World Vision Child Sponsorships Abandoned: It’s Almost Double What We Thought

World Vision Child Sponsorships Abandoned: It’s Almost Double What We Thought March 27, 2015

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This week marked the 1 year anniversary of an event I’ve been calling the World Vision Fiasco. I have been lamenting the events which took place last spring, and the damaging fallout that has flowed as a result. As a quick recap for those who didn’t follow the events last year: World Vision is a Christian relief organization which does incredible work around the globe in alleviating poverty, helping people after natural disasters, etc. Behind the scenes, World Vision realized that they represent the diversity which exists in the Christian church, and as a result, they decided that they would change their hiring policies here in the US to include the hiring of gay Christians who were married. Instead of making this change quietly over time, Christianity Today got ahold of the story and pushed it to the front pages almost overnight… and we all know what happened next….

The internet exploded.

The establishment was outraged that gay people might work at a Christian organization, and they marched in lock-step with one another to make children around the world pay for it. Average folks, following the example of leaders such as John Piper and other personalities who denounced World Vision (as well as the band Casting Crowns who discontinued their partnership), took to the internet to plaster WV’s Facebook with nasty messages, and to announce they were canceling sponsorship of their children.

And they weren’t kidding. The number we’ve known publicly was that 10,000 children were dumped by Christian families in those few days- a number so big that it brought World Vision into submission to the right, causing them to reverse their policy decision just a few days later (here’s their official statement on that). Yet, even with the reversal, in many ways the damage was done. 10,000 child sponsorships is a lot to lose. As one WV source told me, one of the key things that saved them during this time were the progressive bloggers recruiting new sponsors- had we not done that, who knows how bad it would have been.

For the past year we’ve been throwing around the number of 10,000 children who lost sponsors, but a year later we now know the full reality. World Vision has made public some actual numbers– and when I break the numbers down, they’re a little hard for me to wrap my head around. Here’s the official statement provided by World Vision US:

“World Vision USA has a clearer picture of the financial impact, which has resulted in roughly 15,000 canceled sponsorships with possibly up to 4,000 additional cancelations that might be attributable to last year’s events.”

That’s 15,000 for sure, and 4,000 sponsorships likely lost, for a total number of upwards of 19,000 kids who had their sponsorships pulled. But let’s break that down even further: a source confirmed with me that the average sponsor stays with their child for 10 years. So when we really want to dissect the impact of the gay marriage fiasco, the ultimate number over time would look like this: 19,000 sponsorships lost at $35 per month, over 10 years each, equals $6,650,000.00 in total losses. Even if we write off the 4,000 children where there’s question as to why they were dropped, that still leaves us at a verifiable, known loss of $5,250,000.00 that is a direct response to the decision to employ gay Christians. It’s simply unfathomable.

Recently I had the opportunity to visit a a widow and her son in Armenia who are supported by World Vision, and wrote about the experience in a post called “Dear Rick and Becky, I Hope You11044637_10153018341292211_5925158305573509326_o Get To Read This.” We sat in their tiny makeshift home and listened to their story of heartache, loss, and poverty- a story of such sorrow that the mother couldn’t tell it without choking up, and we couldn’t listen without doing the same. However, their story did have one beautiful part: their sponsors, Rick and Becky, from World Vision. They told me about how much their letters are a source of encouragement in a discouraging life, and how they feel like Rick and Becky are part of their family. After hearing their story, I was given the honor of leading the World Vision team in prayer. As I prayed I thought about the 15,000-19,000 kids who relied on these letters as a source of encouragement, but who just stopped getting them abruptly because their sponsors had a problem with World Vision employing a gay person. I wondered how this boy and his mom would have felt had Rick and Becky just abruptly exited their lives (which they didn’t), or how all the children who did experience that loss must have felt.

I don’t know how to express the emotions I felt when I realized the crushing loss that being abandoned by a sponsor must have been, other than it was combination of feeling broken hearted and royally pissed all at the same time.

Here’s reality: there have been between 15,000 – 19,000 children like the one you see here– children who viewed their sponsors as part of the family and a lifeline– who abruptly stopped receiving letters. The relationships were broken and dismissed. No more encouraging notes. No more special gifts on birthdays or holidays. No more funds for emergency clothing or food rations. It just stopped.

For up to 19,000 children. Let that sink in.

Having seen first hand how much these relationships are cherished, I am unable to fathom the relational devastation that was caused by Christians who wanted to stand against gay marriage more than they wanted to help the children they sponsored. And beyond the relational damage, there’s somewhere around 6 million dollars of funding for children living in dire poverty that has now vanished, all because thousands of my fellow Christians couldn’t stomach the idea that the person delivering those clothes or food might be gay.

This is a tragedy. There are plenty of days where it feels like the battle over gay marriage has gotten completely out of control, and this is one of them. One side may have won the three day war with World Vision, but it left upwards of 19,000 hungry children alone on the real battlefield.

Friends, there’s still pieces that we need to pick up. Whether you’re a “Monday” person or a “Wednesday” person, or someone stuck in between, these kids have suffered great loss– and will continue to suffer. Who will join me in standing in the gap? Who will put starving children ahead of their personal theology? If not us, than WHO?

Please join me in sponsoring a child today. Use this link right here— it’s just $35 a month, and together we can turn the tide of this horrible event.


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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • That was my worst day last year. I know a lot of folks who mark it as the day they left the Church, (and in some cases, even Christianity), and it breaks my heart. Still not recovered from that.

    You can read some of the stories here https://www.facebook.com/rachelheldevans.page/posts/10152953026654442

  • So, this is what it feels like to have your blood boil.

  • Terrible! So many people were blinded by their own plank in the eye. When will we learn that judging and condemning is not in the job description of a Christian?

  • It was one of mine too, and definitely the day I realized I could no longer identify as evangelical.

  • Jordan

    This demonstrates that many folks weren’t giving to WV to feed the poor, but to make the poor conform to a specific religious mold. Philanthropy was just their way in.

  • Loved Perfectly/Not Afraid

    I can’t identify with Evangalical. Nor can I identify as Progressive. (they have their own types of abuse). I think I’ll just try to identify as a decent human being.

  • R Vogel

    Can you help me, and I’m sure many others, understand how to reconcile giving to an organization that is so beholden to the satanic Evangelical establishment? They won. They hold the purse strings. What will be their next demand that won’t be resisted? Shouldn’t we strive to support organizations that reflect our values, one of which is standing up to bullies and resisting evil? I work in the investment field and I learned a long time ago that it is not enough to know what the goal of the investment, you also have to consider the goals of the largest investors alongside of you.

  • I don’t think most Evangelicals realise that this was a turning event, where their cruelty and conceits were so bald and raw and open that it couldn’t be taken for anything other than the hatred it is.

    This was the day that confirmed to the world that if Evangelicals have the opportunity to hurt LGBT people, no matter what the cost, they will take it.

    I mean, seriously. 20,000 children. And yet I still watch Christians proclaim that there’s room for the table for everyone. But as long as the table is run by people who abandon children if LGBT people are the ones serving the food, it’s all smoke and mirrors and wishful thinking.

  • World Vision’s mission is to do what is right by the children in their care. To most of us, the casualties of this disaster are a statistic, thousands of nameless, faceless children. But the World Vision staff knew each and every one by name, their stories and their struggles, and they were watching the abandonments pour in. Their reversal was done with the best of motives. Not to dangle LGBT people along, but to stop a disaster in the works.

    So don’t blame WV or those who still work with them. I’m still sponsoring a girl in the West Bank. They were trapped between Scylla and Charybis a year ago. The only blame to be assigned is to the Evangelical machine that sought to punish World Vision for extending the love to people they despise.

  • Timothy Hawk

    I wonder how many of those who pulled their sponsorship have retirement funds in portfolios that invest in companies with values they abhor. I guess it’s okay as long as they make money. The Pharisees are alive and well!

  • R Vogel

    With all due respect that is a big steaming pile of crap. Evangelicals are to blame for their part and WV is to blame for theirs. Of course I wouldn’t expect you to cancel your support, you are not evil. But there is a big difference between honoring your commitment, and supporting an organization that has proven themselves to be beholden to a group of evil asshats who would gladly toss that little girl into the fire rather than give a gay person a job. Remember, WV didn’t just reverse their decision, which was bad but in some ways understandable, they APOLOGIZED – I quote “We have listened to you and want to say thank you and to humbly ask for your forgiveness.” [Insert retching sounds] Sorry, I can’t get on board with that. There are too many other choices. The Evangelicals can have the organization they have bought and paid for. I support you in honoring your commitment, but I do not support anyone giving another dime to an organization who would ‘humble themselves’ in the face of such despicable evil.

    Sidebar: It is interesting to note that between the Evangelicals and US Government, WV gets a majority of funding from sources that likely support the very policies that keep that little girl mired in poverty. Sad irony.

  • Chris Hunt

    Hi Benjamin – my life went very sideways three years ago. Your blog postings over this time have been a very real, very comforting and very challenging help to me in my journey. Thank you for giving words to the thoughts and feelings I’ve wrestled with; I thought I was the only one who had these struggles!

    The WV Fiasco only served to reinforce my decision that leaving the Pentecostal movement was the right and healthy choice for me. What made me finally sponsor a child through WV, though, was your post on how most children in orphanages do have parents but those parents are unable to provide for their kids. As a divorced father of two nitwits the thought of never being in contact with my children hits a little close to home. I sponsored a 13-year-old girl in Romania named Andreea Georgiana. She lives with her father and her parents are divorced. My reasons for sponsoring a child are pretty straightforward – they need help. I’m not overly concerned about how WV introduces children to Christianity; the Bible states we’re to reach out wherever there’s need. Period.

    Thanks again, Ben, for showing us the needs and consequences of what goes on in our funny world and how we can make it better.

  • peterhamm

    I too can no longer wear that name because of junk like this.

  • Warren

    One year ago, I still identified as a Christian. Privately, I’d already figured that the apologetics was nonsense and that miracles didn’t happen, but I still went to church and called myself a Christian.

    Sure, I knew that a lot of people used Christianity as an excuse to to terrible things, but that wasn’t my church. My church had good people in it. My pastor once publicly apologized for an incident of homophobia that had happened ten years ago. Yes, Christianity occasionally went too far, and yes, it was probably all just wishful thinking, but didn’t it do more good than harm? Didn’t the church need liberals like myself to change it from within?

    Then World Vision happened. That’s when I saw just how quickly the “good” could evaporate if you didn’t respect the strings it was attached to. That’s when I saw just how effective the liberals were at changing the church from within.

    And what of my own, benign church? Not a word of protest. We had a sermon later about how the World views Christianity as a straitjacket (but of course, we Christians know that true freedom only comes with restrictions or somesuch nonsense), and do you know what quote they used to illustrate the worldly perspective? This comment here. They cut the context (they only used that middle paragraph, and they nixed “As a gay man”), but I knew what they were referring to.

    I’m actually looking at my email exchange with the preacher right now, and I’m frankly ashamed of my tone. So much simpering: “Hey-I-still-respect-you-as-a-preacher!”-ing and “Haha-sorry-token-liberal-I-just-have-to-say-it!”-ing. At least I have the guts to call the affair “unconscionable,” even if I practically apologize for doing it.

    Anyway, long story short, I complained, the preacher invited me over for “clarification,” and he wound up making things perfectly clear for me. I don’t think he “clarified” exactly what he intended, though.

    So, yeah, tl;dr: Was “cultural” Christian, World Vision happened, am now atheist.

  • Herm

    The bishop, priest and the pastor each at different times walked past on the opposite side of the road intentionally ignoring the bloody abomination. The Kenyan homosexual black Muslim driving by stopped, lifted up the mugged and dying Christian, put her in his car, drove to a safe Bed and Breakfast, paid her room, paid for her food, paid for all necessary medical attendees and left his Visa plus cell number until he could come back to see if she needed anything further to heal. Which of them was a merciful, empathetic and compassionate neighbor? Which one was most Christlike?

    Oh, the sorrow here is much more than my heart can address.

    They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Titus 1:16 (KJV)

    They profess to know God, but they deny him by their actions. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work. Titus 1:16 (NRSV)

    There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses
    sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold. Acts 4:34 (NRSV)

    WE are ONE mankind created in the image of ONE God. I hurt, I hurt, WE hurt!!!

  • Herm

    … with married gay brokers managing their precious 401k!!!

  • Herm

    What are the odds that their wrathful Evangelical Allah might burn them in hell for employing a merciful gay married person as versus might burn them in hell for denying even life to the least of these? How do we share Jesus as our Teacher when these espoused Christians send before us throughout the world that this is what Jesus teaches them, starve the children so that the evil homosexual cannot work for a living. Crucified Him yet again!

  • deanmay

    The unknown question is how many children will suffer because our culture promotes sexual fulfillment at any cost as an end in itself. Sex without limits destroys families. When families are destroyed the children suffer the worst. So you can pretend that hiring gays or not is just a policy decision, but the implications reach much further.

  • CanIbeFrank

    My church had done a big campaign to get people to sign up to sponsor a child previous to this. When this horrible, sad, despicable day arose, nary a word was spoken from any of the church pastors or leaders. Sure, they didn’t applaud the decision of WV to stop employing gay people, but they certainly didn’t say that we should continue to support our sponsor children regardless. The silence made me realize how much I didn’t fit in with the church I had called home for about 15 years. I need to be part of a church that always proactively stands on the aide of the needy and downtrodden. Not one that is too weak to take a stance.

  • Jeff Pankratz

    Benjamin, being a practicing missiologist and theologian, wouldnt you say one of the issues we must begin surfacing with organizations like this, is why they have no stated goal to establish healthy churches in those communities they serve?. I see this God’s plan “A” to bless the world, from the book of Acts, through the apostolic letters, we see the first followers of Jesus being killed to establish beach heads in every culture, knowing it is the power of the Gospel that truly sets peoples hearts towards Kingdom-values, serving and sacrificing for the poor, honoring and valuing all people, building into marriages, families, and parenting. I simply see a lack of any goals from any of these charitable organizations that plan on sustainability from establishing local churches, with local leaders discipling families to care for their own neighbors, trusting the Lord for the resources in their own harvest fields, and trusting the Holy Spirit to multiply those means. Instead we rely on the Western dollar, and when the money dries up from the West, people in those countries sadly suffer. I see a much better plan in the multiplicational new testament church networks, as when the church in Antioch provides relief to the church in Jerusalem, etc. It might be simplistic, but I just see no goal in their organizational leadership for this. And as God’s plan for His church to be His agent of restoration it just seems sad that we arent seeing that as the goal. Sorry for the rant!

  • Andrew Dowling

    Ah yes . . .”gays destroy families” and other lies told to justify abandoning children.

  • Andrew Dowling

    I don’t think you’re looking at it from their side enough. Easy to denigrate their decision to not bravely keep their stance when they are losing child sponsorships like a sinking ship and you’re not seeing the impact of those losses. WV was begun by people with ties to the RW evangelical establishments, but there are lots of people who work there who are not diehard RW evangelicals and just trying to help people (hence their initial decision). They also are one of the larger children’s charities in the world, for better or worse.
    Yes, ideally, they would be replaced by an organization without any strings to the evangelicals (and I personally give to charities other than WV) but that’s not the reality.. The reality is that the lives of thousands of children suffered, and I place the blame predominantly on those who pulled their funds. Bunch of cowards and hypocrites.

  • StevenDavisPhoto

    I’ve been sponsoring 3 kids for years through World Vision. I don’t care who they hire, as long as they are loving on kids and families in communities that need it.

  • Kevin Jackson

    For what it’s worth, I sponsor a child through Compassion, and receive letters from her pastor occassionally. So, yes, there is work to establish a church. But that doesn’t mean impoverished Christians aren’t still impoverished. My prayer is that Diana and other Compassion/World Vision/Et al children start to turn the tide when their turn comes. They are the ones now receiving education and spiritual training.

  • Ron McPherson

    I’m not understanding your point. Are you suggesting that it’s justifiable to pull one’s support of an organization that cares for children (which actions could destroy families) in protest of such organization hiring gays (which you believe could result in the destruction of future families)? In other words, destroy families now to prevent the possible destruction of other families? Sorry, I’m probably missing something.

  • No, you’re not missing anything- you get it perfectly.

  • World Vision had one mandate, to connect the generous giving Evangelicals to the needy children. They chose to scandalize the one at the expensive of the other. Massive fail, and for no good or godly reason.

  • Ron McPherson

    I was afraid of that but thought the logic was so bizarre that it just couldn’t be true

  • otrotierra

    Thanks Benjamin. Perhaps it will take another generation or so before World Vision is no longer held hostage by U.S. evangelicals who are so hostile to Jesus and the Greatest Commandment?

  • Don Lowery

    Coming out of an evangelical background…I find this sad…but not unexpected. When you consider that these same “christians” are more than happy to allow children in their own towns/cities/states/nation to starve and die for their power and glory of being on the “wrong” side of their culture war on this side of hell.

    Wonder what the look on their faces are going to be when they start throwing out excuses as Jesus tells them He doesn’t know who they are? What’s their American exceptionalism and fighting a losing battle in their culture war going to do to help them at this time? To quote Carly Simon…”It’s too late baby…it’s too late”.

  • Herm

    Dean, there are more questions while living than we will ever answer all the way to just on the other side of eternity. What don’t you understand about having to come to Jesus as a little child? Little children don’t care about the infinite things they don’t understand, things they know they cannot control and know it isn’t within their authority to judge. That is completely within only the purview of their parents and adult siblings. Why do you usurp the capable authority of Jesus and the Father? My questioning heart and mind finds this much more abominable than any consensual sex.

    They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Titus 1:16 (KJV)

    Are you professing that you know God as your Lord and Father by the Holy Spirit? -or- Are you working out of your own carnal brain to surmise the destiny of those you do not know as I know God does? If you are working out of your own brain then I can comfortably and sincerely ask my Father to forgive you for you know not what you do. Love you!

  • otrotierra

    If the comments section to Benjamin’s previous blog post (or pretty much any of his posts) is any indication, U.S. evangelicals do not seem to know what Jesus actually taught. And when being inconvenienced with the actual teachings of Jesus, they are frothing-at-the-mouth outraged.

  • Don Lowery

    The only thing I would change in that response is changing the word “know” with the word “care”. Otherwise…perfect!

  • Herm

    The most humbling carnal realization possible outside the Spirit is that we simply don’t know anything about what we have no clue to even look for. When daring to know that realization as true we are at first are overwhelmed just beginning to realize how much more there might be that we have yet to even have a clue of. As a confessed ignorant little child I find it’s a bearable and pleasurable load of responsibility to actually have a Father, Brother and Guide to navigate me through this graced opportunity of life, an adventure of love.

    I can only pray (while picking up some of the lost) that the abandoned children once contracted by evangelicals for their survival can one day ask their Father to forgive those who did not know Him, His Son nor His Spirit.

    Thanks, do so love you!

  • Herm

    I think they care but are ignorant to anything beyond their man made sanctuary, in the spirit of Caiaphas and his congregation screaming to crucify the God they did not know. I love them and am available to God as he shows me how to help them. I hurt at this moment more for the children whose only sanctuary was once found in the hearts of the ignorant and may now be lost. I care as I know God cares and They will lead me a They know best to relieve some misery in others.

    Thanks Don! You make it easy to love you as does otrotierra.

  • kaydenpat

    So it’s okay to kick innocent children off sponsorships to punish WV for hiring gays? That’s really Christ-like, right?

  • No easy answers on this one. But people were not trying to punish WV for their horrible and ungodly mistake. WV stupidly put them in a situation that they found untenable.
    There is a lot of moral outrage against those who felt forced to drop their sponsorship, but it was WV who committed a heinous act of moral compromise, and inflicted it on innocent sponsors.

  • scc

    This post sickened me. Such a sad state of affairs to end a relationship with a child over something Jesus said nothing about. I was so sad and so moved that I clicked on the link and sponsored Ana in Romania. Thank you, Ben, for calling us to Christ-like living. I am often moved by your blog but today I was moved to action.

  • kaydenpat

    And what about the children who lost sponsorship?

  • kaydenpat

    I know of zero children “suffering” because of same sex marriage. I know of thousands who suffer because of abandoned sponsorships though.

  • I agree. When so called responsible adults sin, or come into agreement with sin, it is the innocent who suffer the most. Even more over which WV has cause to repent. I pray that in their repentance they find a way to repair the damage they have done.
    It is like during divorce. The parents go their separate ways seeking for “happiness” and “self-fulfillment”. They break their blood covenant and it is the children who suffer the most.
    God help us all.

  • Ron McPherson

    “…it was WV who committed a heinous act of moral compromise, and inflicted it on innocent sponsors.”

    So the ones who withdrew support to the children are the victims?

  • I never called them victims, and for sure the children were the most affected by WV horrible mistake. But also affected were the sponsors, as well as those in active homosexuality who were tragically given the message that their sin is compatible with Christianity. No one benefited from this. And as evidence from the comments on this blog, it caused further division in the Body of Christ on an issue about which it is inconceivable from the Word of God that we would be divided.

  • Ron McPherson

    Had WV issued an edict that they would hire those who have remarried after divorce, do you think the reaction of protest would have been the same?

  • No, sadly the church has gone into almost complete apostasy on that one.

  • Javier

    Hi Ben! So anyway….where were we? Oh yeah, you were avoiding debate and truth by being incredibly rude. No worries, man. I forgive you. Soooooooo, I’ve prayed for you….and I am going to, once again, without attacking anyone else’s position on here, state that attacking and judging those Christians who feel convicted to withdraw contributions from WV is presumptuous and sinful. Not saying you have done that….although I haven’t read your writings (I only just learned about you the other day.). But…..many on here are being very judgmental, and it would be nice if someone actually had integrity and called them out. I mean….many of you criticize people like me, but never yourselves. Peculiar. You can still call out people who judge while maintaining sadness that the kids suffer. So anyhoo, Ben….buddy…..you gonna make nice like Jesus would do? Or are you going to continue to run away from what could be a very intelligent conversation?

  • Javier

    That is quite the smear. Unfortunate.

  • Javier

    Exactly correct. Many misguided moral relativists on here wrongly place the blame on Christians that were convicted to withdraw contributions. Moral absolutism dictates that World Vision is to blame. Nobody else made that happen. They did. And the people who criticize cannot or will not (in fact, some people lack guts to debate, right Ben?) offer sound Biblical doctrine as justification for attacking those people.

  • Javier

    Yes, respectfully, you are missing something.

  • Javier

    That is not entirely correct.

  • Javier

    Benjamin, I understand that I probably come off with a tone that you object to, but I am a Christian. I have loved supporting multiple kids with WV for over 10 years. People like me, who are sincere in their convictions don’t deserve to be attacked or judged, especially with the other side only wanting to reside in an echo chamber. It is divisive to the church and wrong, and I cannot and will not let it stand without rebuttal. Just so everybody knows, Ben banned me from his Facebook page because he disagrees with me. Extremely disappointing.

    I pray God’s blessings on you, and I pray for your understanding of scripture. You and others like Rachel Held Evans are misguided. I’m telling you this in Christian love. But again, the biggest thing that offends me is how you and your followers absolutely judge conservative Christians without any context, clarity, fairness….you name it. That saddens me…and it saddens God too. Those sins are no less offensive to God than any other….including homosexuality. Again, blessings to you and your family. I pray whatever pain you’ve experienced in the church can be healed. I pray for you to become a mighty man of God.

  • Javier

    Don’t get me wrong though, Ben. You do make many Biblically sound points in your blog. I agree with much of it.

  • Ron McPherson

    Would you care to enlighten me on what you think I’m missing?

    Peace

  • Javier

    Only if:

    1. You listen.
    2. I am not going to be attacked, like most on here are doing
    3. We can have a rational conversation. I don’t engage in serious discussion with people who aren’t serious about debate and learning.
    4. I don’t get banned by Ben because he disagrees with me and evidently fears debate.

  • Javier

    Conservative Christian here. Been Southern Baptist my whole life. Very well read. I have never heard anyone make that argument.

  • Javier

    Very small-minded, and cliche attack. You and many others on here just LOVE to make remarks like that about people you don’t know. Moreover, you don’t know their heart. Your comment is very offensive and prejudiced. Herm, same to you.

  • Javier

    You don’t understand their reasoning.

  • Javier

    WOW!!!!!! Benjamin, YOU said this? And I quote:

    I find myself internally distanced from some of what I see in Progressive Christianity. Since I’ve never held back from critiquing Evangelicalism, it seems only fair that I also be open about some elements of Progressive Christianity, both in thought and praxis, where I’m just not on board:

    5. Policing the Progressive Christian borders

    As I write in my forthcoming book, Christian Outsiders, once we begin to draw our identity from a Christian label instead of Christ himself, we quickly find ourselves in a destructive cycle of needing to police the borders of that label– correcting, chastising, and expelling those who cross outside of the lines the label has drawn. While fundamentalists and Evangelicals do this, progressives do it too– and I find it exhausting to deal with. Progressives do this mainly via the Progressive Twitter Police– folks who are probably well meaning, but have failed to realize they’ve just crossed over into a different kind of fundamentalism.

    There are just far too many progressives ready to rebuke you for not being progressive enough. One time I recommended a book by an Evangelical author and was told that I “just lost the right to call myself a Progressive,” I was soundly scolded another time for suggesting that a central aspect of being a Christian is to “go out and make more disciples” (crazy idea, huh?), and thought folks would burn my house down when I suggested we shouldn’t be rooting for Mark Driscoll’s destruction.

    Folks come to Progressive Christianity so they can question and wrestle in a safe place, which means that honest dialogue, even disagreement, is welcomed. Current culture however, has a toxic level of policing the progressive borders– and this is completely losing me.

  • Javier

    Guess you changed your mind, huh? Or were you just blowing smoke that day? lol

  • Javier

    Been reading your stuff, Ben. I must admit, you’ve tugged at my brain a little on some things. Not a whole lot, but some. :) You’ve got some good nuggets. Anyway, goodnight, brother! I’ll see you tomorrow after church! :D

  • What specifically is not correct?

  • Timothy Hawk

    And how is your comment to me any different? You don’t know me or my heart or who I know. Your comment is very judgmental.

  • Ron McPherson

    What concerns me about your comments and tone is your assertion that “most” on here are attacking others (I haven’t seen this to be the case, at least not by name), and yet you accuse Ben of being fearful of debate (which is just patently untrue). I’ve not witnessed a single instance where Ben has banned someone over mere disagreement. Also, your rules for debate are only for those who are willing to listen and learn (which is not unreasonable, provided you’re willing to do the same). Anyway, peace

  • Javier, I will do my best not to attack or judge you but if I were writing about stealing or lying and they were your key vices would that be an attack on you or would it be an attack on your vices? If I attack the act of cutting aid to needy children, for what I consider a questionable reason at best, why don’t you consider that a challenge rather than an attack?

    You have a legitimate argument if you believe its a matter of integrity even if you are wrong. But if a view contrary to yours threatens your position (even if its passionately and forcefully presented) and you put up the shutters, then your argument loses its legitimacy.

    I’ve come from a place where I would say that Christians should not compromise theological verities because there are spiritual and eternal principles at stake. But over the years I’ve been severely challenged and through tears and deep regrets have come to see Jesus in another light. I still hold to the Apostles Creed and take the whole Bible seriously but its no accident that Jesus summed up the law and the prophets in 2 commandments: to love God and your neighbour as yourself. He demanded nothing more from us.

    So when someone makes the devastating decision to cut off innocents for the sake of a principle that Jesus never even mentioned I’m seeing gnats and camels. 300 years ago a child could be hanged for stealing pennies to feed his family while the judge was soliciting young boys for his own pleasure. I’m not accusing conservatives of those double standards, I’m only saying that doing what is right sometimes simply means ‘doing what is right’.

    Its a gross simplification but it could be said that the church is divided by those who follow the commandment to love God and those who follow the commandment to love others (the legalists and the antinomians). There is a challenge in that for all of us.

  • Javier

    Yes, it is judgmental. But it isn’t misusing judgment like you did. Your comment attacked the character of people you don’t know. Be honest, Timothy. That’s what you did. I rebuked your comment, not your character. I rebuked the fruit you bear with that comment. That’s the difference. Not claiming to know anyone’s heart. I didn’t make any statement showing prejudice or generalizations about any group of people. You did that. And you did it in a haughty way. If you’re not going to be honest about it, then I guess we’re done here.

  • Guest

    Judging and condemning are not always the same thing. Also, we as Christians are supposed to judge if it is righteous and discerning. John 7:24. You are correct with your plank comment; the Bible does say that if you judge, you will be judged in the same way. But not every kind of judging is wrong or non-Biblical.

  • Javier

    Don’t know what tone you’re speaking of. I was pretty cut and dry. Moreover, I have indeed seen haughty comments on here from you and others. As far as Ben goes, I’m calling it like I see it, brother. He has provided the evidence. I’m always respectful to people who are genuine and fair. However, I get pretty testy and defensive when people like me get smeared. If you can’t see that some people on here are clearly smearing conservatives in their echo chamber, that’s disappointing to me.

  • Ron McPherson

    My remarks have primarily been in the form of questions. At any rate, peace friend

  • Javier

    That is by far the most respectful and intelligent comment I have received, and among the most fair, objective, and intelligent on here. Many can learn from your example…even though you do have some comments on here that rub me the wrong way (but I don’t have enough context with those threads to fairly judge, so I’ll just stick with this one and say thank you). I appreciate it very much. Briefly, I will say that I have never told ANYONE that people who have your position are wrong. Yours is a sound Biblical argument. But….my position is not wrong either. I shall reply in more detail after church. :)

  • Guest

    Judging and condemning are not always the same thing. Also, we as Christians are supposed to judge if it is righteous and discerning. John 7:24. You are correct with your plank comment; the Bible does say that if you judge, you will be judged in the same way. But not every kind of judging is wrong or non-Biblical.

  • Javier

    Judging and condemning are not always the same thing. Also, we as Christians are supposed to judge if it is righteous and discerning. John 7:24. You are correct with your plank comment; the Bible does say that if you judge, you will be judged in the same way. But not every kind of judging is wrong or non-Biblical.

  • Herm

    Would that be “righteous and discerning” as Matthew 7:12 might sum it all up? Lest I be judged abominable as in Titus 1:16. Love you both!

  • Herm

    Prejudice is simply a constructive prioritizing of relationships remaining inclusive. Bigotry is a destructive form of prioritizing relationships similar to prejudice founded on ignorance and is mostly exclusive. Jesus was intentionally offensive to many if the shoe fit.

  • thing1

    Lesbian here. Been gay my whole life. Heard it more times than I can count.

  • thing1

    I was a lesbian Christian. This was the day I lost my faith. I hadn’t realized how much evangelicals hated people like me, or how little they loved vulnerable children. And I think I could have gone on holding on to Christianity, no matter how much they hated me, as long as I could have believed that they loved children more.

    I am grateful for the progressive Christians who called out their evangelical brethren for abandoning WV children. I know that this broke their hearts too. But I couldn’t stay anymore. I miss it sometimes, but I don’t miss the knot in my stomach when I would try to go to church, or the feeling of cold water filling up my lungs when I would try to read the Bible. I’m an atheist now. It hurt like hell to leave, but mostly now I feel free.

    And for the record, I’ve been supporting a little girl with World Vision for eight years. While I was saddened when World Vision reversed their policy, it never occurred to me to cancel my sponsorship. Because how could I voluntarily break a promise to a child who trusted me over something that she had nothing to do with?

  • Jeff Preuss

    I grew up Southern Baptist, and attended a SB college, and I heard it a LOT.

  • Javier

    I would never dismiss anyone’s personal experiences. I am truly sorry y’all (yes, I’m a native Texan lol) experienced that. I would say that SIN destroys families. Sin of any kind. Do you think that is what was meant in your experiences? Just asking. Anyway, I know Christians sometimes do terrible things. Christians are human and fallible just like everyone else. I am certainly no model for perfection. That’s why I need Christ. :) Blessings.

  • thing1

    To be very clear, the “heinous act of moral compromise” you’re talking about would have been allowing someone like me to work at World Vision.

    Here on the receiving end, it sure is difficult to tell your Christian love apart from hatred. They feel so much alike.

  • Rissa

    I started sponsoring a little girl in the West Bank at that time too. Thank you for sticking by yours as well. I am sorry that the American branch of World Vision was compelled to reverse their decision, but I think you are right in your description of their situation. When it came to setting aside their principles or letting children starve, they, unlike the Evangelicals who deserted their sponsored children, made the nobler choice.

    (it’s some comfort to me that our Canadian branch of World Vision is prohibited from such discrimination in their hiring practices; small comfort, on days like that Wednesday, but comfort all the same)

  • Yes, I can well imagine that at times it is hard to tell Christian love apart from hatred, and such feelings must be hard to bear. I have heard the same observation from young couples facing church discipline because they are committing fornication. When we want something so desperately, being told it is not God’s best can feel very unloving. But our feelings in no way change the fact that God loves us, even when He denies us our desires.
    Jesus clearly defined marriage as one man with one woman. “He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.” Matthew 19:4 – 6 He could have broadened the definition but chose to not just affirm it but also close the door to ungodly divorce.

  • Eddie

    Benjamin, your numbers are wrong. You forgot to multiply by 12 months per year. The total amount should come to $79,800,000. Or $7.98 Million per year!

  • LogicAndTruth

    He had already done that.

  • Holy @$&!, you’re right. That is a disgusting number.

    P.S. I became a theologian because there weren’t any math requirements.

  • LogicAndTruth

    This whole thing is very sad. I think the reaction of Christians to abandon the children is horrific. I find it disturbing also that World Vision would align itself as an organization mixed with the pagan religion of our culture that would sanctify as holy, that which is sin. I did not know that people abandoned so many children. I just adopted a child through Compassion or I would step up here. If I had a child I was supporting, I would continue until he/she was an adult. Then I would move organizations. But this was a grievous move by everyone involved here. WV was once the Christian relief organization many trusted most as it had so much integrity. This was a move that showed they were not committed to help people as Christians. It became like other non-faith based relief organizations last year. That wasn’t the only thing that has changed. World Vision seems to have taken on the political agenda of the left, including the support of anti-Israel terrorist groups.

    One other thing is that of late, it was found that WV was not really putting the sponsorship money directly to the children. Perhaps they were too busy sponsoring a PLO sub-group.

    I hope to visit my new adopted girl in Ethiopia someday. I know people who have done that with Compassion.

  • gimpi1

    I have my own story with World Vision, and it’s sort of a twist:

    Back in the day, when the internet was fresh and new and I was a young graphic artist just learning HTML protocols, I wanted to “give back.” I didn’t have more than two dimes to rub together, so I would have to volunteer rather than donate. My health has always been dodgy and I was responsible for my disabled father’s care, so my volunteer work would have to be close to home and not too physical. I hit on the notion of volunteering to help charitable groups to set up and troubleshoot their newly cropping up websites. Since I live in Seattle, World Vision was a natural.

    I volunteered, met some great people (mostly online) and helped set up and debug some stuff for them, including some tricky (in the early days) interactive forms. I did the same for a few other regional charities. Now, I didn’t do this for the possible freelance opportunities, but when some came up with other groups, I was thrilled. However, when I was discussing this with my connection at World Vision, she told me, “Well, we couldn’t do that, of course. You wouldn’t sign our statement of faith.”

    When I volunteered, I made no secret of not being a believer. When I was told that disqualified me for freelance paid work, I was frankly offended. The idea that I was good enough to help with new technology, but not good enough to ever be considered for any paying gigs was insulting. I fumed a bit, then explained my feelings, and disengaged from World Vision. I didn’t stomp off in a huff, I finished the projects I’d accepted, and explained very politely (I thought) why I wouldn’t take any more.

    Last year, at first I was as outraged as everyone else at the conservative backlash. Then, I took a look in the mirror, and I didn’t much care for what I saw. I didn’t behave quite as badly as some folks did, abandoning kids like that, but I still pulled away from a good organization – not because they didn’t accomplish great things – but because I was offended. I realized that I was putting my hurt feelings above the needs of the very people I volunteered to help. It took a while, but I’m back on board with them, and now I have enough money to sponsor. I’ve taken a child, and hope to do more.

    The thing is, that’s what hit me about the Evangelical uproar. It was all about the donors, their hurt, their outrage. But we don’t sponsor kids, volunteer, or help out for brownie-points or to feel all warm and cuddly inside. We do it for the people we help. Last year, I was reminded of that. I won’t forget again. I hope some other folks who pulled their support in a huff can learn that too.

  • In looking at how the Bible interprets judging, it basically says “don’t do it.” It’s not in our purview. If you mean correcting when someone is making a mistake, that is a different matter. Most of the time, the Bible equates judging with condemning. Condemnation is the result of a negative judgment.

    However, as Christians, we may take solace in the fact that “So now there isn’t any condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” – Romans 8:1 (CEB)

  • gimpi1

    See, to me you’re making the same mistake I made, for different reasons. You’re making things about yourself, your beliefs, your societal goals. The kids missing out on sponsorships aren’t chess-pieces being shoved around the board of the U.S. culture-wars, they real people, and their needs don’t change because of how you feel about gay people or how I felt about a statement of faith.

    It’s not about you, your beliefs, (which you have no evidence for, by the way) your church or your need to have any of those validated. It’s about kids needing help.

  • gimpi1

    I haven’t seen any attacks. I’ve seen disagreements. Your statements have been questioned. What do you consider an attack?

  • Noah

    You do realize Jesus chose to spend time with the complete outcasts of society?

    I hope everyone who withdrew support actively tries to ignore doing business with anyone who hires ‘the gays’.

  • Noah

    Criticizing isn’t attacking…and if it is, then we all attack each other. Saying ‘what you did was wrong’ isn’t attacking – otherwise you’re attacking all of them/us.

    Abandoning commitment to children and families who rely daily on the sponsorship because the parent organization is going to hire people who you/others deem Christian pariahs is awful. They’re choice, but awful. You can’t say it’s a good thing.

    Sacrificing the child/family and whatever relationship between them and the giver – for the sake of a principal? Talk about not carrying the cross, but giving that burden to those who had been supported.

    No way Jesus would stop donating. (not support further, perhaps, but wouldn’t withdraw)

  • Javier

    You need to look harder.

  • gimpi1

    Haughty? If you mean, people think you’re wrong, and they say so, yes, that happened. That’s not an attack. Perhaps you’re a bit sensitive when your beliefs are challenged?

  • gimpi1

    Or perhaps you need to be a bit less hypersensitive to being challenged. You could be wrong. I found I was, on a separate issue. Being challenged can be a good thing.

  • Javier

    Um……..let me think……no.

  • gimpi1

    And you don’t think you’re the haughty one? OK, fine. Whatever.

    If you want other people to be willing to open their minds to your views, you have to be willing to open your mind to theirs. If you can’t do that, you’re just spouting off for your own ego. If that’s all you want to do, fine, but don’t be surprised if you are treated like someone spouting off to hear themselves talk.

  • Javier

    Lol…..sigh. Oh the irony. Sorry….Talking to myself. Your comments by themselves amount to good advice. Here’s to hoping everyone can heed them.

  • Javier

    Great.

  • You are so right. Jesus certainly did spend time with the complete outcasts of society. There is not record of Him having done so with active homosexuals but there certainly was of him being with immoral women and prostitutes. When a woman was caught in the act of adultery, he told her accusers that the sinless one should cast the first stone. They all left quietly and only the woman stood before Jesus. He then said, ““Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”
    We too are accepted, loved, and redeemed by the
    Blood of Christ . . . and told to go and sin no more.
    And there is a world of a difference between doing business with a company who hires homosexuals, and the travesty of a Christian organization accepting sexual immorality among its employees. For that there needs to be a zero tolerance policy.
    We have become so acculturated to sexual immorality that we fail to grasp the horror of it all.

    Having said that, does anyone today think that homosexuals are “the complete outcasts of society”? Seriously? Today Bible believing Christians who disagree with living in immorality and DARE to say so, are much more the outcasts.

  • gimpi1

    I don’t think they exist just to “connect… “Evangelicals to the needy children.” I don’t believe, I’m sponsoring and they don’t seem to mind.

    I don’t know if you care, but, while Ben makes me (and many like me) interested in Christianity, your statement, with what seems to be so much focus on yourself and your beliefs, drives me away. I’m not saying you need to change it, but, be aware, to those of us outside the fold, the preachy, exclusive tone is off-putting.

  • Noah

    Have you ever been sexually immoral? I imagine you shouldn’t work for any Christian organization. ?

    Why actively select just the homosexual issue? It’s pretty arbitrary, to me.

    It’s the abandonment of the support that has been counted on. Choosing to not support in any new ways…sure.

  • gimpi1

    I was going to respond, but it’s so clear that you aren’t even open to considering another point of view that I won’t waste either of our time.

    Two steps forward, two steps back… or three or four. I can’t get my head around this sort of thinking…

  • Of course they don’t exist JUST to connect Evangelicals to the needy children, and I didn’t use the word just. But their major support base is Evangelical Christians. I am delighted that you, and other non-believers care enough to support. That shows a kind and generous heart.

    I am really not focussing on myself, or my beliefs, but on the simple teaching of Scripture. I have not quoted my writings, but the words of Jesus.

    The message of Christ was that there is no other way to God but through Him. “Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6 Very exclusive. That was offensive in His day, and ours.

    Then Jesus calls Himself the door and says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber.” John 10:1 Not only preachy and exclusive, but insulting to those who would try and come to God another way.
    Rather off putting tone. But for those who chose to believe and obey, life giving.
    :

  • Herm

    There is no marriage in Heaven! Where and what hell is your heart in? That christian speak argument supports no love of neighbor or enemy! As a child of God today I am denied nothing as long as in everything I do to others as I would have others do to me.

    Sorry Ken for your disciplined pain that scriptural searching Pharisees have taught you to inflict on yourself and others. There really is a divine Instructor directly available in your midst to your heart and mind Whom you clearly do not know.

    Love you and truly wish you the peace and joy you do not know that I testify to you I am enjoying in God’s kingdom not of this world!

  • imokyrok

    Couldn’t you just have helped Save The Children instead? All the help for needy children and none of the bigotry.

  • gimpi1

    Actually, we did both, My husband is sponsoring a little boy from Haiti through Save the Children and I’m sponsoring a little girl from Bangladesh through World Vision.

    I felt it was good for me to work with World Vision, to put behind me my self-focused actions and remind myself that the world is not all about me. World Vision does a lot of good. Are they perfect, far from it. But they exist to provide aid, and for the most part, they do that well. That is more important than my ego.

    It’s sort of a way for me to remember that, in addition to providing valuable and necessary help.

    Besides, if we want World Vision to not be held in the stranglehold that we regard Evangelical beliefs to be, we have to step up and show them there are other donors.

  • Sven2547

    If I were still Christian, last year’s event would make me ashamed to be one.

  • Much to my shame, I have been sexually immoral. While living that way I was unfit for service in any Christian organization. When I repented the Blood of Jesus Christ cleansed me of my sin and set me free. Then I was a candidate for employment in a Christian organization.
    It was WV who chose to openly declare that those involved in homosexual sin could be employed. Their choice, and the reason we are discussing it.

  • ADG

    I can’t understand why World Vision would have made a public announcement regarding a policy change that might be controversial. Hiring of “gay married” individuals could have been quietly implemented.
    Of course regarding children “being abandoned”, it’s most likely that the sponsorships made to World Vision were for the most part transferred to some other organization that the donors felt more comfortable supporting.

  • Oh Herm, anyone today who simply quotes the words of Jesus (words that many do not like) is regarded by some as a Pharisee. Which, considering the relationship between Jesus and the Pharisees, is rather ironic.

  • Oh so very true! There is almost nothing so offensive to the modern PC mentality than the startling words of Jesus Christ. Offensive to our mentality, and our morality. Jesus did not soften the OT prohibitions against sexual immorality, he strengthened them. Jesus did not redefine marriage but clearly stated it was one man with one woman in a blood covenant for life. Jesus did not say there were many ways to God, but that anyone who came another way was a thief and a robber. Jesus was no nonsense and would not tolerate sin. He forgave the repentant, and said “go and sin no more”!

  • No one does more for the neglected, the abused, and the downtrodden of our world than the Christian church.

  • Are people who over eat fit for service in a Christian company? The Bible calls this idolatry, and it is a very serious sin. I hope you’re consistent in your views and that you don’t think over-eaters should be allowed to work there.

  • They didn’t. They were working at a gradual change in hiring practices, but an employee who was not happy tipped off Christianity Today, who told them they were going to do the story with or without a statement from WV.

  • I totally agree with you that gluttony is a very serious sin and that over-eating needs to be addressed in the church and in Christian organizations. The church does not do its constituents any good by turning a blind eye to this sin of the flesh.

  • Herm

    Ken I have been where you are at. You are not quoting the words of Jesus. You are quoting a perception of the words of Jesus as the Pharisees quoted a perception of the words of God to authorize the crucifixion of the God they did not recognize.

    In the words as perceived by John:

    “You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that testify on my behalf. Yet you refuse to come to me to have life. I do not accept glory from human beings. But I know that you do not have the love of God in you. I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; if another comes in his own name, you will accept him. How can you believe when you accept glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the one who alone is God? John 5:39-44 (NRSV)

    Look back and realize who taught you to quote the Bible of 2,000 years ago. The Bible by shared perceptions of yesterday directs us all to the living Word and Lord of today. There is no church building on Earth today that houses God’s sanctuary or is the church of Jesus. From the advent of the Holy Spirit available to all hearts/minds who come in the naivety and humility of a little child Jesus’ church is administered and taught directly from the only High Priest and Rabbi. It does not matter whether your carnal blood family or your carnal church family is teaching you the traditions of their ways you have to hate that enough to die to the carnal influence to be born as a child of God.

    “Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not carry the cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26-27 (NRSV)

    Ken I do not hate you and for that reason I testify my perception from the Family of God as did the scribes of the Bible, Old and New Testament. I do not hate the people you persecute with the sword of your mouth and I parry in kind inspired by love for both of you.

    What is it about Matthew 7:12 that you could not share your perception to parry mine?

    Love you!

  • “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets” My friend is the one who tells me the truth.

    You speak of my “quoting a perception of the words of Jesus” Sadly, Herm, I have never met a person advocating for the acceptance of homosexuality who holds to a high view of Scripture as the inspired Word of God.

  • Herm

    Ken, look at your response to Matthew 7:12 and see what you inserted that is not there: “friend”.

    I don’t advocate for the acceptance of homosexuality or even the rejection of homosexuality. I advocate for what is between consenting adults and harms no one else leaving all judgment and persecution up to only between them and God.

    What hateful person or scholastic family of mankind taught you to revere the testimonial scripture you quote in a higher view than the living Word of God inspiring testimony from His students?

    You are hurting my friend and you are not called to do so by God. Seek, ask and knock and He will answer you. You do not have to believe me, in fact I plead with you to not believe in me to lead you out of your ignorance. I am only pointing to the only Way I know in my Heart and mind for you to realize God in your life.

  • The words within the quotation marks are what are in Matthew 7:12. The rest is commentary.
    Herm we have a fundamental theological difference. I believe that the Word of God is inspired and that the Word and the Holy Spirit agree, completely. The Living Word of God and the written Word of God agree, and never contradict each other.

  • Herm

    Ken, your commentary inserted the word “friend” as though others have to be friends for Matthew 7:12 to apply.

    Ken, I have no “fundamental” theology, none. That’s where you cannot hear and refuse to listen. I am not testing what I say or do according to a doctrine, theology or dogma. I am learning in relationship with God as a disciple of Jesus. That is ALL the Christian Bible serves us of mankind to do, points to Jesus as our Rabbi.

    At this period of celebrating our risen Christ understand the temple’s holy of Holies curtain was torn to allow the Holy Spirit into the entire world. The carnal temple was rendered destroyed and forever useless upon Jesus’ last breath on the cross. The temple was rebuilt in three days by the Spirit of God in the hearts and minds of Jesus’ students. You are a student of the carnal temple (theology, doctrine, creeds, and dogma of mankind) and I am testifying before you today you too could be a student of Jesus if only you destroy the carnal temple influencing the fruits of their spirit.

    No baptism of mankind, sprinkled or immersed, gets you into the discipleship of Rabbi Jesus. Only baptism by Jesus in the Holy Spirit gets you into little child student status as a child of God. You do not know that because you’ve been convinced by Man that they can take you to God and make you Christ like. Choose as you will but take heed, please:

    “They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” Titus 1:16 (KJV)

    You need time to have a heart to heart talk with Jesus so in the words of one of my most beloved and loving atheists:

    “I was going to respond, but it’s so clear that you aren’t even open to considering another point of view that I won’t waste either of our time.

    Two steps forward, two steps back… or three or four. I can’t get my head around this sort of thinking…”

    May you find the peace and joy I sense you seek!

  • The argument that trading one kid for another makes it ok is still confusing to me. Suppose my son came out as gay at 13 years old. I kick him out with no food, no clothing, no shelter. But it’s ok because the next day I adopt a different kid, after confirming no gay people work in the adoption agency of course.

    I can’t quite wrap my head around the “kids are interchangeable” argument. I can’t imagine sitting down to write the goodbye letter to my two children and explaining to them that it was because a gay person may be part of sending that letter.

  • axelbeingcivil

    Transferring support means all these kids using these programs, all these communities in need, are left suddenly in the lurch. The infrastructure built by World Vision is not suddenly and instantaneously replaced. All the work they’ve spent goodness knows how many years building may be effectively killed as the cycle of poverty hits with its usual brick-to-the-head-like intensity. Meanwhile, a sudden influx of support may take years for a charity to make effective use of for the same reasons.

    In short, no, transferring the funds elsewhere still does real, human, likely long-term harm.

  • Adam “Giauz” Birkholtz

    Oh, really? I’m going o say a dirty word… CANADA!

  • R Vogel

    I see if from their side. They are an Evangelical organization who momentarily forgot their place and were slapped back into it by their masters who hold the purse strings. That’s fine. They can be whatever they want. All I’m saying is you can’t ignore the fact that they are subject to those masters, who are evil. If you do not have the same values as their masters, you would be smart to invest your charitable dollars elsewhere (UNLESS you already made a commitment) becasue we have seen THEIR MASTERS CALL THE SHOTS. There are plenty of ways to support needy children without having your dollars directed by the cabal of evil known as Evangelical Chrsitianity in the US.

  • Adam “Giauz” Birkholtz

    I haven’t heard Jesus say one word in support of the Bible. How am I to know that it’s not just recording (interpreted) biggoted bullcrap (well one way or the other the clobber passages boil down to [someone] is OK for us to kill, so why not just throw them out because of that?)?

  • LITERALLY the very essence of Phariseeism. So much concern with being made “impure” by association that we forsake the ones closest to Jesus’s heart.

  • It was not called “the Bible” back then, but it was referred to as the Law and the Prophets
    Matthew 5:17-20 (ESV)
    “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
    Now you can say you have heard Jesus speak in support of the Word of God.
    The OT did proscribe the death penalty. The NT does not because God came down and took all our sins on Himself and endured the death penalty we deserved.
    The NT instead proscribes death to our sinful deeds through repentance and accepting Jesus sacrificial death on our behalf.
    The most beautiful love story ever told.

  • Linda File

    Heartbreaking. Though I recently went through complete de-conversion after a lifetime in Christianity, I felt a moral commitment to finish what I had begun with the several WV children we sponsor. Never was it even a thought to cut them off. I found WV gracious when I called and explained I would no longer send the cards with Bible verses and stories but would make my own with simple sentiments of shared humanity. Though it does not surprise me that Christians would make a statement on this issue by cutting children off, I still find it appalling. Yet another reason I am glad we left it all behind for a better ethical system.

  • 22044

    Hi Benjamin. Thanks for the advocacy you’re doing for WV. Just a brief comment to propose that any kids who lost sponsors didn’t otherwise lose their provisions. 19K fewer sponsors means a loss of about $8M in sponsorship money for the year. For the last year that WV’s financials were available, the organization took in about $600M in overall revenue. It seems to me that since WV puts children first, they probably made some reductions elsewhere to cover the 1% of revenue lost until they can replace the former sponsors.

  • Ron McPherson

    So where does this ultimately end? Would you support WV implementing a prohibition against employing the obese?

  • No way to win with that question. The answer is no, which will cause someone to accuse me of being inconsistent or some such thing. But the Bible puts sexual immorality in a class all its own. Would be good if the obese could be helped though.

  • For the record, there is room for disagreeing with same-sex marriage and still participating in the greater good of feeding the hungry, even if the organization providing the goods has wavered on something you deem important. The youth group for which I volunteer participates each year in World Vision’s 30 Hour Famine fundraiser. Last year, our group of kids raised the third largest amount of any group in the WORLD who did the famine. And this was during and immediately after the whole WV fiasco. And the question of dropping the famine was not even discussed among the leaders, all of whom believe in the traditional sex ethic and wouldn’t agree with same-sex marriage. And of all of those who donated money and support for the fundraiser, I’m sure that almost none of them would agree with same-sex marriage either. But that didn’t somehow mean to them that they shouldn’t feed hungry kids.

  • Javier

    Hey there. Sorry it took me so long. Life happens. :) Anyway, again, I want to say that I completely respect the position of maintaining contributions to WV. You have Biblical reasoning all day long. I just object to the expressions of many that Christians who advocate for withdrawing contributions don’t have a sincere Biblical position too. An argument can be made for both perspectives. I have never heard anyone judge and smear people that continue to contribute to WV…maybe you have, but I haven’t. I don’t like people on your side of the argument smearing people like me. People on this site and others….not one single person (from what I have seen), has had enough intellectual honesty to at least respect the sincerity of our conviction or trust that it doesn’t come from a place that wants to do harm…even if one disagrees with it. Respectfully, I find it offensive and hurtful. And every time I’ve begun to try and explain this, I have received horrible verbal treatment. In fact, I have received some of the most unloving, un-Christlike responses on here than anywhere else. I’m not perfect..nobody is. But I’ve tried to be loving, patient, kind, and gentle while maintaining self-control in what I’m saying. I fail sometimes, but I try….and I have even apologized when I have failed….even when I am misinterpreted. I have seen no such effort on the other side of this argument…and I wish I did. That’s all.

  • Javier

    Well said.

  • fb

    Hadn’t heard that. If true, CT should be ashamed of themselves.

  • I’ve not seen anyone smear you or conservative Christians as a whole in this discussion. In my experience conservatives tend to be more accusative and dogmatic than progressives. I’ve experienced this a few times here and its very frustrating. Also, while I acknowledge your right to your opinion and will listen to a reasoned argument I think that defending the action to withdraw funding from WV and the conservative attack on WV over an arguable point is indefensible.

    Having a sincere biblical position doesn’t override your humanity and having a conviction doesn’t put you in the right. I think you are being over sensitive and mistaking challenge for attack. I’m disappointed with WV, I didn’t appreciate how beholden they were to conservative Evangelicals, a group who have a great deal of wealth and power and who should expect to be attacked.

  • th

    is there a link to the official statement? would like to see it.

  • The problem with removing support based on WV hiring gay people is that the removal of support is based on a chosen sin. Why is there no outcry for WV to weed out all the adulterers in their midst? Why not find out all the people who are having premarital sex? Surely such people are not pure enough either to be serving in a Christian ministry. Or is it just because those are the sins of straight people that they get a pass? Sin is sin. Either discriminate based on sin or don’t.

  • Would Jesus refuse to support starving children simply because the person providing the food was a sinner?

  • Did you miss the part where he said “he who is without sin, throw the first stone?” God himself is the only one who gets to say to each individual “Go and sin no more.” We are the ones who get to put down our stones and leave the person alone with Christ to be transformed.

  • I Corinthians 5 says “I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
    The first part of 1 Corinthians 5 says failure to judge the immoral in the church and to remove them causes their immorality to spread like yeast through a lump of dough.
    Without loving discipline the stubbornly sinful will not receive the help they need. God in His love and mercy uses His church to do this, even when those in immorality howl at the “injustice” and well meaning Christians admonish against judging.

  • FORCED to drop their sponsorship? Seriously? And they feel outraged??? Not one person had to drop sponsorship of the children. They CHOSE to do that. They could’ve written letters, raised awareness, asked WV to reconsider based on whatever reasoning they wanted. They were in no way FORCED to remove sponsorship. That would’ve taken a gun to the head. I honestly can’t believe anyone could justify themselves this way. Just stand up and say, “I believe that I would be supporting sin by sending money to a company that employs gays and lesbians. The children being adversely affected is a reasonable consequence of my personal choice based on my faith.” Just say it. That’s the reasoning behind stopping the life-giving flow of money to families that need it. But by all means, continue to support that “heinous act of moral compromise” every day when you to to the movies, buy coffee at Starbucks, get some yarn at Hobby Lobby, pay for electricity at your home, go to Disneyland with your kids, and any other number of things at companies that employ gays and lesbians.

  • Ken, I place the words and actions of Jesus above the words and actions of our brother, Paul. So we differ greatly there.
    If a brother or sister in Christ is behaving in a way that clearly causes harm to another, I will for sure say something and intervene with care. But I will not step between two people who love each other and are doing no harm to others. Our brother, Paul, also said that the greatest thing of all is love. In all things, love first. Love is transformative. Dogma is not.
    In my opinion, love for the children supported by World Vision should’ve trumped judgment of the company and its employees.

  • I understand your position, and I believe you have a heart of compassion. But I also note that I have yet to meet anyone who accepts what same sex couples do, and who at the same time maintain a high view of the entire Word of God from Genesis to Revelation, including the inspired writing of our Brother Paul.

  • I understand. I place the Holy Spirit above the Bible, that is for sure. I believe Jesus is alive and well today and speaks to us today. For me, if something does not meet the criteria of love FIRST, it fails the test of the cross. I base my entire belief system on what Jesus did on the cross and I believe the entire Bible points toward that. Pure, unadulterated, unconditional love. That is where I start and that is the lens through which I view the scripture. If my behavior is going to cause others harm, I MUST reevaluate it. If my behavior is going to turn people away from Christ rather than toward Him, I MUST reevaluate it. Because Jesus accepted us ALL on the cross. I aim to not do less in this life (though I fail regularly! Thank Jesus for Jesus!).
    I am just sharing my point of view with you as I completely understand the value you place on the scripture. For me, Jesus and what He did on the cross comes first, then scripture. If a law does not violate the requirement for sacrificial love on my part, then I will do my best to follow it.

  • “The establishment was outraged that gay people might work at a Christian organization”

    That isn’t true. They were rightly outraged that a Christian organization caved to the LGBTQX lobby and was going to hire people in “same sex marriages.”

    “And beyond the relational damage, there’s somewhere around 6 million dollars of funding for children living in dire poverty that has now vanished, all because thousands of my fellow Christians couldn’t stomach the idea that the person delivering those clothes or food might be gay.”

    And there is another false statement. Again, we don’t want to support an organization that either agrees with the pro-LGBTQX / anti-Christ lobby or is too wimpy to stand up to them. I’m sure they had gay employees working there without issue. What they had every right to do was not to employ those living in God-mocking relationships. Then again, the “progressives” aren’t big on religious freedoms these days.

    I have had 3 sponsor children — one for 17 years now — and we’ve loved the experience. I was able to visit the one in Kenya 5 times. What a joy! I am going to keep funding them until they are adults. Then I’ll move that portion of my giving to more reliable organizations.

    People who shifted from World Vision didn’t go burn their money. They shifted it where they could give it in good conscience. Why are you so harsh and judgmental to them?

    I find it ironic that these “progressive” Christians are nearly always pro-legalized abortions and would have cheered for the right to kill these children in the womb — or even partway out of it if you are a “Christian” Leftist*. So spare me the crocodile tears.

    *The “Christian” Left is far more extreme in their pro-abortion agenda than the average pro-choice person. They insist that life begins at the first breath and insist that Jesus is fine with killing unwanted children until that point.

    I realize how ridiculous their views sound and how many people must think I’m making a straw-man argument. But that is just because their own words are so clear and extreme.

    “According to the bible, a fetus is not a living person with a soul until after drawing its first breath.”

    More here about how to respond, with full, in-context quotes from them: https://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2015/01/14/the-christian-left-is-far-more-extreme-than-the-average-pro-choice-person-2/

  • 22044

    Hi Enesvy,
    Personally, I would probably come to the same conclusion that you did (although we may differ on the process that leads us there).
    However, there is a rare (at least by its lack of discussion on blogs) but very important principle of Christian living: allowing others to honor their consciences. If other sponsors believed that they couldn’t continue their partnership with WV after WV announced their policy change, we are commanded not to judge them because of that principle.

  • Hi, 22044. :) I understand what you are saying and I do understand how people feel about homosexuality being a sin because I used to feel that way. However, in this case, I personally could not let my discomfort with someone else’s sin get in the way of feeding and caring for children. It’s just doesn’t match the importance at all. I can promise you that WV employs adulterers, people having sex before marriage, spouse and child abusers, among a multitude of other sinners. But I guess those are cleaner sins? Those sins are apparently not enough to keep Christians from supporting the needs of children. But if a man kisses a man, well, that’s an actual dirty sin that just can’t be supported.
    That is hypocrisy.

  • 22044

    I remember WV’s original statement…that they would continue to reject people for employment who were known adulterers or fornicators, but that they would extend their hiring to include gay people who considered themselves in a same-sex marriage. Many people noted that and considered that to be an inconsistent stance, hence their concern with continuing to partner with WV.
    We are entitled to believe that they may be hypocrites, but they have their consciences wired differently for various reasons, and the conclusion is that their allegience to their consciences matters more to the Lord than our opinions. Especially if we speak in generalities.

  • Wow. I didn’t know they screened for sinners. You set me straight on that one. That is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. Is it on the application: “Are you an adulterer?” “Are you currently in a relationship where you are fornicating?” Jeez. How ridiculous. They do know that everyone working there is a sinner, right?

  • In that context, bizarreness of “logic” is a feature, not a problem seen as needing resolution. That’s the problem; we as a species have largely succumbed to our teachings over the last few decades not to look any farther than our own carefully-nurtured prejudices and narrowest self-interest. If we can’t solve that problem, quickly, we’ll be the problem that gets solved.

  • Hi there,

    I get where you’re coming from on a lot of this. Really, I do.

    “I have had 3 sponsor children — one for 17 years now — and we’ve loved
    the experience. I was able to visit the one in Kenya 5 times. What a
    joy! I am going to keep funding them until they are adults. Then I’ll
    move that portion of my giving to more reliable organizations.”

    That is totally reasonable, and it is, in my mind, the only responsible, loving, and Christlike thing for a sponsor to do, if he/she believes that same-sex marriage goes against the teaching of Jesus.

    The problem is, that’s not what these people did.They abandoned real kids to whom they had made a commitment, supposedly in the name of Christian love, to support. Up to 19,000 people/couples did this. This is what is so reprehensible to so many people. This is why Ben’s being so “harsh and judgmental.” It shows that quite a number of conservative Evangelicals have their priorities a bit out of order, don’t you think?

    Just to be clear, I agree that same-sex marriage isn’t something that Jesus endorses. But look: the progressives have a point on this one.

  • Hi Mike,

    I find it illuminating that the author ignored that WV has plenty of $$ to continue to fund those children (no one is starving because of this) and, more importantly, that he never faulted the LGBTQX lobby that was the original catalyst. If they weren’t so aggressively bullying Christian organizations this way WV wouldn’t have caved.

    That said, the primary fault is on WV for caving, secondarily on the LGBTQX lobby for their anti-Christ actions, people like the author for missing those points and blaming people whose consciences wouldn’t let them participate in the ministry any longer, and finally, if at all, the donors who left.

    Thanks for your insights!

  • You sound like my kid: “it’s not my fault, I didn’t start it.”

    Abandoning children is sinful. Period.

  • Thanks for confirming that you ignore (or, more accurately, promote) the sins of the LGBTQX bullies and ignore their role in this.

    And it really isn’t my fault. I didn’t pressure WV to mock the word of God and cave to pressure from these anti-Christians. I didn’t stop sponsoring these children — who still would have received food and such even if I had picked OTHER CHILDREN to sponsor in another more Christ-honoring program (oh, wait, you forgot to address the benefits that others received when donations were shifted . . . mustn’t spoil the self-righteous narrative!). I kept donating, so I thought I’d at least get a virtual hug from you. I just pointed out that while I did exactly what you asked, I multi-tasked and addressed what I saw as your fallacious reasoning.

    You also ignore that this mess sent a great message to other Christian organizations: Don’t cave! The LGBTQX lobby can’t be appeased, so don’t bother trying.

    I assume you are super-duper anti-abortion, because if you think that shifting sponsorship $ is so sinful you must go insane when the “Christian” Left promotes their pro-abortion agenda*, completely with taxpayer-funding to increase abortions.

    *https://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2015/01/14/the-christian-left-is-far-more-extreme-than-the-average-pro-choice-person-2/ “According to the bible, a fetus is not a living person with a soul until after drawing its first breath.”

  • I fully understand your reasons for ‘losing your religion’ but I’ll not delve into trite remarks like “follow Jesus, not other Christians” – just doesn’t fill that void or excuse ‘our’ behaviour. I have to say ‘our’ since I am still an evangelical (in label only, I suppose). All that I can say is that this sort of thing DOES grieve me deeply, and I know that my Lord Jesus’s own true ‘ethical system’ is what I hope and pray that I follow, and not the typical pulpit bilge that I’ve heard constantly for years. We need to get back to Jesus and leave all the other claptrap behind – ‘What Would Jesus Do?’ is so often said without any actual thought about what he REALLY would do.

    I truly will pray that you find him again; the REAL Jesus. Grace be with you.

  • You truly are an example to us Christians!!! Self-deprecating humility in the face of offence. Bravo! (my comments are truly sincere – just in case they might be read as sarcastic).

  • gimpi1

    Ahh **blushes** thanks. And it only took me (mumble) years to get there!

    See, I figure if I can get past my ego and self-focus, (with a little nudge from Ben) anyone can. That’s why I posted this.

  • To be sure, I probably wouldn’t see eye to eye with Benjamin on this; I believe that WV made a bad decision from the beginning. I believe that if they were under pressure from some organization to make that decision, then said organization is also in the wrong. But that doesn’t excuse yet another bad decision on the part of sponsors to suddenly drop the kids they were sponsoring, when there was a perfectly good, more Christlike route to take, which is the one you took. The fact that WV happened to have enough funds to cover this loss is great news, but it doesn’t somehow take away the fact that the sponsors still abandoned the kids. And this doesn’t deal with the relational aspect of the damage that was done. As Ben has highlighted, and you well know, sponsors do more than just send money.

    Assigning degrees of fault just seems pointless to me. Conservatives should just own up to this one. The world sees it, and it looks bad. Really bad.

  • 22044

    You are probably not very familiar with how some non-profits hire. They may require a statement of faith or an employment agreement to disclose that the candidate is not participating in egregious sexual sin. You’re welcome to think that that is ridiculous, but they probably believe those tools help them hire the people they think are best suited.

  • Yes. Because that’s how Jesus did it. Oh, wait.

  • Javier

    I agree with most of what you wrote. Where you go wrong is that you do not distinguish between sinners and those that actively condone sin. Nobody is “pure.” You are correct: sin is sin. If there were an employee, say a man, who was womanizing openly, I would not contribute to WV. If there were ANY employee that actively condoned ANY sin, I would feel the exact same way. That is not the same thing as simply being a sinner; that describes EVERYBODY.

  • So as long as you can’t see the sin, as long as it is secret active sin, that is acceptable. A married gay person could work there as long as no one knew they were gay. It’s just dumb. Where does God ever give us the right to determine who is a worthy sinner and who is not?

  • Javier

    With respect, I think you still don’t get what I’m saying.

    No, if continuous sin is secret, it is still not ok. But, if nobody knows about it, then I guess that would mean that nobody knows. You’re right….that would be dumb….because it really is beside the point and not what I said.

    This is not determining who is a worthy sinner and who is not. It is distinguishing between a Christian who is also a sinner, and a person who sins but does not repent, actively condones it, doesn’t ever stop the sin, advocates for it, etc. You’re last question really is unanswerable….because God does not give us the right to do that. I am a sinner. You are a sinner. Bush is a sinner. Obama is a sinner. MLK Jr. was a sinner. Washington was a sinner. Lincoln was a sinner. Billy Graham is a sinner. The virgin Mary was a sinner. The pope is a sinner….and on and on. That is Christian doctrine that I am sure ALL Christians agree on. Doing any earthly work in the name of Jesus is different than owning a secular business. Doing any earthly work in the name of Jesus doesn’t mean you can’t or shouldn’t hire sinners. That’s ridiculous…because, again, we’re all sinners. But doing earthly work in the name of Jesus does mean that those who do such work must stand for Christian principles. If a church pastor or any church leader sins, that’s one thing. That happens (again, we’re all sinners). But if the church leader is going around with a mistress, and not repenting, he is not fit to lead or do anything in the name of Jesus. This is an important distinction. Standing for Christian principles is very important. If that does not happen, you will see much worse than certain kids who lose contributions. Again, there is a biblical argument for maintaining contributions…and I respect it. My argument is no less valid.

  • Javier

    And again, if it were discovered that someone is actively committing adultery…and not repenting after being confronted by other Christians, that would be just as wrong. If someone who worked for WV once committed adultery and then asked forgiveness and repented, there is no problem. I hope I made it more clear.

  • Javier

    Precisely.

  • Javier

    Again, precisely.

  • Javier

    Enesvy, that is a sound Biblical approach. I respect that. What I do not respect is being smeared and prejudice toward my right of conscience. Not saying you’re doing that, but people do it.

  • Javier

    1. You don’t understand the other point of view.
    2. You need to look harder. I know what attacking is; it is very common.

  • Javier

    “As a child of God today I am denied nothing as long as in everything I do to others as I would have others do to me.”

    False.

  • Javier

    That’s ironic.

  • Javier

    smear – to publicly accuse someone of something unpleasant, unreasonable, or unlikely to be true in order to harm one’s reputation.

    ad hominem –

    1. appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect

    2. marked by or being an attack on an opponent’s character rather than by an answer to the contentions made

    “Perhaps it will take another generation or so before World Vision is no longer held hostage by U.S. evangelicals who are so hostile to Jesus and the Greatest Commandment?”

    “When you consider that these same “christians” are more than happy to allow children in their own towns/cities/states/nation to starve and die for their power and glory of being on the “wrong” side of their culture war on this side of hell.”

    “And when being inconvenienced with the actual teachings of Jesus, they are frothing-at-the-mouth outraged.”

    “Here on the receiving end, it sure is difficult to tell your Christian love apart from hatred. They feel so much alike.”

    “I haven’t heard Jesus say one word in support of the Bible. How am I to know that it’s not just recording (interpreted) biggoted bullcrap (well one way or the other the clobber passages boil down to [someone] is OK for us to kill, so why not just throw them out because of that?)?”

    “This was the day I abandoned evangelicalism, and quite nearly Christianity itself. My faith still hangs by a thread, but thankfully the grace of Christ outweighs the abject cruelty of his ‘followers.'”

    “I wonder how many of those who pulled their sponsorship have retirement funds in portfolios that invest in companies with values they abhor. I guess it’s okay as long as they make money. The Pharisees are alive and well!”

    “I don’t think most Evangelicals realise that this was a turning event, where their cruelty and conceits were so bald and raw and open that it couldn’t be taken for anything other than the hatred it is.

    “This was the day that confirmed to the world that if Evangelicals have the opportunity to hurt LGBT people, no matter what the cost, they will take it.”

    “I mean, seriously. 20,000 children. And yet I still watch Christians proclaim that there’s room for the table for everyone. But as long as the table is run by people who abandon children if LGBT people are the ones serving the food, it’s all smoke and mirrors and wishful thinking.”

    “This was the day I lost my faith. I hadn’t realized how much evangelicals hated people like me, or how little they loved vulnerable children. And I think I could have gone on holding on to Christianity, no matter how much they hated me, as long as I could have believed that they loved children more.”

    …..and many more. I think I’ll rest my case on that one.

  • I’m not quite sure what you mean, Javier. Can you clarify? I’m sincere–not being snarky.

  • Javier

    “Having a sincere biblical position doesn’t override your humanity and having a conviction doesn’t put you in the right.”

    This isn’t about humanity. And it does if I am right.

    “I think you are being over sensitive and mistaking challenge for attack.”

    Pretty sure I’ve made my point on that one.

    “I’m disappointed with WV, I didn’t appreciate how beholden they were to conservative Evangelicals, a group who have a great deal of wealth and power and who should expect to be attacked.”

    Wow.

  • I hear you, Javier. However, not all Christians believe homosexuality is a sin. I do not believe it is a sin (and I am straight–people always want to know that when I say this stuff). So to me, Christians who persecute the LGBT community by saying they’re not worthy to serve Christ are sinning. Now, if you’re set in the idea that homosexuality is a sin, that is not a workable thought process for you and our conversation is done. I simply encourage you to do some research on all points of view (especially those of gay Christians) just to explore and speak with God about. Blessings, brother. Thank you for your kind and thoughtful reply.

  • I understand. Thanks.

  • Javier

    Here’s a dandy from Ben:

    “I am unable to fathom the relational devastation that was caused by Christians who wanted to stand against gay marriage more than they wanted to help the children they sponsored. And beyond the relational damage, there’s somewhere around 6 million dollars of funding for children living in dire poverty that has now vanished, all because thousands of my fellow Christians couldn’t stomach the idea that the person delivering those clothes or food might be gay.”

  • Javier

    Thanks. :) See my reply to choctaw chris.

  • Javier

    Enesvy, the Bible is consistently clear that homosexual behavior is sinful. With respect and humility, I am very well-read and have done the research. Ben isn’t the only one here going for a doctorate.

    You say “persecute.” Again, I find that offensive. That is patently untrue. If you were talking about beating up gays, and doing the despicable things that the Woodboro “Baptist” Church does, I would agree.

    Our conversation is done? Ok.

  • Guest

    After thinking more, I realize that I misspoke. I can see how you used the word “humanity” as an appropriate word.

  • Javier

    Also, back to my original point…..even if we disagree on homosexual behavior being sinful, people on your side should not smear people like me who are sincere in their convictions.

  • Javier

    After thinking more, I realize that I misspoke. I can see how you used the word “humanity” as an appropriate word.

  • Herm

    I can only testify this is so. I am sorry that you don’t know for yourself. True!

  • Javier

    Again, false. Not making any judgments on your salvation, but simply DOING anything, including being good to people, does not earn salvation. Unless a person accepts and declares Jesus Christ as his personal savior…and repents from his sin, he will most assuredly be denied salvation. Maybe that’s not what you meant, but my statement is true.

  • I’m afraid your own definition betrays you. Every point you have quoted can be substantiated and the Evangelical community doesn’t have a good reputation anyway especially when it comes to stunts like the one we’re talking about. Stop defending yourself, it really isn’t good PR.

  • 22044

    Benjamin, sorry…but that’s not your call. Please read my other post about how it is likely that no children lost their provisions.

  • Javier

    With respect, that is nonsense. You are incorrect. They attacked character. They labeled people haters. They ascribed evil motives. Those things, in fact, cannot be “substantiated.” Those are smears. Facts are stubborn things…and truth sometimes isn’t good PR…but to deny what I’m saying, and calling it a stunt, after being provided overwhelming proof is very ignorant or dishonest, or both. These attacks are the definition of prejudice. While you have sufficient knowledge of actions taken here, you do not have sufficient knowledge of character or motives or level of sincerity.

  • Points taken. Blessings on your doctorate pursuit! That’s a huge deal.

  • Noah

    So you think Jesus would stop donating, or advise people to?

    Only if you think I’m attacking you – In your own words, do you have sound Biblical doctrine to justify attacking me?

  • Herm

    Javier,

    You defend what little you have been taught to found your “salvation” upon and offend the so much more there is that Jesus has to teach. I could give a damn about my salvation for such has so very little value compared to my relationship with God! Do you think I did not go through the all the rituals and more that you speak to? Do you truly believe oaths, creeds, sprinkling and/or immersion will any way “earn” salvation? Salvation from what, sin? Freed from the shackles of your sin where do you go from there? Why do you so authoritatively debate what little you glean from the scriptures, that is no more than a small indicator pointing to the infinity of no beginning and no end of what is avaialble to learn, as though such limited knowledge will last you as an eternity’s worth of material to be able to discern true from false while commenting forever more sitting on your special cyber cloud?

    “So for the second time they called the man who had been blind, and they said to him, “Give glory to God! We know that this man is a sinner.” He answered, “I do not know whether he is a sinner. One thing I do know, that though I was blind, now I see.” They said to him, “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?” He answered them, “I have told you already, and you would not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you also want to become his disciples?”” John 9:24-27 (NRSV)

    Jesus, in John 9:24-27, was judged, according to their studies of scripture and by the authority vested in the Pharisees, to be for certain a sinner.

    Javier, I have no authority to judge you and neither did Jesus judge Caiaphas for his executioner’s judgement against Him, even as the only begotten Child of God in his midst, as a “false” and dangerous prophet. Jesus did ask our Father for forgiveness for those authorities usurping God’s name to the death out of ignorance. I can ask our Lord Jesus, who alone has all authority over all of Heaven and Earth today, to forgive you for what you do not know.

    I am a child of God, baptized by Jesus to be His little sibling by the Holy Spirit, and can in all childish naivety run over to hold the hand of comfort out to the most fragile of human beings. If in everything I did not do to all others as I would have all others do to me I would be separate from the perfect law of God’s will, Their Sacred Spirit, and by Their love and grace for others I trust that I would be denied relationship to influence the most fragile of hearts, souls, strengths and minds that are receptive to become a child like I of God. I am denied nothing of what Jesus has determined I am ready to learn to be responsible for by my influence. If I need shelter it is provided exacted to the conditions I need sanctuary from. If I need comfort it is provided, abundantly. If I need nutrients my cup runs over. If I need companionship in addition to the never ceasing relationship in the Spirit of God then a helper, united and bound by reciprocal love, is graced us both for the term of our finite lives together on Earth. I am not a child of God because of what I do to others. I do to others as a child of God faithfully and willingly led, provided for and carried by my Family that we all become stronger and healthier. I know the reciprocal love of my Family because we can and do empathize and react in compassion for one another. I am denied nothing for the Creators of all provide for me, Their child, all that They can more abundantly than I know I need before I need it.

    You appear not to know this is true. You exert your authority that you have determine is justified to call out emphatically false prophets. I can only testify there is much more to know in this world than you know and you do not have that authority to call out false prophets, even if you justify such from the kindness of your heart to protect the most fragile of human beings who may not know what you do. You are not a student of Jesus until you do the following and I testify by my own life in the Spirit this is true:

    “Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not carry the cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.” Luke 14:26-27 (NRSV)

    It is my suggestion that you be much more wary of calling any relationship of a child of God “false” as did the Pharisees call out Jesus as “false”. I am not calling, in any way, your relationship with God “false” for I know if you are sincere it is exactly where it needs be. If you are not sincere then that is under Jesus’ authority to decide. I apparently can empathize easier with your relationship, because I have been there, than you can with mine.

    What you seem not to be aware of is that by authority of the Christian church on Earth I once administered all the sacraments and rituals you speak to as the way to “salvation”. Since then I have been adopted into the Family in the Spirit and am now speaking from that relationship only as a child reliant purely on the authority exercised by my Brother and the nurture provided by my Father. I know the Way personally and He teaches me as the Word now. Eternal life began with the Spirit for me. My sole (soul?) ruling Lord is Jesus today and not a one of my siblings can usurp His authority over my heart, soul, strength and mind.

    The sacrament we know as marriage was made for man and not man for marriage. There is no marriage in Heaven and that is where my heart and mind is. Under Caesar’s civil law I find it an evil distraction to the lost that “Christians”, who obviously do not know Christ enough to be like Him, insist a civil union of marriage between any of Man is a sacred right allowed only to those of their God. There are no ritualistic works of “see Lord what I am doing for salvation” that can make a disciple or sibling of our Lord Jesus. Only by accepting full time the Holy Spirit in your heart and mind will you know the comforting influence of the wind. (John 3:5-10)

    “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’” Matthew 7:21-23 (NIV2011)

    The one sure thing I know today is that I have been saved by Jesus from the intimidation and manipulation of Pharisaical Christians. From what you demand I need know, I know you couldn’t possibly know the peace and joy I feel today serving my Brother that I did not know when serving the sacraments, theology, dogma, creeds and ritual as an ordained Christian authority. I in no way want you to follow me. I want you to know and follow the Guide available to lead your heart and mind without ceasing. Then you will know in everything how to do to others as you would have others do to you.

    When I worship today it is simply a matter of stepping into the temple of my heart and mind and savoring. In all honesty to the best of my ability I testify that the most difficult problem I have today is finding reason to come back out of that divine sanctuary in order to point others on this Earth to the same opportunity available to them. If I did not I would be squandering this ever so short and terminal opportunity to help bring the lost of this Earth into the fold of God’s Family. I prefer to stop and savor but I actually do grow stronger in struggling to lift the mugged from the side of the road to carry them to the Inn of our Lord to heal.

    Javier, all I can do is testify to the Truth I know personally this moment, no better and thankfully no worse than the Old and New testimonies of past times. This is now and this is just, if not more, alive and real as it was way back then. I am only relating to you the image of what is real in my heart and mind as did the inspired of our creator God before us. I know so very little in my 70 sun years on Earth compared to the eternity’s worth I have yet before me to learn and experience in relationship with the most divine of Families, but then I’m biased. Ask directly inside your heart and mind to accept the Word’s word for it, not mine.

    I hope you find the peace and joy I know today in addition to the passion you already enjoy abundantly! Love you truly!

  • Javier

    Lol, as philosophical as you see yourself,

    1. You have no idea what I have “been taught.”

    2. I’m all about a personal relationship with Christ. If you don’t “give a damn” about salvation, free will it up, man.

    3. No, I do not believe any action I do, including baptism, earns salvation. It has already been earned for me….and for you…by His grace. A genuine acceptance Him is all that is required for salvation from the wages of sin. I also do agree that bearing good fruit is important, but they are proof of your salvation, not first requirements.

    3. As gently as I can tell you, a lot of that was incoherent, but you seem to be expressing that your “denied nothing” comment was not about salvation. Ok. If that’s the case. Super. I also do not agree that God will not deny anything.

    Respectfully and honestly, I doubt you’ve effectively studied scripture and how to objectively apply it.

    In any case, I pray for you in Christian love, Herm. Blessings.

    John 3:16
    John 14:6
    Romans 6:23

  • Herm

    Peace be upon you … amen

  • Very well said my friend!

  • To be more precise, the scripture doesn’t say we’ll be judged in the same ”way” but rather the original wording better translates ”in the same heart” it’s not WHAT you do to judge, it’s WHY and HOW you judge that God Himself will say ”Ok, you held other people to a standard that disregarded their brokenness, I will now use the same heart and measurement on you.” (the natural conclusion of course being that NOBODY can survive their own standard of judgement, thus God’s GRACE becomes our only refuge)…

  • Hey Benjamin, I suspect that fellow Gen-X seminary grads like you & I come from a similar place on most issues of organizational faith…

    I am curious however, because I have close friends who work with various organizations (one of them being WV) here in Canada, and they don’t quite work the way that is implied in your article. When we ”support” a child here those funds go to WV as an organizational holding fund, to which is then dispersed to the child (children) that are indicated (your support helps, but is not solely responsible) for the financial well-being of that one child. Is it different in the USA then?

    I hope you see the huge gap in perception that would create if people were then under the impression that specific children were being abandoned by specific sponsors?

  • Javier

    And to you too. God bless you.

  • Javier

    Your first question is an excellent one. I must say…I don’t know. I think that perhaps he would look at it from another angle you or I have not considered….making us both humble. Also, your question is not an attack. I don’t think you are smearing me at all. And I did not attack you at all. I spoke the truth about many on here…not all. I did not generalize. Furthermore, I have never criticized your side’s position. I respect it.

    I hope you have a blessed Easter weekend.

  • Javier

    Psalm 22
    1 MY GOD, my God, why have You forsaken me? Why are You so far from helping me, and from the words of my groaning? [Matt. 27:46.]
    2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but You answer not; and by night I am not silent orfind no rest.
    3 But You are holy, O You Who dwell in [the holy place where] the praises of Israel [are offered].
    4 Our fathers trusted in You; they trusted (leaned on, relied on You, and were confident) and You delivered them.
    5 They cried to You and were delivered; they trusted in, leaned on, andconfidently relied on You, and were not ashamed orconfounded ordisappointed.
    6 But I am a worm, and no man; I am the scorn of men, and despised by the people. [Matt. 27:39-44.]
    7 All who see me laugh at me andmock me; they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, [Matt. 27:43.]
    8 He trusted androlled himself on the Lord, that He would deliver him. Let Him deliver him, seeing that He delights in him! [Matt. 27:39, 43; Mark 15:29, 30; Luke 23:35.]
    9 Yet You are He Who took me out of the womb; You made me hope andtrust when I was on my mother’s breasts.
    10 I was cast upon You from my very birth; from my mother’s womb You have been my God.
    11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near and there is none to help.
    12Many [foes like] bulls have surrounded me; strong bulls of Bashan have hedged me in. [Ezek. 39:18.]
    13 Against me they opened their mouths wide, like a ravening and roaring lion.
    14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart is like wax; it is softened [with anguish] andmelted down within me.
    15 My strength is dried up like a fragment of clay pottery; [with thirst] my tongue cleaves to my jaws; and You have brought me into the dust of death. [John 19:28.]
    16 For [like a pack of] dogs they have encompassed me; a company of evildoers has encircled me, they pierced my hands and my feet. [Isa. 53:7; John 19:37.]
    17 I can count all my bones; [the evildoers] gaze at me. [Luke 23:27, 35.]
    18 They part my clothing among them and cast lots for my raiment (a long, shirtlike garment, a seamless undertunic). [John 19:23, 24.])
    19 But be not far from me, O Lord; O my Help, hasten to aid me!
    20 Deliver my life from the sword, my dear life [my only one] from the power of the dog [the agent of execution].
    21 Save me from the lion’s mouth; for You have answered me [kindly] from the horns of the wild oxen.
    22 I will declare Your name to my brethren; in the midst of the congregation will I praise You. [John 20:17; Rom. 8:29; Heb. 2:12.]
    23 You who fear (revere and worship) the Lord, praise Him! All you offspring of Jacob, glorify Him. Fear (revere and worship) Him, all you offspring of Israel.
    24 For He has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither has He hidden His face from him, but when he cried to Him, He heard.
    25 My praise shall be of You in the great congregation. I will pay to Him my vows [made in the time of trouble] before them who fear (revere and worship) Him.
    26 The poor andafflicted shall eat and be satisfied; they shall praise the Lord–they who [diligently] seek for, inquire of andfor Him, andrequire Him [as their greatest need]. May your hearts be quickened now andforever!
    27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations shall bow down andworship before You,
    28 For the kingship andthe kingdom are the Lord’s, and He is the ruler over the nations.
    29 All the mighty ones upon earth shall eat [in thanksgiving] and worship; all they that go down to the dust shall bow before Him, even he who cannot keep himself alive.
    30Posterity shall serve Him; they shall tell of the Lord to the next generation.
    31 They shall come and shall declare His righteousness to a people yet to be born–that He has done it [that it is finished]! [John 19:30.]

  • Javier

    Have a blessed Easter weekend, everyone.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLDGVl8D5UU&spfreload=10

  • I’m not talking merely of provisions- I’m talking about relationships they thrive on that just ended without warning or transition. These are real kids.

  • Noah

    Fair enough, you also!

    That 3rd way….definitely need to think on that more.

  • Javier

    Let us all pause for Good Friday with Jesus’ words on the cross. Look forward to Easter Sunday.

  • 22044

    Of course…but that doesn’t address the point I made.

    Your only legitimate call, if you want it: World Vision’s decisions to initally offer employment to people in “same sex marriages” and then hastily reverse that policy. But now World Vision needs to replace its sponsors and perhaps that idea should be supported. But that’s a tough place to be, Benjamin. Wouldn’t it be better to just stick to advocating for the children instead of judging people you don’t know?

  • Eris, elder daughter of Nyx

    All I have to say about this is that I have trouble trusting Christians after this debacle. Given that this is how I feel, I can only imagine how the children who have been abandoned must feel. How can anyone ever ask them to trust Christians, Christianity, or Christ after this? After we said to them, “It is more important to us that homosexuals in same-sex relationships not have jobs* than that you have a roof over your head, clothes on your back, and food on your table.”

    It makes me ashamed to the core as a human being.

    *And I’m sure that someone here can point me at where Jesus commands us to make sure that unrepentant sinners** can’t support themselves (you know, feed themselves, clothe themselves, house themselves, etc) through honest labor. Right? Right?

    **Assuming you believe that homosexuality is a sin.

  • halfariver

    Loving people is not anti-Christ. Heterosexuality is not the cornerstone of Christianity. It’s the cornerstone of conservatives who do not want to disrupt their lives and what they are accustomed to. There are TONS of sins listed in the Bible, but none as obsessed over by “Christians” as homosexuality. Your erection really determines your salvation? If Christ didn’t come to condemn, then why are we as his followers so focused on it? To the point of withdrawing support for children? That’s incomprehensible. There is so much of the Bible you and your ilk ignore. I hardly hear conservative Christians talking about the rich man and the eye of the needle. I rarely if ever hear about the beatitudes. It’s mostly anger, condemnation and vengeance. And we use Christ’s name to justify it when it’s as far from Jesus as we can get. He desires mercy, but we refuse to offer it unless it is palatable. Jesus would not be welcomed in a lot of Christian churches especially in this country. He’s too revolutionary even today. Love your enemies? Pray for those who persecute you? Turn the other cheek? Be meek? Seek peace? Give what you have to the poor? Serve the less fortunate? Put yourself last and others first? Blasphemous statements in the modern church. There are atheists who follow Christ better than many “Christians.” People who give of themselves to help others and love them. We’re too obsessed straining at gnats and choking we not only can’t do good, we are now refusing to do good. It’s like conservative Christians want to use the Old Testament against other people and the New Testament on themselves. Even then though they fall short of Jesus’ message. And don’t tell me about how Jesus overturned tables and rebuked people. Look back and see who received those rebukes. It was the religious authority and his followers. Sinners were treated with grace and compassion. We are by no means capable of changing people’s lives. We are terrible at that. We end up just trying to get them to be more like us. What we do is show them Christ’s love, and HE changes their lives. Whether it is to your satisfaction doesn’t matter. He doesn’t need your approval. Just love. Someone loves someone of the same sex. Fine. I’m required to love you and have compassion for you and welcome you to my house and feed you and let you know you have a friend. I’m ordered by the Almighty to do so. If I’m ordered to love enemies and people who persecute me, I’m sure as heck required to love someone who has a lifestyle alternate to mine. Gnats. Gnats. Gnats. Everywhere in the church. Are we really followers of Christ, or are we the modern pharisees?

  • Texas_lib

    Why does every single discussion involving Christians today have to revolve around gay marriage and abortion? When did the gender of a another person’s partner or the decision a person makes in the privacy of their doctor’s office become the business of anyone else especially Christians? Jesus told us not to be judgemental and warned us not concern ourselves with the guilt of others but to watch our OWN sinfulness. But the Christian community nowadays sounds like little more than a broken record obsessed with the personal lives and decisions of everyone else rather than cleaning up their own stuff. No wonder we are losing young people.

    I am sick to death of it. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

  • John A. C. Kelley

    It doesn’t matter who they hire and who they hire is none of your business. How many gluttons, liars, cheaters, sloths, etc. do you think work there? Why ignore the other sins in light of this supposed “sin”? How does their relationship mock God?

    You don’t see your own hypocrisy, do you?

    “I find it ironic that these ‘progressive’ Christians are nearly always pro-legalized abortions and would have cheered for the right to kill these children in the womb — or even partway out of it if you are a “Christian” Leftist*.”

    Well sir, I find it ironic that these ‘regressive’ Christians are nearly always anti-legalized abortions and would be perfectly fine with damning children to poverty and starvation, yet fought tooth and nail to save them from being aborted.

    It’s also hilarious how you generalize all Christian progressives and “Leftists”. I could make the same polar claims about the right that are unfounded and purposely exaggerated.

  • The “Christian” Left is proudly “progressive.”

    Stop projecting your greed onto real Christians. Studies show that by any measure — giving time, money or even blood donations — conservatives are more generous. They just don’t lobby Caesar to “give” your money and count it as a good deed on their part. See http://www.nationalreview.com/content/who-really-cares

    And thanks for conceding that you are a pro-abortion extremist like the “Christian” Left*

    I don’t think you understand the distinction with sloth, etc., and “same-sex marriage.” People may wrestle with sins, but those who are PROUD about them are in a special category. Using your logic, Christian organizations would have to employ proudly unrepentant adulterers.

    *The “Christian” Left is far more extreme in their pro-abortion agenda than the average pro-choice person. They insist that life begins at the first breath and insist that Jesus is fine with killing unwanted children until that point. I realize how ridiculous their views sound and how many people must think I’m making a straw-man argument. But that is just because their own words are so clear and extreme: “According to the bible, a fetus is not a living person with a soul until after drawing its first breath.” More here about how to respond, with full, in-context quotes from them: https://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2015/01/14/the-christian-left-is-far-more-extreme-than-the-average-pro-choice-person-2/

  • You beg the question by assuming that it is loving to encourage people to rebel against God. That is hate, not love. More accurately, it is loving yourself and your popularity because the truth will make you unpopular.

    Romans 1:18–20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

    Romans 1:26–27 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

  • Herm

    No question was begged but your command was received loud and clear. halfariver wrote nothing regarding encouraging anyone. If anything you were with great care admonished to love as does Jesus and not condemn merciful neighbors. Nothing in those scriptures says you have any call through scripture to judge what is purely in the purview of God to choose to give us up or invoke His wrath. How many abominable sinners would you guess Jesus came within shouting distance of during His three years of ministry on Earth? How many, beyond those making profit off of His Father’s house, have you a record of who He condemned to hell or encouraged their rebellion against Him? Just in full knowledge allowing himself to be available to be crucified by the supreme rebels against Him is the exact opposite of what you perceive is your call. You are not picking up the cross to be a disciple and are certainly not loving of the enemies you choose because they are detestable to you like merciful Samaritans.

  • John A. C. Kelley

    Funny, your first link was broken. I’m not surprised.

    I didn’t concede that I am anything. In fact, I am not pro-abortion, nor am I anti-abortion; I am merely pro-life whether the child is in the womb or not.

    Well, for one, homosexuality is not listed as a sin in scripture and if you believe it is, then I hope you don’t wear any modern clothing, eat anything that is not kosher, etc.

    I love how you are so conceited that you link to what I presume to be your own blog. Why don’t you try facts rather than opinions. I’ve never seen any Progressive Christian act in the way you describe. Mr. Corey is pretty progressive, why don’t you search for where he is so adamant on abortion being not only OK, but completely and totally necessary.

  • John A. C. Kelley

    Oh and I love how you say “real Christians” rather than just admitting that you think you have everything figured out and if other Christians don’t agree with you, then they aren’t actual Christians.

  • Herm

    Trick search!!!

    It sure seems to me when I read the New Testament objectively that Jesus’ life was pretty much aborted early for being objectionably progressive in the judgment of the church authorities of His time on Earth. Oh, to go back to the good old days before Christ! You know, when Mosaic Law was the law of the land and we knew exactly when a child took their first breath from God. I can’t blame Eternity Matters for holding on to the remnant of Mose’s Seat of authority.

    Thank you for taking on the adamant with such grace and love!

  • Hi John,

    It isn’t that they don’t agree with me, it is that they don’t agree with spectacularly clear teachings of the word of God.

    Real Christians don’t say, “Jesus is not my God” like Sandlin and the “Christian” Left do. His words, not mine. http://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2014/09/05/mark-sandlin-false-teacher/

    Real Christians don’t deny that Jesus is the only way to salvation — something the Bible teaches over 100 times. http://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2013/03/03/more-than-100/

    Real Christians don’t deny the physical resurrection. Sandlins’ words vs. the word of God.

    1 Corinthians 15:1–5 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

  • Ah, the clothing/ kosher food argument: That is full of holes but is appealing to many because so few bother to study the passages. I address six serious problems with it in flaws of the shellfish argument. The short version: There were different Hebrew words translated as abomination. They were used differently in the individual verses and were used very differently in broader contexts. The associated sins had radically different consequences and had 100% different treatments in the New Testament. And the claim that Christians are inconsistent if they say homosexual behavior is a sin if they don’t also avoid shellfish, mixed fibers, etc. would mean that they couldn’t complain about bestiality, child sacrifice, adultery, etc.

    The longer version: https://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2007/11/24/favorite-dish-of-liberal-theologians-skeptics-shellfish/

    “Why don’t you try facts rather than opinions. ”

    But that’s exactly what I do. I love appealing to facts, like the “minimal facts” argument: https://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2010/04/02/evidence-for-the-resurrection-2/

    Summary of the “minimal facts” approach: Nearly 100% of historical scholars from 1975 – present agree with the following statements:

    1. Jesus really lived and was killed on a Roman cross.

    2. Jesus’ disciples believed He appeared to them.

    3. Jesus’ brother, James, went from being a pre-crucifixion skeptic to a post-crucifixion church leader.

    4. The Apostle Paul believed Jesus appeared to him and he wrote most of the books attributed to him, including Romans, I & II Corinthians, Philemon and others. He converted from persecuting Christians to being the greatest evangelist ever, despite nearly constant challenges, persecution and ultimately dying for his faith.

    Also, 75% of the same scholars agree that the tomb was empty.

    None of the alternative theories can be true in light of these facts. The physical resurrection of Jesus best accounts for these facts.

  • Wow, you sure are judgmental. Do you read your hypocrisy before posting?

  • Herm

    It was proof read several times. I am only standing between you and the people you condemn. I am not condemning you. If you can show me where you are picking up your cross rather than using your perceived wrath of God to hang people on the cross I will relent. Other wise you are not a disciple of Jesus as you pose and according to Luke 14:26, 27.

  • Herm

    “And the claim that Christians are inconsistent if they say homosexual behavior is a sin if they don’t also avoid shellfish, mixed fibers, etc. would mean that they couldn’t complain about bestiality, child sacrifice, adultery, etc.”

    Eternity Matters, we as disciples of Christ cannot submit to child sacrifice, to adultery, to murder, to steal, to bear false witness against our neighbors, to covet, to manipulate others, to intimidate others, to confuse others, to usurp the authority of others, to pimp others, to enslave others and to subjugate others because all fall within Luke 10:27 and Matthew 7:12. Homosexuality between consenting adults, masturbation, sodomy between consenting adults, killing plants and/or animals to eat and clothe, victimless crimes and most of Mosaic law are not covered by Luke 10:27 and Matthew 7:12; no matter how detestable/abominable you, Paul, Moses or even God might find such acts. God knows the hearts and minds of all who are open to Them through the Holy Spirit. God is real and can warn those who care and who will change without our help. God can counsel without your or my intervention. Out of the love of empathy and compassion we can stand between the others and the bullies making god in their image. If eternity matters to you why is it that your heart and mind is so obsessively focused on the flesh of others, who are otherwise merciful to you as neighbors, and not focused in the Spirit where God is?

    There is one law written in stone by the hand of God that I consult with the Spirit of Truth continually as I am inspired to respond to others, “You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.” Exodus 20:7 (NRSV)

    I love you and do pray that you find your Way to inherit eternity according to Luke 10:25-37.

  • John A. C. Kelley

    Some more links to your opinionated blog? How about some facts rather than opinions to support your stance?

    It’s funny that you think they are such different words because Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary says they are synonymous. They may be different words, but they have the same meaning. What makes the abhorrent/detestable/abomination of eating shellfish, wearing mixed fabrics, eating birds, etc. OK and the abhorrent/detestable/abomination of homosexuality not? Double standards…

    There is also the fact that no other place in scripture relates to homosexuality being sin. Sin is defined in 1 John 3 as breaking God’s commandment and according to the 23rd verse of the same book and chapter, God’s commandment is to love God, love your neighbor, and believe in the name of Christ.

  • John A. C. Kelley

    Haha OK, I’ll bite.

    1. What is the Word of God? It is Jesus, not a book; see John 1.

    2. Sandlin is not the spokesperson for the Christian Left and I guarantee you that Mr. Corey along with many of his followers affirm the deity of Christ as I do as well.

    3. You just can’t get over your own blog, can you?

    4. That depends on what you believe salvation is.

    5. Again with the blog?

    6. You’re really hung up on Sandlin, aren’t you? Sandlin doesn’t represent me or my views. I have my agreements and disagreements with him. Why don’t you stop generalizing everyone and actually find out what they believe. You do nothing but make yourself look EXTREMELY foolish by assuming everyone is the same.

    7. Congratulations, you not only can read, but you can copy and paste as well. It would surprise you that Paul’s church is credited as being at least moderately universalistic in nature.

  • “1. What is the Word of God? It is Jesus, not a book; see John 1.”

    Double fail. Yes, it is He, and He validated all the OT and the NT is the revelation about him. But the “Christian” Left disobeys and mocks both.

    Oh, and if you actually read the book you’ll find the phrase “word of the Lord” in there a “few” times — specifically 276 times in the ESV covering many more verses than that, and literally thousand of other verses prefaced by similar phrases.

    “2. Sandlin is not the spokesperson for the Christian Left and I guarantee you that Mr. Corey along with many of his followers affirm the deity of Christ as I do as well.”

    Tell that to his “Christian” Left FB page people.

    I’m glad others affirm the deity of Jesus. I’m surprised they don’t refute fakes like Sandlin, Chuck Currie, etc.

    “3. You just can’t get over your own blog, can you?”

    Haha. Just providing references to quality information ;-). It isn’t like I do this for profit.

    “4. That depends on what you believe salvation is.”

    Uh, having your sins forgiven, eternal life with your Lord and Savior, etc.

    “5. Again with the blog?”

    Yawn. Petty much?

    “6. You’re really hung up on Sandlin, aren’t you? Sandlin doesn’t represent me or my views. I have my agreements and disagreements with him. Why don’t you stop generalizing everyone and actually find out what they believe. You do nothing but make yourself look EXTREMELY foolish by assuming everyone is the same.”

    I’ve followed the “Christian” Left for a very long time. I was raised in the Disciples of Christ and then went there as an adult for 10 years before becoming a believer. Then I went to a conservative Methodist church but left after they wouldn’t get rid of a false teaching “Christian” Left pastor. And I’ve followed it closely on Interwebs. Make no mistake: I know they aren’t completely monolithic, but I have a very good grasp of their standard theology.

    If you disagree with them, then yea for you!

    “7. Congratulations, you not only can read, but you can copy and paste as well. It would surprise you that Paul’s church is credited as being at least moderately universalistic in nature.”

    I have no idea what you were trying to say there, but Christianity is not universalistic.

  • “Some more links to your opinionated blog? How about some facts rather than opinions to support your stance?”

    Such bad reasoning. Calling my facts opinions changes nothing. It just shows you have petty insults and not arguments.

    “They may be different words, but they have the same meaning. What makes the abhorrent/detestable/abomination of eating shellfish, wearing mixed fabrics, eating birds, etc. OK and the abhorrent/detestable/abomination of homosexuality not? Double standards…”

    Hahaha! Thanks for conceding that they are DIFFERENT WORDS. Which was my point. And if you kept reading the post I actually addressed your point. There is no double standard. They were both bad things, as I said, but one was clearly a Israelite-specific ceremonial thing and one was a universal rule (otherwise why would He hold the Canaanites accountable for violating the latter?).

    “There is also the fact that no other place in scripture relates to homosexuality being sin. Sin is defined in 1 John 3 as breaking God’s commandment and according to the 23rd verse of the same book and chapter, God’s commandment is to love God, love your neighbor, and believe in the name of Christ.”

    Ugh. The Bible couldn’t be more clear. Bible-believing Christians and even two out of the three types of pro-gay people* (religious or not) can see these truths:

    – 100% of the verses addressing homosexual behavior describe it as sin in the clearest and strongest possible terms.

    – 100% of the verses referring to God’s ideal for marriage involve one man and one woman.

    – 100% of the verses referencing parenting involve moms and dads with unique roles (or at least a set of male and female parents guiding the children).

    – 0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to homosexual behavior in a positive or even benign way or even hint at the acceptability of homosexual unions of any kind. There are no exceptions for “committed” relationships.

    – 0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to LGBT couples parenting children.

    Having said that, I believe that Christians should support and encourage those who are fighting same-sex attraction. And no one needs to grandstand on the issue before getting to the Good News of the cross: http://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/evangelism-experiences-1/ .

    If you love your neighbor you won’t encourage them in sin.

    Romans 1:18–20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

    Romans 1:26–27 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

    * The three general types of pro-gay theology people:

    1. “The Bible says homosexuality is wrong but it isn’t the word of God.” (Obviously non-Christians)

    2. “The Bible says it is wrong but God changed his mind and is only telling the theological Left.” (Only about 10 things wrong with that.)

    3. “The Bible is the word of God but you are just misunderstanding it” (Uh, no, not really.)

  • Wow, you pick two verses that don’t specifically mention the sin in question and you think that proves your point?

    http://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2013/03/17/problems-with-pro-gay-theology-2/ The Bible couldn’t be more clear. Bible-believing Christians and even two out of the three types of pro-gay people* (religious or not) can see these truths:

    – 100% of the verses addressing homosexual behavior describe it as sin in the clearest and strongest possible terms.

    – 100% of the verses referring to God’s ideal for marriage involve one man and one woman.

    – 100% of the verses referencing parenting involve moms and dads with unique roles (or at least a set of male and female parents guiding the children).

    – 0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to homosexual behavior in a positive or even benign way or even hint at the acceptability of homosexual unions of any kind. There are no exceptions for “committed” relationships.

    – 0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to LGBT couples parenting children.

    Having said that, I believe that Christians should support and encourage those who are fighting same-sex attraction. And no one needs to grandstand on the issue before getting to the Good News of the cross: http://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/evangelism-experiences-1/ .

    * The three general types of pro-gay theology people:

    1. “The Bible says homosexuality is wrong but it isn’t the word of God.” (Obviously non-Christians)

    2. “The Bible says it is wrong but God changed his mind and is only telling the theological Left.” (Only about 10 things wrong with that.)

    3. “The Bible is the word of God but you are just misunderstanding it” (Uh, no, not really.)

  • Hahaha! You are so judgmental in saying I’m not a Christian, yet I hold all 31,173 verses to be the word of God and the “Christian” Left mocks them.

  • Herm

    Jesus is the only Word, the only Truth, the only Way, the only I am. Jesus and our Father has made the Spirit of Truth available for us to be one in heart and mind with Jesus as our only Rabbi. The Bible is sacred scripture with inspired testaments pointing to God.

  • Herm

    Are you kidding, where did I say you were not a Christian? You can be a member of the Christian church, profess Christ Jesus as Lord and risen Savior and be a dedicated disciple of the scripture but that does not make you a disciple of Jesus. When Jesus becomes your only Rabbi as His student and the only Word of God then you are a disciple of the MESSIAH. You can be a student of the Bible and not a student (disciple) of Jesus. You show me where it is written in the Bible that Jesus said to condemn Homosexuals, please.

    “”But all this has taken place, so that the scriptures of the prophets may be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples deserted him and fled.” Matthew 26:56 (NRSV)

    “In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets.” Matthew 7:12 (NRSV)

    “You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that testify on my behalf. Yet you refuse to come to me to have life. I do not accept glory from human beings. But I know that you do not have the love of God in you.” John 5:39-42 (NRSV)

    I will never mock those verses. I am not mocking you. Just give it up to God, please, please, please.

  • You repeatedly say I need to be in the spirit, give it up to God, etc., as if refuting bad “Christian” Left reasoning means I haven’t done that.

  • John A. C. Kelley

    1. Actually Jesus corrected the OT often and the NT is about Him. Writing a biography about someone doesn’t make it their word. The Bible is merely a book about a group of people coming to know who God is and what that means. The OT is discovering God and is completed with Christ’s perfect revelation of who God is. The NT is about what we do with this information of who God truly is.

    2. So because someone creates a page for something, that means they represent them? I’ll just create a Facebook page for your blog and start posting the exact opposite of what your blog does and say that my Facebook page is the true representation of your blog.

    3. “Quality” “Information”. Of course you think so, it’s your opinion.

    4. According to scripture God’s forgiveness, grace, and mercy are free and new every morning. They are unconditional, meaning it doesn’t matter what we do. Scripture says that ALL sins HAVE been forgiven, not that SOME sins WILL BE forgiven.

    5. Glad to see you know how to use credible sources to back up your opinions… Oh wait…

    6. Not really. You continue to fail to realize that all people are different.

    7. Read some history about the early church… I’m well versed in this as I am studying Philosophy. Plato, Socrates, and Paul go hand in hand.

  • “1. Actually Jesus corrected the OT often and the NT is about Him. Writing a biography about someone doesn’t make it their word. The Bible is merely a book about a group of people coming to know who God is and what that means. The OT is discovering God and is completed with Christ’s perfect revelation of who God is. The NT is about what we do with this information of who God truly is.”
    Now that is a bunch of made-up opinions. Jesus didn’t correct the OT, He fulfilled it! The rest of your comment was full of the same type of errors. All the best to you. When you are done making a god in your image read the word of God for what it really is.

  • John A. C. Kelley

    Calling your opinions facts doesn’t change what they are. Stating that they are opinions is not insulting, but is merely speaking the truth.

    The entire book of Leviticus was geared towards separating Israel from the Canaanites, not just certain sections… Nice try though.

    Anyone who thinks the Bible is clear on anything hasn’t read it enough. It is a book full of mystery, language barriers, and confusion.

    100%? Haha what is that? The two verses in Leviticus in which bacon, shellfish, mixed fabric, etc. is mentioned? Leviticus in which the exact translation is a man shall not lay with a man in a woman’s bed, not homosexuality. This fits the surrounding context of what is and is not allowed in a woman’s bed.

    100% of the Bible’s verses on marriage involve one man and one woman? Try one man and multiple women, concubines, incest, etc.

    If you actually knew your Greek, then you would know that the words incorrectly translated in Romans and 1 Corinthians speak of man on boy pedophile prostitution, not homosexuality.

    The other Romans verse about going against one’s nature implies that there is a nature. Homosexuality is found in nearly every species within nature; therefore, for a straight person to lay with someone of the same sex or for a homosexual to lay with someone of the opposite sex, both are going against their nature or doing what is unnatural.

    1. The Bible does not say homosexuality is wrong and is not the Word of God. (Obviously educated)

    2. The Bible does not say homosexuality is wrong and fundamentalists and traditionalists read their biases into the text. (Obviously educated)

    3. The Bible is not the Word of God and you only think so because your Christian leaders have lied to you. (Obviously educated)

  • “Calling your opinions facts doesn’t change what they are. Stating that they are opinions is not insulting, but is merely speaking the truth.”
    “The entire book of Leviticus was geared towards separating Israel from the Canaanites, not just certain sections… Nice try though.”
    Right, because God was holding them accountable for not eating Kosher food. Really, folks, read Leviticus 18 and don’t rely on the “Christian” Left.

    “100%? Haha what is that?”

    Leviticus 18, Romans 1, and more (but you’ve read the Bible, right?)

    It only mentions bestiality a couple times. Is that enough for you, or do you claim that you can have sex with animals as well? How many times does God have to say it before you believe it?
    “100% of the Bible’s verses on marriage involve one man and one woman? Try one man and multiple women, concubines, incest, etc.”
    Wow, you are a bad fake even for the “Christian” Left. Did you think no one would notice that you deliberately misquoted me? Funny how you left the words “God’s ideal” out!! “100% of the verses referring to God’s ideal for marriage involve one man and one woman.”
    Yes, the Bible records all sorts of acts that defy God’s ideal. Note how Jesus defeats Darwinian evolution, oxymoronic “same-sex marriage” and same-sex parenting arguments in one simple passage. No true follower of him should disagree on any of those topics.
    Matthew 19:4–5 He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?”
    Jesus is still asking them that question today, and the answer from the “Christian” Left is, “No, we haven’t read that” — or, rather, “We read that but didn’t like it so we ‘know’ you didn’t really say that.”
    “If you actually knew your Greek, then you would know that the words incorrectly translated in Romans and 1 Corinthians speak of man on boy pedophile prostitution, not homosexuality.”
    Hahahaha! No, if you really knew your Greek you’d know that was a lie some “Christian” Leftist dreamed up. The words are spectacularly clear in referring to the natural function of men and women. It even says “men” and “men.”

    Romans 1:26–27 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

    So we’ve established that you either lying or wildly misinformed.

    “The other Romans verse about going against one’s nature implies that there is a nature. . . . ; therefore, for a straight person to lay with someone of the same sex or for a homosexual to lay with someone of the opposite sex, both are going against their nature or doing what is unnatural.”
    No, it refers to the natural function. Using your silly argument the only sin would be going against your natural desire. But that would mean that Paul’s “exhibit A” example to support v. 18-20 would apply to exactly NO ONE. The straights would say they had the desire to have sex with the opposite sex, the gays with the same sex and the bi’s with both. Therefore, they’d tell God they hadn’t “really” sinned. That is laughably bad pro-gay apologetics.
    “Homosexuality is found in nearly every species within nature”

    Animals do all sorts of things: Eat their young, murder other members of the same species, eat their poop, hump your leg, etc. Hopefully you don’t appeal to those facts to justify all your behaviors. While our public schools use homosexual penguins to advance their perverted agenda, hopefully they won’t start encouraging the necrophilia, rape and more. http://moonbattery.com/?p=52614

    “1. The Bible does not say homosexuality is wrong and is not the Word of God. (Obviously educated)”
    Romans 1:26–27 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
    You have shown yourself to be not only wildly misinformed but extremely dishonest. Really, pretending to quote me but leaving out “God’s ideal?” That’s pathetic. Pretending that the Greek words refer to pederasty? How sad.

    You can have the last word, which I’ll ignore because it is Matthew 7:6 time.

  • Herm

    In everything “Eternity Matters” do to “Christian Left” as you would have “Christian Left” do to you; for this is the law and the prophets.

  • I do that, so you can stop judging. I tell the truth about them because I want them to tell the truth about me. I share the real Gospel with them because if I was taken in by false teachers like they have been I’d want someone to tell me. And so on.

  • John A. C. Kelley

    The sermon on the mount was just Jesus quoting and correcting scripture… Also, there is absolutely no reason to call scripture the Word of God. If I have errors, then present them, but prove them to be errors, don’t just give your pompous attitude. God is not in my image. I used to think just like you, but then I sat down and actually read the Bible instead of letting other people do it for me.

  • John A. C. Kelley

    It actually doesn’t mention it. Why don’t you take a Greek class? Furthermore, what scriptures qualify as God’s ideal and what do not? Pick and choose much?

    Jesus defeats evolution? You don’t even know what evolution is and even if what you said is true, it is still wrong because God could have created everything through the evolutionary process. Saying that a man and woman will leave their parents and get married hardly constitutes as an argument against same-sex marriages. I could say that those without parents can’t get married because they had no one to leave. That is just as ridiculous as using such arguments to vilify homosexuality.

    No, we say that we interpret the passage differently and that people who interpret it as you do read your views into the passage.

    You’re serious aren’t you? The word is arsenokoites and if you actually knew what you were talking about, then you would know that this Greek word is used less than 100 times out of all of the Greek literature we have and in every piece of literature except for some translations of the Bible, it is translated as “male prostitute” or “male on male pedophilia”. The Greek word for homosexual was androkoites, not arsenokoites. Only recently has arsenokoites come to mean homosexuality. Even Martin Luther used arsenokoites to mean a man who sexually abuses a boy.

    Actually, if you were informed in the History of Biblical cultures, then you would know that the people of those times would stop having sex with the opposite sex and brutalize members of the same sex in rapes and gang-rapes alike to prove dominance over those people. This especially happened to immigrants.

    What is natural would relate to what is found in nature. if you would like to contest that, then feel free to. Thus far, you are just swinging at the air trying to grasp some sort of argument by listing other things that are natural.

    You still have not provided any argument as to how the Bible is the Word of God and you still have yet to do anymore than repeat your flawed English translations of scripture.

    Are you really going to throw a tantrum over me leaving out “God’s Ideal”. I wouldn’t have left it out if you could actually explain how you know which scriptures constitute as “God’s Ideal” and which don’t.

    Matthew 7:6 is referring to prayer and you are a gentile as well.

  • mintap

    Deconstructionism abandons children. Recognizing and attempting to stop deconstructionism is not the culprit here.

  • Rick Smith

    The Word of God is CRYSTAL CLEAR regarding homosexual behavior.
    God calls it what it is, an ABOMINATION that will send those who practice
    that behavior straight to hell!
    Today’s depraved society may embrace perversion, but TRUE CHRISTIANS
    CANNOT. If ANY Christian “church”, or organization departs from the clear
    teaching of the Word of God, they have departed from the faith, and as such
    are apostate, and Christians should exit, A.S.A.P.
    No ifs, ands or buts about it.
    Jesus Christ Himself tells us what is to become of the ABOMINABLE, in
    REVELATION 21:8, and their end is the Lake of Fire.
    If you embrace or condone their sins, you are partakers of their sins, and
    you can be certain that you will join them for all eternity.

  • Seth Silvers

    Good article. Wondering how you arrived at your numbers of 6.6MM lost. If you had 19,000 paying $35 a month wouldn’t it be 7.9MM and 79.8MM over 10 years? Either way. Huge loss for World Vision

  • MZ13

    And how do you know those sponsorships did not end being new sponsorships with someone else?

  • Caring Canine Admin 2

    Oh, I forgot, when u are a Christian, u are always right, u cannot be wrong. You know as much as, if not more than, God even though the Bible says the opposite. Christians’ thoughts are not my thoughts. Christians can always justify everything. How dare u question the author’s math! Let the first one who has never made a mistake in math cast the first stone. Why are u picking the small mistake in ur brother’s math when u urself cannot prove the NP complete theory?!