Following Aslan (RJS)

Following Aslan (RJS) September 22, 2011

CS Lewis is a great story teller and there is much in his story telling that can, and should, provoke deeper thought. Lately I’ve been thinking about an incident in Prince Caspian, one of the Chronicles of Narnia books by CS Lewis. In this story Peter, Susan, Edmund and Lucy have returned to Narnia.  They are making their way to the Stone Table Hill along with the dwarf Trumpkin. But Narnia has changed and directions are unclear, and they are struggling to find the right path to follow. (excerpted from pp. 131-134)

“Look! Look! Look!” cried Lucy.

“Where? What?” asked everyone.

“The Lion,” said Lucy. “Aslan himself. Didn’t you see?” Her face had changed completely and her eyes shone.

“Do you really mean -?” began Peter.

“Where do you think you saw him?” asked Susan.

“Don’t talk like a grown-up,” said Lucy, stamping her foot. “I didn’t think I saw him. I saw him.”

“Where, Lu?” asked Peter.

“Right up there between those mountain ashes. No this side of the gorge. And up not down. Just opposite of the way you want to go. And he wanted us to go where he was – up there.”

Aslan, for those who don’t know the story, is the Christ figure in the Chronicles of Narnia. Well, no one else saw Aslan – and there was no reason to think that the direction Lucy was suggesting was right. If Lucy actually saw a lion they weren’t really sure it was Aslan – it might have been just a lion, and if that was the case they certainly didn’t want to go toward the lion, if there was a lion. Putting the matter to a vote the decision came down to the Peter, the High King. Lucy and Edmund were voting for up, Susan and Trumpkin for down.

“Down,” said Peter after a long pause. “I know Lucy may be right after all, but I can’t help it. We must do one or the other.”

So they set off to their right along the edge, downstream. And Lucy came last of the party, crying bitterly.

This kind of story plays out many times in our church – everyone is working toward the same goal, everyone wants to get to the finish line faithful to Christ. But there are multiple possible paths and no clear direction. What may be the right move in one situation may be the wrong move in another. What works in one town or with one group may not work with another. Playing the the “divine leading” trump card is viewed with skepticism. After all how do I know that you really did “see Aslan”? Or how do you know that I did – that it is not wishful thinking or selfish motivation?

Peter puts it bluntly – he can’t please everyone, but he has to do something, so he must do as he sees best. This is leadership.

How is anyone to know what to do in such a situation?

The story continues … the five of them, Peter, Susan, Lucy, Edmund, and Trumpkin waste a day working hard and wandering about, hitting dead ends, getting shot at, and eventually winding up back where they started. In the middle of the night Lucy is awakened by a voice calling her name and makes her way through the woods. (pp. 148-149)

“Aslan, Aslan. Dear Aslan,” sobbed Lucy. “At last.”

“Welcome, child,” he said.

“Aslan,” said Lucy, “you’re bigger.”

“That is because you are older, little one,” answered he.

“Not because you are?”

“I am not. But every year you grow, you will find me bigger.”

For a time she was so happy that she did not want to speak. But Aslan spoke.

“Lucy,” he said, “we must not lie here for long. You have work in hand, and much time has been lost today.”

“Yes, wasn’t it a shame?” said Lucy. “I saw you all right. They wouldn’t believe me. They’re all so – ”

From somewhere deep inside Aslan’s body there came the faintest suggestion of a growl.

“I’m sorry,” said Lucy, who understood some of his moods. “I didn’t mean to start slanging the others. But it wasn’t my fault anyway, was it?”

“Oh, Aslan,” said Lucy. “You don’t mean it was? How could I – I couldn’t have left the others and come up to you alone, how could I? Don’t look at me like that … oh well, I suppose I could. Yes, and it wouldn’t have been alone, I know, not if I was with you. But what would have been the good?”

Aslan said nothing.

Lucy goes back, wakes the others, and forces them to follow. Of course, she can’t really force them. She only does what she can and must do. She tells them what she saw, what she was told, and that, whatever they do, she must follow. Eventually Edmund sees Aslan, then Peter, then Susan, and finally Trumpkin.

This is a story, a fictional story, a children’s story. We can’t take the analogy with real life too far. Yet CS Lewis has a point, and he is trying to teach something about the Christian life and what it means to follow Christ. This example isn’t wrestling with what it means to follow Christ in the world, surrounded by unbelievers. Here I think, we would all agree – we should follow Christ whatever ” the world” may think. But this example should get us thinking about what it means to follow Christ within the church, with ordained authority (Peter) and well meaning people aiming for the same ultimate goal.

The message isn’t to follow authority, obey direction, move with the group consensus. In the words of CS Lewis through the character of Aslan (pp. 151):

“Now, child,” said Aslan, when they had left the trees behind them, “I will wait here. Go and wake the others and tell them to follow. If they will not, then you at least must follow me alone.”

Lucy is to follow Aslan – if Peter comes, if the others agree, great. But she is to follow Aslan and is without excuse if she does not follow.

Does God speak to and call people in the church individually?

What role does authority and leadership play?

There was a column awhile ago in one of the Christianity Today blogs that discussed leadership and authority (link here). The young member of the staff of a large church was leading an initiative on small groups, training people in a particular method and curriculum. One of the lay leaders felt that the method was not appropriate or not ideal and she could not follow it. As a result she started her own independent group. This undermined the authority of the leader, and caused friction and strife. The point of view of the writer, and the commenters was that, of course, the leader was right and the lay person wrong.  I struggle with this though because the implication is that the leadership is by definition right, and only they “see Aslan” and can see the path that should be taken.

Now I know that humans are fallible and fallen. The fractious nature of many people is a real problem – the incident above is one that can not be judged on a short excerpt. Conflict in church is a real and devastating problem. But it brings up for me a much bigger question.

How can we know who is Peter and who is Lucy, seeing Aslan with a command to follow?

More importantly how are we to know if we are Lucy, seeing Aslan or Susan, wanting to take what appears the easier and more comfortable route?

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  • Peter

    The way you pose your questions at the end reminds me of a book that I have always remembered as instructional in these matters. “A Tale of Three Kings” is the title if I remember correctly. Summation: Every time you have a leader and you think, “He’s just like Saul and I’m just like David,” be careful! Perhaps you are more like Absolom and your leader is more like David! Every time you’re in a leadership position and think, “These people around me are all like Absolom, but I am just like David,” be careful! They may be more like David and you like Saul. A friend of mine hated the book, interpreting it as promoting mindless submission, but I hear a call to humility.

  • Thanks for this post. CS Lewis was a wise person, there’s a great deal of truth hidden away in his stories. And perhaps more to the point, he often draws us along a trail of thinking for ourselves.

    My experience has been that when I was young I rejected leadership in the body in a churlish and immature way. I still reject leader*ship*, but not leaders. But I think we can all be leaders and we can all follow.

    In the end, in our leading and in our following, the necessity is that we hear the still small voice of the Spirit. It’s easy to drown him out with our noisy activity and planning. But he whispers, ‘This is the way – walk in in it’.

    And how exactly do we hear? It’s impossible to define, isn’t it! But we know when we do.

  • Dana

    I struggle with this all the time. When I was younger, I assumed that our church leaders were wise people who sacrificed their own time (money, ambition, whatever) for the good of the church. As I edged nearer to positions of leadership myself, I found that opinion changing.

    I have volunteered my time as a leader in non-church organizations and have had very good experiences. This has not been true in a church setting and I don’t know why.

    At this point, I am slowly extricating myself from ministry. I no longer buy into the notions of leadership that seem to drive the church, and I feel I need to get out of the way so others can get on with their leading and following.

    Lucy, Peter, Susan, Saul, David, Absolom. Who have I been? All of them, I guess.

  • Bob

    These are tough questions without clear answers. I know in my last 20 years of life these questions have been bouncing around in my head. I’ve learned to respond to what’s deepest inside of me out of last resort. Trusting that the HS is keeping me on the right path and out of apostasy. How do you crique the Magisteriam by working within or starting a new church

  • MD

    “This undermined the authority of the leader, and caused friction and strife.”
    the leader understood him- herself to have organizational authority. would this have happened if the church were not understood to be an organization with an inherent hierarchical authority structure?
    imo, we must get to the place in the church where we understand the church to be something other than an organization, and leadership and authority as two distinct entities.

  • mick

    Good reflection. I think there is wisdom in Lewis’s words. Word’s I have wrestled with in recent years. Aslan’s call to follow was not based on who’s right or more spiritual but on listening obedience. He makes it clear this is to be done with courage and humility. There is to be no self pity, martyrdom or judging the position of others. It is also implied that Aslan would have led the rest to himself even if Lucy would have went alone. It reminds me of Jesus words to Peter in John (who Lucy was like) when Peter asks Jesus about John’s future: “if he were to remain until I return, what is that to you, you must follow me.

  • T

    Does God meaningfully communicate with all believers? Yes. And there is a time to submit to others in Christ’s name, and a time to follow Christ and buck human authority. Wisdom is clear that a multitude of counselors is generally best. But we also have plenty of biblical examples where the majority, perhaps even all, of our human advisors are wrong and we must follow our convictions about what God has said.

    I’m actually doing a training this weekend for our church that is centered on welcoming the Spirit and partnering with him as we interact with others, both in conversation and prayer. In part of that training, I mention that for those of us who grew up in the West, there is not just a slight resistance, but generally a surprisingly powerful disdain for the idea that the Holy Spirit is strongly and personally active in and through people (including ourselves) on a routine basis. Another part of that training is that two are still stronger than one. I frequently share how I think God is leading me with others for feedback and wisdom. Promoting listening to the Spirit is not favoring individualism or institutionalism. The Spirit, both spontaneous insight and fruit that took years to mature, is essential for both individual and communal decision-making, if we’re talking about Christ’s Church.

    To me the question of discerning God’s leading should be pursued much the same way we arrive at theological conclusions generally. It is both/and, for the most part, with Spirit and community, even community leaders. But we don’t simply take what our leaders teach as gospel (or I hope we don’t). We can’t. Luther’s famous stand is one we all make in some respects. What I generally see lacking is a culture that encourages individual ownership and responsibility, and one that is strengthened through and within deep communal discussion and even patient and prayerful discussion over areas of disagreement or partial vision. We are too geared toward effeciency in decision-making and not enough toward growth through individual and communal work in discerning the Spirit together.

  • It’s a tricky balance. I’m one of those people who lean toward the idea that Christians need to come to consensus as much as possible — of course, that’s with the assumption that we’re all trying to follow Jesus, and consensus will smooth out any differences we have that are ultimately due to individual interpretations, personalities, biases, and so forth. But it could very well be that none of us are following Jesus; that we’re each following our own best judgment, and mean well, for all the good that does. I’d hope that more people in our churches are listening to Him than not; I tend to find this the case, which is why I prefer consensus.

  • I wonder if being in community is so much richer and diverse than we imagine. In community we really do need an ongoing commitment to each other. How we participate in and through that needs to be open to ways we may not have imagined.

    If Lucy would have attended to her sense of Aslan’s call, as in following through, think what effect that may have had on the others, in the story.

  • An important part often missing in many churches is leaders being open to God’s moving and leading in the church. And trying to bless and direct what others want to do in terms of ministry, or activity. Direct in the sense of facilitate, I’m thinking.

  • Liz K.

    Barth has been incredibly helpful for me in thinking through issues of leadership. In the fine print of Church Dogmatics 2.1 there is a section where he talks about a certain kind of leader in the context of his discussion of corporate election. Barth believes the Christ is both the God who elects and the one who is elected. The election of the community (church) is mediated through Christ. For Barth there is a kind of leader that sets themself up as elect instead of the communinty. They intentionally or unintentionally try to usurp Christ’s role as the mediator between God and the community and in so doing become an anti-Christ. I thought Barth was being overly harsh and overly influenced by his WWII context when I first read this. Then the church I was attending had a change in leadership. The new pastor started talking about all the things he had accomplished and all the places HE would lead our church. Eventually his ego ran that church into the ground. That experience made me take a second look at Barth and I realized he was on to something. When a leader that tries to be Christ (even with the best of intentions) they will inevitably fail and do damage even if the ministry appears successful. What we need are those who try to point people to Christ. Unfortunately, most of our leadership models elevate the principles Barth is criticising. They focus on getting and keeping followers, getting everyone on board with your vision, etc. The right kind of church leader will be like Christ, but will not try to BE Christ to their community. Instead they will help their community discern what God is doing in their midst and will provide resources to help them follow. Sometimes that may be a program, but a leader who knows that Christ is the mediator and not them will be secure enough to work peacefully with those who differ. Like John the Baptist in the copy of the Isenheim Altarpiece Barth had in his study, they will be the kind of leader that stands to the side and points to the center–the crucified Christ. ( So I think part of the process in discerning who is in the role of Peter and Lucy, is looking at where the people involved are “standing” in relation to Christ–are they to the side, or are they trying to stand in the center attempting to be to the community what only Jesus can be? Even well-meaning people can be standing in the wrong place.

  • Chris W

    Liz, thanks so much for that thoughtful reflection. I really appreciated it!

  • I’m not sure how it would apply in the linked story, but if the church begins to see itself as more organism than organization, it would change the entire concept of headship, or leadership. This came up in our summer camp several years back when the new director got mad about something I had done in my position as treasurer. I pointed out to her that we are supposed to trust one another, not insist that every decision must go through certain people, etc. It must have been a leading of the Spirit, because i usually tend to cringe and retreat in such situations. But doesn’t it make sense? If we are the body of Christ, He is the head, not whoever is leading at the moment. Perhaps they are part of the nervous system, sometimes giving commands and at other times constantly in communication with the organs and limbs. If only commands are given, then the leader will not know that things are not working well because he is not listening.

    As for going it alone, I think the bible is clear, even looking back as far as Noah and Abraham, that there are occasions where God will call us to do something in following Him that appears foolish to those around us. Yes, it is wise to test that out in prayer before changing direction, but the important thing is following Jesus wherever He is leading us.

  • rjs

    Peter (#1),

    Thanks for that comparison. I would probably chafe a bit like your friend because it seems to me that too often the implication is “mindless submission,” but we really need to examine all the time whether we are David, Saul, or Absalom.

  • Joseph

    All of these comments seem to ignore that the Apostle Paul himself identified the need for qualified leaders to oversee the doctrine, direction, and discipline of the church (1 Timothy 3 in particular but all of 1 & 2 Timothy in general; also Titus 1). Furthermore, the writer of Hebrews calls believers to “Obey your leaders and submit to them.”. He doesn’t say, submit because they are always right. We should submit because they are leaders who are called to look after our souls. Our leaders may get it wrong sometimes and may have some jacked up issues they are working through. But if they are earnestly weekly to follow Christ, we should submit to them out of humility. The definition of submission means is a combination of “sub” “mission” which means to come under someone else’s mission. If we agreed with our leaders all the time, it wouldn’t be called submission. Then the text would say “as long as you are on the same page, listen to your leaders, otherwise, you should just do your own thing, because you’re probably hearing from God – but they aren’t.”

  • rjs


    I don’t think most of the comments are ignoring the fact that God calls leaders and teachers. But we are certainly all called to discernment.

  • T


    I’m assuming the submission you’re advocating has limits, even though you only mention one: if our leaders aren’t ‘earnestly weekly [trying] to follow Christ.’ Frankly, that one seems pretty unworkable. How exactly do we judge if a leader isn’t earnestly weekly trying to follow Christ? And if we determine they aren’t doing so on a given week, do we put submission on hold? I doubt you hold to this exception, but I’m sure you do have a limit to submission to church leaders . . . which brings us back to the issue of the post. Yes, generally we submit out of humility, but not always and under all circumstances.

  • Thanks for this, RJS … this is one of my favorite scenes in all the books!

    For me, the point is that Lucy was the youngest and the first one of the Pevensie children to enter Narnia learn about Aslan. She is the representation of child-like faith. And as much as she is part of the four, she is also responsible for her relationship with Aslan. If he calls, she must answer.

    Too many people abdicate their individual obedience to Christ to some leader or other. When I chose to walk away from traditional church pastoral leadership, it was an act of obedience FOR ME. There are others who have not been called away, and I trust they are being obedient.

    As long as we have mixed up ideas of leadership and power and authority, those who are “followers” will struggle with following Jesus or following men.

    I’m with Lucy all the way….


  • rjs

    Thanks Peggy, This scene is one that has stuck with me over the years.

    I struggle with the idea that Joseph seems to advocate in his comment that, sub “mission” means submitting our view of the mission of the church to some specific leader’s mission in the church.

    One thing that strikes me is that every leader should be intentionally be raising up peers, brothers and sisters before Christ. This means making equals out of people not acquiring followers, and it means face-to-face interaction not top-down flow of information and guidance. A charismatic individual can acquire followers and rally the troops independent of the righteousness of the goal (human history teaches this rather effectively). The “fruit” of a good leader is the quality of the influence on and significance of the growth and maturation in those who follow.

  • Joseph

    @Peggy: I would say anyone who has made an “individual” decision to wall away from the local church has walked away from the very purpose of their calling. We are called to build up the body, suffer with the body, and love the body, not leave it. To neglect your role in the local church is to passively ignore over 48 scriptures in the NT that refer to our calling, not just to Christ, but to His people, the church.

    In my first post, I wasn’t advocating blind, non-discerning, submission to corrupt or ignorant church leaders. However, this blog gave the example of a lady who started her own Bible study simply because she didn’t agree with how her appointed leader handled his.

    At what point is this considered divisive? At what point should the person submit to their leaders? What exactly does Hebrews 13:17 mean?

    Most of these responses are filled with hyper individualism and disregard the corporate nature of the body of Christ. We submit to parents because they are our parents. We submit to leaders because they are our leaders.

    Of course we don’t submit to them when what they are asking us requires us to commit sin or rebel against God. But is doing a bible study curriculum different than we would personally do it causing sin?

  • Dana

    Joseph – I guess I don’t understand that a leader in a church I attend is my “appointed leader”.

    After 20+ years in children’s ministry, I have a list of things that I won’t do/teach in the classroom. If I were to be told to do/teach any of them by an “appointed leader” in my church, I would step down from my position rather than submit. Stepping back from a position of leadership because of conflict is always an option, but it also shows that the “appointed” leadership is not being honored. It’s a tough situation, but I would follow my conscience.

    I do understand your concern with hyperindividualism and disregard for the corporate nature of the body of Christ. It troubles me also, but I feel responsible for what I do. I never feel like some other “authority” carries the responsibility for my actions.

  • DRT

    Joseph, Sub mission actually comes from Sub mit and that, obviously, means that we should follow Mit Romney.

    But seriously, when I had a problem with the mission of my church I did not walk away. I resigned my posts in protest, and then pursued with the other leaders a remedy, but then they publicly ousted me from the body. Not exactly something that we should submit to easily.

    The real world is all nuance in that regard, not rules.

  • #1,#14,

    At my church about a year ago, those of us on the leadership team were encouraged to read that same book. Like your friend, Peter, I hated the book also. I can respect that we should be humble and not presume to judge one another, but that book had a premise behind church leadership that I just don’t believe. I think it ignores that God never wanted Israel to have a King originally. He wanted to be their king. It was only when they insisted on having a king that he then insisted that they have his appointed king. The book leaned toward submission to church authority on a basis that is entirely heirarchical, and I just couldn’t stomach that.

    Right on. Organism vs. Organization. I think this was Jesus’ vision of the Kingdom, where he was the head, and where his law was written on all of our hearts.

    Joseph, I don’t know how exactly the best way to reconcile the passages you mention with the vision of God and of Jesus for his followers, which I have heretofore mentioned, but I would posit that there are other ways of interpreting those passages. I think there is a time and a place for authority and a context for submission. Such contexts are, in my opinion, cases where differences in taste and opinion (as opposed to that of hearing God’s voice or following one’s conscience) threaten to cause quarrels.

    For an example in a more relevant context, I have been involved in many worship teams over the years. I’ve been a leader (sometimes a strong one and sometimes a weak one) and I’ve been a follower. There have been many times when disagreements and contentious opinions cause problems, and it is necessary in these contexts for an appointed leader to take charge and for the others to follow that leader. In the church I’m at now, we have a different leader for the worship music on different sundays, one of which is in charge in an overarching manner, but during practices the other leaders are often in other positions in the band while one comes to the fore and directs the practice, the style and flow, the choosing of songs, the timing, etc. When I am a leader I take the reins and tell people what to do, what to play where, as needed. While another person is the leader, I follow their directions and sometimes offer up helpful suggestions for their consideration. The others do the same. We’ve gotten so used to is that when someone comes in who doesn’t know how to take charge in this way, we have trouble getting anything done with a group of three or four people who are off and on leaders, because each of us knows that when it’s not our turn to lead, we submit.

    This is example is one that I think illustrates the need for church authority – not as an appointed overseer of all God’s affairs, but as a focal point for actually getting things done and doing them as well as possible without quarrels and unnecessary arguments. But if I felt that the worship experience at our church was not what it should be, I would first talk to the overarching worship leader, and if things did not change as I thought God wanted them to, then I would offer to do something else on my own, and if that was not accepted – and I believed it was what God wanted – I would detach myself from that authority and follow my sense of the Spirit or my conscience or what have you.

    I just don’t think church authority should be so grasping and heirarchical as to prevent individuals branching out according to their view of the Holy Spirit. If views are incompatible, it is not the end of the world for them to go their separate ways, much like Paul and Barnabas.

  • rjs


    Thanks for your very thoughtful comment. The reminder that human kingship was the less ideal choice from the beginning is a particularly relevant point, and has me thinking about this a little differently.

    Certainly there have always been leaders, and the new testament continues to assume that we will have and need leaders. But leadership isn’t by decree, rather by corporate affirmation – and in servanthood, not kingship. We acknowledge the corporate affirmation idea in the ordination and submission of the leaders – something missing in many nondenominational (and even some denominational) evangelical settings.

  • @Joseph #20

    Wow, brother. You don’t know me or any of my story, but you threw me under the bus pretty neatly. RJS and others who have been long time Jesus Creeders will remember that my decision was not hyper-individualism or rebellion. Rather is was a very long and difficult process of discernment — and not a process I went through alone. Dana and I go back a long way here, too. I follow Jesus as King and call no man Father but Our Father. Laziness sometimes flourishes under the guise of obedience — both for the leader and for the follower.
    Sorry I will have to post and run — thanks, again, RJS, for the post.

  • elle

    I don’t normally comment… but I was actually thinking about this story all day today! This story has meant a lot to me personally.

    Normally I dismiss comments that people make claiming God told them to do this or that. Leaders in my old church used to say,”If God tells you to do something, do it, regardless of what anyone else thinks.” Well thanks guys, I mean really, that’s great, but He hasn’t told me a whole lot lately. He spoke to you in your quiet time this morning? Fantastic. Glad He doesn’t feel like talking to me today. (So maybe I was a little cynical.) On my journey with God, I’ve found very few times when He has given me straight up direction outside of the Bible.

    That had been my experience up till about a month ago. I had a huge decision ahead of me with two equally valid options. I honestly don’t know that God really cared which one I chose because neither would have been any better than the other. But as soon as I made my decision, which a few close people in my life were not excited about, I knew it was what I needed to do. Me, the person who can’t make decisions, knew what direction to go in. I was more certain about it than I have ever been. It hurt not to have the support of those few individuals because they matter to me. It was in that time that story of Aslan kept playing in my mind. There was this inner knowing that beyond any doubt He wanted me to follow Him down this path, even though I didn’t know what it would mean for my future. And even if those friends never see the Lion who asked me down this road, I am holding onto the voice that whispers for me to follow Him.

    I can’t believe I’m telling that story. I know I must sound like one of the crazies thinks God tells them what color shoes to wear. I don’t think it works like that. I have been involved with church leaders who were put on pedestals and idolized. Any word out of their mouths was from God Himself. That’s dangerous and was really hurtful for me. They would say God spoke to them and called them too. Because experiences with God are so intimate and personal, how are we to know?

    I guess me only answer to that would be what the result of the decision is. Does it lead the person to be more loving, more compassionate, more Jesus-like? Does it lead them to condemn, to judge, to be isolated or choose to continue is patterns that aren’t life-giving? I know Jesus would never ask me to things that wouldn’t work towards redemption and hope, even if they are hard and scary.

    Just my thoughts, I’m obviously not a theologian. 🙂

  • #26
    I’ve been in the same boat most of my life. I don’t think you sound crazy at all. Even in the story, Lucy was the only one who actually saw Aslan. I think it was natural for the others to be skeptical. Edmund, in the story, seemed to me to be the wisest one. He remembered how trustworthy his sister was and how nobody had believed her when she first claimed to have stumbled into Narnia. I personally like how he didn’t know what to believe, but chose to trust Lucy because she had proven herself trustworthy. In my life, there are only a few people I truly trust to believe they’ve heard God’s voice when they say so, though I am often surrounded by people who talk that way, but when those few people say it, that’s when I trust it.

    RJS, I also want to thank you for posting your thoughts on this story. It is so layered and full of a depth of questions for how we’re supposed to live and follow. Or lead. Great topic.