vegan. I have seen her eating pork and chicken. Is that vegan. She denies being Romany. It is a fact that she is pure Romany. She was always on the fringes of the Pagan community anyway. I have a cousin who is genetically female but was born without a uterus. She does not menstruate obviously. Is she no less a woman? Of course she is fully female. Z denying womanhood to Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome is absurd. There are many famous AIS women. Ann Coulter the notorious right winger is partial AIS. The late chef and pagan Julia Child was partial AIS. Charles Manson the notorious killer is xx male syndrome. Joan Of Ark was an AIS woman. Intersexed people and transsexuals should be allowed FULL INCLUSION in the pagan community. A friend attended one of Z Budapest’s meeings. Z was cooking human fetus’ in a cauldron with vegetables and spices. Fetus soup she called it. The woman is mentally deranged. She is obviously deranged.