ISRAEL MAILBAG: First, I should note that everyone who wrote in has been civil and thoughtful. No flames. I also note that I’ve been really lousy about answering email lately, so if you sent me something this week and I haven’t responded, uh, well, you’re not the only one. Work just heated up again and will be boiling away for another week at least; I will try to post quite a bit but email will fall by the wayside.

Here’s the initial vast post. Here are the responses, with no commentary from me (I will comment later on some, but almost certainly not all, of these points):

Blogadder’s final word.

A (satirical) suggestion from a permalinkless Talking Dog.

The Kairos Guy: “Okay, now, taking your arguments one at a time:

1) Illegit state. I’m basically with you, except you didn’t mention that the only difference between Israel and EVERY ONE of her neighbors is that Israel created herself, rather than being imposed by the League of Nations. Strikes me that Israel’s claims to legitimacy are that much stronger.

2) Settlements. The question of settlements is not as cut-and-dried as the NY Times would make it seem. But since you’re prepared to let the entire issue slide, so am I.

3) Endangering Americans. This is a variation on Plato’s question about goodness: Do the gods love something because it is good, or is it good because the gods love it? The Arabs don’t hate us because of Israel, I believe, they hate Israel because of the US. If that is true, Americans are endangered already.

4) No reason. This argument assumes the conclusion, and so begs the question. (Hey, I finally used “begs the question” in its original, philosophical sense! Wahoo!)

For:

1) Anti-semitic. I don’t think you are automatically anti-semitic for questioning aid to Israel. But I do think there is a strong risk of anti-semitism, as my other emails said. One never has to justify support of France or Japan in quite the terms that one has to justify support of Israel. Is that in fact antisemitic? Let’s just say I’m skeptical.

2) Always support… This is close to axiomatic to me, as close to a religious truth as I will admit to foreign policy. It seems to me that our long term interest is always served by this, even if in the short-term it presents risks. I have yet to hear a refutation of it that leaves my faith ragged. I’m not saying there is no such refutation, only that I have not heard of it.

3) We are stuck with them. Realpolitik is gritty and ugly. But I can’t see a way to walk away from them for the near term.

The client state thing deserves its own treatment some time when I have more time.”

More from The Talking Dog: “Actually, the legitimacy of the State of Israel is almost unique in the annals of world history; its establishment was mandated under a resolution of the United Nations General Assembly around 1947 (of course, the same United

Nations General Assembly that devotes somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 of its time condemning Israel, and of course, the same United Nations with a refugee arm that supports, breeds, educates, and, probably trains, Palestinian suicide bombers). Israel then fought a MIRACULOUS war of independence (losing 1% of its Jewish population in the process) when all of its organized Arab neighbors took it on militarily. So, while the Jews could have had their homeland located in Uganda, as once proposed by the British; or Siberia, as proposed by Stalin, somehow, there would be dangers attached to that too: Jews have always lived in a tough world. It was understood that WHEREVER the Jewish state was located, it was going to be a powder keg. So it just happens to be where it is. But for the fact that its enemies sit on a black liquid that this country is addicted to, we would ignore its enemies as the modern day medieval $#@!holes (that haven’t contributed anything to the world in centuries) that they are.

As to the stolen land argument, I daresay the occasional Navajo or Sioux might have better reason to question a certain other country’s legitimacy than those of Palestinian Arab descent. There are land grabs, and then there are acts of genocide accompanied by land grabs. Israel can, at worst, be accused of the first one. The United States? Well, let’s move on… Most–not all, but most– so-called Palestinian refugees have recent ancestors who only showed up in Palestine from other parts of the Ottoman Empire at

around the same time as the Zionist interlopers for the enhanced opportunities offered by the Jews and their oppressive Western health, sanitation, education, infrastructure and economic standards.

As to your personal background, mine is similar, my father and brother are Jewish as well (as are my mother, sister, wife and daughter, but I digress). As you know, under the Nuremberg laws, your status was “close enough” for a one way train ride, as is mine, of course. While Jews are certainly subject to an unfortunate level of violence against them in Israel these days, we as a people, alas, have a lengthy historical memory of persecution. I daresay a typical year or two of pogroms in Bielorussia and Ukraine would have racked up comparable numbers to the Intifada–without a mighty Jewish air force and military apparatus present to impose

punishing (though sadly, not completely deterring) retaliation. So, I respectfully dissent from this argument, as well. Hell, if my choice were to live in Israel, or France, right now, I’m not sure I wouldn’t take Israel. It would certainly win out over Russia.

I agree with you (obviously) on the Supporting Israel endangers Americans fallacy. Arab elites, alas, are simple (though hopelessly corrupt) people: they respect power, the more rawly displayed, the better. Frankly, what is endangering Americans is our support of ARAB regimes, notably Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, whose gratitude is expressed by sending us acts of terrorism. And of course, we suffer from the catastrophic and insane act of weakness displayed by 41 when he (1) wouldn’t let Israel (here we go again!) retaliate

against Saddam directly (you know–they might have just taken him out and solved most of our problems), and (2) didn’t take out Saddam himself, thus forcing us into a longstanding containment game, with no good outcome even possible.

Anyway, having more or less established Israel’s (1) legitimacy, (2) benefit as a safe haven for the Jewish people and (3) real irrelevance in terms of the current threat faced by the United States, you come to the more interesting argument: is it a good investment?

I offer this. Unfortunately, we have seen how effective our own intelligence apparatus has been recently; perhaps 5 guys in the whole

freaking CIA who can read and understand Arabic, the third or fourth most prominent language in the world, and of course, the language of the most troublesome people in the world right now. Well, the Mossad and Shin Bet can read Arabic. And they can read tea leaves, and otherwise, act as a very effective intelligence source FOR US (which they are; yes, they spy on us; it is unfortunate that they see the need to do this– I would have hoped by now that they would be like Canada, Australia and Britain, but then, we had

James Baker as Secretary of State, didn’t we? Not to mention George Bush as CIA director, as well as president (twice)). On the whole, though, Americans are idiots with respect to world affairs. We need someone smart out there: Israel fits the bill perfectly, and for the most part, is a critical and trusted ally. For this alone (as well as being a bulwark of liberal, democratic values in a mostly dark region), they are worth every dollar we ship there.

A more interesting question is what exactly we are getting out of our FAR MORE SUBSTANTIAL investments to help Muslims, be it in Kosovo or Bosnia-Herzegovina, Kuwait or, come to think of it, Afghanistan. (And don’t forget that Jordan and Egypt get pretty much around the same aid package that Israel does). Oh wait– I saw what we were getting for this from my office window on September

11th.

The fundamental problem with our foreign policy is that we are often willing (and sometimes forced to) make expedient compromises, backing less than liberal, democratic nations, for which we later pay the price. I assert that that is where the country finds itself in the war on terrorism. Saudi Arabia and Egypt are regimes that should get every bit the same priority for regime change as Iraq or Iran, and yet…

I sincerely beg to differ with the proposition that the United States has EVER gone wrong backing a nation with free presses, free markets and free elections. Is Israel perfect? Hell–I don’t live there, and haven’t even visited (I hope I’ll get there one of these days; possibly by boat).”

From Christopher Jones: “One of your reasons in favor of support for Israel is ‘Always support every mostly-democratic and vaguely-liberal state’. I have a good deal less sympathy with this reason than you have. Firstly because I disagree with the principle of always supporting a liberal democracy (which I will elaborate on presently); and secondly because I have grave doubts that Israel qualifies as a liberal democracy. As to the principle, my first question is, why in a given situation should we ‘support’ any state

other than our own? If Canada, Paraguay, or Zimbabwe don’t have to have a ‘Mideast Policy’ and choose up sides between Israel and Palestine, why must we? Some may argue that our pre-eminence as the sole superpower imposes this responsibility on us; but even if that were true (which I don’t believe), our first responsibility is to our own safety, security, and national interests. Any responsibility for other states is clearly secondary.

As for preferring the more democratic state, I hearken back to John Adams’s recommendation that America should always be “the friends of liberty everywhere, but guardians only of our own”. True democracy and liberty will much more reliably take root in a nation which has earned its own liberty as our forefathers did than in one which owes its liberty to the largesse and military force of a great power.

You’ve hinted at my second point by the heavy qualifiers “mostly-” and “vaguely-“. The truth is that Israel doesn’t fit all that well into

Americans’ working definition of “democracy”. An American-style democracy is a secular, multi-racial state based on the rule of law and respectful of the rights of individuals and of ethnic and religious minorities. Israel has no written constitution and no Bill of Rights. Israel has an explicitly ethnic/religious basis. Israel is able to be a democracy only because a large part of the indigenous population was driven out and is not allowed to return. In short, Israel is a democracy only for the Jews. When the Palestinians are allowed to return to their homes in Israel as full citizens, then Israel can justly claim to be a democracy. Then we can talk about democracy as a moral basis for American support.

In your discussion of the anti-aid reason “We have no reason to support Israel”, you treat it as somehow related to “Supporting Israel

endangers Americans”. It’s not. It is really the heart of the matter. As a small-government conservative (which I think you are as I am), I believe that government should do only those things which further its essential mission, which (in the case of the federal government) is to defend the country and its vital interests. The small-government philosophy should apply to foreign just as much as domestic affairs. Thus the burden of proof should be on those who think we should NOT “mind our own business”. I think the supporters of Israel should have to come up with positive, explicit reasons why it is in America’s (not Israel’s) interest that we should

support Israel. I’ve yet to see it.”

From Stephen Dodson: “The only things I would add at the moment (I’m sure if I sat and reflected for a while I could come up

with lots more, but I’m at work) are that 1) “If the U.S. abandons Israel, Islamist terrorists everywhere will rejoice” is way too reminiscent of the main reason we stayed in Vietnam: “If the U.S. abandons Vietnam, Communists everywhere will rejoice”; and 2) unconditional US support for Israel is not only damaging to the US (as is our similarly driven policy on Cuba, but the latter has far less drastic consequences) but profoundly corrupting to Israel: being able to do whatever they want and not face any consequences

except fretful tut-tutting means those who rule Israel have been allowed to grow increasingly megalomaniacal and out of touch with reality. If we cut back our support so that they were forced to come to terms with the people they have to live with for the long run, it would be better for them, for the Palestinians, and for us.”

From the Lord Mage of Good: “I’ve been following politics since I was four. Seriously. I’m that big a nerd. And, since age four, I’ve more or less been a Republican. And, from about age four to age twelve (still not kidding) I was a massive Israel backer. In third grade, we had a debate over whether Mondale or Reagan should be President. (I

was lucky; I got to back the winner and my favorite, all in one.) Anyway, a point I made — which not one of my peers even pretended to understand — was that, with Reagan, we’d have a President who would support Israel, ergo, all democracies, and isn’t that a good

thing?

Then the intifada started (or at least, I became aware of it) and my opinions started to change a little. I knew, intellectually, that it wasn’t Israel’s fault that they had bullets and the Palestinians had rocks and Molotov cocktails, but I couldn’t help but be moved a little. Fast forward five years, and I’m suddenly confronted with a real chance for peace between Israel and her enemies, and forced

to admit that if nothing else, I’d have to thank Clinton for helping that come about.

For the next several years, I grew more strongly pro-Palestinian (ending up about dead-neutral on the subject). I’d say of Arafat: “Look, he’s trying, he’s the best we’ve got, etc.” I was *pissed* with Bibi Netanyahu for basically telling us to get stuffed, even if he was telling Billy Boy (when you’re from the South, you get an automatic right to make fun of *anyone* from Arkansas) and the thumb-squatters at

State to shove it. “You don’t bite the hand that feeds you,” I told a friend in a debate we had on the topic.

And then Barak — honest, decent-hearted, crypto-Carter-wannabe though he might be — got bitch-slapped for trying to do more than any other Israeli Prime Minister ever dared. And those folks over at the New York Times started saying that it was Sharon’s fault for going to Temple Mount (for which I no longer read the Times except on jump-cite), basically acting as a mouthpiece for the PA and The Nation.

And then 9-11.

My point is, in this condensed-but-not rendition, to say this: I understand. And after all this time, it seems to me that we have to stand with Israel.

Here’s why: You give shorter shrift to some solid reasons for support than they deserve (or so it seems to me), or more accurately, you miss some of where your logic seems to lead.

Israel’s survival is dependent in part on her ability to stand alone economically, right? And that’s hindered by the weird socialism her Ashkenazi founders brought to the table, right again? First, this seems a bad line of thinking on which to make policy decisions; we all come into the world flawed, but we all hope for a helping hand along the way. And if we turned our back on every democracy with a troubled founding and uncertain economic systems, there go (at various times in the last sixty years): England, France, Japan, Taiwan, Spain, Mexico (I’m from Texas, I can talk your ear off on this one), and, let’s be honest, almost every other democracy in the world. Most are pulling themselves out of the toilet. Taiwan went from being a marginal kleptocracy to an economic powerhouse, and a real democracy to boot. Why won’t Israel? Indeed, why wasn’t Israel, before this new Intifada? Theirs is a lousy democracy in form, but not in content — you have an opinion, there’s probably someone representing you in the Knesset. Sephardim aren’t dealing with political exclusion any more. Their economy was picking up fast (look at their high tech and health sectors) and developing the crucial

infrastructure for future development — world-class universities, well-educated workforce, increasing capital mobility, and dramatically increasing world trade. It wasn’t perfect, but it wasn’t as big an aid drain as it had been. And yes, that irritating kibbutz dream was still lingering, but it was *dying.*

Admittedly, their economy is in the tank now, but that’s (a) hardly surprising and (b) not a good excuse to kick them in the teeth. They’re getting there — like Taiwan did.

On a second (and for the sake of your poor eyes, probably last) note, like Taiwan, they’re a good case for “charity aid.” Charity aid is not just because we support democracies as a matter of principle (although there’s a good argument for that, and you touched on

part of it); it’s also a matter of exporting, albeit indirectly, our views to the world and giving them an upclose and personal look at what being America’s friend can do for you. It’s a de facto way of saying, “Hey, free trade and democracy can do wonders for YOU!! SIGN UP NOW!!” It’s also — on a more explicitly Realpolitik note — a good way to have a beachhead where we might need it in the future. As you say, our enemies in that region will come for us at some point; we might as well have a landing strip in place. Yes, Turkey does the same thing, but why throw away a perfectly good knight just because you have a bishop fianchettoed in the corner? The two can actually give you checkmate, if used just right.

Last (quick) point: I fail to see why the fact that a more or less democracy is a pariah among its neighbors is a reason to drop it. That smacks of defeatism. We should encourage such experiments; after all, we descend from one.

Yes, I’m a conservative, so my sympathies reflexively lie with Israel; but I’ve given this a *lot* of thought the last couple of years. And it seems to me, that at the end of the day, you stand with your friend, even if he did just get back from a meeting of the Socialist International.”

From Adrian Edmonds: “I came to live in Israel just over two years ago and I’m still trying to learn about it. For sure there are no easy answers but on thing I do know. Far from being ‘ a light unto the nations of the world’ Israel is turning into a very unpleasant place.”

Again, thanks to all who wrote. If I didn’t link to your commentary, by all means email me with a heads-up.