The Blood of American Christianity Will Be The Seed Of The Church

The Blood of American Christianity Will Be The Seed Of The Church December 9, 2015

green plants

It’s a funny thing what makes Christianity grow and flourish.

In the Second Century, Tertullian (one of the early Christian theologians), wrote in Apologeticus that the “blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church.”

For the first few hundred years of our faith, Christianity was an illegal cult of nonviolent enemy lovers who were systematically slaughtered by the powers that be, even though they refused to fight back. Dying instead of fighting had an interesting effect: it caused the growth of the church to explode. Thus, Tertullian argued that death is the very thing that makes the church to grow.

We still see this principle play out today. For example, if we look to China, we see a place where there is systematic persecution of Christians, yet an explosion of Christianity to the point they are on pace to become the largest Christian nation in the world.

We often call the Kingdom of Jesus an “upside-down” Kingdom because it operates on principles that are contrary to anything else we find in the world– and this is also true with how it grows.

It’s an upside-down Kingdom that grows in upside-down ways.

In the context of American Christianity, I think we are at an interesting point in history and are standing right in the middle of a death/growth cycle that will perhaps only best be understood in hindsight, but I’m beginning to catch glimpses of it now. However, instead of it being a situation where there is systematic bloodshed by the powers that be spurring growth of the Church, what’s happening today is the result of a clash between two different kinds of Christianity— one is the tradition of Jesus, and one is a nationalistic, secular religion that simply has the same name.

Long ago, the predominant form of Christianity in America was married off to the secular state. This caused Christianity to morph and change, cave into culture, and settle in comfortably to a position of not just localized power, but global power. Theology was even developed to justify this and to raise a up a generation of people dedicated to maintaining that power– and dedicated to taking it back when they felt they had lost it. Because of this marriage to nationalistic ideology, Christianity itself became hard to distinguish from secular politics– in fact, in the civil religion called Christianity, true believers are only permitted to hold one set of political beliefs.

The civil religion we call Christianity is failing– and everyone knows it. Statistics show at a minimum, it has stopped growing in any meaningful way. While they have their base of loyalists, they have failed to recruit their own children— and unless they magically convert their kids, within a generation, the American Christianity we’ve known will be near its end.

And I’m here today to tell you that this is a beautiful thing– because I am already witnessing that the blood of American Christianity is actually becoming the seed of the church.

You see, there are plenty of us out here who have realized this civil, nationalistic religion doesn’t look anything like Jesus– and we’re tired of pretending.

We’re tired of the wars and violence which use God’s name to justify them.

We’re tired of seeing Jesus married off to a republican party that’s been hijacked by extremists– a marriage by force but not of love.

We’re tired of seeing Christian leaders like Jerry Falwell advocate for things that are diametrically opposed to the way of Jesus.

We’re tired of xenophobia in the name of Jesus, the marginalization of the poor, the apathy towards immigrants, and we’re really tired of this sadistic fetish civil Christianity has with guns.

And you know what? We’re tired of Franklin Graham’s Facebook posts, too. Whether denouncing our LGBTQ brothers and sisters, advocating we exclude Muslims from coming to our shores, or spouting Fox News talking points as if they were written by the Apostle Paul, we’re tired of pretending that he is part of the same religion we are.

Most of all, we’re tired of pretending this is Christianity. It’s time to be honest and just admit: that’s not Christianity at all.

To quote Samuel L. Jackson from Pulp Fiction: “That’s not in the same ballpark. It’s not even the same freaking game.”

We’ve grown enough to have the courage to say: not my circus, not my monkeys, not my Christianity, not my Jesus.

But here’s the beautiful thing: while we’ve rejected or been pushed out of the civil religion called Christianity, we haven’t just packed up our bags and gone home. We didn’t exchange our Bibles for Dawkins. We didn’t exchange “truth for a lie” as they accuse us.

We exchanged American Christianity for Jesus himself.

We are the blood of American Christianity, and we are becoming the seed of the Church.

There’s a new day dawning for Christianity in America– I see it every day from messages that find their way to my inbox. People who have opened their eyes and realized there are two kinds of Christianity, and that one must be embraced while the other must be condemned to death. They are people who are disenfranchised with the system, but incredibly passionate about following Jesus. In fact, they rightly see the civil religion in America doesn’t look anything like Jesus, so they reject it– not because they reject Jesus, not because they reject the Church Jesus established, but because they are astute enough to recognize a counterfeit when they see it.

While American Christianity as we’ve known it is poised to die, I believe with all my heart that Christianity itself is finally being born in America. It is a Christianity rooted in following Jesus himself– one where the adherents actually want to follow what Jesus said, and do what Jesus did. I witness this Christianity being born around me at every turn, and while I lament the damage of Christendom and Americanized Christianity, I rejoice to live in the time when Christianity was finally introduced to America.

It’s not your grandma’s Christianity, but it is an ancient Christianity… and it’s beautiful.

Just as in the days of Tertullian, the church is being born– not in spite of death, but because of it.

It’s a funny thing what makes Christianity grow and flourish.


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  • Shannon Freeman

    Thank you so much. Thank you.

  • Mr. 406

    May we be brave enough to be humble, and strong enough to be weak in the face of loud voices and established interests. May we be accused of loving too freely and without agenda. May we be willing to actually carry a cross if it means we meet our Savior along the way. Amen.

  • This is exactly how I feel about everything. Thank you for speaking for me.

  • JD

    Beautifully stated. Thank you for this!

  • Yes!

  • Psalm023

    Wow. This is a word for today’s western christian church. Thank you Ben. I couldn’t agree more and am so thankful that more voices are stirred to say what’s needed to be said. Serious Christians have been so quiet about this cultish takeover by the hoodwinked cultists. I couldn’t agree more and am saddened by the rhetoric of Franklin Graham and others of his stature. He models himself as a Christian, but out of his mouth comes warnings of fear, and earthly glory and pride and some form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.

  • Brian Kellogg

    As someone who is not sure what he is exactly or what he believes about some biblical claims, I can still hope for this. So much more I could say but I’ll just simply say thank you.

  • Herm

    You just made an “alter call” in the hearts and minds who are actually asking and seeking and knocking on the heart and mind of God and God’s Spirit of truth. You just defined the battle we’re urged to wage for the uniting as one, in complete spiritual familial trust, of those searching hearts to finally become eternally bound in the covenant of God’s love without end. You just extrapolated from obvious years and years of your sincere study of an exceedingly old and finite parchment the infinite Truth we all here honestly seek either from the outside or know now the peace and joy from within. You did so in a way that others might also use their years of sincere Bible study in Christian fellowship (in His name) to find the only living and forever inerrant Teacher, as clearly have you. Ben, once again, thank you for your daring to share your love and the truth just as you know it in your heart and mind! Love you!!!

  • plus rich bitches!

  • Caryl

    Best Post Ever.

  • seashell

    Just wow. I’m an apatheist but what this kind of Christianity teaches is the way I would like to live my life.

  • Adam

    The best Benjamin Corey post yet?

    I might alter a bit of the language because it’s bigger than just an American / American Church issue, IMHO. This thing that you’re speaking to is about the death of Christendom, which is larger than just the American church. The whole of Christianity historically has common roots, but the tree branched into two trunks when Constantine came onto the scene and Christendom was established; small bands of committed, sacrificial Christians continued on a second trunk in the shade over the centuries (including your own Anabaptist tradition) and now the trunk of Christendom is dying off and the resources that it has stolen all this time can be fully devoted to the Christ-like trunk.

  • Paul Schlitz

    That is a very interesting post. But I think most of us have our feet in both camps to some extent. And even if we don’t, how do we best relate to those who are “still back on that” in terms of the civil religion Benj adroitly excoriates? It is a matter of what is the baby and what is the bathwater.

  • Greg

    I wish Christians were united, never knew of a Anabaptist. I pray for all!

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    This is part (although not all) of why I call myself a follower of Christ rather than a Christian: I don’t like, agree, or want any part of a good chunk of what you describe as “American Christianity.” I want to do my best to follow the words of Jesus, not become part of this weird cultural phenomenon that I see espoused around me by the establishment of the Christianity that I grew up with. I want to try to love my neighbor as I love myself, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, welcome in the stranger, turn the other cheek, love my enemy, and repent when I fail to do these things, not hold myself up as holy and justified.

    It’s hard, I know. I fail often, probably more often than not. But it’s the path that I want to seek, even if I’m doing baby steps.

  • Herm

    To what extent can one straddle the fence between camps before toppling over? If one camp should collapse is that not the one that gravity forces the straddler to follow? Can one be of service to any camp with such a split allegiance?

    It is time to take responsibility for which one, and only one, we choose to throw out and which one we choose to support. Once our carnal body dies it is too late for us if we were still waiting for time to choose.

  • Paula Champion Jones

    BRAVO! Well said.

  • Dan Tucker

    As a fairly new fan of BLC, I agree with others that this is his best work. Cheers and thank you!

  • Americanized Christianity needs to die, but why use their blood to grow the authentic movement of the early church? Do you not worry about cross-contamination, pun intended? But seriously, the death ought to be complete and the corpse placed in a hazardous waste facility by a hazmat unit.

  • seashell

    …how do we best relate to those who are “still back on that” in terms of the civil religion Benj adroitly excoriates?

    Give them the best good news?

  • Yeh, as South Africans we lived through Apartheid where state and church were virtually one. Presently in our country, slowly but surely, that false ‘Christianity’ is being replaced by a much purer, biblical form, within and increasingly outside of traditional Christianity. Long live the Jesus Revolution!

  • Markee B

    BRAVO! Benjamin! As I became disenchanted with the unequal yoke of the smug conservative church with right wing politics, I felt, and was treated like a “Backslider”! Well, they were part right, I was backsliding! From false pride down that long, bumpy slope to a humble Jesus who doesn’t condemn the poor, vilify the struggling, or idolize the wealthy and powerful. I agree wholeheartedly. Thanks. On target and uplifting!

  • Bones

    I wish there were more Christians like you.

  • Stan Ferguson

    Really good article, and i was right there with ya…, until I realized that sadly your version isn’t the original either. You see the original didn’t make allowances for sin. And that because the early Christians knew that, first and foremost, the Good News was the message that after countless centuries of captivity the chains that held humankind since the error of Adam were at long last broken. The Son had set them free. Until we, as a people of God, come to understand this matter, I’m afraid any renewal will be limited, if at all genuine.

  • Hey Benjamin. Thanks for this article, it’s thought provoking and interesting. I’m in Scotland myself and although i can’t see direct correlations there is definitely a need for the church of ‘religion’ to die here… Like in America, I think it’s a matter of time. Renewal and revival, (words I use reluctantly), are happening here but not from the state churches. The flow of the Spirit is happening at a grass roots level, one small fire at a time until the gaps between fires grows ever smaller… Thanks for your thoughts…

  • Corey’s reference to Republicans without also naming the Democrats is a big mistake. It’s such a big mistake that it’s tempting to conclude it’s not a mistake, that Corey means to play the divide-and-conquer game of the empire and instigate an argument between Christians who favor Republicans and Christians who favor Democrats.

    No, I am not defending Republicans here. I am pointing out that Democrats participate every bit as much as Republicans in the deviltry of conflating US imperialism with Christianity.

    So when Corey calls out Republicans but not Democrats, he not only reveals that he does not understand the implications of his own critique, he sets up a diversionary debate among Christians.

    Beware! And take the pledge not to join the devil’s quadrennial spectacle of bashing one another over who is better qualified to run the empire and destroy other societies who stand in the way of U.S. supremacy.

  • James Quinn

    Where are the Democrats doing what the Republicans do? I’ve not witnessed what you’re describing, never been told that I’m not a true Christian if I’m not a Democrat, and don’t know really any major Dems who use God in the way the GOP uses him.

  • James Quinn

    Where did he make allowance for sin? I don’t see it.

  • JD

    I don’t want to speak for Ben, but my guess is that Republicans are mentioned because it seems as though they are the ones who use their faith as justification for their many anti-Christ positions. They are the party that claims to represent “conservative Christian values”, so naturally when talking about the failings of Americanized Christianity, the political party that claims to represent Christian principles will be referenced.

  • JD

    I too am confused about where this “allowance for sin” is. Can you please elaborate? It may simply be a misunderstanding.

  • James, there are clear differences in the way the two parties package their shared “civil, nationalistic religion” that justifies war and violence. It’s the differences that engage us and divert us from the evil that is being done in our name and in the name of the god of the Christian faith

    So if you focus only on the packaging, then I will not be able to provide an answer to your question.

    But when we look behind the packaging, we see both parties are fully committed to the idolatry of American exceptionalism, to the indispensability of the USA to “peace and security” (1 Thess. 5:3), to the superiority of “American values,” to the policy of “full spectrum dominance,” to the perogative to intervene in the affairs of others and use violence to impose the imperial way.

    One party talks a lot about god, the other not so much, but they both are peddling the same false religion.

  • JD

    “One party talks a lot about god, the other not so much, but they both are peddling the same false religion.”

    Completely agree. I think the fact that one party talks a lot about God is why that party was singled out when talking about Americanized Christianity. I get your point, and I would think Corey would agree.

  • RonnyTX

    Amen Ben, amen! :-)

    And just thinking here, not taught this by my parents; but when I was much younger and in a local church, I was led to falsely believe that the Republican Party was the party of God. It wasn’t and I later found that out. But a few years ago and in some online groups, I had great fun telling some people, well if the Republican party was the party of God, you see where that left you Democrats! :-( LoL

  • ashpenaz

    Why not simply identify right-wing Christianity as the Antichrist? I think that the Antichrist exists as a force to distort and weaken the gospel. I think it takes different forms in different generations. I think the Antichrist described in Revelation and the early church letters is alive today–in Franklin Graham, in Mike Huckabee, in Focus on the Family, and all those usual suspects. The Antichrist is not even trying that hard to hide–just look for people or groups who call themselves Christian and then act completely differently than Jesus.

    It doesn’t do followers of Jesus any good to claim the religious right as brothers or as part of the body when they are clearly filled with the Spirit of Antichrist. Only by identifying and confronting the Antichrist can we hope to defeat it.

  • Sam Carbaugh

    Amen. Thank you brother. You are not alone in feeling this. Many of us have.

  • Steve Bailey

    Thank you, Ben. As ashpenaz says here, we should think about identifying destructive right-wing Christianity with the Antichrist. The definitions fit and the ‘usual suspects’ are in the service of something quite antithetical to the Gospel of Christ while pontificating in His name.

  • Marty Miller

    I have believed for some time that the church of Jesus in America is a church in exile. But I am convenience that the Spirit of the Living God is alive and well and on the move.

  • Ron McPherson

    Ben,
    This may be your best one ever!

  • A great post! The way Trump and others have been drawing lines in the sand has actually benefited us greatly, because the voice of real Christianity is now highlighted against the backdrop of the nationalist version that is anti-christ. Thanks be to God!

    http://godsfoolishness.blogspot.com/2015/12/the-scandal-of-christmas-continues.html

  • ashpenaz

    The weapons we have to fight the Antichrist are not insults and name-calling. We need to address the Antichrist with the full armor of God. We have the sword of the Gospel, and the Antichrist doesn’t. We don’t need violence or anger to win–we’re not good guys with guns. The best way to defeat a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a Cross. I’m not saying we become like the Antichrist. I simply say we need to confront and identify the Antichrist–and defeat him with truth and love.

  • Matt Woodling

    Great, now we have what appears to be a movement of believers who think their Christianity is the one true Christianity and the other Christianity is, let’s face it, really of the devil himself. Us vs. Them. Good vs. Evil. May the apostates die the death they deserve. When does this insane crap stop?

  • gpresident

    Thank you for articulating what the holy unrest in my soul has been recognizing for sometime. This is the most encouraging thing I have seen in a while.

  • Thanks, Ron. I really appreciate it.

  • The other “Christianity” is dying all by itself. I guess it’ll stop when it’s dead.

  • I think Ben identified AntiChrist in the article.

  • Whoops, sorry. I hadn’t read your other comment, yet. Context is everything!

  • Tim Cooper

    It never does. The salami can always be sliced thinner, and We Will Be Victorious Because God Is On Our Side And We Are His Voice In A Lost World (TM) plays to everyone’s ideology.

  • Matt Woodling

    As a non-believer, I see this Corey view as a problem in itself, especially if it’s a widespread view. It’s just more Us vs. Them, Good vs. Evil, our worship of Best Christ vs. their unknowing worship of the antichrist. THOSE bad Christians are apostates because they believe in the wrong Christianity. Our view will eventually win out because it is correct and righteous. Apostates must not be allowed to have power or say in the world.

    This view is no different from ISIS, except that right now, Christians generally don’t talk about killing people for believing the wrong thing. Thank God for that.

    And none of these creators/anticreators can be pointed to to demonstrate that they even exist – at all. The only way they can be demonstrated is by personal experience and revelation – not very helpful or convincing to me who has not had any revelation (not for lack of trying, by the way).

    Eventually, these “good” Christians will try to exercise their newfound power (if they achieve it) to try to force their beliefs on others – they always do, because their beliefs are unassailable and beyond criticism and are simply the best view of things, according to them.

    When does this insane crap stop? When can I stop being afraid of believing the wrong thing?

  • Herm

    My question would then be was Jesus, as pictured in the four gospels, peddling religion or a divine familial relationship beginning only as little children?

    What I am trying to clear up for us all is that an exclusive us religion becomes a mature influential beast of its own that all its members take allegiance to defend against them. Family is a relationship and the little children within never are forced to pledge their allegiance. All religions on earth today require a pledge of allegiance to be recognized as an active and influential member in their book. Members of religion become an us expected to convert those outside others that their religion does not die but grows. Do little children in any carnal family even begin to consider such a defense of their family? How capable are little children of God to be able to understand enough to even know what they are defending? I’ve been on elementary school playgrounds both as a little child and an adult. Little children don’t do well trying to protect the good name of their family against the bullies, especially when first separated from the protection of their immediate family who they have grown 4 or 5 years to know and trust to protect them and provide for all their needs because they know their family’s love (even with little sibling rivalry within those early years).

    Is not the evil that religions of Abraham today are continuing, emulating the other “pagan” religions, is to order and regulate in the name of God to their fearful consumers what services and forms of worship must be accomplished to find recognition, protection, peace and joy from their almighty creator? Did not the Messiah try to save us (each with no more maturity than 120 years of earth bound) from that false image of our creator God (with the maturity of no beginning and no end who is omnipresent throughout and beyond our known cosmos)?

    I just cannot draw a sufficient picture of our creator God, who I know as my family today, to explain the destructive spirit of evil that comes from ever splintering, into ever more numerous exclusive clubs, religions of mankind in this world of carnal dependence. I once referred to my artistic abilities as at the stick figure level but I now know that I have a long way to go before I can communicate even that well.

    My point, that I am certain of, is that all little children need a knowing, protective and nurturing mature family to survive all the perils of life that they are ignorant of. Little children do not know what they do not know. Little children do not know the ramifications of judging another little child’s splinter in her/his eye when they are actually blinded by the plank in their own. Little children really don’t care that they can’t see the forest for the trees. Families with mature loving parents tend to have their little children mature to love their family from which their family’s cup of love overflows even into families not so graced. Christ Jesus’ commands are all love related. Christ Jesus’ demands of allegiance are only to love. Christ Jesus’ saves us from certain mortal death by offering a permanent place at the family table of God, today, as a little child who knows they know relatively nothing compare to their Father. Religions, circling their wagons to defend against the ravages of other religions, cannot save us from the savagery of us against them. Dragging our cross, appearing by all definitions of mankind defenseless, through the camp of others can actually save us from ourselves by getting close enough to the others that we realize the closer we get they are us.

    Jesus teaches that there are only two entities of spirit we have a choice to be one in relationship with. We can remain in relationship within the carnally based spiritual image of God with a graced beginning of opportunity of discernment and a certain end … or … we each can accept God’s love, sacrifice daily for our good, protection, nurture, and teaching in all humility as a little child who knows (s)he is helplessly ignorant, who cannot hope to survive their childhood without a family who can lead them into an eternal relationship with Them. Religion is a spiritual master of intellectual theology when our Lord God is a master of familial relationship.

    This was not meant to go this long. In my defense there is much, much, much more. Even exponentially more that my fellow little children of God chime in. Their is no one liner, one book or one library that can contain the realities of infinity and eternity and all that can become contained within each. We don’t know dip. We are destructive when we claim we know enough to save ourselves. Religions make that claim. The chronicles of Jesus the Christ that have survived tell me, now clearly, that Jesus claimed that mankind knows nothing and that the Spirit of truth, the Dove at His baptism, is ours to accept in our spiritual hearts and minds to join in God and God’s spiritual hearts and minds in us as one eternal family.

    Is the God we talk about here a religion or a relationship?

  • Here are an example of what the quakers call quieries. These are not necessarily meant to be shared w anyone but for you, today or whenever you want, to clairify where you, matt, mindfully, soulfully stand on anything that you don’t have an immediate answer for.

    What do you believe in now?
    What are you afraid of?
    Why are you afraid of it?
    GOOD LUCK! =|:«)

  • Brian Kellogg

    “When does this insane crap stop? When can I stop being afraid of believing the wrong thing?”

    I think that an excellent question given the majority conservative Christian context we live in. As this is how the proposition is often couched, isn’t it?

    For me, the more important problem is not what we believe but the process each takes to get to what we believe and the humility to admit our own limits to reach for “perfect truth”. What are the presumptions/biases that go unquestioned in each of us? See through a glass darkly and all, which flies in the face of the absolute certainty many Christians profess in far too many beliefs.

    So I think belief is extremely important but not because there is a proposed heaven or hell consequence. Those are inferior motivating factors. There are issues here and now that belief affects for good or bad.

    The analogy to ISIS falls apart very quickly once you get beyond the fact that yes Ben and others disagree with those they are critiquing. But, I understand the frustration.

    Science itself is in the middle of an epistemic conundrum to a certain extent. Just read three good posts on this by a philosopher attending an event to discuss how science continues to pursue “truth” while theories continue to exceed their empirical grasp and possibly our ability to ever empirically verify. Highly recommend reading the three blog posts. https://platofootnote.wordpress.com/2015/12/08/why-trust-a-theory-part-i/

  • Herm

    Matt, relate your honest questions to your first few years as a little child in your physical family of birth. When did you first begin being afraid of believing in the wrong thing? When were you first aware of this insane crap?

    Thanks for your valid questions and your care to share!

  • SamHamilton

    …in the civil religion called Christianity, true believers are only permitted to hold one set of political beliefs.

    So is Mr. Corey saying that good Christians can disagree on all sorts of public policies issues without being told “if you don’t take X position, you’re not following Jesus?”

    Based on his past blog posts, I find it hard to believe that’s what he’s saying. While I think the comparison to ISIS is hyperbolic, I think commenter Matt Woodling is onto something.

  • RonnyTX

    Matt:
    When does this insane crap stop? When can I stop being afraid of believing the wrong thing?

    Ronny to Matt:
    Matt, you can stop being afraid right now. :-) And you will get your personal experience and revelation on that from God and that at the time God chooses to reveal such to you. I’m 60 years old and have been a believer in and follower of Jesus Christ, since I was 16 years old. But I became a believer in and follower of Jesus Christ at that time, because that is what God chose to happen to/for me then. And I sure didn’t know and understand everything then and I still don’t. (ha) LoL No, learning from God is an ongoing thing and not a one time thing. And God showed me it’s not listening to some preachers either and believing everything they say and that without question. But that’s a commonly taught error and sin in churches, as I well know by personal experience.

    Who are you to me? Why you’re my fellow human being and you’re my brother. :-) You are a child of God, just as you, I and every last human being is. And there is coming the time, that you too will be born of God. God will let you know that you’re not in a right relationship with God, God will show you your sin and bring you to repentance and then God will take you on to faith in Jesus Christ and the cross. Well, that’s the way of it for every person. The only difference being, when God chooses to do such, for a particular person. And one being born of God first, that in no way makes them better or more holy, because God chose to do this for them, before God chose to do such for some others. No, we’re all in the same boat,we’re all in God’s hands and there is no safer and better place to be, than to be in the hands of God/Jesus Christ. For God/Jesus Christ, is pure love! And that you will find out to be the truth, when you are born of God. Oh and there is no Jesus Christ created hell of eternal torment. That teaching came from pagan religion,from there was put in a translation of the bible by some in Roman Catholicism and went from there into most of Protestantism. So all of that wrong teaching, it’s not of God/Jesus Christ.

    And I’m not going to tell you that the folks who wrote the following page, know and understand everything. For they don’t, no more than you or I do. But they have some great pages on their site. And the one below, is certainly one of my favorites. :-)

    http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/DoesJesusREALLYLoveLittleChildren.html

  • SamHamilton

    I’ve never been told that either, but I’ve heard plenty of Christians on the political left say that if you don’t support the position that the Democratic party has taken on a whole host of issues, you’re not following Jesus or not a true Christian. The only reason you don’t hear elected Democrats do it is because they won’t benefit politically from it at this point in time.

  • RonnyTX

    Ashpenaz, I really liked one fellows description of antichrist, that I read a few years back. He simply said, antichrist is simply anything within me or any person, who wants things my/their way, instead of God’s way.

  • JD

    When one’s “Christianity” is in direct opposition to the teachings of Christ, then it should be called out. Nobody is saying anyone should die. It’s simply looking at what Christ taught and seeing that something is incompatible with it.

  • R V

    Jesus loves right wingers too and yet I see a whole lot of contempt on this website in general.

  • what you see as contempt is what I see as a whole lot of horror at the madness of brothers & sisters who, day by day, are disconnecting fr humanity & preparing to bc homicidal & genocidal! no way am I gunna stand by & be quiet abt the wholesale slaughter about to be deployed for to do so would be to bc complicit in crimes against humanity! =|:*{

  • yer purty hard bit pard! ‘what’s behind the mask kemosabee?’

  • ‘I love the smell of napalm in the morning!! ~LEUTENANT COLONEL BILL KILGOR apocolyps now

  • Herm

    The big question is just whose authority is it to tell “if you don’t take X position, you’re not following Jesus”? The second question would be of all the differing judges of mankind which one is correct or even most correct? The most important question is how are we all suppose to know?

    If Matthew 7:12 were applied for and by everyone and Matthew 22:37-40 were applied by those subject to Jesus’ commands wouldn’t there be a more agreeable way to disagree?

    Why do we have to bring into the mix so many differing theological demands from just the descendants of Abraham alone?

    I’m tired of so many defending authority that is founded on human supposition from too limited a perspective without any consideration for the results affecting the whole of humanity. Jesus does and we don’t listen.

  • Jason Burge

    Maybe it’s because they are too busy worshiping Mammon and will be spewed from his mouth. I mean–dogfighting a basic principle as income equality and raising the minimum wage, supporting wars we have zero business being in, much less starting, church leaders encouraging violence (a la Liberty University and Falwell Jr’s remarks), having no regard for the planet we live on while being appointed stewards of it. If they cared about the words of Christ more than the laws in the book of Leviticus, then maybe it’d be possible to believe they were Christians. Instead they come off as fear filled cowards who worship money. It’s the fruit of their tree and it’s disgusting.

  • seashell

    …but I’ve heard plenty of Christians on the political left say that if you don’t support the position that the Democratic party has taken on a whole host of issues, you’re not following Jesus or not a true Christian.

    Plenty? I’d be surprised if you heard it once. Twice would cause suspicion. The right and the left, Christian or secular, don’t act as mirror opposites of each other.

  • Matt Woodling

    I guess I’m not really concerned if anyone is in alignment with Christ’s teachings, especially since I have no reason to believe Christ was any more than an inspired rabbi, and I actually think that some of what he taught (according to the gospels) was immoral. Some of what he taught was beautiful, for sure.

    I just care that people are kind to each other, treat the rest of society well, treat their family well, and don’t insist that •I• or my children act according to their beliefs. They also must give more than lipservice to observing the laws of the rest of society, even if those laws don’t align with their interpretation of their own religion, because sometimes the rest of society knows better than scripture.

  • Matt Woodling

    And if the morals of and knowledge gained by the rest of society conflict with their religion, their religion MUST be subject to question, just like everything else.

  • Following Christ means you don’t get to force your beliefs on others. He didn’t, therefore we don’t.

  • “I just care that people are kind to each other, treat the rest of society well, treat their family well, and don’t insist that •I• or my children act according to their beliefs. They also must give more than lipservice to observing the laws of the rest of society, even if those laws don’t align with their interpretation of their own religion, because sometimes the rest of society knows better than scripture.”

    That is how I try to live out my Christianity.

  • Stan Ferguson

    The way in which he made reference to LGBTQ brothers and sister seemed to imply he though such was not an example of bondage to sin. And so I searched and discovered that that does seem to be the case. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/some-things-to-consider-if-you-think-being-gay-is-a-sin/

  • seashell

    I don’t know about sin allowances, but I wonder if you have considered the difference between being right and righteous? Or the difference between the letter of the law and the Spirit of the law?

    Some time ago and after his wife died, a man wrote an essay called Confessions of a Charismatic Fundamentalist. This part has always stuck with me as relevant to all of life, Christian or not:

    The events of these years have convinced me that the letter kills but the Spirit gives life. I have learned that there is a difference in being right and righteous … one can have absolute truth about an issue but be absolutely wrong in their application of that truth if they are not truly led by God’s Spirit.

    These past few years have also taught me that you take very few things with you when you die and one of them is relationships with fellow believers.

  • RonnyTX

    RV:
    Jesus loves right wingers too and yet I see a whole lot of contempt on this website in general.

    Ronny to RV:
    Of course Jesus loves right wingers and I should know, since I used to be one! :-) But I was taught to be that by some people and not by God/Jesus Christ. No, what God/Jesus Christ taught me to be and do, was simply to love. :-) And God taught me that, by God proving to me, just how greatly God/Jesus Christ loved me. :-) Because of that, I then loved God and all other people to boot. :-) So I take no credit for that, because it is all of God/Jesus Christ. It was God’s gift to me. :-) And the way I put it now, what God has done for one and for some, before all is said and done, God will do the same and that for every last person, from Adam on down! :-) So, I can greatly disagree with some people on somethings and I do; but that in no way means I don’t love that person. Too, every last one of us will be spending eternity together, so the way I see it now, I am to love everyone now and do my best to get along with them. And if some refuse, well then, they refuse; but as for myself, I simply refuse to be anyones enemy. I simply refuse to do anything but love. And that no matter how wrong and irritating, the other person may be on somethings! (ha) LoL

    And it will be for their own good; but when I think of people like say Donald Trump, I sort of feel sorry for them. Why? Because I know they have some very painful things, that God is going to put them through. But such is for their own good and because God/Jesus Christ loves them. Well, that’s how it is for all of us, to one degree or another. God puts us through painful things and that because God/Jesus Christ loves us all and because such is for our own good. :-)

  • RonnyTX

    Matt:
    Great, now we have what appears to be a movement of believers who think their Christianity is the one true Christianity and the other Christianity is, let’s face it, really of the devil himself. Us vs. Them. Good vs. Evil. May the apostates die the death they deserve. When does this insane crap stop?best

    Ronny to Matt:
    Matt, the truth is that a lot that goes by the name of Christianity, is of the devil and not of God/Jesus Christ. But that doesn’t mean I think the apostates should die the death they deserve. No, I simply say that God will change such persons and that at the time God chooses. Well, God did that for me and I have no doubt but that what God has done for one and for some, before all is said and done, God will do the same for every person. :-)
    And none of us are certainly not completely right and perfect yet, so we all still have areas that God needs to correct and change in us all. But the good and best news is, God is going to do that and that for every last one of us. :-)

  • Stan Ferguson

    I think the reason we make such allowances is because we haven’t been taught how to overcome sins power… which can only be experienced by the Spirit.

    Sadly bible teachers have said for centuries that Paul in Romans 7 is talking about his Christian experience, and so if that great man of God couldn’t walk in victory over sin how can we ever expect to? And our own life experience seems to confirm that this is so. Thankfully the Spirit has shown me this simply isn’t the case.
    But knowing the pain I realize that at some point it becomes unbearable, and so we look for a way out; an answer to address this death we feel inside. I went down a number of dead-end roads myself before the Spirit brought me here. And I think the path of acceptance of the lifestyle is one such dead-end.
    I don’t say these things as one that doesn’t have firsthand knowledge. Believe me, I know about pain, so I don’t condemn, my purpose is so someone might find hope.
    And I know how long it took for the Lord to bring me to this place. I know the struggles, the failures, the back-slidings.
    I lived in torment most of my life, much of it as a Christian, and I’m not a young man. I know the judgment of the well meaning brothers and sisters. I know the embarrassment of deliverance services that have no effect. The discipline of Bible reading and hours of prayer. They said do all ya can and God’ll do the rest…, but there must have always been one more thing I could have done. So I know what it’s like to come to the awareness that you just don’t have what it takes to pull yer self up by your bootstraps. And perhaps worst, I know the hopelessness of coming to grips with the fact that you will never be able to realize the dream God placed in your heart.
    I’ve cried, from the depths of my being the cry of that man in Romans 7.

    So the LGBT community isn’t alone in their suffering. The reality is that many other believers have, and continue to suffer under oppressive manifestations of sin. Some of which, not unlike my own. no civilized culture would ever allow to ‘come out’ into the open.

    But over years of experiencing His loving mercy in my life I’ve come to believe that He’s able and faithful. So I hoped against hope because He said it. And so on that beautiful spring day when He told me that I don’t have to be bond by that sin any longer…, I tearfully thanks Him, and taking back up the good fight, began experiencing victory.

  • seashell

    I heard the pain in your story and understand wanting to give hope. Same sex attraction occurs in nature and it is natural for people born that way. The LBGTQ people were born as they are, don’t need to change and don’t want to. They don’t live a lifestyle, but normal, natural lives. Further, I don’t think God/Nature makes mistakes or condemns LGBTQ people, he loves them as much as anyone else. My understanding of the NT is that God will judge on judgement day, and doesn’t need help from anyone here on earth now, but only asks his followers to love him, to love everyone else and to live in peace. How freeing is that?

  • seashell

    Jesus loves right wingers too…

    He might love them, but he wouldn’t be one.

  • Jeff Preuss

    “So the LGBT community isn’t alone in their suffering. The reality is that many other believers have, and continue to suffer under oppressive manifestations of sin.”
    The reality is that, for many, it isn’t an oppressive manifestation of anything. It’s just another element to our being. I experience no oppression whatsoever from being gay. I am free in Christ.

    The suffering isn’t automatic with being LGBT – the suffering is usually foisted upon us by other people.

  • Don B

    Ben, I couldn’t agree more. I supported BGEA for 33 years. No more. Franklin Graham should have never been allowed to take the reigns. He is clueless about true Christianity as are John MacArthur, Al Mohler, Focus on the Family leadership, to name a few. Focus does get some things right, and I hope they do take a cue from you and others who are rejecting Grandma’s Christianity. After reading many of your blog posts and those of Paul Ellis, I agree we are on the verge of a new dawning –and it’s coming about through a grass roots movement orchestrated by God Himself using technology for His glory. Tucson is one of the least churched cities in America. I see that as a good sign. People see through the carrots and sticks that most churches use to motivate people. Jesus did it all. It’s not do, do, do but done, done , done. Once you understand you are not your sin, you begin to truly love God and begin to experience grace like never before . He does have our back. He is for us, not against us. Thanks for being a light to His light, Ben. I look forward to the death of the christianity to which we have been subjected and to the birth of Christianity that so few of us have experienced.

  • RonnyTX

    Amen Don, amen! :-)

    And just thinking about the carrots and stick approach to church, that you mention. 60 years old now; but remembering my growing up in church and my teen years there. So much I thought I knew, and yet didn’t because my church leaders taught this and that. And one or two things, that they taught as truth and which I knew was wrong; but I dared not speak up and say anything about things like that. Well, in the church, the church was really God, You knew you weren’t supposed to question anything, that you were taught there. You were simply to nod your head and believe everything said there. And if you knew somethings better and didn’t believe it all, you knew to keep your mouth shut. Well, in cases like that, the church, that is what church leaders said, that was made to be your god. And it all went by the name of Christianity, yet it had nothing in common with God/Jesus Christ.

  • ashpenaz

    I don’t understand why religious conservatives would want to claim Jesus as their leader.. He’s the wrong spokesman for their brand–like “I’m Gandhi and I’m the NRA.” or “Mother Teresa for Covergirl–because I’m worth it!” The spokesman doesn’t match the product. The religious right is really worshipping Thor–replace Thor with Jesus when they speak and you’ll see Thor makes much more sense as a spokesman for what Donald Trump and Mike Huckabee are saying–the mighty warrior who protects his own. I don’t care so much what Trump and Huckabee et. al. believe in, it just makes me furious that they attribute their beliefs to Jesus.

  • seashell

    The suffering isn’t automatic with being LGBT – the suffering is usually foisted upon us by other people…and not from God.

  • yup! makes me think of when the wiemar republic slip made way for the chancelor to rule over germany inna 1930’s. =|:•(

  • Stan Ferguson

    And yet according to Romans 8 all of nature is also in a corrupted state. But I’m not looking for an argument. And I’m not into bashing folk that believe differently than I do.
    This is how I see things now but our hope is that we’re all still learning.
    I don’t mind admitting that I have questions on the topic. Such as; where or who is the injured party? I’m not aware that it’s in any way me.
    At this point I can only assume it to be God, and that solely of the bases of my understanding of what He seems to have said on the topic.

  • RonnyTX

    You’re right Stan, in that Jesus Christ has reconciled us all back to God the Father. :-) And all will be born of God; but each one at the time of God’s choosing. And I think of Luke chapter 2, where the angel told the shepherds, that they birth of Jesus Christ was good news for all people. :-) But most of what goes by the name of Christianity, says it was only good news for a few people. Well, that’s wrong. For Jesus Christ came to seek and to save that which was lost, which is all of us and he completely, 100% succeeded! :-)

  • RonnyTX

    Stan to James:
    The way in which he made reference to LGBTQ brothers and sister seemed to imply he though such was not an example of bondage to sin. And so I searched and discovered that that does seem to be the case. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/f

    Ronny to Stan:
    Stan, when I was born of God at 16 years old, I had known I was gay for 4 years. And in being born of God, God never even brought up my being gay, much less condemned me for that or caused me to repent of such. No, what God showed me as sin in myself, was my selfrighteousness and God led me to repentance about that. The irony of this, is that I had been taught to be selfrighteous, in the local Baptist church, that I grew up in. I had been taught there, that we and those just like us, were the one true church of God. And I was taught to think of myself as better than and look down on those, who not in my church. And as I was born of God, God showed me the sinfullness in that and led me to repentance about such. A painful process; but something I much needed. :-)

  • Don B

    Hey, Ronny! I hear you : ) I actually came to know Christ when I was 30. And because it was at Calvary Chapel in the LA area where I was saved, I thought they knew everything . It took me decades to realize otherwise. Now Calvary Chapel pastors are on BGEA’s board of directors. They understand what we must do to be saved, but they have no clue as to how we are to live once we are saved. We are not our sin. That is not us. The old Don and Ronny died. Christ now wants to live through us, but We so often try to wrestle those reigns and do, do, do. But it is DONE, DONE, DONE : )
    I’m a native Texan by the way : ) But when I was six months old my family moved to the LA area. Have lived in many areas since then. Hope you get your house maintenance completed soon : )

  • Clay Tablet

    “It’s not do, do, do but done, done , done. Once you understand you are not your sin, you begin to truly love God and begin to experience grace like never before . He does have our back.”

    Amen to all of that! This truth has really hit me deep to my core recently and it has been transformational- there is nothing I can do to make God love me more and there is nothing I can do to make God love me less. It is already perfect and unconditional love. What joy! What freedom! I wish everyone would realize how much God loves each and every one of us. I think that if we all did, we might treat ourselves and one another better.

    Thank you Don!

  • Clay Tablet

    That’s where I came back to the Lord in my mid 20s- Calvary Chapel, but in Fort Lauderdale. What you say is true- I always felt that they were saying one thing- “It is done”- but that they were also still living under the law and an unwritten, tacitly or explicitly expressed, list of dos and don’ts. There was no freedom in Christ there! I’m grateful for what they did for me back then, I really needed the Lord, but it’s taken a while to unlearn so many things I picked up there without realizing it.

    The Christian life is a journey, that’s for sure! God bless.

  • Matthias Thalmann

    When can I stop being afraid of believing the wrong thing?

    As soon as your “believing the wrong thing” stops hurting other people. For example if you believe that all muslims must be expelled from America your beliefs harm them. The harm you would inflict if you ever got your way is so great that you have to be stopped.

  • Brandon Roberts

    jesus isn’t the conservative god repubican jesus is

  • M85

    But there’s also the secular left which is just as bad as the right, I think we have to be careful not to drift into that either.

  • RonnyTX

    M85:
    But there’s also the secular left which is just as bad as the right, I think we have to be careful not to drift into that either.

    Ronny to M85:
    I think there’s a lot of truth in what you say here. And as I see it, both sides are so intolerant of those who don’t agree with them.

  • RonnyTX

    Ashpenaz, you make a lot of sense here. :-) And just thinking yesterday, when do these far right wind folks talk about the Jesus Christ who tells us we are to love our enemies, pray for them and do good by them, etc? And if they never mention that, then how can they know Jesus Christ and be a believer in and follower of him? Just wondering, because the Jesus Christ I know, he said he didn’t come to condemn anyone; but instead he came to seek and to save that which was lost. And when he was being crucified, he didn’t call down fire and condemnation on the folks doing that; but instead he prayed for them and asked God the Father to forgive them.

  • RonnyTX

    Amen Clay Tablet, amen! :-)

  • RonnyTX

    Amen Don, it is done and Jesus Christ did it for us all! :-)

    And thank you about the house maintenance part. :-) I haven’t been doing much on that lately; but at least I made another start! :-) More cleaning up the outside, where I made a start on something a good while back and bit off more than I could chew! :-) LoL Well, had an idea on how I wanted to do something; but should of took it in smaller steps. :-) Which would of better suited my bank account to! LoL Now thinking, on the east side of my little house, I just want to put a little green house room, that will help some with heating in the winter. :-) And maybe a small room like that as well, on the south side of the house? Well, really need to keep that little mini house up and make some improvements on it, because as much as I love my oldest sister, I don’t want to spend all of my time over here, living at her house. Now I’m thinking part time yeah; but part time too, in my own house and on my own place. :-) And thinking about this raised bed garden area I have over there. It just puts a smile on my face as I think about things I’ve grown there, in the past. And I simply want to do some of that again. :-)

    A funeral around here yesterday, for my earliest Sunday School teacher. I wanted to go to that and I didn’t want to go to it. I ended up staying here and thinking about her some. Now that lady, she was one of my bright memories, of my earliest times in church. That when I was a little bitty kid, which has been more than a few years ago now! :-) LoL Well, I loved my Mom and I know she loved me too;
    :-) but then Sunday School teacher and another neighbor lady too, they were sort of like my 2nd and 3rd Moms. :-) Real good memories, about people like that. Those who loved you and you knew it by their words and deeds. :-)

  • Ben, I started grappling with this topic a couple years ago as an Evangelical, realizing the culture wars waged by my tribe seemed to “off” somehow. To gain perspective I read Avery Sutton’s “American Apocalypse” followed by Daniel Williams “God’s Own Party”, two books that every Evangelical should read. Yes, something is definitely happening in the American church, a “birthing” process, that is not without pain and struggle.

    The grasping for status quo dominance in society is not something new, but is intertwined with all of church history. It is the intended result of marrying church and state. The growth of the Holy Roman Empire and the power, wealth and corruption of the Catholic Church was not healthy for the body of Christ. The Reformers came along and tried to correct some theology, but the marriage of church and state was not on their reforming agenda. Again, status quo Christianity flourished.

    Instead of the Catholic Church imposing its will on others, it became Protestants who did so. When England decided the state religion was Protestant, they simply confiscated all the Catholic Church’s holdings and wealth. Priests just switched their smocks. Different name, same idea.

    Thomas Jefferson and the American founding fathers saw a need to end the petty state sponsored Christianity of Europe and built a Constitutional government that separated church and state and allowed religious freedom. In the past 150 years Evangelicals have gone to great lengths to circumvent that. Status quo Christianity dies hard!

    In my opinion the ebb and flow the history of the church on this topic is more like “global warming” than a violent change. It’s taken over 2000 years for the church to agree slavery is wrong, yet we still quibble over the civil rights of others. I am hesitantly optimistic about where the church is headed, but Baptists, Penticostals and Catholics have circled their wagons, vowing to fight to the last man against secular humanism, gun control, same sex marriage, gender equality, big government, and basically anyone with a non-white world view. Things will get ugly.

  • RonnyTX

    Amen! :-) And thinking here of 20 years ago and a Christian TV preacher that helped me so much. Does that mean he was/is right on everything? No, not by any means. But God brought me back to listening to somethings this man had to say and that just at the time I needed such. :-) And the main thing I needed to hear, was his saying that if you lack wisdom, if you want to understand something and don’t, then simply study the scriptures, asking God to guide you and show you the truth of a matter, as you do that. My, I was never taught that, in the church I grew up in! But there, I was taught to simply listen to what came from our pulpit and believe it. Believe it, just as if God was speaking directly to me. And I was never taught in church, to simply and directly ask God to show me the truth of a matter. But yet that is what God had done for me, when I was born of God, at 16 years old. Then not long after that, a huge amount of my life was simply back onto slavery, to the local church and the leaders there. God left me there for a bit too; but then the time came, when God delivered me from such. :-)

  • uglier…=|8*{

  • jesus is not antichrist! I like what ashpenaz said abt jesus not being a good representative of their brand. but who should be? =|8•0

  • ‘jesus brand’ representative of the whip & sword is ‘choice’.

  • Nomen Calatus

    So, if a muslim walked up to Mr. Corey wielding a scimitar attempting to chop Mr. Corey’s head off and Mr. Corey had access to a weapon of defense, he would not defend himself or another innocent victim? I doubt it.

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    if a muslim walked up to Mr. Corey wielding a scimitar

    Is there a reason you felt compelled to pick such a ridiculously prejudiced example? I mean, really, placing the Muslim as the bad guy and having him/her wield a scimitar of all things? Couldn’t you have picked something a little more neutral like, “If someone wielding a knife/gun/etc went up and attempted to stab/shoot/etc Mr. Corey,”?

  • Nomen Calatus

    Ok, if you prefer. Are you part of the thought police? Why are you calling my question prejudiced? Use any example you wish. I’m just curious if he would defend himself or some other innocent.

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    I’m calling your question prejudiced because it is. It, as I said, places Muslims in the “bad guy” position for no reason at all. It also makes weird assumptions about the weapon preferences of Muslims (why scimitars of all things? Because all Muslims are stereotypical preindustral Arabs?).

    And you aren’t questioning whether or not he would defend himself or others, you are expressing doubt that he would not, hence the “I doubt it.” It was what is commonly known as a rhetorical question.

    But for the record, Ben Corey believes that Christians are called to love their enemies and love their neighbors as Christians love themselves, and he believes that this cannot be done if one is killing one’s enemies (do you love yourself by killing yourself?). As such, according to my understanding of Ben’s beliefs, you cannot go after your hypothetical murderous scimitar wielding Muslim with lethal force without violating the tenets of Christ and, as such sinning. Using non-lethal force? I don’t see why not. Using lethal force? No.

  • Nixon is Lord

    Religion is boring. It’s a waste of time, money, and trouble.

  • Nixon is Lord

    Suppose you don’t call yourself Christian? Why should I disarm myself-just because you’ve got enough idiots too stupid to do anything but believe what you say?

  • Nixon is Lord

    The secular left has a lot more money and education; why wouldn’t anyone want to be one of them? Why hang around with the ignorant and poor and uneducated?

  • Nomen Calatus

    Is this violating the tenets of Christ? Ezekiel 33 “… 6 ‘But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman’s hand.’

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    I don’t see what this has to do with anything that I posted. And when you say “you,” do you actually mean “you” (Eris) or do you mean “me” (gewaite)? Because I don’t call myself a Christian; I call myself a follower of Christ. It has to do with rejecting a lot of what goes a long with what is associated with Christianity, although you probably aren’t actually interested in any of that.

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    That passage didn’t make any sense to me (I didn’t understand it) so I went to look up the whole thing and found this:

    Renewal of Ezekiel’s Call as Watchman

    33 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, speak to your people and say to them: ‘When I bring the sword against a land, and the people of the land choose one of their men and make him their watchman, 3 and he sees the sword coming against the land and blows the trumpet to warn the people,4 then if anyone hears the trumpet but does not heed the warning and the sword comes and takes their life, their blood will be on their own head. 5 Since they heard the sound of the trumpet but did not heed the warning, their blood will be on their own head. If they had heeded the warning, they would have saved themselves. 6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet to warn the people and the sword comes and takes someone’s life, that person’s life will be taken because of their sin, but I will hold the watchman accountable for their blood.’

    I fail to see how that goes against anything Ben believes.

  • Nomen Calatus

    Christ follower is now not a Christian? I’m lost.

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    Eh, you can decide for yourself if you want to call me a Christian. Some people do, some people don’t. I simply do my best to follow the commands of Jesus and leave it at that.

  • Nomen Calatus

    Well that is good enough for me. You sound like a wonderful witness to Christ. I would hope that if you or someone you love was in danger of harm you would come to their defense by all means possible. As someone who is not prone to violence of action or thought, God willing, I could do the same.

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    To be honest, I don’t know what I would do. I think it’s something that I’d probably have to face in the moment. But I’m not living my life in a way that would make any violent response reasonable, either: I don’t carry weapons, I’m not trained in violence, I don’t do anything to make violence an instinctive response. I once had someone shove a tarantula in my face and in instinctive response was to stare at it, not to scream or strike out. If faced with a violent situation, I am unlikely to be violent simply by virtue of who I am. This is unassailable fact, not moral judgement.

  • Nomen Calatus

    We have God given instincts of flight or fight when it comes to an existential threat. You didn’t feel the tarantula was a threat or maybe you’re a ninja.

  • Summers-lad

    I believe some very necessary reforms did happen in the Reformation, so it wasn’t just “more of the same”, but I do agree with you that the church/state alliance, and the institutional structure of the church, remained more or less unaffected (except for minority groups such as Anabaptists).
    I believe we are at the start of another reformation, but one which will be much more difficult to describe in a few words. I see it involving our focus (the big idea of the previous Reformation was the recovery of the truth of salvation by faith; one big idea now is grace, by which I mean recognising not only that God is a God of grace, but also the call to live grace-filled lives) as well as structures – the established churches giving way to fellowships where all members have a share in leading – as one excellent author (R Paul Stevens) calls it, abolition of the laity.
    Jesus said that the day had come when people would not worship in the Temple or on the mountain but in spirit and in truth. While I believe that people have worshipped in spirit and in truth throughout church history, this does seem to describe well the new forms of church that are appearing. That said, any form can be a living body or an empty shell.

  • Nomen Calatus

    Why the bashing of a Christ follower such as Franklin Graham?

  • Deborah

    Ironically, whether Nomen intended to or not, he/she mentioned a powerful scripture that talks about the prophet’s responsibility to warn the people of oncoming danger. If the people choose not to listen, then it’s on them. But the prophet has the responsibility to warn. Thank you Ben, for sounding the alarm.

  • Deborah

    …21″Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22″Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23″And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

  • Deborah

    Thank you, Ben. It’s time for people to get called out on their hypocritical ways. The time for silence is over. It’s a new era. Your fruit will get called out.

  • Deborah

    “Even now the ax of God’s judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire.” Luke 3:9

  • Jeff Preuss

    Why the elevation of Franklin Graham to some pedestal where he cannot be criticized? Graham has long been relying upon fear-based rhetoric to bring the Facebook likes. Should he be untouchable in your eyes?

  • Nomen Calatus

    So Samaritan’s Purse is not doing the work of Christ? Are they not the hands and feet of Christ? They bring aid and comfort to the least of these. They are bringing the Gospel to the most needy and you criticize. Reminds me of Romans 14:10–13 10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:

    “ ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,

    ‘every knee will bow before me;

    every tongue will acknowledge God.’ ”

  • Nomen Calatus

    He is more than criticizing, he is saying he is not practicing Christianity.

  • Nomen Calatus

    I’m pretty sure Jesus would put his arm around the LGBTQ “brothers and sisters” and say “go and sin no more” or “leave your life of sin”.

  • Deborah

    Nomen, it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person. (Matthew 15:11) It is the intent of our hearts and our MOTIVE behind what we do, that can defile us. So even if we sell all of our possessions and give it to the poor, if we do not have the love of Christ within our hearts and the motive behind what we do for others is not based in love, than we, ourselves, are defiled and have defiled the “good deed”. God is love and we must operate in His love and character. No amount of “good deeds” could ever make us righteous. If we are truly His children, we will embody His character and be transformed into His perfect image. And since His character is love, we should operate in His love and love should be the motive behind everything that we do. Every fruit that we bear (action that we do) should be reflective of His love.

  • Nomen Calatus

    I agree, and very biblical. So you’re saying Franklin Graham’s motives are wrong? Are they not out of love? You must have strong evidence to posit such a thought?

  • Jeff Preuss

    Yet you haven’t answered my question. Many times when people publicly disagree with Graham, his supporters jump out, declaring one shouldn’t assault a “man of God” like that. Graham and others are making statements that seem far off the message of Christ – should that not be discussed?

    Is Graham beyond reproach?

  • Deborah

    No Nomen, I post scripture and it is the Holy Spirit that convicts and exposes. I don’t defend ungodly behavior. I stand up for what is pure, holy and of God. No amount of defending will stop God’s exposure. Let the chips fall where they may.

  • Nomen Calatus

    I don’t follow Mr Graham ardently so I wouldn’t know about his supporter’s zealotry but what I do know about Samaratin’s Purse I find the organization doing the work of the Church. I wonder if Mr Corey has spoken privately to Mr Graham about the problems he has with his brand of Christianity?

  • Nomen Calatus

    Religion yes for the sake of religion. However a relationship with Christ is life transforming for time and eternity.

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    But He never did say that, now did He? Nowhere did He ever condemn homosexuality, whereas we love to ignore the things that He did condemn.

    Like the passage of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), how many poor people do we pass by every day who wish to eat at our table, either metaphorically or not so metaphorically? When the day of judgement comes, who will we be to cast stones at the LGBTQ community when the Bible speaks so clearly to us on issues like this and we fall short? How can we go after an apparent speck in someone else’s eye when we have a log in our own?

  • Bones

    And he’s right. Graham isnt practising Christianity.

  • Bones

    You are aware that Frankie Graham gets a fortune from Samaritans Purse.

    Win-win. He becomes a millionaire and his PR says how good he is.

  • Bones

    Yes it’s called reading the verses in context.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Why put brothers and sisters in quotes like that? Why bash Christ followers like that?

    (Pssst, the point of that story was when Christ said, “Neither do I condemn you…”)

  • Bones

    Protestantism is really Catholicism Lite.

    The theology of the Orthodox Church makes more sense.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Samaritan’s Purse does wonderful things to assist people in crisis the world over, posting moving items on Facebook about helping Syriam refugees in so much need.

    Then Graham follows weeks later, further whipping up terror over those same refugees, painting them as enemies, and encouraging violence.

    It’s a profound mission disconnect between the two.

  • Bones

    So what did the Disciples do when confronted with torture and death?

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    Stared that @#$%ing tarantula down!
    . . .
    . . .
    . . .
    Okay, I took that analogy a little too far . . .

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    Eris, ninja woman!

    Really, though I think my fight or flight reflex is broken. I tend to “freeze.” It peeved one of my ex-boyfriends to no end. He used to try to scare me occasionally (he thought it would be funny) and I just failed to react at all. It actually made him nervous. “What if someone tried to abduct you?!” he would say, and I would just kind of shrug at him.

  • Lol, Good one! I need a good book on the split between the eastern and western branches of the early church. Any suggestions?

  • I’m with Jeff. Why do so many Christians home in on “sin no more?” Two points always overlooked: No one else there was without sin, and the only one there that was sinless and had legitimate grounds to condem her said neither do I. So unless you are without sin, stop throwing stones.

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    You’re acting as if being ignorant, poor, and uneducated is some kind of sin to be ashamed or disease that might be catching. It is neither. Being properly funded and educated are privileges that we should be trying to be spread to all people, not scorning some people for not having already achieved.

  • Froderic Frankenstein

    Jesus, the Jewish rabbi, would not have promulgated homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle. Yes, we have beams in our eyes, but the Lord tells us that once we have taken them out, we will be better prepared to speak to our brothers and sisters about their specks. He never said to ignore the speck.

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    Jesus, the Jewish rabbi, would not have promulgated homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle.

    You might as well say that Jesus, a Jewish rabbi, would not have promulgated performing work on the Sabbath, and yet Matthew 12:1-8; Mark 2:23-28; Luke 6:1-5.

    Jesus, law breaker! Dun dun dun!

  • Jeff Preuss

    “Lifestyle” again. It never ends.

  • Froderic Frankenstein

    Jesus argued that acts of mercy and healing were allowed on the Sabbath, because it was the right thing to do for those who were ill. That is not the same thing. Nice dodge, though.

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    You didn’t even read the passages! They weren’t about healing, they were about going out, gathering grain, and eating them! Wah! I’m so disappointed that I went to all that trouble and you didn’t read them!

  • Froderic Frankenstein

    Many of his references were in regard to healing. Yes, you are right, the one you cited was not. You still, however have not addressed the issue: we are not told to ignore the speck in our brother’s eye. Two thousand years the Holy Spirit waited to address the issue? Or are we just following the spirit of the age?

  • Froderic Frankenstein

    Funny, when I was young, that is what the gay community wanted it to be called. It never ends.

  • Jeff Preuss

    “Matthew 7:5
    You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”
    I guess the problem is your assumption that you’ve actually completely removed the plank from your eye to allow you to go after my speck.

  • Froderic Frankenstein

    And you missed the point where he said, “sin no more.”

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough. There are two points to my post.

    1) I have addressed the issue: Jesus came and fulfilled the law. Just as we are no longer bound to stone people who pick up sticks on the Sabbath (Numbers 15:32-36), no longer are we bound by a bunch of other stuff. Yay! So no more of this “Man shall not lie with man” crap that people love to rush around with unless you don’t pick up sticks on the Sabbath, na? Also, don’t wear clothing of mixed fiber, stay away from women who are on their periods, etc etc etc.

    2) Until we get the log out, we are to ignore the speck. Do you have the log out? Are you sinless? No? Still a log in there? Hmmmm?

  • Jeff Preuss

    As long as you continue to try to make people like me “other” to be shamed, no, it won’t end.

  • Froderic Frankenstein

    True, there is danger in that. That is why we are called to one body. To help each other in such cases. And why the Bible is our guidebook for the will of God. And that guide book calls us to rebuke sexual sin of all types, not just the ones we are not okay with.

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    When my dad was young, black people were called “Negroes.” Later, when they didn’t want to be called that anymore, he objected. Why should he change what the called them just on their say so? “Negroes” was what he had always called them, and it was correct! Later he changed his mind when he met someone even older then himself who made the same argument about “Nigger.”

  • Jeff Preuss

    I didn’t miss that point, but that was not the point of the story. Jesus stopped the ones who wished to stone the woman, reminding them it is not their place, since they are not without sin.

    You are not Jesus: you are not sinless. Your takeaway that you get to point out what you perceive as sin in others means you missed it entirely.

  • Froderic Frankenstein

    Nobody is talking about stoning homosexuals. But the Bible is very clear about sexual sin. We are to follow Jesus’ example and tell them to their way and sin no more. You are only following the half of the verse you like. I am certainly not claiming to be without sin, but as I told Jeff Preuss, that is why we are called to one body. We are supposed to loving discuss here things, so that we all come to a greater knowledge of truth. There is no promotion of homosexuality anywhere in scripture.

  • Froderic Frankenstein

    I do not make you or anyone else “other,” nor have I shamed you. You know nothing about me, or what my sexuality is.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Yet, there is valid debate about whether it is sinful sexual behavior. Until you have fully removed the log from your own eye, and until the debate is fully settled, I will thank you to not rebuke me for my sexual “sins.”

  • Jeff Preuss

    I call BS, just based on your statements here. Calling my life a “lifestyle” furthers exactly what you just denied doing.

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    1) I don’t see that the Bible condemns committed, consensual homosexual relationships in the NT at all. OT, maybe. NT? Nope.

    2) I don’t see where it says that we are to follow Jesus’s example and to tell them to go on their way and sin no more, either.

    3) I think there is all kind of promotion of homosexuality in scripture, assuming there is love in it, because scripture promotes love. ^_^

  • seashell

    In the past 150 years Evangelicals have gone to great lengths to circumvent that. Status quo Christianity dies hard!

    Any reason you came up with 150 years? As far as I know, Christians have been trying to circumvent the church/state wall even as the Constitution was being written – about 226 years ago.

    The National Journal’s Ronald Brownstein recently printed previously unpublished data from Pew’s massive 2014 Re­li­gious Land­scape sur­vey. For the first time, white Christians have fallen below 50% to 46% of US adults and these people are increasingly turning to the political right, but their children are not. Both groups are one and the same at this point.

    I’m wondering if these factors may hasten the “birthing” process of Ben’s (and yours) Christianity. The demographics of both the Republican party and the Evangelical Christianity of the Culture Wars do not favor sustainability. When the wagons can no longer complete a circle, then what?

  • Nomen Calatus

    Sin is what separates us from God. I am a major league sinner. But since I confess that sin to God and accept Christ’s death on the cross as payment for my sin, I can then be a part of the Kingdom of God. I will never throw a stone at someone who is living in unrepentant rejection of God’s love. I was there and it would be wholly un-Christ like to tell someone who is not repentant of their sin to keep on sinning and you’ll be just fine. That sin can be any sin. The article says Mr Graham denounces LGBQT. What Mr. Graham is saying to anyone living in darkness is there is another way. That is exactly what Jesus was doing with the adulteress who was about to be stoned. No Christian can condemn a sinner, but it is irresponsible and unloving to not speak truth to the lost. Not with a self righteous attitude but with love. My prayer is that all come to Christ in repentance.

  • seashell

    But didn’t Jesus keep it simple and say that the two greatest things you can do are (1) love God, and (2) love your neighbor as yourself? He didn’t say that love your neighbor means getting all up in their sex lives, or only if they’re Christian and cut their grass timely, or any other condition.

    ETA: If I had faith in God, seems like I’d have enough faith to believe that God will sort all this out without my speck wiping help, and all I’d have to do is love God and my neighbor.

  • Nomen Calatus

    Yes and by defiling the body with adultery, homosexuality or any sexual sin is in direct conflict with both of those commandments.

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    So let them get married, and no more adultery! Problem solved. ^_^

  • I was making an arbitrary time estimate based on the American Civil War, which was fought over a number of different issues, with the issue of slavery being foremost. There were religious overtones on both sides, both bolstering views on slavery supported by Scripture. Those on the “left” of the issue had more of a “religious humanist” approach appealing more generally to God given rights, while those on the “right” had plenty of Scripture passages to support slavery from a literalist hermeneutic. It also had political overtones based on “states rights” as well. Sound familiar? What followed the abolition of slavery here, was a determined effort by the religious right to circumvent that outcome and return to what had previously been the status quo.

    Your point on the trends show a hard fact that Evangelicals are sorely aware of. I have read a number of articles in CT, Fuller magazine, etc., admitting that the church on the right has obviously done some things wrong, and that they are losing the “culture wars.” The interpretations on the right and the left vary considerably, with those leaning towards fundamentalism seeing a leaner, purer born-again Evangelicalism arising out of the ashes, and those leaning towards progressivism seeing a new, more inclusive Evangelicalism with goals more inline with progressive thought.

    You are right. Sustainability of hyper-conservative Christianity is simply not feasible, nor is it supported in church history. The general trend seems to be (thankfully) towards inclusion, grace and forgiveness. Fundamentalism will be increasingly marginalized and irrelevant, in my opinion, with an over developed persecution complex maintaining groups like Westbro Baptist. Over all, I think we are beginning to see a softening of the heart of conservatism orchestrated by the Holy Spirit.

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    I need to go to bed (took medication, am now losing coherence) so I’ll try to keep this simple.

    You do not follow all of Jesus’s commandments. You don’t even try to. I don’t say that as a holier than thou accusation, but as a statement of fact. I mean, do you give to everyone who asks of you, and if someone takes something from you, do you not ask for it back (Luke 6:30)? I know I don’t live that way. And if someone where to sue you for your shirt, would you hand over your coat also (Matthew 5:40)? I know I wouldn’t. I’d make excuses. I’d fall short. And I’ll bet my buttons that you do, too. And you can say you “repent” of this all you like, but what does that mean if you don’t even try to do differently?

    It’s the same for homosexuality (which I continue to maintain isn’t a sin). If you get to say, “No,” to people who ask of you and defend yourself against lawsuits even though these are explicitly against the words of Christ, then why shouldn’t homosexuals get to engage in loving, committed relationships despite the fact that Christ has nothing to say against this? If you get to fall short in the past, in the present, and in the future all while planning your life around knowing you are going to fall short in this manner, why shouldn’t other people?

  • Jeff Preuss

    “No Christian can condemn a sinner, but it is irresponsible and unloving to not speak truth to the lost.”
    Here’s some truth for you, then. I am NOT living in darkness. I came to Christ a long time ago, and He’s still here, right with me.

  • Herm

    Froderic, Eris was so right on and what she tried to share with you was not a “dodge”.

    The Messiah Jesus is not and never was a Jewish Rabbi. As the Son of God with all authority over heaven and earth Jesus is my Rabbi. The Hebrew definition of Rabbi is “master” and/or “teacher” no matter what religion they may be members of.

    This is the penalty that a Jewish authority was to inflict on anyone who worked on the Sabbath:

    While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-36

    Moses assembled the whole Israelite community and said to them, “These are the things the LORD has commanded you to do: For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a day of sabbath rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it is to be put to death. Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.” Exodus 35:1-3

    The Pharisees knew this and Jesus responded in the following scripture:

    At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

    He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.” Matthew 12:1-8

    Why are you so presumptuous to condemn the innocent who are more than willing to show you mercy for your childish bully behavior?

    This is how clear Jesus is in His teaching to His disciples (students) that sums up the entire ministry of God to Man:

    So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. Matthew 7:12

    Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matthew 22:37-40

    Where did Jesus ever go out of His way to tell “others” they were sinning and going to hell? If you would notice in the four gospels that He had woe (feelings of grief) for those who were not righteous enough to enter into heaven. One character of offenders depicted, apparently sinning, was the teachers of the law.

    You’re teaching your church’s law and not teaching all nations to become students of the Teacher.

    Christ Jesus is not a theory to play with other’s lives in a debate of who’s the greatest or least sinner from which the winner gets eternal life. Jesus is very real and teaching today all His little sister and brother disciples. By your fruit you clearly do not know Him as the only Teacher in your heart and mind.

    If you hang in here I would highly suggest that you listen to Eris and many more here who each look directly to Jesus to teach them. They are not dodging the Spirit of truth as you are. Then you too might become a little child of God learning from the Master, the only Rabbi. But only if you are willing, also, to pick up your cross of abject humility that all might live to learn to come to Jesus as their Lord today. His fruit is founded on love and not condemnation. Honestly, in your heart and mind is yours? … or … Are you trying to shame merciful others into joining your religion because you don’t have an actual relationship with the High Priest of God?

    You can meet Him and know Him for certain today. You only have to ask, seek and knock directly to God as a little child who knows (s)he knows nothing relative to the Teacher and benevolent creator God of all we have and are. That is my hope for you.

  • Nomen, no one is arguing that we are to ignore moral failure or active rebellion towards God. Repentance is turning away from actions displeasing to God. Check. I too pray that people who deny God access to their lives, may find the “abundant life” Christ offers.

    Mr. Graham’s hermeneutical approach to Scripture is based on “the plain reading” of Scripture, coupled with the belief in “plenary inspiration”, that is, every word of the original texts were overseen/inspired by God. This is commonly referred to as inerrancy as the two views often go hand in hand. That every word of Scripture is to be revered as God’s Word sounds like a good thing, and it definitely simplifies authority of Scripture. But, something very bad can happen when plenary inspiration is combined with a literal interpretation of Scripture, as I have suggested in some of my other posts. The defense of slavery is probably the most obvious, but the hermeneutical approach has been used to defend beating children and the subservient position of women to men.

    It is also the primary tool used to combat Gay rights and SSM. The Bible, when read uncritically, without an honest look at the two cultural climates at the time the “clobber passages” were written, as well as a disregard for constitutional law and rights of “all” individuals, leads to a literalist understanding of the Bible that can miss the “intent” of Scripture.

    For example, the laws in Leviticus were written to safeguard the Hebrews from contamination or participation in the cultic practices of their neighbors. SS sexual acts were a part of the surrounding culture. In Paul’s time it was a loose sexual hedonism that permeated Roman culture, SS was both consensual as well as not. The question then becomes, when we see happy, devoted (and now increasingly married) SS couples are we seeing the same thing as what was described in the Bible? Certainly, if you’ve seen a Gay Pride parade you might be inclined to think nothing has changed. But to paint all Gays with the same brush, and attribute a “lifestyle” to all is to not know Gays.

    Is there room to understand covenantal relations between loving SS partners as fitting the Biblical picture of God looking for a suitable helpmate for Adam, that looks past the procreational aspect of heterosexual marriage and understands that a suitable partner may not be one of the opposite sex? That a SS partner can be just as “complimentary” as a opposite sex partner? Just some things for you to ponder.

  • Right on!

  • ;)

  • seashell

    Ah, I should have realized that the reference was to the civil war, especially in context of today’s civil rights battles. I was just curious, as in I thought I missing something. Thank you.

    So some of the hyper-ridiculousness (Trump, carpet-bomb Cruz, Kim Davis hurrahs, guns everywhere) comes from the Evangelical awareness that the trend is not their friend?Because as bad as its been for the last ±15 years, the culture wars seem to have gone from hostile to stark raving mad, with resemblances to some of the not-so-nice parts of the Bible. No Jesus love at all, except in rote praise.

    I don’t see a softening of the heart of conservatism as much as a mad dash to sanity by those who can’t do the crazy anymore. But I’m always willing to change my theories if the facts fit.

  • seashell

    Way to go, Herm!

  • Comrade Carrot-Blog Vegetarian

    Fantastic post Benjamin.

    Thank you.

  • Ah Trump! I think Ted Cruz will eventually overtake him as he is more acceptable in his beliefs to evangelicals than Trump. However, since evangelicalism, as we currently know it is dying, I think Hillary we be our first woman president (I like Bernie better, but, oh well). The hostility and vehement attitudes bordering on hatred have diminished as SSM became the law of the land.

    What we are seeing now, I think, follows the same pattern as followed abolition in the US: evangelicals will look for ways to circumvent the law, arguing for defense of religious belief and states rights. It is sad that evangelicals who buck this trend and attempt to be inclusive are generally removed from teaching positions (Dr. Daniel Kirk is one example) or no longer made to feel welcome in their denominations. If differing viewpoints aren’t allowed dialogue dies and change within evangelicalism is stifled.

  • seashell

    …we are not told to ignore the speck in our brother’s eye.

    Did you know that the eyes are subject to moles, just like the rest of our bodies? They look just like specks, but are normal and common in people. So I’m wondering how you can determine sinful specks versus normal specks and if you really know the difference?

  • Froderic Frankenstein

    Such nonsense. A lifestyle is a way of living. If you want to be offended, go ahead.

  • seashell

    I’m for Bernie also, but predict Hillary for the win. And the rest of the world will sigh with relief if it’s either of them!

    It’s so strange about the inclusive stuff. My understanding is that Jesus embodied inclusive, so why it’s given short shrift is still a mystery to me.

  • Froderic Frankenstein

    Well, some translations use the word slivers as opposed to beams which to me makes more sense. Jesus clearly used the wood motif to compare the size of sin, so to speak. You are comparing cheese and chalk. It is quite a stretch and you are clearly reporting to make the point that homosexuality is normal for some people. Show me where the Bible states that and I will concede.

  • Froderic Frankenstein

    Jesus did not start his ministry until the age of thirty, because you could not be a teacher of he people of Israel until that age. Yes, he was and is the son of God. He was also the king of Israel. Are you going to argue that as the Son of God he was not really a king? I seriously doubt you would make the point. He was a teacher of the people had his own disciples and guess what? They called him “rabbi”!

    If disagreeing with you makes me a bully, so be it. Your accusation that I do not know him is ridiculous as you cannot know my heart. Nor do you know anything of my background, the sins from which the Lord has delivered me, or how much he means to me. Your snarky reply to my comment is every bit what you accuse me of.

  • Froderic Frankenstein

    I don’t believe I directly rebuked you. I stated homosexuality was a sin and referred to it as a lifestyle, which offended you. You chose to be offended; that is your issue, not mine. If you can show me any proof that Paul’s (since he made the most references to the subject) contemporaries understood his words the way you do or that there was even any debate over what he meant, then I will concede. As far as I know, his contemporaries clearly understood him to be condemning homosexual acts. Jesus, of course, does not condemn people, but that does not make their sins allowable.

    Most of all, it strikes me that the “debate” is only forty years old or so. At no time in history did the church ever waver on the issue. It only came about at the time of the sexual revolution and gay rights movement, which leads me to the conclusion that it is generated by the spirit of the age not the Spirit of God.

  • Froderic Frankenstein

    P.S. Are you sure I am teaching my church’s law? Or am I perhaps a person whom God called out of homosexuality and it is by personal revelation to me that I say these things? Again you cannot know, because you do not know me.

  • Herm

    “rabbi” means “teacher”

    Christ Jesus is my, and all my little sibling disciples’, Brother. We share the same Father and abide out of love by our Father’s will as we learn. What does that makes us?

    The Israel you think you know did not accept Jesus as king. It was a mockery by the Jewish authorities to place the sign over His head, “King of the Jews”.

    Jesus is my Lord with all authority over heaven and on earth. Jesus serves to wash the feet of those He rules commanding only that they love one another.

    I do not know your heart, He does, but I certainly know the fruit produced from the vine. You do not know the vine.

    Sin against God is when you are not abiding in direct relationship with God. A child of God, which is spoken of in the Bible, is one who is actually in God and God is in them. You are not in relationship with God if you think Jesus delivered you from anything your church might define as sin. Jesus can baptize (whelm) little children who come to Him with the Dove that each and every heart and mind within God is within each other as one.

    I will try to make this easier for you to understand your only glory is coming from the religious order who taught you to go out to accuse others of sin. This is a repeat question I would like you to answer, please:

    “Where did Jesus ever go out of His way to tell “others” they were sinning and going to hell?”

  • Herm

    If you prayed the gay away you were not gay.

  • seashell

    Why should the Bible have to state that same sex attraction is normal? It doesn’t state that moles in the eye are normal and yet nobody quibbles with that, even though much is made of specks. My point is that there is much we have gained in knowledge that is useful and shouldn’t be abandoned just because it’s different in the Bible. It seems like people get lost in the trees because they don’t take into account the overall forest.

    It’s hard to believe that God is so overly concerned with sex that all else pales in comparison. The sexual “sins” sound like human inventions designed around the ideals of an orderly world from a couple of thousand years ago.

  • Froderic Frankenstein

    Given that Jesus rebuked both the conservative Pharisees and Hellenizedm less traditional Sadducees, I doubt Jesus would join either camp.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Anyone who says homosexuality is not sin–is truly hating–You’re encouraging, endorsing what God warns not to do throughout the Bible. It’s not being loving or tolerant. There’s true deception going on here, and this author is a promoter. Any truly born again believers, that are walking in faith with Holy Spirit guidance, would be wise to move on from this writer. Many, thank goodness, see the error of his teaching.

  • seashell

    Many, thank goodness see the error of his teaching.

    Many? I count 3 or 4.

  • Froderic Frankenstein

    So, how does one know God? Do we now get to allow Grace be a case for licentiousness? Wheee would that end? It seems to me hat the Bible speaks more than once of “people doing wat seems good in heir own eyes” more than once and always negatively.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    It is in scripture, that all scripture is inspired “God breathed”. The New Testament is our instruction book, and Romans 1alone makes it perfectly clear–same sex is a sin and wrong. Jesus himself said man shall leave his mother and father and cling to his wife. Only Satan himself is implanting in minds the lies that he has instigated because he comes to destroy and turn people away from Gods way. Why did God destroy Sodom & G? Because once again the pride and arrogance of humanity challenging even God Himself and desiring to change the function of man and woman–In Gods image–a sin God won’t tolerate . Repentance seriously needed.

  • Froderic Frankenstein

    You set yourself up as fruit inspector and then decide what my fruit is. The truth is you and I disagree theologically on an interpretation of scripture which leads you to make accusations about things you cannot know. Since fruit develops over time, you are hardly in a position to decide if my fruit is non-existent, immature, etc.

    You accuse me of not walking in love and yet you accuse me. And you say I cannot know the Lord, because I disagree with you. You fail to see that you are guilty of not walking in the spirit of love in doing this, yet have little compunction of making that accusation against me. Am I to assume then that you lack the very fruit that you accuse me of lacking? Is condescension a fruit of the Spirit that I know nothing of? Apparently you need to take your own advice and look at a couple of beams.

    Lastly, off the top of my head, Jesus clearly asked the Pharisees, “How will you escape the condemnation of hell?” As I recall, he did this after listing how they abused the Law of God for their own profit. Pretty sinful, behavior, I believe. So yes, he did warn of judgment.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Obviously u haven’t read Romans 1

  • otrotierra

    No Sharon, Jesus was silent on the subject of homosexuality. Please stop lying.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Promoting homosexuality is destructive and hateful–but of course that’s just what God says–to not do it! Old and new! Not sure what you’re reading

  • Froderic Frankenstein

    In short, Herm, you are just like the Pharisees you despise.

  • Yes, Jesus embodied inclusive. I can see him being much more comfortable having dinner with tax collectors, prostitutes and Gays than, say, Ted Cruz!

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    There is no valid debate! And no–the no log in eye is just an excuse to ignore ones sin–because of course–you’ll find some kind of “log” in everyone’s eye–especially those that point u to truth. Read Romans 1. Repentance is a healthy thing.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Truth to many is difficult. We hate to give up our sin.

  • Herm

    Froderic, Jesus the Messiah did not go looking up the Pharisees in their place of worship to ask them, “How will you escape the condemnation of hell?” Read all of Matthew 23 in context and you will know just what Jesus thought of teachers of the law.

    Froderic, you cast verbal stones at those you believe are sinning. I am drawing a line in the sand to protect those you seek to stone in God’s name and in the example that my Teacher gave me long before I knew Him personally.

    I am telling you to go and sin no more against these who mean you no harm and have not sought you out. You do not know what you are doing.

    As an ignorant teacher of the law judging in Jesus’ name how will you escape the condemnation of hell?

    “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” Luke 6:37-38

  • Nomen Calatus

    If you are talking about two men having a platonic relationship fine. But nature dictates that homosexuality is unnatural. The parts don’t fit. You can do all the hermeneutical gymnastics you want to try and convince yourself that your deviancy is okay with God. I’m just trying to bring truth to the discussion. You can take it or leave it. I hope you listen to the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

  • Jeff Preuss

    I am a truly born again believer, walking in faith with Holy Spirit guidance. And I’m gay. Have a nice day.

  • seashell

    But nature dictates that homosexuality is unnatural.

    Same sex pairs occur in nature, just as in humans. So it is not unnatural. In fact, it’s normal.

  • seashell

    +10 :-)

  • Frod, the fact that the debate is relatively new is irrelevant. It took the church over 2000 years to decide slavery was wrong. One reason it took so long was the “proof-text” hermeneutics you seem to be espousing. I think the way Paul’s contemporaries understood SS sex probably was very similar to the aversion you show towards it. Preston Sprinkle has a number of posts on the matter on the evangelical channel here.

    For me, as well as many others here, the question really isn’t about whether Paul condemns SS sexual activity, but whether SSM fits the context Paul was addressing. Or is it fair to simplify Gays as to all fitting the cultural picture of Roman hedonism? Also, your statements about “lifestyle” betray a dishonest assessment of Gays, an oversimplification. Evangelicals rankle at being called bigots, but don’t seem to understand that one needs to stop being one before people will stop calling them one.

  • seashell

    So, how does one know God?

    As someone with way more knowledge than me said, “By asking, seeking and knocking directly to God…”, from the heart, I think. Not by getting involved with other people’s sex lives over unknown specks, which seems like an awful way to live your life, anyway. Surely God wants something better for his children than that.

  • I fail to see what “unnatural” has to do with it. Flying an airplane is unnatural. The human desire for companionship and love is “natural” and God-given. It would be unnatural for a Gay man or woman to marry the opposite sex, as there would not be a heartfelt desire to be in that kind of a relationship. Your blanket statement, and that of others I’ve read, where the only option for Gays is to remain celibate is unnatural. It requires people to deny the God-given desire for intimacy that almost everyone is hard-wired for. I too, hope you will listen to the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

  • Bones

    Yes you do.

  • Bones

    Gay lifestyle is no different to evangelical Christians lifestyle.

  • Bones

    Its not a debate. Just you slinging mud.

    Of course Jesus was talking about others, not you…

    It’s people like you and their supposed ‘truth’, which is subjective to your own bigotry, who keep people OUT of the kingdom of God.

  • Bones

    Yet again society has to drag Christianity out of the darkness into the light.

    Its a nonsense argument that just because Christians did it for one or two thousand years that it has any ‘truth’.

    Heck for most of that time Christians were killing each other as well as gays. No wonder you guys hate equality.

  • Bones

    Obviously you havent read the gospels.

  • Bones

    Also says women were second class. And slaves were ok. And its ok to kill gays, unbelievers, people working on the sabbath….

    I take it you dont touch people during your period lest you make them unclean.

  • Bones

    I think thats you, you see in the mirror.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    You’re not gay. You’re involved in sexual sin and Jesus warns against it. It doesn’t matter if you say I’m born again if you haven’t surrendered your deliberate disobedience and rebellion to God, no words help–unless it’s turning away from our sin in repentance. But, even if Jesus came and knocked on your door and told you to your face, sounds to me like you’re determined to hold on to satans lies –and eventual destruction. romans says not only are they guilty who practice the perversion, but those who endorse are just as guilty–no thx! If you don’t believe the bible but just want to twist it’s meaning, I’m sorry for you. It even tells us how God responds to that mindset.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    So you’re saying Jesus didn’t endorse the New Testament writers? What the y wrote wasn’t inspired of God? Jesus isn’t God come to earth? Your argument is goofy. I’m lying about this?

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Many–wrong word. A few–but as I spent a little more time reading some of the posts, I see the leanings of the majority on this site–and I know I’ll never read his stuff again. He has nothing really scripturally sound to say –and a bunch of followers who have the same leanings, that want their own rules–not God’s.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    You don’t understand Jesus nor the inspired word of God–and Jesus is the Word–truth revealed to us. Read Romans 1 of His word. Jesus said everything he needed–it’s as clear as day.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Good then, like all of us, repent–turn from sin–and quit challenging the very God who made u in His image. You’re not God and you don’t have the authority to change His design to be used pervertedly! That’s why He destroyed a couple cities. The epitome of pride and arrogance. But do what u want. God has warned us.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    You’re talking the theocracy God established with Israel–let’s stick with NT for now–Jesus taught many of the writers, and the Holy Spirit inspired each as God gave us His truths. Romans is very clear on the sin of homosexuality. Just like sins of murder and adultery from the OT were sins–they still are now. As a matter of fact the NT writer talks of how the coverts to Christ were once thiefs, adulterers, homosexuals-etc., but since they surrendered to God, they’re no longer these things–They were freed from bondage. Come on–let’s not try to convince people sin is acceptable! That’s hateful and destructive!

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Obviously you understand nothing of the theocracy God established with Israel and think God should submit to your limited reasoning–because you know more than the creator of the universe! He doesn’t really have to explain to you His purposes for commanding what He commanded in the OT. You for now need to focus–as do we all –on the inspired Word that the NT speaks to us in evidence and confirmation Of Jesus’resurrection–He is the Word–truth–and part of that truth is clear in Romans 1–homosexuality is still a perversion of Gods creation and forbidden.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    How about the murder and adultery crap and child sacrifice?? Are those moral laws that Jesus fulfilled that have no purpose either in NT Jesus time? Your reasoning is nonsense.

  • Clay Tablet

    Imperfect human beings, perfect God. We do our best and God covers the rest. :-)

  • Bones

    Here’s news….you’re not God either.

    Last I heard it was the Holy spirit who convicts people not hysterical rantings and ravings.

    In fact you are the one who wants to change what God created.

  • Bones

    “Why did God destroy Sodom & G?”

    Are you people so dumb to equate gangbanging and rape with consensual monogamous loving relationships?

  • Bones

    Speaking of goofy, that didn’t make sense.

  • Bones

    Interesting I heard a pastor preach on 2 Corinthians 3 on the weekend. Christianity is not about rules and the Old Testament rules (including the ten commandments) are death. We all break them.

    It’s our relationship with God and one another that counts.

  • Bones

    Obviously you understand nothing about the context in which the Old Testament was compiled.

    Now follow Paul’s advice for women and sit down and shut up because you don’t have a clue what you are on about.

  • Bones

    Romans is not clear at all. It’s been interpreted in different ways by different authors.

    Not that it matters. I don’t cherry pick Paul like you do.

    But hey these were the days when you could own slaves and still be in the kingdom.

    You really do need to take Paul’s advice on women teaching.

  • Bones

    I’m sorry for you that you get your jollies over putting others down. Maybe you think about shagging other guys and sheilas but you know, it doesn’t bother me.

    The only one lying here – is you.

    Reminds me of the church where a gay guy was kicked out and as he went home he met Jesus. Jesus told him not to worry. They kicked Him out too.

    Sounds familiar…..

  • Bones

    Hey I’ll be honest unlike you guys.

    I will react violently if my loved ones are attacked. If my gay friends are attacked by gay hitting pricks, I will put my life on the line and defend them.

    And I am aware that that is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

    But then I don’t look at God as Judge and Executioner.

  • Bones

    There are a couple of things that gel with me.

    One, the concept of God as Energy fits in with the science which exists today.

    Two, the idea that the death of Jesus wasn’t an atonement to please God’s wrath but for the healing of humanity, As one Orthodox Archbishop said , the difference between Western Christianity is that Western Christianity set itself up as a law court whereas Eastern Christianity saw itself as a hospital for the sick.

    Three, God saved us from Death – it wasn’t the punishment which Catholics and Protestants attribute to death.

    Four, the denunciation of a literal place called hell. I’m pretty sure that Rob Bell was influenced by Orthodox theology when he wrote Love Wins. Heaven and Hell are the same place = to be in the eternal presence of the eternally loving God.

    Five, Orthodox theology has no premise of Original Sin.

    This is a pretty good summary of Western Christianity by an Orthodox theologian.

    As he says who can love a God who is really our enemy.

    http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/the-river-of-fire-kalomiros/

    It’s not perfect. But it’s food for thought.

  • Bones
  • Bones

    Notice which came first.

    He said “I don’t condemn you” first.

    Then He said “Go and sin no more”.

    This is a God who doesn’t condemn people for sin.

    Maybe you could learn from that……

  • Bones

    I hate to break it to you but your rules aren’t God’s rules.

  • Realist1234

    Noone has a right to cast doubt on your faith, salvation or your position as a child of God. I am a child of God also, gay and came to the conclusion many years ago that gay sex/relationships are not ‘good’ in our Father’s eyes. I have yet to see a persuasive argument for such relationships. We’ll both know for sure when we meet Him face to face!

  • You’re forgetting the fundamental problem of: “Why should the secular civil authorities mandate what is or is not ‘sin’, and why should ‘sin’ the same as ‘crime’ so that Christians and non-Christians alike have to obey Christian edicts like it or not?”

    There’s more basis in the actual gospels for viewing in-hospitality a sin than there is homosexuality, but surely you’d agree that the fellow who says to a poor beggar “Sorry, I just don’t have room” shouldn’t be dragged before the police, brought up on charges of being a greedy sinner, and put into jail. Nor should that fellow be punished by denying them some kind of basic civil right. It goes on. Why can’t this common sense logic also apply to homosexuality, should it be a sin (which is hardly not in doubt)?

    I should note that I see it perfectly fine if some Christians choose to believe that homosexuality is a sin and say so. It’s bad when the beliefs are justified by lies, associated with lies, and so on such that they become a part of government policy. And even just regular day-to-day telling of lies is also a problem. As an analogy, I don’t see Jewish-Americans trying to make working on their holy day a crime, as applied to everyone. Nor are Jewish-Americans saying that their dietary restrictions must be followed because there’s something chemically wrong with pork, shrimp, etc that gives you long-term poisoning. The same common sense ought to exist among Christians.

  • >’nature dictates that homosexuality is unnatural’
    In nature, homosexuality and bisexuality is as natural as breathing and eating. That gay and bi acting animals exist has been documented countless times. I don’t even have to link you. This takes two seconds of using Google. To deny reality like you’re doing is pretty sad.

    As well, ‘nature’ has no relationship whatsoever to ‘sinfulness’. Lying, cheating, murdering, and committing rape are all common as just sitting around in the animal kingdom, but you’d be hard pressed to refer to any of them as good things. Wouldn’t you? Sheesh!

    >’The parts don’t fit.’
    Yes, they do. This isn’t even an argument. This is straight up denial of factual reality even worse than the above case. Water is wet. The Pope is Catholic. The parts fit. It’s all also completely irrelevant in terms of ‘What is sin?’ because, say, the genitals of a man cheating on his wife fit perfectly with the genitals of a prostitute that said man is hiring– it would still be generally regarded as ‘sinful’. Again: Sheesh!

    >’deviancy’
    Anything that is not statistically normal is ‘deviant’. You’re being ‘deviant’ by using your own personal online commenting account. You’re being ‘deviant’ by reading English, speaking English, using the internet, being interested in Disqus, and by being a Christian. Most people in the world do not do any of those things and are otherwise not related to them.

    Also, again, this has nothing to do with ‘sinfulness’. Someone who goes through their entire life being a caring, generous, and positive individual who gives a lot to charity and rarely raises his voice even… is an extremely abnormal, unnatural, and uncommon deviant. The vast majority of people don’t live like that. But does that objective fact mean that our hypothetical saint should be considered ‘sinful’? For happening to be way outside of the normal scope of things? Once again: Sheesh!

  • Okay, one can certainly argue that homosexuality is a sin, and one can view it as akin to other sins such as not showing hospitality, not honoring your parents, and so on as things that regular people will do– not making them subhumans for doing so, but just making them fallible– and they should ask for forgiveness. Fine. You can take that view if you want.

    What you can’t do is support your position by making lies, things that are objectively, factually not correct. And saying that people who aren’t opposed to homosexuality are ‘full of hatred’ is beyond wrong. It’s insane. That’s a kind of lie that’s so flagrant and so terrible that you should be able to see what’s wrong with it even if you apply just the teensiest bit of real logic and reason to it.

    Some early Christians thought that eating pork was fine. Some didn’t agree. I don’t recall either group of Christians believing that the other were horrific monsters that were full of hatred and thus must be stopped at all costs. Come on.

  • Brilliant. And it’s too true.

  • RonnyTX

    Nomen:
    I’m pretty sure Jesus would put his arm around the LGBTQ “brothers and sisters” and say “go and sin no more” or “leave your life of sin”.

    Ronny to Nomen:
    Do you reckon Jesus would say the same, to the heterosexual brothers and sisters? :-) If so, then I think a good question would be, why does it surely seem so many on that side, think they’re better than anyone who is gay, bisexual, transgendered, etc? Well, when we start thinking about and talking about how good we are, in comparison to those sinners out there, then that reminds me of the Pharisee religious leaders, of 2,000 years ago. And that’s the one group of people, that Jesus Christ jumped all over, as he told them they weren’t near as good, as they obviously thought they were. And they were very precise about keeping the letter of the law; but they far missed keeping the spirit of the law. And the spirit of the law, was to simply love. To let love guide all of thoughts and actions and that so, be it towards yourself or any other person. For as the scripture well tells us, love is the fulfilling of the law. And lest any of us think we can brag about ourself in that area, we need to keep in mind that the only one who did that perfectly, was Jesus Christ. And we do such so imperfectly, that he needed to go to the cross for us all and take all of our sins upon himself. And that he surely did, because he loves us all. :-) But then what do I know, seeing I am one of those sinful homosexual?! :-)

  • tsig

    You’re gods’ special snowflake?

  • tsig

    Sounds like you are in a relationship with Jesus.

  • tsig

    By this shall all men know ye are my disciples that ye hate that which I hate.

  • tsig

    Why is god so obsessed with human genitalia?

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    Oh ho! A part of the Bible I haven’t read that condemns loving, committed homosexual relationships? I shall go check it out!

    -goes off to read Romans 1-

    Nooo, you tricked me! I’ve read Romans 1 before and it doesn’t condemn loving, committed homosexual relationships! It condemns heterosexuals going off and having homosexual pagan orgies where they have sex to worship pagan gods (you know, like worshiping the Golden Calf, only with sex), something I think we can all agree God isn’t down with.

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    Was the sin of Sodom homosexuality? Nope! Even the Bible says so:

    Ezekiel 16:49 “‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    Oof, for a minute I thought you were an angry non-Christian come here to rant about how dare I follow such an evil God who would allow such things as murder and adultery and child sacrifice as were allowed in the OT. You know, like how God commanded genocide (1 Samuel 15:2-3) and child sacrifice (Abraham & Isaac). The OT is pretty hardcore, after all. Now I just wonder if you’re familiar with the brutality of the OT.

  • Kirk T.

    You’re assuming here that Jesus agrees with your definition of sin. That’s not always a safe assumption to make.

  • Jeff Preuss

    I have repented and turned away from sin. I am not challenging God.

    “You’re not God and you don’t have the authority to change His design to be used pervertedly!”
    I’m not changing his design. This IS His design for me. But, you feel free to insert perversion where there is none, since you have a little obsession over it.

    Sodom was destroyed for its uncharitable inhospitality. Or, have you not read Ezekiel?

  • Jeff Preuss

    You know I disagree with your conclusion for me, but I respect your conclusion for your life and relationship with Him.
    “Noone has a right to cast doubt on your faith, salvation or your position as a child of God.” And, thanks. :)

  • Jeff Preuss

    Also? Don’t yell at me. Thanks.

  • Jeff Preuss

    There IS debate. Just because you disagree with a position in the debate doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
    Do you not realize the Bible has been translated into thousands of versions over the millennia? And not a single one says exactly the same thing as any other? And contextual study of the Scriptures and the times in which they were written is a healthy and necessary way to fully flesh out the overall meaning of the writings? And that Jesus died for our sins, yes, even yours?

    Perhaps you don’t understand the epic story of forgiveness as presented in the Bible, because you are speaking a story of condemnation. And, THAT is not of Christ.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Hey, lady. I am gay. Gay gay gay. And Christian. Christian Christian Christian.

    Your obsession in response to my posts speaks more to your problems with sin, not mine.

  • Herm

    All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

    The “Scripture” that Paul was referring to in his letter to Timothy was in no way the compilation, editing and canon we now call the New Testament. Paul only said, to him, scripture is “useful”. I would say as an expose of Man’s search for and with their creator God it is “useful”.

    The only inerrant word of God is the Spirit of truth. It is pride and arrogance to judge other’s sin as more important to God than your sin. Truly, with the Holy Spirit whelming your heart and mind you simply cannot judge to criticize your homosexual neighbors who show you mercy for you love them as yourself. What are you doing?

  • Jeff Preuss

    Dang! You used Scripture to correct, Eris! :D

  • Realist1234

    True, but perhaps you should read some of the words from Jesus to the churches as written in Revelation.

  • RonnyTX

    Nomen to Kirk:
    Sin is what separates us from God. I am a major league sinner. But since I confess that sin to God and accept Christ’s death on the cross as payment for my sin, I can then be a part of the Kingdom of God. I will never throw a stone at someone who is living in unrepentant rejection of God’s love. I was there and it would be wholly un-Christ like to tell someone who is not repentant of their sin to keep on sinning and you’ll be just fine. That sin can be any sin. The article says Mr Graham denounces LGBQT. What Mr. Graham is saying to anyone living in darkness is there is another way. That is exactly what Jesus was doing with the adulteress who was about to be stoned. No Christian can condemn a sinner, but it is irresponsible and unloving to not speak truth to the lost. Not with a self righteous attitude but with love. My prayer is that all come to Christ in repentance.

    Ronny to Nomen:
    You are right, that we all still sin. That so, both those of us who have already been born of God and those who have not yet been so born again. And you’re right, that no Christian, no one born of God, can condemn anyone else. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. And you’re right, that we are to speak the truth to those who are still lost, not yet born of God. And you’re right, that we are to speak to them out of love and not with a self righteousness attitude. And you are right, to pray that all come to Christ in repentance. For it is God’s will, that all be saved/born of God. And as I like to put it, what God wills, God gets. :-) And God’s will gets fullfilled in this area, by the greatest power of all-the love of God/Jesus Christ.
    :-) And as the following scripture shows us, we need to be about telling the lost, that they have already been reconciled back to God the Father! :-) That Jesus Christ did that for them, on the cross. There where he took all of their, out and everyones sins upon himself. For that is how much Jesus Christ loves us and that is how he reconciled up back to God the Father. And note in the following scripture passage, we are told this is already done and that for every person. :-) So, your prayer is answered and that with a huge YES! :-) For God has already determined, that all will come to Christ in repentance, God has already determined, that all will be born of God! :-) And what God wills and determines, God gets! :-) Amen! :-)

    “18 All these new things are from God who brought us back to himself through what Christ Jesus did. And God has given us the privilege of urging everyone to come into his favor and be reconciled to him. 19 For God was in Christ, restoring the world to himself, no longer counting men’s sins against them but blotting them out. This is the wonderful message he has given us to tell others. 20 We are Christ’s ambassadors. God is using us to speak to you: we beg you, as though Christ himself were here pleading with you, receive the love he offers you—be reconciled to God. 21 For God took the sinless Christ and poured into him our sins. Then, in exchange, he poured God’s goodness into us![b]

    Footnotes:
    2 Corinthians 5:21 For God took the sinless Christ and . . . poured God’s goodness into us, literally, “Him who knew no sin, he made sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in him.”

  • SamHamilton

    Trust me. I’ve heard it aplenty. Jim Wallis is a good example of someone who does it on a regular basis. Next time I hear it I’ll send it your way.

  • SamHamilton

    Herm,

    I’ll try to answer your questions to the best my ability. I think we all have the authority you reference in your “big” question. How often we should publicly exercise it is another matter. The answer to your second question is to look at how closely the judges’ statements align with Jesus’ teachings. I don’t know what your “most important” question is asking. Know what?

    I definitely agree that there would be a more agreeable way to disagree with people followed Jesus’ teaching in the verses you’ve cited.

    I don’t know what you’re asking in your final question. Again, my small bean has been overtaxed.

    My concern is that Mr. Corey seems to be saying that one of the negative aspects of American civil Christianity is that Christians are expected to hold one set of political beliefs. Implied there, is that in Mr. Corey’s ideal world (this new church), Christians would be “permitted” to hold varying political beliefs without coming under criticism from other Christians. I don’t see this happening, and I don’t even know if it would be a positive thing, though, as you allude to above, I think it would be good to disagree differently than we do now.

  • Nomen Calatus

    Okay if it makes you feel better. I don’t know what else to say but, I’m sorry.

  • Hillary Allen (aka Canuck)

    Oh, so you actually know, do you?! Wow, remarkable. I guess all those other Christians that welcome their LGBT brothers and sisters are in error then. How silly of them.

  • A scimitar? Lol!

    Gosh, what if Ben was attacked by a Chinese man who used kung fu?

  • RonnyTX

    Kirk, you’re right that it would be unnatural for a gay man or woman, to marry someone of the opposite sex. And that made me think about an older 1st cousin of mine, who was the youngest son of an ultra-fundamentalist Baptist preacher. I’m sure he was taught the lie, about how sinful it was for him to be gay, that such was chosen, etc. And I’m not sure if he was in his late teens or early 20’s; but somewhere in there he was taught to believe that if he married a female, that would make him heterosexual! (ha) And he did and they ended up with 3 children. But before getting married, he was honest with his fiance and told he was gay. She also believed he would change and be heterosexual, once the were married. Of course, he didn’t. Why the poor guy even went and had shock treatments, because one of his older brothers wanted him to try that! That after hearing about a doctor who said, having shock treatments would make a gay guy heterosexual! But as cousin put it later, all that shock treatment did, was make him forget somethings! But on the way home from having such, he noted guys that he was still attracted to! (ha) Of course, it’s not a funny thing what he went through; but sometimes I do have to sort of laugh, at the sheer ignorance on all of this, that some people have come up with! Later on, my cousin and his wife divorced. Then he met a guy he loved and who loved him. :-) They were a couple till my cousin died, which means they were together for over 20 years. And just glad I got to see and talk with that cousin a bit, before his death.

    Ah, just thought of when I was around 16 years old. My Mom and I at my aunt and uncles home and their youngest son and his male spouse down visiting them. Cousin was off somewhere with one of his older brothers, I was in the den with his male spouse, who was simply watching some TV. My Mom and aunt outside, working in a garden. It hit aunt where I was, with that other guy and she told Mom they had to get back in the house! (ha) I guess she thought he was going to molest me or something! Ah my. And the great irony in that, is that the only older fella that ever molested me,when I was 16 years old, was an official in our local Baptist church! And I so wanted to tell my pastor and his wife about that, right after it happened; but I was too scared to do that. Too afraid that they would find out that I was gay. Well, that’s the type of church I grew up in. Where I was taught that being gay was self chosen and the worst of sins. And I heard that from overhearing some church elders outside of church and being gay/homosexual, that was never even mentioned in church. So as a kid and then a Christian in church, I thought my being gay as so bad and sinful, that good Christians could not even mention such by name,in the actual church house!

    And when I was 17teen years old, I overheard my aunt telling my Mom, that her youngest son could not be a Christian, because he was gay. And my Mom said she knew her nephew was a Christian, because she had been there, when he was saved. And that was the one positive thing I ever heard any Christian say about a gay person and that from the time I was 12 years old, till I was 40 years old. Which would probably make better since, if I tell you I’m 60 years old now and the time I’m writing about is the 1967 to 1995 and that in rural, small town NE Texas. And just a last thought; but a whole lot of churches around here; but I often wonder, how many Christians, how many who have been born of God?

  • it kind of looks like by comming here posting & engaging w progressives she’s is trying to convince herself & us that what she believes is true but realy she’s been brainwashed & somewhere in her suconscious she knows it and so she is actually detoxing.*/:D

  • RonnyTX

    Sharon to Eris:

    Anyone who says homosexuality is not sin–is truly hating–You’re encouraging, endorsing what God warns not to do throughout the Bible. It’s not being loving or tolerant. There’s true deception going on here, and this author is a promoter. Any truly born again believers, that are walking in faith with Holy Spirit guidance, would be wise to move on from this writer. Many, thank goodness, see the error of his teaching.

    Ronny to Sharon:
    Yes Sharon, there is true deception going on here. For what you say and believe here about people who are gay, that’s not of God; but from some men. And I don’t doubt; but that you got such from some preachers. But what I’m saying to you, is that you didn’t get such from God/Jesus Christ. Now what I’m going to ask you to do, is simply ask God to directly show you the truth on this matter.

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    Mwahaha, I am sneaky. ^_^

  • seashell

    I’m curious. Do you get joy out of your life by going around and bashing other people’s sex lives? And do you really believe that condemning the sex lives of others in the name of God is what God really wants for you? That sounds perverted to me.

  • Herm

    Thank you Sam for an excellent reply. I will try to explain some of my questions both in my understanding of Jesus’ teaching and why I believe it is important.

    In four gospels and in my heart and mind I do not see where anyone of Jesus’ disciples has the authority of Jesus. The charter Jesus gives to all of His disciples (students) is to teach (by example) all in all nations to make students (disciples) of Him, the only Teacher/Rabbi. To be an actual living disciple of Jesus in the scriptures and now each one of us must despise the teachings of our carnal families in favor of only His teaching connected in us and we in Him by the whelming (baptizing) of Spirit of truth plus we must pick up our cross as the judged but not the judge. I cannot see little children with any authority nor need for authority when we have a mature Brother as Lord and Teacher active in us and we in Him.

    Jesus’ commands and teaching at the beginning, then and today are complete in Matthew 7:12 and Matthew 22:37-40. We are the ones who childishly try to make more to balance with the traditions and teachings of our communities of birth. The imperfect disciples and apostles did just that before, during and after Jesus’ ascension. The Christianity movement, under the sponsorship of Constantine, moved from the passive humility of the cross to take the offense by way of the sword. Christians no longer followed the Jesus Christ as portrayed in the four canonized gospels much less Jesus as their Lord, Teacher, High Priest and Brother in them and they in Him.

    With Jesus fulfilling all those necessary roles of authority (in heaven and on earth) for those who came to Him as little children (humbly knowing that they could not successfully wield such authority for all of mankind) to be whelmed (baptized) by the Spirit of truth [John 14:15-21] they each knew and know today that His authority is sufficient and that we will simply follow His lead in our hearts and minds.

    Ben makes the point that Jesus’ kingdom and church is upside down in how authority is administered as He rules from the bottom up and not the top down as mankind attempts to do. Jesus’ throne and temple on earth and in heaven is actively in the hearts and minds of His sisters, brothers and mother. None of His parishioners/subjects/siblings are authorized to aggressively make converts nor judge those who are not for His rule. That was not the example He set during His ministry on earth as the only begotten Son of Man.

    The seed of the Church of Christ Jesus is not sprouting a new church but is showing the way to return to Jesus’ church. Calling the sincere lost out of the churches of Man who each call themselves Christ’s real authority, based purely on a authorized theology of Jesus and not a relationship in Jesus.

    In our civil governing within the USA everyone should follow their own heart and mind to support those who they desire to represent them. No religious organization should dictate, by their manipulating and intimidating self anointed authority, how their members must vote or support a civil government founded on a principle of, by and for the people. In a civilly governed society espousing constitutionally freedom of constructive and productive religious practice no religious body has the authority to dictate those not of their religious beliefs.

    My point regarding “so many differing theological demands” is that just within the Muslim, Jewish and Christian religions, active in the USA, there is no solidarity. There are even more religious beliefs active in the USA with the freedom to practice in a constructive and productive manner for our entire society.

    Jesus can and does exercise His authority for the good of all, productively and constructively, when allowed to rule only the non judgmental hearts and minds of His disciples in solidarity, they in Him and He in They.

    It is not my job, nor any disciple of Jesus, to go out into the world and tell people they are going to hell by the judgment of my local church authority and how I interpret the Bible. I solely rely on the Spirit of truth to lead me to those in sincere need, or even those simply with honest desire, to point to the infallible judge through the inerrant word of God, the Holy Spirit. I do find that I am called to occasionally get between a victim and those who would throw physical or spiritual rocks to draw the line in the sand that their sins are no less detrimental to a relationship in God and God in them. My job is to love all, as does my Lord first and most, and in so doing in everything do to all others as I would have all others do to me.

    I do, childishly I admit, take great offense when so many attack others (physically, mentally, socially and spiritually) of God’s creation in Their image in the name of my family. I tend to react as I once did on the elementary school playground to the bullies who outside defamed the goodness of my carnal family’s name as I knew them certainly to be good from within their relationship. That is a sin against the bullies and not according to how my Brother reacts, except of course, when He got upset with how our Father’s house was being merchandised.

    Sam, we would disagree more constructively and productively if all “Christians” actually were in relationship with Christ and Christ in them. Then we don’t need to point out the verses in the Bible for the Spirit of truth would be residing in all our hearts and minds to lead us into the truth unanimously.

    Love you and thank you very much!

  • Herm

    Maybe, we can be here for her to hold her through the uncontrollable shakes. As she comes out into the real world we can then point her to the only trustworthy Teacher, Judge and Healer for eternity. It isn’t easy for her as you well know. As always, love you!

  • RonnyTX

    Sharon to Jeff:
    Good then, like all of us, repent–turn from sin–and quit challenging the very God who made u in His image. You’re not God and you don’t have the authority to change His design to be used pervertedly! That’s why He destroyed a couple cities. The epitome of pride and arrogance. But do what u want. God has warned us.

    Ronny to Sharon:
    Sharon, you’re not God either. So please keep that in mind, as you jump all over some other people. And yes, God destroyed a couple of cities. In fact, I’m pretty sure that God had destroyed a lot more than that. But I don’t doubt, that the main one you’re talking about is Sodom. Is that not so? And I would ask you to read Ezekiel chapter 16. Why? Because in that chapter God tells us that the sins of Jerusalem were much worse than the sins of Sodom,etc. Also there, God lists the sins of Sodom and some other cities. And God says the sins of these other cities, they were really minor, as compared to the sins of Jerusalem. Sounds bad and it was;but the good news for all is, that in that same chapter, God says he is going to restore and bless, both Sodom, Jerusalem and other places God destroyed. :-) In that chapter, God says he is going to restore and bless them all. Now that is great news, for all people and sure not something, I ever heard taught or preached in church! (ha) But yet there it is, right there in Ezekiel chapter 17. Now why don’t all the preachers and Sunday School teachers, preach and teach such? Why don’t they, since it’s right there in the bible, to us and directly from God?

  • Jeff Preuss

    If Sharon were presenting it as her opinion, that would be markedly different from how she’s commenting…and might elicit a different response in turn.

  • RonnyTX

    Bones to Froderic:
    Notice which came first.

    He said “I don’t condemn you” first.

    Then He said “Go and sin no more”.

    This is a God who doesn’t condemn people for sin.

    Maybe you could learn from that……

    Ronny to Bones:
    Ah but Bones, it’s no fun, if God/Jesus Christ doesn’t condemn everyone, I condemn! :-( LoL

  • Anne Gull

    Ben’s a bully, akin to Lotso in Toy Story 3. The portrait he paints of two types of American Christians reminds me of the Reich church (which was not Christian) and the confessing church (true believers) in Germany during the reign of Hitler. He has twisted reality. Franklin Graham IS a true believer. As is Jerry Falwell. Jerry Falwell simply stated that if Jihadi Muslims were to attempt to gain entrance to the Liberty campus, wouldn’t it be a wise idea for students to be capable of actually stopping such an evil attack from ending innocent lives. Lives like the ones taken in San Bernardino. Lives that could have been saved had someone been equipped to put a halt to Malik’s and Farook’s murderous rampage. Yes, as Chancellor Falwell stated, that WOULD be reason to celebrate. Ben’s depiction is way off, for those who worship the state are NOT followers of Christ. True believers do not adhere to any particular political party. Followers of Christ are canon-minded. They adhere to the precepts set forth in God’s Holy written Word, lived out by Jesus. Contrary to what progressives purport LOUDLY and FORCEFULLY, the topic of homosexuality IS specifically addressed in the Bible. Concerning homosexuality, author Tom Krattenmaker writes, “a matter that receives nowhere near top billing in the Bible.” EXACTLY! If Jesus had been down with homosexuality, don’t you think He would have authoritatively said so, and it would also be clearly stated in God’s Holy written Word??? Where, oh where does Jesus endorse, advocate for, make it clear to one and all that He and His Father made homosexuality “good?” It certainly is missing in Genesis where He distinctly proclaims all that He created as “good.” Au contraire, Jesus made it crystal clear what marriage is, as well as what it isn’t when he said, “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” (Matthew 19:4-6; Jesus is referring here to Genesis 1:27 and 2:24). Ben is correct, followers of Jesus can sniff out those with authentic faith, those who have surrendered their allegiance to Jesus. They know the counterfeit when they see it. They know when someone is questioning, “Did God really say that?” in order to take their freedom in Christ as licence to sin. They know when another gospel and another Jesus are being proclaimed, which is NOT the Gospel of the Good News and NOT Jesus Christ, King of kings and Lord of lords. God’s beloved Son. His only perfect child. Christianity is still alive and well in the United States of America, after hundreds of years. My children are proof, for they are part of God’s army of set-apart men and women of valor.

  • RonnyTX

    Sharon, you asked, “Why did God destroy Sodom & G? ”

    Because of the following.

    “49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.” Ezekiel 16:49,50

    Now in this same chapter, God tells Jerusalem that their sins were much worse that Sodom’s. etc. Yet I’ve never heard that preached/said by any preacher. And please read all of that chapter, for in it you will see God telling us, that God is going to restore and bless Sodom, Jerusalem and other cities that God destroyed.

  • Anne Gull

    God is holy and righteous, and He cannot wink at sin.

  • Anne Gull

    Who is the one lying here?

  • RonnyTX

    Sharon to Otrotierra:
    You don’t understand Jesus nor the inspired word of God–and Jesus is the Word–truth revealed to us. Read Romans 1 of His word. Jesus said everything he needed–it’s as clear as day.

    Ronny to Sharon:
    Sharon, there is nothing in Romans chapter one, that condemns gay people for their being gay. And if you believe there is, then please point that out to me, in a very specific way.

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    Where, oh where does Jesus endorse, advocate for, make it clear to one and all that He and His Father made homosexuality “good?” It certainly is missing in Genesis where He distinctly proclaims all that He created as “good.”

    This, my dear neighbor, is a glorious argument in favor of homosexuality, for did not God make homosexuality, in both animals and in humans? And if God created it and distinctively proclaims all He created as “good,” then we should rejoice, yes?

    However, you and I sadly disagree on one very key point: the paragraph break. I believe that it was “good” even though Jesus never explicitly stated that it was so, and you clearly disagree. But I beseech thee, please, adjust your view and use the paragraph break! It makes the life of your reader so much easier!

  • Jeff Preuss

    ” It certainly is missing in Genesis where He distinctly proclaims all that He created as “good.””

    That’s a really weird argument, because God didn’t give a rundown of “Here’s all the GOOD things I have created, down to the last detail…oh, by the way, anything not on THIS list is very, very bad”

    And, also, God did actually create me, just as He did you. Have a nice day.

  • Jeff Preuss

    I’m trying to figure out how Ben is a bully, and Franklin Graham is not.

  • SamHamilton

    Thanks for your response Herm. You cover a lot of ground. It helps me understand where you’re coming from.

    I want to be clear that I do not believe that any one of us has the authority of Jesus. Your original question (which I assume was based on my original comment about Christians telling other Christians they’re not following Jesus) was which one of us has the authority to tell another Christian that he or she is not following Jesus. I don’t think these are the same thing. And Mr. Corey does not speak of them as the same thing either. He clearly thinks it’s acceptable for a Christian to tell another Christian that he/she is diverging from the Way. (See posts about Mike Huckabee, Franklin Graham, John Piper, the nature of Hell, etc.)

    Also, keep in mind, that in both Mr. Corey’s blog post and in my comments we’re talking about Christians judging other Christians, not Christians judging non-Christians using Christian standards or telling them they’re going to Hell. I agree that that is not our role.

    My point is, one can’t, on one hand, say that a negative ramification of American civil Christianity is it’s desire to tell people to ascribe to a particular set of public policy beliefs while at the same time believe it’s important to tell other Christians when they’re wrong about public policy. By doing so, one is saying that Christians must support a particular set of public policy beliefs. If you’re interested in discussing this specific conundrum, I’m interested.

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    To be absolutely honest I got lost really early on. Like, at the Lotso/Toy Story 3 comparison. Then I watched the whole thing jump to Nazi territory and I was all, “Huh?” I never really regained my footing.

  • Anne Gull

    Dear reader, homosexuality came as a result of the fall. God did not create it. Nor did He pronounce it “good.” It matters not that you believe it to be good. It’s not and He doesn’t want us to rejoice in sin.

  • Anne Gull

    Yes, He created you. How sad it is that you, like the rest of us, decide to sin against your Almighty Creator. Repent and believe!

  • Jeff Preuss

    As I’ve already stated, I have repented. I do not sin against our Creator’s design for me. Quit inserting yourself into MY salvation. You’re trying to come between me and Jesus, and it won’t work. You cannot deny me His redemptive grace.

    I’ll pray for you.

  • Jeff Preuss

    “He doesn’t want us to rejoice in sin.” Then why are you rejoicing in acting like a bully here?

  • Guy Norred

    If you are pointing to the account from Genesis and deciding that is about homosexuality and not gang rape and extreme inhospitality, I suggest you don’t have the first clue what homosexuality even means. You keep suggesting that your critics don’t know anything about Scripture, the Holy Spirit, or God’s commands (and by this I assume you mean that they don’t understand the traditional understanding or a Biblical condemnation of homosexuality that is so ingrained into our culture that anyone over a certain age cannot help but be very aware of this).

  • Guy Norred

    Read Romans 1 AND Romans 2. Paul wrote a letter with no chapter divisions after all.

  • Guy Norred

    The point of the log is that we are to look only at the sin in our own lives. After all, none of us is God and we can’t see the hearts of our brothers and sisters as He does. And, as I said before, you really shouldn’t read Romans 1 without continuing to the next chapter.

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    Proof please, because I’ve never seen anything in the bible that says “homosexuality is a result of the fall.” ^_^

  • Guy Norred

    Few of us can know how even we ourselves would react in that situation, but I believe Ben when he says that his convictions at least would have him not defend himself or another.

  • Jeff Preuss

    From where I stand, she is.
    Stating directly to me, “How sad it is that you, like the rest of us, decide to sin against your Almighty Creator. Repent and believe!” when I have already made clear I’ve repented and DO believe, is her trying to rule over MY salvation, dictating HER understanding to be applied to my walk with Christ.

    If she wanted to just state she believes it is sin, she would not have been using the words she’s used. If she believes it a sin, that is one thing, but she’s making unnecessary demands over my “need” for repentance.

  • Jeff Preuss

    ” I wonder, is it just those you disagree with that get categorised as ‘bullies’?”

    Hardly. There are plenty on “my” side who use tactics that I would not. I called her out as a bully because her tactics match such, and her very first sentence on here claims that Ben Corey is a bully. If that is such an issue to her to be her FIRST point, she should better watch her own delivery.

    And, yes, her mistake was to get personal. If she had stated it in a general thought of “we all decide to sin against our Creator, and I think being homosexual is such a decision,” it would have come off as less of an attack, and more of a theological position. I would have disagreed, naturally, but there would have been more apparent sincerity on her part, and it would have been better received.

    [EDITED to add quote at the front, since Disqus orders things funny sometimes.]

  • Jeff Preuss

    Also? Hi, Eva. How are you?

  • Jeff Preuss

    It didn’t click til your last comment to me. :) Still didn’t answer – how are you?

  • It doesn’t matter how I feel. Emotions don’t matter here. What matters is reason and logic. Cold, hard, unfeeling reason and logic.

    Do you have an objection based on reason and logic to make to my points?

  • Disagree with him if you want, but bald-faced lying is beyond stupid.

    Ben is not a bully. Bullies don’t engage with people openly and with respect while allowing dissenting voices to have their say. If you think that being that is being a ‘bully’, then you’re completely wrong.

    By the way, I’m not even a Christian and don’t even agree with Ben much (even most, maybe) of the time.

  • seashell

    Aside from the lack of paragraphs (really?), this is so much gobbledegook. First you assertively state that Christians do not adhere to any political party, and then quote an author who is talking about the political utility of same sex marriage to the Republican party and how the GOP made full use of it. The full quote by the way:

    Yet there can be no denying its [opposition to homosexuality] effectiveness in politics… Its political utility helps explain why a matter that receives nowhere near top billing in the Bible came to play such a featured role in the rhetoric and on the priority lists of Christian Right organizations.

    Jesus wasn’t big on violence either, but here you are celebrating the chance to blow away Muslims on a college campus. If Jesus was so down with guns and blowing people away, why isn’t that crystal clear in the Bible?

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    Also, even if homosexuality was a result of the fall, that doesn’t mean it would be a sin. For example, the bible states that pain in childbirth is a result of the fall (Genesis 3:16). Does that mean that experiencing pain in childbirth is a sin? Of course not. Does that mean that someone who experiences, say, more pain in childbirth is more sinful than a person who experiences less pain? Once again, of course not.

    Even if I agreed that homosexuality was a result of our fallen state (and I don’t), that wouldn’t mean I would have to agree that it was wrong.

  • Jeff Preuss

    I’ve answered most of your questions, save when you got quite belligerent with me and followed me to other blogs to hound me. If you really aren’t going to positively respond to a sincere attempt at being cordial with you, that’s your choice. I hope you’re well.

  • Bones

    Perhaps you need to study Revelation.

    That was a repudiation of the Pauline churches.

  • Bones

    Stop projecting. You are more concerned about sin than God is.

  • Jeff Preuss

    “There you go again. You completely misunderstood what I was saying.”

    In THIS conversational thread, I have answered all your questions to me. If you meant something else other than the words you used, I am not apologizing for misconstruing your intent. I responded to what you said.

    I won’t take the hint? Is it the hint you’ve given me when you scolded me to NOT talk to you? As I said, I only realized who you were a few comments ago (since you’ve again registered as “Guest” and there are…a lot of those), so if you don’t want to engage with me, don’t engage with me. If you don’t want people to talk to you in a discussion thread, don’t discuss. I simply will NOT refrain from interacting with any and all people who register as ‘Guest’ on Disqus to avoid upsetting you when you’re in hiding.

    In any case, I am sorry you feel like crap. I wish you no ill.

  • Jeff Preuss

    I agree. Sometimes, I think our wires get crossed. I try very much to be direct in what I say, and that can often come off terse. That is not my intent.

    Thanks. I do hope things are better soon.

  • Don B

    Hey, Clay! I’m like you. Thankful for the fact that God used Calvary Chapel to bring me to Christ but also I’ve spent decades unlearning how to LIVE the Christian life. After reading Paul
    Ellis’ blogs and resources on the Escape to Realty website , I finally understand it’s not about us but about Him. We have Jesus’ perfect Righteousness. Yet , most of us strive to be righteous. That is our flesh , which can be good or bad. Either way, it is offensive to God and keeps us from freely loving Him back for all He has already done for us. I really believe we are on the verge of the greatest reformation in the history of the Church. And God is using Ben and Paul and others to lead the way.

  • Don B

    Hey , Jeff. Gay and Christian is not an oxymoron as Graham and others assert. I have friends who know the Grahams personally and lament that he ever took over the reigns of BGEA. He has no clue as to how a believer is to LIVE the Christian life. Repentance means to change our mind about the nature of sin and what Christ did for us. It does NOT mean that we must change our behavior. The passages used against gay sex have nothing to do with people in a committed sexual relationship . And though promiscuity CAN lead to deadly consequences , it doesn’t result in a loss of salvation. Sex is a gift from God. We should enjoy that gift and stop the guilt trips.
    Jeff, you’re my bro in Christ. Thanks for being true to your nature and to our God!

  • Don B

    Hey , guys! We have all benefitted from Ben’s teachings and wisdom. How about chipping in and sending him a monetary token of our appreciation for Christmas? Scripture says we are not to muzzle those who teach us. To me, Ben IS my pastor. He is a beacon to God’s light and truth. Just a thought. The amount for each of us would be different , but our appreciation for him and all he does would be the same.
    Ben, am I out of line here? I don’t want to highjack your site. But we all HAVE benefitted from you. Your cogent writing style and passion definitely motivate me.

  • seashell

    I looked around one time for a way to contribute to him, but I didn’t find anything. Do you know how, Don?

  • Ronnie, thanks for sharing. It is so sad to see how much damage well meaning Christians can do to others, often saying their pointing out of others sins is being done out of “love.” Sad too are sexual predators within the church. There are very bad people out there who are heterosexual and ones that are homosexual, that will prey on others. I was really moved by Justin Lee’s “Torn” as he was like me, only Gay. It was a real “eye-opener” for me. Here’s a guy, grows up in the church, loves Jesus, tries desperately to like girls in high school, but there’s this thing…he is attracted to guys. To see him now, so happy, so full of life and at peace with who he is, and still loves Jesus, it is so incouraging. God bless!

  • Nixon is Lord

    But why do they have too many children for them to feed and educate and clothe? Why breed what they can’t feed?

  • Guy Norred

    Thanks for bringing this up. I hadn’t thought of this particular take.

  • Guy Norred

    “Repentance means to change our minds about the nature of sin and what Christ did for us.” Very elegantly put! I am not so sure I agree with your next senten. I mean, yes, we may not change behavior that we once thought to be sinful, but the freedom of the knowledge of the grace of the cross — when we let go of the fears that cause us to focus on ourselves and keep us from loving our neighbor–well, I think most of us do start to act differently. :-)

  • Jeff Preuss

    Thanks!

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    2 Peter 2:6…and of course in your scripture also, the abomination to God along with more sins–and it’s stated here–that God made them an example, so no one would ever go there again– Now satan is alive and well and you can be sure the deprived mind is bringing a return to sodom & g. 1 Tim.1:9–(why there is /was law). …for lawless, rebellious, ungodly…sexually immoral, homosexual, kidnappers, liars… ” Mercy is given to the truly repentant–and scripture is clear–1 Corinthians 6:9. “Do not be deceived no sexually immoral people , idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals , thieves …will inherit Gods kingdom.” This and Romans 1, and the entire bible–I’ve read it entirely many times–never in any place–has anything but condemnation for homosexual practices. I’ve been on these so-called Christian sites many times and there are a bunch of ear ticklers that love to hang on to their sin and then try to deceive the vulnerable. (Twisting of scripture) The bible is clear–there are behaviors that are deadly–but it’s satan that deceives! There is no where it says He will bless Sodom.

  • And the irony that she’s accusing Ben of being the ‘bully’, when Ben is one of the people responsible for this very space here on this article where we’re all commenting!

    If she was posting something at some right-wing Breitbart-like blog and everything she posted got deleted even if it was unconditionally not over the line in any way… then she’d have a point.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Destroyed because of in hospitality huh. I’ve read that goofy little analysis before. Remember before he destroyed he told ahead and said because of their wickedness–not bad manners. I’m truly the one being loving here–anyone encouraging homo behavior is showing hate. You can talk yourself into this deceit. But I pray you wake up before it’s too late. That’s the last I’ll talk to you , and pray the conviction of the Holy Spirit will work in you. You might want to read Stand to Reasons material. They even address the “in hospitality” fairytale.

  • “Why are you caught up in living a lifestyle of darkness, choosing to be Christian, when you can embrace rationality and goodness by becoming an atheist? Your immoral lifestyle makes you a slave of a magical sky fairy. This Christian phase is like any other phase, any other lifestyle, that you went through your life akin to how you liked certain books, movies, etc but then didn’t. The phase will end.”

    If you can understand, in clear rational detail, why the above sentences don’t just make you mad but make you frustrated at an intellectual level… then you should be able to understand why LGBT people feel both mad and intellectually frustrated with the ‘phase’/’lifestyle’ lie.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Hmm–so adultery is good? How about pedophiles? It was all good until disobedience came-Sin causes separation from God and always an ugly consequence–but mercy and Jesus bring hope, redemption, change, salvation if we repent!

  • >’destructive’
    ‘>hateful’
    >’promoting’

    1. People happen to be born LGBT, just like people happen to be born Hispanic, born Irish, born brown haired, and so on. Nobody becomes gay out of social pressure or out of some kind of conversion. That’s objectively, factually wrong.

    2. The only people I see being hateful are you and others arguing like you. The differences in tone, in the measured nature of statements, the avoidance of logical fallacies, and so on is night-versus-day. The contrast is strong.

    3. If God happens to not support homosexuality, and so you view homosexuality like the desire to eat shrimp or pork… fine. It’s something natural that God just so happened to ask his followers to not do. But that’s a far freaking cry from claiming that being LGBT means ‘darkness’, ‘sadness’, ‘destruction’, or anything of the sort because it really doesn’t. Those are bald-faced lies. Note that, even among Orthodox Jewish rabbis, you don’t see rabbis who look at Jews who ‘fall away’ for a moment and have some pork as subhumans that must be eliminated because they’re dark inferiors. It would be hilariously weird to find a rabbi that would say that. It’s well understood that “Okay, they did something I don’t think God approves of, so let’s talk like reasonable people” would be the words out of the rabbi’s mouth. Can’t the same logic apply here? Or are we to think of Christians as being less intelligent and less logical about scripture?

  • >’Destroyed because of in-hospitality’

    Yes, that’s what it actually says. In the Bible. Which… I would think that you would probably find important.

    But then you’ve already made a conclusion in your mind, and you go to the Bible cherry-picking for evidence here and there to support your ideological politics. If that’s your ‘game’, then it really doesn’t matter what the rest of the Bible says, does it? I suppose not.

  • Funny enough, the Bible isn’t clear about sexual sin, at least with regards to what specifically the writer condemns. That’s why the translation of arsenokoitai has varied over the centuries. It wasn’t until relatively modern translations that it became synonymous with homosexuality. For the majority of its lifetime, the term has been taken to mean something more generic, like “sexual impurity.”

  • Someone committing adultery goes back and admits that they made a mistake, and they both ask for forgiveness as well as try not to make the mistake again. At least… that’s the ‘traditional Christian’ view of things.

    Nobody says that people that commit adultery are a distinct social class of ‘adulterers’ who are inferior subhumans that are marked by horrible darkness in their soul, and they must be condemned by secular governments because they are a category of mankind that– as a category– must be hated.

    Even IF you assume that homosexual acts are a sin– a BIG IF that many, many Christians don’t agree with– that means that it’s a sin like any other sin. It’s… sin. It’s treated like… sin.

    If traditional Christianity teaches anything, is that no single person is without sin. The idea of you and people like you… that a ‘exalted upon high clique’ exists who sin less (by what margin and on what grounds… not explained) and the ‘exalted ones’ are to view people that sin in a certain way as inferior subhumans singled out for mistreatment by secular government as well as by others in life… it sounds really nothing like gospel Christianity. If anything, it sounds more like right-wing political authoritarianism using a paper-thin religious veneer of justification.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    That’s a lie of Satan. He made them male and female. It’s not ethnicity–it’s an unregenerated mind that goes down a path of destruction and distortion. But salvation and transformation is available to us all in repentance and faith in Jesus. The enemy of the human soul and body has fed u this lie-/but it’s not too late. Don’t mix dietary laws of the OT with moral laws like adultery, murder, homosexuality, etc. as the bible says with all your learning , get understanding. And there are no facts that you’re born that way. Read a bit more.

  • There is no distinction between laws in the Old Testament. None. No dietary, moral and purity laws. Nothing of the sort. Judaism doesn’t recognize such a classification and neither did Christians until quite some time after the days of Jesus.

    As for being made male or female, tell that to people born hermaphroditic, or with the brains of the opposite sex, or who seem to miraculously grow male genitalia as they become adolescents. Those are physical characteristics and they’re less uncommon than you think.

  • If you take it literally (which early Christians often did), then it was understand to mean ‘men that are prostitutes’, which is clearly not the same thing at all. The New Testament really is all over the place on many issues, being insanely contradictory if you have to accept it all uncritically without reasonable interpretation. This is no exception.

    And then there’s Matt 15:18-20: “[T]hose things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man.” Given that the specific use of ‘fornication’ there is in a fashion that doesn’t mean homosexuality or bisexuality (or transgenderism, for that matter), it seems pretty true that if Matthew’s Jesus DID consider those three traits I just mentioned sinful… they weren’t important enough sins to be mentioned.

    One can point out that Matthew’s Jesus is different than other Jesuses given the many varying details, but then… well, the wheel goes round and round. Honestly, not wanting to be on that wheel is a very large part of why I’m not a Christian to begin with.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    It all depends on how you define love and I think I’ll stick with God for the true definition not the distortion of sinful people.

  • Can you love your neighbor while murdering them? Apparently some people seem to think so, because all their efforts to drive people away from being gay seem to do is result in buried bodies. What sort of fruit is that again?

  • denial & brainwashing = lifelong condishing to justify crimes against humanity is my guess =|8•0

  • Given how you’re bald-faced lying over and over again (the fact that you seem to believe that people as adults choose to become homosexual just like they’re trying on a new pair of pants is so hilariously wrong that it’s actually sad– like I pity you for believing something that stupid), it’s very ironic for you to say “get understanding” to me. I suggest you read your own book. Seriously.

    The desire for a man to eat shrimp is natural. The desire of a man to not keep holy the Sabbath because he’d rather play video games is natural. The desire of a woman to gossip about her friends is natural. Those things can be sins, fine, but we all understand that they are…. natural and reasonably common things. Because they freaking are.

    Even if you assume– a big assumption– that homosexuality is wrong. Well, it’s wrong the same way that Jane gossiping about Jill and Amy skipping church because she wanted to sleep in that morning is wrong. I doubt you would label either Jane, Jill, or Amy in that situation as inferior subhumans that need to head to the nearest jail for wickedness. Yet their as much sinners as homosexuals are (granted the assumption), if not more so.

  • Confusing one’s self for God: an error as old as Paul himself.

    For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

    —1 Corinthians 13:12, NIV

  • Whether it’s a lifestyle, a choice, an inborn trait or implanted by posthypnotic suggestion by Obama via HAARP, nothing justifies the mistreatment of others which abounds by bigotry.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Some probably do say they murdered because of love, but we know it’s selfishness–self centeredness–just like homosexuality. God defines what love is and obedience to His word will express love—defiance and distortion of it will not. You’re not loving anyone when encouraging homo.–you’re hating them.

  • Don’t forget the statements about how women are stupid and should shut up when men are talking that Paul says.

    That’s not just in the Bible, but in the New Testament, but basically NONE of the hard-line Christians take Paul literally there. They mostly just stick fingers in their ears and go “La-La, not lsitening.” Or else they talk about having to take the Bible in bigger contexts, word interpretations, etc… which is the same freaking thing that applies when it comes to verses about homosexuallity.

    If they’re going to be horrible ultra-literalists with no understanding of context, can’t they at least be consistently horrible?

  • The fact that you honestly think that Steve murdering Bill is the same in God’s eyes as Steve happening to find Bill attractive (but not acting on it, not even saying a word verbally)…

    Truly, this is insanity. It’s the absolute definition of insanity. If you’re soft-pedaling COLD-BLOODED MURDER… then you need to stop and read Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount or something. I’m not even a Christian, and I can see that you’ve fallen off the deep end among the far radical minority of Christians, politically speaking.

  • How does God define love? Let’s have a look.

    Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

    Can you tell me with sincerity that you feel this describes the act of haranguing people into committing suicide or living miserable lives of exclusion and prejudice?

  • Jeff Preuss

    Huh. I didn’t mention any of those things. YOUR statement about homosexuality not being mentioned in Genesis as God-stated “good” was what I replied to, since a list that doesn’t exist in Genesis is not the end-all, be-all of what we (or God) consider moral or good. So, it’s an illogical, unsupportable argument YOU made.

    Your equating homosexuality with pedophiles is abhorrent behavior. UnChristlike, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

    [EDIT: I see now that Sharon jumped on my response to Anne’s initial statement, so I erred in saying it was initially Sharon’s point about Genesis..]

  • Something that needs to be pointed out:

    If Bob is an atheist born to French parents, but he sees a nice Jewish girl named Mary and marries her, converting to Judaism, but… then they’re part of a terrorist attack by ISIS targeting American Jews [plus Americans generally] and are killed…

    Basically freaking nobody would claim that the horrific antisemitism that took Bob’s life is somehow different than what killed Mary. Was Bob born that way? No, he wasn’t. That makes him different than Mary being born Jewish, or some other victim that maybe happened to be born transgender, but morally… it’s clear. We see that human beings as human beings have inherent rights. And if one professes to be a Christian… all the more reason to think that rights are a good thing.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Those are anomalies and the imperfections of a fallen world like any deformities–Are u saying God didn’t say he made them male and female? Then u need to move away from biblical faith if you’re really not interested in the book for his followers. Do u remember the sheet coming down with the food(nT) and the voice saying eat of previously forbidden food? Hmm? There are definitely distinctions in laws from old to new–forbidden moral laws still forbidden-murder, adultery, fornication, homo., etc.—-dietary were not.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Goofy analysis? Fairytale? It’s in Ezekiel! Scripture!
    You are the one deceiving yourself, to prop up your bigotry, puff up your chest and make yourself look better to God.

    Nothing you have stated is loving.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Sometimes honesty is the most loving thing. Quit fooling yourself Jeff.

  • Challenging God? I take it you haven’t read the multiple stories of the Old Testament where people do just that.

  • Not only is it written thus in Ezekiel, but that is the traditional Jewish interpretation of the text as well.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Not at all-repentance–surrendering all emotional and physical needs to Him–is way better than those horrible things you mentioned–but remember God resists the proud and is near to the broken-hearted–that’s where victory is found.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Quit fooling myself?
    I have always stood for honesty and commitment to my faith, and I am NOT deceived by your words.

    Your attacks will not serve to interfere with my salvation. I feel sorry for you and your self-inflicted blinders. And THAT is the Truth in love.

  • Yes, but we random Christians off the street know way, way, way more about Jewish scriptures and Jewish traditions than the likes of those stupid, ignorant rabbis who go to colleges and whatnot because we got the holy spirit. We ain’t needin’ no ‘book lernin’.

    / this is so close to reality among American fundvangelicals that it’s not even a parody, honestly

  • How do you make the distinction between which laws were repealed and which were not? For example, how would you go about proving that the law forbidding the mixing of fibers no longer applies?

  • Even the author of the freaking Psalms does that!

    Even Abraham– THE Abraham– did it, and did so openly!

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Jeff, you know you’re wrong and you want to hang onto that lie because it brings you a destructive security. Really.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Good luck with that.

  • Do you salve your conscience by assuring yourself that the harm you do only brings people closer to God, and those who perish simply weren’t strong enough?

    Whatever happened to “my yoke is easy and my burden is light” that you would justify cruelty as necessary to the process? Be ashamed, child.

  • Please look at a mirror. Lying, feeling hatred, being a bully, and so on all apply to you. Not others. You.

    If there’s anything that’s more destructive to a person, your belief that you are superior and exalted over other Christians because you sin way less than them… honestly, you don’t even have to be a Christian to see what you’re doing. It’s incredibly destructive. If I would think the gospels teach anything, it’s that the notion that some people are an exalted class upon high because they sin less is terribly wrong– being humble and having humility is the right path.

  • Jeff Preuss

    No, I know you have a small heart and a small mind that could really use a bit of Jesus. I hope you find Him some day. Your lashing out is textbook projection of your own fears.

    If you think you’re “witnessing” here, you’re doing it exceptionally poorly. May you find peace and the joy of Christ some day.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Apparently so. God finds it an abomination to take his image of man and woman and because of arrogance redesign the function to try to force His design into something different. You bet he would be ticked off! It’s the epitome of human artogance . And he deals with it–and will

  • >’If you think you’re “witnessing” here’
    The irony is that she’s causing believing Christians to feel bad as they try to deal with her rationally but cannot, while people like me who are not Christian are trying to fight back feelings of smugness over how she’s– to be frank– ‘atheist-making fuel’.

    That is a cruel way to put it, and I probably shouldn’t phrase things that way. But, well, as a non-Christian who actually does happen to believe in the existence of a God, it’s people like her that make me wonder why I don’t just shift over into being a Richard Dawkins-like anti-theist person. I’m sure she doesn’t want to hear that. But it’s the truth; her type of Christians are Dawkins’ best-friends.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Be logical. God says he made them male and female. If you’re attracted to a neighbors spouse or same sex person–you repent like he says. Don’t try to excuse yourself or create your own little reality…repentance and turning away from sin is what he wants.

  • So… you’re the same as an ISIS terrorist, basically.

    Oh, your God may be different, but what you want to see happen in the world in terms of death, blood, screaming, hatred, and the like is identical.

    Wow. Just… wow.

    All I can say now is that talking to people like you make me wonder if I should stop being a non-Christian deist and start being a hardcore anti-theist, anti-religious person. I doubt that’s your intent. But then, maybe it is. You’re possibly imagining how much joy will be in your heart as you’re in heaven watching other people burn in hell’s lake of fire, I guess. Again… wow.

  • Jeff Preuss

    And I don’t try to look at myself as better than anyone, because of my faith. I don’t think Christ calls us to think ourselves better than others who have sinned more or differently, or those with different beliefs. I think Christ just wants me to be a better me than I was yesterday.
    Were I to use my faith to set myself apart as “more worthy,” I think that would set a dangerous precedent, and it wouldn’t be very good “PR” either.

  • Not that you’re going to do it, but I’d recommend reading Psalms.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Maybe she’s a plant!

  • You think the idea is ridiculous, but I take it you’ve never read Numbers 27 or 36, or Joshua 17. All three contain a story wherein five women challenge the law of Moses, and God changes the law based on their arguments.

    There are also numerous examples of God changing his mind based on human activity throughout the Bible, one of the most relevant in Exodus. God is wrathful, having learned of the golden calf idol, and seeks to destroy the Hebrews. Moses argues on their behalf:

    But Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, “O Lord, why does thy wrath burn hot against thy people, whom thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? Why should the Egyptians say, ‘With evil intent did he bring them forth, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou didst swear by thine own self, and didst say to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have promised I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it for ever.’” And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people.

    So yes, I dare challenge God when I feel God has erred. He is not depicted as unreasonable, or incapable of being swayed.

    Besides, if I am to be condemned, I would rather be condemned for loving too readily, too quickly and with too much forgiveness. Any deity who would condemn me thus was never worth worshiping in the first place.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    All good, but hopefully repentance–turning away from sin was included–if not, find a new church.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    It’s very clear. Satan brings confusion

  • Even when I was a Christian, I always found it rage-inducing that a wide number of folks would say something like “I’m a better person because I sin less, yeah I’m a sinner but I’m way better at avoiding it than others”.

    It’s like they imagine God as like the operator of a casino, and when you die you go to Jesus and Jesus goes=

    “Alright, I count 46,558 sins from Bob, and that means that we get that may spins on the roulette wheel to see if he ever lands on that black 666 space and goes to hell. The House doesn’t always win, but those odds aren’t so good for Bob. Wait… Jane’s coming in? Step right up! What’s your number? Only 4,065? Don’t worry, sugar baby, lady luck is with you. Let’s try those odds and spin to win!”

  • If the parts don’t fit, then why is there an erogenous zone in the anus? Why is STD transmission among lesbians lower than any other couple? If it’s unnatural, then why does it seem to serve a useful purpose (it actually increases the likelihood of siblings reproducing)?

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    It talks nothing of committed homosexual relationships. It’s clear what it is telling believers. What you’re saying is from ear ticklers. The bible doesn’t get much clearer than this. But, God gives you the option to believe it or not. But don’t try to mess up his clear word.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    No I actually read his word to see his ways.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    People will say and do anything–particularly trying to make gods word say what they want–to get around sin

  • She certainly has as much reasonableness and caring in her as an inanimate ficus does.

    [Cheap shot, yes, but I felt it had to be said.]

  • Curiously, quite a large number of people commit adultery by the Biblical definition and others accept it as good. How many people do you know who got divorced and remarried? Probably quite a few, since divorce is common even among evangelicals.

  • Bones

    Does it? Darn!

  • Bones

    The Bible isn’t clear on this subject at all.

    It is clear about women being silent.

    I take it you don’t hold to that and prefer ear tickling.

  • Bones

    People will say and do anything – particularly trying to make gods word say what they want – to justify their own bigotry and hatred of others.

  • Bones

    As Jesus said, those who claim they can see, their sin remains.

    Or to paraphrase – the light’s are on but no one’s home.

  • Bones

    It would never be a cult that you’re part of that’s for sure.

  • Bones

    So you’re satan.

    Once again you need to take Paul’s advice on women being silent.

    Oops, don’t like that one do ya.

  • Bones

    8 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 Early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people were coming to Him; and He sat down and began to teach them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees *brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court,4 they *said to Him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?” 6 They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground. 7 But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court. 10 Straightening up, Jesus said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?” 11 She said, “No one, [a]Lord.” Then Sharon slithered out from behind Jesus and said “Stop falling for the teaching that tickles people’s ears, Jesus. I condemn you, you whore.”

  • Bones

    Actually even they would condemn your attitude on here.

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    So, you want to go with God’s definition, eh? I’ll take it that’s the biblical definition?

    1 Corinthians 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

    -peers about for a mention of “love is between a man and a woman” and finds nothing-

  • seashell

    Maybe she’s a plant!

    I’m sure you didn’t just mean to diss plants :-)

  • seashell

    …but perhaps you should read some of the words from Jesus to the churches as written in Revelation.

    Why? This may come as a shock, but I’m not a church.

  • seashell

    Eris, I agree. Paragraphs mean something. Grammarians 1:1

  • Don B

    I definitely agree with you , Guy : ) Our behavior will change if we let God live HIS life through us. But sin has been with us so long that it seems like it is a part of us, our new nature, but it isn’t. Sex isn’t the problem. It’s when we allow it , the gift, to usurp the gift giver , God. We end up idolizing it instead of the One who gave it to us.
    We do sin, but sin is not us.
    I totally agree. You can never be the same once you’ve been born again. We can live like the world–live after the flesh–but we will always be in the Spirit as Paul says in Romans 8.
    Before Christ, it was all about me and satisfying my desires. I actually thought I was at least as good as and better than most people : ) talk about pride. But I had no concept of sin before i was saved. The Bible showed me that sin was against God. That had never even occurred to me. It hit me like a knife. And for the first time I saw that He died for us, for me. I had always thought that the Jews killed Jesus–not that He willingly died for US. Life for me has never been the same since.

  • RonnyTX

    Sharon to Jeff:
    Hmm–so adultery is good? How about pedophiles?

    Ronny to Sharon:

    I’ve had my share of people accusing me of being a pedophile, since I’m a gay male. So a long while back, I studied up on that word, just to be as sure as I could, about exactly what it meant? And I found out it meant a person 15/16 years old and up to the oldest adult, who are exclusively attracted, either or both emotionally and sexually to prepubescent children. And then I ran upon a discuss group online, that was for Christians who are pedophile. That shocked me at first; but then it shouldn’t have. Then I thought about people, Christian or not, who are pedophile. And I had/have emphathy for those people. And I think about the ones who are Christian and church members. For the largest part, they can’t even talk about such, with their fellow Christians. For the largest part, they can’t even bring up ans discuss that part of themselves. So they are simply shamed and left in shame, because they are something they had no choice in being. And they are left without help, from the very people who should be listening to them, praying for them and helping them to be sure they don’t do something, that would hurt a child. And when we in the church, who are not pedophile, when we do that way, we just assure more people are hurt, including young children.

    Sharon to Jeff:

    It was all good until disobedience came-Sin causes separation from God and always an ugly consequence–but mercy and Jesus bring hope, redemption, change, salvation if we repent!

    Ronny to Sharon:

    Sharon, I would put it that it was not perfect, until sin came. What I mean by that is, God did not create Adam and Eve, in the state God meant them to stay in. For to start with, they did not know good or evil. And a person has to know about and experience evil, to really appreciate that which is good. And that is exactly what God chose and caused to come about, for Adam and Eve.

    And above, you said sin causes separation from God. Well, it may look that way from the way we humans see it; but such can’t really be true from God’s side of it. For even before the foundation of the world, even before God created Adam and Eve, the plan was already in place for Jesus Christ to reconcile everyone back to God the Father and that by way of the cross and Jesus Christ there, taking everyones sins upon himself. So though human being didn’t know or understand it, God had all things worked out, before time even began. :-) What was God’s plan? For mankind to learn, from experiencing both good and evil. For without the evil, we would never fully understand, just how good, good really is. :-) So even before time began, even before there was a created Adam and Eve, even before that, all humans that were to ever be, were already reconciled back to God the Father and that by way of Jesus Christ and the cross. :-)

    Sharon to Jeff:
    It was all good until disobedience came-Sin causes separation from God and always an ugly consequence–but mercy and Jesus bring hope, redemption, change, salvation if we repent!

    Ronny to Sharon:
    Sharon, it’s not a matter of if we repent; but instead it’s simply a matter of when we repent. It’s simply a matter of when/the time God has chosen for each person to come to repentance. For it is truly the goodness of God, that brings each person to repentance. :-) So those that God has brought to repentance already, they have no right,room or reason to think themself better than and or look down on others, who God has yet to bring to repentance. And before all is said and done, God will bring everyone to repentance and take them on to faith in Jesus Christ and what he did for them personally, on the cross. :-) Why will God/Jesus Christ do that for every last person, from Adam on down? Simply, because God/Jesus Christ is love! :-)

  • RonnyTX

    Jeff, I’m sure not surprised, that Sharon equated being homosexual with being pedophile. So many people have been wrongly taught those things are one and the same. And I’m sure many people got that wrong belief, from some preachers. And they can’t disbelieve what their particular preachers say, because they been taught that listening to and completely believing such people, is the same as their listening to and believing God. That’s not true of course; but I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that such was the biggest sin, taught as a truth, in so many denominational churches!

  • RonnyTX

    Amen Swiper, amen! :-) For no one who has been born of God,has a right or reason to look down on anyone. For yes, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. And it is God, the love of God/Jesus Christ, that brings, at the time of God’s choosing, each person back into a right relationship with God. So since God/Jesus Christ does that for the person, how can they look down on anyone and think, oh look at me and how good I am. Look at me and how much better I am than those sinners over there! (ha) LoL I have to laugh at that way sometime; but it’s really a sad thing, when some people have been taught and believe such sinful delusions. For they got that wrong way of thinking and believing from some people and not from God/Jesus Christ.

  • Don B

    Hey, Seashell. My sleuthing found this : ) I know Ben lives in Auburn, ME. And Tracy is his wife. I did find an addres for Tracy Corey In Auburn, ME. I couldn’t find an address myself for Ben.

  • Anne Gull

    According to the Bible, divorce is not good.

  • Anne Gull

    Heard of NAMBLA? Heard of Harvey Milk?

  • RonnyTX

    Sharon to Jeff:
    Yes, He created you. How sad it is that you, like the rest of us, decide to sin against your Almighty Creator. Repent and believe!

    Ronny to Sharon:
    Sharon, repentance is a gift of God to lost human beings. And as scripture well tells us, it is the goodness of God that brings us to repentance. So we have nothing to brag about, over another. For it is God who brings us to repentance, as we’re being born of God. And we all sin, yet scripture also plainly tells us, that we all died in Adam. But scripture doesn’t leave us there. For it also tells us, that all who died in Adam, will be make alive in Jesus Christ. :-)

    “20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” 1 Corinthians 15:20,28

  • Anne Gull

    Like you said above, when truly repentant, those who have committed adultery, seek forgiveness and do not sin in that way again. Likewise, those who have engaged in homosexual behavior and truly repent of such behavior, they too choose not to sin in that way again. Needless to say, this is possible with Jesus’ strength and guidance. The problem comes in when people make a selfish practice of habitually committing the same sin – besetting sin, so to speak.

  • Anne Gull

    The Bible declares that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. That’s all I was saying. I know nothing about you personally, Jeff. What I said to you was not meant as a personal attack. I’m sorry that’s how you understood it.

  • RonnyTX

    Anne to Eris:
    Dear reader, homosexuality came as a result of the fall. God did not create it. Nor did He pronounce it “good.” It matters not that you believe it to be good. It’s not and He doesn’t want us to rejoice in sin.

    Ronny to Anne:
    No, it was death that came to the whole human race, as the result of Adams sin; but what Adam did there, Jesus Christ completely undone! :-)

    “20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” 1 Corinthians 15:20,28

  • Jeff Preuss

    NAMBLA is disgusting, and reviled by much of the gay community. Milk? I certainly don’t condone a man in his 30s dating a 16-year old, much as I assume you don’t condone Roman Polanski’s child rape.

    Gay does not automatically equal pedophile – what a disgusting stereotype you are maliciously perpetuating.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Not meant that way? BULL.

  • Anne Gull

    How sad it is you speak as if you don’t believe in the power of Jesus to transform minds, hearts and lives for His glory and our good.

  • RonnyTX

    Just thinking Sam, gay old me and I have a brother who has 7 children! :-)

  • Anne Gull

    Wow, that’s great to be lively and vivacious!

  • Anne Gull

    That’s nothing to joke about.

  • Anne Gull

    It’s not opinion.

  • Clay Tablet

    Exactly!

  • Herm

    Anne, there is sadness here but not for Jeff or Ronny. You are mouthing the theology that you adopted from your church. I do not believe in the possibility of Jesus Christ. I personally know Jesus Christ as more real than you. I am, without ceasing, since I gave up all of my Man taught theology as despicable to have a child’s fresh heart and mind, now being taught only by Jesus through the word of God in me. Now, today, I do not adopt any theologies of mankind for I have been adopted as a little child of God whelmed (baptized) by the Holy Spirit.

    Repent, as you used it, means to despise all the influences of mankind that keep you from becoming a student of Jesus. The following tells of how you may repent and know for certain the Messiah as your only Teacher.

    “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26-27

  • Femi Emmanuel

    Dear Jeff,

    Let us walk us take advantage of the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ to walk in truth and not seek a refuge in lies.

    Sodom was destroyed for its sins chiefly the sexually perverted lifestyle of homosexuality or sodomy. I post again some light on this matter that was posted earlier for you to consider:

    1. The Lord confirmed the original meaning of marriage to be between a man and a woman; in like manner between Him and the natural Israel and similarly between Him and the spiritual Israel (the church, the bride of Christ). There are so many scriptures from the old and the new testament including all the words of the Lord presenting this as the truth. I have also contributed earlier with scriptures some days ago. Many of the contributors have put forth scriptures and words spoken by the Lord in the gospels which we can read again and to which my spirit bears witness.

    I pray the Spirit of truth will grant understanding to as many as are willing to accept this truth and who will be willing to do His will in this matter.

    May the Lord grant abundance of grace to do His will for He is the one “that worketh in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure”.

    However, because of men’s fallen nature polygamy and divorce became issues which were never in the original plan of the Lord with which the Lord forbear. Deception, frailties in the human nature (and other fruits of the fallen nature) resulted in polygamy and divorce.

    2. Sodomy is both a physical and spiritual condition or state of living.

    The physical form of sodomy (referring to sexual relationship between a man and another man. Also sexual relationship between a woman and another woman) was an abomination to God and which attracted his condemnation and judgement.

    Gen 19:4-5, Deut 23:17, 1Kings 14 & 15, 2Kings 23:7

    Physical sodomy is usually close to and feeds idolatory and satan worship in one way or the other.

    Can we ask ourselves, why are the current rulers of this present world (who submit to satan the prince of this world) so eager to please their master by preaching the gospel of sodomy?

    Sodomy is also a spiritual condition of unfaithfulness to the Lord, life of self indulgence, wickedness and abominable living before the Lord.
    Please read Isa 1:1-17, Exe 16: 48-50.

    May the Lord deliver his saints and as many as are willing from the prince of the power of the air even the spirit that worketh rebellion towards God and from all abominable lifestyle.

    3. God destroyed the city of Sodom due to its wickedness and sinfulness the chief among which were the sins of sodomy and fornication.

    Please read Gen 13:13 and the practices of the men of Sodom in Gen 19:1-25.

    The apostles of the Lamb and apostle Paul also confirmed this to be the case in 2Pet 2:6-10, Jude 7, Rom 1:25-27.

    It was so bad in Sodom that men were willing to rape men to satisfy their sexual depravity.

    Lot even offered them his virgin daughters but this men of depraved mind will not have the virgins and turned on the strangers that had just entered town.

    What a perversion? what manner of demonic sexual orientation is this that they were ready to defile even angels?

    We need to pray and intercede for all that we come across, that are close to us, all that we can reach that the Lord might have mercy on their souls and deliver them from this spirit of uncleanness that they may escape the judgement of the Lord. We need to show love to them in showing them the truth and warning them of the consequences of being primed by satan for God’s judgement.

    These perverted orientations are beyond many and satan even starts his activity right from the womb in some cases just like the Holy Spirit is able to start His work upon a man from the womb.

    The enemy of our souls wants to make humanity abominable unto God and thus make humanity candidates of God’s anger and judgement which he (satan) himself is already a candidate with his host of demons.

    4. The sins of adultery and fornication are equally detestable to the Lord and should never be taken lightly. All sexual perversions are abominable in the sight of the Lord.

    May the Lord shine His light brightly upon you and all of us that seek to walk in Him who is the way the truth and the life.

    May we go unto perfection until an end is put to sin and all manifestations of the fall in Adam as we live in holiness and righteousness which are the characteristics of the new nature that is made available in Christ Jesus.

  • According to the Bible, one should test everything and hold fast to what is good, yet here we are with a subculture that believes putting a toe outside the box is treasonous and should be harshly punished. Amazing! It’s as if no one learned a thing.

  • Femi Emmanuel

    Dear Anne,
    There is a problem that is common among us that call ourselves Christians in this age, we usually camp at one extreme or the other fighting and condemning one another rather than rightly dividing the word of truth.

    We label some fundamentalists or conservatives or liberals or progressives and so many other labels and fight our ‘holy wars’ by taking positions in these camps with our camp members applauding not minding what the Spirit and the Word (spoken and written) are saying in most cases.

    Many times we are either to much in the letter without the Spirit or too much in the Spirit ( which is sometimes doubtful considering the fruit being manifested) without even the letter of the scriptures as a baseline.

    We cannot say Ben is a Bully even though many of his writings might be right or wrong; acceptable to us or not acceptable to us.

    Let us learn to speak the truth in love with plenty of grace that leads men to salvation. Salvation for us is in phases until our soul is fully redeemed and we are perfected when we meet Him face to face.

    We must realize that no part of the church, whatever denominations might have resulted or the cause of these divisions, has the whole truth. We must therefore speak unto the edification of the whole body of Christ.
    We do mot have to seek the approval of men, nor the approval of the world nor the approval of our groups but seek only the Lord’s approval in edifying one another according to the measure of grace He has given to each one of us.

    God bless you and all that seek Him and are willing to be conformed fully to His image and likeness (in love, holiness, righteousness, grace and truth) on this forum and in the Church as a whole.

    Peace.

  • You’re far from the only one. It’s a bizarre fact, but the siblings of gay children tend to have more offspring than siblings without a gay brother or sister. Philoprogenitiveness seems to follow in families with a gay child.

  • I like how you define “following Jesus” as doctrinal orthodoxy and “the Gospel” as instructions to stop sinning.

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    How sad it is that you feel the need to be passive aggressive rather than make actual points or respond to the points that people have actually made.

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    As a woman who was sexually abused by her father as a child, let me express in the strongest terms possible that I am tired beyond all words of people comparing homosexuality to pedophilia. It minimizes the damage that is done by pedophilia, obscures the reasons that pedophilia is wrong, and in general is just offensive. I wish people would stop doing it.

  • KIZMET

    I would love to make a contribution and I would be more than happy to after Christmas and New Years. I however run a NFP organisation in aiding homelessness, houselessness and poverty and at this time of year, my own purse empties out pretty quick. If however he does something akin to this in his own area,in the meantime I would be more than happy to aid in getting product and produce they could use? That is all I can do for now,but Don.B your gesture for Ben is lovely. :)

  • Jeff Preuss

    “Sodom was destroyed for its sins chiefly the sexually perverted lifestyle of homosexuality or sodomy.”
    No. It wasn’t. Read Ezekiel. Thank you, but I am not taking refuge in lies. My life is not one of sexual perversion. This is something in my life that the Lord and I are actually at peace with, and it does NOT run counter to His will for me.

    “Lot even offered them his virgin daughters but this men of depraved mind
    will not have the virgins and turned on the strangers that had just
    entered town.”
    Do be careful not to rely too heavily upon the Lot story as a basis for sexual ethics, since Lot’s daughters later committed incest with him to propagate their bloodline, something that was not condemned in Lot’s story. If you are to take the Lot story as definitive that “homosexuality=bad,” then to remain true to the “literal” meaning, you’d have to take incest as good.

  • Jeff Preuss

    It’s also quite hypocritical in declaring it so definitively a gay thing, especially considering the very public reveal of conservative Christian poster child Josh Duggar’s incestuous molestation of his sisters, as well as subsequent confessed adultery. But, we aren’t allowed hold that to be something that represents straight people as a whole…because we haven’t already convinced ourselves in our minds that straight=bad the same way some have convinced themselves gay=bad.

  • Ron McPherson

    “…. when truly repentant, those who have committed adultery, seek forgiveness and do not sin in that way again. Likewise, those who have engaged in homosexual behavior and truly repent of such behavior, they too
    choose not to sin in that way again.”

    There are a couple of problems with this (hope I’m not
    sounding like a total rear end, just speaking on how I’ve come to be enlightened myself). First, the tacit suggestion that being gay can be reduced to a ‘behavior’ (i.e. a sex act) makes it easier to preach against because it
    allows for the de-humanization of another. Secondly, it opens itself up to very legitimate charges of hypocrisy. Why? Because there are things all of us need to repent of and don’t (i.e. materialism, greed, not properly caring for the poor – i.e. the things Jesus spent much focus on).

    Also, adultery was defined by Jesus as often involving more than something that could be easily rectified by merely choosing “not to sin in that way again.” For instance, when one divorces and remarries (for reasons
    other than how Jesus defined as legit) they are living in an adulterous state. Practically speaking, how must a repentant person choose “not to sin in that way again” as long as they stay married? Is that how we define repentance? If so, then to stay married in that state would be to continue to live in that adulterous relationship and thus, not be true repentance. There’s no wiggle
    room here.

    I’m not casting judgment on persons who have divorced and remarried. On the contrary, what I’m suggesting is that God’s grace covers anyone who is in Christ. And the church seems to get it on this one. But yet, when one believes homosexuality to be sinful, why must it fall under a different umbrella than all other sins which are covered? When one doesn’t allow for this possibility, or when one contextualizes Scripture for themselves on areas in
    which they stand guilty themselves, and yet refuses to afford gay Christians the same right to interpret differently the ‘gay’ passages in question, then that’s hypocrisy. There’s just no way around it. It’s just not enough to say
    that the Bible says it and that settles it because none of us live according to that rule on all things. Not wanting to argue on this one but just hoping you’ll seriously give this some thought. It took me a while to get there as well. Just
    trying to be honest.

    Peace.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Thanks for your thoughts, Ron!

  • seashell

    Thank you, Sherlock (and Google) !
            Love, Dr. Watson.

  • IKnowRight.png

  • Jeff Preuss

    Almost seems like there could be some sort of evolutionary filter to prompt the sibling (with whatever genes that might need to be weeded out before the next generation) to not procreate, while ensuring the sibling with the important genes…makes a bunch of babies.

    Y’know. Species survival. Natural.

  • Might as well wade in, although don’t know if will do much good, as you seem pretty convinced God approves your message. First of all, gun control is not the topic of this particular blog thread, although it has been elsewhere. So let’s stay on topic. You mention Jerry Jr. and Franklin Graham. Ben and others here come down hard on them because the wield a great deal of power and influence in Evangelical circles, for better or for worse.

    “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. ” (George Santayana)

    Isn’t it ironic that the loudest voices against the LGBTQ movement for equality come from Southern Baptist backgrounds? Looking back at that denominations history of discrimination based on their “reading” of Scripture it would seem they would be the least qualified to give moral instruction. What do the historical SB attitudes toward slavery, integrated marriage and segregation have to do with SSM you might ask? Everything.

    You see, the same hermeneutical presuppositions that led the SB church to dehumanize blacks are being used today by evangelicals again against Gays. Namely, plenary (word for word) inspiration coupled with literal (legalistic) application. Your “did God really say that” comment reveals you hold this view as well. When one holds to the view that every word in Scripture is “God speaking” and must be taken literally, then there is no need to discover the underlying “intent” of that passage.

    A good example of finding the intent can be found in Matt 5. “You have heard it said, thou shall not commit adultry, but I say unto you, whoever looks at a woman lustfully has committed adultry in his heart.” Here Jesus sidesteps the literal reading of the commandment to reveal the underlying intention of God’s law. For the Pharisees it was enough to keep the law in its literal sense. For Jesus it was about understanding the underlying Godly intent of respecting women and oneself as well as thinking thoughts pleasing to God.

    I won’t address your comment by Jesus about divorce, as he was answering a question about divorce, not SSM. Really, why does this keep coming up? So, in order to deal with SSM, you need to look at the Biblical passages in their historical social setting, understand what the Biblical writer was responding to THEN try to figure out how it can be fairly applied to circumstances NOW. If you are honest you will see the situation today does not mirror that of the various Semitic tribes in the ancient near east, nor that of Rome in Paul’s time.

    So, if God’s intention was to keep Israel free of intanglement with the pagan practices of other Semitic people groups that had SS religious rites and later, to keep the early church from involvement with the sexual hedonism of Rome, we need to ask ourselves, are those things being practiced by Gays in today’s society? And I’m not talking about promiscuity here, straights do that as well. An honest answer would be to admit things are not really the same.

    What is the intent of the Adam-Eve story? Procreation, companionship, a suitable helper, family? First off, the whole story is prehistoric, pre-Judaic and pre-Christian, with names like “man” for the male and “living/life” for the woman it is hard to take to much of it literally. But that does not mean that there is no Godly intent behind the stories. God looked among the animals and could find no suitable helpmate for Adam. We now know non-straight individuals can and do find suitable helpmates. Family: Gays marry and adopt children and form wonderful families (part of the findings during SCOTUS…opponents could not prove otherwise). The desire for companionship, that you call sin, is actually ingrained by God in all of us. So please don’t deny others the God-given drive to find a suitable life partner.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    He knew the sinful, unrepentant hearts of her accusers—who wanted to condemn her–but as they left–recognizing they had been called out for their own sin–Jesus told her–Go and sin no more. You people love to forget that. For someone your age, you sure have immature thinking–but it matches your picture.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    i do remain silent. I let my pastor speak. Obviously you haven’t studied on the conditions and settings for this wise teaching. I like it a lot!

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Get educated…

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    I don’t hate others–I love them more than you, and don’t want them going down the destructive path. Do what u want. It’s not bigotry to say—you’re twisting Gods word.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Yes–and I know the problems they face. But at least they don’t insult their maker by in their actions–reject his amazing, functional design. Your complaint is legitimate–but at least there’s a natural God given attraction of male:female–anything that God says not to do (sin) brings pain. No one applauds divorce–but adultery and desertion exempted–others require repentance too . The other is epitome of rebellion against God–(disguised in love) which has even worse consequences and they suck others into the perverted thinking.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Ridiculous comment. I think you object a bit much to any challenge

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Oh please..truth is painful–especially when you’re unwilling to face it.

  • Ahh, so it’s like that. Well, I’m sure you’re very confident in your ideas, so I’ll leave you to them.

    May you find harmony, man of clay.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    I feel no hatred–you’re just overly sensitive, and hate to be challenged. It’s pride–God resists the proud. Just reread the word with a surrendered heart

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Cruelty, shame..what an overly sensitive personality that isn’t up to a challenge and an unwillingness to look again with a straight reading of those scriptures that address the topic. You shouldn’t have to attack me–maybe appease of conscious

  • Love does no harm to a neighbor, man of clay, and the fruits of this are known in the forms of homelessness, despair, sickness and death — all things you were instructed on, and all things you continually find reasons to ignore.

    The goats never think they are the sinners when the time comes to see beyond the cloudy mirror.

    Reflect on your sins and find harmony before harmony finds you.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Jesus said. He will leave mother and father and cling to his wife–(not another “husband”)and his word condemns women laying with women (unnatural function) and no men with men. If you’re missing this in gods word–which Jesus is God–come to earth- then you need to find another “religion” if you don’t even have respect for his truth sent to us humans!

  • Bones

    The accusers’ hearts are just like yours. They hide behind a veneer of self-righteousness but it was them that Jesus condemned. Not the adulterous woman.

    Jesus never condemned her. You people love to forget that. For someone your age, you sure have immature thinking,

  • Bones

    There’s nothing challenging about your rabid posts.

    I can see sex is always on your mind. Maybe you should stop projecting that onto others.

  • Bones

    You are no different to white supremacists or anti-semites.

    You are all tarred with the same brush looking for some reason to hate others.

    When you decide to get down off your high horse, you might even be part of the Kingdom of God.

    Because at the moment, not only are you not part of it, you are against it.

  • Bones

    Now you’re making stuff up.

    No wonder Paul commanded you to keep quiet.

    It’s precisely because of women like you.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Are you unwilling to face the truth of your small heart? I guess that must hurt.

    Now, even though it’s been absolutely delightful to chat with you (actually, no it hasn’t – you’ve behaved wretchedly), I have much to do, since it is the Christmas season, the season we celebrate the birth of our Lord Jesus. I have presents to wrap for my family, and for my husband’s family, and so much singing to do to celebrate this time.

    Perhaps if you are able to find something to celebrate and build up instead of tearing others down, you might find your heart able to grow three sizes that day.

    Until then, I am so very sorry that you find such trouble with the salvation I already have in Jesus, and that you cannot prevent me from receiving His grace like you’d like to. Merry Christmas to you!

  • Jeff Preuss

    Well, I imagine she likes to wear clothing of mixed fibers, and therefore that law does not apply to her.

  • seashell

    Oh please..truth is painful–especially when you’re unwilling to face it.

    WTF is wrong with you and why are you hounding a nice guy over something that is (a) none of your business, and (b) something that you seem to take great perverted pleasure in doing? Consider seeing a therapist for help.

  • BrotherRog

    Good stuff as always Benjamin! On a similar botanical theme, I contend that the Christian tree of the future will a) be different than the current tree, and b) that it will grow out of the nurse log of our rotting corpse. “Christianity in Crisis: from fear to faith.” http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogerwolsey/2015/01/christianity-in-crisis-from-fear-to-faith/

  • Bones

    Merry Christmas Jeff. Don’t let the turkeys get you down.

  • Elaine Ambrose

    Excellent little article . . . but may I just add – “The Blood of American Christianity Will Be The Seed Of The Church” . . . FOR AMERICA. We are not a one American size fits all the world, Benjamin. What happens and changes in the States is for the States, not the for the global church. American culture is not the same as European culture or Australasia, Asia, Middle East, Far East, North Africa, south Africa etc etc. x

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    Well, aren’t you a friendly, loving one, telling your neighbor to stop following Jesus altogether if they don’t agree with you on one issue? Tsk tsk. Ah, well.

    Anyway, the whole “cleave to your wife/husband thing” was Jesus speaking out against divorce and remarriage, not against homosexuality. Do you speak against divorce and remarriage, Sharon? Do you do it with the same passion you do with homosexuality? Or is that passage something you just like to reinterpret for your own purposes? As for the rest of it, either 1) No He doesn’t 2) It’s in the OT, the same place that says you don’t get to wear multi-fabric blends. Do you wear multi-fabric blends, Sharon?

  • Jeff Preuss

    Not even possible, my friend. When a ‘literalist’ dismisses Scripture from Ezekiel as a goofy theory and a fairytale, it’s clear there is no credible challenge from their protestations. When people want to keep Jesus all to themselves, it seems they miss the whole point of the Gospels.

    Merry Christmas to you!

  • Thank-you Benjamin for a well thought out article. I hope you do not mind but I have re-posted (linked) it on my blog http://www.thepostmodernchristian.com. I share with you and many others the hope that we will see a day soon where conservative/fundamentalism will no longer be viewed in our culture as the voice of Evangelical Christianity.

  • Anne Gull

    Death was not the only hard consequence that came to this world as a result of the fall. Of course the most horrific and lasting consequence is that of eternal death to those who reject Jesus Christ.

  • Anne Gull

    “The heart has its reasons which reason knows nothing of.” ~Blaise Pascal

  • Anne Gull

    The difference between these two scenarios is that God created sex to take place between a male and a female. That’s His natural order.

  • Jeff Preuss

    How wonderful, then, that Ronny does not reject our Savior!

  • Ron McPherson

    “The difference between these two scenarios is that God
    created sex to take place between a male and a female. That’s His natural order.”

    So when I presented a biblical argument showing how our conservative Christian culture reflects hypocrisy by allowing for adulterous hetero relationships but not gay relationships of any kind, you merely validated the problem by suggesting that unrepentant heterosexual activity is ok because that’s God’s ‘natural order.’ Wow, at least you’re admitting there is a double standard, which most
    won’t do. Problem is that you seem to condone it. Oh well, there’s not much left for me to say after that.

  • RonnyTX

    Sharon to Sam:
    Yes–and I know the problems they face. But at least they don’t insult their maker by in their actions–reject his amazing, functional design. Your complaint is legitimate–but at least there’s a natural God given attraction of male:female–anything that God says not to do (sin) brings pain. No one applauds divorce–but adultery and desertion exempted–others require repentance too . The other is epitome of rebellion against God–(disguised in love) which has even worse consequences and they suck others into the perverted thinking.

    Ronny to Sharon:
    It seems to me Sharon, that you’re saying I was in rebellion against God, simply because at 12 years old, I found that I was attracted to some males and not to females. But then before I found this out about myself, at that young age, I didn’t even know about gay people or gay couples. So are you saying Sharon, that’s it’s your belief, that I and other gay people, chose to be gay?

  • Holy non-sequitur, Batman!

  • Paul wrote an incredibly long letter to the Romans. He would be very upset that you insist on only reading the very beginning.

  • Even that wasn’t why Sodom was destroyed – as you no doubt noticed in Eris’ response to Sharon. Which makes perfect sense, when you think about it; the attempted gang rape happens after the angels have explicitly said that they’re going to destroy the cities. Therefore, that event can’t be the reason they’re being destroyed, unless it’s being used as a literary device to illustrate the sins of the cities, which would mean that it’s not a true historical event.

  • Guy Norred

    I see nothing in your posts here that would suggest you have taken your own advise–in fact it all appears directed toward you. If you do decide to take your own advise, I suggest you might start with your beloved Romans 1, but again, don’t stop there. In any event I will leave you with a prayer of Paul’s.

    “I pray that, according to the riches of his glory, he may grant that you may be strengthened in your inner being with power through his Spirit, and that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith, as you are being rooted and grounded in love. I pray that you may have the power to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.”
    Ephesians 3:16-19

    Peace to you and us all

  • RonnyTX

    Anne to Ronny:
    Heard of NAMBLA? Heard of Harvey Milk?

    Ronny to NAMBLA:
    Yes, I’ve heard of NAMBLA. That because I found it common online and in various groups, for it to be said that I must be a pedophile, because I was a gay male. And it’s been a long time since I looked this up; but it seems to me that NAMBLA is a group of people who favor it being legal for adults to have sexual relations with kids, even prepubescent kids! :-( It seems to me, they don’t much care how young the kid is and that’s sick to me! :-( But people who belong to NAMBLA, they are pedophile and that’s not the same thing at all, as being gay. As I said before, pedophile is someone 15 or 16 years old and up to the oldest adult, who is attracted, sexually and or emotionally to prepubescent children. These people are not attracted to some one their age,be they teens or already adult. So being pedophile, that has nothing to do with being gay, bisexual or heterosexual.

    As far as Harvey Milk, I’ve not read that much on him; but I have read that when he was in his 30’s, he had sexual relations with a young man who was 16 years old. And I don’t condone that; but if it was consensual relations, then it wasn’ty near as bad as what happened in the family of a sister–in-law of mine. I don’t know about her for certain; but their Dad sexually abused both of his younger daughters. :-) And one of his grandaughters as well! And that started when she was so young, that she doesn’t even know how young she was at the time! :-( Now that, is pedophilia and it’s wrong and it’s a sin against a child.

  • Jeff Preuss

    It seems to me that the attempted sexual assault on the visiting angels was but the tipping point, and certainly not the only thing with which God was displeased, since the Lord had already told Abraham of His plan to destroy the city in the previous chapter (and earlier chapters didn’t paint King Bera as a good man). Of course, that is also later supported by the passage in Ezekiel. And this is all from a literal reading of the story.

    Of course, a literal reading of the story also has Lot sacrifically offering his daughters to the rapey mob, to no complaint or condemnation. (A stand-up move, Bible hero.)
    Lot’s wife turning to salt for…peeking. (Parents might employ this threat in the name of Santa…)
    Lot’s daughters getting him drunk to conceive Moab and Ammon to continue their bloodline. (Again, with no apparent consequences for the incest.)

    Yet, from ALL of that info, present IN the Scriptures, the major takeaway we’re expected to get literally is that homosexuals are evil? I don’t buy it.

    (Also, I’ve always wondered. God said He would not destroy the city if the angels could find TEN righteous in its midst. The story tells of all the men of the city coming to Lot’s house — where are all the women? Are all of them equally unrighteous? Are there maybe not ten righteous women in Sodom? How do we know? Or does their moral worth not count in the patriarchal numbers game? Seems a literal reading to the Sodom story leaves MUCH out, and literalists don’t want to accept they’re inserting their own opinions…)

  • RonnyTX

    Eris, I am so sorry that happened to you! :-( The same happened to a niece of mine and her two aunts, all molested by the aunt’s Dad. :-(

  • I’m not sure I’m even willing to grant it as a tipping point; in large part, because if the rape mob is in any way part of God’s decision to condemn the cities, and it occurs after God condemns them, then best-case scenario God’s vengefully engaging in entrapment. “I know that, if these conditions are met, those people will commit a sin that will demand their destruction. So, let’s go ahead and set those conditions in place. I want to see some fire, me dammit.”

    Which is of course not to say that the rape mob thing wasn’t reprehensible. But if (for a rather grim illustration) a death row inmate shivved another inmate on the night before his execution, we wouldn’t say that he was being executed for killing that other inmate. He was already condemned.

  • RonnyTX

    Anne to Ronny:
    Like you said above, when truly repentant, those who have committed adultery, seek forgiveness and do not sin in that way again.

    Ronny to Anne:
    Anne, can you quote where I said that? For what I have said and believe, is that it is God, the goodness of God who leads us to repentance. And though we repent before God of a sin we’ve committed, that does not mean that we will never, ever commit the same again. For we may very well do that very thing and God will bring us to repentance again.

    Anne to Ronny:
    Likewise, those who have engaged in homosexual behavior and truly repent of such behavior, they too choose not to sin in that way again. Needless to say, this is possible with Jesus’ strength and guidance. The problem comes in when people make a selfish practice of habitually committing the same sin – besetting sin, so to speak.

    Ronny to Anne:
    Anne, your mistake here is that not all homosexual behavior is sin. Just as not all heterosexual behavior is sin. But on both sides, yes we can commit sins, with that God given part of our being. But just as surely, with that God given part of ourself, we can also use it to express out love, for another person. :-)

  • Jeff Preuss

    Understood. It just seems that the angels were sent to find ten righteous among the city, and the story might illustrate they were unable to do so (although it doesn’t specifically say that in 19, come to think of it) so maybe it wouldn’t have mattered even if they had, as God’s judgment had already been made.

    It’s just maddening to watch later references to Sodom’s sexual immorality be used as a blanket “confirmation” that homosexuality is immoral, since people are often lumping it in under that immorality umbrella (even when it’s not specifically included) based on the destruction story. Which they’re assuming to have been destroyed because of homosexuality, because they already think it immoral. It’s circular.

  • Yeah, no kidding. It’s one of the reasons I don’t like including Jude as one of the primary “clobber” passages, even though I think it’s technically on the list (if such a list were ever to be written down); Jude is only about homosexuality if Sodom/Gomorrah is, and yet it gets used as “evidence” that Sodom’s sin was homosexuality, because “it says sexual immorality, and with Sodom what else could it possibly be?” Circular logic at its most reductive.

  • RonnyTX

    Anne to Ronny:
    Death was not the only hard consequence that came to this world as a result of the fall. Of course the most horrific and lasting consequence is that of eternal death to those who reject Jesus Christ.

    Ronny to Anne:
    Anne, please reread that scripture I posted above, 1 Corinthians 15:20,28. There it says,for in Adam all die,even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Then in verse 26 we’re told, that the last enemy Jesus Christ is going to destroy, is death. :-) And I’m sure you also know the scripture Anne, that tells us that it’s the goodness of God that brings a lost person to repentance. Now Anne,since these things are in scripture and they are so, then how can there be any eternal death, for any person?

  • RonnyTX

    And thank you too Kirk. :-) I want to say more too now; but have to get offline soon. So just wanted to really thank you for mentioning Justin Lee and his book, Torn. Got myself over to Amazon.com and found a good hardback edition of that book and for less than $6! :-) So ordered that and now have my first Christmas gift on the way! :-) LoL And found more pages on Justin and re’d to one of his posts on one place. So thank you again, for mentioning him in your post to me! :-) P.S. And just noted and saying, my,he’s cute too! :-) LoL

  • seashell

    …God created sex to take place between a male and a female. That’s His natural order.

    Same sex pair bonds occur in nature. They also occur in human nature. Assuming God created both nature and human nature, same sex pair bonds are part of His natural order.

    Your moral disapproval of LGBTQ people is mostly the product of a political party’s strategy for getting out the vote, and not a Biblical principle that God and Jesus dwelled on 24/7, unlike you and Sharon.

  • Anne Gull

    This passage of Scripture refers to those who have surrendered their allegiance to Jesus as receiving eternal life, Ronny. Jesus’ own words in Matthew 7:14 are quite sobering, don’t ya think, “But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

  • Jeff Preuss

    Good thing Ronny has surrendered his allegiance to Christ!

  • Bones

    Given it’s similarities to Judges 19, I would say it is a literary device….

  • Sorry, methinks I should’ve clarified why I added that bit. I feel as though those people who insist that Sodom/Gomorrah is Biblical proof that homosexuality is sinful are the same people who argue that Genesis is 100% factual history. But those two things can’t be true at the same time, since God condemned the two cities before the event in question (which isn’t even about consensual gay sex anyways, as you rightfully pointed out).

  • Bones

    And of course you think you’re entering by the ‘narrow’ gate.

    I think you might be surprised.

    Right wing nutbag Christians are more than a ‘few’.

  • And single!

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Obviously you know nothing about the Bible. No where does it say anything about loving committed homosexual relationships! This is made up for sin coddling. You don’t understand the fulfillment of the OT ceremonial and dietary laws and the carry over of moral sins–that remain moral sins–that we need to resist. I don’t embrace PC evangelism/witnessing–That’s how these ridiculous discussions are needed. Homosexuality regardless of how you’re twisting the clear reading of Gods word–is still sin needing turning away and repentance and strength to resist.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Grow up Bones!

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    If the Bible doesn’t say anything about loving, committed homosexual relationships (as you insist), then clearly it doesn’t condemn loving, committed homosexual relationships. And what I do understand is that this whole idea that the Bible separated moral and dietary sins is bunk. There was no such distinction. Sin was sin. You’re the one who wants to separate the two so that you can condemn what you want and not condemn what you don’t want. You get to congratulate yourself for resisting sin without being tempted because all your temptations are conveniently labeled as acceptable while condemning others for not resisting their’s because their’s are conveniently labeled as unacceptable. You are strong, they are weak. You have repented, they have not. You are righteous, they are not. Feels good, doesn’t it? Unless, of course, it’s all built on a bed of lies.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    The bible is clear–warns over and over in OT to don’t participate–and tells directly in NT to not be involved in this abomination. You honestly don’t understand how moral laws stand as sin in OT & NT. I do repent often–as we all should! But u don’t continue in the sin once u turn from it. There def was a change after Jesus–no wonder you’re in to this heretical stance on homosexuality. The vision of the food coming down (meats included previously forbidden is one example). I’m just telling you the Bible is clear on this sin but other sins haven’t been promoted as something good. That’s one clue Satan is behind it.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    It applies to the topic

  • I never said it didn’t. Rather, what I implied was that your theology was based on an incomplete understanding of Scripture. Paul wrote a whole letter. Telling someone to “read Romans 1” suggests that you think Romans 1 is a complete thought in itself, when it is not, and was never presented as such. So where you say “read Romans 1” I say “read the whole letter and understand what part Romans 1 plays in Paul’s admonitions to the church in Rome.”

  • Bones

    You don’t understand much of anything let alone the Bible.

  • Bones

    Oh I have. I have grown out of your hatred of others. It feels good doesn’t it, that mask of self righteousness.

  • Bones

    Over and over in the Old Testament, hey. Well lets look at the abominations in Leviticus which is the only reference in the OT. A book which is a mishmash of priestly holiness codes most of which Jews don’t even follow. So that basically sums up your justification for hating gays based on the OT.

    As for Paul. Well he hated sex and marriage full stop, let alone gay sex. He didn’t particularly like men with long hair who he said were a disgrace and against nature.

    But we’ll let the long hair and head coverings for women slide and concentrate on what you really hate.

    Gay people loving each other.

  • Bones

    No it doesn’t.

  • seashell

    “But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

    Well, you certainly haven’t found it or you wouldn’t be here insanely condemning LGBTQ people. In the Bible. Jesus never asked you to go out and condemn and exclude, nor did he call homosexuality a sin. The Republican party calls it a sin and you call it a sin, but so far that’s only created more atheists. I’m quite sure that Jesus won’t hold you responsible for anything LGBTQ people might do that offends your moral code, and he’d probably be far happier if you just went off and read a good novel.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Yes u did choose. I would guess at that formative age the Holy Spirit was trying to get your attention and I bet back then, he thought his thoughts wrong (the HS again) and of course the God of this world–satan, is a stronghold and influence on enemy the young in this culture who parents expose to everything –more than ever because of the lies satan is feeding to our very youngest. Satan and his demons with their lies want to bring anyone into their bondage. He/you believed the lie. But as the scriptures say, We once “were” thiefs, adulterers, homosexual,.etc…but by the power and grace of God–His forgiveness when we repent–is available

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Like I said–you’re free to believe what u want at your age–but to try to convince others to that point of view is evil–and the historic Christian church from its beginnings never taught it. The scripture is clear on its condemnation of homosexuality and you are getting so upset because your world is being rattled by another point of view so your only defense is to ridicule and put me down. You say I know nothing –and you haven’t a clue what I know. I’ve read the bible many times. There are some difficult teachings–but this isn’t one of them.

  • Bones

    The historic church has been wrong about many things and has had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the light. Otherwise you’d probably be burned for a witch/heretic,

    The only one rattled here is you hence your hysterical rantings. The world is changing and you are as irrelevant as the pro-slavery mob. Your ramblings are the last cries of a poor soul who has lost their relevance in the world,

    I feel sorry for you.

  • seashell

    Go for it, Bones. Popcorn is out and ready!

  • Bones

    Satan isn’t the god of this world.

    Just because he exists in your mind doesn’t mean it is a reality.

    And there’s nothing evil about our human desires for love and companionship.

    Not that I really care much about what Paul thinks – he thought men with long hair was a disgrace, was against marriage of any kind and returned slaves back to their masters, but arsenokoitai is a word that he made up that could mean anything.

  • Bones

    Everything gets blamed on the Fall – homosexuality, carnivorous animals, liberals, satan, baseball, the 69ers,

    That is not what the story is about.

  • Bones

    Here’s a difficult teaching, not for me , but for you.

    James 2:13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

    So Jesus and James condemn you.

    I feel sorry for you.

  • Bones

    Oh but I have. You’re the one living in ignorance.

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    Alright, you want me to believe that the Jews separated sin into different categories (dietary/ceremonial and moral), some of which were cast down by Jesus’s death (dietary/ceremonial) and some of which were not (moral), then show me where in the Bible it says this. Show me where it says that there are different categories of sins. Show me where it says “dietary and ceremonial sins are no longer applicable, but morals sins are.” Show me where it lists what are moral sins and what are ceremonial sins, showing that mixed fibers wasn’t a moral sin and homosexuality wasn’t a ceremonial sin. Show me. Prove it.

  • I’ve read the bible many times. There are some difficult teachings–but this isn’t one of them.

    That leads to an interesting question of methods. Which version(s) did you read? Were they different translations each time? Were they published by different publishers, with different study notes? Did you ever delve into the original languages?

    I ask because, when last I bothered to count, there were over 100 complete translations of the Bible into English. Over 100 translations different enough to be given a unique name. And somewhere in the vicinity of 100 different Christian publishing companies, all of whom would highlight different lessons and thoughts in any study notes they might choose to include (and many of whom would have different study notes depending on their target audience, e.g. a Bible for teens vs. a Bible for married men). And of course all of these hundreds of different Bibles are on some level interpretations, because they aren’t the original languages.

    Edited to add one more, very important question: when you say you’ve read the Bible many times, is that the whole thing? Because if so, I find it incredibly odd that you called a direct quote from Ezekiel a “goofy theory” and a “fairytale.” Surely, you should have recognized it from the many times you’ve read it?

  • Jeff Preuss

    This isn’t the first time I’ve seen the “some things are questionable but THIS isn’t one of them” argument in regards to homosexuality. As if, other theological topics are actually up for debate, but THIS one is hands off. To me, honestly, it speaks more to the arguer’s obstinance. It also heavily implies that those of us on this side of the issue cannot possibly have reached this conclusion from any actual discernment.

    I believe it means this, and if you believe it doesn’t, you are just being deceived by Satan’s lies.

    (Edit to add: there is also an implied assumption that our opposite position shows that we have NOT also read the Bible many times. And, that’s simply not true.)

  • Anne Gull

    What precisely IS the story about, Bones?

  • RonnyTX

    Sharon to Ronny:
    Yes. You did.

    Ronny to Sharon:
    OK, thank you for your honesty. And by that I can see you believe that at age 12, I chose to be gay and that in spite of the fact that I’d never even heard of or known any gay people or couples. Didn’t even know such existed. Now explain to me Sharon, how you believe I chose to be something, that I knew absolutely nothing about? For all I knew for a fact, at that age, were heterosexual people. Heterosexual males and females who were attracted to each other, wished to date, did date each other, some getting married and of course, some getting divorced. So these are the people I knew about, through personal observation and up to the time I was 12 years old. And in those 12 years, I never knew of a gay person or gay couple. Yet you believe I chose to be something, that I didn’t even know existed. Now explain this one to me Sharon, how can a 12 year old child, chose to be something, that they know nothing about and don’t even know, that such exists?

    Sharon to Ronny:
    I would guess at that formative age the Holy Spirit was trying to get your attention and I bet back then you thought your thoughts wrong (the HS again) and of course the God of this world–satan, is a stronghold and influence on more than ever because of the lies he’s even feeding to our very youngest. Satan and his demons with their lies want to bring anyone into their bondage. You believed the lie and it’s being fed. But as the scriptures say. We once “were” thiefs, adulterers, homosexual,…but by the power and grace of God–His forgiveness when we repent–is available

    Ronny to Sharon:
    Sharon, my experience with God, is when God has chosen for me to repent, God has shown me my sin and I have repented. And indeed a person can do no other, when God shows Himself in their presence and shows the person their sin. Indeed, a person can do no other than, to repent. But at 12 years old, God never told/showed me that my being gay was sin/sinful. No, I simply got to that age and found out that I was attracted to some guys, in the same way some guys and gals I knew and observed, were attracted to some females or males. So all I had to observe,in my growing up years, were heterosexual males and females. And I knew not a thing, about gay male and gay females. No, I simply observed the young male/female couples I saw at school. How they obviously liked each other,walked along hand in hand and sometimes kissed. Well, the latter, if no teacher was about. :-) Now I saw no sin in any of that and I simply desired to do the same; but since I was gay and not heterosexual, I desired to do the same with another male. What I’m saying is, at 12 years old, I simply found out that I was attracted to males and I desired to have a boyfriend. I desired to have a boyfriend,someone I could walk along with hand in hand or arm about the other and sometimes kiss.. :-) I thought back on that in later years and realized, my, you couldn’t get more innocent than that. :-)

    And back at 12 years old, as I say I discovered I was gay and yet I didn’t even know that word or the word homosexual. Had never heard of such. And there might of been some people around me, in school community or church, who were gay? But if there were, I didn’t know it. So I actually came to the wrong conclusion, that I was the only male, that was attracted to some other males and that belief, made me very sad. Why? Because I thought I would always be alone.

    Then in my 12th year, I over heard some of my church leaders talking about those homosexuals. They spoke of them with scorn in their voices,said such was chosen and was the worst of sins. I didn’t know what the word homosexual meant, so had to look it up in my Mom’s medical dictionary. And that’s how I came to find out, they were talking about people like me. :-( And I had also been taught the lie in church, that whatever my church leaders said, that was the same as my hearing such straight from God. Now that was a lie and a taught sin; but as a 12 year old, I didn’t know any better, so I believe such. Which is how I came to wrongly believe my being homosexual, was self chosen and the worst of sins. So I went up at church in tears, believed everything our preacher said about God,Jesus Christ,the Bible,etc. And he thought I’d been saved, so of course, so did I. Then I was baptized and made a member of that local church. Now I didn’t know this at the time; but I had not been saved then; but as I found out and put it later, I merely become a wet Baptist. (ha) :-)

    Four years later though, God directly entered my life and let me know I was lost. God directly let me know I was not in a right relationship with God. And God directed me to a man, who simply read a portion of scripture to me. And as that man did, I knew God was also there. And God let me see my sinful selfrighteousnes and let me compare that to God and God’s holiness. And that was the goodness of God, that brought me to repentance. :-) And just as soon as I had repented, agreed with God about what He has shown me about the sin in my life, just as soon as I agree with God, that is repented, the love of God began to pour out upon me and God put a picture of 3 crosses in my mind. And I knew on that center cross was Jesus Christ and I knew he was there for me, there taking my sins upon himself. And that is how I was born of God. That is how God showed and proved to me, just how greatly God/Jesus Christ loved me. :-) And my first prayer to God, was simply a prayer of thanksgiving, with me thanking God, for what he’d just done for me. :-) And immediately, I went out and started telling others, about what God had just done for me. Well, the desire God gave me, was that every person have the exact same type of relationship with God, as I then had. :-)

    And in God saving me, in my being born of God, God never even brought up my being gay, much less showed me that such was sinful and caused me to repent of such. No, God never did that. I got that belief about my being gay, as sinful and the worst of sins, I got that belief from some church people and not from God. But as I say, at that time I thought my being gay was the worst of sins and I believed that, because of what I overheard some church elders saying. And because of the lie I’d been taught in church, that whatever they said, that had to be always true and was the same as God telling me such. It wasn’t and later God showed me that and freed me from that, as well. :-) Indeed, as I have found out in my lifetime, it is God who frees us from sin. It is God who corrects us and puts us on the right path. It is God/Jesus Christ, who shows us the truth. And I will add, when God shows us our sin, we will repent and agree with God. And indeed, we can do know other.

  • Jeff Preuss

    The fear and the shame are certainly not from the Holy Spirit. Thanks for sharing, Ronny!

  • RonnyTX

    Anne to Ronny:
    This passage of Scripture refers to those who have surrendered their allegiance to Jesus as receiving eternal life, Ronny. Jesus’ own words in Matthew 7:14 are quite sobering, don’t ya think, “But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

    Ronny to Sharon:
    Sharon, if you look down at verse 21, in Matthew chapter 7, you can see that Jesus is talking about who would enter the kingdom of heaven/God. And not everyone will be entering that 1,000 year kingdom of Jesus Christ on earth. But that age, is not the end of things. Now we are in the church age; but in Ephesians chapter one or two, Paul talks about the ages to come. So, it seems to me, that after this age, we have at least two more ages to go.

    Now in Matthew 7:14,you said about that; This passage of Scripture refers to those who have surrendered their allegiance to Jesus as receiving eternal life,…. Only one problem with that, you make it sound as if the lost person does that, on their own and they don’t. For as the scripture well tells us, it is the goodness of God which brings us to repentance. And lets also look at what John has to say about this,in John chapter one. “12 But as many as received him (Jesus Christ), to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” John 1:12,13 So we see from this, that we’re not born of the will of man; but of the will of God. And what I simply believe and say, is that what God has done for one and for some people, before all is said and done, God/Jesus Christ will do he same and that every person, from Adam on down! :-)

    “20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” 1 Corinthians 15:20,21

    And what we see from the above, is all who died in Adam and that’s all of us, will be made alive in Jesus Christ. :-)

    Below I’ve included John chapter one. Anne, please reread all of John and see just who he says, Jesus Christ is the Saviour of? Well, you will find that he says Jesus Christ is the Saviour of the whole world. And Anne, I didn’t used to realize that either. I was blinded to such. How? Because I was brought up and taught in church, that Jesus Christ was only the Saviour, of a small percent of the human race. But then, at the time of God’s choosing, God showed and taught me better! :-) And my prayer is that God will do the same for you, in this lifetime. :-)

    “1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    2 The same was in the beginning with God.

    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

    6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

    7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

    8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

    9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

    10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

    11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

    16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

    17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

    18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?

    20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

    21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

    22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?

    23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.” John 1:1,23

  • Funny enough (actually, not really funny at all), the vision of the food coming down is interpreted within Scripture, and in fact within that very same passage of the book of Acts, as being an allegory for Gentiles. But even if it’s supposed to be literal, that still leaves a whole lot of so-called “ceremonial” commands that were never explicitly repealed in the New Testament, and yet are not followed by we Gentile Christians.

  • There was one point in the history of the Church that it was translated as “masturbators,” if I recall correctly. What a change we’ve made to it since then!

  • You’re correct. That’s how Luther translated it.

  • Jeff Preuss

    No no no. IT HAS ALWAYS MEANT EXACTLY WHAT IT HAS MEANT FOR THE LAST 70 OR SO YEARS.

    We’ve ALWAYS been at war with Eastasia.

  • Ron McPherson

    Interesting that you say Ronny “chose” to be gay. I’m straight but for the life of me can never remember a single time that I “chose” to be. I was taught for years that being gay was a choice. But my own experience of being straight just knew that didn’t fit. Just curious, as a hetero female, did you choose to be straight rather than gay? In other words, was there was a point in your life that you were at a cross-roads? You were attracted to both sexes, but made a purposeful decision to become straight and live a hetero life. If not, then how on earth can you force that predicament upon another by telling them they chose the wrong path?

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Right–God chose for you, and knew you in the womb–it’s rebellion against God–he chooses your sex—and then you think you’re going to decide that you’ll take someone of the same sex because you’ve justified because of your attraction–it’s a spirit of rebellion with the God of this world feeding the lie–The guy in love with his neighbors wife just might justify himself–because, well don’t attractions/emotions trump right and wrong? I don’t think it lines with the Bible’s teaching.

  • Bones

    I agree with the Jews (ie Jesus).

    Christians have it wrong.

    “Jews believe that one is born into the world with original purity, not with original sin. We know human beings can choose to do evil, but Judaism does not dwell on that fact. Rather, we rejoice, as we believe Gd rejoices, when human beings choose to do good.

    IN SHORT… Jews do not believe in the existence of Original Sin. The concept of Original Sin states simply that because Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, they brought Death into the world. In this view, every human being dies because the origin of the human race was tainted with sin: Adam and Eve committed a sin, all humans bear guilt of that sin, and are therefore punished with death. However, the Bible describes something entirely different. Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden because if they remained, they could eat the fruit of the Tree of Life, which would make them immortal. If Adam and Eve had to eat the fruit of the Tree of Life to become immortal, then they were created mortal. They did not bring Death into the world, and we do not die because they sinned. …. one person cannot die as a punishment for the sins committed by another. We die because Death is a natural part of existence, and has been from the moment the first human beings were created. This explains why, before Adam and Eve ate the fruit from The Tree of The Knowledge of Good And Evil, Gd told the animals to be fruitful and to multiply, since they needed to replace themselves. Gd also said the same thing to Adam and Eve before they ate that fruit as well.”

    We human beings do not die because of their sin, we die because Gd made Death a part of life from the moment of Creation. There may be such a thing as The Original Mistake, but there is no such thing as Original Sin.

    http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation5.html

    We need to read the Old Testament as Jesus did.

    As a Jew.

    Christians are totally hung up on sin…..

  • seashell

    Somebody needs to tell the makers of ‘Y’ chromosomes that they’re no longer needed. That should start a whole different war and get the heat off LGBTQs.

  • Keith Wiebe

    Sam, we’re waiting!

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    You’re not gay, and neither is anyone else. Satan knows our vulnerable fears–not sure of your history–but there are many factors and one includes some destructive family dynamics–and another the scripture says were “drawn into sin because of our own lusts”. You’ve got your little 12 year old story that gives you satisfaction and causes u to believe this is how God made u, and sadly many are sucked into this lie. You have a right to hang on to this if you choose, I’m telling you the word of God speaks nothing of this, and the behavior is condemned. Satan comes as an angel of light. I believe we’re getting very close to the 2nd coming of Jesus, and people better look very close if they’re submitted to Him or rebelling against His truth!

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Are they taught against in NT? If they are, don’t involve yourself, and repent and turn away–food, days animal sacrifices, etc. sexual sins are taught against clearly in NT. read it

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    What makes u think I don’t show mercy? My my are u judging me? It doesn’t mean u don’t show mercy–quite the contrary–if u see someone promoting ideas and behavior s that are destructive. That’s mercy and love–

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    Oh, I see. So now you’re saying we can ignore anything so long as it isn’t taught against in the NT? Well, then, why are you bringing up the OT at all, if it’s irrelevant? Unless of course what you are really doing is dodging my post in the hopes that I’ll forget that I asked you for proof of your claim that sins were separated into different categories, some of which were done away with by Jesus and some of which were not, and how we knew which was which etc etc.

  • Bones

    More nonsense.

    The only Satan influencing anyone is the one in your mind.

    And even the 2nd coming scare tactic.

    You must be getting desperate.

    But you have to try these things when you become irrelevant.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    There are 27000 copies of the NT–and it’s been ascertained that the translations we have, match up with those copies. Any variations are insignificant (small copying errors that have no impact on the text message). Even the Dead Sea scrolls confirmed the accuracy of or bible–Translations have minute differences

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    I have nothing more to say to you Bones–One can see the true character of someone when something they disagree is brought up, or the view is threatening to their world view. I can see why you’re on this site and follow these heretical points of view. It makes u feel good. You have a dull mind and u need sharpening–and have little of significance to say.

  • That’s nice. Didn’t answer any of my questions.

  • Bones

    Lol. Just like Christians were being merciful when burning people alive.

    Spare us your shallow platitudes. You don’t care about anyone here.

    How about you go to some sites and moan about Christians being greedy or not caring for immigrants.

    Nah, this one is where you’re interested….you don’t care about that other stuff…

    You just care about stopping the gay….

    The only one being destructive here is you.

    And we’re pointing that out. Heck even the site you posted would have nothing to do with the way you approach others.

    Your bigotry against gay people is from an ignorant approach to scripture which you support because it backs up your hatred of gay people.

    It’s all circular.

    And yes Mercy triumphs over judgement.

    “For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.”

  • Jeff Preuss

    Also, “translations have minute differences” isn’t quite correct, either.

  • Ron McPherson

    “…it’s rebellion against God–he chooses your sex–and then you think you’re going to decide that you’ll take someone of the same sex because you’ve justified because of your attraction.”

    Huh?

  • Some of the 100+ English translations are relatively minor differences. Some. Not even close to all.

  • Jeff Preuss

    I’m afraid you may get some of the argument I’ve heard against people being homosexual which rests upon “He made them male and female.”

    Which, of course, doesn’t actually address anything about being homosexual. Because, clearly, He made me male. That’s not in question at all because I’m gay…

  • Ron McPherson

    Let me get this straight. So you’ve never met Ronny but know he’s been duped into believing he’s gay but he’s really not. And you know that his testimony about his relationship with God is a lie. Uh, ok.

  • Jeff Preuss

    I believe I already told you this, but I AM gay, and no amount of you denying it makes it untrue. Also, none of your stereotyped “destructive family dynamics” or “lusts” come into play in the formation of my sexuality, either.

    Otherwise, on a side note, how dare you condescendingly sneer at Ronny’s honest share with you like that? “You’ve got your little 12 year old story that gives you satisfaction…” You have not lived HIS life, so YOU don’t know he’s made a choice. I frankly don’t care what you say to me, but I will refuse to sit by and watch you belittle someone who is sincerely sharing the truth of his experience with you in the hopes that you might understand gay people, or at least him, a little more.

    You wave off Scripture you don’t agree with as “fairytale,” you tell Eris she should find another religion because you don’t want to share Christianity with someone who doesn’t think homosexuality is a mortal sin, and you snottily denigrate the REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE of someone else because it doesn’t line up with the myopic bigotry you want to mold Christ into.

    You are an unbelievable piece of work. I wonder how many other people you have turned away from Jesus.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Especially when one looks at some of the clobber verses. Sodomite (itself a really loose application for homosexual) is translated as a few different things, depending on which version. ‘Cult prostitute’ is a very different thing from ‘homosexual.’

  • Indeed; it’s the exact controversial Scriptures that we often find ourselves debating that tend to be the points of difference across translations. And yet those are the exact Scriptures that are often pointed to as being “totally clear.”

  • Jeff Preuss

    Hmmm, maybe I AM a cult prostitute. You know, since it’s clear.

  • How much?

    Lord, forgive me for that one…

  • Jeff Preuss

    HA!

  • Bones

    And you are here because you are threatened by gay people just being gay.

    Your true character is revealed here.

    You have shown yourself to be a self-righteous, condemning, nasty, judgemental cow who no one here would have a bar of let alone listen to any messages from.

    You are exceedingly ignorant and stupid and obviously can’t think for yourself.

    If you look in the mirror, you’ll see who Jesus really condemns.

    Repent!

  • Bones

    Come off it.

    Don’t you go to strangers’ houses and threaten to rape their guests?

    Happens to me every Saturday night…..

  • seashell

    Sounds like somebody put too much nog in their egg. :-)

  • seashell

    +10. Bravo. That needed saying.

  • Jeff Preuss

    I just can’t brook the cruelty from her any more, and she thinks it love. It is not love. Ronny has this incredibly sweet, sincere expression to his faith, and she craps all over it. NO MORE.

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    It really doesn’t matter what your experience is not the kind of person you think I am–what matters is truth and Gods word says it’s an abomination for man to lay with man and women with women–it goes against nature–God says it and it’s logical and clear. Men and women are made to fit together. Sorry if u think God didn’t know what he was doing. I have no hatred or bigotry–it’s you men on this site who are trying to justify your lusts with the word love. Do what you want , but not under the guise of Christianity. It is end times and the word prophetically says this will happen–men doing what’s right in their own eyes. Call it judgmental–I say it’s truth in love–because there’s always the renewing of the mind..and oh yes…I need prayer every day too

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Right

  • Sharon Pettit Curtis

    Apparently you’re not familiar with the forbidden in the levitical law–and sandwiched between beastiality and child sacrifice is homosexuality.

  • Bones

    Unfortunately you aren’t the arbiter of who is or isn’t Christian and what Christians can and can’t do.

    I don’t lust after men but they do seem more attractive after reading your posts.

    Maybe you can learn something of humility, gentleness and love from people like Jeff and Ronny cos you sure as hell aren’t getting it from anywhere else.

  • Bones

    My dear Ronny.

    Please forgive the insolent brat and don’t take what she said to heart.

    You are a gentle and kind soul far better than me whom the Lord dearly loves.

  • It really needs to be emphasized how the ‘homosexuality is pedophilia and vise versa’ is extremely damaging to a wide variety of people, from LGBT parents to kids raised by those parents to victims of child sexual abuse to law enforcement personnel trying to make things right and so on. Seriously.

  • “Unless you teach your moods “where they get off,” you can never be either a sound Christian or even a sound atheist, but just a creature dithering to and fro, with its beliefs really dependent on the weather and the state of its digestion.””

    – C.S. Lewis

  • I’m also going to second that with:

    “About Christianity: I am not asking anyone to accept Christianity if his best reasoning tells him that the weight of the evidence is against it. That is not the point at which faith comes in.”

    — Note that both quotes are from ‘Mere Christianity’, of all books, which should make you think”

  • It’s telling that you can’t understand the difference between “This is factually wrong” as an objection and “I’m offended” as an objection.

    To use an example to which I think you’d be primed to politically agree with me, people being morally offended by an image of the Prophet Mohammed being draw in acrylic paint form (nothing needling him, just the Prophet standing there next to a tree) are not in any way, shape, or form making a good argument for censorship when they go “But I’m offended.

    But when a food company is putting out peanut butter labeled ‘healthy’ and ‘inspected’ when the products are not in fact inspected and are not in fact healthy at all… and people get sick from salmonella poisoning… you’d be angry. You should be angry. You’d say that this is a matter of someone knowing that a statement is false but saying it anyway, just to help themselves. You’d not just be ‘offended’. It would be a matter of ‘principle’– there’s a kind of fraud going on, and it’s contrary to the basic spirit of open free speech.

  • We’ve always had a paper shortage. And a blanket shortage. And an apartment shortage. This is war-time, after all.

    What about Bob’s apartment? It being open? Erm… who is this ‘Bob’ you speak of? Surely, you mean the wonderfully party-loyal ‘Rob’, right?

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    1) Oh, so you are one of those Christians who believe that Abraham was wrong to be willing to sacrifice Isaac? That the whole thing was a test set up by God, and that Abraham was meant to pass by refusing to obey God and refuse to sacrifice his son? Interesting!

    2) I take it that you aren’t going to provide any proof of your claim that there are different categories of sins (ceremonial/dietary and moral), only some of which were set aside by Jesus, and that wearing mixed fibers (and the like) was ceremonial and that homosexuality (and the like) was moral? Because I continue to await that.

  • Jeff Preuss

    There is a litany of terms that can be used to describe you, but I think we are all understanding Christian is not one of them. It must truly chap your hide that people like Ronny and I have a more legitimate claim to the term than you.

    You are more concerned with being right than righteous, and in the end, you are neither. Go away. Peddle your hate masked as “Jesus” elsewhere.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Obviously you haven’t read Romans 14.

  • You might want to read Stand to Reasons material. They even address the “in hospitality” fairytale.

    If they call a direct reference to Scripture a fairytale, then I don’t know why any professing Christian would recommend them.

  • Call it judgmental–I say it’s truth in love

    You could call it a potato, wouldn’t mean it was one. Words have meanings.

  • seashell

    It is end times…

    In that case we won’t hold up your packing. You’ve got lots of self-righteousness, judgement, bigotry and hatred to pack. And don’t forget that fountain of misinformation you like to spout from. It takes up a lot of room but apparently you can’t live without it. Fluff your feathered head and be on your way with no more ado.

  • seashell

    Good for you and from the friendly avatars I see around, you’re not alone.

  • F Franks

    The new “Christianity finally being born in America” is very much pro-LGBTQ, as is the Democrat party, of which the current President is a member. Evangelicals are not. Wants very much to curtain gun availability, as does the Democrat party currently in authority. Evangelicals do not. Evangelicalism is being marginalized increasingly in America — at least Corey and others seem to hope that it is — and the early Church was marginal. So I don’t see how an increasingly liberal Christianity is anything like the underdog that the early Church was.

  • RonnyTX

    Ron to Sharon:
    Interesting that you say Ronny “chose” to be gay. I’m straight but for the life of me can never remember a single time that I “chose” to be. I was taught for years that being gay was a choice. But my own experience of being straight just knew that didn’t fit. Just curious, as a hetero female, did you choose to be straight rather than gay? In other words, was there was a point in your life that you were at a cross-roads? You were attracted to both sexes, but made a purposeful decision to become straight and live a hetero life. If not, then how on earth can you force that predicament upon another by telling them they chose the wrong path?

    Ronny to Ron:
    Thank you Ron. :-) And you’re right, none of us choose whether we are going to be heterosexual, gay or bisexual. Instead, God chooses for each of us, which we will be. And I didn’t know that, until God showed me such. Until God let me know, that my being gay was not a sin/sinful. And that my being gay, was God’s good gift to me. :-) But I was 40 years old, before I even thought to study some scriptures for myself, asking God to guide me and show me the truth about such. Before that, I was in bondage to the lies about myself, that I had been taught by some church elder or elders, when I was 12 years old. Found it amazing later, in a way, that they could not see their own sin of child abuse. But that is exactly what is practiced in so many denominational churches, when it comes to children in the church, who happen to be gay or bisexual and not heterosexual. And the way I see it, in many churches child abuse is also practiced against those children who happen to be heterosexual. That comes through church leaders who tell them how sinful their emotional/sexuals thoughts and or actions are, while not telling the kids at the same time, that they did the same things or surely did their best to, when they were their age.

    Thinking of my late pastor here and I loved him and I still do. But he was wrong on so much. Such as the time he said he didn’t know what kids were coming to now days?! Speaking of single teens and young adults, sometimes having sexual relations. Well, when he said that, his wife just popped and said, they’re not doing anything more than what you tried to talk me into, before we got married. And the only reason we didn’t, is because I wouldn’t let you! :-) LoL Now that was funny; :-) but what is not funny, is any preacher teaching a kid to condemn themself, while never admitting they did the same and or did their best to. (ha)

  • RonnyTX

    Sharon to Ron:
    Right–God chose for you, and knew you in the womb–it’s rebellion against God–he chooses your sex—and then you think you’re going to decide that you’ll take someone of the same sex because you’ve justified because of your attraction–it’s a spirit of rebellion with the God of this world feeding the lie–The guy in love with his neighbors wife just might justify himself–because, well don’t attractions/emotions trump right and wrong? I don’t think it lines with the Bible’s teaching.

    Ronny to Sharon:
    True, God chooses whether we will be male, female and or some combination of the two. As for myself, I’m male. That doesn’t make me any better than someone who isn’t that; but, I am glad God chose for me to be male. :-) And in like manner, God chooses whether we will be gay, bisexual or heterosexual. And now that God has shown me the truth about the matter, I am way happy that God chose for me to be gay. :-) And you mentioned a guy, in love with his neighbors wife. Well, it just so happens I have a married male neighbor and he is nice looking and a very nice, friendly guy. Does this mean, I would chase after him? Of course not. Why not? Because he’s a married man and I respect the marriage of him and his wife- I respect both him and his wife and their relationship.

  • RonnyTX

    Amen Jeff! And I am so glad too, that God chose for me to be male and gay! :-) But you understand, with the way I grew up being taught to believe so wrong about that part of myself, well, I wouldn’t wish such as that, on my worst enemy.

  • Ron McPherson

    Love you brother!

  • Ron McPherson

    Romans 14:4, “Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.”

    Peace

  • RonnyTX

    Bones to Ronny:
    My dear Ronny.

    Please forgive the insolent brat and don’t take what she said to heart.

    You are a gentle and kind soul far better than me whom the Lord dearly loves.

    Ronny to Bones:
    Thank you Bones. :-) But I do want to add, that I am what I am, by the love, mercy and grace of God/Jesus Christ. :-) And we, as in you, me, Sharon or whoever- we are all in God’s hands and we are all God’s workmanship. And there is no better place, where any of us could be. :-) And as I put it, before all is wrapped up, all will be born of God, we all will be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. For that is just how much God/Jesus Christ, loves us all! And God is going to do that, for all of His creation! :-)

    Thinking here, of something that happened in my life, nearly 20 years ago. I found out that this man I knew, he had molested at least some of his daughters and one of my nieces as well. :-( And he was her grandfather! My I hated that man, wanted him dead and the sooner the better, out of my nieces life! I so hated what he had done to hurt my niece and his daughters. But the trouble was, I came to hate the man; but then, God taught me better. One day I was simply at work, mowing grass in a nearby cemetery. I had been thinking about that man and hating him, wanting him dead. Then God simply put in my mind the thought, Jesus Christ needed to go to the cross for you, as well. God reminded me, that I was not perfect, without sin either. God reminded me, that he loved that man I hated, just as much as he loved me. I am so glad God showed me that, made me think on such! Yes, Jesus Christ was on the cross for us all, taking all of our sins upon himself and that is just exactly how much God/ Jesus Christ loves us all! :-) And some people have a problem with that old saying, love the sinner, hate the sin; but I have no problem with it. For God has shown me I am to love every last person; but that doesn’t mean I am to love the sin, in my life or in the life of anyone else. For sin, that which is not loving, is hurtful to us all.

  • RonnyTX

    Sharon to Ronny:
    You’re not gay, and neither is anyone else.

    Ronny to Sharon:
    Oh please Sharon, I’m as gay as a goose! :-) And I’ve known that, since I was 12 years old! LoL

    Sharon to Ronny:
    Satan knows our vulnerable fears–not sure of your history–but there are many factors and one includes some destructive family dynamics–

    Ronny to Sharon:
    Sharon, I grew up in a family, where I knew I was greatly loved and that by my Mom, Dad and older brothers and sisters. :-) That was expressed to me both in words and deeds. And indeed, I was 13 or 14teen years old, before I even found out that some kids didn’t have it as great as I did. And that some were even abused by a parent or parents. :-( And guess what Sharon, in my early growing up years, I knew I was safe, when I was with either or both of my parents and or my older brothers and sisters. :-) I had a complete childlike faith, that I was completely safe, just as long as I was with any of them. :-) Just smiling here at the great and loving childhood, that I did have! :-) And like I said, I know it’s not that way for every child; but I wish it was.

    Sharon to Ronny:
    and another the scripture says were “drawn into sin because of our own lusts”.

    Ronny to Sharon:
    Well yes Sharon, when I got to puberty and 12 years old, I definately had some lust/sexual desire, for at least two guys. Of course, at that age I didn’t even know what two guys, two gals or a guy and a gal could do together? I mean, the most I knew of were boy/girl couples I saw at school, those who sometimes went about hand in hand, arm around the other or sometimes kissing. :-) And I knew, that I simply desired to have a boyfriend and wished to be in a relationship with him, just as these boy/girl couples, that I saw about me. Now you can call that sin if you want; but then I don’t and neither does God. The only ones who would call such sin, is some preachers and such like, who have simply been taught wrong, by some other people. For they sure don’t get their beliefs on this, from God. What I’m saying Sharon, is that it’s not sin to love someone and desire to be in a mutually loving,
    romantic type relationship with them. Now if all a person wishes to do with another,is use and abuse them, in a sexual way, then that’s a whole nother matter and is sin.

    Sharon to Ronny:
    You’ve got your little 12 year old story that gives you satisfaction and causes u to believe this is how God made u, and sadly many are sucked into this lie.

    Ronny to Sharon:
    Sharon, I know I was 12 years old, when I discovered I was attracted to some males and not attracted to females. And I’m just curious, how old were you, when you discovered you were heterosexual and attracted to some males?

    Sharon to Ronny:
    You have a right to hang on to this if you choose, I’m telling you the word of God speaks nothing of this, and the behavior is condemned. Satan comes as an angel of light. I believe we’re getting very close to the 2nd coming of Jesus, and people better look very close if they’re submitted to Him or rebelling against His truth!

    Ronny to Sharon:
    Sharon, what you’ve learned on this matter, about people who are gay or bisexual, you got those wrong beliefs from some people and not from God. And I don’t expect you to believe me about that; but what I would ask you to do, is just ask God to directly show you the truth, on this matter. Well, that’s how I came to find the truth. I asked God to guide me and show me the truth and that as I reread and thought on the scriptures, that I had been taught, condemned my being gay. And as I read them over and thought on them, I could see they didn’t. I could see they weren’t talking about people like me, at all. Except for one scripture in the Old Testament and I couldn’t understand but how it condemned my being gay. But I thought, how could it, when I could not see that the others didn’t? And I had been at this reading and thinking on, for several weeks then and here I was stuck on that last verse. So I just gave up and when I did, I thought of suicide. I was simply sitting at my kitchen table as I read and studied on all of this and when I got stuck on that one verse, I simply thought of the rifle over in the corner of the room and I had a thought of suicide. But God had other thoughts. :-) For as soon as I gave up ever completely understanding on this matter and finding out the truth and that directly from God, about whether my being gay was sinful or not, as soon as I despaired and gave up, God put this scripture in my mind. :-) “And we know that all things work together for good,to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.” Romans 8:28 :-) In other words, God reminded me of just how greatly God did love me. :-) And when God did that for me, I just stopped and said a prayer. I simply stopped and asked God, if how I had felt about some guys,in my lifetime, was a sin? And immediately,God answered my prayer and that with a no! :-) My that shocked me. For I surely believed God would answer my prayer; but not in that way and not that soon! :-) LoL So to be sure I had heard right, I simply prayed that prayer again and again, God simply answered with a no. So Sharon, if was some of my fellow human beings, who taught me at 12 years old, to believe the lie that my being gay was self chosen, sin and the worst of sins; but at 40 years old, it was God who told me directly, that no, my being gay was not sinful. :-) And you see Sharon, that’s who I want you to get your answer from, on this matter. I want you to get it directly from God and not from some people.

    Sharon to Ronny:
    Satan comes as an angel of light.

    Ronny to Sharon:
    I agree and many times the angel of light he comes in, is the teacher or preacher up in our pulpits. For all there are not all speaking right and even when some do, that doesn’t mean they have everything right.

    Sharon to Ronny:
    I believe we’re getting very close to the 2nd coming of Jesus, and people better look very close if they’re submitted to Him or rebelling against His truth!

    Ronny to Sharon:
    Sharon, the ones submitting to God/Jesus Christ are the ones who have been born of God. And even those who God has done that for already, we are certainly not perfect and know it all. And when we are in rebellion against God, well, God knows how to take care of that too. :-) For it is God, who lets a person know they are lost, not in a right relationship with God. It is God, who does that for us, it is God, the goodness of God who brings us to repentance and it is God, who takes us on to faith in Jesus Christ. :-) All glory to God, for it is God/Jesus Christ who does all of these loving and good things for us. :-) And by us, I do mean everyone from Adam on down! :-)

    And I’m not sure when it will come about; but yes, Jesus Christ is coming again. :-) And we will have the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ on earth. :-) As best I see it, that is the next age coming, after the one we’re presently in. And I surely do look forward to that! :-) But that will not be the end. No, it will simply be the next age to come, as best I see it.

  • RonnyTX

    Jeff to Sharon:
    I believe I already told you this, but I AM gay, and no amount of you denying it makes it untrue. Also, none of your stereotyped “destructive family dynamics” or “lusts” come into play in the formation of my sexuality, either.

    Ronny to Sharon:
    Jeff, I’m surprised she hasn’t trotted out that old one, about your Mama made you gay! :-) LoL

    Jeff to Sharon:
    Otherwise, on a side note, how dare you condescendingly sneer at Ronny’s honest share with you like that? “You’ve got your little 12 year old story that gives you satisfaction…” You have not lived HIS life, so YOU don’t know he’s made a choice. I frankly don’t care what you say to me, but I willrefuse to sit by and watch you belittle someone who is sincerely sharing the truth of his experience with you in the hopes that you might understand gay people, or at least him, a little more.

    Ronny to Jeff:
    Thank you Jeff. :-)

    Jeff to Sharon:
    You wave off Scripture you don’t agree with as “fairytale,” you tell Eris she should find another religion because you don’t want to share Christianity with someone who doesn’t think homosexuality is a mortal sin, and you snottily denigrate the REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE of someone else because it doesn’t line up with the myopic bigotry you want to mold Christ into.

    You are an unbelievable piece of work. I wonder how many other people you have turned away from Jesus.

    Ronny to Jeff:
    Jeff, just try to keep in mind, that God/Jesus Christ is not yet finished with Sharon or with any of us. :-) I know you get mad sometimes and I sure know why, as I do the same myself. But try to keep in mind, that when eternity gets here, we will all be with God/Jesus Christ, we will all be together. And at that time, we will all be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ! :-) Ah, what a day that will be, when our Saviour we shall see. When we look upon his face, the one who saved us by his grace. What a day, glorious day that will be and that, for every last one of us! :-)

  • RonnyTX

    Sharon to Jeff:
    It really doesn’t matter what your experience is not the kind of person you think I am–what matters is truth and Gods word says it’s an abomination for man to lay with man and women with women–it goes against nature–God says it and it’s logical and clear. Men and women are made to fit together. Sorry if u think God didn’t know what he was doing. I have no hatred or bigotry–it’s you men on this site who are trying to justify your lusts with the word love. Do what you want , but not under the guise of Christianity. It is end times and the word prophetically says this will happen–men doing what’s right in their own eyes. Call it judgmental–I say it’s truth in love–because there’s always the renewing of the mind..and oh yes…I need prayer every day too

    Ronny to Sharon:
    Sharon, please show me in the bible, where you say it says it’s an abomination for man to lay with man and woman to lay with woman? Let’s see and discuss the scriptures, that you believe say this.

  • RonnyTX

    Bones to Sharon:
    Unfortunately you aren’t the arbiter of who is or isn’t Christian and what Christians can and can’t do.

    I don’t lust after men but they do seem more attractive after reading your posts.

    Maybe you can learn something of humility, gentleness and love from people like Jeff and Ronny cos you sure as hell aren’t getting it from anywhere else.

    Ronny to Bones:
    Bones, just thinking here, of where I first got taught the opposite of humility,gentleness and love. That was in the church I grew up in. And no, everyone there wasn’t like that; but it came much from church leadership. And that’s a hard thing to have to say, when some of those were my kinfolk. Hard to say; but true. For it was in church, that I was taught to believe, that we were the one and only true church. Us and those who believed and taught, just as we did. Some others, might be Christian;but the way I was taught, they were all in man made religions and not the church of Jesus Christ. And though I hadn’t, I believed I had been saved/become a Christian, at 12 years old. And from their to 16teen years old, I was taking in at church, that we were the one true church and how much better that made us, than other folks. So, in places like school, I looked down on kids I knew, that were in other denominations. I thought I was better than them, because I was a member of the one true church. But when God saved me, at 16teen years old, my sin that God pointed out to me and caused me to repent of, was my sin of selfrighteousness! (ha) My, God knew just what I needed! :-) The next year, I was back at this Bible camp, where God had saved me the year before. And in that years time, I had gone back to my home church and slipped back some, into thinking I was better than a lot of people, because of the church I was in. So, what did God do about that, in me? Well, in Bible camp that next year, for a solid week, the young peoples teacher, all he taught on was the sin of selfrighteousness! :-( LoL Now by the 2nd day, I was thinking he would surely teach on something else! :-) But no, he taught on that one subject and that 5 days running! :-( LoL And like the year before, on the last day of camp, God had me repenting! :-) What surprised and trouble me, was when I went up at that last day church service. I wanted to tell people what I was coming up for, what God had shown and done for me and what I was repenting of; but when I told the preacher why I had come up, he simply set me over to the side and ignored me. So, I didn’t get to say anything that day. Years later, I just wondered if that preacher did that, because he had the sin of selfrighteousness in himself and didn’t want to hear anyone talk about, that particular sin?

  • RonnyTX

    Jeff to Seashell:
    I just can’t brook the cruelty from her any more, and she thinks it love. It is not love. Ronny has this incredibly sweet, sincere expression to his faith, and she craps all over it. NO MORE.

    Ronny to Jeff:
    Thank you Jeff. :-) And I can’t really doubt either, that Sharon thinks she is expressing herself from a standpoint of love. Well, her standpoint comes from a lot of places, as I see it; but I better not go into that right now. :-) But what I do want to say, is I know how easy it is, to let someone make me mad at them. I know in the past, when some people have done that and sooner or later, I found myself acting somewhat like them and that, I didn’t like at all! :-( My I hated to see such as that in myself! What I’m saying, is we need to be very careful, in how we respond to the other person. Some people will always do things that make us mad and angry; but what I’m trying to say and not so well, :-) is let’s not let someone like that, affect us to such a degree, that we start acting like them and spewing out hate. What then? Well, nothing wrong in telling someone their wrong. Nothing wrong with that, at all; but we should always strive to do such with love. Love of the other person, even the one or ones, who are really making us mad! :-) LoL And no, that doesn’t mean we can’t speak plainly. I’m still working on this part. :-) But I do believe in speaking very plainly,to a person like Sharon; but I have to keep in mind, that I am to do such with love, love for her and understanding too, how she came to believe so wrong about somethings. For I used to believe so many of the same wrong things-wrong things I got from some people and not from God.

  • RonnyTX

    Ron to Sharon:
    Let me get this straight. So you’ve never met Ronny but know he’s been duped into believing he’s gay but he’s really not. And you know that his testimony about his relationship with God is a lie. Uh, ok.

    Sharon to Ron:
    Right

    Ronny to Ron:
    Ummm Ron, it seems according to Sharon, that I’m not gay or a born again child of God! (ha) LoL I know somethings I would like to ask Sharon and maybe I will? Have to think about that. But then, according to Sharon, I’m no gay. So that would mean, I went from 12 years old to 40 years old, needlessly worried to death, that someone might discover I was gay and then go and out me to others. And in my 30’s, I found out online later, that what I developed back then, was called PTSD. Post traumatic stress disorder. And such things I would not wish, on even my worst enemy! But God brought good, out of all the pain I went though and God is continuing to bring good out of that. :-) And for that, I surely say thank you and bless you God/Jesus Christ! :-)

  • RonnyTX

    Sharon to Ron:
    Right.

    Ronny to Sharon:
    So Sharon,what you’re saying to Ron, is that I’m not a Christian/I haven’t been born of God and I’m not gay?

  • RonnyTX

    Ron to Sharon:
    Romans 14:4, “Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.”

    Peace

    Ronny to Ron:
    Amen Ron, amen! :-) And without God/Jesus Christ, I would still be dead in my trespasses and sins against God; but God chose when I would be born of God, God chose that I would stand and it is God/Jesus Christ, who keeps me standing! :-)

  • RonnyTX

    Jeff to Ronny:
    The fear and the shame are certainly not from the Holy Spirit. Thanks for sharing, Ronny!

    Ronny to Jeff:
    More than happy to Jeff. :-) And amen too, to what who say here. :-) For as you truly say, the fear and shame we are taught to have because we’re gay, that as you well say, is most certainly from God to us! No, we get those lies taught to us, by some people. People who are ignorant and simply don’t know any better. But the part that has always bothered me the most, is where some people like that, where they act if they were so much better than people who are gay, bisexual, etc. And the saddest part to me, so many times these same people, they are religious Christian leaders! :-( The trouble is, so many times they’re a lot more religious, than they are Christ like!

  • niauropsaka

    This is very optimistic.

  • RonnyTX

    Kirk to Ronny:
    And single!

    Ronny to Kirk:
    I noticed that too! :-( Blamed, too bad I’m too old for him, :-( cause like I said, he sure is cute! :-) LoL

  • Ron McPherson

    Thank you for your honesty, transparency, and insight. Your comments should be required reading for every professing Christian to seriously self-evaluate whether or not we are truly following the one we claim to worship and adhering to the greatest commandment.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Well, it definitely is a wall of text, but it is not without merit. :)

  • Since you are the first one in this conversation to introduce the concepts of adultery and pedophilia, I would challenge your general understanding of this article; you seem to have a fascination with sinful practices that is not very healthy. Beyond that, I would encourage you to better explore the meaning of the gospel. It is not repentance that brings hope and redemtion, but God’s grace and faith. Eph 2:8-9, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

  • Bones

    Dude you are a far better man and Christian than me….

  • “It is a Christianity rooted in following Jesus himself– one where the adherents actually want to follow what Jesus said, and do what Jesus did.”

    Are we truly doing ALL that Jesus did and said or just the parts that make us more “comfortable” with being called a Christian.
    Jesus was a lamb.
    But He was also a lion.

  • Snooterpoot

    It never ends because the people who use the term are repeating what they’ve been told. There will always be people who listen but don’t think. Those same people refuse to listen to anyone who doesn’t fit in their comfort zone (us) when they are told that the term “lifestyle” is offensive and insulting.

    All we can do is tell people who use the term how it came about (Jerry Falwell) and how we feel about it.

  • Nixon is Lord

    Your version of this fantasy is as ridiculous as theirs-and as class based and self-segregated and self-congratulatory.
    And you’re still taking tax breaks and housing allowances, even as you denounce the government at “Caesar”: pathetic.

  • Andrew

    “We’re tired of xenophobia in the name of Jesus, the marginalization of the poor, the apathy towards immigrants, and we’re really tired of this sadistic fetish civil Christianity has with guns.”
    Opposing people who are in this country illegally is not xenophobia or apathy towards immigrants, not wanting to have your hard earned money taken from you by the government to pay the welfare checks of people who do nothing but sit around all day is not marginalization of the poor, and for crying out loud owning a gun for self defense does not make you a sadist who has a fetish for guns and violence.
    Well folks that’s my two cents on the matter, feel free to tell me how bad a Christian I am for not believing in this new “version” that is being advocated here.

  • FWIW, you already believe in the new version of being Christian. This new version came about under Constantine in the 4th century AD. The version expressed above is the only version of Christianity that existed for the first 300 years of the faith. In fact, to the original Christians the idea of owning a gun would disqualify someone from being a member of the Church.

  • Andrew

    That seems kind of odd excluding people for owning weapons (again owning a weapon does not mean evil intent) especially given that many Christians of the time were Roman soldiers. I thought excluding period was supposed to be unChristian

  • Roman soldiers didn’t make up “many”. By the end of the 2nd century there were some who became Christians but they had to either leave the military or take a vow to disobey all orders to use the sword– some were put to death for their refusal. However, were they to not leave the military or refuse to follow orders, they were excluded from the early church. There’s not a single document prior to the 320’s that justifies the Christian harming their enemies.

  • Andrew

    I thought they were put to death for not taking part in the cult of Mithras. And your saying that under this version of Christianity your advocating for you would turn away someone for owning a weapon. Doesn’t sound like something Jesus would do. I thought one of your biggest gripes with American Christianity was exclusiveness

  • Noah

    Though, biblically speaking we don’t see any push for soldiers to renounce their weapons or career….?

  • Andrew

    You never responded, so let me ask again. Under the sort of Christianity you are advocating for and enthusiastic about, you would turn away someone who loves Jesus, but who owns a gun, or who has a career in the military? Is that what your saying?

  • BobbyInNYC

    Evidently Jesus was martyred so that rich, white Americans can deny healthcare to the poor, hoard guns, and tell immigrants from other nations & religions to just go die elsewhere.

  • Vicki Glenn

    “You see, there are plenty of us out here who have realized this civil, nationalistic religion doesn’t look anything like Jesus– and we’re tired of pretending.” It doesn’t look anything like Jesus because He was 100% Jewish…and followed the Torah perfectly.

  • Vicki Glenn

    Luke 22:36King James Version (KJV)

    36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

  • Dennis Wade

    Thank you! This is such a helpful presentation and a very good description of how we should be as followers of Jesus and NOT the church!
    I always find it interesting when somebody brings up returning America to it’s original “Christian” values of the founding fathers. It shows that they haven’t done their homework!
    There really isn’t that much about the founding fathers that could be called “Christian”. One main one was the understanding that religious ideas and values and worldly governments must be kept seperate. And that is exactly what Jesus taught too!
    He refused to use worldly politics to establish His kingdom on earth and told us to be the same way.
    It is an assumption the connect the idea that separation of religion and state automatically means that the founding fathers were christians. actually, quite a few of them were not! And it is this assumption that is still causing both Christians and non-Christians so many problems.
    There is no nation on this earth that can be called “Christian”, because the Kingdom of God is NOT of this world!