5 Reasons We So Blindly Support Israel in Spite of the Truth or Biblical Ethics

5 Reasons We So Blindly Support Israel in Spite of the Truth or Biblical Ethics February 15, 2016

Israel Law Legal System Concept

Over the course of time I’ve noticed a troubling trend: it’s *almost* impossible to have a reasonable discussion with fellow Christians who believe we are called to give unwavering support the modern secular nation state of Israel.

This of course, has led me to try to figure out why this is the case. Why do so many Christians reject basic facts about Israel? Why do so many of us have an aversion to believing truth on this issue?

As your list-maker-in-chief, I have a few ideas as to why this seems to occur. So, here are my 5 reasons so many of us irrationally support Israel– in spite of truth or biblical ethics:

1. Bad theology regarding Israel has led us to become victims of our own confirmation bias.

Confirmation bias is simply the logical fallacy where we only accept information that confirms what we believed at the onset. Essentially, confirmation bias is an unwillingness to consider what’s true. I’ve rarely seen such a strong unwillingness to learn as I do when talking to people about the nation of Israel.

For those of us who grew up in pro-Zionist versions of Christianity, we begin with a strong bend toward confirmation bias. We’re taught a message of, “Israel is God’s chosen nation, and the whole world is trying to wipe them out,” and then flavor that up a bit with a threat that God will curse anyone who doesn’t stand with them. As a result, we have a strong tendency to consume, accept, or interpret information, only in ways that further a narrative where Israel is the good guy.

Unfortunately, the world isn’t so neat and clean as to fit within these narratives– and using them causes us to overlook the reality that the nation of Israel is engaged in some horrible, unjust, and oppressive behaviors. In fact, some of those evil behaviors are even in defiance of international law– and yet we continually find ways to irrationally justify it.

2. We don’t listen to Palestinian voices– not even our Christian brothers and sisters in Palestine.

I’ll be honest– I’ve never met a radically pro-Israel individual who has ever spent much time listening to the voices of average Palestinians. And, why would one need to? To achieve our confirmation bias we have no need to listen to the other side. In fact, many are unaware that there are Christian Palestinians– let alone taken the time to actually listen to them talk about their own lives and their experiences living in occupied Palestine.

If one did, the stories they’d hear would challenge the Americanized version of the narrative we grew up with. Stories of Israeli soldiers demolishing their crops at harvest season, stories of being denied access to basic water while Israelis across the street have enough to water their lawns, stories of being spat upon because they’re Christians, churches being set ablaze by Israelis, or their children being tear gassed on the way to school or terrorized in the night by Israeli soldiers. These are the stories you’ll hear from Palestinian Christians.

Why do so many American Christians dismiss these realities as bogus “propaganda”? It’s because they’ve never taken the time to listen to the Christian voices from Palestine. (But if you’d like to listen to a Christian voice from Palestine, I have an hour long interview you can listen to, here.)

3. Criticism of Israel is criticism of America.

In addition to overt reasons we blindly stand with Israel, I think there are subconscious reasons as well.  Mainly, I believe that it’s impossible to condemn the behavior of Israel without condemning the behavior of America.

Think about it: an entire people group show up and take a land that already has people living there? The indigenous people are then displaced from their lands and homes, their resources are taken from them, and then are terrorized by a foreign army?

Sound remotely familiar? The story of Israel is the story of America. Perhaps that’s why so many love it, while so many find it inherently unjust. One cannot condemn the behavior of Israel without condemning our own– and that, I fear, is too often an unpardonable sin in America.

4. We’re afraid that critiquing the actions of a nation state makes us guilty of being “anti-semitic.”

There’s good reason to fear this one– Christian Zionists will be quick to paint you out as being anti-semitic for expressing even the slightest critique of Israel. But let me be clear: condemning the actions of a nation or culture is not anti-semitic.

Condemning illegal Israeli settlements is no more anti-Jew than criticizing American drone warfare is anti-Christian. This is about the behavior of a government and culture, not about ethnicity or religion.

If it is, the entire Old Testament was written by a bunch of anti-semites. You know all those prophets? Yeah– one of their main jobs was to rebuke Israel for evil and oppressive behavior. In fact, it’s one of the reasons so many of them (including Jesus) ended up dead.

Israel has a long history of twists and turns, sometimes behaving in alignment with God’s ways, and sometimes actively kicking against them. During seasons of the latter, God would raise up prophets to call them to repent– and I believe God is doing the same thing today. Thus, calling on Israel to repent of evil is not anti-semitic– it’s actually the epitome of “biblical.”

5. Standing in solidarity with Muslims would be a big no-no in American Christian culture.

(At this time your honor, I would direct the court to Exhibit A: Wheaton College)

While there are Christian Palestinians, it’s certainly true that the bulk of Palestinians happen to be Muslims– and that I believe creates a major problem for many American Christians. I mean, after all, they are quite often seen as somehow being the “enemy.”

Standing up for these Muslims? Acknowledging they are being oppressed and mistreated? And worse, acknowledging they are being oppressed and mistreated by the country that is supposedly God’s favorite?

Yeah, that’s just too much for most people to deal with. Far easier to stick with the good-guy-bad-guy cowboy narrative, where Muslims are always wearing black hats, than to contend with what may actually be true.

The issue of Israel and Palestine is no small issue– in many respects, the peace of an entire region could depend on whether or not Western influence takes a stand for justice and righteousness.

However, I see little hope of that happening until we become willing to recognize that we have blindly given one side our total loyalty– even in spite of facts, or biblical ethics.

Stay up-to-date! Like the page your childhood pastor probably doesn’t want you to:

"plus it's costing us without giving anything in return."

No, The Bible Doesn’t Command We ..."
"..................................a season of destruction into a season of new creation.Peter? Paul?Me?I think it is His ..."

Sometimes, We’ve Got to Put the ..."
"Yes and restored twice as prophesied. Nothing like that has happened to the Arabs. Israel ..."

5 Reasons Why I’m A Christian ..."
"You cannot make a case by mere assertion. All history, all culture, language, religion, archaeology, ..."

5 Reasons Why I’m A Christian ..."

Browse Our Archives

Follow Us!


TRENDING AT PATHEOS Progressive Christian
What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • Lynn

    The Jewish bible has orders to welcome the stranger and feed the poor. Two things they have gone against in Israel. Does our Christian bible say that the new Jerusalem will be plopped on the same spot as the old one or could it be somewhere else on earth?

  • Robert Skinner

    All religion is based on faith. It comes down to believing in something that cannot be proven so we take a leap of faith. Religion used to harm others is harmful. making a leap of faith to believe in harmful things is wrong. If our faith is about good then we should support good things. Good things do not harm others.

  • Yes!

  • Jody Corless

    I was raised to believe that the Israel spoken of in the likes of Romans chap. 9-11 is a spiritual Israel and has absolutely nothing to do with the physical Israel. Don’t know what to make of Isaiah 45:17-25, were these verses for the historical Israel
    at the time it was written? Thoughts…I personally do not feel we need to defend the nation of Israel aside from the fact that Israel is an ally of the U.S. Those who live there who are Jewish followers of Jesus and Palestinian followers of Jesus will be saved for the same reason any other follower of Jesus will be saved-faith in Jesus and what he did on the cross.

  • Ragnhild Nyström

    I’m happy to say my childhood pastor would not disapprove. On the contrary he would say Yes and Amen to this. He has been to Palestine as a “fellow wanderer” (or whatever they are called in English) for the Palestinians. He is Swedish though and here is not that “strange”, I guess!

  • Premillennial futurist dispensationalism

  • In November of 2001, 20 Palestinians were killed by a bomb planted by Israeli special forces on a path used by Palestinian schoolchildren to get to school. Five children from one family were killed.

    This happened a week before the three bombing attacks made by Palestine that left 26 Israelis dead, followed the very next day by a series of air and land strikes against Palestine made by Sharon who was “defending Israel from aggression.” The Dec. 4 attack on Gaza City injured hundreds of Palestinian schoolchildren who had to be treated in Shifa Hospital.

    Israel has killed a massive amount of Palestinian civilians and Christians as officially sanctioned actions, whereas the majority of Palestinians oppose terrorism.

    This is not to excuse the atrocities of either side, but it’s hardly poor, innocent Israel suffering at the hands of child-killing Palestine.

  • Artistree

    Yes indeed; the Premillennial futurist dispensationalists have tossed away their birthright and inheritance for a bad unbiblical theology.

  • Artistree

    The Torah is loaded with typological and allegorical stories about Jesus of Nazareth, the Shepherd of God’s people, the Messiah. Jesus is the true Israel of God and the Church is His Bride. Those who belong to Jesus are the heirs of the Promises made to Abraham.

  • I am not sure why you are fascinated by Israel and Palestine? The conflict is alive on many levels but the most obvious level is that these two entities are at war with each other. In war there are no winners really. When one side kills many more than the other it usually ends. This conflict will not end that way. This war doesn’t end until the end of this age. This is the fascinating level: prophecy. Israel will be around until the end of the age. No one really knows if the same can be said for the United States.

    Another level is public sympathy for the parties to this war. You can be for or against either side but your position is almost limited to emotion. Most can do nothing substantive except to send money. But to lament about who is right or wrong is just to be opinionated. There are facts and there are emotions. In this conflict neither is particularly compelling.

    Those who would get their information from the religious community are kidding themselves. The preachers and teachers of our day are hopelessly confused, compromised and not very well informed about political issues at all. In any case there is a lot of information available about this subject in the record. The last time you raised this issue you had several posts from people who actually knew something about the history. Believing the West can influence the outcome of this conflict is without foundation. The last President who was really involved got the President of Egypt assassinated. So much for the influence of the West.

  • Chaprich

    Unfortunately, confirmation bias, is behind much of theology/POV that is opposed to same sex relationships. I know because I was guilty of such. The biblical call for justice must compell Christians to evaluate matters in the spirit of the grace, mercy, love, and peace of our Lord Jesus the Messiah.

  • Herm

    Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

    From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000, from the tribe of Asher 12,000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

    Revelation 7:4-8 (NIV2011)

  • You are a precise example of what the author was talking about. You have swallowed the line that it’s “complicated” or that there is no beginning or ending. Sorry, there is no chicken versus egg here.

    Israel was created in the existing state of Palestine against the will of the indigenous Palestinians. That’s all you need to know. There is no doubt about this fact, simply read the Balfour Declaration that gave Israel life.

    Oh. There is one more important thing to know. There is no invisible skydaddy who hands out lands deeds to chosen people, please review who actually wrote that part…

    To believe in such a thing then makes the ethos of Islamic State just as real as the Jewish state. It was never ever a good idea to create a state at the expense of an indigenous people and assign a religious reason for a state’s creation as is being down with both Israel and Islamic State.

    Only justice and international law will end this conflict. Religion must be absolutely left at the door step. I know that bothers a lot of True Believers(tm) who wish for certain things, but those beliefs will have to change or there can never be peace.

    Right now its a ‘my god is bigger than your god’ fight and that just cannot stand as there is no evidence nor proof of any invisible skydaddy nor 72 virgins or paradise.

  • Colin Austin Barnes
  • jekylldoc

    Around the time of the assassination of Rabin, Israel made a transition from being dominated by those who remembered the Nakba, and simply wanted to have a homeland in peace, to being dominated by those who, for religious reasons or otherwise, believe the Palestinians have no right to any of the West Bank and want to complete the ethnic cleansing.

    It follows for the rest of us, that we must make a transition from accepting Israel as a necessary refuge from the hard-heartedness of other cultures (including Christianity), to recognizing that Israel has forgotten how to take moral responsibility for its own behavior.

    I continue to see Holocaust movies, and that is a good thing. We just watched “Woman in Gold.” And I have to ask myself how any Jew can look at that, the dispossession and dehumanization, and not question the behavior of the settlers in the West Bank. I see Europe turning away refugees from Syria and I think of the U.S. turning away the refugees from Nazi Germany.

    How long, oh Lord?

  • Jeremy Moodey

    This is, I am afraid, a thoroughly un-Biblical view. Are you really saying that Israel, in the sense of a modern militaristic state where barely 2% of the population accept Jesus as Messiah, where barely half even have a serious belief in the God of Abraham, and where the state itself is engaged in the unjust and systematic denial of another nation’s basic rights, “leads us to God” (2nd para)? There is not a single verse in the Bible that can justify such a stance. Not one. Click here for a more Biblical analysis, showing why, for Christians, there is only one people of God, those who accept Jesus as their saviour.

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    Hi Jeremy, I replied to an article devoid of any Scripture with an article which references numerous specific Scriptures, and also sought to understand the general flow of the Biblical revelation concerning it. You object to a comment in the introductory section, and ignore the rest of the article which seeks to flesh it out.
    You seem to suggest that God is finished with Israel as a nation (which, incidentally, is what the enemies of God do in Psalm 83:3-4; “Come,” they say, “let us destroy them as a nation, that the name of Israel be remembered no more.”)
    In any event, the disciples ask Jesus this very question in Acts 1. “Lord, are you at this time going to RESTORE the kingdom to Israel?” Peter, who was present during that exchange, speaks in Acts 3 to the Jewish people, and declares that Jesus “must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to RESTORE everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.” This is the same Jesus whom Paul wrote came “to confirm the promises given to the Patriarchs.” So, one question is (and I would again refer you to the article for a better general discussion of the topic), did God give national promises to the Prophets and Patriarchs, and do these relate to Jesus, the Son of David? Read Jeremiah 31, Isaiah 61, Ezekiel 36:24 ” ‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land”, Ezekiel 37, Psalm 105; 6-11 O descendants of Abraham his servant, O sons of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. He remembers his covenant forever, the word he commanded, for a thousand generations, the covenant he made with Abraham, the oath he swore to Isaac. He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree, to Israel as an everlasting covenant: “To you I will give the land of Canaan as the portion you will inherit.”

    And the list goes on. These promises do exist, and it is in Jesus, the son of David that all God’s promises find their yes and amen.

  • It’s sort of a Biblical view. Thousands of years ago, Abraham and his descendants were chosen to be a blessing to the nations and a light to the Gentiles. These descendants were given the Law and the Prophets, and the Messiah came from them to save them from their oppressors.

    In his death and resurrection, the Messiah tore down the dividing wall of the Torah and opened Abraham’s promise to the Gentiles, making one new people out of faithful Jews and faithful Gentiles. There is now, in Christ, neither Jew nor Gentile. But a great many Jews and Gentiles preferred the powers of this world. As Paul tells us very plainly, “Not all are Israel who are of Israel.”

    There is exactly zero significance to being an ethnic Jew after the work of Jesus Christ.

    Add to this the fact that the nation-state of Israel as it exists now has virtually no connection to the Israel of Biblical writings.

  • There is no biblical prophecy that says the nation-state of Israel will be around to the end of the age. If there were, it was obviously wrong because the nation-state of Israel as we know it didn’t exist until the 1940s.

  • Author needs to back up his assertions with actual verifiable facts with actual LINKS to them and references. Otherwise this comes across as nothing more than Anti-Israeli Palestinian-Nazi propaganda.

  • nabil89

    I live “around” Israel, in Lebanon. I am originally from Palestine. Here I am, alive and well, and speaking English. I am pursuing a doctorate in philosophy. I object to being called a Barbarian. I object as well to the oppression which Jews went through.
    That being said, Zionists did not have, and do not have, the right to take the house where my grandparents lived without paying them any money for it (which is what happened to them in 1948 – they were there and experienced it – now tell me they were hallucinating?). That behavior is barbaric. Nevertheless, I will not call you or Zionists in generally barbaric. Misinformed, yes. Pitiful, yes. Barbaric, never. We are all humans :)

  • nabil89

    Thank you again Ben for writing on this topic. As a Palestinian Lebanese I feel hope and joy when the story of my people is spoken out loud.
    May peace and reconciliation come between the Arabs and the Jews. But first, the truth must be said.
    Thank you and God bless you.
    Please keep speaking up for justice! You are speaking on behalf of millions of voice-less Palestinians…

  • JD

    Godwin rearing it’s ugly, yet predictable, head.

  • JD

    if anyone is interested in seeing what Palestinians have to deal with in their daily lives, I’d highly recommend following ‘Christian Peacemaker Teams – Palestine’.

  • otrotierra

    Thank you for sharing. Indeed, Jesus and The Greatest Commandment will always be greater than U.S. Evangelical lust for more war.

  • RandyBarge

    “These promises do exist, and it is in Jesus, the son of David that all God’s promises find their yes and amen.”

    I would at least agree with this last statement that you made. The New Testament view is that the promises of God made to Abraham and the patriarchs have been fulfilled in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. The promises that God made to Abraham was that Abraham’s descendants would be numerous and be blessing to the whole world. Yes, there was the promise of land. But that promise was always conditional upon Israel obeying the commandments of the Lord(Deuteronomy 30:15-20). Unfortunately, Israel was unfaithful, the point that the prophets made again and again. And they were therefore, separated from the land and no longer able to control their national destiny. The question is that in the face of Israel’s unfaithfulness, would God continue to fulfill the promises that God made to Abraham? The answer of course, is yes. God would keep God’s promises. The promises were fulfilled in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus is not only Israel’s king. He is the faithful remnant of Israel who was completely obedient to God. Now all of those who are in Christ (Jews and Gentiles) are the new covenant people. They are the new Israel. They are the descendants of Abraham. This is the point that Paul is making in the book of the Romans: The new covenant people are on a new exodus. But the new promised land is not a piece of real estate in the middle east, but rather the renewal of the whole world that is now groaning under the travails of sin.

  • JD

    Even if one believes the current nation state of Israel is the same Israel of the OT covenant, it doesn’t change how the church is supposed to treat the situation. We aren’t in the business of picking sides in a violent and murderous war. We are to be a refuge for the broken. We are to be peacemakers. We are to come to the middle and, through self-sacrificial Christ-like love, show the warring sides a different way. We are to show them a way centered on love and forgiveness. We are to show them the Jesus Way. This means condemning violence on both sides and seeking to serve and heal the broken, regardless of which side of the fight they are on.

    We condemn the brutal oppression and subjugation of the Palestinian people. We condemn the indiscriminate killing and attacks committed against the Israeli people. We embrace and model the Jesus Way…the way of nonviolence, forgiveness and love.

  • kirby1

    There is no such country as Palestine. ‘Palestine’ is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. ‘Palestine’ is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it.” – Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Syrian Arab leader

    “There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people.” – Syrian dictator Hafez Assad to the PLO leader Yassir Arafat

    “There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not.” – Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian

    “It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but Southern Syria.” – Representative of Saudi Arabia at the United Nations

    “Palestine and Jordan are one…” -King Abdullah in 1948

    “The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan.” – King Hussein of Jordan, in 1981

    Jordanians, for decades, were avid proponents of the ‘Jordan is Palestine’ position. They used that position as justification for the annexation of Judea and Samaria, arguing that Palestine was one single, indivisible unit, and that Jordan was the legitimate governing body of Palestine…

    “We are the government of Palestine, the army of Palestine and the refugees of Palestine.” -Prime Minister of Jordan, Hazza’ al-Majali, 23 August 1959

    “Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine; there is one people and one land, with one history and one and the same fate.” -Prince Hassan, brother of King Hussein, addressing the Jordanian National Assembly, 2 February 1970

    “Jordan is not just another Arab state with regard to Palestine, but rather, Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan in terms of territory, national identity, sufferings, hopes and aspirations.” -Jordanian Minister of Agriculture, 24 September 1980

    As “Palestinian” politician Zouhair Moussein told the Dutch newspaper Trouw in 1977 (Israel Matzav):

    “The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people’ to oppose Zionism.

    “For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jersusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan. There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity… yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel.”

  • kirby1

    Israel “Palestine” in the 1800s – massive Arab immigration following Jews’ return = the true origin of the (today’s) so called “Palestinians”
    Most Palestinian Arabs are descendants of the 1845-1947 Muslim migrants from the Sudan, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, as well as from Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Yemen, Libya, Morocco, Bosnia, the Caucasus, Turkmenistan, Kurdistan, India, Afghanistan and Balochistan.

    Arab migrant workers were imported by the Ottoman Empire and by the British Mandate (which defeated the Ottomans in 1917) to work on infrastructure projects: The port of Haifa, the Haifa-Qantara (1918), Haifa-Edrei (1905), Haifa-Nablus (1914) and Jerusalem-Jaffa (1892) railroads, military installations, roads, quarries, reclamation of wetlands, etc. Legal and illegal Arab laborers were also attracted by the relative economic boom, stimulated by the annual Jewish immigration beginning in 1882.

    Demographer U.O. Schmelz’s analysis of the Ottoman registration data for 1905 populations of Jerusalem and Hebron kazas (Ottoman districts), by place of birth, showed that of those Arab Palestinians born outside their localities of residence, approximately half represented intra-Palestine movement—from areas of low-level economic activity to areas of higher-level activity—while the other half represented Arab immigration into Palestine itself, 43 percent originating in Asia, 39 percent in Africa, and 20 percent in Turkey.

    The great economic development of the coastal plains—largely due to Jewish immigration—was accompanied both in 1922-1931 and in 1931-1944 by a much stronger increase of the Muslim and Christian populations in this region than that registered in other regions. This was probably due to two reasons: stronger decrease in mortality of the non-Jewish population in the neighborhood of Jewish areas and internal migration toward the more developed zones.

    How odd that such last names as al-Masri (the Egyptian,), al-Djazair (the Algerian), el-Mughrabi (the Moroccan), al-Yamani (the Yemenite) and even al-Afghani are so common among those claiming to be “Palestinians.”

    Today’s Palestinians are immigrants from many nations: “Balkans, Greeks, Syrians, Latins, Egyptians, Turks, Armenians, Italians, Persians, Kurds, Germans, Afghans, Circassians, Bosnians, Sudaneese, Samaritans, Algerians, Motawila, Tartars, Hungarians, Scots, Navarese, Bretons, English, Franks, Ruthenians, Bohemians, Bulgarians, Georgians, Syrians, Persian Nestorians, Indians, Copts, Maronites, and many others.” (DeHass, History, p. 258. John of Wurzburg list from Reinhold Rohricht edition, pp. 41, 69).

    There are villages populated wholly by settlers from other portions of the Turkish Empire in the 19th century. There are villages of Bosnians, Circassians, and Egyptians. -Parkes, James William, History of the Peoples of Palestine, Hammondsworth, Great Britain, 1970, p. 212.

    There are very large contingents from the Mediterranean countries, especially Armenia, Greece, and Italy, Turkomen settlers, a fairly large Afghan colony, Motawila, immigrants from Persia, tribes of Kurds, a Bosnian colony, Circassian settlements, a large Algerian element, Sudanese… -Encyclopedia Brittanica, 1911 ed

  • Jeanne Fox

    For many years,Jack Chick advocated the idea that countries that don’t support modern Israel are cursed by God: chick.com/m/reading/tracts/readtract.asp?stk=1000

  • kirby1

    Here are some of the most common family names among the “Palestinians”:

    “Masri” = from Egypt-Hamas member of Parliament, Mushir al-Masri (the word “masri” littelery means “the egyptian” in arabic !).
    “Khamis”= Bahrain “Salem Hanna Khamis” “al-Faruqi”= Mosul, Iraq
    “al-Araj” = Morocco, a member of the Saadi Dynasty “Hussein al-Araj”
    “al Lubnani” = the Lebanese
    “al-Mughrabi” = the Moroccan (Maghreb” – meaning “West” in Arabic, and usually referring to North Africa or specifically to Morocco)
    “al-Djazair” = the Algerian
    “al-Yamani” = the Yemeni “Issam Al Yamani”
    “al-Afghani” = the Afghan
    “al-Hindi” = the Indian “Amin al-Hindi”
    “Iraqi” = from Iraq.
    “halabi” = from Aleppo, Syria
    “El Baghdadi” = from Baghdad Iraq.
    “Tarabulsi”= Tarabulus-Tripoli, Lebanon.
    “Hourani” = Houran Syria.
    “al-Husayni” = Saudi Arabia.
    “Saudi” = Saudi Arabia.
    “Metzarwah”= Egypt.
    “Barda—wil” = “Salah Bardawil” HAMAS legislator in Gaza; Egypt, Bardawil Lake area.
    “Nashashibi” = Syria.
    “Bushnak” = Bosnia
    “zoabi”= from Iraq: “Haneen Zoabi”.
    “Turki” = Turkey “Daud Turki”
    “al-Kurd” = Kurdistan.
    “Haddadins” = YEMEN descended from Ghassanid Christian Arabs.
    “Arab Abu-Kishk” = Egypt.(Bedouins)
    “Arab al shakirat” = Egypt (Bedouins)
    “Arab al zabidat” = Egypt (Bedouins)
    “Arab al aramsha” = Egypt (Bedouins)

  • kirby1

    Do you have a link to a legitimate source for your Nov 2001 myth.

  • kirby1

    Have not found the Nov. Incident you refer to but have found the following:

    January 1 – Netanya center bombing: 54 people are injured when a car, containing 44 pounds of explosives, explodes near a bus stop in Netanya’s shopping district. Hamas claimed responsibility.[4]January 17 – Murder of Ofir Rahum: A 24-year-old female Palestinian activist from Bir Nabala, manages to seduce the 16-year-old Israeli high school student Ofir Rahumthrough an Online chat by pretending to be an American tourist and invites him to meet her in Jerusalem for a seemingly romantic meeting. She manages to drive him to a remote area in the outskirts of Ramallahwhere a Palestinian terrorist cell shows up and kills Rahum.[5]March 1 – Mei Ami junction bombing: An Israeli is killed and nine other people are injured when a Palestinian suicide bomber detonates a bomb in a service taxi. Hamas claimed responsibility.[6]March 4 – Netanya bombing: 3 elderly Israelis are killed in a suicide bombing in downtown of the coastal city of Netanya.Hamas claims responsibility.[7]March 26 – Murder of Shalhevet Pass: a Palestinian sniper killed the 10-month-old Israeli infant Shalhevet Pass in the Avraham Avinu neighborhood in Hebron.March 27 – Talpiot industrial zone bombing: 7 people are injured when a car explodes during the morning rush hour in the Talpiot neighborhood in southeast Jerusalem. Palestinian Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.[8]March 27 – Egged bus No. 6 French Hilljunction bombing: 28 people were injured, two seriously, in a suicide bombing on a northbound No. 6 bus at the French Hill Junction. Hamas claimed responsibility.[9]March 28 – Mifgash Shalom attack: 3 Israelis are killed in a suicide bombing.Hamas claims responsibility.[10]April 16 – Five mortar shells land, for the first time in the history of Israel, in the Israeli city Ashdod.April 22 – Kfar Saba bombing: A Palestinian Arab suicide bomber kills an Israeli doctor of American origin in Kfar Saba and injures 60 others. Hamas claims responsibility.[11][12]April 23 – Or Yehuda bombing: 8 people are lightly injured when a car explodes in the town of Or Yehuda. Hamas claimed responsibility. Hamas claimed responsibility.[13]May 8 – Murder of Koby Mandell and Yosef IshranMay 18 – Kenyon HaSharon bombing: 5 Israelis are killed in a suicide bombing in a shopping mall in Netanya and over 100 are wounded. Hamas claims responsibility.[14]May 25 – Hadera bus station suicide bombing: at least 12 people are injured when a car explodes near the bus station in the cityHadera. Hamas claimed responsibility.[15]May 27 – Jerusalem bombings: two car bombs explode in the center of Jerusalem. The explosions caused no serious injuries.PFLP claimed responsibility.[16]May 30 – Netanya school bombing: a car bomb explodes outside a school in the coastal city of Netanya. The explosion caused no serious injuries. Palestinian Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.[17]June 1 – Dolphinarium discotheque suicide bombing: A Hamas suicide bomber blows himself up at the entrance of a club on a beachfront in Tel Aviv. 21 Israelis are killed and 132 were wounded, all youths.[18][19][20][21]June 22 – Dugit bombing: 2 Israeli soldiers are killed when a Booby trapped car explodes near the Jewish settlement of Dugit. Hamas claimed responsibility.[22]July 2 – Yehud suburb bombing: 2 bombs which were planted in cars of 2 Yehud residents explode. The explosion caused no serious injuries. PFLP claimed responsibility.[23]July 9 – Kissufim bombing: A Palestinian suicide bomber detonates his car near a in the Southern Gaza Strip crossing point of Kissufim. The explosion caused no serious injuries. Hamas claimed responsibility.[24][25]July 16 – Binyamina Railway Stationbombing: 2 Israeli soldiers are killed and 8 civilians are injured when a Palestinian suicide bomber detonates himself near the entrance to the Binyamina railway station.[26]August 7 – Zohar Shurgi, 40, of moshavYafit, was fatally shot in a drive-by shootingon Trans-Samaria Highway.[27]August 9 – Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing: A Palestinian suicide bomber wearing an explosive belt weighing five to ten kilograms, containing explosives, nails, nuts and bolts, detonates his bomb. In the blast 15 people (including seven children) are killed, and 130 wounded. Both Hamas and theIslamic Jihad initially claim responsibility.[28]August 12 – Wall-Street cafe bombing: One Israeli is killed and 15 others are injured when a Palestinian suicide bomber detonates himself at the “Wall-Street” cafe in Kiryat Motzkin. The Islamic Jihad claim responsibility.[29]August 21 – Russian Compound bombing: Palestinian militants explode a bomb in the center of Jerusalem. The explosions caused no serious injuries.[30]September 4 – Jerusalem car bombings: Four bombs explode at the same time in Jerusalem. The explosions caused no serious injuries.[31]September 9 – Nahariya train station suicide bombing: an Arab-Israeli who was sent by Hamas detonates himself on the crowded platform of the Nahariya Railway Station, killing 3 Israelis and injuring 94. Hamas claim responsibility.[32]September 9 – Beit Lid Junction bombing: 12 Israelis are injured when 2 car bombs explode near a bus at the Beit Lid junction near Netanya. The Islamic Jihad claim responsibility.[33]September 15 – Meir Weisshaus, 23, of Jerusalem, was fatally shot in a drive-by shooting on the Ramot-French Hill road.[34]October 1 – Talpiot neighborhood bombingOctober 7 – Erez Crossing bombingOctober 7 – Kibbutz Shluhot bombingOctober 17 – Assassination of Rehavam Ze’evi: The Israeli tourism minister Rehavam Zeevi is assassinated in Jerusalem Hyatt hotel by four Palestinian Arab gunmen, members of the PFLP terrorist organizationNovember 4 – Shoshana Ben Ishai, 16, ofBetar Illit, and Menashe (Meni) Regev, 14, of Jerusalem were killed when a Palestinian terrorist opened fire with a sub-machine gun shortly before 16:00 at a No. 25 Egged bus at the French Hill junction in northern Jerusalem. 45 people were injured in the attack.[35]November 26 – Erez Crossing bombingNovember 29 – Egged bus 823 bombing: Three people are killed and nine wounded in a suicide bombing of a bus near Hadera. BothIslamic Jihad and Fatah claime responsibility.December 1 – Ben Yehuda Street BombingDecember 2 – Haifa bus 16 suicide bombingDecember 5 – Hilton Mamilla bombingDecember 9 – Check Post Junction bombingDecember 12 – Neve Dekalim bombing

  • JD

    So? Also, why do you put quotes around Palestinians? There are last names from all over the world here in America. It doesn’t make them any less American. Perhaps I’m just not getting what your actual point is.

  • JD

    Ah, Jack Chick. I grew up in the fundie baptist bubble. It’s a miracle, and a testament of God’s mercy and grace, that I didn’t reject Him altogether after growing up with such a distorted view of God.

  • RandyBarge

    Amen.

  • Kimbrough Leslie

    Two points: 1) despite the ravings of Israeli right-wing politicians and “settlers,” the modern state of Israel is overwhelmingly secular–not the successor to ancient biblical Israel (and not even recognized as legitimate by some Hasidim). 2) Milennialist “Christians” misinterpreting the Bible through a Darbyist lens are ultimately anti-Semitic in that they believe Jews will eventually be forced to convert or perish (not to mention that Arabs are also a Semitic people.)

  • otrotierra

    It is shocking for U.S. Evangelicals to learn that most residents of Israeli Occupation are not observant, practicing Jews.

  • How about the PCHR’s annual report for 2001? Check out Effects on Palestinian Children round about the end of page 16:

    http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/Reports/English/pdf_annual/ann_rep_01.pdf

    It also contains footnotes for further source research for you. Apparently, the Israeli military admitted to this one.

    The PHCR has an annual report for each year, so you’re welcome to read the rest.

  • Well, I just Googled for it, so I don’t know why you had such a hard time.

    I am impressed by your ability to copy and paste from a Wikipedia entry. That doesn’t seem to square with your demand of me for primary sources, but whatever.

  • Here are the UN estimates of child deaths due to Israel’s attack on Gaza in 2014. HINT: It’s 448.

    http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_sitrep_08_08_2014.pdf

  • Jeff Preuss

    We’ve recently made friends with an Israeli-born, non-practicing Jew who lives here in the US. He has grave concerns about his home country’s culture of violence, and he worries for both sides of the conflict, but mostly for those many many people who are caught in the middle of it, and wish to live in peace with each other.

  • kirby1

    Thank you very much, but unfortunately PCHRGAZA a well know pro-Palestinian propaganda organization and does not come close to my request for a legitimate source, even the Electra-Intafada has footnotes does not make it a reliable source.

  • kirby1

    No where in that document does it refer to an incident occurring on Nov about Israel planting a bomb.

    As far as the civil loss of life please take you concern to Hamas who have initiated the conflict then used its own civilian as human shields.

    False, not even the BBC, New York Times nor Time magazine believe the numbers put out by Hamas, only the duplicity of UN uses them verbatim from the terrorist group. If you have a problem with the civilian causality take it up with Hamas since they initiated the aggression, continued launching 13,000 rockets into civilian areas, used their own civilians as human shields, used UN facilities to store rockets and fire and using hospitals for military operations.

    “Hamas’s @Alqassambrigade account spent the day falsifying its military activities, claiming that Hamas was shelling military targets, when in fact most of the rockets from the Gaza Strip were aimed at Israel’s civilian population.

    Just a few example of Palestinian PR
    The Palestinians counted people twice. They also included the names of people killed accidentally and deliberately by Hamas.
    At least 71 of the list were terrorists, but in some cases, they “died twice” because death notices were announced both by Hamas and by Palestinian Authority interior security forces.
    “Dual identity allows Hamas to employ many military operatives in the security forces, give their activity governmental legitimacy, and pay them salaries intended for members of the security forces in the Gaza Strip,” ITIC explained.
    Palestinians also list terrorists as civilians. Ibrahim Jamal Kamal Nasser was a member of the Abu Rish Brigade. Though twenty-six, he was described to the UN as a thirteen-year-old boy
    Elder of Ziyon is compiling a list of dead terrorists identified to the UN and “human rights” groups as civilians.
    Mahmoud Abbas said that 861 Fatah members were killed in the war. Although he declined to state whether or not they were fighting, the number is very specific, and I would guess that nearly all were terrorists.
    “Human rights” groups hostile to Israel believe that the Palestinians include in their death toll victims of domestic violence and those who died of natural causes.
    Finally, the Palestinian death list includes people who are still alive. The most famous is Salem Shamaly, the Man in the Green Shirt, allegedly shot by an Israeli sniper in Shijaiyah on July 20, 2014.
    At the beginning of the ground phase Hamas set off over 1000 improvised explosive devices (IEDs). Each of these explosives destroyed multiple houses.

  • jekylldoc

    The point is to deny legitimacy so as to whitewash the action. That much is obvious.
    Imagine Americans claiming it was okay to take the land of Native Americans because they all moved around anyway, so they didn’t really possess the land. That would give you the flavor.

  • So, an internationally recognized human rights organization THAT IS A CONSULTANT FOR THE UN is unreliable, but copying and pasting Wikipedia is 100% authoritative. Got it.

    Here’s the footnote for that item:

    On 24 November, an Israeli military spokesman stated that an initial investigation concluded that Israeli forces planted the bomb in the area, from where Palestinian gunmen used to fire at bases near “Gani Tal” settlement, but results of the investigation were not released. PCHR sent an appeal to high-level UN officials stressing the need for a thorough international investigation of all willful killings of Palestinian children in the OPT since 29 September 2000, as well as for immediate international protection for Palestinian civilians in the OPT. The appeal was sent to: Olara Otunnu, Special Representative of the Secretary General for Children and Armed Conflict; Terje RoedLarsen, United Nations Special C

  • jekylldoc

    kirby1 –
    It is time that Israel stopped arguing about right. Everyone knows it was not right to evict the Palestinians, just as everyone knows they were not right to want Jews excluded. The thing is done. The intolerable is tolerated, because it was done out of desperation.

    Moving on means making peace. The only alternative is intolerable action which cannot be justified.

  • I appreciate your honesty that killing hundreds of children is ok if Israel does it as a military action.

  • kirby1

    Interesting no where in any of even you biased sources does it refer to some bomb being planted by Israel.

  • kirby1

    “Israel sought to avoid the conflict and exercised great restraint over a period of months before the war when its citizens were targeted by sporadic rocket attacks from Gaza. Once the war had begun, Israel made repeated efforts to terminate the fighting. The war that Israel was eventually compelled to fight against Hamas and other Gaza extremists was a legitimate war, necessary to defend its citizens and its territory against sustained attack from beyond its borders.”
    The report also dealt with Hamas using its own civilians as ‘human shields’ against the IDF. They cited as sources IDF videos, media footage, and even confirmation from Hamas officials and UN officials.
    “Hamas launched attacks against Israel from the heart of its own civilian communities in Gaza and positioned its munitions and military forces there also, including in schools, hospitals and mosques…Hamas even used UN facilities for storing munitions and launching attacks.”
    The committee also blamed Hamas of breaking international law by using human shields and for not ensuring the safety of its own civilians by evacuating them.
    “There are documented cases of them compelling civilians to remain in or return to places where they expected Israeli attacks to come.”
    The study examined the IDF’s actions and concluded in its favor.
    “We believe that in general Israeli forces acted proportionately as required by the laws of armed conflict and often went beyond the required legal principles of proportionality, necessity and discrimination…The measures taken were often far in excess of the requirements of the Geneva Conventions. They sometimes placed Israeli lives at risk. To an extent these steps also undermined the effectiveness of the IDF’s operations.”
    Giulio Terzi – former Foreign Minister of Italy.
    General Klaus Naumann – former Chief of Staff of the Bundeswehr and Chairman of the NATO Military Committee.
    General Vincenzo Camporini – former Chief of the Defence Staff of Italy.
    Admiral Jose Maria Teran – former Chief of the Joint Staff of Spain.
    Ambassador Pierre-Richard Prosper – former US State Department Ambassador at Large for war crimes issues.
    Mr Rafael Bardaji – former National Security Adviser for the Spanish government.
    Lieutenant General David A Deptula – former Standing Joint Force Air Component Commander, United States Pacific Command.
    Major General Jim Molan – former Chief of Operations, Headquarters Multi National Force, Iraq and Commander of the Australian Defence College.
    Colonel Eduardo Ramirez – Member of Colombian Congress and former Chief of Security, Colombia.
    Colonel Vincent Alcazar – former senior United States Air Force officer in Iraq and Afghanistan.
    Colonel Richard Kemp – former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan.

  • Well, you’ve already decided that an organization whose director won the Robert F. Kennedy Memorial Prize for Human Rights who is a consultant organization to the UN is not credible, and there’s nothing I can do about that. But obviously that is my source. I don’t know what your objection is, here.

    And the UN says Israel killed 448 children in their assault on Gaza. Was that ok or not?

  • kirby1

    First of all, 80% of the promised Jewish homeland was given to a Hashemite outsider, and called (Trans)Jordan. Then, the Jews agreed to split up the remaining 20% with the Arabs (there were no Arab “Palestinians” then), but of course even the idea of a microscopic sovereign Jewish presence in ‘Dar al Islam’ was too much to stomach, hence the immediate move by 5 Arab armies to attempt to destroy the new State, which by the way, had been declared by Ben Gurion only in the tiny 10% left to the Jews by the Partition Plan. The only reason there are refugees at all is because the Arabs went to war……period.
    The settlements are simply a red herring put to good use by arab (and the “Liberal West”) propaganda. Israelis have shown that for real peace, they’re willing to tear Jews from their homes (see Yamit in the Sinai). Unfortunately, the Palestinians have never shown an iota of good will or desire for peace. Why is it only the Israelis must show compromise and good will?. The PLO charter has never been revised (they lied), and their PA controlled school curriculum has always, to this day, taught Palestinian children that Jewish history on the land is a lie, and both the education system, and the PA controlled media has never…never made an effort to prepare the people for peace between us. Quite the opposite.
    Sorry, but the onus is on the Palestinians to show us that they would live in peace beside us. 90% of Israelis would be happy to rid ourselves of the Palestinians once we truly believed that we wouldn’t be getting rockets from Kalkilya in return.

    Most Palestinians descend from immigrants who came from throughout the Muslim world between 1845 and 1947. Simon Sebag Montefiore provides similar data in his new book, Jerusalem: The Biography, as a New York Times reviewer noted: From 1919-38, for instance, 343,000 Jews and 419,000 Arabs immigrated to the area, meaning Arab Johnny-come-latelies significantly outnumbered the Jewish ones.
    Furthermore, the Arab population of Palestine increased the most in cities where there were large numbers of Jews, which is a strong indication that Arabs were drawn to Palestine because of the Zionists. Between 1922 and 1947, the Arab population grew by 290 per cent in Haifa, 158 per cent in Jaffa and 131 per cent in Jerusalem. Tellingly, the growth in Arab-majority towns was far less dramatic: 37 per cent in Bethlehem, 42 per cent in Nablus and 78 per cent in Jenin.

  • kirby1

    Still no source for that November Bomb planted by Israeli forces, why am I not surprised.

  • kirby1

    “In November of 2001, 20 Palestinians were killed by a bomb planted by Israeli special forces”
    – Give the source with a link, put up or shut up.

  • kirby1

    I see Lybia has won a seat on the UN Human Rights Council, very impressive-says a lot about the UN.

  • kirby1

    Or it could be the fact that, as their last name states, the vast majority of so-called Palestinians migrated to the area at the same time the early Zionist did following the better economical environment. Even a simpleton such as yourself can follow that.

  • kirby1

    Looks like for Ben and many of his readers the existence of a Jewish state invalidates their Supersessionism theology (also called replacement theology or fulfillment theology), sorry.

  • Jeanne Fox

    Those Chick tracts are notorious for their conspiracy theories, misinformation, and stereotypes.

  • JD

    Not at all, but your previous posts indicate that there is no reason to believe civil discourse is possible so there’s really not much point to elaborate. Name-calling and harsh tones only drives people away from constructive dialogue. Unfortunately, when they leave, the source of the harsh tones takes it as indication of victory.

  • kirby1

    Looks like even bringing up the subject has infuriated you. Thank you for again displaying your hostile, uncivil response and above all your inability to address the issue.

  • RandyBarge

    The existence of a “Jewish” state doesn’t invalidate anything except the standards of a modern, inclusive democratic polity that is not based on race or religion. As for the Christian belief that in Christ the dividing barriers have been overcome, that theology continues unabated Jewish state or no Jewish state.

  • So, is it ok for Israel to kill 448 children?

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    Then what do you do with this verse? Romans 11:28 “As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,” Here in a passage about the Jewish people Paul says at present there are many Jews who have not believed the Gospel. Yes, they each need salvation (Romans 10:1), but does Paul say there is there zero significance to being an ethnic Jew? No. He says that even while they are “enemies of the Gospel”, so it is not believing Jews he is writing about, yet they remain “loved on account of the Patriarchs.”

  • I did give you a link. Do you have some kind of short term memory issue? You just arbitrarily decided it wasn’t credible. I have a feeling I could supply fifty links and you would explain to me why they are all not credible.

    Further, I don’t know why you are fixated on this one incident. If you don’t agree that incident happened, surely you agree the UN’s report on the Gaza attack is at least vaguely credible, right? That’s almost 450 children. If you think that the PCHR is lying, fine. What about all the rest?

  • He is talking about the Jews who will come to faith after the judgment falls on Israel. This is the point of quoting Isaiah. He is not saying every Jew is elect. In Romans 9, he quite clearly designates some of them as vessels prepared for destruction. In the early part of Romans 9, he says that the reason God’s promises don’t fail is because unfaithful Israel is not really Israel.

    In the Isaiah quotation, Israel is judged, then the remnant comes to repentance. This is the future Paul sees for the Jews who were enemies of the Gospel at the time of that writing but would convert after judgment. He by no means is saying every ethnic Jew is elect, because he says the exact OPPOSITE of that in Romans 9. He means every “true” Jew is elect, even if they are at the time of his writing enemies.

  • kirby1

    What don’t you understand about a credible link, not some anonymous source in footnote of a well known Palestinian mouthpiece.

    Take you concerns about civilian cassualties to Hamas who used them as human shields, using UN schools, apartment complex, hospitals and mosques to fire from and launch rockets. Even telling it citizens not to listen to Israel’s warnings about specific targets.

    When a criminal takes hostages the well being of those hostages are the responsibility of the criminal, so please take your complaints to Hamas.

  • jekylldoc

    kirby1 –
    if the Jews who were in Palestine in 1920 had been summarily evicted, as so many were from Arab lands after 1967, you would be able to recognize that a wrong had been done. Israel did not clear the Palestinians out of so many places because they were temporary squatters, nor investigate which were long-time residents and which were first generation immigrants. Palestinians were evicted mainly because there was conflict, and secondarily to create “facts on the ground.”
    Neither I nor most Americans want to paint Israel as terrible bad guys. But just as we Americans have to recognize that a wrong was done to Native Americans, so Israel must recognize its own ethnic cleansing. I understand that there is still a dire sense of vulnerability and threat. No one thinks making peace will be easy. But Israel must avoid being blinded by its own rhetoric. Wrong is wrong.

  • So was it ok for Israel to kill those children, then?

  • Romeo Fulga

    The ignorance of this author regarding Islam and “Palestinians” is mind boggling. That is all I have to say. The left is responsible for the collapse of the western world. Muslims being oppressed and mistreated??? Wow. Mister ignoramus, just wait and see how Muslims will treat your head when they become the majority in our country. Luckily for you, America is not in danger yet, but you will see it in Europe in about 2-3 generations from now

  • jekylldoc

    kirby1 –

    The settlements are illegal. They are not a red herring. If not for the settlement movement having been tolerated, Rabin would not have been assassinated.

    I don’t dispute the other information you provide. What you need to understand is how credibility works. This will be easier if you think about it in some unrelated sphere, such as the credibility of Putin or the credibility of al-Sisi. If it is plain that you are only telling an advocacy side of the story, then no one is going to respond as if you have presented a fair and balanced picture of the situation.

    And if you only tell yourself why the other side is wrong, then you will begin to accept the illegal acts of the settlers, even though they are also wrong. This is not a healthy psychological state.

  • Excellent argumentation, dude. I think I just learned everything I need to know about Logos “Reformed” Ministries.

  • kirby1

    Actually settlements are legal that’s why they are referred to “disputed territories” not “occupied territories” in the original UN resolution that ended hostilities. Remember in ’67 five Arab armies stated objective was to destroy Israel and follow through with another genocide not seen since WWII. Israel specifically pleaded with Jordan not to attack, long story short -don’t attack and then whine when you loss. Israel is not required to go back to an indefensible borders (actually it was the 48 armistice line that the Arabs said was not a border).

    In 2005 the last Israeli left Gaza, after which Gazians not only elected the terrorist group Hamas but have continued to carry out terrorist attack against Israel including the launching of 20,000 rockets. If Israel were to do the same in Judea and Samara they would end up with Gaza East, just another terrorist state. In any case 95% of Palestinian are not under Israeli authorities but under Hamas or the PA.

  • Bones

    You need to talk to Palestinian Christians instead of propaganda from the internet.

    Settlements are a red herring?

    Yeah right.

  • kirby1

    If you threaten to take your children’s life if I don’t shoot myself, am I to blame?
    Take your complaint to Hamas,or maybe you refer to them as freedom fighters.

  • Romeo Fulga

    For argumentation I say open your eyes and do some reading on Islam.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Again with quotes around Palestinians. Is there a point you folks (at least, you and kirby1) are trying to get across with that?

  • That makes absolutely no sense and does not answer my question. We are not debating whether or not Hamas or random terrorists have done terrible things. They have. You used a schoolbus bombing as a very good example.

    The problem is, Israel has killed tons of children, but this doesn’t bother you at all.

    I want you to put into writing that you affirm the following:

    It is a horrible evil to blow up a schoolbus full of children, but it is perfectly acceptable for Israel to kill children as a military action.

    If you don’t affirm that, then why not?

  • kirby1

    Islam are the new darlings of the left.

  • I’d say open your eyes and read actual Muslim theologians instead of your 7 Horrible Verses in the Koran or whatever “theological” site you get all your information from.

  • kirby1

    You not yet provided a source from a legitimate source (not a mouth piece of the Palestinians) affirming the school.

    You are more then welcome to take your concerns about civilian casualties to Hamas who are responsible given they were used as human shields.

    When the police arrest a kidnappers it is the criminal who is held responsible for the safety of the hostages not the police. The kidnapper will not be allowed to hide behind the hostages and sneak up on police and kill them. That’s just the way it is.

  • Bones

    They are illegal under UN Security Council Resolution 446.

    Btw I studied with the parish priest of Ramallah. He and his family were forced out of their homes at gunpoint, their homes bulldozed and given to Israeli settlers.

    Long story. Dont treat other people like crap and expect them to do nothing about it.

    It’s always Israel playing the victim when they’re the oppressor.

  • If I even thought this analogy was valid, which I don’t, then according you to the police should kill the hostages so they can take out the kidnapper.

    I think it’s pretty clear you have a very selective and self-contradictory view of these issues.

  • kirby1

    How about a short list of actions to Americans since 911:

    Sep. 11, 2001 – Nineteen al-Qaida terrorists hijacked four American passenger planes in a coordinated attack on U.S. soil. Nearly 200 Americans were murdered by the terrorists who hijacked American Airlines Flight 77 and flew it into the Pentagon, collapsing its western side. Meanwhile, two other planes, American Airlines Flight 11 and United Airlines Flight 175, were flown into the North and South towers of the World Trade Center in New York City. Both 110-story towers collapsed, killing 2,752 people. A fourth plane, United Airlines Flight 93, was flown by terrorists diverting the flight to Washington, D.C. However, passengers fought the hijackers, and the plane crashed in a field near Shanksville, Pennsylvania, killing 40 passengers.
    Feb. 16, 2002 – Muslim snipers Lee Boyd Malvo and John Allen Muhammad kill Keenya Cook in Tacoma, Washington. The snipers would kill 21 more people in a crime wave that stretched from coast to coast.

    March 19, 2002 – Jerry Ray Taylor, 60, is shot by snipers Lee Boyd Malvo and John Allen Muhammad at a Tucson, Arizona, golf course.

    Sept. 5, 2002 – Paul J. LaRuffa, 55, is shot and wounded by snipers Lee Boyd Malvo and John Allen Muhammad in Clinton, Maryland, in the parking lot of his restaurant.

    Sept. 14, 2002 – Muslim snipers Lee Boyd Malvo and John Allen Muhammad wound Rupinder “Benny” Oberoi, 22, outside a liquor store in Silver Spring, Maryland.

    Sept. 15, 2002 – Snipers Lee Boyd Malvo and John Allen Muhammad would Muhammad Rashid, 32, outside a liquor store in Brandywine, Maryland.

    Sept. 21, 2002 – Snipers Lee Boyd Malvo and John Allen Muhammad kill Million A. Woldemariam, 41, outside an Atlanta, Georgia, liquor store. Snipers also kill Claudine Lee Parker, 52, outside a liquor store in Montgomery, Alabama. The snipers shot Kellie Adams, 24, in the neck as she approached a liquor store in Montgomery, Alabama, where she worked.

    Sept. 23, 2002 – Snipers kill Hong Im Ballenger, 45, outside a beauty store in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. They also kill James D. Martin, 55, outside a supermarket in Wheaton, Louisiana.

    Oct. 3, 2002 – Snipers kill James L “Sonny” Buchanan, 39, while he mows a lawn near a car dealership in White Flint, Maryland. Premkumar A. Walekar, 54, is murdered while he pumps gas at a station in Aspen Hill, Maryland. The snipers kill Sarah Ramos, 34, as she sat outside a shopping center in Silver Spring, Maryland. They also murder Lori Lewis Rivera, 25, while she vacuums her car at a Shell gas station in Kensington, Maryland. While she attempts to cross a street in Northwest Washington, Pascal Charlot, 72, is shot and killed by the sniper.

    Oct. 4, 2002 – Snipers wound Caroline Seawell, 43, as loads her car with her purchases in a Fredericksburg, Virginia, store parking lot.

    Oct. 7, 2002 – Snipers wound 13-year-old Iran Brown outside a Nejamin Tasker Middle School in Bowie, Maryland.

    Oct. 9, 2002 – Snipers kill Vietnam veteran Dean H. Meyers, 53, while he pumps gas in Manassas, Virginia.

    Oct. 11, 2002 – Snipers kill Kenneth H. Bridges, 53, as he pumped gas at a station near Massaponax, Virginia.

    Oct. 14, 2002 – Snipers kill Linda Franklin, 47, in a Home Depot parking lot in Falls Church, Virginia.

    Oct. 19, 2002 – Snipers wound Jeffrey Hopper, 37, while he walks with his wife in a restaurant parking lot in Ashland, Virginia.

    Oct. 22, 2002 – Snipers kill Conrad E. Johnson, 35, a bus driver standing in the doorway of his bus in Aspen Hill, Maryland.

    Aug., 6, 2003 – The Muslim son of a Saudi millionaire, Mohammed Ali Alayed, 23, slashes the throat of an estranged Jewish friend, Ariel Sellouk, killing and nearly decapitating the man in Houston, Texas.

    Dec. 2, 2003 – A Jewish man, Joseph Applebaum, suffers from a swelling of the stomach that is easily diagnosed and treated. He was identified as Jewish on the front of his medical chart. But instead of receiving treatment, he is left to die by his Muslim doctor.

    April 15, 2004 – Fearing that his brother had molested his wife and daughter, Muslim man Ismail Peltek killed his wife by bludgeoning her on the head with a hammer and attacked his 22- and 4-year-old daughters with a knife. Peltek, 41, told investigators, “I was afraid that my family’s honor was taken.” He said he attacked his 4-year-old because he worried that she had been “sullied” by a gynecological exam, according to the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle, which reported that both daughters suffered fractured skulls. Investigators asked him, “if you had the opportunity to kill the family again, would you?” Peltek replied, “My female family, yes. My male family, no.”

    January 2005 – Somali immigrant Mustafa Mohamed, 30, slashes and injures six people at a retirement home in Alexandria, Virginia. One resident required 200 stitches. Another suffered a broken neck. A judge rules Mohamed is not guilty by reason of insanity.

    March 3, 2006 – Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar, an Iranian-American seeking to “avenge the deaths of Muslims worldwide” and “punish” the U.S. government, intentionally runs down and injures nine people with his sport utility vehicle on the campus of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He pleaded guilty to nine counts of attempted first-degree murder and was sentenced to 33 years in prison.

    June 16, 2006 – A 62-year-old Jewish man, Paul Schrum, who had gone to the movies to see “X-Men: The Last Stand” in a heavily Jewish area near Baltimore, Maryland, is shot by Muslim gunman Mujtaba Rabbani Jabbar, 24. Jabbar shot Schrum three times in the upper body, walked into the lobby, placed his gun on a counter and waited for police.

    June 25, 2006 – Michael Julius Ford, a 22-year-old convert to Islam, uses a long-barrel handgun to shoot four co-workers and a police officer at a Denver, Colorado, Safeway, claiming the attack was “Allah’s choice.” One person died in the shooting spree. When Ford fired at police, he was shot and killed.

    July 28, 2006 – Muslim Pakistani man Naveed Afzal Haq shot six women, killing one, at the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle building in Seattle, Washington. Haq grabbed a 14-year-old girl and used her as a hostage during the attack. Officials classified the attack as a “hate crime” rather than terrorism.

    Jan. 1, 2008 – Egyptian-born cab driver Yaser Said shoots and kills his two daughters in Irving, Texas, because they were dating non-Muslim boys. The daughters had run away from home a week earlier, fearing their father would kill them.

    July 6, 2008 – Muslim Pakistani man Chaudry Rashid, 56, strangled his 25-year-old daughter in Jonesboro, Georgia, after she said she wanted out of an arranged marriage. Police said the daughter, Sandela Kanwal, had argued with her father about the arrangement of her marriage to a man in Chicago. An officer explained, “At some point during the altercation, he ended up killing his daughter.”

    Feb. 12, 2009 – Pakistani-American Muzzammil Syed Hassan was the CEO of the first American Muslim TV network broadcast in English, Bridge TV. Hassan beheaded his estranged wife, Aasiya Zubair, after she filed for divorce. Her body was found at the TV station. When he was arrested, he said he “felt an incredible amount of relief” after he killed the woman.

    April 12, 2009 – Upon learning that they had patronized a strip club, a Muslim man shoots and kills his brother-in-law and another man in Phoenix, Arizona.

    June 1, 2009 – In a drive-by shooting, Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad – a convert to Islam who had traveled to Yemen and was deported to the U.S. for overstaying his visa – opened fire on U.S. soldiers standing in front of a Little Rock, Arkansas, recruiting office. Muhammad killed one private and injured another. When he was arrested Muhammad explained that he had planned to kill as many soldiers as possible and was given the assignment by Al-Qaeda in the Arab Peninsula.

    November 2009 – Iraq-born Muslim man Faleh Hassan Almaleki, 48, intentionally hit his daughter with his car and killed her because she had become “too Westernized.” He also attacked the mother of the girl’s boyfriend. Police said, “It occurred because [of] her not following traditional family values. He felt she was becoming too westernized, and he didn’t like that.” His daughter had backed out of an arranged marriage.

    Nov. 5, 2009 – Muslim gunman Nidal Malik Hassan, an Army psychiatrist, fatally shoots 13 people and wounds 30 others at Fort Hood, Texas.

    Dec. 4, 2009 – A Muslim graduate student from Saudi Arabia, Abdulsalam S. al-Zahrani, stabbed his non-Muslim Islamic studies professor, Richard T. Antoun, to death to avenge “persecuted” Muslims. One of his roommates said, “He was all the time shouting in Arabic, shouting threats, insulting his country for no reason.”

    April 14, 2010 – A Muslim convert, James A. Larry, 33, became angry that his family would not convert to Islam and shot his mother, pregnant wife, infant son and two nieces in Marquette Park, Illinois. He pleaded guilty to multiple counts of murder, attempted murder and the intentional homicide of an unborn child. “He was upset at his wife and their family — he felt disrespected that they would not join his religion,” Assistant State’s Attorney Jim McKay said. “It didn’t matter if they were young or old, pregnant or not. He wanted them dead.” Larry also shot his 13-year-old nephew in the face, but the boy survived. When the man was arrested, he told officers Allah told him to kill his family, according to court records. According to a police report, he said, “I wish I had more bullets. I wish I had more bullets.”

    April 30, 2011 – Rahim Abdul Alfetlawi, 46, shot his step-daughter in the head at point-blank range in Warren, Michigan, after she refused to strictly adhere to Muslim customs. The family claimed the motive was not religion.

    Sept. 11, 2011 – Three Jewish men are discovered in Waltham, Massachusetts, with their throats slit from ear to ear and nearly decapitated. Authorities believed the murders were not random, and thousands of dollars in cash and marijuana were left at the scene. According to reports, authorities believe Boston Marathon bombers Tamerlan Tsarnaev and his younger brother, both Muslims, may have been responsible for the triple homicide.

    Jan. 15, 2012 – A Jordanian Muslim man, Ali Mahwood-Awad Irsan, 57, gunned down Iranian medical student, Gelareh Bagherzadeh, a friend of his daughter and a Christian convert who widely denounced Islam. He later killed his Christian son-in-law after his daughter married him without permission. Assistant Harris County District Attorney Tammy Thomas told a district judge, “He said, ‘I killed that b–ch, and you’re next. No one insults my honor as a Muslim and gets away with it.’”

    Feb. 7, 2013 – Yusuf Ibrahim, 28, shot two Coptic Christians to death and beheaded them in Buena Vista, New Jersey. He also removed their hands before burying their bodies in the backyard of an abandoned house. Quran 8:12 states, “When thy Lord was revealing to the angels, ‘I am with you; so confirm the believers. I shall cast into the unbelievers’ hearts terror; so smite above the necks, and smite every finger of them!”

    March 31, 2013 – Reshad Riddle walked into an Ashtabula, Ohio, church and fatally shot his father after an Easter service. After the shooting, witnesses say, walked through the church holding the gun and shouted that the slaughter was “the will of Allah. This is the will of God.”

    April 15, 2013 – Muslim Chechen brothers Dzhokhar Tsarnaev and Tamerlan Tsarnaev detonate two pressure cooker bombs during the Boston Marathon, killing three people and injuring an estimated 264 others. After the bombing, they killed an MIT policeman, stole an SUV and exchanged gunfire with police. Tamerlan was shot and his brother drove over him with the stolen SUV. Tamerlan was pronounced dead at the scene. After a manhunt, police found Dzhokhar hiding in a boat in a man’s backyard. Dzokhar has been sentenced to death.

    Aug. 4, 2013 – A Muslim convert, Daymond Agnew, 34, went to an Ace Hardware store on a “mission from Allah to help people” before he fatally stabbed employee Daniel Joseph Stone 17 times.

    March 6, 2014 – Registered sex offender James Cosby, 46, is accused of bludgeoning his lesbian daughter to death and shooting her lover in Port Bolivar, Texas. Police believe he then dumped the bodies near a ferry gate. In his bedroom, Cosby had the Quran open to a page that says homosexuality is a sin, family advocate Quanell X told KHOU-TV. “It’s quite unfortunate but he had a real, real warped understanding, in my opinion, of the religion of Islam and its position on the gay lifestyle and what one should do,” Quanell X said.

    April 27, 2014 – A 30-year-old Muslim man, Ali Muhammad Brown, is accused of shooting to death two men in Seattle and a man in New Jersey. According to local reports, he told police the killings were “vengeance” for U.S. actions in the Mideast. According to court documents, he said they were “just kills” and that he was “just doing my small part” as a self-styled jihadist.

    Sept. 25, 2014 – Alton Nolen is accused of beheading a woman in Moore, Oklahoma. Co-workers reported that Nolen had been trying to convert them to Islam. Nolen reportedly used “some Arabic terms” during his attack and had an interest in beheadings. Nolen told a judge, “I’m Muslim. My question is, do you have any Muslims that can represent me as a Muslim?”

    May 3, 2015 – In Garland, Texas, Pamela Geller, along with her group the American Freedom Defense Initiative, hosted a “Draw Muhammad” event. Elton Simpson and Nadir Soofi of Phoenix responded to a call to “avenge the prophet” and traveled to Garland, where they were shot and killed by a security guard after opening fire in an apparent attempt to get into the building. The guard was wounded in the attack. Islamic radicals have since called for Geller’s head, and vow to kill anyone who “blasphemes” Muhammad.

    July 16, 2015 – Four U.S. Marines have been shot dead in an attack, reportedly by a lone Islamic gunman, on U.S. Navy facilities in Chattanooga, Tennessee. Chattanooga Mayor Andy Berke said five people died in all, including the gunman. Two law enforcement sources told CBS News that the shooting suspect was identified as Muhammad Youssef Abdulazeez, 24. Abdulazeez was born in Kuwait and emigrated to the U.S. where he reportedly became a naturalized U.S. citizen.

    The FBI is investigating two crime scenes, a Navy recruiting center at a strip mall where the first shots were fired, and a Navy reserve center about 7 miles away. More than 100 rounds were reportedly fired in a shootout with police at the recruitment center parking lot. The shooter then drove to the Navy reserve center and started shooting Marines, four of whom were killed. The Marines would not have been armed at a reserve Navy installation or at a recruitment center, both of which were described as “soft targets.”

    The four Marines who were fatally shot reportedly were attacked at the Navy Reserve Center on Amnicola Highway. A police officer at the first location was injured and was being treated at a local hospital for a gunshot wound to the ankle. “We are conducting this as an act of domestic terrorism,” said Bill Killian, U.S. Attorney for Tennessee at a 3 p.m. press conference. He came back to the podium 15 minutes later and backtracked, telling reporters “I would encourage you not to get caught up in labels…whether it was an act of terrorism or a crime.”l

    On December 2, 2015, in a terrorist attackwhich consisted of a mass shooting and an attempted bombing, in San Bernardino, California, 14 people were killed, and 22 were seriously injured. Syed Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik, a married couple living in the city of Redlands, targeted a San Bernardino CountyDepartment of Public Health training event and holiday party, of about 80 employees, in a rented banquet room. Farook was an American-born U.S. citizen of Pakistani descent who was a health department employee. Malik was a Pakistani-born lawful permanent resident of the United States.

  • kirby1

    No, police should not allow a hostage taker to approach while firing on innocent bystanders.

    It’s amazing what excapes you.

  • Ok, now give me a list of violent crimes of non-Muslim Americans against Americans. Is it shorter?

    You realize you are talking about an infinitesimally tiny part of the Muslim population, right? This would be like me pasting the list of school shootings in America in this decade and arguing that, when Americans run schools, they’ll kill everyone.

  • kirby1

    How abou a poll number from Muslims:

    Populus Poll (2006): 12% of young Muslims in Britain (and 12% overall) believe that suicide attacks against civilians in Britain can be justified. 1 in 4 support suicide attacks against British troops

    Pew Research (2007): 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.
    35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).
    42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall).
    22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall).
    29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall)

    Pew Research (2011): 8% of Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified (81% never).
    28% of Egyptian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified (38% never).

    Pew Research (2007): Muslim-Americans who identify more strongly with their religion are three times more likely to feel that suicide bombings are justified

    ICM: 5% of Muslims in Britain tell pollsters they would not report a planned Islamic terror attack to authorities.
    27% do not support the deportation of Islamic extremists preaching violence and hate.

    Federation of Student Islamic Societies: About 1 in 5 Muslim students in Britain (18%) would not report a fellow Muslim planning a terror attack.

    ICM Poll: 25% of British Muslims disagree that a Muslim has an obligation to report terrorists to police.

    Populus Poll (2006): 16% of British Muslims believe suicide attacks against Israelis are justified.
    37% believe Jews in Britain are a “legitimate target”.

    Pew Research (2013): At least 1 in 4 Muslims do not reject violence against civilians (study did not distinguish between those who believe it is partially justified and never justified)

    Center for Social Cohesion: 40% of British Muslim students want Sharia

    ICM Poll: 40% of British Muslims want Sharia in the UK

    GfK NOP: 28% of British Muslims want Britain to be an Islamic state.

    NOP Research: 68% of British Muslims support the arrest and prosecution of anyone who insults Islam.

    MacDonald Laurier Institute: 62% of Muslims want Sharia in Canada (15% say make it mandatory

    World Public Opinion: 81% of Egyptians want strict Sharia imposed in every Islamic country
    76% of Pakistanis want strict Sharia imposed in every Islamic country
    49% (plurality) of Indonesians want strict Sharia imposed in every Islamic country
    76% of Moroccans want strict Sharia imposed in every Islamic countr

    World Public Opinion: 64% of Egyptians said it was “very important for the government” to “apply traditional punishments for crimes such as stoning adulterers.

    Pew Research (2010): 77% of Egyptian Muslims favor floggings and amputation
    58% of Jordanian Muslims favor floggings and amputation
    36% of Indonesian Muslims favor floggings and amputation
    82% of Pakistanis favor floggings and amputation
    65% of Nigerian Muslims favor floggings and amputatio

    Pew Research (2010): 82% of Egyptian Muslims favor stoning adulterers
    70% of Jordanian Muslims favor stoning adulterers
    42% of Indonesian Muslims favor stoning adulterers
    82% of Pakistanis favor stoning adulterers
    56% of Nigerian Muslims favor stoning adulterers

    Pew Research (2013): 72% of Indonesians want Sharia to be law of the land

    support stoning adulterers
    78% of Pakistanis support killing apostates

    Pew Research (2013): 81% of South Asian Muslims and 57% of Egyptians suport amputating limbs for theft.

    Pew Research (2013): According to an interpretation of this study, approximately 45% of Sharia supporters surveyed disagreed with the idea that Islamic law should apply only to Muslims.

    Economist (Pew 2013): 74% who favor Islamic law in Egypt say it should apply to non-Muslims as well.

  • Bones

    Palestine actually had the same status as Iraq, Syria and Lebanon after Ww1. They were class A mandates.

  • What the…? Dude, you must be a troll, because your argumentation makes no sense. I don’t mean this as a playground insult, but I’m not sure your brain functions normally.

    It’s very simple. Israel, in their attacks on Gaza, kill lots of children. Regardless or whether or not Hamas is terrible, is it ok for Israel to do this? Is it ok for them to assault targets they know have civilians and children? Is that all right? Perfectly fine for them to kill kids if that’s what it takes. Is that what you believe – yes or no?

  • Bones

    The actions of Jewish terrorists such as the bombing of the King David Hotel were barbaric.

    They are now seen as heroes.

  • Romeo Fulga

    I have studied Islam at academic level for more than 2 decades. I do not get my information the way you do. I have studied most of Muslim theologians and non-Muslim historians regarding Islam and its bloody history. Muslim sources are very biased and are no good (alone) if one is interested to find out the truth. I am a religious scholar and I know what I am talking about. Again, start reading my friend.

  • JD

    You do realize that not all Palestinians (no quotations needed) are Muslim, right? You do realize that not all Muslims are terrorists, right? I work in an office with many Muslims, and I’ve yet to have one try to cut my head off. Then again, why live in such fear anyways. Our job is to love them and be a refuge for the broken, Israeli and Palestinian alike. Our job is to let them see Christ through us, and you don’t do that with fearmongering and venom.

    I’d highly recommend checking out Christian Peacemaker Teams and their work in Palestine. See what the children must suffer through just to walk to school. Read of the CPT delegates who have been attacked by Israeli settlers. Instead of rationalizing one side’s violence, how about we condemn the murderous violence of both sides and be a force for peace. It’s what we’re called to do.

  • Bones

    Actually Israel discriminates against both christian and Muslim Palestinians.

  • JD

    Here’s a great piece on the Christian perspective on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict: http://brianzahnd.com/2015/03/christian-perspective-israeli-palestinian-conflict/

  • Bones

    Yeah sure.

    Except Palestinians are Christians too.

  • kirby1

    Dude, 1st the numbers the UN used were supplied by Hamas (Paliwood), a little suspicious given their history of actually falsehoods (dear me). Dude, 2nd take you complaint to Hamas Israel did everything possible to minimize collateral casualties Hamas did everything to enlarge them. Dude 3rd Israel was shown to act with caution, but are not expected to commit suicide.
    From 18th – 22nd May 2015, the High Level International Military Group, with representatives from United States, Germany, the United Kingdom, Holland, Spain, Italy, Australia and Colombia visited Israel for a fact-finding mission on the 2014 Gaza conflict. It asserted that the initiation of the conflict was justified.
    “Israel sought to avoid the conflict and exercised great restraint over a period of months before the war when its citizens were targeted by sporadic rocket attacks from Gaza. Once the war had begun, Israel made repeated efforts to terminate the fighting. The war that Israel was eventually compelled to fight against Hamas and other Gaza extremists was a legitimate war, necessary to defend its citizens and its territory against sustained attack from beyond its borders.”
    The report also dealt with Hamas using its own civilians as ‘human shields’ against the IDF. They cited as sources IDF videos, media footage, and even confirmation from Hamas officials and UN officials.
    “Hamas launched attacks against Israel from the heart of its own civilian communities in Gaza and positioned its munitions and military forces there also, including in schools, hospitals and mosques…Hamas even used UN facilities for storing munitions and launching attacks.”
    The committee also blamed Hamas of breaking international law by using human shields and for not ensuring the safety of its own civilians by evacuating them.
    “There are documented cases of them compelling civilians to remain in or return to places where they expected Israeli attacks to come.”
    The study examined the IDF’s actions and concluded in its favor.
    “We believe that in general Israeli forces acted proportionately as required by the laws of armed conflict and often went beyond the required legal principles of proportionality, necessity and discrimination…The measures taken were often far in excess of the requirements of the Geneva Conventions. They sometimes placed Israeli lives at risk. To an extent these steps also undermined the effectiveness of the IDF’s operations.”
    Giulio Terzi – former Foreign Minister of Italy.
    General Klaus Naumann – former Chief of Staff of the Bundeswehr and Chairman of the NATO Military Committee.
    General Vincenzo Camporini – former Chief of the Defence Staff of Italy.
    Admiral Jose Maria Teran – former Chief of the Joint Staff of Spain.
    Ambassador Pierre-Richard Prosper – former US State Department Ambassador at Large for war crimes issues.
    Mr Rafael Bardaji – former National Security Adviser for the Spanish government.
    Lieutenant General David A Deptula – former Standing Joint Force Air Component Commander, United States Pacific Command.
    Major General Jim Molan – former Chief of Operations, Headquarters Multi National Force, Iraq and Commander of the Australian Defence College.
    Colonel Eduardo Ramirez – Member of Colombian Congress and former Chief of Security, Colombia.
    Colonel Vincent Alcazar – former senior United States Air Force officer in Iraq and Afghanistan.
    Colonel Richard Kemp – former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan.

  • Bones

    The ignorance of you and Palestinian Christianity is mind boggling.

  • kirby1

    Actually quite the opposite, unlike the rest of the Middle East which is now being ethnically cleansed of its Christain population Israel’s Christains are actually increasing and in general better off financially then the average Jewish Israeli. Israeli Arabs are increasing also and hold political office, judicial position, military generals as well as professional.

  • kirby1

    Bethlehem for the first time is now Muslim under the authority of the PA, even so they have it better then their brothers in Gaza under Islamist Hamas, can you feel the love.

  • Romeo Fulga

    The ignorance of me? LOL

  • kirby1

    Great site for what Christains face under Palestinian Muslim government
    Christians in Gaza have faced increasing persecution since Hamas wrested control of the Strip in June 2007.
    Since taking control, Hamas has been instituting sharia (Islamic) law throughout the coastal enclave, which, among other things, forbids any non-Muslim from sharing his or her faith.
    In January 2010, Majed El Shafie, president of One Free World International, told CBN News Christians are being attacked on an almost daily basis.
    “The Christians in the Palestinian Authority [are] facing persecutions. Their homes, their churches — they get attacked almost everyday,” Shafie said.
    Christian schools have also been attacked, vehicles torched, equipment stolen and school personnel threatened.

    http://rescuechristians.org/christians-in-gaza-have-faced-increasing-persecution-since-hamas-wrested-control/

  • RandyBarge

    You might try reading some genuine Christian literature some time. I would recommend that you start with the New Testament.

  • JD

    I don’t think they send email forwards about non-Muslim American attacks against Americans. Hard to cut-and-paste that stuff then.

  • JD

    The story of Palestinian Christian, Daoud Nassar, is quite moving: https://vimeo.com/29677206

  • kirby1

    Actually Palestinian terrorist are seen as heroes and honored by having schools and town squares named after them, and unlike the king David hotel which occurred 70 years ago but if you like that time period we can start there but don’t forget Palestinian Arabs killed many more Brits than were killed in the King David Hotel.

    April 15, 1936: 3 Jews in Tulkarm killed by Arabs.

    April 19: 9 Jews in Jaffa killed by Arabs.

    April 20: 5 Jews in Jaffa killed by Arabs.

    April 22: Jewish woman in Jaffa killed by Arabs.

    April 26: Jewish houses in Nazareth and Beit Shean burned by Arabs.

    April 26: An Arab mob beats up Jewish boy in Jerusalem.

    April 28: 4 Jewish farm workers in Migdal injured by Arabs.

    April 29: Arabs burn down a Jewish forest in Balfouriya.

    April 29: Arab mob forms in Jerusalem, but British police break it up before Jews harmed.

    May 1: 2 Jews in Haifa killed by Arabs.

    May 3: Arab mob burns down Jewish timber yard in Haifa.

    May 4: Jewish orchards in Mishmar Ha-Emek burned by Arabs.

    May 4: Arabs destroy 200 acres of wheat in Ramat David.

    May 5: 500 orange trees uprooted in Tel Mond by Arabs.

    May 7: Arabs fire on Jewish bus in Beit Dagan.

    May 10: Arabs burn crops and haystacks in Givat Ada.

    May 10: Arabs uproot newly planted olive grove in Zikhron Yaakov.

    May 11: Arabs burn Jewish crops in Ramat David.

    May 12: Arabs burn threshing floor in Zikhron Yaakov.

    May 13: 2 elderly Jews murdered by Arabs in Old City.

    May 13: Jewish shops in Haifa stoned by Arabs.

    May 13: More orchards burned in Mishmar Ha-Emek.

    May 16: 3 Jews in Jerusalem exiting a cinema are shot dead by Arabs.

    May 19: Arabs kill a Jew in the Old City of Jerusalem.

    May 20: 2 Jews wounded during Arab attack on bus.

    May 24: Arabs severely wound a Jewish guard at Majd el Krum.

    May 25: Arabs kill a Jew at Hebrew University.

    From May 30 – June 13, 1936, in more than 11 attacks, the Arabs destroy over 30,000 trees planted by Jews, as well as many fruit orchards,crops and barns. Telephone wires are cut throughout the district, roads are barricaded, and bridges and culverts are mined. Volunteers from Syria and Iraq aid the Arabs in their attacks.

    May 31: Jew at Givat Shaul killed by Arabs.

    June 1: Jewish bus passenger killed by Arab rifle fire.

    June 5: 5 Jewish passengers injured when Arabs threw bomb at bus in Haifa.

    June 6: Jewish girl severely injured by Arab fire while traveling on bus.

    June 8: Arabs attack Jews on their way to the Dead Sea Potash works.

    In the third month of terror (June 16 – July 17) campaign, 9 Jews were killed, mostly in Arab ambushes on buses, and 75,000 trees planted by Jews were destroyed.

  • Romeo Fulga

    What you are missing is that the killing of infidels is mandated in Islam. That is where the danger comes from. Non-Muslim Americans have no scripture mandating the killing of non-believers. So many people completely miss what makes Islam dangerous. I am not against nominal Muslims, but I am against Islam as a political religion. The left side with Islam because they see them as oppressed people at the hands of the imperialistic west and Jews. That may be true to some degree, but I am not talking about that. I am talking about Islam period.

  • I went and actually looked these up instead of your favorite tactic of copypasta from Wikipedia. Check this out:

    80% of the American Legion believes Israel pre-emptively striking Iran is justified
    http://www.legion.org/node/161831/results

    25% of Americans support a pre-emptive nuclear strike against countries believed to harbor terrorists:
    http://www.rense.com/general26/25percentamericans.htm

    59% of Americans believe torture is justified:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/new-poll-finds-majority-of-americans-believe-torture-justified-after-911-attacks/2014/12/16/f6ee1208-847c-11e4-9534-f79a23c40e6c_story.html

    78% of American MUSLIMS believe that it is never ok for the military to strike civilian targets, even though 58% of American PROTESTANTS said it’s sometimes justified:
    http://www.gallup.com/poll/148763/muslim-americans-no-justification-violence.aspx

    And as far as your beloved Pew Research goes, you get a very different story when you read their conclusions:

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/12/07/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

    Including massively unfavorable views of ISIS and suicide bombing.

    53% of Muslims in America consider themselves Americans first, Muslim second (I wonder how Christians would do with that)
    http://www.pewresearch.org/2007/05/22/muslim-americans-middle-class-and-mostly-mainstream/

    Just FYI, the majority of U.S. Muslims are white:
    http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf
    NOTE: That same report also shows that 76% of American Muslims are “very” or “somewhat” concerned about Muslim extremism and

    It also showed that American Muslims overwhelmingly view prejudice as ignorance of Islam as the biggest problem facing Muslims today, while only 3% said it was America’s foreign policy.

    It also showed that 49% of American Muslims felt Mosques should never speak about political issues, and 60% of that number came from foreign born Muslims. Christian churches would blow that number out of the water.

    61% of American Muslims felt a way could be found for Israel and Palestine to peacefully co-exist.

  • Yes, we do. Deut. 13:6-11.

    Now, you probably have a theological explanation for why you don’t kill your family members who convert to other religions. Muslim theologians do, too.

  • Romeo Fulga

    What makes you think that I am not reading the New Testament? I am a pastor and theologian. Look me up on Facebook if you want to know about me and what I do!

  • kirby1

    You forgot, there are twice the number of British born Muslims fighting for ISIS than are enlisted in the combined British arm forces, way to go.

  • JD

    Checking out your facebook just confirmed what I see in your posts here. You seem to view everything through the lens of man’s politics. I see nothing but posts about divisive politics and fear. I see nothing that would seem to bring glory to God.

  • Unfortunately, almost 29k in the British military didn’t declare a religion. That number alone vastly eclipses either of those other numbers, so you really have no idea.

    Plus, you should look up the tu quoque fallacy, because you use it all. the. time.

  • “My home is the UK. As a Muslim, that’s the place I’d happily die for and kill for.

    “If you narrow it down, we’re not just fighting Muslims we’re fighting extremists. Every culture, every faith… has an extremist background in it.

    “That’s something I personally feel should be eradicated, so this is why I’m here to fight this war really.”

    Pte Shehab El-Din Ahmed El-Miniawi, a British Muslim who served in the Parachute Regiment in Afghanistan – speaking to the BBC.

  • Romeo Fulga

    Read my notes. There I post many theological articles. About man’s politics I must say, indeed, but it’s important for people to be aware to what is going on. You say fear? When you study Islam you will understand why people have fear of such system.

  • kirby1

    For every one Pte there are two in ISIS.

  • Except there aren’t.

  • kirby1

    Yes there are.

    NewsWeek:
    “There are now more than twice as many British Muslims fighting for Islamic State than there are serving in the British armed forces..
    Khalid Mahmood, the MP for Perry Barr in Birmingham, estimates that at least 1,500 young British Muslims have been recruited by extremists fighting in Iraq and Syria in the last three years.”

  • kirby1

    BBC reported last year:
    The first memorial day for victims of so-called honour killings is taking place on Tuesday.
    It would have been the 29th birthday of Shafilea Ahmed, who was killed by her parents when she was 17 after suffering years of “honour-based” violence.
    UK police forces recorded more than 11,000 cases of “honour” crime between 2010 and 2014.

    Dude, How many were Christains?

  • JD

    So hidden away in your notes, you put some theological posts, but the part that is on display when anyone first clicks on your page is full of fear and venom. So display the venom, and keep Christ hidden in the notes?

    Also, based on what I saw, I have a hard time believing it’s about telling people “what is going on”. In your most recent post you even imply that there may be foul play involved with Scalia’s death. Come on. Your wall is a testament to fearmongering. I saw nothing proclaiming the beauty of Christ.

    Just a suggestion: I’d put the divisive and venomous politics in the notes, and put Christ on display. Actually, I’d just recommend dropping this obsession with viewing everything through the lens of man’s politics, and change it out with Kingdom lenses. It’ll lead to less fear and venom. My life changed radically when I did that, because I used to be where you are.

  • No, you haven’t. You absolutely have not studied Islam academically for two decades. There is no way. You cannot actually study Muslim theology and say the things you say.

    And you are a religious scholar in the same way I’m a skydiving breakdancer. Anyone can put “theologian” after their name.

  • How many Muslims kill abortion doctors in America?

  • kirby1

    Go ahead give the number of murders of abortion Doctors by non-Muslims (11 total Dr and non Dr over the last 25 years) Muslim killing by any demographic will dwarf that, so go right ahead post that number, we can put those numbers side by side, Dude.

  • Romeo Fulga

    I appreciate the respectful attitude and civility in your dialogue with me. I also am happy to find out that you have been changed by Christ. In response to you I want to say that I did not “hide” in my FB notes my articles on theology. It is simply how Facebook set up the system. All my articles in my notes have been repeatedly shared on my wall. I re-share them once in a while. Also I keep posting new articles all the time. I am not hiding anything. Yes, I understand that my “political” postings can be divisive, but politics are always divisive. I will take your advice on limiting my political stance on Facebook.

  • Romeo Fulga

    LOL. Look me up sir! What I am saying is the truth my friend. And yes when one studies Islam and its history, one will say what I say, unless he has been deceived by Islam or unless one has a political pro-Islamic agenda.

  • kirby1

    Actually according to FBI statistics, religious hate crime towards Jews is 4 – 6x greater compared to Muslims.

  • JD

    Agreed on politics always being divisive, which is why I find them repugnant. They divide even brothers and sisters in Christ. I’ll leave with this one last comment, or really just a rule of thumb: Christ never once seemed to make a point to advise Caesar on how to run his empire. That’s the example I want to imitate.

    I think if Christians worried less about man’s politics, and instead focused on loving like Christ loved, then the world would be a radically different place. If we can discuss politics in the spirit of love as defined by Paul in 1 Cor 13, then great. But I don’t see that happening, especially in this politically obsessed society. We aren’t going to reach the lost via legislation.

  • Romeo Fulga

    Again you prove ignorance of the real issues. Let me ask the question in a different way: How many Christians are obsessed with kilning abortion doctors?? Where do you see in the New Testament killing being mandated in any shape or form??

  • Romeo Fulga

    I agree. I must admit I am new in politics (mostly in the last 2 years or so). Before that I was not involved at all in it, either on Facebook or in real life.

  • kirby1

    The Disquieting Treatment of Christians by the Palestinians

    In the voluminous commentaries on the Middle East today very little attention has been given to the sad fate of Christians in the Arab and Muslim countries. Even less attention has been paid to the contrast between the treatment of Christians in Israel and their treatment in Arab countries. In Israel Christians have religious freedom and their numbers have increased. In Arab countries the religious freedom of Christians is restricted and their number has been reduced because of harassment, fear, and persecution. It is well to remember the words of Martin Luther King: “In the end we will remember not the words of our enemies but the silence of our friends.”

    Christians have been a presence in the Middle East for two millennia. Hundreds of churches and monasteries were built after Constantine legalized Christianity in 313. Yet after the Islamic conquest in 638 Christians have been subjected to Arab and Muslim rule for centuries. Their status in the Ottoman Empire was that of dhimmis, non-Muslims who were protected but who were second-class citizens. In this millet system based on religious affiliation, Christians were tolerated but they were also in a state of perpetual humiliation, even of subjugation.

    http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2838/palestinians-christians

  • RandyBarge

    The gospel reading in the Revised Common Lectionary last Sunday was Luke’s version of the Temptation story. Its the story of Jesus refusing the temptations of Satan, including the temptation of worldly glory, in order to walk the way of the Cross, the way of self-giving love even for his enemies. When we Christians learn to deny ourselves of our partisan hatreds and impulses and learn to walk in the way of the Cross, we just might become the light the world so disparately needs.

  • JD

    Amen! And one of the things that people don’t get when it comes to that temptation is that Satan claims ownership over the kingdoms (political entities) of this world. One can only offer something that they own. Christ doesn’t challenge his claim to ownership over the kingdoms of the world. He simply responds that we are to worship and serve God only. Our citizenship doesn’t lie with America, England, China, Israel etc. Our citizenship lies with His Kingdom which is not of this world. It’s been so freeing to be unshackled from the chains of man’s political ideology.

  • kirby1

    Benjamin should at least be honest with his readership and more accurate title his blog:

    5 Reasons I So Blindly Undermined Israel in Spite of the Truth or Biblical Ethics

  • Romeo Fulga

    Sir, again it is clear you do not understand the things you write about. This passage in Deut. 13:6-11 has to do with Israel under the Mosaic law. You do not understand Christianity at all, nor the Bible. The Old Testament is the scripture of Ancient Judaism. It is not relevant today at all, that is politically. The way Christians relate to the Old Testament teachings is through principlizing, drawing principles for today in relation to the teachings of the New Testament. The value of OT teachings for Christians is historical and prophetical (in short) in the sense of pointing toward Christ in the New Testament. Christians are not mandated to follow the Mosaic law of the OT. Christians are not mandated to follow the OT directly, but only through the New Testament teachings.

  • RandyBarge

    Amen.

  • I can’t find any abortion doctors killed by Muslims in America.

  • Please tell me the contemporary Muslim scholars and theologians you have read that lead you to believe that Muslims with political power in America would kill the Christians. Cite them. I’ll be over here not holding my breath.

  • I don’t know how many Christians are obsessed with killing abortion doctors. Apparently enough to do it.

    I don’t see killing in the New Testament in any way shape or form. In fact, I see the opposite, but there are plenty of Christians who kill in the military, who support the death penalty, who will kill in self-defense, who support Bush’s pre-emptive strike doctrine, bombing clinics, lynching black people, driving trucks of fertilizer into buildings, beating up gay people, invading other countries, and far more Christians support military attacks of civilian targets than Muslims do.

  • Ok, thank you for proving my point. You admit that verse exists. You admit that verse means you should kill your relatives who follow other gods.

    But you have a -theological- explanation for why you don’t have to do what that verse says. It’s part of the Mosaic economy, we’re under the New Covenant, God used to like it when you killed your Buddhist son, now He doesn’t, etc. etc.

    And yet, you don’t have the foggiest idea that the overwhelming majority of Muslim scholarship also has nuanced theological frameworks around their “unpleasant” verses. But you call yourself a scholar and a theologian. I call bullshit.

  • Jeff Preuss

    “Thank you for again displaying your hostile, uncivil response”

    ???
    Not sure where you got hostility from JD’s comment…or fury…or lack of civility…

  • Michael,

    Ok. On the secular government level, Israel was created and the Palestinians did not agree. So what? The Indians did not agree to the British and the Americans taking their lands either. But it happened. Most of Africa was divided up by the Queen without regard to Tribal boundaries. But they were all done and that is the reality. You can question the legality of the Balfour Declaration but that does not give people who don’t like it the right to take it back with force. Does it? That is also not legal.

    Justice and International law will never end this conflict. This particular conflict has its origins shortly after the flood and it will continue until the end of the Age as was prophesied. But you don’t have to believe that because as long as you are alive the conflict will not end. In this conflict Religion will not settle the conflict. The return of God will settle the conflict. It’s not really about God favoring one people over another either. God divorced the Israelites including the Jews a long time ago. However, prophecy will be fulfilled exactly as foretold at God’s pleasure. That timing seems close now but every generation feels that way.

    The people on this site are peculiar. From what I see so far most would rather concern themselves about refugees rather than human life; either in the womb or out of it. So for the people who inhabit this site, would it be fair to say that the Jews would be better off if they were expelled as refugees than to stay and continue to fight for survival?

  • Romeo Fulga

    Are you a Muslim? If you are, it explains everything you say. If you are not, then you are blind. Either way, Muslim or not, you need to study Islam objectively and you will find out why I say what I say. I recommend starting with the history of the beginning of Islam. First I recommend you read about the classical (Muslim accepted) history of the beginning of Islam–the Rashidun Caliphate. Then you need to study the “critical-historical” history of the same period from non Muslim historians (who are not biased in showing only the Muslim faith-propaganda, guided by the Islamic principle of Taqiyyah). When you study Islam from their perspective you will understand what motivates them to do what they do. When you study Islam from the true historical perspective you will understand the nature of this political religion. Reading about Islamic concepts of abrogation (the Mansook vs. Nasik in Islamic hermeneutics) will help you in understanding the interpretation of Qu’ran. Also read The Quran, and the Hadiths, and the Sunnas. The Hadiths will help you understand the Qu’ran and even the Sunas. Anyway start reading and you will change your myopic position on Islam. I do not have any problems with really peaceful Muslims, or Muslims as people in general (most of them are ignorant of their own religion and its history) but I have a problem with the real Islam.

  • You know, I found an interesting quote from you on another website. Someone pointed out early church violence and persecution against “heretics.” Here is what you said:

    “Yes I admit there were many bad things that happened, but we cannot blame entire Christianity or the Church so singularly. This is simply HUMAN. This has not much to do with the CHURCH as it has to do with HUMANITY. We do mistakes, even good people. And the Church had their errors that we are not retrospectively proud of. Oh well.”

    Are you familiar with the phrase “special pleading?”

  • kirby1

    Maybe you read a different post.

  • Romeo Fulga

    You are very wrong. Even if Israeli military killed some children, it was an unplanned error in the war which happens all the time. Israelis do not kill Palestinian children for the sake of killing them only. Why would they want that? How is that going to help them, especially in the eyes of the world that is infected with antisemitism??? But if you understand that Palestinians by the vast majority are Islamists, and if you understand Islam, you will understand the motives they have to hate and seek to harm the Jews!

  • Jeff Preuss

    Nope.

  • Romeo Fulga

    Far more than Muslims do???? YOU are really blind sir! This kind of nonfactual and stupid statement is mind boggling, typical of Muslim propaganda or leftist ideology. Are you a Muslim by any chance?

  • Israel killed 448 children and over a thousand adult civilians in their attack on Gaza City. Do you think that was an unfortunate mistake? Whoops. Didn’t know your city had civilians living in it.

  • Yeah, no. Not according to Gallup.

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/148763/muslim-americans-no-justification-violence.aspx

    Here are some other highlights from Gallup. Turns out American evangelicals are a lot more rabid than American Muslims.

    https://niskanencenter.org/blog/muslim-americans-are-more-likely-to-reject-violence-intolerance-than-many-americans/

    But don’t let facts stand in the way of your position.

    I am not a Muslim. I am a Christian interested in justice and mercy – two things that are very difficult to promote in America when people like you read a Ravi Zacharias book and consider yourself fluent in Muslim theology.

  • kirby1

    Well for starters when he stated ” there is no reason to believe civil discourse is possible” that was a sign of respect and friendship, nope.

  • Romeo Fulga

    By the way, am very aware of the “nuanced” theological “frameworks” and hermeneutical conventions of the Muslim Tafsir and Mufasir scholars. I am aware of their play with Muhkam vs. Mutashabih hermeneutical conventions. I find them very unconvincing and even forced. History proves my point. Calling me bullshit does not mean anything.

  • Well, there’s also your lack of any work in academic journals or peer-reviewed books, but I didn’t want to get personal.

    Your estimation of Muslim theology is irrelevant. I’m sure they find your “That verse is in our Bible but we don’t actually have to do it” a little forced as well. What’s important in assessing the Muslim “threat” is how -they- interpret their scriptures, not yours.

    You can’t say Muslims are a threat to America because YOUR interpretation of their scriptures makes it seem like they should be. That’s completely ludicrous. If the vast majority of Muslim theological thought does not interpret those verses as a mandate to invade America and kill Christians, then only a fool would treat them as though they do.

  • Jeff Preuss

    He was pointing out that you’ve joined the discussion on the apparent offensive, and you brought in name-calling from the getgo, which can be quite off-putting.
    Nothing he said to you was uncivil.

    Have a nice day.

  • kirby1

    No Jeff,

    What he was falsely stating was I joined the discussion on the apparent offensive.

    Really, would you care to give examples of my so called name calling if true?

    If false you to have taken part in perpetuating a lie which is uncivil.

    Have a nice day.

  • James Quinn

    No, no– you actually should look him up Phil. He has been studying for ages… at online schools for “self-directed learners” and whose websites end in “.org” instead of .edu. It’s actually quite funny.

  • Well, I don’t normally do this, but he kept asking people to look him up to see what a scholar he was, and all I could find was a book review on Amazon. I am gratified to find that I, too, am a theologian and a scholar, and we can now discuss these issues as academic peers. Actually, I’ve posted four reviews on Amazon, so my body of work is more prolific.

  • James Quinn

    I think once you get so many Amazon reviews it counts as a dissertation or something.

  • Romeo Fulga

    “What’s important in assessing the Muslim “threat” is how -they- interpret their scriptures, not yours.” –Exactly!!!

    Anyway, I am wasting my time here. You say you are a Christian? Very interesting. From what you wrote here, people will rather think that you are a Muslim. You have a poor understanding of both the Bible and Islam. Anyway, that is not my concern. I said what I had to say. I will not change you, and it was not my intention. People of your sort cannot be changed by facts (at least most of them).

    Regarding Muslim “theological” thought, remember Taqiyyah! They are biased. Rather I would like you to read unbiased sources. Have you ever read the Islamic Scripures, namely the Qu’ran, the Hadiths and the Sunnas? If you did you would have a different opinion of Islam. Please do and study more. Disregard me. I am nobody. Just for your own sake. Peace and God bless!

  • Romeo Fulga

    Gallup has an extensive article about Muslim Americans. So much ado about nothing! They spent so much energy in dealing with things that are non essential. Instead of asking the wrong question “whether American Muslims have or not violence, they should rather ask whether Islam (scriptures and history) is violent or not!

  • I stick up for Muslims in America because I know ignorance of Islam is rampant here as you have aptly demonstrated, and this ignorance produces fear that produces persecution. As a member of our country’s most privileged religion -and- a follower of Christ, it is incumbent on me to do what I can to keep this group from being oppressed by people like yourself who believe Muslims are just waiting on an army of flying carpets to cut our heads off with scimitars and rule America with Sharia Law and their genie servitors.

    I have read the Qu’ran several times, the Sunnas twice, and the Hadiths twice. I am also a student of pencak silat. Several of my teachers are Muslim. I have attended Muslim worship services at a Mosque and heard a Sunni scholar explain his position at the Islamic Center of Central Missouri. I recognize that I am a 21st century Christian Westerner and am likely to grossly misinterpret Islam scriptures as much as they are prone to misinterpret mine, which is why I rely heavily on their own religious thinkers and teachers. I am not threatened by Islam, a Muslim president should we ever have one, or Muslims occupying many places of power in this country.

    And if for some reason ISIS manages to sweep Asia, Europe, and conquer America, well, then I’ll join my brothers and sisters across the globe and history who have lived faithfully under persecution and shown love to their oppressors.

  • Romeo Fulga

    I like your above comment. I agree to disagree. It is good and noble for you to want to see Islam from their perspective. You should try to see it from a perspective of people like me. It is evident that you have been brainwashed by Islamic deceit. I am glad to find out that you are a student of Pencak Silat. On a different subject, I am also a second degree black belt in Shotokan karate. My son is also a second degree black belt in Karate America style. That is a good thing we have in common. :)

  • Romeo Fulga

    You wrote: “…I know ignorance of Islam is rampant here as you have aptly demonstrated…” Well sir, if the majority of people in America, or elsewhere for that matter, would be as “ignorant” of Islam as I am, people would better understand the times and dangers we live in!

  • kirby1

    7 doctors have been killed in the last 25 years (US), assume all were none-Muslim now compare that small number with the 11,000 cases of Muslim honor crimes over a mere 4 years.

  • kirby1

    Wrong again Bones no Palestinians were forces out of their homes.

  • kirby1

    Wrong again Bones,

    Indeed, Class “A” status was granted to a number of Arab peoples who were ready for independence in the former Ottoman Empire, and only to Arab entities. Palestinian Arabs were not one of these Arab peoples. The Palestine Royal Report clarifies this point:
    “(2) The Mandate [for Palestine] is of a different type from the Mandate for Syria and the Lebanon and the draft Mandate for Iraq. These latter, which were called for convenience “A” Mandates, accorded with the fourth paragraph of Article 22. Thus the Syrian Mandate provided that the government should be based on an organic law which should take into account the rights, interests and wishes of all the inhabitants, and that measures should be enacted ‘to facilitate the progressive development of Syria and the Lebanon as independent States.’ The corresponding sentences of the draft Mandate for Iraq were the same. In compliance with them National Legislatures were established in due course on an elective basis.

    The Palestine Royal Report highlights additional differences between the Mandates:
    “Unquestionably, however, the primary purpose of the Mandate, as expressed in its preamble and its articles, is to promote the establishment of the Jewish National Home.
    “… Articles 4, 6 and 11 provide for the recognition of a Jewish Agency ‘as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration’ on matters affecting Jewish interests. No such body is envisaged for dealing with Arab interests.

  • kirby1

    Wrong again Bones, resolution 446 is not the last word:

    “If the Arabs had accepted the 1947 Partition Plan, then the further partition of Palestine into an Arab and Jewish state would have legal weight. But since they didn’t, the Jewish claim on all of Palestine remained in force,” Elder of Ziyon wrote, summarizing one of Kontorovich’s explanations. “Kontorovich said that there is a big question in international law about whether one can legally acquire territory via conquest in a defensive war. He looked up five sources written before 1967 on the question; two said yes, two said no and one didn’t think about it.”

    Those supporting the notion that settlements are legal also cite the 1967 U.N. Security Council Resolution 242 which called for “withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict.” They note that the phrase used was “territories occupied” not “the territories occupied,” leaving open the exact boundaries to which Israel was being called on to withdraw.

    Long story short, don’t start wars thinking you’ll finish Hitttlers dream and then whine when you loss. Don’t expect another Gaza terrorist state to be established in Judeah and Samara, one last Point, that story about the priest is BS

  • Jeff Preuss

    See also? Infowars.

  • Bones

    I have it from the horse’s mouth rather than some propagandist from the internet.

  • Bones

    He’s described you perfectly.

  • Bones

    Yes, you are ignorant.

  • Bones

    Not for those outside of Israel…..

  • Bones

    You mean Hamas who Israel supported in it’s civil war with Fatah.

    That Hamas?

  • jekylldoc

    kirby1 –
    It is clear that you feel Israel is entitled to the West Bank by right of conquest. What you omit to mention is that the Israelis who feel the same way by and large also feel that the remaining Arabs in this area must be excluded, in most cases evicted. And if it were not so, then Israel would stay within the bounds of international law while pursuing peace.

    The Palestinians have not helped matters. Allowing leadership armed and directed by outsiders who do not care about them has been a disaster for them. While their anger, like that of Israelis, is understandable, the hard work of making peace is not created by this self-justification but by working out common interests and building institutions that let life go on.

  • jekylldoc

    I see you care nothing for credibility. Okay, have it your way.

  • kirby1

    Wilfully blind.

  • kirby1

    “Right of conquest” what absolute ignorance,five Arab nations with the stated objective of destroying a country and then finish off with another holocaust, sick. More than 95% of the so-called Palestinian live under either the PA or Hamas. No Arab villages have been evicted in the desputed territories.

  • kirby1

    Yes when Hamas started in ’79 it did not show itself as the terrorists organization it is but was a network of schools, clinics, a library and kindergartens. The Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, which was officially recognized by Israel as a charity.

    And how did Israel support Hamas with arms, NO. It support took the form of
    officially recognizing it as a charity and then, in 1979, as an association and endorsed the establishment of the Islamic University of Gaza (which unfortunately has evolved into a hotbed of militancy)

    You’re right Israel should have snuffed it out from the beginning. Like you Israel should have known nothing good comes from them.

    Hamas’s launching of rockets at Israeli citizens, deadly terrorist attacks against Israeli women and children, executions were still to come.

  • Jeanne Fox

    What if Jack Chick and Alex Jones joined forces? Be afraid. Be very afraid.

  • Bones

    That was better than how Christians treated Jews.

  • Bones

    Rubbish it didn’t.

    But good to see you acknowledge that Israel supported terrorists.

  • Bones

    That’s you.

    Someone who justifies oppression.

  • jekylldoc

    kirby1 –

    I agree with you that the intended invasion was sick. War often is. That is one reason we have the Geneva Conventions.

    There are arguments to be made about whether taking control by military force was legitimate, but not really about whether it is okay to evict the residents, or to crowd them, lock down their movement, restrict access to water, and otherwise push them out.

    I think most Americans are fairly impressed at the lawful way Israel has conducted itself in a life-threatening situation. Many of us would not have been so scrupulous. But the attitude in Israel has definitely changed, and is still changing, toward a claim that Palestinians must be evicted. It isn’t there yet. Bibi would surely not delay a moment if it was. If Sheldon Adelson has his way, it won’t be long.

  • Bones

    Honestly you post rubbish

    “The international community considers the establishment of Israeli settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories illegal under international law.[1][2][3][4][5] Israel maintains that they are consistent with international law[6] because it does not agree that the Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the territories occupied in the 1967 Six-Day War.[7] The United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the International Court of Justice and the High Contracting Parties to the Convention have all affirmed that the Fourth Geneva Convention does apply.[8][9]

    Numerous UN resolutions have stated that the building and existence of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights are a violation of international law, including UN Security Council resolutions in 1979 and 1980.[10][11][12] UN Security Council Resolution 446 refers to the Fourth Geneva Convention as the applicable international legal instrument, and calls upon Israel to desist from transferring its own population into the territories or changing their demographic makeup. The reconvened Conference of the High Contracting Parties to the Geneva Conventions has declared the settlements illegal[13] as has the primary judicial organ of the UN, the International Court of Justice[14] and the International Committee of the Red Cross.”

    As for starting wars, who did start the 6 Day War?

    http://www.wrmea.org/1992-june/twenty-five-years-ago-this-month-who-started-the-six-day-war-on-june-5-1967-the-record-is-clear.html

  • kirby1

    No you justify Palestinian terrorism.

  • kirby1

    Yes it credited as a charity, just like the US credited the “Holy Land Foundation” and still has brought to justice its co-conspirator “CAIR”

  • kirby1

    Comparing 21st century Muslims with 16th century Christians, sound kind of desperate.

  • kirby1

    Actually no Arabs have been evicted as a result of the territories liberated resulting from the 67 war.

  • kirby1

    Did you really cut & paste from a blog (WRMEA) that posts conspiracy theories of how Jews control U.S. to support your thesis, pathetic.

  • kirby1

    I am truely hurt by your disrespectful response.

  • kirby1

    Being an apologist for Palestinian terrorist is propaganda.

  • Lol! So, the PCHR isn’t a credible source, but the Gatestone Institute, a conservative think tank, is. Gotcha.

    People Who Don’t Know What’s Going On With Palestinians
    =============
    The Palestinan Centre for Human Rights

    People Who Know the Real Truth About Palestinians
    ==============
    Wikipedia
    The Gatestone Institute

  • kirby1

    Reference Wikipedia when you critizes me for using it, sounds kind of desperate.

    Keep trying to sell PCHR as something other than the Palestinian mouth piece it is.

  • Tu Quoque fallacy

  • kirby1

    Nihil taurus crappus

  • That’s ok. You’ve provided a lot of evidence that your definition of “credible” is “whatever supports my prejudices.” You’re just kind of entertainment at this point. Every so often, I forget there are people out there who uncritically swallow whatever Fox News throws at them, and it’s good to be reminded that you exist.

  • jekylldoc

    Yes, and no prime ministers have been assassinated for making peace.

    One can see the rhetorical ground being prepared for real mass evictions, like we have not seen in Israel since 1949.

  • kirby1

    And I’ve quoted Fox News where?

    Talk about setting up strawman.

  • JD

    Phil, I could tell very early on that he had no desire for civil discourse. I’d recommend just dusting off the feet.

  • kirby1

    Note, the poster, jekylldoc, failed to present any evidence contradicting my post:

    “Actually no Arabs have been evicted as a result of the territories liberated resulting from the 67 war.”

  • jekylldoc
  • Jeff Preuss

    Yes, but the little cartoons would likely be fascinating.

  • Jeanne Fox

    Yes, they would! LOL.

  • kirby1

    “Palestinian shepherd asked why the soldiers were moving Arabs out of the newly acquired military zone but not Jews”

    – Maybe Jews don’t represent the security risks that Palestinians do as the recent Knife Intafada demonstrated. Also note that even according to the “journalist” no Arab homes were take by settlers but a grazing field, the vast majority of whice has never been private but state land from Ottoman to British to Jordanian to Israeli. And just like the US, illigal houses both Israeli and Palestinian are dismantled. Palestinian settlers funded by foreign money are notorious for putting up sheds on government property as a land grabbing method.

  • jekylldoc

    kirby1 –

    “Maybe Jews don’t represent the security risks that Palestinians do”

    Well, let’s see – Israeli Prime Ministers assassinated by Arabs: 0
    Israeli Prime Ministers assassinated by extremist settlers 1

    You’ll be pleased, I am sure, to know that the settlers are busy trying to up their game until they are as violent as the Arabs. When they are as desperate, perhaps they will succeed.

  • kirby1

    You forgot:

    The number of Palestinians who assailants US Presidential candidates 1: Robert Kennedy assassinated by SirHan Sirhan

    I’ll be more than happy to supply you with a list of Palestine terrorist attacks and I can garentee it will dwarf 1, just say go for it.

  • jekylldoc

    kirby1 –

    My point is that if security risks were the reason, settlements would be at an end. Your propaganda convinces no one. Anyone who read the article can see what is going on – annexation. You are sure that no houses have been involved (except for those of the families of terrorists, or suspected terrorists, or in a few cases people mistaken for terrorists) but everyone knows Israel is not going to accept the present Arab population as part of their voting population, but they are going to take the land. So we are just waiting for the other shoe to drop. Might be 5 years, might be 30 years. Might be a threat held over the heads of the terrorist groups who keep this conflict alive. Might be a gradual process of making life more and more intolerable under the excuse of security risks, knowing full well that continued provocations push young men to desperate actions.

    But what it certainly is not is innocent.

  • disqus_UlcU6Bx7fh

    World War 2 is in the 20th century and the massacre of Jews was done by Christians.

  • disqus_UlcU6Bx7fh
  • kirby1

    Hi Christine,

    Hope all is well, FYI

    Lidblog:

    “As dhimmis, Christians living in Palestinian-controlled territories are not treated as the equals of Muslims. They are subjected to debilitating legal, political, cultural, and religious restrictions. This has become a critical problem for the Palestinian Christians in the West Bank and Gaza. Muslim groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad have built a culture of hatred upon the age-old foundations of Islamic society. Moreover, the PA has adopted Islamic law into its draft constitution. “In 2006, Hassan El-Masalmeh, a member of the Bethlehem City Council and local Hamas leader, publicly advocated implementing a discriminatory tax on non-Muslim residents, known as al-jeziya. The Koran requires the imposition of this tax on all dhimmis. It legalizes the second-class status of such residents. El-Masalmeh stated that, ‘We in Hamas intend to implement this tax someday. We say it openly and we welcome everyone to Palestine, but only if they agree to live under our rules.’ One example occurred in late 2007 when an evangelical pastor was forced to leave Ramallah under threats from Tanzim gunmen; soon after, his congregation dispersed. Clergy under threat by gunmen should at least make a good-faith effort to use their media connections to publicize their plight and thereby garner a degree of protection for themselves and their followers. “In such an environment, Christian Arabs have found themselves victims of prejudice and hate crimes. Tens of thousands of Palestinian Christians have left their ancestral homes and emigrated to North America, Central America, South America, Europe, and Australia. They flee to almost any country that will issue them a visa. “A majority of the Christians living under PA and Hamas rule are Greek Catholic or Greek Melkite. Others are Lutherans, Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Syriacs, Armenians, Copts, Maronites, Ethiopian Orthodox Christians, as well as several other denominations. The Palestinian Christian population has always been concentrated in and around the cities of Jerusalem, Ramallah, and Bethlehem.”

  • kirby1

    And don’t forget Palestinian supported the Nazi, even today Palestinians invoke the holicaust.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=

  • kirby1
  • ER

    Thank you for this blog!! Currently I’m living in Israel and have seen first hand the horrible treatment that Palestinians receive from Israelis. I’m convinced that if followers of Jesus and churches in the US were aware of what is done, they would be appalled and would withdraw support! “Blessed are the peacemakers….” I think it is time for Americans to be a peacemaker, a REAL peacemaker between Palestinians and Israelis.

  • kirby1

    Interesting, even though the site bills itself as a Christian orientated website a significant number of poster are will to throw Christains under the bus for the sake of Islam.

  • JD

    Thank you for your post and for your “boots on the ground” perspective on the situation over there. I’ll be over there in Sept with Christian Peacemaker Teams. I cannot wait to serve the Lord in the area.

  • kirby1

    You mean Israeli Arabs who have full citizen rights or those in the disputed territories where: Israeli “brutal occupation” had led to dramatic improvements in general well-being, placing the population of the territories ahead of most of their Arab neighbors.

    a. Life expectancy increased from 48 to 82,

    b. Infant mortality decreased by 75%,

    c. Employment increased significantly,
    d. Average income increased significantly, more than in adjacent Arab states.
    e. Per capital GDP increased significantly, more than in adjacent Arab states except for those with oil income.
    f. The number of Arab houses with running water increased significantly,
    g. The number of Arab houses with electricity increased significantly,
    h. The number of Arab homes cooking with electricity and gas increased significantly
    i. Before the Israeli liberation, the number of colleges or universities was zero, afterwards seven.
    j.. Literacy increased significantly.

    In the economic sphere, most of this progress was the result of access to the far larger and more advanced Israeli economy: the number of Palestinians working in Israel rose from zero in 1967 to 66,000 in 1975 and 109,000 by 1986, accounting for 35 percent of the employed population of the West Bank and 45 percent in Gaza. Close to 2,000 industrial plants, employing almost half of the work force, were established in the territories under Israeli rule.

    During the 1970’s, the West Bank and Gaza constituted the fourth fastest-growing economy in the world — ahead of such “wonders” as Singapore, Hong Kong, and Korea, and substantially ahead of Israel itself. Although GNP per capita grew somewhat more slowly, the rate was still high by international standards, with per-capita GNP expanding tenfold between 1968 and 1991 from $165 to $1,715 (compared with Jordan’s $1,050, Egypt’s $600, Turkey’s $1,630, and Tunisia’s $1,440). By 1999, Palestinian per-capita income was nearly double Syria’s, more than four times Yemen’s, and 10 percent higher than Jordan’s (one of the better off Arab states). Only the oil-rich Gulf states and Lebanon were more affluent.

  • kirby1

    “I cannot wait to serve the Lord in the area” hopefully you’re not referring to an Allah Arkbar moment.

  • JD

    Are you this negative towards everyone in real life, or is it a product of the anonymity of the internet?

    I’m a follower of Christ and I’m going to be in the area serving my Lord by working to promote peace and be a comfort for the broken. If that ends up in harm or death, so be it.

  • kirby1

    Stay safe:
    Two activists have exposed a disturbing phenomenon that they say is an open secret within the “peace camp”: female “peace” activists are routinely harassed and raped by the Arabs of Judea and Samaria with whom they have come to identify. They say the phenomenon has gotten worse lately and that many foreign women end up as wives of local Arabs against their will, but cannot escape their new homes.

    Roni Aloni Sedovnik, a feminist activist, penned an article in News1 – an independent website run by respected investigative reporter Yoav Yitzchak – under the heading “The Left’s Betrayal of Female Peace Activists Who were Sexually Assaulted.”

    http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israeli-leftist-activists-we-are-being-sexually-harassed-in-the-west-bank-1.419167

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/139738

  • JD

    Thanks, but not concerned about my safety. If that were the case, I wouldn’t go. I know CPT delegates have been attacked in the past, but it’s was Israeli settlers that were the attackers. One female CPT delegate ended up with a broken arm, broken rib and punctured lung. Another was attacked by a settler and had a gash on the back of his head.

  • kirby1

    Two activists have exposed a disturbing phenomenon that they say is an open secret within the “peace camp”: female “peace” activists are routinely harassed and raped by the Arabs of Judea and Samaria with whom they have come to identify. They say the phenomenon has gotten worse lately and that many foreign women end up as wives of local Arabs against their will, but cannot escape their new homes.

    Roni Aloni Sedovnik, a feminist activist, penned an article in News1 – an independent website run by respected investigative reporter Yoav Yitzchak – under the heading “The Left’s Betrayal of Female Peace Activists Who were Sexually Assaulted.”

  • JD

    Okay? Unfortunately, people on both sides are engaging in violence. That’s what CPT and other peace advocates are there to address. Nobody is saying Palestinians are blameless, just as Israel isn’t blameless. You do realize that people on both sides are resorting to evil, right?

    The church’s job isn’t to pick the lesser of two evils. Our job is to reject the evils of Israeli violence and the evils of Palestinian violence, and to show the Jesus Way. Our job is to be peacemakers, and that means rejecting the violence of both sides.

  • JD

    LOL liking your own post that’s really nothing but lies. Nice.

  • kirby1

    Founded 1986 in Chicago by a coalition of church groups, including the Mennonite Central Committee and the Church of the Brethren, to promote peace and non-violence; main focus in the Middle East.
    Funding provided by affiliated church groups in the US, Canada and UK.
    Sends “conflict resolution teams” (1-2 weeks) and “peacemaker teams” (longer-term) to Palestinian areas; little or no contact with Israeli society.
    Participants return to their churches to advocate Palestinian positions.
    Advocacy blames Israel for Palestinian suffering, ignoring terrorism and corruption.
    Activities promote anti-Israel divestment campaign by church groups

    CPT continues to play an active role in the international NGO campaign to delegitimize Israel by identifying it with apartheid South Africa and promoting boycotts and divestment (the “Durban Strategy”). The CPT delegation in Hebron hosted “solidarity visits” in the March 2006 “global advocacy week concerning the situation in Palestine and Israel.” Led by Palestinian Christian NGO Sabeel and the Joint Advocacy initiative of the East Jerusalem YMCA, this advocacy week claimed to “alleviate Palestinian suffering,” but focused all criticism on Israel, and included meetings with biased and politicized NGOs such as ICAHD. CPT’s website offers readers links to publications by the ‘Stop the Apartheid Wall’ anti-Israel campaign. In 2007, CPT joined with the International Solidarity Movement (ISM), in its “Olive Harvest Campaign.” ISM’s activities endanger the lives of foreign ‘peace volunteers,’ and sabotage important security measures. (In March 2003 Israeli troops captured a senior Islamic Jihad member hiding in an ISM office in Jenin).

    CPT members regularly appear in forums which promote the Durban Strategy, facilitated by the NGO’s “Speakers Bureau”. Nathan Bender, a CPT speaker, addressed the February 2006 ‘Israeli Apartheid Conference’ at the University of Toronto on the subject of “Al-Khalil (Hebron): The Effects of Apartheid on a West Bank City.” Other speeches dealt with topics including “South Africa & Israel: the Apartheid Connection” and “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine and the Right of Return.” Kathleen Kern, another member of CPT’s Speakers Bureau, wrote in a CPT report, “Israels [sic] treatment of its Arab population is a form of apartheid, plain and simple.”

    Conclusion:
    CPT delegations claim to provide a “non violent peacemaking” presence in Hebron, but their public statements reveal their highly one-sided and politicized approach. Facilitated by CPT publications and the speakers bureau, they selectively report their experiences in order to delegitimize Israeli actions and erase any Palestinian responsibility.

  • JD

    Yes, I’m aware of what CPT does. They condemn violence on both sides, but are naturally more vocal against the side that possesses the most power. They do not support the violence of either side though.

    Just a random question. Do you present any of your own points, or do you just cut/paste everything you google?

  • JD

    I’d really recommend actually checking out the CPT site. You can find it at http://www.cpt.org or http://www.cptpalestine.com. They are a great organization focused on following the nonviolent, self-sacrificial example given to us by Christ.

  • kirby1

    If I wanted to read a self-advertisement piece I would read a McDonalds menu.

  • Blake

    Not those of us who know right from wrong and to stand by the downtrodden oppressed, not the oppressors

  • kirby1

    As compared to making things up like yourself.

    CPT delegations claim to provide a “non violent peacemaking” presence in Hebron, but their public statements reveal their highly one-sided and politicized approach. Facilitated by CPT publications and the speakers bureau, they selectively report their experiences in order to delegitimize Israeli actio

  • Blake

    Zionist machinations have got to you too. Gullible ones never question just blindly lap it up

  • JD

    What am I making up? The stories of the CPT delegates being attacked can be found on their websites. I am sorry these don’t mesh with your “Israelis do nothing wrong…ever” mindset. You are free to check out what CPT actually does, but then again, you prefer to plagiarize the arguments of others instead of actually going to the source.

  • JD

    Blake, he clearly believes Israelis and Jews never do anything wrong. There’s really no point in discussing things with him. He will plagiarize other websites and pass off his comments as his own, and ignore any evidence that runs counter to his narrative. Of course, there’s the name-calling as well.

  • kirby1

    Obviously your willfully blind, or ignorant.

  • JD

    So you will just plagiarize other websites instead of going to the actual source.

  • kirby1

    You obviously have a problem with Jews, I guess the two millennia of prosecution you’ve enjoyed isn’t enough, JD.

  • kirby1

    I will bring to light information in its original form and not make it up as you do.

  • JD

    I have no issue with Jewish people. I just don’t believe Israelis are blameless in the Israel/Palestine conflict. Both sides resort to the evils of violence. Both sides have hands stained in blood. I want both sides to lay their arms down and break this cycle of violence.

    Also, what “prosecution” are you talking about? Do you mean “persecution”?

  • kirby1

    Jew wrong, Muslim right. next thought process please. LOL.

  • JD

    Once again, what have I made up? Also, you are plagiarizing, plain and simple. This page is full of posts that are clearly nothing but cut/paste, yet no citations to the sites you actually stole from. At least have an intellectual honesty to cite your sources.

  • JD

    No. Israelis have been wrong. Palestinians have been wrong. The fact that you seem utterly incapable of seeing the fault of both sides just shows how biased you are in this. You are not thinking clearly.

    Let me ask you something….are you Jewish or Israeli?

  • kirby1

    Actually CPT is notorious for blaming Israel and ignoring Palestinian violence.

    Actually I am an American Jew, and because you asked let me say “fvck you a-hole”

  • JD

    No, just because they focus on Israel (understandable given the disproportionate responses and the fact they they are the ones w/ the power in the fight) doesn’t mean they ignore Palestinian violence.

    Now, I’m sure you can find a website to cut/paste from that says they ignore it, but they seek to promote peace. That doesn’t come from ignoring violence by either side. It comes by working with both sides to reject violence. It’s why they work with both Israeli and Palestinian peace activists.

  • kirby1

    Have a problem with fact, since you say it’s cut & paste you can give the cite yourself.

  • JD

    Here you go: http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/christian_peacemaker_teams_cpt_

    You blatantly cut/paste and provide no citations. Your post on CPT above is taken directly from the link I’m providing you. You show a serious lack of integrity by posting the way you do. You take someone else’s work and pass it off as your own. It’s disgusting and reveals an alarming lack of integrity and intellectual honesty.

    I’m done with you, as you have shown who you are. There’s no point in trying to engage in honest and civil discussions with someone that posts the way you do.

  • kirby1

    Thanks for the spellcheck the last refuge for someone whose failed the debate.

    Note CPT demonize Israel yet give Palestinians a free pass, never see CPT demonstration against Palestinians as is consistently does against Israel.

  • JD

    Are you Jewish or Israeli? Your statement, while untrue, is ironic given how much you ignore Israeli violence. CPT condemns all violence, but they naturally focus criticism on violence coming from those with all the power.

  • kirby1

    Thank you for the citation, you can easily do it yourself as shown, now admit that CPT is an ant-Israel organization that demonizes Israel and glorifies and justifies Palestinian violence.

  • JD

    They don’t justify Palestinian violence. Please provide one source actually providing evidence that they justify Palestinian violence. They are a pacifist organization. To justify any violence would be against their core beliefs. Focusing criticism at Israel does not mean they justify Palestinian violence. They aren’t anti-Israel. They are anti-violence.

    You continually lie and plagiarize here. It’s unreal.

  • kirby1

    Demonizing Israel and glorifying and justifying Palestinian violence is what CPT does, two-thousand years of Christain persecution of Jews is not enough for this supposed Christain organization.

  • JD

    You know repeating a lie, over and over, does not make it magically true. You claim they justify Palestinian violence? Prove it. Provide one source with actual evidence (not just opinion) that they justify Palestinian violence.

  • JD

    Kirby, why won’t you answer my question? Are you Jewish or Israeli?

  • kirby1

    I did you must have over looked it, please check.

  • JD

    Can’t find it. Mind answering again?

  • kirby1

    I have it in my disqus site, try again I’m sure you have it.

  • JD

    Nope. Can’t find it. Mind answering again? It’s a simple yes/no question. You can even just put a ‘Y’ or ‘N’. Are you Jewish or Israeli?

  • kirby1

    According to the disqus site my response shows it posted 25 minutes ago (also shows up when view discussion), unfortunately my rule is that sorte of question only gets answered once per poster.

  • JD

    Your diqus is private and I can’t see. Odd rule, especially given how much you will plagiarize from other sites, but you won’t answer a question like that more than once?

  • kirby1

    Sorry JD but I’m not here for your entertainment, I’ve answered the question once already (with confirmation on my discus) now go play you nonsense or spellcheck with someone else.

  • JD

    Quite telling. You tell me your disqus contains confirmation, yet your account is private and nobody is able to see it. Using a search function doesn’t lead me to your alleged answer either.

    But hey, why am I not surprised. You clearly have a bias w/ regards to this issue, and it’s even leading you to plagiarize and lie about the positions of others. Zero integrity.

  • kirby1

    The antiwar Christian Peacemaker Teams (CPT) began organizing activities related to the Arab-Israeli conflict in 1992, when the group dispatched “violence-reduction workers” to interfere with the anti-terrorist efforts of Israeli Defense Force (IDF) soldiers in Palestinian towns. The number of CPT missions in support of Palestinians has grown steadily over time, now constituting half of the organization’s worldwide activity. CPT cooperates with, shares personnel with, and works alongside the International Solidarity Movement (ISM), which candidly justifies Palestinian terrorism as a legitimate form of “resistance.”

    JD, You’re more than welcome to add the site

  • kirby1

    CPT’s anti-Zionist agenda is also evident from the groups it affiliates with. For example, CPT helped coordinate, along with the International Solidarity Movement, the 2007 “Olive Harvest Campaign” during which “internationals” stood between Israeli soldiers and Palestinians in a “direct action” endeavor. The goal was not to stop all violence but to “document and expose attacks by settlers” on Palestinians and to tell the world that “the occupation must end and the wall must fall.”[38] The CPT members’ affiliation with the ISM is quite troubling: while this organization bills itself as promoting nonviolence, its founder, Adam Shapiro has excused Palestinian violence, asserting that “Palestinian resistance must take on a variety of characteristics, both violent and nonviolent. But most importantly, it must develop a strategy involving both aspects. Nonviolent resistance is no less noble than carrying out a suicide operation.”[39] Clearly, this is contrary to Anabaptist principles of nonresistance.

    JD you’re more than welcome to proved the site

  • JD

    Oh look. More cut/paste without any citation. Like I said. You have shown yourself to lack integrity. The fact that you are so willing to steal the arguments of others and pass them off as your own is unreal.

    But if you want to actually learn about CPT, I’d recommend checking out their website. They are an organization that promotes nonviolence. They do not justify the violence of either side. But, since they don’t turn a blind eye to Israeli violence, that means they apparently must justify Palestinian violence. Such a warped way of seeing the world.

    From the CPT site: http://cpt.org/about/mission

    Mission
    Christian Peacemaker Teams: Building partnerships to transform violence and oppression.

    Vision
    A world of communities that together embrace the diversity
    of the human family and live justly and peaceably with all creation.

    Values
    Christian Peacemaker Teams is committed to work and relationships that:

    Honor and reflect the presence of faith and spirituality
    Strengthen grassroots initiatives
    Transform structures of domination and oppression
    Embody creative non-violence and liberating love

    How scary?!

  • JD

    More plagiarism.

  • kirby1

    Give the source, then tell us why it’s wrong.

  • JD

    Oh hey, it looks like you edited and added an answer.

    Why am I an asshole because I asked you? You clearly are biased in this discussion, so I was curious as to what may be the source of your bias. Thank you for finally answering.

  • JD

    Sorry. That’s your job. You are the one plagiarizing. Not me. You are the one showing your total lack of integrity and intellectual dishonesty. Not me.

  • kirby1

    So you can’t counter, thanks.

  • JD

    Can’t counter what? You told me to provide a source for the information you cut/paste. What am I supposed to counter? It’s not my job to find your sources. You clearly cut/paste it because there are clearly citations in it. Funny, because the person you stole from had enough integrity to provide citations within their work.

    Now, if you are wanting me to address the comments of someone that is not part of CPT, then fine. I think Shapiro’s comments are disgusting. As I’ve asked for already, please provide any evidence of CPT actually justifying Palestinian violence. As the information that you stole said, it would be a violation of Anabaptist principles to justify violence. CPT does not justify violence though.

  • kirby1

    Actually that post has remained unedited, now you know why you’re and a-hole, finally.
    Your hatred and demonization of Israel and apologist for Palestinian violence is a common thread among your associates and organization.

  • JD

    Why am I an asshole? Why is asking you that question so off limits? Your bias is clear. Your refusal to see any wrong in Israel’s actions is clear. I just wanted to confirm why you are biased. It’s okay. I get it. We all have our own biases, whether we realize it or not. I just wanted to understand where you were coming from. Thank you for finally answering.

  • JD

    BTW, still waiting on any evidence of CPT “glorifying and justifying” Palestinian violence.

  • kirby1

    As soon as I get that source for settlers throughing out Palestinian from their homes and taking it over, sorry state own grazing land does not apply.

  • JD

    LOL just found your source. Priceless. No bias there at all.

  • JD

    lol so you refuse to support your claim? In actuality, you are simply unable to support your claim, so you’re going to move the goalposts. Nice. If you hurry to the googler, I’m sure you can find some other stuff to plagiarize that has nothing to do with CPT.

  • kirby1

    There was one occasion in 1996, and perhaps another in 2002, when CPT spokesmen protested Hamas violence against Jewish civilians. there has been no neo-pacifist voice raised against the ongoing rocket attacks from Gaza. CPT activist said they have no position to do anything about rockets.

    Your more than welcome to provide the source.

  • JD

    Oh, and a quick google search provided this: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/nov/23/jewish-settlers-arab-area-palestinians-evicted

    Here’s the story of a Palestinian Christian having his land stolen: https://vimeo.com/29677206

  • JD

    Wow. Do you really believe that’s how discussions work? That you cut/paste and it’s up to others to find your source? Why are you so afraid of providing your sources? Or more accurately, why do you lack such integrity that you are willing to steal the works of others and pass them off as your own?

  • kirby1

    Claiborne who participation in Christian Peacemaker Teams (CPT) at the start of the U.S. invasion of Iraq, but was strangely silent about Saddam Hussein’s slaughter of thousands of his own people and support for the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. Like Hybels, Shane fervently disavows the use of violence and rejects the idea that he is anti-Israel, but there is no question that he has become a useful tool in the campaign to turn Evangelicals against the Jewish state.

    Hi JD please provide source.

  • Blake

    Humanity have a problem with brutal oppressors whatever their persuasion

  • JD

    Why do you keep asking me to provide your sources? It is completely idiotic to do so. You cite your own sources. It’s not my job. I mean, seriously. I don’t get this demand that I provide links to your sources. It makes no sense whatsoever. Just include a link when you post your cut/paste.

    But, Shane Claiborne is disavows the use of violence, as the person you are plagiarizing even concedes.

  • kirby1
  • kirby1

    Then Arab countries oppressing non-Muslims (Jews, Christians, Hindu Buddhist) , women, gays and Africans must be on top of your list along with mainstream antisemites.

  • JD

    kirby,
    This will be my final post to you, as I don’t believe this conversation is going anywhere. I’m not sure why you refuse to cite your sources or why you refuse to support your claim that CPT “glorifies and justifies” Palestinian violence. But, without those, there really is no point in continuing. You will continue to make claims without providing support. I’ll continue to ask for support of those claims. It’s insulting that you believe CPT wants Christian persecution of Jews to continue

    Just a helpful hint for future engagements though. If you are going to cut/paste from a source, please provide a link. It’s not the responsibility of others to dig through the internet and find your sources. It’s your responsibility to provide citations for the information you cut/paste. Stop passing off other people’s work as your own.

    I get that you are biased in this debate. It is clear and you confirmed the reason why you are biased. That’s fine. Everyone has their biases. The problem I have is that you take those biases and use them to make sick allegations about other people and organizations. Nobody wants to see Jewish people persecuted. CPT certainly doesn’t. Christians, especially those that embrace nonviolence, want the violence to stop on both sides. We want Israeli and Palestinian to both lay down their arms. We want both sides to see the supremacy of the way Christ taught. The way of nonviolent, self-sacrificial love. It doesn’t make us anti-Israel or anti-semitic. Seeing that Israel bears some of the blame for the mess over there does not mean we glorify or justify Palestinian violence. This is one of my biggest gripes when this issue is discussed. People like you treat it as if those one side is innocent and the other is guilty. So when we mention the blame of both sides, we get called anti-Israeli.

    I apologize if I offended you. My tone began to get harsh and I apologize. That’s why this will be my last post to you. All I ask is that you at least consider my suggestions regarding how you engage others. Stop plagiarizing. Stop demanding that people provide links to your sources. Stop seeing everything as some attempt to persecute Jews. Believe it or not, there are many people, especially within the peace community, that simply just want the violence to stop because we see how destructive and ineffective it is. We don’t want either side to win or lose. We want to stop viewing it as a win vs. lose battle. We want to promote peace. We want to promote the way of Christ.

    Peace to you.

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    Hi, a number of things need to be stated here; the above article presents no actual information. So here is a little history. re the pre-67 borders – there is no such thing. After the Palestinians and Arab League rejected the 47 UN Partition Plan, they attacked the Jewish community there. Having accepted every one of the three peace plans put forward, the Jews then defended themselves, and the cease fire lines of 1948 became a de-facto border (the Green Line), but these were never recognised as a border by the Arab League, nor by the Jordanians who had occupied the West bank, nor by the Egyptians who had occupied Gaza. Had they done so, there would have been no more conflict. In any event, after 19 years, in 1967 the Egyptians closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping, kicked out the UN peace-keepers in the Sinai, mobilized their armed forces and publically declared they were about to wipe Israel out. Israel struck first, and captured Gaza and Sinai. At the same time, they contacted the Jordanians via the US and the UN, and told them if they stayed out of the fight, then Israel had no quarrel with them. Jordan chose rather to attack across the Green Line, which it had never accepted as a legitimate border in any case. Its artillery shelled Jewish Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, its air force attacked both cities also, and its ground forces attacked across the Green Line in three places. At this point, Israel responded and captured the West Bank. The question is, why should a cease fire line which the Arabs never recognised as a legit border, which they crossed with armies and which only existed for 19 years, now be considered as internationally binding for all time?

    Two quick examples; in 1927, Orthodox Jews legally purchased some barren land south of Jerusalem from German Trappist monks. This became the Kfar Etzion block. In 1948 the settlement was illegally attacked by the Jordanian army (the area was still officially under British rule), 240 men and women were killed, the rest captured. Over 400,000 trees that they had planted were then uprooted. Now, 19 years later, the now vacant land was again under Israeli control. The children of the original settlement who had been evacuated before it fell then asked to go and re-build where their parents had lived and died. Today the Etzion area is a thriving community of over 20,000. Why shouldn’t they be allowed to live there? Also in 1948, the Jordanian army ethnically cleansed the Jewish quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem. Jews had been living there since the time of Jesus, with a few interruptions. The Jews there were non-Zionist, and pacifist, but were driven out anyway, and the synagogues destroyed, used as toilets etc. Again, after 19 years, Jews returned, cleaned up and rebuilt the Jewish quarter. Why should they be forced to leave again just because the Palestinians rejected peace in 47 and again in 67? Clearly, the majority of the West bank is occupied by the Palestinian population, and a two state solution would be great, and the Palestinian state would loosely resemble the 48 cease fire lines they rejected then, but to slavishly insist that these lines, which were never respected when they existed, must now be inviolate and absolute, is ridiculous.

  • kirby1

    Your demonization of Israel and justification of Palestine violence might strongly suggest to others an underlying antisemitism, which I have never pursued. Unbiased and honest understanding does not mean taking up the Palestinian mantle, CPT has consistently supported BDS, interfered with IDF security actions and justified and empowered Palestinian violence. It may wish to be viewed as neutral but its publications, meeting and demonstrations says just the opposite.

    Good day.

  • kirby1, I’ve read through many of your letters and from those opposing your views.

    Would you answer several questions?

    First, let me emphasize, I’ve lived and worked for some months in northern Israel, about 1 1/2 kilolmeters from Palestine.
    Second, I agree with your description of Palestinian support of killing. Very friendly, nice Palestinians I knew did want to kill Jews:-(
    Third, there is more freedom for all people in Israel than in Palestine, Gaza, or any other Muslim country in the world. That’s the facts.

    Now the questions:

    #1 Do you agree or disagree that there is prejudice against Arabs in Israel?

    #2 Is it true or not true that some Israeli settlements get water continuously even for swimming pools, while Arab villages sometimes only get water for a short time twice a week?

    #3 Is it true or not true that the Israeli government has been trying to take away the land of the Christian family at Tent of the Nations, land they have ownership with a deed from the time of the Ottoman Empire and that the Israeli army bulldozed their orchard?

    Please don’t bring up all the evil that Palestinians have done. Since I used to teach about this for years, I can probably give even more horrific examples of horrific actions by Palestinians.

    Also, we were only 1 and 1/2 kilometers from a Muslim attack of innocent Jewish civilians in an apartment complex.

    My last question is not, are the Jewish people as bad as the Muslims or the Christians,
    BUT
    #4 Are Jewish leaders now loving their neighbors as themselves?

    When I lived in Israel, there was even prejudice against Sephardic Jews by Ashkenazic Jews.

    Who ever we are, we ought not compare ourselves to those behaving worse than us, but by the truths of equality, human rights, and justice.

    Is the Israeli govermment doing that?

    No.

  • Bones

    Yet you demonise Palestinians and justify Israeli violence.

    Go figure.

    I know people living over there to know you are full of sh#t.

  • Bones

    Well I know people it has happened to.

  • JD

    I posted a couple links in response to this, but he never responded.

    “Oh, and a quick google search provided this: http://www.theguardian.com/wor

    Here’s the story of a Palestinian Christian having his land stolen: https://vimeo.com/29677206

  • JD

    His last post is why I won’t respond to him any more. Nowhere in my comments did I demonize Israel or justify Palestinian violence. Nowhere. He keeps making that claim about CPT justifying and glorifying Palestinian violence, but has yet to provide a single shred of evidence to support the claim. It’s just nothing but lies. I don’t get it.

    I think I’ve been very consistent in condemning violence on both sides, but with emotional subjects like this, especially when it hits close to home for him, you tend to end up with these types of inflammatory accusations that have no basis in fact.

  • Blake

    Stop projecting your own ugly inhumane qualities on those seeking justice for a grave injustice lasting almost 7 decades now.

  • Larry TheKeyboardist Blake

    I can’t be the only one who finds it ironic that a country whose most common religion is the same religion that was a favorite target of the Nazis during WWII is now trying to do the same exact things to Palestine and other Middle Eastern nations.

  • Yonah

    Liar.

  • You wrote, “The question is, why should a cease fire line which the Arabs never recognised as a legit border, which they crossed with armies and which only existed for 19 years, now be considered as internationally binding for all time?”

    Some of your points are valid. I used to teach the history of Israel to students. But you need to keep in mind that over 100 years ago (before massive illegal immigration) Jewish people only made up about 5% of the area that is now Israel/Palestine. Back then most of the inhabitants were Arabs.

    Consider an analogy: why should the Mexican-U.S. border be considered valid because the U.S. stole almost a 1/3 of Mexico over 150 years ago?

    Does that however mean that people of Mexico have the right to come onto my property now (which used to belong to Mexico), confiscate it, bulldoze down my orchard, destroy my olive trees, discriminate against me, intimidate my family like Jewish people do to Arab people?

    Yet that is what is happening in Israel/Palestine! Jewish people from the U.S. and elsewhere move there and set up settlements on land that has belonged to Arabs for a very long time.

    Jewish people feel they have a right of return, but they need to take in consideration the rights of the Arab people already living there just like Mexican people if they come back to our area need to consider that we have lived here a long time.

    I used to be very pro-Israeli until I lived in Israel. I am still very strongly against the Islamic Palestinian government and the murders by Muslims.
    BUT
    all people there need to SHARE.

    Since Jewish people consider themselves the more ethical, they ought to start first.

  • What is your opinion of Musalaha and other organizations who bring Jewish people and Arab people together to listen to each other and try to understand each other?
    https://www.musalaha.org/home/

  • JD, please check back through the last year or two of CPT’s newsletters.
    We used to support CPT for a number of years until their newsletters and information became more and more one-sided.

    The reason we stopped supporting them wasn’t because of any overt support by CPT of killing, but because they seldom if ever condemned Palestinian violence in the same way they condemned Israeli violence. In fact it got so in the last few issues of the CPT newsletter that it came across more like a political outlook, and seldom if ever emphasized what the organization was doing to bring reconciliation between Israelis and Palestinians.

    I hope that CPT will recover their lost original goal.

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    hi, the analogy breaks down because the Jewish people never stole the land – under both the Ottomans and the British, they would have been unable to, even had they so wished. There is a lot of evidence that this was definitely not the case. in 1928, Ben-Gurion said “we dare not deprive a single Arab child of his rights, even if by doing that we realize all of our aspirations.” Many of the early, socialist Zionists saw in the Arab peasants their natural allies. The clash was not inevitable. Things certainly changed after the 1929 anti-Jewish riots and murders to the point where inter-communal warfare became more likely, and numerous peace plans were proposed to diffuse this. every plan was accepted by the Jewish community, and opposed with violence by the Arabs. up until 1947, no land had been taken from anyone, except that Jews were forbidden to buy land in much of the Mandate. When all peace plans were rejected in 47/48, and the Arabs cut the food and water to Jewish Jerusalem, threatening mass ethnic cleansing or massacre for its 100,000 civilians, the Jewish forces went on the offensive, and after the Arab League rejected an extension to the Red Cross ceasefire in 48, and again attacked the Jewish State, many Palestinian Arabs did leave. At the same time, and on into the 50s, something like 800,000 Jews were expelled from Arab lands by their governments as pay-back for the Jewish State. Israel took all these people in and gave them citizenship and homes. It is a great pity that the Arab nations did not show similar generosity and care for the Palestinian refugees that went to them.

  • Nick

    Mr. Kriby, why the hate? As a new testament God follower it doesn’t fit into my theology. Does this level of hate fly with modern Jewish folks? I am not trying to be a jerk here. I don’t know any Jewish people personally.

  • Yes, I agree the analogy isn’t exact. My main point was that even if one wants to argue that Jewish people have a “right of return” based on the ancient past, that still doesn’t give Jewish people the right to take land from Arab people now living on it, to take their water, to destroy their trees, etc.

    I am well aware of the socialist Zionist founders. I was a volunteer on a Jewish kibbutz and read extensively of the wondrous stories of those early days of Zionism, where the ideal was that Jew and Arab would be brothers.

    And I learned about the anti-Jewish massacres and that many Arabs supported the Nazis back in the 1930-40’s.

    We are in agreement on that history.

    And I agree with you on the gross dereliction of the Muslims countries which didn’t take in refugees. Etc.

    That wasn’t my point.

    None of those horrific actions on the part of Arabs justify Jewish people engaging in unethical actions now.

    Two wrongs don’t make a right.
    Like the book of Amos says, “Let justice roll down like a river…”
    and Matthew, “love your enemies…”

    Have you listened to Palestinians’ side of the current issues?

    If not, I suggest a visit to Musalaha’s website and a reading of both Jewish and Palestinian stories:
    https://www.musalaha.org/home/

  • Larry TheKeyboardist Blake

    How so? Because you don’t recognize – or perhaps refuse to recognize – the violence Israel has perpetrated against other countries?

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    Thank you for a thoughtful response. I do think the reports of Israeli misdeeds are exaggerated by some Palestinian Christians, and believe that if the Palestinian leadership had accepted any of the recent peace offers, it would be a far happier world. That said, no group are perfect, and Israeli as well as Palestinians need Jesus. My own views of Israel’s continuing role in salvation history can be found at http://www.truedeclination.com/semper-reformanda-journal/israel-in-the-plan-of-god – I would appreciate any feedback you had on them. Again, thanks for a considered reply!

  • Matthew

    I basically agree JD. Everytime — and I mean EVERYTIME — this topic comes up it leads to major league polarization, arguing, and fighting on both sides. It´s like we are all treating each other the very same way the Israelis and the Palestinians treat each other most of the time.

    It´s absolute madness really.

  • Bones

    Are you saying my Palestinian Christian friend is exaggerating when he says he was forced out of his home at gunpoint, was bulldozed than given to Jewish settlers?

  • Bones

    I wouldn’t worry.

    One of these shrills pops up every thread on Israel.

  • Realist1234

    I had a quick read on your link. I would just say if Israel is ultimately ‘saved’, it will only be because they as individuals finally recognise and accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, which they should have done 2000 years ago. As Jesus said their being Jewish by birth is irrelevant to their standing before God. Its a shame the Roman Catholic Church has apparently declared that there is no need to evangelise Jews because they already have salvation. The apostle Paul would be turning in his grave.

  • Bones

    “And I learned about the anti-Jewish massacres and that many Arabs supported the Nazis back in the 1930-40’s.”

    And did you read about the Stern Gang (Lehi) seeking an alliance with Mussolini and Hitler to drive out the Brits.

  • Bones

    Well if they’re Muslims, he’s already posted they believe in a Moon god…..

    So i doubt he’s interested in dialogue.

  • Andrew

    That violence is usually to defend themselves from other countries that are attacking them

  • Andrew

    Nobody is completely innocent in this conflict, but to say that the two sides are equal in wrongs or that Israel is the greater evil is simply false. If the Palestinians were to lay down their weapons there would be no more fighting. If Israel were to lay down their weapons there would be no more Israel.
    P.S. If your worried about Christian persecution then why don’t you support Israel more? They are the only country in the Middle East ( besides the fledgling nation of Kurdistan, which I pray will win recognition from the national community) where Christian are not treated as second class citizens. Christianity in Israel is flourishing. The Palestinian Christians are persecuted for their faith by Palestinian Muslims. The only reason they are killed by Israel is because Israel is trying to stop those same Muslims from launching rockets at Israel, and the Christians become unintended collateral.

  • Yonah

    Anti-Semite.

  • Yes, I know more than I want to know about the Jewish terrorist gangs, especially Lehi.

  • So, if I’m hearing you right, your hypothesis is that, if the Palestinians were to stop all hostilities, that Israel would dismantle their illegal settlements and leave the Palestinians to live and flourish in their territory. This is what you believe.

  • If three peace plans written by my allies gave me everything I wanted, I’d accept them all, too.

  • Bones, Bones, Bones. Israel was just defending themselves. With, you know, bulldozers.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Seriously, explain how the statements Larry has made here make him a liar and an Anti-Semite. Perhaps if you have some personal history with him from some other discussions, that could explain it, but criticizing and condemning the violence in which Israel participates is not equivalent to being Anti-Semitic.

  • Thanks for the url. I’ll check it out and respond later.

    I don’t expect perfection from Israelis, especially not since they live in a savage cauldron with murderous jihadists all around them, HAMAS, Hezbollah, Islamic State, Islamic Jihad, and knife/vehicle attacks almost daily, etc. An innocent 70 year old Jewish lady is standing at a bus stop and is attacked and knifed!

    Also, the majority of Palestinians do support terrorists attacks against Jewish civilians:-( When I lived there a nice Muslim Palestinian family helped me when I missed my bus in Nablus, Palestine by inviting me into their home to stay overnight, etc., yet they and the Christian Baptist Palestinians of a church both supported Palestinian terrorists:-( I was so shocked.

    There was a terrorist attack on an apartment building 1 and 1/2 miles from our kibbutz, where Muslim soldiers ran in and shot Jewish civilians in their homes:-(

    And since then, events have only gotten worse.
    Plus, most Palestinian Muslims believe Muslims who reject Islam ought to be punished, etc.

    So I realize that some of the actions of the Israelis are defensive.

    On the other hand many of them aren’t! They are a Jewish form of segregation/apartheid, are unjust and immoral.

    The Israelis government, and Jewish civilians need to stop focusing on themselves as better than Arabs. They need to stop confiscating land, water, etc. They need to create a true democracy, not defined by ethnic/cultural background

    In too many ways this whole scenario is a repeat of how Whites treated Blacks in the U.S. after the Civil War to the 1970’s. For instance, have you heard of Sun-Down towns like Hawthorne, California, and many in places such as Illinois, etc.? In Hawthorne in the 1930’s there was a sign which said, “N- don’t let the sun set on you in Hawthorne.”:-(

    Thanks for the dialog. (That’s what needs to happen–sharing by Israelis and Palestinians.)

  • I guess not since he hasn’t answered either of my comments.

    As for Islam, I don’t think they believe in “a Moon god.”

    However, I do think Islam is destructive. One look at current events, especially in Israel and Palestine and the latest survey of Muslims there show that.

  • Herm

    144,000, equal number from all 12 tribes of Israel, seal; they’re in the book.

  • Yonah

    It is anti-Semitic.

  • Jeff Preuss

    “It is anti-Semitic.”
    Yet, you’re unable to say how. Your argument is irrational and unsupported, save by your repeated assertions as such, expecting such a succinct statement to be the proof you need.

    If you want to contribute to the discussion…contribute to the discussion. Otherwise, it’s clear you’re just acting like a troll, and it invalidates any point you might make.

  • Yonah

    You are stamped: Anti-Semite.

  • Well, this site is a total shut down.:-(

    The article claims,
    “God chose to have the nation of Israel born in slavery in Egypt.”

    NO. God has always opposed evil including slavery.

    The site claims that “WE BELIEVE God’s sovereignty and providence is over all things, and there is nothing that exists outside of his sovereign will as he declares and ordains all things from the beginning.”

    How evil!

    God NEVER ordains evil, ever.

    The site also promotes John Piper! The leader who claimed that the tornadoes in the Midwest who killed 80 people were from God, his “fierce fingers”! And that the winds belong to Jesus.

    And that God foreordained billions of us humans to eternal damnation, and that God has a “secret” will which wills all evil…

    No way.

  • Jeff Preuss

    “You are stamped: Anti-Semite.”

    Wow. By this you just admit you’re being patently ridiculous. Bye, Felicia. You are not worth the time.

  • JD

    So neither side is innocent, but you follow that up by putting all the blame on Palestinians? Christians in Israel are not treated as well as you seem to believe. And I’ve seen much support from Palestinian Christians for their Palestinian brothers and sisters.

    Both sides are engaging in evil violence. As Christians, we shouldn’t be picking sides, but instead we should be trying to bring both sides together. Whichever side is “more right” or “more wrong” is irrelevant. Both sides believe their violence it completely justified, so from their perspectives, both sides believe they are right. That’s the problem with the cycle of violence. Both sides always believe their cause is just, so the violence just continues.

  • JD

    How is it anti-semitic?

  • JD

    But you’ve been stamped! Thank goodness he didn’t tattoo you. That would be permanent then.

  • Realist1234

    I wont get into a discussion with you on the literalism or otherwise of Revelation, but suffice to say there is nothing in the text that indicates that these are unconverted Jews. The fact that ‘the Lamb’ (Jesus) is mentioned time and time again before and after those verses would indicate otherwise.

  • You wrote, “If the Palestinians were to lay down their weapons there would be no more fighting.”
    And
    there would be no more Palestine.
    When the Israeli government now even destroys the orchard of a nonviolent Palestinian family and tries to take away their land which they have owned for at least 100 years,
    what can one expect
    of the unjust Israeli government!?

    As for religious freedom, I agree Muslims are opposed to it, will punish, even kill Muslims who reject Islam.

    But Jewish leaders in Israel aren’t liberal either. They even oppose Jewish groups that they think aren’t orthodox.

    Also, didn’t you read about the town in Israel where Jewish leaders burned Christian Bibles sent to them?!

    Have you visited Israel/Palestine or lived there?

  • How does the Israeli government bulldozing a Christian Palestinian family’s orchard defend Israel?!!!!!!!!

    How does the Israeli government’s refusal to grant building permits and educational money to a Christian school defend Israel?

    And, by the way, the father and brother of the founder of that school were kidnapped by the Israelis even though the father told his kids they ought to love the Jewish people!

    Read the tragic story in Blood Brothers by Eli Chacour.
    http://www.amazon.com/Blood-Brothers-Dramatic-Palestinian-Christian/dp/0801015731/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1455814867&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=eli+chacour

  • Jeff Preuss

    Oy, and it’s my thing with needles!

  • JD

    Oh, I’m a big fan of needles. I’ll admit it…I’m a tattoo junkie. Just not the kind that says “anti-semite”.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Also, he could tattoo me with that moniker, but it still wouldn’t make it true…

  • JD

    True. This is the problem with this issue. When any position that doesn’t view Israel as blameless is met with accusations of antisemitism and an endorsement of Palestinian violence, then there’s no way to have a constructive discussion.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Honestly, it is similar to the ‘God and Country’ narrative so prevalent in the U.S. One cannot seem to divest one from the other in conversations, and ‘anti-Christian’ or ‘anti-American’ accusations are tossed out for simply asking questions or criticizing our American bloodlust.

  • Herm

    Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

    Revelation 14:1 (NIV2011)

  • Herm

    The frontal lobes are involved in motor function, problem solving, spontaneity, memory, language, initiation, judgement, impulse control, and social and sexual behavior.

    http://www.neuroskills.com/brain-injury/frontal-lobes.php

    On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

    “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

    He answered, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

    “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

    Luke 10:25-28 (NIV2011)

  • Ron McPherson

    Poor Jeff has been unfairly stamped so many times now that he could start a collection HeeHee.

  • janbn

    I am really tired of this “neither side is innocent” tripe. Did the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza ask to be occupied in 1967? Did the Palestinians who were so cruelly ethnically cleansed in 1948 ask to be dispossessed from their homes and lands? Did the Zionist project ever envision a land where both peoples would iive together or was their vision for a majority Jewish state with Jews taking over the land? I think that the latter was their vision.

    Leaving aside 1948, it must be remembered that the occupatiion that began in 1967 was one of brutality. Over the years the Israelis have demolished well over 47,000 Palestinian homes and other structures including schools. That number does not include the many thousands of homes destroyed in Gaza by Israeli bombs and missiles. Over the years Israel has destroyed hundreds of thousands of Palestinian olive trees which are often the main source of imcome for many families. Over the years Isael has confiscated many dunams of land while building their settlements, all of which are illegal under international law. Today those settlements and their infrastructure which includes the settlement roads, take up some 40% of the West Bank. Those settlements were designed from the beginning to bring hundreds of thousands of Jews to the West Bank leaving only a few isolated enclaves for the Palestinians. Over the years Israel has imprisoned and often tortured thousands of Palestinians while killing Palestinians with impunity. Over the years the IDF has rampaged through the villages breaking into homes, beating and arresting family members.

    Israel has never wanted any resistance to their brutal and draconian occupation. In 1983 Mubarak Awad, a Jerusalem born Palestinian-American came to the West Bank where he founded the Palestine Centre for the Teaching of Non-Violence. Now one might think that the Israelis would have welcomed non-violence but they would have been wrong. In spite of protests from the Reagan State Department, Awad was deported back to America. That was four years before Hamas came into existence.

    Even today non-violent prorests in the villages are met with violence from the IDF who meet the demonstrators who walk unarmed to protest the theft of their village lands from nearby illegal settlements. As soon as the village people begin to walk with their only weapons being Palestinian flags, the IDF begins to hurl tear gas and rubber bullets at them People have been hurt and even killed by those cannisters.

    In spite of “negotiations” during which Israel has continued to build its illegal settlements, it is more than obvious that Israel wants land more than peace and intends to keep the land in perpetuity. If a few Israeli citizens get killed because of the brutal occupatioln, that seems to be a price that Israel is prepared to make.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Let’s see:
    ‘Anti-Semite’
    ‘Bigot’
    ‘Heretic’
    ‘Pedophile’
    ‘Wolf leading others to slaughter’
    ‘False Christian’
    ‘Apostate’
    ‘Murderer’
    ‘Devil’
    etc.

  • Larry TheKeyboardist Blake

    Ah, yes, it was only a matter before I’d get labeled an anti-Semite for not buying into some apologist’s attempts to rationalize the Israeli government’s abominable actions.

  • Palestinians are also Semitic.

  • JD

    Understandable. I think one could make the argument that CPT should be much more vocal against Palestinian violence, or violence of the oppressed towards the oppressors regardless. I think that’s a fair criticism.

    What’s not a fair criticism is to say, as kirby has, that the CPT glorifies and justifies Palestinian violence. Or that “2,000 years of Christian persecution of Jews isn’t enough” for CPT. I think they are a group that clearly calls for nonviolence, at least in general terms. I think you have a point that they should be more vocal about specific cases.

    That said, I will be going over there in September to help the cause of nonviolence, and will not hide my disdain for Israeli or Palestinian violence. I love their mission and while they may have become more political over the past few years (which I’m not a fan of), their mission is a Christ-like one that I will gladly help in.

  • janbn

    Jeff, Israel and many of its supporters long ago decided that in order to stop any criticism of Israel or condemnation of the brutal occupation, the critics must be labeled “anti-Semites,” “Jew haters,” or in the case of Jews who condemn what Israel does, “self-haters.” After all, only someone who hates Jews would ever criticize Israel. To them, whatever Israel does must be beyond reproach.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Oh, don’t I know it. It’s like when one is labelled a heretic for just questioning a theological stance, doctrinal or not. Shouting down question askers as enemies is easier than explaining oneself.

  • Ron McPherson

    And the absolute, without a shadow of a doubt, can’t be anything worse than this, the label of all labels to shut down all discussion …LIBERAL. Oh my. I can’t believe I actually said it. The L word. Sorry Jeff but it is my moral duty to confront and condemn you for this, only because I love you of course ; )

  • I completely agree with you on this.

    Glad to hear you are going. Hope you can be a reconciler as well as a prophet:-)

    Both sides were wonderful to us when we volunteers lived there.

    So tragic they won’t accept and value each other.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Except, unlike the others, ‘liberal’ could actually apply to me somewhat…

  • Ron McPherson

    Eeeek. No. Say it ain’t so Jeff

  • robert

    Andrew you are ignorant or a damn liar. STFU.

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    Hi, you wrote; “Did the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza ask to be occupied in 1967? Did the Palestinians who were so cruelly ethnically cleansed in 1948 ask to be dispossessed from their homes and lands?” The responsibility for those things most certainly belongs with the Palestinians. They didnt get what they wanted, which was to annihilate the Jewish community, but as the community which on both occasions rejected peace and chose war, the responsibility rests with them. Had they accepted the Jewish community in their midst, had they accepted the UN Partition Plan, the 48 war would not have happened, no “nakba”. You cannot blame the Jewish community, which accepted every peace plan, for the consequences of a war they tried to avoid. The Palestinians started it, and thankfully they lost. If you start a war, dont blame those who tried to avoid it when you lose. Stop playing the victim and have the integrity to admit you were wrong. Likewise 67. Re the occupation, if it were so bad, why havent the Palestinians accepted any of the peace plans the Israelis have again agreed to? these gave them something like 95% of the West Bank, with land swaps for the rest. Theirs for the taking, they rejected them.

  • Bones

    It says a lot that they would accuse fellow Christians of lying and making light of their suffering all because they are Arab.

  • Realist1234

    Anyone can quote Scripture without understanding, as you do. I have yet to meet anyone, apart from Jesus, who perfectly fulfils those two overarching commandments, including the ‘expert in the Law’ who asked the question. Which is precisely why we need Jesus’ righteousness and not our own. Basic Christianity.

  • Bones

    So Jesus was telling him to do something impossible……

    That is quite absurd and a justification to not follow Jesus.

    How bizarre that you disregard Jesus on this…..

  • Bones

    You don’t think Christians don’t enjoy blowing up people……

    I’d be pretty pissed too if I was Palestinian.

  • are you familiar with the works of primo levy? if not I would start with ‘if not now when?’ he is a Jew who was rounded up in Italy and sent to Auschwitz. the Nazis worked him in the factories of Birkenau as a chemist.

  • I don’t think most humans “enjoy blowing up people”!
    Only sadists and maybe sociopaths do.

    However, when humans are threatened, treated unjustly, etc.,
    they will often justify persecuting, harming, and slaughtering the “others.”

    When I lived and worked in Palestine/Israel for a short time,
    caring, kind, dutiful Palestinian Muslims and Christian Baptist Palestinians, Jewish atheists and Jewish orthodox Jews–ALL
    of them supported the harming and killing of each other:-(

    As for Christians, they kill all the time. Even within my life time Christians have supported the slaughter of “others’ in wars and conflicts many times.
    And it was an American Christian leader who said that the atom bomb was “God’s gift” to America. Morally sick:-(

    As for Palestinian Muslims, many of them (the majority according to the latest polls) who think that a Palestinian who kills a Jewish infant or stabs a 70 year old Jewish woman at a bus stop is a “martyr,” a Palestinian hero–
    that sort of thinking is morally sick, too.

  • jekylldoc

    I read “The Periodic Table” and some short essays. Amazing writing, and harrowing background. Thanks for the recommendation – I will check it out.

  • I am surprised and shocked at yonah’s reactivity to you. I’m curious to know why he is triggered enough to call you and others racist anti-Semite. what is this barrier to more nuanced communication? on blogs he and I follow I have noticed that, over the years, yonah is being someone who can contribute balanced, brilliant, empathic responses, rather than reactivity. I have enjoyed his repartee and sense of humor and look forward to reading his posts whenever I see his name. dunno what it’s like to be Jewish, but I do know what it’s like to be hidebound and fundamentalist about tribes and cults. I’ve observed, while trying myself to come out denial about my own character flaws, that what fundamentalists and peeps with obsession and addiction issues have in common is to end an argument with an insult. I think yonah is in a lot of pain about this and is getting nowhere with it if he’s coming here to curse rather than to bless! *=]:-{

  • Kevin Osborne
  • thanks buddy! that was the perfect antidote to the heavy feeling I had over this issue! Yonah is a hero to me but almost every hero has feet of clay. the humans I know get to have corns, bunions and stinky feet!

  • Herm

    I really don’t believe, by your fruit, that you have met Jesus and remain apart from Him. He is not in you and you are not in Him. Please, reread closely the following as to the entire law of God summed up for all to understand simply as children, as well as, what resources we all have available to us to fulfill that law in the Spirit of God … then read my childish conclusion:

    Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    Matthew 22:37-40 (NIV2011)

    So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

    Matthew 7:12 (NIV2011)

    The Jewish expert in the law was an expert of the Levitical law according to the Kohens who resided within both Samaritan and Jewish communities. He knew the sum of the resources God has made available to us all (Jewish (Christian) or not, male or not, straight or not, black or not)to be qualified to inherit eternal life. He could not sum up the law that God lives within or he could have shown respect to the Samaritan beyond replying, “the one who showed mercy”.

    There are many here who truly do love the Lord their God with all they have command over and their merciful neighbor as themselves. There are many here who know the love of their enemy. By his fruit the spirit of Benjamin L. Corey clearly loves within the law God lives by and he is obviously growing and learning to love more each day. By his fruit he despises the familial traditions of mankind and carries his cross to learn from the only Teacher in God for him. Ben is not the example you should pattern yourself after for he is simply a little child born of God who sincerely asks and seeks directly from God for his protection, providing, nurture and for his teaching. You can learn by his abundant fruit shared within the sum of the law that the Spirit of truth lives and is available for all, from all nations, to be born into God and God in them. You then can ask and seek to be who you are, different than Ben, living eternally within the law as Ben shows to you can be done.

    You have met many, I am sure, who fulfill all the law and commands of Jesus as His disciples. You do not recognize them because your standard of fulfilling the law and commands of God come only from the familial traditions of your church and/or carnal birth family. The standards set by Jesus saves us from those oppressive traditions no one can live up to or within.

    “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

    Matthew 11:28-30 (NIV2011)

    You must come to Jesus as a little child. Children have emotions that might childishly turn over the tables of the money changers in anger, even as God’s child. God’s child will always still love, with empathy, compassion and forgiveness, the money changers. God’s children are not in any way robots or puppets, for all are different than any other child of God, and only are slaves to love for that is the law even our Father lives within.

    The Yoke I work from within is the Holy Spirit connecting my heart and mind to be within the heart and mind of Jesus as we are all, children of God, connected within the heart and mind of our Father in heaven.

    You sacrifice that yoke by being so bound by the yoke of your traditions of carnal birth. Look around you and you will see that you have been blind to the children of God living perfectly well with the law and commands of Jesus who have an eternity to improve never quite reaching perfection. Where’s the adventure of life to be savored if perfection could be achieved? Perhaps, your confusion is a residual from the perfection you thought your carnal parents were demanding of you. I don’t know but I do know the demands my Father in heaven and my Lord and Brother Jesus demand of me and it is to live with in everything do to others as you would have others do to you, all others without exception. That I can do and so can many right here. Love you!

  • Jock Doubleday

    “Biblical ethics” is a contradiction in terms. It’s a book of genocide, rape, and slavery.

  • This is not a historically honest assessment.

    Take the Allon Plan, for instance. -While negotiations with Palestine were going on-, Israel was talking to Jordan about taking sovereignty over some of the exact same areas, not to mention Palestinians would be completely removed from the areas Israel was claiming, which was quite a bit because they needed it to “defend themselves.” It was written by the Israeli Prime Minister.

    According to you, the Palestinians “reject peace” because they didn’t accept a plan where they’d be kicked out of areas they were already in AND end up in what would be primarily Jordanian lands.

    The situation is not as simple as “Israel agreed to peace plans, Palestine didn’t. Therefore, it’s Palestine’s fault.”

  • Herm

    … not the Good News parts!!!

  • Kevin Osborne

    I’m no different, but wash occasionally.

  • Realist1234

    Your arrogance is astounding. You will be ignored in future.

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    Thats why you negotiate. the Palestinians have consistently refused to, even refusing to talk with the Israelis for the past year and more – if the situation were so terrible, they would be suing for peace. They wont even talk to the Israelis. Clinton complained that they presented no counter proposals at his talks, they just left and started an intifada. The most recent Israeli offers were profoundly generous, as confirmed by Abbas, and rejected because the Palestinians dont want their own state, they want Israel destroyed. They even deny that the Temple Mount is the site of the original Jewish temples.

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    Well, they did dismantle their settlements in Sinai when they made peace with Egypt, and they also dismantled their settlements in Gaza when they left, in the hope of peace, and offered to dismantle more settlements in the peace plans offered in 2009. Given they have already twice dismantled settlements for the hope of peace, why assume they wouldnt now, when they again offer to?

  • Um, no, Abbas rejected that plan because Israel hadn’t drawn up a map of where they would divide the annexed territories, Israel moved the borders from the 1967 offer, and Olmert was about to lose his office due to a corruption investigation (which is exactly what happened).

    At no point did any Palestinian official state that the offer was rejected because of their desire to destroy Israel.

  • Because they continue to set up illegal settlements in the West Bank?

  • Herm

    Perhaps I am childishly arrogant but I went as far as I could to explain why, much more so than this completely arrogant remark from you to Bones, “Its a shame you use Einstein’s face, considering he was a deist.

    You will not be ignored.

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    They just couldnt say the words “Jewish State”, like the 47 UN Partition Plan did, they just refused to speak to Israel or present a counter offer, they just launched a new wave of terror attacks against Israel.

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    So Israel should make concrete concessions while the Palestinians make none, and encourage their people to murder them??

  • Bones

    Well you ignore Jesus’s plain words so it’s no surprise.

    Must admit in 30 years of studying the Bible its the first time I’ve heard someone say you don’t need to love God or your neighbour.

    You must be blind.

  • You are welcome to your interpretation of those events. Palestine did not say that was the reason. That’s your hypothesis and you are welcome to it. However, it does seem incredibly one-sided and hagiographical. You have to omit a rather large amount of shortcomings on Israel’s side to get it to work.

    And that’s really my chief complaint with you and others of your ilk. You don’t have to convince me that terrible things have been done by the Palestinians or that Arafat walked away from the table too soon.

    But none of that changes the fact that Israel has also been incredibly violent, child and Christian killers, selfish and dominionist on their side. But instead of adopting a very equitable position of seeing the sins on both sides and dealing with it from that standpoint, you instead posit a virtuous, meek Israel who can do no wrong who is just trying to be safe from those nasty, evil Palestinians who have no actual grievances but are just hateful, violent aggressors.

    That story is just not real.

  • Ok, I’m confused at what your point is. You said we have every reason to believe Israel would dismantle their settlements and leave Palestine alone if they quit fighting. I pointed out that Israel actually continues to annex land in the West Bank and build settlements that the international community condemns as illegal, so we have no reason to believe they would stop doing that. It’s not like they’re defending their own borders – they are actively expanding their borders making incursions that every country in the world recognizes is illegal.

    And then, instead of seeing this pattern of behavior as indicative of Israel’s desires, you basically say, “Yeah, so? They SHOULD do that.”

    So, which is it? Does Israel continue to make illegal annexations and thus display a certain lack of good intentions, or does Palestine have no reason to distrust them? You can’t have it both ways, and I personally find your justification of this behavior disgusting, but obviously you don’t. At the very least, I’d expect you to see the inconsistency. You can’t say with a straight face, “We’d absolutely leave the Palestinians alone if they’d quit fighting. Trust us,” while you are forcibly taking their land and evicting them, killing as you go.

    That’s like saying the early American settlers would have left the Native Americans alone if they’d have just quit fighting.

  • Bones

    And in ww2 the saying was the only good Jap/german is a dead one.

    There were many caring kind Christians actively involved in violent resistance to Nazis and Japanese occupation in Ww2.

    And they celebrated those who died fighting them as martyrs.

    Were they bad and would we have been any different.

    If I was a Christian Palestinian I’d be pretty pissed too.

    And with peace and negotiations as well as the international community doing nothing, guess who and what they will turn to.

    Someone who will do something about it. Hence why the popularity of Hamas is growing in the West Bank.

    Which of course will feed Netanyahu.

    Even Hezbollah has support from Lebanese Christians because they actively oppose Israel.

    Btw my Palestinian Christian friends are a lot angrier at Israel than hamas but really they just want to be left in peace.

  • Realist1234

    That’s not what I said, but I’m not surprised at your misunderstanding.

  • Well since you are justifying the killing of innocent civilians, our discussion is at an end.

    Slaughtering the innocent whether now or in WWll or the Civil War or the 30 Years War…is always wrong, is evil.

  • Realist1234

    You understand nothing.

  • Bones

    Well your way of doing nothing is working well…..You expect people living under opression to just roll over.

    I’m looking at it from the perspective of people who actually live there.

    Its all fine to fly in and tell everyone they should be lovey duvvy.

    Reality doesn’t work like that.

    If you were a Palestinian you’d be pissed too.

    I’m not saying it’s right but if non-violence and political negotiations won’t work guess what people will turn to.

  • Huh?
    I’ve opposed inequality and injustice in Palestine/Israel since the early 1970’s when I lived there.

    I absolutely don’t think Palestinians ought to “just roll over.” They need to mount a massive movement of nonviolent resistance. Fatah’s and HAMAS’ praising of murderers is not only evil, but leads many people to have severe doubts about Palestinians.

    We have supported Palestinians for many, many years, in fact have sent aid to help two impoverished Palestinian families for a number of years.

    Furthermore, the U.N. should recognize Palestine immediately as an independent country, and that the U.N. should do more to oppose Israel’s land confiscations and illegal settlements in Palestine.

    As for nonviolence, that isn’t a matter of “what works” but what is right and good and true. Martin Luther King’s words are so true: “Peace is not merely a distant goal that we seek, but a means by which we arrive at that goal.”

    If Palestinians and Israelis had lived the truth and sought justice through nonviolence, many thousands of innocent individuals would still be alive.

    The last one hundred years of killing there is horrific. I know each side’s story well.

    And, if Israelis had supported the Gandhian Palestinian Awad and others rather than banishing him from his birthplace, maybe more Palestinians would have chosen the way of Gandhi instead of the way of killing the innocent.

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    Hi, I am glad you see the evil that the Palestinians have done. Actually, when discussing with people who say Israel right or wrong, I also bring up my criticisms of it. Israel is not perfect! Christians claim to be born again, forgiven and filled with God’s Holy Spirit, yet we, given all this, still sin – how on earth could Israel, without these blessings, be perfect?
    At the same time, I do not hold with the assumed wisdom of the moderator- sagely declaring both sides to be equally bad smacks of intellectual laziness and moral equivalence.
    i have seen (on the TV) tens of thousands of Palestinians dancing and handing out sweets because a bomb went off in an Israeli primary school. I have also seen the Israelis exercising extreme care not to harm Palestinian civilians. i do not consider the two societies to be morally equal. As I wrote elsewhere on this thread, the post 48 green line was never accepted by the Palestinians or the Arab League as a legitimate boarder. They are disputed territories because the Palestinians have refused to negotiate over them. That Israel is prepared to offer about 95% of them to the Palestinians for their state shows that the Israeli settlements are not expanding all over the place. If they want their own state, all they need do is negotiate it. Accept the Jewish State, renounce the “right of return” and negotiate a happy, thriving state next door to Israel. Depressingly, it really is that simple.

  • The Israeli assault on Gaza city killed almost 450 children and over 1000 civilians.

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    “You said we have every reason to believe Israel would dismantle their settlements and leave Palestine alone if they quit fighting”
    Dismantle some settlements, yes. As noted, they already have twice! But when the Palestinians would not negotiate, they unilaterally left Gaza, hoping the absence of friction points would mean there was no reason for violence. In return, they got thousands of missiles on their own territory. That is why they will not evacuate some settlements again unilaterally. Other settlements such as the Kfar Ezion block and those around Modiin should remain. When the Palestinians genuinely want peace, they will find a willing partner in Israel.

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    Two cut and pastes;
    The Chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Martin Dempsey, announced on November 6, 2014, that Israel had gone to “extraordinary lengths to limit collateral damage and prevent civilian casualties in the Gaza conflict.” A team of senior U.S. officers was sent to learn from Israel’s tactics.”
    Colonel Richard Kemp, commander of British forces in Afghanistan “I believe that on the basis of everything that I’ve seen, that everything the IDF does to protect civilians and to stop the death of innocent civilians is a great deal more than any other army, and it’s more than the British and the American armies.”

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    Worth reading the whole article. http://www.weeklystandard.com/attorneys-at-war/article/964911
    “At this point, it was abundantly clear that IDF commanders had gone beyond any mandates that international law requires to avoid civilian casualties. No matter. Putting their own troops at even greater risk, IDF commanders decided to wait yet another day to allow more time for civilians to get out.”

  • Well, those are great opinions, but that doesn’t change the fact that Israel killed 450 children and 1000+ civilians in one day.

  • Herm

    Colin, you seem to have no idea that there is an Israeli faction that believes that all the holy land is Jewish land. That is the entire problem between Palestinians and Israelis. The Jewish occupation of deeded Palestinian land is founded purely on what God said is theirs. Any suggestion otherwise by Israeli officials is a ruse and certainly not for defensive purposes … absolutely offensive.

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    hi, you cant say Israel is morally bad because it did this, then dismiss knowledgeable commentators who say Israel actually fought to defend itself in a profoundly moral way. Those opinions directly address what you were saying – the top American soldier and one of the top British soldiers agree that Israel was not reckless or wanton in how it defended itself. This should give you pause to reconsider.
    That it does not is concerning.
    I would also add that there is huge disagreement re how many of those casualties were indeed either civilian or minors.
    Added to both of those points, Israel was not fighting an enemy who was also fighting in a moral way – they were fighting Hamas who specifically aimed at their civilian population centers, and had previously also deliberately targeted civilians in numerous terror attacks.

  • Bones

    Yeah sure

    UN commission finds evidence of war crimes by Israel, Hamas during 2014 Gaza war
    Commission chair urges international community to act on conclusions of the report – primarily by supporting an investigation by the International Criminal Court in The Hague in to the status of the occupied Palestinian territories.

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.662389?v=9469C00CFE1EB5A1D15A9E191F3BC005

    Taking comments from US commanders who are still bombing hospitals proves nothing.

    But yeah Israel doesn’t target civilians…..

    Not guilty. The Israeli captain who emptied his rifle into a Palestinian schoolgirl
    · Officer ignored warnings that teenager was terrified
    · Defence says ‘confirming the kill’ standard practice

    An Israeli army officer who fired the entire magazine of his automatic rifle into a 13-year-old Palestinian girl and then said he would have done the same even if she had been three years old was acquitted on all charges by a military court yesterday.

    The soldier, who has only been identified as “Captain R”, was charged with relatively minor offences for the killing of Iman al-Hams who was shot 17 times as she ventured near an Israeli army post near Rafah refugee camp in Gaza a year ago.

    The manner of Iman’s killing, and the revelation of a tape recording in which the captain is warned that she was just a child who was “scared to death”, made the shooting one of the most controversial since the Palestinian intifada erupted five years ago even though hundreds of other children have also died.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2

    How barbaric is it when your soldiers say they will empty their rifle into 3 year olds.

    And then claiming they fight morally.

  • Yes, both commentators are Israel’s allies and probably not completely objective in their commentary on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

    I’m glad you feel it’s ok to kill children if someone kills yours, first, because two weeks prior to Israel’s December 2001 attacks on Gaza City (they do this a lot – the other figures were from 13 years later), a mine set by Israeli special forces killed 20 Palestinians on their way to school, most of whom were children. The Palestinians retaliated and also killed civilians, and then were steamrolled for the next three days. So, by your lights, the Palestinian attack was fine.

    Now, by my lights, the violence exhibited by both sides was terrible and worthy of condemnation, both by Christians and Muslims. Perhaps the violence is more -understandable- from one side than the other, but that doesn’t make it right.

    It’s this double standard that cripples your position. When Palestinians kill children, they’re evil terrorists stooping to historically low morality levels. When Israel kills -way more- children, well, they were just defending themselves, and sometimes these unfortunate things happen in war.

    The cognitive dissonance must be staggering.

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    hi again,
    I note this discussion has moved from the big picture to individual incidents. War is terrible, terrible things happen in it. That does not mean both sides in any war are equally to blame. About 3,000 French civilians died from Allied bombing on D-Day, that does not make America and England the moral equivalent of Nazi Germany. Look at which side accepted all proposed cease-fires in the latest Gaza conflict, sent through food and medical aid even while the fighting was raging etc. Look at which side accepted every cease fire and peace plan going back to 1929 if you want to.
    Of interest is that this discussion is occurring re an article asking why some Christians support the State of Israel. The problem here is that the Old Testament is full of promises by God that the people of Israel will be scattered to the ends of the earth, and that God will rescue them and re-establish them in the land of Israel. The real problem is that the Jewish people were scattered to the ends of the earth, and within living memory have come back to their original homeland, revived their original language and are doing rather well. Just like the Bible said. Clearly, history has not stopped, the Jewish people still need their messiah, but incredible things are happening.
    Many Christians, especially ones who take the Bible the most seriously, see these things and rejoice. They look forward to the day when all Israel will be saved, and when Jesus will return. Other Christians, who do not want the Bible to be simple, straight forward and easily understandable, are not so happy.
    But to just say, “hey, just because the Jewish people were scattered across the whole world, retained their identity, and have come back to their own land just like the Bible prophesied, DOESN’T MEAN ANYTHING. Its just a wild coincidence” is a hard one to sell.
    But if you are really determined, the best argument is “look, Israel is just so wicked! Therefore it cannot be of God.” This argument makes you want Israel to be evil. Forget the facts, the big picture, any incident of wrongdoing by Israel must be stored up and treasured. And, like the rest of us, Israel are not perfect, and are going to make mistakes. And when you find one, zap, Israel are not of God. Forget the standards you apply to yourself, “Im not perfect, just forgiven”, “God isnt finished with me yet” etc – one error and regardless of how much they have tried for peace, Israel is condemned. And yes, such a theological attitude is profoundly anti-Semitic. It holds the Jewish State to an impossible standard no other nation on Earth is held to, then damns it when it does not reach it.

  • Bones

    You make it seem as if it is one mistake.

    It’s actually the Likud charter to expand settlements into the occupied territories.

    Can you tell me which other nations have such a policy of liebensraum?

    What sort of a military says it would shoot 3 year olds if it has to.

  • Bones

    Btw you’re understanding of the Bible is backward.

    Its a stupid reading of the Bible which states that every Jew will go back to Israel.

    Here’s news. Most don’t. Many Jews don’t even support the state of Israel and its expansionist policies.

    Its actually pretty sick using religion to overlook oppression and violence.

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    The Likud has been in power for years, it presided over a settlement freeze, and has basically only approved new growth in existing blocks. About 95% of the West Bank is there for a Palestinian State when the choose to ask for it.
    Trying to ignore your snide and offensive “liebensraum” connotation, the answer is easy – The PA want to settle all of present day Israel, the “right of return” etc. That is why the refuse peace. They dont want peace, they want Israel.

  • Bones

    The PA do not. They have clearly stated they recognise the 1967 borders.

    And Netanyahu has made it clear there will be no State of Palestine.

    You lie again.

    Liebensraum is the correct term.

    They are finding ‘living space’ for Jews in the Occupied Territories.

    Sound familiar oh great moral one?

    And Likud is now in alliance with Settler Movements to create more liebensraum.

  • Bones

    Apparently emptying your rifle into scared unarmed shool children is a way of caring for the civilian population.

    And then justifying it by saying they’d do it to a 3 year old.

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    So, the PA have renounced the “right of return” – glad to hear it.

  • Bones

    No they haven’t.

    We know Israels’s hatred of Arabs.

    Netanyahu was quite open it about it during the election.

    You’re a disgrace.

  • I don’t consider killing over 400 children to be “not perfect” or “making mistakes.” It’s not like this is a little error. And that’s just a drop in the bucket of the people they’ve killed, the homes they’ve destroyed, and incursions that even the United States thinks are illegal. This is not equivalent to when I eat a grape at the store I didn’t pay for.

    We don’t get to vilify Palestine and give Israel a free pass even though the death tally under their name is far greater and their so-called “peace plans” have historically been biased toward their own benefit with one of the world’s superpowers standing behind them to back them up. I think it speaks volumes that you are willing to write off the willful killing of hundreds of children as a “mistake” for the sole reason that Israel is the perpetrator, and they’re “not perfect,” just like you and me.

    There is no prophecy in the Old or New Testaments about the modern nation state of Israel. Israel had their oppression, their Messiah, their Pentecost, their judgment, and the judgment of their oppressors and the handing of that kingdom over to Christians (for better or worse). There is nothing else in the Bible for them to wait for except the new heavens and earth that all the faithful wait for. The modern nation state of Israel is not the Israel of the Bible, does not have continuity with the Israel of the Bible, and does not inherit the promises to the patriarchs. They are, instead, much more like the power structure of Jerusalem that God judged, who murdered the prophets in the streets.

  • Well, according to CAB, that’s just a little slip up showing us that Israel isn’t perfect.

  • Iztherapist

    Thank you for this, but you missed something important: if Israel was mostly Sephardic (non-European, Middle Eastern) Jews rather than Ashkenazi (white European) Jews, this wouldn’t even be an issue: neither America nor the overwhelmingly white evangelical population would care. This is as much, if not more, about ‘they look like us’ than it is about any Biblical reasoning.

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    hi,
    justice is often a weighing of the two sides to see who is in the wrong – the whole blindfolded with scales idea. in discussing the Gaza conflict, you however only mention one side of the conflict. the Palestinians under Hamas only appear as victims. Hamas sent around 9,000 missiles aimed at Israeli civilian population centers, from Ashdod to Beersheva to Tel Aviv. Israel responded to protect its own civilians. it had no territorial ambitions, and accepted every cease-fire all of which were broken by Hamas. Israel even offered cease-fires simply to get food and medicines to the Palestinian population, a cease-fire Hamas also broke. Read http://richard-kemp.com/submission-to-the-united-nations-independent-commission-of-inquiry-on-the-2014-gaza-conflict/
    There is no doubt that of the two sides, Israel was the more moral. As noted, the top military of both Britain and America said it set new standards in the protection of civilians, standards not matched by any other nation. And yes, war is still terrible, and innocents still die, but have the integrity to recognize which side in a conflict deserves the blame.
    your second point concerns numbers. Civilian casualties in Israel, which invests vast amounts building bomb shelters, anti missile defenses etc, against Hamas, which invests vast amounts building tunnels and rockets, places its own leadership under the main hospital and uses its civilians to hide behind. The Allies were not the evil party because more Germans died on d-Day than Allies – they shouldnt have said the the Germans, hey you can kill a few thousand more to make it fair. you cannot condemn a nation trying its best to protect civilians, those of the enemy as well as its own, with Hamas who were doing their utmost to kill Israeli civilians and doing nothing to protect their own.

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    To answer the second, theological part of your reply, read these promises in the Bible about Israel; Jeremiah 31:35-37 This is what the LORD says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar– the LORD Almighty is his name: “Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,” declares the LORD, “will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me.” This is what the LORD says: “Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done,” declares the LORD. Isaiah 11:12 He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth., Ezekiel 11:17-20 “Therefore say: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will gather you from the nations and bring you back from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you back the land of Israel again.’ “They will return to it and remove all its vile images and detestable idols. I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God. 6 O descendants of Abraham his servant, O sons of Jacob, his chosen ones. Psalm 105:6-11 He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. He remembers his covenant forever, the word he commanded, for a thousand generations, the covenant he made with Abraham, the oath he swore to Isaac. He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree, to Israel as an everlasting covenant: “To you I will give the land of Canaan as the portion you will inherit.”

    What about the New Testament? Well, Acts 3:21 He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. Did God promise the prophets he would restore Israel? See above.
    Romans 15:8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs. Did God make promises to the Patriarchs re Israel? See the Psalm above.

    Luke 1:32-33 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.” Luke 1:54-55 He has helped his servant Israel, remembering to be merciful to Abraham and his descendants forever, even as he said to our fathers.”

  • I only mention one side of the conflict because we already agree that when Palestinians kill children, that is atrocious, evil behavior. We don’t need to keep debating that.

    However, my position is that killing children is atrocious, evil behavior no matter who does it or why. Your position is that it’s only evil if Palestine does it, but is perfectly acceptable if Israel does it. How is that justice? If the Allies bombed hospitals and schools to strike against the Germans, yes, that would be wrong. Just because they are “the Allies” doesn’t make atrocity ok.

    Justice in this situation is not about which people group is “right” or “wrong.” No adult moral issues come down to that, least of all in international politics. You take a conflict between two individuals, and you will discover that the overwhelming majority of the time, they both had a part in the disintegration. Possibly one had more than the other, or perhaps one was more drastic or visible than the other, but almost never do you have a 100%/0% right over wrong ratio.

    This is even worse when it comes to international politics. There are tons of variables and complicating factors. There are old wounds and new wounds. Heck, there are people in the South who still wish they were fighting the Civil War, and that’s been over for a while now. Violence, hatred, and grievance lingers in a people, and you can see this in conflicts all around the world, getting so entangled that it becomes almost impossible to reduce these issues down to, “Well, he started it.” The Palestinians didn’t ask for this problem, but they got it, and now they have to deal with it. Do some of them deal with it in evil ways that deserve our reprimand. You betcha. No question. We agree on that.

    My issue with you is that, for all the crimes you can tally up under the “Palestine” side of the list, we could tally -at least- equally (and I would argue moreso) horrendous ones under the “Israel” side of the list. But that’s totally ok with you. It’s ok for Israel to blow children up. They are obviously moral because both Britain and America say so. So, blowing up children must be moral when Israel does it. According to you, Jesus would like that. He would be standing at the borders of Gaza going, “Israel, get on in there and blow up those schools and hospitals. Bulldoze that Palestinian village and shoot the owners in the head. You are on the RIGHT SIDE of this conflict, and it justifies anything you can think of to do to win.”

    You sound the least like Jesus of almost anyone I know.

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    Sorry you feel that way! I can only repeat that all war is terrible, all civilian casualties are horrible and I long for the Prince of Peace. In the mean time, where there is war, look at who started it, and then look at who tries to avoid civilian casualties, and who tries to inflict them. There is a moral difference. The idea that there are just wars that can be justly fought is a common one within Christian thought.
    Your caricature of my views as “Israel, get on in there and blow up those schools and hospitals. Bulldoze that Palestinian village and shoot the owners in the head. You are on the RIGHT SIDE of this conflict, and it justifies anything you can think of to do to win” is utterly untrue and profoundly offensive.

  • Then you do condemn the violence done against Palestine by Israel?

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    Phil, I regret all civilian casualties. I also believe that nations have a responsibility to defend their citizens from attack. They need also to defend them in a moral way, by doing their best to avoid killing civilians. I believe that Israel did this.

  • One4Life

    As a Lutheran, the current state of Israel holds no special place among the nations of the world in a theological sense – and Scripture clearly indicates the Church is now where the people of God are located both those of Jewish decent and all others – there is no difference in God’s eyes. I suppose I would enjoy going to Israel to see the Biblical sites, that’s the only religious significance it holds to me – it would be interesting and powerful to see the places where Jesus walked and taught. The real importance of Israel to me is non-religious and it is of immense importance and it is why I identify with the people of Israel. It is the only liberal western democracy in the region. If I lived in the Middle East I sure as hell wouldn’t want to live anywhere but Israel for their culture, acceptance, and equality.

  • One4Life

    Yes, Herm is always proclaiming people non-Christian. He really gets a kick out of it I think.

  • Bones

    Because fundamentalists are really theocratic relativists.

    If God commands evil, it’s good……

  • Bones

    Pot. Kettle. Black.

  • Realist1234

    Indeed.

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    Hi, I trust we both can affirm the words of Paul; “I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,” (Acts 24:14). Paul also says; “For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs” (Romans 15:8). Peter likewise says; “He [Jesus] must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets (Acts 3:21).

    Concerning Jesus, we read; “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.” (Luke 1:32-33) and “He has helped his servant Israel, remembering to be merciful to Abraham and his descendants forever, even as he said to our fathers” (Luke 1:54-55).

    So, the new Testament affirms everything written in the Law and the Prophets. It confirms that through Jesus (2 Corinthians 1:20), God will restore everything promised through the prophets and confirm the promises made to the Patriarchs. In the context of this topic, the question then is, do any of those promises involve the Jewish people and the nation of Israel? Lets see;

    Jeremiah 31:35-37 This is what the LORD says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar– the LORD Almighty is his name: “Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,” declares the LORD, “will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me.” This is what the LORD says: “Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done,” declares the LORD.

    Isaiah 11:12 He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.,

    Ezekiel 11:17-20 “Therefore say: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will gather you from the nations and bring you back from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you back the land of Israel again.’ “They will return to it and remove all its vile images and detestable idols. I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

    Psalm 105:6-11 O descendants of Abraham his servant, O sons of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. He remembers his covenant forever, the word he commanded, for a thousand generations, the covenant he made with Abraham, the oath he swore to Isaac. He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree, to Israel as an everlasting covenant: “To you I will give the land of Canaan as the portion you will inherit.”

    These and many more like them are promises given through the prophets and to the patriarchs. And Jesus became a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, to confirm the promises made to the Patriarchs, and “God [will] restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.”

    For a longer discussion, and how it relates to the wider church, see http://www.truedeclination.com/semper-reformanda-journal/israel-in-the-plan-of-god

    God bless, Colin

  • One4Life

    In Jesus we are the descendants, we are the people of God. In Jesus we are the recipients of all Gods blessings and promises. Jews, Greeks, men, women – we all become Godls People.

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    So you are saying just because God makes a specific promise in the Old Testament, and Jesus came to confirm those promises, and will return to do everything in those promises, and that in him all God’s promises find their yes and amen, doesn’t mean God will actually fulfill those promises as recorded, as understood by those to whom he gave them? Question, had God wanted to promise the land of Canaan to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, how would have have worded Psalm 105 differently?

    Equally, what do these verses mean? “Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? (Romans 11:11-15) What greater riches will their fullness bring in? Why will their acceptance mean life from the dead?

    “”As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. (Romans 11:28-29) Who is Paul talking about? How can someone be both an enemy of the Gospel, yet also beloved on account of the patriarchs? Would those be the same patriarchs Jesus came, as a servant to the Jews, to confirm the promises to? Is that why it says this will prove that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable?

  • One4Life

    Quoting from the “Lutheran response to the Left Behind Series:”

    “On the contrary, because the Jews were broken off in unbelief, the Gospel has gone to the Gentiles, who through grace now partake of its blessings and join with Christian Jews to constitute the Israel of God, the church of Jesus Christ (Rom 11:11–16). In Romans 11 Paul defines this relationship between Jews and Christians when he distinguishes between natural branches (the seed of Abraham according to the flesh) and foreign branches (Gentiles) who have been engrafted into the same tree. There is certainly a difference in their respective histories and genealogies (not all are natural branches), but in Christ both Gentile and Jewish believers are now the seed of Abraham (Rom 11:17–24).”

    Remember, Jesus is God in the flesh – and He said my kingdom is not of this world. We all need to quit searching for a worldly kingdom fulfillment when God Himself has said that’s not where to look. Jews, Gentiles, all are part of this kingdom – the fulfillment of God’s promises – in Jesus we are of a non-worldly kingdom of God. We are the fulfillment and partakers of the promise.

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    Scripture comments those who “tremble” at God’s word (Isaiah 66:5). Jesus likewise notes that “Scripture cannot be broken”. Please read the actual Scriptures quoted above, there are not many, and see if you really think that your response to them is adequate. Be careful that you do not “nullify the word of God by your tradition.” (Mark 7:13)

  • One4Life

    I understand your position. I think according to Scripture your view is incorrect. The OT promises have not been negated, rather they are fulfilled in Christ and God’s people. It is not the Lutheran view that nullifies the word of God but instead those who wish to establish and proclaim a worldly kingdom of God who continue to miss the boat.

  • Bones

    Ezekiel 11 refers to the return from Exile.

    Read the whole chapter.

    It has nothing to do with the modern day state.

    One can only think you want to round up Jews and send them all to Israel to see your nut bag theory come true.

  • Bones

    By filling frightened schoolgirls full of bullets…….

    That showed me how moral you are.

  • Bones

    How are you going to make all the Jews go back to Israel?

    No wonder you support the occupation, you’re going to need the Palestinian land for all these Jews you’re going to round up.

    Its quite sick really.

  • Bones

    Oh and actually do some Bible study.

    Ezekiel 11 refers to the return from Exile. Read the whole chapter.

  • Bones

    Well that’s nice but there are many Christians in Palestine who are being forced out by Israeli occupation.

  • Bones

    Most Palestinian Christians are leaving due to Israeli occupation and the effects on the Palestinian economy.

    There’s plenty of studies on that.

    But your Zionism mates don’t want you to know that.

  • Origen17

    Or the fact that Jewish scholars themselves know and have stated the fact that “Edom is in modern Jewry”, and that the Ashkenazis are not Israelites by blood, but Khazars. Of course, conformational bias will just say “uh uh… that’s anti-semitc”… and yet the facts remain.

  • Origen17

    If Israel weren’t “Jewish”, American Christians would condemn them. The only reason they don’t is because of a certain strain (not a universal one… just a sect) of theology originally made popular by Scofield, who wasn’t even a legitimate Bible scholar, historian, or archaeologist. But that said, being an “Israelite” has NEVER been about genealogy. It is a legal status in the eyes of God. In ancient Israel, ANYONE could join the tribe, if they swore their allegiance to the King (God) and followed the laws of the land (the divine law). And any racial Israelite would be kicked out for not following the laws. (There’s an interesting immigration policy for us to consider)… “Israel” exiting Egypt had a whole “Mixed multitude” that were considered Israelites from that time forward. Abraham, who wasn’t a “Jew”, had no physical descendents, but his entire house of servants was considered part of his family. The northern kingdom were never considered “Jews”, since Judah was only in the southern kingdom. In any case, Paul and John both make it clear that being an Israelite is an issue of allegiance, not race. Jesus is the “chief of the tribe” now, and our allegiance to Him defines our status in the eyes of God.

  • Colin Austin Barnes

    You raise an important question. Did the return from exile in 539 and following fulfil the prophecies re the restoration of Israel? To answer in two parts,

    Firstly, did the people at the time see the return from exile they were living in as fulfilling these prophecies? The return under Zerubbabel was never viewed within the Bible as the fulfilment of the prophecies. Daniel 9:25 describes that time as; “It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.” Zechariah 4:10 calls it “the day of small things”, Haggai 2:3, etc. Turning to the New Testament, to those living in this post-exilic Jewish community, everyone believed those promises had not yet been fulfilled. Those promises remained to be fulfilled. Simeon was “waiting for the consolation of Israel”, (Luke 2:25) Anna “spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Jerusalem.” (Luke 2:38). That is, the return from exile under Zerubbabel had not redeemed or comforted Jerusalem.

    Luke 1:67-75 His father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied: 68 “Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel, because he has come and has redeemed his people. 69 He has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David 70 (as he said through his holy prophets of long ago), 71 salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us– 72 to show mercy to our fathers and to remember his holy covenant, 73 the oath he swore to our father Abraham: 74 to rescue us from the hand of our enemies, and to enable us to serve him without fear 75 in holiness and righteousness before him all our days.” They were still looking for redemption, they were still looking for salvation from their enemies, and they were still looking for God to remember his holy covenant and to fulfil the oath he swore to Abraham. They were still wanting to serve God all their days.

    Re the general desire for something more, John 6:15, Acts 5:36-37.

    The disciples on the road to Emmaus “but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel”. (Luke 24:21) (He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! (Luke 24:25)

    So when they met together, they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” (Acts 1:6) Peter likewise clearly did not believe that everything promised by the prophets had already been fulfilled in the post exilic community. “He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets”. (Acts 3:21)

    The disciples were still looking for Israel to be redeemed and the kingdom restored to Israel.

    The second answer is to “believe all that the prophets have spoken!” (Luke 24:25) How did the prophets, in this case Ezekiel, describe the return? Did the return under Ezra etc meet these conditions? The reference I quoted was;

    Ezekiel 11:17-20 “Therefore say: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will gather you from the nations and bring you back from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you back the land of Israel again.’ “They will return to it and remove all its vile images and detestable idols.

    I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

    See also;

    Ezekiel 28:25-26 ” ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I gather the people of Israel from the nations where they have been scattered, I will show myself holy among them in the sight of the nations. Then they will live in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. 26 They will live there in safety and will build houses and plant vineyards; they will live in safety when I inflict punishment on all their neighbors who maligned them. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God.’ ”

    Ezekiel 37:21-28 and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God. 24 ” ‘My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’ ”

    Ezekiel 39:25-1 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will now bring Jacob back from captivity and will have compassion on all the people of Israel, and I will be zealous for my holy name.

    26 They will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward me when they lived in safety in their land with no one to make them afraid. 27 When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will show myself holy through them in the sight of many nations. 28 Then they will know that I am the LORD their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind.

    29 I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the house of Israel, declares the Sovereign LORD.”

    So, just looking within Ezekiel, the prophet spoke of a time when Israel would be re-gathered. He also describes the conditions which will apply then – did these conditions exist in the community from Ezra to 70AD? Is that the restoration being spoken of, or is another restoration in view?

    Well, when God gathers the people of Israel from the nations where they have been scattered, the people will have an undivided heart and a new spirit, and will be God’s people. God will cleanse them, and they will live in the land God gave to Jacob, where their fathers lived. They will live there forever in a covenant of peace. None will make them afraid.

    Was this the situation of the return from Babylon??? Let’s see, they were divided into sects, Pharisees, Sadducees, Zealots Essenes etc., they rejected and crucified the One God sent to them, there was war in the time of the Maccabees, and war with Rome destroyed the nation. They did not live there forever in a covenant of peace, with none making them afraid.

    Conclusion; if you, like Jesus and Paul, believe everything in the prophets, then you will see that the return from exile was not what the prophet Ezekiel was prophesying about.

  • Bones

    Ummm. It wasn’t a futuristic prophecy. When are you people going to see that prophets aren’t clairvoyants or fortune tellers.

    It’s quite clear that Ezekiel is referring gto the Exile. Ezekiel 40-48 deals with the restored Temple and many synagogues after the Exile were influenced by Ezekiel.

    You have to be pretty dishonest to think it refers to anything else.

  • Andy Yardy

    I have been on a journey over the last year that crosses paths with this issue. I visited Israel for the first time a year ago. During that time I spend a day with Muslim Palestinian in the West Bank. He helped me see a slice of life there that to this day his hard to swallow. The very next day I visited the Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem. I felt ripped apart being faced with two huge injustices one from the past and one in the present. To this day I don’t know how to even resolve it but I know we have to talk about it and not ignore it. Thank you so much for this post it helps me and is important to the conversation. I made a short documentary from my experience. Its on youtube I hope it pushing the conversation forward as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpdyDBUGgDU

  • Kimbrough Leslie

    The only flaw I see in this otherwise excellent list is that there is no continuity between ancient Israel and the modern secular Israeli state, a fact recognized by some Hasidic sects who reside in Israel but do not recognize the state itself.

  • Kimbrough Leslie

    Israel hardly qualifies as a “liberal western democracy,” propaganda notwithstanding, especially if you are an Arab Israeli with second-class citizenship (including poor health care among many other disparities) or a Palestinian Christian, Muslim, or Druze living under apartheid-like illegal occupation, seeing your internationally recognized rights abused and your dignity assaulted daily, your access to your crops blocked, your water diverted, and your children subject to violent harassment, imprisonment, and even death for no reason, not to mention non-violent resistance.

  • Kimbrough Leslie

    “Abraham…had no physical descendents [sic]” ?????

  • One4Life

    You should try being a Jew or Christian in Lebanon or Iran. Talk about injustice. I’m sure Israel is imperfect due in part to the unbelievable pressures they live under and are surrounded by. But in their imperfection they are the imperfect best in the region.

  • Bones

    You should try being a Palestinian Christian.

    Btw Lebanese Christians have no love for Israel either.

  • Origen17

    I’m obviously talking about before Ishmael and Isaac. Before them, Abraham had a “house” or “family” – it was a legal status.. those loyal to Abraham.

  • Bob Franklin

    or a Christian in Israel ethnicity notwithstanding, for that matter. Do a youtube search on how Christians are really treated in Israel & you’ll get a rude awakening.

  • Kimbrough Leslie

    Not so “obvious,” neither your literal definition of the term “Jew” as only describing Judah, the southern kingdom. Whether from the time of the Exodus, the settlement of Palestine, or later incorporation of foreigners such as Ruth, you are correct, Jews were not a “race,” a dubious social construct today. But Jesus was no chief of any tribe, and our “status in the eyes of God” is about grace and our faithfulness to God as Christians.

  • Kimbrough Leslie

    There is no excuse for the oppressed becoming oppressors. As a Jewish friend once said, “We didn’t survive the Holocaust in order to beat Arabs with clubs [and worse.]” And those who claim a divine right to the land clearly haven’t read or understood the message of the Hebrew prophets, which was always about God’s expectation of justice, especially for the foreigner, the widow, and the orphan.

  • One4Life

    89% of Palestinians support terrorist attacks on Israel. 89% support Sharia law. Among other beliefs incompatible with western society, sharia law says people who leave Islam and convert to other religions may be imprisoned or executed, homosexuals may be imprisoned, scourged, or executed, a woman inherits half of what a man does, and perhaps most significantly, the mosque and the state are not separate — meaning sharia law trumps state law. 89% of Palestine when surveyed say they support sharia law. So now you know – is it possible to live in peace with a people who support these things and 89% who support terrorist attacks on your country? It would be interesting to see how other countries would respond if they shared a border with such.

  • Kimbrough Leslie

    I am very skeptical of your survey results. I wonder who conducted it, the wording of the questions, the methodology, the participation sample, etc. What form of sharia? What kind of terrorist attacks? The Irgun, the Hagannah, and the Stern Gang were Israeli terrorists by any definition of the word, killing British and innocent civilians as well. If it’s your country, they’re freedom fighters; if it’s your enemy, they’re terrorists.

    That said, if your country was being occupied by a foreign army in violation of international law, your family were subject to random home invasions or even fire bombing by fanatic squatters, your children were being imprisoned or killed for throwing rocks, your homes demolished, your water access cut, your fields inaccessible from your home due to a massive wall, your mosques and churches attacked and burned with impunity by fanatics, you might not look kindly on the occupier.

    Also, Christian and Muslim nonviolent peace activists, whom you might think Israel would welcome, have consistently been met with violent military responses, imprisonment, and in the case of Mubarak Awad, deportation with full U.S. cooperation. Our tax dollars and support of a variety of companies directly supply the development and use of weapons used against Palestinian children and teenagers.

    What weapons would Jesus choose?

  • One4Life

    Less than 2 percent of Palestinians in the Occupied Territory are Christian. However, of the 1.4 million Palestinians living in Israel 8 percent are Christian. Interesting.