5 Things Jesus Would Say to Conservative American Evangelicals

jesus say to conservatives

There’s a growing polarization in America. As the gulf between the partisan left and the right continues to expand, there’s very little middle ground to be found.

The Pew Research Center has tracked data since 1994 which clearly demonstrates this growing entrenchment. In 1994, Democrats and Republicans were gathered pretty closely in the middle. In fact, 23 percent of Republicans were more liberal than the average Democrat, and 17 percent of Democrats were more conservative than the typical Republican.

Today, the middle is almost nonexistent. There’s a more significant ideological divide than ever. In 1994, only 23 percent of liberals had an unfavorable view of Republicans, and only 28 percent of conservatives had unfavorable opinions of Democrats. In today’s culture of extreme political tribalism, 53 percent of liberals carry negative impressions of Republicans, while 72 percent of conservatives think that Democrats are a danger to the country. 

So why am I picking on conservatives?

There’s no question that conservatives are not solely to blame for this problem. So where do I get off calling them out? That’s a great question.

In the last thirty years, evangelicalism has come under the spell of the Republican party. Through an intentional effort to secure this enormous voting bloc—one that responded positively to Jimmy Carter’s “born again” talk—Republicans focused on painting themselves as God’s party. They were the only ones who cared about Christianity and moralism.

Today, Republicans need the evangelical vote. They’ve come to a place where they rely on this bloc to carry them through elections. By coloring themselves as the choice for God-fearing Christians, they guarantee that poor, white middle America will consistently vote Republican—often against their best interests.

Meanwhile, evangelical Christians are increasingly poisoned by this political association.  As Christians have conflated Christianity and conservative politics, they’ve ended up championing things that oppose Christ: nationalism, war, division, racism, hatred.

If conservatives and liberals simply represented two sides of a political divide, I wouldn’t particularly care. Politics are important insofar as they affect real people and for that reason, I try and vote as responsibly as possible. But the fact that people outside of the church are left thinking that American conservative politics and Christianity are synonymous is wrong—plain and simple.

This post isn’t intended to slam anyone with conservative viewpoints. There’s nothing wrong with having a political perspective that skews right. The problem occurs when you believe that your religious and political identity are synonymous. If you think that you’re a conservative because you’re a Christian, this post is for you.

And while this isn’t intended to be mean-spirited, it is pointed. The relationship between conservatism and the church is driving people away from the cross—and here’s what I think Jesus would say about it.

1. “I love you, but I love them, too.”

I live in a relatively small, conservative “Christian” community. People tend to assume that if you identify as a Christian here, you also identify with right-wing politics. Because of this, they openly talk about “liberals” in the most disdainful and often hateful ways. It often seems like conservativism is more about what you’re against (liberalism) than what you’re for—this only exacerbates the fact that religious people struggle with the same problem.

The difficulty is that if you don’t identify as a conservative, you’re automatically a “liberal.” In fact, if you disagree with any accepted conservative position (gun control, welfare, abortion, etc.), you can no longer call yourself a conservative. Sadly, this means that conservatives who are inclined to disagree with some aspects of conservative politics never speak up.

This mean-spirited vitriol pointed at liberals is anti-Christ, plain and simple. There’s no way that you can follow Christ and harbor that level of resentment and hate.

“But wait,” you might say. “Liberals hate conservatives, too!” You’re right. Some of them do. But honestly, that feeling isn’t held as strongly by liberals as it is by conservatives. And even if it was, who cares? Jesus called his followers to love their enemies. If someone holding a different political view than you makes them an enemy, you don’t get to hate them. Jesus calls his followers to a higher standard.

I think Jesus would say this:

“My child, I love you. It’s not because of something you did; it’s because of who I am. There’s not a thing you can do to earn my affection. This should be good news. You are now free to do good because you want to be good, and not because you’re trying to make yourself worthy of my regard. 

But you need to come to grips with the fact that I feel this way toward others. Your ‘rightness’ does not make you more deserving of my love. Your self-righteousness does not give you more value. I don’t take it lightly when you look disdainfully upon those for whom I was willing to give my very life. Remember, you’re not the judge, I AM.”

2. “You cannot serve both God and Caesar.”

A big part of the Christian conservatism movement is a we’re-more-patriotic-than-thou posture. Any criticism of the government, the military, or American policies is considered treasonous (unless, of course, there’s a liberal in the White House). It’s kind of bizarre. I mean, one of the biggest arguments they’d give for the second amendment is that they may need to fight the government—yet no one’s allowed to question, criticize, or protest it.

But Christians are called out of the world and turn their attention to a whole new Kingdom. Christ inaugurates us into a kingdom that is both “among us” and “to come.” Christians define themselves by their hope in the supremacy of this Kingdom over the empires of this world—even the very best empires.

But for some reason, instead of inviting others to embrace Christ’s otherworldly kingdom, the religious establishment wants to coerce godliness from others through America’s legislative structure. This behavior pits “good Americans” against “bad Americans” (an oddly anti-American position).

As evangelicalism become more enmeshed with American politics, the imagery begins to synchronize. It’s not odd to sing patriotic songs in churches or to conflate images of the cross with those of the American flag or the symbols of the guns and the Bible. Ultimately, religious expression becomes linked to what’s supremely American. The problem is that this doesn’t make America more “Christian,” it makes Christianity less Christlike.

I think Jesus would say this:

“I have called you out of this world. You now live in your earthly kingdoms as ambassadors for the Kingdom. As ambassadors, you’re responsible for building a relationship between my Kingdom and your host country. But never forget that even the best empires are opposed to me, so don’t be fooled by the lip service and attention paid to your interests.

Those who court your votes have no real desire to make the sacrifices required to recreate my Kingdom. While courting you, they bolster their own wealth, oppress the most vulnerable, and war against other nations. Don’t let them manipulate you to their ends and harden hearts against my Kingdom.”

3. “I have called you to serve, not to be served.”

Throughout history, Christendom has been at its worst when it’s aligned itself with power. Christianity has allowed itself to be a party to colonialism, slavery, violence, misogyny, racism, genocide, and has actively waged war against science. Every single time that Christendom aligns itself with power structures, the cause of Christ is harmed for generations.

The message of the New Testament is that true Christ followers will always be in the minority. There is nothing that remotely suggests that Christianity will be a faith that wields top-down influence. It’s a grassroots movement that grows by individuals touching the lives of others. Every time Christianity has successfully secured itself a seat at the table of power, it’s been disastrous for people—and the church.

Inevitably, the deceitfulness of riches and influence corrupts people who might have the best intentions, and every attempt to compel or coerce righteousness out of others leads them to resent Christ. This doesn’t mean that a Christian can’t run for office; it means that they are to do so to serve their most vulnerable constituents, not to secure more leverage for people of faith.

Jesus made it clear that there was only one ambition that he applauds, and that’s the aspiration for service. We are to serve others (preferably those who cannot repay us). Anything else is a perversion of Christ’s intention for the church. Privilege and position poison us. Instead of being servants who are in the minority, we begin to think that we deserve prominence. Recognizing the diversity of the countries we live in makes us angry. If someone wishes us “happy holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas,” we think we’re experiencing martyrdom.

I think Jesus would say this:

“You have no understanding of the sacrifice that I made to lay aside my crown and put on your flesh. I went so far as to allow my own creation to destroy me. But that’s why I came. Not to be served, but to serve. Not to take what I deserved, but to give my life as a ransom for many. This is my way, and I have invited you to walk in it. You’re not to try and recreate the Law in my name. I have not called you to place yourself over people—I’ve asked you to lift them up. 

I don’t care about how much power you have, how many degrees you have, how many congregants you have, how many books you’ve written, or how big your social media platform is. I care about your service. Anything else is anathema to me.”

4. “Be mindful of how you renew your mind.”

Pew Research Center study from 2014 found that American conservatives largely (88%) trust Fox News over any other news source. While liberals tend to get their news from a variety of sources, nearly half of all conservatives get theirs solely from Fox News. Many also seek out more conservative sources like Breitbart, Blaze, and the Drudge Report. While it would be easy to take aim at these sources, there’s a bigger problem here.

I know many Christians who have Fox News blasting away in their home 24-hours a day. And even if you’re not actively listening, there’s no way that your subconscious can hear a constant stream of angry people like Sean Hannity, Tomi Lahren, Ann Coulter, and Tucker Carlson and believe that it doesn’t affect how you feel about those who don’t agree with you. And if you think that this is a criticism that could be made at the Left, you’re right. The thing is, I don’t know that many people on the Left who are as committed to anything as conservatives are to Fox News.

Just like every other news agency, Fox News is a product. If you think that every other news source in the world is fake but the one you watch, you’re fooling yourself. This Rupert Murdoch media giant has the same goal as any other media outlet, secure advertising dollars. They just made an astute decision to do it by appealing to the crowd that gave Rush Limbaugh huge radio ratings. There is no altruistic reason for the existence of Fox News.

All Christians are to be transformed by the renewing of our mind—and that’s not done by pumping Fox News into your brain all day long. In fact, it might just be the opposite. In the last couple decades, Christians have made a significant switch from focusing on character and morals to aligning with ideology. When the Bill Clinton sex scandal broke, Christians were apoplectic. In their minds, a person’s character was the number one factor to consider when choosing a leader. But all that’s changed. In 2016, when a tape leaked of a potential leader bragging about sexual assault that women let him get away with it because of his celebrity status, evangelicals came out in droves to elect him.

When former Alabama state judge and conservative Roy Moore decided to make a Senate run, news started coming out about years of sexual assault of girls under the age of consent, 37 percent of evangelicals in Alabama said the allegations would make them more likely to vote for Moore, and 34 said it would have no effect. Why? Because Fox News has worked overtime to paint the whole thing as a big liberal conspiracy that just doesn’t matter. When we’ve gotten to the place where we’ll elect officials who are accused of the most egregious acts because we tell ourselves that it’s some liberal machination (who we’re supposed to hate), we’re outside of God’s will.

This isn’t just a case of “garbage in/garbage out.” Whether you watch MSNBC or Fox News all day long, you’re being programmed to think by corporations whose only real aim is to sell you luxury vehicles and kitchen appliances.

I think Jesus would say this:

I am the head, and the church is my body. I need my body to think my thoughts, and you can only do that as you invest in learning from me. Don’t be fooled by sitting at the feet of people who say that they’re mine but are teaching you to resent and devalue people made in my image. Be cleansed by washing with the water of the word, through prayer and meditation, and through the teaching of spirit-led people who you’ll know by their fruit. In the meantime, focus on what is true, noble, pure, admirable, and lovely.”

5. “I don’t grade on a curve.”

One of the most troubling things about talking to conservative evangelicalism is the alarming amount of whataboutism. This form of counter-criticism seeks to discredit analysis by making sketchy comparisons to things that are usually not very similar. If you need an example of this, read a few Trump tweets. He immediately responds to any criticism with, “What about Hillary . . .” It’s deflective, dismissive, and dishonest.

When the resurrected Christ stood on the shore with the disciples and announced that Peter was going to suffer, Peter responded by pointing at John and asking, “What about him?!” Jesus responded by saying, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me” (John 21:11). Despite the fact that the church enjoys a communal experience and relationship with Jesus, we are all on individual journeys. Each of us will be held responsible for our own behavior based on those behavior’s merits.

The problem that whataboutism poses for Christians is that it trains us to think that our goodness only has to be better than the person next to us. But when push comes to shove, we will stand before God and be judged on the basis of our knowledge, understanding, motives, and righteousness. We’re not going to be able to point at any other person or group and say, “At least we aren’t as bad as . . .” And God isn’t going to be swayed by invoking Hillary Clinton’s emails.

I think Jesus would say this:

I told you a parable about a day when I will separate the sheep from the goats. The winnowing was based on what people did or did not do. I’m not going to be persuaded to ignore the behavior of a goat because they’re able to point out someone else’s guilt. I will look judge the faith of each of you, and it will be based on my criteria and not yours. Grow your faith, do justly, love mercy, walk humbly with me and you’ll be fine. But you cannot allow yourself the luxury of using the disobedience of others as a cover for your own defiance and dereliction. In the end, you’re going to end up in the same pit that they do.”

Christ desires our unity

Before Christ was killed, he prayed for our unity:

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.”—John 17:20

Maybe America is the greatest country that ever existed. It doesn’t really matter. We’re called to something else entirely. And while it’s great to be thankful for the place you were born and to take part in the electoral process, politics is not a substitution for genuine communion, confession, and community. If your identity is in your political affiliation and you hate others who see things differently, it’s time to repent.

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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • toddh

    Well said, thank you. Glad the blog has a new home.

  • jaystriggle

    spec and log ?

  • CroneEver

    There’s probably a whole generation of young people out there who, when asked, say, 20 years from now, why they don’t go to church, or even consider themselves Christian, will say, “The whole Roy Moore thing.” And who could blame them?

  • Brad Feaker
  • jamesparson

    It is more than the just the Roy Moore thing.

    I would credit (or blame depending on your point of view)

    Facebook
    YouTube
    Wikipedia
    Google

    And anything else that exposes them to a multitude of points of view.

    If I were a serious Christian, I would want tot know everything I could know about religion. After looking at it, I wonder how I could conclude it was divine as opposed to man-made.

  • Brad Feaker

    Hi Mr. Bradley – while you and I would disagree, vehemently even, about religion (I am an atheist and former evangelical) it is nice to see this. A lot of the points you make are spot on. And I think a lot of the conflict between religion and secularism would slow to a crawl if folks would take heed of your words.

    Well said sir.

  • Jayson Bradley

    Hey Brad, thanks for your kind words (but I’m not sure how vehemently we’d disagree)!

  • Brad Feaker

    Perhaps not :) But I am an agnostic atheist after all!

    Edit: But I expect we would agree on a lot more than we disagree on :)

  • John Dozier

    First I have heard of agnostic atheist?

  • Brad Feaker

    The terms mean different things. Agnosticism addresses knowledge. Atheism addresses belief.

  • Lilly Munster

    Do not ascribe belief to Atheists. Atheism and Atheists rely on Science, facts, rational thought and evidence. Belief is for those with no knowledge of facts. You “believe” when you do not know.

  • Brad Feaker

    I am sorry – you are confused.

    Theism:
    noun
    belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures.

    With the prefix ‘A’ you change the meaning to without theism. Meaning atheists lack a belief in god(s).

    I am an atheist because I lack a belief in god(s).

    Gnosis:
    noun
    : esoteric knowledge of spiritual truth held by the ancient Gnostics to be essential to salvation

    Again – with the ‘A’ you change the meaning to without.

    I am an agnostic because there is no way I can say definitively that there are no god(s). To say that would mean I know everything there is to know – and that is not the case.

    Therefore, I am an agnostic atheist.

    Regards

  • Stuart Blessman

    An agnostic Christian would blow your mind then lol

  • jamesparson

    It is a common term.

    This from another agnostic atheist.

  • Judgeforyourself37

    Jayson, I concur with your post. How can the GOP say that it is the party of Pro Life and Family Values, when they want to lower taxes for the wealthiest among us, take away health care, by disallowing the Medicaid Expansion, not cover contraception that would prevent many unwanted pregnancies, and hence, many abortions? Many, in the GOP, still support Roy Moore, and Donald Trump, both of whom are sexual predators, is this a sign of Family Values? Some Roy Moore supporters would rather vote for him, knowing that he sexually abused young girls, than vote for a Democrat!
    Being Pro Life is more that the support of life prior to birth, but it means, to me, supporting and helping those who having been born and are struggling. You cannot be Pro Life and want to take away Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security, as Paul Ryan wants to do. Yet Ryan touts that he is a Pro Life Roman Catholic.

  • Bob Foy

    Once I thought Paul Ryan was a man of all integrity , but now I see him as a quivering tower of Jello with no moral compass. A devoted Catholic? I simply don’t know, it depends, I suppose on how one defines “devoted”, n’est pa?

  • super88

    Nancy Pelosi claims to be a Catholic too. The fact that they have politics in common seems to be much more meaningful than the fact that they have religion in common.

  • Lilly Munster

    Ryan is entirely consistent…..he is owned by the Billionaires, knows it, and behaves accordingly. He is not complicated. He is not an mystery or enigma. He is a loyal sheep.

  • super88

    How can the DNC say it is compassionate when more African-American babies in New York City are aborted than born? The face of our democracy would be very different if those babies had been allowed to live. Simple demographics beat Hillary, much more surely than the Russians ever did.

  • Brad Feaker

    more African-American babies in New York City are aborted than born?

    Citation? That sounds remarkably like BS.

  • billwald

    For the last zillion years, God has spontaneously aborted more humans than are conceived but how were the people who wrote the Bible supposed to know that? This century might be the time to re-assess the origin and timing of the human soul.

    If God creates a new soul at the moment of conception or the soul is inherited fro the parents like DNA, then the majority of persons in the next life have never been born. That raises additional questions.

  • Brad Feaker

    Hi Bill – I am sorry but it is biology that cause pregnancies to terminate spontaneously – not some deity. And as for a soul – someone needs to prove this thing even exists before we can have a productive conversation about it.

    Kind Regards

  • http://www.myfullemptynest.wordpress.com/ myfullemptynest

    I do believe God exists, but in no way does God cause pregnancies to terminate.

  • Brad Feaker

    Then if God is omniscient and all powerful why are there miscarriages?

  • http://www.myfullemptynest.wordpress.com/ myfullemptynest

    Like you said, biology.

  • Brad Feaker

    But is your God in control or not? Did he not create us in his image?

    Or are you saying he is actually powerless?

  • http://www.myfullemptynest.wordpress.com/ myfullemptynest

    I believe in the uncontrolling love of God. We are created in God’s image to love. It’s our choice whether to embrace that. This is where I’m leaning… https://uncontrollinglove.com

  • Darius Crist

    Lol. Uncontrolling? “Believe in me or suffer for eternity”. I’m sure glad god doesn’t create unnecessary ultimatums… oh, wait.

  • shipmatewes

    I disagree. If you believe in god and you believe that only he can create a life the since he is also all powerful then it must be him that causes spontaneous abortions(miscarriage). Or maybe he doesn’t create all life because virtually all spontaneous abortions are caused by some sort of something wrong with the fetus so God must not have created it because anything he touches is supposed to be perfect. We know that is not true. In almost all cases of abortion their is something wrong in the mother’s life or surroundings that would make it impossible to raise a healthy well adjusted child and that is also true of rape and incest.

  • Darius Crist

    What?!?!

  • http://www.myfullemptynest.wordpress.com/ myfullemptynest

    Check out Pete Enns book, The Bible Tells Me So; and/or Rob Bell’s, What is the Bible? Some things have been twisted with Western Christianity. The Bible needs to be read in historical context.

  • http://gocart-mozart.blogspot.com gocart mozart

    God is more ‘indifferent’ than the ’cause’ is what you’re saying then?

  • Lilly Munster

    You can’t have it both ways. If you acknowledge God, you must acknowledge his cruelties, insanities and the idiocy of His Perfect Plan.

  • jamesparson

    So perhaps comprehensive sex education and access to various birth control methods would be a good thing? I sounds you would be all for prevention.

  • http://gocart-mozart.blogspot.com gocart mozart

    Only if you sincerely want to reduce abortions.

  • jamesparson

    Think of this way. I don’t like car crashes. I wish there were never car crashes. Teaching safe driving helps to prevent car crashes.

    Even after all that, sometimes they happen and that is when we need seat belts, airbags, and everything else so that the victim of the car crash can just step out of the vehicle and go on with life. As opposed to being disabled for the rest of their life.

  • Martha Anne Underwood

    The electoral college beat Hillary, not simple demographics. Remember she had the majority of the popular vote. Trump had the majority of votes from the electoral college which made him the winner.

  • http://gocart-mozart.blogspot.com gocart mozart

    Your made up facts don’t even support your bullshit conclusion. You are a very muddle-headed liar. Much like your president. Sad

  • Lilly Munster

    Hillary won, dumbass.

  • super88

    Yeah, you just keep telling yourself that. Just because you swear at me doesn’t mean you’re right.

  • Obscurely

    A powerfully prophetic post that Christians of all political stripes need to take to heart …

  • Bob Foy

    The house that is divided against itself cannot stand. The Fox Channel is divided against itself, and the chief “whataboutism” is Sean Hannity who speaks with a forked tongue, and Bill O’Reilly of family values fame paid out millions of dollars for his sexual assaults while denying his guilt, and he said “you are in the no spin zone” andd, which caused my head to spin, and he would close with “we are watching out for you”, no thanks, Bill, I can watch out for myself. There were more perverts on the Fox staff than all other news channels combined (I think) Tucker Carlson has a fixed stare on his face looking utterly confused or astonished, or maybe both. Judge Perino has a permanent “gotcha” look on her face when she’s got absolutely nothing. Methinks the Fox Channel protests too much. I get more news from
    ‘ Stephen Colbert and Jon Stewart, and stand up comedians than I get from the news channels. I’m neither Republican nor Democrat, neither Liberal nor Conservative, and a friend said to me that “you have to be one or the other” and replied I, “says who?” I am a political, Non ideologue at all, a free spirit, if you will without any political baggage. I do not need that slop. I get around without that very well, thank you.

  • super88

    If the stereotype you paint of evangelicals were true, none of us would read this post. But you know it isn’t true, because you’re not stupid. “I love you, but I love them too.” Jesus loves hateful, backwards, racist, deplorable, bitter clingers too. In fact, if you would deign to treat us like human beings, you might find out that we are not all the heartless monsters that the media have taught you to think we are.

    Referring to Bill Clinton and Joe Biden (and Harvey Weinstein, and Bob Menendez, and Anthony Weiner, and on and on) is not just a case of “whataboutism.” It is the reason “those people” in Alabama are so intractable about Roy Moore. They have seen Clinton’s excesses be ignored, so they respond in kind when it comes to Moore. Of course it’s wrong for them to do, but it was wrong for Clinton too.

  • Brad Feaker

    Yeah – because Hillary has molested plenty of kids.

    Totally the same thing. FFS…

  • jamesparson

    I am not sure you are doing a good job defending evangelicals.

  • Kirk Hodges

    I think you’re a very smart person and I bet you could avoid the “I judge you because you’re judging people” paradox very easily.

  • http://gocart-mozart.blogspot.com gocart mozart

    Alabamans support Moore because they are amoral shits who have no problem with pedophilia as long as they get their Christian fascism.

  • super88

    Of course, you know how amoral Alabamans are. They are voting for Moore because of people like you. Christian fascists are bad, but secular fascists are even worse.

  • http://gocart-mozart.blogspot.com gocart mozart

    What’s the deal with the 88? Is it this https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/88

  • super88

    Hmph! You already called me a liar, so you wouldn’t believe me anyway!

  • billwald

    Christian and Evangelical Christian e.g. phony Christian and real Christian? In this century, “Evangelical” Christian has come to mean to the general public, “Kool Aid” Christian.

  • http://buyusedcubes.com Bob Shiloh

    Trying to understand how you seem to be oblivious to your Liberalism, I will respond to your blog in kind:

    1.Today, Republicans need the evangelical vote. By coloring themselves as the choice for God-fearing Christians, they guarantee that poor, white middle America will consistently vote Republican—often against their best interests.
    or
    Today, Democrats, need the illegal immigrant vote. By coloring themselves as the choice for the poor, desperate, undocumented aliens, they guarantee that illegals who are here will vote Democrat when they can.

    2. As Christians have conflated Christianity and conservative politics, they’ve ended up championing things that oppose Christ: nationalism, war, division, racism, hatred.
    or
    As Democrats continually cast Republicans as racists, bigots and climate change deniers they exercise the freedom of speech that others fought and shed blood even while denigrating that service.

    The relationship between conservatism and the church is driving people away from the cross.
    or
    The relationship between Progressives and the church is driving people away from Christ’s teachings.

    3. “But wait,” you might say. “Liberals hate conservatives, too!” You’re right. Some of them do. But honestly, that feeling isn’t held as strongly by liberals as it is by conservatives.
    or
    “But wait,” you might say. “Liberals hate conservatives, too!” You’re right. All of them do. But honestly, that feeling isn’t held as strongly by liberals as it is by conservatives and I know this because my circle of Liberal friends agree with me.

    4. Any criticism of the government, the military, or American policies is considered treasonous (unless, of course, there’s a liberal in the White House).
    or
    Any criticism of the government when there is a Black Liberal in the White House is automatically racist because Liberals do not allow any criticism of Black people. And since Liberal policies are prefect and in line with Jesus there can be no valid criticism of them so of course Conservatives are racist haters, homophobes and mysogangists.

    5. The thing is, I don’t know that many people on the Left who are as committed to anything as conservatives are to Fox News.
    or
    People on the Left are committed to ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, CNN, Washington Post, and the NY Times because these news sources are impeccable and trustworthy and we can believe any and everything they say or print so we have them on all day.

    6. Christianity has allowed itself to be a party to colonialism, slavery, violence, misogyny, racism, genocide, and has actively waged war against science. Every single time that Christendom aligns itself with power structures, the cause of Christ is harmed for generations.
    or
    The US is a secular nation and the second amendment, Freedom of Religion, means Freedom from Religion and any and all references to God, Christ or the bible must be ruthlessly rooted out especially in the schools where Conservative thought must not be allowed at any cost.

    7. 37 percent of evangelicals in Alabama said the allegations would make them more likely to vote for Moore, and 34 said it would have no effect. Why?
    or
    People in Alabama cannot be trusted to watch the news and determine for themselves whether or not the allegations are true.

    8. Don’t be fooled by sitting at the feet of people who say that they’re mine but are teaching you to resent and devalue people who are made in my image.
    or
    People who express a desire to have a country with borders and laws must be from the Evil One.

  • Nimblewill

    Thank you! There is hypocrisy in us all. The Left is quick to blame the Right of theirs without recognizing their own. Plank Eyes, are we all.

  • Matthew Funke

    The Left is quick to blame the Right of theirs without recognizing their own.

    I don’t think anyone here is saying that the Left has no hypocrisy or fault. The problem is that the Right has painted themselves as the more moral (and reflective of the ideals of Christianity) end of the political spectrum, and it’s not.

  • Dachusblot

    Criticizing conservatives does not automatically make one a liberal, first of all.

    1. Immigrants often vote for Democrats because Democrats support policies that are in immigrants’ best interests, and because Republican candidates (especially in recent elections) often set themselves up as hostile to immigrants. On the other hand, conservative, non-immigrant, white Evangelicals often vote for Republicans because of ideological reasons – they will vote Republican in spite of, or even against, their best interests, because it’s part of their cultural identity. Immigrants don’t have a single unified cultural identity like evangelicals do, so that’s a false equivalency.

    2. “As Christians have conflated Christianity and conservative politics” vs “As Democrats continually cast Republicans as racists, bigots and climate change deniers” = how are those two things at all comparable? For your analogy to work, there has to be a clear parallel. (Also, many Republicans are climate change deniers, and proudly so. That’s a provable fact.)

    “they exercise the freedom of speech that others fought and shed blood even while denigrating that service.” = … What? You’re saying that “using freedom of speech in ways I don’t like” is equivalent to “championing un-Christlike things”? I don’t see the connection there. And how is exercising your freedom of speech also denigrating it? You do realize that some of those who fought and shed blood were Democrats, right? (See, that’s the sort of statement that leads to blog posts like this one that accuse conservatives of hating liberals. Conservatives assume that every soldier who fought and died for our freedoms was also a conservative, forgetting that conservatives and liberals and moderates all fight and sacrifice alongside each other for the same causes.)

    “The relationship between Progressives and the church is driving people away from Christ’s teachings.”
    As someone whose Christian faith was saved by the realization that I didn’t have to be tethered to conservative politics in order to follow Christ, I strongly disagree. I wouldn’t be a Christian today if it wasn’t for progressive Christianity’s existence.

    3. “But honestly, that feeling isn’t held as strongly by liberals as it is by conservatives and I know this because my circle of Liberal friends agree with me.”
    OR, you could actually click on that link he put up to the Pew Research Study:

    Today, negative ratings have risen overall (about eight-in-ten of both Republicans and Democrats rate the other party unfavorably), but deeply negative views have more than doubled: 38% of Democrats and 43% of Republicans now view the opposite party in strongly negative terms.
    Overall, 36% of Republicans and Republican leaners say that Democratic policies threaten the nation, while 27% of Democrats and Democratic leaners view GOP policies in equally stark terms.
    For example, 54% of Republicans and 46% of Democrats who have made campaign donations in the past two years describe the other political party as a threat to the nation.”

    I doubt that the Pew Research Center counts as part of his “circle of Liberal friends.”
    And also, just being honest? I have a lot of liberal friends, and I have a lot of conservative family members. And in my experience, my liberal friends tend to assume that conservatives are stupid (because conservative often seem to do things like not actually reading the links in articles) and are going to destroy the country with their incompetency, while my conservative family members tend to assume that liberals are godless evil conspirators trying to destroy the country because Evil. Both are wrong, but one does lead to more vitriol than the other.

    4. “Any criticism of the government when there is a Black Liberal in the White House is automatically racist because Liberals do not allow any criticism of Black people.”
    Lots of liberals criticized Obama for several things. See: The Young Turks.
    The racism accusations come in when politicians seem to oppose things for no good reason other than “Obama did it, so it’s bad.”

    “And since Liberal policies are prefect and in line with Jesus there can be no valid criticism of them so of course Conservatives are racist haters, homophobes and mysogangists.”
    Your logic is impossible to parse. No one said liberal policies are perfect and in line with Jesus, for one thing. The whole point of this article was that religion should NOT be tied to any one political party.
    No one ever said that liberals are beyond criticism, either. You’re arguing against a made-up strawman.
    “You can’t criticize liberals” = “conservatives are racist, homophobes and misogynist”? What??? How did you even get from Point A to Point B?
    Newsflash: the reason conservatives are often cast as racist, homophobes and misogynists is not because they criticize liberals. It’s because they do things like vote for a man who said Mexicans are rapists and he likes to grab women by the pussy, with a vice president who wants to “recondition” gay people to be straight.
    The reason a lot of non-whites, LGBTQ people, and women tend to lean more on the liberal side is because liberals aren’t assholes to them (at least, not as often). Your cause & effect is backwards.

    5. “People on the Left are committed to ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, CNN, Washington Post, and the NY Times because these news sources are impeccable and trustworthy and we can believe any and everything they say or print so we have them on all day.”
    Hahaha, what? His original point was, “Liberals tend to get their news from a variety of sources, while conservatives go just to Fox News.” And you countered that by listing a whole bunch of news sources that liberals listen to? You just proved his point.
    And no, I don’t know any liberals who keep the news and talk radio on all day the way my conservative family keeps Fox News and Rush Limbaugh constantly blaring in the background. Now you’re just projecting.

    6. “The US is a secular nation and the second amendment, Freedom of Religion, means Freedom from Religion and any and all references to God, Christ or the bible must be ruthlessly rooted out especially in the schools where Conservative thought must not be allowed at any cost.”
    The US is a secular nation. Unless you’d rather live in a theocracy, like Saudi Arabia?
    Your rhetoric is hysterical. Also, the 2nd amendment is the one about guns, not religion (though that’s a rather telling slip up). “Freedom of Religion” means that YOU, yourself, are free from having Islam, Judaism, Buddhism and anything else forced upon you — and other people are likewise free from having Christianity forced upon them. Ever hear the phrase “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”? It’s a good phrase. Also, you must believe Christianity is horribly fragile if you think removing Christian slogans from public schools is going to destroy Christianity. Tell me, how would you like it if your kids’ schools started quoting the Quran and forcing your children to pray to Allah? I bet you wouldn’t be very happy about that. Keeping religion out of public schools is meant to be a safeguard against all religious coercion, no matter what religion.
    Also, as someone who teaches in a public school, I assure you that we ARE free to talk about religious texts and figures. I teach English lit, so it’s pretty much inevitable that biblical stuff is going to come up now and then. We’re just not allowed to preach or force our beliefs on other peoples’ kids. Don’t believe everything you see in God’s Not Dead.
    Finally, it’s also quite telling that you conflate “Christianity” with “Conservative thought.” Those two things are not interchangeable.

    7. The question is, why are so many Alabamans willing to believe that there’s a vast liberal conspiracy to smear Roy Moore, instead of the far more plausible scenario that all of these multiple women (most of whom are apolitical or conservative) might actually be telling the truth. It’s not a matter of facts or logic, but of tribalism.

    8. “People who express a desire to have a country with borders and laws must be from the Evil One.”
    Literally no one has ever said this, ever.
    Also, once again, as with most of these points, your counterarguments are completely irrelevant to the original statements from the article. Please, explain to me how this outlandish strawman statement is at all related or equivalent to the sentence you quoted in the article?

    Look, there’s plenty to criticize on both sides of the political aisle. But all of your points here only go to confirm even more what this original article was saying, and somehow you didn’t even address what the original article’s actual point was, which was that unequally yoking religion to any one political party is the surest way to poison your religion.

  • http://buyusedcubes.com Bob Shiloh

    The article does not just criticize conservatives, it presumes to talk for Jesus on the subject as well. I was simply pointing out that there are two sides to all of the points; which I did.

    The major point of the article, as I read it, is that evangelicalism has been duped by the Republican Party. In fact, evangelicals and conservatives completely disgusted with Liberalism have used their political power to elect people who hold Christian values. This upsets Liberals who believe their position is the moral high ground. So enlightened Liberals must find reasons to explain their loss. Thus words like “spell” and constructs like “poor, white middle america” are promoted. These ideas don’t even merit a response as the people have spoken and Liberal politicians have been decimated in the general election and various state elections.

    The bigger concern as I see it and the one I cannot abide without comment is using Christ to somehow suggest that conservatives promote positions that are anti-Christ such as nationalism, war, division, racism and hatred. This is prima facie evidence showing a complete lack of understanding of the people and their values in our country. I would ask this question. What would Jesus do if He were in an abortion clinic watching an endless parade of young women killing their babies? I say He would stop it and chase the doctors and nurses out of the room with more force than He used in the Temple. Liberals believe in abortion and support abortion as if it doesn’t belong on the above list. The Liberal position that life does not exist until the child is born is abhorrent. You want us to take in refugees but discard our children in the toilet.

    To address some of your points by point number:
    1. Immigrants vote for Democrats because of the Democrat strategy to solicit their vote.
    2. In that both positions are lies. And when NFL players use their platform under the guise of free speech to disrespect the country that gave them the abundance they have you see the general uproar that has occurred. Ratings are the proof of that statement. The majority of people do not agree with this tactic.
    3. The author agrees that Liberal hate Conservatives but said he knows Liberals don’t hate as much. Really? The Pew study cited is fine but far too lengthy to be worth the time to review for the support of the author’s comment. If he wanted to he could have done a proper citation.
    4. Obama was the worst President in modern history. He left us with double the national debt, $20 trillion dollars and spent that $10 trillion for what? What is better? Are the major cities of Chicago, Philadelphia, Baltimore and LA any better? Did Obamacare fix the healthcare system or has it failed? Is the VA reformed?I often here that the world respected the USA again under Obama. What utter fallacy and now on conspicuous display as world leaders rally around President Trump. World leaders want and need the US despite its President. Liberal leaders tend to like Obama and conservative leaders ten do like Trump but Obama had them all concerned because they knew Obama would be slow to defend them in the face of aggression. And finally China is going to work with the world to contain North Korea. Where is the proof that any of Obama’s liberal International policies actually worked? Only in the minds of the Liberal press is that possible.

    4A. “The whole point of this article was that religion should NOT be tied to any one political party.” That’s not what I read. If anything it could be that religion should not be tied to the Republican Party.

    “This post isn’t intended to slam anyone with conservative viewpoints. There’s nothing wrong with having a political perspective that skews right. The problem occurs when you believe that your religious and political identity are synonymous. If you think that you’re a conservative because you’re a Christian, this post is for you.”

    4B. “Newsflash: the reason conservatives are often cast as racist, homophobes and misogynists is not because they criticize liberals. It’s because they do things like vote for a man who said Mexicans are rapists and he likes to grab women by the pussy, with a vice president who wants to “recondition” gay people to be straight.” You were doing well until you got to this point. President Trump did not say: “Mexicans are rapists” or “he likes to grab women by the pussy.” Both are inaccurate and duplicitous.

    5. Without Fox News and talk radio conservatives would have no source for conservative viewpoints. Liberals can’t bare opposing opinions that they “know are wrong” so they want to shut down the source of these views. So much for the first amendment supposedly good for NFL players but not for conservatives.

    Finally you concluded, “Look, there’s plenty to criticize on both sides of the political aisle. But all of your points here only go to confirm even more what this original article was saying, and somehow you didn’t even address what the original article’s actual point was, which was that unequally yoking religion to any one political party is the surest way to poison your religion.” Again, that is not the point of the article.

    In conclusion, Jesus would not agree with Liberalism any more than he would agree with Conservatism. Jesus would point to the bible, the Word of God as the place to understand how to lead one’s life.

  • Dachusblot

    You did not do a very good job of arguing that there are “two sides to all of the points,” as many of the alternatives you offered were either false analogies or strawmen arguments, and there wasn’t really a logical consistency to them.

    For example, you start off with this one:

    “Today, Republicans need the evangelical vote. By coloring themselves as the choice for God-fearing Christians, they guarantee that poor, white middle America will consistently vote Republican—often against their best interests.
    or
    Today, Democrats, need the illegal immigrant vote. By coloring themselves as the choice for the poor, desperate, undocumented aliens, they guarantee that illegals who are here will vote Democrat when they can.”

    Which, despite being a false analogy (as I explained in my earlier comment), does sort of make sense as a counter-echo of the original statement. A hypothetical liberal says “Republicans are courting the evangelical vote,” and a hypothetical conservative says, “Yes, well, Democrats are courting the immigrant vote in the same way.” Okay, sure. That is at least an actual analogy, regardless of its factual flaws.

    But then later you make points like this:

    Christianity has allowed itself to be a party to colonialism, slavery, violence, misogyny, racism, genocide, and has actively waged war against science. Every single time that Christendom aligns itself with power structures, the cause of Christ is harmed for generations.
    or
    The US is a secular nation and the second amendment, Freedom of Religion, means Freedom from Religion and any and all references to God, Christ or the bible must be ruthlessly rooted out especially in the schools where Conservative thought must not be allowed at any cost.

    … which is not an actual analogy. The hypothetical liberal says that Christianity has been party to various sins, such as slavery, whenever it tries to align itself with secular power structures. And your hypothetical conservative responds by saying that the US is a secular nation and God/Christ/The Bible/Conservatism (all the same thing?) must be ruthlessly rooted out of our public schools? First of all, your hypothetical conservative would not be saying something like that. That makes no sense. You’ve switched from answering with a hypothetical conservative’s viewpoint to a strawman liberal’s viewpoint. So, basically, instead of countering a liberal argument with a conservative argument, you’re countering a real liberal argument with a fake liberal argument, which does nothing to prove that there are “two sides to all the points”.

    Second of all, trying to discredit the idea that Christianity has got some sins in its past by simply yelling that liberals want to take Christianity out of public schools… doesn’t make any sense at all. The issue of whether Christianity belongs in public schools is unrelated to Christianity’s past sins. It’s a total non-sequitur.

    Continuing on to the numbered points:
    1. “Immigrants vote for Democrats because of the Democrat strategy to solicit their vote.” — Right, by supporting policies that would benefit them. Why is this nefarious? Isn’t this what political parties are supposed to do? The difference is that immigrants vote Democrat because they are hoping Democrats might make their lives better, while Christians vote Republican because voting Republican (i.e. voting anti-liberal) has become part of Evangelical’s cultural identity.

    2. Both positions are lies? “As Christians have conflated Christianity and conservative politics” and “As Democrats continually cast Republicans as racists, bigots and climate change deniers” — those two statements are lies? Who is doing the lying, then? If the Democrats are the liars in the second sentence, then by comparison that would mean the Christians are the liars in the first sentence. So Democrats are lying about Republicans being racist, bigots and climate change deniers, and Christians are lying about Christianity and conservative politics being conflated? That makes no sense. The two sentences are not logical parallels to each other.
    And also, it’s not a lie that Christians have conflated Christianity and conservative politics. You yourself did so in your own comment, when you were complaining about God/Christ/The Bible/Conservatism being rooted out of public schools. You lumped all four of those things together. You proved it’s not a lie.

    3. “The Pew study cited is fine but far too lengthy to be worth the time to review for the support of the author’s comment.” — Well, that’s your fault for being lazy. Don’t complain that he’s basing his statement only on the opinions of his “Liberal friends,” if you’re not going to bother actually reading the research that he provided for you.
    “If he wanted to he could have done a proper citation.” — HE PUT THE LINK RIGHT THERE IN THE ARTICLE. What more do you want? And anyway, what’s the point of doing a proper citation if disingenuous people like you are just going to say “tl;dr”?

    4. Obama wasn’t amazing or anything, but saying he’s the worst president in modern history is laughable hyperbole. Most of those things you listed weren’t even directly his fault. As for Obamacare, it has plenty of problems but it also improved the lives of millions of people, including me. My job did not provide me healthcare, so if it wasn’t for the ACA I would have had no coverage at all because I could not afford the high costs of private insurers. When Trump got elected, partially on the promise of repealing Obamacare, I was actually afraid. I’m lucky enough not to have any serious health problems, but you never know when something will go wrong, and I knew if the ACA got repealed and something happened to me, I would be utterly screwed. I think Obamacare needs reform, because like I said, it has a lot of problems. But Republicans were so set on destroying it instead of fixing it, just because it was “OBAMAcare” and therefore must be evil.

    4A Yes, it’s that religion should not be tied to the Republican Party OR ANY PARTY: “There’s nothing wrong with having a political perspective that skews right. The problem occurs when you believe that your religious and political identity are synonymous.” = I don’t know how that could be any clearer. Right/left, doesn’t matter; the problem is tethering your political beliefs to your religious identity.
    The reason the article is talking about Republicans specifically is because they’re the ones that Christians have entangled themselves with. Nobody thinks that Democrats are the Official Party of Christianity; that’s all the Repubicans’ thing.

    4B: Oh yes, he did:

    “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.”
    “I better use some Tic Tacs just in case I start kissing her. You know, I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything.”

    That’s not even the beginning of the quotes I could mention, either. Those are just two of his most infamous examples.

    5. No one is going to shut down Fox News. They’re incredibly powerful, and the president loves them. Just because liberals criticize them doesn’t mean their freedom of speech is being attacked. Freedom of speech means freedom from being silenced by legal authorities. Obama never tried to shut down Fox News, did he? But Trump repeatedly speaks of suing or shutting down the “fake news” media that criticizes him. Why is that OK? I shouldn’t have to explain this, but I will: it’s different for the president to talk about shutting down a news organization than for ordinary civilians to talk about it, because the president actually has the power to do it.

    To address what you said about abortion:
    “Liberals believe in abortion” = what does that even mean? Liberals believe in abortion, like it’s an ideal or a faith-position? That’s just a weird thing to say. It’s like saying someone “believes in” knee surgery.
    For the record: most liberals don’t like abortion, but they feel that in some cases it’s necessary, and no matter what it should be the mother’s choice and not something forced upon her by the government. And most liberals don’t support late-term abortions except in cases where the mother’s life is threatened. If you want proof, here’s a gallup poll. Since you might not have the patience to actually look through it, I’ll just tell you that on average about 65% of the population thinks abortion should be legal in the first trimester, and about 65% of the population thinks it should be illegal in the second trimester, and about 80% of the population thinks it should be illegal in the last trimester. Only 27% think it should be illegal in the 2nd trimester, and only 14% think it should be illegal in the last trimester. (The rest are “it depends” or “undecided”). Which means that the vast majority of the American population, including liberals, do not want late-term abortions, except perhaps in specific extreme cases where the mother’s life is at risk.
    Personally, I consider myself pro-life, but I can’t support Republican policies when it comes to abortions. Because I know from studying history that making all abortions illegal will not make them go away; it will only drive women to shady back-alley abortions, or to self-induced home abortions, which can lead to serious injury and death. A better solution would be to take action to prevent a need for abortions in the first place, with better sex ed, easier access to birth control, less cultural shame around pregnancy, reforming the adoption system, and providing more economic support for mothers. But Republicans consistently either sabotage these things, or don’t care. I’m not saying that Democrats are perfect on this issue either, but I see more hope for improvement in their policies than in Republicans’.

    Overall, most of your arguments are very emotion-driven, and I get the feeling you don’t know very many liberals in real life. I happen to know quite a mixture of people, from extreme conservatives (my family) to extreme liberals (some of my college friends) to moderates, center-lefties and center-righties (pretty much the description of my 3 best friends). I used to be a strong conservative myself, but I was always a little uneasy with the fact that there was an implied rule, at least among my family members, that if I ever strayed from voting Republican it would be a violation of my Christian faith. I always sensed there was something blasphemous in suggesting that Jesus belonged to one political party no matter what. When I got a broader circle of friends and became a little less sheltered, I found that many of my old conservative beliefs didn’t hold up for me any more, and I went through a spiritual crisis because I believed that changing my political stance meant I also had to abandon my faith, which was an integral part of my identity. Luckily I discovered at just the right time in my life that there are many Christians who broke out of that strict conservative culture while still maintaining their faith. The reason this article is addressing conservatives/Republicans directly is because THEY are the ones who have convinced Christians that its their spiritual duty to vote for them. Democrats have not attempted to make themselves the Official Party of Christianity, so it wouldn’t make any sense to criticize Christians for being too attached to Democrats. But if the tables were turned and Christianity somehow became intertwined with the Democratic Party, that would be just as problematic. No political party is correct about everything; all of them have their crooks and liars; and more importantly, all of them are about POWER, always. Christians should be free to vote however they like and not be judged by other Christians; but even more importantly, Christians should not be seeking to gain political power by allying themselves to a secular party. Religion mixed with political power is almost always a toxic combination, both for the government and for the faith.

  • http://buyusedcubes.com Bob Shiloh

    In no particular order:
    The Pew Study appears to be over 100 pages long. If the study backs up the author’s belief i don’t see it. A proper cite would at the lease cite the page number.
    You said Trump called Mexicans rapists. That is not what he said. He qualified it very tightly, “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best….” It is you that decided Trump called Mexicans rapists even with the quote in front of you.
    When I said, “The US is a secular nation and the second amendment, Freedom of Religion, means Freedom from Religion and any and all references to God, Christ or the bible must be ruthlessly rooted out especially in the schools where Conservative thought must not be allowed at any cost”, it was said as a more descriptive example of what Liberals are have done and are actively doing; rather that the author’s comment about what he believes conservative have championed: nationalism, war, division, racism, hatred. Who believes conservatives champion racism except Liberals.
    Obama complained many times about Fox news.Do you know he met with Fox to complain about Hannity? I know you did not. Did you know Obama had Fox’s James Rosen’s parents phone tapped! For that he got called out by the media. Trump has every right to complain about the media because they have become the voice of the Democrat Party. The media is just not used to being put in their place and they can’t stand it.
    Abortion is evil. Liberals believe they have a right to abortion. “The Democratic Party strongly and unequivocally supports Roe v. Wade…” You said, “most liberals don’t support late-term abortions” but your party does. I am not suggesting that abortions be made illegal again because it is too late for that. I am suggesting that your party does and is very clear about it.

  • Matthew Funke

    You said Trump called Mexicans rapists. That is not what he said. He qualified it very tightly, “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best….” It is you that decided Trump called Mexicans rapists even with the quote in front of you.

    You left off the end of the quote there. Here’s some more — note the parts I’ve emphasized. “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. … They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.” The simplest way to understand this is pretty straightforward, logically speaking: “People coming here from Mexico are rapists.” Another way of saying that is its logical equivalent: “Mexicans are rapists.” I don’t see any way that tight qualification helps you here.

    Who believes conservatives champion racism except Liberals.

    Of course it would be a mistake to insist that all conservatives are racist. However, conservatives were willing to tolerate racism in their preferred Presidential candidate. And when a racist rises to power (e.g., David Duke), he’s nearly always conservative. The notion that racists find a more welcoming place in conservativism isn’t a notion invented out of whole cloth.

    Obama complained many times about Fox news.

    Yes. But complaining is not the same as threatening to take them off the air, as when Trump threatened NBC News, or posting a video depicting himself beating up the media outlet he didn’t like, as Trump did with CNN.

    Did you know Obama had Fox’s James Rosen’s parents phone tapped!

    I’m going to need a citation for that that isn’t Fox News.

    I am not suggesting that abortions be made illegal again because it is too late for that.

    What do you think should be done? Be specific.

  • http://buyusedcubes.com Bob Shiloh

    Your hatred of Trump blinds you to any rational discussion of him. But as to the rest:

    Politico
    Report: DOJ seized phone records of James Rosen’s parents
    By DYLAN BYERS 05/22/2013 08:04 AM EDT
    James Rosen’s parents were among those who had their phone records seized by the Dept. of Justice during its investigation into the 2009 North Korea intelligence leak, according to Fox News host Bret Baier.

    “The seized toll numbers relate to James’ parents home in Staten Island,” Baier, a colleague of Rosen, reported on Tuesday evening.

    The revelation came shortly after The New Yorker’s Ryan Lizza reported that the DOJ had also seized phone records of numbers associated with two White House staffers and at least five Fox News reporters while monitoring Rosen.

    As to abortion:
    1. Start a Public Service program extolling the benefits of motherhood; showing the damage done by abortion and the inhumanity of taking the life of an unborn child.
    2. Create a financial incentive for young mothers to keep their children.
    3. Defund Planned Parenthood’s abortions activities while forcing them to continue all their other health services.
    4. Allow Church Groups to protest near abortion centers and remove the impediments placed on such activities.
    5. Limit the physical number of abortions one doctor can provide per year.

  • Matthew Funke

    Well, you didn’t source this, but we’ll take it at face value. So far, it’s a citation that the DoJ wiretapped James Rosen; I didn’t think this was contested. What citation do you have that Obama did this, as you asserted? I mean, it happened under his watch, but do you have anything more direct?

    Your hatred of Trump blinds you to any rational discussion of him.

    Prove it. Present some rational discussion, and we’ll see how it goes.

  • http://buyusedcubes.com Bob Shiloh

    It’s not a surprise that you didn’t know about the James Rosen wiretap because the fake news you watch didn’t bother to report it because the station’s you watch are just extensions of the Democratic Party and have no news value anymore.

  • Matthew Funke

    So that’s a “no”, then?

  • http://buyusedcubes.com Bob Shiloh

    What exactly is it you want to discuss about Trump?

  • Matthew Funke

    Let’s close one subject before resurrecting the next. Is that a “no”?

  • http://buyusedcubes.com Bob Shiloh

    Fine with me. What is the subject again. I’t not clear from your responses:

  • Matthew Funke

    Are you, or are you not, able to come up with a citation that shows that the blame can be placed more directly on Obama than the one you copied and pasted?

    (You’re the one who changed the subject.)

  • http://buyusedcubes.com Bob Shiloh

    Obama ordered the Justice Department to harass Rosen:

    According to a Washington Post article President Obama’s spokesperson, Jim Carney, admitted Obama ordered the Justice Department to pursue Rosen as Eric Holder disagreed with the President.

    Washington Post
    “Justice Department’s scrutiny of Fox News reporter James Rosen in leak case draws fire”
    By Ann E. Marimow May 20, 2013

    “Journalists, First Amendment watchdogs and government transparency advocates reacted with outrage Monday to the revelation that the Justice Department had investigated the news gathering activities of a Fox News reporter as a potential crime in a probe of classified leaks.”….

    “The reactions followed a Washington Post report on the inner workings of a Justice Department investigation into a possible leak of classified information about North Korea.”….

    “The investigation brought another controversy to the doorstep of the White House, where press secretary Jay Carney on Monday was besieged during his daily briefing with questions on whether President Obama believes it is ever a crime for reporters to solicit information from a source….

    “Citing the ongoing criminal investigation, Carney refused to answer most questions about the Kim case. He said that the president “believes very strongly in the need for reporters to be able to pursue investigative journalism” but that he “also has to be mindful of the need to protect classified information because of our national security interests.”…

    “Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. told the House Judiciary Committee last week that prosecuting the press for disclosing classified material is not “wise policy.”

  • http://buyusedcubes.com Bob Shiloh

    Obama ordered the Justice Department to harass Rosen.

    According to a Washington Post article President Obama’s spokesperson, Jim Carney, admitted Obama ordered the Justice Department to pursue Rosen as Eric Holder disagreed with the President.

    Washington Post
    “Justice Department’s scrutiny of Fox News reporter James Rosen in leak case draws fire”
    By Ann E. Marimow May 20, 2013

    “Journalists, First Amendment watchdogs and government transparency advocates reacted with outrage Monday to the revelation that the Justice Department had investigated the news gathering activities of a Fox News reporter as a potential crime in a probe of classified leaks.”….

    “The reactions followed a Washington Post report on the inner workings of a Justice Department investigation into a possible leak of classified information about North Korea.”….

    “The investigation brought another controversy to the doorstep of the White House, where press secretary Jay Carney on Monday was besieged during his daily briefing with questions on whether President Obama believes it is ever a crime for reporters to solicit information from a source….

    “Citing the ongoing criminal investigation, Carney refused to answer most questions about the Kim case. He said that the president “believes very strongly in the need for reporters to be able to pursue investigative journalism” but that he “also has to be mindful of the need to protect classified information because of our national security interests.”…

    “Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. told the House Judiciary Committee last week that prosecuting the press for disclosing classified material is not “wise policy.”

  • Matthew Funke

    Ah, there we go. Thanks for that. I don’t know why you brought Obama up in the first place, but I suppose we can put this particular matter to bed. At the moment, it’s at the level of hearsay, but that’s good enough, I guess, for a tangent in conversation; after all, we don’t want to suggest that a person’s wrongdoing is justified by a different person’s wrongdoing, do we? That would just be weird.

    Now, of course, is the other problem — that you seem to imagine that whether or not Trump is a racist and a misogynist is contingent on some kind of hatred you imagine that I have for him. The man is a racist and a misogynist, not based on my opinion of him one way or the other, but based on words that he has uttered. If a person is a racist and a misogynist, based on his own words, is it not appropriate to say so, especially if that person is aiming for a role in leadership?

  • J.D.

    As to abortion:
    1. Start a Public Service propaganda program extolling the benefits of motherhood; showing the damage done by abortion and the inhumanity of taking the life of an unborn child.

    Fixed that for ya. Because the facts are that they’re less likely to complete their education and if they do it will take much longer and cost much more, they’re considerably more likely to live in poverty, it will be drastically harder to get out of poverty if they’re already there, they’re less likely to be hired and will more than likely face considerable job discrimination, their bodies WILL be permanently damaged by pregnancy (happens in 100% of pregnancies, even the textbook ones), and they stand a not insignificant (and ever growing) chance of death in gestation or childbirth as proven by our shameful and skyrocketing maternal mortality rates.

    2. Create a financial incentive for young mothers to keep their children.

    Hah! Like that’s going to happen from same the people who DEFUNDED children’s healthcare, are stripping their schools of resources as fast as they can, are rolling back right and left job protections for their parents thus worsening financial stability for families, are poisoning their environment and drinking water, and begrudge them the food in their very mouths.

    3. Defund Planned Parenthood’s abortions activities while forcing them to continue all their other health services.

    Planned Parenthoods abortion activities already aren’t government funded. Their other health services are (except where removed by overreaching rightwing legislatures to the detriment of poor patients.) And just as a side note, you can’t FORCE them to do diddly squat. Medical professionals aren’t slaves subject to your whims.

    4. Allow Church Groups to protest near abortion centers and remove the impediments placed on such activities.

    Hope they like the taste of pepper spray/mace and they’ve got lawyers on retainer for the assault/battery cases that get filed against them. Because besides being utterly immoral, the harassment and abuse and terrorizing of women seeking medical care and the providers who provide said care is NOT legal.

    5. Limit the physical number of abortions one doctor can provide per year.

    Exactly what purpose does this serve for the PATIENT? (remember her?). And how does this not constitute an undue burden to access? Do explain in detail. If a woman needs an abortion but the doctor who would perform it is up against some arbitrarily imposed limit are we supposed to just tell her she must die? If that’s your idea of a selling feature, I’ve gotta say, it’s not gonna play in Peoria. Plus, it’s unconstitutional.

  • http://buyusedcubes.com Bob Shiloh

    Matthew ask for my opinion and I gave it. To your comments I say:
    1. “Because the facts are that they’re…” Loose fragment not connected . Who is the they? Some endangered species.
    2. Argumentative without purpose.
    3.Unsubstantiated fact coupled with typical Leftist feelgood bluster.
    4. Not worried about hurting protesters or killing children – a Leftist position that will continue to Crush the democrat party.
    5. Ditto.

  • J.D.

    1. The they…women faced with unwanted children from unplanned/unwanted pregnancies. Figured that was fairly self explanatory. It’s not like we were discussing anybody else.
    2. Sorry you find facts argumentative. For anyone claiming to be Pro-Life they actually ought to be extremely disturbing, since without the healthcare and with all the degradation of their environments, a lot of those kids will actually die quite horrific yet preventable deaths and others forced to suffer through lives not worth living. But then history has shown that so-called ‘Pro-Life’ has never really been about lives or children or anything but policing and controlling and restricting the rights of women.
    3. Not unsubstantiated, but utterly factual. Google ‘Hyde Amendment’. Read it and educate yourself.
    4. Hey, who said I wasn’t worried bout them being hurt? And I did state that I hoped they had lawyers. But if you go about harassing and frightening people who are going about their private business then you, just like any other thug, run the very real risk of those people defending themselves (e.g. pepper spray, martial arts, etc.), as they are legally entitled so to do, and you also run the risk of getting your behind sued off in court and possible criminal prosecution. BTW…all children everywhere have been born, so in abortions nobody’s killing children at all. Fetuses aren’t children.
    5. You didn’t answer my questions. I repeat…what does your plan do for the PATIENT? How does it NOT constitute an unconstitutional undue burden to access?

  • http://buyusedcubes.com Bob Shiloh

    1. So you admit to being a party to mass murder. Using abortion as a form of birth control is insidious; teaching others to do that is evil.
    2. Unlike you I am Pro-Life I don’t claim to be. What country are you living in? Horrific deaths, lives not worth living. I am afraid you may be sick if you believe that garbage. This country is the most environmentally clean country in the world by far. This country has provided healthcare for children who could not afford it since before you were born. Women rights do not include killing their children. That is just Leftist propaganda. But women have the right to abortion and that is not changing. Conservatives just don’t want their taxes to pay to facilitate abortion. You can’t understand that simple position but you will.
    3. If Planned Parenthood wasn’t using taxpayer money to facilitate abortions they would open their books to prove it. But they won’t so they will be forced to soon as well.
    4. Tell that nonsense about unborn children to someone else. It casts you as a complete and utter fool. Even God accuses you for that position. But you have no idea do you?
    5. My points were in answer to Matthew not you. You are beyond redemption like most on the Left.

  • Dachusblot

    “The Pew Study appears to be over 100 pages long. If the study backs up the author’s belief i don’t see it.”

    Wow, that’s funny, because it only took me like 5 minutes (maybe less) to click on the link in the article and look through the study to find relevant quotes related to his point, which I used in my original response to you. There’s no excuse for being lazy. Your original complaint was that he didn’t base his argument on any research other than his “Liberal Friends,” which was clearly untrue. Just the fact that the link was there is enough to prove that. You can’t complain “YOU DIDN’T DO ANY RESEARCH,” and then, when the research is pointed out to you, whine, “That doesn’t count. It’s TOO MUCH research!”

    “You said Trump called Mexicans rapists. That is not what he said.”

    Okay, then. Hypothetically, let’s imagine that Hillary or Obama came out and said this: “When these Christian churches send out their people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not like you. They’ve got a lot of problems. They’re bringing hate. They’re bringing bigotry. They’re child molesters. And some, I assume, are good people.”

    Would you be okay with that? Because grammatically & structurally, it’s exactly the same, with the same qualifications in the original Trump quote. So, according to your own logic, you should have no reason to be offended by this quote. And yet I imagine, if Hillary or Obama ever did say something like this (which they wouldn’t), they’d get a lot of anger and backlash for it, and rightfully so, because it’s a hateful and stupid thing to say.

    … it was said as a more descriptive example of what Liberals are have done and are actively doing; rather that the author’s comment about what he believes conservative have championed: nationalism, war, division, racism, hatred.

    You clearly didn’t understand my criticism. I was trying to point out that your whole argument is inconsistent. You started off by countering the author’s liberal comments with parallel conservative comments (“Republicans court the evangelical vote” vs. “Democrats court the immigrant vote”), but then digressed into countering the author’s genuine liberal comments with your own strawman liberal comments (“Christians have sinned by allying themselves with political power” vs. “We should take God out of our schools!!!”). If you were attempting to prove that there are two sides to each point, then you failed.

    “Who believes conservatives champion racism except Liberals.”

    Who believes liberals hate Christians except conservatives?

    Obama complained many times about Fox news.

    Yeah, I’m aware of that. That’s why I brought it up. He didn’t like them, and they didn’t like him. But he didn’t try to shut them down, did he? He didn’t threaten to sue them, did he? He didn’t threaten to “open up our libel laws” in order to silence them, now did he? And he didn’t obsess and whine about them constantly on Twitter, did he? There was never even a threat that Fox News would be shut down.

    Did you know Obama had Fox’s James Rosen’s parents phone tapped! For that he got called out by the media.

    Correction: the US Dept of Justice targeted several reporters, with James Rosen being the most notable one, in attempts to prevent leaks to the public about military operations. It was an overstepping of boundaries, yes, and they were rightfully criticized for it, even by *gasp* Liberal Media Outlets like the “Failing New York Times” and the Washington Post. But guess what? That whole thing was about stopping leaks. Obama himself STILL never made it his mission to discredit Fox News as a whole just because he didn’t like what they said about him. Yet that’s what Trump does constantly.

    And anyway, you know who else really hates leaks, and hates the media for releasing information about US military operations to the public? The Trump administration. That’s one thing Trump & Obama would agree on, amazingly enough. So, at best, your argument is that Trump is no better than Obama on this topic. Whoo.

    “The Democratic Party strongly and unequivocally supports Roe v. Wade…” You said, “most liberals don’t support late-term abortions” but your party does.

    Supporting Roe v Wade does not automatically mean supporting late-term abortions. Surely you must understand that being pro-choice does not mean you automatically support all late-term abortions??? Most Democrats, including Al Gore, Bernie Sanders and Obama, take a position similar to mine: abortion is unfortunate, but the government shouldn’t force mothers to carry to term, and we should instead focus on reducing the need for abortions in the first place. Hillary Clinton supported Roe v Wade, but historically she has also supported restrictions on late-term abortions with exceptions for the health & safety of the mother. And at any rate, most abortions that happen at that late stage happen because of health reasons. Do some research; things aren’t as black and white as you think they are.

    Abortion is evil.

    Forcing a woman to carry her rapist’s child for 9 months is evil. Forcing a woman who already has more kids than she can support to have another one is evil. Forcing a woman who has severe chronic health issues to have children is evil.
    Bringing children into a world where they will not be properly cared for is evil.
    Defunding government assistance programs designed to help support these mothers and children is evil.
    Working to make birth control harder and harder to access for women who don’t want, or can’t support, children is evil.
    Refusing to raise the minimum wage so that working mothers can actually support their children without government assistance is evil.
    Perpetuating a culture where women are so ashamed of their pregnancy that they will seek abortions out of sheer terror, is evil.

    It’s easy to just say “abortion is evil,” but what would you say to a 14-year old girl who got impregnated by her abusive father? What would you say to a 16-year old girl who was pressured into sex by her boyfriend and didn’t understand how to protect herself because no one ever taught her? What would you say to a mother living in poverty, who already has three kids she can barely feed, and now is faced with a fourth one because her husband decided not to use protection? What would you say to a drug addict who can barely take care of herself, much less a kid? What would you say to someone like my best friend, who is married but has severe chronic health issues that would make her incapable of taking care of a baby?

    Would you wish those babies to be born into any of those situations — born to a psychologically scarred teen mother, or born into poverty & starvation, or born to a drug addict, or born to someone who is physically incapable of giving them the love and attention they deserve? What will become of those babies?

    And you can say, “Well, those mothers should just carry the babies to term and put them up for adoption.” But there are health issues and expenses that can arise all during the pregnancy, not to mention the emotional toll; the mother could also lose her job and/or have to drop out of school; she may also be part of a community that will shun and shame her. And then you have the adoption system itself, which is severely flawed in many ways…

    It’s complicated.

    Like I said, I consider myself pro-life, in the sense that I want as many people to live, and live well, as possible. But I’m pro-choice in the sense that I realize this issue is complicated, and simply laying down a strict government ban on abortions is not going to solve the problem. In fact, it would probably just make it worse. And I think it’s absolutely foolish to focus so much on overturning Roe v Wade, as if that would magically fix everything, at the expense of so many other important issues.

  • http://buyusedcubes.com Bob Shiloh

    Not so. I had no complaints. He admitted his liberal friends agreed with him and that no one would believe him. He mentioned the study without a proper cite. You have read it and still no direct quote out of 100 pages. The study itself proves nothing in this day and age unless you care to check the research.

    Think Kate Steinle and you might understand what the President was expressing your linguistic semantics notwithstanding.

    The Left hates God, religion and our country in that order. As for Liberals who are Progressives they are included in that group.

    Hillary would never clarify where she stood on late term abortions. If she did i never saw it. Her beliefs are simply statements of convenience. She has no values or principles other than money and power.

    As to this nonsense,
    “Forcing a woman to carry her rapist’s child for 9 months is evil. Forcing a woman who already has more kids than she can support to have another one is evil. Forcing a woman who has severe chronic health issues to have children is evil.
    Bringing children into a world where they will not be properly cared for is evil.
    Defunding government assistance programs designed to help support these mothers and children is evil.
    Working to make birth control harder and harder to access for women who don’t want, or can’t support, children is evil.
    Refusing to raise the minimum wage so that working mothers can actually support their children without government assistance is evil.
    Perpetuating a culture where women are so ashamed of their pregnancy that they will seek abortions out of sheer terror, is evil.”,
    I simply say BULLSHIT. And it’s not complicated it is murder for the convenience of sex without protection. There are over 800,000 abortions this year so far in the US and only 10% of those fall in any defensible category. It is our greatest national sin and we will not escape the consequences of that sin. You are Pro Life and Pro Choice? Amazing Liberal doublespeak I would say.

    Society needs to change its values and start standing up for Life. Laws are not the answer for they have failed us. Only God can change our hearts but right now the Liberals are not listening are they?

  • Dachusblot

    “The Left hates God, religion and our country in that order. As for Liberals who are Progressives they are included in that group.”

    And this is the reason why you’re not worth arguing with anymore. You don’t care about having a genuine discourse. Nothing I say will make a difference because you are convinced that anyone who disagrees with you is a one-dimensional cartoon villain who hates God and America for no reason other than Evil.

    You are the reason why this blog post was addressed to conservatives. Because conservatives have convinced themselves that being liberal means being anti-God.

    For the record:
    1. “Not so. I had no complaints.” False. You initially countered his argument by suggesting that his statement was not founded on facts, when it clearly was, and he provided you an easy link to those facts, which you conveniently ignored. I listed several direct quotes from the study in my very first comment to you, which you didn’t pay attention to because you’re not interested in genuine discourse.
    2. I don’t know who Kate Steinle is, and you didn’t actually answer my point at all.
    3. She did too clarify. She talked about it clearly in at least one of the debates. If you didn’t hear, it was probably because you weren’t listening.
    4. Cite your sources, hypocrite.
    5. You didn’t actually address any of the situations I brought up that fall outside of “murder for the convenience of sex without protection,” nor the fact that not enough is being done to actually help children who are born into such miserable circumstances, or their mothers. Not that I expected you to. Acknowledging that the situation is not black-and-white would threaten to topple your carefully constructed worldview.
    6. I’m “pro-life” in the general, non-political sense of “I want as many people to live, and live well, as possible,” and not in the sense of “I will only ever vote straight Republican because Roe v Wade.” However, if I was asked in a political survey, I’d say I was pro-choice, because the terms “pro-life” and “pro-choice” obviously have very specific political meanings and I understand that. But I think I made my position pretty clear.
    7. “Society needs to change its values and start standing up for Life.” Yes, I agree. So I assume that means you are going to support politicians that want to help the poor, make healthcare more available, and stop gun violence, right?
    8. “The Liberals are not listening are they?” Says the person who ignored at least half of my points.

    Yeah, I’m out. Off to go do my usual Evil Liberal thing of hating God and plotting to destroy America. Mwahahaha.
    I pray God will work on your heart and help you realize one day that the world is not out to get you, but that we are all just struggling to do our best here together, and the only way is to love each other instead of hating.

  • http://buyusedcubes.com Bob Shiloh

    1. The mere statement that both groups hate each other but one less than the other is absurd on its face.These are your points to prove Liberals don’t hate Conservatives as much as Conservatives hate Liberals? I don’t think they support your argument in the least! They are within the margin of error.

    “Today, negative ratings have risen overall (about eight-in-ten of both Republicans and Democrats rate the other party unfavorably), but deeply negative views have more than doubled: 38% of Democrats and 43% of Republicans now view the opposite party in strongly negative terms.
    Overall, 36% of Republicans and Republican leaners say that Democratic policies threaten the nation, while 27% of Democrats and Democratic leaners view GOP policies in equally stark terms.
    For example, 54% of Republicans and 46% of Democrats who have made campaign donations in the past two years describe the other political party as a threat to the nation.”

    2. You don’t know Kate Steinle because your choice of news is fake news. She is just one of the many people killed by an illegal immigrant who returned to this country six times.

    3. I watched her debates and her press conferences. She was asked that direct question and she deflected to “a woman and her doctor.” Why? Because she is as all politicians a liar and a thief.

    4. Planned Parenthood says abortion is a small part of their services but in fact it is the major part of their revenue. From the AZ Republic July 14, 2017 article, “In terms of patients, Planned Parenthood served 2.4 million people last year and provided 328,348 abortions, according to its annual report. That works out to 13.7 percent of patients….Abortion services made up about a quarter of Planned Parenthood Arizona medical expenses (about $2.2 million) and more than a fifth of revenue (about $3 million).
    That’s 25% of their Revenue – no wonder they don’t want it reported!

    Out of the 30 odd people I respond to on these sites you were only the third who refrained from name calling and condesenscion. A label you no longer hold.

  • swbarnes2

    Where is your evidence that a significantly high number of illegal immigrants vote?

    Is it “casting” someone as racist when they literally say racist things? Trump was sued by the US government for refusing to rent to black people. Are you sincerely arguing that it is wrong for people to point this out, on the grounds that “casting” people as racist is more wrong than carrying out racist policies?

  • http://buyusedcubes.com Bob Shiloh

    I did not say a significantly high number of illegal immigrants vote, I said, “Immigrants vote for Democrats because of the Democrat strategy to solicit their vote.”
    I believe that Liberals say Conservatives are racists, homophobes and misoganists to try and marginalize them, destroy their character and prevent them from being elected.

  • Matthew Funke

    I believe that Liberals say Conservatives are racists, homophobes and misoganists to try and marginalize them, destroy their character and prevent them from being elected.

    Well, when the person in question (e.g., Trump) is a racist and a misogynist, how should that be accurately communicated?

  • http://buyusedcubes.com Bob Shiloh

    The person in question is not Trump. It is you and your liberal leanings that prevent you from understanding that you lost and need to accept that. Calling President Trump names is funny now that all the Liberals on on parade for actual sexual misconduct.

  • Matthew Funke

    Well, then, let’s talk Trump. He’s a racist and a misogynist, and that’s true regardless of his Presidential win. How should these character traits be accurately communicated?

    (And don’t try to change the subject. We’re talking about Trump’s misdeeds, not whether or not they were done by a particular “side”.)

  • http://buyusedcubes.com Bob Shiloh

    Ask and answered. Come back to me when the Special Counsel charges him with racism and misogyny.

  • Matthew Funke

    Ask and answered.

    I’ve seen no answer. Only bluster. All heat, no light.

    Come back to me when the Special Counsel charges him with racism and misogyny.

    No need. He proudly boasts these things about himself.

  • http://gocart-mozart.blogspot.com gocart mozart
  • http://buyusedcubes.com Bob Shiloh

    Read that article. Not impressed:
    1. Which of these women have signed an affidavit under oath?
    2. Which of these women are suing Trump for sexual harassment?

  • swbarnes2

    You wrote “Democrats, need the illegal immigrant vote. By coloring themselves as the choice for the poor, desperate, undocumented aliens, they guarantee that illegals who are here will vote Democrat when they can.”.

    It’s right there. You lie by omission when you deny this. You are a liar. You are so fundamentally dishonest, you can’t even represent your own words honestly.

    If illegal immigrants do not vote insignificant numbers, then it makes no sense to appeal to them.

    Democrats need the votes of Americans who are eligible to vote. If you mean that Democrats need the votes of naturalized citizens, then that’s fine, but I take it that you think it is wrong and wicked for a political party to care about the needs of Americans who are not “real” Americans, right? Politicians should only care about straight white Christians, and everyone else is worthless sh*t who should thank their lucky stars not to be living in ghettos and killed by cops for minor infractions?

    Liberals say that conservatives are homophobes and misogynists and racist because of their actions, and the policies they carry out.

    If you think that it’s not racist to refuse to rent to black tenants be honest and SAY SO PLAINLY. If you think that grabbing women by the p*ssy is okay behavior, SAY SO PLAINLY. Go to your wife, or your sister, or your daughter, tell her “If someone grabs you by the p*ssy, good for them!” Tell us “If someone grabbed my daughter’s crotch in school against her will, I would look her in the eye and tell her “You are not a person, you are a p*ssy”. If this is such a wonderfully healthy woman-respecting attitude for conservatives to hold, confirm for us that you hold it proudly!

    If you are one of those conservatives who cheers the actions of Ron Moore, say so proudly!

    If you are an honest person, you will have no trouble complying. It’s very simple. Just be honest and forthright.

  • http://buyusedcubes.com Bob Shiloh

    I don’t think you are reading my reply correctly. I said, “”Immigrants vote for Democrats because of the Democrat strategy to solicit their vote.” You deny this?

    You said, “I take it that you think it is wrong and wicked for a political party to care about the needs of Americans who are not “real” Americans, right?” Democrats do not care about anybody or anything except power and staying in power. Ask John Conyers why he is still clinging to his position at his age.

    You said, “Liberals say that conservatives are homophobes and misogynists and racist because of their actions, and the policies they carry out.” This is elf serving and hysterical hyperbole masking the true intent of the Left.

    You said if I am an honest person because you like all Liberals you think you hold the moral high ground. Let’s see who is in the news recently actually grabbing women and/or molesting them: Bill Clinton, Al Franken, Joe Biden, John Conyers. Trump I believe said you could grab Hollywood women not that he did like the aforementioned democrat Icons who have been sued and paid for this behavior and some have taken pictures of this conduct.

    Trump denied that he refused to rent to Black people and people in his company are on record agreeing with him. The suit was brought and settled with admission of guilt. So Leftists, like you, feel justified because you have one standard for the President and another for your party. The people have spoken on this topic and did not agree with you.

  • http://gocart-mozart.blogspot.com gocart mozart

    Black people are smart enough to figure out which party is against them and vote accordingly. Same with Mexicans, Muslims and so on.

  • http://buyusedcubes.com Bob Shiloh

    So you are saying that 8% of the black voters are stupid because they did not drink the cool aid?

    “Trump claimed 29 percent of the Hispanic vote on Tuesday compared to Romney’s 27 percent in 2012. With blacks, exit polls show Trump claimed 8 percent of the vote to the previous Republican nominee’s 6 percent.”

  • Rusty Horn

    Jesus Christ, man, have a proofreader redo this for you. The grammar in this thing is truly painful, and it adversely affects the great power of its message.

  • Jayson Bradley

    Thanks, Rusty. I’ll work on that.

  • Nimblewill

    This article would have been better served if you had called out “all” politically dependent people, both democrat and republican. Instead it only further divides because it comes across that one side is better than the other.

  • Jayson Bradley
  • reliefpitcher

    I think Nimblewill is right here. Some beautiful and powerful projections of what Jesus would say. But, they are wrapped in negative assumptions about conservative evangelicals that appear based on broad generalizations and the author’s experience in a small community. This kind of writing, which ascribes to the other side ill will (more conservatives hate liberals than vice-a-versa) or ignorance (poor whites vote against their own interests) just widens the understanding gap and divides. That’s mainly what this piece accomplishes and that’s disappointing. Still, glad I read it.

  • http://www.commonbondmusic.com/ Mike Oliver

    “But wait,” you might say. “Liberals hate conservatives, too!” You’re right. Some of them do. But honestly, that feeling isn’t held as strongly by liberals as it is by conservatives.

    Really? Judging from the majority of the articles I’ve read in the Progressive Christian Blogs section of patheos, I would have a hard time believing that (like an article I read a couple months ago where the author offered a reasoned case to perpetrate serious violence against anyone holding views contrary to the progressive Christian perspective). Frankly, exhibition of grace in this community of believers seems in short supply (which might be ‘why’ your ‘message’ isn’t resonating with the people you believe need to hear it).

  • Dachusblot

    I hang out with progressive Christians all the time, and read a lot of the progressive Christian blogs on Patheos, and have never once heard anyone suggest we should use violence against people who hold different views. In fact, progressives tend to lean toward non-violent solutions most of the time, and will often chastise people on their own “team” for using violent rhetoric. The worst I’ve seen some of my progressive friends suggest is that red states should secede from the union, and usually if anyone says that a whole bunch of other progressives will quickly jump in to say that’s not a fair or good solution. (Also, lots of conservatives like to talk about secession too, so…)

    The only article I can imagine you are referring to is one I saw a while back that suggested it would be okay to punch NAZIS. But, uh… if you are conflating “anyone holding views contrary to the progressive Christian perspective” and “NAZIS,” then you have a much harsher view of non-progressives than most progressives do.

  • reliefpitcher

    This argument that more conservatives hate liberals than vice-a-versa, is pointless and detracts from the seriousness of the author’s overall message. Not important, but the ill will goes both ways depending upon the group and the issue. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/09/why-liberals-arent-as-tolerant-as-they-think-215114

  • YellowBird

    “While liberals tend to get their news from a variety of sources, nearly half of all conservatives get theirs solely from Fox News. Many also seek out ‘more conservative’ sources like Breitbart…
    I know many Christians who have Fox News blasting away in their home 24-hours a day. And even if you’re not actively listening, there’s no way that your subconscious can hear a constant stream of angry people… and believe that it doesn’t affect how you feel about those who don’t agree with you…. I don’t know that many people on the Left who are as committed to anything as conservatives are to Fox News.”

    This is 110% TRUE of my experience.

    Also…
    “If someone wishes us “happy holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas,” we think we’re experiencing martyrdom”
    hee hee hee LOL- not to mention that redonculous “Red Cup Controversy”!!

  • jekylldoc

    The point about Fox News blaring all day long is worth thinking about. I remember, growing up, people who would put on religious programming all day to “keep in touch with God.” That religious programming preached a fair amount of good news, but it also went out of the way to reinforce self-righteousness, to focus people on an institution as salvation, and to warn people about “other paths.” I never thought of it as a way to police boundaries and create cohesion, but of course it was.

    I don’t know. That is a lot of how tribalism works. In more educated households, virtue is meant to rest on thoughtful choice, but it is not all that stupid to see virtue as resting on group cohesion. So I am left very dissatisfied with your prophetic denunciation here. I kind of suspect that the remedy for tribal Christianity is going to come, if at all, from finding common ground and reaching out rather than from calling on “those others” to repent. That is not as problematic as it sounds. Call it the Zacchaeus approach.

  • ravitchn

    Jesus would say this to all Christians of all sects and denominations: I did not rise from the dead. I did not come to save you from your sins. I am not the son of God. I was not born to a virgin. My biography does not exist in the Gospels. My life and meaning were totally misunderstood by Paul of Tarsus and all Christians since. I believed, falsely it turned out, that God would bring in the Kingdom following my death but He did not. I shall not be returning to earth. I am dead and so is your faith. I always remained an apocalyptic Jew. You cannot exploit me for any of your purposes.

  • Rafi Simonton

    I was raised without religion, not unusual in the Pacific NW even back in the 1950s. The desire to understand the roots of western ethics led me to Greek philosophy, Judaism, and Christianity. Then I was hit by a series of mystical encounters such that I could no longer ignore the invitation to a Christian identity. I returned to school, ending up at the Graduate Theological Union. Like most people at the beginning of response to a calling, I was floating on air, filled with hope, focussed on the light. But get far enough, you will deal with the hardships and darkness. Several people whom I relied on became distant. One professor, an old advisor with whom I’d been friends for a decade, sent me a bizarre email out of the blue. Then I was injured during a hike and none of the people in my own school noticed I was missing from the weekly worship services.

    I was alone, angry, full of doubt. Seemed like I had I thrown away my life by pursuing a fantasy in my 50s. No more. I started to rip down the Eastern Orthodox icons on my dorm walls. As I reached for a Roman Catholic Benedictine cross, the gift of a mentor, I “saw” the Jesus on that cross looking at me, eyes full of compassion. Just for a few seconds, the most a finite being could stand, I was allowed to feel the hurt, fear, loneliness, anguish, bewilderment, and desolation of all creation that he carried while on the cross. At the same time going through that most human of experiences: “My Father, why hast thou forsaken me?” I fell back on my bed, overwhelmed. Then I “heard” him say “It’s worth it, you know.” Not suffering per se, but the struggle to embody Christ’s message to follow him, become like him. So those terrible feelings are not the last word for the life of this world and its creatures.

    Being upset by “happy holidays” is hardly a make or break issue. It is mainly a tactic of the only real value that matters $$$ orientation of the economic system dominating American life. The same that is skewing the political realm into a mere subsidiary. However, that slogan can also be considered an attempt to be neighborly. To actually honor Christ’s command to love neighbor as self by demonstrating in our words and actions that the stranger, those not like us, people who worship differently, are welcomed at that very humble manger. The most important task that awaits us is not “putting the Christ back in Christmas” but putting the Christ back in Christians.

  • blogcom

    What Jesus would have said to SJW Christian Progressives- You left me out of the loop and preached another gospel- just because His name is used to promote a political agenda doesn’t mean you’re on the mark or can take the moral high ground in your fight against Conservatives.

    From the perspective of a non American observer.

  • Statistics Palin

    6. You make Jesus vomit.

  • Giordano Klar

    “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.” Matthew 10:34

  • wit brown

    Do you know what kind of Sword was it? Was it a Samurai Sword?
    Hint, : “And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:” Ephesians 6:17

  • Robert RM Bagwell

    Just leaving the most “liberal” denomination in the country, I have a differing perspctive. While you live in a conservative enclave, most of the liberals I have known look despairly at conservatives as “you poor ignorant boofs.” I’ve kept my mouth shut in the church so as not to lose reputation, occupation and friends. I am a conglomeration and would happily support politcal liberals who didn’t rail against my faith and demean those I respect and support. There are some, especially in the congregation I am leaving, who really do work at “agreeing to disagree in love.” There are others who like Sadducees or Pharisees of old look down seeming to say: “you poor deluded fools.” You say conservatives focus on “nationalism, war, division, racism, hatred.” This has not been my experience. The historic support of the nation, the sad but too often necessary often compassionate need for war to help the helpless, a frightening inability to see things from another’s position, racial support toward empowerment, accountability and self sustenance and hatred of evil, violent self expression and dangerous ideologies are more consonate with the teaching of Jesus than what I hear from the so called “liberals”. Knowingly or unknowingly it seems that they would enslave through social programs, destroy social order through violence if they don’t get their way. lie, cheat, steal, manipulate and entrap those with whom they disagree until it is too late. Is it any wonder the conservatives are angry? The liberals should be angry over the same issues if they saw how many are using them for their own personal advancement and predetermined ends. When does this ever work out well for the proletariot? I agree with many of your interpretations of the principles and words of Jesus. Would to God all those who name His Name in both quadrants could look as a start at things we hold in common. If terms meant what they have meant historically and information was not deleted from the books used by progressives so that they can redefine history to the points that if true, any conservative would also object. We live in a world dominated by the “father of lies” and a radical self centeredness is difficult to wrestle oneself from with out the help of Holy Spirit. Now that I have vented. I love you brother. Keep talking and pray for me.

  • wit brown

    And # 6 , Jesus will tell Evangelicals and Conservatives that He is NOT a member of the GOP and that He is NOT and will never be a Conservative Republican.
    Now I suspect if Jesus was here today and tell this truth to the basket of deplorables and the Religious Right, they will demand that Trump lock up Jesus for saying such blasphemous things.
    Then they will be chanting like lunatics to get Jesus locked up; lock him up, lock him up, lock him up…will be the cry.

  • Elizabeth A. Root

    I’m another agnostic atheist. For me, it means that while I think and believe there is no god(s), I recognize that it is not empirically provable.

    Maybe those of us who are kicked out of the extreme right and the extreme left can form a middle. I’m not quite a liberal, and I was reading an article yesterday that apparently places me with Neo-Nazis for not believing in everything the author does.

    I also recently read that measuring what “evangelical” Christians think depends a lot of definitions. Apparently, if you allow people to self-identify, there are a lot more “evangelicals”, and they are more conservative. On the other hand, if you consider only people who actually go to church and read the Bible, and so forth, there are a lot fewer evangelicals, but they are far less conservative. J. D. Vance remarked that people where he came from consider being a Christian to be part of their cultural identity, but it doesn’t mean it affects how they live.

    I loved your article, and after this bitter election in 2016, I have let my friends know that I don’t care to listen to belligerent discussions. I had a perfectly civil discussion with two friends who disagree with me yesterday, but as one of them said, we are all mature people who can hear each other out without getting angry.

  • Kira Jahn

    As far as I’ve read in the comments below, your article, sir, is right on point. Such hostility and defensiveness from those professing to be Christians….it makes me sad. Just say a hot button word—“Trump” “abortion” “Republicans/Democrats/liberals/conservatives”—and people retreat to their corners and prepare to verbally fight to the death. This is not Christ-like at all. I propose we all think about our reactive negative emotions just as much as the words of our opponents, which are likely designed to exact aggressiveness rather than dialogue. Then our aggressiveness serves to justify an even more extreme aggressiveness in response. And, this being the internet, there is no longer any need to even pretend at civility, like we might if face to face with this individual. All this outrage is exhausting, don’t you think? Can’t we do any better than this? And no, I’m far from a saint and I know it. This article made me feel humble, knowing I have been just as guilty of painting others in an extreme light, with the pleasant side effect of feeling like the “reasonable” one. If we really care about God and Country, well, God and Country are both to be found in the faces of these people we consider our enemies.

  • Lilly Munster

    “Conservatives are not solely responsible for this problem?”
    Let’s review.
    Liberals, Progressives, Atheists and the Educated Community did NOT start this war. They did not throw stones, threaten damnation, or call blacks, Gays and Latinos vile names, nor did The Left call for a war on Americans they did not agree with.
    The (A)Moral Majority started the Culture War with lies, threats and corruption. They demonized EVERYONE that they didn’t like. EVERYONE.
    The Right is now suffering the consequences of their bigotries….Catholic and Right Wing Protestant Churches are EMPTY. Their children do not stick around in Stupid Red States……they flee. They also flee the hateful Religions they were indoctrinated in. Red States are left with the worst Americans…….drug dependent, welfare dependent, uneducated, diseased with STDs, low income, prone to domestic violence and crime.
    Just compare “Christian” Texas, Alabama, Mississippi to “Liberal” California, Massachusetts and Vermont. NO comparison for brains, income, citizenship and good manners. Who the hell would want to live near Christian Fundamentalist Crazies?