The Mormon Therapist
The Brethren are not about to address every circumstance and how to deal with it. They leave much of this up to the professional counselors. They also leave the sexual activities up to the couple to decide. I have been taught that whatever brings a couple closer together, and is mutual between them, is good. If a couple chooses to masturbate together over the phone, during times of separation, I see this as providing a great means of staying connected and close, while being apart.
One needs to look at the reasons for the counsel against masturbation, which has primarily been directed to the Youth, then they can reason for themselves whether it applies within their marriage.
Will it lead to same sex experimentation?
Will it lead to more grieveous sins?
I am not saying that masturbation is right for all couples; just that we have to look at the reasons for the counsel behind the warnings, and realize that most of the concerns are removed for marriaged couples.
Much of the problem, I would suspect is mental, and being able to allow her thoughts to focus on the pleasure, and other romantic thoughts. The brain is the best sex organ there is, but many/most LDS women are afraid to think sexual thoughts – IMO.
Part of the problem, at least from my experience, is a lack of reciprocity. It is difficult to initiate a discussion, a date, a hug, sex, etc. when the spouse has repeatedly shown no interest in these things. After years of trying with mostly unsuccessful results, it becomes very difficult to maintain hope and to keep trying.
I agree with Anon also regarding the need for a more regular release of tension. The preference is obviously that this be achieved through mutually agreeable relations between husband and wife. When this ideal isn’t possible and despite best efforts there is no hint of progress toward this ideal, I agree with Anon that the physical, mental, and emotional benefits of achieving this release by oneself are not insignificant.
His statements, I believe were based on his upbringing and experience dealing with missionaries with a preoccupation with masturbation, which sometimes lead to mutual masturbation with companions.
There is some wisdom in some of his concerns. Masturbation can become habitual. So can over eating, over exercising, over spending, etc… So, to tell the youth that they should steer clear from it is good advice – as long as they know what when they succum to the tempation they are not damned, nor have they committed a heinious sin!
What do we think the Lord would judge more harshly, occasional masturbation, or frequent belittling, emotional abuse, 50% Home/Visiting Teaching… ?
You told this poster: “As far as masturbation, I would encourage you not to do so without your wife’s knowledge. Dishonesty and/or secrecy always drive a deeper wedge, which is exactly the opposite of what you need right now.”
I don’t necessarily agree with this advise. As a man/husband who has been in this poster’s situation, and one with such a high sex drive, the occassional masturbation has been a healing part of my mental health. Without the sexual relief when you have a “non available” spouse, the emotional state becomes all consuming at times. The physical relief helps me to move forward and put my mind to rest for a while, making it easier to accept my wife’s much lower sex drive.
I don’t think that most women can even comprehend the amount of sexual tension and emotional rejection that is present when dealing with a lower desire spouse. There is a reason that almost 100% of men have masturbated – we have a much higher testosterone level!
I remember once reading a comment from a woman. This woman had been give a testosterone patch to help with her low libido. She said that she had to discontinue the testosterone because it made her became almost obsessed with sex, she couldn’t stand how strong her sex drive was and how she always felt on edge. But, she had a much better appreciation for her husband and felt bad that she had not been there for him all of those years. She said that she became much more available for him and learned that it helped kick start her own libido.
Without that regular release for most men, they can become more uptight, more on edge with their wife and kids and not as available emotionally. You may disagree, but this is my own personal experience and I have read several other testimonies of this same issue.
So, what does one do when his wife is not willing to be available for sex and would absolutely go ballistic if she knew that he occassionally masturbated to relieve the stress? She doesn’t understand the sexual needs of her husband, which includes the strong need for that sexual release, via sex or masturbation. She wouldn’t be open to him masturbating with her knowledge, so what is the point of bringing it up?
Unless both are willing to go through counseling to work through the issue the husband is left with a high libido and emotionally rejected… and to be told that masturbation without her knowledge is dishonest and being secret leaves him no where to go. Talk about feeling alone on an island.
At times I have prayed to have my sex drive go away. No luck. At times I have thought (never seriously) that maybe castration would be a good idea.
God implanted in most men a strong sex drive. According to Boyd K. Packer it was necessary, so that men would be drawn to marriage and having a family. The problem comes about when they make that commitment then find out that their wife doesn’t have that same need, or desire, for the physical and emotional sexual experience.
Try to consider that your wife most likely does not have bad intentions. She is not trying to torture you and probably did not intentionally deceive you regarding sexuality when you were dating. As you described, the situation evolved to become what it is.
Leave open the possibility that your wife loves you as much as you love her- she just has different needs and different ways of expressing her love. Ideally each spouse would try to express love in ways that the partner would recognize and appreciate. Since that isn’t the case, try to recognize other ways that your wife shows you love.
Try to focus on whatever good there is in your wife and your relationship. Maybe she’s a great cook or makes an effort to keep the house clean or is a wonderful mother. Find the things that are important to her and express sincere appreciation for whatever efforts she does make.
While it does not appear that a fulfilling sex life will happen in the near future, leave open the possibility that things will improve with time. Try to be patient. When sex has become a wedge that drives you apart, focusing on that wedge only drives it deeper and increases the distance between you.
If you and your wife can discuss your concerns in a positive way, do so. If not, consider counseling as a means for you both to express yourselves and to hopefully reach solutions where both of you can be happy.
Official positions, ie doctrines, are very relevant. Lds.org???
“We believe the bible to be the word of God, as far as… We also believe that anything written on www.lds.org or printed by the church or sold at deseret book to be literally handwritten by the finger of the Lord… we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God” — A modern 4th Article of Faith.
No, while I don’t disagree with your right to believe those things, (which you, admittedly, don’t) that doesn’t mean that they are official church positions, doctrines, or true.
You have created yourself a false dichotomy (er… trichotomy?)… those aren’t the only valid options. 1, imperfections in the church by no means prove it to be wrong. 2 – assumes masturbation actually is a Sin, which will demand punishment at some future date.
3 – Quite the contrary… we have an amazingly liberating theology. There are ways to wiggle and squirm all over the place on all kinds of things in the church. But until the prophet, acting in his office as such, declares to have received a revelation which declares X (in this case that masturbation is sinful), and until I receive a personal witness that said prophet did in fact receive a true revelation from God, I am not bound to believe it. Now… nothing anywhere near that has happened. Till it does, there’s still a place for people in the church who think Pres. Kimball was fallible.
What is all this talk about official positions? Look on the church’s website. Bam. All official positions. That wasn’t too hard.
And interestingly, according to LDS.org, masturbation is a SIN, and should NEVER happen. You can’t justify it, no matter what.
Prophets have specifically condemned it. And according to Ezra Taft Benson, “The prophet will never lead the Church astray.” (1980)
So if the church says: Prophets have condemned masturbation, and prophets won’t lead you astray, then you have a few options.
1) Realize the imperfections of the church, which prove the church wrong. The gospel is supposed to be perfect. If you don’t find the church perfect, you’re either just insane, or the church just isn’t true. Leave the church.
2) Continue to masturbate, think you can justify it, sin in ignorance, and be punished that much more.
3) Just quit, shut up, and stop trying to justify, morph, and twist your way around the doctrine of the church. There’s no room for interpretation when prophets say it flat-out.
Here is just a sampling of what you will find when you do a Search on
www.lds.org:From the Aaronic Priesthood lesson manual:
“God has never changed His laws and commandments concerning sexual sin, although man has tried to change them to suit his own pleasure. The law of chastity means that a man must not have intimate physical relations with anyone except his own wife. The Lord has commanded, “Thou shalt not commit adultery” (Exodus 20:14). The law of chastity is not limited to just adultery, however. It extends to all improper uses of the divine power of procreation. Among the other ways man misuses this sacred power are fornication (including living together without marriage), homosexuality, abortion, and masturbation.”
President Spencer W. Kimball
“The early apostles and prophets mention numerous sins that were reprehensible to them. Many of them were sexual sins—adultery, being without natural affection, lustfulness, infidelity, incontinence, filthy communications, impurity, inordinate affection, fornication. They included all sexual relations outside marriage—petting, sex perversion, masturbation, and preoccupation with sex in one’s thoughts and talking. Included are every hidden and secret sin and all unholy and impure thoughts and practices”
From the Church Publication ‘A Parent’s Guide’
`’The sin of masturbation occurs when a person stimulates his or her own sex organs for the purpose of sexual arousal. It is a perversion of the body’s passions. When we pervert these passions and intentionally use them for selfish, immoral purposes, we become carnal.”
From ‘For The Strength of Youth’
“Before marriage, do not do anything to arouse the powerful emotions that must be expressed only in marriage. Do not participate in passionate kissing, lie on top of another person, or touch the private, sacred parts of another person’s body, with or without clothing. Do not allow anyone to do that with you. Do not arouse those emotions in your own body.”
Because I’m going to leave ‘this’ post open w/my blog and info..I’ll leave it at this.
I’ve seen a variety of therapists. Only left 1 because I didn’t like her in the beginning. However, all the others have ‘left’ me as they have changed jobs or retired.
Even though the common theme I read about last night was sexual in nature and that is not the issue w/myself or marriage. However, there are other issues.
“I just want to clarify that the official church position does not support masturbation as an “OK” practice (especially solo and even more so if married and without spousal knowledge)”
I think this is absolutely not the official church position… because I don’t think there is one. Check the scriptures… or even the handbook, and you won’t find it. All you will find are quotes from individual church leaders. Should we just throw out their counsel? No, but we need to compare it to the scriptures and life experience, and with our own prayerful experience and find out if they are right.
Church leaders generally give good counsel. But even the brethren make mistakes, and, more frequently, express opinions. It’s part of being human.
But, I think it is misleading to say that a few of those opinions expressed make something into “official church doctrine” or anything approaching it.
A great read for anyone interested is an article at the fairLDS site. One quote will suffice for now:
“Harold B. Lee expressed similar thoughts when he taught that any doctrine, advanced by anyone—regardless of position—
that was not supported by the standard works, then “you may know that his statement is merely his private opinion.” He
recognized that the Prophet could bring forth new doctrine, but “when he does, [he] will declare it as revelation from
God,” after which it will be sustained by the body of Church.”
The doctrine is found in the scriptures. I’m still waiting for an explanation as to why the scriptures would remain silent on such a “common indiscretion” and sin… especially if prophets really have forbidden it throughout the ages as has been suggested by President Kimball. The ancient writers seemed to have no qualms about treating a great many sins, sexual and otherwise, in often rather lengthy detail (thoughts of just whose nakedness I’m allowed to see come to mind, along with lying with any particular family relation or farm animal…)
I allow anyone that wants to interpret the scriptures to mean that masturbation is wrong to do so. However, I feel something is amiss if they feel they ought to proclaim that interpretation to be “official church doctrine” when it isn’t.
I rejoice to be a part of a church that doesn’t require me to believe anything which is not true.
Check out
http://fairlds.org/apol/ai231.html to get the article and other great resources.For a few more of my thoughts on the topic, you can go to http://randomramblingsaboutstuff.blogspot.com/2008/11/so.html
“I just want to clarify that the official church position does not support masturbation as an “OK” practice (especially solo and even more so if married and without spousal knowledge).”
What do you define as an “official church position”? When the topic of masturbation is not mentioned in the scriptures, or found in the General Handbook of Instruction, how does one come up with an “official position”?
I know that SWK was very vocal about his opinion on the subject, but since then, most statements that have been made were just quoting him. And, in over 8 years in my leadership position in the church (bishoprics and bishop), I have not seen one bit of communication from the Church on the subject. It seems that most everyone is forming their own opinions based on what they were taught, how their immediate leaders feel about the issue, etc…
I am not saying that masturbation is not a problem, but that the real problem, to me, seems to be the inability of some to be able to deal with emotional issues, and thus turning to masturbation, or drugs, or…
I have not looked at masturbation so much as a sin, but as a possible sign of the inability to deal with stress, boredom, depression, etc… If the masturbation is not addictive (several times a week, where the person can not control the urges and limit the frequency to a more reasonable number) then I would just work with them, to help them realize what those triggers are that cause them to masturbate, to help them be in better control. But I tried very hard to let them know that they are certainly not in the minority, and that they are not a bad person.
If the member exhibited signs of addiction, then the solution was to help find them some professional counseling, to help them learn how to deal with their emotional issues and the addiction.
Occassional masturbation by a husband or wife, when their spouse has been very cold and unavailable…? I can understand this. Would I with hold a recommend for this? No.
There’s also the part where we — who have “borne the burden of the day” — readily accept the newly repentant ones as
pure as a newborn infant.If that thought is foreign to you, you have not understood repentance and forgiveness. If the Lord says he will no longer remember them, who are we to harbor those issues?
But you already know what to do: Talk to your fiance/husband, and ask him if he’d like to help you get over your selfishness. You can have a sweet talk, and you can have reassurance that no matter what he’s done, you can become the only one for him, in your mind, too.
We should be honest and open in our relationships. We should take the time to talk things through so that they don’t become bigger, or even too big to handle anymore.
Also, all that means that if you have talked it through and then he says, “nah, been there, done that” to something you suggest, he’s the one bringing the baggage to your relationship. It will not be the same thing with someone you have deeply committed to. And even if we’re talking of a faithful LDS, who is a widow, for example, he should be courteous to you, and not remind you too much. The fact that you know he’s been married should be enough. You don’t need to discuss details with him, IMO.
This is yet another example of why Law of Chastity is absolutely brilliant from a relationship point of view.
When you have to constantly justify your lifestyle (be it deviant in any way), you look for situations where you can do more of it, and, perhaps even find someone, who agrees with your twisted view.
As a father of five daughters, I cannot but feel my skin crawl if I think that any of them would end up a prostitute. I have seen how the industry works; I also know something about the clients by experience; both the “john” and the prostitute hurt themselves and each other.
It is another discussion entirely, that many people will resort to some criminal activity, when they feel they have no other option. Without demand for prostitution they would do something else.
Like Natasha, I agree with the poster, that sex is
not evil; but sex outside marriage breaks the Lord’s commandments, and you cannot break them without hurting yourself and others. If you don’t agree, it is because our Adversary is very good at dulling our spiritual sense of direction, when we have let him take over in our thoughts and actions. You cannot follow two masters…And, like the poster, I wish that Mormons would have a different culture regarding sex. Many of my fellow missionaries in the 1980s were very ignorant; talking to the ones we have had in the last few years shows that they are quite backwards and lacking in their sex ed.
A lot of the Mormon culture is essentially a middle-class adaptation of Puritan culture, where all enjoyment is forbidden, unless specifically commanded. And the Puritans hadn’t gotten over the Catholic notion that sex is evil.
I hope he sees both sides of the fence instead of only his….
Through the dozens of posts I’ve read, you seem to be a wise, trustworthy person, something which I rarely have the privilege of saying about anyone.
Although I agree with the poster that Mormon culture surrounding sexuality is “stiflingly rigid,” the extent to which he has justified his actions is more than alarming – it is inexcusable and it just hurts. Forget Mormon belief – his actions are not aligned as one who professes belief in love; goodness; creation; service; and in the end, peace and lasting joy.
One wonders how he wound up at this blog and why he is interested in your Mormon perspective at all anymore if he is truly at peace with what he is doing.
Anyway, I don’t mean to berate the original poster or make him feel unwelcome, I just wanted to thank you for your response – there are so many talented and creative sophists out there that sometimes I just yearn to hear the simple goodness, and your response somehow was it.
I usually find the advice on this subject to be ridiculous. However, I cannot agree more with Natasha on her suggestions. I thing she got it 100% correct, point by point, absolutely perfect.
I’m still quite shocked by this. I’m not sure on how to take it… =)
This became an issue for me early in our marriage, and we used to argue/fight over this subject. At that time, I felt very angry. Today the anger is giving way to feelings of self-pity and hopelessness.
Throughout my marriage I have been plagued by the fear that I made a mistake asking my wife to marry me. I feel some regret, as though I made the wrong choice to marry this person.
My wife never touches me. No hand holding, no hugs, no pat on the back – nothing. She has absolutely no interest in sex. She never initiates it, and when I do it is not uncommon for her to protest that she is tired. When she does go along with it, she just lies there and does nothing. She does not touch me, kiss me, talk to me or anything else. She literally will just lie there and do nothing, waiting for it to be over. It has all become somewhat mechanical and monotonous. She absolutely refuses to consider oral sex, saying that it is gross; and she does not want to use her hand to pleasure me, either.
I do not want to get divorced because the children are young, and I feel strongly that children need a father in the home everyday. I feel stuck. I feel like my wife misled me when we were dating. I feel that people who do not want to be affectionate and sexual HAVE NO BUSINESS GETTING MARRIED. It seems like my only option is to “endure to the end,” however, the thought of spending forever with this person is somewhat depressing.
Try to consider that your wife most likely does not have bad intentions. She is not trying to torture you and probably did not intentionally deceive you regarding sexuality when you were dating. As you described, the situation evolved to become what it is.
Leave open the possibility that your wife loves you as much as you love her- she just has different needs and different ways of expressing her love. Ideally each spouse would try to express love in ways that the partner would recognize and appreciate. Since that isn’t the case, try to recognize other ways that your wife shows you love.
Try to focus on whatever good there is in your wife and your relationship. Maybe she’s a great cook or makes an effort to keep the house clean or is a wonderful mother. Find the things that are important to her and express sincere appreciation for whatever efforts she does make.
While it does not appear that a fulfilling sex life will happen in the near future, leave open the possibility that things will improve with time. Try to be patient. When sex has become a wedge that drives you apart, focusing on that wedge only drives it deeper and increases the distance between you.
If you and your wife can discuss your concerns in a positive way, do so. If not, consider counseling as a means for you both to express yourselves and to hopefully reach solutions where both of you can be happy.
I would focus on your own arousal and look forward to and cherish your own sexuality. I don’t necessarily mean that you should be taking matters into your own hands (masturbation), although I don’t see a big issue with using this as a learning process, but learn how to look forward to a good orgasm. Find ways to use your husbands body in ways that can bring YOU the most pleasure. Don’t look at the sexual experience as having your husband using you; turn it around and see if you can’t be the one to derive the most pleasure out of the experience.
Have some fun with this new attitude and find ways to use that powerful sex organ (your brain) to bring a new, exciting attitude into your life.
I think frequently about my desire for a close, intimate relationship with my wife, and I wonder if my perception of an unmet need actually causes me to think about this much more than I would if I perceived that the need was met.
But it becomes unhealthy to think about such things when there is not a viable outlet. It becomes a difficult, downward cycle….
We decided to make a contract with his healthy living being rewarded in a way that was no way sexual, and it has worked out fairly well. In order to get the new big-screen TV he wanted he had to keep his end of the bargain: set gym attendance, only one fast food meal a week, no candy for the year, etc. I also let him know that a great way to let me know that he was “in the mood” was to come to bed smelling good with minty breath. You’d be surprised what a turn-on Crest toothpaste is for me now.
Once we took the pressure off our sex life and made the reward a tangible object, things seemed to flow more naturally. I told him I wouldn’t be the enforcer of this contract. He’d have to make sure he was following the rules himself. Because of this, he has lost almost all of the 40 pounds and is feeling much healthier. He’s getting the TV this December and I’ve gotten my handsome, if healthier, husband back. Win-win
And I would never put shame and sex together like the church does. And we do not have our kids attend the stake level meeting that discusses sex.
Thankfully our kids have grown to be well adjusted young adults.
Do you think oral sex is wrong?
Is there something about me specifically that turns you off to the idea of oral sex?
What would REALLY turn you on?
Are you willing to REALLY turn me on?
Can we come to an agreement as to how often you’ll perform oral sex on me?
My late wife could never get past the idea that oral sex was gross and unnatural, so I was only on the receiving end twice, and then only briefly. In the half dozen times I managed to persuade her to let me perform it on her, she could never let herself enjoy it.
While you’re young, enjoy sex in all its forms, as long as it is between only you and your husband and doesn’t involve degrading things like pornography. Play. Enjoy. Use things that arouse like lingerie and toys. Your husband is fortunate that you’re willing to provide, but needs to make giving you pleasure his main focus.
The Church has stated that this law stipulates that there shall be no sexual relations, except with our spouses. To have sexual relations requires 2 people. Some have argued that it is having sex with yourself, but you are only ONE.
I don’t know where he is getting his opinion, but it isn’t from the General Handbook of Instruction – it is silent on masturbation (both for single and married members).
I agree with the other posters, that this is something that is between you and your husband. When your Bishop asks you the temple recommend questions, he is not to deviate from the questions. He will ask you whether you live the Law of Chastity. You answer that question according to your own judgement. Just like the Law of Tithing – this is up to us and the Lord. The Bishop is instructed to not define how this law is to be lived by each individual, it is up to them to answer based on their own convictions.
I would examine the Church’s counsel and weigh it against what the bishop told you. I believe the Church is silent on the specific issue of masturbation for married couples, but it is not silent on more general principles that help govern marital intimacy (such as fidelity, honesty, strengthening the loving bond with your spouse, etc). Use the principles the Church teaches about marital intimacy, in consultation with your husband, to guide your decision. Are you trying to strengthen your marital bond? Are you being honest with your husband? I think it’s wise to consider your bishop’s counsel and try to understand why he feels the way he does. Looking at both sides of the issue can help you avoid behaviors down the road that could be detrimental to your marriage.
After you weigh both sides of the issue, decide what is best for your marriage and then act on that decision with confidence. Don’t vascillate and feel guilty or shameful for making a decision that you believe promotes a loving and righteous marriage. Be confident. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with reassessing your decision down the road as you learn and progress with experience. But in the meantime, there’s no benefit with proceeding through life with constant self-doubt and anxiety.
You don’t have to have a spirit of defiance when making your decision. I believe it’s appropriate to take the bishop’s counsel under advisement, but ultimately not agree with it for your own marriage. As far as worthiness, bishops are to ask if you obey the law of chastity, and, if you believe your behavior is in conformity with the law, you can answer with confidence that you are worthy without giving details. I believe you can do this while still truly respecting and honoring your bishop and without any enmity towards his counsel.
I don’t think there is any reason to meet with him to respectfully challenge his point of view. You don’t need to proactively seek approval from your bishop in all aspects of your life to be in good standing with your spouse and with God. Those are the relationships that matter. We should be grateful for loving Church leaders that serve and guide us, but we don’t have to prove anything to them or seek their approval in all things. I think you should be much more concerned about what your husband thinks about the issue.
Hope that is helpful.
The second is that secular literature is very confusing on this subject, but Church guidance and doctrine is not. Mental health issues or not, the goal is to be the best person, husband, wife, child, disciple, and so on that we can be, and in the gospel it is not just being good, but constantly striving to attain perfection within an eternal perspective. For some people this can take a long time to acquire, for others they may always have had it, while for other it takes time but may come quickly.
President Kimball quoted John Taylor as saying that forgiveness is in advance of justice where repentance is concerned. We therefore have an obligation to preach repentance for a number of different reasons, one being the role it has in helping us feel encouraged even if we are in the midst of sin. Personally, I don’t believe masturbation should ever be encouraged.
I would agree that most LDS women would be very upset to learn that their husband masturbates in private – at least those from my generation. But I don’t know if it is because of the physical act alone, but the assumption that they are thinking about other women when they do it.
It would be interesting to see a poll on this topic. What is the real objection: the act, the concern about straying thoughts, the feeling of being inadequate, etc…?
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