Shoved to Them
In my recent post on burying St Joseph statues to speed up a real estate sale, I received a response from a former-Catholic that I think merits its own space for an answer. The original comment is in black and my responses are in red. It’s long. I apologize for that, but some things are worth the space and time.
God declares in 1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”
Proverbs 3:5-6 says to “Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight.”
Therefore, if we truly trust God and He tells us that Jesus is the ONE mediator between Himself and us, then why, why, why do we think prayer to a saint is a better option? We don’t think this. The Catholic Church does not teach this. We believe that the Primary Mediator between God and Man is Jesus Christ. The rest of us, including the saints, are subordinate to Him. That is..we are not God but we are still to pray for each other. This is why in 1Tim 2:1-2 Paul directs us to offer “petitions, prayers, intercession, and thanksgiving …. for everyone.” If the only one who could offer prayers on our behalf to God was Jesus Christ, then why would Paul instruct us to pray for each other? Do you believe that asking another person to pray for you is idolatrous? Is it somehow disrespectful of the primary place of Christ? For example, would it be wrong for me to ask you to pray for me? If not, why not? Do we think God will listen more closely to a saint than He would His own Son? No. The bible says “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16) Do we think some scripture is simply not applicable to ourselves? No. Please tell me where I or the Catholic Church have ever stated that Scripture does not apply to us? Please cite specific examples.
Are there any instances of believers praying to saints in Heaven anywhere in the bible? God COMMANDS “You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea. You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods” (Exodus 20:4-5). In Jeremiah 15:1 and again in Luke 16:27-28, God acknowledges that the dead plead before Him on behalf of the living, and in Zechariah 1:12 that the angels do. So we do know that saints and angels both praying for us. As for the living talking to the dead? Jesus spoke with Elijah and Moses in Matt 17:3, Mark 12:27, Luke 20:38. So if we can speak and the saints will hear us, and the Bible says they pray for us…why wouldn’t we ask them to pray for us? You seem to believe that the dead are gone and buried, but they are not. Their souls are alive in Christ and live in Heaven.
A believer who prays to a saint INSTEAD of God THROUGH the ONE mediator (JESUS) is like a child going through a dear family friend to get the attention of his mother’s heart. You are correct. Nobody should pray to a saint INSTEAD of praying to God. If that were your child, how would that make you feel? My feelings about my children are irrelevant to this discussion. This is an emotional appeal fallacy. It is an appeal to emotion rather than logic. Since feelings can be neither right nor wrong, my feelings do not matter in this debate. Imagine then, how God must feel when we break His Command and trust not in Him with our whole heart? It is impossible for me, a mere human being, to understand the workings of the mind or heart of the Almighty. It would be wrong of me to project my human frailty upon Him. Do you not agree?
I mean not to offend, but there is only one Truth. Jesus says, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6) Why would Jesus say that if it weren’t so? Agreed. I have no debate with that, neither does the Catholic Church.
I mean not to offend. I am never offended by honest questions. I welcome them I’m spent nearly 40 years of my life as a Catholic who knew “about” Jesus. I just didn’t KNOW Him. This is a pity and a shame. Was this the failing of the Church or of your own understanding of its teachings? You seem to be misinformed about what the Church truly teaches. This is one of the sad outcomes of the poor catechesis of the Post-Vatican II era. I am truly sorry. And now that I’ve been given New Life in Christ, You were granted a New Life in Christ at Baptism, i.e. Born Again. It is just lately that you have begun to accept and embrace the life which you were given. I have never been so free or so sure of my salvation since the moment I stopped listening to man and started trusting in the Lord, my God and Savior, Jesus Christ. We are not to be “sure of our salvation”, but to “work out your salvation in fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12) not with a false assurance but in humility and “hopeful confidence” (Rom 5:2). My heart breaks for those who don’t understand the Truth about who Jesus is, and clearly, praying to saints above Him is not understanding who He is or what He did for us on that cross. As I have already said, we are in complete agreement. Anyone who prays to the saints ABOVE Christ is in error.
Feel free to respond, but please don’t be angry with my message. It is not my own. It is God’s. Why would I be angered by anyone who reaches out to me as a Sister in Christ? I believe that you are sadly misguided, but your intentions were pure and loving. I thank you for what you are intending to do.
In Christ, with Love, Laurie
Laurie, I think the problem here is you understanding of the verb “to pray.” You are using the definition “to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship)” Which is the form of the verb that Catholics also use when we talk about praying to God. You, and everyone else who asks about this topic, seem to forget that there is another definition which is “to make petition or entreaty for; crave” as in “She prayed his forgiveness.” Which basically means “to ask”.
Catholicism is an ancient religion. (It goes all the way back to 32 A.D.) Because we are blessed with a long and rich tradition that our modern American Evangelical Protestant brethren are lacking, they often forget that every word we use has been translated into modern vernacular. Therefore, we use an older meaning of the word “pray” than is commonly used. It is still a valid use and definition, but is not the regular usage, and therein lies your confusion.
We do not pray to the saints as we do to God. One is divine, the others are not. They are however above us as they are already in the presence of God Almighty and purified of sin. (What sin could survive in Heaven?) If, as the Bible states, “The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.” James 5:16, then who, other than God himself, is more righteous than they? If I am going to ask my fellow Christians to pray for me, why would I neglect the most righteous people I could ask….people the Bible says are already praying on our behalf?
You seem to believe that the Catholic Church is not a Bible-believing church. We are….not only that, but we are the one and only Bible-writing church. If we wrote it, don’t you think it’s reasonable to assume that we agree with what’s in there?
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