God Never Changes, But God Is Constantly Changing (It’s The Paradox of Love)

God Never Changes, But God Is Constantly Changing (It’s The Paradox of Love) February 16, 2016

Closeup of Wooden Christian Cross

I’m sure over the course of time as a Christian you’ve heard the phrase, “but God never changes.” A variation of this phrase is repeated several times in Scripture (See for example, Mal 3:6, Heb 13:8, James 1:17).

However, it is my contention that we often do not actually understand what this phrase means. At times we unintentionally misapply the concept to soothe tension in the Bible. Other times, we say “but God never changes” as a way to win a theological argument.

For example, I cannot count the times when my fellow Christians have quoted the Law of Moses and either insisted the Law still applies to Christians, or contended that the Law somehow reveals God’s true and unchanging character.

It usually works like this: I say, “Jesus taught us to love our enemies” and they say “But there’s all sorts of violence and enemy killing in the Old Testament, and God never changes.” This fancy trick can be applied to a host of issues– just quote a random verse, add to it “God never changes” and poof, the debate is supposedly settled.

(I take that back. I bet if you told them, “There was polygamy in the Old Testament, and God never changes!” they’d reject the argument.)

We use it in other ways that misapply the concept, but with perhaps less intentionality than as a debate winning strategy. For example, we might look at how God acted within a particular story in Scripture and insist that God would act that same way in other scenarios, because of course, “God never changes.” This too, I believe, is a mistaken use of the concept.

But, the Bible does say that God never changes. Like, a bunch of times. If we affirm Scripture, we affirm the truth of the statement– but what does it actually mean? What if the whole thing is a paradox and affirming that God never changes is actually an affirmation that God is always changing?

I believe affirming that God never changes is simply an affirmation of the central essence that makes God who God is. However, this doesn’t mean that God always acts the same from one situation to the next, or even that God doesn’t change his mind. It is simply an affirmation that God’s core essence is unchanging.

For example, I could say, “I am Benjamin L. Corey, and I never change” and this would be a true statement if I were speaking of the core essence of what makes me, me. My core essence is that I am a human being made up of all the molecules and DNA that makes a human a human. My core essence is also that I am an image bearer of God. In that regard, I never change. However, that doesn’t mean I don’t change my mind or that how I interact with the world around me, or in relationships, is always the same. Clearly, it’s not.

I believe the same can be said of God: God never changes because the essence of God never changes. In the Bible we are told that this essence is pure and complete love (1 John 4:8). Thus, we can say that God never changes because God is always love and nothing can make him less than love. Furthermore, we can say that God never changes because God is unable to act in any way that would be unloving. (For more on this concept, see the Uncontrolling Love of God by Dr. Thomas Jay Oord.) Thus, God is unchanging because God is love and God always acts in loving ways.

However, beyond the constraints of God’s love-essence, God does change. In Scripture we see both that God does change his mind, and does change in how he interacts with the world within given scenarios. Greg Boyd outlines some examples of God changing in this way:

“The Lord frequently changes his mind in the light of changing circumstances, or as a result of prayer (Exod. 32:14; Num. 14:12–20; Deut. 9:13–14, 18–20, 25; 1 Sam. 2:27–36; 2 Kings 20:1–7; 1 Chron. 21:15; Jer. 26:19; Ezek. 20:5–22; Amos 7:1–6; Jonah 1:2; 3:2, 4–10). At other times he explicitly states that he will change his mind if circumstances change (Jer. 18:7–11; 26:2–3; Ezek. 33:13–15). This willingness to change is portrayed as one of God’s attributes of greatness (Joel 2:13–14; Jonah 4:2).”

Now, why does any of this matter for the average Christian?

I think it matters a lot, but more than anything because it invites us to ask the same question that God is always asking: “What is the most loving choice out of all of the options available to me?”

God is unchanging love. But the way he loves changes all the time depending on the circumstance. In fact, love invites us to be constantly changing and adapting to achieve the most beauty that’s possible– even if that means we love in ways that contradict how we loved in the past. Ironically, the unchanging nature of God is the very thing that causes God to be constantly changing— because love always grows, changes, and surprises us in beautiful ways.

Yes, God changes. His unchanging essence of love demands it. That’s the paradox of love.

In Scripture I see a God who is always changing– not in essence, but in how to love a world that’s constantly changing. The reason God changes is due to a combination of his unchanging essence of perfect love, and the divine constraint that requires God to always seek the options that lead to the most beauty. As situations change, the options as to how to love best also change.

It’s how we went from Gentiles being out to Gentiles being in. It’s how the outcasts became the guests at God’s banquet. It’s how the late vineyard workers got paid a full day’s wage. It’s how the unclean became clean.

It’s why the excluded progressively become the included, even today.

Love changes as other variables change– even unchanging love.

And here’s where that ultimately matters: the Bible invites us to be imitators of God, and God it seems, is always asking: “What’s the most loving choice out of all the options available to me?”

Call me crazy, but I think maybe we should all ask that question a little more often.

Stay up-to-date! Follow the guy who would have been burned at the stake 500 years ago:

"plus it's costing us without giving anything in return."

No, The Bible Doesn’t Command We ..."
"..................................a season of destruction into a season of new creation.Peter? Paul?Me?I think it is His ..."

Sometimes, We’ve Got to Put the ..."
"Yes and restored twice as prophesied. Nothing like that has happened to the Arabs. Israel ..."

5 Reasons Why I’m A Christian ..."
"You cannot make a case by mere assertion. All history, all culture, language, religion, archaeology, ..."

5 Reasons Why I’m A Christian ..."

Browse Our Archives

Follow Us!


TRENDING AT PATHEOS Progressive Christian
What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • Jerry Lynch

    For me, Paradox is the native tongue of truth. Anyone who has experienced a spiritual Epiphany will attest that after that moment nothing had changed yet everything was different.

  • Yes!

  • i used to plow with the Quakers and they had a saying when this happens; they saying ‘way’ opens up. I think they mean Jesus Way. and my experience is that Jesus is a way maker! I just recently had a heaviness lifted off of my spirit (i had a crisis and I ask the members of klov radio prayer team to pray for me last night). though nothing has really changed in my immediate environment and circumstance, the weeping I did last night has turned to joy this morning! *iiii):D

  • Susan Schmidt

    Great post, Benjamin. I think this is at the core of why Jesus reduces the commandments to one (two). This command is unchanging – love your neighbor, love God, but what that means is always in context. Hence, Jesus redefines how to love oneself (the Sabbath is given as a gift to us) while still loving our neighbor (taking a cow out of a pit, or doing works of healing).

    My favorite analogy is to think of what it means to love a plant. I love my plants, but giving the same amount of water to one as another may mean the death of that plant. Similarly, to love my children with their different personalities and as they grow up means different things at different times.

    Perhaps an easy way to say this is to say that God never changes. His purpose of loving us all into the Godhead is bedrock to who God is. But what that love looks like as God pursues his passion is different depending on the person (people group) and context, and dependent on where we are in the evolution of our understanding of God and neighbor and self.

  • “…love invites us to be constantly changing and adapting to achieve the most beauty that’s possible– even if that means we love in ways that contradict how we loved in the past.”

    Such a beautiful way of explaining this concept!

  • I tend to say God’s character never changes. He’s not loving one day, unloving the next. He’s not idealistic in public, pragmatic in secret (no matter how Calvinists like to describe the “secret will” of his they’ve invented). He’s the same, in this sense, yesterday today and forever.

    But change of plans? Change of mind? Sure; happens all over the bible.

  • Jerry Lynch

    God bless, my friend, and thank you for being so open. Mourning to me is the narrow gate; so few will admit to or try this “way.” Mourning is very big.

  • RonnyTX

    Charles, glad to hear that things are better for you! :-)

  • Realist1234

    ‘Its how we went from Gentiles being out to Gentiles being in…’. Yes but that was God’s plan all along. We just didnt understand it. He didnt change His mind.

  • Realist1234

    The problem with those who adhere to ‘open theism’ is that they often reduce God. And they ignore the fact that God is not subject to time – space and time are interlinked as shown by Einstein, and as God is not limited by space so He is not limited to or affected by time. The idea that the future is unknowable, even by God, is ludicrous.

  • mourning one’s losses & active grieving opens the gate to acceptance of life on life’s terms. the discipline to achieve lasting changes to one’s character flaws and deepest core issues can finally find traction IMHO. ‘way’ can lead one to make oneself available emotionally, spiritually, physically, (as I assume it did for Jesus) to the leading of the Holy Spirit whereby one’s experience of acceptance of one’s suffering is transformed to empathy for others who suffer and one is often given the spiritual gift of encouraging, healing & discernment. Because one has established oneself in the discipline of constant contact one is literally walking in the spirit and acceptance is becoming a daily habit IMHO. so much of God’s Shalom hinges on this! for me, an alcoholic, it’s what I’m depending on in order to keep sober and serene. *iiii):D

  • Wolf

    I have two points in response to that.

    First, knowing and doing are two different things. Your response seems to suggest that because God knows the future, he is unwilling/unable to change the future. Or that He doesn’t need to change the future because everything is already in place. That precludes the very notion of free will. If God already knows every decision we’re ever going to make and has the universe set in place accordingly, that is a being who is incapable of love because it invokes that Problem of Evil paradox: a god who is both all-powerful and all-loving cannot be all-knowing. A god who is all-loving and all-knowing cannot be all-powerful. A god who is all-knowing and all-powerful cannot be all-loving.

    Second, keep in mind too that the “unchanging nature” of God completely falls apart at the instant it is used to invoke legalism – which is the greater point the author is making in this article. Because Jesus constantly said, “You have heard it said [x], but I say [y].” The Bible CLEARLY says that shrimp are unclean – but God said to Peter, “take and eat.” The Law of Moses CLEARLY says, “An eye for an eye,” but God says, “Love your enemies.” The point is, even if God is 100% unchanging, and everything you say is completely right, it doesn’t affect the necessity for us to treat others with love (and not in a “I love you enough to tell you how horrible you are” sort of way). Even if God doesn’t change, the idea that OUR UNDERSTANDING of God doesn’t change is ALSO ludicrous.

  • Doesn’t sound as if you understand open and relational theology. We believe that God knows everything that is possible to be known about the future.

  • Nimblewill

    What if the whole thing is a paradox and affirming that God never changes is actually an affirmation that God is always changing?

    Could God change from a being that hated something to a being that loved that which he had before hated? I think this is what scares the average person who could even bring himself to think about such things. Could I become unloving to God and therefore become unloved by Him?

  • Realist1234

    Perhaps Wikipedia is wrong – if it is you should amend it – but it says ‘open theism would see it (God’s knowledge of the future) as a plurality of branching possibilities, with some possibilities becoming settled as time moves forward. Thus, the future as well as God’s knowledge of it is open’. This would seem to imply that as the future depends on mankind’s choices, He is unable to have complete knowledge of that future. Is my understanding incorrect? If so could you pl clarify. If my understanding is right, then I stand by what I said, as open theism ignores basic physics. ‘Time moving forward’ is only relevant to space/time-bounded life forms such as humans, not by God who is not limited by His creation.

  • Bones

    Lol……

    Did He change His mind on killing gay people, or for picking up sticks on the Sabbath, women being unclean during their period and killing your fiance if you find out she’s not a virgin?

  • Realist1234

    The basic point I am trying to make is that God is not affected or limited by time (as we understand and experience time) as time itself does not exist in a vacuum (metaphorically!) – space/time are intertwined and time (again as we humans understand and experience it) would not exist without space. So within this Universe, time is indeed relative, as Einstein has shown.

    As for your first point, I would suggest that one of the main reasons open theism has become accepted by some is precisely because they want to be able to understand and explain the problem of evil, and particularly human suffering. They accept the logic of your argument as you have stated regarding the Problem of Evil. But I would suggest that your logic is not necessarily logical! Why do we have to demand that God explains Himself?! In truth I do not know why there is so much suffering in the world though of course it is obvious that much human suffering is directly caused by humans themselves. The logic of your argument depends, for example, on your definition of ‘all-powerful’. I would define that as God’s ability to do anything that is intrinsically possible and which also accords with his nature. For example, God is unable to lie as that goes against His nature/character, even though lies are often told by humans. I believe God is all-knowing (incl the future), all-powerful and all-loving, and am content to accept that I, as a very limited human being, cannot know all the ‘whys’ of life.

    As for your second point, when Jesus said for example ‘you have heard that it was said…’, He was saying just that – not what God necessarily said in the OT, but what the Scribes and Pharisees had been teaching the Jewish people in Jesus’ day. For example, in Proverbs God says ‘If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he is thirsty, give him water to drink’. I dont see how that is ‘hating’ your enemies. So the idea of loving your enemies is not new to the New Testament. It should also be remembered, though it is easy to forget given how we tend to read the Bible today, that the Old Testament primarily concerns God’s choosing of and dealings with a specific group of people in a particular location over a specific period of time – it is hardly surprising that not everything that He told them then still applies now, and to all people, such as what to eat.

  • Yes, God knows what is possible to be known about the future, which is the possibilities that could occur. However, in a universe with both random events and creatures with free will, some things are not possible to be known since not all actions are predetermined. In this way, God knows everything there is to be known about the future, but does not know what is unknowable (how an agent with free choice will act in a given scenario). Thus, God knows all that is possible to be known about the future, which is all the existing possibilities.This isn’t an argument that God is limited in knowledge, but that some thing are impossible to know.

    The alternative is, however, that everything is predetermined ahead of time, and that position invites a ton of trouble because it makes God morally culpable for evil.

  • Realist1234

    Its a shame you use Einstein’s face, considering he was a deist.

  • Arlene Adamo

    “What’s the most loving choice out of all the options available to me?”

    This is a very good article with a very good message.

    Another way of looking at it is that God is Unchangeable but the world, that is not Divine but contains the Divine, is constantly in flux. Our ability to describe what is Unchangeable is hampered by a language that can only describe that which is in constant flux. We say “God is angry” “God has changed God’s Mind” etc. because that is all we can conceive of and that is all our language is able to do. The way we describe God is similar to the way people used to think the sky moved but the earth was still. We change, God the Perfect One does not.

  • Realist1234

    Thanks for the reply, and I still disagree with open theism and your view!. It still ignores the nature of time itself as we understand and experience it – see my comments to ‘Wolf’. You also seem to confuse ‘predetermined’ and ‘knowable’. I am not arguing necessarily that God has predetermined exactly what will happen at each moment in time, as if by some dictator, though it is obvious that he ‘influences’ history. But that does not mean He does not know the actual future, given He is not affected or limited by time. It seems you are treating God as if He exists purely within our physical Universe, which is not the case. As you would agree, He existed ‘before’ the creation and is not subject to it or its limitations.

    You also mention ‘random events’. I would suggest that some events are ‘random’ to us because humans are not all-knowing. I remember that scene from Jurassic Park when the chaos theorist puts a drop of water on the arm of the scientist in the car, and asks her to predict which way the drop would move. She couldn’t, and he correctly explained that was because of the minute details that she was unaware of – the bumps on her skin, the fine hairs on her arm, the movement of the car etc etc. But imo, God does know such minute details (‘hairs on our heads’ and even our thoughts), and logically can ‘predict’ events 100%. From a purely predictive point of view, you could probably predict how your wife would react in a given situation, even with your limited human knowledge and experience of her. How much more so God, who knows us intimately! Though, imo, He has no need to predict as He is not bound by time and already knows what is going to happen. So I would suggest that events that we perceive as ‘random’ are not in fact random to God (and I wont even start with quantum mechanics!). I would therefore suggest that for God, there is nothing that is impossible to know, including the actual future.

  • Herm

    How can any parent ever believe our Father and Brother in heaven cannot change with Their children that They love more dearly than any carnal parent (all combined as one) has ever yet learned to love? How can any real teacher who has stayed and related in relationship with her/his class for even a semester not know that in the end the Teacher learns more from that class than His disciples?

    We have been graced the seed of a spirit in the image of our Creator that They may harvest the fruit that can only come from the spontaneous and dynamic relationship of free choice granted a child by his/her parent. I had the choice, at the beginning, to keep my children in a rubber room sterile from any new ideas and perspectives other than what was of my ideas and perspectives. My children would have, to this day forty years later, no scars from struggling to learn to be responsible for themselves and theirs.

    I grew and changed with my children as does my Father and Brother in heaven grow and change with me. Oh, the memories of non-coerced or rehearsed laughter, joy, heartache when sharing each unpredictable moment with my children in reciprocal love…

    What would we, God and us, do for an eternity together if not share all we can together as we learn, change accordingly, and learn again to change accordingly? We are each in God unpredictable except in our love for each other.

    There is no value to me in inheriting eternal life if all it is singing robotic praises to God or having to be all alone on my cloud strumming my harp. My God loves sharing the newness of each new unpredictable day that I wake right here on earth while with and in me. I don’t want this divine relationship I know today to end but yearn for it to continue to grow well beyond the limitations of this carnal earth as I am ready; always subject to change according to the influential contributions of each of us who are learning to love as we are loved more each day by God.

  • John Kuykendall

    “But, the Bible does say that God never changes. Like, a bunch
    of times. If we affirm Scripture, we affirm the truth of the statement–
    but what does it actually mean? What if the whole thing is a paradox and
    affirming that God never changes is actually an affirmation that God is always changing?”

    I would respond that God is unity, which would include everything. In that unity of one nothing changes, but what is inside that unity would change; therefore we have duality in unity.

  • Matthew

    I´m new to this open theism idea. Before (and if) I become critical of it, I would like to understand it better. I have tried to wrap my head around it and I simply cannot. Maybe it´s beyond my comprehension.

    That said, if I am understanding at least part of this theory correctly, it seems that open theists posit that God only knows future possibilities, not the whole future because humans have free will (opposite of the Calvinistic idea that everything is preordained and God knows all).

    My first question is, if God is indeed God is it not entirely possible that he even knows the choice I am going to make before I make it?

    Also, why is open theism such a dirty word these days in evangelical circles? It seems to me (with my limited knowledge) that it´s all part of the ongoing Arminian/Calvinist debate which has been going on for a long, long, long time. I didn´t think one could be labeled a heretic if one embraced either Arminianism or Calvinism — I simply thought either position was theologically and biblically tenable.

    Finally, if open theism is true, what consequences does that have for us on a day to day basis in terms of our relationship with God?

  • Bones

    Nothing wrong with deism.

    Did god change his mind on those things or not?

  • Bones

    No conservative wants to answer this…..

    Did God change His mind on killing gay people and is it an immoral law (think ISIS)?

  • Bones

    Dear God please please bless my brother.

  • Tim

    I’d personally argue that God doesn’t change, even in the way God loves; but our understanding of God does change. A lot of the old testament (and a fair bit of the new) is people’s perception of how God is, so just because someone in the OT says “God changes his mind” doesn’t necessarily mean that’s true. Revelation is progressive, but God doesn’t change.

  • Herm

    It’s a shame that you remain apart from God and don’t understand natural law as still very much applicable. God does remain separate from the universe except, in grace, to intervene only to bring sufficient balance and harmony so that natural law does not apply fully in the consequences of our childish efforts to prove the stove’s burner will not burn our little hands. Natural law is all summed up in Matthew 7:12 and will not change.

    Just because God needs no particular clock/sun to tell time does not mean God is stagnate with no anticipation. Without any beginning and having no end does not mean there is no unstoppable movement of time to mark where we are on the journey. Spirit is not subject to the dimensions of carnal boundaries so can be within and outside itself simultaneously. Immortal and mortal life is a journey of ever changing relationship, all indelibly recorded in order once it has been. Joy and humor are only found as a reaction to the unpredictable. Woe is grief for the predictable. My Father in heaven loves an uncontrollable barrel laugh as much as the rest of us. The saddest part in the chronicles of Jesus’ life on earth was we don’t have the history of when he played and laughed as a child with His carnal peers and with His disciples as their Brother.

    If you truly want to be a realist in the study of God the real WORD is available to teach you once He whelms you with the Holy Spirit, you are invited. Until then you aren’t nearly as close to real with God as is an honest deist who doesn’t allow his peers to dictate his observations.

    Just maybe your observation isn’t as informed as you thought it was, just maybe.

  • Herm

    Why do you say that?

  • ZionArt

    So brother Benjamin you “see a God who is always changing– not in essence, but in how to love a world that’s constantly changing” and that “the reason God changes is due to a combination of his unchanging essence of perfect love, and the divine constraint that requires God to always seek the options that lead to the most beauty. As situations change, the options as to how to love best also change.”

    And this position you hold is quite evident in your belief that God has affirmed gay and lesbian Christians, despite what the word of God says about homosexuality, because our God is “always changing.”

    So brother Benjamin is it your view that our God view has changed with regards to incest or bestiality? Would our God affirm any Christian who engages in either one of these acts so long as they are in a committed monogamous relationship and that heaven doors would be opened to them upon dying? Since you hold the belief that our God is “constantly changing” so that he now affirms gay unions because most of the world nations has changed to accept homosexuality, then simple logic would hold that you would view that our God now affirms incest, bestiality, or any sexual act that the word of God condemns correct?

  • RonnyTX

    ZionArt to Benjamin:
    (snip) And this position you hold is quite evident in your belief that God has affirmed gay and lesbian Christians, despite what the word of God says about homosexuality, because our God is “always changing.”

    So brother Benjamin is it your view that our God view has changed with regards to incest or bestiality? Would our God affirm any Christian who engages in either one of these acts so long as they are in a committed monogamous relationship and that heaven doors would be opened to them upon dying? Since you hold the belief that our God is “constantly changing” so that he now affirms gay unions because most of the world nations has changed to accept homosexuality, then simple logic would hold that you would view that our God now affirms incest, bestiality, any sexual act that the word of God condemns correct?

    Ronny to ZionArt:
    Ah my yes, comparing being gay/homosexual to incest and bestiality! I know I’ve been compared to that. But why did you forget pedophile? Hmmm, you must be slipping! (ha) LoL And yes, I am a Christian and I’m gay. Born of God, when I was 16 years old. God let me know I was lost, not in a right relationship with God. Then God directed me to a person, who simply read a scripture passage to me. And as this guy did that, I knew God was also there and God who was holy. God showed me my sinful selfrighteousness and led me to repent of that. And just as soon as I had repented/agreed with God, the love of God began to pour out on me. :-) And God put a picture in my mind of three crosses. And I knew on that center cross was Jesus Christ and that he was there for me, there taking all of my sins upon himself. And that is how God saved me, that is how I was born of God. See you in the next life, when time has ended and eternity has begun. :-)

  • ZionArt

    So gay Christian brother Ronny since brother Benjamin hasn’t gotten back to me quicker than you did I’ll ask you the same question put to him. Do you view that our “constantly changing” God now affirms incest, bestiality, or any sexual act (pedophilia, adultery, etc….) that the word of God condemns as he has, at a date unknown, affirmed homosexuality correct?

  • Herm

    If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

    Matthew 7:11-12 (NIV2011)

    Moses assembled the whole Israelite community and said to them, “These are the things the LORD has commanded you to do: For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a day of sabbath rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it is to be put to death. Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”

    Exodus 35:1-3 (NIV2011)

    At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

    He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

    Matthew 12:1-8 (NIV2011)

  • RonnyTX

    Ben, I don’t see that we have a free will. At least not in the here and now. And no, I don’t believe God is morally culpable for evil; but I do believe God created and uses evil and that for good. That is, God brings good out of every evil. God can do that; but we human beings can’t.

  • Unfortunately, I had to deduct two letter grades off this submission because you compared a committed, life-long, consensual relationship between two adults to having sex with an animal.

  • ZionArt

    Brother Benjamin I ask again is it your view that our God view changed with regards to incest or bestiality as you deemed our God has towards homosexuality?

  • Herm

    You would have to share the same God view as in, “that our God view changed“, for Benjamin to be the brother you wish. He is not for he knows the the creator God in his heart and mind as the only inerrant word of God and you do not. There is only one Teacher and it isn’t you or the scripture you worship. There is only one Judge who knows the needs of both heaven and on earth and it isn’t you or the scripture you worship. There is only One with all authority over heaven and on earth and He lives. I ask you, who do you think you are?

  • Realist1234

    I dont think its appropriate for you to say I ‘remain apart from God’. It is you who lacks understanding. End of discussion.

  • ZionArt

    So is that a yes or no to my question to brother Benjamin brother Herm?

  • Herm

    It is clear who you wish to intimidate, manipulate and subjugate. Your brilliance isn’t shedding any further light on the entire law you seemed to seek to enforce without sitting on the Moses seat. It is too late for the tribe of Levi for the authority to judge, and speak for the Lord God, has passed to the reigning High Priest and the Advocate to speak for Him.

    That Judge and High Priest said;

    the entire law we are judged according to is:

    So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

    Matthew 7:12 (NIV2011)

    how we manage to live within that law is:

    Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    Matthew 22:37-40 (NIV2011)

    Perhaps you should look a little closer to see the plank in your eye that blinds you to be able to judge others before yourself. Benjamin obviously fulfills the law and you do not.

    The only fruit of your spirit lies in your exercise of coercion, intimidation, manipulation and subjugation of others to your will and not the will of our Father in heaven.

    Who do you think you are and by whose authority do you persecute?

  • Herm

    By whose authority can you say it is inappropriate when it is you who doesn’t respect a deist as you would want a deist to respect you?

  • ZionArt

    One more time is that a yes or no to my question put to brother Benjamin brother Herm? It is clear that you progressive Christians who view that our God Is constantly changing “It’s The Paradox of Love” don’t want to answer the question of our God changing views and affirming gay Christians but supposedly not other relationships and/or acts that the word of God condemns.

    Affirmation arguments are not hard to deconstruct. If our most High God view has changed with regards to homosexuality, at a date unknown. Then do you believe that our “constantly changing” God now affirms incest,
    bestiality, or any sexual act (pedophilia, adultery, etc….) that the word of God condemns?

    And would our God affirm any Christian who engages in any one of these aforementioned prohibitive acts, just as homosexuality is in the law of Moses, so long as they are in a committed monogamous relationship and that heaven doors would be opened to them upon dying?

  • Herm

    You Pharisaical Levitical law types are so easy as, according to Christ, this isn’t an argument for either of us to pass judgment over. If you understood the law you would know that intimidation, manipulation and subjugation of any other is adverse to the law God lives within. Apply that to any mutually consenting adult relationship to see the difference of what, and who, is within the law and who, and what, is outside. The fruit of your spirit is well outside.

    You have no authority to judge beyond what affects you and yours. You have an insufficient perspective and source of covenant to place yourself on the seat of Moses. You usurp Jesus’ granted authority over heaven and on earth.

    I ask you, again, who do you think you are? By what authority do you speak? What are your credentials to speak for God?

    Ben and I are little brothers only because we are both students of the same Teacher. By your fruit you cannot be our brother for you do not even know our Teacher, only a distant awareness of Him.

  • ZionArt

    Herm says: You have no authority to judge beyond what affects you and yours.

    That’s wrong brother Herm because the word of God shows that a brother or sister in Christ, Jesus, like Paul, can judge the sinful actions of others in the faith if there is no sin in their life that they are committing (Matthew 7:3-5).

    1Corinthians 5:1-3 shows how the apostle Paul judged the sinful act of a Christian believer at Corinth who fornicated with his step mother. In verses 12 Paul writes to the Corinthians “For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? Do not ye judge them that are within?” And he told the congregation at Corinth in verse 13 to “put away from among yourselves that wicked person.”

    The apostle Paul even judged the apostle Peter when he behaved in a discriminatory fashion against the Gentile Christians at Antioch. In Galatians 2:11-14 God word says “But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?”

    Now can you answer my question put to brother Benjamin?

  • Herm

    The word of God is what I know by the filling/whelming/baptism of the Holy Spirit only. The books of the New Testament were never asked for nor canonized by God the Father or the Son. This testified as witnessed before the New Testament was written, edited, compiled and canonized under the patronage of Caesar Constantine:

    After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

    Acts 4:31 (NIV2011)

    If this scripture I write to you is not the word of God spoken boldly then I ask that God strike me dead before this gets out!!! If you are reading this then these words are no less divinely ratified by my Father in heaven and my Lord Jesus than are those writings of Paul, Peter and James. I even have 1,950 years of more certain human history since the earliest writings in the New Testament to know Jesus and God’s active love for us in Their image.

    No, not nearly enough evidence of authority for your judgments outside of in everything do to others as you would have others do to you. You certainly have much less authority to judge than had the Pharisees and teachers of the law (attorneys from the tribe of Levi) who crucified Jesus because they also did not know God’s Spirit in their heart and mind.

    I do not study under Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter or James but only under the tutelage and instructions of one Teacher.

    But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah.

    Matthew 23:8-10 (NIV2011)

    Ben and I have only one Father.

  • Ron McPherson

    Has God changed with regard to the Levitical laws, or the command to stone disobedient children, or not to sow one’s field with two different kinds of seed, or not to wear a garment with mixed fabric, or for women not to adorn themselves in costly garments, or to obey the sabbath, or women to not uncover their heads in worship, or for women to remain silent in church, or that one cannot be Christ’s disciple unless he has sold all his goods, or that divorce for any reasons other than adultery is forbidden, or men not to round the corners of their beard, or that illegitimate children and their descendants thru the 10th generation are not permitted to enter the Lord’s assembly?

  • Ron McPherson

    “…the word of God shows that a brother or sister in Christ, Jesus, like Paul, can judge the sinful actions of others in the faith if there is no sin in their life that they are committing (Matthew 7:3-5).”

    Ah ok. So you’re sinless. Okey dokey

  • ZionArt

    the word of God shows that a brother or sister in Christ, Jesus, like Paul, can judge the sinful actions of others in the faith if there is no sin in their life that they are COMMITTING, which means actively engaging and/or partaking in transgressing against the commandments of God.

  • ZionArt

    Ron McPherson I’m going to answer your reply with part of my commentary on Romans 2 the Lord blessed me to complete for his kingdom, honor, and glory.

    The Lord, through the apostle Paul in verse 16 speaks to both Pastor Phillips and Whitney Kay Bacon misapplying the Levitical laws regarding mixed fabric garments, the eating of bacon and shellfish, and the wearing of tattoos to New Testament Christians when it says “In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”

    The apostle Paul wrote half of the New Testament and men and women who identify as gay Christians can see that in Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; 1 Timothy 1:9-10, all of these books written by Paul, he, under the influence of the Holy Spirit (2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21), condemns any Christian who transgress against the commandments that’s stated by God to the prophet Moses in Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13.

    And even as the Holy Spirit was stating through the apostle Paul the sins and behavioral acts, which anyone who is called of Christ that do such, will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:3-5) it was not the wearing of mixed fibers, the eating of bacon or shellfish (The Lord cleansed all meats in Act 10:10-16; Colossians 2:16) or the wearing of tattoos that the Lord condemns in the New Testament but any act Gods word calls unclean (Romans 1:24; Galatians 5:19; Ephesians 5:3-5), that was against nature (Romans 1:26-27), without natural affection (1 Timothy 1:9-10) or an abomination (18:22 & 20:13; Revelation 21:8, 27). This is all what the word of God says about homosexuality.

    So New Testament Christians, who has a tattoo, wears mixed fiber clothing, eats bacon with their eggs, or has a bay shrimp salad sandwich (which I recommend with toasted honey wheat bread, with a slice of lettuce, and light mayo on the side of bread to place on top of the lettuce to make the sandwich complete) are not sinning against God.

    And there is one more thing that Ms. Whitney Kay Bacon mentioned that needs clarifying. Ms. Whitney Kay Bacon opining that being divorced is a sin is unscriptural because getting a divorce and being divorced, while remaining unmarried, is not a sin. God’s word only calls divorced couples remarrying committing adultery if the original cause of them getting a divorce was something other than one spouse committing adultery in their marriage.

    The Lord Jesus in the beatitudes in Matthew 5:31-32 “It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.” Notice that the Lord Jesus doesn’t say that divorce was a sin but that if those that were divorced; if it was for anything other than fornication, had remarried then they both would commit adultery.

    Jesus again when talking to the Pharisees Matthew 19:3-9 which says “The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.”

    The Lord expounded on divorce through the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 7:9-16 which says “But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

    But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

    But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? Or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?”

  • Bones

    God once commanded that you take Ronnie out and cut his throat, throw him off a building, or shoot him in the head for loving men.

    Does God still want you to do that or did he change his mind?

  • Bones

    Don’t be too worried Ron eating crabs is the same as paedophilia according to this clown’s logic.

  • Bones

    Wow someone’s quoting their own commentary.

    How amusing.

  • Bones

    God changes.

    Or our understanding of him does.

    Think about it.

    There’s a challenge.

  • Bones

    So can you tell us your sins then…..

  • Bones

    So what about killing your fiance for not being a virgin.

    Do you go around checking women’s virginities with your gun in hand?

  • Ron McPherson

    Ah ok. So you allow yourself the freedom to contextualize all sorts of Scripture to fit within your own theological constructs but you don’t afford that same opportunity to gay Christians.

  • RonnyTX

    ZionArt to Ron:
    (snip) And even as the Holy Spirit was stating through the apostle Paul the sins and behavioral acts, which anyone who is called of Christ that do such, will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:3-5) it was not the wearing of mixed fibers, the eating of bacon or shellfish (The Lord cleansed all meats in Act 10:10-16; Colossians 2:16) or the wearing of tattoos that the Lord condemns in the New Testament but any act Gods word calls unclean (Romans 1:24; Galatians 5:19; Ephesians 5:3-5), that was against nature (Romans 1:26-27), without natural affection (1 Timothy 1:9-10) or an abomination (18:22 & 20:13; Revelation 21:8, 27). This is all what the word of God says about homosexuality. (snip)

    Ronny to ZionArt:
    No, this is what some people say about those who are gay/homosexual. So you have gotten your belief on this from some people and not from God/Jesus Christ.

  • RonnyTX

    ZionArt to RonM:
    the word of God shows that a brother or sister in Christ, Jesus, like Paul, can judge the sinful actions of others in the faith if there is no sin in their life that they are COMMITTING, which means actively engaging and/or partaking in transgressing against the commandments of God.

    Ronny to ZionArt:
    So, are you saying, that you do not sin? If that is what you mean, then can you tell us how long it’s been, since you last sinned?

  • ZionArt

    So do you mean to tell me that you receive authority from our Lord Christ, despite what the word (who is Jesus) of God says, about the affirmation of homosexuality from the Lord Jesus himself?

  • Ron McPherson

    Got it. So since you don’t “actively” sin that means you have no logs in your own eyes, are blameless before Almighty God, and thus qualified to point out sin in others. Uh, ok.

  • RonnyTX

    Bones to Ronny:
    Don’t be too worried Ron eating crabs is the same as paedophilia according to this clown’s logic.

    Ronny to Bones:
    :-)

  • ZionArt

    Just as you and brother Benjamin believing in our God who constantly changes his view on His word.

  • RonnyTX

    God affirmed being gay as something good, with the first gay person God created. And the same for those persons, who are bisexual or heterosexual. Those things are good gifts of God, to individual persons. But of course, we can choose to misuse such and that so be we gay, bisexual or heterosexual. But just as surely, such can be used in a right and loving way.

  • Bones

    Someone has decided to cast themselves as the Pharisee. …

  • Ron McPherson

    So why do you feel it’s ok for you to claim authority from God to interpret Scripture (by the way there are a lot more examples I gave you earlier that you failed to address), but you deny RonnyTX that same benefit?

  • Ron McPherson

    Hmm. Funny you say that since I haven’t told you what I believe.

  • Bones

    Those laws about killing people god supposedly gave are good according to the limited worldview of people like Zionart.

    Now they’re bad……

    But God doesn’t change………..or something.

    Here’s a thought God never said any of those things.

  • Ron McPherson

    Absolutely incredible how Jesus’ message gets so utterly missed and convoluted

  • Bones

    I’ll say.

    The whole point of the gospels is to show where you fit into the story.

    That some have decided to become the Pharisee says a lot but its nothing new.

  • Noah

    Quite the discussion.

  • RonnyTX

    ZionArt to Ronny:
    So do you mean to tell me that you receive authority from our Lord Christ, despite what the word (who is Jesus) of God says, about the affirmation of homosexuality from the Lord Jesus himself?

    Ronny to ZionArt:
    What I’m saying, is that 20 years ago, I had to search and think on the scriptures for myself, that I had been taught condemned my being gay. And I had believed they condemned my being gay, from the time I was 12 years old to 40 years old. Now I had been born of God, at 16 years old, so I knew from that, how greatly God/Jesus Christ loved me. :-) But I also thought God was highly disappointed in me, because I was gay. I got that last belief from some people; but not from God. But at a very young age, these same people had taught me to believe, that all they said was of God and true beyond question. So without my realizing it, I was taught idol worship, in the local church I grew up in. Then at 40 years old, I found out about other Christian people, who were also gay. I found out about a book by one of them and got that at my local library and read that. And I could see from what this fellow wrote, that he and his male spouse were not living in sin and that they loved each other. So this called into question, what I’d been taught about my being gay- how I was supposed to have chosen that, how sinful it was,etc. So that was called into question and I had to know the truth, whatever that turned out to be. So I simply turned to God and asked God to guide me and show me the truth about all of this, as I read and thought on the scriptures, that I’d been taught condemned my being gay. What shocked me as I read those scriptures, was that I could see they didn’t condemn my being gay. But I got down to the last scripture on this and I couldn’t see but that it condemned my being gay. That was confusing, because I had seen the others didn’t do that. So, I despaired from ever knowing the truth of this matter, in a 100 percent sure way. I so despaired, that I looked up from the table where I was reading and studying, saw my rifle over in the corner and had thoughts of suicide. I simply thought it would be better to be dead, than to not know for sure, if God said my being gay was sinful or not. But as soon as I had that thought of suicide, God put this verse of scripture in my mind! :-) “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.” Romans 8:28 So God reminded me, how much God loved me. :-) God reminded me, how much I could trust God. :-) So I simply stopped there, trying to understand some things and I simply asked God, if my being gay was sinful or not? And what shocked me, was God immediately answered my prayer and that with a no! :-) Yes it shocked me, that God answered my prayer in that way. So, I simply said the same prayer, for the 2nd time and God simply answered my prayer and again told me no. So then I knew directly from God, that no, my being gay was not sinful at all. :-) And I had my answer for this from where I wanted it, directly from God and not from some people. Of course, in the time after this, God also had to help me with my anger, at some people. At the ones who had led me to believe the lie, so many years before, that my being gay was sinful and the worst of sins. God helped me with that. But the thing in this, that puts the biggest smile on my face, is God simply letting me know and see, that my being gay was a good gift of God/Jesus Christ, to me! :-)

  • RonnyTX

    True! :-)

  • In Exodus 20:5 God states “You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,” but in Jeremiah 31:29-30 it states “In those days they will not say again, ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children’s teeth are set on edge.’ “But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.” So it appears that God can change how he relates to his people or are you putting limits on what God can do?

  • Herm

    … just exactly which “word of God” tells you this? What actively participating sin are two mutually consenting adults doing sitting in your congregation holding hands or even kissing, of any sexual attraction? How do you judge any only by what you envision goes on behind doors closed to your eyes?

  • there’s a good article I read today on exploring our matrix about debating with fundamentalists. I highly recommend!

  • ZionArt

    Ronny there is a way to tell to see if I am right or what you’d replied to me is right. Now I am going to state for the record that I don’t recommend that you do this, however since you’d replied saying that our God told you in prayer that it was okay to violate what he stated throughout his holy word then there is a way to tell whether what I have been saying to you is right or what you’d stated is right.

    The way that it could be known which one of us is right is to do whatever God’s word says in the New Testament for you not to do; specifically the behavioral acts apostle Paul wrote, which includes homosexuality, that they which do such shall not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:3-5).

    If what you’d said to me is right then when I meet Jesus in
    heaven, after he gets through judging me, is going to tell me to my face that what I had said to you and many others about gay Christians being against the word of God was wrong. Then the Lord Jesus is going to bring before me you and all of the gay Christians that I spoken out against to apologize to before I enter into heaven, which I, without question, am going to do to you and all of the gay Christians I had spoken out against and you’re all going to have to forgive me for the hurt that I had caused you on earth and we shall all enter into eternity in heaven as brothers in Christ saved and bought by his blood..

    However if what I had been saying to you is right and the behavioral acts the apostle Paul wrote, which includes homosexuality which they that do such shall not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:3-5) that you’d committed and died without repenting. Then when you lift up your eyes in hell don’t get mad, don’t be surprise, and most certainly don’t be confuse. Just know that the word of God told you not to do that which put you in hell and you didn’t listen.

    Just realize when you are screaming in torment that the word of God told you not to do that which you’re in hell for but you caste God’s word behind you so the word of God saw fit to caste you into the lake of fire.

  • Bones

    More threats.

    The fundies are certainly geting desperate.

    There is no lake of fire.

  • The word isn’t Jesus, Jesus is the Word. Very different things– you have them back asswards.

  • Well, there are only 2 commandments these days, and as far as I can tell you’re too busy breaking the second that you’re unable to keep the first.

  • Ron McPherson

    Well since you brought out the clobber verses as somehow being a laundry list of sins that would disqualify one from eternal life (as if Christ was powerless to save those), I trust that you also accept in woodenly literal fashion everything else on those lists. Gluttons who ‘idolize’ food are disqualified, everyone of us hetero males who are guilty of lust which equates to adultery, anyone who steals time from their employers (thieves), anyone who desires the neighbors boat down the street (covetous), those who are ‘jealous’ of their coworkers promotion, those who can’t control their temper (angry outbursts), those who ‘envy’ the pastor with the bigger church, pretty much any middle class American and up who suffer from ‘greed’ (if we didn’t suffer from materialism then no one would be hungry, do I hope you don’t have a TV, or computer or microwave, cellphone, expensive clothing etc), or anyone who tells off color jokes (coarse jesting). I’m betting a dollar to a donut that you put many of these items on the list in context, but boy oh boy not when it comes to the homosexuality part. Even if it’s a sin as you affirm, why would Jesus be powerless to save one from every sin but that one?

  • Herm

    ZA, this, from the New Testament scripture witnessed 1,932 years ago, is how Ronny receives authority apart from the New Testament scripture you mistake for the word of God.

    “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

    John 16:12-15 (NIV2011)

    This just one example that was witnessed since Jesus’ ascension and what it looks like to outsiders.

    After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

    Acts 4:31 (NIV2011)

    But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

    Hebrews 12:22-24 (NIV2011)

    You are loved just as you are. The Holy Spirit can help you to be the child of God you appear to want to be, really. Your fruit will become less judgmental and more sacrificial for all you love in the example of Ronny.

    You are invited to the heavenly Jerusalem where the temple mount is in each and every spiritual heart and mind of Jesus’ disciples, administered faithfully by our living High Priest forever.

    If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

    Luke 14:26-27 (NIV2011)

    All who come as little children are welcomed!

  • ZionArt

    Brother Herm your reply takes me back to my original question put to brother Benjamin that neither you nor anyone whose replied to me haven’t had the courage to answer yes or no. And I know that the reason why y’all haven’t had the courage to answer my question is because of my follow up question to you answering yes or no that you affirmation Christians don’t want to deal with.

    One more time: If our most High God who’s constantly changing “it’s the Paradox of Love” has affirmed LGBT Christians at a date unknown to inherit his eternal kingdom, despite LGBT Christians violating his stated commandments in Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13, Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, and 1 Timothy 1:9-10.

    Then do you believe that our “constantly changing” God has also giving affirmation for Christians to commit incest, bestiality, or any sexual act (pedophilia, adultery, etc….) that the word of God also condemns, just as homosexuality, that they which do such thing shall not inherit the kingdom of God and have their part in a lake burning with fire and brimstone (Revelation 21:8)?

    And would our most High God affirm any Christian who engages in any one of these aforementioned prohibitive acts, just as homosexuality is in the law of Moses, so long as they are in a committed monogamous relationship and that heaven doors would be opened to them upon dying?

  • Ron McPherson

    The reason you aren’t getting the answers you want is not due to our avoidance of it. It’s impossible to answer a question of another when we’re talking two different languages. You’re framing the questions as if we are all in agreement on a base starting point. If we strive to live according to Jesus’ two commandments, then the desire to become the sin police vanishes. If we adopt the commandments to love God and others, then we begin to focus more on our own standing before God in missing the mark (and not so much about telling others how far THEY are missing it). Further, we begin to view others thru Jesus’ lens in that we all are made in the image of God. Why spend so much time on trying to identify sin instead of adhering to the commandments of the one we’re claiming to follow? Love God, love others. Seriously everything would fall into place if we all get this!

  • Herm

    ZA, until you are filled by the Holy Spirit you are not my brother in Jesus Christ for Christ is not in you. When your heart and mind is filled by the Holy Spirit you can review what has been offered you here to see that we have been answering your question directly from the heart and mind of Christ.

    Hopefully this will pique your interest beyond the overwhelming plank in your eye. Consider if any act of relationship among mankind and God were not intimidating, manipulative and subjugating can it be a sin against any? Get the intimidation of our species (and the Roman Catholic church) to propagate via carnal sex out of your head for there is no, and never was, marriage in heaven.

    You don’t seem to understand that what Jesus saved us from, by becoming our High Priest by His sacrifice, is the judgments of those occupying the Moses seat by covenant granted to be stewards of the tabernacle (the hard copy prophesy of Jesus’ coming as the first born lamb of sacrifice) specifically the tribe of Levi. It was by that seat of covenant authority that Jesus was crucified because they did not recognize the Holy Spirit who was residing in the Holy of Holies. At Jesus’ last breath on earth the curtain before the Holy of Holies was torn completely from top to bottom and the new covenant began. The carnal temple of Zion no longer and three days later the new temple restored in heaven. That is the hard facts testified to in your Bible you would see if you weren’t so obsessed with who else is sinning against Man and God. Once actually whelmed by the Spirit of truth you begin to learn what Jesus meant when He said, “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.”

    Please, judge not unless you wish to be judged in kind. By my judgment as your brother of Man who loves you you are not my brother in Christ. This divine relationship is spiritual and is not something you earn by being convicted to become a member of any religion of Man. This is something you are invited to accept by the will of our Father but only if you risk to come in all humility as an ignorant, non-judgmental little child free of Levitical law and filled by the Holy Spirit. You are not.

  • ZionArt

    So brother Herm you judged me as not being filled by the Holy Spirit, which you should know that everyone who calls Jesus to be their Lord and Savior receives the FREE gift and indwelling of the Holy Spirit (John 7:39; 1Corinthians 12:3; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:8) all because you, an affirmation Christian, refuse to answer a simple question that goes to the heart of your beliefs.

    I see that the plank clearly hasn’t been removed from your eye.

  • Bones

    It’s a shame you can’t answer the question.

  • Herm

    On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”

    By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

    John 7:37-39 (NIV2011)

    … on Jesus’ last carnal breath!!!

    ZA, which “Christian” do you think I am affirming to? I am a student of the only Teacher directly and no other father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even me—on earth or in heaven can be my Rabbi in any form, corporation or institution.

    “Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”

    After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

    Acts 4:27-31 (NIV2011)

    If you pray their prayer according to your life in all humility as a know nothing little child you too will be baptized by the Holy Spirit (not simply cleansed by immersion or sprinkling in the water of the carnal womb). You then can speak the word of God, with no piece meal parchment for reference, boldly because it is directly from the WORD in the beginning, as many here are doing. Woe to you if you remain content to judge from Scripture as did the Pharisees and teachers of the law who crucified the Christ in the name of their God.

    I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

    John 5:36-40 (NIV2011)

  • RonnyTX

    ZionArt to Ronny:
    Ronny there is a way to tell to see if I am right or what you’d replied to me is right. Now I am going to state for the record that I don’t recommend that you do this, however since you’d replied saying that our God told you in prayer that it was okay to violate what he stated throughout his holy word then there is a way to tell whether what I have been saying to you is right or what you’d stated is right.

    Ronny to ZionArt:
    ZA, that is not what I said. I simply said I asked God if my being gay was sin or not and God answered my prayer and told me no. So I got my answer on this from where I sought it and that was, directly from God. Now you want me to believe you; but then you weren’t on the cross for me. You didn’t go to the cross for me and there take all of my sins upon yourself. No, it was Jesus Christ who did tht for me and not you. So it is God/Jesus Christ who I follow and listen to and not you and some other religious leaders.

    ZionArt to Ronny:
    The way that it could be known which one of us is right is to do whatever God’s word says in the New Testament for you not to do; specifically the behavioral acts apostle Paul wrote, which includes homosexuality, that they which do such shall not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:3-5).

    Ronny to ZionArt:
    ZA, as I’ve already told you, God put me in the kingdom of God, when I was born of God, at 16 years old. So are you now saying, that God didn’t know what he was doing, when he let me know I was lost, showed me my sin and led me to repentance and took me on to faith in Jesus Christ?

    ZionArt to Ronny:
    If what you’d said to me is right then when I meet Jesus in
    heaven, after he gets through judging me, is going to tell me to my face that what I had said to you and many others about gay Christians being against the word of God was wrong. Then the Lord Jesus is going to bring before me you and all of the gay Christians that I spoken out against to apologize to before I enter into heaven, which I, without question, am going to do to you and all of the gay Christians I had spoken out against and you’re all going to have to forgive me for the hurt that I had caused you on earth and we shall all enter into eternity in heaven as brothers in Christ saved and bought by his blood..

    Ronny to ZionArt:
    ZA, I’m not judging you; but the plain truth is, I don’t know if you’ve been born of God yet or not? But this I do know, if you have not yet been born of God, then there is coming a time, when you will be. :-) For God/Jesus Christ will see to that.

    ZionArt to Ronny:
    However if what I had been saying to you is right and the behavioral acts the apostle Paul wrote, which includes homosexuality which they that do such shall not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:3-5) that you’d committed and died without repenting. Then when you lift up your eyes in hell don’t get mad, don’t be surprise, and most certainly don’t be confuse. Just know that the word of God told you not to do that which put you in hell and you didn’t listen.

    Just realize when you are screaming in torment that the word of God told you not to do that which you’re in hell for but you caste God’s word behind you so the word of God saw fit to caste you into the lake of fire.

    Ronny to ZionArt:
    ZA, there is no Jesus Christ created hell of eternal torment. But the teaching that there is, that is from pagan religion. And the bible as written in Hebrew and Greek, did not have the teaching of hell in such. But as best I understand it now, that teaching of hell was added onto the bible by Jerome, in his Latin Vulgate translation of the bible. So you see, there is no Jesus Christ created hell of eternal torment, for you, me or anyone else to go to. And the truth is, Jesus Christ is truly the Saviour of the whole world. And as the angel told the shepherds, the birth of Jesus Christ was good news for all people. :-) And we are also plainly told in scripture, that all died in Adam and all are made alive in Jesus Christ. And I don’t claim to know exactly what the next life will be like; but this I do say, it will be great and that for every person from Adam on down! :-) For God/Jesus Christ, will see to that! :-)

    Below is a link to a good webpage, called if hell is for real. I hope you will read it, as well as some other good articles, on that webpage.

    http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/ifhellisreal.htm

  • Seán

    Interesting article. It does differ somewhat from my own personal belief, but it is not in conflict with it. Actually, it may further along my own thoughts, and for that I thank you for sharing. I have always felt that God does not change, but that we humans are evolving to understand Him better. I actually believe that is the point, is it not? We are trying to draw closer to Him and I believe we have had successes in some areas and failures in others. However, when I reconsider my own position I do believe that God’s unchanging attribute is that He does not change at His core as you describe. He will not respond to similar situations the same because similar does mean identical. There are no two identical situations and the repercussions of each situation will be different causing God to address them differently.

  • I’m curious how you would interpret the words of the angel to Abraham, when Abraham was prevented from sacrificing Isaac (Genesis 22). The angel says, speaking directly for God, “now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.” (22:12) It certainly seems as though God is saying that the future was uncertain — God did not know whether Abraham would actually follow through with this. And indeed, that’s exactly how rabbis have interpreted that speech for thousands of years now. As one medieval rabbinic commentator put it, “God can only know things that can be known.”

  • Realist1234

    I would suggest that God was experiencing in real-time what He already knew. And it must be said that often God speaks in terms for our benefit rather than His own. For example, also in Genesis He asks Adam ‘Where are you?’ On face value, we should read this to mean God actually did not know where Adam was in the garden, otherwise He wouldn’t have asked the question. But few people would believe that (the idea that the Creator of the universe did not know the whereabouts of a single man is ludicrous). So although on first sight, such a question would seem to indicate a lack of knowledge on God’s part, in truth it doesn’t. God gave Abraham the opportunity to show his genuine faith in Him, and Abraham now knew that God had witnessed it in action, which God acknowledged. When God speaks to us, it is often for our own benefit.

  • Realist1234

    If it was ‘just’ as simple as that ‘love God, love others’, why for example, would Jesus bother to go into detail as to how to deal with a fellow Christian who had sinned against you? These were practical instructions for day to day living. He didn’t say ‘Oh just love God and love each other and forget about sinful behaviour…’. It is not about the ‘sin police’ but rather adhering to Jesus’ and His apostles’ teachings on sexual immorality. But it should also be said that sometimes gay sexual behaviour has too often been highlighted compared to other sins, though in recent times that has been primarily due to the acceptance of gay ‘marriage’ by some societies.

  • theprozacqueen

    Why is it that nearly Every. Single. Time homosexuality is mentioned, the whole “incest and bestiality” argument pops up? I remember history class teaching that these were pretty much the same arguments against interracial marriage…I’ve seen scripture used to justify that view too. Interracial marriage been allowed for decades and the world hasn’t ended yet. I don’t see it ending this time either.

  • Jeff Preuss

    “Why is it that nearly Every. Single. Time homosexuality is mentioned, the whole “incest and bestiality” argument pops up?”

    Because it shows who is truly obsessed with sex, and it shows that some people have absolutely no concept of consent. Some people cannot see beyond the acts they assume we do, to see the people caught in the crosshairs.

  • RonnyTX

    ZionArt to Ron McPherson:
    Ron McPherson I’m going to answer your reply with part of my commentary on Romans 2 the Lord blessed me to complete for his kingdom, honor, and glory.

    The Lord, through the apostle Paul in verse 16 speaks to both Pastor Phillips and Whitney Kay Bacon misapplying the Levitical laws regarding mixed fabric garments, the eating of bacon and shellfish, and the wearing of tattoos to New Testament Christians when it says “In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”

    The apostle Paul wrote half of the New Testament and men and women who identify as gay Christians can see that in Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; 1 Timothy 1:9-10, all of these books written by Paul, he, under the influence of the Holy Spirit (2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21), condemns any Christian who transgress against the commandments that’s stated by God to the prophet Moses in Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13.

    Ronny to ZionArt:
    ZA, you really need to go back and read Romans 1:18,32 again. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+1&version=KJV

    I know that at a very early age, I was taught that last half of Romans chapter one, condemned my being gay; but as I say, I got that belief from some people and not from God. But at an early age, I thought it was from God. Then at 40 years old, that was called into question, so I simply asked God to show me the truth, as I read some scriptures.

    I started with this part, in Romans chapter one. Now I had been taught to completely focus on verse 27, where it talks about some males having lust for each other. And of course, I had, had some sexual desires for some males, ever since I entered puberty and was 12 years old. I had that for some males, just as heterosexual males entering puberty, have the same for some females. But as I say, I was taught to completely focus on that part in verse 27, where Paul speaks of some, males who have lust for other males. And I was taught to completely condemn and put down myself, because yes, I had sexual desires for some males. And what I was never taught to do, was to consider this part of verse 27, in the context of Romans 1: 18,32. But that changed, when I got to 40 years old. At that time, I asked God to show me the truth, of whether my being gay was sinful or not? I had been taught that certain scriptures condemned my being gay, so I prayed and asked God to show me if that was true or not?

    I started in Romans chapter one, reading from verse 18 to 32. So what I didn’t do, was focus on a little part, in verse 27. And when I did this, I saw that Paul was talking about people who were idol worshippers. People who made and set up and worshipped idols and that in the place of God. Because they did this, in verse 26 and 27, Paul says God gave these people up to vile affections. And in verse 27, he says the men left the natural use of the women. Well you see ZA, right there I could see Paul was not talking about me here, for I’d never had the natural use of the women. For I was not and never was heterosexual; but from 12 years old, I was gay-only attracted to some males. So you see, I could of never of left, that which I never had to start with.

    Then in verse 28, Paul tells us these people he’s speaking of, they didn’t like to retain God in their knowledge. In verse 30, he says they were haters of God. Well this part also told me, that Paul wasn’t speaking here about me or other gay people. For it was at 16 years old, that I was born of God. It was at that age, that God proved to me, just how greatly God/Jesus Christ loved me! :-) And because God did that for me, I just naturally loved God/Jesus Christ in return. So I liked to think on God/Jesus Christ, how they had proved to me, how much they loved me. How can you not love someone, who goes to a cross for you and there takes all of your sins, upon himself?! And that is exactly what Jesus Christ, did for me. :-) And God showing that and proving that to me, when I was 16 years old and in my being born of God. :-)

    So you see ZA, Romans 1:18,32, that’s Paul talking about people who were idol worshippers, who made, set up and or worshipped idols and that in the place of God. And he says these people hated God and didn’t even want the thought of God in their minds. And I also like the place, where Paul said these people were disobedient to their parents. Well, guess what, I never desired to be that. I had no reason to, for my parents raised me up, with love and caring. And they proved their love for me, by both word and deeds. :-) So again, this was another proof to me, that in Romans 1:18,32, Paul wasn’t talking about me as a person who was gay and condemning that, as a horrible sin.

    Just thinking more, about how well my parents raised me, with love and caring :-) and how badly I was raised in some ways and taught in church, by some people. But taught in church, that whatever I heard there, from the pastor and elders, was always true and the same as my hearing such, straight from God. And as a child and young adult, I knew no better, than to believe that man taught lie. That taught sin of idol worship, of some people. But then, when I got up to 40 years old, God taught me better. :-) And I am so grateful to God, that God did that for me! :-) But I still hate the fact, that some gay or bisexual kids are being taught the lie, that they are horrible sinners, because they’re gay or bisexual. All older Christians, they need to learn and know better, so that they can do a much better job of raising the young ones. So they can teach them the truth of this matter, what God/Jesus Christ says and not what some people say. For to listen to, believe and never question the words of some people, as if they were God/Jesus Christ speaking to you, that is simply the taught sin of idol worship.

  • RonnyTX

    I think some people, have been taught so badly, so many lies about gay people, so that they believe a gay person will have sex, with what ever and who ever they can get their hands on! (ha) And these people have been taught to believe so many lies about gay people, so that it just never even enters their mind, that a gay person can love someone of their own gender and even wish to be with that person, as a couple and that for life.

    As for interracial marriage, I have nothing against that; but with me being nearly 61 years old and living in rural, small town NE Texas, it still is rather strange for me, to see an interracial couple. Now I don’t think such is wrong; but it still seems strange to me. I just don’t mean strange, as in a bad way. Just strange, as in something I’m not that used to. Which is kind of funny in it’s own way, since I am part white and Native American Indian. And when I was 40 years old, my Mom told me that we were also part black. I’m sure my parents didn’t tell me that earlier, because they were afraid such news would get out and us kids would be mistreated by some people, if it did. But for sometime now, I’ve liked to tell some people, that I’m part white,NA Indian and part black. So you see, I am a perfectly fine, 100% American mutt! :-) LoL I can laugh about this; but then I wonder, why some people, make such a big deal about interracial marriage? Such makes no sense to me, because the color of a persons skin, that tells you nothing about the persons character. One has nothing to do, with the other. And one color of skin, that makes no one better than the other. Yet I’ve known Christian people, who thought they were better, because they were white. And that made no sense to me. For the scripture simply tells us, there are none good, no not one. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. And Jesus Christ, he was on the cross for us all, taking the sins of all of us, on himself. So since we all needed that, it is just past silly, that anyone would think themself better than another, because of the color of their skin!

  • Herm

    This is why you speak on a different frequency as many of us here. You study piece meal parchment to tell others that they are sinning. You don’t hear the word of God directly from the WORD to repeat boldly to those who cannot adhere to Matthew 7:12 and 22:37-40. Those who cannot live within the commands of Jesus harm others by their judgments, apparently to protect Jesus’ church they think they belong to, better left to Jesus today.

    “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

    John 5:36-40 (NIV2011)

    Jesus hasn’t paused for one moment of the last 1,983 years to tell those who would hear more that He has yet to say.

    “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

    John 16:12-15 (NIV2011)

    All who hear and apply in everything do to others as they would have others do to them. Those who do not hear and cannot apply what Jesus is saying today are not fellow disciples of Christ prepared to admonish a wayward disciple in Jesus’ name. Those who do admonish others in the name of Christianity do so in following what their particular sect of religion has to say that they call Christianity, very often admonishing other sects who equally call themselves Christian.

    The little quotes around marriage are indicative of the sin of the expert in the law using the phrase ‘the one who had mercy’ instead of the Samaritan.

  • ZionArt

    theprozacqueen Show me the scriptures that you’d seen to justify arguments against interracial marriage because I can show you in the book of Numbers 12:1-10 how the Lord punish Moses sister Miriam with leprosy for speaking out against Moses for marrying an Ethiopian woman.

    And again my question, which you amid many others who have replied to me haven’t answered goes to the heart of Christians who believed that our most High God has affirmed LGBT Christians, at a date unknown, to inherit His eternal kingdom but supposedly not the other prohibitive sexual acts that the word of God condemns.

    So I’ll ask this question again for you to answer with a simple yes or no. One more time: If our most High God who’s constantly changing “it’s the Paradox of Love” has affirmed LGBT Christians at a date unknown to inherit his eternal kingdom, despite LGBT Christians violating his stated commandments in Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13, Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, and 1 Timothy 1:9-10.

    Then do you believe that our “constantly changing” God has also giving affirmation for Christians to commit incest, bestiality, or any sexual act (fornication, adultery, etc….) that the word of God also condemns, just as homosexuality, that they which do such thing shall not inherit the kingdom of God and have their part in a lake burning with fire and brimstone (Revelation 21:8)?

    And would our most High God affirm any Christian who engages in any one of these aforementioned prohibitive acts, just as homosexuality is in the law of Moses, so long as they are
    in a committed monogamous relationship and that heaven doors would be opened to them upon dying?

  • ZionArt

    So RonnyTX since you believe that our most High God who’s constantly changing “it’s the Paradox of Love” has affirmed LGBT Christians at a date unknown to inherit his
    eternal kingdom, despite LGBT Christians violating his stated commandments in Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13, Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, and 1 Timothy 1:9-10.

    Then do you believe that our “constantly changing” God has also giving affirmation for
    Christians to commit incest, bestiality, or any sexual act (fornication, adultery, etc….) that the word of God also condemns, just as homosexuality, that they which do such thing shall not inherit the kingdom of God and have their part in a lake burning with fire and brimstone (Revelation 21:8)?

    And would our most High God affirm any Christian who engages in any one of these aforementioned prohibitive acts, just as homosexuality is in the law of Moses, so long as they are in a committed monogamous relationship and that heaven doors would be
    opened to them upon dying?

  • Ron McPherson

    Actually yes, it really is that simple. Read Matthew 22:36-40. The sin of sexual immorality or any other sin for that matter always goes back to Jesus’ two commandments. Every Single Time. The problem occurs when people place themselves equal to the authority of God in determining for others what THEIR sins are. Jesus addressed other issues, even in detail as you say, due to mankind’s failure to live by his commandments. But yes, if mankind truly followed Jesus’ commandments to love God and love others, then sin wouldn’t be an issue. It’s really that simple I think.

  • Herm
  • Ron McPherson

    Friend I don’t know why you feel the need to continue to antagonize one of our own (who models the love and grace of Christ far more than most of us on here), but again you’re framing the question on your own terms and preconceived bias. In spite of RonnyTX affirming his faith in Christ to save him, you’re essentially telling him he’s going to burn in hell anyway. You used clobber verses from Paul’s writings (without even acknowledging there are legitimate other views in relation to context) to basically trump and stampede over what Jesus the Christ, the Son of the living God Himself stated in that “whosoever believes in Him would not perish but have eternal life.” Why would anything Paul wrote steamroll what the Lord and Savior stated in Matthew 5:3, “Blessed are the pure in spirit, for those are the kingdom of heaven.” If anybody models this itsRonnyTX, my brother in Christ Jesus! Jesus never once stated, oh this only applies to the straights. NEVER is the clobber verse caveat used for other issues. Thankfully, NEVER is it used against those who have remarried after divorce for unbiblical reasons to assert these people are living in unrepentant sinful adultery while remaining married. NEVER is it used against the 300 pound fundamentalist pastor who idolizes food. I could go on ad nauseum. Surely you must know that those on this blog have heard your charges a thousand and one times already from other biblical selective literalists.

  • Realist1234

    Sin will always be an issue this side of death or jesus’ return. That is why He and his apostles spelled out how to deal with its various outworkings. Personally I’m not prepared to ignore their words. But certainly we are to look at ourselves first before daring to raise a particular issue with a fellow Christian – I know all about gay sexual temptation so I am not quick to condemn others – but that doesn’t mean one cannot or should not reiterate what the Lord says about sin.

  • Ron McPherson

    Im not for ignoring sin either. It sent Jesus to the cross. But Jesus wiped mine away. And though I’m not gay, it irks me when another suggests he won’t do the same for LGBT people who don’t toe the religious line.

  • Realist1234

    Well Im certainly not saying that as He did it for me.

  • theprozacqueen

    The parts in 1 Kings where God cautions Solomon against marrying foreign wives are the ones I’ve heard used to oppose interracial marriage the most. While said wives may have been of a different race by virtue of being from another place, the passages are clearly about marrying outside your *religion*, not race. And yet this story and Solomon’s subsequent downfall are used as “arguments”…Granted, I live in the Bible Belt, so the Bible is basically “required reading”.

  • Tom Jefferson

    Clearly you have a bias towards deviant perverted behavior. Obviously you are the product of poor parenting. Your parents confused leniency with love and let you grow up in your own confused selfish perverted narcissistic little world. Thinking we enjoy absolute power over our own
    bodies turns into thinking we enjoy absolute power over creation. You are a sad little atheistic troll trying to make your neighbors and their church accept your deviant behavior as normal. That’s not going to happen. Bye

  • Jeff Preuss

    You’re pathetic.

  • MrPenname21

    I don’t think God allows mankind to sin and just keep sinning as long as you love God and others where everybody is happy and that’s all it matters? I think that’s a man’s standard of living not a godly one.My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge,
    Then I said, “They are only the poor, They are foolish; For they do not know the way of the LORD Or the ordinance of their God.
    Jeremiah 5:4
    I think we are serving a righteous God who will not bow down to man’s sinful ways and look the other way and take it like its okay. Because if this is the case then we just disregard what the Word of God says about sin. Let alone justifying what is wrong to be right.. Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight!…Someone has said: “A wrong deed is right if the majority of people declare it not to be wrong. But who’s side are you on? man or God?
    How do we get our values so mixed up? How do we fall into this trap of
    Satan? For one thing, we’re shortsighted. We look for shortcuts to
    happiness. Our lust for immediate pleasure prompts us to think of evil
    as good.We have changed our moral code to fit our behavior instead of changing our behavior to harmonize with our moral code.Certainly our consciences today are perverted. One thing is for sure, God does not change the moral law to suit our behavior. At the end of the day, we have to look unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith. And true Christianity is about loving God and loving others but not condone each other’s sin. Besides, our salvation is individual. Individual relationship with God. It does not matter what others think of what you do, and what you think, as As long as you follow the Word of God. Because what really matters is, truly what God thinks. We can explain and justify our sin and actions with men but not with God. At the end of the day, when your appointed time comes to face our judgement,- its between you and God.

  • MrPenname21

    Can’t agree more..

  • Ron McPherson

    who said that sin was ok?

  • MrPenname21

    Let me answer the Word of God for you…here goes.

    Isaiah 55:8-9Amplified Bible (AMP)

    “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
    Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.

    “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
    So are My ways higher than your ways
    And My thoughts higher than your thoughts.

  • Herm

    Thank you for your effort MrPenname21.

    The “Word of God” is not the Christian Bible but through the Christian Bible I offer you an image of the Word as I know our Creator God in my heart and in my mind (refer to Luke 10:25-37 to understand the spirit we each are responsible to in the image of God):

    The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    John 1:14 (NIV2011)

    “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

    John 4:21-24 (NIV2011)

    “If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    John 14:15-21 (NIV2011)

    “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.

    John 15:26-27 (NIV2011)

    “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

    John 16:12-15 (NIV2011)

    As a disciple (student) of Christ Jesus (refer to Luke 14:26, 27) and I am whelmed (baptized) by the Holy Spirit (AKA: the Advocate, the Spirit of truth, …) I can honestly and first hand share with you that we each can be one with Jesus, the Father and all the children of God. My ways, though immature and childish, are my Lord, Brother and Rabbi Jesus’ ways. I am in Jesus, the Father and all the children of God so God’s ways and thoughts are neither higher nor lower than my ways and thoughts. Through the Holy Spirit we are one in One God as it is written.

    I do hope that you too petition God directly to make the Truth known to you to confidently shed your clear dependence upon the organized corporate church. Thank you, again, for you care!

    Love you!!! Herm

  • Hey Herm, long time no see, how’s it going brother? Blessings upon you!

  • otrotierra

    Herm, your Jesus-centered perspective is needed here!

  • Herm

    Thank you Tony. My opportunities and abilities are much greater than most my age. I have been working lots of hands on retired overtime with my community most especially though amateur radio work and for the Senior Center in town.

    Jesus loves sharing in the day to day constructive and productive community strength building work with and through us all who work towards inclusion and not exclusion.

    I will be back here when my more and more aged focus is called back to this constructive and productive community strength building work right here. It works well here because of many of you, with and without my influence. Ben nurtures this meeting place with love and relationship in and for all mankind and God as each one. I love it here.

    Again, thanks and I do hope all is well with you and not nearly as politically charged with self-serving insanity over there like it is on this side of the pond at this time.

    Love you very much!