Dear Mars Hill Church… Concerns About Pastor Mark Driscoll

Dear Mars Hill Church… Concerns About Pastor Mark Driscoll July 11, 2011

Many of us have been frustrated with some of the statements Mark Driscoll has been making lately.  One person who was bold enough to stand up, was my blogger friend: Rachel Held Evans.  Prompted by her post “Mark Driscoll is a Bully” and encouragement to email the church directly with our concerns about Pastor Mark’s poor use of social media, I sent the following email to the church.  You can do so as well (if you plan to write in love and not bitterness, by emailing: ).


Dear Mars Hill Church,

I’ve attended your Ballard campus and was impressed in many ways.  Although I consider myself an Anabaptist Evangelical and not a Reformer, my impression of your ministry was mostly positive.  You folks care about the Bible, Jesus, and human transformation.  You have dynamic ministries caring for the “least of these” in the city and world.  And although I may have some theological “distinctives” (open-handed issues) that differ [which admittedly have some ramifications for ministry and mission], I can see that your church is making a positive impact in many lives.  Many folks have found Jesus Christ through your church and that is something to rejoice about.

However, to my dismay… Pastor Mark continues to create division.  Dividing Christians over issues of gender, personality type, and open-handed issues (to use Pastor Mark’s language).  Not only so, but his actions lead to his followers on the web taking a more dogmatic approach than, if you sat down with Pastor Mark, he would probably embody in his own life practices.  Nevertheless, the rhetoric of arrogance displayed in many of his recent statements on the web is cause for alarm for the larger evangelical community.

One of the biggest issues that I have with what he’s communicated is his approach to manhood.  Yes, men NEED to step up to the plate and be EXCELLENT fathers and models to society about what a man of character ought to look like.  But, just because a guy enjoys the arts more than MMA or football doesn’t make him less of a man or disciple of Christ.  Pastor Mark’s over applied distortion of Wild at Heart is alienating men and causing more harm than good.  I can say this with some authority I suppose, as I was captain of the football team in High School and the only art I’ve got is writing.  In some ways, I make the manhood check list (in many ways, I don’t).

All this is to say that Pastor Mark is inconstant with conservative exegesis having gone well beyond the text on how he communicates manhood.  Alienating statements like this: “So, what story do you have about the most effeminate anatomically male worship leader you’ve ever personally witnessed?”  Is this not judgement?  Is this not perpetuating gossip about a fellow believer?  With over 600 comments, we can be sure that much judgmentalism and many un-Christ-like words were instigated by this one-liner on Facebook.  And, unfortunately… the list goes on.  How can this activity be considered “Christian” in any way?  Show me where Jesus engages in this sort of mockery and perhaps he may have a case.  But no such text exists in Jesus or Paul or anywhere else in the New Testament.

Finally, I want to say that Pastor Mark’s influence is a gift.  My concern is that it is being stewarded poorly and doing great harm to the Christian witness in the world and to the inner-culture of evangelicalism.  May we, “If possible, so far as it depends on [us], live peaceably with all” (Rom 12.18) and may we seek “as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith” (Gal 6.10).  Many of us worry that Pastor Mark is not using his large platform to embody these two basic Christian teachings.

Grace and Peace,

Kurt Willems

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  • msmesrud

    Well said.

  • Thomas Creedy

    Thanks Kurt, thats alot more like it!

    Rare to see genuine criticism matched with real appreciation.

  • I agree. Driscoll is a bully and his comments are quite disheartening. Should this really surprise us? It seems those from the neo-Reformed camp have become more defensive and arrogant and less loving and grace-oriented these days. This was especially evident with the the remarks made about Rob Bell’s book, “Love Wins”. The neo-Reformed crowd along with their fundamentalist cohorts are gradually losing credibility. Time to pray for our brothers and sisters in Christ.

    • I like that you end with prayer. It is really important that we approach this man the opposite way he approached these worship leaders. Otherwise, we are just being hypocritical. Prayer with love and patience is the key. At least this was my conclusion to the whole debacle today on my site

      • Bev Sterk

        how about pray AND fast… fasting is a key way of humbling ourselves, which is one of the Micah 6:8 requirements… also see Ps 35 and Ezra 8 I believe…  I would encourage that for everyone involved, ask the Holy Spirit for His guidance on when and how, etc..  I would encourage all believers to be on a regular pattern of fasting, whatever that might look like for you…  might be screen time, or one meal a week, or one day a month… lots of options

  • When I saw this post on Driscoll’s Facebook, I was disappointed to say the least. I love Driscoll and have gone to bat for him many times among friends and critics. While I don’t see eye-to-eye on everything Driscoll says and does, I love the man and see him as an apostle in our age (among others). Perhaps what we ought to do is pray for the man as much as try write letters. I know I have put my foot in my mouth on more than one occasion. The distinction between him and me is his platform. I, for one, will be praying for him more regularly.

    • First of all great comment… second of all, I love that along with blogger, et al. you are a time traveler!!! That is so cool!

      • HAHA. Just a funny way to express that I am a historian. HAHA. Thanks for the love!

        • I like to hear that… I was a history major and consider myself an armchair historian… or maybe just a fold-out chair historian… peace brother!

  • Well written Kurt.

  • Thank you Kurt! I am one of those men that do not fit the “biblical masculine model” of Mark Driscoll. I am angry and hurt that he would, even in jest, put something like that on his facebook page.

    I love the arts, I love reading, and the theater, and gardening…I do not nor have I ever liked sports, beer, or fixing cars etc..or other manly pursuits. I have ALWAYS felt rejected by peers in school and by many men in the church today.

    I do not think that the western idea of manhood is the biblical idea of manhood, and I think that “Wild At Heart” (which I have read years ago) author John Eldridge has also done a disservice to men who he and pastor Driscoll would view as less than men.

    Sometimes I get tired of “fighting’ fellow believers on how we have failed to love people outside of our comfort zone. I work with many gay and lesbian individuals and they have been hurt deeply by the rhetoric and the hate that believers are famous for. Their hurt and wounds have driven them from the only One that can give to them unconditional love and grace…

    I breaks my heart to see things like Mark Driscoll’s comments further alienate non-believers.

    Today I weep but I am thankful for what you have done.

    Peace brother,
    Mark Lee Schnitzer MS

  • Looks like another case of the Church getting caught up in the poison of the culture wars. I like Pastor Mark (although I am firmly on the other side of Luther), but my reading of the theology of the NT sees gender as passing away in Christ. Even if interpreted in the very early church (heretical?) view that women must become ‘like men’ that manhood is a long way from ‘bloke’ or ‘jock’ culture, Christian or otherwise. The NT ideal is celibate for a start.

    For the record I enjoy Rock&Roll, Early Music, Camping, Beer, Shopping and Poetry. A don’t feel any more or less of a man for doing so.

  • I hope this letter has some effect. But, as I argued in my own post, you might do better to write to John Piper.

  • JL

    Was Driscoll’s recent Facebook post about effeminate worship leaders wrong? Yes. Are his over-the-top, black-and-white viewpoints of masculinity troublesome at times? Yes. However, Pastor Mark is a fallible sinner who is on a path of sanctification just like the rest of us. He’s going to make mistakes, sin, and offend people. We cannot expect our leaders to be sinless. I appreciate Pastor Mark’s ministry and I’ve grown as a Christian listening to many of his sermons.

    There are aspects of my own pastor’s (a prominent Christian leader) ministry and proclivities that I find troublesome and offensive at times. However, I can’t deny the overall positive impact he’s having on people’s lives and for the kingdom of God. I don’t look to my own pastor, Mark Driscoll, or any Christian as having it all figured out. The Christian life is a process of progress and shortcomings and I pray and believe that God will continue to mold and shape these men for his purpose. Thankfully, by the grace of God, my own struggles and sins aren’t so publicly displayed. Many of the pastors we love don’t enjoy such a privilege.

    • To quote the movie spiderman, “with great power comes great responsibility” or something like that… I think that because he speaks publicly it is appropriate to address what he says (with respect and love) publicly… just my opinion.

    • Matteo

      “However, Pastor Mark is a fallible sinner who is on a path of sanctification just like the rest of us. He’s going to make mistakes, sin, and offend people. We cannot expect our leaders to be sinless.”

      But will he see his errors and confess them? Even Billy Graham admitted he made his mistake. Hope we don’t have to wait for another half century before Mark Driscoll realizes his shortcomings.

      I don’t expect my pastor to be perfect, or sinless. What expect is that my pastor doesn’t lead me down the road to perdition due to arrogance and “mistakes”.

  • I would add that I agree the the overall spirit of the criticism, but think it comes down with the precision of a sledgehammer when I think what is need is a scalpel. Driscoll straddles the line between conservative evangelical and fundamentalist, much like the college I attended. The thing is, he seems to be leaning increasingly more to the fundamentalist side of things, which is clearly horrible. Anyway, here’s a post I wrote back in Feb. I think it’s a bit more balanced:

    “Mark Driscoll: Commendations, Concerns, and Criticisms”

  • Jonathan Aigner

    I have been disturbed by much of the bile that has come out of Driscoll’s rant.

    This clip on youtube is a perfect example. Now, I obviously don’t think men should neglect or disrespect or abuse a woman, but this screaming, insulting, unloving and uncaring ranting is completely inappropriate, in my opinion.

    If you want to get through to people, screaming at them is only going to cause their brains to be flooded and they won’t hear a thing you’re saying. It’s not macho. It’s not respectful. It’s not masculine. It’s uneasy and disturbing.

    And you are right to talk about the privilege that he has of being in such a visible position. I cringe at some of these kinds of clips that are now all over the place and how they portray Christianity.

    It needs to stop.

  • Kurt, well said. Mark seems to get bored if he’s not sparing with someone over something. I too appreciate their ministry impact, and wish it didn’t have to come with belittling comments about other believers and ministries. I feel like Christian leaders spend their time comparing themselves and ministries to other Christian leaders, when the world around them spins on. Many seem to have an overinflated view of their impact beyond the church walls. I’m afraid that if many of our churches closed down, most of our neighbors would either be glad we are gone or never notice.

    Here’s my idea: We need more leaders who spend, let’s say, 20%-time in a job or role where their status as pastor doesn’t matter — serving a non-profit, working a real job.

    • Richard Bauly

      Exceptional point in your last few sentences. The grounding of having a pastor work a “real” job for a while where folks do not hang on your every word….is probably healthy and much needed. I am also going to posit that the more successful/large/popular a church has become, the greater the danger that the pastor rationalizes that his own thoughts must somehow mirror what God is thinking. I have watched a recent debate involving a number of very high profile Pastors and without exaggerating I was sickened by the flippancy and arrogance I saw on display. Not humility, as one would expect and hope to see.

  • Well, I won’t argue that Mark Driscoll goes over the line at times. But, regarding that rant from YouTube, he preaches on that like every other week. Seriously. If you go to his church and miss 1) that it’s all about Jesus and 2) this particular aspect of the Christian life, that would be like having (and using) season tickets to the Braves and not knowing what sport they play. So, after years of preaching that time after time and guys not getting it time after time, he’s not perfect. And, he’s willing to be open and honest about his sins as well, which is really hard to find in a pastor.

    Should he be less angry and confrontational? Definitely less angry. But if you’re dealing with Christians and there’s clear Biblical teaching, I’m not sure ‘less confrontational’ is always called for.

  • BigMouth

    On your FAQ, you consider yourself both liberal and conservative.
    What is your stance on homosexual ‘marriage’?

    One can say the Bible and even Jesus as being intolerant when it comes to certain things. Mark Driscoll might not be your favorite cup of tea, but he didn’t personally attack someone in this recent post. You on the other hand, did.

    “Alienating statements like this: “So, what story do you have about the most effeminate anatomically male worship leader you’ve ever personally witnessed?” Is this not judgement? Is this not perpetuating gossip about a fellow believer? ”

    “How can this activity be considered “Christian” in any way? ”

    “With over 600 comments, we can be sure that much judgmentalism and many un-Christ-like words were instigated by this one-liner on Facebook. ”

    Gossip in the Bible (Source: 1. Intent. Gossipers often have the goal of building themselves up by making others look bad and exalting themselves as some kind of repositories of knowledge.

    2. The type of information shared. Gossipers speak of the faults and failings of others, or reveal potentially embarrassing or shameful details regarding the lives of others without their knowledge or approval. Even if they mean no harm, it is still gossip.

    In the book of Romans, Paul reveals the sinful nature and lawlessness of mankind, stating how God poured out His wrath on those who rejected His laws. Because they had turned away from God’s instruction and guidance, He gave them over to their sinful natures. The list of sins includes gossips and slanderers (Romans 1:29b-32). We see from this passage how serious the sin of gossip is and that it characterizes those who are under God’s wrath.

    • Driscoll definitely crosses the line frequently. Some of that is his audience, but he’s large enough now popularity-wise that he needs to be wise and address a wider audience and avoid alienating the other audiences who now are affected by his message due to his popularity. As for Kurt, I think you’re really stretching it to argue that this post is gossip. The intent of this is to call Driscoll to repentance, not slander him. And saying that stuff you post on Twitter, Facebook, podcasted sermons, etc, qualifies as private things that can’t be revealed without your knowledge or approval is frankly ridiculous.

      Do I like Mark Driscoll’s teaching? Definitely. Do I agree with his stance on manhood and womanhood? Close to 90% of it. Does he always present in a Christ-like manner? No, not even close. And for that, he does need to repent. Kurt is just one (of many from this particular group of Christianity) who is calling a brother to repentance. It’s done out of love, it was done via a discrete email to the church as well as this post per Kurt’s Facebook comments) and it certainly wasn’t any more sinful than when Driscoll crosses the line.

      • Driscoll’s “audience”?

        That sums up the problem right there.

        • BigMouth

          Driscoll’s audience? First off, that’s implying his audience (your term) is not part of the church. That pretty intolerant and ignorant statement for such a ‘tolerant’ guy. I can call you a guy still, or does that offend you?

          The church and society as a whole is too effeminate. (There are many facts that prove this)

          You sum up the problem as Mark Driscoll and anyone who defends his right to say things, even it it might offend someone. Tolerance? Mark Driscoll is not the enemy of the church. I can give you a list of things to focus on that are trying to destroy the church.
          BTW, I’m in the audience (your terminology) for our Lord, not for man… Have a nice day.

  • joshmiller


    Grace received is different than grace extended. Also, just because you add peace at the bottom of something does not mean that it’s peaceful. That to me is wonderful cover-up to what you are actually intending on doing. The Bible has plenty to say about manipulation. 🙂

    • Then how would you respond to someone bullying? I thought that kurt’s response was very appropriate. Maybe, I am reading your comment wrong… but are you saying that what kurt is doing is manipulation?

  • Luke Thomas

    Kurt I have to defend some of these issues.
    I feel like the church in general has been feminized, whether it was in the pass the liberal theological view of a feminine Jesus or the difference between men and women or American psychology dealing with us the same; I think are church has been feminized. I know Driscoll would have a much different emphasis on the person of Christ. He would emphasize that He was a man, that he will destroy many at the battle of Armegedon, that he walked around with 12 guys and fished, and cared for the poor, and loved sinners, and called pharisees to the carpet. Jesus was a much more manly man than I feel like got presented to us in a church service. That said at times he takes it too far. I do not think that men who stay with the kids should be under church discipline.

    So a few questions:
    Do you think the normal Christian’s view of Jesus tends to fall on the feminized side or manly?

    I felt that you said he was inconsistent with his exegesis. I don’t think you demonstrate this in your letter. That said if we are going to call out someone’s exegesis could you give an example?

    His humor is rough. As was the twitter question. Most of his readers/listeners know he’s joking. What is the role of humor in preaching/blogging/ kingdom ministry. Certainly Jesus who put mud in eyes, logs in eyes, spat, and did other humorous things sets some foundation. If he just joking, what constitutes a judgmental joke vs a non judgmental joke. Is it the hurt of the offended?

    • Humor at the expense of a person’s dignity is not humor at all. Jesus did not demoralize other people to get a chuckle or two from His audience. With homophobia and anti-marriage equality running high in the church, I do not think his “rough humor” helped anyone.
      It was not a joke to me…and as a pastor he should understand that his words have weight and influence.
      In other words it is ok to ridicule an “effeminate” guy because the pastor does it? Is it ok to call them names too? Is it ok to push them around? I guess it must be because we can make fun of them.
      Sometimes I am ashamed to be called a Christian.

      • Luke Thomas

        I am not necessarily comfortable with his joking. However, I am going to defend him on this. In the opening of his book “radical reformission” he begins by explaining his outreach to homosexual community through planning a gay rodeo. He engages the discussion with all of his “robust” joking. At the end of the day, it is nature of how far is joke. I do not think he is intentionally pushing anyone around, but some will take him as not appropriate. What is an inappropriate or course joking as Paul talks about and what is just us ribbing.

        But then again you would probably be offended if you saw Jesus spitting in the eyes of blind guy.

        • Tell that to the multitude of children and teens that have to endure “joking” by their peers in school. I think the other word for it is “bullying”.

          Tell that to the mulitude of children and teens that have no self worth, or self confidence. Who are fearful to go to school everyday of their lives and who feel sick to their stomach every morning as they walk or take the bus to school. Tell that to them as they are harrassed and beat up, dying a little more each day on the inside.

          Tell that to the families that have lost their teens and young adults to suicide as a result of “joking”. Tell that to the weeping father’s and mother’s as they stand in front of the casket of their 13, 14,15 year old son or daughter, “Hey, it was just “ribbing” after all!”

          Our children and our teens learn from our actions, attitudes, and words. If is is ok for the pastor to call someone a faggot, then I guess it is alright for me to do it too.

          Words have the power to create or destroy…a man or woman claiming to speak for God should be using his words to create.

          Humor at the expense of another person created in the image of God is NEVER proper.

          • Luke Thomas

            Did he call anyone a faggot? ( I know in the past he got in trouble for using the word gay inappropriately) Words do have the power to destroy, they also have the power to poke fun at something. The offense over this is melodramatic. If Driscoll has continued his friendship with his homosexual friends, I imagine that he is still reaching to. They know and understand his personality.
            However to compare him to a group of teens or other people who needlessly pick on a kid over and over again till he is hurting seems to be taking it way to far. I am sorry if this some how rubs on some past hurts, but there seriously is a difference to what Driscoll did and needlessly bullying a kid. I am merely asking are we looking at his whole body of work.

          • I am talking here about words…his words give other people permission to take his “joke” to the next level. His words give permission to hate. His words give credence to the bully and the hater.

            Not everyone knows his personality, or his style, or his humor, so not everyone will put it in context (not that it makes it right anyway). All his “joke” does is feed misunderstanding and hate.

            “Speech has power. Words do not fade. What starts out as a sound, ends in a deed.”
            Rabbi Abraham Heschel

          • To add the qualification “anatomically” to male is to imply that man is only a man in anatomy.

            If you don’t understand what this word usage does, you probably won’t understand why Driscoll is a bully.

        • Sorry. This is quite humorous. Really. Mark Driscoll wanted to reach out to the Gay community by planning a rodeo? The Gay community does not need Mark Driscoll’s help to put on a rodeo.

          I wonder if Driscoll has ever heard of this organization:

          This organization had a backstage role in the making of Brokeback Mountain.

          (Many of the “straight” cowboys you see in Brokeback Mountain were recruited through the Alberta Rockies Gay Rodeo Association because it was difficult to find cowboys willing to be in the movie. And, that movie needed a large number of cowboys, on and off screen. The joke is that the two “gay” cowboys are straight, and the straight cowboys were gay.)

          I wonder if Mark Driscoll has noticed the professions seen in the Village People? Not an effeminate man in the group.

          • Luke Thomas

            My basic point is this, he has interacted with homosexuals and has loved them. When I read the chapter in his book, I thought it was crazy and appreciated his missional approach. However, that does not mean he has to stop joking. I think if we knew Mark Driscoll we would kind of roll our eyes and say yeah I know he said that… but He loves those people.

            By the way about died laughing at the post originally thanks for the humor.

    • Luke, I don’t have tons of time right now to comment. I wonder though… did you read Rachel Held Evans’ post that prompted this one? She documents a list of frustrations… to be honest, there’s plenty more that are not listed.

      • Luke Thomas

        I did. Most her frustrations (not all) were centered on his references to woman which have frustrated others. His point in referencing women in sexually explicit terms is to encourage enjoyment of sex. There is a real difference between the complimentary view and the egalitarian view. As Driscoll explains his complimentary view with a encouragement to enjoy sex. His quick tongue and sense of humor get in trouble, but his humor and different theological view should not be viewed as unloving. It is Driscoll using humor and shock value. That said none of these issues deserve the reaction in my opinion.

      • Luke Thomas

        Out of all of the questions I would like to know your answer to the appropriate joke vs inappropriate. What is the appropriate use of language? I think at a base level this is his big sin. Would you be mad at Jesus for spitting in the blind guys eyes. How about Gal. 5:12? Does being “real” in our humor and persona have it’s own form of love?

    • With the woman at the well, Jesus treated her as equal to a man.

      With Mary and Martha, Jesus allowed a woman to participate as a man.

      With the first European church, Paul used a woman as a primary point of contact.

      This comes from a culture that didn’t necessarily count or name female offspring when writing the Bible. (Adam and Eve had to have a daughter, right?)

      In 2011, it is hard to recognize immediately how much of a radical feminist Jesus was in the first century (and is today) because we don’t have the 1st century context when we read scripture.

      • Luke Thomas

        As a complimentarian I believe the Bible celebrates male and female differences. That said, I think Jesus valued women as in the image of God often and women play a significant and intimate roll with God in the Bible. I think we would disagree on that. Not that big of a deal to me. I don’t see my position holding back my wife or other women.

  • Stittler

    God Bless Kurt,

    I was so discouraged to hear him discuss what he thought manhood consisted of. The mark of a real man is not accumulating wealth, sport team worship, or planning with toys. A real man can escape from the traps of this world to spend a few hours a week with his family thinking musing on God on others.

    But not according to Driscoll:

    I would sooner labelled effeminate than cruel. May be more young people who struggle with their sexuality would have shared their struggle with the Church and not the world if the Church wasn’t full to the brim with Driscoll and his type.

    But he’s a calvinist. What can you expect from a pig but a grunt?

    • KenP

      Perhaps your last line would have been better if it had been left out?

  • Ian

    Well some of the name calling and general dislike with Driscoll I think is could have been avoided. I do think that Driscoll is either wrong when it comes to masculinity, or ,like I suspect, just failing to communicate what he sees as the “feminizing” of the church, which I agree is a real thing that is happening. The church is becoming more populated by women (I’ve heard 60% thrown around) and I tend to wonder if it’s the Church that’s been the cause. Is it the “lovey dovey” music? Or the emphasis on “intimate relationship”? Or anything can be seen as “girly”? I can’t deny that is may have some effect. So should we add football ,rock-n-roll ,and chest-pounding the our services then? No. The problem seems to be that our culture has a flawed view of what is truly masculine. It’s no longer about being a honest, faithful, humble, hard-working, loving person with integrity, but just about what we like.  Men in america today often fail to grow out of boyhood in the first place. They are more often lazy and wait to be given things before they will take action and do anything for themselves, much less others. They tend to be some of the most selfish people I know. Here’s a story that may drive the point home.

    My church youth group is having a “summer internship” this summer for youth that want to spend some of their new found spare time on serving others in the community. The attendance is pretty good, but this little fact has been bugging the crap out of me the whole time. There are 23 girls and 7 guys including myself! We’re in Kansas City and we went to Joplin this past monday and all the girls went and 5 of the guys! There is just a stunning lack of will to serve in the younger generation nowadays.

    Seems to be that being a “tough guy” isn’t the only thing that constitutes manhood. I’m sure that Driscoll would agree with that.

    • Bev Sterk

      hmmm… guys, there is spiritual warfare being specifically aimed at you… it’s not
      something i’ve seen discussed b4, but i’ve been wondering if there is a specific attack on taking guys out of the spiritual battle, making them ineffective spiritually…via redirecting God time to screen time – ie video games, computer stuff,  tv shows, whatever it might be – why is it that 25% of boys are addicted to video games but it’s far less for girls?   or giving higher praise to a sports team than to God in church – my dream is that we cheer louder in church when God “scores” ie baptism, testimony, etc. than we do when our team wins the super bowl, do we know more about a team or player or a car than we do about the His Word, His people, Israel, things that are dear to His heart?   hope that makes sense in such a short post… 

       let’s go after the real enemy on this… and it’s not Mark Driscoll…  as one person mentioned, move in the opposite spirit… love, prayer, humility, unity, powerful praise… you take out the enemy in unbelievable ways when you walk in His Spirit… God, help make it happen Your way, help us to see with our spiritual eyes what is going on,  in Your Son’s Precious Name… Yeshua

  • Thought this was an excellent post. Read it a couple of days ago and then came across this today:
    Perhaps it’s not a perfect response but I’m grateful to see the elders at Mars Hill getting involved and moving such discussion to an appropriate venue and in an appropriate way. 
    Between your blog post Kurt, and then this (seeming) response, I was encouraged. Thanks.



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