A modern Pagan perspectivePosts RSS Comments RSS

Paganism, Solidarity, and the Way Forward

There’s been much talk recently of individuals, who many would classify as adherents of a “Pagan” religion, rejecting that label. The reasons tend to vary, but most center on a dissatisfaction with what the label Pagan implies, who it includes (or excludes), and the wider impressions it engenders among outsiders. Polytheistic reconstructionists, Druidic groups, Traditional Wiccans, and the rainbow assortment of eclectics, start-ups, and syncretic hybrids that have been lumped, willing or no, under the “Pagan” banner have long debated, fought, schism-ed, and chaffed over the idea that they are part of a larger definable movement, and if they are, what they should all be collectively called. In my lifetime I’ve seen the adoption and rejection of “earth-based religions,” the almost unanimous casting-off of any allegiance with “New Age,” the rise of “Heathenism” as something distinct from Paganism, the slow shift from “Neopaganism” to simply “Pagan,” and the somewhat controversial idea of “European Indigenous Traditions.” If anything truly defines all of us it may be our collective uneasiness with being classified under these often inadequate umbrella terms.

This tension is understandable. The very idea of a modern pan-Pagan (if you’ll excuse the term) movement is rather young. While there are historical antecedents, it was really the rise of large-scale regional festivals like Pagan Spirit Gathering and Starwood, along with the publication of Margot Adler’s “Drawing Down the Moon” in 1979, that started to open up the possibility that there were: A. more of us than we suspected, and B. that we could collectively work towards some common goals. Now a truly global phenomenon, more interconnected than we’ve ever been before, our family of faiths faces the growing pains that come with our initial, and sometimes surprising, successes. In addition, there is important work going on right now that could have long-term ramifications for the diverse faith traditions that are currently lumped together as Pagan. I think there is value in exploring how we can continue to work towards shared goals, while allowing our diversity and distinctness to emerge in healthy ways, but to do that we need to move forward in good faith and not resort to the acrimony that has emerged in past discussions on these topics.

Polytheists, Heathens, and other self-identified groups dissatisfied with the Pagan label need to acknowledge that the eclectic Wicca-centric nature of the modern Pagan movement isn’t that way out of any desire to alienate them, or force ritual conformity, but simply a result of Wicca’s runaway success. A success that most Wiccans and Witches could never have dreamed of, a success that created deep divisions alongside the growth. Meanwhile, those comfortable being labeled Pagan need to attribute the best motives to those who want to leave the Pagan umbrella. That they are not simply being contrary, or engaging in the barrel-shooting sport of mocking the foibles and excesses of Pagans they find embarrassing or offensive. A greater willingness to be open, to dialog, and to be willing to address real grievances from both sides could do much to mitigate this recurring “splitting” phenomenon. I think the current willingness to largely avoid personal attacks or inaccurate smears in this latest debate is a positive sign that this dialog is possible.

All that said, if an individual or group wants to split off, I will not stand in their way or argue with them. I will respect their chosen nomenclature and acknowledge their need to be seen as outside the Pagan umbrella. What I will do is ask that they don’t isolate themselves completely as we collectively move towards achieving legal and social advances that could benefit us all. As I mentioned earlier, we are at a critical moment in several struggles that could have far-reaching ramifications for Pagans and those who follow religions and traditions that bear some similarities to us. We need to build coalitions and practice solidarity if we are to not lose ground, and I am less concerned about what my allies call themselves so long as they remain my allies.

I’m currently reading a new book entitled “Tri-Faith America: How Catholics and Jews Held Postwar America to Its Protestant Promise,” and it talks about how a coalition of Catholics, Jews, and pluralistic Protestant Christians joined forces to counteract American nativism, Protestant antipathy, political hostility, and a revived Ku Klux Klan, to redefine the boundaries of faith in America. Everett R. Clinchy, a founder and former president of the National Conference of Christians and Jews (now the National Conference for Community and Justice), warned against America declining into a “cultural monism” that would lead to authoritarianism. He believed America thrives only when it accepts its diversity. I doubt Clinchy would have predicted the rise of Paganism, polytheism, and other non-monotheist faiths, but his message and vision remains important. I think the mantle of continuing to expand America’s, and in turn the world’s, boundaries of what manifestations of religion are an acceptable part of our cultural dialog has now fallen to us.

I see a future with a National Conference of Pagans and Polytheists, or to be even more grand, a National Conference of Pagans, Polytheists, Syncretic Religions, and Indigenous faiths. Encompassing not just Pagans, and the polytheists who want no part of our umbrella, but Hindus, Vodouisants, practitioners of Santeria, those who follow traditional Native beliefs, and other groups who see the utility in counteracting the pernicious side-effects of a society that indeed seems to have slid quietly into a sort of cultural monism. Where religions outside the now-established “Tri-Faith” consensus are seen as suspect, a joke, or at best given quick lip-service and then forgotten. Where some Christian groups seem to be reviving the dangerous nativism that once so concerned men like Everett Clinchy. At this critical point in time we must not allow these natural splits and debates over terminology to take our eyes of the prize. We must engage in pragmatic solidarity on the matters that affect us all, and be ready to fight for rights and privileges so many Christians, Catholics, and Jews now take for granted.

139 responses so far

  • http://twitter.com/Isewinsf @Isewinsf

    Nice piece, very well said. I look forward to the day when all religions will be able to sit down and talk on an equal basis, but I guess this is a long ways away. But this is a start and I have great hope.

  • http://www.facebook.com/michele.briere Michele Briere

    Good thoughts on the subject. Thanks. I think one of the problems with the term 'Pagan' for all of us is that it's new. The ancient pagans (note the lower case), did not consider themselves under any 'umbrella' term. They were each their own tribe, as it were. My path is Sumerian, so I sent this very question to one of the authors of these university-level professors whose books I prefer over those on the New-Age shelves. (Graham Cunningham, if you'd like a name. He's at Cambridge.) I gave him a summary of the discussion of 'to be a Pagan, or not to be a Pagan,' and asked if there was a better word we should be, or could be, using as an umbrella term for us. I think I surprised him. He said he actually had never thought about it, and couldn't think of one word for the whole group of us neo-Pagans.

    While my path is Sumerian, which is a story in and of itself as to how I got there, I refer to myself as Pagan for the general public. Privately, I think of myself as pagan. To me, this is about an outlook, how I view life, rather than which god or gods I worship. I've been a practicing Pagan since about 1986, and quickly picked up the aspects of magic. I am at home in the underworld, that place of transformation which magic is all about. My daily life, however, is one of a pagan life. For me, life is alive. All things have a spirit, a soul. I view like in multiples, and always have, which makes it easy for me to accept multiple lives, multiple worlds, and multiple gods.

    I have no wish for a unifying body, handing me a book of rules and telling me who, how, when and where to worship. I am pagan.

  • sacredblasphemies

    I enjoyed this.
    I often have issues with the "Pagan" label because the idea it gives has little or nothing in common with what I believer or practice. I don't just mean in the "Pagan as evil sacrificial cultists" pop-culture sense but even the term as its used within context of modern Paganism.

    I don't cast circles or believe in the five elements or use athames or practice magic or any of that Wiccan-derived stuff. I'm not putting it down. Obviously it works for some people. My way works for me and is only better for me.
    But I know that when I identify myself as Pagan, it runs the risk of miscommunicating my religion of having something to do with Wiccan-derived Paganism.

  • http://paradisemommy.blogspot.com Jennifer

    Those of us that thrive outside of the “Tri-Faith” must put aside our own bickering if we are to take a stand against this “cultural monism” …which honestly is one of my biggest fears. Ever so often when I poke my head out of my own little world I'm so horrified at what I find to be "mainstream" now that I just want to run as fast as I can back to my little corner of the world.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jess-Matz/782124235 Jess Matz

    "I see a future with a National Conference of Pagans and Polytheists…"

    YES! This! I have said before and I will say again that we can do more together than we can as separate entities. This is true for any level of classification. Whether we band together as Pagans, Polytheists &tc or whether we band with our brothers and sisters in the monotheist faiths as well, we can make a positive change in the world more easily by understanding that our similarities are more important than our differences.

    Today's tweet from the Dalai Lama said "The world's major religious traditions all give the development of compassion a key role." I would extend that to many of the minor religious traditions as well and this one of many points where any person of faith can work with any other toward positive change.

  • LJRich

    I'm one of those people that has recently dropped the term "Pagan" from any description of myself. The word no longer means what it was originally intended to mean (which was 'religions not of the Big 3'). It now is associated with all manners of things that have less than nothing to do with religion, including but not limited to, Ren Faires, the SCA and Unicorns. Not joking. It's not that I don't like Ren Faires, I do. And, I have an ex that is a member of the SCA and they're great people, but they're not Pagan or religiously based. I just don't want to be associated with those things while I'm trying to describe my religious life. So, it's not worth the headaches to use the term anymore.

    In technical terms, I would be both an atheist AND a polytheist. So, I choose to use those terms because they refer to the belief in Gods (or lack thereof). I was also using 'witch' for awhile, but that one is slowly going the way of the Pagan/Wiccan. I will probably drop it, also.

  • http://Www.emalamed.com Flame Tiferet

    I find it helpful to take a look process of minority identity development in psychology. What I am reminded of is this model of “the melting pot” as an inadequate understanding of diversity. The image is one of blending and, yes, to a degree of homogenization. This has been extremely unsatisfying to ethnic and racial groups, and I think it is unsatisfying here in regards to our religious/spiritual/? diversity. The questions arise: how do we embrace our difference and still unify as a group? A new model or metaphor isn’t coming to me right now; I’d be very curious to hear other people’s ideas about this.

  • Ursyl

    In a salad, all the ingredients maintain their own identities and flavors, even as they combine to create a whole new flavor.

  • http://twitter.com/AmethJera @AmethJera

    Your post was excellent and framed the situation in perfect terms. I have always maintained that there is a difference between being a Pagan and non-Abrahamic religions being called pagan. I don't like lumping everything together, but until we come up with a more satisfying umbrella term, I will continue, out of necessity, to call our community Pagan. Generic, undeclared, non-denominational followers of Christ have gone through the same kind of growing pains, but are still known as Christians, and so I suspect that our self-identification as a group, by and large will remain as Pagan in that manner. I don't believe the problem actually lies with the term so much as what individuals attach to it, and so in that spirit, I believe we need to reclaim Pagan much as myself and other have reclaimed Witch. Neither term will ever be 100% free of negative or discriminatory attachments, but I feel it's the best we have to work with for right now.

  • http://www.facebook.com/EdAHubbard Ed Hubbard

    So when do you want this conference to be held. I think Chicago is probably the best place, or maybe Indianapolis because of being centralized in the nation and affordable airfare. I would be happy to begin putting this together. If there is no other reason, I think the third week of May 2013, would be the best date, or a Labor Day weekend in 2013. Of course, we cna definitely develop a online presence as well.

    If we like November is also a good month. I would be happy to seed this, if people are interested and serious. I was planning something like this already, ahead of the Parliament of the World's Religions. I feel we need to have a better answer to that regal body.

    So when and where.

  • Baruch Dreamstalker

    The energy we invest in putting down one another's paths is not only wasted; it's doing the enemy's work for them.

  • http://twitter.com/crow_feathers CrowFeathers

    I wasn’t thinking salad as a replacement for meltingpot as much as bouquet, but the point is the same. Lol.

    Anyway, I’d also like to see atheists included in any such council, because their struggles for acceptance and equality have helped our cause as much as theirs. Funny, I find myself agreeing with them on many things when it’s about freedom and rights, but when certain groups attack religion and faith, I suddenly find myself on the other side of the aisle arguing that it’s all not just superstition and fuzzy thinking.

  • HeatherNC

    This sounded great at first. Then I began to wonder, what if one is Pagan and Polytheistic? Will Wiccans and Animists and Henotheists want to be listed sperately too? Do we then get to give a mini religious lecture every time we meet someone to explain exactly all the inner workings of our traditions? Other categories of religions seem to be able to get along and agree to an umbrella category. When leaders of the worlds religion come together, there is a representative or two of each major tradition. Yet each of them has many, many subsets. Not every single seperate aspect of a category can be specifically, exactly represented and truly understood at every gathering just for the sake of actually getting something done.

  • HeatherNC

    I've spent years educating people in my area about what Paganism is in the broadest sense and including all stripes. We've had the ACLU in to get us equal treatment in the county. We've handed out pamphlets, wrote letters to the editors, all to move Paganism, in all its many variations, forward. It seems like now that the groundwork has been laid all over the US, people want to abandon it and start re-educating and vying for recognition for every different manifestaion instead of combining efforts and continuing to gain momentum and recognition for us and future generations.

  • HeatherNC

    I understand fully that some people feel they aren't represented in Paganism, but I think this is due to not staking ones place which is probably already there. I don't associate Pagan with just Wicca. Most people I know don't either. Wicca is a tradition that falls under the umbrella of Paganism. I would like for us to get beyond this debate and come to a conclusion we can all embrace. There have been some very good defitnitons offered up as a result of this debate that are workable and respectful of everyone. I don't think the answer is let's list every single subset (which is what it would turn into as different groups say 'they're listed, why aren't we?'

  • HeatherNC

    I wonder how we can take all this energy and reaffirm the inclusion of Neo-Pagans, Wiccans, Asatru, Celtic Recons, Goddess worshippers, Witches, Kemetic, Shamanism etc etc under a term that has been serving us in the political and social realm for so long. We may think we are all so different but if you gave the bullet points of each path to a a non-Pagan they'd probably say 'oh, you're Pagan'. Every comment I've read about how someone isn't Pagan has been on "PAGAN" blogs. They wouldn't have been found listed under a little-known religious heading. This is what would happen to us out in the world too if we continue to split off. I look forward to getting to a place where each of us feels validated as individuals with diverse traditions and can also truly come together to bring Paganism into the 21st century.

    Sorry I had to split my comment up due to length.

  • http://twitter.com/melissajohill @melissajohill

    I'd be happy to help in Indy, Ed. :)

  • Jocelyne Berengaria Houghton

    "Paganism is a term of solidarity." – Katrina Messenger

    As a dharma Pagan, I will firmly and proudly stand behind the banner of a "National Conference of Pagans, Polytheists, Syncretic Religions, and Indigenous Faiths." I think solidarity amongst our communities is of vital importance given the threats to pluralism in this country and in the world at large.

    My identity embraces multiplicity, and as such my appellation of "dharma Pagan" reflects my devotion to M? K?li, my yoga & meditation practice, my cultivation of boddhicitta, as well as my Pagan Path which is rooted in spiritual connections to the Land – upon which I live (Cascadia) and the land upon which I was born (England) – and resonance with the Reclaiming Tradition Principals of Unity.

    I do not identify as a Witch, nor as a Wiccan – but as a Pagan I stand in solidarity with those who do. I am not a hard polytheist, nor am I a Goddess Monotheist – but as a Pagan I stand in solidarity with those who are. I am a panentheist and an Advaitist (non-dualist) – and under the Pagan umbrella I hope for and strive to cultivate solidarity with those who do not identify as such.

    I don't want to wait for a "better term than Paganism" – I want to work to make Paganism a strong home for those of many faiths and practices, traditions and spiritualities that embraces understanding and thrives from our diversity. I want to work to strengthen the thea/ology, the intellectual rigor, the commitment to avoid cultural appropriation and hegemony of one group that would truly make Pagan a term of solidarity.

    As a devotee of M? K?li, I understand the alienation of others whose personal Deities are misrepresented by the tendencies of Wiccanate Paganism to gloss over the cultural and historical underpinnings of Deities. As a Reclaiming Pagan, I see the Wiccante influences in my own thealogy that may alienate others who do not share this influence.

    However, I believe that with the magick of intention, we can carve out a meaning of Pagan that is not hegemonic but rather a statement of solidarity amongst those of of us who, as Thorn says, "share a sense of “Divine with us on earth.” " So mote it be.

  • Pitch313

    We, whoever we are, happen to be quite well-accomplished at interfaith. On the local, state, regional, continental, and global levels. Productive solutions are probably to be found among interfaith participants, organizations, and ideas, as well. We likely do share some outlooks and goals in common.

    We could do interfaith among us as well as between us and them.

  • http://pagancollegestudent.blogspot.com WarriorPrincessDanu

    Excellent post! I was going to write a response here, but it got too long, so I put it on my blog: http://pagancollegestudent.blogspot.com/2011/05/p…

  • http://kelledia.livejournal.com/ Aisling Kelledia

    I've never understood why anyone would associate the word Pagan with only Wicca. It's always seemed to me to be an expansive enough term; large enough to also include any Polytheists, Recons, Animist, or Heathen communities out there. For the life of me, I don't see how a label one uses for the purpose of simplification, could be equated with a dogmatic straight-jacket. It troubles me that the divisions we are seeing, might weaken our efforts towards gaining the basic civil and human rights which members of "the big three" are so used to expecting, for themselves. I would love to see the day when we can experience a National Conference of Pagans, Polytheists, Syncretic Religions, and Indigenous faiths. But without greater unity, I wonder if it can be achieved.

  • Baruch Dreamstalker

    I went to your blog comment. I would supportively cite Jocelyne above: Solidarity, not hegemony.

  • Ingus

    I am an Italian, a European, and I don't understand why a handful of New Age (rather than Pagan) American authors should decide how we have to be called! I'm totally angry about this!

    "Paganism" and "Neopaganism" are blanket terms referring strictly to the European Ethnic Religions, Near Eastern Religions, and new religions based on them (such as Wicca and Stregheria). This is the definition shared by most of the European Reconstructionist Pagan organizations and particularly those which are into the European Congress of Ethnic Religion. The ECER was also one of the main proponents of the re-definition of "Paganism" as "European Religions" at the 2009 Parliament of World Religions. "Polytheism" is a broad term referring to a theological viewpoint, not to a specific religious movement, and, first of all, not all Pagans/Neopagans are polytheist.

    We need a common identity, and this identity is the label "Paganism/Neopaganism", encompassing European and Near Eastern religions and nothing else. "Paganism" is not only a religion, but also a culture and identity, the ensemble of the cultures and identities of Europe (and European-derived nations such as America and Canada), the Mediterranean Basin and the Near East (Berber, Egypt, Canaan and Mesopotamia).

    Furthermore, in defense of the term "Pagan" I link an interesting Italian article: http://www.centrostudilaruna.it/la-battaglia-del-…

    As you can read in the article maybe it's true that originally "Pagan" meant "dweller of the countryside" (the "pagi" were the Roman smallest administrative divisions of the countryside), member of local village communities, but during the first period of conflict between Christians and "Pagans" the label came to mean "civilian", "Gentile", as opposed to "milites Christi", the uncivil soldiers of Christ, who set themselves out of civilization. The term was used this way by Tacitus, Suetonius and Pliny the Younger.

  • http://nihhus.jimdo.com/ Malaz

    While I support our community's right to call itself whatever it wants, I have to again mention a few key factors in this debate.
    We all know about the origin of the word http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=pagan&…
    but what most of us fail to recognize is the reason that the word remains a part of the English language.
    During the Middle Ages, it was the Church that had almost complete control of literacy. It was the Church that destroyed or altered any documents which might lend a complimentary light to our faiths and it was the Church that decided to continue using the term Pagan .
    That a given, we then have to look at what the RCC considers "pagan" http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11388a.htm
    and why.
    If you look at the above link you'll find something weird and wonderful…the very same people who use their 'slave name' for us (and have gotten us all to accept the "P word" for ourselvs) have, by default…also made themselves a minority in the process.
    I’ll suggest two contemplations here.
    1.That if we’re going to use the word Pagan…then we should use it to it’s full extent…after all, Buddhists, Hindus, Shinto practitioners and Native Animists are all polytheist too…which has the effect of making our faiths over 3 billion strong!
    2.That we get rid of the ‘p’ word and use an alternative term such as Indigenist.
    This is my word and I use it because no matter where you are, no matter what your specific faith is…it’s rooted in an Indigenous practice…from somewhere.

  • Ingus

    The semantics of the word "Pagan" has changed over the centuries and during the last decades it has come to mean specifically "European and Near Eastern Ethnic Religions and New Religions Based on Them". This is the definition given by the European Congress of Ethnic Religions, the most authoritative Pagan body in Europe. http://parliament.pagannewswirecollective.com/200…

  • http://www.facebook.com/EdAHubbard Ed Hubbard

    Actually it would be easy, A conference of this kind can be easily achieved. It just takes focus.

  • http://www.facebook.com/EdAHubbard Ed Hubbard

    Thank You for this. I have been fighting a nasty infight in the states over this very issue. I am glad it is coming out this did happen, and there has been a attempted cover up by many to say no attempt to change the level of Paganism.

  • LJRich

    Just from reading some of the other responses, I'm going to respond again. There was a question posed to me about a year ago in which I was asked whether or not I wanted paganism to become mainstream. My answer was NO. And, the reason that it's no is because inevitably you end up with leaders and people who speak for the greater community. To be bluntly honest, I would never want another pagan to speak for me. Because they have no idea how my religion relates to theirs or if it does at all. When you try and unify and then end up with panels and conferences and leaders and such, you inevitably create a public status quo. People start to believe that all pagans are like the ones on the panel. No two Hellenics may be alike. No two wiccans, no two Native Americans, etc. I don't want other pagans speaking for me or representing me. Our connections are mot likely scarily tenuous.

  • Bookhousegal

    Only problem is, the definition of 'Pagan' you cite isn't a limitation of the *term* in common usage. (You haven't described your own personal path: for all I know it has nothing to do with polytheism of any kind, or the old Gods or what…. Personally, I'm pretty 'mainstream Pagan,' and Wiccan by some standards, but that doesn't mean I fit *your* stated description of 'Wiccan-derived stuff.

    Why dispute an umbrella term you don't claim in the name of a characterization *you* place on the term that the Pagan community really does not? No one says 'You have to do these 'Wiccan-derived things' to be *Pagan,* after all.

  • Bookhousegal

    I really don't think it's productive to rehash all the old debates about 'definitions.' Sadly, a lot of this *is* about people trying to dissociate themselves from anything 'Too Wiccan,' generally in favor of claiming things about people they call 'Too Wiccan' who perhaps are not, over academic points that I for one, just don't find as important as being a *living* faith-group: it seems to me that various small groups of Recons are the ones acting like it's putting them out if Pagans call ourselves Pagans. Why?

    What's that supposed to accomplish? Better scholarship? I value that, but who defines its *place* in our modern lives? People act like 'Wicca-bashing,' (now conflated with the term Pagan itself) somehow lends authority to various arguments. To whom? Not the Pagan community I've seen grow and build all these decades. No one seems to say how our diversity cramps some style someone *else* could be having, after all.

    I don't think it does. Like so many other words, *we* giving up our say in what that means doesn't mean someone else won't pick it right back up and start using it… Against *all of us* in the exact way some seem to fear.

  • Bookhousegal

    Well, I would prefer people didn't start selling 'wiccanite' or 'mainstream Pagans' (if there is such a thing, really) or what have you, …so short as people seem to take the for granted without perhaps meeting enough, themselves. People who talk *that* way tend to talk more *about* Wiccans than *to* Wiccans, and if they do, not in a very communicative way.

    Sounds like there's some good names for conferences being floated around, but when did we start naming an *organization?* An event or 'thing?'

  • Alex Pendragon

    When I drifted away from Catholicism, skirted the lure of atheism, and finally found something in Wicca that made sense to me, I hunkered down and became serious about becoming involved with this one thing that I believed I wanted to belong to that was truly "bigger than myself". All I knew for sure was that I could not live with the idea of being a "christian", if I was going to belong to a group of people who could commit the moral offenses that I saw most of these people doing. No, I do not claim to be the perfect Wiccan, no, I do not personally perform magik to any great degree, and yes, I am still quite capable of being embarrassed by some of the silly behaviors of my fellow Wiccans, but there comes a point where trying to split hairs with faith to an "inth" degree gets a bit ridiculous. So, if you think that your own personal path is SO special that if offends you to be lumped with the rest of us non-abrahamic faiths, then fine, but please don't expect us to KNOW just how special you are if we never even heard of that path to begin with and never meant to offend you by thinking of you as kindred spirits in a world where not believing in Jehovah or Allah CAN still get you prosecuted or killed.

  • kenneth

    If people don’t want to use any particular label, that’s fine with me, but I think they’re naive, at best, if they honestly believe the same problems aren’t going to follow them into whatever new term they coin for themselves. In a week or a year from now, the same people who fled from the supposedly oppressive umbrella of paganism are going to be griping about how “polytheism” or “heathen” or whatever has taken on the baggage of all sorts of things that fail to describe them adequately and lump them together with folks they don’t like all that much. And there will be another round of disavowing and calls to pick up their tents and head to greener pastures…

    So the term “pagan” fails to make all the distinctions you’d like it to. So what? That’s true even of far more supposedly specific terms. If someone tells me they’re Wiccan, even of such and such tradition and lineage, what does that really tell me about who they are and what they believe and practice? Not a damn thing, it turns out. There’s as many “traditions” out there as there are pagans, and even within each person, there are nuances and contradictions and evolution of beliefs that will ultimately render any label a crude generalization.

    In a country where we still don’t have basic rights and where presidential candidates openly call for us to be disenfranchised from our own Constitution, do we really have time and energy to focus on this?

    If I was the paranoid sort, I would start to suspect that this “debate” was started by the religious right to advance their own ends….

  • http://blog.chasclifton.com Chas

    "Paganism" works if you think of it as a way of being religious and not as adherence to any particular doctrines or practices. Rather, Pagan religions tend to have family resemblances to one another that they do not have to the doctrinally centered monotheistic faiths.

  • Thriceraven

    And I am proud to be part of the Pagan salad! Can I be the dill?

  • http://badocelot.com badocelot

    That's my perspective, as well. Categories don't actually have to have definitions, as long as there are some clear, paradigmatic examples.

    In Wicca in particular, I noticed that every other Wiccan seems to have a different definition of what you have to believe/do to be Wiccan, as if you could actually define something that is at this point an organic thing. That applies doubly to "Paganism."

  • http://www.facebook.com/EdAHubbard Ed Hubbard

    I think the question needs to be divided into two distinct parts, and that is the idea of a religious umbrella and a political umbrella. Right now, we are using Paganism as a religious term for a family of traditions, each with it's own unique point of view. Think of this as the 21st Century phenomena known as Mass Customization, where we all take what we want and have it made into what we want. (A Ipod is a example, which can be nearly any shape or color we choose, and filled with whatever audio or video we want, but still works the same with each person). On this level, Paganism is going to fail, because we don't have enough common structure to keep us from flying apart. It is inevitable that we will fracture.

    But the second umbrella that has sustained us, and where Wicca has led, is the political one. We all want to assure that we have the right to practice and say what we want. In this we need unity but we are still basically a rounding error in most cases. So under Paganism as politics, we all want to assure we have a right to be, even in this age of mass customization. This is what has held us together and continues to do so. We want freedom, and we have a better shot at gaining freedom when we stick together as a voting and resource block. This is what dividing the community threatens.

  • Ursyl

    I like bouquets too. We UUs do Flower Communion in the spring for just this purpose, how our community is like a bouquet.

    I hear you on the atheist issue too. I've been known to argue (at debate forums) on both sides of that issue, depending on what either side is saying about the other.

  • http://badocelot.com badocelot

    In a lot of cases I think disputes about what is or isn't "X" should be viewed as attempts to gerrymander the boundaries to suit someone's interests or eccentricities. Take a look at the endless games played with religion/spirituality, Christianity/Christendom, agnostic/atheist, etc.

    In the case of Pagan-ish people dropping the label "Pagan," it's probably a benign, personal thing for them. Let them call themselves what they will (maybe it'll even catch on!).

    Even so, I'll probably keep thinking of them as "Pagans" and even call them such when not in their company, because they fall under my understanding of the word. They may eventually change my minds, but only time can tell.

  • http://norsealchemist.blogspot.com NorseAlchemist

    I'm not sure about the Atheists, Crow. Not that I have anything against them, but if it is a conference about those that fall under the Pagan and Heathen umbrellas, where we'd have enough fights about how the gods and goddesses exist, I don't think we wanna add in a group that says they don't. Just because they've struggled in the past doesn't mean they need be included, especially since they seem to be on equal footing with the Christians at this point.

  • Druidwood

    I personally never had a problem with the term Pagan. We're all Pagan but these days it is an umbrella term. Just as Christianity is. Like someone else stated ancient Pagans didn't see Pagan as anything else other then Pagan. Today many newbies don't see how they are Pagan they call themselves Wiccan,Witch, Druid, etc,etc. Many don't even know what the word means let alone heard of it, not to they seem to care where it came from & what it means. I find that to be sad if nothing else but that's another topic. What other word describes us better? Why the shame? After all it's what we are & it should stand for something positive! I call myself Pagan but I let them know that I walk the path of the Druids but I don't call myself a Druid. I don't not follow the Judea-Christian god there fore I am Pagan & proud to be one!

  • http://norsealchemist.blogspot.com NorseAlchemist

    I see a lot of responses here, but none of them really address why people would want to be identified as something other than Pagan.

    I wish to state that I have no personal issue being called a Pagan. I tend to go by Heathen, but I use Pagan just as well.

    So, why do people have issues with being called Pagan? I can't speak for everyone, but these are some of the ones I know.

    One, people have an image of what it means to be Pagan. Real or Imagined, they tend to see people who are at the least, similar to hippies, flower children dreaming of the Great Mother. Thanks in large part to Wicca, it's identified with Feminism, Misandry, Liberalism, the Democrats, Progressive Politics, flower power, new age, eclectic, and a whole host of things. Now, its Paganism always this, no, but that's how most people see it, and a significant majority do tend to fall into the above mentioned points of view, both in life and in their religious practice.

    This are not in and of themselves, bad things. The problem arises when there is one who is "Pagan" but doesn't believe in those things. Heathens (commonly known as Reconstructionists or ReCons) tend to fall more in the area of Libertarian, Conservative, or perhaps even Republican values, with an emphasis on hard facts and accurate reconstruction of the historic religion of our ancestors. Gender equality tends to be pretty big, but sometimes with a heavy acknowledgment of "gender roles" and the sacred powers inherent there of, that much of Modern Society (and many Pagans) consider outdated and even sexist. Often enough, those who fall under what could be called Heathenism, face attacks by Pagans because of differences in political and religious views. I have faced this myself, and there are several accounts of prominent "conservative" Pagan bloggers who have not only been verbally attacked about what they wrote, but have even received death threats and claims that they weren't "True Pagans."

    Is it any wonder why some want to split? Pagan means a lot of things to a lot of people, and some of us in the Pagan community are not always made to feel welcome because we don't hold the "Party line" when it comes to politics or religious practices that arise from our faiths. Instead of respect, too often there is war, and so I can understand why so many want to separate themselves from the "Pagan" name.

  • http://badocelot.com badocelot

    I can understand that. While I definitely share in the "liberal Pagan" mindset (I was actually leaning Asatru at one point but decided I didn't like the conservative elements), I don't think it's right to accuse someone of not being a "true Pagan" (whatever that's supposed to mean) when what you mean is "I'm angry that a fellow Pagan would be what I hoped none of us would be." The liberal/conservative war should be an entirely separate issue from whether you're a Pagan or not.

  • http://badocelot.com badocelot

    Well, let me make one small addendum to that, but I think you'll agree: any Pagan who opposes religious freedom and wants to bring back the glory days when anyone who didn't worship the public gods were thrown to the lions is a traitor to our movement. But that's about it.

  • Anne Green

    You know, at first I hit the like button on this (and I guess I still would have, in retrospect), because we shouldn't waste energy putting each other's paths down. You're spot on there. But I think 'enemy' is far too strong a word. Between the Pagan Soccer Mom over at Circle of Mom's and Damon Fowler standing up for his rights at graduation in Louisiana, the responses I've read in comment threads today by allegedly tolerant Pagans is… well, I'd like to say it's surprising, but it's probably not. Disappointing, but not surprising.

  • Anne Green

    Great post, Jason. I've already posted something about this on my blog, and I thought I was feeling pretty open-and-shut about the whole issue, but I've been reading more posts and comment threads since then and my mind is surprisingly not feeling settled.

    I totally get why the term doesn't work for some people and they feel like they need to leave it behind. Being eclectic myself, I often get pretty frustrated that everyone assumes I'm Wiccan merely because I say I'm Pagan, or that I believe in some fairly (to my mind) fantastical things that I don't believe in at all. So while the term doesn't always work for me, “Pagan” is the one inclusive term that both describes my beliefs and is something that (at least some) people understand. If I had to boil it down every single time it'd be difficult: even the other Pagans I meet often have to have religious monism defined and panentheism not only defined but also disambiguated from pantheism. Animism is thankfully, to a greater degree, already understood. And none of those account for my observance of quarters and cross-quarters.

    So without that term, Pagan, I’m labelless. Part of me kind of adores that idea, of course, that I can just say those who ask that my faith is personal and it’s complicated and isn’t all faith personal and complicated, but sometimes it’s nice to have one word you can toss out there instead of four or five that you constantly have to define. (Granted, there are so many definitions of Pagan that perhaps one word is no better, but it seems to make conversations go quicker.)

    And cultural monism is such an interesting phrase in light of my belief of religious monism. Do you mean it as 'cultural homogeneity' where people appear to all be the same, even though they're quite obviously not?

  • Henry Buchy

    I suggest coalition of minorty religions and keep the dialogue and rhetoric to general religious freedom.

  • http://goldentrail.wordpress.com/ Helio Pires

    Just like interfaith dialogue cannot be sincere and respectful if it doesn't take into account the differences between the several parties, there can be no honest common front our communities if we perpetuate the misconception that we are all X, practice Y, and believe in Z. I would therefore agree with you when you say that new labels should not prevent us from fighting towards common goals: your post points out steps in the right direction.

  • Scorpivs

    It is curious that there are those who think the general 'pagan' movement really sees a need to dissociate from the term. The greatest issue confronting many pagans, at least in the United States, is validation that your beliefs, if they are non-traditional ones, are just as acceptable to everyone. This is important because if people do not accept your beliefs as valid, then you are not likely to be afforded the respect you deserve. This is especially true when it comes to exercising your religious rights, either at work, or having your beliefs respected in government. I live in an area where Christians use their influence to hoist Christian flags on public monuments, without respect to other religions. I live in an area where Christian members of government seek religious guidance from the traditional religions, while seeking to exclude anything associated with 'pagan' ones. We, as pagans, MUST stand united until we are accepted as valid members of our community, be it local, or global. Once we have the respect we deserve, then seek to free yourself of the term. I am a witch. I am also a proud pagan. I am intelligent enough to know that the term 'pagan' is a global term describing any non-Abrahamic belief system. I do not associate pagan with witchcraft only -that is a form of ignorance in itself. It's an umbrella term and it covers us well. I proudly take the Roman derision and make it into something far greater than their legions ever could be. To be pagan is to be free, and I wish this for the whole of humanity…how much better would the world be without religions who glorify death and killing, as the Abrahamics do so well? I do everything I can to make this world a reality, and proudly call myself 'pagan'.

  • Soli

    Back in college, a friend and I took a course on nationalism. I still remember one of her paper titles relating to the United States and national identity: melting pot or tossed salad. She argued for the salad way of thinking.
    Both in religions and cultural identity, it is possible to be associated with something bigger while retaining a personal difference, and not losing the "flavor" when all put togehter.

  • http://the-night-raven.blogspot.com/ Hadaig

    "I've never understood why anyone would associate the word Pagan with only Wicca." It is called ignorance. We can all change our labels in whatever manner we desire, but it will not change the ignorance of non-pagans. Education may change the ignorance of non-pagans, but changing labels may simply create confusion (or less education/ more ignorance). I love diversity and I stand by everyone's right to define themselves, but language becomes useless if we allow everyone to redefine words in their own image. "Pagan" is still defined as anyone outside of the "big 3". I find it equally alarming that this debate has apparently been created by the ignorance of non-pagans.

  • Soli

    One of the reasons I still use the label of pagan even though I could be one of the people claiming one of the "subset" labels is to be a living demonstration that "paganism" can be more than the generic mish-mash which has been presented over several years. The second is that I think this desire to separate into more factions is pretty problematic since we're all still minority religions and there's a definite political and religious wave seeking to squash our rights because we do not follow the dominant paradigm.
    I've been wanting to write something about this for some time and hopefully soon will post something more fleshed out on my blog Syncretic Mystic.

  • Peter Dybing

    Pagans have paid a heavy price for the freedoms we enjoy. Homes have burned, jobs lost, individuals beaten, lives even lost. I will not dishonor my spiritual ancestors by abandoning the very banner under which their sacrifices were made. I am 100% Pagan

  • http://the-night-raven.blogspot.com/ Hadaig

    Kudos! I left Christianity because I do not clone well. My attraction to Paganism was the freedom it allowed. I have learned much from this diverse community, and I love the diversity. I recognize that some consider the word "pagan" to be insulting, but if I consider the conduct of those who use this as a slur, I must wear the label as a badge of honor. Needless to say, I am not looking for another religious structure to stifle freedom and diversity, so I do not recognize this European Congress of Ethnic Religions or their authority to redefine words.

  • http://the-night-raven.blogspot.com/ Hadaig

    Note the fundamentalists in Christian and Islamic religion. I am fairly certain that there are factions within Judaism that might be consider "fringe dwellers" also. I believe we are all familiar with the troubles brought on in this world by extremists, but why would we think such factions would not exist within "Paganism" or any of the belief systems that fall under this "umbrella"? Have the actions of a few caused others to also forget "respect" for individuality and diversity? Those who are well grounded in this world must know that individuality/diversity is natural. We must learn to live with that!

  • http://the-night-raven.blogspot.com/ Hadaig

    I empathize with you on that. I left Christianity for Wicca, but eclecticism now leaves me label-less without "Pagan". The primary cause of this has been the discovery that many religions or belief systems hold much wisdom. For this reason, I respect Native Americans, Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus, Wiccans, Witches, Warlocks, Asatru, Chaoites, etc. I do not count myself among them, but they have enriched my life immeasurably, and I wouldn't want a world without them. Unfortunately, elitism seems inescapable. We may think that the "Big 3" believe they hold the one and only Truth, but apparently there are some "pagans" who think so also!

  • http://egregores.blogspot.com/ Apuleius

    The "National Conference" idea is fantastic!

  • http://twitter.com/Isewinsf @Isewinsf

    You're right…..they are not the enemy, they just believe differently than us. It is not Us against Them, such as the Pink Floyd song says. As my original post says, I would love to attend a conference where ALL religions can discuss religion, not just polytheistic beliefs. We have had conferences like that here in San Francisco before but I was not able to attend.

  • sacredblasphemies

    No, I don't have to have to do these things. However, it makes it difficult to relate or even be a part of the Pagan community when most public Pagan rituals or groups do these practices or hold these beliefs.

    Sure. It's not as if anyone is saying I can't be a Pagan because I don't do those things. But I feel like an outsider. My religious practices and even my basic approach are different than most Pagans…which limits my interaction with the greater Pagan community.

  • http://twitter.com/Isewinsf @Isewinsf

    I agree with this, as well as agreeing to badocelot below. You've written it in a very succinct way I could not. :)

  • Harper

    This put it quite eloquently. Oh, I respect a lot of the gripes that these people are raising, but it seems as though the impact and strength of a label or name is being unrealistically overblown. A label for a religious movement can NEVER reflect the intricacies of an individual faith. People and spiritualities are far too complicated. And honestly, what do these expectations of meaning do to how you listen to other people? Does hearing "I'm a Presbyterian" or "I'm a Sikh" actually make anyone think "Oh, I know exactly where that person is coming from, what their religious beliefs are, how they live those beliefs and practices, and how they think"? No, statements like that say simply that a person is part of a religious tradition and that, being a human being, they exist uniquely within that tradition.

    I also don't see why more detailed religious descriptors must negate the term Pagan. It's like the term person of color. A person can be both black, which you are born into, and identify as a person of color, which is a more political statement that acknowledges that there are some shared political and cultural experiences and goals between various races that are historically and presently oppressed. Same deal with Paganism: people have a zillion different traditions and Gods and rituals and spiritualities, but Paganism is a useful umbrella term because it fosters community and interfaith discussion and political gains for freedom of religion.

  • http://jakejackson.wordpress.com/ Skye

    I think that it's easy enough for Wiccans to chastise the Recons about casting off the pagan label, because it was designed to serve them, and it does. And although the Reconstructionist paths have originally grown out of and found their home within paganism, that label doesn't serve us anymore. We're just too different.

    There comes a time where we have to let go of the outdated definition and stand on our own. To gain in power/influence even Christianity had to leave behind it's status as a fringe Jewish sect.

  • Bookhousegal

    Well, it's never fun to feel like an outsider even among the outsiders, but I'm not sure what you're asking 'the Pagan Community' to do about it, …to be overly blunt, (I don't mean to be by tone,) ..what are you expecting to do, have everyone *else* change to conform more to your own desires to not do what they're doing?

    There's certainly room for more inclusivity, but I don't think it's anything to try and re or un-name the whole movement over, if that were even a practical idea.

    I know how it feels in some regards: part of why there's so much 'Wiccanish' influence on how we disparate Pagans come together is cause a lot of those parts happen to *function* pretty well that way. It's hard to tell exactly what the means are in which you're 'different,' but remembering when this sort of discussion came up long ago, it wasn't uncommon for a few people who simply didn't 'agree' with, even contradicted, most of even the broadest sketches of what it means to be Pagan (for instance saying, 'You're occult magical types, ' a stipulation which would actually cut more people *out* of the definition than include, while pretty much removing any sense of coherence to the community's beliefs and values: we may not be *conformists* on any given point, but as a whole, there actually *is* a broad and deep coherence and compatibility: things like Heathenry and some similar groups are a pretty good example of where there can be very distinct identities that in some ways are part of the movement and yet have their own frameworks for it all: they may often sort of revert to acting like we're all a bunch of wanna-be Gardnerians or something, but as these groups find their own feet, it's easier to see where we *are* kin, and what we *do* have in common, instead of setting up SRW as some kind of straw man, and in fact *reinforcing* the notion that 'Pagans are this thing that we don't want to be associated with.' )

    The community as a whole, which isn't to say everything's perfect, is fairly well adapted, I think, to allowing people to gather without having to agree on every single point of ritual or theology: I do think that a lot of us tend to revert to a notion that religion's all *about* defining 'who's in, who's out, who's 'Ultimately Right' and who's 'in error,' …but that's really not what these public rituals are *for.*

    Sometimes we have to do our *own* work on being part of groups we want to be part of: I don't think you'll find us really so resistant to including people: stepping in and wanting everyone to try and rearrange it all to suit just you may be impractical at *best.* You don't have to lose yourself to dance in another way with another group. It may be that with us in general just *isn't* where you belong if you find this way of celebrating the Gods and seasons and Earth and people and ancestors… ( For all I know you want 'Pagan' to redefine into something that's got nothing to do with the rest of us, and if that's the case, I just don't think the name's gonna come *off* the rest of us, ) but perhaps it's a simple matter of disagreement about how many modes of practice one person can or 'should' 'find correct' and 'limit themselves to.'

    Sometimes this reminds me of nothing so much as the perennial back-and forth about soccer vs football vs other games called 'football' …with one group or the other saying, 'That's not football! This is the one true football!' (invariably this leads to people saying which game is 'superior' which doesn't result in anyone playing more of any game, whether they're actually trying to stop a game of the one and make everyone play the other.) Which is 'identity politics,' not … Practice, Never mind playing.

  • grimmorrigan

    Some of them are an enemy and a threat. You get folks like Phelps, Barton, and various others who ustilize hate, threaten the use of violence, and engage in political actions which aim to remove rights, protections, and freedoms from our community you get enemies. Yes we do have enemies and we must struggel against them. The trick is seperating the educatable from the malicious.

  • Bookhousegal

    You know, it really would probably help if people would stop insisting anything that's not their personal or subgroup's ways constitutes a 'generic mishmash' …as if recon groups had some perfect authority out of books and even agreed on how to interpret that, themselves: and as if everyone else must be 'wrong' or ' just 'lazy' somehow. Sounds a little too much like some other forms of religion we tend to disagree with.

    And what we're talking about, in a way, is *conformism.* In some ways, this debate itself tends to resolve itself into being *about* some kind of 'we' vs 'they' who's-in-who's out' mentality that I don't think needs to be encouraged in any way, (I doubt there's any way to be fully immune to it, but maybe this just isn't worth becoming polarized about. No one's forcing anyone to call themselves under an umbrella term that's probably about as inclusive as it can get… Nor I think will it do recon groups any good to simply be avoidant of everything some among them take such pains to negatively-associate with the terms 'Pagan' or 'Wiccan' themselves: in some cases, we even see appeals to right-wing politics as though this was the 'proper, factual way' to be 'Pagan' or whatever sort of politics.

    If you see the whole board, so to speak, I think one might reflect that perhaps what we can call Pagan and Heathen values and the rest actually are more similar than different: the 'problem' is that we just don't *fit* that left-right 'scheme.' It may divide us over elections and social 'issues' but maybe it *ain't our division.*

    Maybe you could grab the political spectrum by the old Libertarian and Green parties and bend it right round into a circle, and find the most of us straddling where that rejoins. I think that if we saw ourselves that way, we'd see where we overlap: how a lot of Pagans that others would find 'off the scale' on some issues are part of our own sort of section of the continuum: it's someone else that created some 'division' between personal responsibility and social responsibility. Between personal freedom and group unity. (I like to say 'Pagans like to keep our personal responsibilities personal and our social responsibilities social.'

    Maybe there's differences on how to go about it, in the world-as is, (particularly in the voting one) but don't we really have a lot of similar ideas about how to live, come down to it, if we look at ourselves in our own terms? Calling those of us more aligned with 'The Left' in social issues 'Socialists' a lot doesn't mean we also don't tend to end up building communities that can be rather clannish and independence-oriented, or tend to treat, say, weapons or intoxicants as the *very epitome* of where personal responsibility and choice are needed. (Never mind *magic:* Lady, but if there's nothing that'll teach you about these things, that's about as direct as it gets.)

    Anyway, maybe if we have trouble defining ourselves, it's not our *names* or differences: it's trying to fit ourselves into someone *else's* divisions and polarizations. Maybe it's just *those* things which 'don't fit,' come down to it.

  • Bookhousegal

    You know, Norse, I got thinking about it in another reply, but perhaps the real thing about this political division you cite as something that 'divides Pagans and Heathens' is so troublesome precisely because they *aren't our divisions.* Maybe this 'left-right' political divide isn't *even* about Pagans to begin with: we didn't make it. Maybe that's why we don't *fit* in it.

    Maybe it's like we all went to our ancestral home and found, not only a lot of our old stuff in various states of repair and disrepair, perhaps with some different notions of what to rebuild…. Not just that, which we often talk about… But also we've found that someone's put up fences all over the place that were never our own boundaries.

  • Baruch Dreamstalker

    Yes, we do have real, common enemies who are, for example, keeping the Maetraeum of Cybele from getting the religious tax breaks enjoyed by every other religious institution in Catskill NY, or promulgating theories that we are not covered by the First Amendment and so advising Republican preseident-wannabes.

  • Baruch Dreamstalker

    I was first introduced to Paganism via Unitarian Universalist Goddess study, and spent about 15 minutes assuming Paganism always meant feminism, liberalism and environmentalism. Exposure to the actual Pagan community quickly informed me otherwise.

  • http://quakerpagan.blogspot.com/ Cat C-B

    I often have the impression that much of the resentment of the Pagan label is about resentment of Wiccans, for being more numerically commonplace and familiar to the public than other religious groups that have been traditionally identified as Pagan.

    The frustration with Wiccans who assume all Pagans believe what they believe is understandable. The resentment towards Wiccans for being Wiccan and being numerous is tiresome.

  • Jonathan

    I'm a Wiccan and I also get annoyed at the way deities are sometimes lumped together in a rather superficial manner. But I see cultural history being ignored not only in in Wicca, but also in the Recon context as well.

    So please understand that there are vast differences between Wiccans on this matter. It is not simply an issue of Wiccan vs. non-Wiccan Polytheist.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jess-Matz/782124235 Jess Matz

    Chicago's good, I have in-laws there. I also like Indianapolis. I do think a central location will help bring in perspectives from all over the country. Southern Paganism (&tc.) is a different thing than Southern Californian Paganism (&tc.), but we share a great deal as well.

  • Malaz

    An international one would be even better…said the guy in Beijing….:)

  • Druidwood

    How can Pagans have resentment against Wiccans? When they are Pagans themselves. If nothing else everything these days are based off Wiccan belifes. Music,calanders,Etc. They are the fastes growing path in the Pagan umbrella. While I personally don not agree with thier founder I do respect true Wiccans Not the ones who watched The Craft & thought "Hey this is for me" If nothing has come from the growth of Pagans we can use Wiccans as a measurement of how well we're doing as a whole. Wicca is the only path that has been acceptable by our goverment as a religion.

  • Druidwood

    We might be different I agree with you on that point but we're all the same in that none of us believe in the Judo-Christian God. I don't see how the word Pagan was designed for them, when condsidering how the word is much older then Wicca itself. Perhaps I am misunderstanding something here.

  • caraschulz

    I shouldn't have read the comments. Classic mistake.

    Instead of spurring a healthy conversation about why groups and individuals are leaving the Pagan umbrella and how we can still work together towards common goals (which is what Jason wrote about), there is instead a general sentiment that they are acting out of bad faith. That people are doing this out of resentment of Wicca's success. Or they stood on the backs of Wicca and are now ungrateful. Or that they lack the gumption to assert themselves within the greater community.

    If a person or a group were thinking to themselves, "Hmmm…I/we don't seem to fit in here, but there's strength in numbers so perhaps I should stay allied with this larger group" after reading the comments how welcome do you think they would feel? Do you think the comments encouraged them to stay or pushed them away?

    If a person doesn't feel they are a Pagan or the label doesn't fit them, I don't look down on them and it's not my place to chastise them or question them. I do invite them to stay allied with Pagans as we push for greater equity within society.

  • http://www.occultcorpus.com Caliban

    Certainly I am pagan – and Pagan for that matter. I make unto myself many graven images, etc. I give lowercase G gods the reverence I feel they merit, and let capital G God be the Great Mystery that It is. I stand in a tradition of initiation, with a lineage more or less known to me. I know where those rites came from and how they ended up presented as the Old Religion, and this equated with witchcraft. I do actually know and practice lowercase W witchcraft still, even as I have largely ceased to identify as Wiccan. But given a blank slot on a form in which to lay claim to a religious belief, I generally write in "Fairy Faith", because I imagine it is under-represented.

  • anonimo

    cat c-b,
    i agree, it is a guilt/dislike to be associated with the new age/fluffy wiccans, eclectic and wiccanesque pagans, trad wicca, and so on. or, it even goes political, not wanting to be associated with feministic/liberal pagan traditions or conservative…
    this is something ive seen on other pagan web sites and in my local pagan community…
    as someone who lives in the usa im too concerned about the freedoms of my fellow pagans (regardless of our differences in terms of traditions and beliefs) to worry about labels at this moment…

  • http://badocelot.com badocelot

    Yeah, reading blog comments is rarely good for one's mood. I lightly skim most comments and only give much thought to the ones that look interesting.

    My concerns with the re-labeling is twofold: (a) I don't want them to stop standing with us for religious freedom and equal respect before the law and (b) I hope they don't expect me to immediately change the way I use the word "Pagan" when not addressing them. The term "Pagan" as we use it today was forged through decades of actual use, and I look at the re-labeling efforts as requests or suggestions for changing that use.

    Precisely the opposite happened in the case of "Wicca," but for the exact same reason. Attempting to treat the British Traditionalists as practicing the same religion as the eclectic solitaries is absurd. But both have legitimate claim to the name "Wicca" because the BTs who cared lost that fight.

  • cara

    My understanding (and this is an opinion I share) from those who do not consider themselves Pagan is they will of course stand together to work for equity, just as they are standing with other religious minority groups. And although they don't consider themselves Pagan, they have no problem how anyone else self-identifies. What they do have a problem with is when others (within or outside of Pagansim) try to force a descriptor on them that doesn't fit. Using guilt and anger to try to bring people 'back into the fold' is not a good tactic.

  • http://badocelot.com badocelot

    I don't think it's forcing a descriptor on them to not immediately stop counting them as Pagans for purposes not involving them personally: for example, for statistical data on what percentage of the population is Pagan. Such uses necessarily involve the standard sense of a term, not someone's personal self-description.

    It would be forcing it on them to call them Pagans to their face after they've made their self-description known: that's just a lack of respect and courtesy.

  • cara

    Generally, a person is asked what they are when statistical data is sought. It's usually done through some kind of polling data. If the data that someone submits is changed (moving them to a category they did not choose) I don't that data would be usable.

  • http://badocelot.com badocelot

    Fair enough: I'll admit my example was not well thought-out. But I think there's still a limit to the extent self-labeling should be adopted by others: should we automatically accept the self-labeling by those who want to be called "Jesus followers" instead of "Christians"? Suppose someone decided they were Wiccan, but not Pagan? Or (as some surveys have actually reported) that they are "atheists" but they believe in God?

    It's really more a matter about how we talk about such a person, to avoid confusing our friends. I'm still probably going to say, "There's this one Pagan who…" rather than launch into the details about how they prefer not to called Pagan but something else unless the specifics were pertinent to the point.

  • http://greeneclectic.wordpress.com Anne Green

    Perhaps this is just semantics, but while I agree we have struggles to work through, framing things in terms of us vs them with the word 'enemy' attached to it doesn't get us there more quickly, and in fact makes it more difficult to facilitate understanding in those who fall closer to the middle of the spectrum.

  • http://greeneclectic.wordpress.com Anne Green

    Perhaps this is just semantics, but to clarify: while I completely agree that there are people out there who threaten us and who see *us* as the enemy, framing things in terms of us vs them with the word 'enemy' attached to them doesn't help us win those battles more quickly, and in fact makes it more difficult to facilitate understanding in those who fall closer to the middle of the spectrum.

  • Guest

    Given that an atheist president of the USA is next to impossible (if not unthinkable, I imagine there are folks who'd rather murder their children than vote for an atheist under the false assumption that an atheist politician would murder everyone's children) in the minds of most Americans I'd have to call "yeah right" on the idea atheists and Christians are on equal footing.

    Besides that there are plenty of Pagan atheists (and even pagan atheists in antiquity) are you suggesting that they don't have a place under the umbrella because they lack belief in god(s)? I know that "evangelical" atheists like Dawkins & Co. like to paint all atheists with "this is how to be a proper atheist" brush but that's hardly the case.

    If there are any common trends among atheists in the West it's because of shared experiences such as internally processing not being the religion they were raised in anymore, or among the people who were atheists their whole lives: dealing with never having been religious but being surrounded by religious people.

    All that having been said I don't know why most irreligious self-identified atheist folks would want to do interfaith conferences with anybody never mind Pagans/pagans of whatever stripe. Then again I've never understood why practice based Pagan/pagan religious traditions identify as "faiths". If practice is truly what is important than how you view divinity is less important to your religious community.

  • Jocelyne Berengaria Houghton

    The non-Wiccan Polytheists seem to think it is that simple, at least from how I'm reading this debate. In my mind, the term Pagan is an umbrella term that covers a wide range of modern religions based in &/or inspired by pre-Abrahamic religions. It would seem that many of those folks instead feel Paganism is wholly Wiccan or "Wiccanate" and therefore do not identify as Pagan. I don't believe this to be the case, but I can see how it can appear to be so – and I'm willing to do the work to make room at the table.

  • Guest

    They're called Hasidim. The so-called "ultra-orthodox" Jews. In Israel there are neighborhoods that a woman would be stoned in the street for having a short-hair cut as it would be taken to mean she was "cross-dressing". The reason few talk about them is Judaism is a small religion (with a big influence) and the Hasidim are very much isolationist within their own communities.

    The point is every religion has people who take things further than the rest of us would view as wise (with good reason in my opinion) but too often the loudest voice tends to drown out the rest even when it's coming from the smallest group.

    What I think is really disgusting is how people are reacting to each other within (and without) the Pagan community over this difference in nomenclature. One the one hand I see many non-Pagan identifying folks writing off Pagans as being "New Age/Wiccan idiots" (never mind that Wicca and New Age are both distinct and while not for everyone their practitioners should at least be treated with respect and/or common decency). On the other hand are the Pagan identifying folks who say "these are nothing but idiots who are obviously just rebelling because they're too stupid to know how better off they are with us".

    Neither sentiment is doing anything to contribute to the conversation or a resolution to the problems at hand.

  • Guest

    To clarify there are many, many Hasidim who are not at all as extremist as the example above and simply wish to live their lives their way in peace.

  • Guest

    The resentment toward recons/polytheists for not shutting up and labeling ourselves as something we don't identify with for the sake of Pagan-identified folks civil rights is getting tiring. I'm left to wonder whether some of the folks espousing that view also believe you have to be LGBT identified to support sexuality/gender minority rights?

  • Jocelyne Berengaria Houghton

    In Canada, the metaphor is that of the mosaic. There are different coloured tesserae; each tessera adds to the larger pattern of the whole, whether or not it shares the same colour of the other tesserae. I have always preferred the mosaic metaphor to the melting pot.

  • Guest

    I have no issue with anyone who chooses to identify me as Pagan. It's simply inaccurate. It would be like if someone said I were a woman. There is nothing wrong with women (the idea that there is is just silly on its face) but it's simply not what I am.

    Of course that rejection of self-labeling goes both ways. How would you like it if your Christian friends or family members called you a devil-worshiper to your face and/or behind your back. According to their theology they're perfectly correct in their assessment. Doesn't mean they're at all accurate when they say so however.

  • http://badocelot.com badocelot

    In that case, one of two things could be going on. They could be genuinely confused about what I believe/do. In which case I don't fit even their use of the term "devil-worshiper."

    Or they do understand my position but are appealing to the Biblical idea that all pagans worship devils and just don't know it. I can't rebut that assertion and I won't even try, except to point out that that's their doctrine, not mine. I wish this was all Pagans were accused of.

    The latter case is one similar to the way I view those whom I would count as Pagan but who reject the label. They can refuse to use the word to describe themselves, and I'll respect that by using the terms they prefer when interacting with them.

    But when i call someone "Pagan" in my dealings with others, I hope they'll understand that I'm not trying to invalidate their self-descriptions; I'm simply addressing a different group using the vocabulary I share with that group.

  • Guest

    What's wrong with using polytheist instead of Pagan to describe someone who identifies as polytheist to someone who is neither polytheist nor Pagan? In my experience Pagan (capital-P indicating modern or contemporary paganism) has come to be synonymous with at least nature-based or earth-centered. That alone fails to accurate describe what I practice. Polytheist does a better job because that's where the focus is in my practice.

    My practice is undoubted pagan but it's not Pagan. Now we can stand here and argue all day long about just where the line should be regarding what Pagan should mean but where does the over-inclusiveness end before the term ends up being meaningless?

    I love the Pagan community and I love my Pagan friends. I have no problem going to Pagan events and even participating in Pagan rites to the extent appropriate. I just don't feel that it's honest to refer to myself as something I'm not. Frankly the insistence on referring to me as something I'm not is mildly annoying but I'm not upset about it. I'll just consistently be here to correct the mistaken identification.

  • http://badocelot.com badocelot

    I guess I don't understand why the labeling issue is so important to people like yourself who are otherwise active in the Pagan community. It sounds like you're saying you're "not one of us" even as you remain, well, one of us.

    The other issue I have is that the "correct" use of a term is set by the people who use it. Comparatively Pagan-ish people like yourself who prefer not to be called Pagan are petitioning the rest of us to change that usage, but the reasons you've just outlined are not terribly compelling to me. By all means, call yourselves what you wish, but please don't expect the English language to change overnight.

    That said, I am starting to come around to your perspective. I'm seeing that applying the term "Pagan" too widely has become a practical problem within the Pagan community itself. Drew Jacob makes a really good case when he says &lt http://roguepriest.net/2011/05/26/why-im-not-pagan/>:” rel=”nofollow”>;http://roguepriest.net/2011/05/26/why-im-not-pagan/>:

    "When Pagans visited the Temple they felt a little confused and out of place.

    It went both ways. Members of our Temple felt awkward going to Pagan events. They got along fine with everyone there, but felt no connection to the typical talk about ley lines, auras, witchcraft and astrology."

    So I'll probably start changing my own use of the term "Pagan" and I hope others will, too.

  • Guest

    Basically what it boils down to is this:

    I hang out with Pagans and I honor their ways while I'm in their space. Likewise when I'm at a friend's house I conduct myself according to his house rules. Hospitality and all that. I do the same for my Buddhist and Hindu friends. They invite me to be a part of their rites as well and I take part in as much as is appropriate but that doesn't make me a Buddhist or Hindu it makes me respectful of my friends.

    I think it's important to note the distinction between Pagan and pagan. Pagan to me implies at a minimum contemporary paganism with the emphasis of Nature-based and/or Earth-centered focus that almost always goes along with the types of groups we're talking about. Lower case paganism on the other hand is the more general term, in my experience/opinion, and can refer to ancient religions that have been historically identified with the term or modern religions which either choose to or can be associated with the term in some way.

    All Pagans are pagans but not all pagans are Pagan, in my opinion anyway, not unlike not all Pagans are polytheists. Like Drew my religion wouldn't be here without Paganism but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's similar enough for me to feel comfortable with the label.

    I appreciate how much it feels like semantics/hair-splitting given how similar the two are to each other but I feel it's important to bring all of the religions under the pagan umbrella into their own. Perhaps if Paganism were less specifically associated with the terms "Nature-based" or "Earth-Centered" it would be more comfortable for me I don't know and I especially don't know what a suitable alternative would be for the meaning of Paganism.

    Which by the way is an important thing to remember: the people who are leaving the label Pagan behind aren't trying to define it for the people who still use it, we're leaving it behind because the majority of the people who use it have defined it to exclude those of us who are Gods-centered, aka polytheistic, rather than Earth-Centered.

    I hear a lot of Pagans crying foul anytime polytheism is, in their view, unduly associated with Paganism but I don't see ANY Pagans describing Paganism as including religions that aren't Nature-based. In fact most Pagans wouldn't consider a religion to be Pagan, in my experience, if it weren't Nature-based.

    If I'm missing the true meaning of Pagan that is supposedly so inclusive of everyone that is lumped under its banner I'd love to hear it.

  • Nick_Ritter

    I think that's fairly accurate, but very often, people come to one form of Paganism or another through pre-existing political / social beliefs or attitudes, and those remain primary in coloring their view of the divine. This occurs to such an extent that they assume that their deity or deities agree with them on these points, and leads to folks declaring others "outside the pale", "not really Pagan". or even flinging death threats at them if they deviate from what are seen as those "norms" of political / social viewpoint within Paganism. Friends of mine have been the target of such anathemizing, as have I myself.

    The problem, I think, is that people treat their *political* viewpoints as primary, as something that would never change even if they changed religions. This leads to religions as being no more than vehicles through which to express and enact a particular political viewpoint. The better approach, I think, is to make one's *religious* viewpoint primary, and to derive one's other viewpoints, including political and social ones, from that. This is no easy thing to do, but I think it is very worthwhile. It is also undoubtedly an easier thing to accomplish if one is practicing or looking to practice an already-established tradition; for instance if one is a Reconstructionist.

    It can be a frightening thing to have one's beliefs and values challenged, to not know where one stands on issues one was formerly all too certain of. It can be a rewarding experience in the long run, though. My political views changed drastically as a result of making my religious views primary, and it took over a decade for my views to settle into something consistent. This took a lot of introspection, and a great deal of facing hard questions.

    Unless many more people are willing to undergo this sort of introspective ordeal, I don't see many in Paganism throwing away the politics of Left vs. Right, a political divide born out of other people's ideologies, any time soon. I think this is unfortunate.

  • http://norsealchemist.blogspot.com NorseAlchemist

    Guest, not that you don't have a good point, but:

    Paganism = polytheism

    Polytheism = belief in many gods

    Atheism = belief in no gods.

    Um….Kinda steps out of the umbrella there.

  • Nick_Ritter

    A fine sentiment, overall. I do not wish to split hairs, but a few things caught my attention:

    "the Roman derision"

    Though the term 'paganus' is certainly Latin, the derision of non-monotheists as 'pagani' isn't a particularly Roman thing, but rather a Christian thing. I wouldn't want to see Roman reconstructionists left out in the cold.

    "the traditional religions"

    I understand what you mean, and it makes sense in context. However, I had to re-read that sentence to get the sense of it, because I think of my religion and ones like it as "traditional religions," and of Christianity and the like as the newcomers that have gone against tradition (and have given a bad name to "tradition" by posing as "traditional").

  • http://www.facebook.com/thaniel.chase Thaniel Chase

    Kudos for reminding us all that we need to start from the assumption that we're all coming from good hearts and reason. That's exactly what so often gets lost, and then discourse is doomed. As a Celt my 1st impulse is to go to war, so I especially need this reminder :-)

  • Bookhousegal

    That's an interesting post, Nick: I think part of it is that in the recent expansive growth of Paganism by whatever name, people are *still* tending to sort into trads by personality type: but this isn't necessarily something that will hold for generations upon generations, never mind a thing one can permanently-establish: sure, a certain *type* will be many of those attracted to, say, Heathenry, but will all their kids be so? (What happens when the really-conservative ones inevitably have some gay kids? What happens to the academic Druids when their kid's a jock type? The Wiccans when the kid's just plain *conservative-minded?* (That's apart from reacting-to-parents: I do mean temperament. :) ) Of course, all these trads have tools to deal with this, and that's when we see how things really come to life. I see a lot of remarkable second-and-third generation Pagan and Heathen kids out there, and one thing's clear, it's not about these kinds of arguments a lot of us are having, but it *does* really bring things to life. Not something to be *afraid* of, but something to *remember in the now.*

    Some would make us these little 'sanctified' "independent" 'economic units' …but it really does take a village. And a village really does take all types. Wherever we found others have left fences.

    I'm not sure that some lines of 'trad' or nomenclature really are what will always define those 'villages,' like we could just plug our opinions on such into whatever it is we're doing and expect it to fly.

    I do think it's about living together, in the metaphorical if not physical sense.

    Hard to say, really, how my politics shaped or were shaped by my religious path: My spiritual one, certainly. Some say 'A conservative is a liberal who's been mugged,' and 'a liberal is a conservative who needed help,' …I dunno, that all kind of blurs together. I don't think I was *defined* by politics when I really accepted the path. I suppose if I was, I'd have been in politics. As it was, I suppose I didn't really think so much about politics as a way I could actually help anything, ..I suppose I had a bit of an outlaw attitude, not cause of any sort of anti-social inclinations, just a wounded sense of rules, like many of my generation.

    Always felt like that renegade plumber or electrician or whoever in that movie 'Brazil.' …didn't think I could fix 'the system,' …don't think I was ever *trying,* certainly not on the polarized terms of today, … but I could darn well fix *something.* (Or break problems, I suppose, and the next and the next and the next: even with some darn good help and lessons from the Gods, took a long while for that to really sink in, if it ever really has. Great way to burn out,) Sure wasn't expecting *all this,* but here we are.

    In some ways, I like surprises: they mean you're still alive. Maybe all this politics just tires us out. But in a way, it's a conversation we as a species haven't been able to have like this, before.

    As Pagans of whatever sort, we're among other things, a well of possibilities, not rival statues or codices, never mind political parties or the temperaments those seek to polarize. I'm not even sure that's what it's going to be about, later.

    If you look at what's happening to the monotheists, they're splitting up and reorganizing according to sects and these political divisions, too. I guess we'll see how it goes for them, too, but I wouldn't want to wait around arguing to find out. :)

    There's things we can do, and right now, this is the team we got. Ready or not, here comes tomorrow.

  • Adrian Pertuset Columbia

    I think the reason we use the umbrella term "Pagan" is because it is a uniting force that bands all of us who are polytheistic, with earth-based spirituality, reconstructionism, and the like. It is a way for us to set aside what differences may occur within our own beliefs so that we may band together to form a united front so that we can achieve results. We want rights, protections, and opportunities afforded to mainstream religions and therefore we must put our differences aside to see that the term pagan is not one chock full of negative connotation but rather one of unification and strength.

    And yes, I am a happy hedge pagan.

  • http://jakejackson.wordpress.com/ Skye

    What I meant was that the modern use of the word Pagan serves the Wiccan community well. When a Wiccan uses it to describe themselves, the person usually assume that right things about that particular Wiccan. When I, as a Reconstructionist, say I am pagan, that person automatically assume that I practice some form of witchcraft and subscribe to duotheism.

    I believe that mainstream Wicca differs too radically from the practice and philosophy of my path. This isn't to say that Recons should completely cast off the label, I think that we should still be considered a branch of "Pagan Religion." But we should also develop a more communicative descriptor that we could use as a better face for our movements.

  • freemanpresson

    Very well said. If there was a better term than Paganism, I'd be all for it, but I think it would have surfaced by now.

  • Crystal7431

    You could always speak up, hold a workshop or something in a larger festival. Don't wait for someone to represent you. Represent yourself. You may be surprised how many others like you there are out there attending Pagan festivals.

  • http://phantomcircle.blogspot.com/ Modred

    What is it exactly that we should be uniting together to fight for? Rights? Rights are for prisoners. Do the truly free have need of them? For acceptance? The qualities that make our faiths appealing to us are precisely what make them unacceptable to the majority. If acceptance was ever our goal we chose the wrong path.

  • Crystal7431

    Yes, but Paganism doesn't necessarily mean polytheism. In some minds it does, but I know a handful of Pagans who very much believe in the spirit realm but not deities. I have no problem with identifying athiests as Pagans.

  • Crystal7431

    Exactly, Hadaig. Why are we allowing someone other than ourselves to define us?

  • http://sites.google.com/site/mrlccog/ Oberon

    The Midwest Region Local Council of Covenant of the Goddess (primarily Wiccan/Witch, but hey we network too) has groups in Chicago and near Indianapolis, so we might be able to help too. (I'm near Detroit, but am the current First Officer and read and post here somewhat)

  • dashifen

    I've got nothing to offer but the possibility of web help. I'm the tech dude for a variety of things and as long as there's time in the schedule, if you need help with the web stuff, I'd be happy to assist.

  • Scorpivs

    So, you are saying that the least harmful path, which by comparison is pagan, is too cliquish to become mainstream? I certainly hope not. I wish paganism to be the primary path of the planet, so we can all get along and work towards leaving this planet for other worlds.

    If 'being green' and caring about the planet was just a fad, and not the best path to pursue, then why do more and more people accept it as a good idea? Paganism, like 'being green', is more than just a fad -it's a genuinely good way to live…as such, we should welcome as many to it as we possibly can!

  • Crystal7431

    I keep hearing about these people who assume people are Wiccan when professing to be Pagan. I haven't met these people, I guess. Personally, I'm always surprised when I hear someone who professes originally to be Pagan, say they're Wiccan. Maybe, I don't get out enough or maybe it's just that anecdotally most Wiccans I've met say, "I'm Wiccan," as opposed to "I'm Pagan." Sort of similar to how most Catholics I know, profess primarily to be Catholic as opposed to just stating they are Christian. I know in a lot of New Age mass market books the terms Wicca and Paganism are conflated but that's like going to the village idiot in order to get to know the village. Not the best idea.

  • Crystal7431

    "I hear a lot of Pagans crying foul anytime polytheism is, in their view, unduly associated with Paganism but I don't see ANY Pagans describing Paganism as including religions that aren't Nature-based." I do. Is it just me?

  • Crystal7431

    Tell that to a single parent who's losing his/her child in a custody battle because he/she is Pagan. Tell that to someone who just got fired because somehow he/she was outed for being Pagan. Mainstream doesn't have to like me. Hell, for the most part, I don't like the mainstream, but as a citizen the mainstream needs to realize that I and anyone else who calls him or herself Pagan deserve equal treatment under the law.

  • Bookhousegal

    I think the 'atheists' (Not meaning the non-theistic spiritual people) are kind of going their own way in some ways: and frankly, they seem to have taken the tack of being as against *all* religion or 'supernaturalism' as they call it, in any form in many regards: in the process they've branded themselves with a lot of particular baggage that might not actually make much of a coherent representation in terms of representing 'alternative religious views' or whatever category: most self-described 'atheists' are good friends and good people but aren't even related to the 'Pagan culture' so to speak that's developing and I think we're talking around.

    I suppose you could have Pagans who don't actually believe in Gods, but practice or are culturally so, anyway, aforementioned people who are with the spirit world but unconvinced of Gods, (Been there, myself, long ago, really) or just see Them non-theistically, (not so uncommon, really, either, much to the lament of some. )

    It doesn't happen *too* much, but sometimes you meet people who've been *raised* Pagan in one set of terms of another who *don't happen to 'believe in the Gods,' when you put it that way, * At least not in the ways this sort of thing is usually discussed in other religions: and indeed in the ways that seem to revolve around self-identifying as 'an atheist.'

    Since we aren't creedal to the extent that one can say 'I don't believe *literally*,' and still be part of the culture, even the practice, it seems pretty rare, so far, but it happens, and it *will* happen as more and more of we who are here for callings and have kids who may not.

    I've counseled someone through someone in just such a position, (And a better Pagan than many 'believers' in some ways, indeed, ) and what I told him was basically that 'believing' is just one of those wonderful things we can do, and a point of contact, but it's not the be-all and end-all as far as what anyone says Gods think of one. What we do and what we experience and what we *feel* is, after all, what this sort of life's mostly about. I caution against really trying to absorb the idea that Pagan paths are really about *tests of belief,* but I do think the '-ism' called 'atheism' is not really part of the 'umbrella.' Another 'minority religious viewpoint,' certainly, but perhaps that -ism' isn't part of the same thing, per se: if we rephrase the description of the 'umbrella,' a little …is it really a 'minority culture,' or a 'minority spirituality'? Gets a little thin, there.

    I don't think people should *need* an '-ism' to be Pagan by any description, or necessarily a profession of literalist belief: I don't think people really question Christians and Jews …'Do you really believe in your head and heart,' before they're considered parts of those groups: they just talk as if they do sometimes and call it 'crises of faith' or whatnot. :) (Come to think of that, I've seen *that,* too, among a few 'Pagans:' people who really *do* believe more than they think and are having a crisis about how to 'prove' it or whatnot. :) )

    When it comes to whole *paths* that are non-theistic: say, animist types, then it could be said many share a similar worldview and from theirs, just don't recognize or call a lot of things 'Gods.' That certainly seems to fit better, and they do experience nearly-identical social issues and prejudices. …including being called 'atheists' *for not believing in dominant monotheisms* just as those same dominant monotheisms tried to equate 'Pagan religions' and 'Indigenous religions' with 'No religion.'

    For 'Atheism,' well, that may just be about a different worldview than all of us, commonly expressed ….negatively, in the terms of other types of religion: namely, creedal ones.

    As Guest mentioned: ' pagan atheists of antiquity' would still largely be 'pagan people.' What are they 'not believing in,' y'know?

    Just a few thoughts on that.

    Which isn't to say there isn't common cause: notably about religious freedom, but in an interfaith context, I don't think 'Atheism' falls under the general umbrella in the same sorts of ways: they don't consider themselves a religion, notably, and the '-ism' tends to say 'More Gods! Even worse! More 'primitive! :) ' ….Might take a different sort of outreach, that, or a more specific purpose.

  • http://ianphanes.livejournal.com/ Ian Phanes

    My religious practices and even my basic approach are different than most Pagans…which limits my interaction with the greater Pagan community.

    *Why* does that "limit [your} interaction with the greater Pagan community"?

    I can see why that would give you no desire to participate in Wiccanate public ritual or join a Wiccanate ritual group, but why does that limit you from *interacting*? Do you only interact with other pagans in ritual settings?

    In Champaign-Urbana, IL, we have a monthly social called Pagans Night Out. My basic approach and practices diverge from pretty much everyone there. But we can still hang out and interact. And I'm in a better position to meet those individuals who do overlap practice and approach with me. Further, my presence there may encourage some individuals to explore a greater diversity of practices and approaches.

  • http://ianphanes.livejournal.com/ Ian Phanes

    My model is that paganism is a web of cross-cutting ties. Person A participates in multiple practices with other individuals, some of whom participate in multiple practices with other individuals, some of whom… The end result is a religious milieu, not a specific religion nor a cluster of unrelated religions. What's more, that's how traditional paganisms look as well.

  • http://ianphanes.livejournal.com/ Ian Phanes

    The older meaning of "faith" was not "belief", but "fidelity", as in "keeping the faith" or "faithful to ones spouse". Fidelity is a key value in most of the IE cultures. In fact, the word "Asatru" means "fidelity to the Aesir".

  • http://ianphanes.livejournal.com/ Ian Phanes

    It's worth remembering that the diversity in any of the Abrahamic religions is *much* smaller than the diversity in modern paganism.

    For example, all Christians accept mostly the same scriptures; even though some traditions add additional ones, no Christian denomination rejects the primary canon. All Christian denominations honor the same three Powers: Father, Son, and Spirit; even though there is some variation in how they think the three interrelate and what they believe about the nature of Jesus. All Christian denominations have the same core mysteries: baptism, and the holy communion; even though they vary in the details of form.

    By contrast, modern pagans don't worship the same gods as each other; most don't have any scriptures, though others have various scriptures; and we can't agree on whether or not their should be mysteries, let alone what they should be.

  • http://ianphanes.livejournal.com/ Ian Phanes

    Correction, *some* non-Wiccan Polytheists seem to think it is that simple.

    There are a lot of us non-Wiccan pagans of various stripes (and many of us with multiple stripes) who are deeply invested in the complex diversity of modern paganism, and know that no simple bifurcation accurately describes the situation.

  • http://ianphanes.livejournal.com/ Ian Phanes

    Does this mean I have to stop honoring Esu (a Yoruba trickster orisa), since he's not European or Near Eastern? I don't think he'd be too happy with that.

    I strongly disapprove of any attempt to define paganism rather than describe it. By that, I mean that I'm opposed to any attempt to create a definition and toss under the bus anyone who doesn't conform. Definitions inherently limit–that's their function, after all. Rather, I am in favor of *describing* our diversity.

  • http://ianphanes.livejournal.com/ Ian Phanes

    Yeah, that's their definition. But I don't have to accept it.

  • Guest

    Every single time I've ever identified as being non-Nature-based or non-Earth-centered to a self-identified Pagan I've been told not only that I'm not Pagan but that I'm an eco-cidal maniac bent on raping the earth for my own selfish pleasure. Perhaps I need to hang out with nicer Pagans?

  • Elyssa

    i thought the definition given earlier by someone that any religion except the big 3 "Christian Jewish and Islamic "(at least here in good ole USA) falls under the umbrella term Pagan it would include Hindu Buddhist and indigenous tribal type religions too. Why not since even those faiths have limited power in our society and are not considered mainstream. In the USA if you are not one of the big 3 you are a second class citizen to some degree in how society treats you politically. Strength in numbers helps us all. I know that being Hindu per say may not lose you a job or a custody battle but in some communities here but maybe it still could in front of the wrong judge in the wrong area. Some of our people in power are zealots and extremists, or am i just paranoid? I personally don't care how anyone self identifies but i do care about personal freedoms being trampled by the status quo.

  • http://egregores.blogspot.com/ Apuleius

    If we look at the Big Picture, then recognizing the common ground that we Pagans have with Buddhists and Hindus becomes even more important. Those two religions, Buddhism and Hinduism, have done two things that merit our admiration and attention: (1) they have successfully resisted centuries of aggression by both Christians and Muslims, and (2) in doing so they have preserved ancient religious traditions to an extent that proved to be impossible in Europe.

  • http://phantomcircle.blogspot.com/ Modred

    I'm not saying discrimination doesn't stink. And I certainly think that paganism is more than a fad. I just wonder if it makes any sense for pagans (and other minorities for that matter) to fight to be accepted players in a game that is inherently flawed.

    "Mainstream" is precisely what is wrong with the world. Civilization is a 10,000-year-old failed experiment, and we should be fighting to get everyone out of the game instead trying to get into it. If there were no laws there would be no custody battle. If there were no jobs, there would be nothing to lose.

  • http://xkcd.com/285 Eran Rathan

    Modred wrote:
    If there were no laws there would be no custody battle. If there were no jobs, there would be nothing to lose.

    Laws are there to protect the weaker from the stronger; to make for clear duties and responsibilities between parties, and give a way to settle disputes without going to the knife.

    Look at it this way: if there were no laws, the strongest would impose their will, creating law by whim – and you end up back at the days of absolute monarchs and warlords. And look at how great those days were for things like science and medicine. *rolls eyes*

    And if there were no jobs, everyone would starve.

  • http://phantomcircle.blogspot.com/ Modred

    Laws were invented by monarchs like Hammurabi and Urukagina circa 2,000 BC to maintain the status quo, which they still do. For the previous million years there were no laws and no jobs, and we made it just fine.

    I apologize for touching off a mini-debate on Green Anarchy. This isn't the place for that, and I'm sorry.

    My point is simply that for some pagans there is no desire to become an accepted part of the mainstream because what attracted them to paganism in the first place is that it comes from outside the religious/industrial/military/civilization complex. Every day I'M fight for a way out — not for a way in.

  • http://xkcd.com/285 Eran Rathan

    Modred wrote:
    Laws were invented by monarchs like Hammurabi and Urukagina circa 2,000 BC to maintain the status quo, which they still do.

    Yes, as well as provide, in barest sense, a framework from which to enact the functions of government: 1. to provide for the common weal and defense, 2. to provide remediation of wrongs, and 3. to define contracts. One could add in define currency, but thats not technically necessary.

    Modred wrote:
    For the previous million years there were no laws and no jobs, and we made it just fine.

    Who makes the food? Who get the best spot next to the fire in the cold months? When there is only enough food for half the tribe, who decides who gets to eat and who dies? When one person attacks another, what is their punishment to be? Even if the responses are enculturated, they are still laws (Look up 'common law', its a good place to start).

  • http://phantomcircle.blogspot.com/ Modred

    Eran, I respect your viewpoint, but let's continue this debate elsewhere. It really isn't relevant to Jason's topic. I'll create a post to my blog called "The Anarchy Debate" and you can comment there.

  • Ingus

    If you worship Eshu you're a Vodun, not a Pagan. If you are a Black being a Vodun is a great thing, since it means you're honouring your roots and ancestors; if you're a White… why should a White being an adherent to the African Ethnic Religion?

  • http://xkcd.com/285 Eran Rathan

    Ingus writes:
    However, do not get me wrong, you're free to worship Eshu and other Orishas whether you're Black or White,

    Why, tha's mighty kind o' you, masta sah! So good dat we po' folk has somebody likes you takin' care o' us, lettin' us'n know which of da gods is ok fo' us'ns to worship, ya honah! (Hint: that's sarcasm.)

    Ingus writes:
    but you should define yourself Vodun, not Pagan.

    Why?

  • anonimo

    meh. ingus has shown his true colors….no surprise

    eran – why you ask? because the european congress of ethnic religions defines the true definition of paganism, according to ingus and some other europeans. not all…
    and apparently, the rest of us pagans should subserviently follow this definition because the ECER is the supreme authority…

  • Malaz

    Hey Ian,

    What I was saying was that "it's their word", therefore it's their definition.
    Why not use a completely new word?

  • http://ianphanes.livejournal.com/ Ian Phanes

    When I want to honor my ancestors, I go to a Christian church. My ancestors were Christian–mostly Roman Catholic. So I've made a habit of attending mass on or near All Saints/All Souls to remember my ancestors in the way *they* would want me to. That's just good manners.

    And there are several things wrong with your statement "If you worship Eshu you're a Vodun, not a Pagan.":

    Esu is not worshiped in Vodun, though some loa such as Papa Legba and Matre Carrefour are similar to orisa Esu. In the Western hemisphere, Esu is worshiped in Santeria (as Eshu) and Candomble (as Exu). However, I worship the Yoruba orisha Esu, not the variations in the diaspora. (Which is why I use the Yoruba spellings of orisa and Esu, not any of the diasporic spellings.)

    Also, even if I was worshiping Legba, I would not be practicing Vodun unless I was practicing in accord with that tradition. My devotions to Esu, while inspired to some degree by traditional practices in Africa and the diaspora, is not consistent with any tradition. (And a person in the Vodun tradition is never referred to as "a Vodun".)

    Further, my list of primary gods is: Dionysos, Mathonwy, Phanes, Esu, and Gwydion. Dionysos gets honored in my non-Wiccan Craft, my Wiccan Craft, and Hellenistic-influenced folk-pagan devotions. Mathonwy gets honored primarily in my non-Wiccan Craft. Phanes in my Wiccan Craft. Esu receives folk-pagan devotions inspired by both African and diasporic practices. And Gwydion gets honored mostly with folk-pagan devotions, though I also hymn him before doing a psychic fair, as he is the patron of my divination stones. There is no label other than pagan that is broad enough to encompass my range of practices, no matter how much they disturb your tender sensibilities.

  • http://ianphanes.livejournal.com/ Ian Phanes

    Malaz,

    First off, I was responding to Ignuz' citation of the ECER's definition, not the RCC's definition.

    Second, the RCC has a long history of defining the terms of their debates, no matter what the rest of the world uses the terms to mean. (The primary example is that "catholic" means "universal, held in common". That's certainly not how they use it.) So I'm not prone to give their definitions much weight. The simple truth is the Roman Church doesn't own words, except for words that are exclusively ecclesiastical terms. The people who use the words are the ones who "own" them, if anyone does. And the word pagan has been in common use (not just ecclesiastical use) for a millennium and a half. One of the uses of pagan was as a descriptor of the Roman Church by the Protestant Reformers. When the Protestants used "pagan" to describe the Roman Church, do you think they accepted the Roman Church's authority to define the word?

    As for "Why not use a completely new word?", because then *no one* will know what you mean.

  • http://ianphanes.livejournal.com/ Ian Phanes

    If nothing else everything these days are based off Wiccan beliefs.

    And that is exactly what non-Wiccan-derived pagans resent.

    When every "ecumenical" public pagan ritual in an area involves casting a circle and calling quarters, and is scheduled to celebrate one of the eight sabbats, the many diverse pagans out there who aren't Wiccan-derived don't feel very welcome.

    Christianity really is similar enough that they can have ecumenical events where they all say the Lord's Prayer together and praise Jesus with hymns and scripture readings that everyone present can relate with. Paganism ain't.

    The solution, in my opinion, is to actively work to express and celebrate the diversity of each local pagan community. And that means that the Wiccan-derived pagans have to be willing to help put on public rituals and the like that are clearly non-Wiccan-derived. It means that the majority need to actively and consciously compromise to meaningfully include the minorities.

  • http://ianphanes.livejournal.com/ Ian Phanes

    Please note that not all of us speaking for paganism as an umbrella term are focused on civil rights, or acceptance, or any such thing.

    My motivation for supporting paganism as an umbrella term is that my experience and my reading of various research all shows that the various traditions and practices have overlapping membership. The reality is that paganism is neither one bounded religion nor a group of religious isolates. The reality is that modern paganism is spaghetti–as all real paganisms have always been.

    I ma more interested in describing reality correctly than I am in clear definitions.

  • http://ianphanes.livejournal.com/ Ian Phanes

    I remember when the Craft was Moon-centered, not Earth-centered. And I'm never going to be Earth-centered. That language will never be meaningful for me. And I've been pagan a lot longer than most of the folks who are calling it Earth-centered.

    I remember when paganism was magical religion and the Craft was fertility religion, before they became nature religion.

    And I expect to see the next convenient over-generalization emerge, and hope to live long enough to the see the one after that.

    And through it all, I'll continue to pay attention to the reality of cross-cutting ties, and the complexity of individuals' practices, rather than worry about the over-generalizations.

  • Sunflower

    Your speaking of being a dharma pagan, an Advaitist and panentheist brought a smile to my face. I don't find many of us out there.