Jason,

Thanks for the great work you’re doing keeping us informed about this group. Here’s some more information on them: http://www.talk2action.org/story/2011/9/14/192516/418

So…. they’re coming to throw some blood at us cause they love us?

I’m a Progressive, Emergent Christian who enjoys your blog. I’m embarrased for my faith and frightened by the very un-Christ-like NAR (and their candidates like Perry and Bachmann). Thanks for your informative posts.

Did reading that make anyone else feel kind of ill? Urgh, “blood-covered” and “love” are not two words I ever expected to see next to each other…

“Blood covered love”? That’s not *at all* astonishingly creepy, or anything.

(Was I the only one that saw the mention of the prayer-bell app and thought of classical conditioning?)

Hey, no need to be embarrassed. IMHO, people who would ‘throw blood’ on others, and force others’ will magically are NOT real Christians. Even us Pagans understand Christ was an emissary of Love and Tolerance. The real problem is the twisted forms of ‘faith’ that fringe elements fall prey to. (Goes way back to Constantine & the conflation of Roman Empire with the original Christian Mystery religion. Hardly a new problem.)

My only question to you is: What has failed with 21st century mainstream Christianity that promotes or allows the rising up of such malignant beliefs? Is there no effort amongst *Christians* to take these hate-mongers to task?

Peace…

Mainstream Christianity is less about Jesus, more about church-going, moral “rules,” and middle-class respectability. (I’m an old Jesus hippie from the 70s.) What can you say about people who would vote for bomb-droppers like Nixon and Bush but declare that smoking a joint is a sin? There’s some good Progressive Christian stuff here on Patheos, and of course the work of Jim Wallis, Eugene Peterson, and people like Rob Bell and Peter Rollins. And Bono (I suppose). What I consider true Christianity — feeding the people, housing the homeless, healing the sick, trying to bring love and joy and grace and mercy to all people whether or not they identify themselves as Christians — that will never be as popular or crowd-pleasing as money-grubbing and power-grabbing. It’s a lot more mundane than throwing blood and “binding Satan” and “pulling down principalities.” I’d love to take these hate-mongers to task, but we don’t have the money, the satellite TV networks, or, really, the time. I have a lot of people to take care of — one friend in a nursing home, another who is paralyzed, another who struggles with alcohol addiction — it’s important that someone tries to bring love and grace into their lives. Not trying to be self-righteous, I just believe my faith is mainly a one-on-one thing. But I do pray that the people of this nation have more sense than to elect some crackpot like Perry, Bachmann, or Santorum. And I do have many pagan friends who are very Christ-like, in the real sense, and I respect and enjoy them.

And more classic LOLs:
“We also pray that this revelation will dismantle and refute all arguments, theories, reasonings, and every proud and lofty thing that sets itself up against the true knowledge of God.”

Yeah, how dare anyone try to use things like reason and evidence against their blind faith in in Zombie Jebus!

“Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

Soooo… what? Now they think they’re Christ himself and not just crazier-than-normal Jesus frea… er… I mean “apostles?”

As for the whole “blood covered love” thing I think I’ll pass. Sounds to me like these nut bags are infected with form of spiritual AIDS (Acquired Intelligence Deficiency Syndrome).

Looks like Massachusetts is in the crosshairs for Nov. 17th, 2011. To find what day your state is being targeted: http://nvtn.org/VOZ_A_LAS_NACIONES/pointman_pos.html

There’s no need for embarrassment, I know there are extremists in every belief system and I do know many Christians who want to be Christ like and see his message as being one of love, not hate.

These people are warped and their twisted ideas and views certainly do not speak for all Christians. I do know many Churches & Christians are wishing to stay as far away from these loons as they can get. Some Christians are even calling NAR Pagan – ugh, we certainly don’t want them either…lol

Most Pagans know these people do not speak for the whole and I appreciate you speaking up on behalf of your beliefs.

Oh, funny! I thought the same thing!

Let the games begin.

Thank you for the kind words and wonderful sentiments. Coming from Italy, and having been raised Roman-Catholic in a place where Catholicism AND Christianity in general are very different than they are here in the US, I am more familiar and respectful of those like you who do believe in the one-on-one representation of the Christian faiths.

I actually usually say that I was raised Christo-Pagan, because that is the way it still is over there. Much of what we did at home and in our church was much more strongly based on many of the Old Religions than the Holy Church wants to admit. I for one loved it, and still consider the Archangel Michael – in His aspect of defender and Light-bringer- one of my Patrons.
I am not bitter about my former faith, and still love and respect the message that Joshua gave us.

As well, I do not deny the validity of anyone’s belief system, and especially not Christianity. I admit, though, that I am not able to be as respectful of those who do not follow the true word of Joshua and his inherent messages of Love, Succor, Aid and Grace in our daily behaviour, but twist the message to further an agenda that would have been abhorrent to Him.

Again, thanks for being here and for maintaining the conversation between our Faiths.

Blessings upon you and may Michael always watch and aid you in your good endeavours.

So…. Christianity is viewed as a horrible threat, and no mention is made in this project of the world’s preeminent theocracy, i.e., that of Islam…?

Why are people so profoundly terrified of Christians? *blink, blink* They are small potatoes compared to radical Islamists. Christians will at least try to tolerate you and your dislike of regular footwear and multiple facial piercings; as well, if they get really pissed off, they might… pray for you. (NOOOOOO!!!!)

The Islamist may regard you fondly at this moment, as you are assisting him in the overthrow of his enemy, but ultimately he’s not gonna be praying for your conversion; he will kill you or enslave you. He has no use for you beyond your effectiveness as a tool against the West.

I have met plenty of Christians with whom I could discuss paganism and even occultism–I have never met a Muslim that expressed any tolerance toward me whatsoever (even when they were guests in my parents’ home). I gave up on them long ago; I avoid them. Christians I can deal with; so what if they don’t like me? They can pray for me all they want.

It disturbs me to see so many good people wasting their time ranting and puffing about Christians. Yeah, we’re closer to a theocracy then you think, but it’s not going to be a Christian theocracy. And the blood may be more than metaphorical at that point. Just sayin.

Those are some… interesting state titles. “The State to Throw Jezebel From the Wall,” what? Who decided which state got these…?

I have lived both as Christian and as a Pagan in Muslim lands. I can say I was blessed to have had amazing religious discussions with most of the Muslims I have encountered and become friends with.

Your statements make me itch a bit, as they too smack of the same fear-mongering and intolerance that we often talk about being used against us Pagans. I do recognize and understand that you were not as lucky as I was in your encounters, and that your opinions were shaped by those encounters.

I wish I could let you experience all the Faiths of the Great Book as I have. They are all beautiful in their own way, despite all the stories and extreme perversions of them and about them. They all have their violent parts, born of times when war was even more prevalent in the Known World than it is now. But, underlying them all, steeped throughout, I have found messages of Love and Understanding. Yes, in the Christian Bibles (all versions of it, and I own and have read every one I could lay my hands on), in the Torah and its addenda, as well as in the one and only Qu’ran. I have learned from all of them, and taken as much of the good messages as I could, and dismissed some of the others as written by mere men in times of travail, and very apt for THOSE times.

How, pray, do these people justify using a It is a “magical technique to increase the power of their intent through repetitive reinforcement.” ?

I found Jacobs imagery reminded me more of Transmogrification of the Wine and Host than anything Pagan-anyone else catch that? Scary, crazy people…

One trained Witch can negate a thousand Christian’s praying their brains out. Witches, Magicians, and Shamans actually spend decades training to work with energy and cast spells. Your average Christian is metaphysically untrained, and their astral energies are few. This is no threat.

I’m still confused about how pagans are “cursing” them…?

Yes, because your personal experiences represent the sum total of how Muslims and Christians behave towards pagans. One of my pagan study circles included a Muslim who was respectful and kind. And there were two Christians who behaved similarly. One the other hand, I’ve personally recieved death threats from Christians, two of which entered an occult shop where we were meeting, said we needed Jesus, called the women whores, and tried to start a physical fight with the owner (before realizing the store was stocked with sharp pointy knives and ducking out).

Domestic Muslims have little to no political clout in this country. However, the fundamentalists Christians here are envious of the power fundamentalist Muslims have in the Middle East (some have actively voiced this) and do crave a similar power here. Christian sects who literally view democracy as a hersesy have the ears of some of our most powerful politicians.

This article is about *Christians* who view a symbol of American *liberty* as a threat. If you don’t see the possible implications of that mode of thought becoming mainstream, so be it. Me, I’d rather work to keep the first domino from falling before it sets off a chain reaction.

So why did the Ghost Dance fail when it had the stength of many of the most revered shamans from the tribes of the Great Plains behind it?

Maybe because the army kept killing the people trying to dance it?

This kind of lie is built right into their beliefs. Projection and lack of self-knowledge are endemic among this sort of ‘Christian’. They fear that Pagans are ‘targeting’ their children…because they target the children of others for conversion. They fear curses because they are in the midst of cursing others.

As someone who has seen the light of the goddess shining brightly in the night of the shadow of the church I think these people are the biggest sort of hypocrites imaginable.

I’d just observe that you are far, far more likely as an American to come across a well-armed Christian Identity / Christianist militia member than a radical Islamist. Which is to say…in a country that identifies as 80% Christian and 0.6% Muslim, the smart money is on watching the fringe of that 80%.

Oh yeah, you can totally discuss paganism and occultism with christians. And while you’re doing that, other christians will be busy legislating their dogma at the local, state and federal level. While folks like yourself are telling us that the real threat is sharia law, christians have been rather easily convincing people to vote down the civil rights of their fellow Americans. While we’re hearing about this supposed “fifth column” infiltrating our military because of some scumbag that shot up his fellow soldiers, the upper ranks of the Air Force (you know, the folks in control of a good chunk of the US’ nuclear arsenal) are full of hardcore fundamentalist christians. Who, I might remind you, believe completely in an inevitable and unavoidable apocalyptic war between ultimate metaphysical good and ultimate metaphysical evil.

You’re going to have to excuse me if I’m a little bit more worried about that kind of political power and ideological influence than I am about the ridiculous assertion that a religious minority in this country is going to somehow not just rival but exceed that power and influence.

I’ve written a small incantation for this effort, that may be getting a little traction. See the text here:
http://intothemound.blogspot.com/2011/07/countermagic.html

This is why I don’t like things like the Coexist bumper-stickers: it is impossible to reach coexistence or compromise with people who don’t want to do so. In the US, it’s sort of like the debt committee where there are automatic cuts if the side that wants cuts doesn’t get even more cuts agreed to.

Individual Christians (and Jews, and Muslims) may be nice… but their religion, when they get together and start practicing what the God of Abraham have taught them (and all “three” religious groupings actually worship the same deity), they can be deadly.

On genocide (providing the followers of their God are doing it):

1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. (Deuteronomy 7:1-5)

Smite them? Utterly destroy? Sounds like genocide to me. Destroy their altars? Cut down their groves? Sounds like what the Taliban did to those Buddhist statues a few years back.

Peace? Brotherhood? Family values? Although obviously the Jewish people do not accept the New Testament by and large, the Christians worship Jesus as the incarnation of their deity, and the Muslim revere him as a prophet second only to Mohammed. This is what our Christian friends think about peace and family values:

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. (Matthew 10: 34-37)

Those who think that dealing with these problems is simply to ignore them, or to not fight because there can’t be a fight if only one side attacks (?!?), would do well to remember this from J.R.R. Tolkien:

“It needs but one foe to breed a war, not two, Master Warden, and those who have not swords can still die upon them.” – Eowyn in _The Return of the King_

I don’t know anyone killed or injured on 9/11, but I do know someone who has received death threats on a daily basis, and whose clinic has been firebombed, not by Muslims, but “pro-life” Christians. I live in the US- It’s not Muslims that I see with politicians, large fortunes, and their own cable network at their disposal. When it comes right down to it, I’d rather face off against a man with a pipe bomb than one with a dozen senators in his pocket.

But mostly we’re concerned BECAUSE of what we’ve seen happen to the Muslims. There was once a point where the Islamic world was a leading force for science, art, and intellectual achievements. Now look at Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Taliban- this is what happens when you let people like the NAR take over. If you doubt that, I encourage you to research Colonial law and see just what kind of society we were when we WERE a Christian country: Churches supported by taxes, women not allowed to go outside without their heads covered, executions for homosexuality and witchcraft. Sound familiar?

I don’t buy the “Our extremists are better than their extremists” line. It’s the same mindset. If they take over, they’ll be no better.

Could someone please post a link where as to purchase a Columbia statue? I know I have seen one from a Museum…

Thanks!

Exactly my point. The poster seems to think magic users have some sort of superiority over Christians. That’s not going to matter much if laws or violence against non-Christians happens.

The US Capitol Historical Society sells some at v reasonable rates

Here’s a link. http://www.uschscatalog.org/Prod-31-1-46-91/Marble_Statue_of_Freedom.htm

Chas Clifton reminded me of this resource a few months ago when this story came to light.

It’s not surprising that this is happening. The extremism in Christianity is scary and real. It’s also why we and most other Pagans we know own guns — for self-protection. We know we can’t win if they come for us, but we’ll sure take a few of them with us.

THIS is the creeping Sharia Law that has me worried. Muslims have no chance of instituting their religious law over us in the US, but right-wing Xtians succeed in spreading their hate almost every day.

Wait…did they proposition us for sex during “Red Week”. I’m confused and need an adult.

Thanks! Just ordered one. Nice to know that the white ones are made from some of the actual marble used to construct the Capitol building. Should make it an *excellent* energy focus.

“Alright, now show us on the Constitution where the pastor touched you…”

Meh. Not worried about their “prayer” as it goes directly against their other concept of “free will” which was supposedly given to all by their “God”. Such conflicting concepts cancel each other out.

“You’re cursing me!”
“No, you’re cursing me!”

With the amount of blood being slopped around, is this Christianity or a vampire cult?

I’m sure Jesus would be utterly thrilled to know that his blood is now being used as a magical spell against “evil.” Because that’s what it is, really: a magic spell.

If the god that they are invoking does not agree with their actions, what happens then?

I’ve had one for 2 years now and let me tell you, the statue is beautiful!

Yeah I admit I was cringing a little at all this blood-covered stuff. I’m no fluffy, but that stuff’s a bit dark for my tastes.

They’re going to release blood-covered love? Are they going to pay for my BPAL order after to get rid of the smell? XD

In all seriousness though these are a scary scary group of people.

Several comments:

I’d not understood the concept of invoking Columbia before, so thank you for clarifying. I am all for the separation of religion and government, including my religion, so previously, I really wasn’t in favor of calling upon Columbia… I’d thought it was for having a Goddess “in charge” rather than the Christian God. Yet I am all in favor of “mak(ing) daily devotions to the Goddess Columbia and… pray(ing) to Her to help this country preserve its foundational commitment to religious liberty”. That is a fine, worthy goal. So, thank you for making that point clear.

Some points about the NAR… all the “blood” comments are pretty disgusting, as other readers have noted. Part of their religion, sure, but not something I aspire to.

However, is their prayer really that bad? They want light — light is fine, makes plants grow. I like darkness and sleeping too, but light is great.

It’s very sad that they believe we are “cursing” them. How is prayer for religious liberty a negative thing? We might consider that as the basis for their fear… they feel they are being cursed, rather than us asking our Deity for things that are positive for us.

Yet we have to look at the TRUE meaning of the prayer, what they are actually asking for. They might consider that they’re asking their God for something desirable for only themselves, yet I view it as requesting good things for everyone. Our Gods are listening too. I am perfectly content with prayer for “revelation (that) will dismantle and refute all arguments, theories, reasonings, and every proud and lofty thing that sets itself up against the true knowledge of God”. That is a valuable condition. I’d really like to have truth revealed that shows genuine knowledge of God.

Truth and enlightenment is a great thing. And, well, the NAR might be surprised when that true revelation is shown!

My son Bran just made a very salient comment… “Christ represents some of the Americans… Columbia represents ALL Americans.”

“We release perfect Blood-covered love into the core of your being!”

Dude. How and where do we even begin unpacking this statement?

It is not either or.

Remember that Christianity started out as a small minority, and many historians estimate that they were still no more than 10% or possibly 20% of the population when Constantine became Emperor. Also, Christians and Muslims have a long history of working together against their common enemies (us!).

One of the events that really catalyzed this whole Christian obsession with Columbia was the opening of the Capitol Visitor’s Center in 2009. Prior to its opening, Christian groups complained loudly about the fact that the official exhibits at the Center made little or no mention of the religion or “God”. Eventually a compromise was reached before the official opening in Jan. ’09, but I think the thing that really upset the Christians was the HUGE PAGAN IDOL that dominates the interior of the Center.

“Because of their [Pagans'] actions toward us, we have legal spiritual access and we take it!”

This is one of two peculiar phrases in their spell — and it is a spell; they address a few lines to the god and the rest to us. This phrase suggests that they have effective (“legal?”) access to us only because we responded to their plans. It sounds a lot more Pagan than Christian, in the sense of exploiting a link to a spell subject that the subject has provided. A Christian generally doesn’t rely on anything like this when praying for someone.

“[...T]here is no DC40 Prayer War. It is finished [....]”

This sounds like the upcoming prayer vigils in the various states and the final blowout in DC are facades for real Work in their Inner Court, and that this is already done. Again, not the usual description of a Christian prayer rally, in which the effective prayer arises from the mass of the faithful, albeit expressed by a worship leader. It’s as though they follow a Ceremonial Magic model.

Their blood imagery is a bit off, too. This is not alien to Christianity but it’s usually not as crafted. They describe the blood as if they were manipulating it to their purposes, not the usual imagery of the Blood of the Lamb being shed for or on one. It’s rather alchemical.

I’m sure the DC40 leaders sincerely believe themselves to be Christian but their language suggests a rather medieval Christianity.

Yeah, sounds like primitive biological warfare.

For those of us on a budget, there are hundreds of Columbia images online. For Independence Day, we at Magickal Media found one thru “Google Images” and posted it on our website. They’re easy to find. Make her your wallpaper!

For those of us who like antiques, Columbia is on the back of many nineteenth-century American coins, and as advertising on old-time products. Columbia appeared on older school books, with her eagle and cornucopia.

Yet let us remember that we only need the image for focusing our magickal energies. We can see Columbia in any strong woman, and in our own ideals for our nation.

The NAR follows the teachings of Jesus very faithfully. Jesus taught that his was the only way. Period. In fact, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me,” is one of the most often repeated quotes from Jesus. He also taught that those who do not follow his teachings are condemned. There is simply no basis for the idea that Jesus taught anything that could be (mis)construed as religious tolerance. Jesus even promoted religious strife within his own religion, which was Judaism.

I still think their obsession with blood is kind of creepy.

And really, how is praying that the arguments are invalid make them invalid? It doesn’t make any sense!

So creepy!

It does if you pray hard enough! >8)

I wish I was in New Jersey (“The Watchmen State”) so I could show up at their prayer thing in a Rorschach costume.

*Shamble,shamble* Soulsss….soulsss…

It’s things like this that keep me working for the protest our group, “Liberty Lives in the HEARTland”, will be performing. People need to be made aware of the fringe elements of society, and have positive, diversity-affirming options presented.

“We release perfect Blood-covered love into the core of your being!”………….these are some sick bastards!

I’m with you, Baruch. This isn’t Christianity at all – it’s something that is decidedly malevolent. And that is absolutely a spell, not a prayer. I still don’t believe for a moment that they’ll get any real support from the general public and that they’re headed for laughing stock notoriety. So, perhaps we should go the way of Harry Potter and point our wands at them : “Riddikulus!”

Christianity and Islam are two sides of the same ugly coin. Muslims are many decades, and probably centuries, awa from being able to establish a theocracy in this country. The possibility of a Christian theocracy is one election cycle away.

Wonder if it makes them drool? Hee hee.

They’re so convinced of the righteous of their privilege that they view disagreeing with them as oppressive & evil. Also, they’re projecting their own methods onto us.

And WTF is “blood-covered light?” Eew. “Honey, put the tarps down, the Christians are coming!” “Those messy bastards!”
I’m no pacifist; when it’s clear that someone wants me to *not* exist, I take that into account in my dealings with them. I follow a Celtic path & we fight back with no apologies.
It seems automatic: once someone says “I have One God,” the next step becomes “There IS only ONE God.” If I had such a constipated view of The Sacred I’d probably be a hateful terrified asshat too.

Requesting a link to the actual web presence of NAR and DC40. Have tried many of the links here on The Wild Hunt, and Googled the topic… am mostly finding refutations by Pagans and other Christians. Several entries by TWH. One quote from, for pity’s sake, Al-Jazeera. Not finding any reliable information about the actual words, schedule of events, etc. of the NAR.

I’ve found one FB page and a half-started website for the two Christian organizations who founded DC40, links above, and a typewritten page with their response as listed above… but no actual “New Apostolic Reformation” website with a mission statement, list of sponsoring organizations, etc. No address of a brick-and-mortar building. No phone number. No real web presence.

Soooo, I have to wonder if this is a tempest in a teapot, or if I’m having a “visually impaired moment” when trying to research this topic on the Internet. Any help you can offer is appreciated.

DC40: http://www.dc40.net/

Resource directory for the NAR: http://www.talk2action.org/story/2010/1/20/131544/037

Thank you, Jason.

Cindy Jacobs: http://www.generals.org/

To be fair the “I am the Way” is always quoted completely out of context. If one reads the rest of the that passage, you will come to see that what Jesus is really says is that we should all live our lives like he did. In saying “I am the Way” what he is saying is that his life is the example that we should strive for. While I don’t always agree with his example, it is still much less hostile message then the out of context quote makes it appear.

http://www.dc40.net/

My state, Washington, is “the Whirlwind State”. Are they going to have some sort of event at the state capitols or something? Maybe we can set up protests supporting religious freedom.

The heresy-hunting mentality is so deeply ingrained in the Christian psyche that liberal Christians cannot resist making the accusation that right-wing Christians are not following the “true” teachings of Jesus, for they assume, as Christians always have, that their own (and very arbitrary) interpretation of Christianity is the one true way.

I can’t speak to why the Ghost Dance did or didn’t work; I don’t know enough about it. I can’t presume to judge whether or not it worked.

If you think that magic alone without action will protect Pagans’ rights, then I believe you are sorely mistaken.

If we are not going to network and/or work to meet threats that face us, if we are not going to speak out and give the magic and energy and allies a way to work through us, through them, etc., then why do it?

The magic does not stop at the edge of a circle or the end of drumming. It continues into manifestation through our words, our actions, and through what ways it can channel through others. What is true for a job spell or a love spell (can’t get/find either if you don’t go for the interview or go on a date) is just as true for protection and negation of this affront. Hel, the spell may work splendidly but not in an overt way you recognize.

Our bodies, our voices, our spirits, all are holy and contain the magic able to make the change we seek. If we are actually going to make this stick, we cannot be silent as much as we cannot let this stand. We can be more powerful than Christians if we allow ourselves to be.

That was an oops, please delete.

‘We release perfect Blood-covered love into the core of your being!’

If that isn’t a messed up euphemism for anal sex, I don’t know what is.

Oh and from such godly people too! Shameful!

Actually, “Blood Covered Love” sound like it could be a catchy little vampire love song.

Actually, I know precisely what I’m doing. And it may soon involve Heathen boots of @$$kicking bringing the doom.

Wow, and what happened to religious freedom?? Pagan or christian or any other faith, don’t you think after years and years of fighting and bloodshed, wouldn’t it be wonderful to just accept one another and live in peace! Everyone always says they pray for peace..well the first step is to actually live with peace in your heart, not hate! These groups have no idea what love and peace truly are,, its braining washing on the highest level.

Kenneth, you are right about them being the same coin.The more I look at it, the more I keep flashing back to American Gods and the two man con.

I think the God of Abraham is playing us. “Looky, Christians are taking over!” -slips in the Muslims.- “Oh looky, Muslims are taking over!” -ramps up the Christians.-

The end result if we fail to look at both and stop both, (no matter how unlikely some thing Islam is to take over) is that YHVH wins and gets is one way and the rest are wiped out.

The 3D Paperweight version of Columbia, if you are willing to be a little untraditional, is actually pretty nice too & a little less spendy.

http://www.uschscatalog.org/Prod-31-1-768-91/3-D_Crystal_Statue_of_Freedom_Paperweight.htm

Here’s a repost of some numbers i found and worked out that Kristi and others out they may find interesting

Yes, Muslims are a minority in the US, true. But just because they are a minority doesn’t mean they are small or powerless.

According to one article i found, there are roughly 600,000 Muslims in New York City alone. link for convenience.
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_...

Now, according to a Pew Poll (which I am aware some people have issues with their poll taking) 5% of Muslims in America are favorable to Al Qaeda. (2% very, 3% somewhat.)

It also estimates that there are 1.8 million adult Muslims, and an estimate of 2.7 million Muslims total in the US.

http://www.islamist-watch.org/...

Last i checked, I don’t think there were even a fraction of that number of Pagans in the US.

However, the point I’m driving at is lets say that Pew exaggerated the numbers and there’s only about 2% of Muslims who support Al Qaeda in the US, either extremely or willingly. What do these numbers tell us?

That roughly 12,000 Muslims in New York City alone believe Al Qaeda is doing the right thing. that 54,000 Muslims in the US alone believe that Al Qaeda is in the right.

Again, I am not sure that the total population of Pagans in the US comes close to those numbers, but it’s been a while since that data was posted, if anyone has it, I would love to see our population numbers.

Now, for the sake of argument, let’s say that only 1/1000 of those who believe that Al Qaeda is in the right among US Muslims is actually willing to go out and do anything for those beliefs. that means that roughly 12 Muslims in New York City, and roughly 54 Muslims in the US are willing to go out and kill in the name of Islam.

Not much right?

So let’s say that our police and FBI are really good, and they have a 90% detection rate. that still means that one in ten is likely to get through and pull something. So, we’ve got roughly 1 terrorist in New York, and 5 in the US.

Again, not much.

However, let us look at what a lone or pair of individuals can do.

Columbine in 1999, two untrained youths arms with guns killed 13 people, injuring another 24.

Brekivik, the Berserker, with limited training, killed around 70 people, wounding others.

The Oklahoma City Bombing, one man with a truck of explosives killed 168 people, injuring a further 680.The blast destroyed or damaged 324 buildings within a sixteen-block radius, destroyed or burned 86 cars, and shattered glass in 258 nearby buildings.[3][4] The bomb was estimated to have caused at least $652 million worth of damage.[5] (according to wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O...

We all know the stats on 9/11, which was done by 19 men. I think less than 12 terrorists were in the New York Planes.

One man can do a lot.

Now then, what if I’m wrong in my numbers. what if it isn’t 1/1000 that’s willing, but 1/100. Or what if there’s a group protesting, and that 1/1000 goes out and incites them into a mob? Suddenly, the numbers grow.

Or what if the populations themselves grow? According to USA Today http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O... Muslim populations are among the fastest growing due to birth rates and conversions. By the year 2030 Muslims could number about 2.2 Billion and equal 26.4% of the world population. As of 2010, they numbered 1.6 Billion and were 23.4% of the worlds population.

Let us turn again to the math. For the sake of argument, we will say that world wide, only 2% of muslims feel that Al Qaeda and groups like it are in the right. (I know this number to be blatantly, low, but lets run with it).

2% of 1.6 billion = 32,000,000

That’s a higher number than the populations of most countries. And that number isn’t even close to the reality. The reality is close to 40-60% of Muslim populations over in the Middle East, Africa, and Europe. Roughly 640,000,000 – 960,000,000 Muslims feel that Al Qaeda and groups like it are in the right.

Which means that even if 1 in a Million of those Muslims who believe this decides to actively join the cause of Islamic Extremism, you’re looking at between 640-960 willing, able, fanatically people who are happy to kill the infidel, or at least fund and aid those who do. and it’s likely to be higher than just one in a million. Even if it’s just 1 in a Thousand you’re looking at 640,000-960,000.

I don’t see the Christians putting out those kinds of numbers in the US or Globally. So yeah, I’m going to be watching both groups carefully.

And Baruch, those millions who aren’t are enemies? I just showed you the potential millions that already are. Forgive me if i’m not worried about ticking off a few more in the face of those already there. Go for diplomacy, I’ll support you, but realize:

It only take one to kill hundreds. And they have millions already.

here’s the USA Today link. my pc goofed and put the OK city boming twice: http://www.usatoday.com/news/r...

…..you know….after seeing Kirk Cameron and his side kick, I thought I had seen it all regarding the blind stupidity of some of those who would call themselves christians. I’m Asatru and have many christian friends who would read this and be appauled. Instead of worrying about religious diversity, shouldn’t we be trying to help our fellow humans! We are all brothers and sisters despite which god we pray to. Our children all have to grow up with the same heart aches and wants (basically), people of all faiths are broke now and wondering how they are going to pay for their next meals, diapers, formula, rent, other bills. Shouldn’t these “Christians” be feeding poor people or some such good deed that normal christians lead me to believe is the right thing to do. This is the modern age, to fight over something like this now in this time is not only trivial, but anti productive. ……jerks….

HAIL ODIN!

Who does the Master swords man fear most in combat? The novice who has never held a blade.

It doesn’t matter if they are untrained. There’s a lot of them. and a club works just as good as a sniper’s bullet to kill someone. Underestimating the power of a fanatical mind with a single focus in spiritual workings is often the last mistake made by that fanaticism’s target.

I don’t like those Coexist stickers because A) most other symbols are Abrahamic, and B) MY SYMBOLS ARE NEVER ON THERE!

I refuse to coexist with people who won’t even acknowledge my existence.

If they can play in the blood I guess they can play in the mud….

There is a website called http://hailcolumbia.us where some people are working to coordinate a response.

I live in “The State of Breaking the Drought” (aka Colorado) and I think that based on what I have seen they DO plan on having events at ALL the state capitols.

I will be at my state capital building on the date they have Colorado at point and am hoping that others show up to support religious freedoms.

With rubber gloves and HAZMAT suits in a pressurized, quarantined facility?

If you think their god believes in free will, I have some real estate to sell you.

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all about giving up one’s free will to serve that foul god. Islam itself means Submission. It’s all about making slaves for that deity.

I would use latex gloves.

The very phrase conjures to my mind a type of spiritual rape.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LightIsNotGood

Actually, Light can be a very bad thing.

Jim Butcher explained it best when talking about the Summer Court. “All that rampant growth, without death, sounds real good, especially if you’re an Ebola virus.”

The fact is that Light is often as bad as the Dark.

Actually, it’s sounds like bad poetry about taking a girl’s virginity.

Just a word of caution for those who take seriously the vitriol and malevolence of prayer sorcery: I tweeted about this post, and was nearly IMMEDIATELY followed by an Apostolic news account.

Because I have first-hand experience with being targeted by “prayer warriors”, I immediately blocked them. While I am well-versed in spiritual protections, and have my own regular related routine the very last thing I want is for my specific name to be on any “Prayer List” by this type of group. Make no mistake…it will MESS you up if you are unprepared! Just take a look through a book like Draja Mickaharic’s “Magical Spells of the Minor Prophets” for the types of Biblical curses that get prayed down on people on a regular basis.

I was probably too late, and my name already recorded and passed along. But I thought I would just let others know how closely the social media is being monitored by these groups. Mention them, and you’ll be noticed!

I have relatives who are in that scene, and I grew up in the type of church where this NAP-type prayer campaigns are common place. So, that’s why I take this so seriously. I’ve been there!

Just because I’m paranoid doesn’t mean that no one’s out to get me!

Well, this is Christianity. Real Christianity. and I think you’d be better off pointing your wand and screaming “Avada Kadavera!”.

may I request of you to pull up the full quote? having the full context of it would be great for talking to a few zealous people I know.

if by blood covered love they mean a seared, almost still twitching, rare steak… I’d drool.. but then again I’m unabashedly carnivorous..

Goth or EMO band name as well

This sickens me, seriously. I just feel that humanity should be past all of this already, you know?

“Forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

Maybe. Maybe.

But even if I do not know what I am doing, I’m still going forwards. There are some out there that have issues with my path. The Tribalism, the emphasis on Blood and Soil. The violence. The emphasis on power. But, these are my ways. They are the ways of my ancestors. They are the ways of Asgard, Midgard, and Helheim, and the rest of the Nine Worlds.

“find that compromise is not the way”

Here, I think I agree. With the God of Abraham, there is no compromise. So let there be no more compromise with any of them. No more concessions. No more tolerance. Not from us.

They want spiritual warfare. Then I say we give it to them. Already I believe it to be happening. The very earth trembles and storms as the Gods and Goddesses awaken to the call of their children.

“You see, there is no DC40 Prayer War. It is finished, you just haven’t come to the truth of it yet. However, if you are reading this, it is too late – we release the arrow of blood-covered truth and convicting power of Holy Spirit into the core of your being, and release grace for you to SEE in Jesus’ Mighty Name!”

They are right. The war is finished. Because it ended the day those who will heed my call and stand up with me and those like me stood up and screamed our rage and power mock them. If they have shot their arrow of truth and power into my heart, than it has been consumed and devoured by real power. For I have tasted their grace and spat it upon the ground. Because arrows covered in their blood and power can never equal the power of our blood.

“We don’t hate you, we love you – you were created by the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob for greatness. “

We were not created by their god. We were created by our Gods and Goddesses. And it is their greatness that we shall bring forth.

So I call to you, Brothers and Sisters, Heathens and Pagans, rise now! Let us show them what true Spiritual Warfare looks like!

By Thor, Protector of Midgard!

By Odin, God of Frenzy!

By Freyja, Goddess of Battle!

By Hel, Goddess of Death!

By all the Gods and Goddesses, Rise up with your prayers and workings and show these Christians and Muslims and all the other Abrahamic what true power and faith really are!

“There was once a point where the Islamic world was a leading force for science, art, and intellectual achievements. Now look at Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Taliban- this is what happens when you let people like the NAR take over.”

Ah, thank you for bringing this up, it gets glossed over frequently.

“I don’t buy the “Our extremists are better than their extremists” line. It’s the same mindset. If they take over, they’ll be no better. ‘

A phrase you might like is “The lesser of two evils.. is still evil.”

Is it just me or does anyone else see a strong resemblance between the NAR’s ideas,Nazism and Stalin’s version of Communism??

Actually having read the texts I know that the supposition is that their Deity “Does” believe in free will, even if it will condemn a “soul” to “torment” for refusing to abide by it’s rules. Coercion is an ugly practice but it is an attempt to sway free will, not creating an automaton that only follows programming.
Their concepts are NOT about giving up one’s free will, they are about following those scriptures willingly in order to please their Deity.
While I do not like nor agree with their beliefs, I have read enough about them(not to mention the fact that I was actually raised with those beliefs until I decided to walk away from them) to not attempt to slander them as they often slander “us”.

And Mao’s Communism, and Iran’s, Muslim Brotherhood, OIC, and many other’s form of Islam as well.

Err, this “response” is a joke, right? I mean, if this were a blog entry, we’d be saying “troll”, and wonder if this was fake, some idgit trying satire.
How dumb are these people?

“Father, […], Because of their actions toward us, we have legal spiritual access and we take it! We release perfect Blood-covered love into the core of your being!”
Legal spiritual access??? They need to be “legal” for spiritual access?

And whose being? At first I thought, their god’s, and he’s welcome to their blood-covered light, love, whatever. As for us – will they bother to check blood-types, or is that too scientific? Don’t tell me they mean that, or the “arrows”, in an abstract sense. They don’t know that expression. (Does the bible have blood-types?)
“We also pray that this revelation will dismantle and refute all arguments, theories, reasonings, and every proud and lofty thing […]” – sure, this is what they hate – argument, theory, reasoning, proud and lofty things – because they don’t understand this.

I don’t think they can harm Columbia, though this does not mean we shouldn’t rally round her. The problem is – they can harm us, and a lot more people. Dumb, self-righteous and powerful is not good.

Is there a kind and curing God/Goddess for very dumb people, who can help them? Some spiritual haven we can offer?

But, but, I thought pagan gods weren’t real. The only real god is the God of the Bible, and pagan gods are fictional characters like Batman or Mickey Mouse or something, so what are they so afraid of?

One can see how that could’ve honked them off.

The context of John 14:6 is that Jesus has just (in John 13) predicted his own execution, but then he also predicts his return from death (not his resurrection, but the Second Coming), and then he promises that he will (eventually) take his followers to heaven, so long as they follow him. But good old doubting Thomas then points out the obvious by saying that none of them know where Jesus is “going”, so how can they “follow” him? Then comes John 14:6. Basically the rest of John 14 is just a harangue by Jesus insisting that everyone must accept his teaching and follow him blindly because “I am in the Father and the Father is in me.”

“23 Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.”

Jesus makes it simple: Anyone who is against me is against God, so: love me, follow me, obey me, or literally go to Hell. End of story.

Here’s all of John 14 online: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14&version=NIV. That site is also very easy to navigate to different parts of the Bible, and also to look at variant translations.

Thanks. Although actually, I don’t believe that either is LESS evil than the other. They’re just at different points in different environments.

People whose entire morality is defined by divine authority, rather than ethical principle, can easily be manipulated into committing atrocities by anyone who can convince them that they speak for that authority.

I’m wondering… If they want attention so badly perhaps we should give it to them. What if we called the local news stations of the various capitals and said ‘There’s this crazy Christian cult who’s holding a prayer vigil to overturn American democracy in favor of complete Biblical law”.

But at the same time, I don’t want to give them more opportunities to spread their vitriolic hate.

“I have a zombie, so your arguments are invalid.”

^ It’s kinda like that.

John 14:6

That’s so creepy.

People confuse “free will” with “freedom”. Freedom inherently implies the ability to create your own options. Free will merely implies a choice between the options given.

“Your money or your life”, “Vote to re-elect the leader or we kill your family”, and “Go pick me some cotton or I’ll have you whipped” are all choices, but none of them have anything to do with being free.

They really need to stop watching hentai.

Merofled wrote:
Is there a kind and curing God/Goddess for very dumb people, who can help them?

Unfortunately, the Gods must love stupid people, They made so very many of them.

One of the great things about the D.F. universe is that it highlights how both ends are equal degrees of not good.

True, but the Biblical concept that I was speaking about is/was “free will”, not freedom. Freedom includes the ability to make choices, certainly, but it also implies that such choices do not come with negative consequences inherently attached and designed to influence those choices, we all realize that choices and the actions resulting of those choices have consequences(both good and bad) but coercion(such as the examples you cited) is most definitely not freedom.

Um, I don’t think this VERSION of Christianity is any more or less “real” than any of the other versions but the actions and words of this group of “Christians” is far more Talibanesque than other Christian groups.

Cancer agrees.

much obliged

NAR, if you send out nothing but pure love into the Universe and we do the same, there won’t be a problem, will there?

But you can’t declare those who do not think like you the “enemies of God” and “unrighteous” and “illegal” and pray against them and their ideas and declare at the same time that you love them unconditionally and intend them no harm.

The Universe will be able to tell the difference. Karma’s a bitch.

Oi vey, he sounds even more desperate to keep people under his control & blind than I remember from my youth.

Would somebody please let Eris know that She’s made quite enough Christians thank you very much.

Ok, that did make me LOL.

She is lovely, isn’t she? She’s on my altar and I find something new and lovely each time that I look at her.

I’m laughing over Iowa still having the “The Corn State” in its title.

As long as the lesbians of Ottawa, Canada are okay, I don’t think Jesus’ll really care if they were vampires.

I wonder how Ohio got to be “The State that Swings the Sword.” Swings the hoe is more like it.

What are you referring to? Not trying to be an ass, I just haven’t heard anything about Ottawa lesbians- or vampires.

Well you cursed me FIRST!!!

I heard a joke like that once: “Professionals are predictable, it’s the amateurs that are dangerous!”

That’s it! Thanks!

Weeeeelll, I wrote to Cindy Jacobs and John Benefiel, lets see if they answer my questions.

The Ghost Dance did not fail. Those who go down fighting will rise again. Those who submit meekly are gone forever. (That’s a paraphrase from Winston Churchill.)

Gods above and below this worries me. This isn’t a joke. They actually believe this. They’re going to basically spew poison at us. Am I the only one worried about the possible ramifications of this? Lets not forget Christianity nearly wiped us out in the Dark Ages and here they are attempting to influence the government again to attempt another wipe out.

Extra thought on the subject:

Arguing over whether or not people are “real” Christians is silly, because then you get caught into arguing jerks aren’t Christian because they’re not sweet and sweet people aren’t Christian because they’re not jerks, and then it gets into an argument about whether or not they should start properly representing, which is silly, because the world is horrible at following rules properly, and all this consumes too much energy to be practical.

The important thing is that they perfectly represent dickweeds. You don’t have to renounce your faith to belong to that following. It’s totally nondenominational, spanning continents and cultures, and, wow, is it charismatic. It’s a cult that lures you win with a false sense of power that grows itself through circular logic.

“Wow, DC40 is a big group of jerkwads with oddly-phrased curses.” Should they be jerkwads? Well, no, and not because it’s not properly Christian, whatever that means, but because jerkwads make life unbearable. Is there crossover? Oh yeah. Is there a world of background to encourage this? Yeah, totally. But that’s for another discussion.

I just tried to access the DC40.net site from work but the site was block as porn.
Thank Jason for all the great new reporting you provide. Keep up the great work

It’s this brand of christianity that is discussed as what people take issue with in the documentary “Lord Save Me from Your Followers.” It tells us of the problems with this brand of christianity and how we can combat this negative branch and image with true Christ-like love, passion, and humility. Even people who are not christian can take something from this and learn from it. It was quite eye-opening for myself.

There is also this lovely painting by KY Craft. Technically, it’s Lady Liberty — not Columbia — but I still find it incredibly inspirational. I have it up as my wallpaper right now.

http://www.kycraft.com/detail_pages/liberty.html

You kind of sound like one of them, “Their out to get us! Quick get the pitchforks and torches!”

The hate that my fellow pagans and polytheists expouse against Muslims and Christians is really disgusting, it is a affront to what we strive for: religious equality and respect for ALL of the gods and their worshippers. By no means do we have to give quarter when they ask for our faith and flesh but really they are not all out to get us. Islamism has in much of the Middle East been tempered by the secular regimes of the Arab World, the Muslim Brotherhood though powerful is much different then it was 40 years ago and by no means as popular given those who lead the revolution in Egypt were the young, western leaning youth. Their faith in their god is inspiring at times, something we should learn and respect as much as we strive to get everyone else to learn and respect of our ways.

Unless they come up with better weapons, they’ll just fall down again.

Please don’t do this. Don’t let Phobos take hold of you, your playing into the lies created by the Demagogues of the Far Christian Right by believing Muslims are actually a threat to the US. Such scenarios that harken to ‘Eurarabia’ are bunk because it focuses on numbers and not really the individuals or the forces that make up the identity and personality of someone. Many of us were Christians before becoming Pagans and Polytheists, and I have fear that many of us continue in the mindset of fear of the ‘other’.

The saving grace of the United States is that we are not a ethnically defined nation-state, thankfully to our great Founding Fathers who saw fit to give Freedom, Liberty, and Opportunity TO ANYONE OF ANY RELIGION who came to our shores, anyone can be an American. In much of the world citizenship and identity is founded on the principal of blood, namely you belong to a ethnic group, Britons in England, Germans in Germany, Arabs in Saudi Arabia, Han Chinese in China, and etc. Here though we do not put that kind of pressure, we give people the room to define themselves satisfactory, and you know what they do witht hat opportunity? They live their lives in peace with their fellow Americans. We accept them and they accept us in our shared oath to uphold the Consitution, thus ‘they’ are us.

…Well, it’s not safe to assume we’re *not*, given their willful negation of our rights if they get into office.

Thank you. Here is hoping they respond.

Ironic, considering.

Thanks! I just ordered one. I hope we buy them out!!

Actually, I kinda like it. Not the Xtian curse, but blood & love together. Not all blood is from wounds.

Anyone who tries to force others to be subject to their religious laws or god is a threat to a free society.

That is one fine piece of writing.

Why is it every single time there’s a post on here getting the word out about radical right-wing Christians who want a literal theocracy, someone has to derail it with “but what about the Muslims! Jihad! Jihad!” It’s more than a little frustrating.

Can we not discuss the danger of the first without some kind of bizarre “who’s the biggest scariest terrorist” competition?

This is the kind of Christianity that the anti-choice movement have been spouting for some time. There’s a rabidly anti-choice family in my neighborhood that has a van with anti-abortion sloganeering all over it and a drawn pair of bloody hands with an all-caps line about the blood of Christ. I wish I could remember the line because it was the same kind of blood-warrior language and I thought it was one of the creepiest things I’d ever seen.

In the words of Master Yoda, “Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

I sense much fear in them.

Actually, I think it would be a good idea. Most people would laugh at their “prayer” efforts but they might want to start keeping tabs on them. The violent imagery they use in their prayer would convince most rational people that they are a possible physical threat. What happens when the “prayer” doesn’t work? Speaking of, has anyone thought to contact the Southern Poverty Law Center about this group? Anti-Pagan, anti-Catholic, anti-gay… They seem to fit the bill.

I am actually curious about this expression “blood-covered”. It sounds like a ritualized expression with a very specific significance to the ones using it, but it is a significance lost on me because I don’t know where it comes from. I do know that blood carries a lot of symbolic meaning in Christianity (as in most religions/mythologies), but I’m curious to understand how it is being used here in this context.

“I keep flashing back to American Gods and the two man con.”

Was that one “Let’s You and Him Fight”?

My guess is that all this reference to blood comes from the “blood of the lamb” mentioned in the Book of Revelation. If you haven’t read it, I’d recommend it just for the sake of gaining familiarity with the symbolism the NAR folks are using (as well as, for instance, the artwork on a lot of medieval churches). Be warned, though: the Book of Revelation is like a bad acid trip. I’ve often wondered what sorts of plants John was eating on Patmos.

I took as “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” According to Christians, the blood of Jesus is equated with the love of God. Also, something that is “blood-covered” — that is, under the blood of Jesus, so to speak — is holy, pure, and righteous.

Jesus is “the sacrificial lamb” of the New Testament; in the Old Testament, the blood of a sacrificed lamb sprinkled on the doorframes of the Jews protected them from God’s curse of death to the Egyptians’ firstborn sons. The Jews were living as slaves in Egypt at the time, and the blood on the door showed God, as he went through Egypt killing children, which homes to spare.

The quote in the first paragraph is John 3:16 — and I still remember it from when I had to learn it for a Bible quiz contest about 35 years ago. The OT story is Exodus 12:1-13 (I had to look that one up).

Ugh… it’s been a long time since I’ve even THOUGHT about any of this stuff… you’ll pardon me while I go for a nice walk in Nature.

I got the state receiving god’s covenant.

I may have to plan a little something…

It was the big one, where Odin and Loki got all the old gods and new gods to fight so that Odin would be fed by war and Loki by Chaos.

Uh….it’s not lies. It’s a historically documented attitude and taken from videos of actual Imams and others who have this attitude. The Muslims are just as bad as the Christians about about wanting everyone to be their religion.

I’m all for religious freedom. But I refuse to let any monotheistic religion go unwatched when they all have a history of totalitarianism. They live in peace, fine. But already in articles and video from all around the world, they are starting to not live in peace.

It is not Phobos that speaks in my ear. It is Odin, who tells me to protect my kin by being ever watchful.

because its more of a team effort on they’re part?

In case you haven’t noticed, those “secular governments” in the Middle east are falling. Egypt, Lybia, Turkey, Iraq, and others, have all fallen or are in the process of falling either literally or figuratively into the hands of more radical Islamist.

As for the hate? I think a comment called Brat-Halla said it best about Monotheism. “If you don’t wanna play nice with the other Pantheons, you can go play by yourself.” They decided not to play nice. So don’t get huffy with Pagans that don’t want to let them play.

So willingly giving up ones free will out of love. Right….

Still sounds like giving up one’s free will.

So my choice is “Or death?”

Well, that’s not a very good choice at all, is it?

Or, as I they consider us the dark side, and I’m happy to run with it:

Peace is a lie, there is only Passion.
Through passion I gain strength.
Through strength I gain power.
Through power I gain victory.
And through victory my chains are broken.

The Book of Revelations is very important for understanding Christianity generally. It is actually a fairly typical example of the Jewish apocalyptic literature of the time.

The Book of Revelations is very important for understanding Christianity generally. It is actually a fairly typical example of the Jewish apocalyptic literature of the time.

Not at all. Choosing to follow is quite different. “Free Will” can’t be given up, only taken.

Well, for the first point, that is what the belief is whether you believe it or not is a different matter. Second point is that even though it’s a coercive choice, it IS still a choice. If such things aren’t your cup of tea then Christianity isn’t for you. I walked away from all that over 30 years ago and that was among the least of my reasons for leaving. I’m not going to play the “My religion is great and yours sucks” game here. I’ve known absolutely wonderful, non-judgmental people from ALL religions(and many with NO religion as well) and have known quite a number of jerks from ALL religions as well. Religions are nothing more than a vehicle, whether that vehicle takes you to your desired destination or drives you straight over a cliff is strictly left up to the “driver” and the only person driving the vehicle is the one who believes.

Yeah, “Let’s You and Him Fight” is out of “Games People Play” ca 1970.

If you look at the DC40 website (http://www.dc40.net/), the main graphic shows the US Capitol Building with a shining cross of pure brilliant light right where the statue “Freedom Triumphant in War and Peace” should be.

Thomas Crawford designed and created the statue between 1850 and 1863. Originally Crawford submitted a design (link) depicting Freedom wearing a toga, a crown of stars, and a “Phrygian cap”. Then Secretary of War Jefferson Davis (a Mississippi plantation owner later to be president of the Confederacy) objected to the “Phrygian cap”, which was commonly known as a “Liberty cap”, because it was worn in ancient Rome by freed slaves. Crawford significantly altered his original design, but the end result was if anything more subversive.

Both classical Paganism and Native American themes show up prominently in other works by Crawford, such as Orpheus and Cerberus, Paris Presenting the Golden Apple, Dying Indian Chief, and Mexican Girl Dying.

For more on Crawford and his famous statue, look here: http://picturinghistory.gc.cuny.edu/item.php?item_id=185

Also it’s problematic for outsiders to privilege the interpretation some scholars over others in outside religions. It’d be like if someone came in here and said, “Oh, well Silver Ravenwolf says x, so paganism is that, even though many pagans disagree with her.” If you don’t actually believe something to be true, there’s no reason to privilege one guy as having the “true interpretation” of nonsense over anyone else’s interpretation.

Saying, “Oh, well he’s not a real Christian” is in effect saying “I agree with this guy’s teachings about what a real Christian is.” It’s getting involved in a fight you don’t have a dog in.

There aren’t any Gods or Goddesses for the truly stupid people. The Gods want them eliminated by natural selection!

That whole bunch , NAR and thier ilk are stark raving nuts . Not to even mention their dislike of the Pagan community . What ever happened to the old Judeo/Xtian concept of ” Love Thy Nieghbor”. Those folks don’t even like other flavors of Xtians .Oh well like other extremist groups they pick and choose what part of thier holy book serves thier needs , not the entire text , not to even mention interpretation. So it goes. Kilm

You know Al-Jazeera’s actually pretty reliable. IIRC, in the West they generally hire reporters away from the BBC. They’re bankrolled by Jordan, one of the more Western-friendly countries in the Middle East.

I’d trust ‘em over FOX. Heck, any of the BBC guys they got beats CNN’s Piers Morgan any day!

Yes, this is exactly it!

(I’m kind of reminded of meat eaters arguing what about what vegetarians should and shouldn’t eat.)

Either way, it’s arguing for fundamentalism, and fundamentalism isn’t exactly known for making life pleasant.

why must we feel the need to place a name to our faith? futhermore, why must we identify in that faith at all? truly alliwng ourselves to accept a lable gives further reason to hate. thhe only similarities we have is that we are humans and we have the right to life! embrace ourselves and rejoice in the fact that we are a proud and functional world. Is that not what we need? lest we take genocide upon ourelves versus other ppl

Why do we need names? Because names have a power, power like nothing else. there is a big difference between me saying “I am Asatruar” and me giving along winded explanation about how I walk with the Norse/Scandinavian gods of the Vikings. With names comes details and knowledge about a thing, because eventually people come to know the name and what it means.

Do labels give cause to hate? No. Existing may give cause to hate. But the fact that I am Heathen, or Asatru, or what ever doesn’t draw the hate in this case. The fact that we are not like them, labeled or unlabeled, is the reason for their hate. All the Labels do is declare our pride in what we are, and let our allies know where we stand.

I’m disgusted by this DC 40 thing! Since when does the First Amendment only apply to Christians?? The Hail Columbia movement does not yet have an organizer in Wisconsin. Any fellow Wisconsinites out there who are interested in helping me organize a tolerance event?
As much as this total disregard for the 1st Amend. makes me upset, I agree with Hail Columbia that any counter-event must not be anti-Christian, but interfaith and supportive of tolerance, no matter what faith you choose (or what faith chooses you, as the case may be.)
Bright Blessings, one and all!

Have you seen the latest Gallup Poll? Muslim-Americans are more likely than any other religious group to decry violence against civilians (78% of muslims think it is never acceptable). Compare that to the protestant and catholic numbers – 38 and 39%, respectively, think violence against civilians is never justified. Isn’t that just a little bit worrying, in a land where Christians are the predominant religion?

I don’t know, made me think of kinky “that time of the month” sex. I know some people are into that but…

::shivers::

I think they started running out of ideas after awhile.

(Sigh!) This reminds me of a nagging suspicion planted by a teacher sort of 100 years ago when I attended high school. He said that the Greek Gods had created people for their own amusement. (He taught Latin and Greek, and archaeology, and he was a bit strange.)
Anyway (bypassing the more intellectual arguments this calls for), I guess that means we need to put up a good show. And by our Gods and Goddesses, we can do that!

Wow.
Law of Unintended Consequences says… Deity often gives you what you ask, and they seem to be asking for one heck of an accounting.
(stepping cautiously back from the potential for incoming impact crater)
Dear Lady, bless us with internal strength that we love each other as You love us, with understanding and compassion.

I’m in Ohio. If they think they’re going to go unchallenged here, they’re sadly mistaken.

Before you actually waste time giving Kristi a well reasoned and articulate answer, you might want to check “her” Twitter profile and her blog. Just sayin’.

Flame, I would actually call us the Serpent Mound State and watch the Serpent slap that Sword aside.

Indeed Baruch, there is something far older than the NAR here, and the energies at the Mound are strong and kept well fed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVuw1wEuaAQ&feature=related

Dilute the malevolence of their words and prayers thusly: replace ‘blood’ with ‘chocolate’. Injecting humor into the mix dilutes and neutralizes the darkness and incorporates compassion into the mix. “Chocolate-covered” love is much more reasonable, don’t you think?

“So my choice is ‘Or death?’”
Well, I’ll have the chicken then, please.

That statue is impressive. I may have to take a trip to DC soon.

I am quite happy those Secular Regimes are falling, they were Tyrants. Let a new wave of Democracy sweep across the Middle East hearalded by the secular AND religious youth of the Middle East.

I’d rather not trade one theocracy for another no matter the religion.

Your Mistake was citing Wikipedia and Islamist-Watch, obviously a Christian Right biased source.

I love reading this! Thank you all!
Sliante!

christ…cool., Ghandi… totally down wit that!, Buddha? ya bro I be hookin you up with this babe I know…. …. who are these fucktards?

It is a reference to the film “Jesus Christ Vampire Hunter.”

Here’s my contribution and response as well. Thanks for all your efforts Jason! http://theburrowmurmurs.net/2011/09/29/columbia-embattled/

Sounds like a nation wide cult group to me…. like Waco all over again!

“Blood covered truth”, “blood covered love…” If those are not threats, then I don’t know what is.

I sincerely hope to be at the DC event on 10/30.

Blessed Samhain, everyone!

Thank you for keeping an open mind and an open heart (very Christ-like behavior. Your compatriots could learn a lot from people like you!)

No need to be embarrassed. Just pity them. Your Truth is in your heart, and it is between you and God as you see Him.

Blessed be.

Actually, to me it sounds like rape. That is how the intent of this whole thing feels to me, to be perfectly blunt.

And we want “blood-covered love” and “blood-covered truth” because…why, again?

And for every community, there are the violent, nasty nutjobs. It doesn’t matter what flag the nutjob wants to fly, s/he will still be out to use anything in range as a club. If not the Qu’ran, then the Bible. If not those, then White Supremacy, the bad kind of Anarchism, or a demented self-made philosophy like the piece of work that shot Rep Giffords in January. The immediate threat in the US does not come from the politically marginal Muslim. In this country, they’re fortunate if their mosque is not firebombed or vandalized. Our greater threats are from the Bachmanns, the Santorums, the McVeighs, the clinic bombers.

“When Fascism comes to America, it will be draped in a flag and carrying a cross.”

Funny…..you don’t see pagans & wiccans trying to take over the country…….

Typical, shameless power play by the NAR, whose agenda is not about God at all…..it’s about them setting THEMSELVES up AS GODS over men……

I find it appalling that the few wish to rule the many, again…..and we let it by our choices. We, the people have given away our power and freedoms over and over to a fear-based society who’s God is not a living, loving, expression of the unconditional love and connection (agape) that is described over and over in the book of John and 1st Corinthians, Chapter 13, but is separate from themselves, as they call to “reach out to God from above”, not for the God that is within. This is a blatant denial of the Holy Spirit that is supposed to be the expression of the Divine within. It is up to the body politic and all people to co-create a society of peace, perfect love, and unconditional allowing to banish the real demon that plagues this country, Fear. This needs to be done by all in whatever form is relevant to them. Oh, and by the way, the founding fathers they call on were not Christians as they would like to portray, they were Deists. I learned this in grade school. I guess I was awake for that history lesson. It would appear that the lessons of Salem, Johnathan Edwards, the puritans, and others whose religion is that of fear at its heart are doomed to repeat that they have never learned. As is found in the book of James:”They have the form of religion, but deny the power thereof….” I’m not one for religion, but what we need as a people is a real sense of connection, via a living spirituality! Those of us who make our faith a way of daily being, regardless of what faith it is needs to lead by example!
Thus endeth the lesson……
Rev. Stan Morey II
a.k.a. Stormfyre

oh and another thing, if they have a problem with the Goddess, what are they going to do with all the Roman Catholics who pray to and call upon Mary and the female saints?
Rev. Stan MoreyII