5 Ways To Contribute to Drama-Free Holidays With Your Opinionated Family

5 Ways To Contribute to Drama-Free Holidays With Your Opinionated Family November 21, 2016

Family Having Argument Sitting Around Table Eating Meal

So, it’s finally here. The holidays are upon us, and there’s no turning back, and no avoiding them.

I don’t know about you, but while I’m looking forward to the holidays, and while I want to be able to look forward to spending time with my family, I’m currently dreading it.

Most years I experience this, but after a particularly toxic election year with plenty of fodder for a large family to argue about, I feel like the air is ripe for the holidays to easily be soured by religious or political arguments at family gatherings.

How does one survive? How can we make this year different?

While we cannot control other people, we can be proactive in how we will act over the holidays. So, here’s 5 things we can do to help contribute to a drama-free holiday season with our politically or religiously opinionated family:

1. Consider reaching out before the holidays to establish family gatherings as a controversy-free-zone.

Be proactive in setting the tone for how you’d like to experience family gatherings this year. Consider both disarming and pulling those loved ones close by reaching out and asking them to agree to making family gatherings a controversy-free-zone this year.

For example, you could start a group thread with those in your family and say something like this: “I love all of you, and I’m really looking forward to enjoying family time during the holidays this year. One of the things that really gets in the way of enjoying family gatherings is when we end up talking about controversial issues. Can we please all agree to make this year one where we enjoy spending time with each other, and not talk about issues that lead to arguments?”

This can help by disarming those who might feel like you are the one who will be the problem this year, and really helps to set a kind, positive tone.

2. Be honest with them about how you feel when gatherings are ruined by political or religious arguments.

In a non-threatening, non-blaming way, express how you have felt when past family gatherings have been ruined by religious or political debates.

Instead of saying, “Dad really made me angry last year and ruined it!” say things like, “When the holidays have turned into family arguments, I’ve often gone home feeling really sad and hurt about what happened, and this year I don’t want the holidays to be like that for me.”

3. Refuse to take the bait.

The unfortunate truth is that even if you properly set the tone and disarm your family, there’s always a chance that you-know-who will still find a way to make an underhanded comment to get under your skin. Whatever you do, don’t take the bait!

Once you take the bait, you lose all credibility and become part of the problem by engaging in the argument and fanning the flames. Instead, go into those family gatherings resolved and confident that no matter what happens, this year you will be refusing to intentionally participate in toxic nonsense.

4. Calmly and lovingly redirect and reinforce your boundaries.

Refusing to take the bait doesn’t mean do nothing, and it doesn’t mean that you spend the day ignoring that sibling who is continually trying to get you going. Instead, when they do this, calmly and lovingly redirect them and reinforce your boundaries.

Try something like, “I can see you really would like to talk about that, but I love you too much to get into a debate with you this year,” or simply give them a gentle reminder that you all agreed to make this holiday season controversy-free.

Or, diffuse it with humor by saying, “I can see you really want to argue with me, and to be honest, I’d love to argue with you too. But how about we set up a time to have this argument on the phone after the holidays are over? We can yell, scream, and even call each other names. It will be more fun if we set enough time aside to really do the argument well.” And then just give them a mischievous smile that leaves them confused.

5. Build an alliance with other drama-free family members.

The chances are good that you are not the only one in the family who would like to avoid a blow-out argument that makes the day spiral out of control. Identify those people and build an alliance before the family gatherings.

For example, you can reach out privately and say, “Hey– I really want the holiday gatherings to be stress free this year, and I know you do too. So, if Dad starts on one of his rants again this year, can you please help me redirect him so that the day doesn’t go south?”

If you build enough of an alliance, those who want to create drama will quickly realize that if they want to have an argument, it might need to be an argument with just themselves.

Is there a guaranteed way to have a drama-free holiday season with your politically or religiously obnoxious family?

No, there’s not.

You can’t control what others do.

However, you can control what you do.

You don’t have to let your holidays be at the mercy of others– you can be proactive in doing a few things that will contribute to the holidays being happier and drama-free.

These 5 things will help.

What are some others you can think of? Continue the discussion below…

unafraid 300Dr. Benjamin L. Corey is a public theologian and cultural anthropologist who is a two-time graduate of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary with graduate degrees in the fields of Theology and International Culture, and holds a doctorate in Intercultural Studies from Fuller Theological Seminary. He is also the author of the new book, Unafraid: Moving Beyond Fear-Based Faith, which is available wherever good books are sold. www.Unafraid-book.com.

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  • RustbeltRick

    Thank you for this. I always dread Thanksgiving.

  • SamHamilton

    Man, I’m glad we don’t have this problem in our family. People who fight over politics, whether they’re on the left or the right, at the dinner table are obnoxious and need to get some perspective on life. Don’t make politics an idol and you won’t feel the need to jump into each and every argument over it.

  • Artistree

    I agree Sam. We don’t have any problems at all in our family gatherings even though we are diverse both religiously and politically. We respect each other and love each other and when we do express a viewpoint its never in a fighting mood tone. I second your advice: “Don’t make politics an idol….”

  • SamHamilton

    Yep. Nothing wrong with having political opinions, but hold them loosely.

  • Ron McPherson

    So timely. My wife and I had bemoaned this very thing just yesterday. We’ll keep our mouths shut while the Trumpsters crow ha

  • It is not surprising to me that people differ with your controversial views. You can see that on this site all day long.

    To worry about family gatherings, however, is a different matter. if you do not feel free to defend your views among family, who love you, why do you feel free to express those views to strangers on this site?

    Since the political discussion has been turned into a contentious shouting match it may not be the best subject for family gatherings at the moment. Religion is a different matter. For example, I get ask by family every year why I don’t believe Christ’s birthday is December 25th? So I always give them an answer. How are people supposed to learn other points of view if they never hear anything but that which they already believe in?

    I get attacked every time I post anything on this site; many times with the most vile and condescending language. This does not deter me from commenting. You have posted in the past about your strict religious upbringing. I think it should be fun at your stage in life to debate with family that hold those views you so strongly disagree with. Good luck.

  • Brandon Roberts

    people on both sides can be opininated. personally i just make the holidays politics free

  • Bones

    Meh, if its politics or religion, it’s all in….and no prisoners taken….

    Probably why we don’t get together much.

  • dave

    You missed two important things: sarcasm and alcohol. OK, mostly joking. Mostly. To be sure though, your ideas are a little more practical. And better suited to those preferring to act like adults.

  • Ron McPherson

    You dumping the cranberry sauce in their lap was probably the last straw.

  • Herm

    I believe I know now how the eleven disciples felt when Barabbas won the election, popular and electoral, after three years of campaigning.

    I believe I will know this week what it was like for them to go back home suffering dis-grace before their families who voted against that lying Jesus.

  • gimpi1

    One thing I’ve found; if you host the gathering, you have more control. I’m lucky there, I’m a darn good cook. I can almost always volunteer to host, and get total agreement.

    As host, I set ground rules. No harassing of any guest. No overt controversy. No baiting. And, if anyone is being made too uncomfortable, as host, I reserve the right to insist on a change of topics. Everyone knows the rules, and they know if they overtly break them, they may be asked to leave. They will be embarrassed. No one else will support them, not because they don’t (necessarily) agree with them, but because we’ve all agreed on these rules to make the holidays pleasant, and the rules only work if everyone follows them.

    We all want to have a good time. No one wants to be insulted, picked on or made to feel unwelcome. I find setting a few boundaries makes this much more likely.

    I’ve had this policy called “political correctness.” In the past, acting like this was called “good manners.” Sadly,good manners are an old fashioned value that many folks who usually claim to treasure those don’t seem to care much for.

  • gimpi1

    Can I ask, how do you feel attacked?

  • RonnyTX

    RonM to Bones:
    You dumping the cranberry sauce in their lap was probably the last straw.

    Ronny to RonM:
    Good one! :-) LoL

  • RonnyTX

    Bob Shiloh:
    I get ask by family every year why I don’t believe Christ’s birthday is December 25th?

    Ronny to Bib:
    I remember times I’ve read about that; but, it’s been a long time ago. And I also don’t believe Jesus Christs’ birthday could of been December 25th. As best I remember, it’s much more likely, that it was sometime in the spring. But whenever it was, it was when the shepherds would be out, watching their flocks of sheep. And that being the middle of winter, just doesn’t make sense. But whenever it was, I’m just glad the angel told the shepherds, that the birth of Jesus Christ was good news and that for all people! :-)

  • RonnyTX

    Amen, to what both your and Artistree said!

  • Certainly. I get replies calling me every name foul in the book from several of the people on this blog.

  • Bones

    Maybe you should look at yourself instead of playing the victim.

    Most of us don’t appreciate you pharisaical self-righteous types who continually lie about others.

  • Bones

    Poor Bob.

    He loves calling others names but when someone calls him a name he sulks and has a cry.

    but this is a person who makes light of other people’s suffering.

  • RonnyTX

    I’ve had this policy called “political correctness.” In the past, acting like this was called “good manners.” Sadly,good manners are an old fashioned value that many folks who usually claim to treasure those don’t seem to care much for.

    Ronny to Gimpi1:
    It is kind of sad to me, when I see people, who don’t seem to know what good manners are. When I was young, I assumed everyone did. Or at least those, in my family. But then as I got older, I found out better. Including about some of those, in my own extended family! :-(

  • RonnyTX

    So timely. My wife and I had bemoaned this very thing just yesterday. We’ll keep our mouths shut while the Trumpsters crow ha

    Ronny to RonM:
    Ron, I’ve got to go check some of my kinfolks Facebook pages. I know some of them supported and voted for Trump; but the seldom if ever mentioned it, on their FB pages. Around 3 months ago, one cousins husband, he said he thought Trump was mentally ill and that he would never vote for him; but after Trump beat out Cruz- all of a sudden, he was all for Trump! (ha) :-)

  • Ron McPherson

    Naturally ha!

  • gimpi1

    I’m sorry to hear that. There’s no excuse for rudeness, ever.

    I think I know how you feel. I’ve been told that, as a non-believer, I can’t have any morals, that I’m totally corrupt. I’ve been called a baby-killer because I support reproductive rights. I’ve been called a race-traitor because I don’t support legalizing discrimination. I’ve had people suggest I pose for porn because I’ve said that I don’t censor my clients (I’m a graphic designer).

    I feel part of the problem is that when we hold our beliefs strongly, it becomes hard to understand that people can honestly disagree. I, for instance, can’t embrace any standard that permits any sort of discrimination or injustice. For others, it may be a standard based on the Bible – which, from where I sit, has lots of injustice

    It’s important to learn to disagree without being disagreeable. Let’s try to set an example, and hope it catches on?

  • gimpi1

    Since Bob didn’t make any self-righteous comments or call anyone names in his comment above, can I suggest you not lash out at him here?

    If he does, then responding in kind is more understandable. Since he didn’t, you come off as throwing the first stone.

    I understand you’re responding to what you feel is a history in his comments, but that history isn’t in the current conversation. By posting an unpleasant response to him for a reasonable comment, you can lose both credibility and the high ground. Does that make sense to you?

  • gimpi1

    That’s how I feel. In my family growing up, we all were pretty well-mannered – in part because some of us have bad tempers, and too much snark or controversy could lead to a bad place.

    I remember how surprised when, at my first family dinner with my now-husband’s family, how rude they were, picking on “outsiders” i.e. the spouses or dates of family members, launching into political diatribes and interrupting each other according to some sort of internal pecking order. Had we done that in my birth-family, we would have had to leave the cutlery off the table:-)

    I’ve never understood why people can’t treat their families with the basic respect they’d give a stranger sitting beside them on the bus. Those closest to us often get our worst behavior.

  • Thanks for a thoughtful reply. And Happy Thanksgiving!

  • gimpi1

    Happy Thanksgiving to you, too. I’ve already started the baking… Wow, I have a lot to do… Bye bye!

  • Ron McPherson

    I have a good family so it will be ok. But will probably still have to hear all the anti dem conspiracies again. Every year it’s been Obama is going to confiscate everyone’s guns, they think Hillary is a type of anti Christ, etc. I usually just smile and grit my teeth. Oh well, in spite of it all we love one another in our own way I suppose.

  • Ron McPherson

    Yeah its not so bad. I’m kinda used to it. I usually have my mouth full of turkey and stuffing anyway ha

  • Statistics Palin

    I have a shorter list.
    1) Don’t go home.
    2) Celebrate with friends.

  • Statistics Palin

    Silence of the Yams.

  • Bones

    May I Suggest you read his history.

    He’s been here for a while.

    he’s the one who comes on here throwing his crap around.

  • Glutton for punishment much? or are you one of those who must have something to be defensive against an order to have an identity?

  • Discussing the bible with others of a different view is stimulating. I have nothing to be defensive about.

  • Dear Bob near as I can tell I think you have a bad case cognitive dissonance. It’s going around this season like a plague! A blogging friend expressed this so well I shall share it with you:
    Trump is both a symptom of, and opportunistic exploiter of our collective crisis. His relationship to “the people” is parasitic.
    From our side of the equation, he has been “chosen” to carry a load of C-4 into town to blow the place up.
    Who gets blown up? Who cares at this point. It is like an auto immune disease. The state of imbalance is so systematic that the body attacks itself.
    Next step Civil War. After that, tyranny or anarchy.
    The White supremacy thing is admittedly a relative side show to the bigger picture of environmental degradation, resumed nuclear arms race, isolationism, and thuggish brutality that is immanent.
    There has to have been a better way to break down corruption and the metastasizing oligarchy.

  • The problem is that the Obama experiment failed badly. The media tried to cover for his failures by telling the people that everything he did was successful. But the people looking at 90 million unemployed were annoyed by the bragging about the unemployment rate. Although they accepted his first two big lies about Obamacare, when the third one became obvious and their $2500 savings became a $4000 cost it hit their pocketbook. Then the Democrats supported Hillary as a continuation of Obama and that was that. Although Obama is well liked personally that does not mean as we were told that his policies were liked. Quite the opposite.

    So while the author you quote may wish to hide in his bunker waiting for armageddon the majority of the country will be quite pleased as things change rapidly for the better.

    The only losers in this election are the progressive Democrats, the Media and the Republican elites. They have been exposed and now are in the death throws of denial pretty much thinking like your friend.

  • Bones

    Meh. ..

    I don’t seek out catholic websites to call them fools.

  • I’m glad to see someone like yourself, with operational cognitive dissonance and denial, come to a blog like this. Thank you, Bob, for sharing your life with us which is becoming a cautionary Tale. I appreciate the opportunity to witness first hand extreme mental illness of someone who has co-signed on to the b******* of a criminally insane demagogue and narcissist. Perhaps if you keep coming back you May repent the error of your ways and learn to appreciate a different point of view and receive a fresh wind that enters and cleanses the fetid atmosphere under your bell jar. Here’s another quote from a blogger I follow:
    “…Evangelical support for Trump was about nostalgia for a vision of society they feel slipping away, rather than Christian values.”
    James F McGrath
    Recently I heard a pundit say that “make America great again” is code for make America white again!

  • I would characterize your reply and those of other progressives on this site as so much galimatias; obdurate in the extreme.

    But you will now have eight years to complain, nag and console each other in your misery as President Elect Trump methodically unwinds most of the damage done during President Obama’s amateurish reign.The media will continue to try and destroy President Elect Trump but they have failed and will continue to fail. Their power has been blunted and their intentions revealed; PC is dead!

    This country knows that the divisive rhetoric of racism has spewed from the President as an election strategy to confuse black American and blind them to the fact that black America is worse off now than eight years ago in every way including a massive unemployment rate. It did not work. President Elect Trump surged to victory with a significant increase in the black vote. The one thing President Obama will regret about his presidency is that he did nothing for black America. Their income is down, unemployment is sky high, home ownership is down and their self esteem is further damaged as they realize they have been taken for a ride again; but no More!

  • Bob your post is deranged, demented, depraved, and demented! like your hero and savior Donald Trump you’re batshit crazy. However that doesn’t stop me from loving you. We Are All God’s Children every single billionth one of us weather we are billionaires or not. All are one in Christ and that includes you so keep coming back!

  • gimpi1

    That may well be. However, this comment was not objectionable.

    I believe in rewarding good behavior. If someone gets negative responses when they don’t say negative things, where is the incentive to not behave in a negative way?

    If you’re right, I’m sure you’ll have plenty of unpleasant comments to respond to in the future. Why not give someone a bit of grace when they’re being decent? Who knows, you might make more of an impression than by going on the offence no matter what was said.

  • Bones

    Yes there will be plenty of unpleasant comments in the future.

    That you can count on.

    This is one extremely unpleasant individual.

    You can hold his hand if you want.

  • MillyPierce

    I would really appreciate it if white people like you would stop trying to tell black people like me what our problems are. You have no idea what you are talking about and you are wrong. Just stop it.

  • First of all I am not trying to tell black people anything. But apparently many more black people figured it out and voted for President Elect Trump. If you are offended I am sorry.

  • MillyPierce

    Black voters as a whole voted 88% for Clinton and 8% for Trump. Black women voted 93% for Clinton and 4% for Trump. Black men voted 80% for Clinton and 13% for Trump. Like I said, you have no idea what you are talking about.

  • Martha Anne Underwood

    Great suggestions. Already used the redirect idea though not with family. My roommate and I who are liberal were with three friends for Thanksgiving, two are conservative. Got on some explosive topic and we all decided to talk about something else that did not divide us. Had a very good time.

  • And you think that was a good thing? Like I said the strategy of dividing the country by race, gender and age did not work for Hillary as it did for Obama. Black men seem to know something black women don’t. And why shouldn’t they? The Democrats have failed the black community in every particular. Democrats are now at the lowest point since the 1920’s in terms of legislatures, governors, congress and senators. They are a bi-coastal party at best.

    But now the country will see what a real leader can do to clean up this mess. Progressive liberal thought has been exposed for the world to see and may it never rise again.

  • Bones

    Nope…you’ll be wrong…as usual.

  • Ron McPherson

    How would you characterize the Bush years before Obama?

  • MillyPierce

    Are you really going to say that black women are ignorant, because that sure sounds like what you are inferring. I’m glad you voted for an unregistered sex offender. I’m very sure your God will be pleased with that when you are judged.

  • People vote or don’t vote as they will. Usually when something hits their pocketbook they get serious. This election for conservatives was not about black women; it was about illegal immigration, Obamacare and Jobs. Only progressive liberals perpetuate the fantasy that the election had something to do with race. Hillary’s strategy was all about division: race, gender and age. It did not work. But in the end you had two old white people running. Maybe more black men finally decide that Democrats had nothing for them.

    God was certainly involved. How else do you explain this wonderful victory? Even the Evangelicals voted for him.

    President elect Trump was not stopped by the elite media calling him names and ascribing to him all of the crimes that Hillary actually committed.

  • Not interested in going back otherwise I would write a book about the Obama years.

  • Nope? Is this suggestive of your writing skills or were you imbibing when you wrote this thoughtful comment?

  • MillyPierce

    Wow, you should really know what you are talking about before you start typing. It never hurts to be a little educated, it prevents sounding uneducated.

  • Well myself and half of the voters don’t agree with you….

  • MillyPierce

    Again, you don’t know what you are talking about. Hillary Clinton has 2 million more votes than Donald Trump and they haven’t finished counting all the ballots yet. She won the popular vote, he’s only president-elect because of the electoral college. http://www.snopes.com/2016/11/13/who-won-the-popular-vote/

  • Ron McPherson

    I just think it’s funny when those who blast the Obama and Clinton years fail to acknowledge the problems from the Bush years. In reality, the President seems to have far less influence than what many credit him for. There are way too many dynamics at work to realistically believe that that office can ‘fix’ everything. It just seems naive to believe Trump will somehow overthrow Washington in favor of anti-establishment republicanism.

  • MillyPierce

    That was actually Jill Stein trying to raise money. She was trying to raise $2 million and raised $1 million the first day. As far as I know Hillary isn’t trying to get a recount or anything, but I could be wrong.

  • Bones

    Just pointing out your stupidity.

    If you think your messiah is the end of liberalism then you are retarded.

  • Bones

    Only one person has divided your country over race.

    That is your messiah.

    you are going to to be sorely disappointed in your messiah.
    And you’ve been bitching and whinging for the past 8 years since bush screwed your country.

  • Bones

    Lol…short memory..

    no doubt you were dancing on the grave of liberalism back then too.

  • Now who doesn’t know what they are talking about….

  • Bones

    Bernie Would Have Slaughtered trump

    so much for the end of the left and liberalism

  • Trump will attempt to implement his campaign promises. Some are as simple as writing an executive order to repeal a lawless order. Others like Obamacare and the Wall will get congressional support. Watch and see how Trump convinces some Democrats to join with him. If Obama had just done that he would not have crippled his presidency during the first two years.

  • Ron McPherson

    “Trump will attempt to implement his campaign promises.”

    Well he’s already backed off of some of them before he’s even taken the oath of office.

  • Plenty of time to see if that is true. Congress will continue to investigate the Clinton Global Initiative and they have said so. Trump will not try to stop them and that I believe is his strategy. Focus on his promises not campaign rhetoric.

  • “So while the author you quote may wish to hide in his bunker waiting for armageddon the majority of the country will be quite pleased as things change rapidly for the better.”

    Not hiding in a bunker. Rather, brought to full attention as your definition of “things changing rapidly for the better” unfolds!

    Do you remember the 60’s? Painful times all around, but much good also came from it. Though certainly not what the likes of Nixon were expecting.

    Betrayal of the collective integrity will galvanize the next generation. Since theirs will be the biggest price paid for this Huuggghhly self indulgent blunder.

  • “It just seems naive to believe Trump will somehow overthrow Washington in favor of anti-establishment republicanism.”

    Not without a coup. Remember how many generals he bragged were supporting him? And what just happened to the GOP?

    Liberals and intellectuals (codeword: PC) have been demonized. They are rabidly deemed the “enemy” without the least comprehension of the essential counter balance needed for a healthy democracy. Not that Trump cares one way or the other about “Liberals and intellectuals”. He just knew what would work to motivate his minions.

  • With the Elite Media there will be no shortage of negative articles about the new administration. They are in shock at Trump’s victory and will soon explode against him as they try to regain their power to destroy those who do not agree with their progressive ideas. However, it will not work in this case as has been demonstrated continuously. There true motivation has been exposed by their hatred of one man who dared to challenge them.

    The “collective integrity”, as you state it is blurred at the moment but the Red states vastly outnumber the Blue states and the Red states simply want less government control not more. The next generation is composed of many disparate groups but the word “galvanize” is out of the vocabulary range of most of them.

    I remember the 60″s and it was not painful at all to me. I was a teenager at the beginning and could have cared less about politics or world events. I had fun and enjoyed my life in this greatest country on God’s green earth without any serious worries about my future. Quite a contrast with the world today. But we now have hope as President Elect Trump will turn Washington on it’s ear and flush the massive corruption and self-dealing down the drain. The world will respect us again and most of the problems we are facing will abate. Did you not see what happened when Reagan replaced Carter? Everything changed for the better and quickly.

  • MillyPierce

    Actually that would still be you, see I like to provide links so that people like you can see where I get my information from. Snopes is a very good resource because it is non-partisan. So if you are going to accuse me of not knowing what I’m talking about, please provide links to prove your information. InfoWars does not count as a reliable source.

  • kaydenpat

    Great tips. Thankfully my family and friends are liberals/progressives so there is no drama at gatherings. I can’t imagine having to interact so closely with people who want to fight with you over politics or religion. Sounds nauseating.

  • Sorry Milly. I was referring to the fact that the US is a democratic republic and the electoral college is the method by which we choose the President. The fact that Hillary received more total votes is immaterial to the outcome. This is the way the founders designed our government. This is the way the candidates campaigned. If you look at the electoral map you will see why Trump won.

  • “I remember the 60″s and it was not painful at all to me. I was a teenager at the beginning and could have cared less about politics or world events. I had fun and enjoyed my life in this greatest country on God’s green earth without any serious worries about my future.”

    The amazing thing is that you said that without a seconds hesitation or reflection.

    Not going to bother running the synopsis past you. Be a major waste of time.

  • otrotierra

    Bob Shiloh won’t provide proof because no proof exists. He only has his false witness to spread and hide behind.

  • Phil Feeley

    Unfortunately, in our family, it’s gotten to the point that those who disagree with one another refuse to be in the same house with each other. We don’t expect this to be healed anytime soon. But at least, those who remain together can enjoy each other’s company.

  • MillyPierce

    Is it because racist white people like you who are terrified of losing their country to people of color voted for him? Or racist and sexist white evangelical voters who think he is going to get a Supreme Court to overturn Roe v Wade voted him in? I think it’s both. Funny how if Hillary had won the electoral college you’d be crying that somehow the vote was rigged, but Trump got it and you’re just one happy white camper!

  • RonnyTX

    Unfortunately, in our family, it’s gotten to the point that those who disagree with one another refuse to be in the same house with each other. We don’t expect this to be healed anytime soon. But at least, those who remain together can enjoy each other’s company.

    Ronny to PhilF:
    That is sad, when family is that way! :-( And I’ve certainly got some hardheaded people, in my own family! (ha) One older brother who is a Calvinist Sunday School teacher,my oldest sister who is Arminian/free will in belief and myself and I’m a believer now in universal salvation, by way of Jesus Christ and the cross. But all of us, plus brothers wife, we usually get together at least twice a week, for a good meal and dominoes/42. :-) We just don’t talk, about our disagreements on somethings.

  • RonnyTX

    Bob Shiloh to brmckay:
    But we now have hope as President Elect Trump will turn Washington on it’s ear and flush the massive corruption and self-dealing down the drain. The world will respect us again and most of the problems we are facing will abate. Did you not see what happened when Reagan replaced Carter? Everything changed for the better and quickly.

    Ronny to BobS:
    Oh boy! Agree with him or not, Reagan was a friendly like kind of guy and I see none of that, in Donald Trump!

  • Milly,

    I am not racist. Most people are not racist. Democrats have caused this division in our country.

    The Court will not overturn Roe anytime soon.

    This election was not about race it was about immigration, jobs and security. Hillary is a cheater and cheaters don’t win and she did not win.

  • JD

    “I am not racist. Most people are not racist. “

    Nah. You just hate democrats.

  • Herm

    Bob, Millly is much more correct in her assessment than you.


    What in the hell does Roe and Gay civil marriage have to do with the “christian” vote?

    All of the immigration, jobs and security was tainted with race/religion other solutions.

    Hillary was the most competent politician (which in a nation of 350 million is a profession not a hobby) who was being smeared for 30 years. Hillary was under the close scrutiny spotlight for all those years and not one partisan claim of criminality was proven substantial, not one.

    Donald, on the other hand, has been proven to have done everything he claimed crooked Hillary did. He made all sources of balanced reporting impotent by calling them all evil liars, when they disagreed with him. He is not pursuing putting Hillary in jail because he knew and knows there never was a legal case to do so.

    You have been lied to if you are convinced you did not vote for a racist platform.

    Democrats were not the our way or no way obstructionist congress for the last eight years. Democrats, with all their human flaws, tried over and over again to find compromise that were all rejected. Republicans would do nothing to tweak Obamacare only because it was not Republicancare. It took five years of tweaking Social Security and Medicare before each was constructive for the entire nation. Each needs tweaking every year as does any family’s budget but the Republican congress has done nothing to either for eight years, the House holds the purse strings.

    Oh, I could go on and on pointing out where you are wrong according to the facts and not the propaganda you cite.

    Bob, ignorance still has its consequences as you are applying yours.

  • I loathe progressive liberals not democrats.

  • JD

    Correction then. You hate two groups of folks instead of one.

    Unless you hate non-Christians as well…?

  • JD

    Yet that’s the cornerstone of Christianity; poking and prodding proselytizing, yes?

    After all, true Christians are republicans. All others folks such as democrats and non-Christians are of the devil, lost, hellbound. etc…

  • MillyPierce

    You voted for a racist that makes you a racist. I know you don’t like to hear that, but I only tell the truth. You can’t vote for a racist and then say I’m not racist. He’s not going to bring those manufacturing jobs back, this country wouldn’t work without the hard work of immigrants, and he knows nothing about national security to make this country any safer. You voted for him because you liked the racist dog whistles he blew throughout his campaign.

  • MillyPierce

    That’s very true! Hmm I wonder what the bible has to say about bearing false witness…I’m sure it’s in those commandments they like to ignore!

  • Herm

    Tell me Bob why do you feel such an intense disgust for progressive liberals? You don’t feel Christ was offering progress, that He was teaching liberality in turning the other cheek or His sacrifices for others who would crucify Him was progressively liberal? You would actually go back to the 1930’s (Steve Bannon’s objective) or back to the Pharisaical system before the Messiah?

    Bob, all that you have, beginning with the earth and its environments, were liberally graced you by God and yet in your stewardship you would deny others because they didn’t earn it like you or your church. You know, probably, that disgusts me from someone who thinks he is being taught by Jesus.

    Why don’t you start out by becoming in the example of the “Good Samaritan”, as a true neighbor before you claim you know the will of God. Jesus is real and available to teach you as He does me to be liberal and progressive in all you do, as all little Christs do.

    I love my enemies but I cannot condone or support your self centered loathing, neither does Jesus Christ. Grace is liberally free and without merit from all children of God.

  • Herm

    Eva, I took the time to prod and poke all those I loved most in my life who I was mature and educated enough to know they were being destructive, like my children and my less mature siblings. Divine love is picking up your cross and coming as a sword from the mouth to divide the constructive and productive progressive liberal eternal relationships who accept God’s grace from the destructive frugal conservatives choosing to dictate others, not like them, back to the good old days when all was right with the god they know only as their birth family and church.

    Why do you insist that a lover must be warm and fuzzy according to your definition of warm and fuzzy?

  • Herm

    Eva, you just wrote …”it doesn’t change peoples opinions, it just serves to divide (take it from someone who has made that mistake).

    Jesus says,

    “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn

    “ ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

    Matthew 10:34-36

  • Herm

    Eva, do you not see that you are not putting all scripture quoting Jesus together??? Dividing the disagreeable from the agreeable to our heavenly Father’s will is what all children of God do out of love and not out of hate. You are dividing God you like from God you don’t like, the God that disagrees with your birth family’s and church’s traditions.

    “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

    Matthew 10:37-39

    “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

    Matthew 10:32-33

  • JD

    “But, calling people haters isn’t going to help anyone”

    Didnt see you correct Bob with his “loathe” for liberals…

  • Not hate, rather loathe progressive liberals. Loathe is similar but stronger.

  • I voted for Donald Trump as did 62 million other people in the US. When you say what he is not going to do what is the basis of that statement other than opinion? In my opinion Trump is not a racist.

  • Hillary was the most corrupt politician to ever run for high office.
    She lied to the FBI about not sending or receiving classified material and the Director is on record saying that she lied. She should have been punished for that as others have been like General Petraeus.
    The Congress and the Justice Dept will decide Hillary’s fate. Not the President’s job.
    Democrats voted lock step for Obamacare with one Republican vote and thereby crippled Obama’s presidency. Now his signature legislation is about dead and has to be rescued. He was a fool to do it that way and he is and will be punished for that.
    Talk about ignorance. But remember this: you lost and we won.

  • First because progressive liberals condone baby killing. Second because they hate the country they live in. Christ has spoken of these types when he said “I don’t know you.” Turning the other check and pulling off the head of an infant with forceps can hardly be compared. Your opinion of what I have been taught is just like my opinion of your various comments – an opinion. If you love your enemies tell me what you have done for them so I can understand if your comment is genuine or self-serving?

  • MillyPierce
  • Miley,

    The Daily Beast
    Huffington Post

    are not credible sources. They are simply left wing propaganda machines operating as legitimate news organizations.

    The protesters at Trump rallies, for example, were paid for by the Democratic National Committee to disrupt and create the violence that was then reported. This was exposed and is on video. It was all part of Campaign as usual by the Democrats.

    If you think Trump is racist that again is you opinion. You have no facts to back that up other than “news stories” published by disreputable sources. Fortunately not one of these stories derailed Trump. It drove the Media crazy and will for the next four years.

    Exactly why it is that the Gold Star father was put on TV to attack Trump? Because they thought that Trump would not have the courage to discredit him. Wrong again. When people go on TV to spout political opinions and then the Media says the replies is racist because the man was Muslim – that’s just naive. He was put on TV just because he was Muslim and for no other reason.

  • MillyPierce

    So you mistrust the media just like racist Donald Trump told you to. You believe conspiracy theories just like racist Donald Trump told you to. I have no more time for you. You are a racist, you are a low information, uneducated voter. You are exactly the type of racist idiot Donald Trump wants you to be.

  • Herm

    Bob, your lynch mob mentality is showing. Follow me here:

    #1 Benghazi was not State Department and the Secretary of State Clinton shouldn’t have been under partisan congressional investigation to the tune of 10 million tax dollars.

    #2 Using the Clinton private server was not illegal because it was a department rule that could have been a cause for firing but not a fine or imprisonment at the President’s discretion. But that issue came as a spin off from the fishing trip we call Benghazi. Not to mention the State Department server, not the fault of the Secretary of State, was hacked with all the classified emails when the Clinton server was not.

    #3 The FBI was called in to investigate whether there was any intentional release of classified material. Comey stated there was no proof though Hillary was careless and then came back and opened the issue, with no resulting proof contrary, in the middle of voting.

    #4 Comey, as an investigative officer, had no business calling anyone publicly a liar, or even careless, without a court decision.

    #5 General Petraeus actually shared classified documents with a reporter.

    An “obstructionist” congress crippled Obama’s presidency. The Republican congress has gone down in history as the most do nothing congress ever.

    President Obama has had no support from congress including their refusing to take their constitutional responsibility for the wars we’re in today.

    Our nation lost due to ignorance such as yours. Thank you for giving me a time and place to share some real facts.

  • And you have finally gravitated to the juvenile level of name calling so prevalent on this site. If I am a racist what does that make you?

  • MillyPierce

    It makes me wary of people like you.

  • Herm

    You don’t know how much I want to express how lacking your argument is of real facts. No progressive liberal wants babies killed, none. Before Roe versus Wade there were actually more abortions and miscarriages and far more injuries and deaths of pregnant mothers. The Planned Parenthood budget is only 3% (none paid for by taxes) for abortions and 97% for actual care and counseling for women.

    “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    Matthew 7:21-23

    Please, understand that Roe versus Wade, with open counselling sharing responsible alternatives, is so much more loving and our heavenly Father’s will than a civil law against all abortions and contraceptives. God cares so much more for all souls than any carnal birth. The evil doers are the church leaders who struggled to maintain their membership through over population at any cost by speaking for God without knowing God, only their study of God, theology. No where does Jesus or our heavenly Father speak then or today against contraceptives or abortions.

    I wish that I could share with you how many sick and dying I have held in my arms in the past 72 years. I have been in prison ministries only to help those who only knew to kill my kind to support themselves and theirs. I am taking my time to share with you in hopes that you come to find Jesus in your heart and mind, also. Because you defend your traditions rather than trusting to give yourself (heart, soul, strength and mind) over to God that you may live under Their grace eternally you are an enemy. At this point Jesus says He does not know you.

    You really think this is about who of us is most correct to be decided in our control by debate. What this is all about is the life of each of our souls because this carnal debate will cease no matter who we decide won the debate. This is real and yet you play a game founded only on the evolving logical traditions and counsel of your human peers when in your midst is the only Teacher who can show you the way to live. The Bible points to Him and the Spirit of truth and yet you don’t go Their way. I am not telling you to believe me but to go to Him. If you cannot trust Him to teach you truth, provide all you need on this earth, and take you into eternal life with Him then you are wasting your time debating here among those who know Him.

  • Herm

    That makes Milly a good judge of character. :-) … who loves you enough to be honest and upfront with you.

  • JD

    Abortion is here to stay. Get over it.

    I dont think liberals hate this country. I think; like many; they’re just not happy where its going.

    Now with Trump soon be in charge, it’s not going to get much better for awhile…

  • #1 Then she should not have lied to us about the video.
    #2 Private Server – no one else has ever done- still the issue is sending/receiving Classified Data on a Private Server – and she did.
    #3 The FBI decided to investigate her on their own. They did and they reported. This was a self-inflicted wound.
    #4 He stated facts that contradicted her public statements – aka Lies.
    #5 So did Hillary with anyone who read her emailed Classified Documents – only she did not get punished – yet.
    This all has been discussed over and over – but the Public aka Voters did not agree with you did they?
    My ignorance resulted in one vote – thank God Almighty there were 62 million other ignorant voters.

  • As I said, in that day many Liberals will try to tell the Lord how Planed Parenthood was done in His name – but the result will not be pleasant for them and those that defend them.

  • And yet 76% of the people think the country is “on the wrong track.” Many of them are Liberals. They will all be happy because it could not get much worse.

  • Herm

    Did you just threaten “them and those”? By whose authority beyond your own logic and tradition do you presume to mete out “the result will not be pleasant”?

    You simply do not know the Lord or our Spirit of truth.

  • Herm

    You can count me in the 64.2 million educated voters who selected Hillary Clinton for President of the United States of America. Bob, you are flailing with no facts beyond your biased hear say. We haven’t even begun on the faults and sins of Donald Trump with no political skills what-so-ever.

    Hitler and Lenin were elected by more of a popular majority than what elected Trump in the electoral college.

  • JD

    It’s a good thing mythology; and that includes Christianity; has no bearing on the laws of this land.

    Dont believe in abortion? Then dont have one.

    However, you dont get to restrict others access to abortion.


  • I know that God expects us to keep the Commandments and killing babies is what thou shalt not kill is all about. I speak with the authority of the Scriptures that were given to all but few, like yourself, follow.

  • So now Trump is like Hitler and Lenin? Whose uneducated opinion do you quote?

  • The United States is a Judeo/Christian country – something that escapes the broad intellect of the Liberals.

  • JD

    Spoken like a republican. And wrong.

  • JD

    Ah, another self-professed prophet. That’s like, what, the fourth one this month. ..?

  • JD

    You know, Bob, when you think about it; with affordable healthcare, safe and legal access to abortion and reproductive services, and marriage equality; you could say this is a more christ-like country….

  • Herm

    Bob, truly you know virtually no history. Read up on the rise of Stalin and then compare that political positioning to Stephen Bannon. You apparently didn’t read the article I shared with you earlier:


    Read it and learn a little. You voted, you might as well find out now what you voted for.

  • Herm

    Who told you that? You don’t know the Word of God. You don’t now the Spirit of truth. You only know of them by the scriptures that have no authority without Them. Ask, seek and knock and it will be given you. You can’t ask, seek or knock the Bible which is only a pointer, you refuse to follow, to They who have the authority to give it to you. Your church and all theology cannot give it to you.

    You flail and flail but you refuse to go to God in all humility and totally separated from allegiance to your logic, common sense, family traditions and religious traditions.

    If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

    Luke 14:26-27

    By your fruit you are a disciple of disciples of religion. I am a disciple of the Teacher who knows by experience and not by theory.

    I don’t like killing of anything or anyone which is why I am progressive and liberal as is my Lord God. I love all of mankind as much as any one baby which is why I vote for counseling, tolerance, compassion, and empathy for the mother, father, and supporting community with equally as much love for all as I do the baby. You seem to think only the baby is worthy of saving more so than an educated and experienced mother when I see them as equally worthy of my love and concern.

    You don’t know what thou shalt not kill is all about.

  • Bones

    Meh this is the same god who gave instructions to priests on how to abort babies in Numbers 5.

  • Bones

    Hitler hated the Liberals as well…

    All conservative ideologues do…they are threatened by them.

  • Bones

    “killing babies is what thou shalt not kill is all about. ”


    Numbers 5

    20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband’– 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse – ‘may the Lord cause you to become a curse[d] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.’

    Moses invents the morning after pill….

  • Bones

    Loathe = hate….

    Oh we know you hate us….

    That’s why you hang around…

  • Bones

    He doesn’t need any prodding or poking.

    The bad smell hangs around here for a reason.

    Good to see you defending his hatred of liberals though.

  • Bones

    You better direct that to Bob….

    He hates us remember….

  • Bones

    I wonder what sort of a Jesus these people know…..

    Certainly not the one from the gospels….

  • Bones

    Seemed to be ok for the Israelites to kill the unborn.

    They certainly weren’t pro-life.

  • Bones

    That’s me…and Jesus…..

    Good to know you hate us dude….

    But I already knew that.

  • Only from an incorrect perspective could one begin to imagine this country is becoming more Christlike. Do you not know that the Affordable Healthcare Act is not affordable? Reproductive services to make sure that baby parts can be sold to the highest bidder?

  • I do know the word of God and much more than you do. If the subject is abortion you failed that test also. Why don’t you educate us on the commandments and explain how Love negates them?

  • Did they let you out of the hospital again?

  • Bones

    You mean as much as you love anyone here….



  • Bones

    More lies…..

    Since when is Christ interested in economics….

  • Bones


    You’ve placed your country above the kingdom of God.

  • Bones

    Numbers 5….Bob….

    Tell us how Moses gave instructions to kill the unborn.

  • Bones

    Well given that abortions were committed by Israel under the orders of both God and Moses that would place Planned Parenthood in good company.

    You almost make me wish there was a judgement.

    It would be the Pharisaical self-righteous liars like yourself who would go down.

  • Bones

    That would be you Bob.

    What sort of a psychopath hangs around those they hate.

    Says a lot about your life and mentality actually.

    You really are a lying degenerate who has found joy in the election of his messiah which has spurred you on.

    Why don’t you right wing dickheads f*ck off and leave people alone.

  • Bones

    Then you hate Moses and God….

  • Bones

    Yep…the little twofaced lapdog who starts dancing when her right wing friends come.

    You aren’t any different from Bob.

    Heck at least he’s honest about his hatred of progressives and liberals.

  • Bones

    If you haven’t noticed I ain’t playing any victim….

    You people want to come on here and stir shit….you’ll reap what you sow.

  • Reading is an intellectual skill which most normal people have. I see this skill has eluded you. Exactly where in these verses does it say the drink was induced to cause an abortion?

    As you have repeatedly commented you do not believe in the Old Testament, so why do you presume to use it as proof of anything?

    Do you have anything interesting to say as none of these comments you are hijacking were directed at you. If not go find other comments to reply to.

  • Herm

    Bob, you do not know this Word of God:

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

    There was a man sent from God whose name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

    The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    John 1:1-14

    “If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    John 14:15-21

    Bob, carnal life dies, early in the womb and late no later than 120 years (biblical). God causes none to die but our heavenly Father allowed His only begotten Son to die that we might be saved. We are saved to inherit eternal spiritual life (mankind was graced in the image of God) determined by Luke 10:25-37. Babies are no more I important than the children we send overseas to die for our nation, or the mothers who die in child birth, or the mothers forced to bear a child from rape or incest, or a lot of others who die before their eternal time. Life is triage and love with grief balances our decisions as supporters of life.

    No, Bob, you don’t even know your scriptures without guides of mankind sufficient to know the Guide, the Holy Spirit, who speaks only what you say to God and what God says to you. I have this chance, go to Them and not your theology, your study of religion.

  • JD

    I know folks who are alive because of affordable health care.

    As for baby parts, you really need to turn off Faux News and get a real education.

  • JD

    The god of the bible had no problems with infanticide and whole scale genocide…

  • Bones

    As usual you know jack about anything.

    Numbers 5
    21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[d] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

    Go back to whichever miserable hole you crawled out from.

  • Being your intellectual superior and one who actually understands the bible I can happily tell you that you appear to know nothing about most things including these versus. The word “miscarry” is not in any other bible translation so your proffer has amounted to nothing – it vanishes like a wisp of smoke in the breeze. Too bad you can’t blow away.

  • Bones

    You’re superior in nothing derp except for being a self-righteous hateful knob who hangs around here throwing all sorts of shit.

    The NIV got this right.

    Wood ash and water make lye which is sodium hydroxide….an ancient aborticide….and it would cause serious internal injuries.

    So the ‘dust’ would very well depend upon how much ash was in it. And this was in the temple.

    Of course other versions talk about the uterus dropping….which would kill the foetus inside.

    Or we could look at other stories such as the slaughter of the Canaanites including no doubt pregnant women and tamar who was to be burned alive with her unborn.

    Jewish belief was that a baby wasn’t a person until it was 30 days old.

    You lose….again….

  • Herm

    here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the LORD cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.” “ ‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”

    Numbers 5:21-22 (NIV2011)

    Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell; And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.

    Numbers 5:21-22 (KJV)

    Hebrew Strong’s Number: 990
    Hebrew Word: ‏בֶּטֶן‎
    Transliteration: beṭen
    Phonetic Pronunciation:beh’-ten
    Root: from an unused root probably meaning to be hollow
    Cross Reference: TWOT – 236a
    Part of Speech: n f
    Vine’s Words: None
    Usage Notes:
    English Words used in KJV:
    belly 30
    womb 31
    body 8
    within 2
    born 1
    [Total Count: 72]
    from an unused root probably meaning to be hollow; the belly, especially the womb; also the bosom or body of anything :- belly, body, + as they be born, + within, womb.
    Strong’s Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

  • Herm

    The Bible is not the word of God in any fashion. It is an expose of Man’s relationship with God beginning in the Fertile Crescent. The only Word of God available to us all is the Messiah through the Spirit of truth. You, Bob, are worshiping as hallowed a script of testimony from the hand of Man not the heart and mind of God.

    “If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    John 14:15-21

    Many here have tried hard to point you in the Way. It is only by your hardened heart and mind that you remain orphaned from God. You do not accept, see or know the Spirit of truth. You do not trust God enough to put your life in Their care as a very little ignorant child of God.

  • The bible is most certainly the inspired Word of God. The bible plainly states that the bible is not subject to private interpretation which you seem to be implying. It was inspired by the Spirit of God not from the hand of man. Your verse is interesting. You quote the bible and the commandments but you don’t believe in them.

    Who has tried to point me anywhere? The “their” you mention are all lawless “Christians” hardly to be trusted.

  • Just for clarity, you don’t usually get attacked here because religion is a controversial topic. You usually get attacked here because your views have all the cogency of a drunken clown with his pants full of bees.

    I do not agree with Ben on everything. Maybe if we sat down, we might even find rather large swaths of theological areas where we disagree. But Ben’s views are thoughtful and cogent and take the Bible seriously. Those are qualities largely absent from what you bring to the table.

  • JD

    “The bible plainly states that the bible is not subject to private interpretation which you seem to be implying.”

    Deuteronomy 4:2

    2 You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.

    Which means the entire New Testament; which includes all references to the concept of a demi-god named Jesus; must be discarded.

    So says your deity, your god.

  • I would say your responses show all the earmarks of a juvenile with a communication deficiency. Your analogy is painfully immature and not to the point. Your insults are unprovoked as to this topic and unprofessional for a man of your advance age.

    Ben does not believe in the inerrancy of the OT and so your statement is incorrect. One can take something seriously and Ben should because he will be judged by his own words.

  • Herm

    Bob, that is a bunch of bullshit.

    You don’t even read to comprehend the Bible. You don’t even call the Holy Spirit to counsel for you. You serve to please those of Man who you know but not your creator God who you do not know. Go directly to God, such as addressing your heavenly Father, and give your heart and mind fully to be protected, provided for and taught. If He does not answer you then you worship a dead God. I have, after 30 years of study and practice in theology, and only then did I find God was real and not some exercise in debate.

    You, until you accept the Spirit of truth to fill your heart and mind to the exclusion of your teachers of Man, will continue to be over your head.

    Where in the hell do you get this “lawless “Christians”” routine? The people who take the time to talk with you here who are in God hurt for you and those you persecute, really. They are not challenged to know God for they are in God. It is you who are without.

    What can you possibly mean by “Your verse is interesting” except that you don’t understand it because you do not see or know the Spirit of truth?

    I am “plainly” stating that I have accepted fully to see and know the Spirit of truth and what I am telling you is not subject to private interpretation. I am not only inspired, right or wrong (as were many Bible writers/editors), by the Spirit of God I am in Jesus and Jesus is in me as children of God. How do you know an authority for certain except by actual tried and true relationship? You may have that relationship with the scraps of scripture you hold so dear but you certainly don’t have that relationship with the only One Teacher who knows the truth.

  • I think you must be very confused. That verse, among other things, warns people who preach to be careful and not add their own pet theories or try to lessen the meaning.

    Please explain how you get to that conclusion if you can.

  • Herm

    Bob, you might find these verses interesting, also:

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

    There was a man sent from God whose name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

    He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

    The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”)

    Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

    John 1:1-18

    You are not a child of God because by your own admission you clearly have not received the Messiah as the Word, the only Word of God.

  • Ben’s views of “inerrancy” demonstrate that he has done a lot of hard work. He does this because he loves the Bible and takes it seriously. Your view of “inerrancy” is parroting abstractions that have been handed down to you that do not, and by definition CAN NOT, come from the Bible.

    You, in effect, proclaim what the Bible has to be on the basis of what other people have taught you. Ben, by contrast, takes the Bible for what it is. It’s very clear to me and to most of the people who read through these things which one of you actually takes the Bible seriously.

    There is a huge difference between taking the Bible seriously and regurgitating doctrinal statements about its inerrancy. People who care about the Bible take it on its own terms. You don’t, and the propositions you produce in these discussions show it. Wild, chaotic melanges of quotes that have no respect for their history or usage in situ, as if the biblical text were holy and inspired refrigerator magnets. Just because you believe the Bible is “inerrant” doesn’t mean you take it seriously. In fact, it highly suggests you have a very surfacey acquaintance with it.

  • JD

    Dont know why your having difficulty with your deity’s supposed own words. It’s self explanatory.

    Dont like it? Tell your deity. See how well that goes.

  • Herm, you have no special understanding of the bible. You don’t know the Spirit as well as you think you do. It is obvious from your answers. How can you have a reltaionship with God when you reject his words? You can’t and you don’t. You have fully accepted what you want to believe and can’t even communicate what that is…

  • Herm. Get serious.
    You and I are the only two people on this site who believe that the Word was the Lord God of the Old Testament. He gave up his deity to become flesh and died for our sins so we could be reconciled with God.
    You receive God’s spirit through Baptism and not self declaration.

  • Herm

    No Bob, Jesus was not the Lord God of the Old Testament. Jesus was, according to the gospel of John, the Word in the beginning and in the flesh, as He is today in the Spirit.

    The “Lord God” used in the Old Testament was Levite priests usurping the authority of God according to their logic that was clearly not according to the heart and mind of God.

    Bob, God knows all including the Fertile Crescent from whence came the story of Cain and Able. Moses did not!

    God doesn’t demand little ignorant children, no more than 120 years old compared to Their no beginning and no end, to be reconciled. Jesus saved us by example, much different than the example of God set in the Old Testament, to become children of God to inherit eternal life if only we abide by the law of Luke 10:27 (which is like the Decalogue written by the hand of God), not the law set down by tit for tat priests. God already gave us all, good and evil alike, all we need by Their grace that we could never earn on our own.

    Bob, it is time you got serious. The word “baptized” means to be filled. Jesus was baptized by John through immersion but was not baptized by the Holy Spirit until the Dove landed upon Him.

    I have been filled by the Holy Spirit, 38 years after I was sprinkled and 28 years after I was immersed, to find what it is truly like being in Jesus and Jesus in me. Prior to my being completely filled, heart and mind, with the Spirit of truth I worked hard at the theology of God, much greater than you boast, with seminary, deaconships, elderships, prison ministries and working wherever I felt God would send me. That was all beneficial to my strengthening in the Lord but I did not know the Teacher. I do now.

    Is that serious enough for you?

  • Herm

    What can I do when you won’t even try to understand from the scriptures that you shine on as just “interesting”?

  • In Genesis you find two beings as you pointed out: one was God and the other was the Word. The Word was with God and the Word was God. The Word was the God who interacted with man on earth. The translators called him the Lord God. He was not a Levite priest. This being later came to dwell on earth with us as the Word made flesh and he was called Jesus. He died for our sins and returned to heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father where He is at present until He returns to judge the world.

    Glad to learn about your service. What church did you or do you belong to?

  • It’s very simple. Try responding on point and quit the bloviating. You have now sent four replies without waiting for an answer. Some of us still work.

  • Obamacare throttled the economy and ruined Obama’s presidency. Now it has failed on its own without a Republican touching it.

    The eleventh video release from The Center for Medical Progress in the ongoing Planned Parenthood baby parts scandal shows the abortion doctor for Planned Parenthood in Austin, Texas. Amna Dermish is caught on tape describing a partial-birth abortion procedure to terminate living, late-term unborn babies which she hopes will yield intact fetal heads for brain harvesting.

    Fox News is the number one cable news network in the world! You are watching partisan news by NBC, CNN, MSNBC, etc. Ratings don’t lie only people lie.

  • Herm

    Well Bob, I was addressing chapter four relative to the Fertile Crescent. We don’t know how many of God were in the beginning, before Man. We only know according to Genesis chapter one that there was God, that the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters, and that God was not singular but plural (as in “us” and “our”) who created the plurality of mankind in Their image. Just as we don’t know how many children of God there are today born of the Spirit.

    No Bob, all the times the “Lord God” decreed anything were no more than the Vatican or any minister today decreeing the “Lord God” said. Jesus refuted nearly all either by example or by directly saying it was not God speaking. Now, if you take the apostle Paul that might be a different thing entirely for he definitely contradicted Jesus, the only High Priest in the order of Melchizedek with all authority over heaven and on earth.

    Please read this inviting the Holy Spirit for counsel, please:

    “If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    John 14:15-21

    What about, “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you” is so difficult to understand? Do you really believe we were left 1,983 years ago until the Christ returns to earth to judge the world? God is right here in your midst and you suffer with a 1,691 year old document as the only Way to know God. You do realize that the Torah was less than 1,250 years old when Jesus was physically on Earth, don’t you? You do realize God is only spirit and not carnal which makes the image of God in mankind spirit, don’t you?

    Jesus had much more to say that could not be shared in three years of ministry:

    “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

    John 16:12-15

    For your sake go to the Spirit!

  • Herm

    Bob, I have only responded once to each of your comments. Nothing I have said was empty. Read the scriptures and answer to your self the significance.

  • Bones


    New Anti-Choice Video Attempts, And Fails, To Smear Texas Planned Parenthood

    The Center for Medical Progress attempted to smear Planned Parenthood of Greater Texas by releasing a new undercover video that it falsely claims shows a clinic doctor discussing how she might conduct illegal abortion procedures for “harvesting intact fetal heads,” and affirming a price for the specimens. But experts say the procedures she describes are legal, the footage actually reveals that the doctor specifically said she does not do fetal tissue donations at her clinic, and the undercover actors are the only ones who discuss procedure costs.

    Medical Experts: Planned Parenthood Doctor’s Description Of Abortion Procedure Isn’t “In Any Way Representative Of A Banned Procedure.” The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists said it reviewed CMP’s latest video and did not agree that the abortion procedure described resembled an illegal abortion method, which CMP referred to as “Partial-Birth Abortion.” The procedure described on the secretly-recorded video is instead “consistent with a standard dilation and evacuation” performed for legal abortions. From the Dallas Morning News (emphasis added):

    Texas Planned Parenthood Doctor Says She Doesn’t Do Fetal Tissue Donation At Her Facility. In the video, the Planned Parenthood doctor says she hasn’t ever donated fetal tissue for research while working at the Texas Planned Parenthood clinic (emphasis added):

    CMP ACTOR: Have you guys provided any specimens for research ever?

    PLANNED PARENTHOOD DOCTOR: No. I don’t know if it’s ever happened. So, I’ve been with Planned Parenthood for just a little over a year.

    ACTOR: Okay, okay.

    DOCTOR: So in Texas I don’t know what they did before.

    ACTOR: Because I’ve been told the Gulf Coast does provide specimens –

    DOCTOR: Oh, do they? [The Center for Medical Progress, 10/27/15]

    Planned Parenthood Doctor Did Not Agree To A “Price” For Fetal Tissue Donations, Which She Does Not Perform

    Footage Reveals The Planned Parenthood Doctor Only Said “Okay” When A Reimbursement Cost For Tissue Donation Was Mentioned, Not That She Agreed To That Cost For Her Clinic. CMP’s press release claimed the Planned Parenthood doctor “affirms a fetal body part price of $50 or $60 per specimen,” but the footage of the conversation reveals that the Planned Parenthood doctor is having a brief, non-contractual conversation in the middle of a conference hall, and merely said “okay” when the CMP’s actors mentioned a reimbursement cost for fetal tissue donations at other clinics (emphasis added):

    CMP ACTOR: And we do return a portion of our researcher fees to the clinics that work with us.

    SECOND CMP ACTOR: So it’s worthwhile for everybody.

    ACTOR: I think that ABR is doing $50 per specimen right now was what I last heard. We could do $60.

    DOCTOR: Okay.

    ACTOR: Not that we have to fight over it. I mean if there’s room for us to come in on the next day like we’re happy to do that too. [The Center for Medical Progress, 10/27/15]

    State Investigations Into The Allegations CMP Claims Its Videos Support Have Found No Illegal Activity By Planned Parenthood. The deceptively-edited and secretly-recorded videos released by the Center for Medical Progress have spurred at least 11 states to launch investigations into Planned Parenthood’s operations. Six states — Missouri, Massachusetts, Indiana, South Dakota, Georgia, Pennsylvania — and the Department of Health and Human Services have all announced that they found no wrongdoing by Planned Parenthood or known violations of federal fetal tissue laws. [Media Matters, 8/24/15]

  • JD

    Wow, you really bought into the kool-aid, didnt you, Bob.


  • Bones

    Lol….guess who falls for these lies….This article is damning of the likes of Bob….

    How anti-abortion activists used undercover Planned Parenthood videos to further a political cause

    “The videos and court records show that Daleiden and his associates — posing as representatives of a fetal tissue brokerage — tried to loosen the tongues of abortion providers with alcohol.

    In conversations, they tried to plant phrases such as “fully intact baby” and to elicit statements suggesting that fetuses were alive when their tissue and organs were harvested for use in medical research.

    A comparison of raw footage and the videos he released shows that Daleiden edited out material that conflicted with his premise that Planned Parenthood-affiliated clinics profit from the sale of fetal tissue for research purposes.

    On Feb. 5, U.S. District Judge William Orrick in San Francisco issued an injunction requested by the NAF to keep more than 500 hours of Daleiden’s unreleased footage under seal.

    Orrick said the videos Daleiden has made public so far “have not been pieces of journalistic integrity, but misleadingly edited videos and unfounded assertions… of criminal misconduct.”

    Daleiden’s “fraud” was so extensive and his videos so misleading that his still-unpublished recordings of private conversations do not warrant 1st Amendment protection as free speech, the judge said. In his order, Orrick used the words “fraud” or “fraudulently” 13 times in referring to Daleiden’s methods.

    Daleiden and his associates are appealing the injunction in a bid to unseal the tapes. Meanwhile, the case is headed to trial, with the NAF seeking unspecified damages for fraud, trespassing, invasion of privacy, racketeering and other alleged offenses.”


  • Your research is incomplete. “The likes of you” aren’t critical readers but ideologues. More like children refusing to give up their teddy bear for real interaction. But with God’s decision to put Donald Trump in office all that will change and fast. Better get ready.

    Meanwhile CNN reported that Planned Parenthood decided to stop the practice of selling baby body parts:

    By Drew Griffin and David Fitzpatrick, CNN
    Updated 8:46 AM ET, Tue October 20, 201

    But last week Planned Parenthood announced it would no longer accept any reimbursement costs at any of its clinics for the transfer of fetal tissue-samples. In a letter to the National Institutes of Health, Planned Parenthood’s president defended her organization and insisted all transactions in the past were legal. But says the new change in policy was being taken “…in order to take away any basis for attacking Planned Parenthood to advance an anti-abortion political agenda.”
    Contacted after the announcement, Daleiden says the sudden change in policy is an admission that he and his videos were right.
    “If the money Planned Parenthood has been receiving for baby body parts were truly legitimate ‘reimbursement,’ why cancel it?” Daleiden wrote in a statement to CNN. “This proves what the Center for Medical Progress has been saying all along — Planned Parenthood incurs no actual costs, and the payments for harvested fetal parts have always been an extra profit margin.”

    Planned Parenthood is an abortion mill. Not by “percentage of services” but by “percentage of revenues” Follow the money and you will see the truth.

    Trying to blame the investigation is a tactic to deflect the truth.

    Planned Parenthood public funding is at risk because of their conduct. Government funding is not allowed to pay for abortions. This is the issue not whether they provide other services and are somehow indispensable but using the money for abortions. Selling body parts is against the law and they have been caught red handed.

  • In the beginning before the universe was created there were only two beings identified: God and the Word.

    Paul never contradicted Jesus. He advocated keeping the commandments as did all the apostles.

    Jesus is in heaven with God. Jesus does have all authority under God. God’s spirit is available to all men if they ask. The spirit guides our conversion.

    Tell me how you “go to the Spirit?” I go to the Father directly because the sacrifice of Jesus has reconciled man to God and allows me access.

  • Herm

    Bob, you’re quoting catechism and the picture developed by your church of study of God (theology).

    The carnal (physical) cosmos is at least as old as our fledgling science says it is, with a beginning and will have an end. God is many distinct spirits each a heart, soul, strength and mind. God is united as one with each heart and mind filled with the Holy Spirit. God is only spirit and can occupy all space at the same time and sit entirely on the pimple of a quark. This I know today and did not when considered a minor scholar of theology.

    I had a working arrangement with God where Christ led and opened doors for me all of my life. At 17 I recognized the hand of God intervening in my entire visible community to keep our divisive chaos in sufficient balance not to collapse. I began a serious study of God including higher education in both college and a Presbyterian seminary. Sensing I knew nothing of reality I asked my heavenly Father for help so that I didn’t remain only theoretical according to my studies. He took me four years through the USAF with one year in country Vietnam with many of His supported ministries to others along the way as I learned real life. When I got out I finished my higher education with a major in psychology. God made it very clear that I was not to ever be paid by any one church. I was to be ecumenical in my spiritual lay service for Man and God. Later I understood because I with my family was never dependent on any one church beyond love for support. He took me through becoming an engineer in the computer industry because the physical science kept me grounded, gave me room to travel and paid for my family needs very well.

    In my late 30’s I was comparatively so successful at nearly everything, including as a carded lay minister for three years at Folsom prison, that while in prayer on my knees I told God, “Thank you Father, I have it all now You can use me any anywhere!

    After my decade long mid-life crisis, within which I lost all that I thought I had, I reflected that at 51 years of age I had done all that my parents and nation had asked that I do in all traditions as good. In utter anguish in grief for my losses (family, church and occupation) I lay prostrate on my bedroom floor and thanked God for all that I had had by Their grace (I have never earned anything). I was ready to walk into the sunset as my life, as I had known it before then, was complete.

    There was one minor (I thought) issue I had never addressed in my five decade assertive effort to know the Truth of life as much as possible beyond theory. No one I know realizes how much opportunity was afforded me by God in my quest. I was good to learned the fruits and I was bad to learn the consequences. I was never seriously handicapped, did not die nor was I ever incarcerated beyond voluntary. I had clearly a “graced” life with, known in my mind and heart for certain, an audience with God every time I opened to Jesus, our heavenly Father and the Holy Spirit, every time without fail. The issue was, which I had to face when left with nothing else to distract me, that I had selectively opened my heart and mind to God as I thought was convenient for my own needs. When I “thought” I was sinning according to all catechisms of Man I simply didn’t share that with God.

    Bob, I truly hope you got this far because this is where I answer how I “go to the Spirit”. Before that woe is me prostrate time before my Lord God the Spirit was always there for counsel when invited because I opened my heart and mind to the Spirit of truth in the portions I felt comfortable with. I see signs, by your fruit, that you allow the Spirit in once in awhile though too influence by your allegiance to Man, family and church to trust Him full time.

    I “told” God then that my heart and mind is now open to be filled by the Holy Spirit full time and never to be closed to God again. I actually had nothing to lose and later found I had always had everything to gain even before I lost everything carnal graced to my name. I found as I went on to live and grow in my life continually in prayer in my heart and mind that sin wasn’t all that it was cracked up to be. Sin is purely a chosen separation from love in reciprocating relationships. I don’t, can’t, sin against God because I am filled all ways as a little child in reciprocal love with God.

    I am a little child on a scale of reality that nearly befits a human scale of perhaps the terrible twos but with a full time Nanny guiding me as I play on earth.

    Bob, I can’t begin to tell you how my life turned around into a second full carnal and spiritual life in these last 20 some years.

    An anecdote that might help to illustrate is that another woman literally forced herself into my life when I thought I was done and mourning the loss of my wife and children. This woman was nice and intelligent and a self sufficient professional with an eleven year old child herself. I shared everything with her including what I considered my failings and sins. She considered all but never left me. We married and she stayed with me, with no job, as I had my 20% impacted prostate removed. I did get a job after three years and a bankruptcy shortly before. The job paid well and allowed my retirement eight years later after some serious concussions. It was not until I was secure in that job, and all our children were restored, that it was made known to me Greek for Dorothy means gift of God.

  • Bones

    That’s right you aren’t a critical reader.

    you are the ideologue who has no interest in facts.

    Your videos are frauds.

    All of them.

  • Cogent answer revealing the depth of your ignorance.

  • Bones

    How about you post some more fraudulent claims.

  • Herm, thank you for sharing. I understand you a little better now. We have some things in common; my first degree was in electrical engineering.

    I was in Canada on business when I picked up a Plain Truth magazine and that changed my life. Since that night I have been studying the bible seriously for the last 35 years. I studied with five different organizations since then learning everything I could. This path was surely directed by God through his Spirit. The most exciting thing to me is when I learn something new about God and this is why I attempt to communicate with some on this site.

    I will look at your comments differently now and this is certainly a gift from God also. God bless you and protect you and your family.

  • Herm

    Thank you Bob. I never have not loved you.

    There was one other not so little thing I finally came to after 50 years of age. If God, as portrayed in the entirety of the christian Bible, is as omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient as we demand He/They be then why don’t I give myself over to God’s protection, nurture, teaching and providing? I did. One way I can explain what happened after was like becoming the little helpless child that I was to my carnal parents and our community without their weakness, limited vision and ignorance (who by all standards of mankind were relatively strong, intelligent, good and most loving … I was blessed).

    You understand today, because of your picking up a Plain Truth magazine, that there is infinitely more truth beyond religion guided by Man. In studying your Bible please note that Jesus never stopped referring to himself as the Son of Man, even after His baptism by the Dove and then our Father’s voice was heard saying, “this is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

    Note, thereafter, that the carpenter Jesus knew meaning to the scriptures that the religious authorities did not (not to ignore that He did teach in the temple at age 12).

    I know not to abandoned the Bible nor any other documentation of Man’s pursuit of God. I am first a child of Man and most a child of God. I love first the Man I know and most the God I am learning from within.

    But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

    Matthew 3:7-10

    This is the true salvation of those who come to Him and inherit by relationship through the Spirit eternal life in Him and He in them.

    Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

    John 1:12-13

    The cross is the example of God sacrificing for Man as so many of Man before and after have sacrificed their children for God. God can raise Their children from the dead and Man cannot. The cross I carry is in love and sacrifice for Man as a child of God.

    It might only be my childish fear of the unknown but I sense there is a time of growing strife upon Man without God today. This may be why so much is making sense to me now that did not, at all, 22 years ago. I have never sought to be famous, powerful or wealthy because I know how ignorant, immature and powerless I am to lead those around me that I know and love. Today I feel an over powering need to bring those receptive to God to learn the love they seek for themselves while seeking to share love with others. Today I have been granted a medium with skills to do so without fame, power and wealth.

    Bob, you seek the Truth and the Truth is in your midst. I don’t need to know any more about you or where you go from here. I need only to share with you because you are a lovable, seeking and receptive child of Man.

    Go, please, to allow God to do the same for you as They have for me that you may do the same for others.

    Bob, there are those who will read this that neither of us knows, God does, who will seek to do the same because they now know it “may” be possible. That’s what we do. We don’t ask that others grow our religion, we ask others to join our family. That is what Jesus has always done and our heavenly Father has been perfect in divine support.

    Love you and yours. We are blessed.

  • Benjamin, I love this post. I’m the only non-fundamentalist in my family (that I know of–we’re a quiet bunch) and my Mom has declared holidays to be free of religious or political arguments and that really helped. I was glad I didn’t have to come up with the rule. I haven’t tried the re-direct, but I will. And my coping mechanism to to keep visits short so that tensions and tempers don’t have as much time to build. Thanks for caring for us ex-vangelicals!