Merry Christmas – Its Fine, You Can Say It!

Merry Christmas – Its Fine, You Can Say It! December 24, 2015

Have you ever wondered whether you would incur “Allah’s wrath” if you wished Merry Christmas to your Christian friends, or celebrated Christmas? As it turns out, chances are that if you’ve been raised in a conservative household, this has kept you occupied!

To be honest, it seems awfully absurd to me—this idea that celebrating Christmas has theological implications and consequences. But as Facebook reminds me, this wasn’t always the case. A few years ago, I shared the following quote by Zakir Naik, a Muslim scholar, on my page:

“When you’re wishing merry Christmas to them… you’re agreeing that he is the begotten son of god, which is shirk (association with God)”

Evidently, it was quite a popular post, gathering many “likes” from my Facebook friends. Now that I am confronted with an embarrassing aspect of my past, I feel, at once, both relieved and ashamed. It reminds me of the potentially devastating consequences of ignorance on a person, and society at large.

I didn’t know much about religion, then. In fact, I practically knew nothing aside from the 5 pillars and the very basics of Islam. But I shared it anyway since Zakir Naik is a “scholar” who enjoys considerable support from Muslims and I assumed he knew what he was talking about. Besides, since such sentiments are popular, I probably posted it to gain social currency and validation.

Basic psychology…

This glimpse into my past offers me an insight as to why such simplistic and divisive notions are so popular and go unchallenged. For one, as far as I’ve observed, many of us are socially programmed to respect the “status-quo” (read: anyone with a beard who can talk religion), and not think critically about matters of faith. The reasoning goes that thinking might lead to kufr (disbelief), so it is best avoided.

Instead, the status quo is given the luxury of our blind obedience, deeming their interpretations as God’s truth. And since many of these imams espouse a very reductive and cursory reading of Islam, it creates a culture where religion is mainly used as a source of pushing an “us vs them” narrative, infiltrating societies with intolerant attitudes and a lack of appreciation for diversity and pluralism.

It is no wonder that attitudes towards Muslim minorities such as Shias, Ahmadis, LGBT’s etc. are so morally repugnant. Of course, decades of brutal dictatorships in Muslim majority states hindering democracy and secularism doesn’t help either.

Secondly, much of mainstream Islamic discourse today revolves around trivia and pedantry. We’re often found discussing the permissibility of dogs, music, “correct” ways of worship, and in this particular case, whether it is permissible to wish Merry Christmas and celebrate a “pagan” festival.

This, too, contributes to a culture where people are discouraged to pursue independent thought in fear of “getting it wrong” and remain tangled in a series of non-issues. All the while, the really pressing issues that face us are swept under the rug.

Such is the lack of introspection that when non-Muslims in the West express their solidarity with initiatives like “Wear a Hijab” day or fasting a day in Ramadan to combat Islamophobia, these acts are lauded, and rightly so. But when it’s our turn to express solidarity with non-Muslims, in some cases theology comes into play. What is this, if not hypocrisy?

No, neither wishing Merry Christmas nor celebrating Christmas implies that you believe Jesus is son of God. If that were the case, the very mention of Thursday (Thor’s day) would, by the same logic, imply that you believe Thor is a son of God. The whole idea really is that absurd—a fallacious argument employed by short-sighted religious preachers like Zakir Naik who know no better.

It is high time we stop glorifying such mediocre preachers, and seek out genuine scholars who are able to provide more nuanced arguments. Moreover, let’s not be afraid of thinking critically about religious matters. You’d be surprised how much the Quran emphasis critical thinking and not following religious leaders blindly.

To quote Immanuel Kant, “Dare to know! Have the courage to use your own intelligence!”

So, pity the likes of Zakir Naik while you go out and build bridges of love with Christians. What’s the point of religion if not to make us more compassionate, more receptive to each other?

Here’s my admission of Kufr: Merry Christmas, ya’ll!

Ro Waseem is a progressive Muslim and founder of this blog. He aims to promote pluralism, unity, and critical thinking in matters of faith. You may browse through his articles here.

RELATED: 6 Convincing Reasons Debunking the Myth of Islam Promoting Hatred of Jews and Christians


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  • Just Saying

    i can’t believe anyone takes that zakir naik guy seriously. i’ve seen several of his answers to questions on that peace tv and he is clearly an idiot. but something else is quite clear too, he is not alone in the muslim world. Somalia banned christmas this yer alone with Tajikistan and Brunei. and the world renowned salafi scholar al-munajiid [however you spell his name], of blamed the christmas day tsunami on people celebrating christmas and new years. many of the muslim scholars make wackdo pat roberts look like Einstein.

  • aamir

    Brother Alhumdullah Allah swt. Has opened up the pathways for you to extract the truth but be aware of Iblees (satat) he is our open enemy . I have gone through many of ur blogs and feel you are absolutely following the quraan but one thing I as a brother want to suggest you and that is if we start following and celebrating festivals of others a time will come when our generations will feel no difference between Islam and others ..And remember Allah swt says in quraan ” إِنَّ ٱلدِّينَ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ ٱلْإِسْلَٰمُ ۗ وَمَا ٱخْتَلَفَ ٱلَّذِينَ أُوتُوا۟ ٱلْكِتَٰبَ إِلَّا مِنۢ بَعْدِ مَا جَآءَهُمُ ٱلْعِلْمُ بَغْيًۢا بَيْنَهُمْ ۗ وَمَن يَكْفُرْ بِـَٔايَٰتِ ٱللَّهِ فَإِنَّ ٱللَّهَ سَرِيعُ ٱلْحِسَابِ

    Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them – out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah, then indeed, Allah is swift in [taking] account”(3:19) so although we need to respect people with the intention of conveying them the true msg of Islam but for that we can not get coloured in that colour like if you want to help your friend to quit drugs for that you need not test and start drugs and not even talks to promote that intoxicant/drug…imagin on one side you want ur friend to quit a bad thing but on the other hand you are even wishing them and promoting that wrong act. And as you after reading meanings and tafseer of Allah’s book will be knowing a wrong religion/way of life is far worst then poison/drugs/intoxicants….so wishing christmis or diwali or etc etc you are atleast promoting the importance of there wrong faith just to make them happy ,but what obout Allah ? Will he be happy with such acts have u ever thought ??.hope u unserstand what I try to say …jazak Allah..and after all we know how happy and pure are these days of non believers most of the adultry and all the bad things happen on these day and i am afraid we may then have to wish them on all idiot things like Halloween etc ect….

  • aamir

    On the day of judjement all will be clear …in sha Allah …be prepared

  • aamir

    I know many of the muslim so called scholars are away from Quraan but it doesnot mean All , if you have a light To know the truth from Allah swt which indeed is a big blessing infact the biggest of all blessing inside of, you u could definately identify the true scholars ” and easily differentiate between truth and false….

  • JoeySixPack

    so tell me, who are the true scholars?

  • aamir

    True scholars are the ones who donot say anything on there own ,what ever they try to convey they have a proper context with a proper refrence to Quraan(the litmus test to judge the truth) . morever they do not have use islam for there own benefit and all they want is to convey the true msg of islam , rest Allah know the best.

  • aamir

    If u are truthful and have not correpted yourself then i feel its not to identify a true momin scholar even in the heard of 1000’s. But if we are overselves wrong and materialistic then we would be attracted towards so called scholars like our ownselves …..As Allah swt. Says in the Quran “إِنَّمَا ٱلْمُؤْمِنُونَ ٱلَّذِينَ إِذَا ذُكِرَ ٱللَّهُ وَجِلَتْ قُلُوبُهُمْ وَإِذَا تُلِيَتْ عَلَيْهِمْ ءَايَٰتُهُۥ زَادَتْهُمْ إِيمَٰنًۭا وَعَلَىٰ رَبِّهِمْ يَتَوَكَّلُونَ

    The true believers are those who, when Allah’s name is mentioned, their hearts quake, and when His verses are recited to them their faith grows, and who put their trust in their Lord;…so its a default setting inside believers whenever they here Allahs aayats(verses of Quran) they fear Allah and its leads to increase in there faith….

  • aamir

    Subhan Allah ( Allah is the greatest )

  • JoeySixPack

    You got any names?

  • Arun nt

    I wonder u are sooooooo interested in islam?

  • JoeySixPack

    so what is the proof of rape in sharia?

  • aamir

    By the way u need not know any scholar and still u can be a practicing muslim ..just read quraan …that sufficient

  • JoeySixPack

    so you can’t name a single scholar? how about the founders of the four major sunni madhabs? maliki, hanifi, hanbali, shaifi [however you spell those]. how about Ibn Taymiyyah or al-ghazali?

  • JoeySixPack

    are you a saudi? how about al-munajiid?

  • aamir

    Allah swt had completed all the aspects of islam centuries before the 4 imams came on face of this earth ……حُرِّمَتْ عَلَيْكُمُ ٱلْمَيْتَةُ وَٱلدَّمُ وَلَحْمُ ٱلْخِنزِيرِ وَمَآ أُهِلَّ لِغَيْرِ ٱللَّهِ بِهِۦ وَٱلْمُنْخَنِقَةُ وَٱلْمَوْقُوذَةُ وَٱلْمُتَرَدِّيَةُ وَٱلنَّطِيحَةُ وَمَآ أَكَلَ ٱلسَّبُعُ إِلَّا مَا ذَكَّيْتُمْ وَمَا ذُبِحَ عَلَى ٱلنُّصُبِ وَأَن تَسْتَقْسِمُوا۟ بِٱلْأَزْلَٰمِ ۚ ذَٰلِكُمْ فِسْقٌ ۗ ٱلْيَوْمَ يَئِسَ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا۟ مِن دِينِكُمْ فَلَا تَخْشَوْهُمْ وَٱخْشَوْنِ ۚ ٱلْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِى وَرَضِيتُ لَكُمُ ٱلْإِسْلَٰمَ دِينًۭا ۚ فَمَنِ ٱضْطُرَّ فِى مَخْمَصَةٍ غَيْرَ مُتَجَانِفٍۢ لِّإِثْمٍۢ ۙ فَإِنَّ ٱللَّهَ غَفُورٌۭ رَّحِيمٌۭ

    Forbidden to you are carrion, blood, the flesh of swine, the animal slaughtered in any name other than Allah’s, the animal which has either been strangled, killed by blows, has died of a fall, by goring or that devoured by a beast of prey – unless it be that which you yourselves might have slaughtered while it was still alive – and that which was slaughtered at the altars. – You are also forbidden to seek knowledge of your fate by divining arrows. All these are sinful acts. This day the unbelievers have fully despaired of your religion. Do not fear them; but fear Me. This day I have perfected for you your religion, and have bestowed upon you My bounty in full measure, and have been pleased to assign for you Islam as your religion. (Follow, then, the lawful and unlawful bounds enjoined upon you.) As for he who is driven by hunger, without being wilfully inclined to sin, surely Allah is All-Forgiving, All-Compassionate. (Al quran 5:3) ….so itz already complete no imam or scholar can add or deduct any of its aspects…imams became imams only after reading and understanding Quran..and authentic hadits ..and Alhumdullah we have the same Quran and authentic hadits available to us ,so we can learn where from imams learnt …thats are the notes of Allah swt. What else we want

  • JoeySixPack

    yes, i’m familiar with 5:3. in fact i’m pretty familiar with the 5th sura. ok. you don’t want to name any scholars. so maybe you can answer the questions. 5:32 and 33 both say to kill people for spreading corruption, sometimes translated as mischief. so what does that entail? who should be crucified?

  • aamir

    مِنْ أَجْلِ ذَٰلِكَ كَتَبْنَا عَلَىٰ بَنِىٓ إِسْرَٰٓءِيلَ أَنَّهُۥ مَن قَتَلَ نَفْسًۢا بِغَيْرِ نَفْسٍ أَوْ فَسَادٍۢ فِى ٱلْأَرْضِ فَكَأَنَّمَا قَتَلَ ٱلنَّاسَ جَمِيعًۭا وَمَنْ أَحْيَاهَا فَكَأَنَّمَآ أَحْيَا ٱلنَّاسَ جَمِيعًۭا ۚ وَلَقَدْ جَآءَتْهُمْ رُسُلُنَا بِٱلْبَيِّنَٰتِ ثُمَّ إِنَّ كَثِيرًۭا مِّنْهُم بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ فِى ٱلْأَرْضِ لَمُسْرِفُونَ

    Therefore We ordained for the Children of Israel that he who slays a soul unless it be (in punishment) for murder or for spreading mischief on earth shall be as if he had slain all mankind; and he who saves a life shall be as if he had given life to all mankind. And indeed again and again did Our Messengers come to them with clear directives; yet many of them continued to commit excesses on earth5:32)…what I feel about this is about people who create misunderstanding regarding simple rules of religion/islam. Try to divert people away from true path does such activities for which ruling is to be killed like adultry ,kill innocent people and in brief this aayat can be implemented to may of todays politicians who for the vote bank can go to any limits and creat situations of voilance

  • aamir

    There are no killings on face of this earth like that of the political strategies ,whites are manuplated to kill blacks and blacks to kill white .people of one religion are made to kill others ,,just for the cause of this material earth ,,so i feel those who create mischief one of those may be todays politicians ….rest Allah hu Allam

  • JoeySixPack

    ok. so if i were to stand on the street corner and say islam is a false religion, would you define that as spreading corruption and say i should be put to death?

  • JoeySixPack

    ok. so should donald trump be executed?

  • aamir

    Definately if you are living in a country of islamic sharya ,dont try that …

  • JoeySixPack

    good to know.

  • aamir

    R u a christian ??

  • aamir

    Until By your actions and conduct it is proved that you are dangerous to the society ,i dont think just by saying some thing about which you have no idea u could be punished that point it is the duty of muslims to ask you about your doubts about islam and try to convey the actual answer ,as islam is not a fake religion how could you say its fake …they should ask you why you telling something fake when it is not …like you are looking onto the sun during bright day light and saying thats not sun …

  • JoeySixPack

    No, I’m an atheist I think all religions are false

  • aamir

    Well ! When you get to know basics of almost all religions for that you need to go throug the books of that religion and eventually you will get to know all religions have some common points despite of the fact now there are large curruptions in most of the books of religion except Quran. And its the historic fact as well that quran is preserved in its original forms since it was revealed . so even if all the books are wrong in most of the things now you can say them fake and fabricated but it is not the case with Islam. And as far as atheism is concerned just look at the moon or sun and the turning of day and night and the blow of suitable winds to cultivate crops ,watercycle ,saltness of sea the brightness if stars and over all the excellence of the human body and mind ..All these things witness that these are not mere coincidence and have a creator who is greatest and the most merciful the perfectly wise ,the best of the artist the one and only ,to whom belong all good names and who is alone to be worshipped …

  • JoeySixPack

    So is it dangerous to society to state a belief other than islam? Say to be an idol worshipper, or an atheist?

  • JoeySixPack

    Didn’t uthman rewrite the koran?

  • Mohd.

    wut? nope, the quran have always been the same.

  • JoeySixPack

    it is called uthmani script for a reason.

  • Mohd.

    yeah it’s just like a “font” if that makes it easier for you to understand, it’s about the way the letters are written, not how they are read.

  • JoeySixPack

    So how do you know it is u changed?

  • JoeySixPack

    Not changed.

  • Mohd.

    btw, the othman script is the most common one, but there are other scripts too, all can be read exactly the same, just the matter of “font”.

  • JoeySixPack

    Ok. So how do you know the koran is unchanged?

  • aamir

    وَنُنَزِّلُ مِنَ ٱلْقُرْءَانِ مَا هُوَ شِفَآءٌۭ وَرَحْمَةٌۭ لِّلْمُؤْمِنِينَ ۙ وَلَا يَزِيدُ ٱلظَّٰلِمِينَ إِلَّا خَسَارًۭا

    We send down (stage by stage) in the Qur’an that which is a healing and a mercy to those who believe: to the unjust it causes nothing but loss after loss.

  • JoeySixPack

    Ok. What does that have to do with anything? So you think lashing people is a mercy?

  • aamir

    And about rewriting quran dont be bothered as Allah swt. Has himself taken the responsibility of protecting it إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا ٱلذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُۥ لَحَٰفِظُونَ

    As for the Admonition, indeed it is We Who have revealed it and it is indeed We Who are its guardians.”

  • aamir

    And is int it a mercy that if your mother or sister is raped by some street guy to lash him to death …what would you do to such a fellow ..i would want to cut him down into small pieces ..

  • Mohd.

    because the Quran has always been the same, Muslims read it and use it in prayers and memorize it, I myself perfectly memorized 10/30 of it and have friends who memorize the entire Quran and that’s how things have always been since the verses were revealed, and when the slightest change happens (by mistake or allegedly) even if to a single letter it would be exposed and reported and those copies (or apps if it’s something electronic) would be removes from stores and shelves everywhere, in fact for any -printed- (or officially sponsored in any way) copy of the Quran it normally gets checked by Muslim scholars and Islam affairs departments of several Muslim governments to check that they all agree that there’s nothing wrong in anyway in the “releases” (as a design and version and handwriting) before they go to printing.
    also every verse in the Quran has a story linked to it from the biography of prophet mohamed so it’s all connected together and well studied by us.

    don’t think of it as the bible that Christians don’t read but blindly follow what the church tells them.

  • JoeySixPack

    So maybe you can tell me, when do you crucify someone per 5:33?

  • Mohd.

    killing: to those who killed innocents allegedly. (unless forgiven by the family of the victim if it was just one person but that’s not the case here since this verse is mainly talking about Bandits as you’ll see from the crucifying part).
    crucifying: for those who killed innocents to steal them (obviously and stole too).
    cutting a hand: for those who stole but didn’t kill (there are exceptions and rules for this just like in all of the other punishments).

    In case you don’t get it: the point of those punishments is to prevent people from even thinking about committing the crimes.

  • JoeySixPack

    yes draco made similar laws, “to prevent people from even thinking about committing the crimes.”
    so spreading corruption doesn’t include homosexuality or apostasy? or adultery?

  • Mohd.

    this verse was talking mainly about bandits, however regarding what you mentioned:
    -homosexuality: is only common/notable in over-sexualized societies like the west at this time, and the punishments for committing it is the same as for committing adultery for non married people (whipping/lashes) note that this is in both homosexuality and adultery applicable to both males and females (and no, rape victims don’t get punished), and note that those with attraction to the same sex do get medical help to change that, and it works, the punishment is not for “being gay” but rather for committing gay sex.

    -apostasy: yes those laws exist too, mainly because back in the time of prophet mohamed there were non-Muslims who pretended to “converted to Islam” in hypocrisy and already planning to leave Islam later on claiming that they found something wrong in Islam that made them leave it back, supposedly Muslims are two kinds: 1 -those who are born and raised as Muslims, and those supposedly know enough in Islam to know that there’s nothing wrong in it, and since there is a convincing answer to all their questions so it’s unlike Christianity where many things are kept “secret”, so there shouldn’t be a reason for one of them to leave Islam, and for kind 2-those who converted to Islam: and supposedly before you convert to a religion you have studied it enough so that you are sure it’s the right choice for you, to the point where you decided to leave your old faith (that doesn’t make sense to you anymore) and you’re sure that Islam is the right thing for you.
    and for both kinds: religion is not a game, and if one found the truth in his life then he did the main purpose of his life, and if he lost it then his life lost it’s meaning and have to reason anymore, with that being said, when one PUBLICLY announces that they left Islam they are given a fair trail and several days to think about it that include people who are willing to answer his questions (and they always prove him wrong) and if they couldn’t prove him wrong then he would have the right to keep leaving Islam and stay alive. (which never happens since there’s an answer to everything).

    -adultery: again those laws are mainly to protect societies structure (each child have responsible mother and father) and prevent the spread of STDs, the punishments for adultery are only applied when it’s 100% sure that people committed it, that is either 4 different witnesses who all swear that they saw it (and they get separately asked questions about detail of what happened to prove that they all actually saw it as their sayings should be matching), and if it turned out they were lying they get whipped/lashes for attacking the honor of other people. for this time this can be proved using video tape (but yeah such a law wouldn’t make sense to people who upload videos of them having sex to the internet).
    and the punishment is separated to two kinds:
    -non married people: lashes/whipping.
    -married people (cheating): stoning, the reason why it’s like that is because it takes such a spoiled person that even though he got a partner on his own to have sex with he still decided to to it the wrong and prohibited way.

    note: when imagining those laws in action don’t imagine the society to be like the western society of yours, society would be all a modest, civil, and caring about science and justice, those laws wouldn’t make sense to people in a western society that is overseuxalized in every possible way.

  • JoeySixPack

    thanks for your reply. but we have a saying here in the over sexualized west: ‘the devil is in the details’.

    you are saying that it is ok to be gay, just not to act gay? how does one under sharia prove homosexual acts?

    and how does someone prove rape? if a woman accuses a man of rape, and he says they had consensual sex, could she not then be punished?

    so if a woman becomes pregnant and the husband has been away, is that not proof of adultery?

    so you support the lashing and stoning of people? wow. ok.

    “when imagining those laws in action don’t imagine the society to be like the western society of yours, society would be all a modest
    , civil…” so how do you create this modest society? do you demand that women wear a hijab? the niqab? do you ban women from driving or leaving the house without a wali?

  • Mohd.

    good sense of humor,no, what i’m saying is that in a non-oversexualized society like the west people simply wouldn’t be gay (oh please don’t start telling about how it’s “scientifically proven” that a person’s sexual orientation is set when he’s a fetus in his mother’s womb), and when one is raised correctly, a man setting with men and acting like men he wouldn’t be gay, same goes with women.
    and no it’s NOT ok to be gay, but it’s NOT punishable either, if someone somehow turned gay they would tell a family member or someone who can help so he can get medical help for it, because yet, it’s a physiological thing, and before you start discussing that with me: why is it ok for trans people to fix their entire body but it’s not ok for homosexual people to fix their orientation? with that all being said homosexuality was so alien to the arab (even non muslim) society that when they were told about the people of sodom it was the first time they heard of this thing existing.

    “consensual sex”? if outside marriage that is called adultery, and rape wasn’t really a thing in muslim society back then, with that being said people have their eyes wide open and would see if something is going wrong in the streets or if a man is trying to drag a woman and they would defend her (and obviously a woman wouldn’t go with a non-relative man into his house or any private place alone in that modest society), as of today’s world rape can be proven through medical tests.

    “so if a woman becomes pregnant and the husband has been away, is that not proof of adultery?” indeed that is a prove of adultery, but this wouldn’t even happen in a muslim socity since people have strong ties with their neighbors and they would know and notice if something is off.

    “so you support the lashing and stoning of people? wow. ok.” yes, lashing and stoning of guilty people, not innocent people, that’ll teach them and teach anyone like them, when one isn’t doing wrong he got nothing to worry about, also don’t pretend that american laws or “modern laws” are cruelty free, you have death sentences and you have terrible treatment (see abu gahrib), not that those punishments very rarely accrued since the society had moral coming from religion that they believe and follow, and that the requirements for the punishment is hard (it’s really not to punish people as much as it is to turn them away from what’s bad) for example for the era of Prophet Mohamed and all the Rashidun Caliphs those punishments happened less than 50 times combined (stealing, adultery and all across the entire Muslim world of their times, note that there were no cases of sodomy).

    “so how do you create this modest society?” just like western society turned slowly but steadily into the exact opposite just because people think it’s the right thing, and know that in any society with muslim majority (that isn’t a brainwashing dictatorship like we have today but rather with an ACTUAL islamic government -also not like ISIS, or iran, or saudi-) if would just work by itself because people believe that it’s the right thing.
    “do you demand that women wear a hijab? the niqab?” i do not demand it but God demands women to wear the hijab, to some people they believe that hijab includes the face so that’s what we call niqab, (and there’s also a dress code for men too but is a little easier since women aren’t as easily aroused and since men do the physical jobs that can’t be done with heavy clothing), so without men forcing it on women all women wore hijab by themselves because they believe it’s the right thing,
    and if you think for a second that muslim women wear hijab against their well then watch this video of a young syrian girl getting rescued from under the rubble and asking the documenting man not to film her since she is not wearing the hijab. (duh, women don’t wear hijab when there aren’t strange- like not close relative- men, such as when in their house with their family)
    fact: before western invasion on the Muslim world after the -planned- collapse of the ottoman caliphate you would never see a non-hijabi woman in the streets of muslim cities, that includes non-mulims because they were a part of the society and actually liked it’s values without being forced to do it (regulations would force respectful clothing -shocker! they can’t walk topless!!!- but not hijab or niqab). (i know some christians from syria who actually wear hijab (by choice), and 50 years ago most Lebanese chirstians wore it by choice too).
    (btw till this day most non-muslims in Muslim societies are still against adultery and homosexual relations)
    with that being said: yes, hijab does help make the society more modest and treat women like humans rather than objects that anyone can look at and being valued by their looks rather than their brains like in western society today (can’t deny it, she said it herself:

    “do you ban women from driving?” no, both my mother and sister can drive, saudi law is a federal law just like every other “muslim” country in the world today, and women driving is permitted in islam there’s nothing wrong with it as long as her “wali” – i like your term- knows where she’s going (and that’s for her own safety since men are responsible for the safety and good living of their wife(s), daughters, and close female relatives, not that he can’t prevent her from going out -as long as it’s for something halal obviously- unless if it’s dangerous for her (like a dark area late at night/insert dangerous situation here).
    and no, women can go out without their “guardian” as long as he (the guardian) knows about it (as explained above).
    with that being said in our society women actually like and prefer having a relative man (like the husband, brother, or old son) walk with them if it’s late at night or too crowded, or with them in the car if it’s too far from home.

  • Never is the correct answer. 5:33 is descriptive, not prescriptive.

    For example, to say, “those who live by the sword die by the sword” is not the same as saying something like, “you need to punish people by executing them with a sword.”

    If you insist on making assertions about the Quran, you should brush up on Arabic grammar.

  • JoeySixPack

    ah, now you are breaking out Muhammad asad and micheal elwood (lol)? so why is it that many Arabic speakers don’t seem to know this? why did mohd. not know this? do you think he doesn’t speak Arabic? what assertion did I make about the Koran? I asked a question. so is 5:45 prescriptive? an eye for an eye…a life for a life?

  • JoeySixPack

    I have no idea what makes people gay. it could be genetic, epigenetics, nature, whatever. but why is it a sin. and why should gay acts be punishable by death?

    so in a muslim society no woman will become pregnant with a man other than her husband child? really, then what is this hadith about?

    He (the narrator) said: There came to him (the Holy Prophet) a woman from Ghamid and said: Allah’s Messenger, I have committed adultery, so purify me. He (the Holy Prophet) turned her away. On the following day she said: Allah’s Messenger, Why do you turn me away? Perhaps, you turn me away as you turned away Ma’iz. By Allah, I have become pregnant. He said: Well, if you insist upon it, then go away until you give birth to (the child). When she was delivered she came with the child (wrapped) in a rag and said: Here is the child whom I have given birth to. He said: Go away and suckle him until you wean him. When she had weaned him, she came to him (the Holy Prophet) with the child who was holding a piece of bread in his hand. She said: Allah’s Apostle, here is he as I have weaned him and he eats food. He (the Holy Prophet) entrusted the child to one of the Muslims and then pronounced punishment. And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people and they stoned her. Khalid b Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and so he abused her. Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) heard his (Khalid’s) curse that he had huried upon her. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Khalid, be gentle. By Him in Whose Hand is my life, she has made such a repentance that even if a wrongful tax-collector were to repent, he would have been forgiven. Then giving command regarding her, he prayed over her and she was buried.

  • Nothing wrong with Muhammad Asad, who learned Arabic and was a scholar. No, 5:45 isn’t prescriptive. Read it in context. It refers to the Torah.

  • JoeySixPack

    yes it is referring to the torah. much of the surah is referring back. before 5:32 the story of cain killing abel is retold. ‘because of this, we did ordain unto the children of Israel. is not the torah considered a divine scripture in islam? are you now telling me that Muhammad is abolishing the laws of the torah?

    [5.43] And how do they make you a judge and they have the Taurat wherein is Allah’s judgment? Yet they turn back after that, and these are not the believers.
    [5.44] Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.
    [5.45] And We prescribed to them in it that life is for life, and eye for eye, and nose for nose, and ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and (that there is) reprisal in wounds; but he who foregoes it, it shall be an expiation for him; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unjust.
    [5.46] And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).
    [5.47] And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.
    [5.48] And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;
    [5.49] And that you should judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires, and be cautious of them, lest they seduce you from part of what Allah has revealed to you; but if they turn back, then know that Allah desires to afflict them on account of some of their faults; and most surely many of the people are transgressors.

    sounds like he is doubling down on the torah/taurat.

  • Mohd.

    “I have no idea what makes people gay. it could be genetic, epigenetics, nature, whatever.” you have no idea but i have an idea: it’s society, and the stupid and confusing way people are raised in the west, like hell even women clothing are now being modeled by male! all this “no labeling” crap is doing it’s part, if you want to say it’s genetics there should be scientific PROVE, not theory or hypothesis (yeah i know the two are different), but no it’s sure as hell not natural for humans to do, guess what else is natural? the black widow female kills the male after mating, just because something is done by other animals as a protection method doesn’t mean it’s natural for humans to do.

    “but why is it a sin. and why should gay acts be punishable by death?”, you know what else is MAJOR sin in Islam? many things that you ironically consider -civil-, like drinking alcohol, adultery, doing drugs.
    but to answer “why is it a sin”: because, it’s unnatural, and because that doesn’t make humans sustainable (that’s not how humans reproduce), and it spreads STDs even faster than normal adultery (the numbers are about double for gay people than straight people in the US).

    regarding the hadith (which i already know in Arabic so don’t think i’m changing my saying because of it now), I didn’t mean to say it’s impossible (although now i realized that indeed that’s what one sentence of my last comment sounded like), and that’s why in the first place the punishment exists, now to clarify: things like a sex tape, an image of the two having sex, or becoming pregnant are all indeed proofs of adultery, however if you want to accuse someone of rape you must have four eye-witnesses who saw them in intercourse (which is near impossible), as as you can see in the hadith in most cases it was the people reporting it themselves (since if a person is punished for something in this life then they will not be punished for it in the afterlife)

    the point of those punishments is not to “punish as many people as possible” no, even if that means some people getting away with it, god will punish them for it in the afterlife, unless for course if they Repent and decided to never do it again, then god forgives them,

    the point of all those laws is to protect the society and it’s structure, and the majority of the humans in the group,. even if that means protecting them from themselves (yes, people make poor choices too many times when they don’t see the consequences)
    to sum it up:
    -adultery: illegal children with no family to take care of them, and STDs
    -sodomy: no reproduction, -more- STDs, also it’s anal, and unnatural.
    -alcohol: poison to the body, harmful, and incidents (like drunk driving).

  • JoeySixPack

    ah yes, the stoning ‘washes away the sin’. so your god forgives if someone is pummeled to death with rocks. does he enjoy seeing people I pain? there have always been gay people.
    so to proof rape you must have 4 eye-witnesses. that is insane. so what happens if a woman reports rape and the man says it was consensual sex. is the woman lashed per 24:2
    so why is shirk the one unforgivable sin? how is that ‘protecting society’?

  • Krishna Murti

    So Ilisha stalking Mike again. Two atheists making out on the Quran. Give me a break.

    Got the hots again Ilisha…wet? Get a room. And Fu^k away.

  • Krishna Murti

    Go get a room. Don’t give another obscene exhibition of Obese Pig Mike and Flabby Sow Ilisha doing it. Don’t foul the Quran. Talking about verses you have not the foggiest. Give me a break.

    Ilisha Auntie you got the hots again for him. Hot and wet, go get a room and the blue pill for him. You are NOT a Muslim. You know nothing about the Quran. Leave it alone out of your tryst. Two atheist using it for sexual purposes is beyond profane and obscene.

    Go spread your thunder thighs open you mouth in Loonwatch where you belong. Get some knee pads you are one fucked up shameless slut, Ilisha.

  • Krishna Murti

    “There isn’t anything remotely sexual about the debate between mike and me”
    Tell that to those you can fool. It is not sex just perversion and depravity that turns you on. Foreplay is always sexual. You stalk and s!ut. I know you now better than you know you.

    How is he spreading falsehood. How can you correct him. You are not a Muslim. You know nothing about Islam. You are a player. A co^ck jumper, Coc^k sucker galore.

    You are hot and wet that’s all. Safer for you to keep him in Loonwatch and fuck him there. Don’t make a spectacle of yourself all over the ‘Net.

    They banned him in MG so now you are here s!uting away. Ilisha you are one shameless fucked up fat old menopausal bitch.

  • Krishna Murti

    Don’t fool yourself. Don’t tell me about God. Shame on you. You non believer. You are not a Muslim. You don’t believe in God. You believe in riding and sucking penises. You have an obsession with penises. You are a occk rider. Jumping one from the other given the affairs and lovers you have had. You adulterous slut. I know you and I know your Mike. I know where you are located My imagination is gold. I live and paid for it. My grant is based on how well I can visualize and project.

    Even more, my predictions, on which I staked my reputation and grant came out exactly as predicted as profiled, it came out correct about you. I had to give a talk on it and stake my reputation on it.

    Your secrecy paranoia and double life may fool others but I know woman, sluts like you especially. I know more about your character, personal life, life situation than you can imagine. For one thing you are not a Muslim. Not even close. You are a scam artiste there.

    “I have never done anything to you and don’t want trouble from you.”
    You must have a very short memory span. When I was on LW you abused me and my race and my parents. Unbelievable obscenities you inflicted on me, and aided and abetted others in doing the same.

    And when I tried to respond in the most polite and humble manner you blocked me off. Then when I went over to MG you pursued me and made advances to me, came out to me all hot and wet and when I snubbed you, you had me banned while deleting your come hither posts to me. Making me seem the offender. You think that is nothing.

    As if you were the innocent party. Considering how many affairs you have had and before how many you have spread your legs, opened your thighs to. How many coc^ks have pumped your cun’t and parted your lips.You are an easy lay. Have always been as easy fuck. How many have fucked you, innocent, that really takes the cake. And you go around telling other women calling them feminists, sluts, adulteresses and STD etc. Shame on you Ilisha, you fucked up cold blooded old flabby ugly bitch.

    You are nothing but a feeble minded low IQ semi educated slut cow with a lot of devious animal cunning, little intelligence no common sense. Stone stupid.

    Your propensity for picking up lovers is well known. It finally gave you away. Even though you have managed it all with great secrecy and planning. You failed. You are a profane, ugly, bad charactered loose woman, profoundly behaya piece of shit as most s!uts are.

    I had given a you a chance to make amends but you in your stupid arrogance had me banned from MG while putting the blame on me. Deleting your incriminating posts. Now that is the ultimate deceit, lies and cunning. Sluts have mastered that art. You have been fucking since your teens. You used your cunning and depravity to incriminate me for what I had not done. And you say you have done nothing to me.

    I have tried many times to contact El Cid when he was in Morocco and later in Emirates but he has not responded. I also had a couple of girls on my team to give it a try but he did not respond to them either.

    I have also sent him the details of your sexual activities, work against Islam and his beloved Prophet Muhammad so that he does not have any pain in his heart because of his love and adoration for you.

    That he cleans his mind off you. I will be telling him that you are an older menopausal woman who cannot have a family with him physically and that you are all fucked up and used up sexually, incapable to have an emotional companionship or bond with him.

    I want to know his side of the story too. Why was he so much in love with you a woman who even a halfwit can easily figure out is a fucked up shriveled udder old slut.

    I want to know where is his misplaced affection, love for you coming from. Now I am going to ask him to explain the verses you and Mike are butchering as an excuse, charade of public foreplay and planning rendezvous.

    As a Muslim he can not deny their explanation if asked for in sincerity. This is in the Qur’an. I will point him to wherever you are stalking Mike as we can more or less zero in on you now even as you post.

    If you and Loonwatch were indeed Muslims then you people would not have banned him permanently from LW especially when you can get an avowed Islam hater and blasphemer of Muhammad six time in to LW at you disposal. Your fatgut Mike.

    Next we will publish Mike’s photo and likely followed by yours, if El Cid allows that. I don’t want him to jam up the works with his misplaced chivalry for you.

    BTW why did you tell him not to talk to you? Why was he stupid as to respect your silly Shit Test whim? Why for so Long? What about you is so special to him, about you? You are nothing but a fucked up menopausal old bitch, except in his eyes. Why, I want to know. Why the girls in my team get teary eyed when they read his poems and flowers to you? When they have had no effect on you? Are you a transsexual?

    I know that you said the same go away to Mike many times in fact worse, cooties and all. But Mike has experienced prostitutes and did not think much of you. To put you down, that turned you on. Mike continued to use sexual innuendo and fuck word on you till you got hot for him and aroused for him and cannot let him go with one excuse or the other hanging on to him. You think an obese impotent middle aged man will marry you?

    So why the animosity with El Cid. I want to know. That is my job to make and authenticate profiles. What did he do to you except be kind, tender, affectionate loving towards you. What happened between you two. I want to know. I want to fill in that part of the profile. Confidentially or publicly, depends on you and your attitude.

    In any case unless El Cid intercedes you are going to be one fucked up bitch as you already are except that more people especially in your locality and work place will be made aware. Payback for what you did to me. Your racist abuse, bigotry and obscenities and abuse of my parents.

    As I said to you before Karma is a *Bitach*. It has a way back to finding you. You of all people must know that. You know Karma well, Ilisha, you Slutbitch.

  • Mohd.

    you are making it seem like i said something i didn’t say, 4 witnesses are to prove ADULTERY, not rape.
    EDIT: you may not understand this but in a society as modest as the Muslim society adultery is no laughing matter (unlike western so city where people brag about sex they have and are considered legends if they have sex as much as Dan Bilzerian, yet ironically stand against polygamy although it’s marriage where the husband is indeed responsible for all four wives and their children), therefore to put someone in such a shame it takes four witnesses which you yourself called “that is insane”-ly hard 😀 and if they fail to prove it (answering the court’s unknown questions with matching answers that don’t interfere with each other which proves it’s not real) then the fake witnesses themselves get lashes for their act of “qathif” (defamation, slander, slur, calumny), and their witness is never considered credible after that. :END OF EDIT

    and no, the stoning is to scare people from doing the sin, but as i said before, when one is punished for something in this world then he is NOT gonna get punished for it in the after life which is what “washes away the sin” means.

    and no, god does not enjoy seeing paid, there is a hadith about god being more merciful to his creation than a mother is to her infant, don’t forget that by the paid of a few many are being saved from the pain of having no family, or having STDs, losing their loved ones in drunk incidents, and much more.

    “there have always been gay people”

    first let me just add this saying that i came across now by coincidence “there’s nothing more natural than rape. Human beings rape, chimpanzees rape, orangutans rape, rape clearly is part of an evolutionary strategy to get your genes into the nextgeneration” said on “ABC Radio National, Stephen Crittenden interviews Sam Harris”

    secondly there have always been mentally ill people, one thing for sure is that western culture for being oversexualized causes it and spreads it more since society promotes it and drives children to confusion -in the name of not being judgmental- including the recent nonsense about calling school kids “purple penguins” to not associate them with a “gender” they do not identify as! here’s another little example :

    shirk is associating someone with god (worshiping someone with god) which is not something a Muslim would do, however i don’t remember -and wow i don’t see it in my old comments- that this is to protect society, it’s simply about faith, and I ALSO DIDN’T say that this is something that is punishable in hudood law (the punishments part of sharia law -which isn’t about punishments but rather making the life of people a real(istic) Utopia), meaning that it doesn’t have a worldly punishment but it’s left to the after life, just like being a christian where one associates god with Jesus and the “holy ghost”, those are wrong and punishable by god IN THE AFTER LIFE but not by us, those are things that the verse -which if downgraded to english means- “to you be your way and to me mine” or “you have your religion and i have mine”, and that’s a part of the freedom of faith that Islamic law protects.

  • JoeySixPack

    ok. so how does a woman prove rape under sharia?

  • Mohd.

    let ME ask you a question now: how does a woman prove rape in any society? now answer this again without the existence of modern technology.
    also, rape wasn’t a thing back then (except perhaps in times of wars where the enemies rape women out of humiliation) because for one women wouldn’t go out showing their body -which yes, shocker! it has to do with how rapist pick the victims- also there was no reason for rape since there is no porn or sexuality in anything and marriage was easy.
    also since no woman would walk with a strange man into his house then again it wouldn’t happen, also if (assuming) a man tried to drag a woman by force while somehow nobody was looking she could have screamed and you’d see everyone there to kick him up and help her.

  • JoeySixPack

    circumstantial and physical evidence. scratching the attacker is one of the best ways for a woman to leave her mark, literally on an attacker. being able to describe the attacker and explain where and when the attack took place.
    “without the existence of modern technology.” why would you ignore modern technology?
    you claim there was no rape back then yet there are hadiths dealing with it. how can this be? anyway, rape does happen now, even in Islamic countries. so what is proof of rape in sharia law. there have been women in gulf states who have claimed rape and then been jailed for fornication.
    as for your rape of the enemy women in war, that is allowed in islam, right?

  • Mohd.

    well, she can do that and that would be a prove, but, I said “without the existence of modern technology” because i expected that you will mention some method of proving that requires technology, don’t forget that sharia came about 1400 years ago, but of course it is broad enough to be used (as a government) at any time and in any place.

    “you claim there was no rape back then yet there are hadiths dealing with it. how can this be?” just like there were hadiths regarding homosexuality although it was an extremely strange concept back then.
    “anyway, rape does happen now, even in Islamic countries” let me correct you, Muslim countries (aka with Muslim majority) but all of them are dictatorships with federal laws with some laws in it disguised as Islamic which exist only to silent the people, but they still change them slowly, which of course is a system that we don’t want but fighting it is hard and would make any nation that fight it end up like Syria right now.

    “so what is proof of rape in sharia law” a proof is a proof, rape can be proven medically in this time and age, and it can be proven in other ways (such as a security camera showing the victim dragged) etc, i’m not really an expert on how rape can be proven, but what i’m sure of is that rape is “forced adultery”, and like anything that is forced on the person, in Islamic law that person (the victim) is neither punished for it in this life (no lashes or stoning or anything) nor in the after life, since it’s not his choice, as in the quran “6:119” a part of the verse would mean the following when downgraded to english “He [God] hath explained unto you that which is forbidden unto you unless ye are compelled thereto.”

    “as for your rape of the enemy women in war, that is allowed in Islam, right?” haha no, I mean like the Tatar (Mongols) when they invaded baghdad, I mean like the french army when they invaded Algeria and north Africa (here’s one picture ) (the so cute and civil France even had a stamp showcasing some of the millions of algerian Muslims that they beheaded, picture: ), and american army in iraq.
    if you want more pictures you can litrally just seach google images for “french colonization beheaded Algerians”

    speaking of France, here are some facts: the metal used to build the Eiffel tower is stolen from Ouenza city mines in algeria, and till this day France still PUBLICLY takes taxes from the poor African countries that were “before” -yeah right- french colonies, you can read about this here.

    bonus: the one on the left shows Europe when Muslim where ruling parts of it, the one on the right shows Europe was ruling Muslim -African- lands:

  • SparklingMoon,

    Once a delegation of Christian leaders from Najraan came to Medina for debating issues of difference between Islam and Christianity. They stayed there for three days. While engaged in a dialogue in the Holy Prophet’s sa mosque, the time for their prayers arrived. They asked permission from the Holy Prophetsa to go out to offer their prayers. The Holy Prophet, (may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said that the mosque was also a place of worship and they were welcome to pray there, and they did. In the meantime, some companions reached the mosque and saw the Christians worshiping facing the opposite direction from the Qiblah in that Mosque. They moved forward to object to this, but he firmly prohibited them from interfering and said: “I have permitted them because this is the house of God, and no man has the right to object to anyone who worships God in a place devoted for the sake of worship”.

  • SparklingMoon,

    The following Charter of Peace that Prophet of Islam Mohammad (sa) granted to St. Catherine’s Monastery in Mount Sinai in 628, the 6thyear of Hegira (the migration of Prophet of Islam and his companion from Mecca to Madeenah) is, perhaps, the best illustration the Holy Prophet’s desire for inter-religious peace:

    “This is the document which Muhammad, the son of Abdullah, God’s Prophet, Warner and Bearer of glad tidings has caused to be written so that there should remain no excuse for those coming after. I have caused this document to be written for the Christians of the East and West, for those who live near, and for those of the distant lands, for the Christians living at present and for those who will come after, for those Christians who are known to us and for those as well whom we do not know.Any Muslim violating or distorting what has been ordained will be considered to be violating God’s Covenant and will be transgressing against His Promise and by doing so, will incur God’s wrath, be he a monarch or an ordinary subject.

    ”I promise that any monk or wayfarer who will seek my help on the mountains, in forests, deserts or habitations, or places of worship, I will repel his enemies with my friends and helpers, with all my relatives and with all those who profess to follow me and will defend them, because they are my covenant. And I will defend the covenanted against the persecution, injury and embarrassment of their enemies in lieu of the poll tax they have promised to pay. If they prefer to defend their properties and persons themselves, they will be allowed to do so and will not be put to any inconvenience on that account. No bishop will be expelled from his bishopric, no monk from his monastery, no priest from his place of worship, and no pilgrim will be detained in his pilgrimage. None of their churches or other places of worship will be desolated or destroyed or demolished. No material of their churches will be used to build mosques or houses for the Muslims; any Muslim doing so will be regarded as recalcitrant to God and His Prophet. Monks and Bishops will be subject to no poll tax or indemnity whether they live in forests or on rivers, in the East or in the West, in the North or in the South. I give them my word of honor. They are on my promise and covenant and will enjoy perfect immunity from all sorts of inconveniences. Every help shall be given to them in the repair of their churches. They shall be absolved of wearing arms. They shall be protected by the Muslims.

    Let this document not be disobeyed till Judgement Day.”

    (Signed: Muhammad, the Messenger of God)
    (Letters of the Messenger) (Al Wasaiq-ul-Siyasiyya, pp. 187-190)


    Hi Mike, just to keep in touch, changing my profile name from Munna to TESSERACT just as new year resolution. See ya soon..!