You Can’t Be Pro-Life and Support the Mass-Deportation of Immigrants

You Can’t Be Pro-Life and Support the Mass-Deportation of Immigrants January 22, 2016

Screenshot 2016-01-22 11.07.56Every election cycle I find myself shocked at some of the core beliefs and suggested policies that are pushed forward by candidates who claim to be “pro-life.” At this point I probably shouldn’t be, but it is hard for me to let go of the hope that pro-life might actually mean “pro-life” one day.

Perhaps one of the more heinous anti-life ideologies being floated this cycle is the blanket, mass deportation of undocumented immigrants. It’s not enough to build a giant wall to keep them out; what many want is to get rid of all the ones who are here– without exception.

Such is the position of Ted Cruz. Cruz’s anti-life views were recently demonstrated in full force when an undocumented immigrant tried to dialogue with him regarding his anti-immigrant views.

30-year-old Ofelia Valdez was brought to the United States as a child, and has grown up here. The United States is her home– the only home she knows. She’s now a young woman and works for a non-profit that helps children with disabilities.

Valdez, and many just like her, have been allowed to remain in the United States under the 2012 Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program, which recognizes that children who were brought here illegally should not be torn from the only country they know. DACA is both an act of mercy and an act of common sense– to tear someone from their family and community and deport them to a country they may not even remember is the hight of cruelty. Nothing about that makes America great.

Yet, this is the position Cruz holds. On one hand, it’s somewhat easy to hold to positions that unnecessarily harm divine image bearers of the Living God. However, when we look those we’re harming in the face, many soften with the realization that these are real people we’re hurting.

Sadly, this isn’t the case for Cruz. During a visit to her workplace Valdez asked Cruz about people like herself– hard working Americans who were brought here illegally as children:

“I’m worried about whoever comes next to the presidency and what’s going to happen to people like us. I think of myself as a part of this community and you know, first day of presidency, you decide to deport, you know, people like myself, you know, it’s just very difficult.”

You can see a video of the exchange, here:

Cruz’s response? “There are consequences for breaking the law. And that is part of what makes America the nation that we are.”

It’s as if Cruz said, “Tough luck, kid. I don’t care that you came here as a child, that this is the only home you know, or that you’re making the world a better place by serving children with disabilities. On day one of my presidency, you’re headed back to wherever you came from. Sure, it’s a tragedy, but that’s what happens when your parents break the law.”

For one such as Cruz who runs on what seems to be a staunch pro-life platform, claiming to believe in the “sanctity of all life,” these anti-immigrant views fly in the face of what it means to actually and truly believe that all life has sacred worth.

Such views are inconsistent with charity, mercy, and all the virtues which make the world a little less broken and a little more right.

When we deport people like Valdez, we tear someone from their friends, their families, and their communities, creating an unnecessary wake of destruction that does nothing to make the world or the country a better place.

To truly call one’s self pro-life, one cannot support heartless policies that destroy innocent lives and rip families apart. Deporting DACA recipients does not affirm that all life has infinite worth and value; on the contrary, it says that some lives are worth being destroyed simply to assuage the general fear of immigrants so prevalent in the hearts of many Americans.

At the core of what it should mean to be pro-life is the conviction that all life is sacred. But for those like Cruz who support the mass deportation of our undocumented brothers and sisters?

Life isn’t sacred at all.

If one wants to support the mass-deportation of all undocumented immigrants regardless of whether or not they came here as children, and regardless of whether or not they are productive, law-abiding members of society, fine– one is free to believe and think whatever they want to believe or think.

But let’s not pretend that such views are consistent with a pro-life ethic. They’re not.

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  • Nixon is Lord

    Suppose you support abortion, including tax-money sponsored abortion, up to and including the third trimester? Do you get to think that allowing people to simply dump their country’s surplus populations here is a good idea for the foreseeable future? Nobody sees a problem with this and the environment-do you want a US with a population of over 400 million within thirty years?

  • I’m thinking that anti-immigrant pro-lifers aren’t pro-life so much as they are anti-death. Cruz’s supporters want the immigrants gone (should have started with him IMO) but likely see mass deportation as a “pro-life” alternative to ethnic cleansing. Once the deported are where they’re “supposed ” to be, they’re just no longer America’s problem.
    I wish these “pro-life” folks would just cut the duplicity and say that Jesus doesn’t really matter to them.

  • Herm

    Senator Cruz by his record is one who brilliantly interprets the law as long as it fits his agenda, this according to one of his law professors. Senator Cruz and Mr. Trump have attracted a huge following of our citizens who also make the law fit to their agenda in complete disregard for what is best for the entirety of mankind, our single common species whose spirit is in the image of God.

    The dominant agenda for most in the USA, especially “Christians”, seems to be what is most secure and comfortable for me and mine in this moment in time. For “those people” it is only lip service when speaking respectfully for the sacrificial insecurity and discomfort of our military personnel and what their ancestors went through that their life could be as comfortable and secure as it is today. Those people are easily swayed out of fear to defend their “surely deserved” comforts from being be stolen by those other people God didn’t bless with born citizenship.

    The way I understand Jesus’ teaching the sanctity of our temporal carnal life isn’t founded on security or comfort. The sanctity of our eternal spiritual life is dependent upon the concerned willingness to sacrifice our carnal securities and comforts for all in the image of our creator God.

    As a disciple of the Messiah, I just don’t get the option of brilliantly interpreting the law of the Lord my God to suit my exclusive agenda for the security and comfort of me and mine before all others.

  • Chad

    “Do you want a US with a population …”
    People born in other countries don’t have the ability to say “I don’t want a country like that” because it’s just their reality. War, oppression, poverty. We however have choices to make – so that makes us responsible to make choices that benefit those who don’t.

  • Repatriation is not punishment, it is restitution.
    It’s like telling a bank robber that he can walk free if he returns the money he stole.
    If someone’s life is disrupted by repatriation because they were brought here illegally when they were a child, the parents are to blame and that is where the anger should be directed.
    With any luck, those who are returned to their home countries will take what they’ve learned of America and use that knowledge to improve the lives of people in their home countries.

  • liberalinlove

    It isn’t our law-abiding citizens that make this a great country. Anything great about our country has had to do with those who work towards a just society which celebrates the dignity for all. We know that law-abiding slave holders, or child labor employers, did not give us a better, more “Christian” country. Cruz is like that servant in the bible, offered so much in grace and mercy, yet failing to return those gifts to whom he should show mercy.
    What is it that God requires of you, Ted?

    He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does
    the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk
    humbly with your God? Micah 6:8

  • CroneEver

    Repatriation is indeed punishment to the person who was brought here as a child. Sent “back” to a country they never knew, a country where they do not know the customs, the geography, perhaps even the language, with no friends, no workmates, perhaps no family any more, and told to start up a new life on nothing but whatever they have in their pocket. IF they’re allowed to take anything with them. After all, if they’re illegal, then they don’t legally own anything do they? So the next obvious step is to send them away with nothing, so they can starve somewhere else. But it’s not our problem, because it was their parents who brought them here illegally? It’s not punishment? Bull. It’s hideous, cruel punishment. To take away everything someone has ever known, and say, “Tough, kid. You’re on your own.” That’s a great way to add to the roster of people who hate America, which talks God, Jesus, and love, and practices greed, hate, and fear.

  • liberalinlove

    And it isn’t even economically bright. Those people are also consumers who drive our economic health. They pay taxes, they provide services, they add to community. The whole conversation makes me realize that black and white thinking is very similar, or common to the Pharisee of the bible. The letter of the law without the spirit of the law was always used.
    Very sad.

  • CroneEver

    I disagree with you 100%. Repatriation is a nice word for being dumped in a strange country, without any support system, any resources, not even (in some cases) the language, and being told, “Blame your parents, kid!” With any luck, those who are so returned to their “home countries” (which they have never known) will have enough charity not to hate America and everything it stands for.

  • CroneEver

    Our only hope is that, if repatriation happens (and I will do all I can to make sure it does not happen), the people so repatriated will have more charity than we do, and will not preach hatred of America to everyone they meet.

  • liberalinlove

    Can you find ANY examples in the bible where repatriation was used as a form of justice?

  • Did you have a problem when Bernie Madoff”s family (kids included) had to give up all the money brought in by Bernie’s ponzi scheme?
    One of them was so distraught that he committed suicide.
    Bernie illegally used the resources of his clients for self-enrichment. Illegal aliens illegally use the resources of America for self-enrichment.
    There is no fundamental difference between the two.

  • Herm

    Bernie’s kids were not repatriated or exiled to a very foreign country for the crimes of their parent. You are fundamentally wrong.

  • What’s Ted Cruz’s middle name? I’m wondering if it comes out to be an anagram for Judge Dredd.

    It’s weird how consequences for breaking the law is what makes America great, but our national anthem and various pro-America folk songs don’t mention it.

  • If there’s no fundamental difference between the two I’ll assume you support the deportation of all white people out of America? After all, we came here without permission, and used the resources of this land for self-enrichment instead of respecting the wishes of those who originally lived here.

    Just want to make sure you’re willing to apply your own logic.

  • Herm

    … “instead of respecting the wishes of those who originally lived here” and their laws.

  • Herm

    Senator Rafael Edward Cruz

  • In most cases those who are repatriated will have family in the home country and, since the parents should be repatriated as well, they should have an immediate support group.

    It is up to the home country to provide for their own citizens.
    Also, since the repatriated kids will have the benefit of an American education, they will be in a much better position to make a living than they would be otherwise. They should thrive in their new environment.
    If they miss American food, they can find more recipes than they can count on the internet. They can use Skype to communicate with their American friends in the same way that their parents used Skype to talk to the people in the home country.

    Mexico, El Salvador, and the other countries south of the border all have places where it is safe to live, just as America has places that are as dangerous as the worst places in those countries.
    These people are not victims, they are recipients of benefits they should never have received. Most of those benefits can’t be taken away by relocating them to their home countries.

  • Rafael Edward Cruz

    Law Czar Defrauder

  • I love it when godless Liberals bring up the bible when they think it will help them! But if you want a quote that has to do with trespassing on foreign land…
    “Moses sent messengers from Kadesh to the king of Edom: ‘Thus says your
    brother Israel … here we are in Kadesh, a city on the edge of your
    territory. Please let us pass through your land. We will not pass
    through field or vineyard, or drink water from a well. We will go along
    the King’s Highway. We will not turn aside to the right hand or to the
    left until we have passed through your territory.’ But Edom said to him,
    ‘You shall not pass through, lest I come out with the sword against
    you.’ And the people of Israel said to him, ‘We will go up by the
    highway, and if we drink of your water, I and my livestock, then I will
    pay for it. Let me only pass through on foot, nothing more.’ But he
    said, ‘You shall not pass through.’ And Edom came out against them with a
    large army and with a strong force. Thus Edom refused to give Israel
    passage through his territory, so Israel turned away from him.”

    See? The Jews respected the territorial rights of other nations.
    Why is it too much to require the same today?

  • yes!

  • Reincarnation

    I admire your thinking. You are correct with your assessment as usual.

  • Herm

    You really live in a bubble devoid of compassion. You either haven’t been abroad or you have ignored the unique cultures throughout the world. If you were empathetic and in everything did to others as you would have others do to you you would know how calloused your heart and mind sound to others.

    You wrote, “These people are not victims, they are recipients of benefits they should never have received.” If you are Native American, pre-Pilgrims, you might have some right to say that. If you are not then you too are a recipient of benefits you should never have received.

  • liberalinlove

    I stopped reading at Godless liberals. Born-again, daughter of an Assembly of God minister, who has come to the conclusion that all who call themselves followers are not. We are known by our fruit. You have set yourself up to judge the Word of God. May God have mercy on you.
    Deuteronomy 10:18-19
    He executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and shows His love for the alien (those without legal rights)
    by giving him food and clothing. 19″So
    show your love for the alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt. 20″You shall fear the LORD your God; you shall serve Him and cling to Him, and you shall swear by His name.…
    Exodus
    22:21
    “Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt.
    Leviticus
    19:34
    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them
    as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.
    Deuteronomy
    23:7
    Do not despise an Edomite, for the Edomites are related to you. Do not despise an Egyptian, because you resided as foreigners in their country.
    Ezekiel
    47:22
    You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners residing among you and who have children. You are to consider them as
    native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance
    among the tribes of Israel.
    Ezekiel
    47:23
    In whatever tribe a foreigner resides, there you are to give them their inheritance,” declares the Sovereign LORD.
    Love you therefore the stranger: for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.
    Exodus 22:21 You shall neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for you were strangers …
    Leviticus 19:33,34 And if a stranger sojourn with you in
    your land, you shall not vex him…
    Luke 6:35 But love you your enemies, and do good, and lend,hoping for nothing …
    Luke 10:28-37 And he said to him, You have answered right:this do, and you shall live…
    Luke 17:18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
    Galatians 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good to all men, especially …

  • Herm

    So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

    Matthew 7:12

    Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    Matthew 22:37-40

  • Jeff Preuss

    Wow. He got to Godless liberals quickly, didn’t he? Sheesh.

  • “Surplus populations.” Are you referring to those that God created individually and with the same value as yourself? Or does how you view them as an American trump how you view them as a Christian (if you are)?

  • CroneEver

    I certainly hope you’re 100% Indigenous American, because if not, you were brought here illegally in your parents’ loins. What country do you get to be repatriated to?

  • CroneEver

    Excellently done!

  • liberalinlove

    People who consider themselves followers of the WAY, or the Christ, or Jesus, really don’t need labels to define us. For me, it is what would Jesus require of me. We are known by the fruit we demonstrate. Loving our neighbor as ourselves asks for kindness.

  • CroneEver

    If that’s all pro-life is – opposing abortion and euthanasia – without any mention of opposing war, or opposing bombing innocent civilians (including pregnant women, I might add), or opposition to the death penalty, or supporting health care for pregnant women, or supporting health care for infants and children, or opposing lead in the drinking water – it seems that very many, many, many things are left out. Basically, it sounds like it means supporting birth and preventing terminally ill patients from having the right to end horrific pain. I find that insufficient.

  • CroneEver

    And I love it when people bring up the Old Testament to support attitudes that are the antithesis of what Jesus preached. Matthew 7:12; Matthew 22:37-40.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Yuppers. It’s profoundly disappointing when merely questioning brings on the “Godless” accusations, as if we should return to a time when we weren’t allowed to question anything, or take a deeply-introspective look at our own faith.

  • liberalinlove

    Immigrants pay taxes, and are consumers boosting our economy.
    …”The benefit multiplies over the long haul. As the baby boomers retire,
    the post-boom generation’s burden to finance their retirement is greatly
    alleviated by undocumented immigrants. Stephen Goss, chief actuary for
    the Social Security Administration, told me that undocumented workers
    contribute about $15 billion a year to Social Security through payroll
    taxes. They only take out $1 billion (very few undocumented workers are
    eligible to receive benefits). Over the years, undocumented workers have
    contributed up to $300 billion, or nearly 10 percent, of the $2.7
    trillion Social Security Trust Fund…”
    Time Magazine
    Do Illegal Immigrants Actually Hurt the U.S. Economy?
    It’s the Economy
    By
    ADAM DAVIDSON
    FEB. 12, 2013
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/magazine/do-illegal-immigrants-actually-hurt-the-us-economy.html

    They also pay state income, property and sales taxes.
    I don’t really think you realize the facts of what would happen to our economy or of what would happen to those being returned for repatriation. I think there is a whole lot of wishful thinking and laying blame at the feet of the wrong people going on here.
    We have facts and a faith that calls us to support a just treatment of those who are here. The path to legal immigration has not always been just. Maybe you should address those issues and apply your efforts to create a path to citizenry. .
    http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/just-facts/unauthorized-immigrants-pay-taxes-too
    http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/just-facts/facts-about-individual-tax-identification-number-itin

  • Darvin Yoder

    Right on!

  • CroneEver

    Well, according to everything I googled, the definition of “pro-life” is opposing abortion. Nothing about euthanasia at all. That must be a new add-on. It’s still insufficient in my book.

  • Herm

    pro

    n. pl. pros

    1. An argument or consideration in favor of something:
    weighing the pros and cons.

    2. One who supports a proposal or takes the affirmative side
    in a debate.

    adv.

    In favor; affirmatively: arguing pro and con.

    adj.

    Affirmative; supporting:

    life

    noun

    1.

    the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death.

    “the origins of life”

    synonyms: existence, being, living, animation; More

    2.

    the existence of an individual human being or animal.

    Is it then that you feel that it is correct for a group with exclusive interests to take the meaning of both “pro” and “life” when pictured together as only to be descriptive of their tightly selective agenda?

    I am pro-life by the full meaning of those words together. I am pro-choice by the full meaning of those words together. I’m certain so is Jesus Christ by what he teaches today as well as is witnessed to have taught in the New Testament.

    To take two words of clear meaning and make them fit only your cause is misrepresentation and usurpation. If a group is only for life by denying the responsibility of choice for those directly involved that certainly is not in the nature of the creator God I know who died on a cross by the choice of His enemies when He could have easily called 12 legions of angels.

    If a Christian is a follower of Christ then it is all life they are pro for, including an undocumented alien.

    The next step, not to be ignored, is to improve the quality of life for all. What good is quantity of life without a concern for quality of life? Isn’t that a possible definition for hell on earth by our own making?

  • Psalm023

    Yes!

    Want to know if we’re pro-life? Do what Jesus would do, and practice the commandment he gave us “do unto others” as we would have them do unto us, and the second command after loving God with all our heart and soul and mind is to love others as ourselves.

    If I was a fetus, I would not want others to abort me. If I was on death row, I would want my victims to forgive me and would beg for mercy and want courts to try to save my life. If I was mentally ill and unemployable I would be so thankful for a safety net. If I was an illegal immigrant, I would hope that others would have mercy and figure out a way to keep me in the only home I knew. If I was a Syrian refugee, I would hope that others would not turn me away. There, I should treat all these as I would want to be treated.

    It’s pretty simple.

  • Brandon Roberts

    i honestly think it’s just cause their scared the immigrants are going to “get them” (which is complete paranoia)

  • Bones

    “and yes quality of life is important.”

    However you are against people being assisted in their deaths because they have poor quality of life.

    Ultimately it’s about keeping them alive to make you happy.

    “”opposing war, or opposing bombing innocent civilians (including pregnant women,”

    That’s not pro-life, ”

    That’s a pretty astounding statement. Let’s add capital punishment and opposition to gun control to that as well.

    Btw excellent article on this…..

    Are Pro-Lifers Really Pro-Life?

    http://baysidechurch.com.au/are-pro-lifers-really-pro-life/

    What exactly is your solution given that abortions happen more in countries where it is illegal with far more women’s deaths?

  • Bones

    “I do not believe that just because you’re opposed to abortion, that that makes you pro-life. In fact, I think in many cases, your morality is deeply lacking if all you want is a child born but not a child fed, not a child educated, not a child housed. And why would I think that you don’t? Because you don’t want any tax money to go there. That’s not pro-life. That’s pro-birth. We need a much broader conversation on what the morality of pro-life is.” Sister Joan D. Chittister

  • Matthew

    Thanks so much Benjamin. More food for thought.

  • Bones

    So you have no solution other than to say make abortion illegal.

    That isn’t a solution,.

    It might make you feel good but it simply doesn’t work.

  • Bones

    “hence the reason most pro-lifers are not just involved in campaigning against abortion and euthanasia, but separately are engaged in supporting the poor, lonely, needy etc”

    I highly doubt it.

    You just need to look at the context of the US election.

    This is more the reality.

    http://blog.chron.com/nickanderson/2013/10/protecting-life/

  • Just finished my own blog: “Why I am a socialist” (http://thealternativeulsterman.com/2016/01/21/why-i-am-a-socialist/), and THIS is another reason; politicians who say they are ‘pro-life’ are almost always ‘conservative’ and thus committed to cutting public spending. In my book, you cannot insist on forcing a woman to undergo the birth of a child she did not plan for, and then do absolutely nothing to support that child, whether the mother keeps it to raise it herself, or gives it up for adoption. Either way, any society that forbids abortion on demand then MUST take up the collective responsibility for helping to raise that child (and ALL children for no child is responsible for their parents who might well be ill-equipped to raise them properly for various reasons).

    I find so few conservative politicians willing to accede to this that I then realise that their ‘pro-life’ stance is usually just a political statement and they have no REAL commitment to stopping abortion (but they’ll welcome your votes!). Hence I am a Christian, pro-life, pro-welfare, socialist! Only in a properly caring society with decent welfare coverage can we consider banning abortion!

  • Herm

    While I don’t agree with taking two words, putting them together and changing the meaning to fit only your cause I will honestly, from your perspective, say that you can’t be pro-life and support the mass-deportation of immigrants. I would say that this is even more so if you are passionately against the mother’s/doctor’s legal and regulated choice for abortion and the victim’s/doctor’s choice for euthanasia.

    The culture where a child grows up is the womb where their social, mental and spiritual survival skills are imprinted. When aborted from that culture after having proven to have become a productive and constructive influence is cruel and unusual punishment for a crime they did not commit.

    If the only crime of those illegal immigrant parents was to provide sustainable productive and constructive life for their children why would we pro-lifers even consider assisting to destroy the life they established and has become a positive contribution to our life?

    It makes no sense in a nation built first on invading another’s land with no consideration for their law, priding itself on declaring independence by these words …

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

    … as its foundation, and its people can be so passionate in defining pro-life and pro-choice that we would or could even consider disrupting to destroying another productive person’s unalienable right endowed by our Creator on the premise that this is mine and you don’t get a share of it because you didn’t follow MY laws in your pursuit of survival.

    Alyssa, you can own and limit the term pro-life if you wish but please understand that the reality of abortion and euthanasia have many more aspects and perspectives of womb and assisted death (life destroyed) than what the proponents of pro-life and pro-choice seem to envision.

    Yes, hell on earth is when we don’t care for the least of us. To wield our strength of law to destroy the life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for proven constructive and productive illegally immigrated members of our society today is potentially putting them through a hell you would not want for yourself.

    All of these societies had established laws regulating their borders which we were illegal aliens to …

    http://www.infoplease.com/spot/aihmnations1.html

    … and we have the nerve to limit our pro-life to our babies alone.

    I so very much hate how individual groups of mankind can be so self indulgent, within the narrow limitations of their many defined tribal causes, that they are blind to the fact that to our Creator mankind, in Their image, is only one single inseparable cause. How can we be responsible to weed out those of us who are destructive to mankind, through our law, when we ignore compassion and empathy for the whole of mankind as we would have the whole of mankind be empathetic and compassionate for us?

  • otrotierra

    #ThingsJesusNeverSaid

  • Bones

    Pro-Life

    Pro-life is a political neologism and emotionally loaded term used to define people who are in favor of protecting the life of every human fetus regardless of the consequences, and are thus opposed to abortion and seek to discourage, restrict, and/or outlaw its practice. The more common and neutral term anti-abortion and the political/feminist term anti-choice are also in general use. The pro-life platform often extends to opposing embryonic stem cell research, assisted suicide (euthanasia), and in some cases artificial birth control. Its adherents’ tactics range from the benign (e.g., prayers in church or fliers) to the aggressive (e.g., heckling patients walking into clinics, using the legislature to push their agendas, setting up crisis pregnancy centers) to the outright violent (e.g., bombing clinics and killing doctors).

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pro-life

    Pro-choice

    Pro-choice is the name given to the political stance that is in favour of keeping the right for a woman to choose an abortion over being forced to carry a baby if the pregnancy is unwanted. It is considered a liberal view, therefore evil and murderous by those who oppose it, but a sensible and protected freedom by those who don’t. It is also used for the political stance that is supportive of a person’s right to choose whether or not to end their life through euthanasia. While some pro-choice activism is based on the principle of self-determination, bodily integrity and physical autonomy, others have a smaller scope by targeting factors such as incest, rape or fetal defects.

    Rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pro-choice

    Now the issue is of course Pro-Lifer’s inconsistency in applying their ‘sanctity of life’ to other people who aren’t being born nor dying hence:

    “For one such as Cruz who runs on what seems to be a staunch pro-life platform, claiming to believe in the “sanctity of all life,” these anti-immigrant views fly in the face of what it means to actually and truly believe that all life has sacred worth.

    Such views are inconsistent with charity, mercy, and all the virtues which make the world a little less broken and a little more right.”

    It’s the hypocrisy of the Pro-Life that have no regards for living people.

  • Bones

    Well this article is about the US election.

    It seems to be you who wants to steer away from the article.

  • Bones

    What is his definition of Pro-Life?

    You seem to be hung up on that. He makes no definition but alludes to the Pro-Life mantra of the ‘sanctity of all life’..

    “You can’t be Pro-life and support the mass deportation of Immigrants” ”

    And what he is pointing out, no matter how much you don’t want to see it, is that it is only certain life that is important.

    The article is pointing out the hypocrisy in that.

    Cruz’s response is indicative of this.

  • Bones

    And what the post is saying is that such a stand like that in the post is hypocritical.

    It would be no different to being Pro-Life and advocating the slaughter of Jews which is exactly what the Nazi regime was.

    As for Cruz well he’s making his pro-life stance an election issue, whether you like it or not.

  • Bones

    The Nazi Party was pro-life as well and abortion was illegal in the Third Reich.

    What more proof do I need?

  • TheoLib

    It’s interesting you chose Mother Teresa. I’m not Catholic, but, from what I’ve read and heard, the Catholic Church has a not insignificant stance on being pro-life and they haven’t limited that to abortion and euthanasia. (Like any religion or denomination, the Catholic Church has a spotty record in practice, but its pro-life principle has a broader focus than the two items you mention.)

    I will agree that my initial reaction to Benjamin’s argument was that it was a bit of a stretch, although I understood his point. I think that an argument against our country’s shameful treatment of and attitude towards immigrants needn’t depend on being “pro-life”, but could be made using other more apt moral and religious principles.

  • Bones

    Godwin’s Law doesn’t apply here.

    The Reich Central Office for the Combating of Homosexuality and Abortion (German: Reichszentrale zur Bekämpfung der Homosexualität und der Abtreibung) was the central instrument of Nazi Germany for the fight against homosexuality in Nazi Germany and the fight against abortion.

    Abortion was a capital offence in the Third Reich and was viewed as sabotage. Women convicted of procuring abortions were sentenced to hard labour, doctors who performed abortions sentenced to death.

    By your definition they were Pro-Life.

  • Bones

    Refer to mine.

  • Bones

    Also abortions were banned in the USSR from 1936 under Joseph Stalin.

    Also brutal Romanian dictator Nicolae Ceausescu had a harsh anti-abortion policy.

    Saudi Arabia also bans abortions.

    Once again all Pro-life.

  • Tullius Agrippa

    The two issues are completely independent of one another. However, with a sufficient number of muslim immigrants and a drive to introduce sharia the two issues would them become connected – oppositely to the way in which you are connecting them.

  • Bones

    The point is quite well made.

    You can be Pro-life and be a murdering maniac. You can be Pro-Life and send children to Auschwitz.

    That’s the whole contradiction of those who maintain such a pov and claim to be pro-life.

    And what the article is stating for the umpeenth time is the hypocrisy of maintaining a Pro-Life position while not giving a rats about ordinary people’s lives or seeing the sanctity of others.

    How hard is that to understand?

  • liberalinlove

    I had an interesting conversation with a person who had a pro-life blog. He believed you could be pro-life without being pro-health care for all. How does that work, when the health of a mother, prenatal care and post natal care as well as early childhood care is directly tied to adequate health care.
    You can care for others, be pro-life and still not care about the life that crosses your border.
    Child trafficking happens in this country without adequate immigrant laws. Sending children and families back to other countries, where political, gang, drug slavery and human trafficking take advantage of the immigrant and places those people at risk for certain death or inhumane behavior can not be pro-life.
    Your definition of pro-life may be defined by the current political definition. Pro-life is not just anti-abortion.

  • Pro-Life supporters are trying to stop the mass killing of unborn human beings by misguided “killers.” This horror is not new. It has been reported in the OT at length. Then the “killers” waited for the birth and threw their living baby in the fire; today Planned Parenthood snips the spinal cord to harvest the organs of unborn human beings in the last stages of pregnancy. How Christian of them. I am sure Jesus would be a contributor and a Pro-Choice supporter. However, to the point of your blog, you are constantly preaching Pacifism. You have spoken out about Abortion. The issue of Immigration is almost hopelessly mired in politics. Immigration issues, while humanitarian in nature, are not in the same league with “baby killing.” Not now, not ever. Immigration will be resolved when the politicians we elect do their jobs. Abortion can be stopped by educating people and then the clinics will no longer be necessary. Try getting an abortion in a Catholic hospital. I guess their Jesus is not the Jesus of the Pro-Choice crowd.

  • liberalinlove

    Definitions change constantly depending on word usage and social memes. If you vote pro-life, or for a pro-life candidate, chances are you are only pro-birth by virtue of every other policy set forth by those candidates.

    I voted strictly pro-life until I realized that it was NOT pro-life but pro-birth. Policies, politics, society may assign a dictionary definition. How they live is the real meaning of the word. If you are pro-life and support the mass deportation of immigrants you are not by GOD’s definition pro-life. He is the giver and lover of life.

    Some people love the letter of the law, some the spirit. Perhaps you are arguing semantics for the sake of argument. Perhaps the spirit of what Corey is saying is the more relevant method of reading.
    You can be a nice person, a humanitarian, a charitable giver and still be pro-choice. If fact many pro-choice people are so because they are concerned about a child being raised in a less than ideal and unwanted environment.
    Or they worry about a young mom being stressed over an unwanted pregnancy.
    Caring for others does not make you pro-life.
    The pro-life person looks at life as God would.

  • Bones

    This isn’t about you for crying out loud.

    It’s about people like Ted Cruz who are campaigning on a Pro-Life platform and couldn’t give a rats about the lives of others,

    He is the one you should be admonishing.

    But we won’t hold our breath.

    “For it to be an example of hypocrisy or a contradiction, it would have to involve a woman giving conferences on anti-abortion ideologies while continuing to seek abortions in the future ”

    Well that happens too.

    That you can’t see a contradiction between being Pro-life and sending children to the gas chamber is frankly staggering.

  • Bones

    Apparently you can be Pro-life and send kids to Auschwitz and there’s no contradiction there.

  • Bones

    Amazing how immigration is too complex regardless of what the Bible says.

    “Abortion can be stopped by educating people and then the clinics will no longer be necessary.”

    Yeah, sure.

    That’s why women get an abortion isn’t it?

    “Try getting an abortion in a Catholic hospital.”

    They’d actually rather the mother and baby die, which is staggering given the amount of public funding they receive.

  • Bones

    If you can’t see the contradiction in that, go grab a brain.

  • Bones

    Like I said, we won’t be holding our breath waiting for you to criticise Ted Cruz.

    That you can’t see a contradiction between being anti-abortion and sending children to the gas chamber is frankly staggering.

  • Bones

    You aren’t using yours.

    Your use of logic is appalling.

  • Bones

    Seems to be lots of people speaking on behalf of God.

    Why can’t they?

  • Bones

    Then why are you here?

    You are just filling the thread up with crap unrelated to the article which is specifically about politicians like Ted Cruz.

  • liberalinlove

    Perhaps the dictionary definition is that because people who identify as pro-life are only anti-abortion. Perhaps that is the issue. If you value life, maybe you need to address the issue that pro-life people have helped to create a definition that falls short.

  • liberalinlove

    I adhere to the message that loving God with all my heart soul and mind and my neighbor as myself sums up the entire goal of a follower of God. Sharing the good news is speaking for God.

  • Herm

    Bones is a member of mankind who doesn’t treat women or men as the sole propagators of the species. Babies are cute for a natural survival reason, they appear helpless so garner the support of their species, mankind in this instance.

    When a pregnant women knows with all her heart and mind that something is not right with her fetus, or the conditions are not right with which she is responsible to bring life into, she is not so cute. She can be equally as helpless as the cute baby.

    The soldier who goes to war because their nation asks is not so cute as the helpless baby. When they lose their life by spilling blood in utter anguish they are not so cute as the baby, from first hand experience actually really appalling, they are even more helpless than any fetus.

    In an over populated world, depleting resources faster than we can adapt that our species might survive by, educated healthy young women and men are more valuable than making every effort to populate the world with our species by turning out cute little fetuses to babies. You try so hard to make it simple that pro, meaning for, attached to life means only for no abortion and/or no euthanasia.

    Lady, life is not that simple. You are not cute and your outlook on life for mankind is appalling.

    Bones cares for all life, by his fruit, you care for your simple cause and the rest of life be damned, by your fruit. Everything Senator Cruz does by his attitude of exclusion effects mankind in Australia and the rest of mankind destructively. Everything you do to support your pro-life of fetuses to term and the sick without assistance to their choice of life or death affects mankind in Australia and the rest of mankind destructively.

    You, and your supporting ilk, believe so deeply no sane person could intentionally abort a helpless little fetus’ life prematurely. I’m an American Vietnam vet (in country, honorably discharged) I know of 50,000 men and women who had their lives aborted prematurely. I know of millions of potentially mass deported constructively contributing undocumented people, through no fault of their own, facing the potential of having their life of contributions to our nation prematurely aborted. You truly do make me frustrated and sick with your defense of such a limited definition of life to be pro for.

    Get off your high horse and see this world for exactly what life is, please. You aren’t cute enough, constructive to the life of my species enough, or aware enough for me to support your blind quest to over populate my nation, world or species by being for the life not constructive at the risk of life already invested in and actually being constructive for all of mankind and our nation.

    Alyssa, for what I know by experience I hurt for you and what you do, really.

    Oh, dear Father in heaven, I so wish my fellows of mankind could see and feel the responsibility of triage for the survival of mankind without having to go through the anguish Jesus went through that we, mankind, might live. Please help Alyssa to understand what she does. amen

  • Politicians are not interested in Religion for any reason unless it serves to further their power. The Catholic Church and its Charities have done and continue to do more than any other religious organization in the world. I am aware that they will choose the child over the mother in life threatening situations. It is the very essence of the problem with public (government) money that is trying to force the Catholic Charities to preform abortions against their religious convictions. Freedom of Religion is under attack in this country and this is one of the most egregious examples of that attack. Perhaps you would prefer them to shutdown serving the poor and helpless of the world because they won’t kill unborn children?

  • Herm

    Why is it that seemingly no one sees that the Roman Catholic church instituted their command of no abortion and the rhythm method of contraception strictly to populate their worldwide Roman nation? How else could the church of Constantine afford such gorgeous and huge monuments to their wealth in such poor countries throughout the world?

    This is not phrased well but it is the best I can do without explaining how or why I would ask such volatile questions.

  • Unfortunately your argument is upside down. The Bible is very circumspect on abortion but very clear on the issue of immigration. Politicians should not be concerned with religion except as a matter of conscience but your views on abortion and immigration are unwittingly political. The OT is very clear that because the Jews were once refugees they should treat aliens with respect and love. The prophets condemn the Jews’ treatment of aliens strongly. When they were passing judgement and foretelling the desecration of Jerusalem where was the mention of aborting foetuses?

    I’m not saying that we should not be concerned about abortion but pro-life groups do appear to have cherry picked their cause, one that jesus never mentioned and the OT only hinted at.

  • There is no drive to introduce sharia law. Do you even know anything about sharia law? The threat from Muslims is a myth cooked up by racists and bigots like Ted Cruz.

  • The problem I have with debating anything that Ted Cruz says is that you spend forever untangling facts from the multitude of lies. He is also so nauseating that its really hard to be objective. One of the cartoons I come across sometimes is of a bank robber with a gun and the cashier handing over a bag of cash. Walking out of the bank is a guy in a suit shouting back to the robber, “Amateur”! The worst criminals in America are in Congress and Wall Street while the prisons are full of people who shouldn’t be there.

    I really don’t know how Cruz can cooly answer that person with such a callous heart and then get clapped. Its a repulsive spectacle that’s an insult to the name of Christ.

  • liberalinlove

    And God’s definition of life is more than anti-abortion.

  • Bones

    I have an interest in US politics given we tag along in whatever stupid war they commit us too.

  • repulsive, yes, and look at it from the other side of what may be in the cards for all those peeps who close their eyes, hearts & minds to others who are suffering now. they are living in a hostile state of consciousness that’s getting darker all the time! the future holds no mercy for such bc they don’t know what mercy is when given an opportunity to show it. all the connection w humain humanity is dropping away. a society of the cruel are cruel to each other & so lonley!

  • I would say that the bible is very clear that children are a gift from God. Children are the source of the continuation of God’s Plan for mankind. To take the life of the unborn is an affront to God. The twelve tribes were taken into captivity for failing to keep God’s commandments and laws. They were dispersed for lawlessness and today only the Jews are readily identifiable. In that time people did not abort children they literally threw them into the fire as a sacrifice to another God. Leviticus 20 [Full Chapter]
    [ Punishments for Sin ] The Lord said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites: ‘Any Israelite or any foreigner residing in Israel who sacrifices any of his children to Molek is to be put to death. The members of the community are to stone him. I myself will set my face against him and will cut him off from his people; for by sacrificing his children to Molek, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. …

  • Herm

    Abraham was tested to see if he would sacrifice Issac to God. The Israelite’s were responsible to God that no other god, including Molek, was sacrificed to in their land: in the form of women, men, children, crops or animals. Check to see who the target was by God for Passover. Our Father in heaven sacrificed His only begotten Son of Man for the lost and continuation of mankind. We are no more than children, yes possibly even fetuses, compared to the maturity and capability of God. We can only enter heaven as a little child.

  • Herm

    Can you understand that without the image of God’s spirit breathed into mankind that none of us are any more important to God than any other animal species on earth? How concerned are you to bring an ant’s fetus to term?

  • RonnyTX

    Benjamin:
    You Can’t Be Pro-Life and Support the Mass-Deportation of Immigrants
    Ronny to Benjamin:
    I agree. And I am pro-life. And that for the unborn child and for every born person as well, no matter where on this earth they live. Why? Because every person is a member of my family. And every person are the offspring/children of God. We are one family and we are to simply love one another. I am to love all people, just as God/Jesus Christ loves, both me and them.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    You are right if that is perfectly possible to be anti abortion and indifferent to the lives of those already born, but you can’t honestly call your position “pro life”, only “anti abortion”.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    There is no need to resort to insults; you and Alyssa are simply talking at cross-purposes. The label “pro-life” is used to mean “anti-abortion”: I agree with you that in many cases it is effectively a dishonest euphemism for simply “anti abortion” but I can’t see how that makes someone “brainless” for defending a common use of the term.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    I think Ben is letting his rhetoric run away with itself. You plainly can be opposed to abortion and loathsome towards everyone already born (as Ted Cruz proves) and “pro life” in the context is no more than a marketing re-brand for anti abortion.
    What you can’t consistently do is claim to be opposed to abortion because you believe in the sanctity of all life (as opposed to because e.g. there are votes in it) if you clearly have no interest in the sanctity of any life not currently occupying a womb.

  • Immediately you have changed the question. You are talking about breathing, viable lives, not foetuses. And if I read the passages rightly, its an affront to God to sacrifice to any other God plus its a capital offence to take another person’s life. I’m not even sure that the Bible even considers a foetus as a life as such though its considered to be a potential life.

    Whatever the answer is, we are picking the bones out of scriptures that are not explicitly addressing abortion but the laws on aliens are very clear. The Bible also explicitly says that the sins of the fathers will not be passed down to their children. Lets also be clear that Jesus condemned the Pharisees for burdening the people with laws that suited them while, at the same time, robbing widows. By jesus’ standards Ted Cruz is a son of the devil whose mother tongue is lies.

  • This whole argument is pointless on both sides and its easy to see how we can get hung up on semantics and totally miss the point. Its irrelevant what “Pro-life” means as a label. The point is that, if by saying as an anti-abortionist you are defending life, you cannot then approve of Ted Cruz’ views. Ben isn’t saying you cannot be “pro-life” he’s just saying that the term is meaningless if your reference is only to abortion.

    I don’t see what’s so complicated. If you can have compassion for a foetus that has never breathed, walked or talked how then can you dismiss the child of an immigrant as a criminal. As John says, you cannot say you love God and hate your brother.

    These discussions are offensive because we are arguing over crumbs when monsters like Cruz spew vile, hate filled propaganda.

  • I agree that Cruz is very bad for the U.S.

    As for Sharia Law, I’ve read much of the Pew study but not found any statistics on what percentage of American Muslims believe and disbelieve in Sharia Law.

    What is worrisome–and hard on the American budget–is that we are spending billions and giving millions to countries such as Iraq where the vast majority of Muslims do support Sharia Law:-(

    In Iraq: 91%:-(

    From Pew study:

    Support for sharia as the official law of the land also
    is widespread among Muslims in the Middle East-North Africa region – especially
    in Iraq (91%)
    and the Palestinian territories (89%). Only in Lebanon does
    opinion lean in the opposite direction: 29% of Lebanese Muslims favor making
    sharia the law of the land, while 66% oppose it.

    Across these three regions, at least six-in-ten Muslims
    who support the implementation of sharia as the official law say religious
    judges should decide family and property matters. This includes more than nine-in-ten
    in Egypt (95%) and Jordan (93%), and nearly as many in Malaysia (88%) and
    Pakistan (87%).

    In the Middle East and North Africa, many Muslims who
    support making sharia the official law also favor punishments like cutting off
    the hands of thieves. This includes at least seven-in-ten in the Palestinian
    territories (76%) and Egypt (70%), and at least half in Jordan (57%), Iraq
    (56%) and Lebanon (50%). Only in Tunisia do fewer than half (44%) of those who
    want Islamic law as the law of the land also back these types of criminal
    penalties.

    About half of all U.S. Muslims (48%) say that, when
    praying at a mosque, women should be separate from men, either in another area
    of the mosque or behind a curtain.

    About a third of Muslim American women (36%) report always
    wearing the headcover or hijab whenever they are out in public, and an
    additional 24% say they wear the hijab most or some of the time.

  • Excellent points, so well written: “If I was…”

    May I quote you?

  • You wrote, “While it is imperative to our Christian walk to treat people with compassion, love and respect, it’s not comparable to the issue of pro-life.”

    Maybe take a look at the book Completely Pro-Life by professor Ronald J. Sider.

  • Has anyone polled how many American evangelicals believe in Old Testament Law? Yet they eat pork, break the Sabbath and are not circumcised. Do they insist that all American boys are circumcised or that anyone who picks up sticks on a Sunday should be stoned? What are you worried about?

    You talk of American aid to Iraq but America and its allies invaded Iraq and spent trillions on an illegal invasion. The American government sent its own men to die in a pointless war and destroyed a country that had not threatened America.

    So why are you worried about Sharia law when your own government is a law unto itself, imprisons more of its people than any other country, poisons its own people for profit (Flint), has the highest child poverty of advanced countries and invades sovereign nations based on lies and oil?

  • ZionArt

    Brother Benjamin I get that 30-year-old Ofelia Valdez was brought to the United States as a child, but now that she is an adult why can’t Ms. Valdez go get documented like the tens of thousands of other documented immigrants that came to the U.S.?

    What makes Ms. Ofelia Valdez and the millions of undocumented immigrants who were brought from Mexico and South America as children so special that they can jump ahead of those documented immigrants who did everything right according to U.S. laws by remaining undocumented?

    For you to say that Ted Cruz is heartless for being pro life and saying that undocumented immigrants should follow the U.S. rule of law is laughable. Because if that be the case then a pro life Roman Catholic country like Mexico, which 12 millions of its citizens came to the U.S. as undocumented, would be heartless HYPOCRITES for kicking out undocumented immigrants that invaded its borders for not following its rule of law.

    http://www.fairus.org/issue/how-many-illegal-immigrants

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico#Religion

  • The huge difference is I’ve lived in the Middle East:-(. We were only 11/2 kilometers from where Muslims went into an apartment complex and shot up innocent civilians. I talked with Muslim young men who were dedicated to jihad:-(

    Plus, I’ve been talking with American and other Muslims since late 1960’s, etc.

    I’ve also read the Qur’an through am going through it again, read 4 biographies of Muhammad, been to an American mosque, had a Muslim present to our classes, etc.

    Islam and Sharia Law are something to be very worried about.

  • Herm

    and the millions of undocumented immigrants who were brought from Mexico and South Americaand Central America and Europe and Africa and Asiaas children so special that they can jump ahead of those documented immigrants who did everything right according to U.S. laws by remaining undocumented?

    If those children of undocumented immigrants had done the atrocities of your (unless you’re lineage is native to the Americas 410 years ago) undocumented to the Americas immigrant ancestors in full disregard to the laws of those occupying these lands before them I would say then you have a case. As it is when the premise for our independence from British rule and foundation of our law is based on, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness”, you are just one more spoiled self-indulgent ugly American trying to justify why this is ours earned by Yankee ingenuity rather than the truth that we stole this land by force. None of the children of undocumented immigrants who attempt to steal in kind the land we are now responsible to are welcome. All of the children of undocumented immigrants who have proved their constructive and productive influence in the support of our nation if we truly believe in their unalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are welcome. In reality it would be their’s and our loss if we prematurely terminated their relationship with us.

    We would lose the extra future Social Security payments they pay into with no hope of ever collecting on if we kick them out. But not to worry if they stayed, began from the back of the line in their pursuit of citizenship within the only national culture they invested in and were invested in, we’d lose their Social Security investment anyway because now they could collect. Let’s be really self-indulgent, and economically conservative at the same time, by keeping them invisibly in the shadows by intimidation, subjugation, fear and manipulation … not ever throwing them out … maintaining no hope of citizenship … where they are forced to pay into our national coffers for the pursuit of our happiness by the constructive and productive sweat of their brow and can’t ever collect on those investments.

  • Are you not worried that Congress won’t pass a law banning suspected terrorists having access to guns? Are you not worried by vigilantes like the Bundies getting away with threatening Federal officials with impunity? Are you not afraid of Christian extremists who are happy to defend their religion with guns? Why are you afraid of Muslims when Trumps fascist thugs are chanting USA, USA. The threat doesn’t come from shariah law, it comes from the gross inequality in your country, the arms trade, corruption in the political system. it comes from America’s allies: Saudi Arabia, Israel and Egypt, all oppressive regimes, none of them interested in peace or freedom.

  • Pro: affirmative side
    Life: the period of time when a person is alive

    We don’t have to abide by a political definition. If we want to break the words down to their base meaning, we can. Pro-Life according to the actual definitions is much wider than simply anti abortion and should include compassion and kindness to human beings through the period of time when they are alive. That would include caring for immigrants rather than doing a mass deportation.

  • I understand, Alyssa, and apologies because I didn’t see that somebody already said the same thing as I in the comments below. However, the term pro-life was chosen to represent the anti-abortion movement because it wasn’t as ugly a term as anti-abortion. So most of us are simply taking issue with the movement having made that decision to use words that have a much broader meaning (life=all living things) versus a narrow one (life=unborn babies).

  • scott stone

    Can you be pro-life and anti-illegal immigration?

  • scott stone

    “you are just one more spoiled self-indulgent ugly American…” My guess is that you don’t personally know ZionArt, either do I, but you may want to dial it back a notch or two.

  • Saudi Arabia and Egypt ARE Islamic countries. Almost 90% of Egyptians have supported female mutilation. 88% of Egyptians support the death penalty for Muslims who leave Islam!

    Yet the U.S. government strongly supports and supplies weapons to these governments!
    Exactly. Why?

    We shouldn’t be supporting them, or Iraq or Afghanistan, etc.

    Sharia Law is a huge problem for many, many people.

    Besides the evidence of 88% of Egyptians supporting the death penalty for ex-Muslims, look at the other Pew statistics on how prevalent support for Sharia Law is around the globe, especially in the Middle East.

  • America isn’t supporting Iraq or Afghanistan. The US has destroyed Iraq and has done Afghanistan no favours. Don’t you see my point? Saudi Arabia is the prime promoter of Islamic terrorism. That’s where Al Quaida came from. Yet it’s a close ally. The US is effectively a supporter of terrorism and is largely responsible for the formation of ISIS.

    You are fixated on sharia law when there is no agenda to impose it on American people unlike right wing Christians who are intent on forcing their Christian agenda

  • Nixon is Lord

    There is no god; if you have more people than jobs, you’ve got a serious problem.

  • Nixon is Lord

    No; why should we feed what they breed?

  • Are you confusing me with another poster?

    I didn’t support the U.S. wars in Iraq. In fact one other colleague and I were the only two teachers in a large secular high school who opposed the wars.

    Furthermore, I’m opposed to the Christian religion, opposed to right-wingers.

    I agree that Saudi Arabia and other Gulf States are prime promoters of terrorism.

    Where we disagree is this that you wrote: “Do you even know anything about sharia law? The threat from Muslims is a myth…”

    Not true. Islam is wrecking havoc across the world as it has ever since Muhammad beheaded over 500 Jews men and sold their wives and children into slavery.

    Multi-millions of humans suffer under the injustice, inequality, and destruction of Islam.

    We write letters for human rights. There are thousands of cases of humans being denied justice, equality, etc.

    Study the history of Islam. And read the views of HAMAS, Hezbollah, and millions of Muslims, and the views of Islamic governments such as Pakistan, Sudan, Iran, etc.

    The U.S. isn’t largely responsible for the formation of ISIS. That comes from a strict literal interpretation of Islam, from twisted humans who think the Qur’an is perfect and eternal.

    What the U.S. has done is go in and make matters worse.

  • Herm,

    Your point is? The proposition in the blog was that you can be Pro-life and support mass deportation of immigrants. My point was that these two issues are not intertwined in the least.

  • Herm, is this a serious question? Are you now comparing insects to humans?

  • The question in the blog was whether Pro-life supporters can be for mass deportation. My point is that these two issues cannot be inter-twined in any one. One is punishable by death: the other is like a misdemeanor. If you are not sure that the bible considers the fetus an unborn human being then that might be a starting point.

  • Herm

    My point is that the Bible in no way distinguishes a child of mankind as any more important to God than an adult. It is an animal instinct of the carbon based mankind who alone values numbers of its species to propagate that their species might live beyond their death. Jesus is very clear throughout that unless you can exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees and the scribes you will not inherit eternal life. A fetus has no ability of responsibility to adhere to loving the Lord its God with all its spiritual heart, soul, strength and mind much less loving its merciful neighbor as itself. When a child recognizes the spiritual breathed into its carnal self I do not know but I know that is all that can survive the carnal mortality. Life is life and all should be cared for equally carnally and spiritually. To separate the life of a fetus as more important than an undocumented child is not pro life biblical, secular, spiritual or carnal.

    Does that make any sense to you?

  • Chad

    I’d venture a guess that your perspective would be radically different if you were born in Syria, not the US. You and I had no input on the type of country we’d be born into (I’m Canadian) – same as all the people fleeing death-dealing governments and situations. We should feed them because we’d hope for the same treatment if we were hungry, or our kids were hungry.

  • Herm

    Mass deportation can easily be the premature death of an invested constructive and productive member of our society different only from you, apparently, in that they are undocumented. They are way beyond a starting point.

    An unborn human being is carnal and will die without the breath of God.

  • Herm

    How much bigger, in the sight of God, do you believe you are than an ant without the spiritual image of God breathed into you? We aren’t, in and of ourselves, very important but by the grace of God because of Their breath in the image of Their Spirit. The truth is you are looking down on the ants as so inferior to your abundant superiority that you aren’t looking out to how microscopically inferior you are to God. We are invisible, as earth, to the cosmos we know that has more solar systems within than we have grains of sand on our puny planet. We don’t have the capacity to digest that fact much less the might of the Creator of our cosmos. That is how we must understand our selves to understand the truth and grace of God. Our creator God can easily be in all places at the same time and still sit all together on a pimple of any electron orbiting within any atom and still have room to spare.

    You are right, insects may be much too large compared to us to contrast us to God.

  • Atheist or Deist, I still think compassion is more important than economics. Though, I take your point. I guess, I figure more brains are better than less when it comes to solving problems.

  • Herm

    Mexico didn’t found their independence on “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness”. I am tired of how we, as a nation, ignore the laws of those before us and act out like we earned something when in fact we stole all we have to be proud of. For 50 years of traveling around the world in many different nations I have had to put up with how so many USA Americans before me ignored their laws and traditions, also. If we, assuming a follower of Christ facade, cannot understand that we can’t throw people out to wait their proper turn without risking their life we take for granted as ours, not theirs. I don’t care what Mexico does or does not do for they are a sovereign nation. I care what the USA does because I was born into that responsibility. No, I am not dialing it back a little but thanks for the review. We’re talking real lives that may just be your most merciful local neighbor. We’re not talking lives that are criminal at all except by the fact that their parents may have done all they could that their children might live.

    This is FAIR: http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/fair-warns-dangerous-immigrants-canada

    This is an organization screaming porous borders when our illegal immigration in the last three years as been less Mexicans come in than leave. The 12 million undocumented aliens in the USA are not all Mexicans by a long shot. Those who preach such lies on the premise that after 250 years of far more porous borders than today we have to stop all illegal immigrants and slow down the legal immigration coming to the USA are ugly Americans. Not what our fore-fathers envisioned. That is narrow minded self indulgence. Am I angry, you betcha’. I hurt for all our lives throughout the earth and as an adult cictizen in a nation of the people, by the people and for the people I am responsible to all lives inside our border, documented and undocumented. All lives count!

  • scott stone

    I was just saying you didn’t need to be insulting.

  • scott stone

    I think you can.

  • otrotierra

    #ThingsJesusNeverSaid

  • The reason you can’t connect the two is because your terms of reference are too narrow. ‘Pro-life’ people seem entirely focused on entities. What Corey is saying is that the child of an illegal immigrant has intrinsic value as a person and cannot be shipped off like they were cattle. To claim to be pro life when it comes to a foetus that is not viable and then treat a person standing next to you with such contempt for their life is hypocrisy.

    I only argue your interpretation of scripture because you use it to justify the unjustifiable when your own interpretation is questionable. You have no clear mandate from scripture and you sure as hell have no compassion for the poor soul who, through no fault of her own, is being threatened with deportation.

  • Bones

    Yeah right.

    That includes letting women die from their miscarriages.

    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/savita-halappanavar-report-ireland-abortion_n_3434769.html

  • Bones

    Actually it makes sense now.

    Pregnant women should be deported back to countries the vast majority of which have the strictest abortion laws in the world eg Mexico, Islamic states.

  • Bones

    Huh ISIS was Al Qaeda in Iraq.

    There is no way in the world they would exist prior to the US invasion.

    You seem to be a disciple of Sam Harris.

  • Bones

    Its obvious why.

    Its about oil.

    Thats why the US has been stuffing around in the Middle East for the past 100 years including empowering Islamic extremists against secular Muslims to destabilise governments.

    As for fgm. Its an African problem where Christians practice it as well.

    http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/oct/02/reza-aslan/fact-checking-reza-aslans-retort-bill-maher/

  • Bones

    I see your anti-abortion website and raise you the findings of the inquest.

    The inquest into Savita Halappanavar’s death has unanimously delivered its verdict: her death was due to medical misadventure. Halappanavar died after being denied an emergency termination in October and her case has since been at the centre of Ireland’s abortion wars. The inquest jury strongly endorsed the nine recommendations of the coroner, Ciaran MacLoughlin, including a suggestion that the Irish Medical Council lay out exactly when a doctor can intervene to save the life of a mother in similar circumstances.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/apr/19/savita-halappanavar-abortion-midwife

    Pretty poor form to launch a website attacking abortions when she asked for it and was denied it.

    At the inquest, Halappanavar’s consultant, Dr Katherine Astbury, said that she met her patient’s request for an abortion with the explanation that a poor foetal prognosis does not provide legal grounds for termination in the Republic. It must seem incomprehensible to people outside Ireland that when Halappanavar asked for a termination knowing that her pregnancy could not survive she was denied one because of the presence of a foetal heartbeat. In Ireland, however, women told that they are carrying live foetuses with fatal abnormalities routinely go to the UK to abort rather than wait weeks for their pregnancy to die, all the while growing bigger and trying to answer cheerful questions about the new baby without breaking into tears.

    What’s important to note here is that Halappanavar – a foreign national and a medical professional – felt it within her right to ask for a termination. Would an Irishwoman, brought up in a culture in which abortion is a dirty word and a shameful deed – and especially a less educated or differently educated Irishwoman – even have asked? Sometimes it takes an outside element to show how utterly messed up the system is.

    One of the reasons that Halappanavar’s death became an international news story was her husband Praveen’s insistence that hospital staff told his wife that she couldn’t have a termination because Ireland is a Catholic country. During the inquest, the midwife Ann Maria Burke came forward to apologetically explain that she was the source of this remark. She said that she had only wanted to throw light on Irish culture for Halappanavar, explaining: “It was the law of the land and there were two referendums where the Catholic church was pressing the buttons.” From reportage, it looks as though she was all but slapped on the wrist by the coroner, who told her that Irish public hospitals do not follow any religious tenet or dogma.

  • Bones

    Pretty neglgiible in Albania and European countries.

    Maybe its because their countries arent shitholes that have oil.

  • What?! LOL! I am against almost every view Sam Harris has–his determinism, his claim that our “i” is an illusion, his atheism, his speculative support of nuclear weapons, etc.

    As for Iraq. We will have to agree to disagree. The area now called Iraq has been a hotbed of Islamic slaughter for a very long time. The Islamic State is only one of many terrorism movements there now and in the past.

    What the U.S. did, by our two invasions and elimination of Saddam, is only open the floodgate again. As horrific as Saddam was, the ruthless dictator held many other sociopaths in check.

    The slaughter stretches way back to the infamous first war between the Sunni and the Shia in the 660’s.

  • If Islam was a good religion it wouldn’t have practiced the subjugation of women for hundreds of years and as it still does in most Islamic countries even in the 21st century. Check the Pew studies and others.

    Comparing Islam to other bad conservative religions isn’t the way to go. That’s like saying our criminals here are like those criminals there…

    What needs to happen is the rejection of all forms of inequality, not excusing Islam.

    As for the Copts: “Female genital mutilation (FGM) has no religious textual backing in Christianity (as it has in Islam[1]), or any support by the Coptic Church. In fact, the Coptic Church clearly and openly opposes the practice of female genital mutilation and finds it contradictory to divine values.[2]
    Female Genital Mutilation is practiced by some Copts in Egypt, particularly in Upper Egypt, as a matter of assimilation to the Muslim majority.
    1 Although there is nothing in Koran about female genital mutilation, there is no doubt that Muhammad approved it. Sunna (the traditions of Muhammad) is a major source for Muslim beliefs and customs.”
    https://copticliterature.wordpress.com/2014/02/21/the-position-of-the-coptic-church-on-female-genital-mutilation-fgm/

    As for the issue of oil, I would agree that our support of terrible governments often has to do with that.

  • scott stone

    Scandalous! :)

  • Nixon is Lord

    So ten billion people will be great for the environment?

  • Nixon is Lord

    The chances of that are remote.

  • The environment will take care of itself. Whether the human race can survive on what it becomes or not is irrelevant to the environment. But that’s a different subject, really. I think taking care of the people who are here is a good reason for being.

  • Jesus never said to reject those who need help.

  • Herm

    And both of you are wrong. To represent the peoples of the United States of America whose independence from an ugly self indulgent dominance ignoring the life, the liberty and the pursuit of happiness for all peoples created equal by demanding the same as our previous oppressors is ugly. Most of our European ancestors were mass deported to these lands because they were objectionable and then were subjugated, intimidate and manipulated by the British rule. We have subjugated, intimidated and manipulated immigrants who began on student visas, work programs and yes many parents looking to avoid worse in their countries of birth for themselves and their children. All Native American laws were ignored by our ancestors for our self indulgence. No, I did not insult anyone but I did bare the facts as the rest of the world knows them better than us by our fruit.

  • Herm

    Alyssa, I was responding to why I do not see that I was insulting anyone by the use of a worldwide descriptive and well understood term of an ugly American. You implied that you were pro-life and anti-illegal immigration to Scott (“Can you be pro-life and anti-illegal immigration?”) which taken in context with Ben’s article indicates that you are pro mass deportation of immigrants. I thought you were not but only highly resistant to pro life being pro for all life. I am glad that you remain in disagreement with mass deportation of immigrants. Thank you.

  • Thank you fro your reply, Alyssa, but you have misunderstood my point. I’m not saying that abortion should only be opposed if there are sufficient means for the child, but I AM saying that it is wrong for a politician to oppose abortion and then MAKE no provision for the needs of the ‘unwanted’ or ‘unplanned’ child. That unfortunately is the position of conservative politicians who are opposed to spending on welfare. As a socialist, I find that being conservative on the ‘standard’ issues, like taxation and spending, leads to an unwillingness to engage in care for those with unwanted pregnancies.

    We are losing the debate to pro-choice, and we need to regroup and rethink. As Jesus followers, our first redress must be to go back to our Lord’s commands, yes? We are to love unconditionally, so anyone who has become pregnant deserves our understanding, compassion and love, regardless of the circumstances. Though take a young woman brutally raped; she’s a victim of a heinous crime, and she wishes to remove the product of that crime from her body. When she arrives at a clinic to enquire about her ‘choice’ she may be met outside the door by very vocal opponents with placards and loud voices. Hardly compassionate! In order to be able to ‘convince’ her to keep the baby full-term, she needs support in many forms, including proper counselling, since she would be forced to undergo 9 months of upset and pain, followed by maybe a lifetime of raising the child if she decides to keep it. My problem is, coming from a socialist stance, that too many of the conservative ‘pro-life’ politicians today would oppose such support measures as a ‘burden on the taxpayer’ – for me, in order to provide a holistic pro-life solution, welfare must be racked up to as high a level as possible. Makes you wonder which ones are truly ‘pro-life’ and which are just seeking votes.

    Calling on charities and churches to do the caring and counselling for them is a load of tosh in my opinion, since it absolves an abortion-banning government of responsibility for the consequences (which may well be backstreet abortions) and it is reliant on a patchy and inconsistent coverage where some women are bound to ‘fall through the cracks’.

    Someone provided some stats for the US in which it was claimed that children needing adopted across the country would all be housed if only ONE family in EACH church in the country took one adoptee in! Were abortion to be made illegal, then the rise in babies seeking adoption would mean that the church of Jesus Christ would really need to step up to the plate and DO the caring and not just talk about it in legislative terms.

    You yourself choose to encompass euthanasia into the ‘pro-life’ argument, and you are entitled to: I can see the links. In the same way, Ben Corey is entitled to see links between true pro-life sentiments and the issue of caring for immigrants, and I am able to show how I believe this also (and more directly, I would argue) links to state welfare.

  • Herm

    Scott, there is nothing more ugly a spirit in the body of mankind than total lack of empathy, compassion and forgiveness for one of our own for that is self indulgence. There is nothing on this earth that we can say we earned for it was here long before us all. We have been graced (unmerited) all we have to work with even more so than any helpless newborn. To take responsibility to organize and coordinate for the health of mankind as a whole body through laws of regulation is good when bound in love for the entirety.

    What ZionArt expressed above seemed to come from an USA American citizen devoid of empathy, compassion and forgiveness for (“but by the grace of God go I”) others. When balanced with our own national Declaration of Independence the ugliness of Zionart’s self indulgent spirit is compounded by all definitions understood worldwide.

    I did not insult Zionart by stating the facts of her/his fruit spilled directly from her/his mouth. Yes, I would want the same response as I gave to him/her if the fruit from my mouth was as ugly, or even less so. So I thank you scott for causing me to reflect to see if I had erred negligently. I did not. I have as much empathy, compassion and forgiveness for you, Zionart, Alyssa, every legal or illegal immigrant and every member of my species of mankind as I do myself.

  • Nixon is Lord

    No, they’re linked. Too many people mean lots of environmental problems.

  • Nixon is Lord

    The chances of that are slim to none.

  • Nixon is Lord

    I’m not pro-life; abortion reduces the excess numbers of the poor, reducing the drive to emigrate from dysfunctional, backwards cultures and countries.

  • Weird! I posted a reply to you the other day but it’s never shown up!

    Thanks for the reply, Alyssa, but you have misunderstood me. I’m pro-life and that is inalienable to me, but in the murky world of politics, and the sharing that we must do with those who have different beliefs to ours, we need to look at why we are losing the debate to pro-choice. The main reason, I believe, is that we are trying to fight a political battle, and draw lines on the field that we dare not cross in case we be seen as traitors to our cause.

    What I am saying is that politicians who state that they are pro-life and would seek to ban abortion on demand, must then be willing to provide care and support for every aspect of the life of the child thus ordained to be born unplanned. Since the vast majority of pro-life politicians are conservative, they are also anti-welfare (since that is the battle line they must stand behind to be considered a true conservative!). This leads to a scenario: a young single woman is brutally raped – as a suffering victim of crime, she turns up at a clinic to look at her ‘options’ over the product of the crime that has taken residence in her body. She faces the placards and shouting faces on the street outside the clinic, so she really feels that those people will not understand or empathise with her plight. She ignores them and enters the clinic. Where is the love and compassion that Jesus commanded us to show?

    In a hypothetical near future, we elect politicians who outlaw abortion, and a similar young woman turns up at the clinic to be told that she has NO option; the child must be born (a worker there quietly tells her that there IS a place she can go that is in a quiet backstreet, but she goes at her own risk). The official line is that she can offer the child up for adoption very easily once it is born, but being under a properly-elected conservative legislation, she must provide for herself for the next nine months and just learn to deal with what she is going through. There are no counsellors, no therapists, no provision for her physical pain unless she has her own means, and if she becomes attached to the child and chooses to keep it, she will raise it all by herself; there will certainly be no handouts of taxpayers’ money for her! Her status of victim is just continued.

    This is what I envisage in a ‘conservative utopia’ – truly! The only proper way to outlaw abortion is when we also provide compassion and understanding for what each woman may be facing and such welfare is provided, without asking of questions and imposition of assessments, but very few of the politicians who take your ‘pro-life’ votes would even contemplate this: it would just cost the taxpayer too much, and of course, they’d stigmatise all unplanned pregnancies as ‘young sluts who should have kept their legs crossed’ in order to make their stance seem justified.

    They will then call on charities and churches to do the task of caring, but that won’t work. It would be patchy at best, but some stats were presented recently which showed that children awaiting adoption in the USA currently could be homed if only ONE family in EACH church across the country took in one adoptee. A post-abortion nation would have a lot more children in need of a home, so the church of Jesus on this earth would need to step up to the plate big time! Hence why I am a socialist; I BELIEVE in a society that has caring policies that apply universally to all citizens, and our taxes should pay for THESE things and not for handouts to cronies.

    You yourself include euthanasia along with abortion as a ‘pro-life’ policy, and you are entitled to; there are links there. Ben Corey is also entitled to see the links with caring for immigrants if you say you are pro-life, and I would argue that my linking of it to the universal provision of welfare for the child AND mother of an unplanned pregnancy is even closer.

    To win the debate, we must return to OUR commander-in-chief, and his words of love for all those in need. And get away from the political rhetoric that THEY want us to engage in for their ends!

  • Environmental problems for us, yes. Not for the planet. The planet will simply change like it always does. What we do to jeopardize our own place on it has to do with saving the human race, not the planet.

  • Kathy Ruth

    Because, if we are Christian, JESUS SAID TO!

  • Kathy Ruth

    Really? You are unaware of the consequences of income inequality, then!

  • Kathy Ruth

    No, what you are is an ASS who thinks, “I’ve got mine–screw everyone else!” Hopefully, those around you will take this attitude towards YOU if you happen upon tough times. Karma’s a real bitch, you know!

  • Kathy Ruth

    Not even close. Try again.

  • Kathy Ruth

    Apples and oranges. A common ploy by CONservatives!

  • Kathy Ruth

    Cherry-picking the Bible. Smh! Were these Israelites CHILDREN that had been brought into Edom? If not, this does NOT apply!

  • JD

    So we should deport politicians and pharmaceutical companies?

  • You make my point. Apparently Jeremiah had God’s spirit in the womb, Jeremiah 1:4-6. Good thing the Pro-Choice people didn’t kill him in the womb.

  • My contempt is for people who would try to compare abortion and immigrants. Unborn children have God’s spirit from the moment of conception, Jeremiah 1:4-6. The poor and oppressed will be with us to the end of the age. The aborted children have no chance. People who try to conflate the two are misguided.

  • Do you have any documentation that Catholic hospitals leave women to die in the waiting rooms. If so i would love to read it.

  • We do have to take care of immigrants. And our country does despite the political rhetoric.

  • Yes I am pro-life. I am not sure how anyone can defend abortion as a right of choice. It is a basic contradiction for a Christian. See Jeremiah 1:4-6 for a conversation “in the womb.” Good thing Jeremiah was not thrown in the fire to Molek like other Israelites of his time or God would have and edit to perform.

    Mass deportations are an aspect of the government not personal belief. If it is possible to have mass deportations and you feel it is wrong then your choice is to protest and work to have the laws changed. Most people could not deport other people under the circumstances. Politicians will say anything to gain power but rarely do anything they say. That is why we are having this issue. Deportation is a legal concept governed by the laws of the county in question.

  • Why do you have contempt for someone who sees the life of an immigrant as important as the life of a child in the womb? That’s irrational. What you mean is you have contempt for someone who challenges your point of view. You are being challenged and you don’t like it.

    In your statement you have dismissed the poor and oppressed because they are inevitable. How would you like to suffer and have others dismiss your appeals because that’s just the way it is? Can you not see how callous and reprehensible that position is?

    Jeremiah 1:4-6 doesn’t say that. It says that God knew you before you were born. its talking about God’s foreknowledge and omnipotence. You have no scripture to prove your position because none exists. And how can you claim abortion to be about belief yet the dehumanising and cruel mass deportation is about government?

    Your position is monstrous, based on religious dogma and ignorance, not totally dissimilar to that of the Pharisees. No doubt you will be offended but for all the wrong reasons.

  • Herm

    You do not believe that God has any influence in the counsel of our choice before our decisions, all our decisions (including life and death), have to responsibly be made? You do not believe, if this was truly a significant problem for God (especially for prophets He knew before conception in the womb) that He could express His law minimally and down right stop any abortion by His intervention if it was necessary to His will? Do you truly believe you and/or we have the perspective better than God to perform triage for mankind?

    I know of 50,000 of my comrades at arms who were prematurely aborted and God did not intervene to stop that unnecessary conflict. Do you not believe He could have sent 12 legions of angels to do so?

    Do you not believe that God could have stopped the premature deaths of 100,000 innocent men, women and children ravaged by “Shock and Awe” if He so chose?

    You seem to have a minutely small opinion of God’s concern for our well being and ability to intervene. Life is the responsibility of the creator and bearer of that life first and foremost. We can support by our counsel and resources but not by our laws. If we legislate to take a parent’s responsibility to make tough decisions relative to the health of their family we go where God refuses to go.

    At what age do you remember you became aware of your spirit in the image of God? This is asked because without that spirit in the image of God, who is purely spirit, breathed into our carnal body we are no more or less important to God than any other life form. With that spirit we have the opportunity, should we choose, to become children of God; sisters, brothers, and mother of Jesus.

    Jeremiah’s spirit is what God knew, not the carnal tool Jeremiah needed to communicate on earth as one of mankind.

    I don’t think I make the point you would like me to, sorry.

  • Its not beyond you, you just don’t want to consider it. The issue of abortion is part of a wider issue of birth control and the way pro-lifers make it black and white has ramifications they refuse to consider because they are more concerned with their their theology than the plight of real people in distress.

    The recent attacks on Planned Parenthood, both political, verbal and fatally violent have exposed the lengths pro-lifers will go to even to the point of fabricating evidence and denying women basic health care. This has cost lives that pro-lifers do not care about.

    This is why many dismiss pro-lifers as rabid hypocrites and with much justification. Decent people around the world look on this phenomenon with incredulity and put it down to religious fanaticism which is dangerous and ignorant.

  • Thank your for confirming, with no room for doubt, that you are one of those pro-life nut jobs. Planned Parenthood provide health care and advice to women who could not otherwise afford it. But you would happily deny them that. You and Shiloh deserve each other.

  • That was random! LOL

    It’s a Goodfellow fretless bass, made locally here in Northern Ireland when it was a part of Lowden, the renowned hand-made acoustic manufacturers. Goodfellow is now in England.

    I’ve played bass for 36 years now (rock, Christian Rock, worship), though it sat in the corner for a few years until I changed church in 2009 and started playing worship again. Became the only bass player but moved church again in November where I’m part of a team and only play occasionally – much less of a chore, actually.

  • Jim Eckland

    Equal enforcement under the law. If they come to the USA illegally they must be dealt with. The only just penalty is deportation with fines to pay the costs. Borders of a nation must be enforced or you no longer have a nation.

  • Jim Eckland

    But the laws need enforcement and residents need to be helped first than those in the nation illegally. We have a welfare state…get rid of it and most of the problem goes away. Christians need to be Good Citizens.

  • Jim Eckland

    Did the Native Americans have any Immigration Laws written on their trees?

  • Jim Eckland

    Most illegal immigrants are here for Economic reasons and not fleeing for their lives.

  • Herm

    Jim, that’s not the swiftest question. They had very clear laws but we chose to ignored them being superior in our Christianity and all.

  • Herm

    Jim, you eat as well as you do completely relative to the economy of the nation you are within, even when less than 1% have more than 75% of the economic resources in their pocket. You don’t know how bad the economy is that immigrants are fleeing from, all of them, that their lives depended on.

    Ever since mankind began farming and ranching lives have been dependent upon economy. We can go back to all of us being hunter gatherers and the world would balance out to not so over populated and gather only where the seasons allowed sufficient resources for each tribe to survive. That was the only time in the history of mankind that members were not leaving their tribe to be considered illegal immigrants in another tribe.

  • That is a lie. Recently Planned Parenthood went to court and the people who made the charges were indicted instead of PP. That’s because the film they made was a complete hoax and the methods they used were illegal. PP are now taking legal action themselves against these liars and fraudsters.

    You are part of a movement based on lies, slander and fear.

  • If you have seen the video showing PP involved in abortions and selling body parts you should do more investigation. The video has been shown to be fabricated and PP have never made money from abortions or the sale of body parts. Their involvement with abortion (including advice) is only a very small fraction of the work they do. If you defunded PP you would end up hurting many women who cannot afford to get advice or treatment on reproductive related issues. Also, it would not do anything positive about abortion.

  • Bones

    So why do Christians practice fgm?

    It is specifically an African problsm which is also practised in majority Christian African nations.

  • Bones

    Well if you’re going back to ancient history look no further than nonsensical partitioning after WW1.

    Btw we never heard of islamic terrorism growing up. It was called Arab nationalism eg PLO.

  • I did not say anything about the life of an immigrant. I did not ask you to challenge my point of view. I responded to Ben and stated that conflating abortion and immigration is misguided.

    Your interpretation of Jeremiah 1:4-6 is incorrect. God is showing you that children receive the spirit of man at conception and ripping out their life with forceps is murder.

    There is no mass deportation going on anywhere in the world. If you are worrying about the country you live and prosper in then try voting.

    I am not offended by your comments because they are based on emotion and not fact.

  • I feel like I need an interpreter to help me with your responses. So I will try to do that on my own.

    I do believe God influences all of our decisions all the time even though we often choose to ignore His counsel.

    Man choose to know good and evil from the garden and God has allowed him to choose since that time and will allow him to continue until Jesus returns and the last age of mortal man begins. Jesus told us there would be wars and rumors of wars until that time and that has certainly come true.

    As to Jeremiah, you are confusing the spirit of man with the spirit of God. Each of us is born with the spirit of man which allows us to think and reason unlike animals who have instinct as their guide. If and when God calls us in this age through Jesus then we have a chance to receive the spirit of God which is a totally different event.

    If the Molek serving Pharisees had terminated Jeremiah then he would be like we will be, dead and in the ground awaiting the coming of Jesus and the resurrection not put in another egg like a card dealt in a game of chance.

    The point is, and always was, abortion and deportation are not to be thought of as equal because one is vile murder and the other is a lack of compassion.

    I hope I have clarified a bit…

  • Have you heard of Occam’s Razor? It says that the explanation with the fewest assumptions is probably the correct one. I’ve already explained that the plain reading is that God foreknew Jeremiah and had a plan for him even before he was born. Its poetic language and its foolish to base your whole philosophy on such passages.

    In Genesis it says that God created Adam from the dust and breathed his life giving spirit into him. So its equally legitimate to suggest that a foetus doesn’t become a distinct person until it is viable (able to breathe by itself).

    You are blind if you can’t see mass deportation going on. The Syrian crisis is the same thing by another name. It happens all the time and has been going on since the beginning of history. It happened in the US in recent history. Even Trump referred to the mass deportation of Mexicans only a few decades ago. In wartime, Japanese Americans were herded into camps. Native Americans know all too well inhumanity at the hands of the American government.

    In your bubble you can’t see how disgusting are the consequences when your views are enacted. This isn’t a debate about the finer points of scripture; this is about the difference between compassionate, moral government and institutional evil.

  • Look at more history. Muslims in the name of Allah invaded Europe as far as Tour France; there they fought Christian killers for Jehovah. And Muslims fought all the way to Vienna Austria.
    Etc.

    For most of the 1,300 years, Muslims have slaughtered heretics, those who reject Islam, have indulged in “honor” murders, etc.

    Islamic terrorism is only another repeat, not even near as terrible as their past slaughters.

  • #1 “Female Genital Mutilation is practiced by some Copts in Egypt, particularly in Upper Egypt, as a matter of assimilation to the Muslim majority.”

    #2 Because Christian fundamentalism also subjects women and girls to oppression.

    #3 There is also probably a factor in Africa itself. I don’t know of any fgm in Latin America or elsewhere.

    BUT my main point is that Islam is a false, harmful way of life for nearly everyone.

    Obviously, if Islam was the good religion so many people claim it to be, then it would never have allowed fgm.

    Ditto for Christianity.

  • I will be in the front row when your crowd tells the Jesus you purport to love how you passionately argued against unfair treatment of the world’s poor and oppressed while you did not stand up for unborn children because of Occam’s Razor. I know what he will say to you and so do you – “I do not know you.”

    Your political bent on these issues is of no interest to me as politics is corrupt and devoid of moral behavior. If you wish to change the way governments handle immigration and refugees then vote for better leaders. If you wish to change the way the world handles these issues then you will have to be alive when Jesus returns.

    You only pursue me because I have correctly pointed out to you that there is no moral equivalency between abortion and immigration. Ben’s blog is flawed by conflating the two and you are wrong to try to support it. As to my eyesight I would suggest it is better than yours because you lack the ability to see what is going on here in this country with the abortion of millions annually but rather pursue the emotionally satisfying path of acting like a champion for the world’s oppressed.

  • Herm

    I will respond as clearly as I am able as nothing more than a child of God studying under my Rabbi.

    Number one: Lack of compassion, empathy and forgiveness for any is the calloused heart that allows vile murder of all life, of all ages, of all potentials, of our own. When faced with triage as to decide in a timely manner who has the best chance of survival from the results of our best decisions the mind, not the heart, will make the surest choice. One without the other, heart and mind, life is unbalanced and a sure sign that we are not fully filled by the Spirit of God nor are exercising fully the spirit in God’s image graced us.

    Number two: Throughout the Bible there are clear allusions to taking in all aliens who come, by whatever means, who will honor the Decalogue written by the hand of God.

    Number three: There are no clear allusions throughout the Bible regarding parents terminating the life of their child prematurely. There is, of course, the test of God to Abraham to see if he would terminate the life of his adult child Isaac in sacrifice to Abraham’s God. No matter how you try to figure God’s purpose God made the demand, then rescinded it.

    Number four: Neither fetuses nor infants have an inane knowledge of good and evil beyond instinctive carnal survival. They are cute to their creators because that is the carnal way that otherwise helpless children survive by pulling at the heartstrings of their adult nurturer’s instincts. Our spiritual adult nurturers are mature enough with full perspective to love us all equally without cute. Children by definition are not developed enough in heart, mind, strength, knowledge, awareness, and judgment (just a few tools necessary) to survive life carnally or spiritually. Human beings all are not even in the infant stage of their spiritual childhood prepared to survive in the spirit without a total dependency on the Father and our adult Brother. We depend on looking to Them to grow as a newborn instinctively looks to a mother’s breast first to gain the nutrients necessary to grow beyond their then. Newborns don’t know of good and evil at all for that is much later in their development.

    Number five: The potential lives of fetuses, infants, toddlers, adolescents, adults and the elderly are equally as of potential value to all of God’s heart and mind. God is not without feelings and plans for any They know who live inside Their realm of responsible adult authority.

    Number six: Life carnally and/or spiritually is not as simple as fundamentalists try their hardest to make it seem and control others by. None of us can choose to control to a certainty that we or ours will live or die in the next moment, much less an eternity that none of us can begin to comprehend referenced from only earth.

    Conservatives on the other hand can’t even distinguished that it isn’t good stewardship to over populate the earth by the rhythm method, demanding hormone driven adolescent children preparing to leave the nest not have sexual relationships (when 200 years ago they were given in arranged marriages to have children of their own as early as 11 years old with undeveloped carnal knowledge), by making contraceptives unavailable, and by demanding all fetuses be brought to term counter to the advice of all reasonable certified practitioners of human medicine and the anguished conclusions of the parents. That is the same confused animal I see in my pets whose instincts conflict with their domestication which makes the results of their choices unhealthy, dangerous and too often destructive against their better wishes.

    Number seven: I can go on and on for there are far more arguments found in the Bible for those who know God’s word to speak from their hearts and minds, as little children born of God filled with the Spirit of truth, against making any life more important than another subject to our bereft judgment.

    note: Read Acts 7:37-51 closely to understand that the Pharisees, who sat in the Moses seat of authority at Jesus’ time of ministry on earth, never had anything to do with the sacrificial god of Ammon; Molek. While there, realize that the tabernacle to God’s design was the prophesy of the journey of the blood from the sacrificial lamb beginning at the fire and ending in the Holy of Holies, right on through Solomon’s duplicate model temple.

    Read Acts 4:31 to begin to know where and how to find the most faithful and divine interpreter for the WORD before, during and after the Bible. Look Him up!

    I, too, hope I have clarified a bit…

  • Jesus never differentiated between human beings. I understand you are speaking economically, but people in need are simply people, legal or not. They are deserving of help.

  • Thanks for the reply. I would simply say that the spirit of man enters at conception not at birth. Adam and Eve were
    brought to life by God with the breath of life. All the rest of us were born in the normal manner. There is no breath of life from God in our case just a slap to get us breathing on our own. We already have the spirit of man which is what differentiates us from animals and allows to reason and think.

    My simple point is that Ben’s point is wrong. Abortion and refugees are not comparable situations.

    Your point three does not hold for the same reason that Ben’s argument does not hold. Lev. 20:2, 1Kings 11:7 and Jer. 32:35 shows that the Israelites did indeed sacrifice their first born to Molech.

    So who do you think will fair better at the judgment: those who lack compassion for immigrants or this who kill unborn babies and teach other to do so? Better to be compassionate and and pro-life while you have the chance.

    Have a great day.

  • Herm

    Bob, thank you for a very respectful response. I am fully aware that this is an emotional subject that you are committed to. Thank you for not referring to me as the heartless ninny I would guess could be your first mental response.

    I disagree with many of your points but will stay on thread directly from Ben’s article. I truly cannot see how you refuse to compare the aborted and the refugees’, a helpless situation each, regarding the future of their lives at the behest of others in control to determine this critical part of their destiny.

    Ben stated the core of his thoughts in the following:

    At the core of what it should mean to be pro-life is the conviction that all life is sacred. But for those like Cruz who support the mass deportation of our undocumented brothers and sisters?

    Life isn’t sacred at all.

    Mass deportation of immigrants without taking into account individual considerations will definitely, no doubt, become a death sentence for some lives now dependent on our responsible control. Is not all life sacred, especially life that we have become responsible to (legal and illegal human life residing within the borders and wombs subject to our governing), equally?

    If we can compassionately empathize to save a yet unborn fetus, with no consideration of convenience or needs of any others even more closely involved, why are we unable to compassionately empathize to consider each life of each immigrant we can know under our control equally as sacred as that of an unknown fetus?

    You, too, have a great day.

  • Jim Eckland

    The Old Testament gets into it alittle more and really refers to two designations of foreigners. Some would be treated like Israelites and others that would not be. It also discusses the importance of enforcing the laws uniformly for all. The GOD of both testaments is still GOD.

  • Jim Eckland

    We now have established borders with laws and a nation has a right to protect it’s borders. Look what rampant immigration did to the American indian.

  • Jim Eckland

    Do you know of any? The native Indians in Massachusetts allied with the colonists because they needed help battle other indian nations !!

  • Herm

    What exactly did rampant immigration do to the American Indians and what does it have to do with mass deportation of immigrants already here, schooled and working?

  • If that is true, then there was no need for Jesus. The law would still be the law and we would still be sacrificing animals, stoning our rebellious children, etc. As Christians, we don’t do this. Jesus is our lord, not the Old Testament.

  • Jim Eckland

    We are still required to set up a Civil Government and to occupy til Jesus returns and our best information comes from the old testament

  • When did Jesus say to set up a civil government and occupy?

  • TaschTasch

    If these people have jobs and purchase things they are paying taxes. They are therefore not moochers stealing resources from American citizens.If you want to argue that they are taking jobs from Americans, then the problem is surely the employers who willfully employ undocumented or illegal aliens because they can more easily exploit them. Perhaps the demand for cheap labour should be addressed before you tackle the supply?

  • Jessica Lacy

    America’s founding values and the
    leadership traits that embodied them gave rise to the greatest nation on
    earth. Their attractive power enticed millions of immigrants to leave
    the comforts and security of their homelands for the promise of hope,
    opportunity, and a liberty the world had never known. They also
    unleashed an entrepreneurial spirit that created unparalleled prosperity
    and spawned the greatest generosity ever exhibited by a nation or its
    citizens.

    Upon this irrefutable premise, Rescue America
    creates clear and specific connections between the loss of our founding
    values and the current political, economic, and cultural problems. What
    is necessary, the book asserts, is a fundamental shift back toward a
    national embodiment of the three primary leadership qualities that
    sustain all lasting human institutions: gratitude, personal
    responsibility, and sacrifice. It is through the resurrection of these
    essential qualities in every American—and a rejection of the pervasive
    attitude of entitlement and culture of complaint—that the spirit of
    America will once again empower its citizens and inspire the world.

    Chris Salamone http://chrissalamone.com/ works to improve the lives of young people around the world through his many philanthropic endeavors Like holding
    Leadership programs for high School Students. Chris Salamone is a noted
    attorney, entrepreneur, social worker and author or two best seller books, one
    of them is Rescue America which focus on restructuring America.

  • Bones

    I think Chris Salamone needs to apply those values to himself given that he benefitted from his mate’s ponzi scheme……

    http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/news/the-rothstein-salamone-emails-6470082

    Physician, heal thyself.