5 Reasons Why I’m A Christian Who Stopped Supporting Israel

5 Reasons Why I’m A Christian Who Stopped Supporting Israel November 5, 2015

Gaza Bombing

Growing up conservative Evangelical, we loved Israel as much as we loved America– probably even more.

And why not, right?

We truly believed that among the world’s nations, God actually has a favorite– and that he will curse anyone who doesn’t blindly support his team.

When you sincerely believe that, there’s little room left for actually thinking, because anything you see is filtered and given meaning by the narrative we were given at church. This false narrative we’re told about Israel makes it almost impossible to see the situation fairly or clearly, because we become victims of confirmation bias– we’re only willing to consider evidence that verifies the narrative we were taught.

As an adult at seminary studying theology and international culture, I finally broke free from the confirmation bias that had caused me to support Israel and ignore Palestinian suffering. As such, I now see the Israel and Palestinian conflict in a completely different light– one where my Christian faith itself dictates that I cannot stand with Israel and still be faithful to Jesus.

Here are 5 reasons why I stopped supporting Israel:

5. I realized that loving Jewish people was completely different from supporting the modern, secular state of Israel.

Many quickly confuse loving Jewish people with supporting Israel– but a religion/people group and a secular nation state are not the same thing. For example, one can be opposed to US policy without being “anti-American.” In the same way, one can look at Israel and say, “Wow, this is absolutely wrong” without being anti-semitic (though that’s the first thing you’ll be accused of).

I love the Jewish people because as a Jesus follower, I love all people. But I do not– I cannot– support Israel as a nation, precisely because I love all people.

4. I realized Israel was a violent military occupation, much like the one Jesus lived under.

I used to think the Israel was a peaceful nation who just wanted to mind their own business but couldn’t because those darned Muslims wouldn’t leave them alone, but that’s not the case at all. Israel is a violent military occupation, with no end in sight.

Where Palestinians once lived in peace and security, they now live under military rule by a foreign military that controls nearly all aspects of their daily lives.  Their access to water is tightly restricted, their movement is restricted, and they are denied security in their homes by military forces who often stage middle-of-the-night raids under the accusation of “rock throwing.”

Furthermore, children are often Israeli targets and are imprisoned and tortured by Israeli solders. There have even been cases of Israeli soldiers shooting Palestinian children for sport. How a Christian can support this is literally unfathomable to me.

3. I realized Palestinians weren’t terrorists, but a frustrated people living under apartheid.

Imagine it this way: what if you woke up one morning and world leaders had given the Southern United States to Russia, to be a country for displaced Russians? The Russians arrive, kick you off the land that’s been in your family for generations, confiscate your homes and possessions, burn your farms, and put everyone into refugee camps or segregated into ghettos, which are then policed by the Russian military.

Would it not be understandable that once in a while you’d attack the Russian soldiers? In fact, if that were in America, most conservatives would call it self defense.

While I am against all violence, it’s important to understand why violence happens, and in this case it is quite understandable that such an oppressed people would resort to violence against the oppressors. However, this violence is not about Muslims hating Jews– it’s about people being tired of an occupying army taking their homes, their land, and harming their children. Truth be told, as wrong as I believe it is, I’d be tempted to throw a few rocks too.

2. I realized Israel continues to steal land and violate international law.

I once thought that Israel just wanted to peacefully exist, but the truth is they are on a violent conquest to take all the land they can get– even though it is a total violation of international law.

Day by day new Israeli settlements crop up on land that still belongs to Palestinians. Quite often the Israelis will burn down Palestinian crops  before harvest (this is in the news often), and try to take Palestinian land by terroristic force. Illegal settlers have firebombed Palestinian homes, most recently burning a baby and mother to death. Settlers recently even attacked a Rabbi who had previous work with Christian Peacemakers, showing they’re willing to not just attack Palestinians, but even their own peacemakers.

This reminds me of someone who once said, “Oh Jerusalem! You who kill the prophets and stone those God sends to you.” (That was Jesus, BTW.)

Until Israel stops violently and unapologetically violating international law by their conquest for more land, they could never have my support.

1. I realized Christians were being persecuted and oppressed, and I choose to stand with them.

One of the ways Evangelicalism continues selling support for Israel is by painting this as a Muslim vs Jew situation– but that’s not reality. This is a situation of a violent, secular nation state, who is oppressing a group of people that include Christians.

Palestinians include both Muslims and Christians, and Christians are being just as persecuted as the rest of Palestinians. Israel has targeted Christian schools while Christians in the West remained silent. Christian churches and institutions have a long history of being burned and vandalized by the Israelis. Furthermore, Christians have lamented that the Israelis spit on them as they walk down the street, with many Christians ultimately accepting that being spat on in Israel is part of daily life. (Can you imagine if it were the Muslims doing that? Conservative leaders would be calling for war.)

And this is perhaps the top reason why I no longer support Israel: to do so would be a complete betrayal of my Christian brothers and sisters who suffer under anti-Christian persecution in Israel.

So, your pastor growing up taught you to support Israel.

I get it. Mine did too. As a result, I blindly supported Israel for many years– even to the point of voting for candidates I thought would be the most pro-Israel.

But now that I have set aside my bias, and been willing to consider the facts as they are, I realize I can’t support Israel and still be faithful to Jesus.


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  • Marshall Sutton

    Bravely said, Benjamin. Anyone who would blindly support a modern nation instead of the people that live under it is not living the life of Christ.

    In point 4, you do make poor use of my name, however, for the kind of law the Palestinians live under.

  • JD

    Amen! I’ve had a brother who basically cut me out of his life because I dared to question the actions of Israel. The anti-semite label is one I’ve heard often, despite the fact that I’m simply calling for us to love both sides equally. It’s sad to see the worship of the state of Israel within the church.

  • Paul Schlitz

    I feel much more comfortable letting my Jewish brothers and sisters condemn the occupation of Israel. The blind support many U.S. evangelicals give Israel actually hurts Israel in the long run because it is so irrational.

  • Paul Harry Stevens

    I think you got it wrong brother. You make the mistake that many do and look only at Israel’s actions without looking at, and considering, what the opposition has done. I am a Christian and I support Israel.

  • Colin Smith

    No idea why, but the italicised words aren’t showing up on my screen. Had to copy/paste the gaps onto a ‘word’ file to read them.

    I’ve met this so many times when people conflate criticism of a state’s actions with hostility toward a people. If nothing else it’s a basic error of English language skills.

  • JD

    Neither side is innocent. They are both continuing this cycle of violence, but Israel’s brutality is not remotely proportional to what is being done to them. They have caged these people as though they are animals. When they fire rockets (which is wrong) that have killed 50 people since 2001, Israel responds with disproportionate violence.

    As Christians, we shouldn’t pick sides, but should be a beacon of peace and healing for both sides.

  • jetwideawake

    Paul, Just wondering. Might you have it wrong and that you only look at what the Palestinians have done without considering what Israel has done? I am a Christian but I don’t blindly support any man made institution, organization or government. I don’t support Palestinian, Israeli or any group or government terrorism.

  • Seán

    Excellent article!

  • Lapequenafuriaparlante

    Definitely JD!

  • Not to mention that a lot of Middle East animosity toward the US is tied to our unqualified support for Israel.

    I blame dispensationalism. Honestly, I do. It’s a very popular eschatology that God has a special relationship and role to the nation-state of Israel created in the 1940s. It’s ridiculous, unbiblical, and has real repercussions.

  • Thanks for posting all these fact-related sites showing how the Israeli government persecutes, harms, steals, and kills.

    Another tragic story is of the Tent of Nations Palestinian family whose orchard was bulldozed by the Israeli military:-(

    http://www.tentofnations.org/about/about-us/

    https://vimeo.com/98071842

    A powerful book: Blood Brothers by Eli Chacour, a Palestinian who father and brother were kidnapped by the Israelis, their church blown up, and they haven’t been able to move back to their destroyed village even to this day.

  • David

    I’m curious if you have ever been to Israel? Specifically have you been to the occupied territories? I have and will tell you that after spending time on the ground in Hebron and other places I saw up close and personal the way Israeli soldiers and settlers treat not just Palestinian Muslims but Christians too. I do not condone violence but certainly understand how people who are under constant oppression will inevitably respond in kind. Americans have no clue what Palestinians have to endure on a daily basis. And children are bearing the brunt of this tyranny. When you walk a child through clouds of tear gas and flash bang grenades to school it changes your perspective. It’s little wonder to me that the cycle of violence continues unabated because children are exposed to it at a very early age.

  • peaches

    Brother, you have taken the incidents out of context in most cases. I do not have all or many of the relevant incidents on my bookmarks, so I can’t point them out. The so-called Palestinians live on land that should belong to Israel. They are people that no islamic nation would take in as refugees. The ultimate purpose for that was to plant a people group next to Israel that could be raised up to hide the terrorists that we now see hiding among the people. The Hamas group goes into hospitals, homes, schools etc. thinking they will not be bombed by the Israelis. Mothers have use babies a bombers, because the sacrifice of a couple of their offspring guarantees them a place in their paradise. To bring us up to date, the muslims now stab innocent people as they are out in public. Not one country says a word against the Palestinian terrorists, but are quick to slam the Israelis for protecting themselves. The UN consists of many islamic people. The UN does not condemn the actions of terrorism by the Palestinians, ever, but is ALWAYS quick to blame and condemn Israel for being at fault. While we are to pray and help others, it is not reasonable to be blind about current affairs with all that is now going on in the world. Israel is a dot on the map surrounded by those who wish to wipe her from the map. They claim the Temple mount is theirs. How ridiculous are their claims, when digs support the area as being lived in by the Jewish people. Too many flawed points in your reasoning for lack of support for Israel. Where should the people live then?

  • Guy Norred

    ^^This^^

  • Arbustin

    Sad to see you take this road. Your one-sidedness on this issue — Israel as a violent, destructive force out to kill all Christians and Arabs, and Palestinians as meek and peace-loving — is as tone-deaf as the Israel-can-do-no-wrong crowd in both the Jewish and Christian communities. Your justification and minimization of terrorism is as disgusting as your history ridiculous. Palestinians lived in peace and security before 1967?

  • JD

    I’m not sure where you got that Ben was painting the Palestinian side as “meek and peace-loving”. Both sides are committing acts of terror. Both are spiraling down the drain in this cycle of violence. Israel oppresses the Palestinians. The Palestinians react with violence. Israel responds with even worse violence. And the cycle continues.

    There’s no need to misrepresent Ben’s points simply because you don’t agree with him.

  • barrieabalard1

    I don’t support the state of Israel, but some Palestinians have done more than throw a few rocks. There have been any number of suicide bombers who have killed and maimed hundreds of people. Let’s not romanticize one side or the other. And, yes, I have spent time in Israel, and have seen both sides.

  • JD

    How about end the apartheid state and disproportionate retaliation and try living in peace with each other? Quit treating the Palestinian people as the South African government treated blacks back in the day. Sadly, just as was the case 2000 years ago, they do not know what things make for peace.

    As Christians, our job is not to pick sides in a violent and bloody war. Our job is to be a refuge for the broken and those that need healing. Our job is to love Jew and Palestinian alike.

  • Arbustin

    I don’t think I’m misrepresenting them at all. He doesn’t agree with you that both sides are committing acts of terror, btw. “I realized Palestinians weren’t terrorists, but a frustrated people living under apartheid.”

  • 100% if we did not have dispensationalism, the US would not be supporting Israel. Take away end-times theology, and leaders would be calling for sanctions or military action against them.

  • Herm

    Thank you Ben for your honesty, your daring, and sharing this, your validated truth, in a manner in which a fifth grader could understand!

    Now will come those conservative, especially of the fragmenting USA Christian clan, traditionalists to brand you a dangerous liberal, progressive, socialist, dissenter and heretic.

    Are you crazy? What are you thinking? The simple truth, they will think, is that if supporting all that the democratic nation of Israel, God’s chosen, is good enough for the Christ inspired pastor of your youth then it should be good enough for you. If you were inclined to speak such as a child then you should grow up to speak such as a man. God doesn’t change!

    The demagogues will mark you as an unpatriotic rabble-rousing anti-Semite because their cause is to be popular, even if the result is evil, rather than strive to be intentionally good when such might lead to the cross.

    Well, Jesus was branded as a dangerous liberal, progressive, socialist, dissenter and heretic because He was evil to the sensitive balance between secular and religious relationships during His three year ministerial walk on this earth. What was good for the Rabbi of His youth was just not good enough for Jesus or his Father. In my eyes, you are in divine company.

    The paid politically inclined, secular and religious, lobbyists of our day will strive to censor you unjustly by playing to the traditional fears of ignorance that justified the murder of Christ. You cannot be unpatriotic to the whole of mankind when speaking from your heart and mind in counsel with the Architect of mankind. You cannot be a rabble-rouser when you speak only the truth the best you know how. For those who are not ignorant of the truth that Jesus is King of the Jews, you cannot be an anti-Semite because they would also know that He is King of the Palestinians also, equally motivated by love for each. He died to serve ALL of mankind as one without bias. He lives to unite us all in His Spirit. You do too. Love you!

  • JD

    Your claim was that Ben presented the Palestinians as “meek and peace loving”. That’s absolutely false. Just because he may not consider it terrorism does not mean he’s saying they are “meek and peace loving”. You intentionally distorted his point so you could paint in extremes.

    Personally, I believe both sides have engaged in terrorism. IDF, Hamas, PLO, settlers, etc. They’ve all engaged in terrorism. But, Ben is right. We need to look at why they are resorting to violence. They are resorting to violence because they are being brutally oppressed. They are wrong for responding they way they do, but until we get out of this mindset that all Palestinians are terrorists and start looking at the real causes of the violence, nothing will change.

  • Arbustin

    “but until we get out of this mindset that all Palestinians are terrorists” — I hope you’re not under the impression that I think this, because that definitely would be a misrepresentation of what I said.

  • JD

    No, I don’t believe you think that. I don’t know you. I’m talking of the general mindset. I was simply explaining what I believed Ben was saying, and why I believe you grossly misrepresented what he said. Ben never claimed either side was “meek and peace loving”. They aren’t. And that’s why followers of Christ are so important in this situation. We don’t need to be cheering on one side to kill the other. We need to be an example of peace and enemy love. Many Palestinian Christians are already working to be that example. American Christians, however, openly celebrate the actions of Israel. They openly celebrate oppression and brutality because of some warped theology that persists in America.

  • Herm

    peaches, the question here is not where should the people live but, rather, how should the people live? Trying to kick out residents, outside the border they were given, to resettle in the name of “it is their God given right” is not in the nature of Christ or world peace. Those Palestinian residents were not nomadic when the borders were established by the United Nations. The Jewish people had lost all of Israel long before the United Nations took pity on them because the world allowed the Nazi Holocaust. God was capable of seeing that didn’t happen.

    Where was the world when Joseph Stalin murdered three times more of mankind after Adolph Hitler died?

    It just may be you who has taken the incidents out of context in most cases.

    A student of Christ cares most how to love all of God and Man regardless of where the people live. A little child of God lives as one inside the heart and mind of God without borders.

  • Iawoke004

    My Jewish father-in-law taught me so much. His views on Israel surprised me and I hold them now. He believed displacing the Palestinian people was wrong, not much different then what happened in Germany to the Jews. That Jews would be judged by God for that. To be a Jew to him, meant to be loving and helpful, to live it not talk about it. He supported a two state solution, asap. If Jews are God’s chosen and God is love, then Jews should live love. This from a man, who linage is only Jewish.

  • nathan

    Unfortunately, most of these arguments will fall on deaf ears because many Christians falsely believe they have a Biblical obligation to support Israel. The theological issue needs to be addressed — the “Israel” of the Bible is not the same as the modern day state of Israel. Romans 11 and various other NT passages identify “Israel” as those who are followers of Christ. So, any Biblical citation referring to the need to “support Israel” is misapplied.

    If someone wants to support Israel for geopolitical reasons, that is fine (although misguided, in my opinion). But, theologically, there is no obligation on Christians to support this nation.

  • Merla Watson

    As a Christian I have lived here in Israel for 40 years. Not ONE of your arguments holds water. You do not live here – you do NOT know what you are talking about. The only positive thing you are doing and saying is that you ARE fulfilling prophecy – you ARE among those whom the Bible states very clearly will desert Israel! Time will prove that you are dead wrong! I love Jesus with all my heart and soul and loving Israel has in NO way separated me from this Land at all! I pray God will change your heart, my brother!

  • liberalinlove

    How is the Israeli situation any different than moving our Native Americans to reservations and treating them like non-citizens of their own land?
    I’ve also read the stories of Christian missionaries to the Palestinians. They would concur with Benjamin Corey.
    If you truly love Israel, just like if you truly love the U.S., you will find that blind loyalty which serves the comforts of those who enjoy them does not speak to the costs of the many injustices that are created as a result. There are Rabbis for Peace who will also concur with Benjamin. I pray that you begin to step out of your comfort zone and begin to call Israel to righteousness. That is what truly loving our neighbor as ourselves is about. Speaking truth in love.

  • JD

    One doesn’t need to live there to be able to see what’s happening. Both “sides” are guilty of perpetuating the cycle of violence. Palestinians feel as though they are victims of a brutal apartheid state. Sticking your fingers in your ears and writing it off as nonsense, and even being aggressive towards it, does nothing to help the problem. Their concerns must be addressed as they perceive them if you wish for peace. It’s called empathy. So some Palestinians lash out with violence. The most headline grabbing is the rocket attack. In the thousands of rocket attacks since 2001, 50 Israelis have died. Then honestly look at the retaliation by Israel and tell me that it’s remotely just using the principles of just war theory (Note: in no way do I believe the just war theory is remotely Christian). So, Israel retaliates disproportionate to how they were attacked, which only furthers the resolve of the Palestinian people. And so the cycle continues. Both sides are complicit. It’s not our job as the church to pick sides. Our job is to be there for the broken. Our job is to love, Israeli and Palestinian. Our job is to be that refuge for those that need healing. Not to pick sides in a bloody war.

    As for having not lived there, perhaps it’s even best that we don’t live there, as we are not blinded by nationalism/tribalism that you see from both sides. And nobody is abandoning Israel. The church is Israel, not the geopolitical nation state drawn up by the UN.

  • liberalinlove

    I often consider the Irish conflict between Northern Ireland and the rest of Ireland, where it has been explained that Protestants absolutely rebelled against living under Catholic rule. Bombs, deaths, fires, unspeakable horrors. What are we driven to, when pushed into corners that we ourselves paint.
    The Palestinians are living under hardships that they did not buy. Perhaps as we speak for justice for victims, we keep in mind that hatred can build in the hearts of those who are unheard. Speaking up for peace and sharing the love of Jesus. We have a huge job in our daily lives living out those examples to others.

  • liberalinlove

    There is only one side being told. Check out the Rabbis for Peace blogs or the Jews for peace, or the Jews who are not Zionists. Read other news sources. We’ve been getting one story and one only. Learn all of the truth. Then be a peacemaker.

  • David

    Daniel – I’ve spent time with the Nassar family at the Tent of Nations and know exactly what they have had to endure. Surrounded by settlements, water and electricity cut off. And they are Christians. The year before last they had 1,500 olive trees cut down by settlers and are under constant threat. Daoud Nassar is one of the finest people I’ve ever met. He and his family do not use violence in any way, shape or form while being subjected to violence on a daily basis. It’s a story that must be told.

  • liberalinlove

    How can they burn down olive groves owned by Palestinians for generations to displace them and make room for expansion for Jewish people. Do you see any rotten fruit with your “truth”?

  • liberalinlove

    I am a Christian and I support Israel. I love them enough to hold them accountable for their actions. I also support the Palestinians rights to justice.
    Turning a blind eye to actions that are anti-biblical, is not loving. As a secular state they have an agenda that has nothing to do with the call that God has placed on His people, (all of us) which is to act justly and to speak up for justice always.

  • liberalinlove

    Christians are not even respected by Israelis who see us as wanting to proselytize. They are using pro-Zionists to empower their own agendas.

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Thanks and shalom, friend Ben… The great Rebbe RAMBAM (Maimonides) did not speak Hebrew as his cradle tongue… his The Guide for the Perplexed was originally composed in Arabic.

    I lament when I see those such as my landlady that latch onto any and all propaganda, mostly written by those whose only views come from Hal Lindsay, Frank Peretti, and whatever their ignorant “pastor” pours into their ears every Sunday.

    These are folks who have a very tidy view of the state of the world, and their place in it, and have no care that reality is much, much more nuanced.

    My beloved late Pop was fiercely proud of his Jewish heritage (and, frankly, looked like he’d not been out of the desert for long… Nana looked like Semitic royalty)…

    Pop was never against the nation-state of modern Israel as it is… Regardless of anything else, most of the international community has recognized them as a sovereign nation, and it’s an evident fact. Pop was proud of the noblest of Sabra accomplishments, and cried with everyone else watching Victory at Entebbe…

    But one of the very, very few times I ever saw serious fury in his eyes would be when someone “in the tribe” would spout all the Hebraic equivalient of American jingoism, and expect him to be some sort of political Zionist….

    My father taught me quite well, and the world is not as simplistic a “David vs. Goliath” thing the Sekulows, the Christian-Zionists and others would have one believe.

    They don’t much like to talk about their reasons for wishing to cram all the tribes back into that strip of land… For all their touting of “love” for the Jewish people, my folks are just fodder for the narrative that once all are crammed in there, their interpretation of Jesus will touch down on the Mount of Olives and promptly destroy the vast majority. That kind of love? Who needs it?

  • I completely agree. Wish I had had a chance to meet them when I lived in Palestine/Israel.

    Here’s hoping that more and more humans–especially Israelis and Palestinians
    will take to heart Howard Zinn’s words:
    “TO BE HOPEFUL in bad times is not just foolishly romantic. It is based on the fact that human history is a history not only of cruelty, but also of compassion, sacrifice, courage, kindness.

    What we choose to emphasize in this complex history will determine our lives…”
    ― Howard Zinn

  • Terry E. Christian

    There is no correlation between the Israel of biblical times and the modern Zionist nation of Israel.
    All so-called “prophecy” on the subject of Israel’s fate is unfounded garbage.

  • Arbustin

    Just to clarify, I am not a Christian, progressive, evangelical or otherwise. I am thus in no position to really know what message the Christian community has been getting on this topic. I am Jewish and a Zionist, just one who believes in a two-state solution and that the current government is on a dangerously wrong Pax Israeliana path, not to mention its other trends that are contrary to a country that says it’s a liberal democracy.

  • liberalinlove

    Yikes, I love your response. I wish I could copy, print and carry it with me. But alas my Zionist friends avoid my conversations as if I am the Antichrist’s first cousin. Thank you so very much for posting.

  • wolfeevolution

    “a lot of Middle East animosity toward the US is tied to our unqualified support for Israel.”

    Yes! And on the flip side, too, a lot of American animosity toward Muslims is tied to our animosity toward Palestinians (as portrayed in the media). What I mean is this: I work with a lot of Muslims that have never lived under the same sort of apartheid that Palestinians do, and — whaddaya know — they see no reason to act like Palestinians are generally portrayed as acting! They are generally kindhearted people who would never dream of showering rockets on civilians. (Of course most Palestinians are probably this way, too, but it’s not how they’re portrayed in certain media outlets.) So whenever I speak out about Muslim issues on Facebook, I have American friends that say, “Yeah, but, but Palestinians! I lived in Israel and they’re horrible, evil people, these Muslims!” I want to grab these brothers and sisters by the shoulders, look them in the eyes and tell them: Friends, this is not a religion issue but an oppression issue.

    In other words, I think there’s plenty of misplaced animosity on *both* sides because of our support of Israel.

  • Merla Watson

    I will pray for you every day.

  • liberalinlove

    Thank you for the clarification.
    Trust me there is no wiggle room for two-state solutions with Christian Zionists. To understand those viewpoints is to understand why Benjamin Corey’s thoughts are so relevant.

  • Paul Julian Gould

    I lost my beloved Pop to cancer in 2004, but I’m so grateful for the years between 1996 and his passing, as we weren’t especially close during my youth… I was rather a strange child, being on the PDD end of the spectrum among other things, and my Pop lived, ate, breathed and slept the law… He practiced in L.A. from 1951 until his death. We became friends, and I learned so much from him… and, surprisingly, he admitted to having learned much from me.

    I’m honored beyond any comprehension that the last word anyone ever heard him speak was my name.

    It is from his example and other honorable folks I’ve known that I am exploring the heritage of my father’s people. My Mom? Hell, we were buds, and losing her this past March is a scar I’m going to carry into the next life…

    I’ve learned so much, I’ve so much to learn and regret that as I’m knocking on the door of my 60’s, I’ve so many more years and missed opportunities behind than possibilities ahead. But I’m pleased that the way both my beloved late parents raised me has enabled me to step back a bit and examine the details rather than the shiny-object distractions.

  • liberalinlove

    Prayer is so essential. We should all be praying for each other. Make it a biblical prayer, the same that Jesus taught. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven! Any prayers that lift up our own agendas are soulish prayers.
    Thanksgiving and Prayer
    …8For God is my witness, how I long for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus. 9And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, 10so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ;…Philippians 1:9

  • Paul Julian Gould

    I was hoping (though I rather suspect not) that the statement was a blanket, unloaded generic wish…

    Again, probably not, as terse as the comment happened to be, and I’m not really bored enough to research anyone else’s commenting history…

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Considering that the earliest Zionist conferences seriously explored the possibility of purchasing land in Uganda, it’s obvious about the power of the narrative… The strip of land, occupied mostly peacefully by Jews, Muslims, Catholics, Orthodox, for centuries, had the power of the narrative…

    And so goes modern history…

  • otrotierra

    Thank you Benjamin for standing with Jesus, without apology, over the oppressive regimes of occupation and war. How terribly unpopular and offensive it is to follow Jesus!

  • Falken

    You’re being arrogant and following the LaHaye/Robertson brand of Christianity where if people say things you don’t like, point out how your little heroes may actually be villains, you switch between this Mary Sue style of “I’m a victim and I know the truth” and this whole thing of “well I get to be right either way”. It’s unoriginal. It’s boring. It’s also quite unbiblical to blind oneself to the atrocities a country commits because it takes on a biblical name.

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Seriously? You are presuming that people with millennia of diaspora somehow magically have rights, under an American Evangelical Protestant interpretation of the Bible, to land that generations of folks have lived on peacefully?

    Should one go to each door to question by which language and interpretation they refer to the Absolute before deciding whether to boot them out and bulldoze?

    And, really, by what right do you presume to make such horrible and hateful statements? Which American Evangelical Protestant granted you that right, as it’s certainly not from the standpoint of anything other…

    — edit —

    As an aside, ask a Syrian or Iraqi Orthodox Christian what the name for God happens to be in their Bibles….

    And, further, check out Rebbe Maimonides in the original Arabic in which he penned his scholarly works…. I don’t read Arablc, nor do I know many words beyond “Shukhran,” or “As-salaamu aleikum wa rahmatulllahi wa barakatuhu,” but I do know what the script for “Allah” happens to be…. I’m not a Muslim, nor do I have to be, but my perceptions don’t tend to be based on whether something is either A or B…. there are 24 other letters in the English alphabet, sir.

  • Merla Watson

    AMEN!!!! SHALOM!!!

  • Theo

    As someone who is neither a Christian nor a Jesus-follower of any sort, I find these reasons perfectly compelling without the Christian lens. I’m curious to know if Jesus makes these reasons more compelling to you and if they are sufficient on their own?

  • tom hebert

    Reading a very interesting book by Robert O. Smith, More Desired Than Our Owne Salvation, The Roots of Christian Zionism. It points to an origin of this thinking in Reformation England and traces it through to John Hagee and CUFI. Great work for a deeper understanding of what is going on, and why it is likely highly resistant to any rational, factual arguments.

  • That’s a great observation, Theo. I would argue that these points are sufficient without any religious lens, but for me, Jesus certainly makes it more compelling because he invites us not to passivity, but to be voices for the oppressed. So, following Jesus (for me) gives me all the more reason to speak out when people are being harmed (in this case, genocide).

  • Eric Anderson

    Merla, in your 40 years in Israel, have you been to Hebron? Have you been to Rafah? Have you been to Gaza City? Have you talked to the Christians in Bethlehem about their lives? I mean ones who are free to speak, because if you went there with any Israeli-operated, Israeli-affiliated, or Israeli-endorsed tour or travel arrangement, the odds are very good that your Palestinian guides were forbidden to talk about the occupation, lest they lose their livelihoods.

    If you’re there now, go look up Sabeel in Jerusalem, go take a tour with IDF veterans from Breaking The Silence. You can spend a lifetime in Israel and have no idea what horrors are being done in your name 20 miles away.

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Thank you both…

    It must be remembered that the American Likudniks (who to a person would have no understanding of what that is), tend to have a pretty specific reason for their so-called “Christian Zionism.” It bears no relation to realpolitik, nor gives any credence to any nuance amongst the battling factions in that region, even amongst the residents with Israeli passports.

    It owes mostly to, whether recognized or not, as astutely commented by another, the Darby/Scofield dispensationalism of the early 20th century, and its modern incarnations…

    Certain hard-line factions in the political entity of Israel have counted on the loyalty of the American Evangelical Protestants, however
    contemptuously they view the reasons for that support…

    Their view is that this current entity of “Israel” is the fulfillment of prophecy, that all the tribes need to be gathered in, and their interpretation of Jesus will then return, with the vast majority of those they presume to “love” being destroyed and sent to hell.

    Rather stark, without the flowery bullshit it usually nests in, no?

  • liberalinlove

    Paul Julian Gould. I was responding to Merla Watson’s comment! Sometimes we want to pray that someone will change their mind to what we believe is the truth. Yet really the Lord’s prayer and calling each other to a life of love pretty much covers it. I hope this was fairly upbeat.

  • Paul Julian Gould

    I caught it… that was why I went to the comparative negative…

    For such a terse statement, it reminds me of the last Presidential election, as the final result was announced for Pres. Obama, my ex-wife had only one statement on her FB wall…

    “Lord Jesus have mercy.”

    That, by itself, is certainly a worthy offering, but, well…. anyone knew what it was supposed to be meaning… *smile*

    I don’t have quite the investment in Christian scriptural citations that you, and the obvious majority of commenters on this estimable blog, so I can afford to be the poke in the ribs… *chuckle*

  • thatdigiguy

    I find it amusing that Pathos is faithfully following the same pathologically downward spiral mapped out across history by so many other individuals & organizations who’ve begun by walking away from the total inerrancy of the Scriptures.

    First a little twist here & there, to make it ‘more acceptable’.. then a turn to elevate “scientific consensus” to a level above the word of God.. Then this level of drivel..

    where do we go from here? You might as well get straight on to full support of Hamas, as you’ve already played down their terrorist actions as simply “a frustrated people”…..

    I’m sorry to offend, but please quit calling yourself CHristian, and start labeling yourself as “christianlite”… it’d be a lot more accurate.

  • JD

    “You might as well get straight on to full support of Hamas”…oh brother. Understanding why a people are resorting to violence doesn’t mean you endorse their violence. There are terrorist acts on both sides of this fight. I’m not sure why you think it is “christianlite” to not pick sides in a bloody destruction of those that bear the image of our Creator, but instead promote love of all…Jew and Palestinian alike.

  • Sofia AT
  • This is the weirdest objection I have ever read. You manage to make inerrancy, evolution, and Israeli politics all the same thing. Do you just have a jar full of fundamentalist hot buttons and you pull stuff out of it or what?

  • The Bible does not predict anyone deserting the modern nation state of Israel.

  • That land does not belong to Israel.

  • Oh, this drivel was just a drop in the bucket. You should stick around long enough to hear about how much he loves gay people and how much he hates guns. It’d blow your mind dude.

  • Victor Valenzuela

    here is the thing pal…. they are a very messed up country because they rejected the son of God… God the father want us to help them to accept Jesus so Israel can be the country that it was once (a Holy Nation). Israel was chosen by God but they are so stubborn! we have to support Israel but that doesn’t mean we will agree with their mistakes. We have to love them even thou they don’t like Christians at all. Sadly no body is supporting Israel right now but only the Christians… you put out they torture children from Palestine..that is very true indeed, therefore they need to Jesus to do things right. do you have any idea how muslims hate the rest of the world? don’t forget that Muslims hate non-muslims because they follow muhammad’s teachings… so don’t get confused with all the war stuff provoked them to kill other people. just keep in mind to keep praying for Israel.

  • A great article indeed Benjamin. And the comment flow afterward is just as revealing!

  • Terri Knoll

    My feelings exactly. I would add another one, I am sick to death that my tax dollars are being used to fund this genocide and apartheid.

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Doesn’t fit the narrative, obviously… much preferable to be an American useful idiot for the Likud party, as that seems to fit the novels written by American Evangelicals who’ve never left the borders of the US, or those who took the government-approved tours that fit their preconceptions… those always rule, rather than millennia of scholarly interpretation….

  • Terri Knoll

    I agree. Great observation. I have many atheist friends that also don’t support Israel and what it’s doing in creating the apartheid state. As a Christian though, I hope many more Western Christians would wake up and realize the truth, because our Christian Palestinian brothers and sisters are going through the same horrible occupation as the Muslims are. As a matter of fact when Israel bombed many mosques in Gaza last year, the Christians called the Muslims to their churches to have their prayers. They fail to realize the Palestinians are the direct descendants of the Hebrews of the Bible. Not the Jews who converted to Judaism in Europe. And definitely not the NY Jews moving to the illegal settlements being erected on Palestinian land. It’s just awful.

  • Sofia AT
  • Sofia AT

    Israeli Historian: Palestinians Are Biological Descendants of Bible’s Jews
    Israel/PalestineUS Politics Philip Weiss on September 2, 2008 27 Comments
    Adjust Font Size





    Two new articles deal with political/genetic controversies over the origins of “the Jewish people” (of whom I consider myself a part for one tribal reason or another). Here is Israeli historian Schlomo Sand in Le Monde Diplomatique, writing, “Israel Deliberately Forgets Its History.” Sand says that the Jewish exile of 70 AD is a myth, and “the Jews” of Europe were created by conversion.

    Then there is the question of the exile of 70 AD. There has been no real research into this turning point in Jewish history, the cause of the diaspora. And for a simple reason: the Romans never exiled any nation from anywhere on the eastern seaboard of the Mediterranean…

    But if there was no exile after 70 AD, where did all the Jews who have populated the Mediterranean since antiquity come from? The smokescreen of national historiography hides an astonishing reality. From the Maccabean revolt of the mid-2nd century BC to the Bar Kokhba revolt of the 2nd century AD, Judaism was the most actively proselytising religion…

    The most significant mass conversion occurred in the 8th century, in the massive Khazar kingdom between the Black and Caspian seas. The expansion of Judaism from the Caucasus into modern Ukraine created a multiplicity of communities, many of which retreated from the 13th century Mongol invasions into eastern Europe. There, with Jews from the Slavic lands to the south and from what is now modern Germany, they formed the basis of Yiddish culture…

    Until about 1960 the complex origins of the Jewish people were more or less reluctantly acknowledged by Zionist historiography. But thereafter they were marginalised and finally erased from Israeli public memory. The Israeli forces who seized Jerusalem in 1967 believed themselves to be the direct descendents of the mythic kingdom of David rather than – God forbid – of Berber warriors or Khazar horsemen. The Jews claimed to constitute a specific ethnic group that had returned to Jerusalem, its capital, from 2,000 years of exile and wandering.

    Hillel Halkin somewhat concedes the point in Commentary, writing that DNA studies suggest that “Jews” owe a lot to intermixing of genes in eastern Europe and Asia. Halkin briefly sounds an enlightened note:

    Perhaps one day Israel will be become the “state of all its citizens”
    that democratic values require it to be, a country of Hebrew-speaking
    Jews, Muslims, and Christians, all equal before the law. Although the
    great majority of secular Israelis do not yet subscribe to this point
    of view, more and more will come to it if things continue on their
    present course.

    As for Palestine, Schlomo Sand suggests that the Palestinians are the people we call “the Jews” in the Bible:

    Apart from enslaved prisoners, the population of Judea continued to live on their lands, even after the destruction of the second temple [in 70 AD]. Some converted to Christianity in the 4th century, while the majority embraced Islam during the 7th century Arab conquest.

    Most Zionist thinkers were aware of this: Yitzhak Ben Zvi, later president of Israel, and David Ben Gurion, its first prime minister, accepted it as late as 1929, the year of the great Palestinian revolt. Both stated on several occasions that the peasants of Palestine were the descendants
    of the inhabitants of ancient Judea.

    I guess that’s why I’m for the right of return. Hey, we’re all just people. Can’t we all just get along??

    (Thanks to Nabil Al-Khowaiter for the tip.)

    – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2008/09/israeli-historian-palestinians-are-biological-descendants-of-bibles-jews#sthash.vdy3s5YI.dpuf

  • Sofia AT

    Israeli Historian: Palestinians Are Biological Descendants of Bible’s Jews
    Israel/PalestineUS Politics Philip Weiss on September 2, 2008 27 Comments
    Adjust Font Size





    Two new articles deal with political/genetic controversies over the origins of “the Jewish people” (of whom I consider myself a part for one tribal reason or another). Here is Israeli historian Schlomo Sand in Le Monde Diplomatique, writing, “Israel Deliberately Forgets Its History.” Sand says that the Jewish exile of 70 AD is a myth, and “the Jews” of Europe were created by conversion.

    Then there is the question of the exile of 70 AD. There has been no real research into this turning point in Jewish history, the cause of the diaspora. And for a simple reason: the Romans never exiled any nation from anywhere on the eastern seaboard of the Mediterranean…

    But if there was no exile after 70 AD, where did all the Jews who have populated the Mediterranean since antiquity come from? The smokescreen of national historiography hides an astonishing reality. From the Maccabean revolt of the mid-2nd century BC to the Bar Kokhba revolt of the 2nd century AD, Judaism was the most actively proselytising religion…

    The most significant mass conversion occurred in the 8th century, in the massive Khazar kingdom between the Black and Caspian seas. The expansion of Judaism from the Caucasus into modern Ukraine created a multiplicity of communities, many of which retreated from the 13th century Mongol invasions into eastern Europe. There, with Jews from the Slavic lands to the south and from what is now modern Germany, they formed the basis of Yiddish culture…

    Until about 1960 the complex origins of the Jewish people were more or less reluctantly acknowledged by Zionist historiography. But thereafter they were marginalised and finally erased from Israeli public memory. The Israeli forces who seized Jerusalem in 1967 believed themselves to be the direct descendents of the mythic kingdom of David rather than – God forbid – of Berber warriors or Khazar horsemen. The Jews claimed to constitute a specific ethnic group that had returned to Jerusalem, its capital, from 2,000 years of exile and wandering.

    Hillel Halkin somewhat concedes the point in Commentary, writing that DNA studies suggest that “Jews” owe a lot to intermixing of genes in eastern Europe and Asia. Halkin briefly sounds an enlightened note:

    Perhaps one day Israel will be become the “state of all its citizens”
    that democratic values require it to be, a country of Hebrew-speaking
    Jews, Muslims, and Christians, all equal before the law. Although the
    great majority of secular Israelis do not yet subscribe to this point
    of view, more and more will come to it if things continue on their
    present course.

    As for Palestine, Schlomo Sand suggests that the Palestinians are the people we call “the Jews” in the Bible:

    Apart from enslaved prisoners, the population of Judea continued to live on their lands, even after the destruction of the second temple [in 70 AD]. Some converted to Christianity in the 4th century, while the majority embraced Islam during the 7th century Arab conquest.

    Most Zionist thinkers were aware of this: Yitzhak Ben Zvi, later president of Israel, and David Ben Gurion, its first prime minister, accepted it as late as 1929, the year of the great Palestinian revolt. Both stated on several occasions that the peasants of Palestine were the descendants
    of the inhabitants of ancient Judea.

    I guess that’s why I’m for the right of return. Hey, we’re all just people. Can’t we all just get along??

    .)

    – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2008/09/israeli-historian-palestinians-are-biological-descendants-of-bibles-jews#sthash.vdy3s5YI.dpuf

  • Sofia AT

    Israeli Historian: Palestinians Are Biological Descendants of Bible’s Jews
    Israel/PalestineUS Politics Philip Weiss on September 2, 2008 27 Comments
    Adjust Font Size





    Two new articles deal with political/genetic controversies over the origins of “the Jewish people” (of whom I consider myself a part for one tribal reason or another). Here is Israeli historian Schlomo Sand in Le Monde Diplomatique, writing, “Israel Deliberately Forgets Its History.” Sand says that the Jewish exile of 70 AD is a myth, and “the Jews” of Europe were created by conversion.

    Then there is the question of the exile of 70 AD. There has been no real research into this turning point in Jewish history, the cause of the diaspora. And for a simple reason: the Romans never exiled any nation from anywhere on the eastern seaboard of the Mediterranean…

    But if there was no exile after 70 AD, where did all the Jews who have populated the Mediterranean since antiquity come from? The smokescreen of national historiography hides an astonishing reality. From the Maccabean revolt of the mid-2nd century BC to the Bar Kokhba revolt of the 2nd century AD, Judaism was the most actively proselytising religion…

    The most significant mass conversion occurred in the 8th century, in the massive Khazar kingdom between the Black and Caspian seas. The expansion of Judaism from the Caucasus into modern Ukraine created a multiplicity of communities, many of which retreated from the 13th century Mongol invasions into eastern Europe. There, with Jews from the Slavic lands to the south and from what is now modern Germany, they formed the basis of Yiddish culture…

    Until about 1960 the complex origins of the Jewish people were more or less reluctantly acknowledged by Zionist historiography. But thereafter they were marginalised and finally erased from Israeli public memory. The Israeli forces who seized Jerusalem in 1967 believed themselves to be the direct descendents of the mythic kingdom of David rather than – God forbid – of Berber warriors or Khazar horsemen. The Jews claimed to constitute a specific ethnic group that had returned to Jerusalem, its capital, from 2,000 years of exile and wandering.

    Hillel Halkin somewhat concedes the point in Commentary, writing that DNA studies suggest that “Jews” owe a lot to intermixing of genes in eastern Europe and Asia. Halkin briefly sounds an enlightened note:

    Perhaps one day Israel will be become the “state of all its citizens”
    that democratic values require it to be, a country of Hebrew-speaking
    Jews, Muslims, and Christians, all equal before the law. Although the
    great majority of secular Israelis do not yet subscribe to this point
    of view, more and more will come to it if things continue on their
    present course.

    As for Palestine, Schlomo Sand suggests that the Palestinians are the people we call “the Jews” in the Bible:

    Apart from enslaved prisoners, the population of Judea continued to live on their lands, even after the destruction of the second temple [in 70 AD]. Some converted to Christianity in the 4th century, while the majority embraced Islam during the 7th century Arab conquest.

    Most Zionist thinkers were aware of this: Yitzhak Ben Zvi, later president of Israel, and David Ben Gurion, its first prime minister, accepted it as late as 1929, the year of the great Palestinian revolt. Both stated on several occasions that the peasants of Palestine were the descendants
    of the inhabitants of ancient Judea.

    I guess that’s why I’m for the right of return. Hey, we’re all just people. Can’t we all just get along??

    (Thanks to Nabil Al-Khowaiter for the tip.)

    – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2008/09/israeli-historian-palestinians-are-biological-descendants-of-bibles-jews#sthash.vdy3s5YI.dpuf

  • Soleil

    You are a liar and another spewer of hasbara. I highly doubt you are a Christian. No God of mine gives carte blanche to criminals. There is a New Covenant and if you were a Christian, you would know that.

  • Merla Watson

    Yes to all your queries, Eric. AND we have very good Arab friends – some of whom call themselves Zionists. They show up at the Pro-Israel rallies. And yes, we know Sabeel.

  • MCB

    There’s also the fact that *not everyone in Israel supports what Israel does*. Benjamin Netanyahu and his Likkud ilk play to the most right-wing racist people in Israel. Meanwhile, in America, we act like Israel is a single unit, and blindly support the prime minister as if he IS Israel.

    (This is from a comedy show, but still one of the best summations of this issue: http://www.cc.com/video-clips/ckzvqn/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-hebrew-nationalist)

  • Soleil

    I highly doubt it. She is another Zionist hasbara troll.

  • Bones

    My friend is the Parish Priest at Ramallah.

    He was evicted from his house at gunpoint to make way for Jewish settlers.

    This blind support for Israel actually goes against everything Jesus and the prophets stood for.

  • Psalm023

    So was I, taught by fundamentalist christianity that supporting Israel was an edict for NT believers. It finally dawned on me, after studying, praying, and asking questions. What exactly does ‘support’ mean? Did it mean actually fighting their battles for them? Sending support, money, weapons? Absolutely not. The Ceasars of the world will meddle and interfere, help or refrain help, but believers should let God do his will in the situation. We shouldn’t meddle in the secular affairs of Israel or it’s neighbors. Let God decide.

    Those of us under the New Covenant, under Jesus Christ, have a new mandate, imo, and we are to preach the gospel, refrain from getting involved in land disputes and ME wars, and stay far away from it. If we take sides, it says we prefer one side to experience carnage and innocent loss of life over another. This just isn’t right. We have to be non-biased. There’s so much I still don’t understand, but I know that I know that I cannot take sides. I just pray God’s will be done, as He spoke in His Word. “They Kingdom Come, Thy Will be Done”.

  • Psalm023

    If we truly want to be a friend to Israel, we’ll show them Christ’s love to the whole world. We’ll show them that our consciences convict us to love our neighbor as ourself and Palestinians, as well as Jews, are our neighbors.

    Christians can be Israel’s friend; but they need to know the truth of the matter; the true friend is the one who wouldn’t elect or support a leader that pretends it’s Israel’s best friend. Pretenders are the ones who would arm Israel to kill her neighbors if need be. Real true friends would not get involved, nor arm Israelis in a war with Israel’s neighbors. It’s like Solomon’s answer to the two women who claimed they were the real mother. When the King decided to cut the child in half, the true mother made the true sacrifice and was willing to give the child to the fake mother. The fake mother would have had the child killed because of pride.

    Remember that good advice, when a true friend should not get involved in their best friends’ divorce. They shouldn’t take sides and they refuse to listen to one spouse insult the other. They step back and tell their couple friend that they’ll be there for both of them equally, but will not get involved in tearing one down.

  • kerston

    How about the fact the the “Israel” in the bible has nothing to do with the modern “state of Israel” or even Jews. It was about the descendant’s of Jacob and then through Christ all became “Israel” “chosen” . Does anyone actually read the bible? According to the bible “Israel” is a spiritual people, not a race or ethnicity and certainly not a piece of land. God is not a racist or a real state agent.

  • Guest

    The Jews have occupied Israel since Joshua’s led invasion of Canaan in 1200BC app. Since then over thousands of years many people groups (not only the Palestinians in more recent times) have battled and waged wars with the Jews. I’m not sure how you can not take this into account when referring to the Palestinians struggle. There is reason the Jews are taking ground and defending their land . Of course the Jews are no saints, just look at their biblical history of destruction. Their roots are established in war , why would ruthless killings today be such a shock. Remember They killed an innocent man , one of their own. Israel does have blood on its hands since its Genesis, but this does not negate the fact that as a nation it’s still God’s chosen nation to be redeemed upon Jesus’s return. The book of revelation is centred on israel’s redemption.

  • Bones

    You seem to have missed a couple of thousand years eg when Babylon, Assyria, Persia, Egypt, Greece and Rome were marauding the Middle East. Oh and a little thing after 70CE called the Diaspora.

  • ER

    Thank you for writing this!! Currently I am living in Jerusalem and the treatment that the “Children of Israel” have towards East Jerusalemites and Palestinians is deplorable!

  • xnlover

    When one spouse is severely abusing the other, a friend of the couple will stand with the victim against the abuser, not give the abuser a pass by saying, “I’m not going to take sides, because I love you both equally.” By characterizing what Israel is doing to the Palestinians as “insulting” them, you seem willfully to be ignoring the death and destruction that is a daily reality in the West Bank and Gaza. Don’t minimize the evil that Israel is perpetrating on the Palestinians just because you want to “love” both parties.

  • xnlover

    Those who fail to stop the abuser are guilty of abuse. Israel cannot continue killing Palestinians and expect that people of good conscience will simply stand by and watch them decimate the people whose land they wish to steal. Would you simply stand by and watch a woman get raped on the street or a child get beaten to death with a baseball bat by a group of other children? Those situations are akin to what you propose to do in the case of Israel. You say, “Let God decide.” Well, God has decided, and God has said, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” If you can’t apply that in the situation of Israel and the Palestinians, then you’d best go back to Christianity 101 and relearn the basics.

  • xnlover

    Your philosophy is a perversion of the message of Jesus, and your moniker of “Dr. Evil” is quite appropriate to what you have written.

  • KIZMET

    LOL! Sorry to quote David Cassidy here but… “I think I love you”. I need to talk to you away from here. Bundy eh? Lived there for years and my hubby taught at BSHS. my twitter is Misty Batista… look me up there. (sorry to take away from the conv you are having but.. disqus has no PM facility to do this)… Now.. carry on as usual.

  • Guest

    No I haven’t , I said the Jews have been at war for thousands of years.

  • Guest

    No I haven’t, I said the Jews have been at war for thousands of years.

  • JustSayingOK

    israel does not need your support. Go ahead and put all your attention to supportimg the Duggars.

  • The destroyer

    good article 100% We should support the oppressed and abused on both sides not one national army on either side

  • The destroyer

    It is indeed another good post. RLC unfortunately as you know has now bent over for the radical right wing. You have probably seen they are allowed to attack others like me make random false accusations and even go off topic with no flags at all. For shame. I had to tell you but fear doing it on RLC may get me a flag!

  • otrotierra

    As others will confirm, many people have fled RLC over the past few years–they’ve lost both contributors and commenters due to the absence of moderation (and I mean fair, impartial moderation, not the shameful witch-hunt you describe). Some of the commenters have ended up at Patheos blogs, and you’ll see a few right here at Benjamin Corey’s blog. The RLC moderator has much to learn from Benjamin. Anyway, glad you’re here. I’m always encouraged by Benjamin’s bold affirmations of Jesus and his actual material & spiritual teachings.

  • The destroyer

    Yes thanks for the response. I sometimes thought maybe I was being paranoid but yesterdays posts on All politics are local have the most blatant disregard for the RLC yet are not moderated. I believe RLC fear “looking too left wing.” The reality is they are so scared of /or intertwined with the righties on there that they have become completely biased towards them in terms of their comments. Hey ho glad you told me about blogs like this one. Praise the Lord for his provision.

  • Matthew

    As long as the dispensationalists continue to have the dominant theological view among evangelicals in America, I don´t see much changing in the short run :-(.

    That said, I still think whenever this very heated, very divisive topic comes up (and it does a lot) we absolutely have to attempt to strike a balance somewhere. Israel claims they have a legitimate right to be in the land and I believe they do also, however, that doesn´t necessarily mean how Israel is managing things is clean and spotless — because it´s not. We can be both Christian and critical. It´s really O.K.

    Also, while I agree with a lot of what Benjamin shares in this piece, I still think that there is a religious and ideological element at play with regard to the Muslim view of the Jews and Israel. They don´t want to wipe Israel and the Jews off the map only because of the injustices that Palestinians suffer (and have suffered) at the hands of the Israelis.

  • And abortion. Killing full grown people is just fine, but not abortion.

  • Paul Schlitz Jr.

    I agree. Symbiosis wouldn’t you say?

  • Bones already made this point, but I’m not sure it sank in. Jewish people have not occupied Israel in an uninterrupted string. In fact the entire reason the current nation of Israel exists is because the UN created it whole cloth to give displaced Jewish people in other nations a place to go.

    We are not talking about a people group who have held that land for millennia in an embattled state. Babylon deported them. Other empires waxed and waned on similar policies, and then Judea was shattered by the Roman Empire including the destruction of Jerusalem followed by further dispersion of the Jews (who were already pretty dispersed). Since the first century, the country you currently think of as Israel has not been home to the Jewish people. It took a 20th century artificial intervention from other countries to bring them back. The problem is that there were already people living there. Hence the conflict.

  • Thank you.

  • If there was no Roman diaspora, what was the motive for the Bar Khokba rebellion? They wanted to take back land they were already living in? Is that, like, the first evangelical Americans?

  • Bones

    Lol. It’s a small world.

  • I disagree with the premise that Jewish immigrants have a right to be there that includes displacement of the people living there, but I do agree that we need to acknowledge that neither side is blameless when it comes to atrocity. I’m perhaps more understanding of the Palestinian response, but that response includes some utterly horrible things that also need to be opposed.

    The point about what Muslim nations would or wouldn’t do to Israel is kind of theoretical. We don’t know what they would do if Jews and Palestinians lived in peace, and we’re unlikely to find out – if for no other reason then I doubt that cessation of hostilities would just make everything ok for everybody.

  • Matthew

    I think if you read the Koran, as well as listen closely to the aspirations of the Muslim extremists, it´s not so theoretical. I would agree though Phil, the land should be shared since both groups have historical and biblical ties to it.

    Do you think Arabs and other Muslims are really sensitive to the Palestinian plight and cause, or is the situation simply used as fodder to influence movement toward other political or social goals?

  • gimpi1

    Sadly, Israel is an apartheid nation, with a segment of its population living under an oppressive military occupation. No amount of sympathy for persecutions that Jewish people have endured in the past can change or excuse that.

    Israel needs to figure out how to end its illegal expansion and start acting like the civilized democracy that I think it truly wants to be. Until this happens, I feel the U.S. should withdraw support. We have no business propping up an oppressive regime with our tax dollars. Part of the reason we’re so resented in the middle-east is that many of the weapons Israel has are bought with U.S. foreign aid money. That needs to stop.

    It’s not anti-semitic to expect decent behavior from a country that considers itself a Jewish state. It’s egalitarian. I expect decent (or at least not criminal) behavior from every country, and I don’t want to support, financially or otherwise, any country that is behaving in a criminal or oppressive fashion. And, you know what? Plenty of Jewish people around the world, including in Israel, agree.

  • paladin867

    thanks to the internet the tide is changing as more and more evangelicals are beginning to question this particular theology.

  • gimpi1

    Well, to me, support means what someone needs, not mindless agreement. If someone is falling into alcoholism, is it supportive to cheer them on, or to intervene, point out the problems they are creating?

    Israel’s current course of actions are not only wrong and cruel, they are unsustainable. Not trying to bring that fact to their attention is not supportive, it’s enabling.

  • Linnea912

    Genuinely loving someone means calling them on their behavior when they’re out of line. Israel’s “supporters” have failed miserably on that score for more than 60 years.

  • Silverfox

    You don’t know your history! And you don’t have to go very far back, to see what is happening. The land was barren, nothing could live there, not even the desert animals..and plants (Mark Twain) The people who now call themselves Palestinians, were a nomad tribe of people……they moved around….they actually did not chose to have a country/land of their own, until Arafat. I remember President Clinton negotiating with Arafat. Most of you should remember that too. That is how recent some of this history is. In 1948, this land was given to the Israelis by Britain, who owned this land prior to that. It was arid and who would want it any way. Israel made this arid place bloom! I remember and probably have contributed to, the plea for Trees they promised to put your name with that tree. The desert began to bloom and still does. BTW, this blooming desert was predicted in the Bible. Does Israel have a right to this land…..it seems she does. The intruder appears to be the people who recently took the name of Palestine.

  • goonersamuel

    Certainly a complete misunderstanding of the establishment of the state of Israel. You should probably go back and look up what the Old Yishuv was and the Zionist movement. The fact of the matter is that there were Jews in Palestine long before 1948. Also it might be fair to consider someone judeophobic if they conflate the actions of a radical few with broader Israeli society, since the same metric is used to determine islamophobia. You haven’t freed yourself from confirmation bias, just exchanged it for another one. Also Christian populations are decreasing in Palestinian territories due to persecution. In fact, they’re growing in Israel. So don’t paint Israelis as the only group persecuting Christians. It happens on both sides.

  • I’m sure it all depends on which group of Muslims you’re talking to.

    There are certainly other nations surrounding the area that go relatively unmolested, so I don’t think it’s simply a matter of political domination or Muslims wanting to kill everyone else. But I’m sure there are issues with Israel beyond just the treatment of Palestinians.

  • baaron31

    I don’t think Jesus has anything to do with this. If you are not able to see the suffering of these people without having to follow Jesus you seriously lack empathy!

  • Psalm023

    How can a christian ‘fail to stop the abuser’ 6000 miles away? Of course I would do everything to stop someone on the street being attacked or raped, in my own neighborhood.

    There’s a difference between our ‘spiritual’ opinion and our ‘humanistic’ opinion. Our emotions get stirred listening to media; it’s easy to be influenced by the propaganda machines if we want, but a Christian is called to be wise and unprovoked. I trust what God says, and that is to ‘pray’ for Jerusalem, and yes, pray for Palestinians. If I lived there, I might have to engage more directly, but we, in the West, can’t be backseat drivers opining on the injustices of it all and think we can help. The complexities of that area are not just physical but spiritual.

  • Psalm023

    What’s the hope of a Christian? That everyone find salvation in Christ?

    If one spouse is abusing the other in a relationship, how would a pastor respond? He’d minister to both the oppressed and the oppressor. He’d pray for the oppressed and the oppressor, that the oppressor change his ways. He’d be wise as a dove. He obviously wouldn’t ‘enable’ the oppressor, but possibly have to cooperate with authorities if need be, yet still minister to both, and not make judgments in their intimate affairs.

    My take on this subject comes from the ‘faith’ angle.

  • Psalm023

    The Body of Christ has to be very careful with it’s words. Our words will be tested on Judgment Day. What we say may influence angry people to do evil things. How we react might affect the lives of others. If we say we are Christians, then we have a huge responsibility to watch our words carefully and I’m preaching to myself here. If our political opinions or conjectures on foreign affairs aren’t fair, the world notices. How can we be fair about the Middle East? We really have not lived in their shoes.

    If one wants to be a diplomat and State Department Official, then they’ll be able to get all the facts and do their job, but we’ve become too accustomed to listen to knee-jerk reactive news sources who love to condemn and jump to conclusions.

  • I run into it far more often than I’d like, as well. Sometimes it seems unintentional and accidental, sometimes it seems to be lazy shortcuts, and sometimes it seems all too intentional – e.g. “you disagree with my perception of what a good America looks like, therefore you’re anti-America and hate the American people.”

  • Colin Smith

    The Bible is the holy book of the Jews. It is not a tenancy agreement.

  • Stevie D

    Thanks Ben,,,,,one of your most important posts. Challenging but needs to be said.

  • Rev. Andrew R Gentry

    You are right to condemn violence but if you think it is just a matter of a secular state imposing military occupation on an innocent people you are just dead wrong. When asked by a Jewish speaker if a Moslem university student at a California university believed and supported the statement by the leaders of Hamas that Jews should be hunted down wherever they are found and killed she said ‘Yes”! Israel should be condemned for indiscriminate violence but Hamas and other organisations that demand the destruction of Israel and deny the Holacaust ever happened should also be condemned or does your “righteous indignation” apply only to the state of Israel? Being spat upon is one thing but being beheaded is quite another and as far a the little ones I guess being cut in half by a sword as a crowd screams “god is great”is just as demonic as a “turkey shoot” by criminal soldiers who are violating international law. The only difference is the vanilla liberals will defend the sword carriers whilst condemning the soldiers and both are barbarians! Church burning surely you do not want to go there Benjamin or have you forgotten that in Iraq and soon in Syria there will be no churches left period but then again these are acts of frustrated and oppressed people following the religion of piece..a piece there a piece here.

  • I’d like to amplify this point just a little bit: if you take seriously what the Bible says about God giving the land to Israel, then it makes sense that you should also take seriously what the Bible says about God taking the land away from them. All of the invasions, occupations, and conquest are framed in the Biblical narrative as God punishing the nation for its unfaithfulness.

  • I know you don’t write for personal praise, Ben, but I can’t help but think that you’re much braver than me, for being willing to attempt a nuanced approach to what is happening in Israel and Palestine. Maybe I’m just jaded, but I feel like every time I see someone try to say anything about the modern state of Israel, a large portion of the readership is quick to try to shoehorn them into one of two sides, either 100% pro-Israel dispensationalist Evangelical, or 100% anti-Semitic.

  • And from extrabiblical commentary makes it clear that such a narrative represents Israel’s own interpretation of those events.

    This is why the coming of the Holy Spirit is kind of a big deal – it marks the end of exile and the restoration of Israel’s fortunes – only twist is that Gentiles seem to be having these experiences, too. The “land” of the New Covenant is the new heavens and new earth peopled with faithful Jews and Gentiles – the new Israel of God.

  • RandyBarge

    “The only difference is the vanilla liberals will defend the sword carriers…”
    I suspect that vanilla liberals have a lot to answer for in both this world and the next. But I have never heard a liberal defend the religious inspired violence of the Islamist. Most liberals point to Islamist violence as indicative of a diseased religious mind set that commit terrible acts of violence in the name of God. And of course, Islamic terrorist are universally condemned in the west on both the left and the right. The Israeli ocuppiers however, receive near universal support as well as billions of dollars of US aid.

  • xnlover

    So, when God asks from the throne of judgment, “What did you do to help my Palestinian children against my Israeli children who were treating them unjustly?”, you will say, “But God, I was half a world away. What could I do?” And God would say, “Prayer was a start; but you could have elected people to public office who would have ignored the campaign funds from American Jewish sources and who would have passed legislation that censured Israel and sent more relief to the Palestinians. You could have supported the Christian missionaries who were seeking to teach Palestinian children and provide healthcare for Palestinians. You could have encouraged Congress and the President to instruct the US’s United Nations representative to support the many UN resolutions against Israeli abuses of the UN Charter. There were many things you could have done; but instead, you justified your inaction by a misapplication of the details of the Scriptures and an ignoring of the fundamentals: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ If you had been on the receiving end of the kind of abuses the Israelis were perpetrating on the Palestinians, would you be satisfied if people on the other side of the world simply prayed to me on your behalf? Or would you want someone to come and stop the abusers from hurting you?”

  • Timothy Weston

    Thank you for putting this article together. I see a lot of “I stand with Israel” memes from some of the more conservative people on my Facebook feed. I had a very interesting thought: If Jesus were alive today, he would be a wanted figure by the Israeli government. American Christians are used to being in a dominant position and will root for them thinking that it is God’s will.

  • Terri Knoll

    I don’t know if you have heard of Miko Peled (the grandson of one of the founding IDF generals of Israel) but he puts it like this when people attack him for being a self hating Jew or anti-Semite “I support equal human rights for Palestinians (who happen to be Semitic) while you support a genocidal, apartheid state, so what does that make you?” I have quoted him many times because of my pro Palestinian stance as a Christian and now get less of the critics.

  • Terri Knoll

    You really need new propaganda. Yours is full of dinosaur turds.

  • Terri Knoll

    one of the greatest gifts of science is the evidence of DNA. Most of the Palestinians are direct descendants of the Hebrews in “biblical times”. Most of the Jews in Israel are not. So then we are left with that problem, but the U.S. should NOT be supporting the genocide of a whole race of people that really may be “God’s chosen ones” whether they left him or not, based on what could be a bald faced lie.

  • Terri Knoll

    bam! love it.

  • Freethinker

    $3.5 Billion per year at least..

  • Bones

    David Cassidy hey, Now that takes me back.

    I went to Kepnock and am currently teaching near Gin Gin.

    Tried to look up your Twitter but no cigar yet.

  • Freethinker

    You really need to read up on history. Jews and Palestinians lived in peaceful coexistence in Palestine for thousands of years….until May 14, 1948 that is. The conflicts between them no different than in any other area of that part of the Middle East. Basic neighbor, tribal stuff. There is plenty of historical evidence to support this despite the area being predominantly Muslim. All of that changed with the artificial establishment of the state of Israel driven primarily by US led efforts of President Harry Truman (whose reelection campaign was largely funded by a massive financial support of US Jewry on the explicit condition of supporting Zionism). Truman essentially strong armed the UK to “gift” their colony to the Jewish diaspora with the specific mandate of the establishing of a US & British geopolitical stronghold in the area. No peace existed since….or sadly ever will again. All of this is easily verifiable.

  • Brooke Adams

    You served the devil well….congrats.

  • Um, I think I pretty much agree with that? What am I missing, here?

  • That is a genius argument!

  • What? A college student said something horrid and radical! What kind of crazy parallel universe did I wake up in?

  • A radical few? The military of the entire nation?

  • The desert blooming is from Isaiah 35, which describes the aftermath of the destruction of Edom.

  • Brooke Adams

    I thought so too. But as for yours , sadly I feel its the comment of an arrogant, prideful, jackass.

    Though they profess themselves to be wise , they became fools.

  • andre_lefebvre

    First, I agree with being thoughtful and discerning. It’s much needed if we’re to find a sustainable position that doesn’t violate common sense and conscience. However I question – and even challenge – the “headers” and declarations you make, Benjamin. Google is there for all to research and listen to ALL sides in this mess. And I mean ALL, because this isn’t Israel vs Palestinians, but Israel vs the Arab world.

    There was some kind of peace in the Middle-East for quite a while? Arabs have always been at war against one another. Land was purchased and handed over to Jews. Arabs attacked them trying to eradicate them, as if no transactions had occurred. So you had extremists on the side of Israelis who were standing against this onslaught. It had little to do with the land, and a lot to do with their nationality.

    The rise of Zionism holds extreme views, but no genocide. The very essence of Arab rhetoric for decades has always been the complete ownership of the land of Israel, along with all the Hebrew historical landmarks.

    When a Jewish settler commits a crime against a Palestinian family to try and steal their land and homes, that is a crime that should be punished. And this is where I part with the “support Israel” campaign.

    Yes, I see Palestinians acting as if they are in a prison ward, and I see the IDF needing to protect its people. The whole thing is at an impasse, and I tremble for my friends in Israel who will be on the receiving end of a type of social guerilla that brought back terrir on the streets. But demonizing Israel is very naive, imho. We have to freeze-frame and look at the extent of the schemes at play. Why have Jordanians been abandoned by their government for decades in the West Bank, and countless refugee camps strewn about on the Arab landscape?

    The greatest enemy of the Arab is not Israel – it;s another Arab, and that is very clearly demonstrated daily. We would like – as westerners – to rationalize who started what, who should do this or that to get a peaceful result. But that’s missing the point that we don’t understand very well – still today – the Middle-Eastern mindset, and over 35 centuries of History between them.

    Checkpoints are usually located on the way to Jerusalem, so Palestinians can travel anywhere without them, except direct access to Jerusalem, unless they are searching for yet another murderer, or person of interest. The IDF gets taunted a lot for doing their job. People are not their government, so to use the term “Israel does this or that” is misleading. One only has to find news items from various sources to get a better picture.

    I stand for equal rights for Palestinians, and pray their leaders would stop encouraging violence, while these same leaders misuse the fortune given in aid to help Palestinians build or rebuild their cities and infrastructures. And many Israelis and Jews and Palestinians have no ill will toward one another, but there is history so some may be suspicious.

  • Usayd A Maraq

    ridiculous…let me get this straight…you i assume are christian…you also believe that Jesus is part of the Trinity which also makes him God…it is well known that the jews convinced the romans to kill Jesus and he indeed was one of their own…so how could Jesus/God favor the very nation that had him crucified???

  • Freethinker

    it was in reply to the following ” We don’t know what they would do if Jews and Palestinians lived in peace, and we’re unlikely to find out….”
    So we do know from relatively recent history prior to 48…the problem is that there is now an apartheid state in place with the overwhelming majority of Israelis adamant about never slowing the racial extermination until the last Palestinian is driven off the land “promised” to them by their imaginary sky wizard, ergo, no peace ever.

  • Freethinker

    seriously?……please provide a single example of an Israeli being “oppressed and abused” by a Palestinian. Also…are you aware that there is only one army in this equation not two? David vs Goliath analogy would be a colossal understatement here.

  • Charlton Wilson

    “In 1948, this land was given to the Israelis by Britain, who owned this land prior to that.”

    This statement is UNTRUE/INCORRECT. [You choose] Britain did not OWN the land.

    Not in any particular order, the following come to mind.

    1. Britain did not own the land and therefore had NO RIGHT to give the land to the Israelis.

    2. A CONDITION given by Britain in the letter from Balfour on behalf of HMG to Rothschild was as follows: “…it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine,…” [forgot about that part, did you?] DOH!!

    3. There is no semblance between spiritual Israel of the Old Testament and the political Israel of today. MOST Israelis are NOT Semitic Jews and as such have ABSOLUTELY no ancient right to the land.

    4. When the Jews fled Jerusalem in 70AD, the land became ‘terra nullius’. The next inhabitants of the land then became the new OWNERS of the land.

    5. MOST of the world does not recognise ‘God’ and as such, what is in the Scriptures is not recognised under International Law.

    6. Conquering of land became illegal under International Law in 1923(ish) (not that Israel has ever given a damn about International Law, except when it suits itself).

    7. After the Jews broke the Covenant with God, I don’t recall God ever promising the land to Israel ever again. [Please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong here].

    8. Tell me again, WHO was Israel in the Old Testament?

  • Freethinker

    You are misinformed or naive. The US government has never been in favor of a 2 state solution. A mere suggestion of this is enough to ensure you will not get re-elected. Obama made the mistake of stating it once and basically retracted. Israel will never offer a 2 state solution because they demand that all of Israel is owned by them in totality as promised by their mythical sky wizard, America being their lap dog will do what they have always done, veto every resolution on 2 states in the UN and pretend to support “peace negotiations” which will never produce anything as every single day Israel annexes/steals more land from the Palestinians, buldozes their homes and builds more settlements many of which are directly funded by the United States yearly “gift” to Israel of around 3.5 Billion $ of US taxpayers money. The US public is brainwashed into an unquestioning support for Israel mostly because of the fact that Christianity is de facto a Jewish cult with the same source material just slightly different customs and disagreements over prophets. There is also a system in place whereby anyone criticizing anything to do with Israel is instantly branded as antisemitic regardless of facts. As long as the US has the UN veto power absolutely nothing will change in this situation.

  • Charlton Wilson

    After the Jews broke the Covenant with God in which He gave them the land, can you please show me where God ever again promised them the land in any subsequent Covenant?

    Also, If we are to take Biblical understanding as our base, then ass I understand it, those who are in Christ are the NEW chosen ones and the NEW Israel.

    Further, the Bible and history together are quite clear that the Christ returned [as Vespasian’s army] in in 70AD in judgement of Israel and meted out His wrath by destroying the ‘world [the Temple].

    Therefore, Jesus is NOT coming back as He has already been and in fulfilment of the Scriptures, just as He said He would in HIS generation.

  • Freethinker

    Benjamin, thank you for the courage of writing this article particularly in light of the fact that we live in a world where a mere mention of criticism of Israel in any form is automatically branded anti-Semitic.

  • KIZMET
  • Matthew

    I agree, it does depend on what group of Muslims one talks to. Sadly, though, the secular more liberal Muslims don´t seem to be controlling or driving the international discussion. It seems, with each passing day, that the extremists who are driven by a conservative religious ideology are getting the lion´s share of the power.

  • Matthew

    It´s been my observation that what you say is EXACTLY how it is. Those of us attempting to find a middle ground, or as you say a more nuanced position, have no sanctuary really.

  • Matthew

    Have you investigated the research done by Harry Ostrer of New York University? I´m just beginning to.

    Also, even if some (or many) Jews in the land today are not linked to biblical Israel or are simply converts whose ancestors came from another geographical location (like central Asia for example), is it wrong for them to want a place on this earth free from persecution and harm? History seems to indicate that whether secular or religious, whether convert of direct descendant of Moses himself, Jews have no where to hide.

    Once again, this does not mean I 100% blindly support the way Israel (the modern state) is currently handling things in the land.

  • Bones

    You only need to look out the Palestinian power bases to know that’s not true. Fatah aren’t Muslim extremists.and govern the West Bank. In fact when Arafat was leader of the PLO we never heard of Islamic terrorism but Arab terrorists or Arab Nationalists. The hijackers of Entebbe and the terrorists at Munich were known as Arab Nationalists – not Muslim extremists.

    This wasn’t and isn’t a religious conflict.

    It is political.

    It was the encouragement of Islamic extremists such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad by the West including Israel to create division in the Palestinian nationalist movement which has given rise to what is now known as Islamic terrorism.

    One things for sure, if Fatah and Abbas are powerless to help their people against Israeli aggression, the people will turn to Hamas who has made it known in Gaza that they will fight.

  • Bones

    Of course there’s a middle ground.

    There needs to be room for Israel and Palestine. No one is saying Israel shouldn’t exist besides some nutbags.

    The modern state of Israel is liberal, secular and accommodates homosexuals.

    That doesn’t mean that it’s policies (like the US or my own country’s) are above criticism.

    What we’re seeking is a reworking of Christian narrative from a wholesale support of Israel to a wholesale support of the oppressed and peace.

  • Bones

    Well given the West’s reluctance to take on migrants, how would you feel if a large migrant population came and took over your cities?

    Israel’s campaign against the Brits was based on terrorism which people have largely forgotten and forced the Brits out of Palestine.

    That’s all history now and Israel triumphed and is a successful secular state.

    The only way the Palestinian question can be resolved will be like the Irish Troubles where Britain told the Protestants to support peace or they were by themselves. There was no way nutters like Rev Paisley would ever countenance unity with Roman Catholics whom he saw as Satanic.

    The US needs to do the same but is too scared of the Right and the pro-Israel lobby.

    Let’s remember of course that this month marks the 20th anniversary of the tragic assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, a man who was a peacemaker and paid for that with his life.

    And not from a Muslim.

  • Bones

    Jewish terrorism was a major part in the Brits leaving Palestine. They were leaving it for the UN to sort out.

  • Matthew

    Good points Bones … especially about Rabin. This stuff is all theological really. If we could get our theology straight (mainly evangelical Christian theology), things would indeed fall into political and social line I think.

    One thing though … you said:

    “Well given the West’s reluctance to take on migrants, how would you feel if a large migrant population came and took over your cities?”

    Apparently you haven´t heard of the progressive immigration policies of the country I currently live in here in Western Europe.

  • Ron Geib

    Agreed, in large part, with you Ben. I spent more than a year, living in Bethlehem, learning to know the Palestinians, both Christian and Muslim, and trying to better understand the situation. It is very nuanced, and once one begins using statistics, facts, and anecdotes, those who differ, will likely have an arsenal of their own to fire back with. Neither side has a monopoly on the truth or moral high ground.

    There are many lenses through which to critique the situation. While writing the above article, you appear to have been viewing through the lens of justice. I find that, no matter how convincing an argument one might build around the justice issue in the conflict, theology or prophecy hold the trump cards. Two days after the discussion, many persons will get a confused look on their face, as they say, “But wait a minute, God promised that land to Abraham’s descendants, forever, in Genesis, and commands that we bless them in their endeavor to fulfill God’s promise, right?”

    I would encourage you to follow up with a sequel that engages directly with the theology that leads many Evangelicals to support Israel.

    I also believe that, if there is ever to be peace in the P/I conflict, it needs to begin with the followers of Christ that are subsets of the communities on either side of the conflict. Highly recommend the book, “Through My Enemy’s Eyes,” by Salim Munayer and Lisa Loden, representatives of the Palestinian Christian and Israeli Messianic believer communities.

    God Bless,

  • Matthew

    Food for thought. Thanks again.

  • Matthew

    Can you talk more about this division in the Palestinian nationalist movement from your personal perspective? How and why did it happen do you think?

  • I quite agree. Many who support Israel would say they are taking a stand for Jesus. It helps no one to insist on an us and them scenario whatever you feel about ‘them’. When Jesus was asked if the Jews should pay taxes to Caesar he simply pointed out where the currency originated. When a brother was asking Jesus to compel his brother to be fair Jesus questioned the offended brother.

    Jesus doesn’t need Ben to be standing with him. He’s not even attacking those who are pro Israel. He’s simply stating his case for rejecting the notion that it is the Christian thing to do to support Israel. When this article is used to attack those who take a different view it has no value and becomes counter productive.

  • Rev. Andrew R Gentry

    Your sophomoric condenscion is irrelevant what is relevant is that you did not condemn the leadership of Hamas for calling for genocide against the Jews. I guess using your comment one can dismiss the photo of a giant banner held at a recent soccer match in Egypt that read “We need a new holocaust!” ah those crazy kids!

  • janbn

    Too bad you felt that you needed to resort to insults.

  • janbn

    I am Jewish and I completely agree not only with Benjamin Corey but with Miko Peled and other Israelis and diaspora Jews who believe that never again is for everyone. I have just sent this article on to a friend who is studying in seminary and hope that she forwards it to others in her seminary. Israel has to be called to account for its decades of brutality against the Palestiinians, a people who bore no responsibility for the anti-Semitism in Europe that made a group of atheist Zionists in Europe in the late 1800s to decide that the Jews needed a homeland in Palestine. They did not base their claim to the land on the Bible but neither did they take into consideration that there was already another people on the land who might not take kindly to another people taking over their homes and lands. I don’t know if there is any hope for the future but the path that Israel is now taking can only lead to tragedy for both Jews, Christians and Muslims.

  • janbn

    Maybe you don’t understand it but Hamas came into being only after 20 years of Israel’s brutal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Lets examine what happened to Palestinians from the start of the occupation in 1967. Israel imprisoned and often tortured many hundreds of Palestinians, deported hundreds to Jordan, took Palestinian lands for the settlements which spread like a virulent cancer the territories, took the lion’s share of the water, shut down Palestinian schools and newspapers, forbid Palestinians from building or adding on to their homes, something that still exists, demolished thousands of Palestinian homes, forced Palestinians to get a permit from the military occupiers to plant so much as one tomato plant, arrested or shot anyone, even a child, seen with a Palestinian flag.

    In 1983 Mubarak Awad, a Jerusalem born Palestinian American Christian, came to the West Bank where he established the Palestine Centre for the Teaching of Non-Violence. Now one might think that the Israelis would welcome non-violent protest. But they would be wrong. Dead wrong. Israel wanted no opposition to its brutal occupation. In spite of protests from the Reagan state department, Awad wad deported back to America.

    Around the same time government aligned right wing settlers put bombs in the cars of the mayors of three West Bank towns. These mayors had also been advocates for non-violence. When the bombs exploded, two of the mayors lost their legs and the third was badly injured.

    Israel gave out the message. You will never get freedom from us no matter what you do. Hamas, is the creature of the damned, accursed occupation. Their hatred of Jews is understandable. I remember as a young person hating every German and wanting them all dead. All the Jews I knew, including adults, felt the same way. I know that even today there are Jews who still hate Germans for what they did.

    This hatred can die away but for that to happen there has to be an end to the occupation and justice for the Palestinians. The ball is in the court of Israel.

  • janbn

    Maybe you aren’t aware of the right wing rallies in Israel calling for “death to the Arabs.” Have you not heard the chants of right wing Israelis who go through the Arab sections of Jerusalem on Jerusalem Day holding their Israeli flags while screaming “Death to the Arabs” and writing those same words on the Arab homes? Maybe you missed that.

  • janbn

    I think that you have been reading too much Zionist propaganda. First of all the land wasn’t given to the Jews by the British. The British were given a mandate for the land after World War ! and the defeat of the Ottoman Empire. A mandate does not mean that they own the land. During World War 1, in exchange for helping to get the US to come to the aid of Britain and as a favor to Chaim Weizmann, Lord Balfour wrote the Balfour Document. One might ask by what right does one country have the right to give away the land of others? At the time of the Balfour Document Jews were only a small percentage of the population of Palestine.

    Now let me address your falsehood that the land was barren. Yes, parts of the land were barren but here is what Zionist Asher Ginsberg, later known as Ahad Ha’am, wrote in 1891 after traveling throughout Palestine. His perspective is much different from the oft quoted Mark Twain. Here are the words of Ahad Ha’am.

    “We who live abroad are accustomed to believe that almost all Eretz Yisrael is now uninhabited desert and whoever wishes can buy land there as he pleases. But this is not true. It is very difficult to find in the land [ha’aretz] cultivated fields that are not used for planting”

    Here is what Ha’am wrote about the way his fellow Jews who were colonizing Palestine treated the Arabs, the people he called the native peoples.

    “We must surely learn, from both our past and present history, how careful we must be not to provoke the anger of the native people by doing them wrong, how we should be cautious in our dealings with a foreign people among whom we returned to live, to handle these people with love and respect and, needless to say, with justice and good judgment. And what do our brothers do? Exactly the opposite! They were slaves in their Diasporas, and suddenly they find themselves with unlimited freedom, wild freedom that only a country like Turkey [the Ottoman Empire] can offer. This sudden change has planted despotic tendencies in their hearts, as always happens to former slaves [‘eved ki yimlokh – when a slave becomes king – Proverbs 30:22]. They deal with the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, trespass unjustly, beat them shamefully for no sufficient reason, and even boast about their actions. There is no one to stop the flood and put an end to this despicable and dangerous tendency.”

    Put away Mark Twain and the Hasbara propagnda. I once believed as you did until I educated myself..

  • Well, I am probably a jackass, unfortunately. But I do know the difference between making an actual point and just making an assertion.

  • janbn

    Actually there wasn’t much talk of a two-state solution until it became an impossibility. The settlement project that began in the 1970s was designed to thwart such a possibility. If the United States had really favored a two state solution that would have been a real state, and not a statelet under the boot of Israel, they would have long ago ended all support for Israel, both monitarily and diplomatically, until that occupation ended. Meanwhile with the tacit support of the US, the occupaton and the settlements have entrenched themselves. It seems that the only way that this will come to an end is if the world community and the United States treat israel in the same manner as apartheid South Africa was treated with boycotts and sanctions.

  • Bones

    By the West, I was generalising about Australia, USA, UK, even European countries such as Hungary.

    But yeah, Germany and Greece are taking in their share.

  • Bones

    Following the Six-Day War in 1967, Israel takes over the administration of the West Bank and Gaza. Whereas Egyptian President Gamal Abddul Nasser had been tough on Islamist militants (see 1954-1970), Israel is much more permissive. One of their first actions is to release Sheikh Ahmed Yassin from prison. Yassin, a charismatic radical Islamist and the future founder of Hamas had been jailed in 1965 during one of Nasser’s crackdowns. [DREYFUSS, 2005, PP. 195] David Shipler, a former New York Times reporter, later recounts that he was told by the military governor of the Gaza Strip, Brigadier General Yitzhak Segev, that the Israeli government had financed the Islamic movement to couteract the PLO and the communists. According to Martha Kessler, a senior analyst for the CIA, “we saw Israel cultivate Islam as a counterweight to Palestinian nationalism.” In the 1970s, Yassin is able to form some Islamic organizations (see 1973-1978). In the 1980s, he forms Hamas as the military arm of his organizations (see 1987). [DREYFUSS, 2005, PP. 195, 197, 198]

    In 1973 Israeli military authorities in charge of the West Bank and Gaza allow Sheikh Ahmed Yassin to establish the Islamic Center, an Islamic fundamentalist organization. With Israel’s support, Yassin’s organization soon gains control of hundreds of mosques, charities, and schools which serve as recruiting centers for militant Islamic fundamentalism. In 1976 Yassin creates another organization called the Islamic Association that forms hundreds of branches in Gaza. In 1978 the Islamic Association is licensed by the government of Menachem Begin over the objections of moderate Palesinians including the Commissioner of the Muslim Waqf in the Gaza Strip, Rafat Abu Shaban. Yassin also recieves funding from business leaders in Saudi Arabia who are also hostile to the secular PLO for religious reasons. The Saudi government, however, steps in and attempts to halt the private funds going to Yassin, because they view him as a tool of Israel. [UNITED PRESS INTERNATIONAL, 2/24/2001; COUNTERPUNCH, 1/18/2003; DREYFUSS, 2005, PP. 195 – 197] Yassin will go on to form Hamas in the 1980s, which is created with the help of Israeli intelligence (see 1987).

    Sheikh Ahmed Yassin forms Hamas as the military arm of his Islamic Association, which had been licensed by Israel ten years earlier (see 1973-1978). According to Charles Freeman, a former US ambassador to Saudi Arabia, “Israel started Hamas. It was a project of Shin Bet, which had a feeling that they could use it to hem in the PLO.” [COUNTERPUNCH, 1/18/2003; DREYFUSS, 2005, PP. 191, 208] Anthony Cordesman, a Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic Studies, states that Israel “aided Hamas directly—the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO.” A former senior CIA official speaking to UPI describes Israel’s support for Hamas as “a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative.” Further, according to an unnamed US government official, “the thinking on the part of some of the right-wing Israeli establishment was that Hamas and the other groups, if they gained control, would refuse to have anything to do with the peace process and would torpedo any agreements put in place.” Larry Johnson, a counterterrorism official at the State Department, states: “The Israelis are their own worst enemies when it comes to fighting terrorism. They are like a guy who sets fire to his hair and then tries to put it out by hitting it with a hammer. They do more to incite and sustain terrorism than curb it.”[UNITED PRESS INTERNATIONAL, 2/24/2001 SOURCES: LARRY C. JOHNSON, UNNAMED FORMER CIA OFFICIAL]

  • Bones

    “I said the Jews have been at war for thousands of years.”

    Apart from 132CE to 1948CE.

    And I’m not quite sure how much they resisted against the other occupiers. They did welcome King Cyrus of Persia as a liberator, the initial messiah, see Immanuel (Isaiah 7) Sure there was the Maccabean revolt against the Seleucid Empire and insurrections against the Romans (70CE, 132CE) which were put down quite easily and ruthlessly.

    The early Canaanite genocides are much more of fiction and legend status than anything historical. It’s simply a reworking of Israel’s importance as a nation which claimed itself to be the ‘Chosen Ones’ while in Exile.

    Revelation has nothing to do with the future.

  • Rev. Andrew R Gentry

    I have and do condemn the crimes of the IDF and I have and do condemn the Israeli government for many of its measures against the Palestinians as I do the crimes of Hamas and other Islamic movements. Jewish fundamentalists crying “death to Arabs” is reprehensible as is Hamas and its call for murder of Jews. Hatred is hatred and the violence it spawns is repetitive and expansive and cannot ever be justified. But regardless of history or your interpretation of it as it relates to the creation of the State of Israel the fact remains that Israel will continue to exist and do so despite Iranian or Iraqi or Saudi or any other Moslem call or effort for its destruction. There are only two choices. Either a two state reality that recognises the other’s right to exist and be free from terrorism or invasion or the first all out nuclear war.

  • That is an essentially accurate account.

    However, it’s worse than that. The name “Palestine” was purposed to not only erase Israel’s memory of the region, but to humiliate the Jews who laid claim to it. Oddly, that historically ignorant and anti-Semitic sentiment has remained, and only those with no understanding, or appreciation of history, continue to promulgate that Israelis are “militant occupiers.”

    Well, they could be more accurate referred to as “militant re-occupiers.”

    Only Israel is condemned for defending itself from it’s enemies. That condemnation comes directly from the circle of Hell.

  • What den of iniquity did you crawl out of Mr. Dr. Corey?

    Your “enlightenment” is nothing more than a demonic, if not banal justification to indulge in antisemitism.

    Israel is not an ecumenical, Garden of Eden, for sure, but that doesn’t mean that God is not favoring Israel, or that the OT isn’t explicit about the blessings due to those that bless Israel (with no distinction between nationality, religion, or race), and the curses due those that curse Israel.

    So far, it’s evident you are in the “curse Israel” category. Good luck with that.

  • Bones

    Criticising Israel is not anti-semitism any more than the prophets or Jesus were.

    Israel is a political entity and its policies are as open to scrutiny as the US, UK, Canada or Iran’s.

    No political entity is above criticism.

  • The title of Mr. Corey’s blog post read, “5 Reasons Why I’m A Christian Who Stopped Supporting Israel.”

    It doesn’t read, “5 Criticisms of Israel.”

    Criticizing Israel is not the same as “not supporting it.”

    In Mr. Corey’s case, he not only criticizes Israel, but he blames Israel, denies Israel’s right to exist, and otherwise, for all practical purposes is a holocaust denier.

    Mr. Corey has gone beyond a merely political disagreement. He is fundamentally anti-Israel.

  • Bones

    You read what you want to read.

    “I love the Jewish people because as a Jesus follower, I love all people. But I do not– I cannot– support Israel as a nation, precisely because I love all people.”

    You mind telling me where he denies Israel’s right to exist?

    These are the hysterical rants of the pro-Israel movement hiding behind the holocaust to justify oppression to others including Palestinian Christians.

    “Criticizing Israel is not the same as “not supporting it.””

    Dude, I love the US but I hate your foreign policies especially the Iraq War which was one of the biggest tragic blunders in history. And there’s no way I supported that. Ever. Plus your policies in Latin America and Vietnam which brought misery and dictatorships to countless people.

    You need to get over it.

    If you can’t handle criticism of countries, including Israel, then take it up with Jesus and the prophets who by your own logic are anti-semitic.

  • Matthew

    Thanks so much for the comprehensive response Bones. I had no idea really. More food for thought.

  • Ron Geib

    Thanks. I missed that one!

  • I have no problem ‘handling criticism.’ I’m simply stating the obvious, that Mr. Corey’s fundamental positions are antisemitic.

    And your “I love America, but hate x, y, and z, but still love America” bilge is the ‘cake and eat it’ method of justifying a lie.

  • Rev_Rock

    How about you get a clue as to who the inhabitants of modern-day “Israel” are? They are NOT Hebrew people, by and large. They are Europeans! If you had half a clue of the biblical history of Israel, you would know that God

    surely, absolutely, and finally, judged the nation of Israel in 70 AD. Israel as defined by the Old Testament ceased to exist as a nation forevermore. Look at Jesus’ parables of their destruction in Matt. 21 & 22 and tell me where Jesus shows that they would return after their destruction. It’s not there. He plainly told them that the Kingdom of God would be taken from them and given to others who would produce the fruit of it that Israel failed to do.

  • Rev_Rock

    And how did he do that? Jesus, Himself, pronounced the worst judgements on Israel in the history of the nation. Was He serving the devil too? You might just want to look into the things He told that “brood of vipers”!

  • Bones

    Then you’re an idiot.

  • I don’t know what internet site you bought your ordination from, “Rev.” but we can all look forward to the day when your education source becomes accredited. Hope springs eternal. Until then, why not study from more established, respectable, and theologically mainstream sources.

  • Silverfox

    I went looking….I had to change some of my ideas, maybe you will too….I googled Brittan and Israel…….I came up with “Myths and Facts”. I tried to give the location so you also could compare what you know against this. For some reason it didn’t take…….it claimed not to find the page for me, but the page is in the back ground and I could not access it. I will give it again, perhaps it will work for you;

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFmandate.html

  • freespeechfan

    Thank you for your courage in speaking the unpopular truth. I’ve been there, and know firsthand the horrors of Israeli apartheid. It will take American Christian action for anything to change, so please keep using your voice toward justice for the Palestinian people. We give over 8 million dollars a day to Israel to fund oppression, and it is shameful.

  • Matthew

    We’ve got to view “The Israel of God” from a spiritual, new testament perspective. The biblical order of God is clear: First the natural then the spiritual (1Cor15:46). God gave us the natural nation of Israel as a type and Shadow of the how the church should function as a Holy Nation.

    This is not replacement theology. The church did not replace Israel – it existed in God long before there ever was a natural Israel. We (the church not Israel) have been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the World (Eph 1:4).

    Check out the Initial promise to Abraham – Paul points out to us that this goes way beyond the natural nation:

    GALATIANS 3:16-18
    (16) Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “AND TO YOUR SEED,” who is Christ.
    (17) And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.
    (18) For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

    We are the Seed of Christ, the chosen people to whom this promise was made.

    ROMANS 2:28,29
    For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

    Under grace we, the church, are referenced to as the true “jews” of God – i.e the chosen people of God. The above passage shows that its not about externalities such as race, bloodline, or nationality, but rather a deeper spiritual reality of the heart, by the Spirit.

    Bless you
    @JayPalmquist:disqus @rev_rock:disqus @benjaminlcorey:disqus

  • Michiel de Jong

    You stopped supporting Israel, because you realized “that loving the Jewish people differs from supporting the secular state of Israel”. Congratulations with your discovery. It obviously took you a while to solve some of your confusion. And now, “because you love all people you cannot support Israel as a Christian”.
    … It seems that there is still a lot of confusion left…
    Although I am not a “conservative evangelical” I am quite sure that, when those evangelicals mention their support of Israel, their prime concern is the Jewish people, not the Jewish state. So maybe you had this confusion, but I doubt whether they have it. It looks as if you are projecting your own confusion on them. But this is peanuts in comparison with some of your other obvious misconceptions.
    One of them being the role of the state in relation to the people and to what extend a Christian should support a state at all, in general.
    It might be good to point out what Jesus have to say, as you said you take him seriously. Although Jesus makes it very clear that his kingdom is not of this earth and although he portraits the earthly ‘kingdoms’ very negatively, he still respected their authority and their rights on taxation and obedience. And in case you take Paul seriously as well,.. Paul recognized the right of the state to use force in order to protect the population against those who threaten them. He clearly considered the authority of the occupying Roman Empire as legitimate. It might be telling that the first European man to convert to Christianity, happened to be a roman soldier and there is no indication whatsoever that he was under any pressure to quit his job, notwithstanding the evil portrayal of his employer, by the apostle John.For this and other reasons the basic attitude of Christians towards the state has always been (or should always have been), respect it, obey it, as citizen, but keep it at arms lengths from the church because its power is often evil. This is valid for every state, including the state of Israel.
    And although there is no obligation to actively support the state as a Christian, there is however often much reason to do so. For one, there is no alternative to the power of the state to maintain law and order. That is especially valid for Israel. Take the power of the state of Israel out of the equation, as you obviously prefer, and there will be no Jewish people left to love in that region. They are either dead or swimming to the shores of Europe.
    You said you love the Jewish people, but you prefer to leave them without protection,… I have considered this nonsensical position to be the result of misguided confusion, but that can’t be the case. The analysis of your remaining reasons clearly indicates an intention to misrepresent the facts.
    Something evil is brewing here.

  • goonersamuel

    What military acts with a pure ethic? Name one military operation undertaken that has not engaged in gross human rights violations? While I am not a fan of Israeli occupation, it is rather arrogant of you to sit at your keyboard and suggest that there are no legitimate security reasons for Israel’s actions

  • SamHamilton

    I don’t “support Israel.” And I don’t “support the Palestinians” either. Both sides in this conflict do things that are reprehensible and worthy of condemnation and there are people working for peace on both sides. Both sides have moral agency and can choose how to react to other people’s acts of aggression.

  • I don’t recall suggesting that, but the article is not about the actions of a “radical few.” It’s a national policy.

  • JD

    The comment section here is a great example of what is wrong with American Christianity and why we can’t actually address real issues within the church, especially when Israel is concerned. Any criticism of Israel is immediately met with accusations of antisemitism or heresy. We see the same emotional knee-jerk reaction when American gun culture is brought up. It shuts down dialogue, and we go nowhere.

    Ben raised extremely valid points. You may disagree with them, but not blindly supporting Israel is not antisemitic. But we can’t discuss the roots of the problem because people dig their heels in at extreme positions, spew venom towards the other side, then wonder why the world sees American Christianity as angry and looking nothing like Christ.

  • Ian Nairn

    This is pure Anti-Semitism. The fact that you are denying that Israel has any claims to the land is absolutely ridiculous. You say that the “Palestinians”, who BTW have never been a nation on the face of this earth, lived under peace before the Jews showed up is historical whitewashing. Arabs were under the rule of the Ottoman Turks before the British and they were not treated all that well, which is typical for a ruling Islamic nation. First they said to the Jews in Europe, “Go back to Palestine”, now they are saying “get out of Palestine”. You are basically following every thing Anti-Semites say about Jews and the Nation of Israel. IF boggles the mind that you are taking Palestinian lies as face value when they have been proven as lies time and again. There is no occupation and there is no apartheid. If you want examples of apartheid just look at how the Palestinian Arabs are treat in places like Syria and Lebanon, where they are literally second class citizens. Arabs in Israel have full rights as everyone else there. I am disturbed that you have fallen for Pallywood.

  • Yep.

  • Sun Tzu

    So you condone the israeli policy of subjugating the Palestinian Christians you are a hypocrite.

  • It’s not really bravery, it’s just that I don’t have anything that I’m afraid of losing– so there’s little risk keeping me from saying what needs to be said.

  • No Palestinian lies here, just someone who listens to the cries of my Christian brothers and sisters who suffer under Israel’s brutality. Likewise, it boggles the mind why someone would sell out their own people– the true seed of Abraham, in order to follow John Nelson Darby, as you have done.

  • I disagree. When most evangelicals support Israel it’s not out of a love for Jewish people at all, but the actual state of Israel because they think it ushers in the end times. In their worldview, most of the Jewish people are just going to be slaughtered.

  • Ian Nairn

    If your going to rely on Propaganda, your doing wrong, even if you relying on far left Australian Propaganda. The so called story on “Israeli torture” was so wrong that i can’t believe you even used it.
    http://blog.camera.org/archives/2014/02/post_124.html
    http://israelissueswa.blogspot.com.au/2014/02/abc-four-corners-on-israel-evil-and.html
    http://www.jewishnews.net.au/israeli-embassy-blasts-four-corners-report/34084

  • goonersamuel

    And what specific national policy does the author point to in justification of his argument? He references the occupation and cites the lack of funding for Christian schools. Instead of critiquing the occupation as a whole he merely uses anecdotal evidence to discredit the occupation. He ignores almost all political history in his approach to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. You and the author have failed to present any evidence of a military policy. The author only makes references to the occupation, but refuses to explore why there is an occupation. Instead the author chooses to use the actions of a radical few: soldiers engaging in sick acts of violence, Israelis spitting on Christians, etc. He does all this while completely ignoring the atrocities committed by Palestinians. His article might even imply that Palestinians are more tolerant of Christians, which might have been true during the Mandatory period and even as late as the 80s, but doesn’t appear to be the case today.

  • Of course. Those pesky Christians, Arabs, and Muslims need to just behead themselves to save time, after being too stupid to move out of an area being accidentally, and yet repeatedly, bombed by Hamas. You know, some people are too dumb to breathe …or breed for that matter.

  • JD

    Yes, because a random blog and sites called “israelissues” and “jewishnews” are clearly above being biased.

    I’m just not sure why some seem utterly incapable of recognizing that the political state of Israel bears some of the responsibility in this mess. Are the Palestinians blameless? No. Do they resort to terrorist tactics? Yes. Is Israel blameless? No. Do they resort to terrorist tactics? Yes.

    I’ve said it numerous times already. It’s not our job to pick sides in a battle between two sides answering evil with evil. As followers of Christ, it’s our job to be an instrument of healing and reconciliation. We shouldn’t be cheering on the murder of those that bear the image of our Creator, Jew or Muslim. We are to be peacemakers. We are to be a refuge for the broken.

  • JD

    There’s nothing Christian about the vile things you’ve been spewing here. Please stop.

  • A major part of being a legitimate Christian is spiritually supporting Israel, and trusting that she is working under the limitations and guidance of God himself. Short of that, and we get the misunderstanding and misguidance offered by the antisemitic Mr. Dr. Corey.

    There’s no such thing as an informed Christian that does not also support Israel, and understand it’s survival is constantly under attack …with the help of Mr. Dr. Corey, I might add.

    So, until you’re ready to support both Christians AND Jews, you should not bother to troll my comments. BTW, your username sounds like a personal problem. What’s your real name? Very brave otherwise of you.

  • Montelatici

    Don’t have any religious opinion, but it is just fact that a bunch of Europeans that happened to be of the Jewish faith went to Palestine and evicted the Christians and Muslims living there to create a Jewish state. Whether that was wrong or right is a matter of opinion.

  • Bones

    Except the Bible contradicts you.

    Too bad for you then.

    Maybe you need to troll the Bible and moan how antisemitic it is.

    No authentic Christian supports oppression.

  • Bones

    My friend is the parish priest of Ramallah on the West Bank.

    I have first hand information.

  • Jack Beans

    Some so called “Jews” are being anti-Semitic themselves. That sounded weird but if you are against the Palestinians, doesnt it make you an anti-Semite too? What, you didnt know Palestinians were also Semites? They are descendants from Abraham’s first born son Ismael. The European Jews are not the Biblical Jews. They are converted Jews…of German ancestry.

  • nabil89

    As a Lebanese Palestinian Christian living in Lebanon, I thank you for your courage in speaking the truth. Thank you!

  • Except that his article doesn’t ignore the atrocities of the Palestinians. I kind of feel like you’re just generally ranting, and I’m having trouble pinpointing the focus of your critique. Is it that you feel there are good reasons for the Occupation that the article leaves unmentioned? Is it that you feel like the Occupation isn’t really that bad, but by focusing on bad behavior by some soldiers, there’s an equivocation going on there?

    I mean, Israel captured the Golan Heights in the Six Day War, and no nation recognizes it as legally occupied territory. In Har Homa, Israel cut down all the trees and forbade any Palestinian presence. in 2011-2012, there were over 500 attacks on Palestinians by Israeli settlers. So, to say that this is all the actions of a “radical few” is a serious misnomer. I think you need to let that part of your critique go.

  • Jewell

    Thank you for this article. This topic has been weighing on my mind for some time now, but like many other things in the evangelical church, support of Israel is a “sacred cow” that cannot be criticized lest you be labeled “anti-Semitic.” Good food for thought.

  • Jewell

    I suggest a book called, Zion’s Christian Soldiers?, by Stephen Sizer. It explains this very well. You are basing your ideas on church indoctrination and not fact.

  • Michiel de Jong

    Tell me, .. why is an increasing number of Christian Palestinians joining the IDF in Israel? This fact totally contradicts your narrative on all points.

  • JD
  • Michiel de Jong

    What is it what you don’t understand? I am not talking about opinions, or statements,…. I am talking about numbers and facts…
    (Maybe a new concept for you and a lot of others here..)

  • Michiel de Jong

    Wrong. Evangelical theology foresees a mass conversion of the Jewish people in the end time,… ‘slightly’ different from your slaughtering. And from all main branches of Christianity (Catholicism, Protestantism, Evangelicals) the later has the most objections against institutes of worldly power and especially against the state.
    Where did you get your facts from?

  • JD

    Why the hostility and condescension in your response? You say you are talking about numbers, yet you gave no numbers. You say you are talking about facts, but you gave no support of the statements you claim are “fact”. You simply made some statements without any supporting evidence. Christian Palestinians may be joining IDF in increasing numbers. I pray they aren’t, but I also pray Christians don’t join the US military (or any military for that matter) either.

    But, you made a claim and provided no support. Where is your support for your claim? I’m not saying you are wrong, but right now you’ve done nothing to actually support the claim. Your claim would indicate that young Christians are rejecting the calls of the church leaders in the area. Do you have evidence to support that?

  • JD

    Okay, I did some digging around and found this: http://time.com/15479/israeli-army-christian-arabs/

    Some notes:
    100 Palestinian Christians joined last year. It looks, if I read the article correctly, that there are 160,000 Orthodox and Catholic Palestinians in total. So, yes, there is an increase, but were talking about minuscule numbers of the population. Is this a trend or an aberration? It certainly doesn’t appear to be reflective of the Palestinian Christian community as a whole.

    It also sounds as though the increase isn’t driven by some recognition that Israel is morally right in their actions, but that it’s driven by a desire to advance in that society. Hardly a Christ-centered motivation, if that is what is truly driving it. I don’t believe joining an inherently violent entity because you want to move up the social ladders is something that can be reconciled with the teachings of Christ.

  • Michiel de Jong

    Historically the level of enlistment of Christian Arabs in the IDF has been in the tens till about 3 years ago when it steadily started to rise. It’s clearly over a 100 now and expectations for next year are close to 200. That is a very significant number considering the size of the Christian Arab population, considering that it is voluntary and considering that the Arab context is not very supportive…
    It has been in the media a couple of month ago… I could find this one for you:
    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/199056

  • JD

    Yes, it appears being treated as second class citizens is motivating some to join the IDF to move up the social ladder. They are doing so for practical reasons, not Christ-like or principled reasons. At least that’s what it comes across as in every article I found on it.

  • Michiel de Jong

    It might be for reasons of career, or more likely; the situation of Christians in the Middle East in general after the ‘Arab Spring’ and the emergence of ISIS etc.
    But what it tells me is that the support of the Christians for the nation they are living in and the state who protects them, is growing. … and not “miniscule”, as you mention after the false comparing between 100 and 160.000. A relevant and honest comparison is between the actual annual number and the potential annual number. That ratio is bigger then 1/10. Very significant considering the circumstances,… even without considering the circumstances.
    And to come back to my point: … those facts totally contradicts the narrative of this article.

  • JD

    Every article I read on it mentions improving their personal situation in that society. Yes, some may be doing it out of fear re: ISIS (which is also not a Christ-like motivator), but the majority are being driven by improving social status. It makes sense, according to the world’s logic, as they live under an oppressive government and naturally they want to improve their lot in life.

    Also, the fact that a minuscule number of Arab Christians have joined the IDF doesn’t counter the points made by Ben in his article. Not even close to doing so. The “narrative” is one of loving not only Jews, but Palestinians as well. It’s about not picking sides between those who are answering evil with evil. The fact that a minuscule number of Arab Christians join an inherently violent entity doesn’t counter the points made.

  • goonersamuel

    My main critiques are of point 3 and 1 of his argument. Point three distorts the historical process of the state of Israel and the conflict surrounding it. Point 1 is a dangerous distortion as it ignores the persecution Palestinian Christians face at the hands of Islamic radicals, while also reorienting a land conflict into a religious one. Sure, religion plays a role, but it is not the defining characteristic of this conflict and the way in which the author utilized religion only serves to exacerbate the problems. I won’t let go of my critique that he is judging a whole society (a term that you have conflated with the term government for some reason) on the actions of a radical few. Should the war crimes under the Bush administration be reflective of who Americans are as people? Should the drone strikes under the Obama administration be used to indicate how horrible Americans are as a whole? Should the actions of HaMAS be reflective of Palestinian society? Of course not!
    To answer your questions, yes Israel has legitimate security reasons to continue occupation. Many are tied to the rise of violence upon the signing of the Oslo accord. Occupation by its very nature is bad, because it shows a breakdown in peaceful and diplomatic relations. However, to characterize occupation by the very worst behavior by soldiers is to misrepresent the overall whole. When one looks at the entire history of the conflict these things become more ambiguous.
    Also, the author does not discuss the atrocities of Palestinian groups. He mentions Palestinian violence, but exclusively refers to it as violence against soldiers and frames it in the context of revolutionary spirit. Upon the signing of the Oslo accords the number of terrorist attacks in Israel rose from what was approximately 18 in 1992 to close to 65 in 1996 many of these suicidal bombings of buses in places like Tel-Aviv. Explain to me how this is violence against an occupier? It is actually reactionary violence against a peace process. Let’s call it what is is, which is terrorism.

  • Michiel de Jong

    The narrative of the article is that (the state of) Israel is an Apartheid state, violently oppressing Arabs and persecuting Christians.
    The fact that a growing and significant number of Arab Christians is joining the IDF,.. the “inherently violent entity” and number-one symbol of the alleged evil, .. definitely contradicts this narrative.
    If more the 1 out of 10 voluntarily choose to risk their life and spend 2 years of their life to defend the state, the support is significant and clearly indicates a different reality then the reality this article tries to picture.

  • JD

    They are an apartheid state. They are violently oppressing Arabs and Christians. The fact that a minuscule number of Christians are willing to serve an inherently violent entity doesn’t change that. There are millions still being oppressed. There are millions that are still denied the same rights and liberties as Jews in Israel. There are millions that are still having to live in camps that are often devoid of basic necessities such as clean water and electricity. 100 Christians choosing the route of violence to escape that is not evidence that it doesn’t exist.

    Also, who said Israel is the “number one symbol of the alleged evil”? Why must you misrepresent and distort the statements of others? Both sides are engaging in evil acts. Both sides are resorting to violence. Both are resorting to murder. That’s the point. As Christians, we shouldn’t be cheering one side or the other on. We should not be picking sides. We should be loving both Jew and Arab. We should be a beacon of God’s love and healing to those victims of this evil cycle of violence. But distorting what is said, condescension, and (as we’ve seen with many here) accusations of antisemitism does nothing to further the conversation. If you cannot engage honestly, then why engage at all?

    You seem to be reading a narrative that’s not there, but is driven by your own biases. The narrative you keep talking about is not the narrative of the article. It is a creation of your own doing. It’s clear, though, that we’re just talking past each other. So, have a great day brother.

  • Ian Nairn

    If you had bothered to look at the link you will see that they reference towards main newspapers and one was basically just a repost of an article from The Australian, but your biases opinion won’t allow you to look at the facts.
    Here is a youtube video documenting the Jewish history of the Land and the Arab Muslim aggression against both the Jews and Christian, which goes against the narrative of the OP.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXjK8kgYKbc

  • Ian Nairn

    There is one place is the Middle East where Christianity is growing and that is Israel. But God never left his promise with Israel and Paul does say in Romans that all Israel shall be saved.(Romans 11:26). Remember that God is not slack concerning his promises. We Gentiles are grafted into the promised via Jesus Christ, who was a Jew.

    One thing I have noticed is how he spend more time condemning Israel than he does compared to what is happening in Syria and Iraq and yet when he has focused on what has happened, he has used the opportunity to attack Christians. The more I read this blog the more it sound anti-Christian than being pro-Christian. It sounds exactly how many atheists think on the issue. The fact that he ignores the history of conflict in the Middle East, where Jews and Christians have been attacked constantly for over 1400 years since the foundation of Islam.

  • Michiel de Jong

    You are right that millions of Arabs are living in camps, devoid of basic necessities, oppressed, denied the same rights as Israeli’s,…. however not in Israel. This might seem to be an insignificant detail,.. but it’s not.
    For your information: There are no “millions” of Christians, or Arabs in Israel, and therefor no millions of them living in an Apartheid state, ..let alone living in camps… What I tried to tell you is that a significant portion of Christian Arabs, who actually live in Israel,… not in camps by the way and enjoying the same rights as their Jewish nationals and doing economically relatively well, support the state of Israel, as is shown by the fact that more then 1 out of 10 risk their life’s by joining the IDF.
    Their perspective and assessment clearly differs from yours.
    You are also right in stating that we as Christians should love both of them; Jews and Arabs. But loving them both must not be confused with proclaiming some kind of moral equivalence in their respective behaviour when there is not. You are not helping the situation by doing that. The Jews will ignore you because they know you are not telling the truth, the Arab Muslims will feel encouraged to continue their fight, because they prefer to think you are telling the truth. The outcome of your strategy is as bad as you can get.
    But the peace of God is in truth and love… (2Joh3).. both.

  • Yup. And then there’s, you know, Google where Palestinian Christians first hand tell their plight. Or documentaries, or my interview with a conservative Evangelical missionary living/working in Palestine under the occupation… But, facts are inconvenient, so I doubt they’ll actually consider any of them.

  • Where’d I get my facts? I don’t know, maybe my years at Gordon-Conwell or Fuller, I can’t quite remember since I’ve been in seminary since 2008. It gets blurred, ya know?

    And yes, dispensational theology held by a large portion of Evangelicals believes the anti-Christ will kill 2/3 of the Jews once they rebel against him about half way through the “tribulation.”

  • Michiel de Jong

    I don’t want to suggest that Wikipedia is always a reliable source of information, but on these theological issues they are obviously better informed than the Seminaries you attended.
    Wiki states: “Dispensationalists also believe that toward the end of the Tribulation, Israel as a nation will turn and embrace Jesus as their messiah right before his second coming during the Great Tribulation.”
    It’s unfortunate that you keep stumbling on lousy sources of information. The screenshot accompanying your article is from RT (Russia Television) and it looks as if your article is mainly based on ‘facts’ presented by them as well.
    I still can’t believe you were not aware about your facts being wrong.

  • Bones

    Wow a video.

    How convincing……

    Lol at the Australian as a source of independent journalism.

    Meanwhile in the real world….

    I Traveled to Palestine-Israel and Discovered There Is No ‘Palestinian-Israeli Conflict’

    “Before I go further, I must put to rest a misnomer. Contrary to what’s been reported in the news for years, there is no Israeli-Palestinian conflict. None, zero, zilch, diddly-squat. I can say with confidence that Palestinians have no agency. The Israeli government controls everything in the country. This total control which is most magnified in the West Bank, concerns everything from where Palestinians are permitted to travel, to how much water they consume per month. Currently, there is no ‘conflict,’ only the omnipresent power of the Israeli government and those who resist it. This is important to understand.”

    “The blatant, systemic subjugation and profiling of Arabs was most pronounced when our tour guide, a middle class Palestinian woman, was forced by IDF soldiers to exit our tour van and pass through a checkpoint on foot. As all Palestinians must do, she was told to place her thumb on a scanner to pass through a turn-style at a checkpoint. The members of our delegation were no exception to IDF scrutiny. The light skinned blacks in our delegation were interrogated and asked bluntly if they were Arab, and if not, what the last names of their fathers’ were.

    Palestinians and progressive Israelis told our delegation story after story of the abuses and degradation they’ve suffered at the hands of Israeli settlers or soldiers, and we witnessed some of this treatment first hand. Along with the rampant home and land confiscation in the West Bank (in which settlers receive state subsidies), agricultural violence is on the rise, as settlers uproot and destroy the olive trees Palestinians rely on for income and nourishment. More sinisterly, public beatings, arrests and shootings are common, particularly in the West Bank. Without charges, a Palestinian can be imprisoned and held for months or years under administrative detention. The same law does not apply to Jewish Israelis. In fact, Israeli citizens can commit a range of crimes against Palestinians with near impunity. Furthermore, Israelis benefit from being under police and civil courts jurisdiction, while Palestinians are under military jurisdiction. Human Rights Watch has documented the “Separate and Unequal” legal situation endured by Palestinians.”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ferrari-sheppard/i-traveled-to-palestine_b_4761896.html?ir=Australia

    Like I said. I know people there and your sources are full of bs.

  • Bones

    As much as I hate this topic here goes…

    Dispensationalism has has many heads and given it’s a form of lunacy, it’s based on the views of the holder.

    Darby and Hal Lindsey disagree with you….

    eg

    “Darby was as dismissive of the Jews as he was of Arabs. He not only taught that God would ‘purify’ the Arabs from between the Nile and the Euphrates and give it all to the Jews, but also believed the majority of Jews would eventually identify with the Antichrist.

    The government of the fourth monarchy will be still in existence, but under the influence and direction of the Antichrist; and the Jews will unite themselves to him, in a state of rebellion, to make war with the Lamb… Satan will then be displayed, who will unite the Jews with this apostate prince against heaven… a remnant of the Jews is delivered and Antichrist destroyed.[[42]]”

    “Lindsey’s last but one book, The Final Battle, includes the statement on the cover:

    “Never before, in one book, has there been such a complete and detailed look at the events leading up to ‘The Battle of Armageddon.'”[[76]]

    Lindsey claims that the world is degenerating and that the forces of evil manifest in godless Communism and militant Islam are the real enemies of Israel. He describes in detail the events leading to the great battle at Megiddo between the massive Russian, Chinese and African armies that will attempt but fail to destroy Israel. He offers illustrated plans showing future military movements of armies and naval convoys leading up to the battle of Armageddon.[[77]] These will merely hasten the return of Jesus Christ as King of the Jews who will rule over the nations from the rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem.[[78]]

    Obstacle or no obstacle, it is certain that the Temple will be rebuilt. Prophecy demands it… With the Jewish nation reborn in the land of Palestine, ancient Jerusalem once again under total Jewish control for the first time in 2600 years, and talk of rebuilding the great Temple, the most important sign of Jesus Christ’s soon coming is before us… It is like the key piece of a jigsaw puzzle being found… For all those who trust in Jesus Christ, it is a time of electrifying excitement.[[79]]

    Acknowledging that the Islamic world will not tolerate such a scenario, Lindsey graphically predicts the effect of a world-wide nuclear holocaust centred on Jerusalem, with the 200 mile valley from the Sea of Galilee to Eilat flowing with irradiated blood several feet deep.[[80]]

    …only a tiny fraction of the world’s population will be left. Only a remnant will have survived. Many of the Jews would have been killed.[[81]]

    In The Final Battle, Lindsey claims, “The Jewish state will be brought to the brink of destruction.”[[82]]

    The land of Israel and the surrounding area will certainly be targeted for nuclear attack. Iran and all the Muslim nations around Israel have already been targeted with Israeli nukes… Zechariah gives an unusual, detailed account of how hundreds of thousands of soldiers in the Israel battle zone will die. Their flesh will be consumed from their bones, their eyes from their sockets, and their tongues from their mouths while they stand on their feet (Zechariah 14:12)… But God’s power is certainly stronger than any nuclear bomb… We do know God will supernaturally strengthen and protect the believing Israelites so that they will survive the worst holocaust the world will ever see. Amen.[[83]]”

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4531.htm

    It seems you don’t know the ‘facts’ of your own lunacy.

    But you kind make it up as you go along.

  • Ok, Gooner, I think I understand you better, and I appreciate the clarifications. Here are my thoughts:

    On Point 3: It’s definitely an analogy and not meant to be actual equivalence, so I agree with you that it’s not an exact match as well as an oversimplification. But do you believe the principle is not applicable? Other countries gave Israel land that already had people living there, and that’s the analogy Ben used. Do you think there are nuances that nullify the analogy?

    On Point 1: Agreed that this is mostly a land/political conflict and not a religious one. Also agreed that Christians suffer at the hands of Palestinian Muslims. However, Ben is addressing an imbalance in contemporary American evangelicalism – the viewpoint being that Israel can do no wrong and the Palestinians are evil terrorists on the wrong side of God’s plan. Mere months ago, I was at a worship service at a very large church where the pastor prayed that holy Israel would be protected from the incursions of evil Palestine and that God would deliver them. Those were the terms he used. This view is alive and well in American evangelicalism, so with that context, I appreciate someone saying, “Hey, Israel is killing Christians.” Most people are unaware of that and see Christian persecution in the Near East as a purely Muslim thing. It doesn’t even occur to them that praying for and supporting our Christian brothers and sisters in the Near East could mean opposing Israel’s actions in any sense.

    On Administrations Reflecting People: I sort of agree and sort of don’t. We put Bush and Obama in office and they represent us. If they begin ordering military action, the U.S. is involved. No other world power will treat that as if it’s the action of an isolated individual. Furthermore, many Americans supported these actions even while many did not. So, yes, I’d have to say in a sense their actions are reflective of the American people.

    I’m sure there are Israelis who oppose various things their country is doing at least in part, and I’m sure there are just as many if not more who support them. I learned my Hebrew from a rabbi. I was the only Gentile in there. During my semester, an incident of violence in Israel was on the news, and when you heard them discuss it, there was not even a sliver of acknowledgement that there was something wrong on both sides. Someone even called the Palestinians “dogs.” This was in America in a Reformed Jewish class – one of the more progressive branches of Judaism. I don’t say that as a blanket statement about “what Jewish people think,” because I’m unqualified to do that. But I am just pointing out how easy it is to get wholly subsumed by your side’s narrative. My country, right or wrong.

    On the Oslo Accords: I think we can agree that however well-intentioned the Oslo Accords were, they were unsuccessful, and Israel’s participation in them resembled a petulant child being forced to hug someone they were fighting with. Israel continued to expand settlements, and subsequent studies have shown that the mediators more or less worked to get all of Israel’s demands met. http://www.palestine-studies.org/jps/fulltext/42078

    So, I would say that noting that violence increased during the timespan of the Oslo accords was “terrorism against the peace process” is also a relatively large oversimplification.

  • Michiel de Jong

    Concerning “my own lunacy”… as I said,.. I am not an Evangelical, let alone a conservative one, nor am I a dispensationalist in any shape or form.
    You obviously assume ‘facts’,… a wide spread disease here.
    Addressing the point you try to make. You may lift a few stones to find a lunatic stating something vaguely similar to what the author of the article shoves into the shoes of a whole Christian denomination. That doesn’t change the fact that mainstream Evangelicals foresee the mass conversion of Jews in the end time, .. not a mass slaughtering of Jews as the Author suggested. Nor does it change the fact that concerning Israel the prime concern of the Evangelicals is the Jewish people not the Jewish state and that therefor the author is projecting his own confusion on others.

  • goonersamuel

    I understand what you are saying. I believe his analogy misrepresents the historical events and I believe it is a dangerous oversimplification. What we have to understand is that there still existed the Old Yishuv that inhabited Israel since ancient times. Immigration to Israel began as far back as 1881. Much of the land that they acquired to establish a future Jewish state was done through legitimate land purchases from citizens of the Ottoman Empire. Even when the land purchases were prohibited they were still carried out through local cooperation among Ottoman bureaucrats, Arab landowners, and Jewish immigrants. We also have to understand the influx of Jewish settlers in the context of massive Jewish persecution in Europe. The Holocaust was not a random act of Judeophobia, but can be seen as an historic movement of massive persecution against Jews within the pogroms. What happened in the 1940’s was a matter of two groups disputing who had the right to govern said territory. Also, the Israeli historian Mordechai Bar-On discusses his involvement in the 1948 War as having grown up in Palestine he knew that the surrounding Arab states wanted to remove his family from the land and he wasn’t willing to let go of his homeland.
    My impression of Israeli attitudes might be distorted because most of my interactions with Israeli’s on this issue are my history professors who have a more dispassionate take (not to say they don’t have bias, but use less inflammatory language).
    Certainly there was a reluctance to the Oslo accords, but the majority of Israeli’s supported the peace process (I believe the polls registered around 68%). The reason for the failure was the minority opinion within each faction that worked actively against the process. Israel did engage in withdrawals and transfer over power to the PA. Also most scholars would say the rise of terrorist violence was in reaction to the Oslo accords (Israel/Palestine by Alan Dowty and Arabs and Israelis by Aly, Feldman, and Shikaki).

  • Jack Beans

    My point is some Europeans “Jews” are not real Jews. These non-Jews have moved from Europe to the Middle East and stole lands from the Palestinians who happen to be Semites. They are using their Jewish affiliation disguising themselves as biblical Jews to grab land. Who is being an anti-Semite here? I’m sick and tired of these fake European “Jews” faking their way into world history and labeling people like me as being anti-Semite when they in fact are not Semites at all.

  • Bones

    For someone who doesn’t have a bun in this fight, you’ve picked a weird one to embarrass yourself.

    You only need to look at the clowns in response to this article who are clambering over themselves to defend the state of Israel.

    Its clear from Dispensationalist sources that the article is correct.

  • Michiel de Jong

    The ones I have read and who clearly responded negatively on this article, did so for reasons other than defending the state of Israel and none of them identified himself as a dispensationalist. They reacted on the astonishing level of ‘inaccuracies’ in the article… and the hypocrisy.
    The reason you misinterpreted their motivation is related to the fact that you buy into the narrative of this article. That’s a pity, the author is confused, at best.

  • Bernhard Henry Fynn

    If you read history, you would know that there has NEVER been an arab palestine, this is a modern invention of the 1960s. GO READ.

  • Bernhard Henry Fynn

    First, the jews are gods’ chosen people and the fact that they are still there when millions of people want them gone , is testament to this.
    Israel, Juda, was renamed palestine by the Roman occupiers in 135 A.D. and threw the troublesome jews out. This area has been called palestine since, but it is not and never has been an arab nation. It was a territory where arabs, jews and christians lived. ALL were palestinians. This nation called palestine is a 1960s invention. Israel is a sovereign nation and they make their own laws FOR THEM and anyone else who lives there are required to abide by those laws just as anyone living in another country not their own, does.So Israel IS NOT an apartheid state. When palestine was liberated from the Ottoman empire, the arabs were given the same opportunity as the jews for a land of their own and CHOSE to not accept, instead vowed to wipe Israel Off the map.
    For some one with a higher learning, you do have trouble researching.

  • Bernhard Henry Fynn

    This is not the truth, there has never been an arab palestine. Point this out on an ancient map. where was this palestine.

  • nabil89

    Both my grandparents were living in Palestine before they were evacuated with the entrance of Zionist militias.
    The proof is my living body. I am breathing right now Bernhard. I am sorry if that disturbs you but I do not feel like dying, not yet at least ;) I am a Palestinian.
    Peace brother

  • Bones

    “did so for reasons other than defending the state of Israel and none of them identified himself as a dispensationalist. ”

    BS.

    Now as one who knows Palestinian ministers living in Palestine can you direct me to the inaccuracies in the article?

    Aside from your debunked criticisms about Dispensationalists.

    Btw why do you support Israeli oppression of Arab Christians?

    Is it because the Israelis are Jewish?

  • Bones

    Hamas is not in power on the West Bank…..

  • Bones

    Just hundreds of thousands of Arabs living there.

    What do you think was there before Israel in 1948?

    Hint: It starts with P

  • Bones

    “This nation called palestine is a 1960s invention.”

    Palestine appears on nearly every map of the Middle East from 43 CE -Palestina.

    But do go on.

  • Bones

    It’s weird how people who have never been to the area nor known people from the area claim to know so much about it and are able to make such shameful ignorant statements.

  • The destroyer

    Er Hamas? I am not anti Palestine btw

  • The destroyer

    Israel = those who wrestle with God.

  • Michiel de Jong

    I am not supporting any oppression, and the premises of your question is false. It assumes the existence of the mentioned oppression, but there is no oppression of Christian Arabs by the state of Israel. And your ‘subtle’ shift from the “state of Israel” to “Israeli” is close to deceit. The same deceit as in the article.
    It’s one of the ‘inaccuracies’…: “I am against the state of Israel because Christians are being persecuted”. …. well maybe you can define being spit on by Orthodox Jews as persecution, but that’s not persecution by the state of Israel or it’s laws. In fact, the opposite is the case. The state of Israel (tries to) protects citizen against violence of other citizens. It also shows the hypocrisy. “oh no I have nothing against Jews, I am only against this ugly and violent entity; the state”.
    BS! (to quote you).
    And no,… I am not defending the state, let alone for the Israelis being Jewish. The only reasons why I like the Orthodox Jews more then Arab Muslims, is because the first only spit on people they disagree with while the others chop off heads. If you really care about Christians in the Middle East you should support a state which face this kind of violence with an adequate response.

  • Ian Nairn

    The fact that you rely on blood libels just shows how desperate you are in trying to attack Israel. It is relly disappointing that you would stoop so low on that, but that is the standard attack Anti-Semites have to use to get at Israel. The fact of the matter is that there is one place in the Middle East where the Christian population is growing and that Israel. The Christians of Bethlehem were not happy they that were given over to the Arabs and not part of Israel.

  • Ian Nairn

    Are you saying all those newspaper articles from history are factually incorrect? If so then how are they incorrect when they were written as eyewitness to what happened.

  • I’d encourage you to actually dialogue with Palestinian Christians and Christian missionaries living there, which I do on a regular basis. It will cure you of your refusal to listen to the voices of the least of these that Christ commanded us to care for. I’ll even do part of the homework for you– here is an interview with an evangelical missionary living in Palestine:

    http://thatgodshow.podbean.com/e/living-under-israeli-occupation-interview-with-a-christian-missionary-in-palestine/

    Furthermore, if the Christian population in Israel is growing, that’s not a refutation of persecution– the fastest growing Christian population in the world is in China, where they are horribly persecuted. Thus why the early fathers said that “the blood of persecution is the seed of the Church.” If anything, history points to persecution as being a reason for growth.

    If the points of the OP are wrong, disprove them. Prove that the Christian Palestinians who are asking the world to help alleviate their suffering, are all lying. Prove there isn’t an Israeli occupation, that they haven’t tried to go after funding for Christian schools… prove that all of the Israeli soldiers who have left the military and now come out against their own nation’s war crimes, are wrong. Prove that all of the videos you can easily access on youtube of Israeli soldiers shooting unarmed Palestinian children, are fakes. Prove that the documentary of torturing children, which I actually linked to, is all bogus and doctored.

    If I’m wrong, just prove it. So far, you haven’t offered any actual evidence that the claims are factually incorrect.

    You’re welcome to actually try to disprove the claims made in the OP, but you have a high burden of proof to do so. Simply calling me a racist doesn’t win you the argument.

  • seashell

    I don’t know what newspaper articles you are referring to, but you get your info from unusual and not credible sources. Try this NY Times article that references the case your camera blog refers to: Palestinian’s Trial Shines Light on Military Justice. Check out the Israel/Palestine section in Human Rights Watch.

    In the July 2014 Gaza conflict, 1462 Palestinian civilian were killed, including 551 children. 6 Israeli civilians were killed, according to the UN General Assembly Resolution dated July 2015 that called for: Ensuring accountability and justice for all violations of international law in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem.

    As a Christian, why are you concerned only for Christians and not ALL people?

  • seashell

    …wonder why the world sees American Christianity as angry and looking nothing like Christ.

    It’s hard to look like Christ and Wall Street at the same time.

    Speaking of gun culture and Christians, Journeyman Pictures has a 33 minute doc up on YouTube called Gospel And Guns: How Religion And Gun Law Intertwine In America. It made me shudder deeply a few times and is well worth watching.

  • Ian Nairn

    The Middle East will son be devoid of Christians except for two places, that is Israel, Egypt and Lebanon. Egypt and Lebanon has sizeable Christian populations and in Israel it is a small Minority. Elsewhere it is basically being removed by those who Follow Islam and yet you have said very little of that.
    http://morningstarnews.org/2015/06/christians-suspect-islamic-state-influencing-muslims-in-palestinian-territories-israel/

    There is a saying by Muslims that they will “go after first the Saturday people and then the Sunday People.”

    http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/27518/Default.aspx
    In this article we have the views of a Palestine Christian about the recent wave of terror attacks and how they grieved his heart.

  • Ok– so you’re both completely unaware of international culture (such as the fact that Christians live just fine in Jordan– I was there meeting with Christian and Muslim leaders a few months ago), and also unable to factually disprove any of the points in the OP. Duly noted.

  • Thanks for saying it. It’s about time people start looking directly at the situation you describe.

    How much of the madness in the middle east can be traced to the injustice manifesting as Zionism? And our support of it.

    Any leftover madness of course, goes in the basket with oil dependency and the weapons market.

    I’d like to say that it’s been an education, but can’t.

  • The standards of integrity represented by this collectivity we are calling Israel, are among the most bent on the planet. Ethnocentricity on steroids. Delusionally self righteous and self serving to the point of moral blindness.

    And, this sycophantic pandering that you describe as the duty of real Christians?

    Seriously creepy man!

  • The Happy Atheist

    Oh! From the tone of this clearly authoritative response, I assume you know Arabic. As it happens, so do I! You’ve no doubt heard of the “Philistines” of the Old Testament? Guess what the Arabic word for “Palestinian” is? Go on, guess!

  • Bernhard Henry Fynn

    They may have been LIVING there, but a palestinian is ANYONE who lived there. Jews were palestinians, christians were palestinians
    The
    land called “Palestine”

    In
    the 2nd century c.e., the last attempt of the Jews
    to achieve independence from the Roman Empire ended with the well-known
    event of Masada, that is historically documented and universally recognized
    as the fact that determined the Jewish Diaspora in a definitive way. The
    Land where these things happened was until then the province known as Judæa
    ,
    and there is no mention of any place called “Palestine” before
    that time. The Roman emperor Hadrian was utterly upset with the Jewish Nation
    and wanted to erase the name of Israel and Judah from the face of the Earth,
    so that there would be no memory of the country that belonged to that rebel
    people. He decided to replace the denomination of that Roman province and
    resorted to ancient history in order to find a name that might appear appropriate,
    and found that an extinct people that was unknown in Roman times, called
    “Philistines”, was once dwelling in that area and were enemies
    of the Israelites. Therefore, according to Latin spelling, he invented the
    new name: “Palæstina”,
    a name that would be also hateful for the Jews as it reminded them their
    old foes. He did so with the explicit purpose of effacing any trace of Jewish
    history. Ancient Romans, as well as modern Palestinians, have fulfilled
    the Hebrew Scriptures Prophecy that declares: “They
    lay crafty plans against Your People… they say: ‘come, let us wipe them
    out as a nation; let the name of Israel be remembered no more’.” – Tehilim
    83:3-4 (Psalm 83:3-4). They
    failed, as Israel is still alive. Any honest person would recognize that
    there is no mention of the name Palestina in history before the Romans
    renamed the province of Judea, that such name does not occur in any ancient
    document, is not written in the Bible, neither in the Hebrew Scriptures
    nor in the Christian Testament, not even in Assyrian, Persian, Macedonian,
    Ptolemaic, Seleucian or other Greek sources, and that not any “Palestinian”
    people has ever been mentioned, not even by the Romans that invented the
    term. If “Palestinians” allegedly are the historic inhabitants of the Holy
    Land, why did they not fight for independence from Roman occupation as Jews
    did? How is it possible that not a single Palestinian leader heading for
    a revolt against the Roman invaders is mentioned in any historic record?
    Why there is not any Palestinian rebel group mentioned, as for example the
    Jewish Zealots? Why every historic document mentions the Jews as the native
    inhabitants, and the Greeks, Romans and others as foreigners dwelling in
    Judea, but not any Palestinian people, neither as native nor as foreigner?
    What is more, there is no reference to any Palestinian people in the qur’an
    (koran), although muslims claim that their prophet was once in Jerusalem
    (an event that is not mentioned in the koran either). It appears evident
    that he did not meet any Palestinian in his whole life, nor his successors
    did either. Caliph Salahuddin al-Ayyub (Saladin), knew the Jews and kindly
    invited them to settle in Jerusalem, that he recognized as their Homeland,
    but he did not know any Palestinian… To claim that Palestinians are the
    original people of Eretz Yisrael is not only against secular history but
    also against Islamic history!

    The name “Falastin” that Arabs today use for “Palestine” is not an Arabic
    name, but adopted and adapted from the Latin Palæstina
    .
    How can an Arab people have a western name instead of one in their own language?
    Because the use of the term “Palestinian” for an Arab group is only a modern
    political creation without any historic or ethnic grounds, and did not indicate
    any people before 1967. An Arab writer and journalist declared:

    “There has never
    been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians
    are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention),
    Syrians, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent
    of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of one percent of
    the landmass. But that’s too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And
    that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today… No matter
    how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough”.

    – Joseph Farah,
    “Myths of the Middle East” –

    Let us hear what
    other Arabs have said:

    “There is no such
    country as Palestine. ‘Palestine’ is a term the Zionists invented. There
    is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria.
    ‘Palestine’ is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it”.

    – Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi,
    Syrian Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937 –

    “There is not
    a solitary village throughout its whole extent (valley of Jezreel, Galilea);
    not for thirty miles in either direction… One may ride ten miles hereabouts
    and not see ten human beings. For the sort of solitude to make one dreary,
    come to Galilee… Nazareth is forlorn… Jericho lies a mouldering ruin…
    Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and humiliation… untenanted
    by any living creature… A desolate country whose soil is rich enough,
    but is given over wholly to weeds… a silent, mournful expanse… a desolation…
    We never saw a human being on the whole route… Hardly a tree or shrub
    anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a
    worthless soil had almost deserted the country… Palestine sits in sackcloth
    and ashes… desolate and unlovely…”.

    – Mark Twain,
    “The Innocents Abroad”, 1867 –

  • The Happy Atheist

    Dude, I know @disqus_iz5fcdqSyS:disqus is right because I’ve was in Israel right after the outbreak of the Second Intifada in 2000. Yes, there was widespread attacks by Palestinians armed with – get this – rocks, bottles, and slingshots. How did the IDF respond? With tanks, APCs, and M16s. I have personally witnessed and reported on IDF soldiers armed with “crowd control” rifles loaded with rubber-coated steel pellets shooting unarmed Palestinian protesters *in the head.* Intentionally. The worst part is that the upper echelon of the IDF and IAF *KNOW* they’re wrong and take every measure imaginable to prevent outsiders from reporting on it. On the other hand, they know that the US is their lapdog in the UN, so the worst they’ll ever face is a toothless sanction.

  • Bernhard Henry Fynn

    You people have been brainwashed by anti Israel bigots. READ history you doormat, it is all there. Rome renamed Israel/ Judah, palestine in 135 A.D and the name stuck due to the lenght of time it was under Roman control. This is NOT a arab nation, but a Roman and Ottoman territory and ALL who lived there were palestinians.

  • Bernhard Henry Fynn

    How is a jew not a jew. If the mother was, the children are. The jews moved to Palestine in the 1880s and irrigated the area and made it productive, this is when the arabs decided to come in.

  • The Happy Atheist

    Post your source material so we can evaluate it. Full disclosure, though: I’m a degreed and experienced historian, as are several other people who frequent this blog…

  • Bernhard Henry Fynn

    another dickbrain . The U.N. in 1948 revived Israel as a individual nation, the jews did NOT evict anyone. If you read history and were capable of understanding instead of being a sheep, you would know that this palestine was NOT an arab nation but a territory controlled by the Romans and the Ottomans until the end of the first world war.

  • The Happy Atheist

    No, Bernhard. No. The UN *created* Israel out of whole cloth in 1948. There was no such thing until then. No borders. No economy. No “Israelis.” That, my friend, is as close to a historical “fact” as you will ever see.

  • Bernhard Henry Fynn

    Hint, the ROMANS renamed Israel, palestine in 135 A.D.

    The
    land called “Palestine”

    In
    the 2nd century c.e., the last attempt of the Jews
    to achieve independence from the Roman Empire ended with the well-known
    event of Masada, that is historically documented and universally recognized
    as the fact that determined the Jewish Diaspora in a definitive way. The
    Land where these things happened was until then the province known as Judæa
    ,
    and there is no mention of any place called “Palestine” before
    that time. The Roman emperor Hadrian was utterly upset with the Jewish Nation
    and wanted to erase the name of Israel and Judah from the face of the Earth,
    so that there would be no memory of the country that belonged to that rebel
    people. He decided to replace the denomination of that Roman province and
    resorted to ancient history in order to find a name that might appear appropriate,
    and found that an extinct people that was unknown in Roman times, called
    “Philistines”, was once dwelling in that area and were enemies
    of the Israelites. Therefore, according to Latin spelling, he invented the
    new name: “Palæstina”,
    a name that would be also hateful for the Jews as it reminded them their
    old foes. He did so with the explicit purpose of effacing any trace of Jewish
    history. Ancient Romans, as well as modern Palestinians, have fulfilled
    the Hebrew Scriptures Prophecy that declares: “They
    lay crafty plans against Your People… they say: ‘come, let us wipe them
    out as a nation; let the name of Israel be remembered no more’.” – Tehilim
    83:3-4 (Psalm 83:3-4). They
    failed, as Israel is still alive. Any honest person would recognize that
    there is no mention of the name Palestina in history before the Romans
    renamed the province of Judea, that such name does not occur in any ancient
    document, is not written in the Bible, neither in the Hebrew Scriptures
    nor in the Christian Testament, not even in Assyrian, Persian, Macedonian,
    Ptolemaic, Seleucian or other Greek sources, and that not any “Palestinian”
    people has ever been mentioned, not even by the Romans that invented the
    term. If “Palestinians” allegedly are the historic inhabitants of the Holy
    Land, why did they not fight for independence from Roman occupation as Jews
    did? How is it possible that not a single Palestinian leader heading for
    a revolt against the Roman invaders is mentioned in any historic record?
    Why there is not any Palestinian rebel group mentioned, as for example the
    Jewish Zealots? Why every historic document mentions the Jews as the native
    inhabitants, and the Greeks, Romans and others as foreigners dwelling in
    Judea, but not any Palestinian people, neither as native nor as foreigner?
    What is more, there is no reference to any Palestinian people in the qur’an
    (koran), although muslims claim that their prophet was once in Jerusalem
    (an event that is not mentioned in the koran either). It appears evident
    that he did not meet any Palestinian in his whole life, nor his successors
    did either. Caliph Salahuddin al-Ayyub (Saladin), knew the Jews and kindly
    invited them to settle in Jerusalem, that he recognized as their Homeland,
    but he did not know any Palestinian… To claim that Palestinians are the
    original people of Eretz Yisrael is not only against secular history but
    also against Islamic history!

    The name “Falastin” that Arabs today use for “Palestine” is not an Arabic
    name, but adopted and adapted from the Latin Palæstina
    .
    How can an Arab people have a western name instead of one in their own language?
    Because the use of the term “Palestinian” for an Arab group is only a modern
    political creation without any historic or ethnic grounds, and did not indicate
    any people before 1967. An Arab writer and journalist declared:

    “There has never
    been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians
    are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention),
    Syrians, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent
    of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of one percent of
    the landmass. But that’s too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And
    that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today… No matter
    how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough”.

    – Joseph Farah,
    “Myths of the Middle East” –

    Let us hear what
    other Arabs have said:

    “There is no such
    country as Palestine. ‘Palestine’ is a term the Zionists invented. There
    is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria.
    ‘Palestine’ is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it”.

    – Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi,
    Syrian Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937 –

    “There is not
    a solitary village throughout its whole extent (valley of Jezreel, Galilea);
    not for thirty miles in either direction… One may ride ten miles hereabouts
    and not see ten human beings. For the sort of solitude to make one dreary,
    come to Galilee… Nazareth is forlorn… Jericho lies a mouldering ruin…
    Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and humiliation… untenanted
    by any living creature… A desolate country whose soil is rich enough,
    but is given over wholly to weeds… a silent, mournful expanse… a desolation…
    We never saw a human being on the whole route… Hardly a tree or shrub
    anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a
    worthless soil had almost deserted the country… Palestine sits in sackcloth
    and ashes… desolate and unlovely…”.

    – Mark Twain,
    “The Innocents Abroad”, 1867 –
    So much for your thousands of arabs. Read the 18886 Ottoman cesus.

  • Bernhard Henry Fynn

    “There is not
    a solitary village throughout its whole extent (valley of Jezreel, Galilea);
    not for thirty miles in either direction… One may ride ten miles hereabouts
    and not see ten human beings. For the sort of solitude to make one dreary,
    come to Galilee… Nazareth is forlorn… Jericho lies a mouldering ruin…
    Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and humiliation… untenanted
    by any living creature… A desolate country whose soil is rich enough,
    but is given over wholly to weeds… a silent, mournful expanse… a desolation…
    We never saw a human being on the whole route… Hardly a tree or shrub
    anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a
    worthless soil had almost deserted the country… Palestine sits in sackcloth
    and ashes… desolate and unlovely…”.

    – Mark Twain,
    “The Innocents Abroad”, 1867 –

  • Dennis Wilson

    I support Israel’s right to exist and for its people to be free from terrorists attacks and to defend itself from terrorist attacks.

    Israel will never be defeated because God has protected and will continue to protect Israel. When Jesus Christ returns and sets up his Kingdom, it will be from Jerusalem.

    I laugh with God at those who think they can thwart God’s plan for Israel and its people. I support Israel.

  • I consider it particularly creepy that Arabs teach their children, beginning in preschool, that Jews are actually monkeys, and the only good Jew, is a dead Jew.

    I also find it particularly creepy that the Palestinians and Arabs in general spew propaganda that Israel has no right to exist.

    Meantime, Israel doesn’t respond in kind. In fact, Jews, Christians, Hindus, Muslims, Mormons, and hundreds of other faiths are not only free, but invited to practice their faith in Israel. That can’t be said in all Arab nations.

    Meantime, nowhere do you find Israelis teaching their children to hate Christians, Americans, Muslims, or any other race, or religion, or gender in their schools as you’ll find in any Arab school.

    So, take your creepy, antisemitic bilge, and shove it up your Burqa.

  • Jeff Preuss

    “A major part of being a legitimate Christian is spiritually supporting
    Israel, and trusting that she is working under the limitations and
    guidance of God himself.”
    That is your opinion, but it is not actually anything approaching a major tenet of “legitimate” Christians.

  • Jeff Preuss

    I support the right to exist ALL the people living in this hotly-contested geographical area to be free from terrorist attacks from all sides. I support the right of ALL people there to be free from being caught in the crossfire of Jews, Muslims, and Christians.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Soooooo, a semantic quibble leads you to call Ben’s position demonic.

    Wow. As long as you’re not prone to hyperbole.

  • Matthew46

    The 1922 census of Palestine recorded the population of Palestine as 757,000, of which 78% were Muslims, 11% were Jews, 10% were Christians and 1% were Druze.
    ….
    “The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized …. Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. ALL OF IT. And for Ever.”
    — Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

  • Dennis Wilson

    Great, why tell me?

  • Matthew46

    “It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of THEIR LANDS.”


    Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister,
    addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme
    right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15,1998.

  • Matthew46

    ….history of conflict in the Middle East, where Jews and Christians have been attacked constantly for over 1400 years since the foundation of Islam.”
    …..
    Who attacked who?

    ·
    Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine “the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians” said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]

    ·
    Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (Jewish, Muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]

    In the words of one witness: “there [in front of Solomon’s temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes”, and after that “happily and crying for joy our people marchedto our Saviour’s tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude.”

  • Matthew46

    Read: Method and Madness: The hidden story of Israel’s attacks on Gaza (N. Finklestein).

  • Words have meaning. Mr. Dr. Corey says he does not support Israel. What part of “does not support Israel” do you not understand?

    You know who else doesn’t support Israel? Antisemites.

    They come in all stripes, colors, and ‘education levels,’ across the globe.

    If Mr. Dr. Cory had stopped at ‘criticizing’ Israel, that would be one thing. But it’s altogether a different thing to say you don’t support it.

    Jesus criticized hypocritical religious Jews. He also loved and supported the nation of Israel …to the point of crying for their deliverance.
    I’m not seeing that kind of affection from Mr. Dr. Corey, or any of the other anti-semitic sympathizers posting on this blog, toward Israel.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Your arguments continue to be irrational and exaggerated. Ben is not anti-semitic in any way. He criticized Israel. Needless violence is abhorrent in any situation, regardless of the perpetrator.

    Questioning and criticizing the violent actions of a nation do not equate with hatred of that nation’s people.

  • Matthew46

    OPERATION PROTECTIVE EDGE DRAGGED ON three more weeks after Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu announced the end of the ground offensive. On 26 August 2014, a cease-fire went into effect. By massacre’s end, Israel had killed 2,200 Palestinians, of whom 70–75 percent were civilians. 500 Palestinian children. In addition, 11,000 Palestinians suffered injuries,3,300 children, of whom 1,000 will be permanently disabled); 11,000 homes, 360 factories and workshops, 160 mosques, 100 schools, and 10 hospitals were either destroyed or severely damaged; 100,000 Palestinians were left homeless.

    Israel suffered at 66 combatant and five civilian casualties (a foreign guest worker was also killed). Among the dead was one Israeli child. In addition, 120 Israelis suffered injuries (one person was seriously wounded).

  • Dennis Wilson

    Are you in the camp of “I no longer support Israel?”

  • It is irrational to ignore the words used by the author of this blog post, and reinterpret them to mean something they do not say, or add interpretations to make them mean something less than what they say. Otherwise, it is no exaggeration to say that Mr. Dr. Corey titled this blog post as “5 Reasons Why I’m A Christian Who Stopped Supporting Israel”

    Otherwise, I ask which part of “stopped supporting Israel” is an illogical exaggeration on my part?

    I’m beginning to believe that this is a great place for antisemites to commiserate about how evil is Israel. Good luck with that.

  • The Happy Atheist

    @Matthew46:disqus is exactly right. Here’s an article I wrote on the establishment of Israel (actually, it was my final research project for my BA in history):

    http://archive.armstrong.edu/Initiatives/history_journal/history_journal_worldview_and_realpolitik_harry_s._truman_and_the_esta

    It covers many of the issues @bernhardhenryfynn:disqus brings up.

  • Mary Pallotrix

    To keep Israelis out, though the locks do little to stop the bulldozers and molotovs.

  • Montelatici

    1. You don’t “revive ” a Kingdom that may or may not have existed 3,000 years ago and give it to a bunch of Europeans that happen to be of the Jewish faith. In any case, the UN did not revive anything.

    2. It does not matter one bit if an area was a nation or not. People were living there that happened to be 99% Christian and Muslim before the European Zionists began arriving. The Zionists evicted most of these Christians and Muslims to make room for themselves and create a state for Jews at the expense of the Christians and Muslims.

    I have forgotten more about the history than you will ever learn. I suggest you google the Berman Jewish Policy Archive at NYU and download the Survey of Palestine volumes 1 thru 3. Stop spreading propaganda.

  • Matthew46

    If I provoked you by throwing a rock, and you threw a rock back, and then I demolished your house entirely, would you support me?

  • Dennis Wilson

    I would have you arrested.
    Are you in the camp of “I no longer support Israel?”

  • Matthew46

    Well then, apply it to Israel. Should Israel be condemned as well for doing the same thing, just as it’s being by almost every country except the USA. The government is corrupt and brutal with no intention of stopping until every Palestinian is gone.

  • Matthew46

    DNA shows blood lines that go back to Persia/Iran. The Jews are related more to the Europeans.

  • Bernhard Henry Fynn

    The Kingdom of Israel was NOT revived, but a nation. The jews have every right to this partition, the arabs do NOT. There has never been a nation called palestine and idf you are as knowledgable as you say you are, you would know that. Just because these arabs lived there does not make them any more palestinian than any other group, so they have NO claim as a people to any of the old palestine.
    The first jews came to palestine in the 1880s and due to their irrigating and producing, brought the arabs in.So, if the area was 99% muslim AND christian, christians have as much claim as the arabs.

    “There is not
    a solitary village throughout its whole extent (valley of Jezreel, Galilea);
    not for thirty miles in either direction… One may ride ten miles hereabouts
    and not see ten human beings. For the sort of solitude to make one dreary,
    come to Galilee… Nazareth is forlorn… Jericho lies a mouldering ruin…
    Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and humiliation… untenanted
    by any living creature… A desolate country whose soil is rich enough,
    but is given over wholly to weeds… a silent, mournful expanse… a desolation…
    We never saw a human being on the whole route… Hardly a tree or shrub
    anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a
    worthless soil had almost deserted the country… Palestine sits in sackcloth
    and ashes… desolate and unlovely…”.

    – Mark Twain,
    “The Innocents Abroad”, 1867 –

    “As I lived in
    Palestine, everyone I knew could trace their heritage back to the original
    country their great grandparents came from. Everyone knew their origin
    was not from the Canaanites, but ironically, this is the kind of stuff
    our education in the Middle East included. The fact is that today’s Palestinians
    are immigrants from the surrounding nations! I grew up well knowing the
    history and origins of today’s Palestinians as being from Yemen, Saudi
    Arabia, Morocco, Christians from Greece, muslim Sherkas from Russia, muslims
    from Bosnia, and the Jordanians next door. My grandfather, who was a dignitary
    in Bethlehem, almost lost his life by Abdul Qader Al-Husseni (the leader
    of the Palestinian revolution) after being accused of selling land to
    Jews. He used to tell us that his village Beit Sahur (The Shepherds Fields)
    in Bethlehem County was empty before his father settled in the area with
    six other families. The town has now grown to 30,000 inhabitants”.

    – Walid Shoebat,
    an “ex-Palestinian” Arab –

    “The area was
    underpopulated and remained economically stagnant until the arrival of
    the first Zionist pioneers in the 1880’s, who came to rebuild the Jewish
    land. The country had remained “The Holy Land” in the religious and historic
    consciousness of mankind, which associated it with the Bible and the history
    of the Jewish people. Jewish development of the country also attracted
    large numbers of other immigrants – both Jewish and Arab. The road leading
    from Gaza to the north was only a summer track suitable for transport
    by camels and carts… Houses were all of mud. No windows were anywhere
    to be seen… The plows used were of wood… The yields were very poor…
    The sanitary conditions in the village [Yabna] were horrible… Schools
    did not exist… The rate of infant mortality was very high… The western
    part, toward the sea, was almost a desert… The villages in this area
    were few and thinly populated. Many ruins of villages were scattered over
    the area, as owing to the prevalence of malaria, many villages were deserted
    by their inhabitants”.

    – The report of
    the British Royal Commission, 1913

    The British perfidy

    The restoration of the desolate and deserted Land began in the
    latter half of the XIX century with the arrival of the first Jewish pioneers.
    Their labours created newer and better conditions and opportunities,
    which in turn attracted migrants from many parts of the Middle East,
    mainly Arabs but also Circassians, Kurds and others.
    The Balfour Declaration of 1917, confirmed by the
    League of Nations, committed the British government (that took control
    of the Holy Land after having defeated the Ottoman Turks) to the
    principle that “His Majesty’s government view with favour the
    establishment in Palestine of a Jewish National Home, and will use their
    best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object”.
    It
    was specified both that this area be open to “Jewish settlement”
    and that the rights of all inhabitants already in the country be
    preserved and protected. The “Mandate of Palestine” ‒as it was called
    the British-occupied land‒ originally included all of
    present-day Jordan, as well as the whole of Israel, and the
    so-called “territories” between them (?) ‒actually, the Jordan river and
    the Dead Sea are the only “territory” between Israel and the Hashemite
    Kingdom‒.

    However, the political and economic interests of Great Britain in Arabia
    turned soon into a blatant anti-Jewish policy. The British rule
    progressively limited Jewish immigration. In 1939 the admission of Jews
    to enter the Holy Land was put to an end. In the moment in which Jews
    from Europe had the greatest need of refuge, the British denied them to
    reach the Land that was their only hope of deliverance from the
    atrocious Shoah. Yes, the British government is not less guilty than
    Nazi Germany for the Shoah! At the same time, the British allowed and even
    encouraged massive illegal immigration into the lands west of the Jordan
    river from Arab countries. Then, all the lands of the Mandate of
    Palestine east of the Jordan river were given to the Arabs and the
    puppet-kingdom of “Trans-Jordan” was created, name that was then changed
    into “Jordan” after the Arabs occupied the western side in 1948.
    There was no traditional or historic
    Arab name for this land, so it was called after the river that marked
    its western border (which was later included, until June 1967).
    By this political act, that violated the
    conditions of the Balfour Declaration and the Mandate, the British stole
    more than 75 % out of the Jewish National Home. No Jew has ever
    been permitted to reside in the east of the Jordan river. Less than 25 %
    then remained of Mandate of Palestine, and even in this remnant, the
    British violated the Balfour and Mandate requirements for a “Jewish
    National Home” and for “Jewish settlement”. They progressively
    restricted where Jews could buy land, where they could live, build, farm
    or work. After the Six-Day War in 1967, Israel was finally able to
    settle some small part of those lands from which the Jews had been
    banned by the British. Successive British governments regularly
    condemned Jewish settlement as “illegal”. Actually, it was the
    British who had acted illegally in banning Jews from these parts of the
    Jewish National Home! To conclude in shame, when the it was held the UN
    voting to approve the creation of the State of Israel in November 29,
    1947, the United Kingdom ABSTAINED. Israel was recognized by the USSR,
    the Communist Countries, the USA and Philippines. When the British had
    to leave the Holy Land, they left their weapons in Arab hands ‒ while
    Jews were prohibited to have any kind of weapon and had to keep them in
    secret in order to defend themselves from the imminent attack by the
    Arabs, in which the British would appear as “disengaged” and free from any
    responsibility…

    “The land in Palestine
    is lacking in people to till its fertile soil”.

    – British archaeologist
    Thomas Shaw, mid-1700s –

    “Palestine is
    a ruined and desolate land”.

    – Count Constantine
    François Volney, XVIII century French author and historian –

    “The Arabs themselves
    cannot be considered but temporary residents. They pitched their tents
    in its grazing fields or built their places of refuge in its ruined cities.
    They created nothing in it. Since they were strangers to the land, they
    never became its masters. The desert wind that brought them hither could
    one day carry them away without their leaving behind them any sign of
    their passage through it”.

    – Comments by
    Christians concerning the Arabs in Palestine in the 1800s

    So , you know more than the people who were there .-

  • Dennis Wilson

    You make no sense. You won’t answer my question simply because you never supported Israel.

  • Matthew46

    I think you do understand, Dennis.

  • Dennis Wilson

    I do understand that you don’t support Israel and never have. You had three opportunities.

  • Bones

    “but there is no oppression of Christian Arabs by the state of Israel. ”

    Really?

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

    Then you do not know the facts. You are at best ignorant and most probably a liar.

    ” The only reasons why I like the Orthodox Jews more then Arab Muslims, ”

    My Palestinian Christian friends live on the West Bank and have no issue with Muslims. They do have massive issues with Israel eg being evicted from their houses at gun point.

    You need to stop posting as you know nothing of what is happening to Palestinians.

    In fact you are just spreading propaganda and helping Israel oppress even more Arabs.

    One can only say that you’re racist against Arabs including Christians.

    And plenty of Jews don’t support Israel or it’s expansionist policies.

    Your posts are discredited BS propaganda.

  • Bones

    I did until I studied in seminary with Palestinian Christians.

    I made the mistake of telling them I recently went to a Jews for Jesus conference.

    Maybe you should ask Palestinian Christians why they don’t support Israel.

  • Montelatici

    I have seen all the Hasbara propaganda before. Luckily, there are documentaries by the Lumiere Brothers that actually show what Palestine was like in the late 1800s.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjEvqUmdth8

    There is no denying the fact that Christians and Muslims were 99% of the population when the Europeans began arriving in Palestine. And yes, the Christians of Palestine also have a claim to get their homes and land back. The Christians have never claimed otherwise.

  • Bones

    “Specific references to “Palestine” date back nearly five hundred years before “the time of Jesus.” In the 5th Century BCE, Herodotus, the first historian in Western civilization, referenced “Palestine” numerous times in chronicle of the ancient world, The Histories, including the following passage describing “Syrians of Palestine”:

    “…they live in the coastal parts of Syria; and that region of Syria and all that lies between it and Egypt is called Palestine.” (VII.89) The above translation by Harry Carter is featured in the 1958 Heritage Press edition of Herodotus’ famous work. Both older and newer versions corroborate the accuracy of the reference. A. D. Godley’s 1920 translation of the crucial line states, “This part of Syria as far as Egypt is all called Palestine”, while Robin Waterfield’s 1998 updated Oxford translationrenders the passage this way: “This part of Syria, all the way to the border with Egypt, is known as Palestine.”

    A hundred years later, in the mid-4th Century BCE, Aristotle made reference to the Dead Sea in his Meteorology. “Again if, as is fabled, there is a lake in Palestine, such that if you bind a man or beast and throw it in it floats and does not sink, this would bear out what we have said,” he wrote. “They say that this lake is so bitter and salt that no fish live in it and that if you soak clothes in it and shake them it cleans them.” (II.3)

    Two hundred years later, in the mid-2nd Century BCE, ancient geographer Polemon wroteof a place “not far from Arabia in the part of Syria called Palestine,” while Greek travel writer Pausanias wrote in his Description of Greece, “In front of the sanctuary grow palm-trees, the fruit of which, though not wholly edible like the dates of Palestine, yet are riper than those of Ionia.” (9.19.8)

    Despite the Zionists’ claim “the Romans didn’t rename Judea as ‘Palestina’ until a hundred years after the death of Jesus,” contemporaries of Jesus also routinely referred to Palestine as, well, Palestine. For instance, in the first decade of the 1st Century, the Roman poet Ovid mentioned Palestine in both his famed mythological poem Metamorphoses and his erotic elegy The Art of Love. He also wroteof “the waters of Palestine” in his calendrical poem Fasti. Around the same time, another Latin poet Tibullus wroteof “the crowded cities of Palestine” in a section “Messalla’s Triumph” in his poem Delia.

    The noted Alexandrian Jewish philosopher Philo, writing around the 1st Century CE, opined, “Also Syria in Palestine, which is occupied by no small part of the very populous nation of the Jews, is not unproductive of honourable virtue.” (XII.75)

    The Jewish historian Josephus (c.37-100 CE) was born and raised in Jerusalem, a military commander in Galilee during the First Jewish Revolt against the occupying Roman authority, acted as negotiator during the Siege of Jerusalem in 70 CE and later penned vital volumes of Levantine Jewish history. His The Jewish War, Antiquities of the Jews, and Against Apion all contain copious references to Palestine and Palestinians. Towards the end of Antiquities, Josephus writes, “I shall now, therefore, make an end here of my Antiquities; after the conclusion of which events, I began to write that account of the war; and these Antiquities contain what hath been delivered down to us from the original creation of man, until the twelfth year of the reign of Nero, as to what hath befallen the Jews, as well in Egypt as in Syria and in Palestine, and what we have suffered from the Assyrians and Babylonians, and what afflictions the Persians and Macedonians, and after them the Romans, have brought upon us; for I think I may say that I have composed this history with sufficient accuracy in all things.” (XX.11.2)

    The claim that the Roman emperor Hadrian, eager to punish Jewish inhabitants of Judea after the Bar Kokhba Revolt, officially changed the name of the region to “Syria Palaestina” or simply “Palestine” in 135 CE and forced the Jewish community into exile is dubious at best, especially when, by then, the terms “Syrian Palestine” and “Palestine” had already been in use for over six hundred years.”

    Golda Meir sent a handwritten postcard in 1930.

    It’s address

    PO Box 303
    Tel Aviv
    PALESTINE.

    Your comment that Palestine is a 1960s creation is a lie.

  • Montelatici

    Israel had disappeared more than 700 years before the Romans arrived and conquered Judea.

  • Bones

    Yes, you only need to see that Bethlehem and Nazareth are 100% Arab populations to know that.

  • Bones

    “this is when the arabs decided to come in.”

    Except for those living for hundreds if not thousands of years in Jerusalem, Nazareth (100% Arab), Bethlehem (100% Arab), Hebron, Ramallah, ….

  • Montelatici

    South Africans that lived under Apartheid have a different opinion.

    “Most of the contributions to this forum underline the obvious similarities between apartheid South Africa and Israeli policies toward the Palestinians. As Robin D.G. Kelley writes: “That Israel and its colonial occupation meet the UN’s definition of an apartheid state is beyond dispute.” Both apartheid South Africa and the Israeli state originated through a process of conquest and settlement largely justified on the grounds of religion and ethnic nationalism. Both pursued a legalized, large-scale program of displacing the earlier inhabitants from their land. Both instituted a variety of discriminatory laws based on racial or ethnic grounds. Outside of a tiny group of pro-Zionist organizations, the analogy is so widely accepted in South Africa that it draws little controversy. Indeed, leading members of the anti-apartheid struggle, including Archbishop Desmond Tutu and Jewish struggle veterans like Ronnie Kasrils, have repeatedly stated that the conditions in the West Bank and Gaza are “worse than apartheid.”

    https://africaisacountry.atavist.com/apartheidanalogy

  • Charlton Wilson

    I think you have your Scriptures very very very mixed up. :(

    Oh and for the record, Jesus is NOT coming back. If you UNDERSTOOD the Scriptures, you would know that Jesus already CAME BACK in 70AD, ‘AS’ Vespasian’s army (as He has done a number of times in the Old Testament), in judgement of Israel and meted out God’s wrath by destroying the Temple (the world) as He said He would, many times, throughout the gospels. Each time He said that these things would happen in His generation. Some 2000+ years later is NOT His generation.

  • Bernhard Henry Fynn

    There is absolutely NO similarity between Israel and apartheid south africa. In africa, the indiginous had to live by laws made by out siders, in Israel the indiginous people are living under their own laws.If others wish to live in Israel, they have to obey the laws made by the people of Israel and if incompatible it is not Israels’ fault.

  • Bernhard Henry Fynn

    This has been discounted long ago. The philistines are not native of this area.

  • Bernhard Henry Fynn

    abraham came from the area of persia.

  • Montelatici

    The non-white native people lived by the laws of the Bantustans they were citizens of. If they were in South Africa for work, or whatever, they had to adhere to the laws of Apartheid South Africa. No difference. Plus South Africans that lived under Apartheid and then observed what was going on in Israel know more than you about Apartheid.

  • Bernhard Henry Fynn

    “The land in Palestine
    is lacking in people to till its fertile soil”.

    – British archaeologist
    Thomas Shaw, mid-1700s –

    “Palestine is
    a ruined and desolate land”.

    – Count Constantine
    François Volney, XVIII century French author and historian –

    “The Arabs themselves
    cannot be considered but temporary residents. They pitched their tents
    in its grazing fields or built their places of refuge in its ruined cities.
    They created nothing in it. Since they were strangers to the land, they
    never became its masters. The desert wind that brought them hither could
    one day carry them away without their leaving behind them any sign of
    their passage through it”.

    – Comments by
    Christians concerning the Arabs in Palestine in the 1800s –

  • Bones

    Than neither are the Israelites.

  • Bones

    Arabs have been ilving for hundreds if not thousands of years in Jerusalem, Nazareth (100% Arab), Bethlehem (100% Arab), Hebron, Ramallah, ..

    I can repeat things too.

    Do you know that not all Arabs are Bedouin?..

  • Bones

    This is interesting on how long Palestine has been used…..

    Timeline of the name “Palestine”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_name_%22Palestine%22

  • Bones

    You need to stop lying…..

  • Charlton Wilson

    This is a gross untruth. I’ll happily share the link(s) if you wish.

  • seashell

    This is too good not to draw your attention to. Because HTML and formatting skillz are not utilized by BHF, it’s hard to miss the sources he listed. But one of them is Joseph Farrah, publisher of the WorldNutDaily and infamous birther ringleader, who believes that even the long form birth certificate the President produced is a forgery. He’s an evangelical Christian, too.

    Evaluate away, please!

  • Bones

    See Desmond Tutu on Israel

  • Charlton Wilson

    “the jews are gods’ chosen people and the fact that they are still there when millions of people want them gone , is testament to this.”

    NO sir. The Jews WERE God’s chosen people. Those who are IN CHRIST are the new CHOSEN people. Secondly, we live in a secular world and as such, International Law does not recognise God or the Scriptures as having ANY authority whatsoever.

    “Israel, Juda, was renamed palestine by the Roman occupiers in 135 A.D. and threw the troublesome jews out. ”

    NO. Vespasian’s army destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70AD and when the Jews fled the land, the land became ‘terra nullius’, meaning that the next inhabitants became the new owners of the land.

    “This nation called palestine is a 1960s invention.”

    NO. Palestine was recognised by His Majesty and Great Britain at least as far back as 1925. I’ve seen pictures of the British issued passports and currency clearly and categorically stating ‘Palestine’.

    “Israel is a sovereign nation and they make their own laws FOR THEM and anyone else who lives there are required to abide by those laws just as anyone living in another country not their own, does. .So Israel IS NOT an apartheid state.”

    NMO. Israel has absolutely NO RIGHT to the occupied territories and there its laws do not apply there. The fact that that there are TWO laws in Israel, one for Israeli citizens and one for the Palestinians, prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Israel is a racist and apartheid state.

    “When palestine was liberated from the Ottoman empire, the arabs were given the same opportunity as the jews for a land of their own and CHOSE to not accept, instead vowed to wipe Israel Off the map.”

    I have no idea what revisionist literature you are reading, but this is absolute and utter rubbish. The fact that people like Miko Peled, a former Israeli soldier, whose father was a general in the Israeli Military and whose grandfather was an Israeli signatory to the birth of Israel have all denounced Israel as racist (not to mention people like Finkelstein, Chomsky and Papé, just to name a few) and the FACT that there are many many many Jews around the world who are currently denouncing Israel’s treatment of Muslims and Christians in Israel speaks volumes in refuting your statements.

    Nice try though…

  • Bones

    News, shmoos.

    Christians aren’t leaving the West Bank because of Islam which they have lived with for hundreds of years.

    It’s Israeli expansionism and oppression which is forcing them out.

    Ongoing plight of Palestinian Christians

    Yet again, Israel restricts the movement of Christians as they celebrate Christmas.

    “Back in 1948, when Israel was established, Christians in Palestine made up around 18 percent of the population. Now it is around two percent only.

    They have been faced with the same discriminatory policies as Muslim Palestinians, pushing thousands to leave Palestine. In a 2006 poll, Christians living in Bethlehem said Israeli aggression and occupation was the main cause of emigration.”

    http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestory/2014/12/continuing-plight-palestinian-christians-20141225193823950539.html

    You are aware that Arab Christians were sheltering Arab Muslims during the Gaza offensive.

  • Charlton Wilson

    Please feel free to point out Israel (with borders and a Capital) on an ancient map and then show me the connection between Spiritual Israel of the Old Testament and the political Israel of today.

  • Charlton Wilson

    Nice. [:o)

  • Bones

    Also check out Walid Shoebat….

    He’s a confirmed liar.

    CNN Exposes ‘Ex-Terrorist’ Walid Shoebat as Fraud

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJN00dBhZVk

  • Charlton Wilson

    MOST Israeli’s are Ashkenazi or Shepardi Jews. The Ashkenazi are MAINLY converts. Please explain how does that give them ANY right to the Palestinian land?

  • Jeff Preuss

    Somehow, Baby Shoebat seems more unhinged, if it’s even possible.

  • seashell

    Considering how he felt about Christians in general, Twain may not offer the most credible account of Holy Land conditions in the mid
    1800s. He said almost the same thing about Greece in the same book:

    "From Athens all through the islands of the Grecian Archipelago, we saw little but forbidden sea-walls and barren hills, sometimes surmounted by three or four graceful columns of some ancient temples, lonely and deserted—a fitting symbol of desolation that has come upon all Greece in these latter ages. We saw no ploughed fields, very few villages, no trees or grass or vegetation of any kind, scarcely, and hardly ever an isolated house. Greece is a bleak, unsmiling desert, without agriculture, manufactures, or commerce, apparently."

  • Bones

    “Arabs teach their children, beginning in preschool, that Jews are actually monkeys, and the only good Jew, is a dead Jew.”

    Here we go using extremism to paint every single Arab.

    “Nowhere do you find Israelis teaching their children to hate Christians, Americans, Muslims, or any other race, or religion, or gender in their schools as you’ll find in any Arab school.”

    Really.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPzYExjz6Io

    You are aware that there are Jews who think the only good Arab is a dead Arab – Muslim or Christian.

    No doubt you pander to that sort of racism.

    “I also find it particularly creepy that the Palestinians and Arabs in general spew propaganda that Israel has no right to exist.”

    Ever heard of the 2 state solution?

    Now who is against that and doesn’t want a Palestinian state?

    Heck Israel had a major dummy spit when the Palestinian flag was flown at the UN.

    You are a racist.

    You hate peace.

    You would rather Christian Arabs stay under oppression from the Israeli state.

    There is something seriously wrong with you.

  • seashell

    Oh yeah. Shoebat & Son are just a part of that conservative Christian Jesus Prosperity Industry – a money making racket that privatizes its profits and socializes its taxes, preys on the vulnerable and then prays over them before it shuns them. Also known for invading various countries and women’s vaginas.

  • Please. Enough with the anecdotal instances and generalizing. You’re just an antisemitic propagandist. Give it a rest. Otherwise, tell me how many Jews are your friends, and how many Muslims do you know personally.

    Of course, you don’t have any Jewish friends. What kind of question is that?

  • Bernhard Henry Fynn

    Israel did NOT come about through conquest, It came about through the U.N. where is the conquest??????????. As the land that is now Israel, they had every right to move people out,IT IS THEIR LAND, LEGALLY, through the U.N. What part of that do you not understand.????????????????????????????

  • Bernhard Henry Fynn

    The jews are FOREVER gods people, but to come into Gods’ kingdom, they have to accept christ as their saviour.

    “The land in Palestine
    is lacking in people to till its fertile soil”.

    – British archaeologist
    Thomas Shaw, mid-1700s –

    “Palestine is
    a ruined and desolate land”.

    – Count Constantine
    François Volney, XVIII century French author and historian –

    “The Arabs themselves
    cannot be considered but temporary residents. They pitched their tents
    in its grazing fields or built their places of refuge in its ruined cities.
    They created nothing in it. Since they were strangers to the land, they
    never became its masters. The desert wind that brought them hither could
    one day carry them away without their leaving behind them any sign of
    their passage through it”.

    – Comments by
    Christians concerning the Arabs in Palestine in the 1800s –

    The
    land called “Palestine”

    In
    the 2nd century c.e., the last attempt of the Jews
    to achieve independence from the Roman Empire ended with the well-known
    event of Masada, that is historically documented and universally recognized
    as the fact that determined the Jewish Diaspora in a definitive way. The
    Land where these things happened was until then the province known as Judæa
    ,
    and there is no mention of any place called “Palestine” before
    that time. The Roman emperor Hadrian was utterly upset with the Jewish Nation
    and wanted to erase the name of Israel and Judah from the face of the Earth,
    so that there would be no memory of the country that belonged to that rebel
    people. He decided to replace the denomination of that Roman province and
    resorted to ancient history in order to find a name that might appear appropriate,
    and found that an extinct people that was unknown in Roman times, called
    “Philistines”, was once dwelling in that area and were enemies
    of the Israelites. Therefore, according to Latin spelling, he invented the
    new name: “Palæstina”,
    a name that would be also hateful for the Jews as it reminded them their
    old foes. He did so with the explicit purpose of effacing any trace of Jewish
    history. Ancient Romans, as well as modern Palestinians, have fulfilled
    the Hebrew Scriptures Prophecy that declares: “They
    lay crafty plans against Your People… they say: ‘come, let us wipe them
    out as a nation; let the name of Israel be remembered no more’.” – Tehilim
    83:3-4 (Psalm 83:3-4). They
    failed, as Israel is still alive. Any honest person would recognize that
    there is no mention of the name Palestina in history before the Romans
    renamed the province of Judea, that such name does not occur in any ancient
    document, is not written in the Bible, neither in the Hebrew Scriptures
    nor in the Christian Testament, not even in Assyrian, Persian, Macedonian,
    Ptolemaic, Seleucian or other Greek sources, and that not any “Palestinian”
    people has ever been mentioned, not even by the Romans that invented the
    term. If “Palestinians” allegedly are the historic inhabitants of the Holy
    Land, why did they not fight for independence from Roman occupation as Jews
    did? How is it possible that not a single Palestinian leader heading for
    a revolt against the Roman invaders is mentioned in any historic record?
    Why there is not any Palestinian rebel group mentioned, as for example the
    Jewish Zealots? Why every historic document mentions the Jews as the native
    inhabitants, and the Greeks, Romans and others as foreigners dwelling in
    Judea, but not any Palestinian people, neither as native nor as foreigner?
    What is more, there is no reference to any Palestinian people in the qur’an
    (koran), although muslims claim that their prophet was once in Jerusalem
    (an event that is not mentioned in the koran either). It appears evident
    that he did not meet any Palestinian in his whole life, nor his successors
    did either. Caliph Salahuddin al-Ayyub (Saladin), knew the Jews and kindly
    invited them to settle in Jerusalem, that he recognized as their Homeland,
    but he did not know any Palestinian… To claim that Palestinians are the
    original people of Eretz Yisrael is not only against secular history but
    also against Islamic history!

    The name “Falastin” that Arabs today use for “Palestine” is not an Arabic
    name, but adopted and adapted from the Latin Palæstina
    .
    How can an Arab people have a western name instead of one in their own language?
    Because the use of the term “Palestinian” for an Arab group is only a modern
    political creation without any historic or ethnic grounds, and did not indicate
    any people before 1967. An Arab writer and journalist declared:

    “There has never
    been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians
    are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention),
    Syrians, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent
    of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of one percent of
    the landmass. But that’s too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And
    that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today… No matter
    how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough”.

    – Joseph Farah,
    “Myths of the Middle East” –

    “As I lived in
    Palestine, everyone I knew could trace their heritage back to the original
    country their great grandparents came from. Everyone knew their origin
    was not from the Canaanites, but ironically, this is the kind of stuff
    our education in the Middle East included. The fact is that today’s Palestinians
    are immigrants from the surrounding nations! I grew up well knowing the
    history and origins of today’s Palestinians as being from Yemen, Saudi
    Arabia, Morocco, Christians from Greece, muslim Sherkas from Russia, muslims
    from Bosnia, and the Jordanians next door. My grandfather, who was a dignitary
    in Bethlehem, almost lost his life by Abdul Qader Al-Husseni (the leader
    of the Palestinian revolution) after being accused of selling land to
    Jews. He used to tell us that his village Beit Sahur (The Shepherds Fields)
    in Bethlehem County was empty before his father settled in the area with
    six other families. The town has now grown to 30,000 inhabitants”.

    – Walid Shoebat,
    an “ex-Palestinian” Arab –

  • Bernhard Henry Fynn

    Palestine may have been recognised, but NOT as an arab indepedent state, ALL the people that lived there were palestinians, this does not mean that the arabs have any claim over it. You the rest are talking through a hole in your head.

  • Bones

    Stop being an idiot. Youre the one who claims Arabs want Jews dead. If that isnt a generalisation then nothing is.

    You know no Palestinians.

    I do.

    And they do not want Arabs dead neither do most Jews want Arabs dead.

    You’re a vile racist who supports an apartheid state.

  • Bones

    Nope.

    Bethlehem, Nazareth, Hebron have been Arab cities for well over a thousand years.

  • Bones

    So therefore the whole land is Palestine which should be governed for ALL.

    But Israel doesnt want that. They dont even want Palestinians to have their own country.

    They want the land without the Arabs.

    Yet again you show yourself as a braindead fool.

  • OK, you’re now just throwing insults with nothing else to add. Go away.

  • Bernhard Henry Fynn

    No they haven’t.”As I lived in
    Palestine, everyone I knew could trace their heritage back to the original
    country their great grandparents came from. Everyone knew their origin
    was not from the Canaanites, but ironically, this is the kind of stuff
    our education in the Middle East included. The fact is that today’s Palestinians
    are immigrants from the surrounding nations! I grew up well knowing the
    history and origins of today’s Palestinians as being from Yemen, Saudi
    Arabia, Morocco, Christians from Greece, muslim Sherkas from Russia, muslims
    from Bosnia, and the Jordanians next door. My grandfather, who was a dignitary
    in Bethlehem, almost lost his life by Abdul Qader Al-Husseni (the leader
    of the Palestinian revolution) after being accused of selling land to
    Jews. He used to tell us that his village Beit Sahur (The Shepherds Fields)
    in Bethlehem County was empty before his father settled in the area with
    six other families. The town has now grown to 30,000 inhabitants”.

    – Walid Shoebat,
    an “ex-Palestinian” Arab

  • seashell

    Meantime, nowhere do you find Israelis teaching their children to hate Christians, Americans, Muslims, or any other race, or religion, or gender in their schools as you’ll find in any Arab school.

    Humpf. Too bad we can’t say the same about US conservative Christians. They pretty much suffer from butt hurt against everyone not while male Conservative Christians and the Jews in Israel (as long as they stay in Israel).

  • Charlton Wilson

    This is getting silly. You have not argued against any of my statements. All you’ve done is go off on tangents. If you can’t debate a topic, please say so and we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

    Oh and I see you tend to resort to ‘ad hominem’. A true sign of those who cannot engage in a proper debate.

    So far, you’ve shown that you are clueless as to the Scriptures, you are zionist, but you’re not exactly sure why AND you are happy to see Israel kill Palestinians at will. Palestinians are made up of Muslims AND Christians. The New Testament is clear about looking after the Saints first, yet you would put ‘cultural’ Jews over your brothers and sisters in Christ.

    Good one… I’m sure Jesus, the Christ, will be ever so proud of you.

    Oh wait… then again… probably not. :(

  • Charlton Wilson

    This is a BLATANT lie. Compare the map of Israel in 1948 to the map of Israel now and tell me that they are the same.

    You CAN’T, because the Israel of today includes the illegally occupied territories that were stolen at gunpoint. A crime that Israel commits EVERYDAY.

  • Charlton Wilson

    I asked you this already, but it seems that you either chose to ignore it or you don’t have an answer.

    “The jews have every right to this partition, the arabs do NOT. ”

    By what measure do the Jews have this right?

    Possession being nine tenths of the law and the Palestinians have papers to the lands.

  • Charlton Wilson

    Those who are in Christ are the new Israel. If you’re goiing to quote Scripture, how about sharing the WHOLE truth?

    Paul ALSO said, Romans 2:28-29 (NKJV) 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

    Paul went to say, Philippians 3:3 (NKJV) 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit,[a] rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,

    Bottom line, Paul said that those who are in Christ (the Church) is the New Israel.

  • Bones

    You are the one insulting.

    You came on here to throw insults around and call people who criticise a secular western government, anti-semitic.

    You have nothing to add.

    You don’t even understand what being a Christian is.

    Go away and talk to some Palestinians instead of looking like a complete and total pratt.

  • Charlton Wilson

    “…not in camps by the way and enjoying the same rights as their Jewish nationals …”

    I beg to differ. Jews and non-Jewish citizens of Israel DO NOT share the SAME citizenship rights. That is a blatant lie.

    Unless the laws have changed since this article a few years ago, THIS is STILL the case and refutes your statement(s).

  • Bones

    Walid Shoebat is a liar.

    Why am I not surprised you would quote him.

    And most Israelis are immigrants, you clown.

  • Bones

    Look out or he’ll quote Mark Twain again….

  • Bones

    “No they haven’t.”

    Ok. Show me the evidence that Nazareth, Bethlehem and Hebron have been empty in the last thousand years.

    Your quote from fraud Shoebat merely mentions the village of Beit Sahur.

  • Bones

    “Meantime, Israel doesn’t respond in kind.”

    Really…

    May I introduce Israel’s new justice minister….

    Mothers of all Palestinians must be killed: Israeli MP

    “A well-known Israeli politician and parliament member has branded Palestinians as terrorists, saying mothers of all Palestinians should also be killed during the ongoing Israeli assault on the besieged Gaza Strip, Daily Sabah reported.

    Ayelet Shaked of the ultra-nationalist Jewish Home party called for the slaughter of Palestinian mothers who give birth to “little snakes.”

    “They have to die and their houses should be demolished so that they cannot bear any more terrorists,” Shaked said, adding, “They are all our enemies and their blood should be on our hands. This also applies to the mothers of the dead terrorists.”

    The remarks are considered as a call for genocide as she declared that all Palestinians are Israel’s enemies and must be killed. ”

    http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/07/16/371556/israel-must-kill-all-palestinian-mothers/

  • Michiel de Jong

    OK, give me one example where the rights between citizens of Israel differs, based on ethnicity or religion. ….

  • Michiel de Jong

    Well,.. maybe there is a misunderstanding here. When the author of the article stated that Christian (Arabs) are being persecuted, I assume that the author is talking about Israeli citizens. It would be ridiculous to think that the Israeli government is persecuting Christians in Occupied territories or neighbouring countries.
    Now you come up with a report of Amnesty on the Gaza war… It might very well be that Israel is very aggressive against rocket firing neighbouringh regions, but that still doesn’t constitute persecution of Christians.
    (Ironical you mentioned Gaza….., Israel left that territory and what ever Christian minority is left there,… they are persecuted! And that will be the fate of your Christian Arab friends when Israel leaves the West Bank. Same as Christians is Syria, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, Egypt,… )
    But tell me,… why is an increasing number of Christian Arab youth joining the IDF?
    (Concerning my “ignorance”… I have been there,.. in Israel, on the West bank, in Jerusalem,… to the extend I saw and heard the explosion of a suicide bomber, about 400[m] away from me,.. close to the city of Tulkarm in 2003.)

  • Charlton Wilson
  • Bones

    Rula Jebreal: How I’m Treated as a Minority in Israel

    My mother, Zakia, was so proud that my sister and I spoke better Hebrew than Arabic. Osman, my father, believed that by achieving the highest levels of education, we would one day be treated as equal in our country, Israel. He sincerely believed that Palestinians capable of articulating their narrative would win the hearts and minds of Israeli Jews.

    My parents believed in the promise of a democracy that transcends ethnicity. I still retain that dream, but it is tested every time I go home. I am a citizen of Israel, married to an American Jew, yet I am not welcome in Israel. For I am Palestinian.

    During a recent visit, my husband breezed through security at Ben-Gurion airport, but our teenage daughter and I — who both have dual citizenship of Israel and Italy — were strip-searched. I’m inured to the procedure: I have to endure it almost every time I enter and leave the country. But our daughter, age 17, sobbed with chagrin. “This place breeds hate everywhere!” she cried.

    On the same trip, I attempted to renew her Israeli passport. “She is not Jewish,” an official told me, “and therefore we are not sure she is entitled to citizenship.”

    For Israeli Palestinians — and we make up 20 percent of the population — these are ordinary humiliations. But I wonder what my parents, both now dead, would have made of the graffiti that recently appeared on the walls of our family home in Haifa, a mixed city in the north of Israel.

    “Death to Arabs,” it read.

    During the recent war between Israel and Hamas in the Gaza Strip, my cousin was walking on the beach near her home, also in Haifa. She overheard a group of Israeli sunbathers casually discussing how the Israeli Army should deal with the residents of Gaza — “Just kill them all,” she heard one say.

    “I’ve never felt so scared in my 32 years,” she told me. “I don’t want them to know I’m Palestinian.”

    Israel is increasingly becoming a project of ethno-religious purity and exclusion. Religious Zionist and ultra-Orthodox parties occupy 30 of the 120 seats in the Knesset, and the coalition government includes members of Jewish Home, a religious Zionist party, and Yisrael Beiteinu, a right-wing nationalist party. Central to their politics is a program of discriminatory legislation, designed to curtail the civil rights of Palestinian Israeli citizens.

    Chief among the more than 50 discriminatory Israeli laws documented by Adalah, the Haifa-based Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, is the Law of Return, which automatically guarantees Israeli citizenship for every Jew regardless of birthplace. Often, they are shepherded into settlements in the West Bank (illegal under international law), where they receive government benefits. Palestinian Israeli citizens, meanwhile, are subject to a ban on family reunification: If they marry a fellow Palestinian from the West Bank or Gaza, they are prohibited from living in Israel under the Citizenship and Entry Into Israel Law.

    In September, Israel’s Supreme Court dismissed a petition challenging the Admissions Committees Law, which allows communities to reject housing applicants based on “cultural and social suitability” — a legal pretext to deny residency to non-Jews. In practice, even before the law was passed, it was virtually impossible for a Palestinian to buy or rent a home in any majority-Jewish city.

    Further ethnic separation is maintained by the education system. Aside from a few mixed schools, most educational institutions in Israel are divided into Arab and Jewish ones. According to Nurit Peled-Elhanan, a Hebrew University professor of sociology who has produced the most comprehensive survey of Israeli public school curriculums, not one positive reference to Palestinians exists in Israeli high school textbooks. Palestinians are described as either “Arab farmers with no nationality” or fearsome “terrorists,” as Professor Peled-Elhanan documented in her book “Palestine in Israeli School Books: Ideology and Propaganda in Education.”

    Israel’s system of segregation has led to a situation where, according to a recent poll, 42 percent of Jews say they have never met a Palestinian.

    Historically, ultra-Orthodox Jews did not serve in the armed forces. Today, they do — and serve in every capacity, including in the most important elite Israeli army units, such as the Sayeret Matkal special forces and Unit 8200, whose responsibilities include gathering intelligence on any Palestinian they deem a “security threat.”

    Unlike every former head of Shin Bet, Israel’s equivalent of the F.B.I., Yoram Cohen, who today heads the agency, is a religious Jew. That change is typical of Israeli society. The greater integration of ultra-Orthodox Jews clearly offers benefits to Jewish Israelis, but for Palestinian Israeli citizens, it has meant a new, religiously inspired racism, on top of the old secular discrimination.

    National leaders proudly promote hate policies. Israel’s foreign minister and the leader of the secular nationalist Yisrael Beiteinu party, Avigdor Lieberman, has championed a call to boycott the businesses of Palestinian citizens of Israel and, ominously, has even sought to make the “transfer” of Palestinians legal. Secretary of State John Kerry has met with Mr. Lieberman — apparently without challenging him on such reprehensible views.

    This is the atmosphere in which Israel’s Palestinians live. And there is no redress available to us elsewhere. Our rights and welfare certainly cannot be represented by the Palestinian Authority, whose jurisdiction is limited to partial control of the population of the West Bank. Its president, Mahmoud Abbas, cannot negotiate for us because we are Israeli citizens. Israel, however, prefers not to think of us as such, and thus resorts to all manner of petty aggressions to prove it, like trying to deny my daughter a new passport.

    Israel is quick to point out efforts to delegitimize the Jewish state. Yet what truly undermines Israel’s international standing is not its critics, but Israel’s abysmal treatment of its own citizens who are Palestinian. It is little different than other countries that have systematically discriminated against and segregated a whole class of its people based on race, religion and ethnicity.

    While Israel (like the United States) claims to abhor racism and human rights violations elsewhere, the country’s political leadership is actively enacting laws that ensure a pervasive institutionalized system of discrimination. What Israel needs, conversely, is a civil rights movement.

    Rula Jebreal is a journalist, foreign policy analyst and author.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/opinion/rula-jebreal-minority-life-in-israel.html?ref=international&_r=0

  • Charlton Wilson

    This ‘MIGHT’ still be in place. I haven’t had a chance to look into it as yet.

    http://www.wrmea.org/1990-january/israel-s-two-tiered-citizenship-law-bars-non-jews-from-93-percent-of-its-lands.html

  • Charlton Wilson
  • Michiel de Jong

    For your information: The Gaza war doesn’t took place for reasons of stone throwing.
    It was for reasons of rocket firing from the Gaza aiming at Israeli citizens… not just one day,… not just one rocket..

  • Bones

    Why were they firing rockets?

  • Bones

    For someone who says they’ve been there, you know shit about it.

    “It would be ridiculous to think that the Israeli government is persecuting Christians in Occupied territories”

    Oh really.

    I take it you didn’t get to see Jewish settlers burn a Palestinian girl alive? Or my minister friends being evicted from their houses at gunpoint by the IDF?

    Nah, you didn’t see that.

    Israel’s all hunky dorey according to you.

    “Israel left that territory and what ever Christian minority is left there,… they are persecuted! And that will be the fate of your Christian Arab friends when Israel leaves the West Bank. Same as Christians is Syria, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, Egypt,… ) ”

    Well that’s how stupid you are.

    Christians are leaving Bethlehem because of treatment by the IDF, not because of Islam which they have lived with for hundreds of years.

    This is a political conflict which you want to make into a religious conflict.

    Palestinians, Christian and Muslim, are united in their opposition to Israel.

    But you see nothing…..

    “But tell me,… why is an increasing number of Christian Arab youth joining the IDF?”

    You seem to think 100 Christian Arabs joining the IDF out of a population of 160 000 as some sort of endorsement.

    They do it to integrate into Israeli society

    “Capt. (res.) Shadi Halul of the Upper Galilee town of Jish, who served in the Paratroop Brigade and is a descendent of displaced residents of Biram, admits that there is inequality and institutionalized discrimination against Arabs and Christians. However, he says, “I go on the assumption that I have no other country and so I must act to receive my full rights.” He believes this will put Arabs in a position to pressure the government for their full rights.”

    read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.573172

  • Bones

    The Gaza War was the result of renegade Hamas members abducting and killing three Israeli teenagers. For that Israel arrested 800 Palestinians and killed 9 most of whom had nothing to do with it and destroyed hundreds of houses.

    The two abductors were killed by the IDF in a shootout.

    Their goal to inflame tension between Hamas and Israel.

    They succeeded.

  • Montelatici

    Of course there was conquest, without conquest the British would not have been able to implement the Balfour Declaration.. Do you think the Palestinian Christians and Muslims welcomed the British with flowers announcing their agreement with the Balfour Declaration whose intent was to remove them to make room for a bunch of Europeans? There is nothing legal about taking land from the native people and transferring a population from a different continent to it. What is it about ethnic cleansing that you can’t understand?????????????????????

  • Oh– words DO have meaning. I don’t support the secular, modern nation state of Israel because it is violent and harmful to others. But I DO support biblical Israel. Biblical Israel is the Church of Jesus and biblical Jews are those who follow Jesus– according to St. Paul.

    Israel/Jews of the Bible have nothing to do with the modern, secular nation state called Israel. They share the same name, but that’s about it.

    I’d encourage you to brush up on Pauline theology because you are confusing a modern socio-political identity with the actual Israel of the Bible– the Church.

  • JD

    Rocket attacks that have killed 50 Israelis from 2001-2014. Nobody is denying that those rocket attacks are evil. What we are saying is that Israel has answered evil with evil, and at a grossly disproportionate rate. We are saying that we support neither evil, but instead long for peace. We realize the church isn’t supposed to be picking between evils, but instead we are to be a beacon of healing and comfort to those broken by the cycle of violence.

  • Jeff Preuss

    This is EXACTLY it. Answering evil with evil is not something that should just get a pass if perpetrated by Israel.

  • Montelatici

    While records of the European Zionist migration to Palestine are not generally available in English. British records confirm that migration to Palestine from 1922 thru 1944 was of overwhelmingly of European Jews.

    “5. As shown in table 3 the expansion of the Moslem and Christian populations is due mainly to natural increase, while that of the Jews is due mainly to immigration. ”

    From the Survey of Palestine Vol. 1, page 140

    Downloadable from the Berman Jewish Policy Archive (NYU & Wagner) via the link below.

    http://www.bjpa.org/Publications/downloadFile.cfm?FileID=17184

  • “What is it about ethnic cleansing that you can’t understand?”

    Blinded by a religion that envisions God running an apartheid Universe what can we expect.

  • The Happy Atheist

    It was? Please, by all means post source(s) that demonstrate that this statement is true.

    (Hint: You won’t find anything, because it’s NOT true.)

    Extrabiblical sources indicate that the Philistines probably migrated from somewhere on the southern Mediterranean coast maybe a few hundred years before the Israelites supposedly arrived. They lived in the mountainous areas just east of the northern plain and frequently skirmished with the other inhabitants, which are about the only things that accord with the bible.

    By 1948, of course, the Arab population was thoroughly mixed, but many of the Arabs identified as Palestinians, just as they do today.

    Seriously. Read a book. Try this one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00APMP5OY/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?ie=UTF8&btkr=1

  • The people you have been trying to refute have refuted you at every turn. Their scholarship is exactly that. While you are just passing on propaganda. Calling them ‘dickbrains’ and ‘anti-Semitic’.

    All of this to serve, what should be by now, an obviously flawed understanding.

    Why would God have a ‘chosen people’ in the first place? Why impose an apartheid system on creation?

    Why would you and folks like you, fall for it, and spend days (years?, lifetimes?) scrambling to assemble implausible rational in support of an absurdity?

  • JD

    What does “support Israel” even mean to you? Does it mean cheering them on when they return evil for evil? If so, then I absolutely do not support Israel.

    How about, instead of backing a political entity such as the nation state of Israel, we support those that bear God’s image? This includes Jew, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. Let’s love all those involved in this mess currently taking place in the ME. Let’s call for answering evil with love and self-sacrifice. Let’s call for stopping this vicious cycle of answering evil with evil.

    So, I support Israelis and I support Palestinians. I pray for peace and that peacemakers will come to the forefront and expose the evils perpetrated by the leadership of both sides. I pray that the church, instead of picking a side, will stand in the middle and be a source of reconciliation. All are created in the image of God. We, as a church, need to start treating others as though we actually believe that truth.

  • The Happy Atheist

    Jeez. Joseph Farrah, really? He’s as loony as they come, Bernhard Henry Fynn. He has no scholarly credentials. In fact, he has virtually no education in Ancient Near Eastern history at all. Studying this time period requires Koine Greek and either Hebrew or Arabic *at the very least.* The most accomplished scholars have deep fluency in those two languages plus Ancient Greek, Akkadian, or Aramaic (which is a close cousin to Modern Standard Arabic).

    For your edification, this is what actual reputable sources on this topic look like:

    Ferrell, Robert H. Dear Bess: the Letters from Harry to Bess Truman, 1910-1959. New York: W.W. Norton and Company, 1983.

    Finch, Henry. The World’s Great Restauration or the Calling of the Iewes and (with them) of all the Nations and Kingdomes of the Earth to the Faith of Christ. London: Edward Griffin, 1621.

    Gettleman, Marvin E and Schaar, Stuart, eds. The Middle East and Islamic World Reader. New York: Grove Press, 2003.

    Hall, Joseph. The Revelation Unrevealed. London: John Bisse, 1650.

    Herzl, Theodor. Der Judenstaat. New York: Dover Publications, 1988.

    Laqueur, Walter and Rubin, Barry eds. The Israel – Arab Reader. New York: Penguin Books, 2008.

    Truman, Harry S. Memoirs, vol. 2, Years of Decision. New York: Doubleday & Company, 1956.

    Documents related to “Zionism,” the Jewish-American Society for Historic Preservation website, http://www.jewish-american-society-for-historic-preservation.org.

    Documents related to “World Reaction [to the Holocaust],” Jewish Virtual Library website, http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/index.html.

    Documents related to “Conflict in Context,” Institute for Palestine Studies website, http://www.palestine-studies.org/.

    Documents related to “The Recognition of the State of Israel,” the Truman Library website, http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/index.php?action=docs.

    Documents related to “American President: Harry S. Truman,” University of Virginia Miller Center website, http://millercenter.org/president/truman.

    Bain, Kenneth Ray. The March to Zion. College Station: Texas A&M University Press, 1979.

    Beschloss, Michael. The Conquerors. New York: Simon & Schuster, 2003.

    Clark, Victoria. Allies for Armageddon. New Haven: Yale University Press, 2007.

    Cohen, Michael J. “Truman and Palestine, 1945-1948: Revisionism, Politics and Diplomacy.”

    Modern Judaism 2, No. 1 (Feb., 1982): 1-22, http://www.jstor.org/stable/1396127.

    Davidson, Lawrence. “Truman the Politician and the Establishment of Israel.” Journal of Palestine

    Studies XXXIX, no.4 (2010): 28-42, America: History and Life, EBSCOhost (accessed October 6, 2011).

    Evensen, Bruce J. “Truman, Palestine and the Cold War.” Middle Eastern Studies 28, No. 1 (Jan., 1992): 120-156, http://www.jstor.org/stable/4283481.

    Fishman, Hertzel. American Protestants and a Jewish State. Detroit: Wayne State University Press, 1973.

    Gaustad, Edwin and Schmidt, Leigh. The Religious History of America. New York: Harper One, 2004.

    Goldman, Shalom. Zeal for Zion. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 2009.

    Grosser, Paul E. and Halpern, Edwin G. The Causes and Effects of Anti-Semitism: The Dimensions of a Prejudice. New York: Philosophical Library, 1978.

    Hill, Benjamin W. “To Earn a Living: Harry S. Truman’s Successes and Failures in Business, the Military, and Politics, 1902-1926.” (Master’s thesis, AASU, 2011).

    Huff, Earl D. “A Study of a Successful Interest Group: The American Zionist Movement.” The Western Political Quarterly 25, no. 1 (March, 1972): 109-124, http://www.jstor.org/stable/446738.

    Jenkins Roy. Truman. New York: Harper Perennial, 1986.

    Khalidi, Walid. All that Remains: The Palestinian Villages Occupied and Depopulated by Israel in 1948. Washington, D.C.: Institute for Palestine Studies, 1992.

    Kiracofe, Clifford A. Dark Crusade: Christian Zionism and U.S. Foreign Policy. New York: I.B. Taurus, 2009.

    Kramer, Gudrun. A History of Palestine from the Ottoman Conquest to the Founding of the State of Israel. New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 2008.

    McCullough, David. Truman. New York: Simon & Schuster, 1992.

    Mead, Walter Russell. “The New Israel and the Old.” Foreign Affairs 87, no. 4 (July 2008): 1-15,

    America: History & Life, EBSCOhost (accessed October 6, 2011).

    Merkley, Paul C. The Politics of Christian Zionism. Portland: Cass Publishing, 1998.

    Morris, Benny. 1948: The First Arab-Israeli War. New Haven: Yale University Press, 2008.

    Pappe, Ilan. The Forgotten Palestinians. New Haven: Yale University Press, 2011.

    Penkower, Monty Noam, “The Venting of Presidential Spleen: Harry S. Truman’s Jewish Problem,”

    The Jewish Quarterly Review 94, no. 4 (2004): 615-624, http://www.jstor.org/stable/1455595.

    Peters, Joan. From Time Immemorial. New York: Harper Perennial, 1985.

    Radosh, Allis and Ronald. A Safe Haven. New York: Harper Perennial, 2009.

    Rock, David. “War and Postwar Intersections, Latin America and the United States,” in Latin America in the 40’s, edited by David Rock. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1994.

    Schlomo Shafir, “Taylor and McDonald: Two Diverging Views on Zionism and the Emerging Jewish State.” Jewish Social Studies 39 no. 4 (1977): 323-346, http://www.jstor.org/stable/4466972.

    Spalding Elizabeth Edwards, The First Cold Warrior: Harry Truman, Containment and the Remaking of Liberal Internationalism. Lexington: University of Kentucky Press, 2006.

    Wells, Allen. Tropical Zion. Durham: Duke University Press, 2009.

    Wilson, Evan M. “The American Interest in the Palestine Question and the Establishment of Israel.”

    Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science 401, America and the Middle East (May, 1972): 64-73, http://www.jstor.org/stable/1039113.

    Wright, N.T. The New Testament and the People of God. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1992.

  • Michiel de Jong

    Well, let me remind you of the function of the power of the state and the legitimacy to use it. In order to fulfil its obligation to its citizens, the state, not only has the right to use force, but has the duty to use it if that’s what it takes to protect its citizens.
    There is no doubt that a continuing stream of rockets being fired upon your population is a just cause for war. One may disagree on the issue of proportionality. But in an asymmetric war, it is the ‘freedom fighter’ who often aim their indiscriminate violence on the civil population and choose to hide between the civil population, … have their rocket production facilities under schools and hospitals. Taking them out, which is necessary to stop the rockets, will cost lives of civilians, very unfortunate,… But one may ask the question;…who is to blame… the ‘freedom fighters’ who choose to terrorize two populations, or the state who tries to protect its own citizens, in response?

  • The Happy Atheist

    Walid Shoebat is a crackpot of the highest order His “I-used-to-be-a-terrorist” biography has been debunked by a number of people. He’s another one who has no business taking an authoritative stance on anything in the Middle East because he’s not qualified to have one.

  • Michiel de Jong

    What ever the reason is,… there is no justification for firing rockets, aiming civilians. … and no state can be blamed for trying to stop it.

  • And this is what is so absurd about a blind support of Israel: “I’m going to take your land and houses, use daily discrimination and violence against your family and friends, and the moment you fight back I’ll call it “justification” for war.”

  • Jeff Preuss

    A justified holy war that is neither justified nor holy.

  • JD

    “who is to blame… the ‘freedom fighters’ who choose to terrorize two populations, or the state who tries to protect its own citizens, in response?”

    I love the obviously slanted way you ask the question. Who is to blame? The oppressed that are responding to violent oppression with violence, or the state who uses grossly disproportionate violence in response? See, it’s a matter of perspective. That’s why, regardless of how much one wants to hide behind the abomination of ‘just war theory’, we as His church should have no role in that. We, as His church, aren’t driven by man-made rationalizations, such as just war theory. We are driven by the nonviolent teachings of Jesus Christ. We aren’t to be supporting any side responding to evil with evil.

  • JD

    Ben, with the recent mentions of ‘just war theory’, I’m reminded of this great piece from Greg Boyd: http://reknew.org/2015/10/the-heresy-of-just-war/

  • Michiel de Jong

    You haven’t read or understand the article you refer to in your link…, obviously. In the first sentence it is already clear. BOTH, Jews AND Arab were refused the right by the court to change their affiliation in their respective ID.
    Reminds me of a similar court procedure of a bunch of men and women here who don’t want to be identified as such in their IDs. The judge didn’t make a distinction between the men and the women,.. he dismissed the demand of both of them.

  • Michiel de Jong

    “Jewish settlers burn a Palestinian girl alive”… again,.. the fact that Jewish settlers can be violent against Arab girls, doesn’t constitutes persecution of Christians by the state of Israel. I condemn this kind of actions and I am sure that when the authorities will find the guys, they will be in jail for a very long time.
    “Palestinians, Christian and Muslim, are united in their opposition to Israel.” Well, .. I doubt that. The suicide bombings, the firing of rockets, the stabbing of random civilians, the throwing of stones,… it’s all done by just one of those two.
    “You seem to think 100 Christian Arabs joining the IDF out of a population of 160 000 as some sort of endorsement.”
    Yes, actually I do. The potential of ‘joiners’ out of this 160.000 is about 1500. 1 out of 15 (and growing) to join voluntarily a dangerous, lousy paid, unpopular job can be considered as an endorsement.
    … and imagining myself in that situation…. living in a land together with a majority population who immigrated to the land my grandparents were living in… who always singles me out for investigation at the airport,… lousy, annoying,… But look at the alternatives… Hezbollah in the north, Hamas in the west, Isis in the east and the Muslim Brothers in the south,…. “uhmmm”…. after careful consideration,.. I would join the IDF.

  • Montelatici

    Israel was Israel and Judah was Judah, they are not the same place.

  • Dennis Wilson

    I support Israel’s right to exist. Israel’s enemies call for the destruction of Israel instead. Which do you support?
    I support Israel’s right to destroy those targets where its enemies fire missiles from, seeking to kill Its citizens. Would you prefer Israel let its enemies destroy Israel and its citizens?
    You asked “Does it mean cheering them on when they return evil for evil?” Do you call killing those who try to kill you an evil act?
    You said “Let’s call for answering evil with love and self-sacrifice.” What does that mean regarding Israel?
    Hang on, I’m going to shock you. Israel’s enemies have shown time and time again that they don’t want reconciliation with Israel but its destruction instead.

  • JD

    I support an Israeli’s right to exist, just as much as I support a Palestinian’s right to exist. I am a voluntaryist and wish we’d get rid of these imaginary lines we use to justify murdering others over.

    I would prefer Israelis and Palestinians to stop answering evil with evil. Yes, I consider killing anyone an evil act and incompatible with the teachings of my Savior. Yes, I consider Israel’s violent response to Palestinian violence to be evil. I consider the Palestinian’s violent response to Israeli violence to be evil as well. I would prefer Israel, or the Palestinians, to break the cycle of violence. Neither side, at least among the leadership, wants peace. Netanyahu doesn’t want peace. Palestinian leadership doesn’t want peace. They both use fear and murder as a means to securing political power. Israeli leadership doesn’t want reconciliation any more than Palestinian leadership.

    What does answering evil with love and self-sacrifice mean for Israel? I don’t know. I don’t think Christ’s teachings are applicable only if the outcome is positive for us. He doesn’t tell us to “not resist an evil person” only if the outcome is positive. Answering evil with love is how His Kingdom breaks through the darkness of this world.

  • Everett Kier Jr

    WOW….military occupation and apartheid! What a biased and sad read.

  • Dennis Wilson

    Was Jesus Christ God incarnate, God manifested in human flesh? Yes or No.
    Do you consider execution of murderers, an evil act?
    Israel’s enemies say they don’t have the right to exist and seek its destruction. Israel has made no such declaration. Which position is evil in your view? Which side would you support?

  • JD

    I believe Jesus is what God looks like. I believe He is the fullest revelation of God. Jesus taught non-violence. Violence, of any kind, cannot be reconciled with anything Christ actually taught. Israeli leadership doesn’t talk about wiping their enemy off the face of the earth. Their actions, however, speak volumes. We are called to love our enemies, even those that seek to harm us. It’s, as Frederick Buechner states, the “tortured’s love for the torturer. This is God’s love. It conquers the world.” Violence is incompatible with love. Read 1 Cor 13 and tell me how violence can be reconciled with that definition of love.

    I believe both sides are engaging in evil actions. I also reject the premise that we must pick one side or the other. This is the problem. Too many Christians believe that picking a perceived “lesser evil” is a valid Christian response. I don’t support the evil acts of either side. I support both sides and think we should love both. I believe that the church shouldn’t be choosing sides, but instead should come to the middle and work on making peace. Neither side in this battle know the things that make for peace. That’s why it’s so important that the church show them. We don’t show the lost the ways that make for peace if we are choosing one side’s violence over the other.

  • Dennis Wilson

    I would like to address much of what you wrote. The problem is, you wrote a lot and you didn’t answer some of my questions.
    First, you gave me no indication that you believe that Jesus Christ was God manifest in human flesh. You could have said yes or no, like I asked, but instead gave a misleading answer. So, I ask again, was Jesus Christ God manifested in human flesh, yes or no?

  • JD

    Misleading answer? The fact that you didn’t like my answer doesn’t mean it’s misleading. Yes, I believe that Christ was God in the flesh. I believe He was fully human and fully God. I believe He is the exact representation of the very nature of God. When I want to see what God looks like, I look directly to Jesus. Jesus, being the exact representation of the nature of God, taught peace. Jesus, being the exact representation of the nature of God, taught non-violence and love of enemies.

    Now, I’m sure you will regurgitate some OT verses in an effort to rationalize violence. Any rationalization, however, will be incompatible with Christ’s teachings.

  • James Quinn

    Biased in what way? The fact that it’s a military occupation is a basic fact. One can say it’s justified, or one can say it’s wrong, but it’s still a basic, verifiable fact. One could make a better argument that it would take bias, or perhaps willful ignorance, to deny an occupation exists.

    Also, how is it not apartheid? If the author is so wrong and biased, just present a few facts to show how wonderfully and equally Israel treats Palestinians.

  • James Quinn

    If Israel has a right to defend itself, shouldn’t Palestinians? Israel literally demolishes Palestinian homes and farms, and your moral outrage is that they throw rocks at the aggressors? You have a one-sided logic that sees what Israel does as justified, but views Palestinian violence as wrong.

    Your the kind of person who, in early American history, would be supporting genocide of Native Americans because they didn’t lay down and die when invaders came and took their land.

  • JD

    It blows my mind that it seems that so many Christians are insistent on picking sides of a battle in which both sides are answering evil with evil. Forget about geopolitical borders. We are His church. His church knows no border. Let’s start looking at everyone, whether Jew or Muslim, Christian or atheist, as bearing the image of our Creator. When you see both sides as being made of divine image bearers, then it reshapes your thinking entirely. Stop looking at others and defining them by their sin. Instead, let’s look at others and see them as God does…as being of infinite worth.

    Let’s stop picking sides. Let’s start allowing the Spirit to use us so the world will see the things that make for peace. Violence does not breed peace. Let’s stop choosing the ways of this world…the ways of a world that center on an axis of violence. Let’s revolve around an axis of love and forgiveness, and show the world the beauty of what makes for peace….His unfathomable self-sacrificial love.

    BTW, Brian Zahnd deserves credit for the beautiful ‘axis’ imagery. Beauty Will Save the World is one of the best books I’ve ever read.

  • seashell

    What a great article! Putting the competing post-war domestic and foreign interests alongside Truman’s worldview gives so much more context of the situation today. Thank you! Have you written more on this subject that is available to read? You’re a Class A historian.

  • Dennis Wilson

    God commanded the death penalty for murder and God instituted government, Romans 13. And this government is obligated to execute murderers. This killing of those who murder is sanctioned and justified by God. This is not my opinion but my agreement with the word God’s word.

    You, and I, as well as nations have a right of self defense. You have been taken in by liberals who quote “Jesus said not to resist evil.” These unbelievers have taken this out of context or have mistaken the meaning of the passage, which is understandable since the Bible is largely a closed book to them. Jesus in Matthew 5:39 said- “But I say unto you,That ye resist not evil: but who soever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.” Jesus was referring to a slap, an insult and not to someone out to physically harm you.

    Israel has the right to defend its nation and its people, just as our nation does, and ourselves individually.

    Now, how can you or anyone justifiably say that they no longer support Israel?

  • JD

    Oh man, such gross misinterpretations of the Scripture. The fact that you equate “liberals” with “unbelievers” speaks volumes. Americanized Christianity is such an abomination. But, this is really the result of the Constantinian shift and the church’s embrace of the sword once they began to wield political power. When the church began acting as the chaplain for empire, they did a complete 180 on the issue of violence because it allowed them to gain/maintain political power. You see it across the American church today with their idolatry of a flag and rampant nationalism you hear spewed from the pulpit.

    I don’t support Israel. I support all those that bear the image of our Creator, regardless of which imaginary lines they reside within. I don’t support answering evil with evil. I don’t support Palestinians resorting to violence in self-defense. I don’t support Israelis resorting to violence in self-defense. Both sides claim justification, and the cycle continues. Both sides claim they are acting in self-defense, and so the cycle continues.

    There really is no point in continuing this with you. The mere fact that you equate “liberals” with “unbelievers” reveals enough about you and where you are coming from. So, I’m just going to dust my feet off and move on.

  • And this folks is a great example of how some folks will deliberately distort what Jesus taught in order to make it more palatable to their own beliefs.

  • Dennis Wilson

    I thank you for not attempting to refute me.
    God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. God never changes, His word is forever settled.
    God is the first and only true Conservative. One cannot be like Christ and not be a Conservative.
    Look up the word liberal in MANY dictionaries and you will see the words “change” and “reform” and “not conforming to tradition, or some such.”
    Liberals seek and do change who God is and the doctrines and teachings of Conservative Scripture.
    Now you know why liberals are unbelievers.

  • seashell

    Something I’ve learned: You come from a Christian (the good kind) viewpoint and I come from a secular, humanist viewpoint, yet we both end up at the same place of peace, love and human flourishing versus war, death and human diminishing.

  • JD

    Amen. He “was referring to a slap, an insult”, yet He was tortured and murdered without lifting a finger in His own defense. When someone did use violence in the defense of the innocent, Christ immediately rebuked it and told Peter that those that take up the sword will perish by the sword. Christ gave us the example. Even when faced with torture and death, we are to love and forgive. I’ve yet to understand how love and forgiveness are compatible with violence.

    The sad thing is that there is a religious forum I like posting on, and the most vehement opposition to non-violence comes from those that claim Christ. I’ve had avowed atheists flat-out tell me that if Jesus really is as I believe He is, then that’s someone they could actually believe in. Of course, those comments get drowned out by Christians attacking and mocking those views that atheists have admitted are actually attractive.

  • JD

    Wow! What would be the point in refuting you here? You are clearly coming from a position that is entirely incapable of seeing the other point of view. To do so, you’d have to be open to change, which you believe disqualifies one from being a believer. So, you will continue to cling to your unchanging Americanized Christianity, the same abomination that defended slavery, genocide, and subjugation of women and minorities, because to change is to be an unbeliever.

    Have a great day, brother.

  • Dennis Wilson

    Believers aren’t open to changing God’s word, but obeying God’s word, His commandments. If one truly loves God that one will seek to obey God, not disobey Him and certainly not “change” (the heart of liberalism) the meaning of God’s word to justify living a life of sin. Homosexuality comes to mind here.

  • Dennis Wilson

    What did I distort? Then give me the Scripture that proves your accusation.

  • The Happy Atheist

    Thank you! Tell that to the Journal of Palestine Studies, which thought I painted Israel in too good a light. Most journals and monographs on this subject are much more pointed in their criticism.

    I have to admit, I was surprised that so many historical loose ends tied right up. That pretty much never happens in historical research; things are always much more complex than I think they are before I start researching. Unfortunately, I ended up going to grad school in Washington State where I pursued a different area of historical research. I still stay caught up on the literature, though.

  • JD

    We aren’t talking about changing God’s word. You do realize that your rationalizations on violence, even in self-defense, run counter to the early church teachings on it, right? Yours is the position that cannot be reconciled with what Christ taught. The change in His teachings occurred during the time of Constantine. Prior to that, the early church leaders were widely opposed to any use of violence whatsoever. Yours is the position that is the result of changing God’s word, not ours. The use of violence comes to mind here.

    Also, you do realize that God changed His mind in the past, right?

  • Dennis Wilson

    I suspect that you are Catholic.
    The only “church” teaching I am concerned with is Scripture. You would call capital punishment “evil” which is a “change” from the teaching of Scripture.

  • The Happy Atheist

    Whoa there, cowboy. Back up a second. First, you do understand that Jesus never stood on a hill and said all these words in this order, right? All of Matthew 5 – and, I would argue, the rest of the sense unit, which includes chapters 6-10 as well – are clearly a patchwork of the “sayings” of Jesus. I put the word “sayings” in quotes because it is a well-documented Koine-era literary construct. If Jesus ever said any of these things, then he probably said them MANY times, not just once; his followers put them together decades after Jesus’ death in a document that had a wide enough circulation to be fairly well know.

    Also, though, how do you know what he meant? Why doesn’t “slap” mean “slap”? I mean, it feels really weird to be arguing the literalist side of this I must say, but nothing about the Greek indicates anything otherwise. In fact, the author of Matthew uses the same word (conjugated differently) when he describes the crowd beating Jesus in chapter 29. We don’t even have to leave chapter 5 to disprove your “insult” theory. Look at verse 38. Jesus is referring to the injunction of Exodus 21, which *LIMITS* the scope of retaliatory punishment. An Israelite could not, for example, kill a man causing the loss of a finger. It is notably, clearly interested in injuries of a physical nature. With that in mind, Israel is 1000% wrong BEFORE GOD when they demolish a village because a Palestinian shot someone.

  • JD

    Nope, not Catholic. The problem you seem to be making is taking bits and pieces of English translations out of context, then claiming that this is absolutely what it means. The early church disagreed with your English-based interpretation of the Scripture. The interpretations you seem to hold have changed (gasp, there’s that scary word) from what the earliest church taught. So, which is it? Were they wrong for the first 300 years of church history, but your English-translation based interpretation is correct? By your statement about me being a Catholic, I would assume you are some sort of Protestant. Hmmmm, how did Protestants come about? Oh yeah, change and reform. They rejected tradition and broke off from the Catholic church. I guess “change” and “reform” were all dandy then, right?

    The Scripture is not the church. Jesus is the Word, and He taught and lived non-violence. Or do you believe Isaiah was wrong about Him committing no violence? Or do you believe Paul was wrong when he said we were to be imitators of Christ?

    Let me ask you this. Are you a Calvinist?

  • The Happy Atheist

    ?
    You know who changed scripture? The people preserving it. Between the 4th and 8th centuries, the “bible” (such as it was) was copied thousands and thousands of times. Most of the time the scribes were very thorough and careful, but once it a while they made simple, human errors that significantly changed the sense of a passage. Take Romans 5:1, for instance, which reads:

    “Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we* have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
    2through whom we have obtained access* to this grace in which we stand…”

    Now, I think we all agree that this is a critical piece of scripture. I mean, it’s central the evangelical understanding of divine grace. The problem is, there are two readings that have attained equal scholarly acceptance over time. The first uses the Greek first-person plural active indicative conjugation of the verb (ἔχομεν – echomen), which means “we have.” But the second reading, which is older, employs the *subjunctive* conjugation, which is typically exhortative…it’s used to encourage an audience to undertake an activity that the speaker finds useful and necessary. The bible usually translates it with the phrase “let us [do something].”

    That’s a problem that you can’t just wave away, because it has a profound impact on the theology of grace. Do we already have it by the finished work of Christ? Or are we slowly working our way into something that we do not yet possess? You can’t have it both ways.

    So which one is right, @disqus_ZELPwYgmvc:disqus? The change occurred over a millennia ago, not by the hands of modern critique.

  • Dennis Wilson

    We have a lot of good English translations by recognized scholars that don’t differ in doctrine. What translation do you say that contradicts the teaching of these on say capital punishment?
    “The Scripture is not the Church.” Well, Christians recognize that Scripture is the word of God and from Scripture we got Christianity and its teachings and doctrines. Scripture is the only authority for Christians who are the true church. What is your authority?
    You seem to be trying to separate God from Scripture.

  • You said that “unbelievers” have taken Matthew 5 out of context, and that Jesus was only referring to someone who wanted to slap you. What’s funny, is while you blame this on atheists and unbelievers, this is the foundation of all Christianity– nonviolence and enemy love was a core identity of the early church. Not a single written dissension exists until the 4th century AD. So, you’ve just called all the early Christians “unbelievers” who took things out of context.

    Your argument that Jesus was only referring to slapping is either a deliberate distortion or the most juvenile exegesis I’ve ever seen on this passage. You’d do well to actually do some real, historical and grammatical exegesis on this– your argument demonstrates you don’t actually understand either.

    Also, your argument that we all have this “right to self defense” found in the Bible, is bunk. Sure, the OT commands baby killing and jihad, but the closest you’ll find to self defense only excuses it if you killed someone accidentally in the dark. The NT? Jesus expressly forbids it, multiple times.

  • I guess Jesus was a liberal then, because he’s famous for saying “you have heard it said, but I tell you” and then proceeding to overturn the Old Testament, such as in the case of the Lex Tallionis in Matthew 5.

  • JD

    To really get into the Word, you cannot solely rely on English translations. You must get into the original languages. A great place to look is the early church, as they were the ones closest to Christ. I don’t worship the Bible though. I worship Jesus. Jesus is the Word.

    A great example of the dangers of relying solely on the English translation is how the “rod” verses in Proverbs have been used to rationalize hitting children. If you get into the original language and grammar used, those verses aren’t even remotely close to justifying the use of corporal punishment.

  • Yup, not only does God change throughout the Bible, he at times expresses regret over his own choices, changes his mind, etc.

  • $10 says I know the answer to your last question.

  • Dennis Wilson

    The liberals were the Pharisees who had perverted God’s word. Jesus was confronted them for doing so.

  • JD

    The OT teachings Jesus said “you have heard it said, but I tell you” existed long before the Pharisees.

  • Dennis Wilson

    I am not concerned about what you view as early church teaching. I am only concerned with what God’s word teaches. Why don’t you?

  • JD

    That’s what I find odd about so many calvinists. They claim we’ve veered from original teachings because we don’t subscribe to a theological point of view that came about 1500 years after Christ.

  • JD

    God’s Word is Jesus. You are the one opposing the Word when you rationalize away Christ’s teachings.

  • Dennis Wilson

    Yes, it was an insult. Read the the full verse, not just the first few words – “But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but who soever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”

    You don’t really believe that Jesus commanded you to let someone beat you or maim you are even kill you, do you?

  • Dennis Wilson

    You are the one rationalizing. Would you allow someone to injure you or kill you without any resistance? Would you stand by and watch someone do the same to a family member without resistance?

  • JD

    You mean like He let others maim and kill Him? Yes, I believe Jesus meant we are to meet violence with love and self-sacrifice. Answering violence with violence is the way of the world. Jesus taught a different way. One that defied human logic, but was grounded in His wisdom. He understands that peace only comes through love, not violence.

    Which teaching of Christ’s to you use to justify the use of any violence? Which actual teaching are you pointing to? I’m genuinely curious, because it seems like the one time we see His disciples use violence, it was immediately rebuked with “those that live by the sword will perish by the sword”. All of His disciples, save John, died at the hands of others. Do we have any record that any of them used violence in their defense? NO! Why? Because it seems that they understand His teachings as commanding non-violence and enemy love. Violence and love are incompatible. The early church also saw this as well. They faced death and persecution, yet countless reports comment on their answering those threats with non-violence. It wasn’t until the church got into bed with the state that, all of a sudden, violence was now somehow justifiable.

    So, which of Christ’s teachings do you point to when you try to justify violence? Which of His disciples serve as an example of this?

  • JD

    I would hope to respond to such a threat with all non-violent means at my disposal. See, I’m one of those people that actually believe that God’s love is the most powerful weapon we have. It is the greatest defense against evil.

  • JD

    Oh, and you didn’t answer earlier. Are you a calvinist?

  • Jeff Preuss

    GOD NEVER CHANGES!

    Except for, y’know, the radical change from a vengeful and angry deity to a loving one who no longer wished to keep His distance, sending His Son to us in the form of Christ.

    But, yup, never changes. (I find it mystifying when self-professed Christians insist He has never changed on anything when the very essence of our Savior is a result of precisely that – a change.)

  • JD

    I lean more towards the open theist point of view, as I believe it’s the only perspective that truly allows for free will. Here’s a recent blog entry from Greg Boyd that touches on this: http://reknew.org/2015/10/5-ways-the-bible-supports-open-theism/

    But….yeah….God never changes His mind…except for when He did.

  • Dennis Wilson

    The wages of sin is death. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We are all sinners worthy of death, we are all unrighteous and stand condemned before God. No man could ever inherit eternal life on his righteousness. We have none – There is none righteous, no not one.

    God came to die for your sins and mine. He bore the penalty for our sins – The soul that sinneth shall die. By faith, in the finished work of Christ, His righteousness is imputed to the believer. We don’t have any righteousness of our own. God is not a liar. You and I would never on our own be worthy of eternal life for He has declared all mankind condemned. His justice demands death for us all. By dying in our place, His justice and righteousness is vindicated.

    Christ dying on the cross had to do deal with our sin, not violence.

  • Dennis Wilson

    Most everyone would hope to respond non violently, but what would you do if your only choice was to react with violence against someone with clear intent to harm you or your child.

    Would you let your child be murdered if your violent act would stop it?

  • Dennis Wilson

    You make the mistake of assuming grace is only taught in one verse.

  • Dennis Wilson

    I like all Christians believe many things that he believed. I don’t follow men, I follow God’s word.

  • Dennis Wilson

    So, you don’t believe that God inspired holy men of God to write His revelation to mankind?

  • Dennis Wilson

    “this is the foundation of all Christianity– nonviolence and enemy love was a core identity of the early church.”

    No, the foundation of all Christianity is that God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

  • seashell

    JPS is the loser. Seems like daylight should trump painted light, but I’m just the consumer, not the editors.

    I’m curious about one thing and footnotes on the page don’t go past 12, so I can’t check it. When Americans were 70% on the side of the Jews, was it more because of Christianity or sympathy and empathy, do you think? As a young teenager reading Anne Frank and Exodus, Christianity never crossed my mind, though I admit growing up non-theistically. But I was horrified at what had happened to them at the hands of the Germans, never mind all of history. Thanks, again!

  • seashell

    Christ dying on the cross had to do deal with our sin, not violence.

    Are you saying that violence is not a sin? Because how love between a couple of the same sex can be a sin, and violence between individuals or nations not be a sin, simply stuns me.

  • Bones

    So can Palestinians defend themselves from Israeli aggression?

  • Dennis Wilson

    That comment stuns me.

  • seashell

    That didn’t answer my question, as you like to say.

  • Bones

    Fatah is the governing authority on the West Bank.

    They recognise the State of Israel..

    Hamas is the governing authority in Gaza. They only recognise Israel within the 1967 borders.

    You obviously have no idea.

  • Bones

    “Now, how can you or anyone justifiably say that they no longer support Israel?”

    Easy. Get to know some Palestinians.

    You are aware that the Palestinian terrorists see themselves as defending against Israeli aggression which you’ve just said they have the right to do.

  • Bones

    No. Give me an account of Christians in the first century who put up armed resistance.

    There are none even when they were being martyred.

  • Bones

    “You don’t really believe that Jesus commanded you to let someone beat you or maim you are even kill you, do you?”

    What do you think happened to the Disciples and the thousands of martyrs throughout church history?

    That’s right, you’d have organised a Christian insurrection….

    Your interpretation of Matthew is wrong.

  • Bones

    I’m not surprised.

  • Dennis Wilson

    Well they suffered for they were martyred for their faith.
    You would stand by and let your child be murdered, yes or no.

  • Bones

    So to summarise, I gather real Christians support the secular gay friendly state of Israel and its discriminatory practices against Palestinians.

    False Christians don’t believe the word of God….

    Or something….

    Wonder what Palestinian Christians think of that?

    Maybe Dennis should go on a mission to the West Bank.

  • Bones

    No I wouldn’t.

    They did.

  • Dennis Wilson

    When rockets are fired by Palestinians into Israel with the intent to kill its citizens the Israel is going to protect its people. Why do you support that Israel’s enemies?

    If a another country landed a nuclear weapon on America and killed thousands would you expect President Obama to send words of love?

  • Dennis Wilson

    Then please read what I have written so you won’t stun me.

  • Bones

    And if a country’s soldiers came and forced you out of your house at gunpoint, like they did my Christian friends, and gave it to Jewish settlers, you’d be happy with that.

    Quit talking about what you have no idea about.

  • Bones

    You are being wilfully ignorant here.

    “Well, .. I doubt that. ”

    Then you are wrong. Muslim and Christians have lived together in the Holy Land for well over a thousand years. In fact, the Church in Gaza was sheltering Muslims during the Gaza offensive.

    And Gaza and West Bank are ruled by two totally different Arab entities.

    Yet again you show your ignorance.

    “Yes, actually I do. The potential of ‘joiners’ out of this 160.000 is about 1500. 1 out of 15 (and growing) to join voluntarily a dangerous, lousy paid, unpopular job can be considered as an endorsement.”

    I’ve quoted you from an Israeli Arab Christian in the army why he does it.

    He sees it as a why of ending discrimination against Arabs.

    Now why did he say that if Arab Christians aren’t discriminated?

    Israel discriminates against ALL Arabs, Muslim and Christian.

    There’s plenty on this but you are like holocaust deniers and supporters of apartheid.

    Btw Christians in Lebanon are far more anti-Israel than anti-Hezbollah. They haven’t forgotten Israel’s actions in the Lebanese War.

    ‘They Accept Us as We Are;’ Christians Join Forces With Muslim Group Hezbollah to Fight ISIS in Lebanon

    http://www.mintpressnews.com/they-accept-us-as-we-are-christians-join-forces-with-muslim-group-hezbollah-to-fight-isis-in-lebanon/210088/

    You don’t have a clue.

  • Dennis Wilson

    That’s your “talking” not mine.

  • Bones

    “doesn’t constitutes persecution of Christians by the state of Israel.”

    Before you make more ignorant comments on how ARABS -Christian or Muslim – are not discriminated by Israel against read this.

    Rula Jebreal: How I’m Treated as a Minority in Israel

    My mother, Zakia, was so proud that my sister and I spoke better Hebrew than Arabic. Osman, my father, believed that by achieving the highest levels of education, we would one day be treated as equal in our country, Israel. He sincerely believed that Palestinians capable of articulating their narrative would win the hearts and minds of Israeli Jews.

    My parents believed in the promise of a democracy that transcends ethnicity. I still retain that dream, but it is tested every time I go home. I am a citizen of Israel, married to an American Jew, yet I am not welcome in Israel. For I am Palestinian.

    During a recent visit, my husband breezed through security at Ben-Gurion airport, but our teenage daughter and I — who both have dual citizenship of Israel and Italy — were strip-searched. I’m inured to the procedure: I have to endure it almost every time I enter and leave the country. But our daughter, age 17, sobbed with chagrin. “This place breeds hate everywhere!” she cried.

    On the same trip, I attempted to renew her Israeli passport. “She is not Jewish,” an official told me, “and therefore we are not sure she is entitled to citizenship.”

    For Israeli Palestinians — and we make up 20 percent of the population — these are ordinary humiliations. But I wonder what my parents, both now dead, would have made of the graffiti that recently appeared on the walls of our family home in Haifa, a mixed city in the north of Israel.

    “Death to Arabs,” it read.

    During the recent war between Israel and Hamas in the Gaza Strip, my cousin was walking on the beach near her home, also in Haifa. She overheard a group of Israeli sunbathers casually discussing how the Israeli Army should deal with the residents of Gaza — “Just kill them all,” she heard one say.

    “I’ve never felt so scared in my 32 years,” she told me. “I don’t want them to know I’m Palestinian.”

    Israel is increasingly becoming a project of ethno-religious purity and exclusion. Religious Zionist and ultra-Orthodox parties occupy 30 of the 120 seats in the Knesset, and the coalition government includes members of Jewish Home, a religious Zionist party, and Yisrael Beiteinu, a right-wing nationalist party. Central to their politics is a program of discriminatory legislation, designed to curtail the civil rights of Palestinian Israeli citizens.

    Chief among the more than 50 discriminatory Israeli laws documented by Adalah, the Haifa-based Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, is the Law of Return, which automatically guarantees Israeli citizenship for every Jew regardless of birthplace. Often, they are shepherded into settlements in the West Bank (illegal under international law), where they receive government benefits. Palestinian Israeli citizens, meanwhile, are subject to a ban on family reunification: If they marry a fellow Palestinian from the West Bank or Gaza, they are prohibited from living in Israel under the Citizenship and Entry Into Israel Law.

    In September, Israel’s Supreme Court dismissed a petition challenging the Admissions Committees Law, which allows communities to reject housing applicants based on “cultural and social suitability” — a legal pretext to deny residency to non-Jews. In practice, even before the law was passed, it was virtually impossible for a Palestinian to buy or rent a home in any majority-Jewish city.

    Further ethnic separation is maintained by the education system. Aside from a few mixed schools, most educational institutions in Israel are divided into Arab and Jewish ones. According to Nurit Peled-Elhanan, a Hebrew University professor of sociology who has produced the most comprehensive survey of Israeli public school curriculums, not one positive reference to Palestinians exists in Israeli high school textbooks. Palestinians are described as either “Arab farmers with no nationality” or fearsome “terrorists,” as Professor Peled-Elhanan documented in her book “Palestine in Israeli School Books: Ideology and Propaganda in Education.”

    Israel’s system of segregation has led to a situation where, according to a recent poll, 42 percent of Jews say they have never met a Palestinian.

    Historically, ultra-Orthodox Jews did not serve in the armed forces. Today, they do — and serve in every capacity, including in the most important elite Israeli army units, such as the Sayeret Matkal special forces and Unit 8200, whose responsibilities include gathering intelligence on any Palestinian they deem a “security threat.”

    Unlike every former head of Shin Bet, Israel’s equivalent of the F.B.I., Yoram Cohen, who today heads the agency, is a religious Jew. That change is typical of Israeli society. The greater integration of ultra-Orthodox Jews clearly offers benefits to Jewish Israelis, but for Palestinian Israeli citizens, it has meant a new, religiously inspired racism, on top of the old secular discrimination.

    National leaders proudly promote hate policies. Israel’s foreign minister and the leader of the secular nationalist Yisrael Beiteinu party, Avigdor Lieberman, has championed a call to boycott the businesses of Palestinian citizens of Israel and, ominously, has even sought to make the “transfer” of Palestinians legal. Secretary of State John Kerry has met with Mr. Lieberman — apparently without challenging him on such reprehensible views.

    This is the atmosphere in which Israel’s Palestinians live. And there is no redress available to us elsewhere. Our rights and welfare certainly cannot be represented by the Palestinian Authority, whose jurisdiction is limited to partial control of the population of the West Bank. Its president, Mahmoud Abbas, cannot negotiate for us because we are Israeli citizens. Israel, however, prefers not to think of us as such, and thus resorts to all manner of petty aggressions to prove it, like trying to deny my daughter a new passport.

    Israel is quick to point out efforts to delegitimize the Jewish state. Yet what truly undermines Israel’s international standing is not its critics, but Israel’s abysmal treatment of its own citizens who are Palestinian. It is little different than other countries that have systematically discriminated against and segregated a whole class of its people based on race, religion and ethnicity.

    While Israel (like the United States) claims to abhor racism and human rights violations elsewhere, the country’s political leadership is actively enacting laws that ensure a pervasive institutionalized system of discrimination. What Israel needs, conversely, is a civil rights movement.

    Rula Jebreal is a journalist, foreign policy analyst and author.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/opinion/rula-jebreal-minority-life-in-israel.html?ref=international&_r=1

  • Bones

    Dude, you haven’t got a clue as to what is happening in the West Bank and Jewish settlements.

    Your ignorance is astounding.

  • Bones

    Your understanding of scripture is at best…….poor.

  • Bones

    No, you follow your own interpretation which is quite addled….

  • Bones

    So you can’t respond to Ben’s assertion.

    No of course you can’t, better change topic

  • seashell

    You wrote: If one truly loves God that one will seek to obey God, not disobey Him and certainly not “change” (the heart of liberalism) the meaning of God’s word to justify living a life of sin. Homosexuality comes to mind here.

    Short: homosexuality is a sin.

    You wrote: Christ dying on the cross had to do deal with our sin, not violence.

    Short: Violence is not a sin, since Christ didn’t die on the cross for it.

    All together: Love between a couple of the same sex is a sin, and violence between individuals or nations is not a sin.

  • Dennis Wilson

    If you think that God is going to let Israel be destroyed by its enemies then you are abysmally ignorant of Scripture. If you think Israel is going to let its enemies shoot rockets at its citizens then you are abysmally ignorant of reality.

    BTW France is now going after terrorists as it should. Even under President Obama we have gone after terrorists and killed them as well. And you don’t support Israel, France and America because…

  • Bones

    Christians. Still financing oppression. The more things change, the more things stay the same.

    US Christian charities bankroll Israeli settlements
    Christian groups have poured millions of dollars into Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/08/christian-charities-bankroll-israeli-settlements-150824105924531.html

  • Dennis Wilson

    You don’t have any idea what sin is and you don’t have any idea what God says about homosexuality do you?
    So, is it your position that France is sinning right now in killing terrorists and that President Obama has a well for killing terrorists?

  • Dennis Wilson

    I have been responding to many assertion for quite some time. You have not been paying attention.

  • Bones

    Like I said you have no idea what is happening in the West Bank and Jewish settlements….

    They need you over there to defend Christians from Zionists with your M-16.

    Let’s enlighten you…(wishful thinking I know)

    Church Burning and Jewish Settlers in Israel

    Israel’s unfair treatment of Christians continues. At the end of June, Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF) arrested Greek Orthodox Bishop Atallah Hanna during his peaceful participation in a march protesting the illegal seizure and subsequent sale of Beit al-Baraka hospital, which is part of al-Baraka church, north of Hebron.

    A few days ago Palestine News Network reported:

    A delegation from the Presbyterian church as well as international and Israeli activists participated in the march against the sale of Beit al-Baraka, a hospital which provided medical services to Palestinians as part of al-Baraka church services. The sale is illegal under international and canonical law. …

    Israeli newspaper Haaretz last month leaked details of the seizure of Beit al-Baraka hospital by a Jewish billionaire, the sale having been allegedly made through a fake Norwegian real estate company. Days after publication of this illegal seizure, the sale process halted, however Israeli Defense Minister, Moshe Ya’alon, subsequently decided that there was no legal impediment to the sale of the building.

    The previous week saw one of the most serious episodes of violence in recent memory against Christians in Israel. Five teams of firefighters were necessary to put out the flames which at dawn woke up Tabgha, the area on the shores of the Sea of Galilee, in northern Israel, where Jesus fed the 5,000 with the miracle of the multiplication of the loaves and fishes (Mark 6:30–46) and where Jesus appeared for the fourth time after his resurrection following his Crucifixion (John 21:1–24).

    In the middle of the night, a fire broke out at the Church of the Multiplication of the Loaves and Fish, built on the site of the miracle, “causing extensive damage to the inside and outside of the building, said Israel police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld.” A monk and a church volunteer were hospitalised from smoke inhalation.

    A spokesman for the fire brigade said that the blaze broke out in several places inside the limestone church, evidence that it was started deliberately.

    Hebrew graffiti had been spray-painted in red on a wall outside the church, reading “False gods will be destroyed,” a passage from the Aleinu Leshabeach, a prayer recited by practising Jews at the end of each of the three daily services, suggesting that Jewish zealots were responsible.

    So much for the much-vaunted “Judaeo-Christian tradition.” These Israeli Jews didn’t get the memo.

    Police briefly detained 16 young Jewish settlers, all religious Jewish seminary students visiting the Sea of Galilee area from settlements in the Israeli-occupied West Bank. They were freed within hours. Police spokeswoman Luba Samri said that 10 of those detained were from Yitzhar, which is known as a bastion of extremists and where some residents have been involved in previous hate crimes.

    The Church of the Multiplication of the Loaves and Fish is one of the Holy Land’s most famous Catholic churches and one of the places most visited by pilgrims to the Holy Land, with more than 5,000 people visiting it daily. The church had to be closed for a few days due to the fire damage.

    Nahum Weisfish, a Jerusalem rabbi, said the site might have been targeted because it housed a synagogue some 2,000 years ago.

    The site is owned by the German Roman Catholic Church, and Berlin’s envoy to Israel Andreas Michaelis said he was “shocked” by the incident, adding: “Religious institutions must be as well protected in Israel as they are in Germany and Europe.”

    http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2015/07/church-burning-and-jewish-settlers-in-israel/

  • Bones

    No you can’t reply to the fact that Jesus overturned the Torah and then you go on some other tangent.

    Hence why we are writing about scriptural interpretation and not Israeli persecution of Palestinian Christians who you think should defend themselves….

  • Bones

    Self defence is a subjective justification.

    As horrific as it is, those terrorists could well say they are acting in self defence as France just started bombing Syria.

    I would say you have no idea what sin is…

  • seashell

    France is not under discussion here and I’m very sure the President doesn’t drop people into wells for any purpose.

    Bur your position is now clear. Sin is mostly about sex and violence is A-OK in the sin department.

    Who TEACHES this shit?

  • Bones

    Dennis does because God told him…

    Interestingly he’s very similar to fundamentalist Islam.

  • nabil89

    this is funny. There were school, universities, villages, cities, and hospitals in Palestine prior to 1948 when the zionist militias entered. Till this day there are vast places in every country which are empty. Lebanon, my country, has about 6 million people (Lebanese and refugees) living in only 10,500 square km, yet you can walk for many km in the mountains and not see a living soul :)

  • nabil89

    Bernhard, thank you for the linguistics lesson in the root of the word Palestine.
    Now, coming back to my question, which you never answered:
    There were people living in Palestine (call them Arabs, Palestinians, aliens, whatever makes you happy) before 1948. In 1948, another people group came and took their place (mainly zionist jews). My evidence, my family went through this.
    Now, did the second people group give the inhabitants any reimbursement for the theft? No. Till this day hundreds of thousands of Palestinians live in camps in Lebanon and other countries. Till this day israel keeps adding more illegal settlements and destroying palestinian houses (check Jewish Voice for Peace for Jewish sources, so you won’t say I am a lying Arab – also see recent European labeling measures – or just go on google).
    So, my friend, the houses and fields of people were stolen from them.
    Your logic says that these lands belong to the Jews. Fine, admit that, and then admit that the Jews took them back from the Palestinians in 1948. Do not go around spreading lies that Palestine was empty or what-not.
    What will it take for you to see the oppression which happened and is happening every day?

  • nabil89

    bernhard we are talking about things which happened in 1948 and not 135 AD.
    All country names were named by someone in history. So what if the Roman empire named the land Palestine in 135 AD. How does excuse the theft of land which happened in 1948 (almost 2000 years later)?

  • Bernhard Henry Fynn

    before the first world war, the Ottomans owned or controlled palestine, before that it waned back and forth and before that, the Romans occupied it and at no time was any arab people called palestinians as every one there was a palestinian, so these modern people have NO CLAIM to the name or the land.

    Israel:

    Origins of the Name “Palestine”

    Pre-State Israel: Table of Contents | Origins of the Palestinians | Jewish Claim to Israel

    Though the definite origins of
    the word “Palestine” have been debated for years and are still not known
    for sure, the name is believed to be derived from the Egyptian and Hebrew word peleshet. Roughly
    translated to mean “rolling” or “migratory,” the term was used to
    describe the inhabitants of the land to the northeast of Egypt
    – the Philistines. The Philistines were an Aegean people – more closely
    related to the Greeks and with no connection ethnically, linguisticly
    or historically with Arabia – who conquered in the 12th Century BCE the
    Mediterranean coastal plain that is now Israel and Gaza.

    A derivitave of the name
    “Palestine” first appears in Greek literature in the 5th Century BCE
    when the historian Herodotus called the area “Palaistinē” (Greek – Παλαιστίνη). In the 2nd
    century CE, the Romans crushed the revolt of Shimon
    Bar Kokhba (132 CE), during which Jerusalem and Judea were regained and the area of Judea was renamed Palaestina in an attempt to
    minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel.

    Under the Ottoman Empire (1517-1917), the term Palestine was used as a general term to describe the land south of Syria;
    it was not an official designation. In fact, many Ottomans and Arabs
    who lived in Palestine during this time period referred to the area as
    “Southern Syria” and not as “Palestine.”

    After World War I, the name “Palestine” was applied to the territory that was placed under British Mandate; this area included not only present-day Israel but also present-day Jordan.

    Leading up to Israel’s independence
    in 1948, it was common for the international press to label Jews, not
    Arabs, living in the mandate as Palestinians. It was not until years
    after Israeli independence that the Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip
    were called Palestinians. In fact, Arabs cannot even correctly
    pronounce the word Palestine in their native tongue, referring to area
    rather as“Filastin.”

    The word Palestine or Filastin does not appear in the Koran. The term peleshet appears in the Jewish Tanakh no fewer than 250 times.

    Though the definite origins of
    the word “Palestine” have been debated for years and are still not known
    for sure, the name is believed to be derived from the Egyptian and Hebrew word peleshet. Roughly
    translated to mean “rolling” or “migratory,” the term was used to
    describe the inhabitants of the land to the northeast of Egypt
    – the Philistines. The Philistines were an Aegean people – more closely
    related to the Greeks and with no connection ethnically, linguisticly
    or historically with Arabia – who conquered in the 12th Century BCE the
    Mediterranean coastal plain that is now Israel and Gaza.

    A derivitave of the name
    “Palestine” first appears in Greek literature in the 5th Century BCE
    when the historian Herodotus called the area “Palaistinē” (Greek – Παλαιστίνη). In the 2nd
    century CE, the Romans crushed the revolt of Shimon
    Bar Kokhba (132 CE), during which Jerusalem and Judea were regained and the area of Judea was renamed Palaestina in an attempt to
    minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel.

    Under the Ottoman Empire (1517-1917), the term Palestine was used as a general term to describe the land south of Syria;
    it was not an official designation. In fact, many Ottomans and Arabs
    who lived in Palestine during this time period referred to the area as
    “Southern Syria” and not as “Palestine.”

    After World War I, the name “Palestine” was applied to the territory that was placed under British Mandate; this area included not only present-day Israel but also present-day Jordan.

    Leading up to Israel’s independence
    in 1948, it was common for the international press to label Jews, not
    Arabs, living in the mandate as Palestinians. It was not until years
    after Israeli independence that the Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip
    were called Palestinians. In fact, Arabs cannot even correctly
    pronounce the word Palestine in their native tongue, referring to area
    rather as“Filastin.”

    The word Palestine or Filastin does not appear in the Koran. The term peleshet appears in the Jewish Tanakh no fewer than 250 times.

  • Bones

    “What will it take for you to see the oppression which happened and is happening every day?”

    God or a miracle.

  • Bones

    “It was not until years after Israeli independence that the Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip were called Palestinians. ”

    Hey hang on.

    You’ve been telling us everyone born in Palestine are Palestinians.

    Make your mind up.

    Good to see you’ve put away the mantra that the Romans invented Palestine in 132CE.

    Keep posting those sources which refute your own argument.

  • Bones

    Here’s a nice long reference which basically refutes everything you say about Palestine.

    PEOPLE OF PALESTINE RECOGNIZED AS AN INDEPENDENT NATION

    Paragraph 4 of Article XXII of the League of Nations Covenant recognized the people of Palestine as a “provisionally independent nation.” It stated:

    Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as an independent nation can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory.

    Palestine was placed under Class A Mandate. Professor Quincy Wright described communities under Class A mandates as being very close to sovereignty.(4) The Earl of Birkenhead described territories under Class A mandates as “protected states.”(5) He stated: “The status of Palestine and Syria resembles very closely that of states under suzerainty.”(6)

    PALESTINE UNDER THE BRITISH MANDATE

    The boundaries of Palestine under the British Mandate were defined in an agreement between Great Britain and France. When Palestine was placed under the British Mandate in 1923, the area and topography of Palestine were defined as follows:

    The total land area of Palestine is estimated at 26,320 square kms., or 10, 162 square miles. In addition there is an inland water area of 704 square kms. or 272 square miles, comprising Lake Huleh, Lake Tiberias and one half of the Dead Sea. The total area of the country is thus 27,024 square kms. or 10,434 square miles.

    Geographically, the country may be divided into seven regions:

    (a) The maritime plain, extending north from the Egyptian frontier and terminating at Mount Carmel, just south of Haifa. The northern section of this plain is often called the Plain of Sharon.

    (b) The coastal plain of Acre extending from Carmel north to the promontory of Ras en Naqura.

    (c) A broad plain running southeast from Haifa to the Jordan Valley. The western portion of this plain is the Plain of Esdraelon. The eastern section is known as the Valley Jezreel.

    (d) The central range comprising the hills of Judaea and Samaria. The southeastern portion of the Judean hills, falling away to the Dead Sea, is described as the Wilderness of Judaea. The highest points in the Judean and Samaria hills respectively are Tell Asur (1,016 m.; 3,333 ft.) and Mount Ebal(940 m.; 3,084 ft.).

    (e) The hills of Galilee, comprising the whole of the north of Palestine except the narrow plain of Acre and the Jordan valley. The highest point is on the Jebel Jarmak (1,208 m.; 3,963 ft.), the highest mountain in Palestine. In the same area is the Jebel Adathir (1,006 m.; 3,301 ft.).

    (f) The Jordan Valley, extending from the Syrian frontier to the Dead Sea. The northernmost section is often considered separately as the Huleh basin.

    (g) The district of Beersheba, an immense triangle with its apex at the gulf of Aqaba which contains nearly half the land of Palestine (approximately 12,576 square krns.).

    Lake Huleh, with an area of 14 square krns., is 70 m. (230 ft.) above mean sea level; Lake Tiberias, with an area of 165 square krns., is 209 m. (686 ft.) below mean sea level: the Dead Sea, with a total area of 1,050 square krns., is 392 m. (1,286 ft.) below mean sea level. The length of the Dead Sea is 82 kms. and its breadth 17 krns.; its maximum depth is 399 m. (1,3 10 ft.); it has no outlet, its surplus being carried off by evaporation.

    The total length of the River Jordan from its source near Banias in the extreme northeasterly tip of Palestine to the Dead Sea is 252 kms. (157 miles): North of Lake Huleh, 14 krns; through Lake Huleh, 5 krns.; from Lake Huleh to Lake Tiberias 18 krns.; in the course of which it drops 279 m. (915 ft.); through Lake Tiberias 21 kms., and from Lake Tiberias to the Dead Sea, 194 kms. The Yarmuk, which enters the Jordan near Jisr el Majarni’, a few kilometres south of Lake Tiberias, is 40 kms. long, of which only 17 kms. are in Palestine. The Qishon (otherwise Muqatta) which enters the Bay of Acre a short distance east of Haifa is 13 kms. long. The Auja (otherwise Yarkon), which enters the Mediter- ranean at Tel Aviv, is 26 kms. long.

    Administratively, the country is divided into six districts, which in turn are divided into sixteen sub-districts. Their land areas are (in square Kms):DistrictSq.Kms. Headqtrs.SubdistrictsSq.Kms.Gaza13,689 GazaGaza1, 113Beersheba12,576Lydda1,206 JaffaJaffa336Ramle370Jerusalem4,334 JerusalemJerusalem1,571Hebron2,076Ramallah687Samaria3,266 NablusNablus1,637Jenin839Tulkarm790Haifa1,021 HaifaHaifa1,021Galilee2,804 NazarethNazareth499Acre810Beisan361Safad695Tiberias439

    Of the total land area, urban areas account for 147 square krns.; built on areas for 79 square krns.; and roads, railways, rivers and lakes for 136 square kms. The Huleh concession area (in the Safad sub-district) is approximately 57 square kms. Over 10,000 square kms. in the Beersheba district are classified as uncultivable.(7)

    THE POPULATION OF PALESTINE

    In 1914 the population of Palestine was estimated to be 689,546: 634, 133 Muslim and Christian Arabs; 55,413 Jews. The Government of Palestine held the first census in Palestine in 1922. The Report and General Abstracts of the Census of 1922 taken on the 23rd of October, 1922, gave estimates of the population for 1920 and 192 1 and the result of the census of 1922 as follows:

    CensusReligions192019211922 Muslims521,403585,271590,890Jews66,57481,26383,794Christians77,80188,04973,024Others7,4157,2139,474TOTAL673, 193761,796757, 182

    In 1947 the Government of Palestine submitted an estimate of the population of Palestine in 1946 to the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine. It stated on page 11 of the Supplement to the Survey of Palestine that at the end of 1946 the estimated population of Palestine was as follows:

    Settled Population Total Population Arabs (Muslims & Christians) 1,203,000 1,269,000Jews 608,000 608,000Others 35,000 35,000 TOTAL 1,846,000 1,912,000

    The Palestine Government did not hold a census in Palestine after 1931. Taking the population figures for the year 1931 as a base, we estimated what the population in every town and village in Palestine would have been in 1948 according to the percentage of the increase of the population calculated by the Government of Palestine in 1931 to be 30.7 1 per thousand.

    The estimates of the population for 1948 were as follows:By District
    and
    Sub-District1931
    Total Population1931
    Arab Pop.1948
    Arab Pop. Southern District Gaza Sub-District94,63494,213157,555Beersheba Sub-District51, 11151,09485,446Jaffa Sub-District145,50275,713126,617Ramle Sub-District70,57962.083103.823Total Southern District361,826283, 103473,441 Jerusalem District Hebron Sub-District67,63167,496112,875Bethlehem Sub-District23,72523,68339,606Jerusalem Sub-District132,66 178, 123130,647<Jericho Sub-District3,4833,2405,418Ramallah Sub-District39.06239.06165,323Total Jerusalem District266.562211,603353,869 Northern District Tulkann Sub-District46,32845,66276,362Nablus Sub-District68,70668,696114,882Jenin Sub-District41,4114 1,40769,246Nazareth Sub-District28,59225,42042,510Beisan Sub-District15, 12313, 17322,030Tiberias Sub-District26,97519, 19032,092Haifa Sub-District95,47272, 105120,583Acre Sub-District45, 14244,84674,997Safad Sub-District39,71336.03560,262Total Northern District407,462366,534612,964 TOTAL PALESTINE1,035,850861,2401,440,274

    An estimate of the Jewish population in Palestine in 1945 was as follows(8):Palestine citizens247,000Persons eligible for naturalization158,000Persons not eligible for naturalization27,2000Illegal immigrants121,,300Total553,500

    According to Israeli statistics published in 1983, the number of Jews in Palestine in 1948 was 716,000, of whom 253,700 were born in Plaestine and 463,000 born outside Palestine(9). therefore, the Jews in Palestine in 1948 were as follows: 253,700 born in Palestine; 247,000 naturalized citizens. The total number of Jews who were citizens in Palestine either by birth or naturalization was 500,700;

    This means that the population of Palestine in 1948 was composed of 1,440,000 Christian and Muslim Arabs who were indigenous Palestinian citizens; 253,700 Jews who were indigenous citizens; 247,000 naturalized Jewish immigrants; and 216,000 Jews who were illegal immigrants.

    The Ad Hoc Committee on the Palestine Question in the United Nations appointed two subcommittees. Subcommittee 2 stated in its report to the United Nations General Assembly(10):

    It is also interesting to examine the distribution of Arab and Jewish populations in the proposed Jewish State according to the administrative subdivisions shown in appendix 2. Ten sub-districts, in whole or in part, are incorporated in the proposed Jewish State. In nineof these sub-districts, the Arabs have a clear majority over the Jews. Only in one sub-district, namely, Jaffa, have the Jews a majority over the Arabs. This is due to the heavy concentration of Jews in the urban area of Tel Aviv.

    This is further reinforced by statistics furnished to the Subcommittee by the United Kingdom representative, showing the percentage of Arabs and Jews in the populations of the various sub-districts of Palestine.(11) The statistics are reproduced below:

    Percentage of total

    Percentage of total populationSub-DistrictArabs & OthersJews Safad8713Acre964Tiberias6733Beisan7030Nazareth8416Haifa5347Jenin100-Nablus100-Tulkarm8317Ramallah100-Jerusalem6238Hebron99Less than 1Jaffa2971Ramle7822Gaza982Beersheba99Less than 1

    THE GOVERNMENT OF PALESTINE

    The organic law establishing the constitution of Palestine is the Palestine Orders in Council 1922-1940 made in pur- suance of powers conferred by the Foreign Jurisdiction Act, 1890, of the United Kingdom and other powers enabling His Majesty in that behalf. The initial Order-in-Council of 1922 came into force on the 1 st September, 1922. The Order-in- Council entrusts the administration of the country to a High Commissioner. The system of Government is as prescribed by these Orders which make provisions regarding, inter alia, the powers and responsibilities of the High Commissioner, the Executive, the Legislative and Judicial system, the safeguarding of the civil rights of citizens and foreigners and the physical boundaries of Palestine.(12)

    The highest officer of the Administration was the High Commissioner who was appointed by the King of England. The High Commissioner reported to the Secretary of State for the Colonies of the United Kingdom who was responsible to the British House of Commons. The High Commissioner was assisted by an executive council and by an advisory council. Members of both councils were British officials.

    In 1947, the members of the Executive Council and the Advisory Council were composed as follows(13):

    EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

    President
    His Excellency The High Commissioner

    Members
    Sir Henry Love11 Goldsworthy Gurney, C.M.G., Chief Secretary
    Leslie Bertram Gibson, K.C., Attorney General
    Duncan George Stewart, Financial Secretary
    James Huey Hamill Pollock, C.M.G., O.B.E., District Commissioner, JerusalemDistrict
    Kenneth Gordon Lindsay, O.B.E., Civil Service Commissioner
    John Bellasis Pruen, Clerk to the Executive Council

    ADVISORY COUNCIL

    President
    His Excellency The High Commissioner
    Members
    Chief Secretary
    Attorney-General
    Financial Secretary
    Civil Service Commissioner
    Inspector-General of Police
    Director of Medical Services
    Director of Public Works
    Director of Education
    Director of Agriculture and Fisheries
    Director of Customs and Excise
    General Manager, Railways
    District Commissioner, Jerusalem District
    District Commissioner, Haifa District
    District Commissioner, Galilee District
    District Commissioner, Lydda District
    District Commissioner, Samaria District
    District Commissioner, Gaza District
    Commissioner for Commerce and Industry
    Postmaster General
    Director of Land Settlement
    Director, Department of Labour
    Director of Social Welfare
    John Bellasis Pruen, Clerk to the Advisory Council

    The Chief Secretary was the principal executive officer of the government. Through his office, coordination of the manifold activities of the government was effected. He reported to the High Commissioner.

    The functions of the Government were organized on a departmental basis. The departments were headed by direc- tors who were British, as were many of their assistants. Some were Arabs and Jews. The departments were as follows:

    Department of the Administrative General, Agriculture and Fisheries, Antiquities, Audit, Broadcasting, Civil Aviation, Commerce and Industry, Cooperative Societies, Customs and Excise, District Administration, Education, Forests, Health, Immigration, Income Tax, Irrigation Services, Judi- cial, Labour, Land Registration, Land Settlement, Police, Ports, Posts and Telegraphs, Press Censorship, Printing and Stationery, Prisons, Public Information, Public Works, Railways, Social Welfare, Statistics, Surveys, Town Planning, Veterinary Services.

    The country was divided into six districts and sixteen subdistricts. The chief government officer for each district was the district commissioner, and for each subdistrict the assistant district commissioner was assisted by district officers.

    The following table shows the number of British, Arab, and Jewish high officers in the governmental departments. The total was as follows: 556 British, 309 Arabs and 177 Jews.(14)DepartmentBritishArabsJewsAdministrative653734Agriculture & Fisheries1056Antiquities524Audit722Broadcasting555Commerce & Industry3-1Cooperative Societies2-2Customs & Excise76-District Administration423014Education34510Forests5-1Health556524Income Tax464Judicial133613Labour8–Land Registration34-Land Settlement & Irrigation1474Legal943Migration413Muslim Religious Courts-20-Officers Seconded from Palestine to Transjordan12- Police105134Posts & Telegraphs2024Prisons10–Public Works20514Railways4712Secretariat2653Public Information Office4–Government Printing3–Civil Aviation8-5Social Welfare711Supreme Muslim Council-4 Surveys4-3Town Planning2–Veterinary Services715Controller of Foreign Exchange1723TOTAL556309177

    The total number of government officials was 44,688 persons, of whom 4,314 were British, 30, 178 Arabs, 9,276 Jews, and 920 others. The following is a summary of a table published by the Government of Palestine in 1947(15):

    The Government of Palestine is the largest employer in the country, followed closely by the Military Authorities. Government and the Military Authorities employ together something in the region of 80,000 persons.

    The following table, showing the position in December, 1945, the last date for which detailed figures are available, sets out the main categories of persons employed by Government and their aggregate earnings:

    GOVERNMENT EMPLOYMENT – GENERAL SUMMARY SHOWING THE NUMBER OF PERSONS EMPLOYED IN DECEMBER, 1945, BY COMMUNITYType of EmployeesNo. of ArabsNo. of JewsNo. of BritishAdministrative, clerical and technical13,0364,575830% of total(68.3)(23.9)(4.4) Police Force, other ranks6,7043,9213,484% of total(47.5)(27.8)(24.7) Casual labour10,438780-% of total(90.8)(6.8)-TOTAL30, 1789,2764,314% of total(67.5)(20.7)(9.7)

    Arab employees constituted 67.5 percent of all employees and received 58.4 percent of total emoluments. Jews comprised 20.7 percent of total, but received 23.8 percent of emoluments. British personnel comprised 9.7 percent of total and received 15.6 percent of total emoluments.

    http://www.mefacts.com/cached.asp?x_id=11452

  • Michiel de Jong

    Well,.. to take your comparison with native Americans a step further. If they start stabbing random people in the street,… firing rockets from the land to American cities, exploding themselves in busses, etc… I expect the American government to take action. If necessary with the use of force.
    There is however no moral equivalence between the violence of the imagined native Americans and the use of force of the American Government in that case. The first constitutes (attempted) murder the later protection of citizens.
    The situation is quite comparable.

  • Michiel de Jong

    There are things “a matter of perspective”, but the example you gave is not one of them. Your ‘perspective’ is not a perspective but a distortion of reality.
    The distortion is the assumption of some kind of moral equivalence between the two different types of violence.
    “If the Palestinians stop using violence the war will be over, if the Israeli stop using force Israel will be over.”
    It’s quite simple. The aim of Israeli is to live in peace and create a prosperous place. The aim of the Palestinians is to push them into the sea. The question who is the prime responsible for the on-going wars, is not that difficult.
    And the settlement policies of Israel are not helpful either…

  • Michiel de Jong

    Sure,.. the most effective way is to stop firing rockets,.. stop random stabbings, .. stop suicide attacks.. You can be sure the Israelis prefer to mind their own business in stead of spending billions on the defends budget.
    By the way,… it’s difficult to portrait the Palestinians violence as defence, as long as their goal is to finish the state of Israel by al means…. sounds offensive to me..

  • Ian Nairn

    Considering that Arabs have been massacring Jews in those cities for a long time, It is hardly surprising hardly any Jews live in either Hebron or Nazareth, because they kept being killed. Funny how you would never mention the fact that the Muslims put up a sign in front of a Church stating they shouldn’t proclaim Christ as saviour. BTW, isn’t if funny that at the partition Jerusalem was 2/3rds Jewish and yet via illegal colonisation by the British, who were supposed to hand over the Palestine mandate as a homeland for the Jews, according to the Balfour declaration, yet illegally gave over 2/3rds of the Mandate to the Hashemites, which if not for WW2, would have been contested by other nations. The fact of the matter is the the British did their best to stymie the Jews and did nothing to prevent Arab slaughter of Jews. Pretty much how the West i not bowing down to the Arab world when it does much violence.

  • Michiel de Jong

    Concerning the use of force and violence… you don’t seem able to grasp the structure of the relationship between the state and its inhabitants as well as the concept of a state monopoly on the use force in a civil society.
    You should read the Bible on these issues. Your justification of the use of violence by individuals reflects more the approach of the Quran on this subject. That is the reason for the high rates of (more or less) failed states among Muslim countries, including a couple of neighbours of Israel.

  • Ian Nairn

    You can look at all the newspaper articles in the Google news archive. Each one is given a reference to, so you can find them should you choose to look.

    But if you are going to recite the numbers from Hamas, then you are doing a poor job. Apparently adults can qualify as 13 year odl civilians.
    http://information.jokpeme.com/2015/07/amnestys-true-colors-revealed-with-fake.html

  • Ian Nairn

    I showed that the report from ABC was journalistic nonsense and yet you refuse to ignore the evidence. The act of the matter is that as anew nation Israel was attacke by the Arabs and it is always because of Arab violence that these sorts of things happen. Hopefully this will go to the 15th May 1948 shows that it was the Arabs who started the conflict, not Israel. Yet in spte of all the Arab incitement, Israel still survives today and it will survive.
    https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=Hx6RvaqUy9IC&dat=19480515&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

    If you look at official reports now, the inverse apparently happened. I just don’t why you would trust known liars?

  • Bones

    “The aim of Israeli is to live in peace and create a prosperous place.”

    No. The Likud Party which is the governing party of Israel and its nationalist and right wing coalition, have mandated that Israel has the right to establish settlements on Palestinian land in contravention of international law.

    Once again, you haven’t a clue.

  • Bones

    Fatah recognises the state of Israel. Even Hamas recognises the state of Israel in its 1967 borders, so who is trying to destroy Israel?

    Certainly not the West Bank.

    Now the issue of course is illegal settlements which enjoy protection and support from the Israeli government.

    And Israel of course which does not recognise Palestinian ownership and evicts people as it sees fit.

    You really are appalling. My Palestinian friends were forced out of their house at gunpoint by the IDF to give to Jewish settlers and you sit and condone that typre of behaviour and leave all the blame with the Palestininas.

    Its precisely because of people like you that nothing will change.

    Israel will go on stealing land and treating Palestinians like dirt. The Palestinians will rise up. Then you’ll say aren’t those Palestinians bad. And off we go again.

    You really are a disgrace and the antithesis of anything Jesus talked about.

  • Michiel de Jong

    I doubted your statement that “Palestinians, Christian and Muslim, are united in their opposition to Israel.” I still do, notwithstanding your new ‘argument’; …”Then you are wrong. Muslim and Christians have lived together in the Holy Land for well over a thousand years. In fact, the Church in Gaza was sheltering Muslims during the Gaza offensive.”
    The fact that they live together doesn’t imply a shared opinion on any subject.
    And even if it has been a voluntary gesture to shelter Muslims in a church during a war, for which there are plenty of reasons to doubt,.. you are seriously confused when you think that the help of a Christian for whomever implies a unified stand on anything.

  • Bones

    “It is hardly surprising hardly any Jews live in either Hebron or Nazareth, because they kept being killed.”

    You’re making that crap up….

    The Christians kicked the Jews out of Nazareth after the Jews participated in a massacre in 614 CE against Christians…..It was the Roman Emperor Heraclius who expelled them….

    Had nothing to do with Arabs you goose.

    Hebron had occasions too where the Jews were expelled by Byzantine Emperors for fighting with the enemy. That’s why therir numbers in Hebron were never more than a thousand. After the 1929 Hebron Massacre, when the Arabs went crazy because they thought the Jews were taking over the Temple Mount, the British decided to move the Jews from Hebron.

    “The fact of the matter is the the British did their best to stymie the Jews and did nothing to prevent Arab slaughter of Jews.”

    And the Brits paid for it too. Jewish terrorists forced the Brits out after frequent assassinations and kidnapping of British soldiers and officials and bombings like you see today.

  • Bones

    Dude, you don’t seem to grasp much of anything, whether it’s the Bible or what the heck is happening in Palestine.

    The only one justifying violence, is you.

  • Ian Nairn

    http://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/world-watch-list/jordan/

    “Tensions between moderate and radical Islamic elements in Jordanian society are on the increase, under influence of the Arab uprisings and civil war in Syria. Tribal antagonism is clearly mixed with Islam. Jordanian society is multi-ethnic – a phenomenon which is also reflected by the monarchy. Jordan hosts large groups of refugees, mostly from Iraq and Syria, which leads to economic, political and religious pressure and are a potential destabilizing factor. The number of Christians in the country has been declining for half a century. For a long time, Jordan has been one of the most liberal countries of the region in terms of freedom of religion. However, the tide seems to be turning against Christians, especially for Christian converts from a Muslim background (MBBs) who suffer the most persecution.”

    Sure things aren’t as bad as some places, but it isn’t a good place to live as a Christian.

    More on the causality list from the recent Gazan conflict.
    http://jcpa.org/casualties-gaza-war/

    The
    United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) stated that its information on Palestinian casualties was provided by the Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza – a
    Hamas-controlled office.7 Two other organizations in Gaza, the Al Mezan Center for Human Rights8 and the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (PCHR),9 circulated casualty lists with inflated numbers of civilian deaths. In 2009, both organizations provided testimony and statistics to the now-discredited UN Goldstone Report on the war in Gaza.

    Even the Gaza Ministry of Health figures show that a
    disproportionately large percentage of casualties in Gaza were men of fighting age.10 If Israeli attacks were indeed “indiscriminate” or aimed at civilian shelters, as Hamas claimed, the percentages of men and women killed would have been close to 50 percent each. Instead, as presented by the Ministry of Health, men constituted 66 percent of the casualties, women 14 percent; children comprised 16 percent and elderly four percent.

    The “keeper of the statistics” in the Gaza Health Ministry is Ashraf al-Kidra, according to Associated Press.11 Kidra sits in an office at Gaza City’s Shifa Hospital (used by Hamas as a headquarters)12 and “receives casualty reports from hospitals and emergency services….Al-Kidra uses a very broad definition of civilians, saying the term applies to anyone who has not been claimed by one of the armed groups as a member.”

    You might as well get your source from Gobbels, Tht is the type of info far too many are relying on.

  • Michiel de Jong

    I am not going to defend the Settlement policies. As I already stated;… those policies are not helpful in creating peace.
    But your comments on Likud doesn’t takes away anything I said regarding the different approach between Israelis and Palestinians. The first wanting prosperity, the second the end of the state.
    Oh, .. and by the way…. a Likud PM once abandoned all settlements in Gaza… it didn’t help either… to the contrary. More rockets was the result.

  • Bones

    Pretty poor photoshop if you ask me…

    Mind you there’s plenty of other instances…

    It’s pretty disgraceful that you support this sort of violence against children.

    Not guilty. The Israeli captain who emptied his rifle into a Palestinian schoolgirl

    “· Officer ignored warnings that teenager was terrified · Defence says ‘confirming the kill’ standard practice

    An Israeli army officer who fired the entire magazine of his automatic rifle into a 13-year-old Palestinian girl and then said he would have done the same even if she had been three years old was acquitted on all charges by a military court yesterday.

    The soldier, who has only been identified as “Captain R”, was charged with relatively minor offences for the killing of Iman al-Hams who was shot 17 times as she ventured near an Israeli army post near Rafah refugee camp in Gaza a year ago.

    The manner of Iman’s killing, and the revelation of a tape recording in which the captain is warned that she was just a child who was “scared to death”, made the shooting one of the most controversial since the Palestinian intifada erupted five years ago even though hundreds of other children have also died.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2

  • Michiel de Jong

    “Even Hamas recognises the state of Israel” Not a single letter is skipped from their Charter on this subject…. And suggesting anything to the contrary can be considered as taqiyya.
    And again,… I do not support the Settlement policies. However abandoning this policy will not change a thing,.. as is proofed by the Gaza case.

  • Jeff Preuss

    All of your comments are patently stunning in their justification for bloodlust.

  • F. Elaine Anderson

    The position of the American Christian Left vis-a-vis Israel is every bit as politically motivated as that of the American Christian Right. Can’t you see that everywhere the cancer of civilization has spread is occupied land! Including the place on which you now stand. Where is the voice among you courageous enough to call civilization (the World, in Bibilical terms) to account for the rape of God’s creation? Instead of continuing to grant it legitimacy by taking sides in its penny ante political games. I understand that it feels ” empowering” to participate in its political processes but its only an illusion. And personally I don’t think the human race has much time left to continue deluding itself. Not to the tune of the extinction of 200 species every single day. Life is too interconnected, and it WILL. bring down the life form doing the “extincting” if we don’t wake up soon. Disengage, don’t continue to follow the false Messiah of either the political right or the political left. The whippourwills and the katydids and the rabbit tobacco thank you.

  • seashell

    But who teaches Dennis and reinforces this doctrine he stands and lives by? We know he’s not the only one who lives like this.

  • seashell

    …the concept of a state monopoly on the use force in a civil society.

    It would be great if the USA would entertain such a concept. Alas, conservative Christians play a large role in why it can’t.

  • Michiel de Jong

    Who else have the right to uses force in their opinion?

  • seashell

    You must have to look long and hard to find these sources, Ian. jokpeme.com? Your guy gets his info from the Israel Intelligence Heritage and Commemoration Center (IICC), a national site dedicated to the memory of fallen of the Israeli intelligence community. Not exactly a disinterested 3rd party, wouldn’t you say?

    The information I provided came from the United Nations General Assembly Resolution 29/25.

    Great job, Brownie!

  • Muhser Candidato

    They may have abandoned settlements in Gaza. But it was still under Israeli military control. With Israel regulating everything that goes in or out of Gaza. Even the food is limited according to the amount of calories the Gazans would consume daily. Abandoning the settlement was just to appease people protesting Israeli cruelty in Gaza. But the reality was, life continued to be hell for Gazans. Gaza is a virtual prison where prisoners have no rights and their jailers do to them what they will with impunity. Under these appaling living conditions, you expect Gazans to prosper and live peacefully? Why? Because Israel had abandoned settlements?! lol

  • Muhser Candidato

    In short, defend themselves against military occupation by lying down and waiting for said occupier to kill them. lol If Israel is just minding its own business, why did it occupy a land that doesn’t belong to it and then oppress its population?! It’s offensive how Israel is an apartheid nation.

  • Muhser Candidato

    IMO, Every nation and self-respecting human being, God’s chosen or not, has the right to resist occupation and use force, if necessary. This is even recognized by International Laws, that’s why all colonies are dismantled when UN was created. But according to you, only Israel has the right to use force and violence as defense. (Because they’re God’s chosen people?)What I can’t understand is since when an act of aggression became an act of self-defense?! Remember, Israel is the invader here. They’re the occupier. Therefore, it should be the invaded and occupied who has the right to use self-defense.

  • Muhser Candidato

    I will support Israel if it stops being an apartheid nation and start becoming a democratic country for real.If it starts abiding by international laws; if it recognizes non-Jewish citizens as having equal rights as its Jewish citizens;if it recognizes that Palestinian lives are just as valuable as Israelis. In short, if it stops being a lying bully nation.

  • Bernhard Henry Fynn

    Palestine was under English control for the U.N. the U.N. formally inaugarated the state of Israel in 1948 and as palestine was not a country, Israel did not steal any land from anyone. The people living in ebanon and other countries are in the country of origin, as there was never an arab nation called palestine.

  • Bernhard Henry Fynn

    Every one born in palestine was a palestinian because it was not a country, just as Europe is not a country. Rome Reanmed Israel, palestine in 135 A.D. Historical fact.

  • Bones

    Stop lying. Palestine had established borders and a government. It was classified by the League of Nations as a Class A Mandate ie a former Ottoman colony which was ready for independence. The other two Class A mandated governments were Iraq and Syria. It was the role of the British to help Palestine achieve full sovereignty.

  • Bones

    Palestine had established borders and a government. It was designated class A mandate by the League of Nations, the same as Iraq and Syria.

  • Bones

    Still justifying occupation I see.

    I must admit I haven’t read too much defence of the genocide of native Americans for some time.

    Maybe you can tell us how Arabs aren’t discriminated against in Israel.

  • Bones

    Well the settlement policies are an extension of Likuds charter. So you’ll just ignore that and blame the Palestinians.

    Once again you have no clue.

    Settlers burned a baby girl alive and the family receives no compensation as opposed to Jews.

    But yeah its about the rockets from Gaza that makes what Israel does great.

    Even if the rockets were fired because of a military operation which arrested 800 Palestinians, killed 9 , bulldozed hundreds of houses for a crime they didnt commit.

    We’ll just ignore that hey.

    Its about the rockets.

  • Bones

    The fact you’ve used taqiyyah shows you’ve been reading anti-Muslim hate sites which doesnt surprise me.

    I can see thats whats behind this.

    Tell us if Fatah recognises Israel.

    The people in Gaza cant fart without Israels permission.

    What will be interesting is what Israel does about the massive natural gas reserves found off the coast of Gaza.

  • Bones

    I certainly think there was a great deal of empathy for Jews after WW2. It certainly coloured my opinion of Israel.

  • Bones

    Dude you know no Palestinian Christians, neither do you give a rats about them

    You are far too tied up in your love of Israel and hatred of Islam.

    I know Palestinian Christians in Ramallah on the West Bank. They arent angry about Islam but they sure are about your beloved Israel.

    You’d better go over and set them straight.

    Stop embarrassing yourself.

  • Bernhard Henry Fynn

    Get a grip. Palestine was not a country, only a mandate. Syria has always been a country, iraq after the first war. England was committed only to establishing Israel, the Balfour declaration???????????????? Go back to kindergarten and gain some knowledge.

  • Bones

    Are you too stupid to even use Google?

    “Officially, the Mandate for Syria and the Lebanon (1923−1946),[1] (French: Mandat français pour la Syrie et le Liban), was a League of Nations mandate founded after the First World War and the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire.

    During the two years that followed the end of the war in 1918 – and in accordance with the Sykes-Picot Agreement that was signed between Britain and France during the war – the British held control of most OttomanMesopotamia (modern Iraq) and the southern part of the Ottoman Syria (Palestine and Transjordan), while the French controlled the rest of Ottoman Syria (modern Syria, Lebanon, Alexandretta) and other portions of southeastern Turkey. In early 1920s, the British and French control of these territories became formalized by the League of Nations’ mandate system, and France was assigned the League of Nations mandate of Syria on 29 September 1923, which included the territory of present day Lebanon and Alexandretta (Hatay) in addition to Syria proper.

    The administration of the region under the French was carried out through a number of different territories, including the Syrian Federation (1922–24), the State of Syria (1924–30) and the Syrian Republic (from 1930), as well as the smaller states of the State of Greater Lebanon, the Alawite State and Jabal Druze State.

    The French mandate of Syria lasted until 1943, when two independent countries emerged from the mandate period, Syria and Lebanon, in addition to Hatay, which had joined Turkey in 1939. French troops completely left Syria and Lebanon in 1946.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Mandate_for_Syria_and_the_Lebanon

    And Iraq

    “The British Mandate for Mesopotamia (Arabic: الانتداب البريطاني على العراق‎) was a Mandate proposed to be entrusted Britain at the San Remo, Italy-based conference,[1] in accordance with the Sykes–Picot Agreement.

    The proposed mandate was awarded on April 25, 1920, at the San Remo conference in Italy, but was not yet documented or defined. It was to be a Class A mandate under Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations. A draft mandate document was prepared by the British Colonial Office in June 1920. The Mandate with British administration was enacted via the Anglo-Iraqi Treaty.

    The proposed mandate faced certain difficulties to be established, as a nationwide Iraqi revolt broke out in 1920, after which it was decided the territory would become the Kingdom of Iraq, via the Anglo-Iraq Treaty.[1] The Kingdom of Iraq became independent in 1931-1932,[1] in accordance with the League of Nations stance, which stated such states would be facilitated into progressive development as fully independent states.[1]

    The civil government of postwar Iraq was headed originally by the High Commissioner, Sir Percy Cox, and his deputy, Colonel Arnold Wilson. British reprisals after the murder of a British officer in Najaf failed to restore order. British administration had yet to be established in the mountains of north Iraq. The most striking problem facing the British was the growing anger of the nationalists, who felt betrayed at being accorded mandate status.[citation needed]”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_for_Mesopotamia_(legal_instrument)

    They are exactly the same as Palestine. As you said they are countries and so was Palestine, All of them Class A Mandates.

    Once again your information is shown exactly for what it is – propaganda and misinformation which fools like you fall for.

  • Ian Nairn

    Did you even have a look at the information? Doesn’t look like it. If you had bothered to even have a look at what I provided you will see numerous cases of “civilians” and even “children” who were really adult terrorists, but that would destroy what you want to believe. They had pictures for you to see with links to Facebook pages posted by the terror groups themselves, but such research is far beyond your capabilities.

    Your source is the “Humans Rights council”? The joke of the UN where the greatest Human rights abusers are on the council trying to lecture Israel on how to treat people. Saudi Arabia where a woman was sentenced to 2000 lashes for being raped. Talk about a joke.

  • Ian Nairn

    What is your position on BDS?

  • Bones

    The same as with Apartheid in South Africa.

  • Michiel de Jong

    Being against violence targeted randomly at a civilian population, differs quite a lot from being in favour of genocide….
    The fact that you obviously confuse those two, disqualifies your assessment of any situation.

  • Michiel de Jong

    You should read more carefully… It’s NOT about the rockets, it’s about the motivation, the objective, the goals, of the respective parties. Rocket are the result of the problem, not the cause.
    Ignoring is more your thing.

  • Michiel de Jong

    You confuse cause and effect. The control of goods coming in is not the cause of the rockets, but the rockets are the cause of the control on goods.
    Your suggestion the Israel in limiting the amount of food going into Gaza,… well,… it’s indicative for the factual level of the discussion here… Sad.

  • Michiel de Jong

    I don’t read hate sites. It might be telling you assume somebody does, if he knows something….
    Anyway,.. you said Hamas recognizes Israel. Your statement has no connection with reality.
    I assume that as long as people in Gaza are able to buy and import material for rockets, are able to assemble and fire them,… that they can fart along the way.
    About the natural Gas reserve… the question what people in Gaza are going to do with it is far more important… are they going to use this wealth in a positive constructive way,.. building society,.. for the good of the people…?
    Unless they change their mind-set completely, it will not happen, unfortunately.

  • Michiel de Jong

    It should tell you something that so far you have been wrong on every assumption concerning my position, knowledge, or affiliation.
    In stead of fighting your own assumption about me, it would have been more constructive if you had actually addressed my points.
    There are some striking similarities between your approach and many of those you support over there; the preference for action on false facts and wrong ideas, versus constructive dialog.

  • Bones

    You disqualified yourself a long time ago.

  • Bones

    Nah your the one who ignores and justifies oppression.
    Oh you dont see any oppression of Arabs.

    Completely ignorant.

  • Bones

    Theres no facts from your end. Just continual propaganda.

    You must be a masochist who likes getting their arse belted such has been your performance on here.

  • Bones

    You talk crap as usual and you read hate sites. Anyone who spouts that nonsense about taqiyyah doesnt have a clue and reads it off anti-muslim hate sites.

    The question is what is Israel going to do about the gas reserves. It already has its eyes on it.

  • Bones

    Bahaha.

    I’ve addressed your points.

    You only have propaganda and hatred of Muslims.

    No wonder you’re so in love with Israel. They can do what they want to Christian Arabs and you won’t give a shit.

    What a piece of work you are.

  • Michiel de Jong

    I hope for you that nobody in your surrounding is thinking that somebody is occupying ‘their land’… no native American thinking that about European descendants,… no white American thinking about Latino’s that they come to occupy the land,… no islamophobes thinking that Muslim refugees come to do that….. Are you sure nobody see you as an occupier? ..
    Your believe, attitude and approach is shared by many in the Middle East and the reason why they have so much fun.

  • LOL. First century Pharisees were liberals? So absurd it’s actually funny.

  • Aliya Fathma Najihati

    If I were brutally occupied for more than 60 years, saw how homes around me were demolished only for the sake of strangers from Boston who happen to be Jews, had lost at least one family member or relative, being humiliated and violently subjected to illegal settler scums while IDF sadly just sits and watches, jailed for 20 years for throwing rocks and got my home demolished right away but when the settlers did they would NOT be punished, watched how they’re allowed to bring gun yet they say I’m the terrorist (note how they slung the gun on their shoulders publicly as to show people who have the power over soldiers and Netanyahu), maybe I would hate you so much that I wouldn’t mind being shot if I could at least hurt one of you. I can’t think what kind of hatred it is that can drive people someone, but you’ll never know how far frustration and desperation will take you.

    PS. Before anyone saying I’m a Hamas supporter, let me be just clear that I’m definitely not. I don’t care about Hamas, I care about the ordinary Palestinians.

  • Aliya Fathma Najihati

    So basically just let Palestinians sit and watch while more and more injustice done to them? Sure I’ll let them know.

    God you’re hopelessly sick. I have Israeli friend who happens to be a soldier, but at least he knows and understands the depression and frustration that Palestinians have been feeling. Not only that, he also realizes that his country has been occupying Palestine for decades as well as building more and more illegal settlements and he actually thinks all of them are wrong. He warns me of people like you though, the ones who refuse to see the truth.

  • Aliya Fathma Najihati

    The settlements and the occupation are what drive them to do it. Don’t just brush illegal settlements as something unimportant when in fact it is.

  • Dennis Wilson

    You might want to read the many condemnations by Jesus on them for perverting the law. Liberals today try to change what God has said in His word. Think homosexuality, fornication and works salvation to name a few.

    Scripture is to be obeyed not changed to allow ones sin.

  • Bones

    People like him aren’t interested in truth or what is happening to the Palestinians.

    He’s with Israel, right or wrong.

  • Bones

    Pretty sure the Pharisees were going to stone a woman and Jesus rebuked them for applying the law.

    I wonder how many gays and adulterous women Jesus killed.

    I mean He followed the Law didn’t He.

    Conservatives are the pharisees today. They would kill Jesus for hangi g around gay people or not following their doctrine of inerrency.

    Jesus echoes the prophets “let mercy triumph over judgement”.

    But even Israel doesnt follow the Law. Its too immoral to be publicly killing people for picking up sticks on the Sabbath.

  • Michiel de Jong

    “So basically just let Palestinians sit and watch while more and more injustice done to them? Sure I’ll let them know. God you’re hopelessly sick.”

    Yep,… that’s what we call in Christian doctrine: ‘turn the other cheek’.
    … and please “let them know”… I am quite sure when your friends stop their rockets, stabbings and suicide attacks… the Israelis start minding their own business,.. and things will improve.

  • Michiel de Jong

    I indicated several times here that I oppose the West Bank-settlement policies of Israel.
    But don’t try to sell me the BS that these policies are the root cause of the problems. They are not. Prior to the occupation of the West Bank several attempts were undertaken to wipe Israel from the map. So,.. what you stated is simply not true.
    And moreover… history proofs that a withdrawal from an occupied territory and the abandoning of settlements didn’t improve anything,.. to the contrary…! Gaza was left to the Palestinians and they turned it into a rocket launce platform. Were you surprised that those rocket were being noticed and draw some response?

  • seashell

    It’s unclear whether Israel is still limiting food, but for almost 2 years – between 2007 and May 2010 – Israel did limit the amount of food it allowed into Gaza. Under the pretext of weakening Hamas, Israel allowed only 2,279 calories per person, per day, for every man and woman and child in Gaza.

    “The official goal of the policy was to wage ‘economic warfare’ which would paralyze Gaza’s economy and, according to the Defense Ministry, create pressure on the Hamas government.”

    Israel is still waging economic, as well as regular warfare against Palestinians, just maybe not through food anymore.

  • seashell

    Why do I doubt Israel is spending billions on the defense budget? Wait! Made in America rings a bell.

  • Bones

    So now you’ve gone from not knowing about any persecution of Palestinian Christians to full on supporting it.

    As if you can talk about the teachings of Christ.

    He’s ashamed of you.

  • Michiel de Jong

    “He’s ashamed of you.”
    I don’t think so, and I don’t think you know. At least I am not that worried about land to justify civil disobedience for this, resulting in violence. (Heb11:16, Mat 5:5).

  • Michiel de Jong
  • Michiel de Jong

    What is it that you want to say? That you can imagine their hate? Does that justify their actions in your opinion?

  • Michiel de Jong

    It’s disgusting the way you treat facts. A limit was set not as a maximum, but as a minimum, to make sure that notwithstanding a economic boycott, no food shortage will happen.

  • The Happy Atheist

    I made no such assumption, implicitly or explicitly.

  • Bones

    If you think Fatah are trying to wipe Israel off the map then you are completely ignorant.

    Gaza is under the control of Hamas which Israel supported to weaken Fatah.

    You have no idea about anything,

  • Bones

    Would Jesus support Christians who support oppression and apartheid?

    Let’s think about that……

    Ummm. No.

    Of course keyboard warriors can just tell the Palestinians to suck it up like they would if they were in their shoes.

    You know nothing of the teachings of Christ.

    Btw civil disobedience is exactly what Christians have practised from the first century to MLK to apartheid South Africa.

    But we know which side you’d be on.

  • Michiel de Jong

    As I said before, I don’t support oppression either. And concerning civil disobedience… the part you missed is the aspect of violence. It seems you haven’t noticed the difference between MLK and stabbing, rocket firing, suicide bombers.

  • Michiel de Jong

    Oh,… that one I haven’t heard before; “Israel supports Hamas”… I always wondered,… what is Israel doing..? Ah! they are supporting Hamas,…. Who needs friends with supporters like that?
    Where did you get this ‘information’ from…. Egyptian conspiracy theory free media?

  • Bones

    According to Charles Freeman, a former US ambassador to Saudi Arabia, “Israel started Hamas. It was a project of Shin Bet, which had a feeling that they could use it to hem in the PLO.”

    Anthony Cordesman, a Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic Studies, states that Israel “aided Hamas directly—the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO.”

    New York Times Reporter David Shipler cites the Israeli military governor of Gaza as boasting that Israel expressly financed the fundamentalists against the PLO:

    “Politically speaking, Islamic fundamentalists were sometimes regarded as useful to Israel, because they had conflicts with the secular supporters of the PLO. Violence between the two groups erupted occasionally on West Bank university campuses. Israeli military governor of the Gaza Strip, Brigadier General Yitzhak Segev, once told me how he had financed the Islamic movement as a counterweight to the PLO and the Communists. ‘The Israeli Government gave me a budget and the military government gives to the mosques,’ he said.”

    A former senior CIA official speaking to UPI describes Israel’s support for Hamas as “a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative.”

    Further, according to an unnamed US government official, “the thinking on the part of some of the right-wing Israeli establishment was that Hamas and the other groups, if they gained control, would refuse to have anything to do with the peace process and would torpedo any agreements put in place.”

    Larry Johnson, a counterterrorism official at the State Department, states: “The Israelis are their own worst enemies when it comes to fighting terrorism. They are like a guy who sets fire to his hair and then tries to put it out by hitting it with a hammer. They do more to incite and sustain terrorism than curb it.”[UNITED PRESS INTERNATIONAL, 2/24/2001 SOURCES: LARRY C. JOHNSON, UNNAMED FORMER CIA OFFICIAL]

  • Bones

    Oh it’s just Israel that’s ok…..They don’t oppress Arabs….they just get rewarded for it…like this guy was awarded 80,000 shekels for his service and 3000 shekels for legal fees. But yeah rockets are bad…

    “Not guilty. The Israeli captain who emptied his rifle into a Palestinian schoolgirl

    · Officer ignored warnings that teenager was terrified
    · Defence says ‘confirming the kill’ standard practice

    An Israeli army officer who fired the entire magazine of his automatic rifle into a 13-year-old Palestinian girl and then said he would have done the same even if she had been three years old was acquitted on all charges by a military court yesterday.

    The soldier, who has only been identified as “Captain R”, was charged with relatively minor offences for the killing of Iman al-Hams who was shot 17 times as she ventured near an Israeli army post near Rafah refugee camp in Gaza a year ago.”

    …….

    “In the recording, a soldier in a watchtower radioed a colleague in the army post’s operations room and describes Iman as “a little girl” who was “scared to death”. After soldiers first opened fire, she dropped her schoolbag which was then hit by several bullets establishing that it did not contain explosive. At that point she was no longer carrying the bag and, the tape revealed, was heading away from the army post when she was shot.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2

    But then it wasn’t Arabs who assassinated Rabin was it?

    Why was Rabin killed?

  • Michiel de Jong

    Based on the facts I’ve read about the case I would have probably convicted the soldier. I understood his defence was that the rules of engagement prescribe to eliminate Palestinians entering the military base and that was precisely what happened. That doesn’t absolve him from his obligation to make an own assessment as well and he could have known that this rule hasn’t envisioned 13 years old girls. The consideration from the High Court Justices in this case mentioned the “complex circumstances in which the operational judgement took place”, but this was not a split-second decision, he had tens of seconds. On the other hand,.. it would not have been the first Palestinian child that was send with a bomb to blow himself up.
    You might be right that the Court ruling was wrong in this case. But look at it from an other perspective…. Has there ever been a consideration from an Arab court about any action taken by terrorists (or freedom fighter if you prefer that description)… on questions of ‘rules of engagements’, ‘proportionality’, civilian casualties and how far they have gone to prevent those..??
    The truth is… you haven’t even thought about it.. It’s that far from reality..! … from your reality.

  • Bones

    Excuses, excuses….

    ‘Complex circumstances’ hey….

    Of course when it comes to Palestiniáns there is no excuse of ‘complex circumstances’.

    The truth is… you support oppression and apartheid policies.

    The fact that you couldn’t be bothered communicating with or reading about Palestinian Christians but cling to your own fascist ideology shoes how far from reality you are.

    There is no truth in you.

    Just propaganda.

  • Michiel de Jong

    Without any doubt division among Palestinians was and is being considered as tactically beneficial. But those who started Hamas did so for reasons they had and still have and which is clearly outlined in their Charter and which don’t line up with the interests of the state of Israel. Saddam Hoessein was one of the biggest donors at the beginning.

  • Bones

    You can’t help making an arse of yourself.

    Israel has achieved it’s ambition of dividing the Palestinian Authority.

    Happy now?

    Btw can you tell me why Rabin was assassinated?

  • Michiel de Jong

    Because some ultra right wing religious Jew, who considered the use of violence against the state justified on the bases of his own conviction, opposed the peace process that took place at that time.
    Consistent with everything I said here, it could be crystal clear I opposed these actions. But you…? What’s your argument against this taking of matters in own hands, resistance, violence?

  • Bones

    Why did the ultra right wing Jew oppose the peace process?

    (Note: who else opposed the peace process – clue: they’re now in government)

    “Netanyahu Has 24 Hours Left to Apologize for the Incitement That Ended in Rabin’s Murder

    It’s true Netanyahu did not want a murder. But incitement doesn’t follow the inciter’s plan. It has ways to bring the hand to the knife, the finger to the trigger.

    For 20 years we have been sweeping the issue under the rug. We want to get on with our lives and allow time to work. That’s the reason for the bizarre agreement not to investigate the leaders of the terrible incitement that ended in Rabin’s murder. But that won’t cut it. The wound will never heal.

    In all these 20 years they never questioned the rabbis who called Rabin a “moser” (informer), which carries a death sentence; or the settler leaders who called him a traitor, the punishment for which is hanging — both, according to Jewish rabbinic law. They never probed the conductors of pulsa denura ceremonies, who place a curse on Rabin invoking a cruel and unusual death. Nor did they question the politicians, senior figures in Likud — chief among them Benjamin Netanyahu, who stood on a balcony above Jerusalem’s Zion Square and inflamed the crowd. They saw the posters of Rabin in an SS uniform, but did not protest, halt or condemn those who called out “murderer,” “traitor,” “Nazi.” Nor have we forgotten the march at the Ra’anana junction led by Netanyahu, who did not stop the carrying of a black-draped coffin bearing Rabin’s name.

    read more: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.683876

  • Michiel de Jong

    I agree, it’s terrible. Taking matters into their own hands can’t be justified. Not for this Jewish assassin and his aids, nor for the random stabbing Arabs. However it happens and for this unfortunate reason you need the power of the state to either prevent these events, or put the perpetrators in jail.
    Chances on peace increase when those groups or individuals who commit violence don’t get any support……. no moral support, no financial support….
    I consider your framing of Netanyahu for this assassination to be dishonest. He vented, as opposition leader, his opposition to government policies. That is the job of an opposition leader in a democracy. And speaking on a rally, don’t make you responsible for every nasty sign, or phrase, or convictions held by some of those attending the same rally.

  • Munson X

    If Jesus isn’t coming back, what was Paul talking about in 1 Thessalonians 5?

  • Bones

    Netanyahu was part of the incitement and his years of opposing peace is there for all to see.

    No doubt he’s your hero.

  • The destroyer

    Evil in the sight of the Lord

  • The destroyer

    All you posts have proved you support oppression by Israel. Evil in the sight of the Lord!

  • The destroyer

    yep your posts prove you read anti muslim hate sights. Evil in the sight of the Lord

  • The destroyer

    Anger is murder. Jesus destroyed any theological argument for the death penalty or murder/killing. Death penalty and just war theology belongs in the garbage bin that is where it belongs. Not Jesus in any way shape of form

  • Dennis Wilson

    Jesus Christ was God incarnate. You obviously don’t know that. God ordained the death penalty for murder in Scripture. And anger is not the issue in capital punishment.

  • Bones

    Yeah like Jesus stoned a woman.

    Oh no, he didn’t!

    Jesus of course was a victim of the death penalty but we’ll let that one slide, eh.

  • Marra Nathar

    Have you asked why Hamas, whose motto is we love death more than life, purposefully put their people in the way of harm, stood them around rocket launchers and built tunnels rather than bomb shelters, in order to win the war they intended to win – propoganda. The destruction of support for Israel. Israel sends leaflets and sms messages to all areas it is going to target to tell civillians to move away. Hamas won’t let them leave. The deaths of the Palestinians especially the children is on the heads of Hamas. They fired the rockets at Israel for a full 48 hrs before Israel retaliated. They stored the rockets in schools.

    France was hit by only the second Terrorist strike (compared to countless by Israel) and declared war on Isil…and bombed hard. Were civillians killed? Yep. Do we hear about it in the news? No.

    This is all about Islam’s hatred for Jews and Israel. It is all about the devil’s hatred for Jews and Israel.

    The bible says that God would restore the Jews to the land. That this HAD to happen in order to usher in the end times of revelation. The 3rd temple must be built and will be built according to the word of God.

    And watch out for Islam.

    There will be no more peace on this earth until it is declared by the Anti-Christ. But he will fool most people.

    Don’t let him fool you.

    Jesus comes back to the Mount of Olives. And he will come back. Are you ready?

  • Dennis Wilson

    Do you think that you are funny? Do you think that you know what you are talking about?

    You don’t know that your statement reveals that you don’t know who Jesus was.

  • Michiel de Jong

    You doubt too little and therefor you are often wrong, as in this case.

  • Matthew46

    Read: Method and Madness; the hidden story of Israel’s assault on Gaza (N. Finklestein) and all will be revealed.
    ….
    It’s going to be a long wait, Marra.
    ..
    I won’t be waiting for a non-event. Pagan stories of resurrected returning gods are a dime a dozen.

  • I stopped supporting Israel when I cut ties with the Republican Party and started expanding my worldview. What we have going on in the whole Israel-Palestine conflict is a brutal colonial occupation which has repeated itself over and over again throughout history. The natives are the Palestinians, the colonial oppressors are the European Jews who migrated over following the end of WWII. As you alluded in your post, even fellow Jews are not safe. Rabbi beating aside, the tale of Mordechai Vanunu is another graphic depiction of how fellow Jews who fall on the wrong side of the Israeli Establishment get it as bad or worse than the Palestinian people.

  • Jeff Kology

    Many Christians tout the “I will bless those that bless thee” promise as a command to bless the nation of Israel. But at the same time, God gave Israel some rules; among them are a prohibition of forming military alliances and maintaining a standing army in times of peace. I suppose God’s rationale was that He wanted to display His might by saving Irsael Himself, kind of a David and Goliath thing. Modern Israel clearly has not kept these commands. And if they don’t, are we still obligated to “bless” them, particularly if your concept of “blessing” them includes forming a military alliance with them?

  • kaydenpat

    Great post. Found out recently that there are Orthodox Jews who are firmly opposed to Zionism.
    http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/opposition.cfm

  • cyndyt

    This should be the number 1 reason.

    Who Is Israel ?

    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/topical/who-is-israel_video.php

    Dr Mitri Raheb – Seven Things You Never Knew About Palestine And The

    Palestinians

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBhFF8V2_J4

    The Octopus

    http://www.pdfarchive.info/pdf/D/Di/Dilling_Elizabeth_-_The_Octopus.pdf

    http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/israel/index.shtml

    Revelation and the Rothschild connection

    http://proliberty.com/observer/20090404.htm

    CYRUS SCOFIELD — WHO WAS HE?

    http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/hoax/scofield.htm

    http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/hoax/index.html#.VlziyV6urmt

    Miko Peled on “Israel and Gaza: Six Decades of Oppression and Resistance”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHQIzaZoCfI

    Special Series – The Day Israel Attacked America

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx72tAWVcoM

  • cyndyt

    Jesus’ kingdom is not and will not be on earth. That comes from the Talmud

  • Dennis Wilson

    Jesus will return and set up His kingdom here on earth and he will rule with a rod of iron. His earthly rule on earth is certain and often mentioned in Scripture. I’m sorry that you did not know that.

  • e. brrok

    Do you know that majority of Israelis are from arab origin sephardic Jews and not Europeans? They were expelled from arab countries, in fact upto 1 million jews were expelled. Boundaries of the state of Israel is not determined as yet, arab palestinians had ample opportunities to live in peace with the jews in their own state, which they rejected many times. The native population of palestine are the jews, infact before the arabs hijacked the name palestine, a palestinian was being referred to a jew. Mordechai Vanunu was a traitor to his country if he would have done what he did in an arab country he would have been executed with in an hour.

  • e. brrok

    This is a typical anti semitic narrative you are using in here. You are expecting Israel to survive on miracles, Even God has rejected this as he expects of you to do your part. Blaming Jews for their own murder is a typical christian antisemitic accusation.

  • e. brrok

    They are a tiny minority, few hundred at most. You are holding onto a few and forgetting about the millions.

  • e. brrok

    Do you know you cannot build a church in a muslim state such as Saudi arabia. Do you know a christian in a muslim ruled state is known as dehimi which is a degrading social and religious state and a low cast individual and infact to stay alive he has to pay a fine called a Jizah to his local mosque.

  • Grinning Cat

    That Saudi Arabia mistreats Christians is a good reason for Christians not to support Saudi Arabia. Likewise, that Israel mistreats Christians is a good reason for Christians not to support Israel.

  • This is all really frustrating because there’s still a fundamental difference between “I support the Israeli people’s right to exist and to live in happiness as well as peace” and “I will always and forever agree 100% with what the Israeli government as a government chooses to do”. The difference is… gigantic. Seriously.

    That the U.S. federal system has engaged in horrible things just over the past, say, decade and a half (think of exact examples such as the ATF gunwalking scandal, the Niger uranium forgeries, the Secret Service prostitution fiasco, and so on)… does that mean that there’s anything inherently evil or wrong about the American people? Does it imply that there’s any reason to not believe in a better world for Americans, working for a more peaceful and just society? The answers are clear.

  • e. brrok

    Do you know the only country in the middle east where the christian population has in fact increased is in Israel. Israel Welcomes Christians, both by its people and its government. The concept of Israel miss treating the Christians is base less and is created by same people who hate the Christians in all countries regardless or by anti semite who wish to harm the jewish state. Christians are loved and are welcome in Israel.

  • Yana Babich

    I could present lots of facts, but if I do, wouldn’t you tell me that’s propaganda and lies? I am an Israeli, an atheist; I find this post very biased.

  • Yana Babich

    Ben,

    What would you want us (Israelis) to do? I am an Israeli living in the USA, I love Israel, I want peace. But I don’t believe it can be achieved. I find your post very, very biased. But everything I would try to say will be claimed as propaganda.

    There are so many extremely violent actions the Palestinians have committed, dozens of them; will it help if I will provide the links? I don’t think so…

  • Bones

    No. You are wrong.

  • Dennis Wilson

    The Scriptures so state, you are the one who is wrong.

  • Bones

    No, you do not understand.

  • Dennis Wilson

    No, you refuse to understand.

  • Bones

    Revelation is not a futuristic text. You don’t have a clue…..

    What would Jesus’s iron rule look like anyway? ISIS?

    Talk about believing any ol nonsense…..

  • Dennis Wilson

    Your ignorance of Scripture is appalling!

  • Herm

    Dennis, you are ignorant when you are so sure that within your short time aware on earth that you now know so much that there couldn’t possibly be something you don’t know. What about the only begotten Son of Man/Son of God’s ultimate service to mankind don’t you understand? Why would you believe a God with the patience to wait eons to grace us with the image of Their Spirit would demand little ignorant children like us, still consigned to our crib for safety, would have anything beyond love and awe to serve Them with? God serves us that we might live in Their love.

    Dear Father in heaven, I ask you to forgive Dennis as (s)he intimidates and manipulates in Your name who (s)he does not know his heart and mind open to you. (S)he has been told by her peers that she is right, strong and surely saved if she portrays You as a vindictive child abusing God. (S)he does not know the Word within whom (s)he would know the sacrificial love of God. Help us to help her/him, please. amen

  • Dennis Wilson

    You wrote: “Dennis, you are ignorant when you are so sure that within your short time aware on earth that you now know so much that there couldn’t possibly be something you don’t know.”

    I have made no such claim. That is a false accusation by you.

  • Dennis Wilson

    Herm, the remainder of your first paragraph is totally disconnected from the fact that Jesus will return to earth and set up His kingdom and from anything I have written. I find it bizarre.

    A simple question to you Herm – Yes or no, will Jesus return to earth, establish His kingdom and rule it?

  • Herm

    Dennis, where do you get this “simple” test from? The following is true according to the scripture you falsely claim to be empowered to tell others just how ignorant they are compared to you.

    God is spirit only.

    Christ Jesus has all authority over heaven and on earth right now. Our Messiah is not dead. Our Rabbi is actively instructing. His disciples know Him personally and He us. He is in us and we are in Him.

    He is the only Teacher of God’s children ever necessary and is seen today by His students who have been eternally whelmed by the Spirit of truth. He asks that we teach only by our example to make students in Him, not by our theoretical theology of organized religion. Reciprocal relationships of love are never theoretical as they are always purely relational and you know them because you are with and in them.

    You’re trying to enforce lessons taught only by those who are not in the Word and the Word is not in them. You are intimidating and manipulating, in the traditions of hell and damnation, as you have been taught by your religious fathers, mothers, sisters and brothers. What you have adopted as your own theory is relative to the carnal which will all pass away including the parchments of scripture you give sacred authority to. All scripture in counsel with the Holy Spirit is no more than a pointer to the Word of God with all authority and is not the word of God with all authority. The Holy Spirit is the word of God truly and only shares what Jesus and our Father tell Him to verbatim. BY your fruit you do not speak as a little child of God. You do not speak from the Spirit that binds each within God within their hearts and minds together eternally. You are presently a Pharisee and teacher of the law who does not recognize God in your midst. Because many of us do know God in our hearts and minds this only makes us hurt for your sincere ignorance shared as though gospel. Why would you think living in a future life where we are harshly regimented to be subservient to the service of an exacting God is good news (gospel)? Isn’t a relationship as a little child being served and adoring loved forever as we grow and learn within an eternally divine family seem much more like real good news? I am sharing the latter as the real gospel with you today.

    Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

    He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

    He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Revelation 21:1-6

    Please note, “He who was seated on the throne” spoke clearly in the present (as I am making everything new today) chronicled by John at the least 1,945 years ago. Do you truly believe everything just came to a stop after Jesus’ ascension and/or at the end of the book of Revelations?

    I’m going to assume you have read some scripture for yourself and are not preaching the second coming purely on hearsay. The temple raised in three days exists today where Jesus and our Father sits on the throne of the Lamb and of God. The river of the water of life flows down the middle of the street. The tree of life is bearing fruit right now.

    This is true today for all His disciples then, now and eternally:

    “If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.” John 14:15-21

    We were given the advocate as promise when the curtain was torn from top to bottom that was before the Holy of Holies, the temple destroyed. All His disciples today know Him in them and them in Him, the temple of worship in the Spirit.

    You have made it clear that you do not know Him in you because by your fruit you are of the world who does not see Him. What you are so concerned about is pure conjecture by those who study the Bible but do not study directly from Jesus the only Rabbi, in the tradition of the Pharisees, Sadducee and teachers of the law. You are a today minion of Man’s rule and not of our Lord God’s rule. You teach that we must serve God first when Jesus teaches all today that He serves first as our elder Brother that we may know how to follow constructively and productively in His example as His little siblings. How many little children do you know who know how to serve their carnal family of birth with anything beyond love except that graced them by their family first? All little children are served all things first by the grace of their mature guardians and this is no different, though on an infinitely more grand and divine scale, for the little children of God. We are only expected to learn to love to share our cup running. The only commands of Jesus the Messiah were that His sisters, brothers and mother love; from their enemy to themselves to their neighbors culminating in all love for their Lord God.

    I know this today. All other concepts generated from mankind’s conjecture mean absolutely nothing to me. Bones was right in comparing your behavior to the spirit of ISIS. When truly under the tutelage of Christ you will then know to humbly pick up your cross in love of your enemy in place of your sword to destroy you enemy as do the fundamentalists of ISIS. God needs no protection from any but can protect all who accept Their grace. They ask nothing more of us than eventually a relational return of selfless love on Their investment. We all, even the Pharisees, Sadducee and teachers of the law who did not recognize the Spirit of God in their midst, have never fallen from the grace of God who has been inspired always from Their abundant love of mankind created in Their spiritual image by Their grace of shared breath.

    Why would you care when or how all this childish damage inflicted amongst Man in gross carnal sibling rivalry, pitting them against us, might end if today you knew you were at peace with joy as one united in God as Their little child? Why would you care about a heaven or hell, which you could not possibly understand as does God, today if you were actually in divine peace and joy relating with your Brother Jesus in all you do physically, socially and spiritually? The heart, soul, strength and mind spoken of in Luke 10:27 is spiritual. If you love today with all your recognized spirituality trusting, as an otherwise helpless little child, that your family of God will provide, nurture and love you eternally why do you worry about a second coming in the clouds? The kingdom Jesus rules is here today!

    Love you and do know where you are coming from for I once was there but now I see. I hope the same for you!

  • Dennis Wilson

    Why do you refuse to answer my question? Is it because you deny that Jesus was God incarnate, God manifested in the flesh.?
    Again, yes or no, will will Jesus return to earth, establish His Kingdom and rule over it?

  • Herm

    Dennis, I answered your question. Are you blind that you do not see that Jesus Christ is here, now? What does all authority over heaven and on earth mean to you and when was that authority established according to scripture?

    We children of God are maturing to one day have absolutely no need of carnal bodies to communicate with each other. As we grow to that day of forever separating from the umbilical cord tying us to the physical we will be provided all the carnal environment necessary by those who can nurture us forever. As a little child did you understand the full ramifications of when your family transported you to new environments? Did not you even only begin to understand the new environment once you trusted your family to take you there?

    I do not care where my Father takes me for I fully trust that it will be much better than I can provide for myself. If you knew the Father you would have no concern of the future for your life would be dependent upon and in trust of His most capable love. I let today, at work and at play, happen in complete faith that my Father and my Brother will guide me into all I need to enjoy and grow forever.

    Jesus has already returned for all who are baptized by the Holy Spirit. I serve no other Lord than my Brother who serves me today. I see Him now, right now, as His disciples saw Him 1,982 years ago after His crucifixion. How many ways can I tell you that it is only because you choose to wait to come to Him as no more knowledgeable than a little child that you don’t see Him and serve Him according to our Father’s will?

    You wrote exactly, “Again, yes or no, will will Jesus return to earth, establish His Kingdom and rule over it?” I am answering exactly with, “Jesus’ Kingdom is established and He rules over it today as my Lord and Brother. Jesus is here!”

  • Dennis Wilson

    I’m not about to read your long dissertations. Was Jesus Christ, God, manifested in the flesh, yes or no, and will Jesus returned to earth and set up His kingdom and rule it, yes or no?

  • Herm

    You will remain ignorant subject only to the blind leading the blind. I answered your questions only for you to “simply” test to crucify the heretic. I carry my cross while you execute in the name of your god, ISIS style. The same simple questions of faith are sincerely asked by ISIS elitists before they exact their judgment, not God’s. The same simple questions of faith were asked the Messiah before He was murdered in the name of God … yes or no?

  • Dennis Wilson

    You plainly don’t know who Jesus is and you plainly don’t believe Scripture.
    I exposed you with ease.
    BTW, do you really believe anybody will read all that incoherent gibberish you wrote?

  • Bones

    No yours is.

    You’ve never studied it have you?

    You still haven’t told us what Jesus’s iron rule will look like.

    Tell those of us who are supposedly ignorant yet studied this for years what that means in your little mind.

  • Herm

    The last thing I need to grow with and in Jesus is a judge by your example. In your ignorance you’ve exposed nothing founded on even less.

    The Word is Jesus, the only begotten Son of Man/Son of God, who was at the beginning. The only “word of God” in the scripture written, edited, compiled and blessed as sacred text only by carnal Man, not by God, is the living Holy Spirit, Advocate, Comforter, Counselor, Spirit of truth and Dove within the hearts and minds of all of God as one in one.

    Your pride blinds you to the Spirit of truth. Your loyalty to Man administered religion blinds you to the full and sufficient authority of the Lord God. That all I write is “incoherent gibberish” to you only supports all that I have written relative to your ignorance. Such was the judgment of Caiaphas on my Brother. I rest my case which was meant only to help you see beyond yourself to find that Jesus is real and here, right now. Jesus judges perfectly well without each of us.

    I leave you with the fact that you can’t know Jesus any other way than asking, seeking and knocking as a little child, without the despicable words and traditions of Man, that He may whelm (baptize) you with the Holy Spirit. If your scripture does not lead you to that relationship then that scripture is worthless for without the Spirit it is only disintegrating parchment.

    I understand you though you don’t understand me. Jesus understood Caiaphas though Caiaphas didn’t understand Jesus. Judas didn’t understand Jesus until it was too late. Don’t blasphemous the Holy Spirit, the only true and faithful word of God in your midst, just for your pride of self indulgent authority and carnal profit, really, don’t.

    Good luck!

  • Dennis Wilson

    You don’t know who Jesus is, you don’t know God’s plan and purpose, His plan of redemption and why God had to come in human flesh. You don’t know because you don’t know Scripture.

    I firmly believe that you do believe that you will go to heaven because you are a good person and do good works. In other words you believe that you will go to heaven because you deserve it.

  • Dennis Wilson

    Why don’t you read Scripture and find out ? You could do a google search asking for the verses pertaining to the return of Jesus and His coming rule in His kingdom on earth, but you already knew that didn’t you?
    Your problem, like the majority of mankind is unbelief.

  • Herm

    You speak so foolishly about what you do not know. Just what were you redeemed from to do what in an eternal life? Jesus is in me and I am in Jesus, really, I know it is hard for you to believe. Jesus is in heaven and I am on earth. Jesus is on earth and I am in heaven as I write to you. I’m in heaven right now and I certainly don’t know enough to have earned it beyond love.

    The only of mankind who will not inherit eternal life are those who cannot love their Lord God with all their heart, with all their soul, with all their strength and with all their mind plus they must love their merciful neighbor as they do themselves. To inherit means to receive something given through death from a relative that you yourself have not earned, the relative earned it. To inherit eternal life you must already be a relative of the Father’s Son and that does not include only an image of God. The only reason a omnipotent God can in all good conscience grant such a bequest is knowing that the inheritance will be used for good (constructive and productive) and not evil for as long as the inheritance should last, in this case forever. Those who will die the death of eternally and anonymously knowing nothing after this their carnal opportunity in the image of God are those who cannot love their enemy, themselves, their neighbor and their Lord God with all they have authority of consequence over.

    You “simply” explain this heaven you speak of going to and what makes it so important to you. What do you plan on doing with eternal life?

  • Dennis Wilson

    You just don’t get it. I along with everyone else are not interested in your cult indoctrinated gibberish. You really think people are going to read your confusion?

  • Herm

    I get much more than you seem to. I gain absolutely nothing whether you read what I write or not. I vulnerably put it out there to help others come to the peace I know today that I did not know when I used all the christian exclusive buzz words you simply wish to test others by. People do read what is confusion to you and you just can’t risk reading. Check the up votes trailing behind this thread we have shared. Check the up votes on my prolific comments compared to yours.

    Dennis, this is not a competition in debate with one winner. If you wish to bet your life on Jesus’ return and your interpretations of scripture the consequences for your choice belong to you. If you insist on calling others ignorant without seeing the plank in your own eye the consequences belong to you. I have read every word you have written with an open mind and would have you do the same with what I take the time to write to you. Mine is longer because as I write the Spirit is painting the pictures that I try my hardest, for your sake, to shorten down to less than a thousand words worth.

    What do you think you are gaining with your continuing to subject me to hollow retorts with no scriptural support much less a foundation relationship with Jesus directly as His little sibling?

  • Dennis Wilson

    You need to write several pages at a time.

  • Herm

    Your point? The scripture you accuse others of being ignorant of are more than several pages which you will laboriously find out should you ever decide to actually read it. Actual caring is more than a one liner!

  • Dennis Wilson

    You make no sense.

  • Herm

    Your reading comprehension is too limited to make sense of any valid spiritual presentation including the scripture you speak so highly of. Leave it be! Bye

  • Dennis Wilson

    Are you homosexual? If not, I strongly suspect that you at least believe that a practicing homosexual will inherit eternal life, contrary to Scripture.

  • Bones

    Still can’t tell us what Jesus’s iron rule will be like, hey?

    I’m not surprised.

    What’s funny is that the author of Revelation would have you grouped with the False Prophet (Paul).

    That’s you he has burning in the lake of fire…..

    It’s bizarre that this book is in the Bible because it actually condemns Pauline Christianity.

    No wonder many didn’t think it should be in there.

    And oh yeah it’s primarily aimed at Imperial Rome and none of it is futuristic.

    Not one verse of it.

    Please ask me to prove it…..

  • Bones

    Jesus’s kingdom is already here.

    I doubt you’re a part of it. In fact you’re most probably working against it.

  • Bones

    Gay people are already in the kingdom of God.

    You aren’t.

  • liberalinlove

    When you love a country and you want peace, you seek it in just manners. It means holding the unjust accountable. The narrative is always biased based on who you are listening to and why.
    We as former fundamentalist Christians, were told we could not look at anything wrong about Israeli policy. We had to blindly and 100 percent follow what Israel wanted. Are we not all better when we hold the people we love to a high standard of integrity?

    We have all been told about the Palestinian acts of violence. Perhaps linking to Rabbi’s for Peace, or Jews against Zionism for a better rounded out discourse would be helpful to understand why Benjamin Cory has changed his position on blind acceptance.
    I will never stop loving Jewish people. I cried as a child, knowing what had happened to them in Germany. But I love them too much to never question the narrative I am hearing.
    This country, because of Manifest Destiny, treated our Native Americans with such wanton treachery. It is easy to do such when flying under the banner of “Blessed by God.” Many Americans do not understand what our country participates in, choosing to be loyal over informed. I think this may be true for anyone who is patriotic to their own country.
    Peace to you.

  • Andre-Lisa Richards

    Do you know you cannot build a church to start off with, the church was built the day Christ died on the cross, the church is not a building or a ritual activity or tradition, the church is a living breathing organism!! Do you know that scripture teaches that we will be persecuted for our faith!!

  • Bones

    Good work picking Saudi Arabia.

    Nearly every other Muslim country has churches. Iran even has synagogues and Jewish hospitals and members of Parliament.

    I know Christians living in the West Bank and they are not regarded as dehimis neither do they pay jizah.

    In fact they are united in their opposition to Israel.

  • Bones

    Must have to tell my Christian minister friend who was forced out of his house at gunpoint by the IDF and his house given to settlers how wonderful you are to Christians.

  • Bones

    Mordechai Vanunu was converted to Christianity in Sydney, Australia. I worked with a guy who ministered in his church and knew Mordechai.

    It was his Christian conscience which led him to reveal Israel’s nuclear plans and his subsequent kidnapping by Mossad.

  • Lorraine Reeder

    Sorry, but the only “new” Christians live in refugee camps with those who have lived there a full generation. Christians from Jerusalem cannot travel to Bethlehem without a difficult to obtain special permit. The road from Jerusalem to Bethany is blocked by a wall … Please come see

  • e. brrok

    What a ridiculous comments, Israelis obey law. If any miss justice has happened to a minister there are courts in Israel one can refer to. Bringing an individual case in this geopolitical situation by itself is a hypocrisy. If your imaginary Christian minister friend of yours even exists this is his route for justice.

  • e. brrok

    1st I wonder why they are still in refugee camps, 2nd population of Christians in Bethlehem has almost collapsed as it is currently run by the PA Islamic government. Christians are not welcome in any Islamic state including PA. These are facts you can check. Christians in Jerusalem are much safer now from suicide attacks that caused the barrier to come up in the first place. It is better to be inconvenienced than end up blown up i hope you agree. Israel is the only country in the region open to all practicing religions, only in Israel population of christians have increased in all other countries in neighbourhood, christians population has declined substantially or christians in general dissapeared. Israel is a great country for Christians to live in.

  • e. brrok

    Christians might be united outwardly but we all know they wished to live in Israel. Can they be against Hamas lets say and survive in the west bank? It is funny you mention Iran as a place to be a Christian. Do you know apostasy is a capital crime in Iran, Muslims cannot convert to be christians or they get executed, in fact there are few new Christian converts already on the death row in Iran. Jizah was paid in Iran up until 1930 and it can return, it is a fundamental theological Islamic concept. Jewish population in Iran has declined from 140K individuals to less than 20K and they are in danger of new antisemitism. The hospital you are talking about was paid by the Jews of Iran and 99% of its patients are Iranian Muslims. Schools and places of work are forced to open on Jewish Shabbath. Iran is a hostile country to any religion other than shia sect of Islam. They are not even tolerant to other Islamic sects, they are criminally hostiles to Bahaism kill its members without impunity. Do you have another Good natured Islamic state pls other than Iran. Iraq or Syria or Yeman any other?
    The only country where Christians can live safely in the area is Israel.

  • Bones

    Nothing imaginary. I studied with him at seminary for 3 years. He’s ministering in the West Bank. I won’t tell you who he is in case he disappears.

    I remember how angry he was when I went to a JEws for Jesus conference. They basically support the destruction of his home.

  • e. brrok

    Regardless he is a traitor, and he still lives in Israel. In an Islamic state he would have been executed on the spot.

  • Lorraine Reeder

    Facts and Figures

    50 years ago the population in the Holy Land was 25% Christian —
    Today it is about 2% at 160,000.

    Jerusalem Christians totaled 45,000 in 1940 —
    Today they are less than 10,000.

    In Bethlehem during the 1960’s the Population was 80% Christian —
    Today it is less than 10%.

    60,000 Christians used to live in Ramallah in the 1970’s —
    Now there are less than 6000.

    From Christianfoundationholyland.org

    They live in refugee camps because they were farmers and were literally bulldozed out of their homes that were in the family for generations and crops destroyed, or just chased out … So that walls and illegal settlements could be built.

  • e. brrok

    It sounds to me he is politically active minister, still he should refer to courts. If his case is just he will get Justice. In Israel you don’t just disappear. In PA you would. He is being sanctioned because of his political activities not because he is Christian. This is clear now. He might as well been a buddhist from Nepal and would be treated the same.

  • e. brrok

    The reduction in Christian population In PA is mainly due to persecution of christians in these areas, by the Arabs and not Israel,

    Bethlehem, Ramallah are arab cities run by PA. Jerusalem is an expensive city to live in many christians sell up and leave. The population of the christians in Palestinian territories has halved since the year two thousand, from 2% to 1% over the last 13 years. Priest Gabriel Naddaf argues that Israel is the only country in which Christian communities have been able to thrive in the Middle East. Nazareth under Israeli control is thriving city Christians constitute 30% of the population.

    Palestinian refugees are a tool used by the nationalist arab and palestinian government to beat Israel with every one knows this now. No one should be a refugee after 4 generations. If that was the case the whole of Israel should be refugees. Walls and illegal settlements are loaded words, used often by Israel enemies. 90% of the security barrier is in fact fences and is meant to keep the arab suicide killers out of Israeli cities. Legality of the settlements is a matter of legal opinion. Or shall we make the west bank Jew free.

  • Bones

    Why do you like comparing yourself to an Islamic state?

    You are supposed to be a secular democracy.

    Act like one.

  • Bones

    Rubbish, Israel discriminates against ALL Palestinians regardless of religion.

    Israel wants them all out.

    eg

    Archbishop Sebastia Theodosios (Atallah Hanna), 49, is the only Orthodox Christian archbishop from Palestine stationed in Jerusalem and the Holy Land,

    “The Israel authorities treat the Palestinian people in a way we can never accept or approve, first and foremost because Israel treats Palestinians as foreigners, as if we were strangers in our land.

    Palestinians have never been strangers either to Jerusalem or to the entire homeland. Israel is an occupation force which treats us as visitors or some temporary residents. But we are the native people of this land. We didn’t come here, we have always been here. In contrast, Israel appeared out of the blue.

    They are treating us as if we came here from elsewhere, as if we accidentally and recently strayed into this land. But we are the rightful owners of this land. We didn’t intrude into Israel. Israel intruded into our lives in 1948, and in 1967 it occupied Eastern Jerusalem. We have been here long before Israel. By the time Israel came here, our forefathers had been living here for many centuries.

    This is why we cannot accept Israel treating us like strangers to our own homeland. I shall be honest and say it over again: both Christians and Muslims suffer the same from the Israeli authorities.

    We don’t divide the Palestinian people based on who is Christian and who is Muslim, who is religious and who isn’t, who is left or what party they are a member of. We don’t divide the people based on convictions and religion.

    For the resistance it doesn’t matter whether they are Muslim or Christian.

    Regardless of what their political views may be, all Palestinians actively support the idea that the Palestinian people should be able to exercise their rights and achieve their dream.

    Yes, a number Christians have been killed since 1948 to this day. Some Christians have been driven away from their houses. Some Christian villages have been completely destroyed, and now there’s not a single house or resident there, for example, Al Galil in the Golan Heights.

    Many churches have been attacked in Jerusalem; there have been attempts to seize their property and lands.

    There are Christians in Israeli prisons – not as many as Muslims, but there are some. The Christian community is smaller in general, but we have our own martyrs who were killed and prisoners who spent years and years behind bars.

    Christians suffer under the Israeli occupation just the same as Muslims – the entire Palestinian population suffers under it. They don’t distinguish between us.”

    https://www.rt.com/op-edge/227871-palestinian-orthodox-christian-bishop/

    Holy Land: Archbishop arrested during peaceful protest over seizure of church property

    Israeli forces arrested Greek Orthodox Archbishop Atallah Hanna, on Saturday, as he took part in a march protesting over the illegal seizure of a Christian hospital which is part of al-Baraka Presbyterian church complex, north of Hebron.

    A delegation from the Presbyterian church as well as international and Israeli peace activists took part in the march against the sale of the hospital, which provided medical services to Palestinians. The sale is illegal under international and canonical law.

    Last month Israeli newspaper Haaretz leaked details of the seizure of Beit al-Baraka hospital by a Jewish billionaire, the sale having been allegedly made through a fake Norwegian real estate company. Days after the report, the sale process halted, however Israeli Defense Minister, Moshe Ya’alon, subsequently decided that there was no legal impediment to the sale of the building.

    On Saturday, Israeli activists from ‘Fighters for Peace’, who took part in the protest, said Israeli policy should be condemned by all religions.

    Archbishop Hanna has taken part in several campaigns to protect church property from illegal seizures.

    http://www.indcatholicnews.com/news.php?viewStory=27796

  • Bones

    Nah, you don’t need to be an activist to have your house given to settlers….

    Israeli police evict Palestinian family from East Jerusalem home, give property to settlers for new settlement – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/palestinian-jerusalem-settlement#sthash.0QtOHEpM.dpuf

    Hey why did you guys kill Yitzhak Rabin?

  • karl john

    so what?! not everyone is a Christian. why must everyone be COMPELLED to be one?

  • karl john

    uh…..Syria, Iraq, and Egypt! or used to be until we destabilized the Middle East for either EXTREMIST MUSLIMS like the Saudis OR for Big Oil!

  • karl john

    uh…..Egypt(Copts), Iraq & Syria (Orthodox Christians), until we destabilized their countries

  • Bones

    “The hospital you are talking about was paid by the Jews of Iran”

    That shows that you are talking out of your arse….

    Report: Rohani Gives $400,000 to Tehran’s Jewish Hospital

    New York Times’ Tehran bureau chief tweets that the Iranian president has made the donation to the institution, which also serves non-Jews.

    read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/1.572915

  • e. brrok

    This shows you are, this is a donation. Tehran Jewish hospital is paid for by the Jews in Iran. It was established by the Jews in Iran under the Shah many years ago. If you are rude again i will not communicate with you, so pls be civil.

  • e. brrok

    These are the same Jews as biblical Jews, just 2000 years ahead. The land of Israel is give as a covenant to the Jews by God as their inheritance. The state of Israel is there to protect the Jews from oppression and ensure the Jews remain in Israel.

  • e. brrok

    There could be some Palestinians with jewish origin. But 99% of the Arab palestinians are from neighbouring countries such as Jordan and Egypt. The Jewish converts regardless also will inherit the land of Israel. Judaism is a religion not a race.

  • e. brrok

    America Supports Israel because of many reason not any in your above comment. America is hated in Muslim countries because of what USA stands for not because of its support of an ally such as Israel. Do you really think USA will be darling of these arab dictators if Israel disappeared tomorrow. Common!

  • e. brrok

    You are diverting from Christians. They were evicted because the property did not belong to them, they could not prove it for 14 years.
    They were squatters, even though lived there many years.

    Ateret Cohanim, filed a lawsuit alleging that the land where Abu Nab’s property sits had been registered as hekdesh, or Jewish religious property, since 1881 – They won the argument in this case.

    Jerusalem is not a jewish settlement in any case. It is the capital of the state.

  • e. brrok

    These are not worthy but minor issues. Just look at Syria and its Christians, Iraq and Egypt. Over there they don’t argue, they just kill you. Israel is undoubtedly a good place for christians to live in for at least they have legal rights and they stay alive.

  • e. brrok

    Israel is a democracy and is tolerant that is why vanunu is still alive.
    I am not comparing, rather i am showing you the contrast, the differences. Christians are very naive when it comes to Islam you basically know very little and have been indoctrinated to see the religion as tolerant and peaceful, while it is anything but. Israel lives in the neighbourhood, and basically what they are doing and have achieved is a true miracle. Only the blind cannot see.

  • e. brrok

    I thought i answered you about this figures already.

  • Bones

    Lol. You are an apologist for Israel.

    Nothing you say is based on facts.

  • wolfeevolution

    I think you meant to reply to somebody else’s comment, my friend.

  • Bones

    Seems Palestinian Christians disagree with you….

    The Kairos document

    It’s signed by over 3000 Palestinian Christians and is supported by His Beatitude Theophilos III, Greek Orthodox, His Beatitude Patriarch Fouad Twal, Latin Church, His Beatitude Patriarch Torkom Manougian, Armenian Orthodox, Very Revd Father Pierbattista Pizzaballa, Custody of the Holy Land, H.E. Archbishop Dr Anba Abraham, Coptic; H.E. Archbishop Mar Swerios Malki Murad, Syrian Orthodox, H.E. Archbishop Paul Nabil Sayah, Maronite, H.E. Archbishop Abba Mathaious, Ethiopian, H.E. Archbishop Joseph-Jules Zerey, Greek Catholic, Bishop Gregor Peter Malki, Syrian Catholic, Bishop Munib A. Younan, Lutheran, Bishop Suheil Dawani, Anglican, Bishop Raphael Minassian, Armenian Catholic

    “Resistance

    4.2 This word is clear. Love is the commandment of Christ our Lord to us and it includes both friends and enemies. This must be clear when we find ourselves in circumstances where we must resist evil of whatever kind.

    4.2.1 Love is seeing the face of God in every human being. Every person is my brother or my sister. However, seeing the face of God in everyone does not mean accepting evil or aggression on their part. Rather, this love seeks to correct the evil and stop the aggression.

    The aggression against the Palestinian people which is the Israeli occupation, is an evil that must be resisted. It is an evil and a sin that must be resisted and removed. Primary responsibility for this rests with the Palestinians themselves suffering occupation. Christian love invites us to resist it. However, love puts an end to evil by walking in the ways of justice. Responsibility lies also with the international community, because international law regulates relations between peoples today. Finally responsibility lies with the perpetrators of the injustice; they must liberate themselves from the evil that is in them and the injustice they have imposed on others.

    4.2.2 When we review the history of the nations, we see many wars and much resistance to war by war, to violence by violence. The Palestinian people has gone the way of the peoples, particularly in the first stages of its struggle with the Israeli occupation. However, it also engaged in peaceful struggle, especially during the first intifada. We recognize that all peoples must find a new way in their relations with each other and the resolution of their conflicts. The ways of force must give way to the ways of justice. This applies above all to the peoples that are militarily strong, mighty enough to impose their injustice on the weaker.

    4.2.3 We say that our option as Christians in the face of the Israeli occupation is to resist. Resistance is a right and a duty for the Christian. But it is resistance with love as its logic. It is thus a creative resistance for it must find human ways that engage the humanity of the enemy. Seeing the image of God in the face of the enemy means taking up positions in the light of this vision of active resistance to stop the injustice and oblige the perpetrator to end his aggression and thus achieve the desired goal, which is getting back the land, freedom, dignity and independence.

    4.2.4 Christ our Lord has left us an example we must imitate. We must resist evil but he taught us that we cannot resist evil with evil. This is a difficult commandment, particularly when the enemy is determined to impose himself and deny our right to remain here in our land. It is a difficult commandment yet it alone can stand firm in the face of the clear declarations of the occupation authorities that refuse our existence and the many excuses these authorities use to continue imposing occupation upon us.

    4.2.5 Resistance to the evil of occupation is integrated, then, within this Christian love that refuses evil and corrects it. It resists evil in all its forms with methods that enter into the logic of love and draw on all energies to make peace. We can resist through civil disobedience. We do not resist with death but rather through respect of life. We respect and have a high esteem for all those who have given their life for our nation. And we affirm that every citizen must be ready to defend his or her life, freedom and land.

    4.2.6 Palestinian civil organizations, as well as international organizations, NGOs and certain religious institutions call on individuals, companies and states to engage in divestment and in an economic and commercial boycott of everything produced by the occupation. We understand this to integrate the logic of peaceful resistance. These advocacy campaigns must be carried out with courage, openly sincerely proclaiming that their object is not revenge but rather to put an end to the existing evil, liberating both the perpetrators and the victims of injustice. The aim is to free both peoples from extremist positions of the different Israeli governments, bringing both to justice and reconciliation. In this spirit and with this dedication we will eventually reach the longed-for resolution to our problems, as indeed happened in South Africa and with many other liberation movements in the world.

    4.3 Through our love, we will overcome injustices and establish foundations for a new society both for us and for our opponents. Our future and their future are one. Either the cycle of violence that destroys both of us or peace that will benefit both. We call on Israel to give up its injustice towards us, not to twist the truth of reality of the occupation by pretending that it is a battle against terrorism. The roots of “terrorism” are in the human injustice committed and in the evil of the occupation. These must be removed if there be a sincere intention to remove “terrorism”. We call on the people of Israel to be our partners in peace and not in the cycle of interminable violence. Let us resist evil together, the evil of occupation and the infernal cycle of violence.”

  • Bones

    I can see you are an Israeli apologist.

    You would have to be blind to not spot that.

  • Bones

    So occupation, attacking churches and driving Palestinians form their land are minor issues.

    Oh well if you say so.

  • Bones

    Gabriel Naddaf says that Christians aren’t Arab……….that says a lot.

    Why are Christians leaving Palestine?

    The facts – mainly jobs and poor economy due to well I wonder what?

    The Sabeel Survey on Palestinian Christians in The West Bank and Israel

    http://fosna.org/files/fosna/SabeelSurveyPalChristians2006.pdf

  • Lorraine Reeder

    In case you missed reading this in “your” newspaper: ” Christmas has no place in the Holy Land,” he concluded. “Missionary work must not be given a foothold. Let’s throw the vampires out of our land before they drink our blood again.”

    Approximately 160,000 Israeli citizens, or 2 percent of the population, is Christian, and a considerable number of Israel’s foreign tourists are adherents to the faith as well.

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/head-of-extremist-jewish-group-calls-christians-blood-sucking-vampires/

  • e. brrok

    Do you call your self an extremist? if no why do you quote one. There is extremism every where but in Israel they are a tiny minority. However this does not mean i agree with missionary work in Israel, as per recent declaration by vatican Christians should stop trying to convert Jews, and i agree totally with this sentiment. Put your efforts to convert Muslims. That is if you dare.

  • e. brrok

    Excellent article, very fairly outlined.
    I am disappointed about land confiscation in the WB, but need more details to understand what type land and the reasons for it.

    However the article confirms and i quote,

    ” Christians in Israel
    live in a relatively normal economic and political situation marked
    by an advanced economy and stability in the political situation and
    judicial and governmental institutions.”

    While they are being driven out of the WB by religious extremists such as Hamas and similar others.

  • e. brrok

    There are always various views in any democracy, i am offering Christians who have issues with the state institutions in Israel to take up a legal path. Israeli courts are very fair and they do follow justice according to the law. I dont think there is any attacks on churches in Israel, it is a fallacy and not supported by the government or the people. Occupation is a loaded word, the lands conquered in 1967 war are up for negotiation, it is the arabs who refuse to basically settle the issue, have you heard of the three no’s of the arab league, no to peace, no to negotiation and no to recognition. Israel has said many times she does not want to control the palestinians and are looking for mutual recognition. The reason for lack of settlement squarely lies with the palestinians who are not prepared to negotiate at the moment and have refused all comprises offered by the Israelis. So what you are suggesting above is not entirely true.

  • e. brrok

    Where is the apology? It is facts nothing else.

  • e. brrok

    If these people are calling for boycotts i dont really see them as fair minded individuals. In addition i do not think they are talking on behalf of hamas, why dont they discuss justice with hamas. Lets see where they get to. Justice for who then arab palestinian muslims? What sort of Justice the jews will get from the arab palestinians, justice means nothing to Jews without security. There are two sides to the coin. In addition these priest are not really free if they live in WB, i really cannot take any statements from them on its face value. Unfortunately Christians do not understand Muslim mentality, for the the sword talks exclusively among them, and the one who wants to compromise, is the fare game for the rest. This is the reality of the area. In addition these priests seem to try to justify the murder of the innocence, via violent terrorism. I think this is abhorrent. You cannot blame the victim for his persecution and murder. Terrorism cannot be excused.

  • e. brrok

    Merry Christmas and a happy new year. Let us not forget that Jesus and his disciples were all jews.

  • e. brrok

    Merry Christmas and a happy new year. Let us not forget that Jesus and his disciples were all jews. In addition Jesus never refuted his judaism.

  • Bones

    “While they are being driven out of the WB by religious extremists such as Hamas and similar others.”

    That is not what the study says….

    “In general, Christians in the WB, like all other
    Palestinians, suffer from a wide range of Israeli oppressive measures that negatively affect every sphere of life. In Israel, Christians are conducting their lives under relatively normal conditions.” p32

    “For Christians in the WB,Table 16 shows that a sum of 44.7% of the respondents want to leave in order to find work, 42.6% want to leave because of the existing bad economic and political situation, 8.5% want to leave to join their families, and only 4.2% want to leave to
    work and study. This confirms the findings in previous researches concerning the inviting causes of Christian emigration from the Holy Land4” p33

    “However, the other question identified religious extremism as a separate factor causing emigration and thus the results clearly depict its effect. It shows that a sum of 8% of the respondents attributed emigration to religious extremism as reported and discussed in the accompanying article of Dr. Sabella. Although religious extremism counts for a small percentage as a cause of emigration, it cannot be ignored during a time marked with the rising wave of religious extremism in the area.

    Overall, the most inviting reason to emigrate is an economic one. Those who are leaving in order to work and those who are leaving because of the bad economic and political situation represent 87.3% of the total respondents. This is not surprising. The WB economy,
    during the past three decades, has experienced poor performance, absence of economic confidence, and high uncertainty. Therefore, the lack of job security and opportunity, associated with the high cost of living, has pushed many Christians to emigrate in search of a
    better life and economic opportunities.

    Christian emigration is highly influenced by political factors. Considering that the political situation in the area is marked with spiraling conflict and instability, this cannot but be a pressuring and pushing factor encouraging emigration. Israeli drastic measures against the Palestinians affect and touch every sphere of life in a most negative manner. Christians, as Palestinian Arabs, have suffered as a consequence. Many individuals and families voluntarily emigrate in search of freedom and security as well as to ensure income and a secure future for their children” p33-34

  • e. brrok

    Yes situation is very complicated. Israel is a small part of the equation.

  • e. brrok

    Greek Patriarch praises Rivlin for defending minorities and condemning violence.
    http://www.jpost.com/Christian-News/Greek-Patriarch-praises-Rivlin-for-defending-minorities-and-condemning-violence-438644

  • Brian B

    He is a liberal they are more biased then conservatives, you have to understand though he attended a liberal seminary and was brain washed in to liberal group think, the same happened to me I was brain washed in to conservative group think. With that being said, Israel has a right to defend themselves but they do spit on Christians, beat them and do many other things that are wrong. I think Israel needs to work harder towards peace not war but they seem hell bent on tribalism and war, they want to exterminate Arabs Muslim or Christian. Sorry but that land was stolen from the Palestinians so you cannot expect them to not be upset, but they have allowed Terrorists to fight their war and that shouldn’t be supported either, what he fails to mention is how the Muslims persecute Christians there as well and in most Muslim nations Christians are persecuted and killed for being Christians. So I don’t support Israel or Palestine I support the Christians who are stuck in the middle of a war between two fascist ideologies, the Liberal Jewish state and the Conservative Palestinian state.

  • Yana Babich

    I don’t say there are no issues. I’ve spent in Israel eleven great years, and I know. When you say “they spit” on Christians what do you mean? Yes, there is a narrow group of Ultra-Orhtodox Jews that does it – they can spit on another Jew with different beliefs as well. That’s not right, but I’ve heard of Orthodox Christian Greeks in Greece spitting on gays. You can find zealots everywhere. That doesn’t represent the country.
    Please check this: http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Culture/Haifa-celebrates-Holiday-of-Holidays-festival-437258
    Regarding the “stolen land” – please let me disagree, but I am not going to argue with you here.
    Many people think that only Jewish Israelis love Israel; wrong – I’m not Jewish by Halacha, and I will still advocate for Israel.
    Have you heard of the program to support the Palestinian kids suffering from cardio issues – they get treatment for free in Israel.
    Apartheid??

  • Brian B

    Israel doesn’t allow Christians to preach in the streets, to me that’s religious discrimination. My post above was more sarcastic then anything, benny boy has been brainwashed by these radical liberals, sadly the radicals have taken over and brainwashed many good Christians and redefined many words. Anyways these left wing fanatics are just as bad as isis. As for Israel my real stance is, I support the right for them to exist but I don’t agree with some of the policies they have in place.

  • Brian B

    When your a liberal you must lose most of your brain cells. You all think with pure emotion and have no logic in what you say. Things are not and will never be easy and sadly war happens. What you people want is not possible. The way you define love is stupid. Look I don’t care what gays do, but I feel homosexuality is a sin, at the same time I feel we are all sinners. Now most liberals call me a bigot for my stance but I refuse to excuse any sin and if that makes me a bigot so be it, but the one calling people a bigot for disagreeing with them is the real intolerant bigot. Simply put Liberals are the biggest intolerant bigots of all and Conservatives are racist idiots.

  • liberalinlove

    Dear Brian, I pray you find peace and God’s grace. Long time right-wing, Republican voter here, who met the grace of Jesus at the worst time in my life. It changed me into someone who wants to, as the scripture tells us to be, liberal in how I love. I was raised as a Preacher’s Kid in a fundamental home where loving my neighbor was never talked about. I measure the message by the fruit. Jesus bore fruit always. If you raise up Jesus, follow in the footsteps of Jesus and let Jesus be the author and finisher of the faith of others as he is of yours, you will realize that the power of the cross becomes your light on the hill. Be salt, be light.
    The bible talks about speaking out for justice and righteousness over and over again. Hundreds of verses on how we care for the poor, the sick, the disenfranchised. I was really pretty amazed at the conformity in scripture from OT to NT about the message of loving our neighbor as ourselves.
    Before I began my journey I pretty much repeated what I’d heard and what other like-minded people told me to say. Then I began to fact check certain things. I realized that bearing false witness was a grave sin. But I also saw such rotten fruit, not that of the sweet aroma of Jesus coming from those who thought they were being faithful to God, but just lacked the basic ideals of loving others as Jesus did and preached. Don’t lean on your own understanding. Invite Jesus to lead you. He will.

  • Bones

    I take it you agree with the Bible on accepting immigrants and caring for the poor.

  • Darnay 1177

    Good list, but the “Christians” you mention in #1 are either Catholics or some other “I believe in one god” sect. When we hear about “Christians” being persecuted in the Middle East, we tend to think of them as the Baptist variety, but not so. Most have different belief systems. Research for yourself. Interestingly, in the USA, Protestants, Mormons, JWs, Roman Catholics, SDAs, etc all sit under the “Christian” banner. That’s why labeling one’s self a “Christian” is nothing to brag about.

  • Patrick

    Pray for the peaceful dismantlement of the zionist state that arrogantly refers to itself as Israel. This apartheid cult does not represent Jewish people or their religion.

  • Stephen Lambert

    Do you know you are talking pure BS. I am a Christian living in a Muslim state and if most Christians I know had even a drop of the true meaning of Christianity in their blood as my Muslim friends have there would be no problems in the Middle East.

  • Stephen Lambert

    I am a Christian and even if I did want to live in Palestine I would go there as a guest of the Palestinian people and not as an occupier and persecutor, in fact as a Christian I could not be either of those nor support ANYBODY of any religion who was.

  • Stephen Lambert

    And the Jews killed him for it!

  • Stephen Lambert

    Check your “facts” again. a third of all Palestinians are Chrstian and they have suffered equally as their fellow Muslim Palestinians under Israeli terrorism and occupation. Read a bit of history before posting any more BS on this or any other site.

  • Stephen Lambert

    Brok, do you know any Muslims or what they actually believe other than the propaganda you have been fed? Do you know they do not consider Jesus was the son of God but the do believe he was the greatest prophet before Mohammed? Do you know the only woman considered a saint and named in the Qua ram is Mary the mother of Jesus? Like I said before, go and read a bit of real facts and not the fundamentalist, Zionist “Christian” BS you obviously have been sucked into. In this age of the internet, there is no excuse for ignorance!

  • Stephen Lambert

    ther you go again Brok……. talking pure brock (brock being an Irish word for BS)……. a third of Palestinians living under Israeli Zionist occupation are Christians….. put if another way…….. a third of the people murdered in the summer of 2014 by your Israeli friends were Palestinian Christians!

  • Stephen Lambert

    The illegality of the “settlements” is not a matter of legal opinion. they are illegal, built of occupied land, illegal under UN and international law, end of.

  • Stephen Lambert

    It is not complicated at all, only for you and your contorted Zionist arguments and Israeli occupation is the whole of the of the equation.

  • Stephen Lambert

    Syria, was one of the best societies for Christians until outside powers took it upon themselves to smash the country to pieces and create the nightmare it has become for all Syrians……… not forgetting that the US had a considerable part to play in creating the mess as they did in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and any other state that it considers to be a “threat” to it’s Zionist master.

  • Stephen Lambert

    “I don’t think there is any attacks on churches in Israel,”.. As I said before, ignorance in this day and age is not excusable…. google “attacks on Christian churches in Israel” and see what you find.

  • Stephen Lambert

    “Sanctioned because of his political activities”…….. beautiful…. and this in the only “democracy” in the Middle East. Thank you for that statement, it clearly shows where you and the Israeli terrorist state stand on democracy….

  • Stephen Lambert

    How come a few comments ago he was and imaginary minister and now you are an expert on the case in that you say it was probably because of his political activities and now you seem to know who the house really belonged to…… I think you just make it up as you go along to suit your twisted narrative………

  • Stephen Lambert

    Only one reply to that……. BDS, BDS, BDS and you are the reason for it! You are an apologist for murder, theft and injustice, nothing more, nothing less.

  • e. brrok

    Common Stephen don’t try to convince me Christians are living well in Islamic countries. There are just too much evidence against this argument. Muslims accepts no other religion as equal, it is their theology handed down to them. There are some good muslims who let you live your life as a christian but vast majority despise you. As a matter of interest where do you live?

  • e. brrok

    Are you a rebel extremist? People like you are very narrow minded. Many end up as suicide bombers. You must be a muslim or heavily influenced by them.

  • e. brrok

    Romans killed him, crucifixion is not a jewish method of execution it is however a roman method. Even if they killed him which I doubt it, they killed one of their own another Jew. Christianity was not around for another two hundred or so years. By the way i have no time for antisemites.

  • e. brrok

    You should check yours. First check how many christians there are in the area. You are obviously heavily brain washed and need some education.

  • e. brrok

    Lamy i know many muslims and i lived among them for many years. What i learned is you just don’t turn you back to them in case they back stab you. Islamic theology is very clear towards christians and jews. They are treated as Dihimis who must pay a fine called jizah to be left to live in an islamic country and not murdered, their testimony is half of that of a muslim in a sharia court even if the other muslim is the local dustbin man, they cannot build churches or live in a building built taller and above a muslim house. There are many others degrading laws meant to break the christians to submit and convert to Islam. Just look at ISIS a true Islamic state. Where are the christian woman in their areas ? in the brothels. This is what your friends are doing.

  • e. brrok

    I have clearly explained the situation above. You should read it.

  • e. brrok

    You don’t know your numbers Lamy, there are a total of less than two thousand Christians living in Gaza, vast majority scared for their lives, not from israelis but from Islamists in Gaza. There is over 1 million arab muslims in Gaza. So Christian population is hardly 30% !!!! . I dont like you to look an idiot but you should go and speak to your handler muslim who has taught you all this nonsense you are being brain washed and groomed for conversion to the death cult. You are very close i can see.

  • e. brrok

    Typical idiot. so it is all the fault of the west and the zionist. Asad and Gaddafy and Saddam were the god ‘s angels descended to save their countries. You and people like you should be ashamed of yourself after what is happening in Syria’s killing fields by the Iranians and now the Russians. Or maybe it is the zionist who brought these two in.

  • e. brrok

    I have given you a good reply above. nothing extra to add.

  • e. brrok

    Israel is a country of its people. These people are the jews. When people like you call Israel names as you are, they are calling its jewish population names. If you are comfortable with this explanation and are still calling Israelis who are the largest victims of Arab terrorism as terrorist then you are an antisemite. You don’t like Jews regardless of what Israel does or does not.
    Do you accept you are an anti semite.

  • e. brrok

    And you are a simpleton brained washed idiot.

  • jim

    the Bible say’s many will come in my name I believe he is one of them that is my Opinion not a judgement

  • Normad

    God made a covenant, and God never changes. Man can not change it. Man can make up a name for a group of nomads and try to lay claim to a land that belongs to Israel, but it won’t work. They can support terrorist bombings and dance in the street when an Israeli dies, but it will change nothing. There will be judgement soon and Gaza will be obliterated and those that came against Israel will all be dead. Those that speak lies and post fake propaganda photos and articles like the one above will have to answer to God. God instructs his followers to support Israel and the Jewish people. Do not take instructions from the misinformed followers of Satan, take instructions from God. They are in the Bible and they are very clear.

  • Wesley Sandel

    150,000 of those one million defenseless, native Palestinians ethnically cleansed at gunpoint by the Israelis were Christians.

  • Wesley Sandel

    I spoke with god just this morning and she told me that you are really full of racist codswallop.

  • Wesley Sandel

    Coincidentally, the only Jewish state is also the only apartheid state. There are only two states in the world with anti-miscegenation laws: Israel and Saudi Arabia. Israel has murdered more than 2000 Palestinian children in the last fifteen years alone. And this is something you claim to love.

  • Wesley Sandel

    Yes, as a libtard he was actually raised to believe that racism, terrorism, colonialism, mass murder and apartheid are wrong and evil. As a conservative you embrace Israeli racism, terrorism, colonialism, mass murder and apartheid.

  • Wesley Sandel

    Israel is a racist, apartheid state created by European Jews through savage terrorism and ethnic cleansing, and every human rights organization in the world that monitors the conflict reports that Israel is using the fourth or fifth most powerful military in the world to subject the defenseless, native Palestinian people to systematic, violent racist oppression daily. There are five million registered Christian and Muslim refugees from Israeli racist terror and ethnic cleansing campaigns.

  • JoseAmerica

    Please note that there is a distinction to be made between supporting “Israel” and supporting the Netanyahu administration. Netanyahu is a controversial figure even in his own nation, and one can support the right of Israel to exist as a secular, free state, and still be horrified at what the current administration has done to the Palestinian people.

  • gwengz

    It is certainly good that Palestinian children get treatment for their cardio conditions. But what I wonder is this: Why is this an anomaly? Of course they should get treatment. Palestinians are a part of the country, too. The fact that one would think that they shouldn’t get treatment points out the discrimination that is at the heart of the Israel/Palestine reality. Israelis and Palestinians are NOT treated equally. And this certainly raises serious questions about what Israel (and much of the USA) calls a democracy!

  • Angel Dunne

    So Jesus didn’t say…..Oh Israel you who kill all the prophets?
    Did he say OH Romans you who kill all the prophets?

  • Mo Anwar

    Israel as a state has made public their intentions to expand unabated, google ‘greater Israel’. Your claim about wanting peace is farse.
    as a state, they have violated about 80 UN conventions and everytime was vetoed by your united states.
    in particular, UN resolution 242 deemed the land captured in 1967 as illegal. contrary to what Israel says, they were not attacked by three arab nations, quite the contrary actually.
    if Israel wants peace, they can start by moving back to original partion lines. they can tear down the wall, let Palestinians have some fukin water, move freely, stop the night raids, the detention of minors.
    if someone comes up to me and invades my personal space and claim they are my master and own my house, that person can expect a swift punch to the face. call me violent if you want but that is what you would too… if you had the courage to stand up for yourself.

  • Toby

    Why bother answering the Jew haters. They are ignorant and will not give up their hatred of Jews no matter what you say.
    Too bad they can’t move to Pallywood.

  • Toby

    Jews for Jesus has nothing to do with Jews. It’s used to convert Jews.

  • Toby

    You need to see a professional mental health specialist.

  • Toby

    You should join Stephen in seeking help from a mental health practitioner

  • Bones

    Huh?

  • Pete Ross

    Go back to Mecca.

  • Yana Babich

    One fatality, seriously? And you know why? And don’t even dare to talk to me about Holocaust, Duke’s friend.

  • Yana Babich

    How many children have been murdered in Syria for the last four years?

  • Yana Babich

    I am not sure I get you. My statement was about Palestinian children, not about Arab citizens of Israel.
    Of course, all Israeli citizens should be treated equally. But how come Palestinians are the part of the country?

  • Wesley Sandel

    Right, a civil war in Syria justifies Israeli racism, terrorism, colonialism, mass murder and apartheid. It’s that “special” zionist logic.

  • Yana Babich

    You do not know me, my family’s history well enough to state that my claim is farce.
    These minors attack civilians with knives; even if Israel stops the night raids, etc., these attacks will continue. I am sorry, but when I hear that a 13-year-old girl was stabbed to death in her bed by a Palestinian teen, I don’t care about the reasons why he did so. Is this what you call a swift punch to the face?
    And oh, yeah, have you heard of The Khartoum Resolution? September 1, 1967 – “no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it..”

  • Yana Babich

    I didn’t say it justifies anything. But what Israel does is far, far away from “muss murder and apartheid”. My comment was about many Muslims and non-Muslims being murdered in Syria, Iraq, Libya every year. And I don’t see any rallies condemning it. Israel has not intentionally killed Palestinian children as you claim. Ask Hamas why they died.

    BTW, I am not Jewish, so technically I cannot be named a “zionist”.

  • Darryl

    Pretty one sided there “Dr”. I myself do not stand with Israel, but I also do not stand with Palestine. It is also laughable that you refer to Palestine as living under Aparteid. As a South African, I do not think you fully understand what this means.

  • Normad

    Being a Jew and following Biblical teachings are not one and the same. The Bible is very specific on the matter and it is not up for debate.

  • Watchman on the Wall

    That was an intelligent reply

  • Watchman on the Wall

    funny…….NOT

  • Watchman on the Wall

    Lets not talk about how all of those “UN” conventions were rules put in place by predominantly muslim countries who can’t stand Israel and would love to commit genocide.

  • Bones

    That’s how Desmond Tutu has described it.

    Desmond Tutu: Israel guilty of apartheid in treatment of Palestinians
    http://m.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/Desmond-Tutu-Israel-guilty-of-apartheid-in-treatment-of-Palestinians-344874#article=0RjRBRTMzQTEzMjJBNEY5NDA0MzRDNTY0MEU1NkEyQTY=

  • Wesley Sandel

    But…………..TRUE

  • Wesley Sandel

    The Palestinians have no and never have had an army, a navy or an air force while the Israelis have the fourth or fifth most powerful military in the world which they use almost exclusively to subject the defenseless, native Palestinian people to systematic, violent racist oppression daily. Israel has murdered more than 90,000 Palestinians in the conflict, the vast majority of the victims civilians, and more than 2000 Palestinian children in the last fifteen years alone. But you’d like us to believe that when an Israeli soldier with a sniper rifle shoots a Palestinian child (it happens frequently) that is was “unintentional.” Sure, just like when zionists were conducting a decade-long campaign of savage terrorism, blowing up bombs in crowded buses, markets and cafes, it was “not terrorism,” and when Israelis conducted two ethnic cleansing campaigns to force one million defenseless Palestinian fathers, mothers and children from their homes in Israel at gunpoint, executing those who couldn’t or wouldn’t flee, raping women and then systematically destroying 400 Palestinian towns and villages it was “unintentional and not racism, mass murder and ethnic cleansing.”

    You can try to turn it into something else, but no one sane and intelligent is going to buy into that line of racist baloney.

  • Tim Cooper

    Ah, the beautiful sound of bagpipes.

  • Christie Brink

    I am also South African and have visited and worked in Palestine numerous times. There I experienced a system of apartheid that is far, far worse than the one I saw growing up. The restriction of movement imposed by the Israeli soldiers and the countless checkpoints, plus the unequal laws, violent responses to peaceful demonstrations (I am 56 and have been teargassed, brutally shoved and had a dog set on me), demolitions of homes, schools and villages, water restrictions, arbitrary imprisonment even for children, segregated roads, protection of illegal settlers who mistreat Palestinians, destruction of agriculture and many other impediments to livelihoods (I could go on and on) all make for an evil apartheid system. The illegal Israeli settlements have an abundance of water piped in, and have sprinkler systems for their flowers, while Palestinians need to buy water for their rooftop tanks (which is sometimes denied), and often tanks are shot at by Israeli soldiers, or confiscated like recently happened in the Jordan Valley. There are segregated roads and different laws for different people. In Hebron Palestinians are assigned numbers they must use to go through checkpoints. Since I was living and driving with Palestinians I was subjected to their laws. A trip from Bethlehem to Nablus would have taken us a third of the time on the Israeli-only road, but we were prohibited from using it. Did you ever see a whites-only road in South Africa? Additionally, many black South Africans who have visited Palestine have said it is far worse then the apartheid system they experienced. I would like to respectfully suggest you spend time in the West Bank before making assumptions.

  • Christie Brink

    I do not think I like your God. My God is a God of love and inclusion. My God is also not a realtor, nor a racist and does not have favorites. My God would not want to “obliterate” his/her creation in Gaza, little children included. My God would want to see everyone treated equally and fairly. My God wants to spread the love.
    Your God is just plain mean.

  • alRassooli

    Wesley
    You and any so called Christians who supports the MYTHICAL palestinians are doing so NOT because they believe in Jesus or Right & Wrong

    We are told that palestinians deserve their state. Agreed; but somehow, the same so called Christians who make such statements very conveniently ignore the FACT that in 1947 there was a TWO STATES solution that the Arabs REFUSED thinking they could finish the EXTERMINATION process started by their mentor Hitler but they LOST

    Corey speaks of Oppression of Christians in Israel; please give us proof while not even mentioning the FACT that Christians under BOTH Hamas & PA are treated like DHIMMIS whose numbers have evaporated from being significant to now NEGLIGIBLE

    Is it because of Persecution that the new generation of young Christian men & women are asserting their Israeli roots by declaring “We are NOT Christian Arabs; we are Christian Israelis” and are volunteering to the IDF?

    How come you so called Christians always demonize Israel but not the true OPPRESSORS and exterminators of Christians in Egypt, Iraq, Syria, North Africa, Asia? Only Israel, the sole democracy between the Atlantic to the Indian Ocean?

    The Jews did not OCCUPY Israel. The Jews returned to the land of their birth because YOU so called Christians have been for 1700 years Oppressing, plundering, murdering, raping, dispossessing, exiling and finally EXTERMINATING them in Europe because according to you “they are NOT European and Jews GO HOME”

    All your attempts to excuse your Irrational HATRED of Israel are utterly hypocritical and useless when put in their historical context

    As I am typing this rebuttal, the Europeans who were so ‘brave’ at collecting defenseless law abiding Jews to send them to be exterminated are now scared like little mice vis a vis a more aggressive entity: Muslims

    Let us wait for the next JIHAD attack slaughtering hundreds or maybe even thousands of Europeans by the very Muslims you are chamioning

    IQ al Rassooli
    Kafir & Proud!

  • Darryl

    Thank you for the explanation. I retract my statement in regards to the apartheid aspect. However, my comments due to siding with neither remains. They are both extremely sinful in their actions towards each other.

  • Terri Knoll

    how is resisting a brutal occupation sinful?

  • Terri Knoll

    the only way “Israel” has a right to exist is if equal rights are given to all, the walls come down, Gaza is freed, recompense to displaced Palestinians and new homes in the beautiful settlements for Palestinians. If people in “Israel” don’t like that, they can go back to Europe.

  • Terri Knoll

    why don’t you try talking to some Palestinian Christians so you can quit spewing lies about them.

  • Terri Knoll

    the covenant was contingent on them serving Him. they still to this day turn their back on God. they deserve nothing but punishment the rest of us sinners deserve. https://benirwin.me/2014/07/11/evangelicals-equating-modern-israel-with-israel-of-the-bible/

  • Terri Knoll

    He is a paid propaganda troll

  • alRassooli

    Actually I DID just this on my investigative trip to Israel in May!

    This exactly WHY I put in my comment. Why don’t you Google ‘Gabriel Nadaf’ and get enlightened?

    Thank you for reminding me

    IQ al Rassooli

    Kafir & Proud!

  • Terri Knoll

    Fr. Gabriel is a paid propaganda troll. Ask any Palestinian Christian about him.

  • Wesley Sandel

    Right, you don’t even have the courage to use your real name or the class to acknowledge your victims. Israel was created when European Jews colonized Palestine, a land that had been overwhelmingly non-Jewish for two thousand years, through savage terrorism, blowing up bombs in crowded buses, markets and cafes, and two ethnic cleansing campaigns in which Jews forced one million defenseless, native Palestinian fathers, mothers and children from their homes in Israel and into refugee camps at gunpoint, executing those who couldn’t or wouldn’t flee, raping women, and then systematically destroying 400 Palestinian towns and villages – all for the sole reason that the refugees were non-Jews.

    That’s Jewish racism, Jewish terrorism, Jewish mass murder and Jewish colonialism. Welcome to the real world, racist. Would you like another slice of reality pie?

  • Joshua Elie Blachier

    Gabriel Nadaf has been chastised by his own Church, the Orthodox Church of Jerusalem. He’s a sellout troll who only proves that you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about, he openly advocates for Israel to draft Christians, Christians who belong to his very Church – a Church that while telling their faithful to be obedient to a state’s draft if instituted – opposes their people being drafted in the first place; especially for a nation of heretics or pagans.

    Fr. Nadaf is a stain for most of us Orthodox, the fact you brought him up will only invigorate our opposition, not help your image.

  • MuhdSufian

    Orthodox Christian should not support Israel – The Zionist Regime….as they are CANCER to all humanity, environment & etc http://www.thehypertexts.com/Israeli%20Prime%20Ministers%20Terrorists%20Nakba.htm

  • Bones

    Jews for Jesus has at it’s heart a Dispensationalist theology which is that Jesus will return when all the Jews return to Israel.

    They are Christian Zionists.

    http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/sizer-stephen_01.html

  • JoseAmerica

    I agree with everything except the last sentence.

  • Those are some very good points. Being anti-Obama and/or anti-Bush doesn’t make one anti-American, and being anti-Netanyahu doesn’t make one anti-semitic.

  • Michael

    very powerful and eloquent! it takes courage to post stuff like this! someday it probably will be considered a hate crime!

    May God bless and protect you!

    Amen.

  • Michael

    I am a Jewish believer who lived as an Orthodox Jew for many years in Israel before being led to the Lord by South African missionaries. I have written a lot about this on my blog: http://www.4shared.com/web/preview/pdf/xsp-qXkTba

  • Michael

    check out here what uber Zionist John Hagee says to disparage Jewish believers in Christ: http://www.4shared.com/web/preview/pdf/SPHPSZgIce.

    See pages 276-277 in the scan from this book:
    https://www.amazon.com/Allies-Armageddon-Rise-Christian-Zionism/dp/0300116985/ref=la_B001IODPFE_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1470840128&sr=1-1

  • Michael

    This is my Testimony of my journey from secular American Judaism to Israeli Orthodoxy to Christianity: http://www.4shared.com/web/preview/pdf/ePm5DQAoce.

  • Michael

    Every Jew is at heart a matchmaker, seeking to help his fellow man fall in love with his Creator &become part of the Bride of his Savior Yeshua! This is what is missing from Israel. But I encourage you to check out this Israeli Messianic ministry that ministers to Jews and Arabs equally:
    https://www.oneforisrael.org/
    https://www.oneforisrael.org/category/video/jewish-testimonies-i-met-messiah/

  • Michael

    A number of Israelis, including Orthodox Jews, are recognizing that the majority of the PALS are ethnic Judeans:
    http://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Features/The-lost-Palestinian-Jews
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsvi_Misinai
    http://the-engagement.org/?page_id=16
    https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbm=vid&q=tzvi+misinai

    This is actually a tragic civil war. And Christians should not be taking one side against the other.

    It is important to remember that Israel is the ONLY country in the world whose official religious ideology deems Jesus a satanic impostor deceiver and sorcerer who deserved to die. Surely they cannot be expected to enjoy God’s blessings with such an attitude!

    And while Christians must not hate Israelis or Jews, we must minister to them the Truth about Jesus.

    Amen.

  • Michael

    If you doubt Jewish antipathy to Jesus, check out the letter to Yemen of Maimonides, considered the greatest of all Jewish philosophers and sages: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Epistle_to_Yemen/Complete

    Look at pages iii, iv, xvii to see his harsh and brutal disparagement of Jesus and mockery of his death.

  • Michael

    A number of Israelis, including Orthodox Jews, are recognizing that the majority of the PALS are ethnic Judeans:
    http://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Features/The-lost-Palestinian-Jews
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsvi_Misinai
    http://the-engagement.org/?page_id=16
    https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbm=vid&q=tzvi+misinai

    This is actually a tragic civil war. And Christians should not be taking one side against the other.

    It is important to remember that Israel is the ONLY country in the world whose official religious ideology deems Jesus a satanic impostor deceiver and sorcerer who deserved to die. Surely they cannot be expected to enjoy God’s blessings with such an attitude!

    And while Christians must not hate Israelis or Jews, we must minister to them the Truth about Jesus.

    Amen.

  • Michael

    If you doubt Jewish antipathy to Jesus, check out the letter to Yemen of Maimonides, considered the greatest of all Jewish philosophers and sages: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Epistle_to_Yemen/Complete

    Look at pages iii, iv, xvii to see his harsh and brutal disparagement of Jesus and mockery of his death.

  • Michael

    http://www.boulderweekly.com/news/report-shows-increase-of-anti-semitism-in-co/#comment-2828879139 these are some comments I submitted to the Boulder Weekly about their article on anti Semitism in Colorado. One Jewish group in Boulder has threatened to sue me for making this assessment. So much for freedom of speech when it threatens Jewish elites….

  • Michael
  • Michael

    Americans are particularly vulnerable to being seduced by Israeli genocide of Palestnians. This is because of America’s own deplorable history of genociding the American Indians, as I write about here: http://www.4shared.com/web/preview/pdf/LkVQlh-vba

  • Michael

    Abraham Lincoln was one of the worst abusers of Indians. In his zeal to promote railroad expansion, he allowed the companies to abrogate solemns treaties with the Indians in order to sieze their land for railroads and mining operations. He was unwilling to pay for rights of access.

    I believe many Americans are relieved about Israeli genocidal policies, since it eases their guilt about what we did to the Indians.

  • Michael

    Comment by Messianic leader in South Africa about anti Semitism and Jewish paranoia:

    The Torah commanded that the people of Israel listen to the Prophet like Moses whom the Lord would send – and he, the prophet like Moses, the mediator of a covenant between God and Israel, is of course Jesus Christ.

    So, to reject Jesus is also to completely reject the Torah and rebel against its requirements.

    And the consequence of rebellion, unfaithfulness and disobedience, for those who claim to be yoked to the Torah, is clearly stated in the Torah – which is most likely the explanation of a very unique anxiety disorder among those claiming to be Jews – they would be scattered throughout the world:

    If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name —the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess. 64 Then the Lord will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods—gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your ancestors have known. 65 Among those nations you will find no repose, no resting place for the sole of your foot. There the Lord will give you an anxious mind, eyes weary with longing, and a despairing heart. 66 You will live in constant suspense, filled with dread both night and day, never sure of your life. 67 In the morning you will say, “If only it were evening!” and in the evening, “If only it were morning!”—because of the terror that will fill your hearts and the sights that your eyes will see (Deuteronomy 28:58-67).

    And, the most likely explanation of an otherwise strange and uncalled for phenomena of people being anti-Jewish is also found in the Law – and also as the result of Israel’s unfaithfulness and rebellion against the Torah and against the Messiah:

    You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the Lord will drive you (Deuteronomy 28:37) .

  • Michael

    It also is important to remember, if Christians wish to support Israel based on biblical injunctions, today the only people really living according to the biblical model of farming and tending the land are the Palestinians!

    The Israelis are mostly into high tech and the Tree of Knowledge. They also have advanced programs in biowarfare under contract with the Pentagon.

    Israel is a slick silicon valley totally removed from its biblical origins and model as an agricultural society.

    Only the Palestinians tend the land. That is why they weep when the IDF callously uproots and destroys olive trees, something prohibited in the Torah by the way.

    American support for Israel is largely undiscerning and uninformed based on false romantic notions, guilt over the Holocaust, and a yearning for more infidels to slaughter now that the American Indians have been destroyed.

    America is a violent and rebellious society for whom Israel is just good macho entertainment.

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    Have you heard about Tisha b,av, where Israelis plant trees everywhere? Or how Israel is a world leader in re-forestation, why the pre-67 armistice was called “the green line”, because the Israeli side was green, and the Arab side was brown (literally). When the Kfar Ezion block was over-run in 1948, the arabs uprooted hundreds of thousands of trees the Jewish inhabitants had planted there. Re wildlife, pre Israel, ibex and gazelle were facing extinction, now they are back in their thousands.

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    what a hateful, unchristian comment

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    when it involves stabbing babies to death, stabbing sleeping teenage girls to death, etc etc etc.

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    Tu B’Shevat!, not Tisha b’av!!! I am too tired to do this!

  • Bones

    My Palestinian minister friend was forced out of his house by gunpoint by the IDF.

    His house was then bulldozed and the land given to Israeli settlers.

    He is now the minister at Ramallah.

  • Bones

    Just on water

    The Bidu-Qatanna village bloc, in Ramallah District, suffers from a severe water shortage, as do many other areas in the Occupied Territories . Mekorot, the Israeli water company, supplies only one-half of the water consumed by the 50,000 villagers of this area. To meet the rest of their water needs, the villagers have to buy water from private suppliers at a much higher price and store it in unsanitary conditions. As a result, the residents are forced to consume poor-quality water and use it in small quantities. Meanwhile, the 3,000 settlers in the nearby settlement of Har Adar receive an unlimited amount of water, which comes from the same reservoir. (September 2007). http://www.btselem.org

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt59LVx5oIg

  • Bones

    And on trees

    The Christian family refusing to give up its Bethlehem hill farm

    A Palestinian Christian family that preaches non-violence from a farm in the West Bank is battling to hold on to land it has owned for 98 years. Now surrounded by Israeli settlements, the family is a living example of the idea of peaceful resistance.

    On his farm outside Bethlehem, Daher Nassar is picking apples from the ruins of the orchard he planted at least eight years ago. The fruit is scattered across ground freshly opened and imprinted with the tracks of a bulldozer. At the field’s edge, branches reach out from inside a mound of earth, the bark stripped and mangled, unripe almonds still clinging to the trees.
    On 19 May a Palestinian shepherd from the village of Nahalin was out at first light and saw the bulldozer at work in the field, guarded by Israeli soldiers. By the time Nassar arrived the whole orchard – the best part of a decade’s work – was gone. His English is far from fluent, but there’s no mistaking the pain in his voice: “Why you broke the trees?”

    A spokesperson for the Israeli military authorities in the West Bank said the trees were planted illegally on state land.
    Nassar’s sister, Amal, has a different explanation. The government, together with the Israeli settlers who live around the farm, is “trying to push us to violence or push us to leave,” she says. Amal insists that her family will not move from the land, nor will they abandon their commitment to peaceful resistance.
    “Nobody can force us to hate,” she says. “We refuse to be enemies.”

    As they watched the settlements rise around them in the 1980s, the Nassars began to worry. Their farm was in a prime location, close to the main north-south road through the West Bank and on high ground.

    In 1991 their fears were confirmed. The military authorities declared that more than 90% of the farm now belonged to the State of Israel. Gush Etzion, one of the biggest settlement blocks in the West Bank, looked set to expand on to the Nassar farm.
    The Nassars, though, refused to leave, or to see the land divided. And virtually alone among Palestinian farmers, they had the documents they needed to launch an appeal in the Israeli courts.

    The way Amal sees it, the Israeli military and the settlers, having failed to evict the family by legal means, are now trying to force them out. She remembers the settlers who uprooted 250 young olive trees in 2002, and who permanently closed the road to the farm with rubble. The demolition orders posted on the gate, threatening to destroy the Nassars’ home and water wells. The soldiers who, in 2009, forced her 72-year-old mother out of bed at gunpoint in the middle of the night and made her wait in the cold while they searched the farm.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27883685

  • Michael

    They plant everywhere except in Arab villages.

    Imagine if Israel had used the TEN BILLION DOLLARS it has spent on the apartheid wall to invest in Palestinian infrastructure?!

    The problem is that Israel’s racist ideology prevents it from implementing the simplest and fairest solution; to annex all the territories and to EXTEND TO EVERYONE equal rights and citizenship.

    This was the vision of moderate Zionists: a binational state like Lebanon. This was the hope of Yehuda Magness who founded Hebrew University.

    The Zionist terror factions tried to kill such a dream but it wont go away.

    Arabs are not like American Indians. They have much more cultural pride and tenacity. And they honor the land of the Holy Land.

    Israelis plant trees to serve as window dressing.

    Arabs plant them to farm them and to live among them.

    Yes, Jewish technology is wonderful. But its fruits are extended only to a limited group while an almost equal number sink into poverty despair and ruin.

    Read the books by Anna Baltzer to see what life is like for the Palestinians.

  • Michael

    They plant everywhere except in Arab villages.

    Imagine if Israel had used the TEN BILLION DOLLARS it has spent on the apartheid wall to invest in Palestinian infrastructure?!

    The problem is that Israel’s racist ideology prevents it from implementing the simplest and fairest solution; to annex all the territories and to EXTEND TO EVERYONE equal rights and citizenship.

    This was the vision of moderate Zionists: a binational state like Lebanon. This was the hope of Yehuda Magness who founded Hebrew University.

    The Zionist terror factions tried to kill such a dream but it wont go away.

    Arabs are not like American Indians. They have much more cultural pride and tenacity. And they honor the land of the Holy Land.

    Israelis plant trees to serve as window dressing.

    Arabs plant them to farm them and to live among them.

    Yes, Jewish technology is wonderful. But its fruits are extended only to a limited group while an almost equal number sink into poverty despair and ruin.

    Read the books by Anna Baltzer to see what life is like for the Palestinians:
    http://www.annainthemiddleeast.com/
    http://www.annainthemiddleeast.com/aboutanna.html
    https://www.amazon.com/Witness-Palestine-American-Occupied-Territories/dp/1594513074

  • Michael
  • Michael

    If you have time, read my Testimonial to see my experiences in Israel:
    http://www.4shared.com/web/preview/pdf/ePm5DQAoce

    I was actually deferred from the IDF for harboring extreme anti-Arab views, typical of the Orthodox sect to which I belonged!

    Thank God Jesus changed my heart!

  • SDMommyie

    Thank you! I am sharing on my Facebook page! And any time on other relevant posts I find in future. thank you thank you!

  • SDMommyie

    high tech poison!!! what renders this deficit besides weapons…..PHARMACEUTICALS…… you know the vaccines they are pushing so hard to make mandatory forced even on adults…..forget how awful it is for tiny children bodies to absorb these horrid chemicals….. http://www.globalresearch.ca/bilateral-us-israel-free-trade-agreement-delivers-144-billion-deficit-to-us/5524849

  • SDMommyie
  • SDMommyie
  • SDMommyie
  • SDMommyie

    WHO IS KILLING THESE PROBLEM SOLVERS who do not use WALL STREET PATENTED medicine?????
    http://www.healthnutnews.com/recap-on-my-unintended-series-the-holistic-doctor-deaths/

  • SDMommyie

    vaccines are not necessary…..in fact by taking olive leaf at first sign of illness you accomplish DOUBLE what a vaccine does…..immunity plus KILL virus…..vaccines do not kill future vaccines for you.
    http://www.theherbprof.com/blog/?p=27

  • SDMommyie

    ISRAEL MADE SURE TO KILL OFF MILLIONS of palestinian olive trees……hmmmmmmm

    https://electronicintifada.net/content/heritage-uprooted/7126

  • SDMommyie

    WHO IS KILLING THESE PROBLEM SOLVERS who do not use WALL STREET PATENTED medicine?????
    http://www.healthnutnews.com/recap-on-my-unintended-series-the-holistic-doctor-deaths/

  • SDMommyie

    YOU CANNOT PATENT A NATURAL TREE MADE BY GOD.
    therefore olive leaf medicine is not used.

  • SDMommyie

    YOU CANNOT PATENT A NATURAL TREE MADE BY GOD.
    therefore olive leaf medicine is not used.
    Revelation 22:2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
    SO UNETHICAL …..such conflict of interest. DISGUSTING TALMUD FOLLOWING MURDERER
    http://www.ageofautism.com/2012/05/penn-prof-paul-offit-to-gw-grad-student-get-the-fck-out-of-here-piece-of-sht.html

  • SDMommyie
  • SDMommyie

    Israel Hebrew website says that the total annual profits garnered from white slavery in Israel have reached the US $1 Billion Dollar mark. (2005)
    10,000 Eastern European and Russian girls are lured to Israel each year and enslaved as prostitutes.
    Over the past decade, about 100,000 women have been trafficked into Israel in what Keidar calls “modern slavery”. http://truedemocracyparty.net/2012/04/world-wide-white-slave-trade-israel/

  • SDMommyie

    you’re a totally LIED TO INDIVIDUAL….check your facts given to you by israelis and SEE the truth.
    https://electronicintifada.net/content/heritage-uprooted/7126

    VACCINES made in ISRAEL forced on the american public are NOT NECESSARY.
    http://www.naturalhealth365.com/olive_leaves.html/

  • HelenaConstantine

    I guess you condemn Nat Turner, too?

  • Iain Lovejoy

    This is a highly emotive subject and there are people out there calling for the destruction of Israel itself and for the massacre of its people. Language is important and (unless I have got this wrong) what you are saying (which I would agree with) is you cannot support what Israel is doing, not that you no longer support Israel’s right to exist at all (with of course the complicated issue of within exactly what borders). The article fails to make the distinction and given the contentious topic, really ought to, unless you, the supposed pacifist, are calling for the violent destruction of the whole state itself.
    You have also been dangerously sloppy in your use of language (since I can’t imagine you really being that ill-informed) in referring to the state of Israel as a “violent military occupation”. It isn’t. It is engaging in a violent military occupation of Palestinian lands outside its internationally-recognised borders, which is not the same thing (for example if the US invaded Canada and occupied it, the US itself would still be a democracy, but one that was occupying somewhere else). These distinctions are important when others are calling for the entire state’s destruction and its people to be effectively thrown into the sea.
    Finally you are confusing two issues in talking about Israel as an “apartheid state”. Palestians in the occupied territories are not living in an apartheid state since they are under military occupation and not living in the state of Israel at all. Israel Arabs living in Israel, on the other hand, are full citizens of Israel, and vote for the Knesset etc, but do complain in a number of ways of getting treated as second class citizens and being discriminated against. There complaints, however, are not in a way comparable to the treatment of those in the occupied territories. (Perhaps a closer parallel for how the Israeli Arabs complain they are being treated might be the treatment of African-Americans in the southern US in the 50s and 60s, rather than a formal apartheid system as once prevailed in South Africa. )
    I am not about to disagree with you over the appalling treatment by Israel of the Palestinians, or that blind unconditional support by the US is an enabler of this and needs to stop, but I think you need to get the issues clearer in your head before wading in.

  • Iawoke004

    My Jewish father-in-law knew the Bible and teachings extremely well. he was the 1st person I ever saw that lived it. Wish he was here. You would be blessed to hear his thoughts, complete with Bible verses.

  • Becky Kuehn

    All I had to see was you are a PROGRESSIVE Christian. Your opinion is mute to me.

  • Ken Kelso

    The article is complete lies.
    There was never in history any state called Palestine governed by Palestinians. That’s not a convenient truth for pro Palestinian Arabs to acknowledge. They NEVER OWNED THE LAND. PERIOD.

  • Ken Kelso

    Palestinians have no soul.

    http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/10/24/hamas-fatah-officials-praise-terrorist-who-killed-israeli-baby/
    Hamas, Fatah Officials Praise Terrorist Who Killed Israeli Baby
    OCTOBER 24, 2014

    Palestinians across the political spectrum are praising Wednesday’s terrorist attack in Jerusalem, which resulted in the death of a three-month-old Israeli baby. A car driven by a suspected Hamas member crashed into a crowd at a light-rail station, killing the baby girl and injuring eight others.

    An official Hamas statement refers to the infant as a “female settler,” and urges Palestinians to “escalate the confrontations” against Israel in various locations, a translation by the Investigative Project on Terrorism shows.

    “The Islamic Resistance Movement ‘Hamas’ praises its son, the hero martyr Abd al Rahman Idris al-Shaludi (23 years) implementer of the operation of running over the settlers in the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood in occupied Jerusalem, which led to the death of a female settler and the injury of 8 others,” the Hamas statement reads.

    Moreover, Sultan Al-Einein, an adviser to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, praised the terrorist, referring to him as a “heroic Martyr,” a Palestinian Media Watch translation of his official Facebook page said. Shaludi was shot by police and later died from his injuries

    Al-Einein has glorified terrorists in the past, leading five members of Congress to demand that Abbas fire him and condemn his views. Abbas has ignored the American pressure.

    Abbas’ Fatah party also glorified the terrorist’s actions, posting an obituary on its official Facebook page.

    “The Palestinian National Liberation Movement (Fatah)-Silwan branch accompanies to his wedding the heroic Martyr Abd Al-Rahman Al-Shaludi, who carried out the Jerusalem operation, in which settlers in the occupied city of Jerusalem were run over. Rest in peace! We are loyal to you,” the Fatah statement said.

    Abbas’ refusal to reprimand Al-Einein and failure to hold other officials accountable lends tacit approval of the terrorist glorification sentiment that is prevalent throughout senior ranks of the Palestinian Authority and Fatah.

  • Ken Kelso

    I would have thought Benjamin stopped caring about the Palestinians when they started blowing up Jewish children in pizzerias.
    I guess i was wrong.

  • Ken Kelso

    How do Jews colonize land they lived on 15 centuries before Mohammad and Islam were born.

  • Ken Kelso

    Aren’t 22 countries enough for the Arabs

  • Ken Kelso

    Do you know why Israel has a Wall.
    Video of Palestinian monster hacking to death 2 elderly Israelis in Jerusalem.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXfX68wWNgo&feature=youtu.be

  • Ken Kelso

    Great Post

  • Ken Kelso

    Israel did not kill 500 Palestinian children in Gaza war in 2014.
    Please read
    http://www.thomaswictor.com/israel-didnt-kill-500-palestinian-children/

  • Ken Kelso

    Hamas’ favorite spots to fire missiles from: schools, hospitals & cemeteries
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZPfVp9v07A

  • Ken Kelso

    Amos Oz a well known peacenik said this 2 years ago to an interviewer in Israel about the Hamas tactic of using civilians as human shields and how someone should respond.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/the-most-dangerous-moment-in-gaza/375434/
    August 1, 2014

    The most interesting article I’ve read in the past 24 hours is an interview with the Israeli novelist Amos Oz, the father of his country’s peace-and-compromise movement, who opened the interview with Deutsche Welle in this manner:

    Amoz Oz: I would like to begin the interview in a very unusual way: by presenting one or two questions to your readers and listeners. May I do that?

    Deutsche Welle: Go ahead!

    Question 1: What would you do if your neighbor across the street sits down on the balcony, puts his little boy on his lap and starts shooting machine gun fire into your nursery?

    Question 2: What would you do if your neighbor across the street digs a tunnel from his nursery to your nursery in order to blow up your home or in order to kidnap your family?

    With these two questions I pass the interview to you.

  • Ken Kelso
  • Ken Kelso

    Palestinian leaders have successfully produced a society almost totally steeped in hatred and death worship.
    They will implode given enough time to be with their 72 Helen Thomas virgins. 
    A must read article.

    http://www.frontpagemag.com/2011/dr-arieh-eldad/a-story-of-how-deep-the-palestinians-have-sunk-into-the-moral-abyss/
    A Story of How Deep the Palestinians Have Sunk Into the Moral Abyss
    Dr. Arieh Eldad
    May 20, 2011

  • Ken Kelso

    Great Post

  • Ken Kelso

    How can Jewish settlements be “illegal” on #Jewish historical land?

  • Ken Kelso

    lol RT. When is RT going to talk about their ally Assad gassing Syrian civilians

  • Ken Kelso

    Great Post rebuking Lambert

  • Ken Kelso

    hahah Mondoweiss. Thats your source.
    Tons of articles showing how Mondoweiss lies about Israel.
    http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/search/label/Mondoweiss#.VnSOKvkrK01

  • Ken Kelso

    Zionist pigs travel from official Arab media to Mondoweiss
    http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2014/04/zionist-pigs-travel-from-official-arab.html#.U9gPqvldXls … …

  • Ken Kelso

    Who killed RFK?

  • Ken Kelso

    June 23, 2015
    Does Christ at the Checkpoint Have a New Agenda?

    The most recent Youtube video promoted by Christ at the Checkpoint includes a cryptic and oblique message from a well-known anti-Israel polemicist, Michel Sabbah, the Latin Patriarch Emeritus of Jerusalem.
    The stated mission of the biannual Christ at the Checkpoint (CaTC) conferences in Bethlehem “is to challenge Evangelicals to take responsibility to help resolve the conflicts in Israel/Palestine by engaging with the teaching of Jesus on the Kingdom of God.”

    This mission has been carried out through the targeting of a western – and in particular, American – evangelical audience with a message that blames Israel for the problems Palestinian Christians face. In the process, key American evangelical leaders and organizations have not only been involved in every conference since the first one in 2010, but they are actively engaged in promoting the Christian Palestinian narrative to followers in the US.

    One of the ways CaTC disseminates its message and that of its sponsoring institution, Bethlehem Bible College (BBC), is through the use of social media and the production of online videos. Since the targeted audience of these organizations is American evangelicals, the facebook pages of BBC and CaTC, as well as the videos they produce, are in English.

    However, CaTC has recently posted two videos on YouTube that were produced in Arabic. This fact, combined with the content of these clips, raises the question: Does Christ at the Checkpoint have a new agenda? Is it possible they intend to communicate a different message to an Arabic-speaking audience than the one they present to their Western friends? The material presented in these newest videos suggests that this might be the case.

    A video posted on May 6, 2015 by CaTC documents a televised meeting held at Bethlehem Bible College on April 2, 2015 that was allegedly addressed to the persecuted churches of the Arab world. Participants in this meeting included Jack Sara, president of Bethlehem Bible College, Madleine Sara, leader of Counseling and Coaching at BBC, Yohanna Katanacho, Academic Dean of BBC, Michel Sabbah, the Latin Patriarch Emeritus of Jerusalem, Orthodox Archbishop Atallah Hanna, and Noura Karmi, project coordinator of Kairos Palestine, which is an organization known for its issuance of a document by the same name in 2009.

    The Kairos Palestine document asserts, among other things, that Jewish sovereignty or self-determination is contrary to God’s plan for humanity. The document is so egregious that a resolution adopted by the Central Conference of American Rabbis (CCAR) has declared it to be supersessionist and anti-Semitic. In light of this, it is troubling to say the least, that four of the six people involved in the televised meeting at BBC in April played major roles in the development of an anti-Semitic document that delegitimizes Israel’s right to exist on theological grounds.

    In addition to the participation of Karmi as project coordinator, Katanacho, Sabbah and Hanna were all co-authors of this document. The involvement of these people in this meeting, and Katanacho’s position as Academic Dean of BBC, suggests that the president of BBC and the institution itself support this position as well.

    The content of Michel Sabbah’s talk as recorded on the video is no less disturbing.
    According to a translation of the Arabic by George Michael, one of the professional translators who provided the US government with a translation of Osama Bin Laden tapes in 2001, Sabbah says:

    During the Palestinian resistance, and the intifada, there was a lot of Christians “involved”, their position was a true and correct Palestinian position, but they lacked something else and that is to have a Christian position. They would have been stronger; they should have a Palestinian and Christian position at the same time, that makes them stronger.
    Sabbah’s comments about Christians being involved in the Intifada are vague. He does not say exactly how they were involved. But it is clear from this statement, as well as the context in which it appears, that Sabbah is encouraging his audience to continue to be involved in some form of resistance against Israel.

    As with his reference to the past, it is not clear what kind of future involvement he is encouraging. If asked, he may claim he is only encouraging non-violent activity. However, due to the vagueness of his statements, he could easily be interpreted as offering an encouragement of violent means.

    In light of CaTC’s professed intent to help resolve the conflicts in Israel/Palestine by engaging with the teaching of Jesus on the Kingdom of God, and in light of the volatile state of affairs in the Middle East, it is irresponsible for someone associated with CaTC to state that Christian involvement in Palestinian resistance was “a true and correct Palestinian position” without being much more specific about what form that involvement should take.

    The second recent video, posted on YouTube on March 26, 2015, promotes a Christ at the Checkpoint Young Adult conference this coming July through the use of explicit imagery in which Israel is demonized by being equated with ISIS.

    Images of ISIS captives about to be beheaded are juxtapositioned with images of the security barrier Israel was forced to build to protect its citizens from suicide bombers.

    Images of the Jordanian pilot about to be burned alive in a cage are juxtapositioned with scenes of people going through a checkpoint.

    And images of the ISIS flag are juxtapositioned with those of the Israeli flag.

    The obvious implication is that the security measures Israel has been forced to take in response to Palestinian suicide bombers is equivalent to what ISIS is doing to people as it seeks to forcibly establish a caliphate ruled by an extreme form of Islamic law.

    The video also equates Israel and ISIS with the H1N1 virus, or swine flu. In so doing, the contagious spread of swine flu is equated with the terrifying ease with which ISIS is conquering territory, and with the existence of Israel, or at the very least, Israel’s need for a security barrier with checkpoints.

    The analogy between Israel and swine flu is reminiscent of the raging of Hitler against the Jews as a “dangerous bacillus,” and it is consistent with the dehumanizing designation of Jews as pigs that is common throughout the Muslim world. However, this video was not produced by Nazis or Muslims, but by those who claim to be Christians!

    The production of these two videos, in Arabic, with such inflammatory content, causes one to wonder if Christ at the Checkpoint has a new agenda.

    The presentation of such material also makes one question how these latest videos are consistent with the stated mission of CaTC, which “is to challenge Evangelicals to take responsibility to help resolve the conflicts in Israel/Palestine by engaging with the teaching of Jesus on the Kingdom of God.”

    And in light of the fact that the content differs so radically from other videos produced by the same organization, one has to ask whether CaTC would show these videos – particularly the one that equates Israel to ISIS – to the English speaking audience it looks to for spiritual and financial support.

    Ultimately, the question is: Do the leaders of Christ at the Checkpoint really intend to promote the peace they tell their Western audience they want?

  • Ken Kelso

    We must expose evil nature of Palestinian society in order to stop pressure on Israel to create a criminal state
    https://twitter.com/ileibler/status/768685400466522113

  • Ken Kelso

    Did you ask your Christian friend what happened to Kristen Luken in Israel. Why don’t you google Kristen Luken

  • Ken Kelso

    Anna Baltzer is a liar.
    Read.
    http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2013/01/anti-israel-activist-anna-baltzer.html#.UthrsZ5dXls
    Anti-Israel activist Anna Baltzer exposed as a fraud
    Lee Kaplan
    January 29, 2013

  • Ken Kelso

    http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/01/30/did-head-of-anti-israel-organization-anna-baltzer-fabricate-background-to-gain-legitimacy/
    Did Head of Anti-Israel Organization Anna Baltzer Fabricate Background to Gain Legitimacy?
    January 30, 2013.

    http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/archives/7830
    The truth about Anna Baltzer: Defaming her grandmother’s legacy
    Lee Kaplan
    February 23, 2013:

    http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/archives/7700
    A case of “Catch me if you Can?”
    Does Anna Baltzer legally exist?
    Lee Kaplan
    February 9 2013:

  • Ken Kelso

    http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/01/30/did-head-of-anti-israel-organization-anna-baltzer-fabricate-background-to-gain-legitimacy/
    Did Head of Anti-Israel Organization Anna Baltzer Fabricate Background to Gain Legitimacy?
    January 30, 2013.

    http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/archives/7830
    The truth about Anna Baltzer: Defaming her grandmother’s legacy
    Lee Kaplan
    February 23, 2013:

    http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/archives/7700
    A case of “Catch me if you Can?”
    Does Anna Baltzer legally exist?
    Lee Kaplan
    February 9 2013

  • Ken Kelso

    Do you know why Israel has checkpoints.
    To make sure Israeli civilians are not blown up on buses, disco’s, pizzeria’s etc

  • Ken Kelso

    There was never in history any state called Palestine governed by Palestinians. That’s not a convenient truth for pro Palestinian Arabs to acknowledge. They NEVER OWNED THE LAND. PERIOD.

  • Ken Kelso

    http://www.wnd.com/2014/11/dershowitz-rips-obama-on-synagogue-slaughter/#eGdb8uvBdFvmZIPG.99
    ‘Imagine if an Israeli soldier walked into a mosque and murdered 4 imams at prayer’
    By Alan Dershowitz
    11/19/14

  • Ken Kelso

    When they crave attention where do the practitioners of Palestinian Arab barbarism turn
    By Arnold Roth.
    August 8th 2016

    August is a hard time in our family.

    The Hebrew month of Av, which is now, is traditionally a period associated with some of the hardest moments in Jewish history down through the ages. But then, as it crescendos on the 9th day of Av (that’s this coming weekend), the collective mood quickly eases and the month takes on an altogether different, comforting character.

    Not for us. The 20th day of Av is when our daughter Malki was murdered in a Hamas terror attack, along with her closest friend and thirteen other innocent victims inside the Sbarro pizzeria which was located back then in the very center of Israel’s capital city. The anniversary comes out this year (since we observe it according to the Hebrew calendar date) on August 24 as we noted here. That’s when as a family and a community we remember our losss.

    According to the civil calendar, however, the fifteenth anniversary of that cruel act of savagery is tomorrow, Tuesday. A number of articles have emerged today, marking the day and what it signifies.

    Two of the best happen both to focus on the work of an American journalist who has lately made a name by airbrushing out the nauseating sides of barbarous Palestinian Arab jihadism, leaving behind a fabricated confection of brave, blond, innocuous fighters for freedom, justice and rights.

    First, over at Tablet Magazine, the modern historian Petra Marquardt-Bigman has a featured article “Was Ben Ehrenreich Bamboozled By a Palestinian Terror Clan?”, referring to the vicious Tamimis and their self-promoting booster, publicist and propagandist whose Jewish-sounding name serves to give a certain edginess to his views with in some circles.

    Ehrenreich’s work, which has gotten boosted by backers at the New York Times [see
    [“17-Mar-13: A little village in the hills, and the monsters it spawns”] takes a despicable line, ignoring those aspects of this remarkable family of in-bred jihadists he finds inconvenient, while promoting them, Amnesty International-style, as fighters for freedom, self-determination and Apple Pie. His admiration for their values and their violence amounts to a kind of obsequious fawning that seems to infect the ranks of self-styled progressives. No one should be surprised that we find his views and his manner of pushing them repellent.

    We shone a torch into some of the especially dark and ugly aspects of his oeuvre, focusing on a recent Ehrenreich book which has gotten favorable reviews at LARB, The Economist and Telegraph UK. We gave expression to those aspects in a post of several weeks ago, “24-Jul-16: Sociopaths, savagery and the seductiveness of Palestinian Arab victimhood”..

    Ehrenreich is hardly alone in bringing together unabashed enthusiasm for jihadist thuggery while masquerading as a holder of progressive-ish views. We think of them as card-carrying members of the pampered moral narcissists brigade. Often treated as belonging to the forces of peace and human rights, thos among them whose work focuses on the Arab/Israel conflict tend to be driven by a sense that they are in a struggle towards victory, where winning means the defeat and destruction of another people’s state by whatever means, legitimate or foul, are available to them.

    Ehrenreich speaks at a Palestinian Arab event in
    Nablus, May 2016 [Image Source]
    The second artiucle, in which historian Petra Marquardt-Bigman again plays an enabling role, is a blog-post-and-video assembled by the indefatigable Elder of Ziyon and streamed from his busy blog site. It’s entitled “Ben Ehrenreich shares his love for the Sbarro massacre mastermind’s family”.

    It begins with these words:
    This Tuesday will be the 15th anniversary of the infamous Sbarro pizza shop bombing, masterminded by Ahlam Tamimi. The attack, on August 9, 2001, killed 15 people and injured 130. Among the dead were a pregnant woman and seven children – some counted eight, including an 18 year-old who had just finished school; the injured also included one young mother who was left in a permanent vegetative state.For the families of the victims, this year’s 15th anniversary of the attack may well be particularly grim, because of a fawning book that has been recently released by Ben Ehrenreich, lionizing the murderous Tamimi clan. Who would have ever imagined that an American writer would come out with a book that presents the family of Ahlam Tamimi – the Sbarro massacre mastermind – as simply wonderful people?
    We’re wondering the same. But the evidence in front of our eyes is – people who think like Ehrenreich are hardly in short supply. Their upward mobility reflects a catastrophic malaise going well beyond moral narcissism that we think is not well understood. This video will help.

    We endorse Elder’s words:
    For a glimpse of the intense Jew-hatred and the ardent support for terror that animates Ben Ehrenreich’s protagonists, watch the video below [link] that will introduce you to the four people Ehrenreich lists first in the Acknowledgements for his book: Bassem and Nariman Tamimi, and Bilal and Manal Tamimi.
    (We are busy with preparing a feature-length post to share some of what the past fifteen years since the Sbarro disaster have taught us.)

    UPDATE August 10, 2016: Another fine expose of Ben Ehrenreich by Petra Marquardt-Bigman appears on the Harry’s Place site: “Ben Ehrenreich Celebrates the Tamimis (who celebrate terror)”, today.

  • Ken Kelso

    Sorry Jews will not be living under Palestinian Barbarians invaders from Saudi Arabia.

    (Kay Wilson): What Is It Like To Be Stabbed 13 Times?
    Guest Poster (Kay Wilson) – October 8, 2015

    Kay Wilson is a British-born Israeli tour guide, jazz musician and cartoonist. She is the survivor of a brutal terror attack. Since the attack she is a public speaker for StandWithUs and OneFamily Together. She has described her attack in a TedX talk.

    I can, Because I have been stabbed 13 times.With a machete.

    Firstly, the word “stabbed” does not do the experience justice. In Hebrew it is even worse, because “stabbed” is the same word that one uses when being “pricked” by a needle.

    Let’s start with what it feels like. In my case, it felt like a hot poker being bored into my flesh and each time he tugged out the serrated knife, I had the sensation that my bare skin was being raked over with razors. Maybe it would be easier for you to understand if I said it was a pain that felt like my finger nails were being ripped off, over and over again.

    Then there is the adrenalin. This makes a body tremble, yet conversely it makes it heavy. Its rather like the moment when we only just escape being in a car wreck, or the sensation you feel when you are looking down from the edge of a cliff. Its like that. Your stomach turns and your blood drains from your head. It feels like this is happening, over and over again.

    When the “stabbing” is over, there is the cold. The bone gelid, biting cold – due to shock. I remember even the warm December sun felt like ice on my flesh. Every “stabbing” survivor will have felt the cold of death.

    Then there is the beating. He was hitting, smashing, pummelling, thumping me so hard. He broke over 30 bones. Many “stabbing” survivors have broken bones because of the force with which the attacker plunges the knife into their prey.

    Then there are the visuals. In my case, I watched for half an hour two sadistic men, (who were once little boys) waving their machetes in the air, teasing us by putting it across their own throats. I remember the sun glinting off the knife, sparkling, flashing in the forest. I remember his dark eyes, dead eyes, indifferent with the sheer boredom of the up-and-coming execution of two innocent, defenceless women. Most of the recent victims did not face their attackers for half and hour, but even a second is enough – seeing that madness on their face, seeing that knife coming towards them – it’s enough; believe me, it’s enough. And watching someone being murdered, is a “sacred” experience, in the sense that you are seeing something that we were not born to see. This is the hardest emotion to even begin to describe. It will take me the rest of my life to articulate what it does to a person.

    Then there is the taste. A dry mouth: an instant reaction that comes with shock. In my case when he knocked me to the ground, I landed on my face so there was blood in my mouth. There was also bile – one often throws up under extreme fear. I can guarantee that the “stabbing” survivors all had a dry mouth and some may have tasted bile.

    Then there are the sounds: I heard my bones crunch. I heard my flesh rip. I heard him grunt and pant as he tried to beat me to death and hack me up with his meat cleaver. I heard them scream Allah HuAkbar, I heard myself say “Shema Israel,” and I heard my Christian friend whimper “Jesus help me.” It is terrible to be so helpless and hear someone you love, pray, scream and beg for their lives. It is a terrible thing to hear yourself do the same. Many of the latest “stabbing” survivors have also had the horror of helplessly watching those that they love be murdered in front of their eyes. Many have experienced the loss of self-dignity that comes with begging for your life.

    There is more to being “stabbed” than meets the eye. I am sharing what it is like, not to invoke sympathy for myself, but rather arouse compassion and a desire to help the growing, daily number of Jewish people who are experiencing to some degree what I did. These are people whose lives will never be the same again, no matter how lightly, moderately or seriously wounded they are.

    This is terrorism.

    And this, for the survivor, is only the beginning…..

  • Ken Kelso

    Complete lies by Wesley.
    All your Pallywood made up stuff rebuked here.
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFrefugees.html

  • Bones

    You mean like Baruch Goldstein…..

    Maybe Google him….

  • Bones

    You seem to have a black and white view that you support Israeli oppression or Palestinian terrorists.

    They are both wrong….

  • Bones

    Yes Palestinian Christians are against the Israeli occupation….

    That seems to annoy you….

    As for Kairos

    What is Kairos Palestine’s stance on anti-Semitism?
    Kairos Palestine stands against every form of racial, ethnic and religious discrimination. However, the label “anti-Semitism” is often used to silence voices that oppose the occupation. Criticism of Israeli policy is often labeled as anti-Semitic in order to justify the current system of oppression. This false equation endangers both victims of the occupation and Jews who suffer under actual anti-Semitism.

    Kairos Palestine Document Chapter 2.1: “We believe in a good and just God, who loves each one of his creatures. We believe that every human being is created by God in His image and likeness and that every one’s dignity is derived from the dignity of the Almighty One.”

    Kairos Palestine Document Chapter 6.3: “We condemn all forms of racism, whether religious or ethnic, including anti-Semitism and Islamophobia, and we call on [the Churches of the world] to condemn it and oppose it in all its manifestations.”

    http://www.kairospalestine.ps/index.php/about-us/global-kairos/37-english/about-us/frequently-asked-questions/kairos-faq/171-antisemitismfaq

  • Bones

    I take it you won’t answer who killed Rabin and why he was killed.

  • Bones

    Yes pro-Israeli propaganda is a reliable source

    ‘Elder of Ziyon’ fails ICRC reading comprehension test (Updated) –

    http://mondoweiss.net/2013/10/elder-reading-comprehension/#sthash.vVamqKAj.dpuf

  • Bones

    Lol ready for you to bitch about the antisemitic Independent Catholic News.

    Here’s more on antisemite Archbishop Theodosios from the anti-semitic Middle East Eye cos everyone who criticises Israel is an antisemitis.

    Archbishop Theodoios of Sebastia ‘Atallah Hanna’ speaks to Middle East Eye about Palestinian emigration and unity between Christians and Muslims

    Renowned for his high profile political activism and denouncement of the occupation, Archbishop Theodosios “Atallah Hanna” is the Archbishop of Sebastia from the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem and the only Orthodox Palestinian Archbishop. Here, His Eminence speaks on Palestinian emigration and Christian and Muslim unity in the face of the occupation as well as religious extremism in the Middle East.

    MEE: What reasons are people giving for leaving Palestine?

    Firstly, I would like to clarify certain points: Palestine is for all citizens, every human being. We shouldn’t deal with anyone on the basis of their religious beliefs. I will not accept that Palestine is a religious issue or let any religion monopolise it. I have difficulties with the State of Israel calling Jerusalem a Jewish city and reject groups who deny the rights of other citizens. Anyone claiming that the city is Jewish is not recognising Christian or Islamic rights and that Jerusalem has attachments for all.

    During the expulsion of Palestinians in the Nakba in 1948, there was no difference between Christians and Muslims, both churches and mosques were destroyed. The results of emigration from Palestine can be seen more clearly in Christians as they are fewer in numbers. The main reason is Israeli policy and the catastrophic economic effect on people’s livelihoods. For the first time in history there’s an ugly concrete wall between Bethlehem and Jerusalem separating us from each other instead of creating safety and harmony between us. This wall should be removed because it brings shame on the forehead of humanity. The Pope prayed there and many contemplated this. What he wanted to say was that there will be no justice, peace or stability until the wall comes down. There is a generation of youth in Bethlehem, Beit Sahour and Beit Jala who have never seen Jerusalem because the Israeli occupation doesn’t give permits. So for the Palestinian Christian, when he is treated like a foreigner in his own country, he begins to think about leaving. There are many reasons for emigration from Palestine, but the primary cause is the Israeli occupation.

    I believe that the most important thing we can do to keep and protect the Christians in the Middle East is to be united as Christians and Muslims against extremist groups and return to the unity and co-existence that have been here for centuries. There are people who plan to keep the Arabic Middle East as a place of conflict, using religion to destroy historic relations and national unity. As a result, people look for a safe place and leave.

    In Washington last year at a conference for the Anti Discrimination Committee, a man was in tears at Christian suffering at the hands of extremist groups in the Middle East. I asked him: “Where do these arms for those doing the beheading come from? How do these terrorists continue to receive arms in Iraq and Syria, the ones used to kill Christians?” After the American occupation of Iraq, one million Christians left. In the last four years, half a million Christians have left Syria; they didn’t leave because of Assad, they left because of al-Nusra, ISIS and other groups, all who have relationships with the USA. We condemn all crimes committed by these groups and others. They are not just in Iraq and Syria, there are many “sleeping” cell groups. Maybe we will wake up one day and they will be here? Who is supporting and enhancing them? One of the Gulf States, a friend to the USA, has spent millions on arms for them, huge sums of money, used for destruction and war which could be used for the reconstruction of Gaza.

    I have more Muslim friends than Christians. Some want to create enmity between us, this is against our Arabic tradition and culture and we need to face this with all our power. We also need to help Muslims challenge extremism which demonises and affects them badly. It is important that Muslim leaders expose what these groups are doing at the same time as reassuring Christians that they are equal and have the same rights.

    I don’t represent all, but I represent Christians and clergy and am not going to concede on my commitment and belonging to the Palestinian people. As Christian leaders, we commit ourselves to peaceful, humanistic speech and regret all kinds of extremism, denominational discrimination and isolation. We treat people as equal, regardless of their faith. Others want us to move in separate directions and we will not do this.

    I have visited all over the world and haven’t seen any country more beautiful than Palestine. I want to say to those thinking of leaving that you will not find anywhere more beautiful. To those living abroad, we hope that there will be a peaceful solution for you to come back and live in your country.

    MEE: What can internationals do to support Palestine?

    Internationals need to read the Kairos document that I and others produced. When you come, don’t just visit the holy stones but the living stones – the Christian presence in this land. Churches have no value alone, whether we talk about the Church of the Nativity, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre or monasteries – what is important is the people. In Jerusalem, Israeli measures are trying to prevent us building and we need housing projects to enhance the Sumoud (steadfastness) of our people. The other thing needed is for people to pressure their Governments to stop supporting terrorist groups. Terrorism has no religion, victims of terrorism are from all affiliations.

    What is happening to Christians in Iraq and Syria is happening to everyone regardless of their faith. When Christians in Palestine see that half a million left Syria and a million left Iraq, they question their future in the Middle East. We hope that the international Church will have a role in the cause of justice and focus on the Bible’s message of justice in solidarity with the oppressed Palestinians.

    The message that I want to carry to the world is that there will be no peace without justice, no peace without ending the occupation and no peace without demolishing these racist walls which separate us from our brothers and sisters. It is part of our duty as Muslims and Christians to work together with the purpose of enhancing and creating a civil society which respects human rights and all religions.

    MEE: What are your thoughts on boycott, divestment and sanctions (BDS)?

    I am fully committed to the Kairos call for BDS.

    MEE: Do you consider yourself a lone voice sometimes?

    I am not claiming to be a political person. If I wanted to be a political person I would not be in this position. What I am doing is based on my Christian faith and who I am as a person.

    Let me tell you about a visit I made to the US where a journalist asked me: ‘’You are an Orthodox Bishop, what are the numbers of your church?’’

    I replied “All the Palestinian people are my church.’’

    http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/mee-interviews-archbishop-theodosios-jerusalem-1075480582

  • Wesley Sandel

    The Palestinians have no and never have had an army, navy or air force, yet Israel has managed to murder more than 90,000 Palestinians, almost all of them non-combatants.

  • Wesley Sandel

    No racism here, folks, just some creep who negatively stereotypes an entire people and doesn’t even know that Arab is a pan-ethnic designation. 90% of Israeli Jews can’t trace their direct ancestry in Palestine back more than two generations – they’re colonists.

  • Wesley Sandel

    I love it! Israel is created by European Jews who colonize Palestine, a land that has been overwhelmingly non-Jewish for over two thousand years, through savage terrorism and ethnic cleansing campaigns and then subjects the defenseless, native population to systematic, violent racist oppression daily for over sixty years, and it thinks that the victims are at fault! It’s that “special” zionist logic.

  • Wesley Sandel

    There are 1.7 million Christians and Muslims in Gaza and 1.3 million of them are registered refugees from Israeli racist terrorism and ethnic cleansing campaigns. Some of them can actually see the homes the Israelis stole from them right across the apartheid wall. Every single human rights organization in the world that monitors the conflict, including the UN and some excellent Israeli ones report that Gaza is the largest concentration camp in the world, the equivalent of the Warsaw Ghetto.

  • Wesley Sandel

    The Israeli Supreme Court had to intervene to stop the IDF’s standard policy of using Palestinian children as human shields, and the IDF actually appealed the ruling, claiming that the practice saved Jewish lives, and the Israeli government has used the same rationale as a defense of its practice of retribution attacks on Palestinian civilians.

    At Nuremberg the German leaders who had employed the same practice of using human shields and of conducting retribution attacks on civilians used exactly the same rationale – and we hanged them for it.

    Let’s hope history repeats itself for a change.

  • Zev_disqus

    There is no official Israeli religious ideology concerning Jesus. I wonder what Jesus would say about Christian liars.

  • Wesley Sandel

    The Palestinians have no army, no navy and no air force, yet the Israelis have murdered more than 90,000 Palestinians in the conflict, almost all of them non-combatants. The Israelis have been murdering another Palestinian child every three days for over a decade. In the 2014 Israeli military action against the defenseless people in the Gaza Ghetto, 66 Israeli soldiers were killed and over 2100 Palestinians, almost all civilians were killed. This reflects the Israeli policy that the fingernail of a Jew is more important than the lives of ten thousand Palestinian children.

  • Zev_disqus

    If you doubt Christian antipathy to Jews, check out the Spanish Inquisition and the Holocaust, for a start.

  • Wesley Sandel

    Every single human rights organization that monitors the conflict, including the UN and some excellent Israelis ones, agree with the UN estimate that “at least 2,104 Palestinians died, including 1,462 civilians, of whom 495 were children and 253 women.” The only people who dispute that figure are the people who conducted the mass murder.

    It’s like having a debate with a nazi over whether five million Jews were murdered in the Holocaust or “only” 4.5 million.

  • Wesley Sandel

    Every single academic source on the history of the demographics of Palestine show that Palestine was overwhelmingly non-Jewish for two thousands years before European Jews colonized it through savage terrorism, including blowing up bombs in crowded buses, markets and cafes, conducting letter bomb campaigns and assassinating UN diplomats, and two ethnic cleansing campaigns in which the Jews forced one million defenseless, native Palestinian Christians and Muslims from their homes in the new Jewish state at gunpoint, executing those who couldn’t or wouldn’t flee, raping women, looting the life possessions of the refugees (there wasn’t a bar or restaurant in Tel Aviv without a radio looted from a Palestinian home or business) and then systematically destroying 400 Palestinian towns and villages – all for the sole reason that the refugees were non-Jews. Today there are over five million registered refugees from Israeli ethnic cleansing campaigns.

  • Zev_disqus

    He’s chastised by his church because the PA threatens to make life even worse for PA Christians unless it does.
    The fact is that Fr. Nadaf says and does nothing that the church fathers could chastise him about. It’s all political, an extension of the PA’s direct threats against him, because each year there are more Christian volunteers serving in the Israeli army. Each year there are more Muslim volunteers too, but that’s another story.

  • Zev_disqus

    Ask Copts in Egypt about how Muslims treat them,
    then ask Copts in New Jersey the same question.
    Notice the difference and tell us why.

  • otrotierra

    #ThingsJesusNeverSaid

  • Bones

    Notice how this has just become a racist attack on Palestinians

    IDF to investigate army-issued guns in ‘hate wedding’ video
    Army to determine whether soldiers were among revelers seen waving rifles and knives, celebrating killing of a Palestinian baby

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-to-investigate-army-issued-guns-in-hate-wedding-video/

    Let”s not forget the IDF member who pumped a Palestinian schoolgirl full of bullets and is celebated as a hero….

    Not guilty. The Israeli captain who emptied his rifle into a Palestinian schoolgirl
    · Officer ignored warnings that teenager was terrified
    · Defence says ‘confirming the kill’ standard practice

    It’s OK he was promoted and paid compensation for shooting her….

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iman_Darweesh_Al_Hams

  • Bones

    Wrong……

    The convenient truth is you drove Palestinians out of their lands and are still taking their land…..

    It’s still happening….

  • Bones

    I see you still support Jewish settlers even after burning a baby alive…..

  • Bones

    Yes because keeping a population under infinite oppression and occupation is working well for everybody…..

    So you’re just going to occupy Palestine forever or until you’very taken over the whole land.

    Blessed are the peacemakers…..not the occupiers

  • Bones
  • Christie Brink

    Google the death tolls of Israelis and Palestinians and you will find that far, far more Palestinians have died at the hands of Israeli soldiers and settlers since their country was colonized, and currently far more Palestinians are continuing to die. Gaza is also regularly barrel bombed, while Hamas has no army and only has rockets.
    Nelson Mandela and the ANC resorted to violence in their quest for freedom and human rights. I remember the bombings. Mandela later became the president and won a Nobel peace prize.
    You can not keep a people down. There will be resistance.
    The apartheid wall and checkpoints are there to steal land and control the Palestinians. There are Palestinians living inside Israel who could do the things you mentioned. And many Palestinians scale the wall or get around it to work in Israel every day.
    I suggest you visit Palestine in order to see the situation for yourself as I have done.

  • Zev_disqus

    “…revelers seen waving rifles and knives…”

    Waving rifles and knives!
    How terrible!
    What has the world come to!

  • Ken Kelso

    First, there was never in history any state called Palestine governed by Palestinians.
    Jews cant colonize land they lived on 15 centuries before Mohammad and Islam were born.
    2nd, Israel is responding to thousands of missiles Hamas is firing at them. Do you think Israel should just do nothing while these Missiles are fired at them.
    3rd, we all know Hamas fires these missiles behind civilians at Israeli civilians.

    Read the article.
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jan/16/hamas-dead-baby-strategy/
    Hamas’ dead baby strategy

  • Ken Kelso

    Wouldn’t it be better if you focused on Palestinian intransigence and a culture that glorifies murder and terrorism.

    The Palestinians are never discriminated .
    Only the ones the IDF catches while on their slaughter Jews in buses, shopping malls, disco’s and Pizzerias.
    That is Defence. NOT DISCRIMINATION

    What would you do if some Arab tried to murder your baby slitting its throat while asleep in his home bed?

  • Ken Kelso

    Israeli Apartheid is a myth the same as “Palestinian”.

    There is no such a thing as Apartheid in Israel. Perhaps your talking about the Arab nations.

  • Ken Kelso

    Palestinians get more aid per capita then any people on earth yet they are always angry. All foreign aid should be cut off till they grow up, stop firing missiles at civilians, and learn to be productive humans instead of moochers and terrorists.

    The real problem is global Arab/Moslem insistence to spread hate, violence, wars, terrorism, lies, false accusations against Jews and reducing Jews to subhumans or second class citizens – slaves or servants – without any human rights.

    My advice to these Pals is very simple.
    Quit trying to blow up innocent Israeli families on buses. Stop trying to murder Jews at pizzeria’s and disco’s..
    Tell the Pals! You want your welfare handout from the West, than stop with the terrorism and your child abuse death cult.

    Hamas and Fatah are always ready to sacrifice women and children for their greed and hatred.

    The Palestinians will blow up the same hospital that gave them excellent care. The will try to blow up the power plant providing electricity from Israel. Their hate knows no end. Until they love their children more than they hate the Jews as Golda Meir said.

  • Ken Kelso

    How do the Palestinians raise so many people who have no regard for human life? What kind of gutter do these animals come from? What kind of Evil could think it is an act of heroic and religious martyrdom to slaughter children waiting for buses, to blow apart people in their sleep, to kill women doing their marketing, to target the weak and defenseless at malls.
    Why do the Palestinians clamor like vultures to take credit when they butcher Israeli school kids on a school bus? Through the Palestinians hate, an entire generation has lost the capacity for humanity.

    Israel should be commended for its extreme restraint. Which other country would tolerate blood thirsty terrorists within and next door who want to annihilate the country

    The racists are Palestinians who praise Israeli buses being blown up with old people on board. Pizza restaurant and Disco’s where Israeli teenagers hung out, blown up.
    Crude racism was an old man in a wheel chair is pushed off a ship alive, because he was a Jew.
    Does the name Leon Klinghoffer ring a bell?

  • Ken Kelso

    The Palestinians continually initiate the violence. The Israelis have not fired the first shots.
    Do the Palestinians expect not to be fired back on? Its ok for them to blow up Israeli school kids on buses, shopping malls, disco’s, pizzeria’s and Passover seders.
    Someone please explain to me how the Israelis could possibly live next to such a violent people.

    I personally don’t see how it can be done at this point. All I see is the Palestinians provoking war and using any method they can to get all of Israel.

    It seems that after 5 decades of terror and murder against Israel.
    The Palestinians might have realized that this campaign of terrorism and rejectionism has failed.

    By the way, how many Muslims have been killed by Muslims this week in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Bahrain, Lebanon, Somalia, Yemen, Nigeria?
    How many have been killed by Jews? Numbers please.

    Palestinians should get one thing into their heads: the world does not revolve around them. They share the blame for their situation, because they always wanted everything and never wanted to compromise. First and foremost that NOBODY, and least Israel owes them anything.

  • Christie Brink

    I grew up in South Africa hearing the same kind of propaganda. The truth is that Palestinians have lived in Palestine for centuries. New Jewish immigrants (or those that are only partly Jewish) with no traceable history to Israel have rights in Israel that Palestinians don’t. The truth is that Israel has a very sophisticated army supported by the USA to the tune of billions of dollars. Hamas has a small militia and pidlly rockets. Have you looked at the death tolls? Have you lived in Palestine? My eyesight has been permanently damaged after being frequently teargassed by Israeli soldiers while peacefully demonstrating. Further discussion is pointless.
    Please understand that you are supporting an evil apartheid system. And if you don’t go there you can’t speak to it.

  • Wesley Sandel

    There is no god and no satan, there is only this world and the good and evil men do in it – and Israel is so very, very evil.

  • Bones

    I know….

    Everyone should celebrate Palestinian babies being burned alive…

  • Michael

    The Orthodox control the Ministry of Interior. All marriages, divorces and funerals are conducted in Israel ONLY by the Orthodox rabbinate. A Jew must prove his Jewish pedigree by Orthodox standards. Ergo, Israel although a secular state has empowered Orthodox Judaism to define Jewishness. In this sense Israel also validates the Orthodox perspective on Jesus as an evil sorcerer and satanic impostor. All Israelis become guilty by association with their Orthodox thought control police.

  • Michael

    The Jews were expelled from Spain due to the fact that Judaism openly extols Islam and reviles Christianity. Jews were seen as fifth columnist supporters of Islam against Spanish Catholic society. Traitors etc.

    If you want to support Islam and denigrate Christianity, at least be honest about it and be willing to bear the consequences.

  • Zev_disqus

    There may be Jews with those beliefs, in Israel and abroad, but guilt by association is hardly an official Israeli religious ideology concerning Jesus. Please apologize for lying.

  • Zev_disqus

    Muslims don’t have statues which they pray to in their houses of worship, they don’t believe in Trinity or that god has children, but there’s no lost love between Jews and Muslims.

    Be honest indeed.

  • Michael

    God judges societies collectively. So long as only Orthodox Judaism holds the official power in Israel, all Israelis are judged by its enmity to Jesus.

    Israel is the ONLY society on earth whose religious leaders regard Jesus as an evil person.

    Ergo, God regards all of Israel as an evil state.

    It’s really simply Zev. You just have to swallow the bitter pill.

    Or wolf it down.

  • Michael

    Indeed. See this post by an Orthodox Jewish organization on the similarities between Judaism and Islam: https://www.facebook.com/613rebecca/posts/1746807215580017

  • Michael

    Of course it’s all false flattery. Here are my comments to that post:

    Michael Korn Judaism and Islam are the flip sides of the same anti-Christ coin.

    Michael Korn Judaism regards Jesus as a deluded sorcerer who led israel astray and performed miracles by the power of satan and who deserved to be crucified. Islam regards Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, miracle worker, but they deny His crucifixion and resurrection. Which heresy is worse, that of Judaism or that of Islam?

    Michael Korn Judaism at least doesn’t falsely flatter Jesus as does Islam, which pretends to honor him even as it denies the heart of the Gospel and His life story.

    Michael Korn See this for an amazing testimony of an Indian Moslem convert to Catholicism: https://www.facebook.com/michaelph…/posts/1719021458341951

    Michael Korn See this for another way Judaism and Islam collaborate: in support of the terror jihadist army ISIS: https://www.facebook.com/michaelphilip.korn/posts/1731605657083531

  • Michael

    See these links about the historicity of the Star of Bethlehem, which Judaism tried to supplant with the false messiah Simon bar Kosiba:
    http://www.bethlehemstar.com/
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGUlWa2r-bk

  • Michael

    See this on the affinity of Trump and the Jews:
    http://www.jpost.com/US-Elections/Donald-Trump/Pride-and-affirmative-prejudice-The-complex-history-of-Donald-Trump-and-the-Jews-468120

    You’re basically looking at another King Herod, an Edomite goy who desperately wants to ingratiate himself with the Jewish power elite.

    That’s why Herod rebuilt the Second Temple.

    Similarly Trump builds palaces and casinos and other venues that cater to the Jewish rich and to banal entertainments that they enjoy.

    And why all of Trump’s kids have married Jews.

  • Michael
  • Bones

    Or the Early Church Fathers. ….or the gospels….

  • Bones

    Dude, that’s complete and utter nonsense.

    The expulsion of Jews from Spain had nothing to do with Islam

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_Decree

  • Bones

    Do you expect people to just sit back and have their land taken over by settlers?

    And Palestinians are also Christians.

    They’re the ones you label as having no soul.

  • Bones

    Mohammad based Islam on Judaism. He also protected heterodox Christians which is where he probably developed his ideas on Jesus Christ.

    That’s no secret.

    Judaism is a religion.

    It doesn’t conspire with terrorist organisations.

  • Bones

    Dude, no one”s reading your hateful propaganda.

  • Bones

    And Palestinian doctors work in Israeli hospitals…..

  • Zev_disqus

    “Ergo, God regards all of Israel as an evil state.”

    Not if Jesus, and more so his followers, do everything they can to prevent Jews from learning God’s Torah and following God’s commandments.

    “Or wolf it down.”

    Nice pun.

  • Zev_disqus

    I watched the video, a minute here, two minutes there.
    It’s nonsense. I’m surprised you don’t see that yourself.

  • Michael
  • Michael

    https://www.facebook.com/michaelphilip.korn/posts/1731605657083531?hc_location=ufi Israel was created via Irgun and other terrorist organizations.

  • Michael

    It’s 60 minutes long. Well worth your while to investigate. If you try to understand a 1000 page book by reading just a few pages, of course it will look like nonsense! That’s because you’re too lazy to make an effort to understand!

    Here’s my note to his FB page about the lecture:
    https://www.facebook.com/bethlehemstar/posts/1214298861925683

  • Zev_disqus

    One of the things I happened to see in the video was the lecturer saying that before Kepler it was impossible to calculate the positions of the planets. This is wrong. The Greeks knew the positions well enough to know that the orbits were not simple perfect circles. That’s why they created epicycles. Their mistake, besides the geocentric one, was to assume that movement in a perfect universe could only be in perfect circles, not ellipses.

    Another problem, which I saw in your FB note, was the difficulty of knowing exact Hebrew dates in the Julian calendar, because you don’t know exactly which day was declared to be the first of the month.

    And I wonder what the importance is of certain stars or planets appearing on a certain day. Does it mean that someone who was born then would be a prophet or Messiah? Does it mean that I can abandon the divine commandments because such a person says so? The OT certainly doesn’t say that.

  • Michael

    Thanks Zev for taking the time to watch and think about these things.

    You ask good questions.

    The prophet Balaam gave a sign of the star (Kochav miYaakov waShevet miYisrael) that the rabbis say is Messianic. There are only two persons to whom this prophecy was applied: Jesus of Nazareth (Yeshua MiNazrat) and Simon bar Kosiva aka Bar Kochba. The latter was obviously a Mashiach Sheker. This pretty much leaves only Yeshua as Mashiach Emeth. Unless you choose totally ignore the prophecy.

    As far as the commandments go, I’d like to make two points:

    (1) You and all observant Jews already have abandoned them since today, without a Temple, 2/3 are unpracticable. You selectively follow them and pretend that you have completely fulfilled them, which obviously is not true. Most important you utterly lack blood atonement.

    (2) The Apostle Paul (Shaul miTarsus) wrote that the mitzvoth are meant to humble us and to lead us to the foot of the cross, as we realize that our fulfillment of even those few we can practice today is utterly lacking in genuine kavanah and free of ulterior motives.

    Please just ponder this and pray to YaHuWAllaH to ask Him if Jesus/Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah and Savior of the World!

    I’m confident you will get a clear answer.

    You are in my prayers.

    Amen.

    PS When I listen to these Arabic Christian songs I dream of a better Middle East, when the two anti-Christ faiths of Judaism and Islam will be able finally to live together in mutual harmony love and respect!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8a6rfi-iWY&list=RDk8a6rfi-iWY&index=1
    http://hymn.linga.org/top7

  • Christie Brink

    I have read the hasbara handbook and you use the same inane arguments outlined in it. I suspect you are a paid troll. Reasoning with you is futile. And you’ve never lived in Palestine. I shall not bother to respond any longer.

  • Bones

    Yes, all religions have an extremist branch…..

  • Bones

    It’s no secret that Muslims protected Jews and that during the First Crusade Jews and Muslims defended Jerusalem together and were both slaughtered by the crusaders.

    Jews, however, were not a front for Islam and some of your articles that say they are are flat out antisemitic.

  • Bones

    BTW if the Muslims hadn’t have protected Jews, Christianity would have exterminated Judaism.

  • Bones

    There was one school of Judaism which trumpeted Jewish nationalism.

    The school of Shammai died with the Jewish War and are the pharisees we read about in the gospels.

    Hillel was the other school at the time and was not nationalistic. In fact Hillel scholars like Jesus were killed for not supporting their nationalist and exclusive view of religion.

    Hillel is the school which has most influenced Judaism.

  • Zev_disqus

    “A star has come forth” expresses his success, as if to say, his good fortune shall rise. Whoever this refers to, will be successful, which makes sense.

    “…pretend that you have completely fulfilled them…”

    While there is no temple, there is no sacrifice. This was true during the 70 years of Babylonian exile also. Judaism survived, the laws remained.

    “…the mitzvoth are meant to humble us and to lead us to the foot of the cross…”

    Paul said anything which might wean Jews away from the Torah, “to win them for Christ”, but this claim is not true. There may be dozens of verses saying the commandments are “to do”, there is no hint of an ulterior “leading to the cross” motive.

    “You are in my prayers.”

    Thanks, we all need prayers, but please don’t pray I abandon the Torah or the Commandments.

  • Zev_disqus

    “…their land…”

    And Israel says it’s Israel’s.
    Only negotiations can solve this conundrum,
    but Abbas prefers to play hard-to-get.

  • Zev_disqus

    It was sharply reduced long ago, when the Israeli government woke up to what was happening.
    That’s why you cite old numbers.

  • Zev_disqus

    Christianity and Islam, each in its own way,
    are both “Judaism for non-Jews”.

  • Bones

    The West Bank isn’t Israeli land.

    The issue of settlements is part of Likud’s charter and Netanyahu has refused to negotiate.

    The idea you can occupy a population in perpetuity while claiming their land as liebensraum and not expect consequences is pure fantasy.

    There aren’t too many people in the world who wouldn’t be pissed off.

  • Wesley Sandel

    Question 1: What would you do if European Jews colonized your town through savage terrorism and ethnic cleansing campaigns?

    Question 2: What would you do if European Jews forced your family from its home at gunpoint and into refugee camps?

  • Zev_disqus

    “The West Bank isn’t Israeli land.”

    It isn’t “Palestine” either.
    Call it Judea and Samaria, you’ll understand this better.
    Only negotiations can solve this, and neither side will get everything it wants.

    “aren’t, too many… wouldn’t be…”

    Bones, please keep your grammar simple, just for me.
    OK?

  • Bones

    So why aren’t the native Palestinians Israeli citizens?

    The West Bank is not Israeli territory. You know that for a fact.

    Therefore the people of the West Bank and Gaza have the right to make their own decisions of what to do with their land.

    The whole settlement ideology is one of colonisation and liebensraum.

    Israel isn’t interested in negotiation.

    Remember it wasn’t Palestinians who killed an Israeli PM..

    What is it about Israel that can’t be criticised?

    It’s policy is shithouse.

    I say the same about my own country and the US.

  • Bones

    So after accusing Obama of being anti-semitic , the US tax payers will continue to fund Israel’s occupation for the next 10 years to the tune of $38 billion….

    No wonder your schools and health system are so shithouse. ..

  • Zev_disqus

    “So why aren’t the native Palestinians Israeli citizens?”

    Your question is irrelevant unless:
    1) you accept Israeli sovereignty in the West Bank, and
    2) Palestinians want to work together with Jews to build a new peaceful, future.

    A lot of your post is correct but could be said of the Palestinians too.

  • Bones

    Palestinians not born in Israel weren’t offered Israeli citizenship…….Settlements were merely forced on them as Israel needed liebensraum.

    It was also a punishment against the Palestinians.

    I recall when peace was a near reality between Arafat and Rabin. ..

    But many didn’t like that….including bibi

  • janbn

    When was the last time that a suicide bomber blew up a pizza parlor, a disco or a seder dinner? There haven’t been any suicide bombings for years. While sucide bombings are terrible so are the acts by Israel that led young people to take their own lives along with the lives of Israelis. Many of the suicide bombers had experienced the demolition of their homes when they were children while others lost members of their family to Israeli bombs and bullets.
    If the Palestinians are willing to live next to a people that pushed most of them out of their homes, who have demolished thousands of their homes, who have imprisoned and often tortured them, who have taken much of their land for their illegal settlements, who have oppressed and occupied them for almost 50 years, why can’t the Israelis live next to them? The truth is that Israel wants as much of the land that they can grab with as few Palestinians on that land as possible.
    I wonder how you would fare if your home was demolished, if your family had been ethnically cleansed, if your olive trees which were your main source of income had been destroyed, if your children had been beaten or shot for throwing a stone at a well protected soldier, if your children were tear gassed on the way to school, if IDF soldiers came into your home and ransacked the place while dragging out members of your family.
    Would you be peaceful? I doubt it.

  • LeslieFish

    O Christian, where are you getting this incredible crap? …Never mind: I can guess. Haven’t you noticed that the so-called “Palestinians” use their own children for human shields, hide terrorist attackers among innocent civilians, attack Jews whenever they can and then howl for the world’s pity when the Jews strike back? If you’ll look at real historical records (including those of the UN), you’ll see that the Jews *never were* “occupiers”; many of them have lived in Israel continuously since the days of the Romans, and before. It was the Arabs, as part of Muhammed’s conquering armies, who invaded and occupied Israel after the Romans left. And they never were “peaceful”; when they weren’t invading Europe and Asia, the Arabs always fell to fighting among each other. In the 19th century, when European Jews began returning to Israel, the land was ruled by the Ottoman (Turkish) empire, and Jewish settlers bought land outright from Ottoman feudal landowners; the Arab neighbors attacked and abused the Jews even then, purely because they weren’t Muslims. When the Ottoman empire was defeated and broken up in World War One and Britain took over the land, the Arabs stepped up their attacks on the Jews (look up the 1929 Hebron massacre) because the British ruled with a lighter hand and wouldn’t punish their activities as viciously as the Turks had. By this time the Jewish settlers had bought and settled about half of the land in the territory the British called “Palestine”. After World War Two, when Britain gave up the territory, the UN voted to divide the land into two distinct states: Israel, which included the lands the Jews owned, and Palestine, where the Arabs lived. It was the Jews who happily accepted the “two-state solution”; it was the Arabs who fiercely refused — because they wanted the entire territory for themselves. We all know what happened afterward; the Arabs attacked the Jewish lands — now called Israel — hoping to take them all, and were soundly trounced. For the next three decades and more, the Arabs made repeated attempts to conquer Israel and were defeated every time. At each failed attempt, Israel took over the lands which the Arab attackers had used as staging-areas for the attacks, hoping that the Arabs would finally give up on their dreams of conquest; that is the “occupation” that the Arabs and their sympathizers complain about. (Arabs living in the “occupied” areas are actually better treated by the Israelis than they ever were by the Ottomans.) But in fact the tactic worked; Arabs gave up sending armies against Israel, and took to suborning other countries to attack Israel instead. It’s ironic that 70 years after rejecting the “two-state solution” the Arabs are clamoring for it now. These are *facts* which can be confirmed by the UN’s records, not obvious propaganda of Arab invention.

  • Zev_disqus

    Do you accept Israeli sovereignty in the West Bank?
    Do Palestinians want to work together with Jews to build a new, peaceful, future?
    Do you “recall” the number of Israelis killed on the streets during the Oslo talks?
    Could that be what Netanyahu and his followers didn’t like?

  • Bones

    “Do you accept Israeli sovereignty in the West Bank?”

    My opinion or yours is irrelevant…..it is the opinion of the native populace which matters.

    “Do Palestinians want to work together with Jews to build a new, peaceful, future?”

    Most do but not at any cost. How long does this cycle of violence last? Quite frankly I can’t see how anything can happen when you have massive settlements built among the native population which are now becoming even more powerful politically.

    Let’s not forget Bibi’s election promise “There will be no Palestinian State”

    Do you “recall” the number of Israelis killed on the streets during the Oslo talks?
    Could that be what Netanyahu and his followers didn’t like?

    You obviously know nothing about it…..

    “The man who confessed to killing Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin appeared in court for the first time Monday. Jewish law student Yigal Amir told the judge the assassination was meant to halt the Mideast peace process.”

    Tell us again about the evil Palis…

    You mean that’s why they had Rabin dressed up in an ss uniform?

    http://www.executionchronicles.org/images/rabin-shirt.jpg

    also

    Rabin’s assassination: A night that changed Israel’s history — and my life
    http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/04/world/yitzhak-rabin-assassination-anniversary/

  • Zev_disqus

    “My opinion or yours is irrelevant.”

    You asked this question:
    “So why aren’t the native Palestinians Israeli citizens?”
    My question is relevant to why you asked. If you would have answered, I would have continued with this line, but you can probably guess how it would have gone.

    “Most do but not at any cost.”

    Citizenship means one state solution, and that’s a whole new ball game. You’re stuck in the old one, but you ask questions relating to the new one.

    “…assassination was meant to halt the Mideast peace process.”

    You’re probably the only person in the world who wouldn’t know that without the court proceedings. But why were there so many complaints about Rabin “galloping forward”, ignoring the carnage around him? The “peace” process was bringing little more than death, that’s why.

    “Tell us again about the evil Palis…”

    “Again”?
    You never heard that from me.
    My posts are public, you can read them as far back as you like.
    Please apologize.

    “A night that changed Israel’s history — and my life”

    An article about Jews who love Israel “on condition”.
    What can one learn from it?

  • Bones

    “You asked this question:”

    I made it quite clear that Palestinians cannot become Israeli citizens and that if they wish to become part of Greater Israel or live under their own government is a decision for them and them alone. They of course don’t have a decision to make.

    Israel doesn’t want them.

    What you or I think they should do is irrelevant. Though you would rather they just roll over and die….

    “Citizenship means one state solution, and that’s a whole new ball game. You’re stuck in the old one, but you ask questions relating to the new one.”

    Yes, because the NO state solution is working just fine…….

    “You’re probably the only person in the world who wouldn’t know that without the court proceedings. ”

    Really,,,,it’s pretty easy to find….sounds like you agree with Amir.

    Let’s ignore the fact that Baruch Goldstein shot up a mosque the year before.

    “You never heard that from me.

    Really….according to your posts it’s all Abbas’s and the Palestinian’s fault.

    I have nothing to apologise for.

    You need to apologise to the Palestinian people.

    “An article about Jews who love Israel “on condition”.”

    Yeah, if you don’t support Israeli occupation, you don’t love Israel.

    Grow a brain…that sort of idiotic logic or false patriotism doesn’t work on me.

  • Zev_disqus

    “Though you would rather they just roll over and die….”

    And they do all they can to make that happen…to us.

    “…working just fine”

    That’s a poor description but look at statistics on health, education, and welfare, 1967 till today. Occupation has more to say for itself than you’d like to admit. If Palestinians can end their belligerence, one state will be even better, for all of us.

    “…agree with Amir.”

    No one wants to live in a country where political decisions are made that way, but the annual festivals around the anniversary of Rabin’s death deliberately make the wrong impression. Rabin was no paragon of virtue or of democracy. Attacking me won’t change that.

    “…Abbas’s and the Palestinian’s fault.”

    You said “evil Palis”, now you’re talking about blame.
    Please apologize, again.

    “… if you don’t support Israeli occupation…”

    If you leave Israel because it doesn’t do what you want it to, you don’t love it. That’s conditional, and to every one of them, I say good riddance.

  • Bones

    “And they do all they can to make that happen…to us.”

    Who?

    Oh yes – the evil Palis

    Look Palestinians, you have a friend who wants you to all lie down and just let Israel steal your land and you can just f*ck off.

    “That’s a poor description but look at statistics on health, education, and welfare, 1967 till today. Occupation has more to say for itself than you’d like to admit. If Palestinians can end their belligerence, one state will be even better, for all of us.”

    Yeah. The occupation and NO State solution is great for the Palestinians. It’s working wonders. Let’s have more of the same….That’ll work.

    Are you the head of Bibi’s propaganda??? It sure freaking sounds like it…

    “No one wants to live in a country where political decisions are made that way, but the annual festivals around the anniversary of Rabin’s death deliberately make the wrong impression. Rabin was no paragon of virtue or of democracy. Attacking me won’t change that.”

    And now we see even today, Rabin’s assassination is justified.
    Israelis working for peace have more to fear from their own side.

    “You said “evil Palis”, now you’re talking about blame.
    Please apologize, again.”

    Why? You’ve already said ‘they’ want you dead.

    You blame Abbas in every post….And you make it clear that its all the fault of those evil Palis who don’t know what’s good for them.

    No….You need to apologise to the Palestinians….for promoting an unjust occupation and stealing their land….oh and Rabin’s widow…

    “If you leave Israel because it doesn’t do what you want it to, you don’t love it. That’s conditional, and to every one of them, I say good riddance.”

    Given most Jews don’t even live in Israel, nor want to, that says a lot about you and the policies of the State of Israel.

  • Zev_disqus

    “… the evil Palis”

    Ehud Barak said if he were born Palestinian, he would fight.
    Decades before, Moshe Dayan said the same thing.
    We don’t demonize Palestinians, or call them evil.

    Seek truth, Bones, respect honesty, debate courteously.
    In the end, it’s more *self* respect than anything else.

    We do have claims which will some day be put on the bargaining table, when Abu Mazin or his successor agrees to face-to-face negotiations and tells his people, in Arabic, to forget about a repetition of Muhammad’s dealings with the Khyber Jews or Arafat’s promise that “we will take what the Jews give us today, later we will *take* the rest”.

  • Bones

    “We don’t demonize Palestinians, or call them evil.”

    Of course not….Israelis are nice…that’s why Bibi said Palestinians caused the Holocaust not Hitler.

    http://www.thenational.ae/opinion/crude-rewrite-of-history-demonises-palestinians

    “Seek truth, Bones, respect honesty, debate courteously.
    In the end, it’s more *self* respect than anything else.”

    Oh I seek truth all right. I don’t fall for state sponsored propaganda and I don’t respect people who justify injustice and ignore their own country’s role in the creation of a 50 year occupation. Or one who justifies the assassination of their own PM.

    F*ck me if the PLO had’ve assassinated Rabin, the tanks and bulldozers would’ve been right out there.

    But no, it was a right wing Israeli, – so it was Rabin’s fault.

    “We do have claims which will some day be put on the bargaining table, when Abu Mazin or his successor agrees to face-to-face negotiations and tells his people, in Arabic, to forget about a repetition of Muhammad’s dealings with the Khyber Jews or Arafat’s promise that “we will take what the Jews give us today, later we will *take* the rest”.

    Once again -it’s the evil Palis.

    It’s hard to believe you made that statement about Arafat when we know what Israel is doing on the West Bank.

    Of course by then – there won’t be much land left to negotiate….or if Bibi’s lucky, Hamas gains control in the West bank…that should get him a couple more elections.

  • Zev_disqus

    “Bibi said Palestinians caused the Holocaust not Hitler”

    Nobody thinks that, not even Bibi, and the issue isn’t as simple as your link makes it. See:
    http://documents-on-german-foreign-policy-d.pen.io/

    “by then – there won’t be much land left”

    At current rates of expansion, settlements will cover some 3% of the West Bank a hundred years from now.

  • Bones

    Don’t treat us as idiots. We don’t fall for your propaganda.

    Bibi’s comments were clear but I see you’re his main defender. It’s more of his revisionism to tie the Palestinians in with the holocaust which was incrediby dishonest and disputed by any military historian. Because the evil Palis want to kill all the Jews….

    Bibi also used his scare campaign that the Arabs would ‘vote in droves’ to win the last election.

    Good luck defending that one because even Bibi apologised for his ‘gaffe’.

    This is the Israeli foreign minister with reference to Arabs

    “Those who are against us, there’s nothing to be done – we need to pick up an axe and cut off his head. Otherwise we won’t survive here.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/03/10/israeli-foreign-minister-says-disloyal-arabs-should-be-beheaded/

    And any country which has an education minister like Naftali Bennett is clearly retarded.

    Bennett – “I have killed lots of Arabs in my life—and there is no problem with that.”

    Or creatures like Ayelet Shaked as their Justice Minister who called for war against all Palestinians including the killing of their mothers.

    People used to say the same about the blacks.

    This is the IsraelI government – which represents the views of the majority of Israel.

    F#ck me, no wonder you killed Rabin.

    And your support for Jewish settlements on land you know isn’t Israeli, is duly noted.

    “The population of Jewish settlers in the West Bank has been growing four times faster than Israel’s itself.”

    ttps://www.bloomberg.com/quicktake/israeli-settlements

  • Zev_disqus

    You’re obviously not going to see the link I provided.
    A pity, but I understand…

  • Bones

    I read it….there was nothing there about Palestinians giving Hitler the idea to commit the holocaust like Bibi says….

    History is a funny thing….like the Zionists who wanted to fight for the Nazis…..

    A pity that I do understand far too well the likes of you….

  • Michael

    http://kkkillary.blogspot.com/

    new blog called Killary Killed Kadafi and unfit for president.

  • Joe Retief

    Great article, thanks. I am a South African and understand Apartheid. I am pro-Jewish and pro-Israel, but absolutely anti-Zionist. The Israel of today is nót the Israel of biblical times, as you also mentioned. In fact, Jesus néver practiced Rabbinical Judaism, but the ancient Hebrew faith. Rabbinical Judaism of today is based on the traditions of the Pharisees, as was written down in the Mishnah and Gemara, ie the Talmud. Jesus “loathed” most religious leaders of His time. The Jews have added to the written Torah, the Oral Torah, ie all the traditions of the Pharisees. This is what today’s Judaism is based upon. Now they even consider the occultic Zohar (Kabbalah) as part of the Oral Torah. However there are still some Torah Jews left, but they are in the minority. These Jews, especially in Israel, do not support at all what the Israeli government is doing, referring to the Palestinians. I completely reject Rabbinical Judaism, Talmudic Judaism, and Kabbalah Judaism. Even in the letters to the seven churches in Revelation Jesus already mention twice “those who say they are Jews, but are not (true Jews). But.. Christians in general, don’t really grasp the reality of what’s going on in Israel and in Judaism. I think we should still pray for the peace of Jerusalem – as the Bible mentions (just thinking of conflict on the Temple Mount), and for the prosperity of Israel, whatever that really means in God’s eyes.

  • fuster

    your mama

  • Wesley Sandel

    What a pithy attempt to blame mythical creatures for Israeli war crimes.

  • fuster

    your mother is mythical?

    are you a lab mishap?

  • Wesley Sandel

    Israel has murdered more than 2000 Palestinian children in the last fifteen years alone.

  • Helen4Yemen

    Give me one good reason why the European Ashkenazi is in Palestine?

  • Helen4Yemen

    The Arabs did remove the Crusaders, right?

    The French were in Algeria for over 100 years and over night 1,000,000 were shows the exist, right?

    The British were in Yemen for 160 years. Where are they now? Gone, right?

    This Ashkenazi from Europe too will be going back in the same direction as the Crusaders, the French and the British.

  • Helen4Yemen

    European Ashkenazis who colonized Palestine had zero experience
    in tilling the land.

  • Helen4Yemen

    How did the European Ashkenazi – with baby soft European hands that never touched soil in his life make the land green and the Palestinians who had lived on farming from time immemorial were unable to make their land green. This is straight out of Hasbara central.

  • Helen4Yemen

    “Jewish inhabitants”? Which ones? The Arab Jews or the
    Euro-Jews?

  • Helen4Yemen

    The Ashkenazi in Palestine is a predatory European colonist. You do not get it?

  • Helen4Yemen

    Desmond Tutu: “I have been to the Occupied Palestinian Territory, and I have witnessed the racially segregated roads and housing that reminded me so much of the conditions we experienced in South Africa under the racist system of Apartheid. I have witnessed the humiliation of Palestinian men, women, and children made to wait hours at Israeli military checkpoints routinely when trying to make the most basic of trips to visit relatives or attend school or college, and this humiliation is familiar to me and the many black South Africans who were corralled and regularly insulted by the security forces of the Apartheid government.”

    In an April 2010 open letter to the University of Berkeley

  • Helen4Yemen

    1. Does the term ‘apartheid’ fit Israel? Of course it does.
    Los Angeles Times May 17, 2014

    2. It’s Time to Admit It. Israeli Policy Is What It Is: Apartheid
    Haaretz Aug 17, 2015

    3.Israeli Apartheid ‘Much Worse’ Than South Africa
    Noam Chomsky – Aug 25, 2015

    4. Veteran South African activist Denis Goldberg Israel ‘an apartheid state’
    Middleeastmonitor Jul 28, 2015

    5. The tribulations of being an Ethiopian Jew
    IRSN 9 February 2012

    6. Under Israeli Apartheid, Palestinians Cannot Ride Israeli Buses
    Counterpunch OCTOBER 28, 2014

    7. Israel an apartheid state? A majority of Jews say yes!
    RT .com

    8. Apartheid in the Holy Land Desmond Tutu
    The Guardian April 28, 2002

  • Helen4Yemen

    Jabotinsky : ZIONISM = COLONIALISM

    “My readers have a general idea of the history of colonization in other countries. I suggest that they consider all the precedents with which they are acquainted, and see whether there is one solitary instance of any colonization being carried on with the consent of the native population. There is no such precedent. The native populations, civilised or uncivilised, have always stubbornly resisted the colonists, irrespective of whether they were civilised or savage. And it made no difference whatever whether the colonists behaved decently or not. “

  • Helen4Yemen

    Jabotinsky : ZIONISM = COLONIALISM

    “Has any People ever been seen to give up their territory of their own free will? In the same way, the Arabs of Palestine will not renounce their sovereignty without violence.”

  • Helen4Yemen

    Since “Israel” was created for the benefit of European Jewry, why couldn’t these Europeans erect their state on their own soil in Europe?

  • Helen4Yemen

    But the European Ashkenazi are not Semitic!

  • Helen4Yemen

    The only way “Israel” can continue to exist it if it is embraced by the Palestinians and the entire Arab and Islamic peoples. As it is, it is viewed with disgust, as a malignant tumor, as alien, as imperialist, colonialist.

  • Helen4Yemen

    Jabotinsky “Let us consider for a moment the point of view of those to whom this seems immoral. We shall trace the root of the evil to this – that we are seeking to colonise a country against the wishes of its population, in other words, by force. Everything else that is undesirable grows out of this root with axiomatic inevitability. What then is to be done?” (1923) “

  • Helen4Yemen

    Jabotinsky : ZIONISM = COLONIALISM

    ” My readers have a general idea of the history of colonization in other countries. I suggest that they consider all the precedents with which they are acquainted, and see whether there is one solitary instance of any colonization being carried on with the consent of the native population. There is no such precedent. The native populations, civilised or uncivilised, have always stubbornly resisted the colonists, irrespective of whether they were civilised or savage. And it made no difference whatever whether the colonists behaved decently or not. “

  • Helen4Yemen

    Jabotinsky: “Let us consider for a moment the point of view of those to whom this seems immoral. We shall trace the root of the evil to this – that we are seeking to colonise a country against the wishes of its population, in other words, by force. Everything else that is undesirable grows out of this root with axiomatic inevitability. What then is to be done?” (1923)

  • Helen4Yemen

    If you are an Ashkennazi (90% of world Jewry) you came from Europe and Europe is your ancestral homeland and not Palestine (inhabited by people of color).

  • Helen4Yemen

    Funny? Imagine if genocide is taking place somewhere and the perpetrators said: “how many Jews died in Europe vs 2 million killed in Sudan is peanuts compared to …yada …yada” a very silly comment.

  • Helen4Yemen

    The Iraq war and ‘Greater Israel

    Here is from Ari Shavit – Haaretz – March 4, 2003

    “In the course of the past year, a new belief has emerged in the town: the belief in war against Iraq. That ardent faith was disseminated by a small group of 25 or 30 neoconservatives, almost all of them JEWISH, almost all of them intellectuals people who are mutual friends and cultivate one another and are convinced that political ideas are a major driving force of history
    a partial list:

    Richard Perle,
    Paul Wolfowitz,
    Douglas Feith,
    William Kristol,
    Eliot Abrams,
    Charles Krauthammer”

  • Helen4Yemen

    Give me one good and valid reason why the European Ashkenazis are still in Palestine whereas they could easily go back home to Europe and they no longer face persecution? why are they lingering?

  • Helen4Yemen
  • Helen4Yemen

    Desmond Tutu : ” I have been to the Occupied Palestinian Territory, and I have witnessed the racially segregated roads and housing that reminded me so much of the conditions we experienced in South Africa under the racist system of Apartheid. I have witnessed the humiliation of Palestinian men, women, and children made to wait hours at Israeli military checkpoints routinely when trying to make the most basic of trips to visit relatives or attend school or college, and this humiliation is familiar to me and the many black South Africans who were corralled and regularly insulted by the security forces of the Apartheid government. In an April 2010 open letter to the University of Berkeley

  • Helen4Yemen

    Funny! You think the Bloomberg’s and Goldberg’s of Europe own Palestine and not the indigenous Palestinians? Funny! The Ashkenazi is on top of Palestine exactly in the same manner as a r3pist.

  • Helen4Yemen

    Where does the right for lily white Ashkenazi Jews from Europe to exist come from?

  • Helen4Yemen

    {knowing what had happened to them in Germany.}

    Then Germany should have allocated a piece of land for them. These Europeans look as alien in Palestine as the white tourists in Thailand or Kenya, very European and very alien.

  • Helen4Yemen

    Keep these facts in mind:

    1. The Arab Jews have nothing in common with the Ashkenazi Jews except for religion but have everything in common with their Arab brothers and sisters except for religion.

    2. Arab Jews are the brothers and sisters of the Arab people but only coreligionists of Ashkenazi Jews.

    3. Arabs Jews lived in peace and harmony with their Arab brothers and sisters while European Jews were hated for centuries.

    4. Arab Jews were brought to Palestine by the white Jews as cheap labor to replace the 900 Palestinians that the Europeans ethnically cleansed from their land.

    5. The arrival of the foreign non-Semitic Ashkenazi Jews from Europe to Arab Palestine disturbed the peaceful coexistence of all Arabs.

  • Helen4Yemen

    1- Who expelled Jews 109 times from Europe?
    2- Who performed dozens of pogroms on Jews?
    3- Who performed the ‘holocaust’?
    Not Arabs! Not Muslims! Right?
    That was done by Christian Europe. Right?

  • Helen4Yemen

    Are you a Semite?

  • Helen4Yemen

    Jesus was an indigenous Jew and not a European Ashkenazi (world Jewry today is 90% Ashkenazi)

  • Helen4Yemen

    Then the Ashkenazi should have stayed in his Europe.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    Yay ethnic cleansing! (NB sarcasm)

  • Zev_disqus

    During the Mandate period, Jews paid proportionately higher taxes than Palestinian Arabs, thus helping to pay for advancing the Arab population. In Judea and Samaria, the Arab standard of living which was stagnant until 1967 rose every year since then, until the first intifada.
    You do not get it?

  • Helen4Yemen

    Where did Ashknazi learn about cultivating the land?

  • Zev_disqus

    Not from the primitive farmers in the neighborhood…

  • Helen4Yemen

    I am from the region, a real Semite and not a wannabe fake European Semite. When I look at the Ashkenazi, I am looking at someone very alien to the region, the Ashkenazi is totally indistinguishable from the rest of the Europeans, because he is a European. Spare us your 1001 hasbara stories. Read how Palestine was stolen and it is archived at none other than the Truman Online Library.

    Note: No Ashkenazi is Semite, I am one and I aught to know.

    https://www.trumanlibrary.org/oralhist/wright.htm

  • LeslieFish

    Quibble, quibble. Where do you think even the Ashkenazi Jews started from? They look like Europeans for the same reason that Chinese Jews look Chinese: the tendency of local rulers to amuse themselves by galloping through the Jewish neighborhood snatching up women for a spot of jolly rape. By Jewish law, the resulting momzers were raised Jewish and claimed by the community. Given a few centuries of this, it’s not surprising that the Jews would come to resemble their neighbors, whoever the neighbors are. If you’re a “pure” Semite, it’s because your great-grandmothers had the peculiar luck to be raped only by Arabs.

    The Truman Library also contains many example of Nazi and Communist political propaganda. You have to go to specialized historical libraries to find the records of those Ottoman Turkish land sales to Jews in Palestine, let alone the ancient records of Arab invasions and land-grabs under the command of Muhammed. If you think “Palestine” was “stolen”, then you should blame the Ottoman Turks, who took it during their conquests. If the Turks hadn’t conquered and claimed it, they couldn’t have sold it to the Jews, right?

  • LeslieFish

    1) Because they bought the land honestly. 2) Because they’re not racists like you.

  • Helen4Yemen

    I said I am a Semite and what I see in Palestine are people who are foreigners, Europeans very vividly Europeans. What part of EUROPEAN do you not get?

    Are the Ashkenazi not Europeans?

    If not, tell me what they are?

  • Helen4Yemen

    Are you aware that European Jews have more than 40 genetic diseases that no other Jews have? While testing for these diseases, genetics scientists discovered that only European Jews were carriers of these Genetic diseases and no Arab Jews were. Test after test revealed that the Arab Jews were free of these diseases. What does that tell you? It tells you scientifically that there is no genetic connection between the white European Jews and the Semitic Jews of the M/E. European Jews are European from time immemorial. Not a single European Jew is a Semite. The Arab Jews are Semites. That is the truth and the undisputed truth.

    Google=>Ashkenazi Genetic diseases
    https://www.google.com/search?q=Ashkenazi+Genetid+diseases&oq=Ashkenazi+Genetid+diseases&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.675j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

  • Helen4Yemen

    ASHKENAZI = KHAZARS

    __1 Shlomo Sand: “It is clear that the fear is of an undermining of the historic right to the land. The revelation that the Jews are not from Judea would ostensibly knock the legitimacy for our being here out from under us. Since the beginning of the period of de colonization, settlers have no longer been able to say simply: ‘We came, we won and now we are here’ the way the Americans, the whites in South Africa and the Australians said. There is a very deep fear that doubt will be cast on our right to exist.”– Shlomo Sand interviewed by Haaretz Why do you think the idea of the Khazar origins is so threatening?”

    __ 2 Shlomo Sand: “Any mention of the Khazars in the public arena in Israel came to be tagged as eccentric, freakish, and even menacing…There was anxiety about the legitimacy of the Zionist project, should it become widely known that the settling Jewish masses were not the direct descendents of the “Children of Israel”- such de-legitimization might lead to a broad challenge against the State of Israel’s right to exist.”

    __ 3 Arthur Koestler: “The large majority of surviving Jews in the world is of Eastern European-and thus perhaps mainly of Khazar origin. If so this would mean that their ancestors came not from the Jordan but from the Volga, not from Canaan but from the Caucasus, once believed to be the cradle of the Aryan race; and that genetically they are more closely related to the Hun, Uigur, and Magyar tribes than to the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Should this turn out to be the case then the term “anti-Semitism” would become void of meaning, based on a misapprehension shared by both the killers and their victims.”

    __ 4 Ralph Schoenman: “Mr. Benjamin Natanayahu is descendant from people who have no relation to Palestine, historic or otherwise, because Ashkenazim or European Jews such as Mr. Natanyahu or ourselves for that matter are in fact descendants of the Khazars, an 8th and 9th century empire that converted to Judaism at that time from which European Jews are descended. Indeed, as I have often discussed, if one wanted scientific data which demonstrates the ethnic origin of European Jewry. Here is the point: European Jews are susceptible to a genetic condition known Tay-Sachs disease, it is analogous to what African Americans suffer, sickle cell anemia. What is interesting about this is that only European Jews are susceptible to this genetic trait. No Semitic people is. That means none of the Jews form the Arab East, Yemen or Iraq or North Africa or any of the areas of the region, because like their Arab brothers and sisters as are the Arab Jews.”

  • Helen4Yemen

    So when the EUROPEAN Ashkenazi claims to be a Semite, are you saying his mama was raped?

  • Helen4Yemen

    This is what Edwin M Wright said:

    “Zionists, since Truman’s decision in 1947-48, have lived in a Fool’s Paradise. They assumed their control of the US government, press and public was permanent and based an “moral” values