It’s Official: We Are The United Methodist Church That Hates Gays

It’s Official: We Are The United Methodist Church That Hates Gays February 27, 2019

So, let’s pick up our crosses and do exactly that. Let’s be the church reborn. What we won’t be known as: “The United Methodist Church that hates gays.” The WCA, Good News and the African Methodists own that nomenclature.  


We are now "The United Methodist Church that hates gays"


Check the front page of the nation’s major newspapers today: it will be splashed there. The New York Times headline is typical: United Methodists Tighten Ban on Same-Sex Marriage and Gay Clergy.

After reading a few of the comments which showed the derision of the public for anything religious, and knowing this only made people surer in their skepticism, I added this comment to the queue:

I am a retired United Methodist Clergy and was at the conference as part of the press to describe what I saw. This was a hostile takeover, very similar to the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist Church in the late 1980s. Many fine and decent people are being badly hurt because of a raw power grab on the part of a minority of US pastors who put the African delegates in their well-funded pockets. There is massive grief today and yes, the church will split. But real traditional Methodism is imbued with gracious love and hospitality and that movement will rise again.

Not that it will do any real good. The damage is real and probably permanent. The name “Methodist” will be now forever linked with bigotry, intolerance, and rampant, inexcusable ignorance about human sexuality and the nature of the biblical witness.

And lest you think that the WCA will do as they have threatened for some time: to pick up their marbles and leave the playground, read this perspective  and predictions from United Methodist layman Cody McMahan:

The WCA will not bail – they made it expensive to bail as their last legislative act. The $ will not change. Eith the decline of US churches and the growth of Central Conferences this was the last chance. They will have more control in 2020 and will make it absolute. Prepare to have your pastors forced to sign oaths against LGBTQ inclusion. Prepare to see whole ministries of the UMC shuttered. The UMC will become a fundamentalist denomination.

Many of you seem to think this is really only about us queer folk. It’s not. It’s about power. When the same people did the same thing to the Baptists it was women. It’s about fundamentalism and patriarchy and control. It’s about unexamined faith that can be manipulated to elect monsters. It’s about Dominionism and remaking the good old days that never were.

So, thanks, WCA. Thanks, Africans, firmly in the pocket of the IRD-linked Good News folks. Well, it’s yours now. The name, the insignia, and probably several billion dollars of property as many churches, which will see a mass exodus of parishioners from this pronouncement, will not be able to pay the fees necessary to leave with it.

You guys won. And you are indelibly stained by your victory.

For me . . . well, the portions of the US church that has freed itself from that kind of hatred and bigotry will get to reinvent ourselves. The name is going to be a big issue. With the word “Methodist” now more of a pejorative than it ever was in John Wesley’s name, there will have to be a massive renaming and rebranding. That will be hard. But I know that I am now, for the very first time, ashamed to be an ordained clergy in The United Methodist Church.

We’re going to have to rebuild the remnants from the ground up. We will be somewhat less than half the size we are now. Nothing wrong with that. Downsizing is a legitimate option.

This will also give the opportunity to create a pared down, flexible Discipline, freed from the restrictions in our current one that has long made substantive changes nearly impossible. We’ll need a more modern understanding of how itinerancy works in a world of working spouses and a need to keep clergy much longer in local churches. We will create a lighter and more flexible infrastructure,  so we can be culturally adaptive in our proclamation of the Gospel.

We will also find freedom from carrying the burden of supporting the African church. It fascinates me how thoroughly, in their apparent lock-step voting with the gay-hating Southern-Baptists-in-United-Methodist clothing, the “only-our-interpretation-of-the-bible” African church shot itself in the foot. Once the split fully takes place, they will be 98% dependent on the WCA for their funding.

My prediction? After a couple of years of this, the WCA “United Methodists” will tell the African church folk to take a hike. Just too much money being funneled out of their well-padded pockets. After all, they’ll no longer need or want your votes as those votes will dilute the white, hetero, male power base.

And no, African “methodists,” you can’t come into the re-formed church that will spring from the ashes of this firestorm.

No more of your dictating to us how we may do ministry. No more of you having the freedom to contextualize as necessary but denying that to the church that supports you. No more. I’m sure you are fine, fine people, but your shortsightedness has hurt you badly.

This will be a tough, unstable time during the rebuild. We’ll have far more questions than answers. But I’m reminded of a phrase in that great Thomas Cahill book, How the Irish Saved Civilization:

There is no such thing as stability. The mainline church, with it’s middle class mentality, may have sold a bill of goods to its parishioners.

Time for not just radical hospitality but also radical honesty: the church is not a safe place to be. That doesn’t mean it is not good. It is indeed good. But it is not safe, not if she will follow Jesus.

So, let’s pick up our crosses and do exactly that. Let’s be the church reborn. What we won’t be known as: “The United Methodist Church that hates gays.” The WCA, Good News and the African Methodists own that nomenclature.


Photo Credit: (c) Christy Thomas

"Can't say as I blame you. He's an agent of the one who opposes Jesus."

It’s Official: We Are The United ..."
"Have fun. I can't stand him anymore, tbh..."

It’s Official: We Are The United ..."
"He ignores everything but his own misguided biases. I can barely wait to see the ..."

It’s Official: We Are The United ..."
"He ignores biblical polygamy...Don't waste your time on this guy..."

It’s Official: We Are The United ..."

Browse Our Archives

Follow Us!


TRENDING AT PATHEOS Progressive Christian
What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • Nearly all of the United Methodists I’ve known or dialogged with in 55 years have been moderate to very liberal in their various interpretations of Christianity. So I was shocked to hear the news.

    You say that the current change in the UM is similar to the take-over by fundamentalists in the Southern Baptist Convention. It does appear to be so from my perspective as an outsider. Eight years ago before I formally left Christianity, even though I don’t think infant baptism is true, I again attended two United Methodist churches here hoping to find good news. Sadly, at that time I encountered a UM theologian married to a UM minister who claimed that determinism is true:-( He was a Calvinistic Methodist.

    I have two questions if you don’t mind answering them:
    #1 Is part of this movement by a majority of Methodists against same sexual marriage based in a Methodist form of Calvinism as the Southern Baptist take)over was?

    #2 On the other hand, do you think that some of those voting for the Traditional Plan aren’t against same sexual people themselves, but rather against some wrong actions associated with same sexuality?

    The reason I am asking the second question is that while some people strongly support gay individuals, they oppose leaders who support promiscuity, polyamory, etc.

    • Randy Burbank

      It is not Calvinism. Our support of the Traditional Plan is based on the Bible’s definition of marriage, a definition God established before The Fall. We believe, that in spite of some in the past who misused the Bible (for their own gain), it is still reliable when we read it IN CONTEXT, and that this Bible is given to us to transform us–and NOT to be used as a way to prove our points of view.

      • Ah, yes, biblical marriage… I’ve read the bible, mate. Even the boring parts that most Christians skip.

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b32613b86c70fa3b565c86819257d7380f47710ecd9814fefa8d9427fa21bddb.jpg

      • tyler

        an unnuanced, contextless, first-grade interpretation of a single bible passage, with zero support from the other three sides of the quadrilateral? smells like another fake methodist peddling biblical literalism to me. go back to the SBC

      • Dawn Chesser

        If it was about biblical marriage why didn’t the amendments regarding divorced, polygamous and remarried pastors pass? There’s certainly a whole lot more about those sinful states in the bible than there is about homosexuality.

      • However, remember that half of all Methodists in North America read biblical passages IN CONTEXT and, thus supported slavery. Are you familiar with the 19th century split over slavery and the supporting biblical passages that southern Methodists believed in?

        I taught American literature for many years and have extensive knowledge of the various denominations which strongly defended slavery based upon the Bible.

        I am a former Baptist minister and church leader but greatly admire John Wesley. Consider that the Southern Baptist Convention claims that women can’t be lead pastors because they read IN CONTEXT what the Bible says about women. YET
        United Methodists have had women ministers for a long time.
        How does that figure?

        I’ve read many of John Wesley’s sermons, read his journal, a biography, histories, etc. Even John Wesley let a few women lead despite the clear teaching of Scripture.

        The Bible has many definitions of marriage, many of them contradictory.

        The passage from Genesis and Jesus’ own words as recorded in the gospels do seem focus on marriage only for men and women. The question is whether or not those words are limiting or can become inclusive when new knowledge is learned.
        The acceptance and support of slavery for hundreds of years because of the Bible passages didn’t stop abolitionists from reading those passages in new light.

        Side Note: Also, ought it not be looked at closely that the UM (like so many other denominations of Christianity) are focusing solely on one particular ethical question but avoiding others?
        How many of the delegates who voted for the Traditional Plan, speaking against same sexuality, also spoke up against injustice and the forcible separation of toddlers from their refugee mothers by the U.S. Government?
        The Bible has a lot to state about injustice and the harm of the innocent, too.

      • Zeigler John

        It is a grave danger to fall into the trap of bibliolotry–worshiping the book instead of the God who inspired it. The bible pulls no punches because it includes stories of people who made bad decisions and did bad things, and yet God out of great love and grace set aside those sins in Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection so that we might all live. Just because something appears in the bible does not put God’s stamp of approval on it. Jesus is the incarnate word who bears God’s eternal stamp of approval–listen to him. He does not turn people away. Open the doors and let everyone in, and trust in God alone to be able to complete God’s good intention for each one of us sinners.

        • blogcom

          Well there’re not exactly bolts on the doors so only you know what you’re alluding to.
          Or maybe we do…….

  • douglas fur

    Regarding assets reverting to the church. A UMC church near my ELCA church went out of business. They cashed out their assets, cash equipment and property, and donated the procedes to various causes before they disbanded. We gained a score of folding chairs and a couple of large soup pots plus a handful of stalwart members.
    Is this still an option?

  • Jon Markle

    Now, having been reared in the Southern Baptist tradition, knowing full well how secretively manipulative that Convention can be, I urge that the “liberal”, more inclusive arm of UMC unite quickly and exit even more quickly, taking with it whatever tangible properties it can. But, swift and decisive is key.

  • Rudy Schellekens

    “The name “Methodist” will be now forever linked with bigotry, intolerance, and rampant, inexcusable ignorance about human sexuality and the nature of the biblical witness”
    Interesting perspective. 53% of the members present voted for this continuation of the CURRENT belief, as stated in the Discipline. Many, many people will consider that a holding to Biblical teaching.
    And remember: It is not a statement of hate. It’s a statement against a serious attack on the theology of the church.
    Now, if you go from the idea that congregations are autonomous, this should not make any difference. You go to the church that has the theological flavor you prefer.

  • Randy Burbank

    The only hate being expressed, my brother in Christ, is by you and your fellow progressives. And for you to say that the WCA will kick out our African sisters and brothers? FYI, they are the ones who are inspiring us and giving us hope. We walk side by side and hand in hand with them. Your comment is full of prejudice, and the last time I checked, prejudice is a sin, too. Here’s my response to you personally: Sometimes it is best to keep your thoughts to yourself and people only think you are an idiot, than to express those thoughts and remove all doubts.

    • Dawn Chesser

      Rev. Christy Thomas is your sister in Christ, not your brother in Christ. Maybe you should follow your own advice about keeping your thoughts to yourself, as you’ve certainly removed all doubts people might be having about you. Just sayin.

    • Yeah, Jesus hated that whole “inclusion” thing.

      • blogcom

        You must have missed that part about imposters that Jesus wasn’t wild about- no doubt arising out of that ‘inclusion’ thing.

        • What imposters? Jesus was the one who changed the message as one to the Chosen People alone to everyone. Jesus was Mr. Inclusive.

          • blogcom

            Sorry Bob you have it wrong- there’s no inclusivity for inclusivity’s sake-
            theology matters- but it shouldn’t to you as an atheist because you have no skin in the game.

            And yes Jesus warned about Christian imposters.

          • vivien

            Matthew 7:15

          • Rom. 5:18-19 talks about the symmetry between Adam’s sin and Jesus’s saving act. We didn’t opt in to get tarred with Adam’s brush, and so we don’t opt in to get Jesus’s redemption.

            So we’re in the same boat.

          • blogcom

            Yes but its not an automatic covering, while open to ‘whosoever’ its basic requirements are belief and commitment.

          • Sure sounds automatic to me.

            just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

            See you in heaven.

          • blogcom

            Very astute Bob- but its still dependent on whosoever accepts the contract.

          • You’re shoehorning the Bible into your preferred mold. Christians should let the Bible speak for itself, right?

        • TS (unami)

          They are not “imposters” but your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ!

          • blogcom

            Well the Founder of the Church disagrees

          • TS (unami)

            He told me you’re wrong.

          • blogcom

            His words are recorded for posterity while yours aren’t.

          • TS (unami)

            You weren’t there. You snooze, you lose.

          • blogcom

            Lol

          • TS (unami)

            🙂

    • JD

      You’ll just kick the lgbtiq from your churches. How is that ‘inspiring’?

  • Shake the dust off your feet, Pastor, then move on to the next village.

    Folks deserve better than a church that demonizes them and ostracizes them.

    If they want to claim that a Bronze Age document that allowed for ownership of women, plural wives, the rape of female captives, and forcing women to marry their rape victims is a good place to get their sexual ethics from, there ain’t much you can do to convince them otherwise.

    As always, it’s about power, not love.

    • Linda Coleman Allen

      So sad, but oh so true. It is an organization after all.

    • D.M.S.

      You are a complete and total imbecile.
      You haven’t the faintest idea on how to interpret scripture.

      • HAHAHAHAHA…

        Right…

        Scripture is so clear… that’s why you all have 50,000 denominations and many more books on how to interpret scripture that contradict one another.

        You are precious.

        • D.M.S.

          Liar…..their are les than 400 Protestant chapters in the world that believe in Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior and His doctrine.
          All you believe in is the hype of the progressive media and their utter ‘ LIES ‘.

          • Oh Sweetie, really? No True Scotsman? Sad.

          • D.M.S.

            Go ahead believe the ‘ LIES ‘.
            I won’t.
            No true scotsman is manure.

  • Reese

    Christy, will you please stop with all the “hate” accusations. Failure to agree is not hate and you know it. Listen, the “United” is now going to be the “untied” – just like the Presbyterians did and the Lutherans did. They survived, more or less, and everybody is surely happier for the split. We can become Methodist Church – Traditional Synod and the Methodist Church – Whatever Synod, have a friendly asset divide and move on to worship happily ever after. No hate at all, just two sets of Methodists, each with their own set of values. C’mon now, try to use your influence for peaceful purposes. Keep the poor Episcopalians in mind – they allowed one side to take the whole deal and they’ve lost 1,000 churches since. We can avoid that.

    • I’m a casualty of that Presbyterian split. And what you casually dismiss as a “failure to agree” was an actual display of hate for those of us who were there. I heard people I love literally called abominations. Did we all survive? Sure. But I’m surely not happier for the experience.

      • Alan

        I’ll bet they used the word “abomination” in love though :-^.

      • Reese

        Aren’t you happier now that you do not have to endure that constant battle? You should be. Put that battle behind you. Each side went their own way, and now your side should have no debate. To me, that is improvement over constant battles…

        • Let me quote from my post, which you apparently did not bother to read in full: “But I am surely not happier for the experience.”

          No. I am not happier. I spent 36 years in that church, and saw venomous hatred unmasked. If that’s your “improvement,” then your baseline is seriously skewed, and you can have it.

          • Reese

            Most people are happier AFTER they leave an abusive or upsetting relationship. I assumed that after the split, you were no longer in one of those and wrongly assumed you would be happier.

    • Undercover antifa supersoldier

      “Failure to agree is not hate”

      It is when the thing being disagreed about is whether people like me deserve to be treated equally

    • TS (unami)

      New Episcopalian here. We haven’t seen anything but positive growth in our parish. I’m sure that any former Methodists would be welcome; I was welcomed and warmly received at Christ’s Table after I was ostracized from the Orthodox Church when I came out.

      • Reese

        Well, good for you and your parish. If you google the demise of the Episcopal Church, you will find that over 1,000 parishes have closed since the cancer of liberalism metastasized with the lesbian bishop ordination. It is on google. The NYC headquarters have been sold or are still up for sale. Your parish must be in a very liberal area. In my little conservative town, the local Episcopal church is down to about 40 worshipers each Sunday over two services, high and low. They are without a priest again – they can’t pay enough for a family to live on. So, good for you and yours. BTW, I know of no refusal of homosexuals at a UMC communion, or in a pew, or a class. Those like me will not accept a homosexual as our spiritual leader or allow a homosexual wedding in our church. But, we welcome all sinners to our pews and communions. They even let me show up!

        • TS (unami)

          Yeah, that scenario sounds really welcoming… Thanks, but no thanks.

        • vivien

          Our local UMC only has about 40 worshipers as well, even before this ruling, I love this little church and the people in it (even the feminist woman pastor, lol) but it hurts me to see how their numbers keep dwindling. Meanwhile, nondenominational churches like mine are so big the police have to direct traffic. Young families want a church that teaches the truth! They don’t want watered-down homilies.

  • Here’s a naive question from a non-Methodist: assuming the liberal churches separate to create their own denomination (or is that a bad assumption?) isn’t it good to have the conservatives separate themselves so that you can now create rules that make sense for you?

    • tyler

      yes and no. plenty of methodists, of course, are going to be (understandably) broken up about it just on a sentimental level. the main thing to remember about an organization made up of humans is that it’s made of humans, so any split is going to be painful even if everything else goes smoothly.

      more to the point though, the UMC’s structure is specifically designed to make splitting ridiculously complicated and painful. the UMC as a whole owns all the churches, so a congregation leaving the UMC usually means being out a building. they also control pensions, which was a huge topic of discussion at the conference. oh, and they control where and when pastors move around. this is only the tip of the iceberg; needless to say, some 40% of the denomination up and leaving, even if they were wholly united, is going to be a legal and financial headache for years to come.

      oh yeah also the same people that voted on hating the gays also voted to make the process of splitting even more difficult, so, there’s that too.

      • Helpful, thanks.

      • PoinSpirit

        Leaving was made easier….they included a ‘gracious exit plan’ for those who want to leave.

    • Chuck Johnson

      Non-Methodist ?
      That’s an understatement.

  • DeanF

    Wow. This piece is filled with more venemous hatred than I’ve heard from any others. Maybe you should have allowed yourself to cool off first?

    The delegates met in a time of Holy Conferencing as requested in 2016 and as we have done for the past 200+ years. The Connection was there. Everyone was given voice and vote. Our Conference worked as it was supposed to.

    Your baseless allegations of bribery against the African delegation is absurd. By your logic (or lack thereof) you would be considered s racist for not supporting them.

  • Alan

    I must admit that I don’t remember all that much about Wesley, it having been many years since I last read his journal(s), but this vote to me seems right in keeping with his attitudes and beliefs. If he were here now, surely he wouldn’t be supporting gay marriage. Of course, I don’t believe he would support divorced clergy or any of the many other things that are seen as acceptable. But perhaps we shouldn’t long that much for good ol’ Methodism.

  • The tide has already turned for good over marriage equality in both broader society and among American Christians. While the UMC’s vote is troubling, its legacy is likely to prove mixed. In the end, love wins.

  • vivien

    There will not be a mass exodus, in fact, many who left the UMC (myself included) might now consider coming back! I was a methodist all my life until I realized the church cared more about what the “world” thought than what the Bible says. At the time, they were pro-choice and belonged to an organization for “religious abortion rights”. They have since dropped their membership in that organization, deeming it to be “too extreme”. Looks like the UMC is heading in the right direction, and I couldn’t be more pleased.

    • Kate Johnson

      How old are you? Over 60? Watch a lot of Fox News? Looks like the UMC is just the place for you, but you shouldn’t think that there will ever be a younger generation behind you to fill those pews as you all die off. The younger generation doesn’t tolerate this kind of bigotry. I don’t know anyone under 30 that cares if anyone is gay. UMC was already a demographically old denomination, this decision just expedited it’s extinction. Probably for the best.

      • Chuck Johnson

        Things they do look awful cold.
        I hope I die before I get old.
        I’m talking about my generation.

      • vivien

        No, I don’t watch Fox News, I prefer BBC. The church I go to is large and growing, multicultural, has a thriving youth ministry, and it doesn’t allow gay marriages, gay pastors or even women pastors. My teenagers don’t care if anyone is gay, you are correct! They don’t care one way or the other! It’s not a deal breaker for them. But wishy-washy Bible teaching would be.

        • Your church doesn’t allow women ministers!? Then it probably isn’t Methodist is it?

          Just curious if you don’t asking; is your church SBC or Calvinist mega?

          • vivien

            it’s nondenominational

          • Thanks for responding.

        • Kate Johnson

          Any remarried divorce people in your church? You know, according to the literal interpretation of the scripture, remarriage after divorce is almost always adultery. There’s a only very narrow justification in scripture, and the vast majority of divorced people do not qualify for remarriage. All those remarried divorced people, who are unqualified for remarriage, must either return to their original spouse, or live celibate. Otherwise they are habitual adulterers. If we’re going observe the letter of the law, then we must at least be consistent. The Bible also says women should be forced to marry their rapist. You for that as well?

          • vivien

            Well that’s just the point of Christianity, NOBODY can observe the letter of the law, that’s why Jesus died on the cross. As a sacrifice for our sins. We can try to live exemplary lives, but circumstances happen. That doesn’t mean the church has to throw up their hands and say “there’s nothing wrong with divorce anymore”. There’s still something wrong with it.

          • Kate Johnson

            It’s interesting how you’re so ready to compromise the very words of Christ himself, when it suits your purposes. He said, “God HATES divorce.” That anyone who divorces and remarries except for lack of chastity (meaning the woman wasn’t a virgin, which would have to be declared from the beginning) constitutes adultery. Every single sexual encounter between unlawfully remarried people is an individual act of adultery. Even in the most liberal literal interpretation of this scripture, there would have to have been adultery in the marriage, and then, it’s only the spouse who was cheated on that’s free to remarry, the cheating spouse is not. You are a picker and chooser just like everybody else. Gays offend you, you don’t understand them, so no wiggle room there, but for the divorced people you can relate to, lots of grace. This is why people are leaving the church in droves. They look at people like you and say, “well I sure don’t want to be like that!” You may have a plentiful youth group, but let’s see how many hang around after they have some experience in the real world. They rarely return after college.

          • vivien

            Nope, you are wrong, gays do not offend me, I just don’t think the church should be enabling that kind of behavior. Divorcees don’t offend me either, but I still think it’s wrong to get a divorce! Love the sinner, hate the sin. It’s a cliche, but it’s true. We ALL sin in some way, shape or form. Doesn’t mean the church should say “well, let’s take a vote on whether we’re going to consider this a sin anymore”. And believe me, I know how kids are brainwashed by liberal college teachers, that’s why I hope my kids will choose private Christian colleges (they will if they want me to help pay for it, lol)

          • Kate Johnson

            You better hope they do or they will find out how much of what they’ve been taught isn’t true.

          • vivien

            LOL

          • JD

            Iows gays are subhuman and are not allowed to have the same privileges as you.

          • ron

            What conservatives fear as brainwashing is…saying “lets think.” ….you preferences are a VERY severe repressive church…so long as YOUR interpretation gets to be right…sad so very sad

          • D.M.S.

            There’s a really good Christian college in Pennsylvania.

          • vivien

            Gordon? I’ve heard good things about it.

          • TS (unami)

            Bubble.

          • D.M.S.

            Does God/Jesus find it good to be lgbtq?
            And why?

          • ron

            Sad, very narrow interpretation of the everything…and yes i use the term interpretation, as it is all based on generations of interpretations of the words, the grammar, punctuation, language….and the culture of the time….
            ,

          • blogcom

            Are you an atheist? if not It would be surprising as you use the same irrelevant arguments.

          • TS (unami)

            They aren’t irrelevant. Why don’t you try answering them?

          • D.M.S.

            No, she a lesbian gay Christian.
            Gay Christians don’t exist in the Bible.
            But she won’t believe that to be true.
            Even though GOD/JESUS condemns homosexual sex and homosexual marriage.

          • D.M.S.

            Women should be forced to marry their rapist in the Old Testament only, under Jewish law.
            Do you even have a clue why?
            Have you ever looked up why they had to marry their rapist?
            I doubt that you ever have.
            If you had looked up why they had to marry their rapist, you wouldn’t look as dum as you are right now.

        • JD

          Got to get them young and indoctrinate the hate into to them early, yes?

          • blogcom

            Love the word hate don’t you- you sound like you have a problem.

          • JD

            I’ve a problem with bigotry driven by religious ignorance.

          • D.M.S.

            Yes, JD does have a very large problem she
            ‘ HATES GOD/JESUS.

        • D.M.S.

          Amen….

      • blogcom

        While you might not realize it yet the end of Orthodoxy means the end of the Church.
        All you’ll be left with is a humanist secular organization calling itself Christian, using scripture but built entirely on identity politics.
        Their sin will be idolatry and will be judged by God accordingly.

        • D.M.S.

          There is a bright side to all of this lunacy from the progressives.
          We’re getting just that much closer to our Lord Christ Jesus return.

        • Kate Johnson

          It’s very sad that you think the church, the body of Christ, will die without your version of orthodoxy. Orthodoxy that bears almost no resemblance to the orthodoxy of even 300 years ago, let alone millennia. Though it does explain a lot. You think it’s all about the rules and traditions, not the sacrificial love of Christ that extends far beyond what your limited and stingy orthodoxy envisions. I think I’ll take my chances erring on the side of mercy, you go ahead and judge yourself silly.

          • blogcom

            You know you should really read the entire New Testament- not just the parts you interpret as loosey- goosey- its quite challenging and well defined.

          • Kate Johnson

            I’ve read the entire New Testament many, many times, studied it in depth for many years and memorized much of it. I came from decades in an evangelical tradition. It was only in the last couple of years when I started to study “outside the bubble” I found out just how deceptive much of what I’d been taught actually was. My existential crisis actually came from “reading the Bible in a Year”. In all honesty, I knew the New Testament, much better than the Old, and after reading the Old Testament all the way through, I had some serious issues. This is what lead me to begin to study outside the bubble, when many of the traditionalist explanations I found were specious at best. I found out many interesting things. Like in the Hebrew Bible “Adom” never meant “man’, it meant “person”. Like the fact that an almost identical creation story and the flood story where actually written by Gilgamesh a thousand years before Moses. Just read about a woman who learned Greek and Aramaic so she could read the scrolls for herself and came away saying that the New Testament has been seriously edited. That’s just a tiny preview of everything I found. I quit trusting the dogma and did my own research. I still believe in God, in fact more than ever. I still read the Bible every day, but I don’t believe it’s a magic inerrant idol. I still spend time in meditation and prayer everyday and have had more victory over sin in the last couple of years and a much broadened “love walk” than I did in all my years as an evangelical devotee. All the while I’ve watch the traditional church have scandal after scandal and become more and more locked in to dogma at the expense of the actual message of the gospel Perhaps you should review first Corinthians. It does say that no matter what you do, if you do not have love, it’s entirely worthless, and if you want to know what that love is supposed to look like, it also informs on that topic as well.

          • D.M.S.

            Satan has you right where he wants you.
            That woman that taught herself Greek and Aramaic. Why?
            I always want to know why people go to all the trouble to learn new languages, especially obscure languages such as those.
            Was it to enhance our scripture?
            or to tear it apart?
            What is her background?
            What is your background?

          • blogcom

            What about ‘Deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me’
            Do you think that’s not demanding sacrifice.

      • D.M.S.

        And everyone of those young people that you embrace with your Satanic debauchery and hatred of God/Jesus will be in hell with you.

    • JD

      You’re just so happy now you can openly hate the gays. Jesus must be do proud of you.

  • Chuck Johnson

    So there’s still plenty of room in the USA for hate, small-mindedness and bigotry.
    And still plenty of room for the exact opposite.
    This is an opportunity for you, Christy.

  • Undercover antifa supersoldier

    I hope there’s a split and I hope you’re successful. No point in remaining in an organisation once it’s made it clear it would rather destroy itself with bigotry and discrimination

  • You seem to believe that the Africans are just in it for the money. What a racist attitude.

    • TS (unami)

      What a shallow, unsubstantiated accusation.

      • There were constant accusations about ‘the Africans’, who will apparently ”miss the money’. The tone is condescending and imperialist.

        I have no issue calling the author a racist.

  • jock1234

    5 Stars UP !
    Way to go Methodists…
    I’m not a Methodist, but I admire those who don’t cave to “every wind of doctrine, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.”

    VERY HAPPY & PLEASED with your STANCE!

    • JD

      Translation: I’m very happy that we can now kickout the gays.

      • Ron McPherson

        Wonder why the Methodists don’t deny marriage to the previously divorced (for reasons other than infidelity)? Apparently that’s NOT caving in to “every wind of doctrine.” The hypocrisy would be laughable were it not so sad.

        • D.M.S.

          Hello Ron, how are you doing:-)

        • Dennis Wilson

          Adultery, just like Homosexuality, is a forgivable sin. There are scores of Christians who were not Christians when they were divorced and subsequently remarried after they became Christians.

          Those who are practicing Homosexuals are NOT Christians and neither are those who are married and practice adultery. Neither of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6-9-10 is very plain. The two show by their lifestyles that they are not Christians.

  • Episcopalian here to let you know I’m familiar with just about every argument pro and con. I’m not familiar with WCA. What does that stand for?

    • Phil-L

      In this setting, I believe WCA refers to the Wesleyan Covenant Association.

  • bWeBaptist

    Methodist women, you are not safe in this new ruling by the Methodists. Fundamentalism will overtake you, encompass you, and swallow you up. It will happen unless you stand up. There are only 23% women pastors now in the Methodist church, your numbers are not great enough to make a difference unless you stand up now while you still can. Because fundamentalist SBC and others will embrace the Methodists in their decision, Methodists will stop hiring women pastors, Fundamentalism is a three-legged stool: Bible inerrancy, male headship, no homosexuals.

    • Kate Johnson

      You are so right about that. Where one is, the others are quick to follow.

    • Reese

      Questions:
      1) What does “overtake you, encompass you, and swallow you up” mean? Specifics?
      2) How is “23% women pastors now in the Methodist church…not great enough to make a difference”? What difference need be made? Women aren’t forced to cook, clean or have sex in our churches by male preachers, are they?
      3) Have you considered that at the current rate of Methodist decline, that fewer clergy in general will be needed, both male and female?
      4) If the Methodist BoD is so unfair to homosexuals, why have they kept joining for the last 50 years? BoD is in public print for all to see, yet it seems to be ignored by both homosexuals and homosexuals who want to be clergy. Why not just go clergy at a progressive denomination? Its the same Bible. Mostly the same songs. Same Christmas stuff. Why insist on being miserable where homosexuals feel unfairly treated? This is America. If your Ford doesn’t work, switch to Chevy…

      • bWeBaptist

        Reese, that was really interesting what you said. Thanks for writing. For 52 years I was a Baptist, even worked 14 1/2 years for Baptists and when I began advocating for women’s equality to be pastors, I was told “Go join the Methodist church.” So I did. Switched to a Chevy. And found out they still have reservations about women preachers. Like I said, thanks for expressing your thoughts so eloquently.

        • Reese

          So, no specifics? How liberal.

          • bWeBaptist

            Yes, Reese. I will be specific. In the 10 years I have been working for women’s equality in the church and home, I have heard from those just like you who love to use the most un-Christian language to get your point across. I have been called liberal more times than I can remember. You are not unique. Just one of the crowd who loves to bash other Christians. My husband opened my eyes to the fact that women are treated unfairly in Baptist churches and it was he who helped me decide to join the Methodists. My ministry is to women who desire to pastor, but most of the time I find it is men who are yelling the loudest.

          • Reese

            I don’t really care about the specifics. I just like pointing out the outrageous things liberals say and write with no specifics. You mean there is no proof that Methodist preachers, the traditional ones of course, really don’t force Methodist women to cook, clean, or have sex? Who knew? LOL

          • D.M.S.

            I’m a man and if I walk into any church and there is a woman pastor, minister, clergy. I’ll walk right out because it’s not scriptural for a woman to do that.

          • TS (unami)

            Why be condescending? She’s trying to engage…

          • D.M.S.

            I’ll be specific. Women are
            ‘ NOT ‘ to be clergy in any church.
            By what the HolySpirits scripture states.

      • swbarnes2

        So in your mind, if women aren’t being literally enslaved, there can’t possibly be a problem with their treatment?

        Hatred of gays comes from a place of worshiping gender roles. You can’t have gender equality and treat gay people like garbage. Conservatives who think gays are unnaturally sinful are not going to line up to be taught by a woman. They are going to push women into “traditional” roles.

  • Kate Johnson

    In a time when the church is absolutely steeped in mammon worship, the preferential treatment of the wealthy, the abandonment of the “least of these” and contaminated by horrific wide spread by child sexual abuse, it’s kind of amazing that this is “the big issue”, isn’t it?

  • HamburgerHelperAgain

    Want to know who to blame? Blame the very conservative constituency in the global south who mostly voted against this.

    • Reese

      I blame the loony liberals in the NE and W for getting us into this mess in the first place.

      • James Hucke

        Lifelong Methodist here in the Sunny South (North Carolina). The South has most of the fastest growing cities that are progressive and forward thinking. Many of my church members, including Pastors I know, were saddened to hear that we did not move forward to treat our LGBT members equally. The reason it happened is the growth in African nations that are far more conservative (to the point of homosexuality being illegal). Of course, I know others who support the decision (and I wouldn’t call them insulting names- or bring politics into this like you just did- I understand & respect their position). I would like to think the U.S. is more Progressive in the 21st Century- and we all have a lot of work to do to make our LGBT members feel welcome.

        • James Hucke

          I see you were responding to another post. He was referencing the Global South (sub-Saharan Africa) not U.S. “Sweet Tea & the SEC” or ACC where I live South 😉

        • Reese

          Hey, James, from winter-depressing Texas… “Progressive”? To yield to the morals of Sodom and Gomorrah is not “progress”. We who believe that our house should be built on a rock, are not likely to adapt to the shifting sands of today’s morality. There are many places that welcome homosexual clergy and weddings, so why mess up my church?

          • James Hucke

            I may have come off a bit strong there so I’ll clarify. I have seen the ugly side of bigotry, mean-spiritedness (hearing stories of teen suicides and people pushed out of churches) and I will go out of my way to be kind/invite gays to church. I do not believe that people who support the General Conference decision are unkind or bigoted in any way- I understand their position (about gay clergy and gay marriage). If I error- I will error on the side of loving people.

          • Reese

            There are many suicides among returning veterans. Still, we send more to war. You are not too strong, life is harsh and we must stand our ground.

          • James Hucke

            People can hold the position for no gay clergy / not marrying homosexuals in church- but as Christians we also must be kind/everyone is welcome to the table. I don’t think people killed themselves because they couldn’t become a Methodist Pastor- or get married by one- but rather extreme bullying, being rejected by parents/family/church.
            Also, I just realized how dumb is title of this article. Regardless, we did not become a church that “hates gays”. I feel like I’ve had it from both sides- the last few years I’ve had the Evangelical right tell me my church doesn’t follow the Bible – and the far left saying “now we hate gays”. I disagree with both statements. I have church friends and others outside the church that have the same position as you and they don’t “hate”. I believe people can disagree on the issues and still love one another.

          • D.M.S.

            Mathew 10:32-39.

          • James

            However, disagreeing with a basic part (and harmless part) of another person’s being is indeed hate, and is incompatible with the Gospel of Christ. Please try to imagine yourself in the shoes of those whom the church has voted to refuse to welcome.

          • D.M.S.

            If the lgbtq and or heterosexuals can’t give up their sinful lifestyle to serve Christ Jesus then they’re welcome to leave.
            And start their own organizations.

          • James Hucke

            I am sure if I were gay, or if a close family member was gay, I would feel different. (Angrier for sure.) I am against the traditional plan and was in favor of the one church plan. My goal is to be as inclusive and kind to the LGBTQ in my community (and especially at church). However, I know good people who hold the opinion that clergy should not be gay nor should they marry LGBTQ in the UMC. They don’t hate- they feel gay clergy or clergy marrying gays would go against biblical teachings. That is not my way of thinking- but I’m going to be respectful to them as well. The more I thought about it- I don’t find these titles “…Now we’re the UMC that hates gays” as helpful or accurate. (Another one here read “the UMC is officially dead”- Nope, not true- we all gathered Sunday morning like we always do. I don’t think these titles reflect the best way to move forward in an organization that has divided opinions and still needs minister to both (all) sides.

          • D.M.S.

            They’re welcome to come to church. But they have to reform of their sin of sexual immorality under God/Jesus.

          • D.M.S.

            Christ Jesus/God condemns all forms of homosexual sex

          • Zeigler John

            Your church? Therein lies the problem. The church belongs to God, and not to us mere mortal sinners. There is quite a difference to listening for God’s speaking and taking our preconceptions to scripture and overlaying those on what we find in the bible. Fundamentalists by and large know what they believe and refuse to be swayed by facts or careful exegesis to the contrary.

          • Reese

            “swayed by facts” is what we’re talkin’ about! We traditionalists accept the Bible as the foundation of facts. You liberals are flexible on facts.

          • Zeigler John

            I am glad to know you are into facts. The fact is the church does not belong to you or me, but to God. And it is God who is the source and foundation of all truth, not preconceived cultural notions nor interpretations of scripture not based in a careful listening to what God is saying. Most folk in the fundamentalist camp who I know take the position of not listening to God because they already know what they believe, and refuse to be persuaded that they may be wrong in spite of overwhelming evidence (including careful biblical exegesis) to the contrary.

          • D.M.S.

            ‘ LIAR ‘…..Ziegler.

          • Zeigler John

            Well in the midst of your fit of pique you could at least do me the courtesy of spelling my name correctly.

          • Zeigler John

            Thank you for your kind, but wrong-headed thoughts. You do not know me nor do you know the people I know in the fundamentalist side of the church. Name calling is definitely childish and a sign of severe arrested development in one who might claim to be an adult.

          • D.M.S.

            By reading your lies on these pages it’s obvious that you’re a “ LIAR “.

          • Reese

            There are at least two ways to use the word “my”. One way denotes ownership, like “my golf ball”, “my beer”, “my pick-up” and one denotes membership or association, like, “my golf club”, “my church”, “my school”, “my friends”. How silly of me to assume you could discern the correct meaning…

          • Zeigler John

            It’s still not yours, any way you cut it or play the semantics game.

          • Zeigler John

            No, it’s not possible not to sin. Jesus alone sets aside our sins and makes resurrection life possible.

          • blogcom

            Definitely another Gospel you’re endorsing proving the traditional stance and the liberal one are incompatible in every way and the reason unity is impossible. .

          • Melody Richardson

            You wouldn’t know facts if they bit you in your uneducated, bigoted face.

          • Mojo

            Wow. It is hateful people that you that give Christians a bad name.

          • D.M.S.

            It won’t be God/Jesus church anymore if the progressive left lgbtq takes it over and teaches it’s good to ‘SIN’ .

          • M Meier

            I believe by “my church”, Reese was meaning a spirit of ownership in the church, something we should all aspire to do. I happen to agree with Reese. There are many churches in which members of the LGBTQ+++ community can go to worship and be a part of a church family. I do not believe this was about inclusion into the UMC – this was about taking charge of the UMC and “fundamentally transforming” it, just like they did all those other churches.

          • blogcom

            It’s important to examine your own motives

          • James

            Nobody is trying to “mess up” your (?) church, but rather to call it to a closer following of the Gospel of Christ – love your neighbor as yourself, including your neighbor whom God created gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgender or intersex.

          • D.M.S.

            God/Jesus created no one lgbtq.

        • D.M.S.

          Are all of your lgbt members celibate?
          If they’re ‘ NOT’ they’re
          ‘ NOT ‘ following Bible scripture.

          • James Hucke

            I honestly don’t know because I don’t make a habit of asking about the sex lives of everyone at my church 🙂 CBS had a good program last year called “Living Biblically”. I think it was well done, and positive for Christianity and religion overall, but the point was how hard it would be to follow every single Verse of the Bible. Can you honestly say that you follow every single verse of the Bible all of the time? Are there church members who are Divorcees, adulterers (people who have ever had an adulterous thought?) Do any have pre-marital sex/sex outside marriage? Go sell everything you own and give it to the poor. Thousands of Verses about greed. Should we make everyone who doesn’t follow every single Scripture an outcast? Is that our job? Or should we love and let God do the judging?

          • D.M.S.

            YES…I try to live my life through GOD/JESUS scripture.
            Are you a Christian?
            If you are a Christian.
            Don’t you try also?

          • James Hucke

            Absolutely! It just seems selective to me to make one group outcasts. If we did that for everyone we’d have an empty church. Based on the gay people I know, they all say it’s not a choice they always were attracted to the same sex just like we are attracted to the opposite sex. Some may choose to be celibate and follow the Bible- I understand the position of those who don’t want gay clergy/gay marriage- my position has always been to be kind and accepting to those who are treated poorly by society (and unfortunately, sometimes, treated poorly by those who are commanded to love one another- without exception).

          • D.M.S.

            It is a choice. When it comes to serving God/Jesus for all of us. Lgbtq and heterosexuals.
            We serve God/Jesus and leave our sinfilled lives to serve Him.
            God/Jesus considers all lgbtq sex to be sinful.
            Heterosexual are also to abstain from anything sexual until marriage. Which is the only kind of marriage that God/Jesus accepts is heterosexual marriage.
            Peace.

          • James

            Some of the Bible is simply incompatible with the Gospel of Christ. For example, Leviticus 20:13, Leviticus 25:44-46, and other passages. Let go of your hate and choose to follow Jesus of Nazareth. You have not yet done so.

          • D.M.S.

            Yes I have accepted Christ Jesus as my Lord and Savior.
            You do know that Christ Jesus is GOD don’t you?
            He and the Father are one.
            Father GOD and Son GOD are the same.
            John 10:30.

          • D.M.S.

            The GOD of the Old Testament and the GOD of the New Testament are the same GOD.
            John10:30.
            Peace.

          • D.M.S.

            Do you happen to know the Jewish laws of the year of Jubilee?

      • HamburgerHelperAgain

        By the global south I am referring to Africa, Latin America and Asian countries. Most of the churches in these countries are conservative even those churches that are part of mainline denominations that have liberal congregations here in the U.S.

        • newenglandsun

          I was a white minority in the Anglican Church. All of the conservatives these days tend to be Nigerians though I was among the few conservative white folk remaining.

      • Melody Richardson

        I blame bigots like you. Jesus is ashamed of you.

    • D.M.S.

      Praise the Lord for the conservative constituency everywhere in all the churches.
      Hallelujah!

      • Melody Richardson

        Shut up, troll.

        • D.M.S.

          Christ Jesus is our Lord and Savior and I love Him.
          Jesus loves you too.
          Peace.

    • newenglandsun

      Keyword: global. Not the American south, the global south. It was the African bishops yet again saving the day. They always do. That’s not racism against white people, that’s an historic fact. Doesn’t look good for the white phonies though in American jurisdictions shouting “racism!” at every single Church tradition since Nicaea.

  • D.M.S.

    Well by everything I’ve read here and how Leviticus 18:33 and 20:13 reads
    GOD/JESUS is also a BIGOT.
    By how you progressives think.

    GOD/JESUS condemns Homosexual sex and marriage.

    • Zeigler John

      Jesus did not have anything to say about homosexuality.

      • D.M.S.

        John 10:30.
        Christ Jesus whether you know it or not is “ GOD “.
        And “ GOD “ condemns homosexual sex and marriage.

        • Melody Richardson

          Wrong. There is nowhere in the Bible that condemns gay marriage. And before you come at me with your tired old clobber passages, the word for “homosexual” didn’t exist when the Bible was written. It was translated into English by homophobes like you. You don’t know Jesus, and you certainly don’t love him.

          • D.M.S.

            Yes, for thousands of years it was called sexual immorality.
            And liberals changed what sexual immorality is considered now.
            God considers 2 men having sexual relations together an abomination to Him.
            Jesus is GOD.

          • Melody Richardson

            Shut up, Pharisee.

          • Mojo

            Wow. Every comment from you is just rabbid gnashing of teeth. If you were a dog, you’d be put down.

          • D.M.S.

            Why are you in fear of our Lord God/Jesus truth of sexual sin?

          • D.M.S.

            I guess you haven’t read Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13.
            Have you?

          • James

            Neither verse is compatible with the Gospel of Christ. Let go of your hate and choose to follow Jesus of Nazareth. You have not yet done so.

          • D.M.S.

            Maybe someday you’ll figure out that the GOD of the Old Testament and the GOD of the New Testament are the same GOD.
            John 10:30.
            Peace.

          • James

            God is God, yes. However, the writers of the Bible were not. They made mistakes.

          • D.M.S.

            The writers of NASB, ESV, Greek Testament and Hebrew Testament translations made ‘ NO ‘ mistakes.
            ALL Scripture is GOD/JESUS Breathed and Inspred by GOD/JESUS.

          • James

            Your wanting to believe that does not make it so. Nobody (including you) agrees with everything that the Bible writers claimed about the will of God. Please be honest with yourself; let go of your hate; and learn how to follow Jesus of Nazareth.

          • D.M.S.

            I believe all of scripture 100+%.
            Praise the Lord!

          • D.M.S.

            Jesus inspired those passages in Leviticus.
            As He did in Daniel, Isaiah and Proverbs, etc.

          • D.M.S.

            Not One sexually active lgbtq person married or not will enter the kingdom of heaven.
            Born again means we leave our old sinful past behind and try to lead a sinless life for our Lord Christ Jesus, serving Him.

          • D.M.S.

            Jesus of Nazareth is the same God in the Old Testament and Jesus of Nazareth condemns all ‘ Sexual ‘ relations outside of the Marriage bed of all heterosexual couples.

          • D.M.S.

            Christ Jesus states in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13. That men who engage in sexual relations with each other is an abomination to Him.

          • James

            You have missed the whole point of the Gospel of Christ. Stop hating and learn to love.

          • D.M.S.

            No you missed the whole point of what God/Jesus stated in Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13. Homosexual sexual relations to God/Jesus are an “ Abomination “ to Him.
            Abomination means hate.
            God/Jesus “ HATES “ homosexual sexual relations of every kind.
            You’ve been blinded by God/Jesus truth.
            So you can enjoy your abominable SIN of homosexual sex.

          • D.M.S.

            You have missed the whole point of the scriptures of God/Jesus.
            All lgbtq sexual relations are an Abomination unto God/Jesus, they’re condemned.

          • D.M.S.

            And you have missed the whole pint of the teaching of Christ Jesus.
            We cannot keep living in sin everyday and expect to enter the kingdom of GOD.
            That’s what born again means, leaving the old sinfilled life behind and trying to embrace a sinless life for our Lord Christ Jesus.
            While serving Him.

          • Melody Richardson

            Shut up, bigot. That’s Moses in the Old Testament, not Jesus.

          • Mojo

            The same Hy Spirit that inspired Moses inspired Paul. That same Holy Spirit is God, just as much as Jesus is.

          • D.M.S.

            Jesus is GOD.
            And GOD inspired all of His writers in the Old and New Testament to tell us the truth of sin.
            That same sexual immorality is found in Romans and 1 Corinthians.

          • Mojo

            Neither do you, since you blatently twist God’s Word to for your perverted lifestyle choice.

      • D.M.S.

        Did GOD?

        • Zeigler John

          Check you earlier post. Jesus is God.

          • D.M.S.

            Yes He is.
            But there are many on these forums who don’t know that truth about our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.

    • Melody Richardson

      No, he doesn’t. Homophobic bigots like you do.

      • D.M.S.

        Everyone is a bigot these days, including you.
        Look up the definition of a bigot.
        You’ll be surprised to see that you’re also intolerant of others.
        Peace.

    • Chuck Johnson

      God recommends all sorts of violent, murderous and genocidal behavior in the Bible.
      In the Bible, God embarrasses himself over and over.

      • D.M.S.

        GOD created human beings.
        GOD can’t help it if all they want to do is defy His authority and sin.
        GOD gave humanity 120 years to repent before the flood came. No one repented, except for 8 people including Noah.

        • Chuck Johnson

          This is the kind of showbiz presented to children in Sunday school.
          The story includes a lovely little wooden boat with cute dancing and singing pairs of animals. A delightful rainbow glows overhead.
          Fundamentalists embarrass themselves over and over.

          • D.M.S.

            True Christians don’t care if people laugh or make fun of them.
            We Christians are to tell the world to repent of their sins.
            What the world does with that information is on those who received the warning to repent.
            Laugh at us to your hearts content.
            God//Jesus loves all of us.
            Peace.

        • gimpi1

          OK, I don’t really have a dog in this fight, as I’m not a member of your faith. However, I can’t just breeze by this.

          There was never a world-wide flood. Large, regional floods, yes, but no worldwide flood. The geologic record is very clear.

          It’s just that you talked about facts, but you’re ignoring them, in favor of a mythology you prefer. And that’s fine. But it’s not a fact.

          The world is billions of years old. The universe is far older than the earth. Life, including human life, descended from common ancestors. And there has not been anything like a world-wide flood while humans have been extant on earth. These are all objective facts, verified by evidence.

          (Oh, and the best evidence we have right now indicates that sexual orientation is inborn. Just FYI, not that you’ll care. Understand, however that people who don’t share your beliefs can’t get behind your desire for discrimination, any more than those who weren’t bigoted against black people could get behind Jim Crow. I know you’ll find this offensive, but there’s really no other way to explain how this looks to those of us on the outside, and you don’t seem to care about insulting others, so what the heck.)

          • D.M.S.

            The world is ‘ NOT a billion years old. I doubt that it’s even close to 50,000 years old.
            If you want to believe that fairytale go ahead.

          • gimpi1

            I’m not a geologist, but I married one. You pick things up. I can read a road cut, I understand the basics of subduction, I know what strontium dating is, I know the rate of plate movement for most of the earth’s larger plates, l understand the basics of diamond-pipes, I grasp the relationship between gold deposits and quarts and I know what index fossils are. Geologists like my husband use ‘fairytales’ like these things to find things like petroleum, diamonds, uranium or gold. All these working geologic principles have been used to date the earth’s formation at 4.5 billion years ago, give or take.

          • D.M.S.

            Our worlds geologist are all idiots as far as I’m concerned.
            God/Jesus created this entire universe.
            No evolution needed or wanted.
            Carbon dating is another fallacy.

          • D.M.S.

            100% baloney…

          • gimpi1

            Well, that’s a devastating, logical argument…

            Seriously, all you supporting D.M.S., is this level of rationality OK with you? Are you all equally unable to deal with physical reality? This is a real question. I just don’t get this unwillingness to learn. Is the ‘traditional’ path in your faith this divorced from resson?

          • D.M.S.

            It’s still 100% baloney.
            This entire universe has been created by God/Jesus in less than 50,000 years ago.
            And there’s no amount of so-called scientific manure that will make me believe otherwise, along with millions of other Christians.
            Blessings.

      • D.M.S.

        When God/Jesus annihilates an entire people. He gave them plenty of time to turn away from their sins before they were destroyed.
        It’s on the people for their defiance.
        God/Jesus is always just.

        • Chuck Johnson

          Very dramatic and very false.
          You have been sucked in by the drama of the ancient tales.

          • D.M.S.

            You’re welcome to your opinion.
            But I’ll have to disagree.

          • D.M.S.

            As the world is sucked into the ancient fairytales of evolution.

            God/Jesus created all of the universe that exist today.

          • Chuck Johnson

            Science is hard.
            Superstition is easy.
            You just don’t bother to learn.

          • D.M.S.

            Science wouldn’t even exist without God/Jesus.
            As you don’t bother to learn.

  • newenglandsun

    Judging by the results of the UMC synod thingy whatever, the U.S. branch of your church has bigger issues with racism and Americanism.

    • Zeigler John

      Exactly!

  • blogcom

    Some thoughts;

    People must realize this isn’t a straightforward fight between accepting gay marriage and ordination in the institutional Church or not, even though its presented this way.

    Granted its an important issue for both sides for very different reasons but its more complicated.

    The gist of it is liberal Christianity is not compatible with traditional Christianity in any way.

    We understand everything differently- what constitutes basic Christianity most of all- so compromise is out of the question.

    The fight is really about traditional Christianity versus the non traditional kind and which side wins out at the end of the day.

    People outside of Orthodoxy have dreamed up their own brand of Christianity which in reality is nothing more than the spiritualization of humanism.

    Add the concept of identity politics into the mix and you have a very different religion.

    The present debate must be viewed against this backdrop .

    • Zeigler John

      There is one church, and God is Lord of the church, in spite of the differences we perceive. God loves LGBTQIA sinners just as much as all others, in spite of our sin. Paul covers the issue very well in his letter to the church at Rome, by laying out a litany of sins in the first chapter and then going on from chapter 2 on to say everyone is guilty, but everyone in Christ has the opportunity for resurrection. God alone is judge, and none of us mortals has the keys or the license to drive the great throne of judgment on which God sits enthroned. For us humans it is more important to be loving than to be right, because God alone is able to clothe us in the righteousness of Jesus. Jesus did not come to make us better people, but to raise us to eternal life. We would all be well advised to remove the log from our own eyes before we attempt to help our brothers and sisters remove the speck from theirs.

    • TS (unami)

      What you don’t understand is that Methodism itself is not traditional Christianity.

      None of the Protestant sects are. They all broke away in escalating division from traditional Christianity, even to the point of denying books of the Bible and creating their own abbreviated version. They disregard the holy sacraments, the saints and the teachings of the early church fathers.

      Don’t try to pass off this internal squabble of a breakaway faction as “Traditional Christianity”.
      It’s not.

      • blogcom

        I’m not referring to Methodism specifically- I’m not Methodist- but the more traditional faiths like Anglicism/Catholicism- and others- who go further back with beliefs based on the Apostles creed and other teachings.

      • Jon Xavier

        Just think of traditional Protestantism as Catholic Christianity without the syncretism and idolatry of Rome. And, by the way, there are very liberal elements….and even more sexual perversion in Rome.

        So much for the power of saints’ intercession.

      • Chuck Johnson

        All forms of Christianity have been invented by human beings.
        Some are older, some are newer.

      • D.M.S.

        Satan started the catholic church.
        There great “ POOP “ can change scripture if he wants to.
        That’s Satans church only.

  • Jon Xavier

    Sexual perversion in any form is degenerate desire. Obviously. Just as stealing, undue violence, deceit, etc. It’s just that homosexuality is so openly demonstrable it cannot but draw special ire.

    Too, the fact that the church go further than science in claiming it’s determined is also startling for anyone concerned with reason rather than anecdotes. Sure, homosexuals can appear normal and wholesome. And many parts of their lives are. Except when shaking hips when having none or creating a false tone of voice or lisp. But, so did most priests before being caught.

    Thus, anecdotes and emotional appeals are meaningless, even in an age when they most always appear to trump reason, commonsense, or even evidence. And, when the church no longer pursues or even knows what holiness is, we look, think, and act like everyone else.

    • Melody Richardson

      This is hate speech, and I’ve flagged it. People like you are why Christians are hated.

      • Jon Xavier

        Yes, truth is a hateful thing to relativist bigots.

        Here’s some more….

        liberals talk about loving neighbors but give almost nothing to charity compared to conservatives. The fact is, liberals love sin and don’t require change. That’s not love but simply complacency. And it’s why the liberal Church produces no saints, no great mission efforts, no great relief agencues, no shelters, no hospitals, and only dying congregations. In short, liberals love talking about love and asking someone else do the actual loving, which is hard work costly, compelled by reality, and being an actual disciple.

        • Melody Richardson

          If anyone is going to hell, it’s you. You don’t know or love Jesus, and you are a monster.

      • Jon Xavier

        And people like you are the reason the church is weak and dying. Besides, didn’t Jesus say the world would hate his true disciples just as it hates truth and the truth about itself?

        • Kate Johnson

          The church is not weak or dying, your social club is not the church.

        • TS (unami)

          Hateful bigotry against LGBTQ people made in God’s Image is not what a “true” disciple does.

          I suggest that you read the Gospels for once.

      • D.M.S.

        Christians are hated because Jesus was/is hated.

        • Kate Johnson

          If only most American Christians actually bore the slightest resemblance to Jesus, that might be valid. However, they far more resemble the Pharisees than Jesus. Self righteous, arrogant, utterly lacking in humility, producing little fruit of the spirit, mammon/comfort worshiping, tribal and self absorbed. A horrible witness over all. But hey, you just go ahead and keep telling yourself that.

          • D.M.S.

            It’s in scripture Kate.
            And Christ Jesus made the statement.

        • Melody Richardson

          You are a liar and a hypocrite. Jesus hates you.

          • D.M.S.

            Jesus hates no one.
            Including you and me.
            But Jesus does hate sin.
            Give up your sin and come to Christ Jesus and accept Him.

        • TS (unami)

          Your speech here is NOTHING like that of Jesus.

          NOTHING.

          • D.M.S.

            Those were Jesus own words.
            Mathew 10:22…You will be Hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end that will be saved.
            Mathew 24:9…Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nation for My name’s sake.
            Mark 13:13….Mathew 6:24….
            John 15:18…If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you.

          • TS (unami)

            NONE of that indicates that LGBTQ people are these persecutors!
            In fact, many LGBTQ Christians are your brothers and sisters in Christ.

          • D.M.S.

            Only the lgbtq ones who are trying to live a celibate life, after being born again in Christ Jesus.

          • TS (unami)

            Again, IN YOUR OPINION.

            You, thankfully, are NOT God and you do NOT speak for God.

          • D.M.S.

            Scripture does speak for God/Jesus. You’re just to blind in your world to see His truth. 1John 2:15-17.

          • TS (unami)

            Did Jesus command Numbers 31?

          • D.M.S.

            Yes,yes,yes,yes, yeshua did.

          • TS (unami)

            Sick.
            #ThingsJesusNeverSaid

          • D.M.S.

            Is Jesus GOD?

          • D.M.S.

            What makes you think that Jesus never stated it?

    • James

      Let go of your hate and choose to love your neighbor as yourself, including your neighbor whom God created gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgender or intersex. Holiness does not exist without love for one’s neighbor.

      • Jon Xavier

        liberals talk about loving neighbors but give almost nothing to charity compared to conservatives. The fact is, liberals love sin and don’t require change. That’s not love but simply complacency. And it’s why the liberal Church produces no saints, no great mission efforts, no great relief agencues, no shelters, no hospitals, and only dying congregations. In short, liberals love talking about love and asking someone else do the actual loving, which is hard work costly, compelled by reality, and being an actual disciple.

        • Kate Johnson

          Such a great example of why very few people under 30 go to church anymore. There’s no Jesus there at all. Just a bunch of self righteous, judgmental, hypocrites, whose love walk is literally non existent. A tribal, self congratulatory social club, with little regenerate life or sacrificial love in evidence. Your fantasy that conservatives give more than liberals is literally laughable. Check out the Barna study and you’ll see that less than 14% of people claiming to be Christians tithe ten percent. The average is 1%. Probably because while you all are hysterical about gays, mammon worship is literally the cornerstone of the American church. Preferential treatment for the rich is customary, and the entire Southern Baptist church is overrun with pedophiles.

          • D.M.S.

            Does your withering church accept the blasphemy of homosexual perversion?

          • TS (unami)

            They’re spending “giving” all that money to buy the “Pastaah” his new $35 Million dollar private jet…

        • Melody Richardson

          More hate speech. Reported.

        • TS (unami)

          Ha! sure about that?
          LOL

      • Jon Xavier

        God didn’t create that. It’s called sin nature. Some people are born with violent tendencies. Did God create that? When identical twins are separated at birth, when one is homosexual there’s a 50 percent chance the other will be. So, again, they were not so created.

      • D.M.S.

        Loving our neighbor does not mean that we have accept their sin.

        • TS (unami)

          Good thing that being created LGBTQ isn’t a sin!

          • D.M.S.

            No one is created lgbtq by God /Jesus.
            It’s all an individual choice.

          • TS (unami)

            In YOUR opinion.
            You aren’t GOD and you don’t speak for GOD.

      • D.M.S.

        GOD/JESUS created ‘ NO ONE ‘
        lgbtq.

        • TS (unami)

          LIE! You aren’t GOD and you don’t speak for Him.

          • D.M.S.

            God/Jesus stated it in Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13.

          • TS (unami)

            No, he did not.
            Maybe you think he also commanded Numbers 31?!?

          • D.M.S.

            The Bible is the ‘ inerrant ‘ word(s) of God/Jesus.
            I do hope that the HolySpirit takes the blinders off of your soon.
            God/Jesus commands all scripture.

          • TS (unami)

            Is Numbers 31 “inerrant”?

          • D.M.S.

            All scripture is.

          • TS (unami)

            Really, now…
            Hmmm.
            So Genocide, Rape and Forced Sex Slavery are all somehow “inerrant” commands for a deity to make, huh?

          • D.M.S.

            Yes,yes,yes,yes,yes,yes,yes.
            People keep trying to humanize God/Jesus. He doesn’t follow our rules. We follow Him, obediently.

          • TS (unami)

            Sick. Sick. Sick. Sick. Sick.

            You endorse
            Genocide
            Rape
            Forced Sex Slavery

            and think ANY of those are “godly”?!?

            WTF

          • JD

            DMS also literally believes that bats are birds for “the bible sez so” ….

          • TS (unami)

            He’s said some truly horrible things, and a few directly to me. I don’t know why I keep trying to open his eyes…

          • JD

            People like DMS are rarely capable of a true change of heart for they are too deeply ingrained into their religious paranoia. A rare few actually wake up when they realize they’ve been taught to hate someone they love. Sadly, often it’s too late and the damage is done.

          • TS (unami)

            true 🙁

          • D.M.S.

            You want me to discuss scripture with you when you’re in total agreement with JD who ‘ hates ‘ God/Jesus and everything about Him.
            This is going to be interesting

          • D.M.S.

            You are absolutely correct all of my change of recent years has come from the inerrant word(s) in scripture from God/Jesus.
            And biblical scripture is 100% correct.

          • JD

            You did not have a change of heart. It was brainwashed and hardened.

          • Ron McPherson

            When I once reminded him of his own horrible quotes, in the hopes that it would somehow jar him to see what he had actually said, he instead doubled down and praised the Lord for them. That’s when I knew there were some real issues at work here.

          • D.M.S.

            The Bible states that bats are fowl.

          • JD

            I rest my case.

          • TS (unami)

            Then you are a prime TOOL to commit any heinous crime against another because you were “told” to do so.

            Weak. And seriously, very disturbing.

          • D.M.S.

            God/Jesus comes before my wife, my children, my parents, my grandparents, my siblings and me in everything.
            Mathew10:32-39.
            I advise you not to read the book of Revelation of Jesus Christ, then.
            Over 4/5th of the world is annihilated for their blatant disobedience to God/Jesus.

          • D.M.S.

            Yes.
            Are you still believing in what Herm and Ron McPherson is telling you about scripture.
            Don’t do it.
            Go find some Bible scholars that can actually tell you what Numbers 31 mean.
            Bible Scholars that you don’t know.

            You either want the Lord God/Jesus and His word in your life or you don’t.
            If you’ve made Numbers 31 a lie. What else is a lie, or is it all a lie.
            Why would you want to tear down the very inspired words of God/Jesus?
            Ask yourself that TS, what motive do I have to tear apart the scripture?
            Why do you TS?
            I can tell by the conversations we’ve had in the past year that you are intelligent.
            Don’t trust anyone. Find out for yourself.
            Google it if you have to.
            Is there a large library near you.
            If you want the truth search for it yourself.
            But please go with an open mind and pray before each search.
            The HolySpirit is here to help us.

          • TS (unami)

            And again, you fail to answer the actual question…

            One more time,
            is Numbers 31 “inerrant”?

            I don’t want a Google answer. I want to hear YOU explain away the horrific things commanded by God in Numbers 31.
            Go.
            Explain why YOU, “DMS”, think that Numbers 31 is “inerrant”… I want to hear it from your own mouth, in front of everyone here.

          • D.M.S.

            Because all of scripture is the
            “ Inerrant “ word(s) of God/Jesus.
            Go ask a Rabbi at a synagogue about Numbers 31’s Truth .

          • TS (unami)

            NO, I’m asking YOU.
            Do YOU think that the actions in Numbers 31 are “inerrant”, “DMS”?
            Have some backbone and speak for yourself.

          • D.M.S.

            Yes,yes,yes,yes,yes,yes,yes,yes,yes.

          • D.M.S.

            Yes it is the inerrant word of God. But as Christians and or non-Christians we will never understand why GOD does what He does.

          • D.M.S.

            Go to a synagogue and ask a Rabbi about the truth of Numbers 31.

          • TS (unami)

            You claim that it’s all written by Jesus — YOU explain yourself.

          • D.M.S.

            Is Jesus( yeshua ) GOD?

      • D.M.S.

        God/Jesus created no one lgbtq.
        They’re all an abomination unto God/Jesus.

        • TS (unami)

          False! You aren’t GOD and you don’t speak for Him.

      • TS (unami)

        Well said, @disqus_oAVdSHYft6:disqus. 🙂

        • D.M.S.

          You, Melody and James “ HATE “ God/Jesus if you believe that GOD/JESUS created anyone lgbtq.
          Which GOD/JESUS calls an ABOMINATION to HIM.

          • TS (unami)

            You don’t speak for GOD.
            Eating shrimp is an ABOMINATION.
            Being a gay human being created in God’s Image is NOT.

          • D.M.S.

            Scripture speaks for God/Jesus.
            So you believe that God/Jesus is gay?

          • TS (unami)

            Do you believe that some people are not made in God’s Image? Are some people “less human” than others?

          • D.M.S.

            God/Jesus is not gay and never has been. And absolutely no one is created lgbtq.
            That’s blasphemy to call God/Jesus gay.

          • D.M.S.

            All people are created in God/Jesus image.
            But “ NONE “ of those images are lgbtq.

          • D.M.S.

            I don’t. Relieve scripture state that shrimp is an abomination.
            Chapter and verse please.

    • Chuck Johnson

      The sun is going down on your style of hate, vanity, arrogance and ignorance.
      The world is becoming a better place for people to thrive.
      Wake up and notice what’s happening around you.

      • Jon Xavier

        The sun is going down on my views. Well, given that it is liberal congregations that are dying off…. And that makes sense. It’s just easier to be a political leftist, pray to the best version of yourself projected into heaven (what liberals call God), and skip church altogether.

        Or, as is clear to any outsider that you imagine to be impressing can see….

        “I’m delighted that liberal theologians do their best to do what Pio Nono said shouldn’t be done – try to accommodate Christianity to modern science, modern culture, and democratic society. If I were a fundamentalist Christian, I’d be appalled by the wishy-washiness of [the liberal] version of the Christian faith. But since I am a non-believer who is frightened of the barbarity of many fundamentalist Christians (e.g. their homophobia), I welcome theological liberalism. Maybe liberal theologians will eventually produce a version of Christianity so wishy-washy that nobody will be interested in being a Christian anymore. If so, something will have been lost, but probably more will have been gained.”

        • D.M.S.

          That will never happen.
          God/Jesus has other plans for this world and none of you can stop what’s going to happen.
          You can read a preview in the book of Revelation of Jesus Christ.

          • TS (unami)

            It’s called “The Revelation to JOHN

            *sigh*
            Can’t even get the books of the bible right…

          • D.M.S.

            Sigh…. in my NKJV It’s called The Revelation to Jesus Christ.
            But in my NASB it’s called
            The Revelation to John.
            So we’re both right.

          • TS (unami)

            OK

          • D.M.S.

            Good night TS, I’m going to bed.
            I’m usually up before 7am ( CST )

          • TS (unami)

            I’ve got you beat — I have young children and couldn’t sleep past 6:00 if I wanted to 😉
            Have a good sleep. Maybe you’ll want to finish this talk another time…

          • D.M.S.

            I didn’t know going to sleep is a contest.

      • D.M.S.

        Remember that better place that you’re creating….lol.
        When you see all the ICBM’s flying over you and landing, just before your eyes burn out of there sockets before your body hits the ground.

        • Chuck Johnson

          You have fallen prey to a death cult.

          • D.M.S.

            Yes you have, chuck.

          • D.M.S.

            We all have. The world that’s run by Satan.

        • TS (unami)

          What are you smoking?!?!

          • D.M.S.

            I guess by that remark you haven’t read the book of Revelation of Jesus Christ.

          • TS (unami)

            I guess by *your* remark above that you haven’t read the REST of the bible.

          • D.M.S.

            What part would you like to discuss?

          • TS (unami)

            Why don’t you read the four Gospels and come back later.

          • D.M.S.

            I have 3 reference bibles and a Mathew Henry Commentary bible. Ask away?

          • D.M.S.

            Oh and by that remark about ( ICBM’s ) this world as you and I know it ends.

    • Jon Xavier, someday you will regret (and hopefully repent of) these words, as you hear them shouted from the rooftops, and you see LGBTQ persons getting into the Kingdom of Heaven before you. But fear not. Since we liberals and progressives understand grace, love, and forgiveness, we will hold the door open for you and welcome you in.

    • Melody Richardson

      Reported for hate speech.

      • Mojo

        That is ironic, considering that hate speech is all that comes out of you.

  • Jon Xavier

    “I’m delighted that liberal theologians do their best to do what Pio Nono said shouldn’t be done – try to accommodate Christianity to modern science, modern culture, and democratic society. If I were a fundamentalist Christian, I’d be appalled by the wishy-washiness of [the liberal] version of the Christian faith. But since I am a non-believer who is frightened of the barbarity of many fundamentalist Christians (e.g. their homophobia), I welcome theological liberalism. Maybe liberal theologians will eventually produce a version of Christianity so wishy-washy that nobody will be interested in being a Christian anymore. If so, something will have been lost, but probably more will have been gained.”

    • Hmm…some liberal Christians may turn their interpretation of Christianity into something wishy-washy.

      HOWEVER, there are many other liberal Christian leaders who because of their very liberalism will continue to be at the forefront of human progress in human rights, justice, and equality.
      Christian liberals led the Civil Rights Movement (for example, Bayard Rustin), participated in anti-war and anti-nuclear weapons movements, helped start famous organizations such as Amnesty International, Habitat for Humanity, etc.

      • D.M.S.

        Please, Do get rid of our nuclear weapons in the USA.
        Then Russia and China can overthrow the USA as soon as possible.
        If you think that they are going sit by an watch this country become ‘ docile ‘ and do nothing afterwards.
        The entire progressive movement are “ NUTS “.

        • Read Hiroshima by John Hersey. Intentionally killing hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians including thousands of infants, children, the elderly, firefighters, doctors, patients, etc. is the worst form of evil. I’ve lived in the Middle East where all sides believe in killing civilians. I don’t. Also Read Among the Dead Cities.

          • D.M.S.

            It doesn’t matter. Our future in the USA depends on us having those nuclear weapons as a deterrent against oppression of another country and or countries.
            They will with ‘ DEADLY ‘ force take over the USA, is we rid ourselves of those weapons.
            And the progressives in the USA will be to blame for such action.

          • Defensive war is understandable. Intentionally threatening and killing civilians for one’s nation isn’t.
            Many leaders from generals such as Dwight D. Eisenhower to thinkers such as C.S. Lewis opposed the killing of civilians. Lewis, though supportive of defensive war, emphasized that any military individuals who were ordered to bomb cities ought to refuse.

            As Dostoevsky’s character so well pointed out in The Brothers Karamazov, even the slaughter of ONE child in order to save the human species isn’t worth it.

            We shouldn’t believe in survival of the fittest but in pro-life moral realism–support for the unborn, support for the impoverished, support for the oppressed, support for the persecuted.

            If killing the innocent is necessary for a nation to survive, then the nation doesn’t deserve to exist.

            Bombing civilians is group egotism and very opposite the ethical views of many moral leaders.

          • D.M.S.

            Please show me the morals of China, Russia, Iran, Iraq, North Korea.
            They don’t have any.
            If the USA gets rid of all of its power.
            The Rats of the world will come to feast on our flesh.
            Have you forgotten the past conquerors of hundreds of years past.
            They’re still here, but dormant and waiting to pounce on anyone as soon as they can.

          • ? Huh? As a teacher I am well aware of the horrors of Russian, China, North Korea–leaders of dialectical materialism who murdered at least 60 to 70 million humans! One of the reasons they could do so and laugh when millions were dying like Lennn did is because they believed that humans have no inherent worth. Like Trotsky wrote, “As for us, we were never concerned with the Kantian-priestly and vegetarian-Quaker prattle about the “sacredness of human life….The Red Terror is a weapon utilized against a class, doomed to destruction, which does not wish to perish.”

            Ditto for Iran and Iraq, and add Pakistan and Saudi Arabia–where they execute individuals for believing in a different God or for free speech, etc.

            I wrote nothing about anyone including the USA getting “rid of all its power.” On the contrary, somewhat civilized nations, those who think all humans have inherent worth,
            need to police dangerous regimes and defend the oppressed, but that doesn’t happen by bombing civilians. Those many hundreds of thousands of civilians in enemy nations, (many who don’t approve of the dictators running their countries) are of as much worth and value as my own kids.

            I’ve not forgotten rulers of the past, have finished a long biography on Napoleon, biographies on Civil War leaders, Oliver Cromwell, etc.

            Good and evil aren’t separated by nations, but rather as the theistic Russian novelist Aleksandr Sozhenitsyn wrote,
            “If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them.
            But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being.”
            ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago 1918–1956

            That’s why Martin Luther King Jr. and many other spiritual leaders emphasize that we need to have benevolence even for our enemies–not that we don’t resist evil actions, but that we hope to help our enemies come to the realization that harming others is wrong.

            I lived and worked for a while in Palestine-Israel. I knew Jews, Muslims, Christians. All of the individuals and families I knew were nice, friendly, EXCEPT when it came to the opposite side; then they often demonized them and killed them:-(
            I lived only about 1 1/2 kilometers from one such attack. Soldiers of one side ran into an apartment complex and gunned down civilians.

            The only hope for humans is if we learn from thinkers such as Jesus, John Woolman, Solzhenitsyn, etc.

          • D.M.S.

            You mean like those civilians who had bombs attached to themselves in Vietnam and other conflicts.
            You don’t really live in the real world do you?
            Civilians and children are used as pawns all the time to take advantage of a soldier or an officials emotions. So they can kill them.
            That’s a hard fact of war that no likes, except the oppressors.

          • #1 I know that some of the Viet Cong were ruthless killers, not only the ones who attached bombs, but the one who hacked off children’s arms because American medics had vaccinated them! And I’ve read the biography of Ho Chi Minh, know about his terrible actions.
            And several of my friends served in Vietnam–I know their stories, about what a wrong debacle that war was.
            And I’ve read the facts about the Vietnam War–how the U.S. after WW11 tried to reestablish France’s colonial ownership of Vietnam, how we, the U.S. engaged in horrific wrongs, etc.

            As the old saying goes, two wrongs don’t make a right.

            The fact that dictators use civilians as pawns (which is true) doesn’t mean that the U.S. should do the same thing!

          • D.M.S.

            The U.S. will and probably already have used many as pawns.
            Whether it be a people or a country.

          • Phil

            I think you are confusing the morals of the general populace and the morals of the people that are in power. Bit like the USA in fact. So don’t demonize whole populations on the actions of leaders.

          • D.M.S.

            It’s quite rare that governments like the ones I stated get overthrown.
            The USA is being overthrown from within, as parts of Europe already have been.

          • D.M.S.

            I’m not confusing anything.
            We live in a lost and fallen world and it’s only going to get worse.

          • Phil

            Why is it lost? Where did if fall from? Do you understand gravity? We live in the best times ever. Fewer conflicts, less terrorism, higher life expectancy, less poverty, less infant mortality. Despite the efforts of the likes of Trump and religions, things are getting better.

          • D.M.S.

            Gravity has nothing to do with this lost world.
            The world is lost to wickedness.

          • TS (unami)

            Whelp, build a rocket and go find another one, quick… you hate it here, obviously.

          • TS (unami)

            And you seem to relish every minute of it…

          • D.M.S.

            What happens near the end of our world now.
            Christ Jesus returns to stop the annihilation of civilization.
            Yes I ‘ RELISH ‘ HIS Return!

          • TS (unami)

            No, you appear to “RELISH” the harm projected onto OTHER PEOPLE.

          • D.M.S.

            By what scripture states they do that all by themselves.
            I relish the Return of our Lord Christ Jesus.
            What true Christian doesn’t?

          • TS (unami)

            No, your words indicate a desire to see other people being hurt and watching the world burn.
            How disturbingly narcissistic that thought is.

        • TS (unami)

          There you go, confusing your GOP Politics with Religion again…

          • D.M.S.

            Do you really believe that Russia and China will do nothing to the USA, when we rid ourselves of nuclear weapons?
            If you do you’re living in
            la-la land of the looney, you’ve lost your mind, you’re gone.

    • Reese

      Jon, I can agree with you on the “non-believer” pew, but only in regards to churches. Between child molesting clergy and convoluted liberal logic on morality, it is for me to condemn the messengers, but not the message. I could not ever understand how anyone could look at the world’s humans, essentially made the same with the same operational and reproductive characteristics from every corner of the globe and not believe that there is an incomprensible force working from a grand plan is beyond me. Or, that millions of stars and their round planets are in perpetual orbit by random explosion requires a faith much stronger than mine — faith that things just happen. Your faith even defys Murphy’s Laws and, becuase I am Irish, I happen to know Murphy

      • Phil

        That is the result of a lack of education and relying on 2,000 old myths for your knowledge.

        • D.M.S.

          Praise the Lord for of His truth.

          • JD

            You just admitted that ignorance is truth.

  • How can people who claim to be tolerant spew such venom and hate against others who disagree about the morality of homosexuality? “Progressives” are the most hate filled people I have ever encountered

    • D.M.S.

      There is absolutely nothing
      “ moral “ about homosexuality.

      • Agreed.. And that doesn’t mean we hate anyone.

        • JD

          Nah. You just hate the fact that their born gay.

      • TS (unami)

        There is absolutely nothing “moral” about Heterosexuality or any orientation for that matter. Orientation is innate, whether you like it or not.

        • D.M.S.

          That’s your own ‘ LIE ‘ you’re welcome to tell it anyway that you like.

      • Bria Lapoint

        there is nothing moral about telling people they will go to hell if they dont believe in Jesus.

    • Melody Richardson

      Because you hate people based on their sexual orientation, which is immutable. You choose to be homophobic.

      • I’m not the one vomiting hate. This site is. And no sexual orientation is mutable. The best science proves that no one is born homosexual.

        • Melody

          You know nothing about science, bigot.

          • Scientists tried through the 1990s to prove people are born homosexual in dozens of peer reviewed journals and all failed miserably. Atlantic magazine had a summary article if you want to search for it.

          • Melody

            You are a special kind of stupid. I wouldn’t expect you to understand anything that Fox News hasn’t told you.

          • D.M.S.

            The Bible states that they’re not born that way.
            I believe God/Jesus over fox news any day of the week.

          • JD

            You also believe bats are birds because you believe the ‘bible sez so’. So…

          • Mr. G.

            Can you offer us a chapter/verse citation of where the Bible says what you claim?

          • D.M.S.

            Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13.
            And remember God doesn’t change.

          • Mr. G.

            Nothing in those verses says that some people aren’t born homosexual. Why the dishonesty? For that matter, there wasn’t even a word for homosexuality in any language on the planet until that late 19th century. It didn’t appear in English translations of the Bible until 1946.

          • D.M.S.

            For centuries it stated sexually immoral. Our sick degenerate world decided to change what sexually immoral consist of.
            “ It’s obvious that you don’t understand the scripture that you’re reading “
            When you believe that God/Jesus would create such a despicable kind of human being that’s lgbtq.

          • Mr. G.

            This will likely fly right over your head: I wonder if it will ever occur to you that God/Jesus does not see LGBTQ people as “despicable”. i.e. God/Jesus loves LGBTQ people, God/Jesus loves me, and God/Jesus even loves you.

          • D.M.S.

            This will probably go right over your head. But everyone including the lgbtq is “ Despicable “ to God/Jesus that engage in any sexual activity other than the marriage of one woman married to one man only that is sanctioned by God/Jesus.

          • Mr. G.

            Other than your own interpretation of what you read in the Bible, what evidence can you offer that “the marriage of one woman married to one man” is the only sexual activity sanctioned by God/Jesus?

          • D.M.S.

            If you can’t see the truth of Marriage by God/Jesus in scripture there’s nothing I can state that will change your mind to the truth of scripture.
            Genesis 2:24.
            For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh
            Mathew 19:4-6.
            4. And Jesus answered and said, Have you not read that He that created them from the beginning made them MALE and FEMALE.
            5. and said; for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
            6. So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore GOD has joined together let no man separate.
            Mark 10:5-9. Read for yourself.
            Ephesians 5:31.
            For THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.
            ( Sorry for all the caps but that’s how it was presented in my bible).

          • Mr. G.

            Given that a number of folks that God is not alleged to have taken any issue with over their sexual proclivities had numerous wives, concubines, and slaves after that Genesis verse was written by some Jewish guy (i.e. not God or Jesus), that blows up your “one man/one woman” notion completely.

            What Jesus said according to your Matt citation is part of his response to a man asking if it’s OK to divorce his wife. Trying to stretch that into anything akin to “definition of marriage” to the exclusion of all others is quite a stretch. One could call that a matter of attempting to add to the scripture. In a word, “LAME”.

          • D.M.S.

            How do you know what God/Jesus did to their souls after their human deaths?

          • Mr. G.

            Based on my own experience, I’d guess that they had a talk about any area(s) where there was disagreement (if any). From there on, they either saw God’s point and chose to continue in His presence or choose to continue to disagree and left. {shrug}

          • TS (unami)

            He ignores biblical polygamy…

            Don’t waste your time on this guy…

          • Mr. G.

            He ignores everything but his own misguided biases. I can barely wait to see the details of the sin he accuses me of wanting to continue.

          • TS (unami)

            Have fun. I can’t stand him anymore, tbh…

          • Mr. G.

            Can’t say as I blame you. He’s an agent of the one who opposes Jesus.

          • Mr. G.

            The vile garbage that you and those of like mind spew day after day has driven many millions of people – LGBTQ and straight alike – AWAY from God. That’s the fruit of what you spew. THINK about it! Who wants to convince people that God thinks they’re “despicable”? HINT: that’t not God/Jesus.
            In the name of Jesus, I rebuke your false teachings! They are NOT of God/Jesus!

          • D.M.S.

            “ That all that you see “.
            You don’t see the ‘ lgbtq ‘ Sins.
            “ ALL OF US “are despicable before God/Jesus that engage in any sexual relations outside of heterosexual marriage of one woman married to one man only.
            That includes heterosexuals!
            We are’ ALL LOVED ‘ by
            God/Jesus.

          • Mr. G.

            What evidence other than your own interpretation of the Bible do you have to offer in support of your claim that ““ ALL OF US “are despicable before God/Jesus that engage in any sexual relations outside of heterosexual marriage of one woman married to one man only.”?

          • D.M.S.

            My 4 Bibles are my only evidence and that’s the only evidence under God/Jesus that we need.

          • Mr. G.

            Neither God nor Jesus wrote anything in any of your Bibles. The Bible is nothing more than a collection of texts describing what two ancient cultures thought about God and how they related to the God they believed in.

          • D.M.S.

            Our NASB,NIV, ESV, Hebrew Bibles are the inerrant word(s) of God/Jesus.
            You’re a sinner that wants to keep sinning.
            God/Jesus condemns all sexual activity outside of heterosexual marriage.
            I hope someday soon that you realize Christ Jesus is Our only Savior.
            Goodbye and Peace.

          • Mr. G.

            Your beliefs about your Bibles proves absolutely nothing about God/Jesus’ view of anything.
            What sin are you accusing me of wanting to continue?

          • Mr. G.

            I find it interesting that you say “God doesn’t change” after citing verses written by Hebrew clerics. Pretty much the entire book of Leviticus was about purging any and all things related to pagan / idol worshiping religions from their culture. The original language texts of those verse use words referring to prostitution – clearly taking a whack at the pagan custom of utilizing temple prostitutes in the course of religious rites of idol worship.

          • D.M.S.

            God/Jesus doesn’t change and it’s stated in scripture many times.
            Only those reading scripture who are guided by the HolySpirit will understand the scripture that they’re reading.
            If you see any contradiction in scripture then you’re not being lead to the right conclusion of scripture from the HolySpirit.

          • Mr. G.

            So the words in the Bible don’t really mean what they say? And you claim that this “HolySpirit” in your head tells you what they actually mean – meanings that, wonder of wonders, somehow confirm your own biases?

          • Explain to me why the only responses from “progressives” are lame insults.

        • TS (unami)

          Not immutable, eh?
          When did you “choose” to become Heterosexual, again?

          • D.M.S.

            He didn’t. You were also created heterosexual, just like scripture states.

        • JD
          • I don’t want to free my mind from truth and science.

          • JD

            Then free your from ancient paranoid and highly superstitious mythologies.

          • I have. As I wrote, I follow truth discovered through reason and science.

          • JD

            Except when that science hoes against your mythology, yes?

    • TS (unami)

      How can people who claim to love God and the One who *commanded them* to love their neighbor (yes, *even* their gay neighbor) spew such venom and hate against others who have done them NO wrong? “Fundamentalists” are the most hate-filled people I have ever encountered.

      FTFY

      • Your being dishonest. No fundamentalist hates homosexual. Their lifestyle is harmful to them so love dictates that we war them.

        • JD

          Kinda like the Christchurch shooter, eh?

          • Sorry! Major typo on my part. That should be “warn” them.

          • JD

            Warn them of what exactly?

      • D.M.S.

        We are loving our neighbor when we warn them of the danger they are in against God/Jesus upon the choices they make to live by.

  • Bria Lapoint

    Good for you! but the more negative news points out christians are trying to get converts, the more i shy away from the blatant attempts to get people in the pews.

  • Breannen Shim

    The statement ” the Church is not a safe place to be” gives me shivers because it can be frighteningly real for LGBTQ Christians like me. For me the process of coming out while staying committed to my faith has felt like stepping out of safety and into danger time and time again.

    Before I came out, I was terrified of being exposed and ostracized by my community. When I finally had to come out, I pushed all of my Christian friends away because I was so afraid they would reject me and think I was disgusting. Every time I’ve walked into a church since coming out, I’ve felt the fear of rejection and when I’ve been openly and explicitly accepted, I’ve felt so relieved.

    The first church I ever went to that accepted me was a Methodist church. I felt relatively safe in Methodist churches ( I knew there was debate, but I had too much faith that love would win out in this case). Now I feel rejected and afraid again. This has hit me hard.

    And some of you claim this treatment is what love looks like. “Love” like yours has left me traumatized and isolated and unable to trust those who should be my own brothers and sisters in Christ.