Ultrasounds and Medjugorje

Ultrasounds and Medjugorje July 18, 2012

When we were expecting our first son I discovered something I’d never thought of before. When they do the ultrasound, if the US tech says, after checking out baby, “Would you like to know the sex of your child?” that means “It’s a boy.” How do you know? Because it means the techie definitely saw something anatomical rather than, as it were, didn’t see something.

The blogger at Holy Souls Hermitage notes something analogous. Apparently the scuttlebutt is that Rome is definitely going to issue a finding on Medj in November. If the “apparations” were real no finding would be issued because Rome would wait till they ended (lest the “apparition” do something wonky after Rome had said they were legit. If Rome is going to issue a finding in November, that means Rome is going to ratify the local ordinaries finding which say that nothing supernatural is happening there.

Of course, all that assumes some finding is, in fact, issued in November. But given that Pope Benedict has made clear he wants this matter resolved I don’t think we’ll need to wait too much longer for the Holy See to make clear what should have been clear 20 years ago: Mary is not appearing at Medjugorje.

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  • There are indications that can lead a tech to assume a fetus is female. What if the fetus likes to multitask but rarely completes said tasks with a high degree of efficiency? Or if it has trouble with mathematics or remembering where it parked? Or tends to kick and make a nuisance of itself as soon as you’re relaxed in front of the TV? (Especially during sports shows.)

    • This made me laugh out loud.

    • Christine

      I resemble that remark!

  • Tominellay

    …reasonably connecting dots…

  • bernard

    Speaking of little children and the masters of logic and understanding, Matthew’s Gospel reading for today, July 18, (11:25-27) is revealing in its truth.
    “I bless you Father, Lord of heaven and of earth, for hiding these things from the learned and the clever and revealing them to mere children.”

  • Nadster

    I can see it now.. Medjugorge Message #160,052 December, 2012 “It’s been one helluva ride”.

    All they have left is their international fame, million dollar trinket business and beauty queen wives. Sure beats goat herding though.

  • Tammy

    Joey, as a Nurse who is familiar with the world of Perinatology, I can tell you that you are on the right track, but the quickest indicator that an unborn baby is a male is the presence of a tv remote in their dominant hand.

    But Seriously folks, I admire my Church for looking at the actual facts and not hysteria in determining these things, thanks be to God

  • Matt

    Good, let’s finally have done with all of this business.

  • Glenn

    As a former Labor & Delivery nurse, my wife could read the ultrasounds, so the tech’s query of whether or not we wanted to know the baby’s sex was meaningless. When she was pregnant with our fourth son (we have five — no girls yet!), I recall that while the tech doing her thing on my wife’s belly, I heard this rather large sigh. I turned to look at my beuatiful bride’s face, and she responded with, “More action figures.”

    OBTW, after our fifth, I got her a female cat.

    • I spotted “it” with my second son but I was too nervous to say anything. With our third pregnancy my wife told me to speak up if I see it before the tech says anything so I did. We’re due for our 3rd boy any day now.

    • melissa

      Then there’s our oldest daughter who obviously believed “modest is hottest” right from the beginning and folder her hands modestly between her legs so no one could tell which she was. Luckily, we didn’t want to know until she was born.

  • Am I the only parent of girls who knows how to spot the indicative line on an us? Oh well, 4 girls will make one feel the expert.
    BUT, u are right, they only asked if we wanted to know when the boy parts made their visual debut during my pregnancy with The Crown Prince.

    • ivan_the_mad

      Hahaha The Crown Prince! We call our first-born HRH, His Royal Highness.

      • ivan_the_mad

        I should add that his godfather bought him a flag of the Kingdom of Jerusalem for his nursery/room, [sarcasm] much to the delight of my wife [/sarcasm].

  • Paul

    So Mark, how do you explain miracles like this? http://www.medjugorjetoday.tv/6354/blind-woman-saw-after-sun-miracle/

    And how do you explain all the fruits of Medjugorje? Surely these fruits are not of the “Devil”?

    Peace …

    • Jmac

      Hmm, from a staunchly pro-medj source with no external links?

      Well, I’m convinced.

      • ivan_the_mad

        Good! Because QED, you ignoramus!

        • Jmac

          I’m stealing that phrase for my abstract algebra class next quarter.

          The integers with addition are an Abelian group, because addition is commutative! QED, you ignoramus!

          • ivan_the_mad

            LOL it’s yours. Have fun with that class. Just wait until vector spaces. A DONUT IS JUST LIKE A PICTURE FRAME. My friend in the class took to rasping like Gollum every time rings were mentioned.

            • Jmac

              Got a pretty good idea about them during linear algebra and real analysis. Good times. And I can entirely sympathize with what I imagine your friend’s mental state was during that class.

              Oh well, at least it’s going to be the first math class in almost two years that I haven’t taken at 7:45 AM.

              • ivan_the_mad

                Yeah, what’s with all the maths classes at the crack of dawn? I could never stay awake in linear; the professor would keep me awake by asking, loudly and frequently, “And then what do we do, Mr. [REDACTED], because we’re smarter than the average bear?” At which point I’d startle and give the response, “throw it into an augmented matrix and row reduce it”. Since you’ve taken linear, you know I didn’t get to sleep for more than a minute at a time lol.

                • Jmac

                  Ah, the answer to everything. So true.

                • Jmac

                  Apologies to the management for mathing up your comboxes. A man just gets urges sometimes.

                  • ivan_the_mad

                    Don’t apologize. You know that the Greatest Modern Commandment of the Enlightened Brights is “Thou shalt gratify all thy urges posthaste, for it is thy right, and knoweth that whosoever impedes thee, is a contemptible stick in the mud, and right silly, and it is truly meet and good that thou peltest Sticky McStick with all manner of smelly cabbages, and banneth him, his children, his children’s children, his shrubberies and goldfish, from the Forum, else thou may not havest a most funny thing happen ‘pon the way to the Forum, on account of Sticky McStick.”

    • Andy, Bad Person

      These questions have been asked and answered on literally every single Medj discussion on this site.

      • ivan_the_mad

        They have to be brought up over and over again because we doubting Thomases lack the gnosis.

    • John in NE

      Paul, I’m sure God is permitted to make hay while the sun shines. Haven’t so many people made pilgrimages to Medjugorje because of their faith? Perhaps their faith in Christ has healed them.

      I don’t think the point is examining each piece of fruit good or bad and “explaining” it, because there’s too much of it. Rather it’s an effort to determine whether the apparitions are real, and if they are, whether or not they’re God’s will being done.

    • Mark Shea

      I explain them as undocumented urban legends, something Medj enthusiasts excel in circulating.

    • Ted Seeber

      God can make even the work of the Devil, turn out good.

    • James

      We can only presume, then, the devil is leading people away from God by bringing them back to Mass and the sacraments, obedience to the Pope and service to the Church. It is a very subtle and evil plan to make them rebels through lives of Christian observance, it’s very subtle.

      • Mark Shea

        Members of the Legion of Christ and Regnum Christi were also very devout. Doesn’t mean Maciel was a saint or that his work was of God. Other factors must be taken into account in evaluating such matters than simply the interior experience of devotees.

  • Not sure you understand the possibilities here. Certainly they are not going to outright approve it while it is still taking place. But there are TWO other options, not one…one is “not established as supernatural” and one is “established as not supernatural”

    The current status is “not established as supernatural” and it could be that they’ll simply reiterate this status. With all the alleged problems with Medj. that have been reported on this site, it’s interesting that the commission in the 1990’s declined to condemn it. “Not established as supernatural” is basically the status if there are no fatal red flags but the apparitions are still ongoing.

  • Kathleen Calgaro

    The US tech asked if we wanted to know the sex of our baby before it was born, and it was a girl.

    So, just asking the question doesn’t mean it’s a boy.

  • William

    Apparently the folks on both sides of this issue don’t have the humility to just wait and see what Mother Church says.

    • Andy, Bad Person

      One side (the ones that don’t accept Medj) doesn’t have to. The Church could proclaim Medj is authentic and no one is obligated to believe it at all.

      • Careful…while no one is obliged to believe Fatima, for instance, I think it would be considered “unfaithful” to the Church to go around publicly bashing it as is done with Medjugorje.

        • Ted Seeber

          Plenty of faithful Catholics have bashed some of the disinformation coming out of Fatima. The Pope even created the World Fatima Apostolate (aka the Blue Army) to * officially* quash some of the more outrageous ideas, like the one that the entire third secret hasn’t been revealed yet (it was) or that the consecration of Russia never happened (did, way back under Pius XII).

          • Bashing disinformation is not the same as bashing the authenticity of the apparitions themselves. My comment was directed to the fact that Andy seems to think that, even if, somehow Medjugorje was approved, those opposed to it could go right on bashing it as if nothing had happened.

            Certainly they could continue bashing Fr. Vlasic, Gianna Salome, etc (who have nothing to do with the authenticity of Medjugorje anyway)

            • ivan_the_mad

              I think you’re reading too much into Andy’s comment. He didn’t say anything about bashing. He spoke only to a Catholic’s freedom to believe (or not) in private revelation.

              • Andy, Bad Person

                Yes. Yes several more times courtesy of le spam filter.

      • Jmac

        Well said. We’re far more worried about those we know who have already accepted Medj as Gospel truth.

  • Nadster

    Here we go again with all the “fruits” arguments and links to supposed miracles. The answer is very simple. The church will likly issue a ruling on the events of 1981 and subsequent claims of the world-travelling seers. Sure there are miracles taking place in Med, just like there are miracles taking place in Milan, Moscow and Minneapolis. Heck, there were miracles in Auschwitz.

    Then again, on the subject of “fruits”, I would agree they are plentiful. The “seers” have made a pretty fruitful living off it all. In comparison to Lourdes, which resulted in the vocation and then early death of the visionary, and Fatima, where two of the three died as holy children and the third spent decades in a cloistered Carmelite convent, I would say Med is starkly different.

  • Diana

    Certainly, we can intelligently witness the Church herself taking control of the verdict of Medj. It was taken out of the local bishops hands because they condemned it. This is almost unprecedented and should be given its due weight alone. We also have strong encouragement from Pope JPII and the CDF along with many other highly respected almost Saints. Certainly IF Medj, were declared false… No one is worse off for having believed. But if it is declared authentic… Sad for those of you who in such disgust have ignored and even scoffed at Our Lady and her messages.

    • ivan_the_mad

      It was escalated because it became a global phenomenon, and therefore the jurisdiction was no longer confined to just the diocese of the local ordinary. The explanation is as simple as “them’s the rules”.

    • Mark Shea

      No. It was *willingly* turned over to Rome because the local bishops have been drowned out by the Medjugorje machine. The bishops know perfectly well that Rome is going to ratify their findings. Medj enthusiasts are in for a shock when that happens because they have been telling themselves this falsehood for several years and are completely out of touch with reality. And yes, a lot of people will be worse off for having believed, not least because they have allowed their belief to give them an excuse for smearing two good bishops and because, as your note makes clear, you have no hesitation about smearing people who listen to the Church as people who “scoff at Our Lady”. I don’t scoff at Our Lady. I scoff at the hucksters and frauds who have perpetrated Medj on a whole lot of innocent people whose faith will be deeply shaken when it all comes tumbling down.

      • David F

        Good point – the local bishops can’t really fight this battle alone. BTW it was the treatment of the bishops that convinced me not to trust Medj. That and the behavior of seers who fail St. Teresa of Avila’s discernment test (visions should lead to greater humility in the seer, if they are of God).

    • John in NE

      Is someone unintelligently witnessing here?

      There’s a member of my family who will temporarily be worse off if it declared false. She has made part of their family’s living by arranging organized trips there. She will benefit in the long run, because I think her faith’s lynchpin anymore is in Medjugorje, and not in the Eucharist.

      • See, I hear that a lot, but I don’t know if I can take it seriously. All of the people that I know who have gone to (or are affected by) Medjugorje end up being more devoted to Mary and have a stronger faith in Christ, the Church, and ESPECIALLY the Eucharist.

        This is what I would expect because Mary does nothing except bring us deeper into the heart of the Church, and the Heart of Christ.

        Sure, they love Medjugorje, but that is BECAUSE, in their experience, it has brought them a closer intimacy with God. I’m sure that this is the same reason why some people are so devoted to Fatima and Lourdes. At least, it is the only VALID reason.

    • Ted Seeber

      Bishops condemning false apparitions in their diocese is actually quite common.

    • CFS

      It won’t be ‘declared authentic’ since it’s still ongoing.

    • Bella

      Those of us who “scoff” at satans opps I mean “our Lady’s” messages scoff for a reason. They are NOT our lady. Praise be to God that our Pope will adress this head on as I am sick and tired of hearing about Medjugorie. Medjugorie will go the way of Bayside.

    • Diana:

      Care to present evidence to us that the Medj affair was “taken out of the local bishops’ hands” by the Vatican, or an example of John Paul II’s endorsement, or any kind of endorsement by the CDF or on the part of any Saint (sic)?

      Please. I’m asking. And snippets of uncritical Medjugorje websites don’t count as evidence.

  • Diana

    How is it that Medj and it’s proported messages are harming the faithful? The Church has not condemned it in over 30 years? So who are the frauds and hucksters?

    • Mark Shea

      By lying that the Blessed Virgin is appearing there. Two bishop have said that nothing supernatural is happening there. The visionaries and some of their confederates have taught the world to ignore those bishops and gotten very rich while doing so. It’s a fraud.

      • Joseph

        Have you seen Ivan’s live visions in Chicago and Austria?

        • Andy, Bad Person

          “Live visions”? As in, Mary appears to him and no one else in the room?

          That just seems…rude.

        • ivan_the_mad

          Yes, but both times I was drunk, so they don’t count.

          • ivan_the_mad

            And before you ask – no, I haven’t had any visions while sober.

            • Ted Seeber

              I’m sorry for you. Of course, most of my visions I interpret as being more satori- private flashes of revelation and insight that are *NOT* to be revealed to others unless it appears that the message would help them, and even then I’m going to claim they are coming from ME- because I have no proof of any of my visitations.

              Besides, Fr. McGivney showing me blueprints inside of an emblem isn’t exactly something that I want to claim is miraculous- even if I eventually figure out a way to build Knightshem. http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/2012/07/utopia-of-knightshelm.html

  • John Thrippleton

    With our son, the tech asked the question seconds after applying the sensor to my wife’s belly. Apparently, he wasn’t shy. After that, all girls, and it was inconlusive into the third trimester. I have had friends that apparently had shyer (or more modest) sons, and they didn’t know up to pretty close to the birth. It has a lot to do with the position of the baby during the ultrasound. I do like the remote control indicator though.

    As far as Medjurgorje, having been there I believe something is happening there. There is definitely an air of spirituality there. If the phenomenon is to be judged by the fruits, it was a very powerful experience for me and I’m glad I went. Is Mary appearing there? I don’t know. I didn’t see her, but lest I be like St Thomas, I think I’ll keep an open mind. Still, I encourage you all to go and see for yourself if you haven’t already. The countryside there is remarkably gorgeous, and there is a very prayerful atmosphere there. I really appreciated the illustration of the catholicity of our faith, expecially during the recitation of the Rosary in the church there where everybody was reciting the prayers in their own language.

    • none of my sons has been particularly shy. In fact, they seemed to be inclined towards exhibitionism (which has continued into post-birth life). 😉

  • Diana

    Thank you, but I will wait on the Church’s verdict and decision, and obediently adhere to that.

  • Ghosty

    I find the subject of ultrasounds more interesting than Medjugorje so I’ll weigh in with my experience. We have one girl, and one boy on the way, and in both cases the tech asked us if we wanted to know the sex of the child. In the case of our daughter it was obviously a girl because of her positioning; both the tech and my wife and I definitely saw that it was a girl.

    Mark is wrong on the subject of ultrasounds, therefore he must be wrong about Medjugorje. The logic is irrefutable!

    Peace and God bless!

  • Heather Price

    With our fourth, Louis, the tech asked as she was about to start–between the application of the goop and scanner. “Do you want to know?”
    The question wasn’t out of her mouth and I’d seen quite clearly that we were expecting our second son. Older son and I were two very happy people that day; Daddy and daughters were satisfied with the healthy report.

  • Jack Grimes

    None of the seers have disavowed His Excellency Bishop Ratko Perić.

    They regard him as their bishop, their shepherd from God, even though H.E. maintains that the apparitions are not worthy of belief.

    If the seers were frauds, they would have denounced their bishop long ago, starting with H.E. Bishop Pavao Žanić, and set up their own bishop.

    For as much as the seers may disagree with their shepherds, they do not reject them and remain in communion with them. Bishop Perić presided over confirmations in Medjugorje just this past May (http://te-deum.blogspot.com/2012/05/full-translation-bishops-2012.html).

    • Mark Shea

      So because a bishop doesn’t excommunicate an entire parish because there are a few frauds in their midst, this demonstrates what?

      • Jack Grimes

        It is the inaction of the seers, not the bishop, that I am trying to highlight.

        That the seers readily admit H.E. +Perić is their shepherd demonstrates that in a fundamental way their attitude is uncharacteristic for supposed frauds, hucksters, and heretics.

        From at least the time of the Montanists and Donatists, hasn’t the modus operandi of false prophets been to declare the hierachy apostate and set up their own?

        • Jmac

          If they want to define new doctrine, maybe. If they want to rake in the material wealth, they can pay lip service to their ecclesiastical superiors all day. Remember Maciel?

  • Andrew

    Miracles, heightened spirituality and “good things” have been associated with Our Lady of Czestochowa, but, Mary never appeared there either. Put enough of the faithful in my garage and I guarantee good things will result (after I move the ping pong table out of the way), but for me to claim anything more than the ‘regular’ action of the Holy Spirit would be fraud even if I REALLY believed something miraculous was happening. Finally, once my Bishop said, “This is nice that so many people are praying the rosary in your garage, but after careful study I see nothing miraculous” then the matter ends there.

  • MarkC

    Seriously Mark? A nun in Lebanon says the CDC is going to issue a verdict in November? And you found out about this on the internet?? And now other sites are linking to you with the headline “Holy See to Announce Findings on Medjugorje This November? – Mark Shea”.
    Who told the nun? Her mule??

    • Mark Shea

      I can’t be responsible for how people misquote me. I make clear that I don’t know if this claim is true.

      • MarkC

        Well thanks for sharing! A good example of the echo chamber at work ..

      • Diana,

        There is a question mark at the end of the statement which clearly denotes uncertainty, not certainty.

        I purposely placed that question mark there to signify that Mark doesn’t even know if this is true.

        Big Pulpit

        PS Mark I’ll reword the link if you like.

        • MarkC

          Ha! Now Pewsitter is trumpeting the news: “Rome to issue finding on Medjugorje”. What a bunch of lemmings! Long live the mule!!

          • That’s true… Rome will issue a finding. Will it be in November? Stay tuned. We know one of the Medj commission members said they were supposed to submit their report to the Holy Father by the end of the year, and indeed they may have already submitted it to him. Nothing implausible about the idea that we would hear something in November. Right before Advent would be an appropriate moment for such an announcement.

          • I guess that makes you a troll.

            • MarkC

              Cardinal Puljic of Sarajevo said in February that the Commission was on a timetable to finish before the end of 2012: “”Later this year we want to finish our work and give our opinion to the Pope so that he can express his judgment. I can not talk about what the Commission does because I am bound to secrecy. Our work is still going on. This year, however, we must finish it”

              The idea that a prominent Catholic blogger, and a published author of Marian titles, could produce such a ridiculous thesis – that a November completion date is indicative of the final verdict – is astounding. The Commission has been pointing to this date all along.
              And, what to make of at least two editors of Catholic news sites basically repeating this tripe without any fact checking. Astounding! Sometimes I think Pewsitter is being run by 8th graders ..

  • EBS

    When I was a teenager, my mum took me and my sister to a family friends house to hear a “visionary” Valentina talk. I really felt a strong spiritual presence when she spoke especially when she would add during her conversations that she could see Mary smiling at her, telling us She was pleased that we gathered in Her name and especially to honor Her Son. He said and did all the right things. We prayed, and I went away spiritually uplifted for many weeks- a stronger devotion to Our Lady, eager to know God more- full of love. It “strengthened” my faith.

    Guess what? Valentina turned out to be a fraud- a lovely, but lonely little Lithuanian lady who just wanted attention after her husband died.

    A week before On our wedding day, my husband and I donated money, by the recommendation of my devout brother-in-law, to a fund that raised money for a young “devout” man who was studying in a seminary to become a priest but who had cancer. Many many young people supported him, prayed for him, donated money for his illness, stood behind him, and made it their purpose to help. Even the priests and bishops. We were deeply moved at the time and filled with love praying for this young man, as did the Maronite Catholic community. This man kept this charade going for years. Turned out he was a fraud and another attention seeker- eager to let other people believe he was a holy, suffering man. Needless to say he caused a lot of damage within the church. Only God can judge him.

    This was at the same time that I became interested in Medjugorje. So, my point? Just because you go away from something feeling changed, converted, uplifted, full of the Holy Spirit and a stronger faith, does not mean any of this is true.

    I go away many times from Mass “feeling” bland, nothing, not uplifted or changed. Being the same struggling sinner who tries to be better by next Mass. Feelings and a sense of conversion doesn’t mean your faith is stronger. Mother Theresa had long periods in her life when she felt God wasn’t there. But her faith remained. I think that the struggle and sometimes despair one feels is an indicator your faith is maturing. You realize how much you don’t have, or don’t know etc…
    So, when I read posts or comments that ignore Bishops and say- “well, I went to Medjugorje, and it change me”, I think, so what? It’s exciting going to beautiful Croatia and seeing pious traditional Catholicism and “thinking” you are in the presence of something magical and supernatural. Does NOT mean it’s true.
    So called miracles are not indicators. What is an indicator is if you put your ego and love of attention aside and obey your superior- the bishop. Many many good, traditional priests have denounced it as have Bishops- Unfortunately human nature prefers the hype rather than the mundane day to day struggle. It gives people purpose (unfortunately), and the “visionaries” a lot of attention. Which is exactly what they want. That’s what it’s about (even if no one gets filthy rich from it).
    Can’t wait till November, this is a long time coming.

    • Ted Seeber

      I have always been a skeptic. I remember the first time I was exposed to the miracles of Medjagorie- a picture supposedly taken of the Croatian countryside, in which a picture of Mary “miraculously” appeared. I recognized it at the time for what it was- a double exposure, a problem common with cameras of a certain age, of the countryside of Croatia combined with a rather famous painting of St Mary from the middle ages- complete with the paint clearly peeling in EXACTLY the same places as the painting. The foolishness of some who just want to believe so badly that they will believe anything, can be amazing.

      • EBS

        So true Ted. If you want to believe it, you will.

      • Elmtree

        I can only speak of my own experience with people I know. And my faith does not rest on whether or not Medj is an actual apparition or a fraud or some sort of mass hysteria– I’ll take it in stride whatever happens, and I honestly don’t know what the truth of the matter is.

        I have, however, one of those photos. It was taken by a member of the Legion of Mary (when my mom was involved) and developed at a regular fotomat style developer in the US. The image of Mary is there– the Legionary who took the photo wondered who the woman was in the picture, as she was not there when the photo was taken. When she went back to Medjugoria a number of years later, she asked Vicka (I think tha’ts her name) and she said “oh, that’s our Lady”. I also know my mom’s rosaries did turn gold as she was looking at them (my mom is dead now but the rosaries are still around). These events happened- how or why I don’t know. But they were my mom’s regular rosaries. This is not hearsay. That’s all I can share– what happened.

        • Ted Seeber

          I’d be curious to know if you’ve ever had a link of the chain of a “turned to gold” rosary assayed.

  • EBS

    @Jack Grimes- a priest had relations with a nun, the visionaries many of the hotels in Medjugorje, the community organizes religious festivals contrary to the day that the Bishop recommends Our Lady should be honored…a visionary doesn’t even reside there (Mary has to follow him to USA)… there is no disobedience? Please I ask you to explain these “fruits”.
    Again, as I stated, fluffy warming stuff doesn’t make anything Holy. It merely treats the faithful like idiots!
    God gave us faith AND reason. And the Vatican exercises BOTH when making judgements, because God gave us a brain (that wasn’t by accident you know- He has a reason and purpose for EVERYTHING given to us).

  • Joseph

    I think it was done 20 years ago, just not by the Vatican. I think it was the bishops of Yugoslavia.

  • More Medjugorje goofiness:


    Our Lady is a tennis fan. Who knew?

    • Andy, Bad Person

      My goodness. It’s just beyond parody.

      • It was a dumb comment by Vicka, but obviously she is just giving her opinion, and not saying that Our Lady actually told her that she made the tennis player win.

        • Andy, Bad Person

          It’s far beyond a dumb comment. Sure, athletic success, like all beauty, is reflective of the goodness of God. Why is it a “message of Medjugorje?” It’s insane. It’s like saying anything good coming from Mexico is a “message of Guadalupe.” How silly.

  • Here we go again. Mark’s analysis is totally on the … well, the mark, and is consistent with the following, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

    65 “In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son.”26 Christ, the Son of God made man, is the Father’s one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one. St. John of the Cross, among others, commented strikingly on Hebrews 1:1-2: “In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word – and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.” (St John of the Cross, The Ascent of Mount Carmel 2,22,3-5 in The Collected Works of St John of the Cross, tr K Kavanaugh, OCD, and O Rodriguez, OCD (Washington DC:Institute of Carmelite Studies, 1979)

    66 “The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ.”28 Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.

    67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

    Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.

    73 God has revealed himself fully by sending his own Son, in whom he has established his covenant for ever. The Son is his Father’s definitive Word; so there will be no further Revelation after him.

  • alex

    I think u need to go there. U have very little to go on that’s negative against a mountian of excellent fruit. Trusting bloggers as sources and even a Jesuit not twist facts to get to their own conclusions and desires is well like protestantism, everybody is their little pope and can intrepret God’s themselves. Would u really accept Megj. if the Holy Father says its a place of great graces and conversions and healings have been taken place there for decades???

    Not all bishops speak with the Spirit of God. I think the vatican took this out of the bishops responsibility because he was predjudiced. Several time they have overstepped him and formed other commissions.
    For those who think she couldn’t possibly be appearing for 30 years, just think of Jesus present in tabernacles, body and soul and divinity for centuries, no different than an appartitions really.
    Lastly, this world is in a dire condition which has caused Our Lord to use extreme measures to touch this hopeless and lost world. Prayer, conversion, fasting ? yea God couldn’t being the World to that, there is no need for anything extraordinary in this present darkness , eh?

    • ivan_the_mad

      :O “a mountian of excellent fruit”?!?!?! Just think of all the mangoes and bananas involved!

  • alex

    One more thing. 70, 000 people witnessed the miracle of the sun at Fatima on Oct. 13 1917 and the local bishop surely didn’t encourage their attendance. They believed and came.

    • EBS

      So Alex, you beleive Medjugorje true because of her excellent fruits, yet like I mentioned in my comment I believed two frauds that made me and others faith stronger and more fervent…not a good enough reason. Does not make the event true.
      And you say the Bishop is prejudice (your opinion, not the Vaticans I’m sure) and doing so you undermine the local Bishop and say the Vatican went over his head- the Vatican didn’t remove him as local bishop…. they stepped in because the visionaries and their priests are disobedient. What do you want him to do- beat sense into them- these Medjugorje group are stubborn and attention seekers- even Narcissistic to think they are right and know better…its astounding. We are meant to be One Body of Christ- The Church.
      And bloggers and Jesuits arent the only people saying Medjugorje isn’t true- there have been essays and books written on the matter by religious academics denouncing it for years and years. Google them and their credentials.
      Mary appearing to Vicka and the like is NOT like Jesus in the Tabernacle. The true mystery is Jesus in the Tabernacle (this boarders on sacrilege, and I’m sure Mary would tell you the same- Our Lady doesn’t upstage Her Son, the Son of God!). Lastly, Fatima is approved and true, and from my knowledge didn’t bear any sacrileges or controversial scandals by the visionaries. Medjugorje does- don’t hide behind Fatima to justify Medjugorje- the two are chalk and cheese. The world has always been “dire”, we are not special or worse off in this day and age. We are only self-centered to think we are.

  • LizEst

    I posted this comment a few weeks ago when Crisis Magazine ran an article on Medjugorje http://www.crisismagazine.com/2012/the-devil-and-medjugorje. I believe it bears repeating:

    “Buyer beware! Though a lot of pious folk believe in Medjugorje, we do well to wait until the Church reaches Her conclusions–and more so because of all the controversy associated with it. The devil is very intelligent and can, as long as God permits it, come up with some very convincing imitations, which always show themselves to be false by being unable to completely duplicate authentic supernatural phenomena, though they can come very, very close to such. The case of Sister Magdalena of the Cross is one example of false phenomena. Magdalena had a pact with the devil for 40 years…and many authorities believed her. This is must reading:

    Even if the Church formally approves of Medjugorje, we will be free to believe or not to believe. Private revelation is not a tenet of our faith. In Jesus Christ, God has said everything. Authentic private revelation neither adds to Scripture nor subtracts from it. Authentic private revelation is always obedient to the Church, the Body of Christ.”

  • Kevin

    Clearly there are some people heavily invested in this. If I were a betting man I’d bet…

    That Vegas has odds on Rome’s upcoming announcement.

    (seriously I bet they do)

  • J Farah

    I’m sorry… Are people condemning Lourdes and Fatima because of the money made on them (selling souvenirs, trinkets, etc.)? Or is that only the standard for Medjugorje? If the Pope wants to get on with it, we should expect a surprise, fresh announcement. This is a pope of surprises, like his predecessor.

  • Mike G

    There was enough evidence back in the 1980s to condemn Medjugorje. The Church should have done this a long time ago. So many people have been misled. It’s full of lies, scandal, disobedience and doctrinal errors. See “The Truth About Medjugorje” by Bishop Zanic. Google it. (By the way, you misspelled “apparition” in the article.)

  • t.lewis

    Thank you Satan for Medjugorji, you brought me closer to the Son of God through his mother than I could have ever expected to be in this life. Thank you Satan, my devotion to the Holy Rosary, now for over twenty years has given me I believe Graces to get through some real bad times. Thank you Satan for helping me cope with my church, it’s abuse of children, lies, cover-ups, thefts, beach houses, nuns who are pro abortion, pro same sex marriage, well the list goes on, but Satan, thanks to you, I’ll never leave the True Church, our Holy Catholic Church, but I can’t say that for the millions of others.

  • If the Catholic Church, our Mother and Teacher (Mater et Magistra), has not yet accomplished a definitive statement about Medj., why should we?
    Anyway, three items have a good influence on me.
    1) The fruits of prayer and penance.
    2) The fact that all messages are adequate to the official teaching of the Church.
    3) If there had been something false, the Church would had distrusted and object people gain access to a pilgrimage there.
    In front of a similar astonishingly great event, it’s impossible to think: ” It’s only a machinery of human fanatical people”. So this is the unavoidable conclusion: either there is a devil involvement. or the thing has something dealing with a divine reality. But, as I told several times before, as the fruits are overabundant, I highlight the obvious conclusion.

  • Joannie

    I had heard many negative things from E. Michael Jones who published a book called “The Deception” in which he talks about the history of Croatia and the town in which the visions are alleged to be taken place- the nun pregnant by a priest the call to disobey the local Bishop, the absurd things the visionaries have alleged to have said etc. For that he was condemned by Charismatic fanatics one of which put a curse of death on him. Some “fruits” This is all about making money being disobedient, and trying to pattern another Marian apparition. I never trusted the whole Charismatic Renewal.

  • Hey Mark… I’m surprised and disappointed … first off, there is no announcement from the Vatican… so why not wait instead of gloating and drumming up blog hits over here say … they may or may not make a statement … you’ve provided no source. Why should we even believe you? It seems like a straw man… spreading a rumor about an announcement and then saying the timing of the rumored announcement indicates it’ll be a thumbs down… A guy who is as influential as you should be doing more diligence in giving a source in such a provocative blog entry…

  • Berengere

    G’day mate! 31st January 2013 here, still waiting on the so-called ruling regarding Medjugorje… no announcement was made and it looks like it’s going to take a looooong time, probable when the apparitions will cease. Instead of using some theological rhetoric, how about just applying the few basics given in Medjugorje as a guidance to reach a healthy and spiritual life turned towards heaven: mass, prayer, bible, confession, fast… you can ask your priest, those 5 points have nothing “special” to Medjugorje and will not lead you to evil, or else there’s something really wrong going on with your faith. As for the believers who need signs leave them alone or do you think Saint Thomas is a myth? Instead of spending energy to fight against Medjugorje, how about unifying prayers for this world which slowly but surely turning to evil?