Any of us can only talk about our Gods from our personal perspective/experience and that is it , Even though my relationship to Hekate is not exactly the same as yours i have read and enjoyed your posts and learnt a few things about Hekate too . The Gods we approach are individuals and we are individuals If we all had the same approach and the Gods had the same response we would be christians 🙂
Exactly!
I dispise the ‘holier/smarter than thou’ battalion in these groups. Also there are those who get butt-hurt if you don’t agree with their beliefs. I’ve been kicked off groups by vindictive Admins who believed their word was the right thing and any varying viewpoints were blasphemy.
We have a common enemy, and that is rigid conformity. We need diverse viewpoints and experiences because no one of us knows everything, and we benefit from collaberation. A friend posted your link in a group I frequent, and this viewpoint is sorely needed there.
Thank you so much for all the work you put into this statement and guideline.
Thank you! Somebody finally said it out loud.
I consider myself a Buddhist and a Pagan. ive left both groups because of many reasons, and it boils down to this: everyone is an individual. you and another person can both be Nichiren Buddhists with NeoPaganism, but that doesnt mean anything, there might be enough differences to keep you and another person bickering. that is life.
Exactly…everyone is an individual. Namaste.
You are most welcome!
Well said! We do indeed have a common enemy in rigid dogma!
“My beliefs are as valid as yours” only works when there is no empirical evidence for either belief set. It isn’t really a good argument. When someone tries to argue against your beliefs using their (unsubstantiated) dogma, they are being as logical or illogical as you are holding to your beliefs using your unsubstantiated dogma.
But that is a problem in all religious belief, isn’t it? Christians do the same thing. Pagans do the same thing.
Your blog has been such a light to me. Ive spent many nights reading through posts. I’m new and learning. Someone coming from organized religion. We’ve got plenty of judgement there too. Hecate has been with me. I see it now, thanks to your torch.
Keep keeping the keys.
Perhaps we should all say, “my beliefs are as invalid as yours.”
BTW, even Atheists do the same thing.
People don’t realize that by definition Atheism is still a religion: a belief system based on no emperical evidence.
“Don’t Tell Me What to Think…” It seems to me that in Neo-Paganism there is no room for what Isaac Bonewits called the “One-True and only Way” type of attitude. It’s ALL based on SOMEONE’S individual personal gnosis. Cyndi, I’m glad you came right out and gave those trolls what-for. Stick to your guns, girl!
No. The definition of atheism does NOT say it is a religion. What sort of strange dictionary are you using?
The dictionary used by Google defines atheism as “disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
synonyms: nonbelief, disbelief, unbelief, irreligion, skepticism, doubt, agnosticism; nihilism”
There is no “belief system” within atheism. All they ask is that you provide evidence for what you claim to believe.
Please, get it right. This persistent lying by purveyors of religion about atheism simply testifies that religion spreads its doctrine by lies. You don’t really want that, do you?
What is the emperical evidence to believe in the disbelief of deity? Why don’t atheists just ignore theists? Why do you have to establish a cateory of people called ‘atheists?’ What are you trying to prove or disprove?
What should atheists care what others believe, so long as it isn’t forced upon you? Why even bother asking for proof from those you consider engaging in fantasy? A futile course of action.
Dictionary definitions chance with the social tides. Empericaly provable.
“Lying?” That’s pretty strong. It seems you are claiming that everyone who believes differently from you is lying.
BTW, I am not a “purveyors of religion,” I merely seek truth, and withold judgement until I am shown the truth. (Agnostic)
I’m just using basic logic. Atheism is a disbelief in deity. ” Disbelief: inability or refusal to accept that something is true or real.” Means even disbelief is a belief system. NO emperical evidence to prove deity is not real. Same for flying saucers and mermaids. I don’t see any aufos or amermaids, what’s so special that theisim has to be singled out?
Theists can also ask that you provide evidence for what you claim to believe. There is none.
Stop hiding behind fake titles.
Scientists ask for proof or evidence. Why not just call yourselves scientists?
I really understand what your saying here for sure. When I was a baby Pagan there was even a term (maybe it is still used, I don’t know) “fluffy bunny” that was used to crush the spirit of people like me who wanted to ask questions and learn. But never ever were allowed an opinion right or wrong. we were just fluffy bunnies valueless, I wonder how many people just stopped searching all together? We do bring baggage from our personal experience’s, and while some of it is bad not all of it is. I was raised a Jehovah’s Witness most of my upbringing was pure crap, but I also was given a deep unshakable faith in the divine, god and I still have that. Just that I have come to the realization that God for me is a Goddess and She is everything, and I am Her son. thanks for your blog it is very important to me and many others I’m sure.
I’m gong to raise a small point but an important one I think. That is, the use of thinking and believing as interchangeable in this thought provoking article. I kept turning it around in my mind and thinking – this is what fundamentalist Christians (and other fundamentalists) think. That their beliefs are as valid as anyone’s. That concepts that might better be placed in the realm of thinking – the world in seven days? That believing in one god or goddess or nothing entitles one to trash people with different beliefs? That I think is a problem on this planet. Believe is a heart action. Think is a mind action. Sometimes they agree; sometimes not. If your beliefs endanger my liberty as a human being (and endanger the whole planet) then your beliefs are dangerous. “Be fruitful and multiply and have dominion over the earth…” Well, we humans have accomplished that. Kinda a dangerous thought, don’t you think? One I’m willing to challenge as basically insane.
OK. I’ll rant on them. I believe in what touches my heart and takes me in a direction that is useful to me and others. I believe in the goddess/es and gods in all their forms as they arose in their own cultures. Sometimes I experience moments of connection with that energy. I think, after reading Sitchin and Gardner, that humans were bio-engineered and that their original goddesses with wrap-around black eyes (Isis in some carvings) probably actually looked just like that because the Visitors to this planet – who brought fire and then pottery kilns and bricks and money and community schooling – looked like that. I think they really were here. I’ve seen enough pictures of goddesses and flaming wheels etc. Most left. Some stayed because they liked the humans for all their rough ways and had offspring here.
As for me and the Craft: I was an intuitive little witch, making circles of white pebbles before I attended school. Later I had formal training, was in a training coven, moved to Canada and practiced with a circle of women for twenty-five years. We never used “recipes”. Now there’s only a few of us – some have drifted away to be 24/7 grandmothers or were taken in by another religion/spiritual practice that does not allow practicing any other way. Overall I totally agree and am happy to see in print your article/blog.
HEY! You know what I think? I think…
YOU are AWESOME. 🙂 Hekate hasn’t called me, that I’m aware of, but I love your blogging & read it regularly, because hearing multiple Pagan insights is really important to me. I fully and totally love what you’re saying- we’ve all gotten hit by (what I like to call) the Dogmatics from time to time. We all need to be individuals, and everybody should be allowed to develop their own relationships with their deities- WITHOUT being judged, battered, or harassed.
HI! Well, thanks! I love the term “dogmatics”! I am always making up new words like this! One of my regular readers asked me if something was a typo or if I was just making up yet another new word. Thanks for the feedback. I love hearing from readers, especially those who read my blog even though they have a different approach.
Hi Cristina! It’s lovely to hear from you. Please feel free to contact me on Facebook if there’s anything I can do to help you along your path.
Thanks, Teresa! Great Bonewits reference!
Thank you! I’ve just followed you a message!
Hi Paulette,
Thanks for raising the point about the important differences between thinking and believing. Thinking can be a very academic exercise, but I was discussing the thinking we do about our beliefs. This sort of thinking is very emotional and experiential if we let it be that way, or it can be very dogmatic. In my experience, a personal belief system is usually the result of serious inquiry and study rather than the blind acceptance of a religion. I thoroughly enjoyed reading your comments.
Hi JA,
I think “fluffy bunny” is still being used out there, by someone! She is everything, indeed. Thank you for your comments.
Hello,
Empiricism is based on the ability to observe a phenomenon and collect information about the phenomenon in a systematic way. It is inherently difficult to collect “evidence” about beliefs in a way that reflects positivist methods (which is what I think you’re referring to as empirical). But, it’s not impossible. At any rate, my beliefs are mine and I don’t need anything except my own empirical evidence to support them. Thanks for taking the time to comment.
Spirit, I tend to mostly agree with you that atheism can be a belief system, at least by some people who self-define as atheists. I think atheists come in many different types, just like everyone else. Now, can we stop being mean and have an adult conversation?
My beliefs are just as valid as yours
No, they’re not. You believe in obvious nonsense, which is not as valid as a perspective grounded in reality. Try again, though.
Epic FAIL!
Typically silly answer. Try again, genius.
I am sitting back, enjoying this (YOU), and FANNING YOUR FLAME !!! I think you and I would greatly get along, just because of how we think. And that is just it; WE THINK !!!! Blessed Be (No, Not a Wiccan in modern terms, but wiccan (old english witch) in the original term. Practice Witchcraft in and of my terms, and my worship of God and Goddess in the same.)
Was not quite sure where your post was going, but it ended good. Bless You Paulette !
You are wrong. I am friends with a few atheists, and even they realize that, by their own choosing of BELIEVING there is no
god/goddess, after-life, soul that lives on, that is also A BELIEF. One can not have it both ways.
Quick on the remarks, yet fails on any solid target. There are those in every group.
Children will play. “But I’m NOT a child; I am an adult”.
Do you have anything actually useful to say or are you content to offer silly platitudes and nonsense?
Do you have anything actually useful to say or are you just going to continue being a malignant narcissistic troll?
Keeping Her Keys
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Any of us can only talk about our Gods from our personal perspective/experience and that is it , Even though my relationship to Hekate is not exactly the same as yours i have read and enjoyed your posts and learnt a few things about Hekate too . The Gods we approach are individuals and we are individuals If we all had the same approach and the Gods had the same response we would be christians 🙂
Exactly!
I dispise the ‘holier/smarter than thou’ battalion in these groups. Also there are those who get butt-hurt if you don’t agree with their beliefs. I’ve been kicked off groups by vindictive Admins who believed their word was the right thing and any varying viewpoints were blasphemy.
We have a common enemy, and that is rigid conformity. We need diverse viewpoints and experiences because no one of us knows everything, and we benefit from collaberation. A friend posted your link in a group I frequent, and this viewpoint is sorely needed there.
Thank you so much for all the work you put into this statement and guideline.
Thank you! Somebody finally said it out loud.
I consider myself a Buddhist and a Pagan. ive left both groups because of many reasons, and it boils down to this: everyone is an individual. you and another person can both be Nichiren Buddhists with NeoPaganism, but that doesnt mean anything, there might be enough differences to keep you and another person bickering. that is life.
Exactly…everyone is an individual. Namaste.
You are most welcome!
Well said! We do indeed have a common enemy in rigid dogma!
“My beliefs are as valid as yours” only works when there is no empirical evidence for either belief set. It isn’t really a good argument. When someone tries to argue against your beliefs using their (unsubstantiated) dogma, they are being as logical or illogical as you are holding to your beliefs using your unsubstantiated dogma.
But that is a problem in all religious belief, isn’t it? Christians do the same thing. Pagans do the same thing.
Your blog has been such a light to me. Ive spent many nights reading through posts. I’m new and learning. Someone coming from organized religion. We’ve got plenty of judgement there too. Hecate has been with me. I see it now, thanks to your torch.
Keep keeping the keys.
Perhaps we should all say, “my beliefs are as invalid as yours.”
BTW, even Atheists do the same thing.
People don’t realize that by definition Atheism is still a religion: a belief system based on no emperical evidence.
“Don’t Tell Me What to Think…” It seems to me that in Neo-Paganism there is no room for what Isaac Bonewits called the “One-True and only Way” type of attitude. It’s ALL based on SOMEONE’S individual personal gnosis. Cyndi, I’m glad you came right out and gave those trolls what-for. Stick to your guns, girl!
No. The definition of atheism does NOT say it is a religion. What sort of strange dictionary are you using?
The dictionary used by Google defines atheism as “disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
synonyms: nonbelief, disbelief, unbelief, irreligion, skepticism, doubt, agnosticism; nihilism”
There is no “belief system” within atheism. All they ask is that you provide evidence for what you claim to believe.
Please, get it right. This persistent lying by purveyors of religion about atheism simply testifies that religion spreads its doctrine by lies. You don’t really want that, do you?
What is the emperical evidence to believe in the disbelief of deity? Why don’t atheists just ignore theists? Why do you have to establish a cateory of people called ‘atheists?’ What are you trying to prove or disprove?
What should atheists care what others believe, so long as it isn’t forced upon you? Why even bother asking for proof from those you consider engaging in fantasy? A futile course of action.
Dictionary definitions chance with the social tides. Empericaly provable.
“Lying?” That’s pretty strong. It seems you are claiming that everyone who believes differently from you is lying.
BTW, I am not a “purveyors of religion,” I merely seek truth, and withold judgement until I am shown the truth. (Agnostic)
I’m just using basic logic. Atheism is a disbelief in deity. ” Disbelief: inability or refusal to accept that something is true or real.” Means even disbelief is a belief system. NO emperical evidence to prove deity is not real. Same for flying saucers and mermaids. I don’t see any aufos or amermaids, what’s so special that theisim has to be singled out?
Theists can also ask that you provide evidence for what you claim to believe. There is none.
Stop hiding behind fake titles.
Scientists ask for proof or evidence. Why not just call yourselves scientists?
I really understand what your saying here for sure. When I was a baby Pagan there was even a term (maybe it is still used, I don’t know) “fluffy bunny” that was used to crush the spirit of people like me who wanted to ask questions and learn. But never ever were allowed an opinion right or wrong. we were just fluffy bunnies valueless, I wonder how many people just stopped searching all together? We do bring baggage from our personal experience’s, and while some of it is bad not all of it is. I was raised a Jehovah’s Witness most of my upbringing was pure crap, but I also was given a deep unshakable faith in the divine, god and I still have that. Just that I have come to the realization that God for me is a Goddess and She is everything, and I am Her son. thanks for your blog it is very important to me and many others I’m sure.
I’m gong to raise a small point but an important one I think. That is, the use of thinking and believing as interchangeable in this thought provoking article. I kept turning it around in my mind and thinking – this is what fundamentalist Christians (and other fundamentalists) think. That their beliefs are as valid as anyone’s. That concepts that might better be placed in the realm of thinking – the world in seven days? That believing in one god or goddess or nothing entitles one to trash people with different beliefs? That I think is a problem on this planet. Believe is a heart action. Think is a mind action. Sometimes they agree; sometimes not. If your beliefs endanger my liberty as a human being (and endanger the whole planet) then your beliefs are dangerous. “Be fruitful and multiply and have dominion over the earth…” Well, we humans have accomplished that. Kinda a dangerous thought, don’t you think? One I’m willing to challenge as basically insane.
OK. I’ll rant on them. I believe in what touches my heart and takes me in a direction that is useful to me and others. I believe in the goddess/es and gods in all their forms as they arose in their own cultures. Sometimes I experience moments of connection with that energy. I think, after reading Sitchin and Gardner, that humans were bio-engineered and that their original goddesses with wrap-around black eyes (Isis in some carvings) probably actually looked just like that because the Visitors to this planet – who brought fire and then pottery kilns and bricks and money and community schooling – looked like that. I think they really were here. I’ve seen enough pictures of goddesses and flaming wheels etc. Most left. Some stayed because they liked the humans for all their rough ways and had offspring here.
As for me and the Craft: I was an intuitive little witch, making circles of white pebbles before I attended school. Later I had formal training, was in a training coven, moved to Canada and practiced with a circle of women for twenty-five years. We never used “recipes”. Now there’s only a few of us – some have drifted away to be 24/7 grandmothers or were taken in by another religion/spiritual practice that does not allow practicing any other way. Overall I totally agree and am happy to see in print your article/blog.
HEY! You know what I think? I think…
YOU are AWESOME. 🙂 Hekate hasn’t called me, that I’m aware of, but I love your blogging & read it regularly, because hearing multiple Pagan insights is really important to me. I fully and totally love what you’re saying- we’ve all gotten hit by (what I like to call) the Dogmatics from time to time. We all need to be individuals, and everybody should be allowed to develop their own relationships with their deities- WITHOUT being judged, battered, or harassed.
HI! Well, thanks! I love the term “dogmatics”! I am always making up new words like this! One of my regular readers asked me if something was a typo or if I was just making up yet another new word. Thanks for the feedback. I love hearing from readers, especially those who read my blog even though they have a different approach.
Hi Cristina! It’s lovely to hear from you. Please feel free to contact me on Facebook if there’s anything I can do to help you along your path.
Thanks, Teresa! Great Bonewits reference!
Thank you! I’ve just followed you a message!
Hi Paulette,
Thanks for raising the point about the important differences between thinking and believing. Thinking can be a very academic exercise, but I was discussing the thinking we do about our beliefs. This sort of thinking is very emotional and experiential if we let it be that way, or it can be very dogmatic. In my experience, a personal belief system is usually the result of serious inquiry and study rather than the blind acceptance of a religion. I thoroughly enjoyed reading your comments.
Hi JA,
I think “fluffy bunny” is still being used out there, by someone! She is everything, indeed. Thank you for your comments.
Hello,
Empiricism is based on the ability to observe a phenomenon and collect information about the phenomenon in a systematic way. It is inherently difficult to collect “evidence” about beliefs in a way that reflects positivist methods (which is what I think you’re referring to as empirical). But, it’s not impossible. At any rate, my beliefs are mine and I don’t need anything except my own empirical evidence to support them. Thanks for taking the time to comment.
Spirit, I tend to mostly agree with you that atheism can be a belief system, at least by some people who self-define as atheists. I think atheists come in many different types, just like everyone else. Now, can we stop being mean and have an adult conversation?
My beliefs are just as valid as yours
No, they’re not. You believe in obvious nonsense, which is not as valid as a perspective grounded in reality. Try again, though.
Epic FAIL!
Typically silly answer. Try again, genius.
I am sitting back, enjoying this (YOU), and FANNING YOUR FLAME !!! I think you and I would greatly get along, just because of how we think. And that is just it; WE THINK !!!! Blessed Be (No, Not a Wiccan in modern terms, but wiccan (old english witch) in the original term. Practice Witchcraft in and of my terms, and my worship of God and Goddess in the same.)
Was not quite sure where your post was going, but it ended good. Bless You Paulette !
You are wrong. I am friends with a few atheists, and even they realize that, by their own choosing of BELIEVING there is no
god/goddess, after-life, soul that lives on, that is also A BELIEF. One can not have it both ways.
Quick on the remarks, yet fails on any solid target. There are those in every group.
Children will play. “But I’m NOT a child; I am an adult”.
Do you have anything actually useful to say or are you content to offer silly platitudes and nonsense?
Do you have anything actually useful to say or are you just going to continue being a malignant narcissistic troll?