UPDATED: Traditionalists’ “expert” on Pope Francis is a Holocaust denier

[UPDATE, 4/9/13: I just learned that the eve I posted this was the beginning of Holocaust Remembrance Day. Had I known that, I would have added an extra prayer request for survivors and their families.]

Remember just after the papal election when Father Z and Taylor Marshall were rightly incensed by the broadside against Pope Francis published by Rorate Caeli?

The traditionalist blog had repeated a vicious smear against Pope Francis by Argentinean blogger, Marcelo Gonzalez, who called Francis a “sworn enemy of the Traditional Mass.” Unfortunately, the claim was quickly given wide circulation by Inside the Vatican‘s Robert Moynihan, who labeled our new Holy Father “hostile” toward the Traditional Mass.

When Father Z and others found evidence that the claim was in fact a bald-faced lie, Rorate Caeli responded with a string of defensive posts, while Moynihan issued a non-apology, saying he reprinted Gonzalez’s claims because he thought the reporter “reliable.”

And who is this “reliable” reporter?

Being that I am a Jewish convert to Catholicism who attends Mass in the Extraordinary Form (the traditional Latin Mass), and am all too familiar with the antisemitism that Father Angelo Mary Geiger calls the “soft white underbelly of the Rad Trad movement,” I had a bad feeling about Gonzalez. Pope Francis was known in Buenos Aires as a friend to the Jewish community, even co-writing a book with a leading rabbi of the city, and I sadly wouldn’t put it past certain trads to harbor special resentment for him on that account. So, on a hunch, I looked to see what (if anything) Gonzalez had to say about Jews and the Holocaust.

It wasn’t hard to find.

Five months ago, Marcelo Gonzalez announced he had reached the “fixed position” that the “so-called ‘holocaust’” is a media exaggeration. If Google’s translation is correct, he wrote that he prefers to call it “the so-called ‘holocaust’” or, alternatively, the “hollowcaust.”  You can read for yourself his blog entry “Holocaust and Hollowcaust” via Google Translate (or read it here in the original Spanish). It’s disgusting, and as a fellow member of the Mystical Body, I am ashamed.

Moral of the story: Don’t get your “reliable” information about the Pope from a blog that venerates the Society of St. Pius X.

If you would like to join me in praying in reparation for fellow Catholics who libel the Holy Father and who malign the Jewish people, here are some suggested prayers.

UPDATE: A Rorate Caeli blogger has informed me that the blog intends to publish a response taking aim at my using Google Translate. I responded, “If an accurate translation shows that Marcelo Gonzalez was not questioning that approximately six milion Jews were systematically exterminated by Nazis, then I will issue a full apology. There were enough Holocaust-denying statements in the Google Translate version of his post that I am reasonably confident that, should one prove to be mistranslated, there are others that were accurately translated.”

I invite a commenter with knowledge of Spanish to attempt a more accurate translation of Gonzalez’s post and leave it in the comments below. Thank you and God bless.

UPDATE #2: Rorate Caeli’s response is up. Their spies apparently tell them that I have been “occasionally attending the traditional Latin Mass in the Washington, D.C. area” (emphasis mine). I think that translates to “Not a Real Catholic [TM].” Interestingly they are not disputing the accuracy of Google’s translation of Gonzalez’s post; my pointing out that their “cherished friend” is a Holocaust denier is simply a “non sequitur.”

UPDATE #3: Rorate Caeli commenters have shown their true colors with viciously antisemitic comments to this post. I have allowed some to appear in the comments section here for the record, but the more vicious ones I have forwarded to other concerned bloggers, as I am occupied with schoolwork and do not wish to continue to engage the soft white underbelly of the rad-trad world. You may look for them on Mary Victrix, the blog of Father Angelo Mary Geiger, F.I., who has already written about this post.

UPDATE #4, 4/9/13: Closing comments so that I can get some schoolwork done today and not have to sift through hateful words against my Jewish ancestors and relatives and against those who think the Church has, in fact, continued past 1965. Many more viciously antisemitic comments have come in. I am sending the rest to Mark Shea, who has told me he will have something to say on the matter—oh, I see he just put up a post.

Thanks to the relatively few lovers of the Extraordinary Form who have written with their support. [As of 4/10/13, many more have written. Thank you!] To those who love the traditional Mass and have not commented: If you don’t want the Extraordinary Form community to be dismissed as a bunch of hate-filled, antisemitic cranks, you need to raise your voice in the public square, and not be afraid of what the veils-and-brocade police say about you.

UPDATE #5, 4/10/13:  Gonzalez has issued a “clarification,” and has appended an English translation to his original article.

When I have time (which may not be for a while, owing to school responsibilities), I will post more thoughts on the matter. Here is my initial reaction to the “clarification”:

Gonzalez says in his non-apology apology, “For this reason, I clarify, or rather I reiterate that I am convinced that the Holocaust (that is, the death of millions of Jews in concentration camps or on their way to them during the Second World War) is a fact of uncontested historicity. Other aspects – of which I cannot speak, because I am no historian – remain in the academic sphere.”

Note what he is not saying–that there was a systematic, state-sponsored plan of extermination. In his article, he in fact denies such a plan, offers other reasons why Jews died, and claims that one who accepts that there was a Holocaust “may incur in an historical error of judgment.”

So he is a Holocaust denier–because the Holocaust was nothing if not “a program of systematic state-sponsored murder” of Jews, to use Wikipedia’s current and very apt wording. It is true that the Nazis also targeted millions of others for extermination because of their race, Catholic or Orthodox religion, disability, homosexual behavior, or political affiliation, and it may be legitimately argued that the killing of these populations should be included in the term “Holocaust.” But to cast doubt in any way upon the Nazis’ systematically murdering Jews is outrageous.

RECOMMENDED READING: Jeannette Pryor, a mother of five, writes about the toxic education she received as a nun in the SSPX.

  • Pingback: Dawn Eden Discovers Something Important About Pope Francis’s #1 Detractor…

  • aly

    I’m a Society of Pope Saint Pius X er. Ms. Eden certainly has the right to her opinion but is quite supercilious in her Moral of the Story. I doubt she’s a theologian.

    • Dawn Eden

      I don’t normally approve ad hominems but thought this comment was worthy of an exception.

      • Joseph Mazzara

        I’m not a radtrad by any stretch of the imagination, but to be fair to Rorate-Caeli when they say “non-sequitor”, let’s pretend the holocaust-denier said “Pope Francis doesn’t wear red shoes,” just because he denies the holocaust doesn’t make that assertion false. Similarly, while being a holocaust denier might give him motive for claiming something false, or “spinning” the truth, it does appear to be independently verified that he was not doing so insofar as the fact of the situation of the TLM in Buenos Aires is concerned. Obviously any commentary such as “AHHH, Pope Francis hates tradition, Latin, and your grandfather’s liturgy” should be ignored and understood within the context of the priest’s or individual’s bias.

        • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin

          I think it’s more you really should pay attention to the sources you cite. At Rorate, they first had to point out their “source” was wrong when he said Francis did “NOTHING” about gay marriage. Then there was the whole “sworn enemy” schtick. It’s pretty easy to say that yes, Francis should’ve done a ton more for the Latin Mass, but no, he wasn’t a “sword enemy.” If they’ve got names of priests and real evidence of people persecuted, let’s hear em.

          The only source they’ve got is someone who makes wild claims. It’s more unless Rorate can come up with actual sources who are credible, then yes, take em with a grain of salt. It doesn’t matter that they aren’t holocaust deniers. Citing a holocaust denier they themselves admit was full of it when he claimed Francis did nothing about gay marriage.

    • http://www.godandthemachine.com Thomas L. McDonald

      I don’t know Dawn Eden beyond her being my neighbor here on Patheos, but I’m pretty sure she IS a theologian: http://dawneden.blogspot.com/2010/06/papists-pick.html. Snap!

  • http://johnmallon.net John Mallon

    Dawn, Dear, I’m delighted that you have entered the fullness of faith. But it pains me to tell you, a relative newcomer, that there are a lot of jerks in the Church (Or in the case of SSPX one foot in and one foot out of the Church.) I use the term “Jerks” rather that the term that describes an anatomical orifice on the human backside because this is a Catholic site, and I don’t want the to offend those weak in faith who are easily scandalized. You simply must recognize there are Catholics who have priorities higher than the command to love our neighbor. I’m sorry you experienced this and I share your pain and exasperation. God love you.

  • Marye

    But weren’t we promised by supporters of the SSPX that Richard Williamson was an “isolated case,” and the only Holocaust denier in that organization’s ranks? Ha . . . If it turns out to be true that then-Cardinal Bergoglio was lukewarm in his support of the Traditional Mass in Argentina,this may have been part of the reason.

  • http://twitter.com/MrsKrishan Clare Krishan

    Deus caritas est. (BXVI) The opposite of love is not hate it is “use” or “indifference” of human persons. (JPII, paraphrased)
    Certain obsessive-compulsive hyperdoulia-types have fallen for the deceiver’s temptation to immenentize the eschaton by looking for the AntiChrist in all the wrong places. He’s right at home in their hearts, “using” the lives of the victims of secular history for their own misguided ends and “indifferent” to the scandal caused among the faithful in the present day (and all lost souls we encounter in the future, with whom we wish to share the good news of our Redeemer — the Messiah they claim to be promoting in the name of Mother Church but whom they are actually crudely assaulting, as if spitting in the face of the Virgin of Luhan herself) .
    IMHO some of these obsessive-compulsive traits in the Paleo-conservative movement (and their left-wing Liberation theology confreres) who like to blame a certain class of persons “the bankers” for the ills wrought by our crony-capitalist-or-socialist-Statist enablers) can be associated with political strategies that seek a scapegoat for the financial humiliation suffered by Argentina’s economy in recent decades (sadly the USA’s continued active meddling in the currency wars has intensified this false argument rather than defanged it, for those interested in a Roman Catholic defense of sound money, read Spaniard Jesus Huerta de Soto’s “Money, Bank Credit, and Economic Cycles” to see how the law on demand deposits has been usurped to favor the institution fractionally reserving the property entrusted to them, not the depositor. A shorter book that covers the same legal – moral ground is The Ethics of Money Production by a German Professor at a French university Jörg Guido Hülsmann who presented “General Overview of the Magnitude of the Crisis: A Comment” at the The Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences conference on global financial crisis published in the proceedings at page 95 (http://www.vatican.edu/roman_curia/pontifical_academies/acdsoc/documents/newpdf/actapass16.pdf#page=94).

    [unrelated stuff edited out - Dawn]

    As Dawn suggested pray, pray, pray.
    For the evil one prowls seeking our ruin and can entrap the proudest among us in his divisive wiles if we let him.

  • http://www.sufferingwithjoy.com/blog/ Barb Schoeneberger

    Thank you for this post. I attend the Extraordinary Form almost exclusively and share your observations about some of my fellow travelers. Remember that Bishop Williamson was rector of the SSPX seminary in Winona, Minnesota for years. When things got too hot for him up there for some reason I can’t now remember, the SSPX moved him to be the rector of their seminary in Argentina. A priest formerly of the SSPX who has come over to the FSSP and who was trained by Williamson spreads his virulent anti-Semitism wherever he goes. It is not uncommon to hear him say, “All Jews are going to hell.” He adds Protestants to that, too. In addition, Williamson says that women should not be allowed to vote, should not be allowed higher education, and other such craziness. That misogyny is fully believed by this priest and it affects his ability to give proper spiritual direction to marital couples having trouble. The priest is quite open in saying that he believes all that he learned from Williamson. There are many SSPX-ers in Argentina who are likely taught by priests formed by Williamson.

    I would not say that anti-Semitism is the soft underbelly of Catholics in what I term “The Ecclesia Dei Movement.” Nor misogyny. Our consistent message as lovers of the EF has to be that we are not “ists” of anything, we are Catholic. That means that we have to know Church teaching, not some bishop’s teaching at variance with what the Church teaches. But we are all sinners and unfortunately, some big loudmouths who are given press space in print and on the internet can lead to the impression that all of us attached to the EF are all bitter, sniping, vicious back biters. We have to remember that we follow Jesus, not Williamson or any other bishop. And we also have to remember charity above all.

    One last thing. I, personally, am really, really, really sick of the SSPX politics and the mental games they play to justify their refusal of the offer of regularization. Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia.

  • Zig

    Why are you claiming that Rorate lied about Pope Francis and the MP. It was established that they were indeed correct and Fr. Finigan even admitted he was wrong: http://the-hermeneutic-of-continuity.blogspot.com/2013/03/an-apology-to-rorate-caeli-and.html Moreover blogs from South America have reported diocesean repression of the TLM(see the links in the post): http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/03/how-summorum-pontificum-was-blocked-and.html

  • http://marvitctrix.com frangelo

    The problem in the SSPX is not just Bishop Williamson. In December, Bishop Fellay said Vatican II was a not a Council of the Church but one of the Jews, Masons and Modernists. In its literature the SSPX draws a hard line between prejudice against Jews because of their race and that against their religion, and excuses their conspiracy theories on that basis. BTW, Michael Voris takes the same line. Antisemitism has been a problem among traditionalists for a long time and it goes largely unchecked from within.

    Dawn has been pretty charitable in this regard–more than I am inclined to be. Those attached to the EF need to clean house, so that others don’t have to do it for them. And yes, this is indeed one of the reasons there many bishops who want nothing to do with EF. There is a whole political and social side to traditionalism that needs to be purged once for all.

    • dcs

      I would charitably suggest that those who think that the EF needs to “clean house” look to their own houses first. There are also many dissenting, heretodox, or other fringe Catholics who assist at only the ordinary form.

    • Phil

      Frangelo,
      Purging or “cleaning house,” as you say, the social and political side of traditionalism would be just as easy as purging the social and political side of the vernacular form, that is, not easy at all. There are thousands of very holy and practicing Catholics who support the Extraordinary Form. If there was a purge to be done, why would it stop with the traditionalists? And if the purge was being performed, wouldn’t that destroy the charity of those doing the purging? A true purging can only happen through Love, prayer, sacrifice, penance, and a whole lot of good example. How did Saint John Mary Vianney purge his parish? Through love, sacrifice, penance, lots of prayer, and wonderful example. The kind of purging you speak of will do no one any good, it will only make possible the ability to act out hatred and lack of love for their neighbors from the ones doing the purging. If you want to purge, start with your own family. Live an extraordinary life, Love extraordinarily, be an extraordinary example and in these ways you will lead others to do the same and the purging will be inevitable.

      • http://marvitctrix.com frangelo

        Perhaps the word “purge” is to easily misunderstood. My comment spoke of the political and social aspects that need to be changed. I was not talking about shunning people. The problem needs to be first of all acknowledged frankly.

        • Chris Landreneau

          All I know is that Christ redeems and sanctifies. Only by allowing Christ to work His miracles in our hearts & our minds to heal us of our petty prejudices, dislikes, gossip, character assassinations, historical facts revisions, will we ever have authentic unity.

    • http://www.blogtalkradio.com/forwardboldly Christine Niles

      Fr. Angelo Geiger,
      It is absolutely false to claim that Michael Voris denies the Holocaust or is even the slightest bit anti-Semitic. This piece of slander is unworthy of any Catholic, much less a Catholic priest. I ask that you retract your statement and apologize. Nowhere will you find anything that he has ever said or done that has denigrated the Jewish people. I can vouch for this, as someone who knows him and some of his closest friends personally, that to make such a claim is false.

      Perhaps you received this impression from an unfortunate smear piece by Mark Shea that accused Michael of anti-semitism through a guilt-by-association tactic involving E. Michael Jones that was so full of falsehoods and inaccuracies that I felt the need–as a lawyer–to contact the editors of Patheos to inform them that Shea’s piece qualified for legal defamation. Shea finally revised his piece–but it still remains misleading, and is in my eyes nothing more than an attempt to destroy the reputation of his brother in Christ based on no foundation whatsoever–and, judging by the fact that you would believe and repeat this falsehood, Father, his aim has achieved some measure of success. All I will say is this: one day Shea will have to answer to God for his calumny. And those who would willingly repeat this falsehood, which has no basis, will have to do the same.
      God bless,
      Christine Niles

      • http://marvitctrix.com frangelo

        As I said, Voris does hold that antisemitism is hatred of the race, not the religion.
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY1GG0dyU9Y

        • Mark Shea

          Crickets where the sound of Christine’s voice was once heard making excuses for Voris’ embarrassing remarks.

        • http://grigaitis.net Russell Grigaitis

          Voris also said:
          “In Canada the bishops essentially declared war on the Vatican and Paul VI, denouncing Humanae Vitae. Listen to that. The bishops of Canada said, ‘You are wrong Holy Father, and if Catholics want to practice contraception then WE say it’s OK. Catholics are not obliged to follow it.’”
          http://grigaitis.net/blog/2010/11/follow-up-to-realcatholictv-com/
          This make’s Voris’ opinions somewhat suspect.

          • http://www.blogtalkradio.com/forwardboldly Christine Niles

            Russell,
            Voris is quoting what the Canadian bishops were saying. He was not encouraging people to repudiate Humanae Vitae. This is obvious from anyone even remotely familiar with his work, which has roundly praised Humanae Vitae and promoted complete and total obedience to its teachings.

        • http://www.blogtalkradio.com/forwardboldly Christine Niles

          Fr. Geiger,
          You have slandered Michael Voris by claiming that he is anti-semitic–and the only thing you can proffer is a video in which Voris (rightly) rejects dual covenant theology and upholds the Church’s doctrine on supersessionism.

          Exactly how is this a response? Exactly what is the controversy? Where is the so-called anti-semitism?

          It’s a shame, because I really like your website, and have heartily recommended it to others as a good resource to learn about authentic masculinity. There are excellent articles there that I have passed along to others.

          Authentic masculinity includes the strength to admit when we’ve been wrong and apologize. If you are a man and a priest worth your salt, you would retract your slander.
          Christine Niles

          • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin

            I think your missing the point. You don’t hate Jews as members of a race or a religion. I’d argue you especially don’t hate Jews based on religion. Why? Because, as Benedict put it, they are the “elder brother” of Christianity. Now did the elder brother go astray? Most certainly. Yet God still calls him home, and it is the tradition of the Church (really, the evidence is overwhelming on this point) that in the last days, the Jews will return home and acknowledge Christ.

            Outside of that process error (and a pretty big one at that), it isn’t that anything that Voris says is false. Nobody is denying that the Old Covenant cannot save. That’s the entire point of the Epistle to the Hebrews. Yes, Catholicism is the fullness of God’s revelation and the Covenant finds its fulfillment in the Catholic Church.

            Yet the Jews still exist as a people, and as a people, God still calls them in a certain way, He calls them towards that fullness of the covenant, individually and corporally. The tradition of the fathers teaches that this corporal call will find reach its fruition in the end times. Some (like Jerome) even predicted a mass apostasy amongst the Gentiles that would be stopped by the reutn of the Jews to the fullness of the Covenant.

            There’s a lot in there that isn’t part of Mr. Voris’ story, and that’s a shame. We need the full story, not the “dual covenant can save” stuff you hear from some, or the short story of Mr. Voris on the other.

          • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin

            Also a note:

            In the Old covenant, God commanded that Israel (The Jews) be friendly to Esau (The Edomites). even though they were following heathen customs, they were still brothers, and to treat them as such. You don’t hate the religion or the ethnicity.

            So if that was true then, isn’t that still the truth today with the current descendants of Abraham?

    • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin

      Fr. Angelo,

      How can loyal traditionalists “clean house?” As the SSPX are not in a regular situation of the Church, how is the nonsense they spew the fault of Catholics in communion with Rome? This wing of traditionalism is for the most part less than 5% of the movement, and anyone who spends time amongst actual traditionalists can tell you that, and also that the newer generations of traditionalists are improving by the day.

      You may say “well you need more public voices”, but you’ve got the likes of Fr. Z, Taylor Marshall, people in these comboxes, noted trad bloggers or just fellow travelers of traditionalists all saying “hey, this isn’t all of us.” You run a combox on your blog, you know how the internet is.

      Are there Anti-Semites who are traditionalists? Most certainly. Are they a serious minority? Most certainly. Look at the reaction when Pope benedict changed the Good Friday prayer for the Jews. See a huge uproar? Didn’t think so.

      So with all due respect, I think this is concern trolling. Unless you can really outline what conceivably traditionalists could do that the majority of them aren’t already doing. Bottom line: if your getting your examples of traditionalism from the internet, you’re doing it horribly wrong.

      • http://marvitctrix.com frangelo

        Kevin,

        Well, this is an opportunity for traditionalists to denounce the problem. I did not say it was everyone.

        I say the EF everyday for our sisters in Cornwall. I have been saying the EF since 1995 (not everyday). I know what goes on in the traditionalist movement from the inside. There is a serious problem and anytime anyone brings it up, this is what you get. And so the problem will go on unabated.

        I hope you are right that the younger generation of traditionalists are improving.

        • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin

          I think it’s a serious problem because it is done in such sweeping terms. And everytime more and more people denounce it, that part is never acknowledged, but the problems with the urine and vinegar crowd are acknowledged louder and louder.

          I understand you say it’s not everyone, I guess I just wish people when saying these things would acknowledge those sources which are doing right by things. We get the feeling that the goalposts keep getting moved back here. I think it is a serious problem on the internet yes.

          But as one who has been around a lot of traditionalist communities in the 11 years I’ve gone almost exclusively to the Extraordinary Form on Sundays (go to Ordinary Form for daily mass), I see the good and the bad, and know the bad is pretty small.

          Tried outlining my thought process a bit more in an email. I guess I’m just interested in what said house cleaning would look like.

    • Athanasius

      Wow Father, who isn’t an anti-Semite in your opinion? This is getting to be like a Seinfeld episode. They’re all anti-Semites Jerry!

  • Noe

    a little ironic that whether or not he has claimed denies 6 million JEWS died – the current discussion is how many MORE people were murdered and more widely occurred than the archetypal “6 million”, given recently published research. Not less. Christ is risen – and od Avinu Chai, AM Israel Chai.

  • michael

    Rorate Caeli just posted a wonderful article on Fr. Bergoglio and his holding the line against Marxism in forming a number of Jesuit seminarians in South America. Rorate Caeli is an excellent website that simply reports both the good and the bad of Pope Francis. Now, let’s be fair about things. The TLM allowed by Cardinal Bergoglio was truly an extraordinary form, with the lessons and Gospel taken from the Novus Ordo, as well as other various innovations. Traditional Catholics are suspicious of Pope Francis, as well as the last five popes who have been quite revolutionary in their teachings and actions. Msgr. Klaus Gamber, the great liturgist praised by Cardinal Ratzinger, clearly stated, that Pope Paul VI destroyed the Roman Rite, an act far more horrifying than would be the white-washing of the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel or the pulverizing of Michelangelo’s Pieta. And yet, his beatification is being strongly pushed. Assisi 1986 was truly scandalous causing many to wonder if Pope John Paul II had the Catholic Faith. I mean, to actively participate in non-Catholic worship is against the Divine Law remember. And putting Buddha statues on top of tabernacles, believe it or not, did cause a certain scandal. And yes, Pope Francis’ quasi disdain for the more monarchical elements of the papacy is worrying. His dispensing himself from liturgical norms is also disturbing causing good Catholic priests, who seek to be faithful to the rubrics each day, to feel deflated. If Pope Francis dispensed himself from Good Friday abstinence by having a juicy steak, would that have been a problem with you? In short, then, Traditional Catholics have a good case for being a little bit suspicious of the Vatican II and post-Vatican II popes.

    As a final note, you shoot the messenger without ever touching upon the message. Also, labeling Rad-Trads as being anti-Semitic is just a way of dismissing their important concerns. You laugh at the notion that all Jews are going to hell labeling it as being somehow unenlightened. Well, where are they going objectively speaking? Without the Faith, St. Paul states, one cannot please God. Do Jews have the true Faith? Of course not, rather they are in darkness with a veil over their eyes which will not be lifted until they accept the One Messiah and the Kingdom of the Catholic Church. If you do attend the Traditional Latin Mass, note that the sub-deacon’s holding of the paten before his eyes using a humeral veil is an image of the Faithless Jews who cannot see the Word made Flesh. But then again, I must be careful for you will probably start labeling the TLM as anti-Semitic. You could be like Pope Benedict who completely changed the Good Friday prayer for the Jews even though it went back to the 3rd century. O the Liturgical Revolution continues. St. Theresa of Jesus said that Lutherans were falling into hell like snowflakes. Was she somehow being judgmental? The great saints, be they missionary or contemplative were driven to save souls from falling into hell. For them, non Catholics were hell bound and this moved them to do something, namely, convert them to the only Faith that saves.

    • Mark Shea

      Also, labeling Rad-Trads as being anti-Semitic is just a way of dismissing their important concerns.

      No. You swallow the camel of spitting on the corpses of six million people while straining at the gnat of your silk and lace obsessions. Why any normal person should care for one second about the “important concerns” of somebody as morally obtuse as that is beyond me.

      [edited by siteowner]

      • Dawn Eden

        Mark, I just got home and saw this comment. I don’t like to edit you, but I have to because I don’t have the time to delete other people’s responding in kind to ad hominems.

        • William Meyer

          Thank you. It is nice to see that someone will rein in Mr. Shea. He so often resorts to ad hominems that it is beyond embarrassing.

          • Dawn Eden

            Mark is a friend and I love him. I am very thankful for the support he has shown me on his blog, now and in the past. The ad homs you mention are unfortunate, and when they turn up in my blog’s comboxes I have to act.

      • Stephen Spencer

        Mark Shea, you continue to claim that you are not rabid about those who attend the traditional Latin mass, but from time to time you post utterly intemperate remarks that have no place in a Catholic discussion. Your response to Micheal’s comment was totally irrational, and was totally at odds with the irenic approach taken by Vatican II and our last 3 Popes.

        • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin

          Mark gets hot blooded at times with anyone he disagrees with. It’s not that he can’t disagree in a civil nature with traditionalists after 5 minutes, Mark can’t disagree with anyone for a prolonged period of time without getting in a few chair shots. ;)

          And Mark, I mean that with the utmost affection.

  • Confused in California

    Dawn,

    It seems that Rorate is correct on the facts.

    It seems that your line of thinking here is
    I) the facts were made known to rorate by a person you don’t like.
    II) you don’t like other things that person has said
    III) therefore, you will believe the opposite of the facts unless someone else can make you feel differently about that person

    I get it. Some guy in Argentina is a jerk. But how does that affect the facts?

    • J.C.

      Agreed. The Argentinian dude may be unable to come to reasonable conclusions about what he reads second-hand (i.e., World War II-era history, the major themes of which meet with overwhelming consensus), but I don’t have any reason to doubt what he reports first-hand (i.e., his inability to go to a TLM in his own archdiocese, which has been confirmed by others and certainly not refuted in even a single detail).

      Catholics, please let’s don’t get into an argument with other Catholics over the new pope—it’s a big Church, and Pope Francis won’t please everyone every single day.

    • http://www.samueljhoward.us Samuel J. Howard

      It seems that your line of thinking here is
      I) the facts were made known to rorate by a person you don’t like.
      II) you don’t like other things that person has said
      III) therefore, you will believe the opposite of the facts unless someone else can make you feel differently about that person

      I get it. Some guy in Argentina is a jerk. But how does that affect the facts?

      There is the issue of the TLM in BA, about which Rorate appears to be correct. But there is also the issue of their soliciting and publishing the opinions (though distancing themselves from them) and endorsing (the man) who also puts forth this Holocaust denial. He may be right about the particular Mass, but he is made highly questionable regarding other issues of fact and interpretation. And it’s disturbing that Rorate calls him “cherished friend”.

      • AnneG

        I did a search in Spanish for Latin masses in BA Archdioceses and found a few. It was a very quick, easy search if you read Spanish. Not so easy was reading the article by Gonzalez. google translate seems pretty close as I read the article in Spanish. It is really bad. There is No historical question about the mass slaughter of Jews in Europe by the Nazi regime. They killed a lot of other people, too, including a lot of Catholics and priests. That is not in question at all. For him to say “holocuento” makes everything else he says suspect. I’ve heard stories like this to discredit others such as Pope John Paul II because of his open heart towards evangelizing everyone. Dawn, you are right.

    • Richard M

      Because a Holocaust denier is viewed as dubious enough that anything else he says is going to be viewed in a skeptical light.

      Even if he turns out to be correct about something. And it is true – as Fr. Finigan conceded – that the TLM offered by the archdiocese of Buenos Aires a couple days after Summorum Pontificum came into effect was something of a debacle – a strange hybrid Mass with numerous abuses, once a month, then discontinued when people inevitably stopped coming. That has to be acknowledged, at least, and it is disappointing. But was it malice, or ignorance? And if malice, was it Cdl. Bergoglio’s? Or someone else’s? The problem with the Rorate folks is that they automatically assumed the worst. They jumped out within minutes of his election with their speakers turned up to 11.

      And because of that, and because they seem to be relying heavily on an Argentine traditionalist who problematic views, fewer Catholics are likely to listen to them each time they actually make a valid point or provide accurate reportage, as they do seem to have done on the narrow question of the failed Buenos Aires TLM of 2007. As a traditionalist myself, I regret that.

  • http://levitersalsalis70.blogspot.com.au/ Peter Holmes

    For the record, Dawn Eden is a competent theologian. What amuses me about ‘Aly’s post is that he/she seems to think that being a theologian would somehow make Dawn more likely to support the Church’s position… on anything.

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  • http:://catholiclight.stblogs.org Richard C.

    This guy likes to use the strawman tactic, posturing to deny things that nobody claims. First he denies that the victims were only Jews (nobody claims that).

    Then he denies that the Axis cared about nothing but doing genocide (which nobody claims). He writes: “Y decir que todo lo actuado por el Eje fue un cruel plan de exterminio sistemático es tan inaceptable como afirmar que los internados en dichos lugares vivían en un campo de recreación.” (“To say that everything done by the Axis was a cruel plan of systematic extermination is as unacceptable as stating that the people interned in those places were living in a recreational camp.”)

    So he casts doubt on the Nazis’ intention of genocide, without directly denying it. It’s artful; and to think he complains about “propagandists”!

    His “fixed position” is as fixed as a weasel.

  • Confused in California

    Dawn,

    You update your post to point out that rorate correctly ignores your bait on the holocaust.

    Think this through– you’ve slipped into emotivism and guilt-by-association. Is rorate correct on the facts? Does your dislike of person X change the facts?

    • AnneG

      Is Rorate correct on facts? NO
      Not since the first hit piece on Pope Francis. It was bad, has gotten only worse. I think the “emotivism” is on the side of those quoting Rorate. They are not reliable, either.

  • http://gilberthouse.blogspot.com Miki Tracy

    Wow. It’s amazing the nastiness that gets dished out by my rabid brothers and sisters. As a Traditionalist Catholic I, too, am very deeply ashamed of this lunacy. Both the smearing of a faithfully practising Catholic convert, and the treatment of one of the most heinous passages in the history of mankind. I am so sorry.

  • http://twitter.com/MrsKrishan Clare Krishan

    ditto what Fr Angelo says.

  • Tina In Ashburn

    I agree Dawn, that its a mess. Part of the problem with all the opinions and articles and mania is that most everything represents a little bit of truth. Like you, I’ll stick with the visible Church, in spite of the warts. While I sympathize with much of SSPXers’s position, those who seriously hang with them inherit the schismatic mindset. I agree with other comments here that all this takes away from the true cause of the EF, which I love and attend too.

    Research has supported that the Holocaust numbers may be skewed or exaggerated. I dunno the specifics of the actual truth. However to deny the existence of the Holocaust is ridiculous. Additionally, the view of the Jewish people by the Catholic Church should not be hatred, but prayer for conversion. This position has definitely become muddled in the last 50 years, and is way too complex to discuss here.

    The holocaust-thing has gotten out of hand. What started as responsible folks trying to ascertain what really happened and separate exaggerated reporting from reality has turned into utter denial by some that the Holocaust happened. As a result of those trying to figure out the truth about the lesser-known deaths of Catholics, religious and other non-Jews in the Holocaust has come to light. Some say of those 6 million, 3 million may have been Jews, while 3 million were all the others put to death. Some make the observation that the gas chambers and incinerators working day and night could never have disposed of as many as 6 million, for instance. One of the unanswered questions is where are all the remains. In the 70s when we visited Auschwitz, when mother asked to view the gas chamber, the guide quietly told my mother that gas chambers never existed there, that they were being built for the tourists – I remember the absence of the chambers and the construction there at the time. This is not to say that people weren’t put to death, but that there has been exaggerations. I can’t prove this statement, and many may clamor with differing stories – but that is my little tidbit. Also I have a Jewish physicist relative who survived in Nazi Germany because of his scientific work at the time – though his bosses had to work to save him from dismissal from the Warburg Institute.

    How people can utterly deny the whole thing is beyond me, if that is in fact what they are doing [admittedly I haven't the patience to read those people, nor have the time and resources to check facts and numbers of original sources]. We have witness of those survivors with the numbered tattoos telling us the stories, as well as the martyrdom of Edith Stein and Fr Maximillian Kolbe within this Holocaust environment.

    Just because one does not know the answer doesn’t mean actual history should be discounted. Yes missing millions were murdered. Who were they? Where are the remains? Where are the records? These hidden answers are not the same as proof that such evil did not occur.

    In regard to Pope Francis non-support of the Tridentine Mass, there appears to be supporting facts. One reason the SSPX is so huge in Argentina is because its virtually the only organization openly offering the old Mass. Filling the tradition vacuum gives the SSPX an unfortunate advantage to promote their agenda. At the same time, I respect and support those trying to put Pope Francis in a positive light. The man has the Faith and does many things right, but liberal influences may have created the oddness we see today. Its only fair to hope and pray that our Pope will learn more in this new position, and the effects of the holy office will improve his understanding of Liturgy and the worthiness of right symbolism.

  • http://marvitctrix.com frangelo

    dcs@April 8, 2013 at 11:53 am

    I will be the first to admit that there are problems within our house. I just don’t see why traditionalists find it so impossible to see the problems within theirs. Even your comment is just a deflection.

    • dcs

      Fr. Angelo, I do see that there are problems in the EF “house” — I’m just not so quick to think that we must “purge” them. Should pastors of EF communities withhold the Sacraments from anti-Semites and other rad-trad conspiracy theorists? What does it mean, practically, for traditionalists to “clean house”?

      • http://marvitctrix.com frangelo

        Oh, I don’t know, refuting the political and social aberrations; a little self-criticism; a bit of honesty that not all critiques of the trad movement are rooted in heterodoxy.

        BTW, I did not say that there were undesirables that needed to be purged from the traditionalist movement.

    • Phil

      I am someone who was raised in the Extraordinary Form and continue to prefer this form because of the reverence there which is lacking in SO many of the vernacular form masses. I don’t like to categorize myself as a Traditionalist because if we didn’t believe in Tradition, we wouldn’t be Catholic. I categorize myself as Catholic. However, for the sake of this discussion, I can see problems in Traditionalists communities. There are plenty of problems. Many of these problems have a much more easier time looking beyond then I can the Sacramental abuses of the Vernacular Form. Just seeing a priest and how he “cleans up” (or lack thereof) the sacred vessels makes me cringe. If we all believe that every single tiny particle is Body and Blood or Christ in Its entirety, then why oh why are they so sloppy. I’m not trying to deviate from the topic, but my point is there is plenty of cleaning of house in the vernacular form which needs to be done before casting judgement to anyone else. I know there are problems in some of the “traditionalists” congregations, but there is far more good which outweighs the bad.

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  • Tom

    Dawn, I read the original Spanish. Your google summary seems spot on. He is a holocaust minimizer. It’s quite a depraved read.

  • Marie V

    Dawn,
    I have very much enjoyed your writing and hold you in respect and that’s the reason why I was particularly disappointed with this post.
    Is it a “bald face lie”?? Isn’t it possible it was just a mistake?
    Perhaps they didn’t know about the antisemitism.
    I have not had the benefit of the TLM being available in my area, but have been greatly supported by traditional blogs. I have never seen anything antisemitic on the Rorate blog. If there is evidence of this, please inform me!
    Just because they happen to be Traditionalists does not mean they should not get the same politeness and balance in fraternal correction that I’ve seen you give to others.
    It’s not just Rorate Caeli who you may harm.
    Thank you,
    Marie

  • Dominic

    Good grief! It’s simple Miss Eden: All we as traditionalists want is the Catholic faith without the Modern novelties. The only purpose in the novelties of Vatican II was to increase the faith of Modern people. Since history has shown those novelties to be a complete failure, it is would be prudent to not participate in those novelties.
    “We are what you once were.
    We believe what you once believed.
    We worship as you once worshipped.
    If you were right then, we are right now.
    If we are wrong now, you were wrong then.”

    As for anti-semitism, that is nonsense and a red-herring. The SSPX and all traditional Catholics condemn prejudice against race in any form. All the SSPX are is Catholic. Period.

  • Retnutim

    It is very sad. Eden is not even able to make the distinction between belittlement and denying of the holocaust. Reading Gonzalez’s blog entry I didn’t find any sentence, with which he denied (!) the holocaust, only some sentences, which you can read as a belittlement. But what does this say about her and her approach to the facts. It seems that her line of thinking here is
    a) those facts were made known to rorate by a person she doesn’t like. b) she doesn’t like other things that person has said. c) therefore, she believes the opposite of the facts. And the stupidity “Don’t get your “reliable” information about the Pope from a blog that venerates the Society of St. Pius X.” Yeah, right. Because her blog entry with Google translate is reliable.

    • Mark Shea

      “Eden is not even able to make the distinction between belittlement and denying of the holocaust.”

      Wow. It’s just *belittling* the murder of six million Jews, not actually *denying* it. Why so sensitive, Dawn?

      Rad Trads: The worst enemies of Traditionalism on the Planet.

      • michael

        Actually, Mark, many Rad Trads are geocentrists and geostatists, like all the Church Fathers, making the earth not a planet, but the very center of the universe. Pope John Paul II, who flew in a papal plane called the Galileo, tried to discredit the rulings of the Holy Office under St. Robert Bellarmine, but was unable to do so. By the way, is Holocaust acknowledgment now a settled dogma that no one may add to or subtract from?

        • Dawn Eden

          I have been deleting most of Michael’s comments (see Mark Shea’s blog to see why) but thought this one merited inclusion to see what I have been dealing with. …

  • Carlos

    This comment is not completely related and so I don’t mind if it’s not posted. I just wanted to say that I heard of you from a sermon on AudioSancto (titlted “Prayers for Healing in the Liturgy” or something to that effect). The priest (whose sermons I thank God for) recommended your latest book, My Peace I Give to You. I just wanted to say that your approach and handling of the topic is incredible, and the message is even more incredible. I saw you on EWTN’s the Journey Home a while back and I’ve kept your final prayer request from that show in my prayers.

    This mystical body we’re a part of is not perfect. But I’m thankful to be a part of it, to be able to pray for you and what you’re doing.

    • Dawn Eden

      Thank you so much, Carlos, for all your good wishes and especially your prayers. Praying for you too and commending you to Our Lady on this Solemnity of the Annunciation.

  • Dominic

    One more thing, just because someone claims that a certain number of Jewish people were not killed in the Holocaust doesn’t make them an anti-semite. The number of people killed is a historical question open to debate. The justification for killing them is a philosophical stance: anti-semitism. If, I, as a historical researcher determine that 5 million were killed and not 6 million, does that make me an anti-semite? How about 4 million, or 3 million? What number makes me an anti-semite? The answer: it doesn’t matter. You are not anti-semite, if you are not against the Jewish race. That’s what the word means. It has nothing to do with number of people that were killed in the Holocaust. Moreover, it is impossible for a true member of the SSPX to be against the Jewish race, since like all good Catholics, they believe Christ and Mary are of the Jewish race.

  • Richard C.

    On one hand, yes, Dawn is arguing against the man. She’s impeaching his credibility.

    And he seems to deserve it: his rhetoric in the Holocaust article is so slippery that he can’t be trusted about much.

    He may be factually right or wrong about TLMs in Buenos Aires; I don’t know. Either way, disregard his claims and get a verification about the situation from some other source.

  • anna lisa

    Wow, what a shame that any of these people that claim to love “traditional Catholicism” would want to gossip, and back bite our new Holy Father. It doesn’t surprise me however; all gnostic sects have behaved exactly the same way. Satan obviously doesn’t need to get too creative in recycling the same old garbage our pride needs to thrive. They can hold hands with the atheists, and look down their noses while the little song in their head convinces them they they are superior to everyone else. They’re in for a big surprise. Heaven will probably make them hold their noses as well.

  • Sheldon

    So, you have to agree that 6 million Jewish people died in the holocaust to be credible? to be Catholic? What if I said 7 million were killed? 10 million?
    I hate to inform you but the number of the Jews that died in the Holocaust is not a dogma of Faith nor is it a teaching of the Ordinary Magisterium, nor could it ever be.

    • craig

      The Nazi concentration camp deaths were one of the most meticulously documented programs in human history. The perpetrators recorded everything until the Allied armies were literally at the camp gates. So inflated figures would be incorrect, but not contradictory. On the other hand, an insistence on figures that result in lower death tolls than the Nazis themselves admitted to, is difficult to explain except by animus toward Jews.

      • Stephen Spencer

        I believe that you missed Sheldon’s point: opinions on historical events–even stupid opinions–are not a basis for excommunication. There is no Church doctrine that ever held that Judgment is going to be history test on secular events. And there Pope Francis is just not a real liturgical guy: and that’s true no matter who says it.

  • honoria

    is holocaust denial a Mortal sin or venial sin?????????

    • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin

      That’s probably the wrong question. The right question is: does holocaust denial make you a fool? That answer is most certainly yes. One can’t know the state of their mind and culpability, but to argue holocaust denialism (or the watered down minimalism that those without the courage of their convictions all too often adopt) spits in the face of pretty much all recorded history and knowledge. It’s like arguing the earth is flat or only 7,000 years old. That may or may not be mortally sinful, but it does make one a loon and deserving of being shunned from grownup talk.

  • Blake Helgoth

    As lover and studier of the Sacred Liturgy, I have to laugh at the so called ‘TLM’ folks. So they really think the Pope Emeritus wanted to preserve the liturgy forever as it existed in 1962! Why is that better than the Mass of Pope St. Pius V (actually the reforms of Trent)? Pope Benedict actually wanted the EF Mass to influence the OF Mass and vice versa. Reform was needed at the time of VT II, just not exactly the ‘reform’ we got. All this vitriol being spewed at Pope Francis because he did not preserve the EF Mass exactly as it had been celebrated in 1962! News falsh, it is no longer 1962 so things need to be updated (oh, the horror) to acomodate things like new feast days, a fuller cycle of Biblical reading, etc. All the liturgical bickering that you TLM folks do just drives others away. It is not at the service of the Gospel.

    • http://marvitctrix.com frangelo

      Excactly, Blake. Well said.

    • Yae

      I agree but sadly. One of the reasons I cannot relate to these folks is the fact that many of us who attended the NO Mass rather than the EF Mass, are sneered at as being “less Catholic.” I have only ever seen this from the TLM folks online and have thus stopped visiting certain sites due to this attitude as I do not understand it and have found it to be divisive and scandalous and too self-righteous.
      To be sure, I am well aware of the divisiveness that exists on the left as well, but my position is at the foot of the cross, not on the right nor on the left.

      Dawn, a well written piece and one I agree with. I stand with you and will look into the prayers you are recommending not only for those who spread joy robbing poison but for all of us as we all need conversion and salvation. Like Papa Francis always invites us to consider, “faith, courage and trust!” Let us continue to support him as he goes about proclaiming Christ Crucified and calling us all back to Him.

      I support the Jewish people and have a special affection for them. I have two very dear friends, of fond memory, who are devout Jews, we enjoyed a friendship many wonderful conversations and memories together. I was so happy when Papa Francis was pictured embracing the little Rabbi from Argentina when he met with folks from all religious walks of life. To have them walk with us “in righteousness,” is beneficial to all of goodwill and I for one, wholeheartedly support and pray for such.

      Let us keep each other in prayer and imitate Papa Francis and Papa Benedict in prayer, in faith, in hope and in charity. Papa Francis goes about with his daily duty, Papa Benedict, at the foot of the cross, praying for all and boy! As evidenced by some of the commentary herein, WE ARE ALL IN NEED!

      Amen! God bless you Dawn for your courage and your faith!

  • Bob F.

    I think RC calls your post a “non-sequitur” because it does not respond to the substance of their criticism of Pope Francis, namely that there were no TLMs in the Archdiocese of Buenos Aires under Bergoglio. Whether the individual who reports this is an anti-semite or not is irrelevant to the question. The question is a factual one: were there or were there not TLMs in the Archdiocese under Bergoglio?

    RC reports that there was a “hybrid” TLM that was eventually discontinued leaving no TLM in the Archdiocese. Is this or isn’t this true as a matter of fact?

  • Bayou Ben

    Dear Miss Eden,

    I have done my own translation of the original Spanish. I don’t want to say too much publicly. If you are willing to contact me by the email address I have provided, I will be happy to share the results of my translation with you. I think you will be interested to know what I have discovered.

    Sincerely,
    Ben

  • Bob F.

    To be clear, anti-semitism (Holocaust denial in particular) is a horrible thing. The question up for debate, however, is whether RC is right or wrong about the situation of the TLM in Buenos Aires under Bergoglio. A buddhist, a muslim, zoroastrian, etc. could answer the question. The anti-semitism–as horrible as it is–is not relevant to the question at hand. (Though, may be related to other questions, e.g. are there dangerous forces within traditionalism of which one should be wary)

  • Cassandra

    Dawn, I have read your Master’s thesis on West. I was glad to see someone take him on. As a result you experienced a significant backlash from misguided devotees of West. I would think from that experience you’d be more careful about the same kind of emotional attack on others such as Rorate Caeli.

    Ironically, in your response to the first comment on the post, you mention your distaste for Ad Hominem attacks. Yet that is exactly your approach to Marcelo Gonzalez. You’re questioning his report on the TLM by attacking his credibility based on another article. That smacks of hypocrisy. Additionally, your link to the post from holysoulshermitage.com is irrelevant and unusable as documentation in the issue about the TLM as it contains nothing but opinion and no source documentation.

    Like you, I am not a Spanish speaker, and I worked my way through the Google translation with the aid of other translator tools. I’m not convinced from the text that he is denying the holocaust at all. Most certainly, you are going off half-cocked without even a proper understanding of the document. I think you have attempted an interpretation using the “hermeneutic of suspicion”, and have actually libeled him. Furthermore, it is a philosophical principle that “the one who asserts has the burden of proof.” It is not for others to provide a proper translation of the article to disprove you, it is for *you* to provide it and *prove* that Gonzalez is saying what you claim. Quite frankly, you should go directly to Gonzalez for the translation to make sure it is faithful to the original.

    Now let’s look at that suspect article. To start with, the word, holocuentes, that Google translates as “Hollowcaust” does not even exist in Spanish according to translator sites. It’s a concocted word that would require a fluent speaker to translate. I broke the word down to holo and cuentes and got a little further. There is no word or suggested prefix for holo and so this is likely borrowed from holocaust. Cuentes has a variety of meanings, from story, tale, or fable to verb such as to count or to rely on. One translation then might be “holofable”.

    His article is about declaring his position in a debate between a “politically correct” and manipulated version of the Holocaust and the denying or minimizing version of Holofable. However, Gonzalez does not appear to be advancing Holofable. He is contrasting the positions between them before giving his own actual position: “I’m sick of both sides.”

    Google renders “Concluyendo: que estoy tan harto del holocuento de unos como de otros” as “In conclusion: I’m so sick of Hollowcaust about as other.” Another translator renders this as “To conclude: I am so tired of the holocuento of some as other.”
    I think what he’s saying is that he is sick of both the politically correct and manipulated story (of the Holocaust) and the denying (Holofable).

    “The first point, few were, I will not argue, because I have no desire or historical authority to enter into this controversy.” He explicitly says he’s not even going address the question of how many died in the Holocaust because he has no qualifications to do so. No one who does not have access to the original historical records does. We must simply trust those who do, as is the case with virtually every other body of knowledge.

    Gonzalez does take issue with the “politically correct” depiction of the Holocaust victims as *exclusively* Jewish. This is absolutely fair and correct. If you polled a typical high school class and asked who died in the Holocaust, you’ll get the answer “Jews” with very few responses that others such as the Gypsies were also targeted. You certainly won’t hear that it began with the mentally ill and disabled because the abortion advocates don’t want to give credence to the pro-life assertion that our culture is well down the path that Hitler went.

    Gonzalez does acknowledge that the Holofable adherents are correct when they reject that one “can not be Catholic without believing in the ‘holocaust’”. This is basic theology. The Holocaust is not a de fide (dogmatic) truth that must be accepted by Faith in order to be Catholic. However, Gonzalez also takes issue with the Holofable adherents for “not so willing to admit… that you can be Catholic and support the holocaust” (emphasized in the original article).

    Continuing: “Because, if so, may incur a historic misjudgment (no greater than theirs), but that does not affect any article of faith. While they seem to say that it is impossible to be Catholic without denying the Holocaust. Which is nonsense. ” Gonzalez seems to be saying that Holofable adherents (who have a great historical misjudgment) are unwilling to allow that one can be Catholic and accept the Holocaust because of the possibility of historical misjudgment. Gonzalez rejects that because accepting the Holocaust and (possibly) being wrong wouldn’t matter because, again, it is not a de fide truth.

    In fine, Dawn, I contend that you have utterly mistaken Gonzalez’s intent in this article and had better prove he is saying what you claim, or issue a retraction. I would also spend some time reconsidering why you felt it so necessary to go after him. Was it based on reason or emotion?

    • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin

      In order to claim there is a “Holofable” versus the authentic holocaust, it requires engaging in the worst kind of revionist history and conspiracy theorizing. While there may be other reasons for doing that, there is a strong statistical correlation between this kind of thinking and holocaust denial/dismissal. It is akin to flat/young earthers. It isn’t ipso facto heretical, but it’s deeply misguided thinking, and useually a nasty agenda.

    • http://marvitctrix.com frangelo

      Dawn Eden’s concern over Marcelo Gonzalez’s article is absolute warranted. She is being much maligned for her courage.

      Gonzalez bends over backwards to excuse the Nazi regime, comparing its intention for putting Jews in concentration camps to the reasons why the US interred the Japanese during World War II. He also suggests that many of the deaths were more or less accidental from poorer living conditions in war-torn Europe. But the icing on the cake is this:

      “And to say that everything done by the Axis was a cruel plan of systematic extermination is as unacceptable as saying that the inmates of these places lived in a recreation area.”

      Marcelo Gonzalez is doing much more than distinguishing between extremes. He is just repeating Rad Trad boilerplate, while attempting to present in a moderate tone. He is not disputing the numbers. He says he is not even interested in that question. No, what he suggests is that the whole Nazi malice to exterminate the Jews is a political fabrication, which other Trads will say has been done to destroy the Church. I wonder if the history of Nazism in Argentina has anything to do with Gonzalez’s sympathies.

      There is no serious historical dispute at the root of this problem. What we have here traditionalist paranoia that is in need of tracing everything that has happened over the last 50 years to the Jews, Masons and Modernists, including Vatican II and especially Nostra Aetate and our having dropped the word “perfidious” as a modifier to “Jews” from our prayer for the Jewish people on Good Friday (along with other changes).

      Dawn Eden does not owe Gonzalez an apology. This is old traditionalist hat. It doesn’t sustain parsing ad infinitum.

      Which leaves us to ask the question of what exactly was going on with Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio in regard to his dispositions for the Latin Mass community in Buenos Aires. Perhaps the situation is a bit more complex than Gonzalez would make it out to be. Perhaps Cardinal Bergoglio had reasons to want to make sure that those who attended the Latin Mass under his auspices actually accepted Vatican II.

      Dawn is right on the money. And she has kicked a hornets’ nest.

  • http://abbey-roads.blogspot.com/ Terry

    God bless you Dawn – you are spot on – and you are fortunate to have the good support of Fr. Angelo and others. Keep up the good work!

  • led

    The discussion on this issue often involves people haughtily identifying someone as using an “ad hominem fallacy,” if they bring up someone’s views on another topic than the one in question. Just to be clear (and I say this as a philosophy Ph.D.), this is a really overused charge. It is sometimes perfectly appropriate, and completely non-fallacious, to cite information that bears on someone’s reliability and judgment. This happens everyday in courtrooms (and in everyday social interactions as well). It is certainly relevant to know that someone is a Holocaust denier, as it suggests that he has some combination of anti-semitic animus, poor judgment, and/or an irrationally paranoid suspicion of “mainstream” sources. Such a combination of characteristics is reasonably thought to discredit someone as a source of judgment in general. So no, of course it doesn’t follow that this guy is wrong on whether Francis was hostile to the EF – but it does follow that we should give very little credence to his judgment, and should seek light elsewhere.

    If somebody walks up to you and says that he has met you before and has something important to tell you, that may be true, or it may be false. If he then says that he is the reincarnation of Alexander the Great, you (justifiably, rationally) are going to take his first assertion as having zero evidence in its favor. There’s no fallacy there.

  • CatholicBuckeye

    Here are the facts:

    - There was no diocesan TLM under Bergolio, as Rorate correctly reported and as you incorrectly report.

    - While this is true, Rorate nonetheless used bad judgement in publishing an article by Marcelo Gonzalez only minutes after the announcement of Pope Francis’ election. Even if much in the Gonzalez letter is true (not saying it is or it isn’t) there was no proof, (hattips, hyperlinks, etc) to substantiate many of the claims in the Gonzalez article (How can one demonstrate that the fiasco of the Buenos Aires hybrid mass was orchestrated intentionally by Bergolio to dash traditionalists hopes, as is implied by the Gonzalez article?)

    - Even if Gonzalez is a “holocaust” denier, so what? That doesn’t say he is a bad Catholic, that just says he is bad at history. Being a “Holocaust denier” does not make one a bad Catholic. If someone says there was only 100,000 Jews killed during the Holocaust (or whatever low number these deniers claim), not 6 million, so what? The number of people killed during World War II, the Holocaust, whatever, has nothing to do with the Catholic faith. You don’t have to think, like I do, that 6 million Jews were murdered during a historical event known as the Holocaust in order to be a good Catholic.
    “I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth, I believe in a Holocaust death toll of no less than 6 million Jews…”

    - Rorate kind of gets what they deserve in terms of negative attention for publishing the Gonzalez article in the way that it chose to do. Rorate was able to substantiate the Gonzalez claim that there was no diocesan TLM in Buenos Aires, but we have seen little substantiation of Gonzalez’s other claims. Until it can substantiate those other claims, it will continue to take a hit.

  • http://www.voxcantor.blogspot.com David Anthony Domet

    How is it that some people, and I include Mr. Shea, can find any opportunity to drag down Michael Voris? What does he have to do with this post?

  • Jennifer

    When you consider that Rorate Coeli’s comments are HEAVILY moderated, the despicable comments are even worse. They appear there because the bloggers want them to. I shudder to think what they actually consider too extreme to approve (well, other than comments that disagree with their agenda, that is).

  • Bernardo

    What is all the fuss about? Some people simply dont believe that many people died in the holocaust, so, aren’t they entitled to their opinion??. Some people dont believe in our Lord’s resurrection (which is infinitely far worse) and i dont see anybody throwing fits and ranting about it, which by the way, in reality, poses real danger to their souls.

  • Bayou Ben

    @All still reading

    I don’t know whether anyone is still reading this thread, but if so, I need to step in at this point. I have tried to offer Miss Eden an opportunity to be corrected in private and, since she moderates, I suppose she will see this anyway beforehand. However, I am duty-bound in justice to say that, perhaps because of a mistaken translation, she and many of those making comments here are doing a grave disservice to Mr. Gonzalez (yes, he is a real human being with a name!). In fact, this whole post has been gossip, slander, and libel. It is a real shame because this is all happening in a language that your CHRISTIAN BROTHER does not speak!! Thus, he cannot defend himself or give better explanation.

    I think that a direct (non-Google) translation of his writing should go a long way to clear up what he is really saying. His last paragraph says this (my translation), “In conclusion: I have to say that I am just as tired of one version of Holocaust Story as I am of another [earlier he stated the obvious fact that there are historical facts and then there are the stories that relate those facts; these stories will be influenced by bias]. And, if it is true that the second group [the anti-Jewish version of the Holocaust, or the "deniers"] acts well, with reason, to reject the heretical proposition that “one cannot be Catholic without believing in the ‘Holocaust’”, I still do not see them very disposed to admit the contrary: that one can be both Catholic and admit the Holocaust. Because, in such a case [that one could be both Catholic and accept the Holocaust], one might involve oneself in an historical error (although no greater that the error [of the other camp]), but [at least] this [error] does not affect any article of the Faith [so, what he is saying is that, even if it were to turn out that the Holocaust is not true, which he is not asserting, at least then one is not involved in the error of saying that if you admit the Holocaust then you are not Catholic, as apparently some of those in Traditionalist circles might say]. While, it seems that this group says that it is impossible to be Catholic unless you reject the Holocaust. That is an absurd folly. So, this is my position, in case it interests anyone.”

    Of course, I have only given here the last paragraph. However, as a fluent Spanish-speaker I thought it important that someone speak up for a gentleman who cannot defend himself. He has been horribly misunderstood and his name will never be set right again. The Internet, a powerful tool, can also be a tool for great (even mistaken) evil. Please try to make reparation for the sin of defaming this man’s name. If you cannot read Spanish, then you really should not be commenting on what he said, because you don’t know what he said.

    In short, he is not denying the Holocaust. He is speaking to the Traditionalist community (perhaps only in Argentina, perhaps not) and saying, “Look, let’s just assume for argument’s sake that you cannot *prove* the Holocaust. Even so, to assert that you cannot be Catholic and accept the Holocaust is just as absurd as to assert that you cannot be Catholic unless you accept it.” I think this position is really not objectionable in itself and certainly deserves far less vitriol than he has thus far received.

    Yours sincerely in Christ,

    Ben

    • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin

      Change Holocaust with “flat earth” or “earth is only 7,000 years old” and see how absurd it sounds. It’s like those who try to attach to Christianity the idea that vaccines cause autism, or to be authentically “part of the land” you can’t eat GMO foods, because GMO foods cause cancer. You could say, in theorycrafting land, since it doesn’t affect the faith, it isn’t a big deal.

      But your basically saying quackpot conspiracy theories are equal to established facts and overwhelming forensic evidence.. THE HOLOCAUST FREAKING HAPPENED. At least 6 million Jews, alongside a couple million non jews were slaughtered by a racist genocidial regime. That there are some traditionalists (or anyone for that matter!) who are making an issue out of this or questioning it is the height of stupidity and scandal. Why don’t we re-open genocentricism as people like Bob Sungenis do? Or young-earthism?

      There’s no way you can hold this kind of view unless you are invincibly ignorant, or believe that everything is all part of one big jewish conspiracy to obscure the truth. Conspiracy theorizing like this is a mortal sin.

      • Kori

        But Keven, from my own reading of the Google Translate document and from translations such as that offered by Bayou Ben, Mr. Gonzalez is actually NOT commenting on the reality of whether or not the Holocaust happened. He IS commenting on those who are dumb enough to engage in the debate. He is CRITICIZING those who are Holocaust Deniers. That’s my take on it. Dawn offered the document to read and I read it. I firmly believe and assert that the Holocaust, as we commonly understand it, happened and I don’t believe, reading that document/blog post, that there is any evidence that Mr. Gonzalez believes anything different than I do. Those who jumped right in to defame the man – did you READ the document?? Or did you seek out key words and phrases and form an opinion that way?

    • Dawn Eden

      Ben, thanks for offering to write in private. You are welcome to post the entire translation in the combox. I do think that if Google Translate were that far off, Rorate Caeli would have said so, or would have published their own translation. Cassandra’s writing that Gonzalez refers to the Holocaust as the “Holofable” did not strike me as any less offensive than Google’s translation “Hollowcaust.”

      • Kori

        Dawn, I think Rorate cares more about your opinions of them than it does as to whether or not Mr. Gonzalez is a Holocaust denier. (I’m no big fan of RC, myself) They don’t need to dispute that part because, perhaps, they don’t care.

        Also, I got the impression that Mr. Gonzalez was using the word “holocuentes” as illustrative and not derogatory. We should not hold historical labels to be sacred. The word holocaust had a meaning well before it was applied to this particular systematic genocide.

        • Dawn Eden

          But Gonzalez is doubting even that there was a systematic genocide.

          • Kori

            Quote me where it says that, because I didn’t read that and I’m fairly intelligent. I will absolutely 100% retract what I’ve said if you can show me exactly where he states HIS opinion on the *Holocaust* and not his opinion on *those who engage in the debate*.

          • Dawn Eden

            Read it again. Gonzalez hypothesizes that the Jews were held in camps for reasons similar to the Americans’ interment of Japanese, and further considers that, in such a case, at least some of the deaths could have come from starvation. He adds, “And to say that everything done by the Axis was a cruel plan of systematic extermination is as unacceptable as saying that the inmates of these places lived in a recreation area.”

          • Kori

            Okay. I did. Yes – he compared some Nazi camps to some of the camps used in the internment of the Japanese. Have you read any accounts of the Japanese internment? I have. Some of them are pretty severe. They are not widely known because then this country would have to acknowledge truths that, well, make us uncomfortable. Also, in my understanding of the Nazi system not all camps were Death Camps. There were Extermination Camps (which is what we all think of Nazi camps), Concentration Camps (which was labor intensive and often led to death through exhaustion and poor living conditions) and there were Labor Camps. Concentration Camps and Labor Camps did not exist as systematic execution. I’m not making this stuff up. It’s real history. Also, you quote him saying, “And to say that everything done by the Axis was a cruel plan of systematic extermination…” I don’t think the Japanese cared one fig for the extermination of the Jews. That was solely Hitler’s brand of crazy. The other parts of the Axis got dragged along for the ride. And they were a pretty important part of the Axis. This is not splitting hairs.

            He goes on to say that because there are zealots on both sides (those who say not only that all camps were execution in nature, but that also the entirety of World War II focused on the extermination of the Jewish people and those who say no camps were death camps and WWII was solely political) there can be no rational discussion.

            But then – he makes his real point which is that those who debate the extreme back and forth lose sight of what is truly important and that is the Catholic Faith. Of course the Holocaust is an important historical event that we can and must learn from (although based on the Rwandan genocide I’m not sure we’ve learned anything) but it is not the Faith and we must not hold it up to be equal as such.

  • Ed

    The Southern Poverty Law Center considers SSPX and other Traditionalists organizations as hate groups because of their anti-semitism. splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/ideology/radical-traditional-catholicism/the-radical-traditionalist

    • Dawn Eden

      True. Unfortunately they consider the Family Research Council a hate group as well.

      • Bayou Ben

        Oh Miss Eden, you commented, thus, you saw my post. Please, please reconsider your comments. You have a moral obligation to correct what has happened, even if it were the result of a mistaken impression from a less than stellar translation. Please, for the love of God and the sake of justice, please correct this debacle. –B.B.

        • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin

          She only has a moral obligation if she’s wrong. Read her previous quote she just put to Kori. I understand giving the benefit of the doubt. but sometimes guilty is just guilty.

          • Kori

            I don’t think she’s wrong – I think more is lost in translation than appears. There is a cultural and a lingual divide here. More charity on both sides, please.

        • Marye

          Dear Ben,
          Since you’ve translated the entire article, and since Dawn said that it’s okay to post the entire translation, maybe you should do so. It would help me and it could certainly help the discussion. It’s difficult to make a judgement based solely on the last paragraph, and on various people’s assertions that the article says something else. The entire article needs to be read in context.

  • Stephen Spencer

    A most disappointing article. Rotare Caeli is a well respected blog. Do they get everything right? Nobody does. But they are Catholics, like you, and tearing them down does not build you up. In order to claim that a person is actually lying, the standard of poof is so high as to be nearly unattainable. Moreover, there is absolutely not a single fact which contradicts the claim that our current Pope is not a fan of the Extraordinary Form–and acted accordingly. That’s what you would expect from even a good Jesuit. That’s what you would expect from a Pope that has exhibited some of the liturgical choices he has made. That doesn’t mean that he is the anti-Christ. It doesn’t even mean that he will not turn out to be one of the best Popes in history. It is just true, and all truth is God’s truth. It’s OK.

  • Liam Dudley

    Mark Shea’s comment at 3.26:

    Are you belittling or are you denying the murder of 5 million gentiles in Nazi prisons and camps?
    Back in the ’60s and into the ’70s in all the standard main stream news publications (like “Time”, say) , the numbers were always given this way: 11 million deaths, of which 6 million were Jews.
    Always.
    Somewhere along the way, the 5 million gentiles stopped being mentioned and remembered and now, I guess, Marc, maybe you are saying they matter less than others or didn’t exist?

  • Confused in California

    Dawn,

    Why is rorate obliged to provide a translation and defense? You levied an unsubstantiated accusation that was irrelevant to the issue at hand. Which has been repeatedly pointed out here.

    Your post amounts to, “I think that Peter was a jerk. And Paul mentioned Peter’s name when he demonstrated something factual. So Paul has to prove to me that Peter wasn’t a jerk.”

    Dawn, A and B are different things here.

    So, is rorate right on the facts regarding TLM in B.A?

    And, lobbing charges like you did without sufficient evidence… Is that appropriate? Isn’t the burden on you to demonstrate your accusation?

    You’ve engaged in some serious guilt by association that is itself a bit like a smear. This whole approach has been a catty gossipy approach.

  • Pingback: Why Would a Catholic from a Jewish Background Feel Unwelcome

  • GE

    Dear Dawn,

    I think you are being very unfair towards Rorate here.

    You claim there are lots of anti-semitic comments in their combox, I could not find any.

    Mr. Gonzalez does seem to be a Holocaust-belittler (not an outright denier, since he does not dispute that many Jews died, only that they should not be counted in millions, which is of course ludicrous given the evidence) but his main point seems yo be that people tend to forget that also many Catholics (and others) died in those camps, which I think is a fair point.

    Rorate for their part does not in any way endorse Gonzalez‘ position on these matters but is only concerned with the Pope‘s apparent lack of support for the TLM, on which point they seem correct.

  • Confused in California

    Fr,

    What is she right about? As has been pointed out repeatedly, that’s one of the problems with guilt by insinuation.

    Is this about Gonzalez or rorate?

    Is rorate right on the facts or not?

    And, can you read Gonzalez in his original language? It’s also been pointed out repeatedly that he isnt actually saying what Dawn alleges

    Your justification? More Guilt by association. It’s “rad trad boilerplate.”. And you then further go on to suggest that maybe that’s what Card B. was really doing, fighting the boilerplate! Or something!

    I look forward to your reply.

    • http://commonsensecatholicism.blogspot.com Kevin

      There was once a time (probably before the Internet) where you were incredibly careful about your sources.

      The issue is whether Cardinal Bergoglio was a “sworn enemy of the Traditional Mass.” Not doing anything to implement it is a lot different than sworn enemy. This source also stated that Cardinal Bergoglio essentially ignored abortion and gay marriage issues, something Rorate admitted was hyperbole.

      Well now we know why this guy is so prone to hyperbole. He’s a garden variety hack who speculates in holocaust denialism. Since a lot of his assertions require you to essentially trust his character and credibility, it is fair game to point out that nobody should take a holocaust denier seriously.

      Perhaps the bigger question: why on earth are people still talking about the holocaust and how it really wasn’t as bad as everyone makes it out to be, or at least the west was pretty bad as well? A lot of people are complaining “well this doesn’t touch faith or morals, so why so harsh?” How about, since it doesn’t concern faith or morals, they stop speculating on this sorta stuff in public and instead focus their energies on stuff actually useful? When prelates see this kinda stuff, they had a reason to shut down Latin Masses, to do what many of them wanted to do to begin with: make sure that mass fails. Congrats, by engaging in holocaust denialism, that gave them a pretext.

      This might be way too academic a discussion for the internet or comboxes, but it is what it is. Whatever happened to the Apostle’s exhortation to be above reproach in our business?

  • http://depanorama.net Brother Juniper

    After reading every word of this (and every word over at Rorate Caeli), it looks to me as if Summorum Pontificum / Universae Ecclesiae was wholly unimplemented in the Archdiocese of Buenos Aires. Is there anything else I should read? I must say all your bickering could drive a fellow to drink.


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