10 Signs You’re Actually Following TRUMPianity Instead of CHRISTianity

10 Signs You’re Actually Following TRUMPianity Instead of CHRISTianity June 25, 2018

In the Era of Trump’s America, I must admit that I hardly recognize the very people who raised me. I was brought up by the Religious Right, and went on to become a faithful foot soldier for the cause of conservative Christianity and right-wing politics until my mid 30’s. However, long gone is their commitment to the values they tried to instill in me, and so much else that once consistently encompassed their collective identity.

Sadly, my old tribe seems to collectively struggle to realize they’ve done exactly what they spent the entire Left Behind series warning me not to do: they have fallen in line behind a worldly leader who arose to power during a time of “wars and rumors of wars,” who did so by falsely pretending to be a Christian, but who would ultimately lead them to follow an entirely new religion.

To help my former right-wing family out, here’s the top 10 signs you’re now following TRUMPianity instead of CHRISTianity:

10. You spent 8 years criticizing every move of Obama, but the minute Trump was sworn in you started telling everyone that “Christians should respect the president” and that being “divisive” is a sin.

Remember the you of two years ago? That’s okay, because I do– and you certainly didn’t seem to believe that Christians should “respect the president” or that being politically divisive was any sort of sin.

Here I am recalling you taught me that, “sin is always sin” and doesn’t change just because culture changes. Huh!

9. You think, “but we’re a nation of laws” somehow trumps biblical teachings on how immigrants are to be treated.

You didn’t expect me to forget all of those years where you taught me that the Bible is the “final authority for all matters of living,” did you?

Good, because I didn’t– but it certainly sounds like you did. I’m reminded every time you dismiss what the Bible teaches about the treatment of immigrants with, “But, but… we’re a nation of laws!”

I thought you’d said, “We have a responsibility to follow God’s law, not man’s law!” just a few weeks ago. Silly me!

8. Your church is planning a “patriotic worship service” for the 4th of July.

Let me simplify this for you: there’s no such thing as “patriotic worship” unless you’re willing to simply admit you’re worshipping your own country.

You were the ones who taught me that if God isn’t the focal point of our worship, that it’s sinful idolatry. Surely you remember Jesus saying, “It is written: worship the Lord your God and serve him only”?

Apparently there’s now room for two. Strange!

7. You instinctively applaud when Trump threatens to “bomb the shit” out of people, but quickly push back if someone quotes what Jesus taught about violence and enemy love.

Jesus commanded we love our enemies, and that we never repay evil with evil but instead repay evil with good. I mean, it’s right there in the red words. I still have it underlined from 1984.

But now when I quote that in response to your thinking that it’s all cute when Trump wants to “knock the crap” out of a protestor or nuke a country, you tell me that I’m twisting scripture.

Sorry, but I think siding with Trump over Jesus is… as Trump would say: Sad!

6. You think that having a filthy mouth and boasting about sexual immorality is a sign of being unsaved, but when it comes to Trump you all of a sudden have a “Who am I to judge?” attitude.

I mean, c’mon. I grew up under your guidance and I think we both know that neither one of us ever thought we’d see the day when you became an advocate of not judging. You told me that if I had sex before marriage or used the F-word that it would be evidence I was never saved to begin with.

Doesn’t it seem odd to you that it was Trump, and not Jesus who got you to (selectively) soften up on the whole judging others thing? Interesting!

5. You think it’s God-honoring to refuse to bow to a national statue, but that you should be fired from your job, kicked out of the country, or even charged with treason for refusing to stand for the flag.

Let me get this straight: When everyone obeyed the king and bowed down to the national statue and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego refused– under the pain of death– to pledge their allegiance to anyone except God, they were the good guys of the story…

But fast forward to present day America, and the good guys are actually the ones who want to force everyone to pay respect to the national symbol? Plot twist!

4. You want the nation to return to “biblical values”… except for all those socialist sounding biblical things like caring for the poor, welcoming the stranger, giving food to the hungry, etc.

So you really want the nation to return to “biblical values”? You do realize that when Israel lived under God’s law (which you love to quote when talking of same sex marriage) also included laws that mandated the rich be taxed, even down to the food they had, and that the wealth was to be redistributed to the poor and immigrants, yes?

Or is this the one situation where you’d rather not remember that you keep saying, “But God’s law never changes”? Confused!

3. Your church spends one month a year celebrating the story of refugee family who fled their violent homeland and secretly crossed the border to safety, only to return home years later where their son became another unarmed person of color killed by the state’s violent security forces because they “felt threatened”…

Yet you spend 11 months of the year missing the obvious. Ironic! 

2. You claimed Barack Obama’s election was the result of evil forces, but the minute Trump was sworn into office you started quoting verses about how “God picks a nation’s kings and queens.”

For real, how does this work? Did God only get involved and start deciding elections with the past election cycle, or did you just start quoting this verse after the black guy left?

There’s a lot in this world I don’t know, but I do happen to know the answer to *that* one. Easy!

1. You spent the 90’s saying “character counts” but now say, “We don’t vote for a national pastor.”

Ahh, my absolute favorite sign you’re following Trumpianity instead of Christianity.

Version of you from today, I’d like you to meet the version of you from the Clinton administration. You were supposedly so morally outraged that you coined the term, “Character Counts” to explain why you felt Clinton was unfit for office.

The version of you from today? My, my… as I listen to you explain that “We don’t vote for a national pastor…” I am keenly aware of how having the political power changes things. Totally!

So you’re a loyal Trump supporter and a loyal Christian?

I’m not so sure.

You might want to take a more self-critical look and make sure you’re following Christianity, and not Trumpianity. Really!


unafraid 300Dr. Benjamin L. Corey is a public theologian and cultural anthropologist who is a two-time graduate of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary with graduate degrees in the fields of Theology and International Culture, and holds a doctorate in Intercultural Studies from Fuller Theological Seminary. He is also the author of the new book, Unafraid: Moving Beyond Fear-Based Faith, which is available wherever good books are sold. www.Unafraid-book.com. 

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  • Patrick

    Bravo to you sir!!! As much as I would love to recommend this to my trump supporting friends, I am quite sure they would brush it off as casually as they brush off trump’s myriad shortcomings.

  • $144948586

    This is a good article, thanks Dr. Corey.

    On note:
    “So you’re a loyal Trump supporter and a loyal Christian?
    I’m not so sure.”
    Take it easy with this.

  • lisa

    As a pastor in training, I was recently bullied by several of my church peeps for taking a stand regarding the refugee situation. it seems their go to thing is that I shouldn’t be political. I told them flat out it’s a moral issue and a Jesus issue. they didn’t want to hear it. It seems I’m on someone’s crap list now. but I feel somewhat of a prophet in these scary times. Benjamin you help me keep my ground

  • SamHamilton

    My recommendation is to tell your fellow congregants that politics is merely the process by which people with different opinions and version of the good life live together peaceably under the same “roof” despite those differences. Not getting involved is just as political as getting involved. Taking Jesus seriously means we will engage in politics, and that’s a good thing. Christians need to be involved in the process of making decisions about how we live together. I think pastors should stay out of partisan politics…they shouldn’t be making suggestions to congregants on voting or be out rallying for particular candidates or parties…but helping their congregants work their way through various political issues is important. There are ways to do this that are respectful and there are ways to come across as dogmatic and condescending. And who knows…congregants might help their pastor work through some things too! Best to you in this effort. Thank you for your service to the church.

  • Olaler

    What’s sad is that we cause refugees with our bombing and arming of Islamic militants (especially in Syria) and then won’t accept the Christian refugees we’ve made. Assad is bad- but he was protecting Christians from radical Muslims. Rand Paul was crying out in the Senate wilderness about all this, to little avail. [there’s a TYPO in 2nd paragraph-“worldly leader”-not “reader”] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DveDwEk122Y

  • otrotierra

    Thank you Dr. Corey for again speaking truth without apology. This should be required reading for every U.S. White Evangelical. Will they have eyes to see and ears to hear? Let’s observe:

  • ashpenaz

    Isn’t The Sound of Music basically the story of what’s happening at our border today? Except with dark-skinned people? Maybe if they sang “Edelweiss” as they crossed into America. . .

  • Brian Christensen

    Another great article I would share…but it was aksed “are you following some left leaning creed instead of Authentic Christianity”. Took a while to assure the friend (he’s an assoc pastor at a Calvary chapel) that no…I did not join any heretical cult…just trying live Christ like beyond the 9-11 AM sunday service.

  • Brian Christensen

    The verse that says it all. Next presidential strategy should use it – John 19:15b.

  • Ron McPherson

    Mic drop!

  • MHO “nobody’s” have energy for a cult!! The one where they have the most interest is the one that tickles their ears! Their God is their belly!! It takes a revelation from the Holy Spirit and hitting the bottom where the addictions stop working in order to actually get the recovery ball rolling in order to have have any character at all like Jesus!!

  • You made me read the Bible!!

  • rika888

    Oh, Thank you so much for this! I am forwarding it on. You tell it like it is so much better than I’ve been trying to do. Everything you say, I say AMEN to. The hypocrisy is astounding. How can they live with themselves and the lies they embrace? I see it in good friends I thought of as sincere Christians. How they at first were worried about Trump and his message and now embrace it and make excuses for it. I cannot understand this sea change except that the power of EVIL is powerful indeed.

  • MHO if you get into a room with too many Trump supporters back out slowly!! https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d0f5f01634ff431b3438b155560ac05d56f2a728ab70b60199929788d5a0bbc5.jpg

  • rika888

    They would. They are totally brainwashed and wrapped in their smug self righteousness. We may have to kidnap and deprogram them in the end…( said tongue in cheek….or not?)

  • rika888

    Jesus was attacked and bullied too. “Blessed are you when men will revile you for MY NAME’s sake”. Be strong. Prayers.

  • So you advocate harm to the President? Who are you to judge him with death? Why do you even think this is appropriate? Grow up, get a life and stop this non-christian behavior before this turns on you.

  • Why should this subversive blog be required reading for anyone? Why don’t you try reading the constitution.

  • Trump was elected to run the country not to run a congregation and be judged by them.

  • In the words of Peter Strzok, we can smell you coming and you would not get in…

  • Brian Christensen

    Did you read John 19:15b? It was talking about the religious leaders saying they dont want Christ…they wanted Caesar as lord. If you are equating Christ with Trump…well….others will get the point…but unless your eyes are opened ….

  • Brian Christensen

    _______ was elected to run the country not to run a congregation and be judged by them. (put in the name Hitler, Stalin, etc). We are called to pray and submit (different than obey – Paul didn’t). By the way my first Bible study was in James taught by a very close friend of Corrie Ten Boom (she passed away in the city I worked in). She is no doubt before our Lord but would be aghast at were the church has gone. Wheres a Bonhoeffer when you need him.

  • MHO Bob by your own words and actions you are getting closer to this…. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1c77b9469abc24b22bd226b06aaa2d178286a1ef5bbcba81c8d326df8a2369d4.jpg

    Gunna pray for you buddy!!

  • You have no idea what you are doing by invoking names like Hitler do you?

  • Why use words at all?

  • rika888

    What, Bob? What?

  • rika888

    That sounds really lovely. Jesus wouldn’t get in either. No, you would not know Him.

  • Judgmental comment without foundation or basis in fact.

  • rika888

    Iknow you by your lack of compassion. by your heart. but God is your judge in the end. You can rant on to Him.

  • “They are totally brainwashed and wrapped in their smug self righteousness. We may have to kidnap and deprogram them in the end…” More descriptive of Progressives. Say hello to Maxine for me.

  • Mark1115

    Conservativism and Christianity are mutually exclusive, one can be a Conservative, or a Christian, but not both.

    Conservative is based on selfishness – how to work the system to get as much for yourself, your family, your in-group, as possible, even at the expense of others. Every primary conservative position boils down to selfishness.

    Christianity is based on self-sacrifice, a deity so loving, it sacrificed itself on our behalf. Christ consistently taught selflessness, and his core law includes ‘treat everyone else as you want to be treated’. He also said that how we treat others, particularly the oppressed, reflects our relationship with Him – what we do for the oppressed, or to them, we do for or to Christ.

    One cannot serve conservativism and Christ. It is an either/or situation.

  • Mark1115

    Bearing false witness like that is sin. Please repent.

  • Mark1115

    Why did you specifiy Christian refugees?

    Are non-Christian refugees less than human, in your opinion?

  • Mark1115

    Good for you for preaching the Gospel, and then living it.

  • Mark1115

    According to Jesus, you’re wrong with your ‘take it easy with this’ bit.

    24 “No
    one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the
    other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You
    cannot serve both God and money.”

    Matthew 6:24

    Frankly, Benjamin can be stronger about it. Conservativism is intrinsically incompatible with Christ’s teachings. You cannot serve both God and conservativism – which is entirely about getting and conserving as much wealth for yourself as you can.

  • Mark1115

    Your derogatory fantasy about Brian only indicates that you cannot refute his position.

    Only closeted Nazis dispute the accurate comparison between trump and hitler.

  • Mark1115

    That’s an apt characterization of every post you have here.

  • Mark1115

    Why did you chose the nazi lifestyle over Jesus?

  • Jonathan Duncan

    I guess you are a nazi out of the closet then, comparing Trump to hitler is offensive to holocaust survivors.

  • $144948586

    “which is entirely about getting and conserving as much wealth for yourself as you can.”
    Where’s you get this definition of conservatism?

  • lucky21

    Yeah, and you have a mentality that is not so different from people who say you can’t be liberal and Christian. It’s believing only your side can have God. That’s a caricature of what you think conservationism is.

  • Scott Harrison

    Mark my words. “Christians” in America who endorse this man or who overlook his antichrist character will, sooner or later, be ashamed of their complicity in his heinous reign. I witnessed a conservative Christianity in Apartheid-era South Africa which was broadly silent before the state’s wickedness – or which endorsed it – and when finally the church was confronted by its lukewarmness it was catastrophic. We look back now and say, “How could we have been so blind? Were we afraid? Did we just believe the state and the state church’s propaganda and twisted truths? How did we end up on the wrong side of history, how did we find ourselves aligned with evil and judged by the church and history for our folly? American Christians beware, for the weight of the shame will be heavy.

  • Why not both?

  • Shoah survivors, in my admittedly limited but extant experience, are generally pretty sanguine about pointing out when things are heading down similar paths. Unless you are one, it is hard to take seriously your pronouncement about what offends victims of the Shoah, and even if you are one, you do not speak for the many others who have no problem seeing the connection and are not offended in the least by the drawing of it.

  • Olaler

    Most certainly notmost certainly not. Syria is a country with h a majority of Muslims, and has been invaded by radical Muslims that persecute, rape, and behead Christians- so they are in more need of asylum. Muslims murder Christian missionaries in many countries.

  • Kyle

    Brother, I am glad for the constitution, but the Bible trumps it any day

    (yes, the play on words was my bad attempt at a joke).

  • Kyle

    And Jesus was killed for his politics.

  • Kyle

    If he is president of this democratic republic he is the national face of each of us, therefore we have full right to state our criticisms for the good of the republic… that is why the forefathers made sure we have free speech… it’s part of the checks and balances in the system… that is included in civics classes. We have a president who represents and works for the people and not a king or lord. For that I will turn to Jesus.

  • Kyle

    I was writing a paper on Bonhoeffer and I read that as many as 80% of the pastors did.

  • Experience.

  • Matthew

    Thanks so much for this SamHamilton.

    I struggle with just how much I should be involved in politics as a believer in and follower of Jesus. My current theological paradigm has real problems with the world and ideas of Caesar and empire. As such, I often lean to the side of cutting and running from the whole enchilada while attempting (and I emphasize “attempting”, I´m still not really good at it yet) to truly live a revolutionary, counter-cultural Gospel life that doesn´t engage the world of mars, mammon, militarism, etc.

    It was truly good to read something that helped me reflect on a more balanced approach with respect to the topic of political involvement for the Christian.

    Thanks again.


  • Matthew

    How are things going Bob?

  • Are you saying that presidents are beyond all judgment from their constituents?

  • $144948586

    “about pointing out when things are heading down similar paths.”
    Like what? Did I miss a beer hall putsch or something?

  • $144948586

    Lol well I’ve experience many a poor conservative and many a rich liberal. What say you about that?

  • Foolish and deluded people bleat like sheep waiting for a sign not realizing their impetus is from the Evil One. Better open your eyes while there is still time.

  • “Conservativism is intrinsically incompatible with Christ’s teachings.” Self-serving comments used to make you feel better about your rebellion. So did the angels who fell tell themselves the same thing. They were wrong and so are you.

  • Harassing people going about their personal business is one step closer to violence. Comments from Maxine exhorting harassment are not protected speech. She should be censured.

  • Very well indeed as our President continues to keep his promises despite all the superfluous interference.

  • Not at all. I am saying that presidents are not pastors. Trying to conflate what some feel Jesus would do and what a president should do is often self-serving as seen repeatedly in this blog.

  • Trying to conflate what some feel Jesus would do and what a president self-professed Christian should do

    FTFY. And this is why the argument is so odd. Conservative Christians were quite insistent that they knew what Obama should have gone and done with himself, being a Christian. Why so shy, now?

  • That there are a lot of people who believe they will one day be rich, and will step on the heads of everyone around them to do so, even though the rat race doesn’t, at the end of the day, do anything but screw them in favor of those who are already rich. Poor conservatives are those who drink the piss of the wealthy because the wealthy called it probiotic organic lemonade.

    Delusions of anticipated reward works better than actual reward, because it’s less expensive for the same results.

  • I do remember some brownshirts khakipants who, according to your idol, included some very fine people, marching proudly and beating the crap out of black people. They did even manage to kill someone. They are scheduled for a repeat in DC in August.

    When history repeats, not everything happens in the same order.

  • Eric Lingenfelter

    I’m glad you’re finally of seeing the light, but I’m not sure how much change you can actually affect until you recognize that this is exactly what white supremacist evangelical Christianity has been since at least the Reagan era, and not some sort of aberration that was somehow single-handedly caused by Donald Trump.

    This reeks of ass-covering, frankly.

  • Nimblewill

    I agree with every statement but its cyclical. Christians who support Republicans say the same things that Christians who support Democrats. Go back to Clinton and look at what was written about his Christianity. Its an American problem. We crave power.

  • $144948586

    “even though the rat race doesn’t, at the end of the day, do anything but screw them in favor of those who are already rich.”
    How does the rat race screw people in favor of those who are already rich?

  • $144948586

    “I do remember some khakipants who, according to your idol, included some very fine people, marching proudly and beating the crap out of black people. ”
    You don’t remember their opposition threatening conservative speakers on campus?
    You don’t remember a crowd of 200+ backing a woman into a wall and throwing eggs at her?
    You don’t remember the several fist fights that broke out at Trump rallies, which, if we see the destructive behavior of “antifa” on college campuses as evidence, were likely not instigated by Trump supporters.

    “They did even manage to kill someone.”
    You don’t remember a guy who killed 5 in uniform?

    Have you not heard of protesting (illegal harassment actually) of Kirstjen Nielsen in a restaurant?
    Have you not heard of Sarah Sanders being kicked out of a restaurant?
    Have you not heard of the Florida AG getting spit on after screening a Mr. Rogers ?

    Yeah, the impetus is certainly the “khakipants”. (sarc)

  • “I must admit that I hardly recognize the very people who raised me.”

    I presume that you were raised by traditional evangelical Protestants. The list is a revealing glimpse into the differences between (some) mainstream Protestants and the Anabaptists.

    #10, #1. Those Anabaptists I discussed this with came out in two different ways. Some would never vote for Trump. The rest were voting for Trump precisely because he was the best available choice. Yet none voted for Hillary. I didn’t know anyone who voted for Trump because they thought he was a great person and I don’t think anyone regrets their choice.

    #9: This is a strawman argument. Enforcing laws doesn’t mean we have to act inhumanely. The two are not mutually exclusively. The solution to inhumane acts is to act humanely, not to cease enforcing the laws.

    #8, #7, #6, #5, #3: Most of these fly directly against the Anabaptist teachings. They highlight some key differences between the Protestant and the Anabaptist. We give no allegiance to the state, but we pray for our leaders, regardless of political affiliation. We believe in non-violence.

    #4: Helping the poor and feeding the hungry has always been an Anabaptist focus, as is general charitable work. Heifer International was originally developed out of the Church of the Brethren and has income of nearly $150 million/year. MCC has income of nearly $90 million/year. Here lies another strawman. Helping the needy is not mutually exclusive to opposition of SSM. Indeed, the Lancaster Mennonite Conference’s split with the the Mennonite Church USA highlights this. The LMC makes the claim that it is the MCUSA that has been making exceptions to biblical values. So even if Protestants are guilty of hypocrisy on some biblical values, it doesn’t logically follow that any of their other doctrines or political positions (e.g. SSM) are incorrect .

    So you’re a loyal Trump supporter and a loyal Christian? I’m not so sure.

    It’s the fallacy of the excluded middle: there are many more options than just “blind unthinking Trump loyalist” and “completely anti-Trump”. Many Christians support a wide selection of Trump’s policies. This does not necessitate approving of his faults.

    What is the point? Is it to try to push an anti-Trump political agenda, as recent previous posts have done? Or is it to push people towards a more Christ-like way of living. This article reads like the former.

    It’s easy to make this apolitical. If you are a traditional Protestant and some of Dr. Corey’s criticisms describe you, consider embracing an Anabaptist denomination.

  • You don’t remember their opposition threatening conservative speakers on campus?
    You don’t remember a crowd of 200+ backing a woman into a wall and throwing eggs at her?
    You don’t remember the several fist fights that broke out at Trump rallies, which, if we see the destructive behavior of “antifa” on college campuses as evidence, were likely not instigated by Trump supporters.

    You seem to know much, much less about the collapse of the Weimar Republic than you intimate. Even if your characterizations were correct, the primary symptom of systemic collapse of the rule of law and civil society was rampant streetfights between brownshirt gangs and the gangs of competing political groups, so that tracks pretty much perfectly.

  • Matthew

    Are you interested in the World Cup at all?

  • $144948586

    “Even if your characterizations were correct, the primary symptom of systemic collapse of the rule of law and civil society was rampant streetfights between brownshirt gangs and the gangs of competing political groups, so that tracks pretty much perfectly.”
    Are Trump supporters going to college campuses and busting windows?
    Are Trump supporters egging women?

  • Patrick

    And he is running it . . . . right into the ground! Embracing and praising dictators, trashing long standing allies, separating families, paying off pornstars, a chaotic revolving door of staff and officials in his misadministration, the list keeps growing. “A conservative is a person with two good legs who has not learned to walk forward.” – Franklin D. Roosevelt

  • Obama got a pass on the virulent personal criticisms because he was black and his detractors were afraid of being called a racist. He was rightly criticized for lying about Obamacare to get it passed and for failing to back up his Red Line in Syria and for his secret Iran agreement with a plane full of Cash in the middle of the night, etc.

    You do not know in general what conservative Christians said in distinction to conservatives. But I do not remember Obama being criticized for his actions as anti-Christian except when he allowed the Yazidi’s to be slaughtered and stood by while the Nigerian girls were taken captive, and tried to force the Catholic nuns to support abortion, etc.

    The point is we are not a theocracy but a constitutional republic. President Trumps critics are now irrational and borderline subversive. After the Blue Wave does not materialize and many Progressives are rejected the noise will settle down as this President is actually cleaning the swamp as impossible as that may seem.

  • North Korea has been neutralized for the moment; you are foolish to repeat that Embracing mantra.
    Telling the world we will not be their Trade patsy anymore is long overdue. How does that effect you?
    Pornstars? Really. You expect me to care about his personal conduct 11 years ago. Grow up.
    Separating children as in the Obama started it and built your “cages.”
    Chaotic staff is just another democrat talking point and it is obviously not correct: tax reform, economic performance like no one has seen since Reagan, crushing ISIS, etc.
    Your facts are as skewed as your comments. Not one thing you mentioned is true or relevant.

  • Kyle

    The point is that we need to read the constitution through the lens of the Bible and not the other way around.

  • Kyle

    I personally do not agree with some of the ways people are handling things and I especially thought Maxine crossed the line into dangerous dialogue (the same stuff Trump has done many times) but that does not take away from what I said in any way. You’ve simply tried to change the conversation, brother.

  • I think Mr. Corey’s central point is the ‘Cyrus the great’ labeling of Trump by so much of Evangelical Christendom. In a nutshell, I understand Corey’s message to be addressing the, “Obama is the antichrist and Trump is the savior” mentality. But Christendom if filled with foolish brides. Christianity, in its proper and authentic application, is referring to the remnant; the 8 souls who boarded the ark, the 2 families who saw the promised land, the 3 souls that survived Sodom and Gomorrah, the discerning believers who left Jerusalem at the warning of Messiah, “And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.” – Luke 21:20.

  • So I take it you’re a liberal? I think your definitions of ‘conservative’ are poor at best. In the context of ‘conservative and liberal,’ conservative is to hold more to the traditional way of life and liberal is to expand the ways of life not holding to tradition.

  • Actually, the Sound of Music is a promotion of Roman Catholicism and it’s ‘king,’ with a hidden reference to Nebuchadnezzar’s, decree, “Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” – Dan 3:15

  • american

    This article promotes a caricature which shows normal, sensibile people as wild-eyed nuts. It is akin to the way a fun house mirror works. I know plenty of Trump voters, none of them look like the picture we are shown here. I’m sure you can find some people who slightly resemble this in the “backwater” of the right. That’s where we prefer to keep them. On the other hand, the left celebrates their wild-eyed nuts, electing them and celebrating them in entertainment media (see Maxine Waters, Kathy Griffin and Samantha Bee for starters.)

  • otrotierra

    Unfortunately for Trump supporters—they can only serve one master, not two. They have made their choice, and this is how history will remember U.S. White Evangelicals still following Trump.

  • “You’ve simply tried to change the conversation…” What then is the converstation?

    ” I am glad for the constitution, but the Bible trumps it any day”. Two separate documents: one Spirit and Truth; the other a landmark human achievement.
    “If he is president of this democratic republic he is the national face of each of us.” Presidents run the government not Facebook.
    ” that is why the forefathers made sure we have free speech” Not present at the leading Universities in this country anymore because Progressive Liberals don’t believe in Free Speech unless it agrees with their ideology.

    Note the Supreme Court just now has upheld the President’s travel ban showing the progressive circuit court judges to uphold the law not their personal political feelings. It is a ringing endorsement of Conservative principles!

  • Marques Bradley

    It tricks poor people into making the lives of rich people easier and lives of poor people harder by promising that if they work harder for less that they too can be rich, while rich people are actually working less to make more themselves.

  • $144948586

    “while rich people are actually working less to make more themselves.”
    I bet you can’t support this claim;
    You think Bezos work less?
    You think Musk works less?
    You think Jobs worked less at the end of his life (out of choice)?
    You think the Millionaire Next Door works less?
    You think Zuckerberg works less?
    You think Gates works less?
    You think Buffett works less?
    You think Elison works less?

    “It tricks poor people into making the lives of rich people easier and lives of poor people harder by promising that if they work harder for less that they too can be rich”
    How do they trick people? They just “tell them a promise”? I’ve never gone to work because someone promised me I’d be wealthy one day; I went because they gave me money for my time and expertise.

  • Kyle

    Its ok brother. I was trying to engage with you in conversation but you are more interested in “winning” and repeating random talking points. Thank you for your time and I wish you the best. Have a great week.

  • Brian Christensen

    As a software engineer I am away that there on some website there are bots…basically electronic people that post just to stir up the pot…divisive…fake news….unfacts.
    If and when our president says some that scripture doens’t say…or twists it…and you agree with him OVER scripture….then all I ask or pray is that you turn…2 millennia ago conservative religious leaders shouted “We have no lord but Caesar”. Are your doing the same….with the same final conclusion?

  • Olaler

    Ask them if Jesus or John the Baptist were ever political? John the Baptist condemned Herod’s adultery , and Jesus called the king a fox. Luke 13:31-33
    31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.

    32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

  • You won’t find me confusing Scripture with Government. Conservatives don’t look to the President to quote scripture; but we applaud him when he does. It is refreshing to have a President that believes he is a Christian and bows to God rather than a sophisticated intellectual who presumes to speak for God; remember Nebucadnessar.
    But citing Hitler as a leftist bot will just ensure violence as the Left will not stop in their efforts to resist this President.

  • Brian Christensen

    As long as you realize that Hitler also quoted scripture AND thought God was on his side…..AND the Church (at lest some of it) was quite happy that he did. My son lives near the Church I hope to visit that Bonhoeffer spent some time with that helped him to decide to start the confessing church and resist Hitler.

  • Robert Olschlager

    I support Trump and it has nothing to do with Christianity. I don’t give a damn if the man worships a cabbage. I support his policies.
    Funny how the writer of this article sits in judgement of others, though.
    Isn’t that a big no no with you so called Christians?

  • apoxbeonyou

    Calling out hypocrisy is not being judgemental.

  • Marques Bradley

    “You think Jobs worked less at the end of his life (out of choice)?”
    Yes. Jobs was wealthy enough to never have to work another day in his life and he made the choice to continue his work until he unfortunately passed. Poor people don’t have that choice. If they make the choice to stop working, their lives stop working too.

    “How do they trick people? They just “tell them a promise”?”
    Yes. The latest iteration of this promise is “trickle-down economics”. Rich people convinced poor people to restructure our economic system to funnel more money into rich people’s hands with the promise that overflowing riches would one day trickle down and help the poor. It’s been at least 40 years and conditions for poor people have only gotten worse because the money they were promised never trickled down.

    “I’ve never gone to work because someone promised me I’d be wealthy one day; I went because they gave me money for my time and expertise.”
    That’s awesome, but people choose careers based on upward mobility all the time.

  • $144948586

    “Jobs was wealthy enough to never have to work another day in his life and he made the choice to continue his work until he unfortunately passed. ”
    This is a much different claim from what I asked, which was:
    “You think Jobs worked less at the end of his life (out of choice)?”

    Yet, you admit he did work; I’d conjecture it’s because he loved to do that work. And I suspect he put in longer hours than I choose to to do it.

    “Poor people don’t have that choice. If they make the choice to stop working, their lives stop working too.”
    You just admitted that Jobs didn’t stop; for the record, Steve Jobs wasn’t born fantastically wealthy, he worked until he got to the point of being fantastically wealthy.

    “Rich people convinced poor people to restructure our economic system to funnel more money into rich people’s hands with the promise that overflowing riches would one day trickle down and help the poor.”
    How do they funnel money in to rich people’s hands?

    “It’s been at least 40 years and conditions for poor people have only gotten worse because the money they were promised never trickled down.”
    What poor people are you talking about?

    “That’s awesome, but people choose careers based on upward mobility all the time.”
    So you agree that upward mobility choice is an option “all the time”?

  • Patrick

    Ask Putin about the embracing. I think he’s rather fond of it.
    The effects of tariffs are not yet in. Patience Bob, patience.
    His personal conduct 11 years ago? The hush money payoff was just prior to the election. Try to keep up.
    Separating families is the result of a Trump policy, not an Obama law. Again, try to keep up.
    Yea, stability in this misadministration is a real strong point. Keep your head in the sand if you wish.

  • Patrick

    Make the same request of trump. Never mind, the Constitution is over 140 characters.

  • Patrick

    While the wannabe dictator-in-chief sits in judgment of NFL players who exercise the rights represented by the flag while he calls them sons of bitches, then he sings the praises of murderous dictators like Putin and Kim Jong Un. How very American of him!

  • Marques Bradley

    “This is a much different claim from what I asked, which was: “You think Jobs worked less at the end of his life (out of choice)?””
    Again, my answer is yes.

    “Yet, you admit he did work; I’d conjecture it’s because he loved to do that work. And I suspect he put in longer hours than I choose to to do it.”
    Of course. What part of “chose to work” made you think otherwise?

    “You just admitted that Jobs didn’t stop; for the record, Steve Jobs wasn’t born fantastically wealthy, he worked until he got to the point of being fantastically wealthy.”
    Again, that isn’t a disqualifying statement. My original statement was that richer people “work LESS to make more”. Not once have made mention of people quitting altogether.

    “How do they funnel money in to rich people’s hands?”
    Cuts to social welfare programs that fund tax cuts and loop holes that allow rich people to get richer. The dissolution of government regulations that empowered employees and regulations that prevent consumers from being exploited by corporations.

    “What poor people are you talking about?”
    Are you seriously asking me to define poor? Ha!

    “So you agree that upward mobility choice is an option “all the time”?”
    No, Josh, that’s not even close to what I said.

  • $144948586

    “Are you seriously asking me to define poor? Ha!”
    Yes, I’d seriously like for you to tell me what poor people are not fantastically better off than they were 20 years ago.

    “Cuts to social welfare programs that fund tax cuts and loop holes that allow rich people to get richer.”
    Wait wait wait, how do welfare programs get funded?

    “No, Josh, that’s not even close to what I said.”
    You said people choose career based on upward mobility all the time. I just rearranged your statement.

  • Marques Bradley

    “Yes, I’d seriously like for you to tell me what poor people are not fantastically better off than they were 20 years ago.”
    None of them are better off, they’re still poor. In fact, 5 million more people live at or below the poverty line today than in 1998.

    “Wait wait wait, how do welfare programs get funded?”
    Tax benefits.

    “You said people choose career based on upward mobility all the time. I just rearranged your statement.”
    More like you twisted my words to support whatever argument you were trying to make. You’re smarter than that. You can defend your position without stooping to something so childish.

  • How would you know?

  • Well said. It became about gaining political power to push a certain agenda.

  • $144948586

    “None of them are better off, they’re still poor. In fact, 5 million more people live at or below the poverty line today than in 1998.”
    Who? Where is your data?

    “Tax benefits.”
    Who pays the taxes? Why should they pay more?

  • Patrick, your understanding of facts is one way only.
    The only interest democrats have in Stormy is if they could convince a Liberal Judge that the money was a campaign contribution violation.
    The only interest democrats have in the family issue is if they can make points with their base. Democrats support the slaughter unborn children everyday; they watch the homeless and under privileged suffer everyday and could not care less.
    Today SCOTUS taught three liberal circuit judges a lesson; one they won’t soon forget. Try to keep up!

  • $144948586

    Yeah…it “became” that.

  • Marques Bradley

    Yes, I do. First, they called him a bad Christian because he was a member of a radical pastor’s church. He left that church and then, they called him a Muslim. Conservative, Evangelical Christians lied about the “War on Christmas”, and the “War on Christianity” and tried to paint Obama, who is himself Christian, as anti-Christian.

  • Marques Bradley

    “Who? Where is your data?”
    HHS puts out these statistics on a yearly basis, Josh. Google them.

    “Who pays the taxes? Why should they pay more?”
    The middle class. They shouldn’t, rich people should.

  • DuranDuranDuranDuran

    Case in point.

  • Roger Morris

    Support for Trump is a symptom of an empire in decline, naked, afraid and feeling the loss of power and prestige. Enter, a tough talking “Make America Great Again” leader who promises to bring glory, prestige, power, prosperity and respect back to the Empire that is past it’s prime. Trump’s rise is a response to a deep seated fear – mainly death terror. Tribalism always thrives on fear and uncertainty.

  • jamieg

    What does the Bible say about abortion, specifically?

  • $144948586

    “HHS puts out these statistics on a yearly basis, Josh. Google them.”
    I tried, but I can’t find anything about “5 million more since 1998”
    Would you please paste a link?

    “The middle class. They shouldn’t, rich people should.”
    Um, are you kidding?

    But beyond that, why should rich people pay taxes?

  • Pat Lisenbee

    Do YOU know what the bible says about abortions? Let me tell you – in Leviticus, it tells HOW TO PERFORM AN ABORTION. Foul water and ash from the tabernacle floor. Mix, drink, have an abortion! God APPROVES! There is NO verse ANYWHERE that condemns abortion. In fact, god itself PERFORMED countless abortions and baby killings recorded in your book. You have NO foundation to stand on, sir. You ALSO have NO RIGHT to tell a woman how to live her life. As for Pride Fest – homosexuality was around LONG before your OT was written. A lot of animals are homosexual as well. People are not born perfect, but since your supposed god created the people and it says he knows you in the womb, well, then it knew the person was gay, bi, trans or just plain a nasty person like you. Tell me… since you’re so phobic, do you have dreams of being gay and it scares you? Or are you just a narcissist. I do know you are brainwashed by a book that has 100,000 MORE words than the oldest bible, the Sinai Bible! Man keeps adding what he wants to this book… I guess you’re a good follower cuz you are doing it too.

  • Pat Lisenbee

    about the 8 souls who boarded the ark: one of the sons “saw” Moses drunk and naked (disobeying!) Most trumpians believe he had intercourse with his father, that’s why he was condemned. A worthy soul, eh? Couldn’t have picked a better person? Did you god HAVE to murder everyone in the world? Nah. he does what he wants. commit genocide, break his own laws, allow rape of daughters, kill only women who have affairs and not men… shall I go on? BTW – I take it you don’t eat shellfish, don’t wear mixed cloth, don’t ever shave or cut your hair, have no tattoos, don’t eat pig or other cloven hoof aminals. You believe in obeying EVERY SINGLE verse in the book, right? You can’t be righteous unless you do.

  • Jesusisdemocrat

    The Bible says life doesn’t begin until birth

  • Jesusisdemocrat

    Exodus. sorry, not viable, not alive in the Bible.

  • Jesusisdemocrat

    Exodus strongly implies that a fetus is not a life. It is so strong that 2,500 years of Jewish teaching believed the same.

  • Jesusisdemocrat

    Good God! Obama did NOT separate children from parents as a POLICY ISSUE!!! Learn to read and understand.

  • Jesusisdemocrat

    Traditional does NOT equal Christian.

  • Jesusisdemocrat

    You need to read the Gospel

  • Jesusisdemocrat

    Concentrate you reading on the Gospel

  • Who called Obama a bad Christian? Someone on Facebook?
    No one in general knew he sat for 20 years in Reverend Wright’s church because he his it. When it was discovered he quit the church for show.
    Obama called himself a Christian. His actions and Muslim sympathies caused those questions.
    Evangelical Christians did nothing of the sort; the church leaders perhaps. So what?
    But conservatives are the large group and evangelical conservatives are a much smaller group. How do you know that conservatives questioned his faith?

  • Marques Bradley

    I live in the Bible belt. I know EXACTLY who Evangelicals are and what they thought about Obama.

  • Ok. Who are they?

  • Marques Bradley

    “Um, are you kidding?”
    No. Rich people can afford to pay higher taxes because they’ve seen steady increases in their wages, while wages at poor end have been stagnant.

    “But beyond that, why should rich people pay taxes?”
    Because our economy is top-heavy and needs to be balanced. More supply-side econ won’t help us out of the mess we’ve made.

  • David Cohen

    Numbers 5:11-31

    You’re welcome

  • ThomasBonsell

    It is clearly there.

    When that ancient Jewish rabble rouser was asked by his followers if they should pay taxes to the Roman-backed puppet government, he replied that they are to, “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and unto god what is god’s.”

    There. You are now enlightened.

  • David Cohen

    “Are you seriously going to say that God has no problem killing something he has created in the womb.”
    – Are you seriously going to tell us that there were no pregnant women in the cities which God ordered destroyed along with every living inhabitant? Consult the Book of Joshua for more details.

  • ThomasBonsell

    Spot on.

    Trump’s mantra is like Adolf Hitler’s promise to. “Recapture the glory of the old Germany” (paraphrased).

  • $144948586

    But it’s not that money their money? Do they not attain that money voluntarily?

  • David Cohen

    Oh come on. Every single day of president Obama’s terms brought a new complaint about him. If it wasn’t his clothing, it was using a teleprompter. There was no point too petty for conservatives to rip into him about.

    Do you SERIOUSLY think that conservatives would have missed the opportunity to link Obama with children in cages if they could?

  • David Cohen

    I guess I missed the verse in the Bible that states “give your money to the government so they can help feed the poor.”

    – You have apparently never read the prophets. Amos, Jeremiah and Isaiah in particular made it very clear to the government leaders of their days that the poor and the outcast were to be taken care of.

  • PedasiPaul

    Will any evangelical Trump supporters admit they applied a different standard about adultery to President Clinton than they apply to President Trump?

  • BJR1961

    That would involve seeing the truth, and admitting they were wrong. PRIDE is another of their sins…

  • BJR1961

    Jonathan, you worship Trump over God. You just proved it.

  • PedasiPaul

    == I guessed I missed the verse…==
    Actually several verses: Deut. 14: 28-29 states, ͞Every third year you shall bring out the full tithe of your
    produce for that year, and store it within your towns; the Levites, because they have no allotment or inheritance with you, as well as the resident aliens, the orphans, and the widows in your towns, may come and eat their fill.”

    Similar rules are found in Deut. 24:21, Deut. 26:12 and Leviticus 19:9, 23:22. So those with property were required to support those without. So do you support Biblical values when it comes to our obligation to the poir?

  • BJR1961

    That it is OK — especially if the husband doubts that the child is his.

  • BJR1961

    Trumpsters worship Trump, and Trump worships money. God ain’t nowhere to be found — the Fundamentalists SAY he is, but don’t believe a Fundie. They can do anything and justify it… they’re a little bit crazy to begin with.

  • PedasiPaul

    If President Obama had proposed abolishing due process, the way President Trump has proposed doing at the border, would conservative evangelicals have been either silent or supportive?

    The reason I ask is because I understand conservatism to embrace limited government under the rule of law. Due process is a fundamental part of limiting the power of government and protecting individual rights.

    “The history of liberty has largely been the history of observance of procedural
    safeguards.” — Justice Felix Frankfurter

    So if conservatives still believe in limited government, why do they support Trump when he wants to curb due process and when he issues far more executive orders than Obama?

  • Javier Gonzalez

    Here’s my question? Have you sat down to talk directly with anyone who voted for Trump? Do you know them by name? Do you know their story? You direct your arguments to “conservatives” assuming they all believe in the way you have generalized them to be boxing them all into your perceived trunk of “Trumpians.”

    Christ was unique because he took the time to listen to people’s story. He saw them. Not their labels, what faction of Judaism they belonged to, He just saw them.

    We should all try that instead of turning around and self-righteously judging and generalizing a whole group of people that you don’t even know. You may know a few, but does that now constitute an expert knowledge of all conservatives? It’s quite laughable actually.

    I suppose my response is thank God He is the judge of all. I don’t have to answer to you or you to me, nor do the so-called “Trumpians” as you have arbitrarily labeled them, but we both along with those Christ died for, will ONLY have to answer to Him. Again, thank God for that.

  • David Cohen

    – Actually there are other differences. I submit this quote from the article you cited (and apparently did not bother to read):

    “Though the photos are nearly identical to those from 2014, there is one key difference between them: the 2014 photos showed only children who arrived at the border unaccompanied. The 2018 photos also show families that have been separated from one another.

    That difference is significant — while unaccompanied children in 2014 knew what to expect when they arrived at the border and were taken to the holding facilities, the children who have been separated from their parents are often much younger, and had not expected to be taken away from their families.”

  • First please define Evangelicals for me. Who are they and how many are there? There are about two billion Christians give or take. Are there 1,000,000 Evangelicals?

    In general, people on the right accepted Obama for many reasons chief among them was a feeling he would heal the racial divide and they voted for him! When it became apparent that was not his intention and he started attacking the police from Cambridge to St. Louis, it hurt his popularity among conservatives. When it became apparent that he could not govern this country they abandoned him.

    You are thinking about his few loud and vocal critics because that is what we are shown on TV. All presidents get criticized.

  • Due Process at the border is an oxymoron. Many of Trump’s executive orders overturn Obama’s orders.

  • Why would they. Trump was a NY playboy. Clinton was a serial rapist.

  • Nonsense. Trump’s victory was totally unexpected by most especially democrats. He was elected mainly on his economic and immigration promises. He will be judged on the same promises. He has already produced an economic miracle. immigration is next.

  • Knock off the Hitler nonsense. You are inciting violence and simply repeating Liberal hysteria.

  • Well said. You will be very popular on this site.

  • Sorry. It says no such thing. Cite the verse please?

  • Leviticus does not tell us how to perform an abortion.
    God tells us in Psalms that he knew us in the womb. You try telling God why it’s ok to destroy His creations. Also, children are gifts from God not an annoyance to be purged.

  • Not a recipe for abortion. If so why doesn’t Planned Parenthood use it instead of tearing off the head with forceps? Your moral compass need a rest!

  • Many people on this site believe abortion is a right. It is a hallmark of the Liberal.

  • God created us and he can destroy us; and He has. He destroyed the whole world in the first age of man except for eight people. We are told not to kill. It is in force whether people obey it or not.

  • ◄ Jeremiah 1:5 ►

    New International Version
    “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.

  • Jeremiah 1:5 says differently.

  • Nonsense again. Respect our flag. This President takes our safety seriously and he has stopped North Korea; something no other President has even dreamed of.

  • The Left has become deranged. Their anger has blinded them. Now they believe they have the right to stop our President and anyone who supports him. Are there no adults left on the Left?

  • Yes he did.

  • If you would check out the cite Jonathan gave you this is what you would see, “Obama officials rushed to explain photos from 2014 that went viral showing locked-up immigrant children — and Trump’s facilities look the same”

  • David Cohen

    You obviously did not read the passage. And you missed the point: whether it is abortificants (as Numbers suggests) or forceps, there is nothing in the Bible to discourage abortion. By assuming there is, you are reading things into the Bible which are not there.

    Why are you such a heretic?

  • David Cohen

    Ah yes, the argument that if the deity approves of slaughtering people it can’t be wrong. That same argument has been used to justify torture, slavery and every other misery humans can inflict on each other.

    Is it any wonder why people are abandoning your religion in droves?

  • You have not read the bible carefully and this is evident by your reply. Why not explain Jeremiah 1:5 to us if you can?

  • David Cohen

    So, you rely entirely on a citation directed at one, specific individual.

    (slow clap)

  • David Cohen

    As I noted elsewhere, that is one verse aimed at one specific individual. Your argument is like saying that since David was chosen to be king of Israel, that means everyone is the king of Israel.

  • Marques Bradley

    Those questions are irrelevant. Regardless of who owns what or how it was earned, the economy will still be top heavy. Why are you protecting the people who are doing the most harm to the economy?

  • Try to use your reasoning skills. The question is whether or not a fetus is a life. If it is then taking its life is murder even by our civil standards. God says it is a life while Jesusisdemocrat (and many others) say it is not. How do you know if the fetus is not a life? You must now the answer because you are betting your salvation on the answer. So elucidate please.

  • Marques Bradley

    “First please define Evangelicals for me. Who are they and how many are there? There are about two billion Christians give or take. Are there 1,000,000 Evangelicals?”
    No, this is a strawman.

    “In general, people on the right accepted Obama..”
    Hahahaha! That’s completely revisionist and holds not a single iota of truth. The Gates controversy didn’t happen until July of 2009, by then the Tea Party was already 5 months old and leadership on the right had already conspired against him.

    “You are thinking about his few loud and vocal critics..”

  • Patrick

    Well I damn sure didn’t get that information from you.

  • “I understand Corey’s message to be addressing the, “Obama is the antichrist and Trump is the savior” mentality.”

    Yes, I understand this to be the message as well. As an Anabaptist as well, I’m sympathetic. I agree with most of the criticisms.

    My problem is the presentation of this message. Using fallacious and incorrect arguments only hurts your case and makes you look dishonest, especially when you turn it into political speech. This post continues the recent trend of Dr. Corey posting some incredibly one-sided political commentary in a hypocritical manner. This does not show good faith.

    If you truly want to convince someone that they are not showing Christ-like love, then the last thing you want to do is accuse them of not being real Christians, mocking them (“Trumpianity”), and being snarky. I don’t doubt that some people who hold the views that Dr. Corey is criticizing deserve that snark, but this isn’t targeted at any specific individuals. Snark makes for amusing reading, but it’s not exactly effective at persuasion.

  • This is both a strawman fallacy and a black-and-white fallacy.

    “Christianity is based on self-sacrifice”

    Christianity is based on Jesus. It was his, and only his, sacrifice and resurrection. Salvation comes from a complete trust in Jesus, making him your master. Our self-sacrifice is obedience, one of many works were are instructed to do, but it is not the essence of Christianity.

    If this argument is sound, then no Christian can participate in any political movement at all: Jesus himself rejected political involvement. The government does what it wants on threat of violence. It can only compel. Forcing others to “sacrifice” is not self-sacrifice. It is the antithesis of self-sacrifice. The only way to self-sacrifice is to do it personally. Political affiliation is irrelevant and selectively pointing it out is hypocritical.

  • For who you or me?
    Then hew did he get elected? The votes tell different story.

  • Your ability to read and understand is clouded. Your reasoning skills are not sharp. You have not offered anything to support your position that God condones abortion. Any Jewish Rabbi online can explain Numbers 5:11 to you. Why not read it before you cite it. it does not have anything to do with abortion.

    Now you champion another’s boast that life only begins at birth but again without support.

  • David Cohen

    “Try to use your reasoning skills.”
    – You sure are patronizing for someone who is obviously making up his answers as he goes

    “The question is whether or not a fetus
    is a life.”
    – That question is never, explicitly, addressed n the the Bible. One can only infer an answer. One cannot help but notice that your inferences follow those of The Party to a tee. Makes one wonders where the real authority in your life is.

    “If it is then taking its life is murder even by our civil
    Except that murder IS addressed explicitly in the Bible

    “God says it is a life while Jesusisdemocrat (and many others)
    say it is not.”
    – Again, that is The Party’s, er uhm I mean your inference.

    “How do you know if the fetus is not a life?”
    – Your deity has authorized the slaughter of innumerable fetuses according to the Bible. If your deity does not care, why should I?

    “You must now
    the answer because you are betting your salvation on the answer. So
    elucidate please.”
    – So abortion is the only issue that matters for your deity?

  • David Cohen

    Cutting through your patronizing side notes, we find the only response you have to offer is that people who agree with you on this issue agree with you on this issue.

    If you think that is a valid argument then it is clearly your reasoning that is clouded.

  • David Cohen

    First of all, Clinton was not convicted of sexual assault in any form. Your Bible refers to what you have just done as baring false witness. But, apparently, your deity ignores the sins of political conservatives.

    Second, you seem to be suggesting that some sins are not as bad as other sins. It used to be that no evangelical would ever say anything like that. They used to say that all sin was equal because it all made one worthy of death. But, apparently conservative theology changes as needed for the sake of political power.

  • David Cohen

    “Nonsense again. Respect our flag.”
    – Didn’t your deity say that his kingdom was not of this world?

    “This President takes our safety
    seriously and he has stopped North Korea; something no other President
    has even dreamed of.”
    – And yet, no schedule for the denuclearization of North Korea has been revealed, let alone been enacted. It is clearly a bit premature to start praising this as a success for your man.

  • There isn’t even any need to make a biblical argument that abortion is wrong. The science is completely unambiguous: a fetus is a human life. Those who lived in centuries past could, perhaps, be excused for not having proof one way or another. But that has long ceased to be a legitimate defense.

    While Exodus 21:22-23 makes a distinction between mother and fetus, it treats the loss of the fetus as a tort. This does not in any way invalidate the general principle of Genesis 9:6, the prohibition against the shedding of blood. The loss of a fetus is, without question, a negative event. Moreover, individuals did not have unlimited rights to their own bodies. They were forbidden to commit suicide, intentionally injure themselves, or even to get a tattoo. At most, abortion to save the life of the mother would be permitted.

    One of the key biblical commands is to be fruitful and multiply. Thus abortion and contraception are both forbidden in the normative cases. This view is held by many (e.g. Orthodox Judaism, Catholicism). Christians don’t need to agree on whether or not abortion is murder, but they do need to agree that, at minimum, it is wrong and should be avoided in all but the most exceptional cases.

  • $144948586

    “Those questions are irrelevant. Regardless of who owns what or how it was earned”
    What do you call it when something is taken from you without asking?

  • Marques Bradley

    A false equivalence!

    Taxation is NOT theft. It’s the price we as citizen pay for the privilege of doing business in this great nation.

  • $144948586

    “It’s the price we as citizen pay for the privilege of doing business in this great nation”
    Yet you support changing the price paid depending on the individual and even upping it when you’ve determined they can handle it. How’s that not a shakedown?

    Would the rules change if a mob determined you must pay to play in their neighborhood? Is that theft or a tax?

  • Are you an attorney? Law professor? Judge? Political Scientist?

  • the traditional way of life

    What’s that, exactly?

  • we need to read the constitution through the lens of the Bible

    How would that work?

  • Yet you support changing the price paid depending on the individual and even upping it when you’ve determined they can handle it. How’s that not a shakedown?

    Because they disproportionately benefit from the services taxes provide.

    If taxes build a school, a student gets an education, while a captain of industry gets an educated workforce he can easily train.
    If taxes build a road, a driver can get from A to B, while a captain of industry gets to move his products to points of distribution.
    If taxes build an Internet, a disqus commenter can blather, while a captain of industry can pitch his product to pretty much every potential customer in the world.

    It’s not hard to understand, when you start thinking. Fortune is built from three things: Hard work, luck, and everyone else’s help. The owner of the means of producing is an important role in the production and distribution of goods, but no more so than the worker that makes the good, or the customer that buys it, or the state that provides necessary infrastructure to make the transaction possible. But the owner makes more in remuneration for their role often by several orders of magnitude, because they are able to extract truly massive amounts of economic rent from the fact that infrastructure is a widely socialized expense.

    So they should pay more.

    That’s not a shakedown. That’s paying for what you get, and still getting a great deal.

  • Matthew

    From the 10 things that Benjamin listed, what do you disagree with specifically?

  • Aubreythecat

    Hitler wasn’t Hitler to start with. Trump’s just testing the waters – demonise whole groups of people (racial, religious, economic), and see how persecuting them plays; then carry on.

    Trump’s “Economic Miracle” – giving billions to the already wealthy and taking it from the poor? I suppose it’s a miracle that he has any but the wealthy supporting it.

  • James R McKenna

    here’s back at ya Ben the progressive “Christian”….you sound like a scowling, angry, embittered trogg spewing contemptuous hatred for America, men, God, guns…. a hostile, hate-filled face, tainted by envy, corruption, mendacity, with full-blown anti-American sentiments…you have thrown open the doors to your diseased inner sanctum, baring your storehouse of wilted values and stunted counterfeit virtues. Your a degenerate, mouth-breathing troglodyte who has the intellectual agility of a sea slug with Down’s syndrome….a tragic figure spewing flimflam, humbuggery and polly-foggery as a steady diatribe.…a dried-up simpleton worthy of pity and prayer. In your hallucinatory world you will probably find sympathetic souls, those who will only prolong your delusions. But alas, in the end your just a person of the creative self…simple, double minded, void of any intellectual curiosity, unstable in all you do.

  • David, I feel no empathy for you.
    Why do you want to be associated with the sin of abortion in any way?
    You have many issues as you demonstrate by your answers. Let jesusisdemocrat answer for her sins.

    One final comment for you:
    My deity is your deity. He abhors abortion. Consider actually studying the bible for yourself.

  • american

    Yes, there are some sensible people over there, but their voices are being drowned out by the anger mill.

  • american

    The President is elected to serve us, not the other way around. We don’t serve President Trump, we support him in the good things he is doing. And on the issues on which we disagree, we don’t support his actions. I supported President Obama in some of his decisions, like when he ordered the mission to kill Osama bin Laden. But I didn’t *serve* him and I don’t *serve* Trump.

  • american

    There were credible accusations by Juanita Broaddrick, that much is true.

  • David Cohen

    “David, I feel no empathy for you.”
    – So Jesus’ injunction to love your enemies is also dispensed with in your religion.

    “Why do you want to be associated with the sin of abortion in any way?”
    – Why do you call it a sin despite the lack of scriptural support for that position?

    “You have many issues as you demonstrate by your answers.”
    – Maybe you should worry about the plank in your eye before concerning yourself with the mote in other’s.

    “Let jesusisdemocrat answer for her sins.”
    – Isn’t that between jesusisdemocrat and your deity? Why are you inserting yourself in that arrangement?

    “One final comment for you:
    My deity is your deity. He abhors abortion.”
    – So you have inferred, repeatedly, despite scriptural evidence to the contrary

    “Consider actually studying the bible for yourself.”
    – I might say the same thing about you. The Bible has a lot to say about a haughty spirit like yours.

  • The women he has raped are all over the television telling their stories. In the Me Too movement the women must be believed not the man. Conviction? You are out of your mind if you believe what you wrote about Bill.
    You do not have the background to discuss sin in the bible let alone a concept of “degrees of sin.” All sin is judged the same

  • Be glad a nuke isn’t heading to your city.

  • american

    I don’t know if any Christians claim all sin is equal, but Christ didn’t teach that at all. For example, He stated in John 19:11, “The one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

    With regard to Trump, he has engaged in terrible sexual behavior, but that does not disqualify him from serving as the President.

  • David Cohen

    “The women he has raped are all over the television telling their
    stories. In the Me Too movement the women must be believed not the man. ”
    – One could say the exact same thing about Trump

    “Conviction? You are out of your mind if you believe what you wrote about
    – What was he convicted of? If you can’t answer, you are bearing false witness.

    “You do not have the background to discuss sin in the bible let alone a concept of “degrees of sin.” All sin is judged the same”
    – I accept your surrender.

  • american


  • David Cohen

    I had no fear of such an thing until your man took office.

  • The President in our country is the head of the Executive Branch. There are three branches of government in our system. This provides the checks and balances that have prevented the takeover of this country since its founding.
    You can try to make an argument about social engineering but you cannot deny the economic numbers. This is one of two major reasons Trump was elected. His support is broad and growing.

  • I am a Christian and a conservative in that order. By education I am an engineer, a lawyer and a bible student.

  • One hallmark of a Liberal is their inability to shut up and accept that they have lost. You are another poster child for that trait.

  • David Cohen

    The idea of some sins being worse than others was dismissed by American Protestants as a papist corruption, at least when I was young. But, again, it seems that theology can change when it is politically expedient.

    And it is true that Trump’s perversion does not disqualify him from serving as president. That was never the issue. The issue is how Evangelicals can support him in spite of his unrepentant perversion. In the Gospels, Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world if he would worship him. It seems that American evangelicals have jumped at the offer which Jesus refused.

  • It will stop after the mid-terms. Imagine running on open borders and raising taxes as a platform.

  • american

    Ok, so these “American Protestants” obviously dismissed the words of Jesus in the Bible. Or they think Jesus was a papist.

  • David Cohen

    There’s that haughty spirit of yours coming into play again. You have nothing to support your position except crude dismissal. And when this is pointed out, you act like it is some one else’s problem.

  • David Cohen

    They relied on Romans 6:32 for their position. But, as you have shown us, there seems to be little point in citing biblical passages. For every biblical passage there is an equal and opposite biblical passage.

    Makes one wonder why anyone should bother.

  • otrotierra

    Refugee children separated from their family and indefinitely imprisoned are not comforted by your support for Trump. I’ll stick with Jesus, no matter how much that distrubs you.

  • David Cohen

    Edit: Romans 6:23

  • otrotierra

    The hate you seek is nowhere in Dr. Corey’s thoughtful commentary. You’ll have to direct your hate-seeking skills elsewhere.

  • otrotierra

    U.S. White Evangelicals supporting and defending Trump will not be raptured, but will live the remainder of their days trying and failing to justify their unjustifiable actions.

  • csanders

    North Korea has promised to denuclearize at least 10 times since 1985. Haven’t seen it happen yet.

  • Thanks for the reply. I’m not familiar with Dr. Corey but see your point in what I perceive to be an unbalanced and inaccurate criticism as well. And though the ‘Trumpianity’ is edgy, it is something I’ve been extremely frustrated with as well and have addressed it at times with a similar snarkiness. As for the 10 signs, we who do see this often times blind support for Trump could compile a more accurate analysis including the ignorance so many have for Trump’s historical associations with the global elite, gambling industry, Hollywood and entertainment industry, just for starters. What a miraculous conversion to Christianity Trump had shortly before his entry into politics. I’m sure it was as genuine as Constantine the Great’s was as political Rome realized “the gates of hell were not going to prevail.”
    As the more recent Vladimir Lenin stated, “The best way to control the opposition is to lead it ourselves.”

  • Tell me this, Jesusisdemocrate, “What must a man do to be saved?”
    How well do you know the Gospel?

  • It’s a generality, just as breaking tradition is. Use your imagination. Have you ever heard of slavery; women not being allowed to vote being examples of tradition that needed to be broke. Or any number of things in the 60’s revolution of ‘sex, drugs, rock and roll’ that maybe didn’t have such a positive effect on society.

  • I didn’t say it did. What I said was the accurate definition of ‘conservative’ is more accurately understood as the opposite of ‘liberal.’ You might try ‘googling’ “definition of ‘conservative’ vs. ‘liberal’ viewpoints”

  • Jesusisdemocrat, can you tell me how many people who were alive in Egypt at the exodus made it to the promised land; their names and the reason why they made it and all the others died in the wilderness?

  • 81grad

    One hallmark of a Conservative is their self-righteousness and their inability to squelch it. You are the best poster child for that trait. “You might want to take a more self-critical look and make sure you’re following Christianity, and not Trumpianity.”

  • Pat, that would be Noah who was seen drunk and naked by his son, Ham.
    But aside from the sarcastic education, what a ridiculous bunch of nonsense you’ve said. But I can connect the dots. The truth is that fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Therefore, the lack of the fear of God, which you obviously have, is the beginning of foolishness. Don’t let me stand in your way.

  • It is possible that North Korea is not sincere.
    But I would not bet against Trump; he has convinced China to help him.
    Also, Kim is not sure that Trump won’t attack him and he wants to stay in power.
    The Left is left with carping about Trump’s conduct during an historic meeting – pitiful whining.

  • 81grad

    he has stopped North Korea from doing what exactly?

  • I know what Christianity is. What exactly is “Trumpianity” please?

  • As of now:
    1.From testing and launching missiles in a provocative way.
    2.From threatening the USA and his neighbors.
    They are working out the details as we speak. If it does not proceed as agreed to there will be consequences for Kim. Kim knows this and he has decided to leverage his position to stay in power.
    By the way, another SCOTUS disaster for Liberals and Democrats this morning on top of a primary debacle in NY.

  • Matthew

    Chemical, mechanical, electrical, civil, industrial?

  • pasapdub@gmail.com


  • pasapdub@gmail.com

    (Right back to yourself, James)

  • It’s perplexing that you claim to be a lawyer when you make comments on the law that are provably untrue. The due process clauses of the fifth and fourteenth amendment, as the courts have repeatedly held, apply to persons, not only citizens.This has extended to immigration proceedings at the border and otherwise, as immigrants are persons regardless of their legal status. [Link, PDF] Which is surprising to absolutely nobody who is aware of the bedrock position that due process plays in guaranteeing a rule of law.

    Lying about the law as a lawyer is a pretty big professional no-no, and it is implausible that a lawyer at the bar would ever make such a basic error. So, “lawyer by education”, what do you mean by that? Vanity degree? Non-accredited institution? One pre-law night class at a local community college?

  • 81grad

    and there it is.. didn’t even read the article. womp womp. lol.

  • Patrick

    Respect the rights the flag represents. The flag itself is but a symbol. Go ahead and salute it, stand for it, whatever, but if you don’t respect the rights it represents, you’re just blowing hot air.
    BTW, Obama spoke of meeting with Kim and was absolutely torched by the right wing for saying so. trump mentions it and is hailed as a hero. Can you spell or say h-y-p-o-c-r-i-s-y? And trump hasn’t stopped anything. NK has reneged on previous agreements umpteen times. Taking bets that they will do so again.

  • Notional?

  • Scott

    Your post is on point. The interesting thing is how these positions can be turned around. Let’s take #1. I know so many people who back in the 90’s were defending Clinton and saying we weren’t electing a pastor but now have an issue with Trump. If we all were not so ideological (ideology is our new religion) we’d all point out how both Clinton and Trump were wrong.

  • Riddled with cliches and incoherent images. Poor punctuation, capitalization, and syntax. Inconsistent tone.


  • Zack

    Hard to believe an actual articale was written about this subject…Hmm

  • If this were true, then why do different workers get paid different wages?

    Because there is a difference in the ability to extract economic rents depending on position. It is most obvious and stark when comparing the position of owner to anyone else, but the differential rents also extend all the way down the hierarchy. A large hotel will stop functioning pretty much altogether if the sales manager or front office manager or general manager positions are unfilled, but it will also stop functioning entirely if the front desk associate, houseman, or housekeeping positions are unfilled. Thus, they are all equally necessary to the business functioning and generating income. But, the ability to leverage that into rent is restricted by how easy it would be for a business to replace any given individual with the abilities and skills requisite for a given job. If it is comparatively easier to replace any given housekeeper than it is to replace any given manager, their ability (absent collective bargaining) to negotiate for remunerated is lesser.

  • An articale?

  • Aubreythecat

    The three branches are all Republican; the only checks and balances are Republican politicians, who so far have pretty much gone along with everything Trump says: the takeover is happening, now, while conservatives keep pretending everything is normal.

    Economic miracle – take money from the poor and give to the wealthy – is that what you mean? Just what Jesus would have done. The US economy is buggered, but with the trade wars he’s starting the rest of the world will soon be in the same place.

    He breaks treaties on a whim. He is openly racist, openly misogynistic; childishly hostile, casually insulting the the leaders of other countries, allied countries. He is vindictive, cruel, petty, vicious, mendacious; he is dangerous, and you Republicans look the other way or make excuses for him. How can you do it?

  • You who accuse me of lying when we disagree are disingenuous to say the least.
    Perhaps you should go to the border as an advocate and lecture the Border Patrol on the rights of the illegal immigrants who are flooding our border. All I said was, “Due Process at the border is an oxymoron.”
    Others have said:
    “And Fordham law professor Jennifer Gordon said that some undocumented immigrants get almost no due process in removal proceedings.
    “In 1996, Congress created expedited removal for undocumented immigrants without a hearing. Initially it only applied at the U.S. border. Then it was expanded to within 100 miles of a border for undocumented immigrants who had been in the country less than 14 days.”
    “President Donald Trump announced in January that his administration will apply the program anywhere in the United States to undocumented immigrants present less than two years.”

    i proudly received my JD from a certificate inside a box of Cheerios. From your comment I see you have no discernible legal training at all.

  • I see no article posted by 81grad. Please re-post it and I will comment.

  • By the way, Ben has not defined the term in his blog either. It is just a typical series of personal opinions stitched together to incite Progressives.

  • Zack

    Ok…obviously a typo….article….is that better? Thank you my friend.

  • Trump has humbled the mighty NFL and its Players for dis-respecting or Flag. You have lost perspective due to your hatred and disdain for the man in office.
    Obama was a feckless fool on foreign policy: North Korea, Syria, Iran, Poland and ISIS, etc.

  • Marques Bradley

    “Yet you support changing the price paid depending on the individual and even upping it when you’ve determined they can handle it. How’s that not a shakedown?”
    It’s called a progressive tax and not only is it fair, it’s legal.

    “Would the rules change if a mob determined you must pay to play in their neighborhood? Is that theft or a tax?”
    Another false equivalence. The mob and the government are not similar in any stretch of the imagination.

  • When Bob Shiloh says “Your reasoning skills are not sharp” it is not meant to be patronizing. You failed to even attempt to apply the principle of charity or to think through the consequences of your claims. For example:

    1) Who thinks that dust from the floor is an abortifacient? It’s a ceremonial placebo. This is what keeps it from being a sham (i.e. if she floats, she’s guilty. If she drowns, she’s innocent).

    2) Neither history nor accepted doctrine supports the abortifacient claim. It was a trial of ordeal. This trial applies to any suspected adulterous wife, whether or not she is pregnant. The curse is a universal punishment of the guilty.

    3) If a woman was found guilty of adultery and her partner was known, both would be put to death. The trial protected her and was a chance to prove her innocence against false claims. Contrast this to a patriarchal society where a woman could be condemned on the word of her husband without any trial at all.

    4) The trial could force a confession. These were not primitive idiots. If a baby was born and looked like another man in the village (or his kids), that could only be hidden for so long before both were put to death. A woman who knew she was guilty would also know that she was probably going to get caught.

    5) If she was guilty and didn’t confess, God would decide her guilt. If she was innocent there would be no abortion. But you don’t believe that God is real and that the woman could be selectively cursed according to her actual guilt. Your naturalistic biases do not prove that the Bible was advocating abortion. On the contrary, if God does not exist, this trial wouldn’t result in an abortion.

    6) Adultery is one of the worst crimes imaginable, worse even than abortion. There was a zero-tolerance policy against adultery and its punishment had to be carried out even if the woman was pregnant. It does not logically follow from this that voluntary abortion, or even any human-induced abortion at all, is acceptable.

  • The democrat talking points you list are vacant and devoid of substance. They will not help the democrats in the mid-terms either. Your analysis is flawed. Republicans are not all in support of the President. The never Trumpers number in the hundreds. Conservatives are thrilled that Trump is turning the country around and so quickly; from the economy to foreign policy to freedom of religion, et. al.
    Your list of negative attributes shows your hatred of the man and blinds you to his accomplishments – but we don’t care.

  • Well, at least better spelled.

  • Well, I accused you of exaggerating your credentials. It is reasonable to call a mistruth an intentional one when no other plausible explanation remains, such as when you claim a professional credential and then subsequently act in a way contrary to the strictures of that credential in a manner that suggests you do not hold the requisite training and knowledge to have the credential in the first place.

    Fordham law professor Jennifer Gordon said that some undocumented immigrants get almost no due process in removal proceedings.

    The word in bold above is a biggie. And expedited removal, while being a mockery of due process (which is what she was actually pointing out) is still predicated on the bedrock legal notion that judicial process is due anyone coming under the punitive power of the US government.

  • american

    A phantom in the mind of the Trump-deranged Christian left.

    Like I said before, we don’t *serve* the President. We are obliged to serve *God*. The President is obliged to serve *us*.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    Of the “10 signs” of “Trumpianity” written above, conservative-leaning commentators may wish to note that none of them include “voting for Donald Trump”.
    #10 would not include a Trump voter who didn’t try to make the President above criticism from his opponents because the President is Donald Trump.
    #9 would not include a Trump voter who disagreed that Trump’s immigration policy was in fact against the Bible, but didn’t suddenly decide that obeying the law was more important than obeying the Bible because the law was now being determined by Donald Trump.
    #8 would not include a Trump voter who didn’t think nationalism was a tenet of the Christian religion
    #7 would not include a Trump voter who believed Trump when he said in his campaign he was against military intervention, was disheartened not cheering when he said ” knock the crap ” out of a protestor and considered military intervention an unfortunate last resort, not an occasion for rejoicing.
    #6 would not include a Trump voter who held their nose and voted for him because the alternative was somehow worse
    #5 would not include a Trump voter who doesn’t agree with the protest but doesn’t think a flag is a religious icon and recognises a right to protest.
    #4 would not include a Trump voter who doesn’t think secular laws should mandate religious positions and worries that state welfare provisions never properly work
    #3 would not include a Trump voter who sympathises with refugees and would like to help but worries about border security
    #2 would not include a Trump voter who thinks Trump was actually picked by voters as no more than the better choice of the options available
    #1 would not include a Trump voter who would very much have preferred a candidate with a decent character, but thought the other worse and made the best if a bad job.
    I don’t think Ben is saying simply voting Republican, or Trump, is the same as “Trumpianity” but the way a lot of particularly evangelical Christians literally idolise Trump goes way, way further than just plumping for him as the best bet for a political office.
    NB – For the avoidance of doubt, I am not American, and like most of the rest of the world think he is truly horrible and the American people were stark staring bonkers to pick him as president (a view Ben no doubt shares) but I don’t think (and I don’t think Ben does) that everybody involved in this hideous mistake has necessarily abandoned their Christianity as well.

  • Matthew


  • Are you conceding the point or just moving the goalpost?

  • Mark1115

    No, it is neither. You either don’t understand what either fallacy is, or you are spewing false accusations because you are threatened by the truth.

    “Christianity is based on Jesus. It was his, and only his, sacrifice and resurrection.”

    Jesus modeled self-sacrifice and taught self-sacrifice.

    “Salvation comes from a complete trust in Jesus, making him(sic) your master.
    Our self-sacrifice is obedience, one of many works were are instructed
    to do, but it is not the essence of Christianity.”

    No, salvation comes by grace, through faith. But hey, there has never been a conservative who trusts Jesus, or makes Him their master. Self-sacrifice is absolutely the essence of Christianity. But only a conservative, having rejected Christ, would argue otherwise.

    “If this argument is sound, then no Christian can participate in any political movement at all:”

    Now that is a straw man: “A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy
    based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent’s argument,
    while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that
    opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be “attacking a straw man.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

    “The government does what it wants on threat of violence. It can only
    compel. Forcing others to “sacrifice” is not self-sacrifice.”

    There’s another straw man fallacy. Good job, conservative.

    But instead of making excuses for the evil you endorse, you should actually embrace Jesus.

  • Mark1115

    “Self-serving comments used to make you feel better about your rebellion.”

    Nice confession. I hope it was a confession, because if you meant it about me – then it was damning slander on your part.

    “So did the angels who fell tell themselves the same thing. They were wrong and so are you.”

    Oh, so you meant it as slander. As a slanderer, Bob, you have barred yourself from the Kingdom of Heaven.

    You’ve also made it explicitly clear that you not only cannot refute my position, you cannot help but prove it correct with your own behavior.

    After all, slanderer, you just violated Christ’s commands, on purpose, to feed your ego, proving that you reject Christ.

  • Mark1115

    “Foolish and deluded people”

    Matthew 5:22

    But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be
    subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

    That’s Jesus speaking by the way. So you’ve demonstrated, again, that conservatives explicitly and deliberately reject Christ.

  • Mark1115

    ” I think your definitions of ‘conservative’ are poor at best.”

    Yet you offer nothing to back up your thoughts other than your ego, your pride. Now Christian theology traditionally teaches that pride, ego, conceit – the selfish need to appear superior to others – is the root of all sin.

    Thanks, you’ve provided confirmational evidence for my position.

    Conservativism and Christianity are mutually exclusive.

    “liberal is to expand the ways of life not holding to tradition.”
    Isaiah 43:19

    See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it? I am making a way in the wilderness and streams in the wasteland.

    Isaiah 42:9

    See, the former things have taken place, and new things I declare; before they spring into being I announce them to you.
    Isaiah 48:6

    You have heard these things; look at them all. Will you not admit them? “From now on I will tell you of new things, of hidden things unknown to you.

    Isaiah 65:17

    [ New Heavens and a New Earth ] “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

    Acts 3:21 21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

    Rev 21: 5
    5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

  • Mark1115

    That is a terrible disgrace, isn’t it?

  • Mark1115

    Nice slander. It really demonstrates how conservatives deliberately reject Christ and Christ’s commands, in order to feed their egos.

  • I agree

  • Mark1115

    “self-righteously judging”

    Which of course is the sole purpose of your post. Nice hypocrisy.

  • Mark1115

    “I am a Christian and a conservative in that order. By education I am an engineer, a lawyer and a bible student.”

    Well, your posts prove that you are not a Christian, and no one can be a conservative and a Christian at the same time. Your posts also do not demonstrate the level of education necessary to be either an engineer, or a lawyer. Anyone with either educational background would know that it is pointless to make such claims, for a variety of reasons, the least of them being – you cannot prove those claims on the internet, particularly with what is technically an anonymous id.

    And your posts demonstrate either an extreme ignorance about the Bible, or deliberate disobedience against the rules and principles it teaches.

  • Mark1115


  • Mark1115

    While you are simply a slanderer.

    A Bible scholar, Bob, would know better than to bear false witness, or call people fool.

  • Mark1115

    “I know what Christianity is.”

    Your posts indicate the contrary. Prove your claim.

    Of course, if you do accurately describe Christianity, then you will have proven that you deliberately reject Christ – based on your posts.

  • Mark1115

    “A phantom in the mind of the Trump-deranged Christian left.”

    A statement like that serves on your ego, not God, and because the left, more than the right, actually attempts to live Christ’s commands, your post is a rejection of Christ and God.

  • Mark1115

    Nice slander.

  • Mark1115

    “All sin is judged the same”

    That’s not what Jesus taught.

    Luke 12:10 New International Version (NIV) 10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

    So we know now that you are not a Bible scholar. And since you were so untrustworthy about the Bible, your claims about Bill Clinton are equally worthless.

  • otrotierra

    Most Christians throughout history did not believe rapture fan-fiction, as it’s a fairly recent Western invention. Rapture myths are most popular among First-World people of privilege who consume “end-times” books and other media.

  • Matthew Funke

    Have you sat down to talk directly with anyone who voted for Trump?

    Certainly. Some of us are even closely related to some of them. Some of us are even closely related to people who not only voted for Trump (which the article does not address), but who continue to support him.

    Christ was unique because he took the time to listen to people’s story.

    Nothing in Corey’s essay above indicates that he hasn’t heard their story. He’s making a statement about their values as expressed by their actions. When Jesus saw someone whose values as expressed by their actions were out of whack, He called them out on it — sometimes with blistering invective (see Matthew 23, directed at religious leaders who ought to have known better than to act the way they were acting, even as they prioritized practicing the tenets of their faith that had been delivered to them by God Himself).

    We should all try that instead of turning around and self-righteously judging and generalizing a whole group of people that you don’t even know.

    … says the person who doesn’t even know whether or not Corey knows people who support Trump, making vast generalizations and judgments while doing so. For example:

    You may know a few, but does that now constitute an expert knowledge of all conservatives?

    Here, we see a vast generalization that an expert knowledge of “all conservatives” is needed to make statements about what it means to support Trump, as if all conservatives support Trump — combined with a fact-free judgment that Corey’s essay must be the result of the kind of paltry understanding that comes from only knowing a few conservatives.

    I don’t have to answer to you or you to me, nor do the so-called “Trumpians” as you have arbitrarily labeled them, but we both along with those Christ died for, will ONLY have to answer to Him.

    Yet, you seem to think that Corey should answer to you and your questions, or perhaps at least that a reader of the comments should answer to those things; it’s hard to think of another reason why you’d post them. Interesting, that.

    Now, what kind of answer would one give Christ for practicing hypocrisy?

  • David Cohen

    “When Bob Shiloh says “Your reasoning skills are not sharp” it is not meant to be patronizing.”
    – Uhm, yes it is. Bob clearly cannot support his position with valid arguments so he tries to assert an impression of authority by simply dismissing what I say. Frankly, you’d really have to not be looking in order to miss the point.

    Speaking of points, let’s dive in, shall we?

    1) Apparently you did not read the passage either:
    “And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.

    And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.”
    – Numbers 5:27-28 (KJV)
    You would have to go through some serious mental gymnastics to convince yourself that is not a chemically induced miscarriage. Oh wait, you already have.

    2) Actually it is The Party which does not accept the abortifcant claim, because it is not expedient for them to do so. And backdating their claims to history is an easy task since their target audience (i.e. you) never questions. Consider how money-lending was historically regarded as a vile sin, but now most Christians have credit cards and most churches have mortgages. The Bible did not change, but condemning money-lending was no longer expedient.

    3) Not relevant to the issue at hand. The issue at hand is that the Bible supposedly explicitly forbids abortion, a claim that is debatable at best.

    4) Again, not relevant to the issue at hand.

    5) “Your naturalistic biases do not prove that the Bible was advocating abortion.” No, the text does that. Apparently the literal word of the text is sufficient when condemning homosexuality, but when abortion is being discussed the literal word is not good enough.

    6) Maybe so, but the evangelicals enthusiastic embracing of Trump clearly indicates that adultery is no longer a problem for them. So why not abortion too?

  • Scott Harrison

    Go on, hate Democrats or progressives. But don’t make Down’s Syndrome sufferers objects of your toxicity.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    The last time Christians as a whole successfully got together and decided what they all believed was in the 4th Century, when they came up with the Nicene creed (link here:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed) and at least the bulk of denominations calling themselves Christian still more-or-less agree on this, at least, although obviously perpetually quarreling about what it means, so if you had to have an objective definition of what a Christian in the historical sense properly believes, that might be one.
    On the other hand, I personally would be reluctant to say someone wasn’t a Christian if they were genuinely following what they thought were the teachings of the historical Jesus, even if they had very different ideas of what they were, or did not think Jesus was, or claimed to be, divine.
    I think it would be odd, however, to describe an atheist who nevertheless ascribed to what they saw as Jesus’s moral teaching as “Christian” since in abandoning a belief in God they would necessarily be abandoning what must have been, in any view, the central core of Jesus’s own beliefs, and whilst they might think Jesus said some good and insightful things, they couldn’t really said to be actually following his teachings in any meaningful sense.

  • Aubreythecat

    Things that are happening are just “talking points” now – I get it. Taking children from their parents and locking them in cages before losing them is just a talking point. Ok.

    Those repubs who are not in support of Trump are keeping their heads well down, aren’t they?

    And, Turning the country round – to what? Can’t you see what he’s doing? His one accomplishment is staring the US on a road to outright fascism – a normal president does not get so upset about criticism that he threatens journalists and other people who have annoyed him. He lies every time he opens his mouth, with lies that are easily shown as such. He encourages his supporters to attack businesses and people he doesn’t like.

    But you don’t care – you don’t dare that your president is seen across the world as a malicious buffoon, you don’t dare that he’s dangerous, you don’t care about the damage he’s doing to your country and its reputation. You don’t care that he shares – with approval – tweets from the accounts of neo-Nazis, you odon’t care that he has no idea of how he’s going to clear up the mess he’s created over the treatment of asylum seekers – and you don’t care that he doesn’t care either.

    What would make you care? What would have have to do for you to say anything against him?

  • Of course you are correct, theologicaly and scripturally. But it’s too bad. Am I the only one who has ever thought, “I wish these evangelicals who are so starry-eyed about The Rapture would GET raptured, so the rest of us could get to work on making a better and kinder world”? That’s my rapture myth – however, I am aware it’s a myth.

  • american

    Well put, Iain. I was disgusted by his primary campaign, and voted for Kasich. But he has done a lot of good things so I am pleased that he has outperformed the negative predictions many had about him.

  • AuroraMoon

    I have relatives who voted for Trump, but they certainly don’t go out of their way to defend everything Trump does. They keep their faith and politics separate… and even they can admit that some of the stuff Trump did pretty much goes against Jesus’s teachings. Of course, they do turn it around by saying that everyone’s a sinner, and that god gets to be the one who judges us all in the end. Many of them seem to regret voting for trump just to “shake up things”… but they don’t really like losing face so they say that all the presidential candidates were pretty shit this time around, so we would’ve “lost” no matter what.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    I would agree Trump has outperformed the negative predictions about him, in the sense that no-one thought he would be this bad. I am wondering what parallel universe you are living in that you perceive this as a president doing well.

  • Cake

    By education I’m a physicist, cause I read a book by Alastair Reynolds once.

  • Kyle

    If I may, I would say that in order to call them self a Christian they would need to follow Christ, which would include calling him the Son of God and the only way to enter God’s kingdom, based off (and I am simplifying my answer for time sake) what Jesus said. Outside that I would say there is a lot of room for some discussion but a Christian would need to start there. They would next need to be pursuing Christlikeness as that is the determined purpose (such as mentioned in the Great Commission and elsewhere)… if they are not following Christ than how are they a Christian? As for what all means there are volumes written on it and this will not be one of them :) That’s my two cents. Does that help, my friend?

  • Kyle

    I was speaking from a Christian perspective. As a Christian ones worldview would start with Christ as the lens. The first comment was regarding Evangelicals reading it and Bob said they should read the Constitution. I agree but if one professes to be a Christian they are first and foremost a follower of Christ, a citizen of this world, second.

  • american

    All his appointments have been good other than Bannon and Tillerson and they’re gone now. All of the problems and “scandals” of his Presidency haven’t been any worse than other recent Presidents, certainly not as bad as Obama’s problems. He has set the economy on a stronger course and has rolled back many burdensome regulations. All my opinions, natch, but i’m not really a parallel universe seeing that he has 48% approval rating currently.

  • Kyle

    The Constitution. But this article was written from a Christian perspective to other Christians, regarding contradictions posed by some people within the church. Ben’s position in this article is discussing Christians and their flip-flopping and not directly to challenge the Constitution.

  • Are you asking in good faith or is this sealioning?

    I’m not sure how I can answer your question without a serious discussion on the problem of evil. Many others have written on this topic, so I hope you’ll forgive me for answering your question in a simplistic, incomplete way.

    In Luke 13:1-9, some believed that catastrophes were punishment for sin. Did Jesus correct this notion by saying that the people were just victims of chance and their deaths were not punishment from God? He did not. Instead he said that all those who do not repent deserve death. Whether you die today or tomorrow is irrelevant. The catastrophic deaths were a tragedy, but they were not unjust. Most Christians believe that God has complete authority to determine whether someone lives or dies. Given this, can God punish even if it means the termination of a pregnancy? Yes, he has that authority. Does that give others the same authority? No, it does not.

  • Javier Gonzalez

    That’s an assumption. How do you know my motive in asking questions? Be careful what you presume to know, my friend. Honest conversation is what allows us all to understand each other better. The more we generalize, the more we arrogantly presume and that only leads to further division.

  • I’m always interested in meeting Fascinating People…https://youtu.be/_cpX3qrzRfk

  • Right. There you go! Your right to destroy a baby. Boy that makes me feel better.

  • Javier Gonzalez

    I don’t think Corey should answer to me as I made plainly clear in my post. Am I incorrect that God is the only one that can read the heart and judge by the heart alone? I think not since scripture declares it to be so. It is a logical fallacy to assume that anyone who voted for Trump or who may support the President think and believe as Corey purports. That is a generalization. In order to make such statements one must be able speak to all conservatives, it’s called evidence, facts and statistics. None here is shown. I am not making any accusations. Yet you, in your own passive aggressive way, decided to pass judgment and accuse me of hypocrisy. I’m saying, lets listen to one another without the spirit of criticism. Understanding is what leads to reconciliation. Christ himself sat, ate and socialized with tax-collectors, who were representatives of an oppressive government and who used their government position to lie, cheat and steal from their own people. Pretty deplorable. The community deemed these tax collectors to be morally debased and rightfully so. Christ sat with them, ate with them and even asked one of them to follow Him and did it without a screening, criticism or self-righteousness. His example tells us – All are welcome and all are valued. That’s all I’m saying. Before we label others, lets remember that God already deems them welcome and valued.

  • You

  • are

  • full

  • of

  • it

  • Since Josh saw fit to jump this conversation to a different location, it continues here [link].

  • Not my claims but the women he raped…

  • And your delirious posts prove what?

  • So why did you assume that Corey had not talked with a Trump voter?

    Be careful what you presume to know.

  • Only one thing.
    If you would simply open your eyes to facts not emotion.

  • Expedited Removal:
    “A 1996 statute permits immigration authorities to deport people without a hearing, a lawyer or a right of appeal under certain conditions, a process known as expedited removal. Under current policy, the Department of Homeland Security criteria for expedited removals apply to undocumented migrants found within 100 miles of the border and within 14 days of entering the country. The statute imposes no geographic limit and allows for expedited removals up to two years after a migrant has entered the country, raising the possibility that the Trump administration may use this power more aggressively.”
    Your interpretation of my original comment is suspect.

  • Glen Hill

    God supposedly said the only way to heaven was to accept HIM. So, Kyle, the bible is contradictory there. Would you say Mother Teresa was a Christian? Look at her horrendous health practices for the poor, sick, and indigent. She felt following Jesus meant promoting poverty. The guy in the next pew will tell you what a “true Christian” is, and it is likely to be a different definition than the next guy. If God had intended the bible to be a good way of spreading his message, why is it that the book has so many different interpretations? Was God bad at dictation or editing or guiding those at the committee meetings to form the bible? A text is a horrible way to convey a message. It is fraught with problems, and it STILL has not reached everyone in the world.

  • Glen Hill

    can interpret their holy book to mean virtually anything, and the next
    person can interpret an opposite meaning from the first. I agree that it
    is very difficult to label Trump as any form of Christian, despite the
    support he gets from evangelicals. But there’s more to their hypocrisy
    than the obvious. Evangelicals seem to hold support for Trump for 1 or 2
    main reasons (mostly pro-life view on abortion). They will spin their
    other religious views as needed, but so do other Christians.

    teachings of immigrants is a case in point. When the US was just
    forming, different denominations of Christians were at war with each
    other leading to exclusion from various parts of the 13 colonies. Also,
    “no such thing as patriotic worship? You’d better not say that to a
    person from an Islamic country. Islam is the state religion ***and***
    the government. Jesus said love our enemies, yet he fashioned a vicious
    whip to attack the moneylenders, and God commanded a boatload of
    genocidal attacks. Trump’s chant of MAGA is full of holes, yes. (When
    exactly was America great? 1950s when there were no civil rights? 1850s
    when a civil war was upon it? 1750s when there was slavery?) However,
    the cry to return to biblical values is also fraught with problems.
    Which values? Where women are inferior to men? Where it was ok to
    slaughter a neighboring tribe? Where the rules said kill unruly
    children? When slavery was condoned? When polygamy was ok?

  • E.A. Blair
  • James

    Germany was a republic before Hitler took over. He slowly absorbed power to where he became a dictator. There’s no reason Trump couldn’t do that, especially with the cowardice Congress is showing in trying to stop anything he is doing.

  • kimc

    The bible has many places where it tells you that you have an obligation to take care of the poor. It also has a few places where it says or implies that the government has an obligation to take care of the poor. (see the other replies you got) But beyond that, you appear to be unclear on the principles of living in a democracy, and of the idea of America: In a democracy, and our American democracy in particular, the government IS us. When our government gives to the poor, that is equal to us giving to the poor, it’s just more efficient. As to your second question, there are answers to that that explain it, however, they may be beyond your simplistic level of comprehension. If you feel you can understand beyond surface arithmetic, I recommend you read *Weapons of Math Destruction* by Cathy O’Neil. As to Clinton’s sexual escapades, before the Republicans pressed their suit on his conduct, it was “no one’s business” — it was customary to give our president some privacy. After you decided to press it, it is now customary that the president does not any longer get to be entitled to privacy. So, it’s your fault.

  • kimc

    Give it up, Jonathan. The bible is not with you on the abortion issue. One line about knowing you in the womb is a big leap to being anti-abortion, especially when all those other things in the bible that say it’s okay exist. You are free to say you decided that the bible was primitive on the issue of abortion and you are amending it to modernize it — that’s what people did with slavery. Beyond that, in America, we do not make our laws to go with the bible, especially one denomination’s interpretation of the bible. (My church is not anti-abortion.) We have freedom of religion and we have separation of church and state. If you don’t like America, you can always move to a country that suits you better, one that is “Christian” if you prefer. We are not.

  • kimc

    Why do you support his policies? They are bad policies.

  • kimc

    Craving power is not an American problem, it’s a human problem, mostly a male human problem. Maybe we should get rid of all the males? :-)

  • James

    Um, in this case it is very much about being white. 81% of White Evangelicals that voted voted for Trump.

  • Marques Bradley

    “How are they not? They both rule over you with or without your consent.”
    Rule over you? You say that as if you’re not entitled to become a part of said government and implement change yourself, much less vote. None of these are options within the mob. This is the exact reason why you cannot compare the government to a criminal organization.

  • Yes there are many reasons.
    True Congress is woefully divided but after the midterms the Republican Senate majority will be more than sufficient to get immigration passed.
    You may not like it.

  • I’m posting it here as well

    Of course you are. Being disinvited never stopped an asshole.

  • kimc

    It used to be that conservatives slowed down change and liberals wanted to welcome change, but in modern times, what Mark1115 said is essentially correct — conservatives are for selfishness and liberals are for generosity. What we really need is a compromise between the two, but the Tea Party folks destroyed the idea that compromise is good for everyone. This has destroyed America.

  • Marques Bradley

    “So if the mob set up three branches and said”
    That wouldn’t be a mob. It would be a Democratic Republic.

    “I mean hell they “vote” in Russia, Mexico, the Philippines, and even China.”
    So, voting is bad because other “nefarious” countries vote too?

  • PedasiPaul

    == Due process at the border is an oxymoron. == Please clarify. Are you saying it’s wrong to provide people with due process in certain parts of the country? If so, in what way is that a conservative view?

  • Fortunately people don’t have a say in enforcing immigration laws whether conservative or evangelical. Limited government as a concept has nothing to do with border security. Security is one of the governments highest responsibilities. The individual rights you mention do not in general attach to illegal immigrants and also have nothing to do with individual liberty. The issue of whether Due Process attaches just because someone runs across the border is a legal distinction that could be avoided by building the wall. Lacking that rather than hiring 5000 more judges to adjudicate border crossing illegals we could simply pick them up in 5000 buses and drive them back.

  • Marques Bradley

    “Even though they took over your property without your consent determining laws and taxing you with consent?”
    Your birth as a citizen is your consent, Josh. It’s not like you’ve opted out of receiving the benefits of taxation and government oversight. Your air is clean, your water is drinkable, you have roads and infrastructure to travel on and operate business with… and you didn’t pay a DIME for it.

  • Marques Bradley

    “Could you be any more socialist?”
    FIFY. The answer is yes, btw. I’m am nowhere near as socialist as you’d think.

    “Air purifiers are made by private companies as are more fuel efficient (greener) industrial goods.”
    RIght. It was government that established the regulations for energy efficiency and environmental purity to begin with. (See Clean Air Act)

    “Water is bottled (and even supplied) by private companies.”
    The water those companies bottle and sell is protected and maintained under the Clean Water Act, among other regulatory laws.

    “Roads have pretty much always been built by private companies; what changes is who pays, and consistently municipal government is short on funds because they suck at managing money.”
    This response is hilarious! You couldn’t just concede the point.. you had to throw in a jab about government mismanagement. To that I say, run for your local comptroller’s office and whip your poor little municipality back into fighting shape!

    “And I sure as hell paid in taxes for under-maintained roads and crumbly public schools.”
    This is true… and it’s by design. The current administration spent all it’s political capital on tax cuts for the rich, taking valuable resources away from fixing our infrastructure problems and rebuilding our schools.

  • . . We’re on the cusp of a civil war in which the Left side of the spectrum wants to DESTROY, kill, assassinate, injure, impeach . . . yada yada this president who was lawfully elected, a man without a police record, with a business background. And THIS CHRISTIAN JOURNAL wants to get behind attacking this Chief Executive? What ever happened to your sense of Rule of Law and Fair Play? Is what you are saying that you PREFER the Clinton criminal mafia and its money-laundering, pay-to-play, child trafficking and charity fraud??? . . . https://youtu.be/hZlYOK1RMk8

  • Nerdsamwich

    How do you figure that any of his appointments have been good? The entire Cabinet is made up of people who made it their career to destroy the very thing they are now in charge of–one of the more shining examples is DeVos–and his SCOTUS pick was considered too racist for the Federal bench in the 80’s. The only reason his scandals and incompetence don’t seem abysmal to you is that they are so numerous that no single one either stands out or even gets fully reported. They just come too thick and fast for news coverage to really lay any of them fully bare. The economy has slowed in the upward trajectory Obama left it in. Finally, we have lost all respect we still had in the eyes of the rest of the world. Thanks to the Angry Orange, America will probably never be great again.

  • Aubreythecat

    They are facts.

    What would have have to do, since – to take one – the neo-Nazi stuff is not enough for you?

  • Aubreythecat

    Report of his recent rally in S Carolina:

    “Trump calls the media “the enemy of the people,” then brags about a
    woman who was recently interviewed and said there was nothing Trump
    could possibly do to lose her support.”

    “Enemy of the people”, for saying things he doesn’t like – doesn’t that bother you?

  • Matthew

    I´m not only the hair club president … I´m also a client :-)

  • James R McKenna


  • No those are partisan facts. The Press is by and large the communication arm of the Democrat Party. They are not journalists. There is no truth in them just opinion like your comments. Terms like Neo -Nazis and Asylum Seekers are just incendiary invective designed to get Liberals like the people on this site emotionally upset.

  • Bones

    You seem to have forgotten how your mob treated obama.

    But hey if you want to worship an adulterer because his words tickle your ears thats your problem.

    Those of us with more sense arent swayed by such bs.

    You wont win a civil war without killing over half of the US.

  • Bones

    Thanks for proving ben’s point, richardhead

  • Since you did not watch the Rally your comments are second hand. But in fact, we agree that the Media are no longer journalists but Democrat operatives. Why should you care what another fellow citizen thinks about her President? Your opinion should count more because you are a Liberal? That’s what you are saying.

  • Bones

    Have you found obamas birth certificate yet?

  • Bones

    Lol….a lawyer whose looking for obamas birth certificate.

    You’d have to be f***ed in the head to have you as a lawyer.

  • Bones

    Lol….you really a hypocritical moron….

    Partisan facts – thats you all over derpy.

  • Bones

    Are Pride Parades running the US?

    The bible actually says to kill gay people and how to perform abortions.

  • James R McKenna

    in little ben’s postmodern philosophical world, truth is simply a social construct, with no further importance. he and his sjw followers think they can make this truth claim and it cannot be rebutted. booo hooo

  • NWaff

    silly, stupid and full of secular world views. Coreyianity.

  • Questioning

    And I am still waiting on that “biggest political scandal in US history” Bob promised.

  • Questioning

    PTE Petroleum Transfer Engineer (ie Pumper of Gas) :>)

  • Not so. It is a life that is terminated to the shame of everyone involved. Calling it a fetus and claiming it has no rights is disingenuous. Consider your position on abortion and your position on immigration issues. They are at odds making you mentally unstable.

  • Matthew

    Hey man … I could use a few hairs up top these days as well :-)! Been that way since my mid 30`s :-)!

    (I will of course qualify my response by saying up front that I am only joking here. I realize there are people (because of heath problems) who have lost their hair and I would never want to make light of that)


  • revmar

    I think he touched a nerve in you…

  • The problem with saying these people do not deserve due process? What happens once this thinking is enshrined in legal thought, becomes normalized, and they then decide that another group also does not deserve due process? Then another, etc.

    And if you think the removal of human rights will just stop with this one circumstance, this one group, you have not been paying attention. Or are woefully ill-informed about human nature. We have rules and standards for a reason. Not to be killjoys but because otherwise some people would never rise to a minimal standard of decency. This includes our leaders.

    Answer this… Without due process, what would stop ICE from grabbing anyone and claiming they are illegal? Including YOU! You say you can PROVE you are legal? Without due process who do you ‘prove’ it to? Where will you show your proof?

    Remember, the law that created ICE gives them the right to interrogate or arrest anyone within ONE HUNDRED MILES of a border, including the sea-shore. Since that means anywhere that someone can enter the country. Including places like Buffalo, Cleveland, and Chicago. Also any airport that accepts international flights. This covers almost ALL of the United States, nowhere in the US would be safe any longer.

    So many of you are inclined to think that unmitigated power and authority will only simplify things, and will only be used ever in ways they approve of, and things will never go sideways. The blood of millions upon millions in the last 100 years alone screams otherwise.

    If you deny anyone due process,
    you deny everyone due process.
    At that point we’re all undocumented immigrants.
    Because if you can’t show your documents to a judge,
    your passport is as useless as your blockbuster card.
    Being identified as a suspect automatically becomes the same as being guilty.

  • revmar

    My mother, an immigrant from Italy at the age of 12, told me that that the people in her town thought Mussolini did a “lot of good things.”

  • SamHamilton

    Thanks Matthew. I appreciate reading your comments here because I can tell you’re trying to work things out your words implicity admit you don’t have it all figured out. Your humility makes me want to be more humble about the things I think I know. I need to work on this.

    I share your desire to “cut and run” sometimes. It’s all so messy and dirty at times. But I don’t think that’s what we’re called to do. But it definitely helps to separate partisan politics from mere politics.

  • Matthew

    Thanks so much SamHamilton. I have changed a lot over the last 10 years or so — in part through circumstances, but I think mainly it was a work of the Spirit.

    I was so far off the rails, so deep in Christian fundamentalism, it took an act of God to pull me out. I do try to be humble — often a quiet witness (not so much online :-)), maybe too quiet?

    I don´t have it all figured out, but I sincerely hope I have the important things figured out. I appreciate your posts as well. Blessings to you this week and beyond.

  • USING corporate, alternative, institutional CONTACTS to BYPASS the governing process is the form of SEDITION that Rich People get into. AFFILIATED CHAINS of COMMAND WITH DEEP POCKETS twist, alter, objectify, discard AND WORK AROUND THE GOVERNING PROCESS. This needs to stop BRIBERY money BUYS influence. Let’s fix this. https://youtu.be/hlCceigGiRY

  • MyLovelyNose

    Wow, SOMEONE’S soft underbelly got pricked!

  • MyLovelyNose

    The only thing you need to know is that EVERY Christian, whether they support executing gays or making ministers of them, believes that he or she is indeed, yessir, surely am, you betcha–a TRUE Christian.

    No Christian is ever going to say, “Well, I’m a Christian, but I may not be a real one or a true one.”

  • MyLovelyNose

    Are you out of your FUCKING MIND? Pruitt? DeVos? Zinke? PERRY?

    You ARE out of your fucking mind. Oh, that’s right–Trumpanzees don’t have MINDS, just this little pinkish thing dangling Down There, that they use as a gauge.
    You must think that CRIMINAL is COMPETENT. Go back to noshing on Trump’s Urine Popsicle.

  • MyLovelyNose

    You’re so upset, James. So angry, so bitter, so hostile.

    Is it that time of the month? Pamprin has helped THOUSANDS.

  • MyLovelyNose

    That PMS disrupting your sleep? Try Pamprin–it will also help your bitchiness.

  • MyLovelyNose

    But it happens to be true. I know drippy Christianists don’t like the truth shoved under their uplifted little noses, but sometimes you dirtbags need to know things.

  • MyLovelyNose

    Oh, baloney. Jesus saw a woman who asked for healing, and because she wasn’t an Israelite, he refused. He even refused until she literally compared herself to a dog eating crumbs from “the King’s” table.

    Jesus was a fucking bigot.

  • You are hopelessly conflicted! Five Judges declare a fetus is not a viable being and can be slaughtered at will as it has no rights AND in the same breath you say the Trump administration does not have the right to enforce existing immigration Laws because you don’t like the those laws. This is why Liberals lost the election and why the Supreme Court is now Right and will be more Right leaning for the next 30-40 years; to prevent absurd decisions that are anti-Christian , anti-God and anti-American. Since you are so wise perhaps you can grow some hair on your Bald Head as obviously some of your brains leaked out with the hair follicles. .

  • Lora C.

    Dear Bald Humanist,
    You ask good questions. Many of us who consider ourselves Christians wrestle with these questions throughout our lives. My thoughts as of now are as follows.
    A Christian is a follower of Christ, who told us, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
    So what is the way? Jesus explained it in Matthew 25 when he told the story of the judgement. He said, “I was hungry and you fed me, I was thirsty, … etc.” Someone who follows that formula is Christ-like and practicing the way.
    What is the truth? Well, that’s a question for our times, isn’t it? There are many answers. But for me, truth is one as God is one. So I try to embrace truth wherever it comes from: the Bible (understanding that the Bible is an ancient collection of stories written in the context of ancient societies); the traditions of the church because many wise and thoughtful people have contributed to them throughout the years; my experience of life and relationships; the evidence of my own eyes and ears; science; and conscience. I try to embrace all these sources and integrate all of them into my understanding of truth. No easy formula, but then we’re grown-ups, aren’t we?
    What is the life? I have seen over my many years that when people follow the Way of Compassion taught by Jesus, others are brought to life. He also taught that he is the vine and we are the branches. He is the source of life and we do well to stay connected to him through prayer and meditation upon his words. That is one way that he feeds those who would follow him.
    As for who is the real Christian out of all who claim the title? At the end of the Matthew 25 story, his listeners asked Jesus, “When was it that I saw you hungry and fed you, when did I see you thirsty … etc.” Jesus answered, “When you did these things for the least of my brothers and sisters, you did it for me.” The point that hits me in this comment is that they didn’t have to proclaim or even know they were doing it for Jesus. It pleased God anyway. I take this to mean that you don’t have to wrap yourself in the title “Christian.” Just follow the way, respect the truth for it is godly, and nurture the life of those around you, and you are a genuine follower of Christ.

  • CharleyBo

    Very well said, Nerdsamwich!

  • american

    This response is a typical example of the incivility which dominates those who are emotionally animated but otherwise vacant of arguments. Those suffering from Trump derangement seem almost incapable of avoiding potty language, even on a Christian website. It does little to convince those of different opinions, and has led to the #WalkAway campaign. If you haven’t heard of the #WalkAway campaign yet, check it out. It is a movement out of the democrat party as a direct result of behavior and language like yours. These people are embarrassed more by you than they are by Trump, and I agree with them.

  • SamHamilton

    Your definition of conservatism is like someone on the right saying progressivism is all about creating large, inefficient, distant bureaucracies full of technocrats who want to control how other people live in order to further their quest for utopia. How can progressive Christians serve this God while claiming loyalty to Jesus?

    Do you think your definition of conservatism and my definition of progressivism are helpful definitions designed to convince others of the error of their ways or are they caricatures designed to make one’s own side seem more righteous?

  • PedasiPaul

    So some people on American soil are not entitled to due process, in your opinion.
    It seems to me the core of conservative doctrine is this principle: In America, the only legitimate power is a limited power. I agree with that principle, but I’m not sure you do, since you are willing to give the chief executive unchecked authority to detain and expel people.. I also agree with Justice Frankfurter when he said, “The history of liberty has largely been the history of observance of procedural safeguards.”

    I remember that for many decades conservatives warned about the concentration of power in the presidency. They criticized FDR and other Democrats for accumulating too much power. Now conservatives favor removing due process and lodging power only in the chief executive. It seems to me conservatism has changed in the Trump era. Not that I expect you to admit that, since you won’t recognize that Bill Clinton’s adultery was judged far more harshly by evangelicals than is Donald Trump’s. Character used to count.

  • SamHamilton

    Ugh… I just spent 10 minutes scrolling through the comment section here. I need a shower.

    Serious question for Mr. Corey – What did you hope to accomplish by writing this and do you think you accomplished it? Was it more than an exercise in catharsis? I really get the desire to write something like this, but I’m not sure it brings out anyone’s better angels.

  • This feels relevant: https://www.npr.org/2016/10/23/498890836/poll-white-evangelicals-have-warmed-to-politicians-who-commit-immoral-acts

    No group has shifted their position more dramatically than white evangelical Protestants. More than seven in ten (72%) white evangelical Protestants say an elected official can behave ethically even if they have committed transgressions in their personal life—a 42-point jump from 2011, when only 30 % of white evangelical Protestants said the same.

  • Aubreythecat

    I read a commentary on it. The Leaders who call the Media “The Enemy of the People” are always fascist. Trump can’t stand criticism. This is a president who’ll call his followers to mob one person who has annoyed him – pathetic.

    How do you work that out? In England newspapers criticise the Conservative Government without being called Labour papers – Conservative papers criticising a Conservative Govt – how about that?

    What would Trump have to do to lose your support? He once boasted that he could murder someone and people would still vote for him. He’s shown that he can take children away from their parents and put them in cages and his followers still worship him. I’m not saying my opinion counts for more, ,just that Trump’s followers seem to be able to support him whatever he does. So, I ask once again, what for you would count as going too far?

  • North Korea is expanding their nuclear facilities, precisely as they have done after every other time they have vowed to denuclearize. https://www.wsj.com/articles/north-korea-still-building-at-nuclear-research-facility-despite-summit-diplomacy-1530100351

    Separating kids from their parents is a recent thing, since prior to the Zero Tolerance policy passed this year, standard practice was to charge parents with a misdemeanor and hold them with their kids in a family detention center if they were to be prosecuted further. The cages were certainly there and that’s a damn shame; why are they still there? Why are they being used today? You don’t get let off the hook for continuing an abominable practice simply because it’s tradition.

    As for economic performance, the DOW dropped 3000 points in the weeks after the tax bill was passed has been in a slump ever since. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0d44644fdc632c9b7eba95a4eab70ebee3da3f3d3e7054b4864155607bc28e84.jpg

  • “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” —John Steinbeck

  • Aubreythecat

    There is no such thing as a partisan fact.

    Neo-Nazis exist: people today who sport swastikas and chant Nazi slogans and the like. They were at Charlottesville. And Trump has supported them. That’s not a partisan fact: it has happened, at least twice that I know of.

    An asylum seeker is a someone who has applied for asylum in a country other than their own. That is not illegal. You ought to be grateful that it’s not something you will ever have to do, and show some empathy for those who do have to.

  • Interesting. You equate wealth with effort?

    So when a person passes down wealth to their children, like, say, Fred Trump, does that mean his children have worked adequately to deserve that wealth?

  • I find it incredibly ironic that you defend the rich as being in their just and rightful place, but oppose government — made up almost exclusively of those same people, almost exclusively for those same people.

  • Trump is the one who suggested that people exercising their free speech be punished by being stripped of citizenship, a blatant, egregious violation of the first amendment.

  • Laughably false, considering the strength of America’s safety net has only eroded since then as taxes on the wealthy have been vastly decreased and access to essential needs has waned for the poor and working class. Rent has increased, home ownership decreased, cost of healthcare increased. Profits have skyrocketed while wages have remained stagnant. Income inequality is at all time highs.

    This is revisionist history at best.

  • But if their inheritance is invested in some index stocks and the child never actually works a day in their life, merely living off the gains from those stocks, that’d be okay as long as their parents (or someone in their family history) had theoretically worked hard for it?

    (And not, say, gotten a handful of government grants to build some real estate for the poor, drew in grotesque profits from rent lord practices, then knocked it over and built condos for the rich instead?)

    Beach Haven ain’t my home!
    No, I just can’t pay this rent!
    My money’s down the drain,
    And my soul is badly bent!
    Beach Haven is Trump’s Tower
    Where no black folks come to roam,
    No, no, Old Man Trump!
    Old Beach Haven ain’t my home!

    —Woodie Guthrie

  • I find it hard to believe anyone can read Matthew 5 and not think self-sacrifice is an essential part of Christianity. Among the list of prohibitions and prescriptions:

    1) Never attack anyone in any way, even verbally
    2) Forgive all debts against you
    3) It is better to lose your body than to lose your soul
    4) Do not defend yourself from harm
    5) Always give more than is demanded from you
    6) Love those who hate you and treat them as if they were your neighbor

  • Trump can’t even remember which of those “sons of bitches” he’s supposed to be attacking. http://www.politifact.com/pennsylvania/statements/2018/jun/05/donald-trump/president-trump-said-eagles-players-kneeled-anthem/

  • For the same reason we don’t mate sheep in front of speckled branches in order to produce speckled sheep.

  • 2) Considering various translations of the Bible explicitly state that guilt will result in a miscarriage, I’m curious what constitutes “accepted doctrine.”

  • Genesis 2:7, God “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and it was then that the man became a living being.”

    Job 33:4, “The spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.”

    Ezekiel 37 has bones given animation and flesh, but it isn’t until they breathe that they are alive.

    Hence why first breath was considered the point at which a person is considered alive. Sometime later, others defined it at quickening — when people became able to feel movement from the fetus (between weeks 16-25 of a typical pregnancy).

    Also considered relevant is how the death of a fetus in Exodus 21:22 isn’t considered akin to murder. Provided you’re using a translation prior to a certain cultural shift following a certain court case, anyway.

    NASB 1977: And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is not further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide.

    NASB 1995: If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide.

    Yeah, that ain’t blatant at all.

  • In addition to commanding the murder of anyone who doesn’t worship God, but we don’t acknowledge Deuteronomy 13. That’s one of those parts that doesn’t apply anymore, unlike the numerous parts in the same book which do apply according to some sort of code which is really quite oddly vague and seems to have originated piecemeal over the centuries.

  • Yeah… Harley Davidson is thrilled… nail manufacturers are thrilled… and how’re those coal miners doing? Looking to create a hundred new jobs? That’ll fix everything, I’m sure.

    Shame about your 401K though. Oh well, nobody actually counted on retiring anyway.

  • Oh I wish those terms were inapplicable. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHNN-IFVoAkwiuZ.jpg

  • Remember, words on a forum are inciting violence, but sentiments like this

    You know, part of the problem, and part of the reason it takes so long, is nobody wants to hurt each other anymore, right? And they’re being politically correct the way they take them out, so it takes a little bit longer. And honestly, protesters, they realize it. They realize that there are no consequences to protesting anymore. There used to be consequences, there are none anymore.


    He was a guy who was swinging [punches] — very loud, and then started swinging at the audience and you know what, the audience swung back, and I thought it was very, very appropriate. He was swinging, he was hitting people, and the audience hit back. And that’s what we need a little bit more of.


    If you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them, would you? Seriously, ok. Just knock the hell — I promise you I will pay for the legal fees, I promise.

    are not.

  • Acts 2:44-45

    “And all who believed were together and had all things in common; and they sold their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, as any had need.”

    Acts 4:32,34-35

    “Now the company of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things which he possessed was his own, but they had everything in common. … There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles’ feet; and distribution was made to each as any had need.”

    Darn Commies.

  • Trump has also been accused of rape by several women, and moreover boasted about being able to commit sexual assault without repercussions.

  • Due process is assured for citizens and non-citizens alike. This has been upheld by the Supreme Court. This is why even toddlers are being called into court for mock-trials — unfortunately, the Constitution doesn’t assure representation, only a trial. https://www.texastribune.org/2018/06/27/immigrant-toddlers-ordered-appear-court-alone/

  • Come, come now. You mean Flag Burners? The President is just expressing a sentiment held by many people. He is entitled to his opinion just as you are.

  • Really? I bet he can…

  • Abortion is murder plain and simple. No civilized society has ever practiced it to the degree. Do you think we will escape punishment for this egregious sin?

  • Completely over the top for sure.
    Because their feet touch our shore does not mean they are entitled to due process; It just means our system is broken and needs repaired. Activist judges will be weeded out.
    Instead of worrying about ICE you might worry about the senior management of the FBI and DOJ planting a spy in your midst to try and get you in trouble without proper judicial overview.

  • No. You just can’t read.
    You infer incorrectly.
    Donald Trump was a playboy; Bill Clinton is a serial rapist.

  • Your grasp of foreign policy is weak.
    Your analysis of immigration issues is superficial as with most Liberals.
    Stock Market. Look at the GDP and you will realize what is going on.

  • Your grasp of the bible is even weaker than of politics and the economy. But I have no use for supporters of abortion. None. Why don’t you volunteer to perform a few and see how it makes you feel?

  • PedasiPaul

    Clinton had an affair with Monica Lewinski. I twice asked about adultery and you twice evaded my question by changing the subject. I guess if I had flipped on whether character counts in the White House, I wouldn’t want to admit it either.

    As far as the topic you keep bringing up, Trump has been accused of sexual assault and harassment by more than a dozen women. Let me guess: You believe all of Clinton’s accusers but not one of Trump’s, right?

  • Juanita Broaddrick claims she was raped. She is not alone. What was your question about adultery? I said Donald was a NY playboy. He has been married three times. Character is not defined just by marital fidelity.

  • In this case there is. Re-read the story and you will see it was purposefully mis-reported.
    Trump did no such thing. The media said he did. They lied.
    THE PRESIDENT: Those people — all of those people –excuse me, I’ve condemned neo-Nazis. I’ve condemned many different groups. But not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me. Not all of those people were white supremacists by any stretch. Those people were also there because they wanted to protest the taking down of a statue of Robert E. Lee.
    The vast majority of the country want illegal immigration stopped not encouraged.

  • You are wrong. Trump will not allow the Fake News Media to define him and they cannot abide that simple fact. The person who has called for mob action is Maxine and she should be and will be censured for her comments.

    Your frustration with this President is just beginning. He is fulfilling his campaign promises one at time despite interferrence
    from all sides: Media, Never Trumpers, Democrats, Elites and Progressives.

  • Aubreythecat

    No, he had just enough deniability to get out of it, but – crucially – to allow the Nazis to believe he hadn’t condemned them. And he retweeted – with approval – some anti-Islamic lies from a British neo-Nazi group.

    No illegal immigration: people seeking asylum. The vast majority of people wanted to turn away Jewish refugees in the 30s: a proud moment in any nation’s history

    Anyway, someone seems to have done Trump’s bidding and killed some journalists, and righties all over the internet are cheering – happy now?

  • So you believe Trump is a neo-Nazi sympathizer? You are in a small group of Trump hater there aren’t you?
    Immigration is a big problem and Liberals have no solution. Open borders has no support and it should not.
    I am starting to believe you are not all there with that last comment. I know the Media is invested in Trump’s impeachment and you know it but we don’t advocate killing them. By saying someone killed at Trump’s bidding casts you as a wack-a-doo!

  • Questioning

    “Character is not defined just by marital fidelity.”

    It’s a pretty good indicator. Throw in a some sexual harassment, some lewd language, some shady business dealings, some lying, some idiotic tweeting often containing bad grammar, misspellings, and childish name calling (all of this from the POTUS no less) and voila! You now have a bona fide low life, low character, thin skinned buffoon guarding the hen house. Not that Cheeto Mussolini does not have any class…. he has lots of class.. all low.

  • You have no perspective on life. Equating tweets and character indicates you aren’t serious. Name calling was a deliberate and is a deliberate strategy that worked and got Trump elected. You know what low lifes are as they live in every community. You know what buffoons are I am sure; Trump is neither.

    As to men and sex you are either woefully ignorant there too or you hope your comments have some impact. They don’t because most on this site agree with you before they even read your posts. What character does Bill Clinton possess? He has lived a life of indulgence and now it shows in his face. As far as President’s go he is the singular and poster child for low moral character.

  • Equating personal transgressions as relevant to political life depends on the transgression. Men and sex is something that will never change. People judge for themselves on these things. Why? Because they want politicians who can solve their problems. Progressive social issues do not resonate with most Americans. Don’t believe me watch the supposed Blue Wave fail to materialize and you will see this proved but you will still not nnderstand.

  • Ben is selling his blog; nothing more nothing less. This one went through the roof and the gloves came off.

  • I thought he had his computer privileges revoked. Too bad they were restored.

  • bnelms

    He sure does assume a lot doesn’t he. I would certainly like to sit down and speak to him about all of this. Then I would have him to explain who he would suggest I vote for. Trump has certainly been the most Christian president of my lifetime. I’ll be about as clear as I can be about this but there is nothing in the democratic platform that has anything to do with God. As a matter of fact they had to vote him back into the platform which was quite embarrassing. During the founding of this country that would’ve made them anti-American.
    None of us can be responsible for all the leaders actions and there should be grace for all of it but there is certainly nothing in the democratic platform that has anything to do with Christianity. Jesus never ordained the government to help the poor. it was always the individuals that had love attached to it and not a cold check in the mail that creates sluggards.
    So yeah many of us had comfort and had to cling to Romans 13 else we would have been worse during the Obummer admin.

  • Good analysis. The readers won’t be able to handle it.

  • otrotierra

    Bones… it’s been a while! Just a heads-up: a fraudulent Disqus account impersonating me has again resurfaced. This is the 6th occurance of such harrassing behavior.

    While the Evangelical troll can steal my username and avatar, he lacks the tools to steal my profile history. My Disqus account was opened in 2011, remains public, with 4,780 comments and 14,158 upvotes. The abuser’s fraudulent account is set to private, of course, and was opened in June 2018:


    Evangelical trolls certainly have earned their abusive reputations.

  • Foul creature go back in your hole.

  • Silly and unfounded opinion without substance.

  • There is hope. Thanks to the person who mentioned #WalkAway:
    Thread: I decided to #WalkAway as a former Obama supporter after realizing how dangerous the Democratic Party is. Open borders. High taxes. Socialism. Sucking up to Islamic terrorists. Taking away our guns. The LLM (Lying Liberal Media), Sanctuary cities. GENDER PRONOUNS…
    I was a Democratic activist for 15 years, but the 2016 election opened my eyes. I don’t recognize the party anymore. It is corrupt and hostile to independent thinkers; its leaders are divisive and hypocritical. It advances no ideas or serious policy, just hostility. #WalkAway
    A Democrat would give the shirt off my back and the money in my pocket to an illegal immigrant – which is one of the MANY reasons why I chose to #WalkAway
    Voted for Bill Clinton, Al Gore, John Kerry, and Obama. My eyes were opened once I found out the real frauds that the Democrat party had become. None of them ever delivered any promise ever made. Until Trump came along … the rest is history. #WalkAway #MAGA2020

  • SamHamilton

    What do you mean by “selling?”

  • Bones

    Lol…yeah I’m fine.

    Its just boring watching the US descend into madness.

    Hope your family is well

    (Keep safe from those gay abortionists)

  • Bones

    Some civility please.

    Lock her up!

  • Bones

    Would you expect anything less, ot?

  • VMWH

    I am very sadly impressed with the way so many people commenting on this article are so clearly illustrating the faux christian points the author makes. Perhaps a little less defensiveness and a little more prayerful thought might make those people sound more rational and less hate filled.

  • The Democrats are out of control, but there is hope. Thanks to the person who mentioned #WalkAway: A few gems from former Democrats.

    Thread: I decided to #WalkAway as a former Obama supporter after realizing how dangerous the Democratic Party is. Open borders. High taxes. Socialism. Sucking up to Islamic terrorists. Taking away our guns. The LLM (Lying Liberal Media), Sanctuary cities. GENDER PRONOUNS…
    I was a Democratic activist for 15 years, but the 2016 election opened my eyes. I don’t recognize the party anymore. It is corrupt and hostile to independent thinkers; its leaders are divisive and hypocritical. It advances no ideas or serious policy, just hostility. #WalkAway
    A Democrat would give the shirt off my back and the money in my pocket to an illegal immigrant – which is one of the MANY reasons why I chose to #WalkAway
    Voted for Bill Clinton, Al Gore, John Kerry, and Obama. My eyes were opened once I found out the real frauds that the Democrat party had become. None of them ever delivered any promise ever made. Until Trump came along … the rest is history. #WalkAway #MAGA2020

  • Marques Bradley

    “No, I meant fascist. Socialism is just specific form of fascism.”
    No. No, it’s not. They’re not even close. That’s like saying oil and water are the same since they’re both liquids. Honestly, this might be my last response to you, especially if you’re struggling to understand the fundamental difference between the two factions.

    “From 1950 until 1970, the amount of volatile organic compounds and carbon monoxide in the nation’s air fell by more than 20 percent”
    Not only is this false, it comes from a Libertarian think tank (proudly tax-exempt!). I’ve included a link with an interactive graph that details the rise and fall of SO2 on a global scale. This data comes from a non-partisan source.

    “Well, I don’t believe in ruling over people. That being said, you can’t, because so many cities are already in debt after promising people that they’re the solution to their problems.”
    Debt is not problem that can’t be solved. It’s rather easy, if you have the right tools and resources.

    “Well, those tax cuts are actually increasing revenues for the municipalities”
    While those estimates were good for Iowa and Maryland, estimates for other states like Alabama weren’t so good.

    “WTF is political capital?”
    Google it, Josh.

    “He didn’t cause the infrastructure problems; they’ve been there for decades. Government sucked at “doing its job”.”
    This is a pathetic, adolescent attempt at an argument. He’s the leader of the government and it is now his job to fix this nation’s problems. Not only that, one of his campaign promises was about rebuilding infrastructure.

    “These have sucked worse each year for over 40 years and got vastly more expensive. Government sucked at doing its job. It’s not that expensive to teach children; it’s not any worse than many other jobs out there.Yet, they get funding from people who don’t even have children in their school system (that is, they are forced to buy this product), and yet they continue to need more money. It’s ludicrous.”
    You’re all rhetoric and no substance. I urge you to look deeper than surface level into the problems that ail our education system and what negative effects poor education has on a society.

  • Angie Boom

    Please cite where any Democratic representative has called for open borders.

  • Angie Boom

    Trump has been the most Christian president of your lifetime? How old are you? Also, where does any part of the Constitution call for the President to be a Christian?

  • Angie Boom

    Is “playboy” the new Christian word for adulterer? Did you replace fornicator with that too? Btw, Trump is as much of a rapist as Clinton, whether or not you like it.

  • Joslyn Renfrey

    Oh no! Not the GENDER PRONOUNS!
    Anything but that! :P

  • otrotierra

    Well, this is the 6th occurance of the fraudulent impersonation account. Then there are also the three private Disqus accounts who post nothing other than frothing-at-the-mouth condemnations targeted directly at me. Then there are the numerous public Disqus users like SamHamilton whose practice of Evangelical communication is limited to obfuscation, derailment, denial, unwarranted attacks, and other bullying attempts to silence those he’s unable to legitimately argue against.

    Why should we expect any less, as you say.

  • Joslyn Renfrey

    Seriously though, by the way that you capitalise ‘gender pronouns’ its like you think trans people are the very worst of the list…
    I mean, what the hell do you think we’re going to do to you?

  • Joslyn Renfrey

    behold, one of said people who shifted their morality to suit their ends.

  • Joslyn Renfrey

    “Some more radical liberals will finally just call me a Nazi or fascist if I disagree or JUST ask probing questions.”

    Could you provide some personal examples?

  • bnelms

    Yes he has…atleast his policies and judicial picks. Im 49. Documents of such brilliance and equality come from nowhere else than the Bible and Christians. The constitution doesnt say anyone has to be a Christian but the wording drives towards that bent and most of the founding fathers certainly were.
    The Declaration of Independence, the most famous document produced by the Continental Congress during the War for Independence, proclaims: “We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” As well, this text references “the laws of nature and of nature’s God” and closes by “appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world” and noting the signers’ “reliance on the protection of divine Providence.” The Founders’ use of Christian rhetoric and arguments becomes even more evident if one looks at other statements of colonial rights and concerns such as the Suffolk Resolves, the Declaration of Rights, and the Declaration of the Causes and Necessity of Taking up Arms—to say nothing of the dozen explicitly Christian calls for prayer, fasting, and thanksgiving issued by the Continental and Confederation Congresses

  • bnelms

    Even George Bush. Where were all these guys when Obama was going after Christians and anti Christian policies? Nothing from the left. Amazing. This is who they want?

  • Joslyn Renfrey
  • Nerdsamwich

    Also cite where borders are a good thing.

  • Nerdsamwich

    By all means, point out where any of it is wrong. If my opinions are unfounded, yours are at least as much so, as we offered the same amount of supporting evidence. Edit: I mentioned DeVos’s career specifically, which is trivially easy to look up. Therefore, my opinion currently stands as the more founded and substantial of the two.

  • Angie Boom

    There is nothing wrong with borders, and no one in the Democratic party has suggested open borders. It’s a ruse.

  • Angie Boom

    God is not the property of Christianity. God existed long before, and will exist long after. The Creator they are referring to is, btw, not Jesus. So no, you cannot claim Christianity. Some of the founding fathers were Christian, some were Deists, and some were definitely Christians in name only. However, none of that proves that 45 is somehow “the most Christian President” of your time. That is a ridiculous and outrageous claim. I think you might want to brush up on what Christianity actually is, not what Trump is selling.

  • Nerdsamwich

    Plenty wrong with borders. For instance, it’s hard to have a war without them. Possible, but more difficult. It’s impossible to have a trade deficit without borders. Or immigration issues. Or corrupt customs officials. What good things do borders accomplish again?

  • Nerdsamwich

    Stunningly nuanced argument, that.

  • Angie Boom

    All utopian visions aside, I’m staying on topic, thanks.

  • Angie Boom

    45 has lived a life of indulgence and it shows on his everything. He’s a greedy, narcissist who thinks the rules- any rules- don’t apply to him. As for your opinions on men and sex, of course those are your opinions on it as a man. The rest of us would like a President who can keep it in his pants.

  • Angie Boom

    It’s a blog post, not an article in the Washington Post.

  • The last bit.

    I get actively annoyed by people who call themselves by the “Christian” label who are also atheists (there was a blogger here on Patheos I used to read who did just that – Radical Christian Millennial. They had interesting social justice ideas and were clearly passionate, but I never felt comfortable replying to their blog on the comments because I thought “As soon as I proclaim a belief in an actual God and a belief in Jesus as more than just a man with good ideas, this person is going to look down on me and even though I’m progressive / liberal-type – this ‘Chrisitan’ is not going to see me as a sister.” I also wondered why they would give themselves the bad reputation of associating with the name “Christian” if they weren’t actually one. Hell, I’m reluctant to associate with the “anity” name anymore, despite being an actual believer and only do so because there’s not really any better descriptor right now for what I am that’s caught on yet (“Spiritual but not Religious” is the closest and what I tend to qualify myself as – and holy cow, did I have some awkward conversations trying to explain my beliefs yesterday with chaplins who approached me at a hospital in the waiting area while my husband was undergoing heart surgery. Why, yes, I’m stressed, thanks for asking).

    I think that many people would think of the Radical Christian Millenial and others like him as smarter if he was honest and labeled himself as an atheist and that a person who “likes Christ for the philosophy” ought to, at most, call themselves “Christians by Philosophy,” or “Christ-follower in philosophy, but not belief,” making it clear that they admire the red letters the way a lot of us admire Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. – (admired words and philosophy, not literal worship). There’s nothing wrong with the whole “admiring something as meaningful philosophy and / or mythology” without actually believing in it, but I think it is helpful for those in that boat to differentiate themselves from believers for the sake of clarity and identity.

  • He hasn’t gotten us nuked to twinkling ash yet. That’s a plus.

    The key word, however, is “Yet.”

  • Bones

    Thats the dumbest post ever.

    You obviously dont even know what a Christian is.

  • Bones

    Derpy the founding fathers were deists.

    Notice how your ‘brilliant’ and ‘equal’ documents were used against blacks and native Americans.

    The supreme judge of the world is mightily pissed with people like yourself.

  • Bones

    So you call your insane ramblings, the gloves coming off.

    Oh dear, you really are pathetic.

  • Uh… Its not unnatural or even hypocritical (as you seem to imply) for someone to have no problem with Clinton, yet have a problem with Trump, because, you know, there’s normal everyday common sin and standard “stupid presidential decisions” and then there’s…cartoon villain-like super-evil. Praise of dictators. Open calls for shutting down the free press / any press that is even slightly critical of him…Setting up what looks like the beginnings of actual-factual concentration camps and enacting policy to tear children from their parents. Standard lying about sexytime pales in comparison. Clinton was wrong and should be held to it, however… there’s apples to oranges.

  • Bones

    And there you were posting from gay hating sites and claiming they had nothing against gays.

    Why do you people think anyone gives a f### about what you think when you consistently and deliberately lie.

  • Bones

    Lol…has mum let you use the computer this week, bob?

    Poor bob hates being owned by bones who points out what a massive hypocrite he is.

  • Bones

    Nope…..that is not an accurate portrayal of church history. There was a lot of people exiled to pass nicea eg the arians.

    In fact if you look in the Bible, the Twelve were not convinced by Pauline Christianity.

  • Bones

    Poor bob doesnt like it when people say mean things about his false messiah.

  • Bones

    Yeah. Lock him up.


    Meanwhile Trump supporters spread their hate throughout the US.

  • Bones

    Speaking about yourself again strawman.

  • Bones

    Womp, womp!

  • Repentance is a thing, you know.

    It is entirely different from proudly continuing to lie, cheat and steal while claiming “only God can judge me.”

  • Bones

    Christ also declared those who oppressed others as outside the kingdom of god. He villified their policies which created inequality and division.

    He was executed for a reason.

    Has anyone accused you of not being an american yet?

  • Bones

    Do you think Jesus generalised about the pharisees?

    Or did trump generalise about mexicans?

  • Bones

    Hmmmm i remember a time when obama’s executive orders=dictatorship.

    What changed?

  • Bones

    Thankfully sanhedrin followed due process when they had jesus executed.

    You arent a christian are you?

  • Bones

    Funny I remember you people going nuts about Clintons immorality.

    Trump has clinton beat easily on the race to the bottom of humanity.

  • Bones

    Yeah unlike making fun of disabled people, dog whistling to racists about blacks and mexicans…

    All the things you want in a president.

  • Bones

    A bit like how you dismiss standards of morality then.

  • Bones

    The hallmark of a conservative is their deceit and hypocrisy….

    Just like jesus showed when he confronted them.

  • Bones

    No you dont.

    You committed the same crime that others have followed in following men…like hitler, franco, mussolini.

  • Bones

    Yeah we get that you serve trump before christ.

  • Aubreythecat

    He’s not necessarily a sympathiser himself, but he doesn’t want neo-Nazis to think that: the easiest thing in the world is to condemn Nazis outright, and he couldn’t do it: he hedged about, allowing Nazis to think he’d done well by them. And retweeting some anti-Muslim crap by a British neo-Nazi group is at best stupid – but he isn’t stupid, not like that: he know who that kind of thing appeals to. (He left his retweet up, by the way; the original tweet was taken down, but he left his: he’s not going to back off, not even with something like that.

    Trump’s talk of the Media as the Enemy of the US people is the talk of a fascist; after the Pizzagate thing (a conspiracy promoted by people close to Trump, with no attempt by Trump to deny it) where someone with a gun went to rescue the children that were supposed to be locked in a non-existent basement by Hillary (Christ, and you call me wack-a-doo), that kind of talk is irresponsible. And that woman from the NRA saying journalists should be curb-stomped: another Trump supporter who won’t back off.

    Anyway. we’ll see how he plays this: but he’s not going to pull back, is he? And there were a lot of his supporters on the internet last night delirious that journalists had been killed, and he wants to keep their support. So, he’ll do a general statement, and he won’t say anything about his words, or the words of his supporters. And then in a few weeks or months he’ll be back on the fascist “enemy of the people” fake news crap.

    It’s odd, hearing Americans talk about immigration being a problem. Maybe you ought to have thought of that before.

    And – again – how far does he have to go before you stop supporting him? Then again, however far he goes, it would probably be fake news and he never said it – that’s how it usually works, doesn’t it?

  • Bones

    After being away i thought i’d come back to see if trump supporters are still deluded.


    What we have here folks is a new religion.

  • There are people I have met who absolutely CANNOT be wrong about anything (That is, they can never admit that they were wrong in the history of their lives – to the point that if someone remembers something about them that they dislike, their memories of the event literally change, not even a deliberate lie, but a literal changed memory). The idea that they could make a mistake or get something wrong is devastating to them, therefore, while they might be otherwise decent and intelligent people, they will make up excuse after excuse (irrational reasons) to do everything to avoid admitting to anyone or themselves that they were wrong about a thing, even when it is biting them in the ass. Its a loss of pride, I think. Some people are able to be vulnerable and to admit defeat and to reasses their decisions, but the “always must be right” people absolutely have to find someway, somehow that they were never, ever wrong. These are the die-hards, the people who double-down. I actually have a bit of sympathy for them because I see a great weakness in people who are never able to admit that they have been or can be weak and I find it very sad.

  • Bones

    Lol and you had a religious experience to follow trump.

    Many did the same with hitler.

    Btw why do you hate immigrants given that you are one?

  • Bones

    You guys were too busy crying because you couldnt bash gay people anymore.

    Btw there are those of us who criticised bush and obama for their foreign policies.

    But trump is off limits to his disciples.

  • Bones

    Anything that criticises der fuhrer.

  • Bones

    As opposed to say lying or stirring up racists.

  • Bones

    Trump bragged about people like you.

    He could shoot someone and you would cheer him on.

    He was quite open about how he’s using you.

  • Matthew

    What do you define as Pauline Christianity, Bones … or, rather, how do you briefly define it?

  • Those are quotes from people who have left the democrat party not my words.

  • Wrong? No one seriously questioned Judge Gorsuch’s qualifications because he was above reproach. Racist is simply a democrat/progressive slur. Your opinion is noted and filed in the trashcan.

  • Joslyn Renfrey

    If only you had the backbone to own up to the words you spread.

  • Really. When have you had one of those? Kennedy or Clinton?

  • Questioning

    Good grief Bob, this is delusional nonsense, My wife read me a quote from a work of fiction that immediately reminded her of Trump and the secret of his success……

    “the general culture is often stupid or evil and would vote out God in favor of the devil if he fed them back their hate and fear in a way that made them righteous.”

  • Sorry. You are not a serious person. Your hatred is pretty far off the charts. But you can shift your anger to McConnell now as he is committed to replacing Justice Kennedy before the new session starts. This will lock out Supreme Court activism for 40 years.

  • I think you may have missed the point. These are people like you who have woken up. So where I thought there was no hope I see there could be. I will spread #WalkAway far and wide. It is an epiphany.

  • See Senator Feinstein: “Every Senate Democrat is now a co-sponsor of the legislation which would prohibit children from being separated from their parents within 100 miles of the U.S. border except for instances of abuse, neglect or other specific circumstances.”

  • Joslyn Renfrey

    Most of us have enough awareness to not be voting for known rapists, thanks.

  • Sorry. You are wrong:

    “Juanita Broaddrick — birth name Juanita Smith, first married name Juanita Hickey — is an American former nursing home administrator. Wikipedia
    Born: December 13, 1942 (age 75 years), United States of America
    Education: Van Buren High School
    Books: You’d Better Put Some Ice on That: How I Survived Being Raped by Bill Clinton”

    Let’s see your accuser?

  • I don’t think so. You question how Trump got elected? How did Obama get elected? He had no experience in running anything and it showed all through his two terms.

  • Really? Where is your cite?

  • David Cohen

    And as everyone knows, random posts on the internet are always true!

  • David Cohen

    Strange that someone like you who is so anti-abortion would be in favor of traumatizing children.
    I guess its true what they say: once a child is born the “pro-life” crowd could not care less about them.

  • David Cohen

    RANDOMLY capitalizing words MAKES my argument MORE persuasive.

  • Joslyn Renfrey

    I get labelled a cultural marxist… whatever that means…
    I even have it on my profile… to kind of mock that the idea that I’m part of some marxist conspiracy.

  • They are not random; look it up: #WalkAway

  • David Cohen

    And how do you know they are genuine?

    Or do you not care because it supports what you want to believe?

  • David, there is no truth to your comment. The only reason that this issue exists is for Democrat political strategy. My position is that they should not be here or should be returned immediately. That is not abuse. Your fight is not with the President it is with the immigration system. However, it will not get Democrats elected.

  • Joslyn Renfrey

    This is is a good list of references:

    Check out the rest of the article, it lists all the women who have accused trump of sexual misconduct, and their reported stories.

  • Ok. I looked at the first cite. Rape is not alleged in any of those cites. Why should I continue? Tell me who he Raped and give me her name so I can research. Juanita has told the world that Bill Raped her. There is a difference.

  • Grow up. Look it up. Understand you are the minority and people are fleeing from Progressive ideas not embracing them. Where is your Blue Wave?

  • jekylldoc

    Bald Humanist – since I don’t believe God is supernatural (yes, that’s what I said – I can explain if you care) I have no trouble identifying Jesus as divine. But even though my beliefs are pretty far outside orthodoxy, I teach Sunday School and am considered a pillar of my church. This seeming contradiction is not at all contradictory for me because I don’t think Christianity is about a set of beliefs, or ever was.

    What I honor as godly and seek to foster and nourish is the mutual support our members give to each other. And if you look at Jesus, you can see someone who was not too interested in refuting wrong beliefs or affirming right doctrine. Jesus never explained a theory of Atonement or of Grace. What you see instead was someone who preached that God is in charge (aka the Kingdom of God) and no one is outside the love of God. When he confronted someone it was “for the hardness of their hearts” and it was invariably a leader or authority figure who was putting law above people or their own sense of righteousness above God’s search for relationship.

  • Joslyn Renfrey

    Ivana Trump, Summer Zervos, Jill Harth, Jessica Leeds, Kristin Anderson, Natasha Stoynoff, Karena Virginia,

    I should clarify that, as a lesbian, I define rape as any nonconsentual sexual activity that greatly compromises the mental wellbeing of the other party. If it makes a woman feel violated and degraded, I consider it rape.

  • Joslyn Renfrey

    Also, I dont actually vote democrat, so I don’t know why you’re bringing up Bill Clinton’s sexual assaults.

  • jekylldoc

    Fine, but Clinton was still wrong and should have left quietly after his term was over. The Clintons were only too happy to run against Barack Obama with an “only I can fix it” attitude. I agree that there is no comparison, or that the equivalence is false, but let’s face it, the bald-faced idiocy being shown by those attacking the special prosecutor is not all that far from people still unable to admit that Clinton abused women.

  • David Cohen

    “David, there is no truth to your comment.”
    – I am not sure what part of your argument is escaping you. Are you saying that you agree with the senator’s efforts to keep children from being separated form their parents? If not, do you deny that such separation is traumatizing? If you do not deny this, how can you support it while also claiming to be an advocate for children?

    “The only reason that this issue exists is for Democrat political strategy.”
    – No, the only reason this issue exists is to distract the president’s political base. There is no immigration crisis in reality.

    “My position is that they should not be here or should be returned immediately.”
    – Let’s see what you Bible has to say on that. Oh look, it says your position is wrong.

    That is not abuse.”
    – Look at the quote you provided. It does NOT refer to open borders as you suggest. It is specifically about forbidding the arbitrary separation of children from their parents. Arbitrarily separating children from their parents IS abuse, and all the dismissals in the world will not change that fact.

    “Your fight is not with the President it is with the immigration system. However, it will not get Democrats elected.”
    – And, again, we see how freely right wingers sell out their values for political expediency.

  • jekylldoc

    Quite strangely, Javier Gonzalez upvoted his own post. I have not yet figured out how to do that. Whatupp, Patheos?
    Huh! Tried it, and it worked! Well, I will never again have to suffer the indignity of having no up votes on one of my posts!

  • David Cohen

    “Grow up.”
    – He’s getting patronizing again, a sure sign he has nothing to defend his position.

    “Look it up.”
    – A favorite right wing dodge when they know they cannot defend a position.

    “Understand you are the minority and people are
    fleeing from Progressive ideas not embracing them. Where is your Blue
    – Wait and see

  • Matthew

    Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

  • jekylldoc

    Yes, thanks, I certainly consider myself a humanist as well as a Christian. And yes, I think the God of the Bible became, by the time of Jesus, a symbol of universal love and concern. I identify the self-conscious social quest for this as the Spirit of Love.

  • Joslyn Renfrey

    I just wish that they’d invest a lot more in public infastructure so our water doesn’t contain heavy metals and our power doesn’t cut out and our phone lines don’t rust away.

  • Thanks Matthew. Excellent reference. This young progressive socialist defeated the number 4 democrat, Crowley. This is a monumental problem for the Democrats. Let’s see them explain this result.

  • Joslyn, thanks for your definition. It is not an acceptable definition in this discussion. But since you feel that way I am not going to press the point. Bill Clinton will be punished for his sins as we all will.

  • jekylldoc

    Thanks for your comments. I couldn’t agree more that “Christians need to be involved in the process of making decisions about how we live together.” I think that means a certain amount of giving honor where it is due, which (in my mind) requires recognizing the helpful sides of both (and more than two) perspectives. Helping their congregants work through political issues means giving space for different congregants to reach different conclusions, and it means encouraging all sides to be reflective about the possibility of self-righteousness.

    I can’t help thinking that whenever a church body becomes “captive” to a political movement, putting partisan pursuit of power ahead of principle and faith, that we crucify Jesus all over again. This is meant as a question for self-examination, not a weapon to use against the opposition. And fortunately, God raises him up, even after we do our worst.

  • jekylldoc

    To Sam’s cogent response below, I would add: never forget that each individual is precious in the eyes of God. Including those in your congregation. If your view on a political issue becomes a barrier to you learning to relate to them, some prayer is probably in order.

  • For a person with a Jewish sur name you sure don’t live up to your heritage. The Cohen were priests. Did you skip the training?
    Hope you saw McConnell last night explaining how he is going to seat the new Justice before the midterms. Progressive judicial activism is so screwed. Worse, Ginsburg won’t last through Trump’s second term and a third strict conservative will be on the court. Notice what a difference it made to the Travel Ban but much more significant it dealt a blow to the practice of extorting money from laborers to line the democrat coffers.

  • David Cohen

    “For a person with a Jewish sur name you sure don’t live up to your heritage. The Cohen were priests. Did you skip the training?”
    – And, again we see your effort to deflect rather than address your failing position.

    “Hope you saw McConnell last night explaining how he is going to seat the new Justice before the midterms.”
    – That is how the system is supposed to work. In contrast to when Congress simply refused to vote on president Obama’s candidate for the sake of political expediency(which, again, we see is the only “virtue” which the right truly endorses.)

    “Progressive judicial activism is so screwed.”
    – The fight for human rights continues.

    “Worse, Ginsburg won’t last through Trump’s second term and a third strict conservative will be on the court.”
    – One gets used to hearing conservatives gloat. It makes it all the more charming when they abandon their previous positions when they are no longer expedient.

    “Notice what a difference it made to the Travel Ban but much more significant it dealt a blow to the practice of extorting money from laborers to line the democrat coffers.”
    – Yes, the refusal to vote on Obama’s candidate really paid off. Clearly the right’s abandoning of principles for political expediency is paying off. As I recall, Jesus asked what it profits a man if he gains the whole world but abandons his soul. But then, it seems that even your deity can be abandoned fr the sake of political expediency.

  • Matthew

    Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, and Bill de Blasio are the trend setters for the Democratic party I think. Hillary Clinton had way too much baggage and was too deep in the establishment. If Bernie had run against Trump, I think Trump would have lost the election, Bob — but that´s just my personal opinion. The Democratic party would be wise to learn from the defeat of Hillary Clinton. It is only a progressive agenda that will save the Democratic party I think. That said, I´m far away from American politics these days, but just as an observer it seems American general elections are normally too close to call — regardless of one´s party affliation.

    Bob … honestly though … it would be interesting to know a little bit about what interests you besides the Bible and conservative American politics. I´m sure there is a side to you that doesn´t want to argue all the time about these things … right? :-) :-) Breaking online bread together could be a good thing :-)

  • For such as you who complain, “again we see your effort to deflect”, I have to ask. Deflect what exactly?
    Ask a specific question and I will answer.

  • No, but I’ve Facebook-met the mother of a friend whom I’ve seen in action on both political opinions and non-political opinions. When she kept bothering me on my Facebook, but the debates we had were actually pretty lovely. A lot of the left-set online like to stereotype everyone on the right as an idiot (and given the public faces of the politicians, it’s easy to do), but she was proof that VERY intelligent people have fallen in love with Trump, too. She’d give me a run and keep my skills sharp every time and was one of those people whom I knew had the upper hand on certain issues. The straw that broke the camel’s back and got me to unfollow and unfriend her was when she had a fight (non-political) with my friend on one of my threads over how much she used to curse when traveling in the car. You see, as a good Catholic, she “never uses bad language,” except that my friend remembered that, oh, Hell yeah, she’d swear at her and her sisters on car trips and at other drivers.

    My experience tells me that EVERYONE curses when driving, so people who pretend they are angels about it are lying or have a selective, dishonest memory, but that’s beside the point, which was that MY Facebook page was NOT something I liked having as a bulletin-board for family-fights between members of a family I’m not even a part of…. the woman just WOULD NOT LET IT GO. So, yeah, I’ve had the pleasure of knowing the type.

  • Matthew

    Welcome back Bones :-)

  • Matthew

    Can you tell me — specifically — what of the 10 items listed in this post you disagree with and why you disagree?

  • Zack

    Thank you Angie.

  • njguy54

    Re. #10: You might recall the “Pray for the President” bumper stickers that popped up after 9/11 — and clearly referring to George W Bush. We had some conservative neighbors who had those stickers on all their cars. But right after Obama was elected, those stickers mysteriously and quickly disappeared. Obama must have been truly amazing if he didn’t need the nation’s prayers.

    Not surprisingly, these same cars later sported Tea Party symbols and slogans, pious calls to prayer replaced with calls for “Hillary for Prison.”

  • Angie Boom

    Again, please cite where any Democratic representative has called for OPEN BORDERS.

  • Angie Boom


    She has a witness. You know, how the bible requires there to be one to charge rape? Yeah, she has one. Now, please explain to me when Christianity replaced the words adulterer and fornicator with “playboy.”

  • Angie Boom

    Obama, obviously, but I’m not claiming partisanship. Anyone who turns a blind eye to a president’s infidelity, adultery, or RAPE because they believe he’s a good president otherwise is part of the problem.

  • Angie Boom

    He did. You didn’t. Because you can’t.

  • SamHamilton

    Well said. Thanks.

  • Aubreythecat

    It’s all liberal tears with you lot, isn’t it? It doesn’t matter how much it will screw everything up, just as long as if upsets the libs.

    It seems that Trump could do anything and you’d still support him. He’s already onto the Nuremberg stuff, threatening the freedom of the press, sicing his attack dogs onto people who have displeased him, etc.

    Get out of your bubble and try and see what it looks like from outside for once. He is not a good man.

  • Aubreythecat

    Obama never went after Christians, or had anti Christian policies. What he did – or tried to do – was to prevent Christians from forcing their views on anyone else..

  • When you refute the intent of the bill I mentioned I will continue but not until then.

  • Your huffpost cite is is silly. That is why we call it fake news. You can’t even summarize the story in the line you posted. “She has a witness.” Who may we ask is she? Who is the witness.

  • swbarnes2

    Whom are you counting as “people”?

    Do you think that African-Americans could talk about slavery and segregation and lynching in a detached manner civilly? Or maybe because racist policies deeply impact their lives, they talk about those policies like they actually matter, and aren’t just a fun academic exercise?

    Even just asking questions sparks a fire.

    “Can Jews be good German citizens? Are black people fundamentally dishonest and unintelligent and immoral? Do all gay people molest children, or just most of them? Is it really right to force an EMT to a transgendered person bleeding to death? Just asking questions, how uncivil of you to object to my questioning your basic humanity!”

  • “Rep. Keith Ellison, D-Minn., isn’t on the fringe of the Left. He is the second ranking member of the Democratic National Committee and he basically wears his immigration policy on his sleeve.” More specifically, the No. 2 Democrat wore a T-Shirt that literally said “I don’t believe in borders.”

  • Obama’s indiscretions will eventually come to light.
    If you have credible evidence that President Trump raped anyone we would love to see it. You don’t! You just repeat slander like its truth because you want to believe it.

  • The question was directed at Cohen not you.

  • swbarnes2

    My position is that they should not be here or should be returned immediately.

    So you are saying America should accept absolutely no asylum seekers.

    And “immediately” means you kick someone out without subjecting them to any kind of due process, right?

  • Thanks Matthew. Every once in a while I hear from someone who is opinionated but not confrontational.
    When I am not working or researching or reading I respond to some of Ben’s blogs. This one was unusually active.
    Although I appreciate the invitation I do not have the time at the moment.

  • Angie Boom

    So no Democratic representative has called for open borders. Glad we settled that. You can remove it from your talking points about why you hate the Democrats so much.

  • Angie Boom

    Do I care?

  • That’s not what I said.

  • Angie Boom

    So you didn’t read it, or you read it but you can’t refute it, nor will you bother to look up the many other articles about it (because they can’t ALL be fake news, now can they?) Either way, it’s part of the public record, she has filed a lawsuit against him- twice. She withdrew the lawsuit because she was receiving death threats from- guess who?- Trump henchmen. And yes, she has a witness, who saw Trump rape her when she was 13 years old. Btw, he was still married at this time, so you can definitely count this as adultery in addition to statutory rape. No amount of false Christianity wipes away the rape of a 13 year old by a grown man. He belongs in prison, but you idiots can’t bear to accept the mistake that you made supporting him so you just keep pushing on through with your heads in the sand.



    Now, at what point in time did the word playboy replace adulterer in christian circles? Cite your sources.

  • Angie Boom

    Obama has done nothing of the sort, because if he had it would have already come to light. He had people digging into every single aspect of his life looking for something to bring up, because they hated him so much. And yet, no affairs, no infidelity, no raping 13 year olds. Just a constant barrage of insults to him and his family. As for proof, see my responses above. It is a matter of public record. Choosing not to believe something doesn’t make it false.

  • Matthew

    No problem Bob … just a friendly thought and suggestion. Peace to you.

  • You don’t even know what the Democrat party is advocating do you?

  • If any of this were true it would be news and it’s not.
    Trump threatened her? This is really way out there.
    Why don’t you make a citizen’s arrest.

  • You are naive in the extreme. Not that I care but really out there.

  • Joslyn Renfrey

    why do you believe that it is not an acceptable definition?

  • Although meaningful to you it is not capable of exact definition. Such a serious crime requires a very unambiguous definition and non-subjective as well.

  • Joslyn Renfrey

    If Trump has done things to women sexually that leave them feeling violated, degraded and susceptible to post-traumatic stress, I think there’s very little effective difference between that, and rape, don’t you?

  • Angie Boom

    So obviously you have no real response, just deflect, deflect. Your reading comprehension, or lack thereof, is as Trump would say “Sad!” I feel sorry for folks like you. But not that sorry.

  • Ron McPherson

    “Trump has certainly been the most Christian president of my lifetime.”


  • Ron McPherson

    “Its just boring watching the US descend into madness.”

    Rather than ‘descending’ into madness I think we may already be there.

  • Bones

    You’re too busy researching fox news and breitbart.

  • Bones

    And your hypocrisy is there for all to see.

    When it was pointed out the gops position on Obamas candidate, all of a sudden its about deflecting.

    Morons like you have prostituted yourselves to der fuhrer and you think somehow that makes you virtuous.

  • Bones

    I’m sure people said that about hitler too.

    People like you.

  • Bones

    How about the US taking responsibility for f###ing up countries in central america eg honduras and the middle east eg syria, Palestine, yemen.

    The largest financier of oppressive regimes is washington ie Saudi Arabia, Israel, military coup in honduras

  • Bones

    Cultural marxism was a term used by nazis for a jewish conspiracy to destroy western civilisation.

    So anyone calling you that is using nazi propaganda.

  • Bones

    Mission to the gentiles, salvation through faith without works, succession of Israel, the death of the law, eating meat used in idolatry (a huge no-no)…You could also add original sin…..

  • Bones

    And hitler gave us the vw and autobahn

  • Bones

    Because bush jr was so bad.

    Obama thought he could work with the republicans.

    He found out what a mistake that was.

  • Bones

    You’re right. We’ve seen and heard this all before.

    You really missed me hey (p)rick?

  • You have no common sense. Deflect what? An article that has no substance; written entirely for the purpose of stopping the Trump campaign; that did not work. If any of it were slightly true it would be out there in the mainstream Fake News Media 24/7. But it’s not. Try to reason why it is not in the press and you might figure it out. The Media, the Elite and the Democrats hate Trump more than you do and they haven’t picked this up. Why? Think!

    Wild eyed unabated and irrational hatred of President Trump is called Trump derangement syndrome.You are a prime example. To criticize us on the right based on our complete support for the President is another symptom of this disease you exhibit. I’d say start drinking and stay inebriated for the next six years because you have it bad.

  • Bones

    Jesus was a rabbi and taught how to live in the kingdom of god which was diametrically opposed to the exclusivist religion of his day. He was also a prophet in the same mold as martin luther king. He was killed by conservatives, nationalists and the military.

    Whether he was god is irrelevant as there are billions of unsavoury characters who believed jesus was god.

    Heck they’d have me killed for typing that.

  • Bones

    Are you still looking for obamas birth certificate bob?

    You really are pathetic.

  • Bones

    You are a liar and a hypocrite. Not that we care but really out there.

  • Bones

    Given your understandng of the bible and christianity doesnt say much about your skills as a lawyer/engineer.

  • Bones

    Well done for proving that atheists are better followers of christ than supposed christians.

  • Bones


  • Bones

    The only one inciting violence is your fuhrer.

  • Bones

    Derp, its no different to how the tea party took over the republicans.

  • Bones

    You mean like how the tea party replaced all the moderate republicans.

  • Matthew

    Thanks Bones. I have had trouble with this topic for some time, though Scot McKnight helped some.

    It seems Jesus preached “kingdom” while Paul preached “justification” ???

  • otrotierra

    RickNowlinpa is an Evangelical troll account whose only existence is for spreading his frothing-at-the-mouth rage. Even he’s ashamed of his own comment history, thus the private account.

    It’s easier for him to continue knowing his fellow Disqus Evangelicals will permit such behavior, as dishonesty and hatred are acceptable in their own homes and churches. It’s all he knows. Observe:

  • otrotierra

    Evangelical authoritarianism is certainly already manifesting itself. Early stages of neo-fascism are indeed no longer hyperbole, but a material reality.

    ETA: click on my username or avatar to confirm my public 2011 Disqus account with 4,796 comments and 14,202 upvotes. And please flag and report the Evangelical bully still impersonating and harrassing me with his fraudulent private Disqus account opened June 2018.

  • Ron McPherson

    Your impersonator must secretly admire you. I told them imitation is the highest form of flattery

  • Bones

    Still waiting for (p)rick to say anything intelligent beyond how mean bones is.

  • Bones

    Sorry but i’m not joining your 3some with trump.

  • Bones

    #thingstrump said

    ‘I could shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose any voters’

  • Bones

    If only bones was single and gay….then i wouldnt have to jerk off on my computer.

  • Aubreythecat

    Yes, Liberal Tears – that’s all you’ve got. “Fake news” – like the fake news that Obama’s inauguration crowd was so much larger than his, fake news like him instituting a policy to separate children from their parents, and still having no idea – and not caring – what he’s gong to do about them now.

    Maxine Waters hasn’t threatened anyone, and Republicans loved it when some right winger did the same to Joe Biden one time.

    Trump has called the media The Enemy of the People – doesn’t that bother you, even a little bit? Your president being unable to handle any criticism and mouthing off like some pathetic tinpot dictator? Obama never did anything like that. Trump has attacked and demonised the press since long before the start of his presidency, and this is the result, and you don’t care – those liberal tears taste so sweet, don’t they? Who cares about a few journos getting wasted.

    And you still haven’t said what could count as going too far for him, so I can only assume that you will never think he’s gone too far, whatever he does.

  • Aubreythecat

    Waters has had threats – including one serious death threat – since Trump misrepresented what she said. What a piece of work he is. And you still support him.

  • Maxine Waters is under review in the House for her outrageous statements.

    There is something that our President could do to lose my support:
    He could orchestrate a plot to use the FBI and DOJ to spy on his campaign opponent in the 2020 election.

  • Sorry. Water is on tape urging confrontation which will lead to violence. Your side has already shot a Republican Congressman but it is going to get worse I fear. Even Schumer told Waters to shut up!

  • Angie Boom

    I love the extreme disconnect. A *single* Democratic representative wears a shirt that says “I (and I is a key word here) don’t believe in borders.” Response: THe DEMOcratS ARE CALLing FOR OPEN BORDERS!!!!!. 19 women can claim that Trump touched them inappropriately, walked into a room where they were naked, sexually assaulted them, and at least one credible claim of rape, with a witness to verify it. Response: FAKE NEWS FAKE NEWS FAKE NEWS WHY DO YOU HATE TRUMP MAGA FAKE NEWS!!!!1!!

    Trump lovers will be burying their faces in shame in a very short time, but we will remember who you are.

  • otrotierra

    SamHamilton has already been called out for his tactics of obfuscation, derailment, deception and false witness, bullying, and then lying in attempt to deny his well-documented behaviors. His response is to just lie and deny, lie and deny. Just watch:

  • otrotierra

    Thanks Ron. In addition to the fraudulent impersonation account, there are at least three other private accounts with different usernames who regularly cyberstalk me to spread their Evangelical brand of battery acid. They haven’t yet figured out that their well-documented behavior merely strengthens my argument about frothing-at-the-mouth evangelicals following Trump’s rage-filled gospel. Observe:

  • Joslyn Renfrey

    I mean, considering what passes for western civilisation at the moment, its getting rather difficult to justify its continued existence.

  • Joslyn Renfrey

    Is it irrational to hate sexual predators?

  • Bones


    Its bs.

  • Bones

    Yeah, I have a stalker as well.

  • Bones

    Remember Paul never read a gospel.

  • Bones

    Among the right, western civilisation =white christian.

    The same as the nazis.

  • Bones

    Bob the lawyer….


  • Bones

    Obama was accused of being a dictator because of executive orders.

    They’re ok now.

  • Bones

    Dont criticise hitler – that might be political.

    Honestly why did the prophets bother….

  • Aubreythecat

    Not violence: she said, not violence She said to ask them about taking children from their parents and putting them in cages. She’s not calling a huge section of the population “Enemies of the People.” (Doesn’t the use of those words embarrass you, even a little bit?)

    On the other hand she has had death threats: and, if you want to talk about sides, your side has killed dozens, hundreds of Americans, including many children; although Trump supporters have said the children were actors and speaking from a script and no one has got killed. This is the kind of person Trump endorses (Alex Jones, for one).

    You still haven’t said what you would consider as having gone too far.

  • Aubreythecat

    So, not colluding with Russia?

    (I know what you’re getting at there, by the way. Didn’t happen. He’s a paranoid shitehawk.)

  • It is irrational to hate someone based on the second hand information you choose to accept while disdaining anything said to the contrary.

  • Democrats have no leadership and the party is split by the Progressives: Open Borders, Raise Taxes, Impeach the President will not get democrats re-elected.

  • I did reply. If this President used his powers to spy on his opponent in the next election in order to try and defeat him and then get him impeached that would be too far. Sound familiar yet?

  • You don’t know much because you don’t accept information you don’t like. Colluding is not a crime. He didn’t collude. Where is the proof if he did?

  • Joslyn Renfrey

    Considering that the rate of false reporting of sexual assault is below 8%….
    Now considering how very very unlikely it is for all 19 reports to be coincidentally false…

    Yeah I’d say I’m pretty certain that Donald is a sexual predator. So yeah, Bob, do you think its irrational to hate sexual predators?

  • Joslyn Renfrey

    Also they seem to lack the self awareness to realize that when they try and talk about Bill Clinton as a distraction, they are using the same standards of evidence that we do when talking about Donald being accused of sexual assault. I mean, yes, we know that Bill is a sexual predator… but that doesn’t make Donald… not…? a sexual predator…?
    Nor does it erase the fact that they voted for him while remaining willfully ignorant of the claims of sexual assault against him.

  • My views are well known in Ben’s blogs: political and biblical. I hate abortion and I hate people who support it in any form.
    As far as the #MeToo movement I agree that men are the sexual predators; many politicians seem to fall into this category.

    Your question is not for me to answer. Your hatred of our President appears to me to be mostly political reinforced with the news reports of his sexual history. Maxine Waters is the democrat poster child for this kind of behavior.

  • Joslyn Renfrey

    “Your question is not for me to answer.”

    Please! Someone! Help!!
    This man is missing his vertebrae!!

    But in all seriousness Donald supports the discrimination against trans people (my kind) in healthcare, so I don’t hate him just because he’s a sexual predator, but because he compromises the continued wellbeing of people like me.


  • Ok. So you also hate him because the healthcare laws discriminate against your “kind.”
    Is this about the taxpayer paying for gender reassignment surgery? Or something else.

  • Joslyn Renfrey

    It would be absolutely wonderful if taxpayers funded surgery, buuuuuuuuut… no.

    I’m talking about hospitals being able to deny service because we’re trans, stuff like health checkups, breast cancer screening, prostate exams, cervical exams. stuff that keeps us alive.

    But I dunno, maybe you enjoy the idea of us dying and going away, considering how much horror trumplings express about GENDER PRONOUNS, our existence must be very troubling to you.

  • I doubt that service is any different. How would a hospital even know your sexual identity.
    You continue to try to provoke with claims that are not legitimate.

  • PedasiPaul

    But tjey won’t admit emplying a partisan double standard. I’d have more respect for those who could admit it instead of pretending they are being objective.

  • Extreme disconnect? This President has been under investigation by a special counsel Muller. Muller has looked at 1.5 million documents we are told. The NY Times reported Muller has looked at the Stormy claims. You want us to believe Muller missed the rape of a 13 year old with a witness?

  • Ron McPherson
  • FrankScotsman .

    I don’t understand what has caused the mass exodus of the Right from anything resembling Christianity. For the past decade the Right has clung increasingly more tightly to the Christian label while shedding any pretense of living by Christian precepts. Try having a biblical discussion with a conservative and you’ll quickly release they have absolutely no knowledge of the Bible they profess to follow. Is seems the Conservative concept of Christianity is to worship Jesus as an icon while ignoring any of his teachings.

  • rika888

    You are so right. Right-wing winged Christianity has become a cult,twisted and stretched to fit the inclusive,wealth – worshipping, racist agenda many of them follow.A belief system that Jesus would not condone according to His teachings.

  • rika888

    Where do you get this propagandist drivel? Facebook? Fox? Try Putin. Our nation,democracy and even Christianity is under threat. Please open your eyes…

  • rika888

    Sigh….you are a lost soul of you see a n admittedly weak and fractured Democratic party as worse than blatant fascism.

  • Thanks Ron. Read the articles.

  • Do I see the Democrat Party embracing socialism and communism as a bad thing? It is truly frightening.
    Our current government structure is not fascist nor is it trending there.

  • Joslyn Renfrey

    ” How would a hospital even know your sexual identity”
    Ummm… because I present as female?
    It’s, uh, pretty obvious I identify as a woman??

  • For a hospital to discriminate against a Transgender they would have to
    know that the person in front of them is a Transgender.

  • Ron McPherson

    As crazy as this may seem, I believe much of the steady drift, admittedly over time, continues to stem from a dogmatically inerrant view of scripture taught in pulpits around the country to thousands of parishioners in conservative settings.

    Many believe, and are taught, that following “the Bible” is synonymous with following Jesus. This means that the teachings of Jesus are viewed in the same light as anything else recorded in the Bible, including the OT instructions to commit genocide. To them, Jesus (as a part of the Trinity) ordered the slaughter of the Canaanites in the OT, as well as said love your enemies in the NT. So instead of looking at these events/instructions in contradiction to one another, they instead try to make them both fit, which allows their worldview to be easily manipulated to condone unloving actions against others not in their tribe. Their Christian worldview has room for biblical instructions that seem counter to Jesus’ teachings. But that’s ok because it’s in “the Bible.”

  • Ron McPherson

    For the record, the author of the Declaration of Independence (this Christian themed document lol) was Thomas Jefferson, an undisputed deist. He even created his own bible by snipping away sections of the Christian Bible he considered to be unreliable. Benjamin Franklin was a deist as well.

    “We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”

    Except for enslaved black people.

    “As well, this text references ‘the laws of nature and of nature’s God’ and closes by ‘appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world’ and noting the signers’ ‘reliance on the protection of divine Providence.’”

    There is nothing distinctively Christian at all in such generic terms as “God” or “Supreme Judge” or “Providence” (which was a common way Washington referred to God as well). Any religion with a belief in God could use those terms. And that was kinda the point.

    Today’s conservative evangelicals would find the views held by many of the founding fathers as abhorrent. Progressives are criticized for being too tolerant, yet George Washington himself was tolerant of other views (Jewish, Muslim, atheists, etc).

    John Adams was a Unitarian who some allege did not believe in the deity of Christ. James Madison, who seemed to be a deist as well and the chief author of the constitution, was a fierce proponent of the separation of church and state.

    By the way, I’m a Christian, but I think it’s important to be factual. Peace

  • Joslyn Renfrey

    A lady asking for a prostate exam or a man asking for a cervical exam is pretty obviously trans. Ditto for women and men who still have M or F respectively on their birth certificate, and there are others like myself who are pretty open about being trans.

    It’s… really… not hard? at all? to understand how hospitals can find out people are trans.

  • Aubreythecat

    The Billy Bunter defence – “I didn’t do it and it doesn’t matter if I did because it’s not illegal – yaa!”. Also the Donald Trump defence. There is plenty of evidence, though Trumpites either ignore it, or accuse everyone else of doing it. The investigation already has 17 indictments and 5 guilty pleas, or people high up in the Trump organisation, which is pretty good going for something with no evidence and not illegal anyway: and why won’t Trump release his tax returns, as he has promised to do so many times? What is he hiding?

  • Aubreythecat

    I know what you’re getting at, and I didn’t think it was worth a comment – another Trump defence, isn’t it? Accuse your opponent of the thing that you’ve done yourself. And when there is an investigation into that and nothing found (except Trump’s accusation) you’ll just say there was a cover-up, yes? You’re just doing what all Trump supporters do. Not an original thought in your head.

    Do you think the media is the Enemy of the People? And don’t you think that was an unfortunate phrase to use, what with its association with dictator types?

  • The soft coup executed by the Obama administration to try and stop Trump then to try and hobble his administration has been uncovered and the fumigation is under way: Andrew McCabe, Peter Strzok, Lisa Page, James Comey, James Rybicki; James Baker; Mike Kortan, David Laufman. Next up: Clapper, Brennan, Rosenstein, Rhodes and Power.

  • The soft coup executed by the Obama administration to try and stop Trump then to try and hobble his administration has been uncovered and the fumigation is under way: Andrew McCabe, Peter Strzok, Lisa Page, James Comey, James Rybicki; James Baker; Mike Kortan, David Laufman. Next up: Clapper, Brennan, Rosenstein, Rhodes and Power.

    The Media is the reason you don’t know many of the names above. The Media has decided to destroy Trump because he has shown them for what they are. The major Media outlets are the Enemy of the People: CNN, MSNBC, Washington Post, et. al. But there power has been checked. This President is not intimidated by them. Your comment indicates you believe the scheme. People with your understanding obviously do “Not (have) an original thought in your head.”

  • Aubreythecat

    You’ll have to be de-toxified when Trump’s finally out.

    “Soft coup” ffs. Trump has broken the law. He is trying to take your country into totalitarianism. And you don’t care.

  • Maria White

    And once again, someone actually beleiveing the words of a blatant liar that only 3% came back when it was actually over 75%! Do you really only listen and tryuly believe what Trump says? He lies every singel day because he knows people like you will not fact check his statements but will spread the lies.

  • Thanks to the person who mentioned #WalkAway. This is truly amazing to see Democrats flee their out of control party. If you know of a similar movement on our side please let me know.

  • Matthew

    I have heard that there was stuff going on at the DNC that prevented Bernie from actually winning the nomination … I´ll admit, though, I cannot know for certain.

    You may be right … I may be crazy … why do you think Bernie didn´t get the nod??

  • Matthew

    Thanks so much. Some good points.

    What do you think about progressivism in the U.S.? Is it about to take off, is it dead in the water … somewhere in the middle?

  • Ron McPherson

    In my opinion, if everything in the Bible was filtered through Jesus’ greatest commandment to love God and neighbor, and to actually live it, the hypocrisy of cherry picking scripture would go away.

  • Ron McPherson


  • Ron McPherson

    I’ve interacted with atheists that seem far more Christlike than many professing Christians lol

  • Ellen D.

    What caused the mass exodus of the right from their Christian values? Two words: Fox. News.

    Mystery solved.

  • Bones

    Because evangelicals like bs.

    They eat it up.

  • Bones

    Thats not how it works.

    Trumps policies were build a wall, something about abortion and mexicans.

  • Bones

    He did by letting gays marry.

    Governments went after christians too when they stopped torturing gay people.

  • Bones

    Lol obama wasnt even a leftist.

  • Joslyn Renfrey

    shhhh! they’re not supposed to know about that.

  • joejmz

    Nice strawman.

  • Ron McPherson

    For years I was taught that the Roman Empire “collapsed within because of homosexuality” lol. Many conservative evangelicals fear the U.S. will suffer judgment like Sodom and they may be right, but not for the reasons they think. How ironic would that be?

    Ezekiel 16:49 “See here–this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters had majesty, abundance of food, and enjoyed carefree ease, but they did not help the poor and needy.”

  • Matthew

    Interesting … you agree with me, but Bald Humanist does not. I wonder what the state of progressivism in the U.S. really is? On the brink of of a breakout, or simply a dream …

  • Bones

    This from the person who admires the liar mocking someone else.

    Spare us your empty sanctimonious bs.

    That’s no surprise and par for the course.

    And those famous words ring to the hypocrites “physician, heal thyself!”

    Good to see the grip of your cult further loosened in Ireland.

  • IntelligentAmericansResearchit

    We don’t know if that has been pulled into the investigation, yet. You should go read the depositions taken for the incident you mention. The 3 girls involved, now all adults, are pretty credible. The stories match and the even the 18 yo girl who was tasked with bringing the children into the orgy gave the same story. It’s a shame that death threats and greed forced them all to back off and go underground.

  • I should read the depositions? Law enforcement should act if there has been a crime. Such an allegation would not be ignored. If the media can get itself into a frenzy over Stormy imagine what they would do if this were credible? So it’s not.

  • Ron McPherson

    I’ve been a Christian for umpteen years. Still am, though often not a very good one. I had anxiety issues (though hid it) for decades. I thought I was somehow deficient in my faith. Avoided getting on meds. Finally gritted my teeth and got on an SSI. Makes all the difference in the world.

  • moe szyslak


  • PedasiPaul

    OK so adultery no longer defines character the way evangelicals once said it did when Ralph Reed insisted “character counts” in the oval office while supporting Clinton’s impeachment. How about truth-telling? Does that count in your definition of character? How about how one treats others? Does that count?

  • Bones

    Try numbers 5 derpy.

    Lol the hypocrite is the one who worships the serial adulterer.

    I bet you like porn like he does.

  • How strange, you challenged me to find a verse which says giving your money to the government to feed the poor is bad, and then changed it to the government taking your money and left off the part about feeding the poor in favor of reframing it as redistribution.

    Then, having just changed the criteria, you accuse me of not knowing the difference between things.


  • I don’t think bowing in a social situation is inherently bad.

    I do think going out of one’s way to praise a dictator is bad, especially if you cap it off with implications that you’d really like to be one someday, say by suggesting we stop having elections, or by following up comments about how murdering journalists is good with calling journalists the enemy of the people.

  • Your characterizations are askew. What do Evangelicals have to do with politics? Answer nothing more or less than any other group with views. What do Evangelicals have to do with people on this site? Answer they are the objects of hatred because they interpret the bible conservatively not liberally. Do Liberals judge Conservatives falsely – all the time. It’s like blood sport.

    Truth telling from a public official is not straightforward. You are not the judge of the President’s comments you just think you are. The President tweets to avoid the Fake News filters and you say he is lying based on what you here and how you hear it. But if you have two Lies you’d care to explore I’d love to see them. Here is an example from Obama: If you like you Plan you can keep it; if you like your Doctor you can keep him. This was judged to be the Lie of the Year by the media.

    You are certainly not the judge of his actions because you don’t even understand them.
    A good example of treating others is the current faux outrage over immigration which is a manufactured crisis designed to make the President look bad so you think you can judge him.Trump hates brown children so he can go to hell, etc, etc. This is the Left searching for anything to stick to Trump because the are now in a panic over the mid-terms. It is not about the brown children but about democrat return to power. You just don’t get it.

  • And you are saying that the same observation is not true of the Liberals? You won’t find that by reading in this blog will you.

  • Questioning

    Zooming out a little further, he seems to have 3 basic policies:

    1) keep his base fearful and fired up
    2) do/say anything that might give him the appearance of doing/saying anything and/or achieve number 1
    3) undo anything Obama did

    It seems, basically that is all he has to do to keep the Trumpettes in tune.

  • PedasiPaul

    So you really think Trump cinsistemtly tells the truth? Do you believe him when he claims he never had an affair with Stormy Daniels, to whom he paid $130,000 a few days before the election? Do you think a man who didn’t have have sex would nonetheless pay her to keep quiet about what never happened? It would be paying extortion, right? If you believe the guy you call a playboy.

  • You can’t read. I asked you for two Trump lies.
    Stormy is the best you can do? That’s he said – she said at best. What does Stormy have to do with anything at the end of the day? Nothing really. Whatever he and she did it is none of our business. If people decided not to vote for Trump based on Stormy so be it. Why is this germane to your hate?

  • Ellen D.

    So you’re saying basically that God gave you the authority to determine what makes a good Christian.

    Typical arrogant older white* male, you’re absolutely sure that God thinks just the way you do.

    *because of course you are

  • Ellen D.

    Bugger off, asshole.

  • Bones

    Negativity is a big winner. We’re seeing it all around the world. You dont need policies when you just keep repeating sound bytes.

    People seem to forget about trump’s past eg it was him who led the birther lies.

  • Obscurely

    May we hear your specific reasons for thinking that, please?

  • PedasiPaul

    You asked for two examples; I am doing one at a time. I asked if you believed Trump’s denials re Stormy, and you chose not to answer my question. Could it be because you suspect he is lying but don’t want to admit it?

  • PedasiPaul

    Here is my question: Do you honestly believe that statement is true?
    □ □

  • PedasiPaul

    Here’s some bonus lies:
    * Trump claims he had the biggest inauguration crowd in history.
    * Trump claims Obama had wiretapped Trump tower during the campaign.
    * The US has a record high murder rate.

    You can either dodge, deflect, and blame the “fake news,” or you can admit the obvious about Trump’s casual approach to the truth. My guess is you’ll keep doing the former so you can keep up the belief he is a man of character.

  • I don’t know who is lying. How would I?

  • Yes I do. Why would I not?
    The self-interest of Kim is to survive and rule not to be destroyed or taken out of power.
    but if by some chance Kim launches an ICBM with a nuclear tipped war head that detonates over your city then I will stand corrected.

  • Here’s an update bonus for you:
    Trump was “wiretapped” as he said. This whole story has been laid out. Do I have to believe you don’t understand what Obama did?

  • Obscurely

    Lisa, if you don’t mind some free advice that’s probably already occurred to you, my experience as someone who has pastored several small-town rural churches is that (depending on your denomination) you may have to choose between being a prophet and making a living? or maybe (depending on the congregation) after first winning their trust and love after a year or two, a church could more easily accept your prophetic teaching and preaching? Keeping a balance between “comforting the afflicted” and “afflicting the comfortable” (as the old saying goes) is something you’ll learn on the job — and may never be quite satisfied with! :(

  • Obscurely

    What’s wrong with being afraid of death? especially if you don’t think there’s anything after that?

  • Obscurely

    In a recent Atlantic magazine essay, Michael Gerson described the damage white evangelical support for Trump has done to both the nation and the church — here’s a link and a powerful quote from it below …


    “Democracy is not merely a set of procedures. It has a moral structure. The values we celebrate or stigmatize eventually influence the character of our people and polity. Democracy does not insist on perfect virtue from its leaders. But there is a set of values that lends authority to power: empathy, honesty, integrity, and self-restraint. And the legitimation of cruelty, prejudice, falsehood, and corruption is the kind of thing, one would think, that religious people were born to oppose, not bless. This disfigurement of evangelical faith squanders the reputation of something valuable…. At its best, faith is the overflow of gratitude, the attempt to live as if we are loved, the fragile hope for something better on the other side of pain and death. And this feather of grace weighs more in the balance than any political gain.” (Michael Gerson)

  • Obscurely

    Here’s a very instructive debate (moderated by NY Times columnist Ross Douthat) between evangelical leaders who disagree on support for Trump — well worth reading if you want to understand how so many (white) evangelical Christians can support someone who (in my view as a pastor) daily demonstrates his moral unfitness for office …


  • Typical childish tantrum.

  • PedasiPaul

    I don’t expect certainty. But we all deal in probabilities. Except you when it comes to Trump

  • Another Liberal trait: disparage the character of a person whom they dislike based on probability when they are setting the odds. This is why Progressives are done for the next two election cycles: #WalkAway

  • Despite the new SCOTUS and whatever happens to Roe V Wade, we will see Evangelical Christianity collapse and it might happen very soon, unfortunately it might take all of Christianity down with it. Because these people are so loud and in front when people hear the word CHRISTIAN, they think of these assclowns. fact that they cling to Trump and are even supporting a political campaign of a Legal Brothel Owner in Nevada shows that they are in decline. It is why they are so rushing this new court nominee they know time is running out. Their base and leadership is getting older and young adults are not exactly joining up rather are leaving religion in droves. That is a sure sign of impending doom.

    The declines are slow bit the collapse is fast and sudden. Rome, USSR, Ringling Bros, Sign of the Beef Carver on Mich Ave in Dearborn MI all saw years of steady decline and then one day it all crumbled. Before the USSR collapsed we had the coup against Gorbachev as the old guard made one last gasp for power, but the youth under Yeltsin rose up and shut it down. We may see the youth shut these people down. I am seeing signs that they are active and engaged, March for our Lives and other grassroots voter drives are popping up. We say in NY Oscasio-Cortez taking out a establishment Democrat, she has BOTH parties scared.

  • E Hakenson

    HOw conveniently you’ve forgotten that there is recipe for abortion in the Bible. And that god drowned the whole world. Killed the 1st born of Egypt. Do you remember that Jesus threw out the money changers? Told his followers to give away money?

  • E Hakenson

    Again, god drowned the whole world because he thought humanity was inconvenient. GEt a vasectomy.

  • E Hakenson

    YOur Jesus is a miserable person.

  • PedasiPaul

    ” US intelligence officials told reporters at ABC News on Friday that North Korea has continued to make fuel for nuclear bombs despite a claimed suspension of testing.

    “Thanks to private satellite imagery, independent weapons analysts have also been able to confirm that North Korea is expanding test sites—not destroying them. Non-proliferation analysts at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies have tracked on-going work at factories that will make rocket engines for nuclear-tipped missiles that could reach the United States.”

  • PedasiPaul

    The FBI says they did not wiretap Trump Tower. What evudence do you have that the FBI is lying?

  • PedasiPaul

    Bill Clinton denies raping Juanita Broderick. I assume you have no opinion about that either, right? After all, how would you know who is lyimg?

  • Obscurely

    So you’re OK now with evangelicals taking comfort from whatever they chose like any other free citizen? because you were agreeing with a comment that said doing that was “bs” …

  • Bones

    Look its no different when evangelicals cheered bush into iraq.

    These people will never acknowledge they are wrong.

  • Bones

    So thats why you supported a serial adulterer…

    Btw hitler was an anti-abortionist.

    Look at how good a christian he was.

  • Bones

    In my house, everyone shares the bathroom…..

    Obviously your god is unhappy about that.

    That actually says a lot about you.

    Btw human life was inconvenient to god in the old testament..

    In fact its inconvenient to you too if they’re not white american.

  • Bones

    Yeah let us know about that kool aid…..

  • Bones

    I dont see any questions here.

    Just idiotic statements about bathrooms.

  • Bones

    Why is your jesus obsessed with bathrooms?

    Bathrooms were actually open to everyone in jesus’s time. Women , men, children went to the toilets together.

    Biblical Toilets, New Testament


    Once again someone is equating western cultural norms with christianity.

    And they’ve made god in their own image.

  • Bones

    “Your God is your ideology “…
    That’s you there derpy.

    Jesus was not a right wing conservative.

  • Bones

    What do you think Caesar did with his taxes?
    Paid vast armies to expand his empire.

    Well at least he didnt spend it helping poor people.

    God wouldnt want that!

  • Ron McPherson

    “What do you think Caesar did with his taxes? Paid vast armies to expand his empire. Well at least he didnt spend it helping poor people.”

    LOL. Exactly. And how ironic. To conservative evangelicals around here, taxation to spend billions on bombs is somehow ok, but taxation to spend on social programs is not.

  • Ellen D.

    I wonder how many abortions Donald was personally responsible for, because given his habits it’s pretty much a given the number is non-zero.

  • Ellen D.

    Ah but the insulting comment that precipitated my angry response gets a pass from you. Thanks for indentifying yourself as another asshole, into the “blocked” dustbin you go, along with all the other dim-witted, arrogant older white male bullies, it just sucks for you because I know how much y’all hate to be ignored, how it enrages you. Enjoy your rage, I’ll be enjoying my peace and quiet.

    Buh-bye, Bob.

  • Obscurely

    Ditto for the vulgar con man they’re supporting now …

  • You are hardly in a position to make that statement. Even so experts disagree. #WalkAway

    If North Korea is denuclearizing, why is it expanding a nuclear research center?
    Satellite photos show work continuing at a North Korean nuclear research center, and experts disagree on whether it means the regime is not denuclearizing.
    by Ken Dilanian and Courtney Kube / Jun.27.2018 / 1:23 PM ET

  • You’re either a liar or an idiot. #WalkAway is yet another Twitter psyop linked to Russian botnets.

  • SamHamilton

    Thank you, this was, as you say, very instructive. It’s important to try and understand where people are coming from rather than deal in caricatures. Only by listening to them and understanding them can we address their concerns directly and hopefully persuade them.

  • Obscurely

    Cool — the ultimate humanist creed in my book is, “Live and let live”!

  • PedasiPaul

    So you disagree with the US intelligence officials cited in my article?

  • The best thing I found on this site came from another response mentioning #WalkAway. I have been wondering why Liberals do not seem to leave the Democrat party. Based on everything you said you would think many Democrats would leave; now I see they are.

  • JCF

    There was never all that much difference between Christianism and “Trumpianity”. Except maybe “Grab Them by the P*ssy”. That’s a pretty bitter bill for the Christianists, but once swallowed is pretty quickly forgotten. Now, the Christianists are all in for Trump: “God’s Anointed.”


  • Ron McPherson

    “Once again someone is equating western cultural norms with christianity. And they’ve made god in their own image.”


  • Ficino

    You are a Russian troll?

  • Steven Smith

    I recently saw a social media question that asked “What is one of the hardest lessons life has taught you?” My answer? Religion doesn’t make people better.

  • Ignatz

    “What about the left’s love for abortion. I guess that is in the Bible and I just missed it.”

    No, you didn’t miss it. It’s not there. The Bible doesn’t say a word about abortion.

    In fact, I remember when evangelicals considered it one more “extra-Biblical” Catholic tradition.

  • Ignatz

    “Where in the Bible does it say give your money to the government so they can distribute to the poor??”

    The Mosaic law was a CIVIL law, and it mandates giving to the poor. Legally.

    Let’s return to Biblical economics.

    1) Cancel all debt every 7 years. (Deuteronomy 15:1)

    2) Return all land to the original owners every 50 years (Leviticus 25:13)

    3) Allow the poor to take food from owners’ fields (Leviticus 19:9-10)

    4) Make lending money at interest illegal (Leviticus 25:36)

    “At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts.” – Deuteronomy 15:1

    “The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine.” – Leviticus 25:23

    “When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the foreigner. I am the Lord your God.” – Leviticus 19:9-10

    “If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and are unable to support themselves among you, help them as you would a foreigner and stranger, so they can continue to live among you. Do not take interest or any profit from them, but fear your God, so that they may continue to live among you. You must not lend them money at interest or sell them food at a profit.” – Leviticus 25:35-37

    “Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt.” – Exodus 22:21

    “The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.” – Leviticus 19:34

  • Your analysis is self-serving and delusional. The new Justice will make it impossible for Progressives to legislate from the bench but the court will not overturn Roe as our society continues it downhill path to destruction. No one is clinging to Trump. We are just astonished at how fast he is fulfilling his campaign promises. And here is the big take away. It is the Liberal/Progressive base that is eroding in front of your eyes; #WalkAway.

  • Powerful quote? Moral Structure? Here are the attributes of the Left which ruins everything it touches: Abortion, Open Borders, Confrontation, Socialism, Grace as License to Sin. Without Evangelicals this country would already be hell on earth.

  • Our Great Country is the model for giving and helping. No country on earth is better. Your comments are not explained just listed verses.

  • The bible has much to say about abortion. God considers the life He created in the womb as sacred and precious.
    Jeremiah 1:5. He commands us not to kill. Where does the definition of when life begins come from – a man. God does not agree. Because Liberal/Progressive thought is skewed you consider taking a life the same as swatting a fly.

  • Ignatz

    “Jeremiah 1:5. He commands us not to kill.”

    And yet there is a lot of killing in the Bible that is NOT condemned. So obviously, it’s not ALL killing.

    And abortion was common. You’d think it would be mention specifically. It’s not.

  • Ignatz

    “Our Great Country is the model for giving and helping.”

    No – we used to be. We are now one of the greediest, most selfish nations on the face of the earth.

  • njguy54

    Such regret would require a level of honesty and introspection that I don’t believe conservatives and evangelicals of this ilk have. More likely, they’ll blame liberals, the “deep state” and the “fake news” media for Trump’s failures. And no matter what, Trump will go to his grave convinced he was the Greatest President Ever and that he truly Made America Great Again.

  • PedasiPaul

    So you believe that Kim is a rational actor who can be deterred by the threat of nuclear destruction? Didn’t that threat exist prior to Trump being President? If so, how can he claim credit for it, in saying the threat “no longer” exists? BTW, word out of NK today indicates they aren’t ready for complete and permanent denuclearization after all.

  • So what killing is not condemned today?

  • IntelligentAmericansResearchit

    You cannot force these woman to risk their lives, and the lives of their family and friends. They apparently felt threatened enough to assume a new life and try to live with their trauma. Without their cooperation and testimony, the case is dead in the water.

  • Case from 1994. Lisa Bloom their attorney paid money to women willing to accuse Trump of sexual crimes . Case brought before election, June 20, to try and damage Trump campaign. Strategy failed.

    “On 15 December 2017, The Hill, a web site devoted to Capitol Hill news and commentary, posted an article reporting that prominent Los Angeles-based women’s rights attorney Lisa Bloom had offered money to women who were considering going public with accusations against President Donald Trump regarding sexual harassment and assault:”

  • The single democrat talks for the DNC and thus for you.
    “The deputy chairman of the Democratic National Committee wore a T-shirt which urged opposition to national borders around the United States, as he walked in a May Day parade in Minneapolis, Minn.”
    Soon “you” will be marganilized into the dust bin of history: #WalkAway

  • I think I would be embarrassed to be Bill Clinton on the personal side. He did, however, govern more in the Center; a lesson Obama failed to learn. The women who accuse Bill Clinton are all on record with details and substance. Do you deny Clinton is a serial sexual pervert?

  • Kim is coherent enough to stay in power.
    He can only be swayed by threats to his power and control.
    Trump can have Kim neutralized in many ways without dropping a bomb on him.
    Each President has had his turn at bat; now Trump is up but it is the bottom of the 9th.
    The problem with Liberals is that they would rather see Trump fail than let Trump get credit for solving this problem.
    Liberals are just about finished due to the Progressives. #WalkAway.

  • Obscurely

    So Jesus was a Republican?? actually he was much closer to being a socialist — free healing/health care for all, the rich give up all they have for the poor, etc. The article was an evangelical’s prophetic call for evangelicals to return to the faith they once graced and blessed America with — and can do again only if they abandon their false political idols …

  • im not walking away

  • Bones

    Lol…the US is one of the most backwards countries in the West.

    It also is responsible for arming oppressive regimes.

  • Bones


    You really are deluded if you think the democrat party (the party which actually got more votes) will be consigned to history.

    You could say the same about the republicans once trump has finished using it as his personal plaything.

  • PedasiPaul

    I have never been a defender of Bill Clinton, and I didn’t vote for him. In fact, I agreed with Ralph Reed in 1998 when he said, referring to Clinton’s affairs, that “character counts” in the White House. I suspect you agreed with Reed too. I still believe that, while you tell me serial adultery doesn’t tell us much about character.
    Let’s contrast your certitude about Clinton’s sexual offenses with your agnosticism about The Donald’s. There are about 15 women describing sexual harassment or assault, yet you assume there’s no there there. You apparently can’t see your partisan double standard..

  • There is a big difference. Clinton’s accusers persisted over the years trying to get justice. They are on the record, on the camera and have been thoroughly vetted. Hannity interviewed all of them on his radio and TV show. They have documented the time, dates, places, and conduct. Even his consensual partners are on record like Flowers who says she had a twelve year affair with him. Character? He is also the mastermind of the Clinton Global initiative that took in hundreds of million of dollars by selling access to Hillary when she was Secretary of State. Will Bill and Hillary pay for their crimes? That is yet to be determined. Now that the democrat party has deserted them it is possible.

    Trumps’s accusers so far were just inventions of the Left hoping to derail his election. Where are any of the now? What about the lady who claimed Trump tried to feel her up on an airplane while an eyewitness said it was not true. Where is the 13 year old girl who claims she was raped. Attorney Lisa Bloom has paid women to come forward and claim sexual conduct. How is this even remotely credible.

  • PedasiPaul

    Bob, are you really so cynical that you assume I would rather have a nuclear armed NK than see Trump succeed? Unlike conservatives who refused to give Obama any credit, I believe in giving credit where it’s due. Can you agree that Trump’s proclamation about the NK nuclear threat being over was just a tad premature?

    In other words, he hasn’t yet achieved the disarmamemt. When and if he does achieve it, however, I promise to praise him on this forum. Fair enough?

    Speaking of fairness, can you name 3 Obama achievments? (Actual achievements, not negative things like fooling a majority of voters in 2 elections)

  • Most on this site would rather see the Pope executed than give Trump any credit; they are completely deluded.
    Why should I want to agree that what Trump said is premature; he is negotiating not us and what he does works.
    I can name three: Obama got Health Care legislation passed, received the Nobel Peace Prize and Bin Laden was killed on his watch.

  • Kevin R. Cross

    Wars, the Christian Right seems to love those. Also judicial executions.

  • Kevin R. Cross

    You made no questions, just stupid statements.

  • Kevin R. Cross

    Given the only bathrooms around were Roman and unisex, I strongly suspect Iesos of Nazareth would reprimand you for spending so much time on an irrelevancy.

  • Yes. We go to bed and pray for wars every night.

  • So does this mean I won’t hear from you again?

  • Thanks Eva. It is nice to hear from someone normal once in a while.

  • PedasiPaul

    == what he does works ==

    I’d say that judgment is a tad premature as far as NK disarmament goes. If and when it actualy happens, I will give Trump credit. On the other hand, what would it take for you to admit that it didn’t work?

  • Agree. If it doesn’t work it will be self evident for all to see.

  • Kevin R. Cross

    Yet, when the opportunity comes, it is not the Christian Right protesting in the streets.

  • If you have a point please make it.

  • Kevin R. Cross

    Oh, I think you get my point quite well. The sheer hypocrisy of the Christian Right is plain for all to see.

  • Kevin R. Cross

    Seeing as you have no verses to support your point, why would we bother? Reality is more compelling.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    a very good article I am amazed at how many Christians have no problem following an anti-Christ and that all he needed to do is to promise them that all of their bigoted notions would be made law.

  • Your three cryptic responses:
    “Wars, the Christian Right seems to love those. Also judicial executions.”
    “Yet, when the opportunity comes, it is not the Christian Right protesting in the streets.”
    “Oh, I think you get my point quite well. The sheer hypocrisy of the Christian Right is plain for all to see.”

    You seem to be worried about the “Christian Right.” Here is a definition I found online:

    In the United States, the Christian right is an informal coalition formed around a core of evangelical Protestants and Roman Catholics.[2][3][4] The Christian right draws additional support from politically conservative mainline Protestants, Jews, and Mormons.[2][5] The movement has its roots in American politics going back as far as the 1940s and has been especially influential since the 1970s.[6][7] Its influence draws, in part, from grassroots activism as well as from focus on social issues and from the ability to motivate the electorate around those issues.[8] The Christian right is notable today for advancing socially conservative positions on issues including school prayer, intelligent design, embryonic stem cell research,[9] homosexuality,[10] euthanasia, contraception, abortion,[11] and pornography.[12] Although the term Christian right is most commonly associated with politics in the United States, similar Christian conservative groups can be found in the political cultures of other Christian-majority nations.

    Is this the group that you cite as hypocritical? If so how so.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    how fast? Let’s see. No wall paid for by mexico. No healthcare that is better than the ACA. No infrastructure plan, failure to get North Korea to do anything, still working with Russia and doin their bidding, starting pointless trade wars. A tax giveaway that helped no one but the wealthy. Bob, you are a fool.

  • No. Back at you.
    Tell us if you can what Trump is doing for the benefit of Russia?

  • Obscurely

    Good to know you don’t dispute all the other bad stuff Trump is doing/not doing — also, have you heard of our First Amendment right to criticize our (corrupt) leaders?

  • Jane Ravenswood

    trying to destroy NATO, attacking our allies, ignoring that it invaded a sovereign nation, repeatedly saying how great Putin is. The poor little fellow has a thing for murderous dictators. Now, Bob, how is it following someone that your bible says is evil. He is an adulterer who should be stoned to death per your bible. he cheats employees which your god says is wrong, He is a self admittted sexual abuser, he claims that wannabee nazis are “fine people”, he does his best to harm the poor and the sick. He has no idea what the bible says at all. And you idiots follow him. Thanks for showing that you have no more respect for your bible than I do.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    now, it’s great that you didn’t object to any of the failures your idiot president has done.

  • Your political comments are just Democrat talking points.
    Your biblical comments do show your lack of understanding. Stoning adulterers?
    Lack of respect for the bible is problematic. Disagreeing with what is says is different than lack of respect. A book that has more published copies than any book in history must be considered by religious and non-religious. Failure to recognize that shows your lack of judgment in these matters.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    And those points are true. Your president is a failure and works with Russia. Nice to see you not be able to rebut one of them.

    Wow, one more Christian who has no idea what his bible says. Leviticus 20:10 If a man commits adultery with the wife of[a] his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death. 11 The man who lies with his father’s wife has uncovered his father’s nakedness; both of them shall be put to death; their blood is upon them. 12 If a man lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall be put to death; they have committed perversion, their blood is upon them. 13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them. 14 If a man takes a wife and her mother also, it is depravity; they shall be burned to death, both he and they, that there may be no depravity among you. 15 If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he shall be put to death; and you shall kill the animal. 16 If a woman approaches any animal and has sexual relations with it, you shall kill the woman and the animal; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them. Good for you!
    It’s hilarious that you want to claim that since the bible’s been published more, it should be considered magical. How many are laying disused in hotels? How many have been bought by Christians to give out and then they are just thrown away? And it’s great to see a Christian defend an anti-christ. And since the Qu’ran or heck, Scientology have been published many many times, per your idiotic claim, they should be respected too. How silly.

    Now, I expect you’ll whine and say you don’t have to follow these laws. However, JC himself says you do, and funny how hateful people like you run to the Old Testment to back up your nonsense.

  • You made no points. You are not even as good as the bad pundits on CNN. “Destroy NATO” is something you would expect from a child or a Liberal on a temper tantrum. Which is it?
    You quote Leviticus. Those are laws that governed Israel when they were ruled by a King. Lucky for you that they are not in force in this country. You can’t read either. Magical? Get some glasses.
    So to summarize you hate Conservatives and the Bible and God; typical of many Liberals. How does this make you better than everyone else?

  • Kevin R. Cross

    The problem is not the positions they champion (everyone is entitled to their own points of view, after all) but the actions and words they use to support such. The very same activists who continuously attack euthanasia and abortion, often citing such biblical justifications as the Commandment “Thou shalt not kill”, tend to be conspicuous by their absence when there are protests over a death penalty, and even appearing positive and pro when a war comes along. The Christian right leadership, over and again, is shown to be engaging in extra-marital affairs, consumption of pornography, and/or homosexual activities at the same time as they rail against such activities. And more to the point on a political aspect, we have had a morally upstanding, actively christian President who has been faithful to his wife and family, followed by a decidedly non-christian, morally questionable, affair-loving cretin. The Christian Right’s response has been to vilify the first, attempting to deny his christianity and his Americaness, and to embrace the latter, entirely overlooking all of the actual facts of the matter – thus indicating, at least to me, that the Christian Right has and wants nothing to do with Christianity, morality, or truth, but is solely interested in power for it’s own sake and the ability to enforce their views on others.
    Which, when you compare it to their stated goals, is about as hypocritical as you get.

  • Bones


    What a wonderful witness to your religion you are.

  • Bones


    Are we sharing cubicles now are we?

    What a complete moron.

    Btw in Jesus’s day they did

  • Bones

    What questions are those derpy?

    I dont see any questions but sooks about people using bathrooms.

  • Bones

    What does any of that have to do with your nonsense about people using bathrooms?

    Johnny would rather his money be spent on christian things, like invading other countries.

  • Pennybird

    Welp, St. Reagan the Pure said it first: God is a Republican.

  • Pennybird
  • Pennybird

    Change the channel, Bob. There’s a few news items fox keeps forgetting to report.

  • Pennybird

    The blue wave tidal wave is on its way and is going to make it pretty hard to #walkaway.

  • Thanks for the more complete response. Politicians are hypocrites by profession. Political critique is blood sport. But killing an unborn baby is horrific. That a nation would allow this conduct is unbelievable. While personal sexual sins are regrettable their punishment is directed to the individual committing them.
    “..that the Christian Right has and wants nothing to do with Christianity, morality, or truth, but is solely interested in power for it’s own sake and the ability to enforce their views on others.” Is this not descriptive of the Progressive Left. How are they any different?

  • Pennybird

    They’ve always used Christianity as cover for conservatism. Why, though, I don’t understand either. Maybe they think it gives them more weight?

  • Pennybird

    Liberals don’t love abortion anymore than they love open heart surgery and chemotherapy. A needed medical procedure is just that, like it or not.
    But please save us your adoration of the unborn while you promote politicians who hold so much of humanity in contempt. It’s disingenuous and we all see the hypocrisy.

  • Jesusisdemocrat

    Then what was your point

  • Jesusisdemocrat

    Those pics are of young people coming into the US without their parents. The Trump admin made the separation policy in April to separate to “discourage” immigration.

  • Jesusisdemocrat

    Seems recent events might show yoy what most know already

  • Jesusisdemocrat

    You are joking, right?!

  • Jesusisdemocrat

    Dear God! You ARE joking, right?!

  • You need to keep up. The story is out only you apparently don’t know about it. Just keep watching as the various players are fired, dismissed and referred for criminal investigation.

  • Pennybird

    It’s less about abortion per se than about women making their own choices. One solution that liberals always advocate is preventing unwanted pregnancies in the first place, but as you know Evangelicals and other unthinking Republicans will have none of it. Because it isn’t about abortion for them either.

  • Kevin R. Cross

    The power players on the left probably do want power in itself – I don’t think you get into modern politics without at least some of that – but what sins they do commit are in line with their stated goals and affiliations. I can much more easily believe they actually mean what they say as to the direction they want to take our country and our society, a belief I no longer possess in the Christian Right. I don’t entirely agree with their positions in many cases, but they honestly HAVE positions. The Christian Right would, I strongly believe, do a 180 degree turn and support abortion if it would give them one more term in office.

  • Kevin R. Cross

    Except that the reality is that first, not everyone agrees with you regarding abortion, and second, criminalizing abortion would be entirely pointless.
    Simply put, I see absolutely nothing wrong with a woman having an abortion, because I reject outright the idea that a developing fetus is a human being, and because I consider bodily sanctity – the right to decide the use to which your body is put – as a near-absolute right. Given that, I see no reason I should be subject to any purely moral law you might bring – your moral code means nothing at all to me.
    And, in those cases where abortion was criminalized, numbers of abortions did not decline. Numbers of women dying from botched procedures by unqualified operators skyrocketed, though.
    I do advocate for abortion, because I do not see any other moral choice.

  • Pennybird

    1. NOYB. It’s her body, her privacy, her choice and not her lawmaker’s.

    2. You tell me then, are they unthinking or evil: “if they close the largest provider of contraception in the area, abortion won’t happen.”

    “Let’s save her baby then let’s call her an irresponsible slut when she needs help and deny them social services, healthcare and quality education. And in 18 years we can send the little blighter off to fight wars for commerce.”

  • Jesusisdemocrat

    Dear God in Heaven. Just because it would please you that that be true, does not make it so!
    No citation?! Lol, not surprised.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    Yep, I was right. You are a ignorant Christian who doesn’t remember that Jesus Christ said that his followers are to follow his fathers laws until the earth and heaven pass away. Since both are still here, you are ignoring your savior because it’s tooo inconvenient to follow his commands. And in that same set of verses is where so very many Christians get their hatred for homosexuals. So, we have Christians like you cherry picking the bible to make your god in your image. And yep, magical, Bob, because Christians claim that the bible came from their god, quite a magical being.
    Thanks for admiting aI made a point, when you quoted me about destroying NATO. Nice to see you lying again. I wonder, do you remember your bible saying that your god hates lies and liars? Probably not, because it’s very likely you’ve never actually read your bible. You just listen to people who tell you what you want to hear. The laws from Leviticus aren’t from when Israel was ruled by a “king”. The israelites didn’t have a king until much later, but of course, Jews and Christians have no idea when the laws from Exodus and Leviticus came into being since the exodus never happened, sine no one has a date for it that isn’t contradicted by the other believers.
    It’s a shame that you have decided to lie, Bob. Nope, I don’t hate the bible or God or conservatives. I have no problem in correcting them. I do hate that you lie and you try to hurt people. Well, Bob, I don’t choose to lie like you do and the orange idiot you support does. So, I’m at least better than you and him. And funny how you go silent when I have shown you that your god wants you to murder adulterers. How wonderfully dishonest.

  • Well if I am ignorant what does that make you? Enlightened?
    I am not here to debate with atheists; they are boring. As far as lies without God there is no moral law and lies don’t exist.
    You keep trying to frame Politics with the Bible; but you don’t understand the bible well enough to do so.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    compared to you? Yep, enlighted. It’s great to see you run away, Bob, and have no ability to rebut my points. You just lie. It’s hilarious that you lie again and claim that morals don’t exist. They certainly do and are created by humans. You still lie.
    It’s hilarious that someone who tried to lie and claim that there was nothing about murdering adulterers in the bible wants to claim that I dont’ understand the bible. You have no idea what is in it, from what your god’s commandments are, to what Jesus Christ supposedly said, and that your god hates liars. You follow an adulterer, a cheat, a liar, someone who says that wannabee Nazis and Confederates are “fine people”, and someone who sucks up to Russia and Putin. That’s quite a thing for a Christian to do, Bob. Evangelical pastors try to claim that it doesn’t matter, but per your bible it does. Your god murdered a child for the actions of its father, an adulterer.

  • Kevin R. Cross

    Certainly, and to her face any time you like. One person’s bad experience means exactly nothing and does not even address the particulars of the situation.

  • Kevin R. Cross

    On the contrary, I think you’d find anyone literate in the subject would know full well that people have died in full hospitals with every possible medical care from complications arising from an abortion procedure. The problem is, this is also true of tonsillectomies, appendectomies, liposuction and, believe it or not, tooth-whitening procedures. No medical procedure, no matter how minor, is without risk. And the “liberal media” covers all of this quite well, actually.
    End result, that is no valid argument against abortion. Likewise, five, or fifty, or five hundred silly attempts at emotional blackmail also constitute no argument at all. I could equally easily come up with an equal number of women who have had abortions who did, and do, consider it a positive aspect of their lives, having allowed them to continue their lives as they saw fit.
    When all is said and done, your only argument against abortion is that you do not like it. That’s fine, you have the right. What you don’t have is the right to force your beliefs on other people.

  • Thanks. I have no doubt that the Progressive Left wants to take our country in Socialism; they don’t even try to hide it. Bernie Sanders campaigns on it; free healthcare and free College are two examples. Notwithstanding that the Progressives cannot articulate how they are going to pay for these massive social programs they do say they will repeal the recent tax cuts and raise taxes. I believe it is the Lack of stated positions that among other things have doomed the Democrats in the coming midterms; they just don’t know it yet.

    Who are the Christian Right politicians you refer to that would support abortion to secure an additional term.

  • You make no points because as an atheist you have no starting point to argue from do you? Why do you make comments about biblical terms when you have no idea what they mean. You just ramble on about what I said or did not say with no clarity. If you have a point to make about the OT make it. If you have a point to make about a God you do not accept make it. How are 63 million people ” followers of the President.” We voted for a President as is our right. You really have a childish understanding of this country and its politics. Your frustration prevents you from saying anything logical.

  • Trump – other bad stuff – nonsensical. He is the President and unlike the previous disaster Trump actually implements his campaign promises.

  • Pennybird

    She is an anti abortion activist. If you have evidence from a news source that would be easier for me to buy, but wouldn’t change my mind. But as to the point that women shouldn’t get abortions because PP covered up sex crimes by Weinstein, should women also not go to the movies? Rose’s is only an ad hominem attack – I will confess to using them myself from time to time, but it doesn’t help the argument.

  • Pennybird

    There is no other situation in which a person is required to give up a part of their body to save the life of another. Pregnancy and childbirth are dangerous, especially in our country, so to require a woman to keep a pregnancy is to choose the baby over the mother. This contradicts a common anti abortion compromise that will allow it in the case of rape or incest. Make up your minds.

  • Obscurely

    Like the promise to build the wall and make Mexico pay for it? at least he’s keeping his promise to Make Russia Great Again …

  • Obscurely

    I think even the most liberal Democrats would trade the corrupt Trump for the ‘Boy Scout’ Reagan in a heartbeat — he seemed to at least have a high moral character, whether one agreed with his policies or not …

  • Obscurely

    I agree that many white evangelicals (for example) betrayed their faith by voting for Trump — but some voted for what they saw as the lesser of two evils out of genuine concern for their free exercise of religion — see this excellent debate …

  • Kevin R. Cross

    Easier to say the ones I don’t. Pat Robertson seems to be honest in his beliefs, for all that he may be getting a bit fuzzy in his old age. Mark Driscoll is a despicable human being, but I don’t think he’d sell out that much.
    But the heads of the SBC, and any member of the Republican caucus? Yeah, in a heartbeat.

  • Kevin R. Cross

    On the contrary, the planned parenthood thing was quite well covered. It did die off eventually, but frankly that was because all we heard was allegation after allegation and no arrests, prosecutions or frankly, proof. Your dismissal of the “liberal media” is frankly absurd – scandals like that are the meat and drink of journalists. If you think they wouldn’t sell out any possible bias to get a top of the broadcast story, you don’t understand “if it bleeds, it leads” modern journalism.

  • Sorry you are unable to communicate.Your comment about the Wall is premature and duplicitous. One one hand you root for him to fail and on the other you criticize him for not going fast enough.
    What is the point of your Russia comment besides invective?

  • Obscurely

    I’m guessing the 53% of Americans who today disapprove of Trump (and the majority who voted against him in the 2016 popular vote) have similar complaints — I’m not rooting for him to fail (the wall is a good idea), Trump is doing a great job of failing all by himself — as for Russia, his bias on Putin’s behalf (and against our allies) is a matter of almost daily public record …

  • Pennybird

    His moral character was certainly in line with Evangelicals: dog whistles to racists, our first divorced president (correct me if I’m wrong) which is only okay for Republicans. FWIW, he signed abortion into law as governor of California several years before it became a hot button issue.

    But to your point, he behaved professionally and with decorum and that is something I dearly miss.

  • Pennybird

    You’re not prolife when you drop the baby like a hot potato the minute it needs help outside the womb, and (here comes my ad hominem) that’s what I’ve observed in way too many people in the anti abortion camp. They continually vote against public services for people because it’s a package deal with banning abortion.

  • Obscurely

    Yes thanks, that was exactly my point! — we didn’t have to keep the children out of the room when Reagan was on TV. As for his divorce, this pastor believes God’s grace is available to ALL who are open to it by their faith — but good for you for still believing the things Jesus actually talked about (compared to evangelicals who hate gays but now ignore divorce and adultery) …

  • Pennybird

    If you want to stop abortion you need to be sure that everyone has access to contraception and sex ed. People will not stop having sex (stop the preses) so if you want to prevent abortion, stay out of the way of one of the most efficient providers of contraception. If, on the other hand, you want to control women’s lives, by all means, continue to fight PP. It is not irrelevant. Opposing other peoples reproductive decisions makes no sense. You don’t want me up in your sex life, do you?

  • Jane Ravenswood

    ah, the claims of Chrisitans who want to be martyrs and who try to make believe that not being allowed to force what they believe on others to be persecution. It’s sad that they devalue Christians who really are persecuted.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    Nice lies there, Bob. I have plenty of starting points, and I know what the bible says. You, sadly, are terribly ignorant in what the bible actually says. I’ve made my point, but I’ll do it again for you. You, like many Christians, want to claim that the OT should be followed when you want to hate someone or when you want to force your religion on others by putting such nonsense in public buildings. In the verses I quoted, Christians like you want to accept the hatred aimed at homosexuals, but when those same verses say to murder adulterers, you want to ignore it and follow your orange idiot, trying to claim it doesn’t apply. You follow an idiot, and yep, you voted for him too, e.g. you follow him. Nice attempts to make claims, but funny how ol’ Bob can’t support any of them. He just has to make vague accusations, and then run away. Please do keep trying to ignore the fact that Trump is an adulterer, a cheat, a liar, someone who says that wannabee Nazis and Confederates are “fine people”, and someone who sucks up to Russia and Putin. That’s quite a thing for a Christian to do, Bob. Evangelical pastors try to claim that it doesn’t matter, but per your bible it does. Your god murdered a child for the actions of its father, an adulterer. You follow an anti-christ. How proud you must be!

  • What lies? You are frustrated? It shows in every word of your post. Knowing what the bible says and understanding it are two different things.
    Trump is the President. His accusers are many, including you, and he is none of those things you said. He like many in this country has been married multiple times. That doesn’t make him a bad person. We don’t execute people in this country for adultery. The Anti-Christ is a particular person in the bible and Trump know matter how much you hate him Trump is not that person. I don’t follow Evangelical Pastors so I don’t know what you are referring to there. Sorry but you are not really coherent just blinded by an illogical fury.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    oh my, Bob, it’s good to see yuo insisting that your god is wrong. Poor little Donnie Trump lied about stupid things like the weather during his inauguration. He lied about the size of it. He lied when he promised to get Mexico to pay for his idiotic wall. He lied to his wives when he was having sex with their replacements. He is an adulterer, and per your bible, this god says that they should die. He claimed to have grabbed women by the genitals. He has cheated his employees out of fair wages (and yes your bible says this is a bad thing: Leviticus 19:You shall not oppress your neighbor or rob him. The wages of a hired servant shall not remain with you all night until the morning). Trump has said that wannabee nazis and confederates are “fine people”. It’s interesting that you want to lie for this man.
    Yep, this country doesn’t execute people for adultery and that is happily because it is not a Christian nation, another lie that many Christians repeat. It’s again just great that Christians like you want to ignore this part of the bible and then insist that your god hates homosexuals, from that same set of verses. Happily we ignore that nonsense from your bible too.

    And hmmm, it’s okay to be married multiple times? Jesus didn’t think so. Matthew 19:He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.” 7 They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?” 8 He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”

    Again, you are so very ignorant of your bible. No, dear, the anti-christ is not one particular person. You might actually want to read your bible someday. 1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.”

  • Liberals always drag the conversation into sex and you are no different. What in the world do “homosexuals” have to do with Trump; that is Obama’s area of interest. You seem very bitter and I will pray for you to the very God you deny.

    If you read what you wrote Jesus said it can be ok to divorce. You don’t know why Trump divorced Ivana or Marla.

    What causes you to frame your last paragraph with invective? Insecurity? You ramble as if you are mad as hell but since Trump has been elected your life has been better not worse.

    However, the Anti-Christ coming soon at the end of this age is one particular person. Matthew 24:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:1–12, Mark 13:14. I don’t expect you to understand the bible. People like you who deny God can read it but not understand it at all.

  • Mr. James Parson

    He was black and not mixed race. I never understood that.

  • Mr. James Parson

    I am not familiar with that history. Do you have any links to any articles?

  • Trump’s approval rating has been climbing despite historic opposition from all parties. His rating is above Obamas at the same point. The popular vote does not elect Presidents in our system. Thank God that Hillary did not get elected.
    Trumps accomplishments in the economy and foreign policy are already legendary and now a second Supreme Court appointment.

  • Mr. James Parson

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

    Sounds like they wanted nothing to do with religion in the Government.

  • Mr. James Parson

    Glad to hear it

  • Mr. James Parson

    There are atheist assholes.

    The thing is they don’t have organized religion to protect them.

  • Mr. James Parson

    Prosperity Gospel?

  • Your children see much worse every day and in every way on the Internet. I don’t know many evangelicals but the ones I know don’t hate gays. They hate the judicial system that decided to give their marriage legitimacy. But does God accept these marriages?

  • Progressives are in a sheer panic. Armageddon is apparently happening again because Trump actually nominated a pearson to be on the Supreme Court. I heard this on CNN. Damn where is the nearest bomb shelter.

  • You should audition for CNN.

  • Idiots more fairly describe Democrat men. The funny thing is that the President is your President also and you can’t do anything about it. Maybe you can find him at a restaurant and try to harass him ?

  • You mean the Amendment that Universities have decided doesn’t apply?

  • When you have no leader and your campaign is raise taxes, hate Trump and open the borders you are doomed.

  • Obscurely

    Hi Bob — I didn’t vote for Hillary either … I’m assuming you’re a Christian, so how do you justify Trump’s moral unfitness to be President?

  • Obscurely

    So just because kids see bad stuff on the internet that excuses the vileness that Trump exposes them to?!? and you should leave God out of it, given Trump’s track record of adultery, paying off porn stars, owning casinos with strip clubs, bragging about groping women, cheating contractors, etc etc …

  • Obscurely

    As a pastor I’m as appalled as you are at the level of white evangelical support for Trump — but I still try to keep an open mind that the motivations of some could stem from an honest (if perhaps misguided, as you suggest) concern for their religious freedom …

  • Think about it. Either I vote for Trump or write in a candidate or don’t vote. The prospect of Hillary winning and continuing to destroy the country after 8 years of BO was impossible to ignore. From where I sit she is a criminal and an enabler of the highest order; much worse than Trump. Absolutely no moral compass left in her. It was easy.

  • Obscurely

    Bob, your argument would have a LOT more credibility if you acknowledged Trump’s huge moral deficit, instead of fawning over him and his (dubious) accomplishments — you imply Trump was the lesser of two evils, but then only want to talk about Hillary’s evil and never HIS. (You also had many other choices in the Republican primaries, why choose Trump as the least qualified?)

  • Obscurely

    66 million voted AGAINST Trump :)

  • Scott Harrison

    James below are a few links which you may find interesting. I haven’t come across a thorough study on the subject of the guilt – and the denial of culpability – amongst white evangelicals who lived through Apartheid, and perhaps my point was a little overstated for rhetorical effect (I’m passionate about it). As a “white South African” – who was also a young conservative (and conflicted) evangelical in the late 1980’s – I have discussed this subject with many Christians and found much evidence of a strange mix of denialism, guilt and genuine repentance. I cannot speak for them all, but the effects of moral compromise seem deep and long-lasting:

    Conservative churches apologise:




    Justifying Injustice with the Bible: Apartheid:




    Philippe Denis:


  • njguy54

    Not sure if this is the case for the Left Behind series, but for many Christian movies, churches often buy tickets in bulk for their own congregations, and sometimes even give them away to the general public.

  • Pennybird

    Because of the way politics is here Americans get a package deal when they vote. The anti abortion candidate is reliably Republican and they can also be replied upon to: defund health care, defund social services (food and housing assistance) to the needy, defund education, fight against industry regulation that protect workers and the environment. It’s what they do, and what they stand for. They usually throw abortion and gay marriage in there to get poor Americans to vote against their economic interests. It’s a time honored tradition. So, to boil down American civics 101, when you vote to eliminate abortion you are also voting to preserve poverty and those other things that take years off the end of one’s life so that corporations can enjoy higher profits. Hence my statement about dropping the baby like a hot potato.

    And for the record, there have been more than a few anti abortion candidates who are known to have facilitated abortions for their mistresses. But I realize that’s different, because she would have needed one.

    Best to just keep it legal and let everyone decide for themselves. Outlawing abortion doesn’t end abortion, as they know all too well in Ireland. Nice place I hear, other than the evil perpetrated by the Catholic Church in order to keep women in line. I hope to visit sometime.

  • Pennybird

    The campaign this year, broadly, is to save your sorry ass. When my rights go, so do yours. Your welcome.

  • Why not…your only spewing out Fox News huckster news…

    …and besides, did Miss Jane say anything that has no substance, don’t think so and you don’t think so either, because ya couldn’t reply with a concrete rebuttal to her facts…instead ya chose divulging into what ya think as being cute in your nonsensical remark…

  • You and Miss Jane share the same level of debate – grade school.
    I’ll give one chance to reply with some facts. What does “still working with Russia and doin their bidding” mean?
    If you can answer that general statement I will reply to you nonsensical comments.

  • If I may, might I sit in for Miss Jane…Praising Putin and Russia on every turn he gets while mocking and criticizing time honored American allies, Trump is a blessing to Putin in creating rifts and fissures between Putin’s perceived foes.

    Russia is the one country that has arguably benefited the most from the Trump administration’s insistence that other countries (including America’s Western allies) reduce their petroleum imports from Iran to zero or face U.S. sanctions.

    By going through America to China to protect himself from current and potential U.S. sanctions against Russia, Russian, Alexander Voloshin, who headed Putin’s presidential administration, was able to secretly invest in Houston based ‘American Ethane’ signed a multibillion dollar export deal with China. Trump was promoting this transaction as a ruse in stating it was ““American prosperity and trade” in deals that would generate “thousands of American jobs,” when in fact it was a front for Russian opportunists.

    When Syria used another nerve gas agent on its citizens that was OK’d by Putin, the world demanded more sanctions be added to Russia and Syria. Trump nixed efforts for the U.S. to impose anymore sanctions onto Russia.

    17 U.S. agencies insist Putin meddled in our 2017 elections, yet Trump defends and believes Putin’s denials of it over the nation’s intelligence agencies.

    Just to add…Why do ya think the entire Russian parliament stood up and cheered when it was announced Trump had won the presidency…

  • I will answer all of your comments. But you have to realize that you have provided no substance, cites, information, comment or really anything but personal opinion. You certainly had the opportunity with Voloshin.

    1. “Praising Putin and Russia on every turn he gets while mocking and criticizing time honored American allies, Trump is a blessing to Putin in creating rifts and fissures between Putin’s perceived foes.”
    This is an editorial comment based on your knowledge without any quotes, dates or sources. It is the kind of statement that no one can respond to factually.

    2. “Russia…benefited…” This is someone’s opinion without any justification provided. Who knows if this is true. But explain why trying to stop oil flowing to Iran is a bad thing?

    3. Certainly you provide us an article on Voloshin “secretly” investing in American Ethane and explain why whatever Trump said was deceptive.

    4. Certainly you can provide the details of why Trump dropped additional sanctions because of what you said.

    5. Your 17 agencies comment is interesting. First it is a lie. There were only four agencies and the other agencies acquiesced without any independent knowledge. You do not know what Trump believes in this matter either. Do you?

    6. Why don’t you ask one or tell us.

  • Bobby, look it up for yourself, as there are many articles covering these, just type in a few key words…for if I do it for ya, you’ll simply regurgitate ‘fake news’…

  • Ron McPherson

    “They hate the judicial system that decided to give their marriage legitimacy. But does God accept these marriages?”

    Why? What’s it to the evangelicals? And whether God accepts it, well that’s between the marriage partners and God. I would take offense if someone were to question whether God accepted my marriage to my wife. If people hate the judicial system for legalizing SSM, then the claim that evangelicals hate gays has some validity. It’s not about the Bible, but about bigotry. If it was about the Bible, then evangelicals would hate the judicial system for not prohibiting marriages between the previously divorced.

  • Ron McPherson

    I agree. A mere decade ago I would have probably voted for Trump while honestly thinking God wanted me too. As bizarre as it seems, and especially in light of Jesus’ teachings, I’m convinced conservative evangelicals actually think God is on their side for supporting Trump.

  • Ron McPherson

    Wait, did I literally just read where a Trump zealot actually criticized a candidate for having “no moral compass” lol?

  • Ron McPherson

    I’m convinced Jesus couldn’t be elected in the U.S. because of opposition from the conservative evangelicals.

  • Character counted then and counts now. Trump has none. Hence the constant hand-waving.

  • Yes you did.

  • Religion is often a kind of magnifying glass. If extreme ugliness is present somewhere (or inside someone, character-wise), then it gets bigger and bigger when seen through that religious lens.

  • Internet memes such as “Walk Away” do not a movement make.

  • In short, Gerson seems to be observing that the Christian right has chosen its own path to destruction. It’s almost like watching Macbeth in a way. The protagonist, through fears about possible future outcomes, winds up fulfilling prophecy through ill action.

  • It really is astonishing, isn’t it? “Bill Clinton is a sexual predator” as a statement in absolutely no logical way leads to “Therefore, being a sexual predator is a fine thing.” And yet that’s the twisted ‘logic’ that happens.

  • Don’t forget how he was to the Christian right Obama was both fascist and Marxist at the same time. Ugh.

  • Merely existing is an affront that offends some people. Such is life.

    I can’t wait until this kind of bigotry that they have finally dies off.

  • >’Men and sex is something that will never change.’

    And so you’re 100% A-OK with men having sex with men and everything from legalized gay marriage to laws against discrimination that hurts gay men… right?

    God, the hipocracy is so thick. President Donald Trump appears on the cover of Playboy magazine, brags about cheating on his wives, gets linked to abortions promoted among his mistresses, et cetera. That’s all apparently fine because sexual morality rules only apply when it’s convenient.

  • No, names don’t.
    But Millennials leaving the Democrat Party in droves is a huge problem that I thought would never happen.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    Why, Ob? Nothing supports that belief at all.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    which teachings? bring those who will not accept me as king and murder them (Luke 19)?

  • The comment is a follow up to calling Trump a NY playboy in his youth. It refers to Trump’s three marriages.
    The Progressive Left is besotted with sex and sexual innuendo and everything sex. One wonders when they time for anything else. The Left and Liberals are baby killers because it is a convenient birth control. As to why the Left and Liberals think they are superior to others and should dictate to us on the Right about morals- I say look in the mirror.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    Oh my, Bob. Thanks for being such a stereotype. Please do pray for me. Now what are you going to pray for? Hmmm, would it be that this god forces me to agree with you? I suspect that is it. Now, when I don’t, what will that mean? That your god doesn’t like you or your prayers? He loves me as I am? Or that this god doesn’t exist? And such sad little attempts at being insulting. I do know why Trump divorced Ivana and Marla. He wants young pretty things. So, please don’t try to lie for Trump, it doesn’t work. And no, my life hasn’t been better with a president who lies every chance he gets. It is not better because this idiot has started trade wars. It is not better because this idiot has encouraged hateful stupid people to be more public with their stupidity. Trump has tried his best to harm people by taking away their healthcare for preexisting conditions. And this idiot has tried to rollback environmental regulations that give us clean air and water. Your claims fail, Bob.
    It’s great to see you lie and ignore what your bible actually says, Bob. Every Christian claims that he and he alone correctly understands the bible. and all of you are lying, having no more evidence than the next. I’m not “ranting”, but keep making false claims, Bob. I’m not the one who claims to believe in a god that hates lies and liars. Your god says that one should murder adulterers. You ignore that part, but want to keep the verses about hating and murdering homosexuals which comes from the very same set of verses. And that, Bob, is why I’m mentioning sex. Because you are a sad little hypocrite, who gainsays his god.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    No, he hasn’t. No wall paid for by mexico. No super great healthcare to replace the ACA. No infrastructure plan. No help for miners. A trade war with the rest of the world that will bankrupt farmers. He has seperated familes with no idea on how to reunite them. He has lied about NATO and lied about him being the reaosn that they pay more (that was Obama’s deal still playing out). He has encouraged vermin like wannabee Nazis and Confederates and other bigots to come out from under their rocks. For a country that fought against Nazis, to have a presidentn who says they are “fine people” is disgusting. but I know you don’t have a problem with it at all, Bob. More is the pity.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    oh and don’t forget how your leader trump has desperately insisted it doesn’t apply. You know, his lies about “fake news”? And applauding murderous dictators who don’t allow any dissent. Let me ask you, Bob: how does it feel to have a president who thinks Kim Jong Un is a great guy, when this dictator murders his own people, and doesn’t allow your religion in his land? For all of the claims of persecution of Christians, it’s great to see so many Christians have no problem with Trump applauding such people.

  • Jane you really have it bad. God doesn’t force anyone to come to Him. He calls you and either you respond or you don’t in this age. That’s it. If I wanted to insult you it would not be hard. You would be pretty easy to demean.
    Exactly how has the “trade war” negatively impacted you. It has not.
    Who has had their pre-existing conditions taken away? No one.
    You have no idea what God says and you have demonstrated it over and over – you are fixated on it.
    Calling me a liar because I dare to disagree with you makes you the small person not me. So there you are. Back to square one and no one who reads these posts is better off for it.

  • Changing the definition of marriage is a big deal. It is not about hate. Bigotry is just a term to make it personal and seem mean. Hardly what happened.

  • I do know he would not be a baby killing Democrat….

  • Obscurely

    With many millions I’ve learned the HARD way the truth of Pascal’s dictum, “The heart has reasons of which reason knows nothing”

  • Obscurely

    Let’s for the sake of argument say Jesus is just the literary embodiment of the hope for deliverance of an oppressed people — progressive Christians keep the ethical baby and throw out the dogmatic bath water …

  • Ron McPherson

    So if it’s not about hate, and it’s not about the Bible, and it’s not about bigotry, then just what is it about then?

  • Ron McPherson

    For me, the context hinges on the culture of Jesus’ original hearers and what is recorded in Luke 19:11, “As they were listening to this, he went on to tell a parable, because he was near Jerusalem, and because they supposed that the kingdom of God was to appear immediately.”

    Common Jews in Jesus’ day longed to be free from oppression; oppression from the Roman Empire and oppression from religion and its burdensome rules. But their idea of the kingdom of God was tied up with OT images of God restoring Israel by defeating enemy nations by violent overthrow. And it seems Jesus toppled that way of thinking by preaching love, humility, forgiveness and compassion, even for enemies, and these characteristics were to distinguish true citizens of his kingdom from those of the world. And Jesus’ followers were to go out and proclaim this as well.

    It seems that the gospels (well, the Synoptics especially) have in view (as the background for many of the judgment passages) the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and that Jesus’ warnings were within that context. So for those desiring for God to be their ruler, to come through the tribulation which would accompany these events, they needed to do it God’s way. Those who resorted to violence and retribution, which was not the way of God, would ultimately be slaughtered (which happened) by Rome. These, the “enemies of God”, suffered a natural fate of violence. Again, Jesus’ comments were in the form of a parable so there was metaphor in all this.

    By the way, I could be wrong on this lol. As a Christian, I try to filter most everything through Jesus’ greatest commandment to love God and neighbor. But in all honesty, no one can claim absolute authority on biblical interpretation and it really irks me when anyone claims they do. Sorry for such a long response but I thought you raised a good point with the reference to Luke there.

  • Of course it is about the bible. For 3000 years the definition of marriage was one man and one woman.
    Then 3000 years later a few Judges decided they knew better and change the definition to suit.
    Where do you think the definition of marriage came from without the bible?

  • Ron McPherson

    Lol, well a couple things. We best not use the bible’s “definition of marriage” as a template for contemporary society. There were some very odd arrangements in the scriptures. But aside from that, explain to me, if it’s truly about the Bible, why then are conservative evangelicals not hating on the judicial system for allowing previously divorced couples, guilty of adultery, to remarry? You know that reeks of hypocrisy right? And everybody (well apparently not the conservative evangelicals) can see right through this.

  • That is the problem people have had since the beginning; forget the bible it has to be my way. Without the bible there would be no marriage because no one would know what the word meant.
    Simple, the judicial system governs a lawful society but is not the enforcement mechanism of Christianity. Why in the world would Christians want the government to regulate marriage; the Catholic Church already does that.

  • apoxbeonyou

    From the video description:

    “Progressive churches demand that we accept refugees with open arms…”

    No. Jesus commanded that. Sorry if that sucks but maybe you should find another religion?

  • Ron McPherson

    “That is the problem people have had since the beginning; forget the Bible it has to be my way.”

    Well, that’s not really the issue here. The point being made is how conservative evangelicals cherry-pick scripture to suit their own prejudices. Like, we’re against SSM because we find no record of it in the Bible and so hate the judicial system for legalizing it. But, even though the Bible speaks against divorce and remarriage in certain circumstances, we have no problems with the judicial system for legalizing that one cause society accepts it and our churches are full of those couples.

    “Simple, the judicial system governs a lawful society but is not the enforcement mechanism of Christianity. “

    Wait, so first you insist it really is about the Bible with respect to hating the judicial system for legalizing SSM. Now you’re saying that the govt “is not the enforcement mechanism of Christianity.” So which is it?

  • David Cohen

    “Without the bible there would be no marriage because no one would know what the word meant.”

    – Bob, that might be the most ridiculous thing you have ever said, and that is saying something. Marriage has existed in numerous cultures that had never even heard of the Bible. Numerous ancient pagan cultures recognized marriage. Even the Bible recognizes that non-biblical societies recognized marriage. Note the Pharaoh’s reaction to discovering that Sarah was Abraham’s wife after Abraham concealed that fact.

    Marriage has, historically, had several purposes. It existed so that men could be secure of the identity of their wives’ offspring for inheritance purposes. It also existed to secure alliances between families. Across time and societies we see that marriage has served economic, social and political roles. Marriage as a religious sacrament is, relatively speaking, a new and obscure idea. Indeed, the Apostle Paul states that it is good for men not to marry, celibacy being preferable in his eyes. He permits it only as a concession to human weakness (I Corinthians chapter 7.)

    The debate in American society has been over marriage as a legal institution. Churches are not required to recognize or perform same-sex marriages. By the same token, the case against same sex marriages requires legal arguments, and “but the Bible says…” is not a legal argument.

  • David Cohen

    Except the the definition of marriage has changed considerably over the past few thousand years. Consider:

    – Marriage is considered to be a contract between the participants now, not the participant’s families
    – Children are no longer seen as acceptable marriage prospects (note that the Bible gives no age for when marriages can occur)
    – Most jurisdictions across the world outlaw plural marriages (which would have landed David, Abraham, Jacob and all the other polygamous men of the Bible in hot water)
    – Men are no longer expected to impregnate their sisters-in-law if their brother dies without a male heir, a concept called “levirate marriage” and discussed in Deuteronomy 25:5-10
    – Wives are no longer considered the property of their husbands. On a related note, husbands are no longer legally permitted to assault or rape their wives.
    – People of different ethnicities are permitted to marry, in spite of religious conservatives’ insistence that that Bible forbade such unions
    – Love is considered a factor in marriage now. Love plays little role in Biblical marriages. The only case I know of in the entire Bible where married partners were explicitly said to lone one another is Rachel and Jacob (Leah being pretty left out in the cold.)

    In short, the suggestion that the concept of marriage is immutable is not sustained by the facts. Marriage has changed over the years, a lot, and ALWAYS for the better.

  • Almost makes you question if the entire religion is made up.

  • Of course it is. The word of God has been available to mankind from the beginning printed or not. The concept of marriage being between a man and a woman is from God. This issue is much broader than Evangelicals as all of Christianity knows that marriage is between a man and a woman – so several billion give or take. And it had been that way since man was put on earth.

    Who do you know that doesn’t cherry pick scriptures to suit? No one. I did not suggest any such thing. You are not interpreting correctly.

  • Marriage only existed in cultures because they knew about marriage from God. The “bible” was not available until later but the word of God was always available – until certain cultures disregarded it. And where do you think the pagan cultures, like Egypt learned about marriage in the first place?. You might note that the Egyptians consulted the Israelites after the earth was moved out of its orbit because they did not know how to correct the calendar, etc. They had commuication – even if not the same beliefs.

    Your understanding of Paul is weak also. Marriage exists primarily to populate the species about 15 billion more or less by now. The rest is just peripheral.

    Same sex marriage advocates wanted the ability to marry to avoid the stigma surrounding them. It also became necessary to do something about healthcare privacy and social benefits. No same sex marriage would be recognized in general with the ruling.

  • Your points do not show that marriage between a man and a woman has changed over time at all. It shows certain cultures added things to the marriage not who was to be married to each other.

  • David Cohen

    Your first paragraph is nothing but a list of convenient assumptions. And as for the suggestion that the Earth was moved out of its orbit, that is just silly.

    Regarding your second paragraph, I invite you to read the text itself. Paul is quite explicit in what he says about marriage. But then it seems that all exegesis must be approved by The Party, that is why the literal word is fine for condemning homosexuality but not for discussing marriage.

    As for your third paragraph…so what? You appear to be annoyed that the world is leaving fundamentalists behind on this issue. Is it humans you serve your your deity?

  • David Cohen

    “Your points do not show that marriage between a man and a woman has
    changed over time at all.”
    – I never said it did. I was pointing out that marriage, like all social institutions, does change over time. The popular conservative assertion that marriage has remained unchanged since its inception is demonstrably false.

    “It shows certain cultures added things to the
    marriage not who was to be married to each other.”
    – Read what I wrote again and see how wrong you are. Marriage partners are no longer chosen for a person. Marriages between people of different ethnicities are no longer outlawed (I recall when that was a huge controversy, especially among Southern fundamentalists). Women whose husbands die without producing an heir are no longer required to have one with their brother-in-law, in spite of that the Bible requires. Age is now a consideration with marriage.

    Almost everything I wrote has to do with who may be married to whom.

  • Ron McPherson

    “This issue is much broader than Evangelicals as all of Christianity knows that marriage is between a man and a woman.”

    Well, not “all of Christianity” since there are Christians in a same sex marriage. But regardless, an entrenched view held over centuries literally has no bearing on whether or not God himself accepts one’s marriage. Unless you presume to think organized Christianity always speaks for God. Do you think Christians we’re speaking for God over centuries of condoning the enslavement of others?

    “And it (‘marriage is between a man and a woman) had been that way since man was put on earth.”

    No it hasn’t. The OT is full of polygamous marriages even among the patriarchs. And nowhere do we find a record of God condemning it. The point is that one absolutely positively cannot find a template in the Bible governing marriage to be singularly defined no matter how much you want it to be that way.

    “Who do you know that doesn’t cherry pick scriptures to suit?”

    The problem is not when one does such a thing, but rather when one does it with a presumed authority. I have no problem when someone says, well I believe the Bible says such and such, but I realize other passages would call my view into question. Unfortunately, what we often get is, well the Bible says such and such and that settles it because God said it (while pretending the other passages calling such a view into question somehow don’t count).

  • As is your statement that, “Marriage has existed in numerous cultures that had never even heard of the Bible.”
    Trying to read Paul as affirming homosexuality is futile. Kind of like Mueller looking for collusion.
    The issue has already been settled just like abortion – doesn’t make it correct.

  • Ron McPherson

    Facts can be such an annoying inconvenience

  • David Cohen

    “As is your statement that, ‘Marriage has existed in numerous cultures that had never even heard of the Bible.'”
    – In invite you to look up the details of ancient China, prior to contact with the west, as a start.

    “Trying to read Paul as affirming homosexuality is futile.”
    – I never said he was for same sex marriage. I was simply pointing out that he did not have a high view of heterosexual marriage. It seems though that this point is forgotten by modern day fundamentalists because it violates the one and only ethic they hold: expediency.

    “Kind of like Mueller looking foe collusion.”
    – Not sure where that came from, especially when the indictments and guilty pleas from your man’s cronies are piling up like cord-wood.

    “The issue has already been settled just like abortion – doesn’t make it correct.”
    – And yet, you still seem to be fixated on the myth that your religion “owns” marriage.

  • Ron McPherson

    Ok, one of the administrators should step in and mercifully stop this fight on a technical knockout. However, Bob should at least get some points in continuing to get back up off the canvas each time. Shows guts. Or maybe just punch drunk. Who knows.

  • Questioning

    You sidestepped the salient point…. “If it was about the Bible, then evangelicals would hate the judicial system for not prohibiting marriages between the previously divorced.”

    Is adultery not a “big deal?” I seem to recall it being one of the Top 10. It IS about bigotry, prejudice, and ignorance, and yes… sometimes hate. Whether one is willing to accept it for what it is, or not, is beside the point. .

  • Ron McPherson

    “You might note that the Egyptians consulted the Israelites after the earth was moved out of its orbit because they did not know how to correct the calendar”

    Wait, what?!

  • You don’t believe in the OT completely as I remember it so the cites won’t really work for you.

  • Ron McPherson

    Lol, so try me

  • Your reply is illogical. What salient point. You support Ron’s statement without understanding it.
    Adultery compared to abortion is not a big deal. Adultery affects two people maybe ten; abortion could be responsible for thousands of potential beings never born.

  • Questioning

    Wrong… I understand it very clearly and it makes perfect sense to anyone not in that river in Egypt.

    “Adultery affects two people maybe ten” ??? say what? You are beginning to sound like your hero i.e. “I have no organ”. Besides I thought we were talking about SSM not abortion. Please Bob just stay on the canvas, there’s no way you will be able to save face here. Fight another day.

  • Isaiah 38:8 “I will make the shadow cast by the sun go back the ten steps it has gone down on the stairway of Ahaz.'” So the sunlight went back the ten steps it had gone down.” This was not a parlor trick in a local neighborhood. This was felt across the land. How do we know that you will ask.
    2 Chronicles 32:31
    “And so when ambassadors of the rulers of Babylon were sent to him to inquire about the wonder that had happened in the land, God left him alone to test him, that He might know all that was in Hezekiah’s heart.” This was my point for the faint of heart and the non-believers, men from Babylon were sent to Hezekiah to learn what happened and to understand how to correct the calendar which was now not working because Israel were the keepers of the oracles.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    so, do you believe that Jesus Christ, who isn’t a Nazarene, if you look at the gospels, isn’t a real being? This entity, literal or figurative, said that it came to divide families, and that one should murder people who don’tn believe in it. This entity said to obey its father’s laws, which said to murder homosexuals, to murder people who work on the sabbath (somethign that Christians can’t agree on), to is supposed to come and murder everyoen who doesn’t agree with it in Revelation. It seems you’ve created a messiah and a god in your image, far better than that in the bible. I don’t need to believe in something that says genocide is fine and murdering people who don’t agree with me is fine. Do you want to believe in such a being?

  • Jane Ravenswood

    and it isn’t true at all. The “heart” is ignorant nonsense. All you are claimign is “different way of knowing” and funny how Christians make the same claims and completely disagree with each other. Ob, tell me how I should know that your version of Christianity is the right one and no one else is. What do you have that they don’t?

  • Jane Ravenswood

    Again your ignorance of what your bible actually says is telling. Yes, Bob, your god does pick and choose who can accept him. Read your bible, read Romans 9. There is no “responding”. Your god says that it picks and chooses, and your messiah says that it intentionally uses parables so only certain people underestand him. Read Matthew.
    You are a liar again. When I next wish to buy a car, it will impact me. Already it is impacting car manufacturers. It’s sad that you intentionally lie. Your orange messiah has said that states may take away the coverage for preexisting conditions. It is only a matter of time. But I do hope you suffer as others have suffered. Of course, hope is no more than a wish. And funny how someone who has never read the bible wants to falsely claim I’m wrong. I call you a liar because you lie, not because we disagree. I also call you an idiot because you try to excuse Trump, who does everythign that the bible say not to, and you try to lie about the bible.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    yep, he told a parable. Now, tell me what his words of killing people who don’t accept him in front of him “really” means. There is no “natural fate”, i’s just murder. In this parable, JC is telling those who accept him should murder those who do not. You are quite correct that no one can claim absolute authority on what was meant in the bible. Doesn’t that make you wonder why the bible is claimed as the “word of god”?

  • “But regardless, an entrenched view held over centuries literally has no bearing on whether or not God himself accepts one’s marriage.” Your fight is with the bible not me. God ordained marriage as between a man and a woman and said they should cling together and be fruitful and multiply. Where is your corresponding instruction for SSM?There isn’t one. Because SSM can’t be fruitful and multiply. The idea that the bible contains views held over centuries just waiting to be changed by enlightened humans is equally nonsensical. People are free to do whatever they want as God doesn’t force one to submit. But also one cannot presume to commit God because a judge says SSM is valid,

  • Not so David. “Except the the definition of marriage has changed considerably over the past few thousand years.” Not God’s definition only mans. The problem is man wants to commit God to his definition but it doesn’t work that way.

  • Your argument misses the point over and over. God’s definition has not changed; man’s definition has. The validity and acceptance you seek from God to remove the stigma of SSM you won’t get.

  • As I have told you now five times you cannot commit God to SSM. He doesn’t accept it. And certainly not because a Judge said it was ok.

  • David Cohen

    Actually it is you who is missing the point. As I noted, I recall well when the defenders of anti-miscegenation laws cited the Bible in defense of their views. I have heard Mormon fundamentalists cite the Bible in defense of polygamy. And I have heard men try to defend the abuse of their wives by saying the Bible says they are the masters of their home.

    I expect that you will respond by saying that all those people are misinterpreting the Bible while your understanding of it is spot on. Guess what: they would say the exact same thing, and history bears them out. The fact is that it was society which decided that anti-miscegenation laws, polygamy and wife-beating are wrong. People like you side with society out of expedience.

    And given historical precedent, we have EVERY reason to assume that the same will happen with same sex marriage.

  • David Cohen

    Again, according to the Apostle Paul marriage i a concession to weakness. As there appears to be no Christian denomination which preaches this, despite its Biblical grounding, it is clear that expediency, not Biblical adherence, is the principle at work here.

  • David Cohen

    I am old enough to recall when the defenders of anti-miscegenation laws said the exact same thing, so pardon me if I am the tiniest bit skeptical.

  • Yes Jesus spoke in parables to the crowds so they would not understand him in general. Only when you are called and respond can you begin to understand. This is why you have such a hard time with the bible.
    You don’t know much about trade or trade wars or car prices – your only repeating what you hear because you think Trump is Satan in so many words.
    “But I do hope you suffer as others have suffered.” This comment is out of line. Apologize for it!

  • Ron McPherson

    “Your fight is with the bible not me.”

    I don’t have a fight. We’re just wondering why you get bent out of shape over legalizing SSM because it’s not in the Bible, but have no problem with legalizing remarriage of the previously divorced where the Bible does speak against that one. By the way, you still haven’t told us.

    “God ordained marriage as between a man and a woman and said they should cling together and be fruitful and multiply.”

    So does this mean a marriage is invalid unless offspring results from it?

  • Ron McPherson

    “JC is telling those who accept him should murder those who do not.”

    That’s not what I understand his words to mean. But I guess that’s the thing. Maybe that’s why one should never argue politics or religion. But all the blogs would disappear then ; )

    “Doesn’t that make you wonder why the bible is claimed as the “word of god”?”

    We sure hear that a lot, that’s for sure. But man is the one who deemed it to be “the word of God.” The Bible never really defines itself in those terms though.

    Appreciate the discussion though. Thanks

  • We’re? Us?
    As to remarriage, I answered that many questions ago and I believe it is on this blog.
    Can you not see that marriage is how God decided to procreate man. 15 billion and counting. You really don’t kow why do you? Children are are a gift from God by the way.

  • Ron McPherson

    I hardly think this necessarily teaches that the earth got out of orbit, but do appreciate you providing a reference.

  • $26 billion deal? So what. How is Trump involved in any unethical way?

  • No he did not.

  • Ron McPherson

    I’ll ask this as simply as I know how. If you are against the legalization of SSM because, to you, it’s a biblical issue (and has nothing to do with bigotry), why then would you also not be against the legalization of the remarriage of divorced couples? If the Bible, and only the Bible, dictates your acceptance or rejection of the validity of marriage, then why would you not be consistent? The “be fruitful and multiply” bit is irrelevant to the issue unless you think the legalization of SSM will ultimately turn everyone gay, thereby eliminating all hetero marriages such that the earth will no more be re-populated and civilization will cease to exist.

  • First divorce and remarriage are allowed under certain conditions. I previously mentioned the Catholic religion still has restrictions.
    I accept the fact that SS couples need a legal footing – just not a marriage to me.
    Your over thinking the issue. Marriage was created for a purpose and SS does not fit that purpose.
    Bigotry is just another tool to silence critics as the Progressive movement finally generated the momentum to change 6000 years of precident.

  • I am not just citing the bible I am stating that marriage only exists because God created it and explained to man in detail.
    the bible is not just defending marriage it reveals the Creator and His purpose.

  • David Cohen

    And if believing that makes you happy, you are free to do so.

  • David Cohen

    Bob, I know that you have said you are a biblical scholar, but have you ever actually read the Bible?


  • Hardly. Paul said it is better to get married than burn with passion. You misinterpret again and put words in Paul’s statement that he did not say.

  • Well why don’t you tell us where Marriage came from if not from God. Who exactly detailed the concept? When was it invented and why? You can’t even begin to answer these questions.

  • David Cohen

    “But I speak this by indulgence, not by commandment. For I would that all men were even as myself: but every one hath his proper gift from God; one after this manner, and another after that.”
    I Corinthians 7:6-7 (DRA)

    Clearly, the literal text supports my point: that Paul supported marriage only as a concession to weakness. But, again, it seems that the literal reading of the text is only to be considered when it agrees with The Party’s platform, which is dominated by expediency.

  • David Cohen

    Where do all legal and social contracts come from? From we the people. I have long since answered why this is: to secure inheritance for one’s offspring and to secure alliances between families. The basis of marriage is, and has always been, social, economic and political. Religion is a late comer to the process.

  • otrotierra

    Remember Ron, both Saul of Tarsus and Jesus were quick to follow Bob’s Law, and promptly married and got straight to the procreation action, just like the Gospel of Bob Shiloh demands.

  • Your ability to understand the bible is limited. It is apparent each time you quote a verse. As I told you a while ago you missed the Jewish bible school training and it sure shows. For example, if you notice on Ben’s blogs, many people quote Paul to condemn homosexuality. Then several people chime in and argue that this is not correct for a variety of reasons. You are quoting a verse or two from Paul and expect us to believe that Paul considered marriage a concession to weakness. Let’s see if your supporters will agree with you and your new found understanding of marriage.

  • David Cohen

    And once again we see that when you cannot defend your position, your default response is to become condescending an/or abusive. Just once it might be interesting to hear you admit that you are wrong., But apparently you are too arrogant to do that, and arrogance, like greed and adultery, are not problems when they are indulged in by members of The Party.

    As for the rest of your response, are you listening to yourself? You are saying that popularity and not the wording of a passage determines how it is to be understood. At this point you are not even pretending that your conservative understanding of the Bible is based on anything other than expediency.

  • Obscurely

    Why the hostility and insults, friend? my only creed here is “Live and let live” …

  • Obscurely

    With respect, It doesn’t matter if Jesus is “real” or not — progressive Christians ask (with the holy martyr Bonhoeffer), “Who is Jesus for us TODAY?” — and we firmly bracket the genocidal God of the Old Testament as being created in OUR violent image …

  • Obscurely

    Have you no shame, Bob? — you should consider carefully the damage you’re doing to Christian witness with your comments on these blogs. Jesus said if you help the least of us (e.g., refugees), you’ve helped HIM (Matthew 25) — and aren’t you forgetting the child Jesus and his family were refugees who fled to Egypt when his life was threatened??

  • Obscurely

    This pastor commends your faithfulness!

  • Obscurely

    Are you sure God calculates harm from our sins the way you do, Bob? SHAME ON YOU for damaging Christian witness with your ridiculous comments like, “Adultery compared to abortion is not a big deal”

  • Obscurely

    This pastor thanks you for modelling Christian civility with a hostile critic!

  • Ron McPherson

    “First divorce and remarriage are allowed under certain conditions.”

    Of course. I’m speaking specifically in reference to those guilty of infidelity. Would you be in favor of legally prohibiting those to remarry using the Bible as your basis for it? You are in favor of legally prohibiting SSM using the Bible as your basis (you’ve said so), so why would you not be consistent?

    “Marriage was created for a purpose and SS does not fit that purpose.”

    So you’re suggesting that a couple should marry only for the purpose of repopulating the earth? What about hetero couples who purposely decide to not have children? Does that mean their marriage is invalid?

  • Ron McPherson


  • Not at all. I am saying that you do not understand the verses you quoted and you interpretation is skewed. Your other words are superfluous.

  • Have you no common sense. You have the responsibility to provide your Christian duty not your country because our country is no longer a Christian country. Your views and your support for have taken God out of country, Christian or not, and the result is what you see on this blog.

    Damage to Christian witness is being done and has been done steadily over time. How else do you think Abortion and SSM have prevailed?

  • You also exhibit a consistent failure to read critically. Where did I say that?

  • Christian witness? Where? At an abortion clinic with your associates from Planned Parnthood who have decimated a whole race of people?

  • You exhibit the same tenacious behavior about SSM as most on this site because of the stigma attached to it not the affront to God. The bible defined “marriage” and it was from God not man. A judge/s deferred and said God was wrong. Who in the world believes that a judge/s have that power. I don’t.

    If a divorce is granted because of infidelity then both parties are not married anymore. So you want the partner deemed the “adulterer” to be legally barred from re-marrying? For what reason?

    I am not suggesting anything. You are nipping around the corners trying to take issue with God’s purpose for marriage. The couples who decide not to have children have nothing in common with SSM couples do they? Even the Catholic Church who has found sex without the intention to procreate a Sin relented and allowed Rhythm as a birth control method.

  • David Cohen

    And, again, we see you pushing elaborate “interpretations” when the literal text of the Bible disagrees with The Party’s platform. And yet, when the literal text can be used to support The Party’s platform, suddenly the literal text becomes all important. Apparently, in your religion, no one comes unto the Father except by The Party.

  • Trump is not vile. He is an American businessman who loves his country; unlike you who are disgusted by your country. Trump’s personal conduct is none of your business any more than someone who is sitting next to you in church. You list his “sins” as if you are his confessor; you are not. Because he decided to run for office his opponents proffered all this garbage and present it like it is fact. You believe it because Trump is not a Progressive/Liberal and you hate the fact that the Great Criminal, Hillary Clinton, did not win. That’s all there is to your argument. It is little more than a childish tantrum disguised as a biblical affront.

  • Because she is blinded by rage and does not know how to converse with those who disagree.

  • It’s not online as you say. Let us know the part Trump played that is illegal/immoral/unethical.

  • Ok. How would you know? Let’s here one?

  • As is their right. But they still lost. OMG! Change the system that elected 45 Presidents in the greatest country on God’s green earth because Liberals lost.

  • I did not imply Trump was the lessor of two evils. I supported him above all other primary candidates because none of them had the guts to take on the elites in their own party. Least qualified? The only candidate who is qualified to turn the country around. This may come as a shock to you but we the people want jobs and security not the National Enquirer version of a person’s personal life. Your efforts to force Trump into your view of Christianity and thus his disqualification belies the millions of people who are depending on him for their livelihood.

  • Ron McPherson

    I don’t want anyone (gay or straight or adulterer or whoever) to be denied marriage based on law. You’re the one being inconsistent here, not me. You believe gay people should be prohibited by law to marry based on the Bible, and the Bible alone. However, you don’t apply the same standard to straight couples who are guilty of infidelity, something the Bible clearly points out. You’re ok with giving them the right.

    If someone is breaking the “definition of marriage” according to the Bible, how does that negatively affect you? If this is about the Bible (whatever the reason), then you’re being hypocritical. If this isn’t about the Bible, then you’re being bigoted.

  • Jesus and his parents were Roman citizens by conquest and had the ability to travel the empire at will. They broke no
    immigration laws. The point you miss is the difference between personal behavior and governmental behavior.

  • If you could enunciate without exaggeration you might make a point. What elaborate interpretations? Literal text? You do not know how to interpret the bible and you confuse politics with the bible. Jesus was not political. Paul was Roman citizen and knew his rights well. I did not see him in Rome calling for celibacy. Marriage is a simple concept that God ordained and explained to Adam and Eve in the Garden. Apparently they had no problem understanding it and they procreated. At the end of that age we see Noah, his wife, their children and their wives get on board the Arc. In fact they brought the animals in pairs on board with them. Get the point yet?

  • Ron McPherson

    “Trump’s personal conduct is none of your business any more than someone who is sitting next to you in church“

    This coming from the guy who thinks the govt should interfere in the private lives of gay folks by prohibiting them from marrying lol.

  • Ron, all I can say is ask and answered several times. SSM is not marriage in the biblical sense in any way. It is a civil designation masked as the same as marriage between a man and a woman. It is not. Bigoted is a term used by Liberals when they have no facts to argue. I know you know that.

  • Apparently my comments hit home! Good.

  • Obscurely

    Roman citizenship was NOT automatic simply by being conquered — I thinking Jesus didn’t feel like much of a citizen when Rome tortured and executed him. By your logic the Jews should have stayed in Germany and obeyed the law by peacefully marching into the concentration camps. SHAME ON YOU.

  • Your thinking is becoming clouded on this issue. The government is the vehicle that allowed SS couples to “marry.” My point is that the designation ” marriage” is inappropriate for SS couples.

  • Or both of you could stop replying to an issue we certainly disagree on.

  • Ron McPherson

    Bob: People hate the judicial system because they didn’t ban SSM

    Ron: Why?

    Bob: Because it’s against the Bible?

    Ron: Well, so is the prohibition against adulterers remarrying. Should those marriages be banned?

    Bob: No

    Ron: So it’s not really about the Bible then?

    Bob: Yes, it’s about the Bible.

    Ron: But the Bible speaks against adulterers remarrying. Why do you apply the Bible for one group but not the other.

    Bob: Because the Bible is against SSM because it doesn’t align with the Bible’s definition of marriage.

    Ron: So this really is just about the Bible then?

    Bob: Yes

    Ron: So because you think the Bible is against SSM, you’re against it as well and think it should be outlawed then.

    Bob: Yes

    Ron: So you’re also against adulterers remarrying and think that should be against the law too? After all that one is for sure in the Bible.

    Bob: No

    Ron: So it’s about the Bible with one group but not about the Bible with the other group. Then either that’s hypocritical or you’re being bigoted.

    Bob: Shut up liberal.

  • David Cohen

    Ah, now you are feigning dumb in order to preserve a shred of credibility. I have made my point clearly and repeatedly. When it comes to condemning homosexuality, you have pointed out that the text is very clear on that. When it comes to Paul’s view on marriage and Numbers 5:11-31, suddenly the words printed on the page are not good enough and need to be interpreted by experts (i.e. people who agree with your assumptions.)

    So how can the words printed on the page be taken at face value in some cases and not in others? The uniting factor here is clearly what The Party commands. The Party demands that gay people be kept as second class citizens, and if the words on the page support that, they get quoted. The Party also demands that abortion be condemned and heterosexual marriage be lauded, and when the words printed on the page do not support that, they must be “interpreted by experts.” And when someone points out that is what you are doing, you screech “you are confusing politics with the bible!” Thus you engage in the favorite conservative dodge: accuse the other guy of doing what you are doing.

    And, again, if believing that marriage is ordained by a deity makes you happy, you are free to do so. The problem comes in when you try to portray this belief as objective fact. Historical and anthropological evidence does not support you on that.

  • Obscurely

    OK Bob, you’ve made it abundantly clear you’re a shill for Trump and will deny to your grave the facts of his amorality that are a matter of public record. I pray daily for those millions whose livelihood and well being are being sacrificed to Trump’s vanity and narcissism.

  • Ron McPherson

    Why should you care? That’s their own private life. Just like Trump’s is nobody’s business right?

  • Ron McPherson

    Of course we disagree on it. The issue is why you insist you’re not being bigoted but rather being biblical against SSM. Yet you step away from the Bible when it comes to straights.

  • Ron McPherson

    Do you just make this stuff up as you go?

  • Obscurely

    Bob, you’re obviously not even reading my responses to you (e.g., I didn’t vote for Hillary). My country doesn’t disgust me, just the elected leaders who undermine and betray its values. Were you equally respectful of Bill Clinton’s “privacy” when he was president? Because I wasn’t, and thought he should have resigned or been removed from office — his amorality was just as destructive to our country as Trump’s. SHAME ON YOU.

  • Obscurely

    That’s a cheap shot, Bob — it happens that I’m staunchly pro-life. SHAME ON YOU.

  • Obscurely

    If being “a Christian country” means bowing to false idols like Trump, count me out.

  • When people openly defy God and then try to justify their actions by claiming God supports it I have to comment.

  • While Roman citizenship was more complicated than our system my point remains that Jesus was not a refugee in any sense.

  • Whether or not Jesus and his parents had full citizenship as we know it, Jesus was not a refugee as you said He was. Now who is drifting off point – Holocaust? Shame on me for what exactly? You write with emotion not facts.

  • I am not a shill for Trump; I am a supporter of his agenda and I will defend him from spurious attacks.
    I have said he was a NY playboy; he has been married three times. Yes. but so what? I didn’t vote fort him to be my pastor, my example or my religious influence. I voted for him top clean up the economic mess Obama made in this country and the foreign policy nightmare Obama created in the Middle East and to close the Border in that order.
    Millions of people are depending on him and he now has the economy moving at twice the pace of Obama. Money and jobs are flowing. Wages are rising and optimism is off the charts. Don’t you listen to the economic news?

  • Of course I read your responses. I have responded to you ad nauseam.
    Your idea of when a President should resign or be removed is not what our laws say.
    Destructive to our country is removing God from all public places, allowing abortion to be used as birth control and ruling SSM to be called a marriage. Shame on you for not speaking up on this site about that.

  • Who knew you were pro-life? Why don’t you explain to us why adultery is as bad as abortion then?

  • We are near the end of this age and the country is falling apart in most areas. Families are under attack and Godly values are decried. Trump is trying to restore law and order. He does not want or expect your adoration. He wants your help to make America great again. Should I send you a MAGA cap?

  • David, you are out of your league trying to debate the bible with me. You want the stigma of SSM removed more than you want the ability to have a SSM. We get that; but you don’t get that from God. As far as Abortion it is abominable, detestable in its own right and does not require much thought to understand it is horribly wrong. What is the matter with your thought process on this subject? How can you defend abortion? Why would you?
    I have asked you several times but I’ll ask again: Where did the concept of marriage come from if not the bible?
    Where is your historical and anthropological evidence?

  • Ron McPherson

    You’ll pardon me for not buying the God bit. It seems like you believe that God wants you to continuously look the other way when it comes to Trump and his sexual indiscretions, while simultaneously decrying as immoral the actions of a same sex monogamous relationship between two people who love and are committed to one another. So to you, God apparently is all about accepting wealthy, straight, GOP white males who like to sleep around (providing it’s the opposite sex of course), but not about accepting LGBT folks in a committed monogamous SSM.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    That’s…. hmmm… interesting to hear a Christian claim that it doesn’t matter if his savior exists. Really? For that makes teh bible essentially worthless, if we are only going to be decent human beings. No god is required for anything then. You’ve made your Jesus in your image and have decided that the bible, which your supposed savior agreed with at least in the “laws of his father” is to be ignored. If this entity was a Jew, then he believed in the murder of people who did all sorts of things. He picked and chose just like Christians now.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    That may be the case. You are a typical Christian in that you ignore the parts you don’t like. Again, how should I know your version of Christianity is right. You have claimed so, just like the Christians who don’t agree with you. And pointing out how your claims fail isn’t “hostility” or “insults”. It is pointing out facts. You may not like them, and I understand that. You try to use the Gould claim of seperate magisteria to keep your religion in the face of the fact that it isn’t true. And from other post, that it dosn’t matter if Jesus is real, I wonder about your position.

  • Ron McPherson

    What does “make America great again” mean? For the marginalized who have for decades been victimized by systemic poverty, when was America ever great? To the LGBT who are only now receiving certain rights, was America previously great for them? When minorities were victims of Jim Crow and slavery before that, was America great? When women were denied the right to vote for over a century, was America great for them. When native Americans were shoved off their land, was America great then? Best I can tell, America has always been great to us straight white males though, so I guess there’s that.

  • Obscurely

    I’ve had enough Fox News talking points, Bob — God’s peace to you.

  • Obscurely

    Is there an echo in here? — God’s peace to you.

  • Obscurely

    I’ll take one more crack at your Teflon Bob, and then I’m done. Let’s use your “reasoning” — you said a single adultery/divorce only hurts at most 10 people but abortion hurts millions. But adultery or divorce happens to thousands of families every day, adding up to millions hurt a year — do you see where I’m going with this?

    Now of course you’ll respond that adultery isn’t murder and that’s true. But according to Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount, our thoughts can be as murderous as our actions — that’s God’s standard of sin, designed in part to counter our natural tendency to excuse OUR sins but not those of others. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Him please! God’s peace to you.

  • Obscurely

    Last comment from me for now, Bob — how is Trump’s conduct NOT an attack on the Godly/family values you claim (rightly) is happening all around us? God’s peace to you …

  • Obscurely

    Human beings are always making God/Jesus in their own image, for their own convenience — I don’t mind confessing I do it too, and it’s one of the strongest temptations any Christian faces …

    Would you mind if we changed subjects and talked about the vastly greater domain of things that you and I may have in common? I engage atheists often, not to win them over to my position but to discover that we very often share a humanitarian ethic/agenda, and could work together to make the world a better place for all of us to share if we could somehow overcome our tendency to attack or demonize those who seem so different from us …

  • Obscurely

    Bob has learned well from his master (Trump) — don’t engage with issues, just trash anyone who disagrees with you, mindlessly accuse them without evidence of doing what they accuse you of doing (often with good evidence).

  • Obscurely

    [ Reposting this as it was “detected as spam” for some reason … ]

    With respect, I bracket (but don’t ignore) the parts I don’t like not because I’m Christian but because I’m HUMAN — and being human I don’t claim to know anything more than the little piece of the Elephant of biblical truth I can see/understand for myself, always “as through a glass, darkly.” I practice docta ignorantia, a self-aware ignorance that grants me empathy with every other human being who doesn’t have the full picture of Reality either.

    Also, I’m surprised you seem unaware that not all Christians are fundamentalists who take a literal and inerrantist view of scripture. Many millions of us progressive Christians around the world try to use our (limited!) reason to discern the Bible’s babies from its bathwater — and the attacks we suffer from some Christians for doing so are as harsh as those made by many atheists …

  • American Indians? Slavery? Women Suffrage? You missed Nuking Japan…Trump is not referring to those historical events is he? And he is not the slightest bit responsible for them is he? He is responsible for this country today and he already has the economy booming and this is from all sides not me.

  • No. Adultery is completely contained in individual conduct. It does not have to happen. The individual decides whether or not to participate. Abortion is the active participation of the individual and the corrupt medical practitioner to engage in forcible terminating a life that God created. See where I am going?

  • Sorry. The LGBT is no more loving and committed than any other marriage – and that record is piss poor.
    Why do you focus on Trump other than irrational hatred of the current President. What responsibility do you or I have for his personal life. He has a big job to do and he inherited another large mess left by Obama and his Utopian visions of
    the world. Let him do the job; critique his performance but let this petty, unrelenting personal attack go.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    It doesn’t surprise me that you want to change the subject from your religion being nothing more than a human construct. We may indeed have a lot in common, but I don’t find that it is a good or noble thing to spread nonsense like Christians do. I find it deceitful. How do you think that making false claims as if they are true makes the world a better place? I can work with you but I will not let false claims stand, eve if you think there may be a benefit to them. I don’t like when someone thinks that they can take away people’s right to make an informed decision. I do have a question for you: do you speak out against other Christians when they don’t share the humanitarian ethic we do? In so many cases, I find that Christians won’t confront each other publically because they know that if they admit that part of them are wrong, then they will show that there is really no reason to believe in any of them. I find a lot of Christians tacitly accept the actions of other Christians because of this.

  • David Cohen

    “David, you are out of your league trying to debate the bible with me. ”
    – There’s that arrogance of yours which I noted earlier. Its really laughable, considering that your only response to my points is to say no and layer on insults.

    “You want the stigma of SSM removed more than you want the ability to
    have a SSM.”
    – SSM is already a legal reality. And the stigma is rapidly disappearing as people realize the scare-arguments you conservatives made against it were lies.

    “We get that; but you don’t get that from God.”
    – And, again, I am old enough to remember when Christian conservatives said that their deity was opposed to inter-ethnic marriages. Time and expediency will once again prevail among conservatives, as it has before.

    “As far as
    Abortion it is abominable, detestable in its own right and does not
    require much thought to understand it is horribly wrong.”
    – Your opinion has been noted.

    “What is the
    matter with your thought process on this subject?”
    – I remember when women were being maimed and killed by illegal abortions before it was legal. I have also seen how anti-abortion folks lose interest in fetuses once they are born. It has shown me what a hypocritical joke the so-called pro-life movement is.

    “How can you defend
    abortion? Why would you?”
    – Because I have seen the alternative

    “I have asked you several times but I’ll ask again: Where did the concept of marriage come from if not the bible?”
    – And I have explained twice now, it comes from people wanted social, and later legal assurances regarding inheritances and familial alliances.

    “Where is your historical and anthropological evidence?”
    – So you have asserted that marriage comes from a deity and you are challenging me to prove you wrong. Attempting to shuft the burden of proof is the least of your debating errors.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    Bob has no idea what “roman citizen” means. As usual. And again, Bob, good to see you totally ignorant of your bible. Part of the claims of prophecy that Christians have made up is that Jesus was indeed a refugee; his family had to run from threats of violence. “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.” Of course, this isn’t a prophecy at all.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    and one more Christian who wants to claim the “end of this age” and who will be on his deathbed wondering why his lie didn’t come true. How many have come before you Bob, and funny how Jesus said that only anti-christs will claim that the end is coming and they know when. Again, poor Bob wants to pretend that his god approves of liars, cheaters, adulterers, and people who say that they don’t have to ask forgiveness. Bob is very ignorant of his own religion.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    No, it is not from all sides, and is just one more lie from Bob. This president has been riding on the laurels of Obama, someone he lied about when he said Obama wasn’t a citizen. He bore false witness, but Bob doesn’t care about his bible or what it says. And with these tariffs from the moron, our farmers and manufacturing will tank. Bob needs to lie about the man he follows.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    No, Bob hasn’t read the bible. He claimed it said nothing about his god requiring that adulterers be murdered. He also thinks that there is only one anti-christ. Bob should read the bible http://www.biblegateway.com

  • Jane Ravenswood

    And Bob lies again. It’s great to see such a sad racist try to make crocodile tears about the people he hates.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    This is Bob. Bob has claimed that his god is not against adultery and lied about his bible. Bob forgets that his bible says that killing children is fine, and trying to poison a woman if her husband is jealous is fine too. But he probably doesn’t know that those things are in the bible too. The bible says nothing about abortion, right or wrong. However, it does say that homosexuals should be killed, as well as people who work on the sabbath. Bob picks and chooses what he wants to follow.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    Your god said that no one should get divorced, unless there is evidence of adultery by the woman. Why do Christians like you get divorced? Why does Bob pick and choose?

  • Jane Ravenswood

    Bob is ignorant of history. There has been marriage far longer than his religion. So, Bob, since marriage has been around longer than your religion, it seems that you are lying again. Ancient Egypt had marriage, the ancient Chinese had marriage. The greeks and Romans had marriage. The ancient israelites were polygamous. You are a failure, depending on fear and ignorance.

  • Ron McPherson

    “The LGBT is no more loving and committed than any other marriage – and that record is piss poor.”

    How can you SO miss the point here? The issue is not that all SSM are committed and monogamous. No one claims that. The point is why you would deny the opportunity to those that ARE, while simultaneously looking the other way with respect to Trump’s infidelity.

    “Why do you focus on Trump other than irrational hatred of the current President.”

    Since when does calling out illogical biblical standards over how you view SSM vs how you look the other way on Trump translate to me hating Trump? I’m not unrelentingly attacking him. I’m just unrelentingly pointing out your inconsistencies.

  • Obscurely

    I’m (further) surprised you haven’t heard of post-modernism, our reigning cultural paradigm, whose mantra is “Your truth is not my truth” — there is no univocal Truth (metaphysical that is, not scientific) we can all agree on, just those parts of the Elephant we find convenient?

  • Ron McPherson

    I’m making the point that “make America great again” depends on perspective.

  • Obscurely

    Hey, that actually made a little sense to me! I need to practice what I’m preaching by conceding that (as my grandmother used to say), “Even a blind hog can find an acorn!” :) It’s so sad that under your Teflon exterior you might be a guy I’d wanna have a beer with instead of the douchbag you’re impersonating here?

  • Jane Ravenswood

    Post modernism is solipsistic nonsense for some people who want to pretend that they know some magic secret to the universe. If this is the truth, then no one should be harmed by putting their bare hand in molten steel. I’d be happy to watch while you did that and hear you claim that we have our own “truth” while your hand incinerates.
    Now, how do you think that lying to people makes the world a better place?

  • Ron McPherson


  • So what ya say…are your blinders that efficient…for a sitting president to criticize our allies, the FBI and U.S. intelligence agencies while lavishing praise on our adversary, who we know meddled in our democracy and poisoned those folk over in the U.K. with a nerve agent that only has Russian fingerprints…is of an egregious nature of unethical proportions to this nation of ours. It is not only a backstabbing affront to our allies, but is a destructive effort to divide the U.S. and destabilize our democracy. Something Putin, ever since he was in the KGB has only dreamed of doing until Trump came along…

    Tell me why Trump always insists on having one-on-one meetings with Putin, except for a Russian translator or one-on-one meetings with Russian diplomats except for Russian photojournalists…to give away more classified info like he did with Lasrov and Kisylak?

  • Obscurely


  • Obscurely

    Of course we’re talking about metaphysical truth, not hard science — they’re the truths we have debates about, like the validity of religion as a way of understanding a dimension of human consciousness that cannot be reduced to your random materialist account. For example, we can have different opinions about whether it’s really a good thing to remove your hand from the molten steel — why bother saving yourself in your account? why is ANYTHING worth doing over something else? why is the world worth making a better place? There’s also the psychological aspect of religious faith, lauded by an atheist in this recent NY Times article:

  • I’ll remind the President to add that disclaimer to his punch line….

  • Ron McPherson

    It’s interesting how folks can sometimes fall into a type of zealous fundamentalism to the extreme on either side. On the one extreme are the religious fundamentalists whose greatest cause seems to be trying to convince others that their view of God is the only correct one. On the other side of the spectrum are zealous atheists whose greatest cause seems to be trying to convince others that there is no God. There seems to be something unhealthy on either side.

  • Questioning

    And by the same token …. Abortion is completely contained in individual conduct. It does not have to happen. The individual (vis a vi the woman) decides whether or not to participate. Adultery is the active participation of the individual and his/her fellow adulterer to engage in breaking one of God’s Top 10. See where I am going?

  • Thanks. It’s been fun…

  • Ron McPherson

    Yeah, his followers probably would think that was funny

  • Ben’s blog has 1158 comments this morning. Probably one of the largest number in some time?

  • Ron McPherson

    I remember one had I think over 6000 but can’t remember the topic

  • Need your help a bit.
    Another respondent asserts that marriage is not from God but from custom:

    “I have asked you several times but I’ll ask again: Where did the concept of marriage come from if not the bible?”
    – And I have explained twice now, it comes from people wanted social, and later legal assurances regarding inheritances and familial alliances.
    And, again, if believing that marriage is ordained by a deity makes you happy, you are free to do so. The problem comes in when you try to portray this belief as objective fact. Historical and anthropological evidence does not support you on that.”

    Is that the justification LGTB are using to get around the fact that marriage is from God?

  • Ron McPherson

    I don’t think all LGBT folks are necessarily trying “to get around the fact that marriage is from God.” LGBT Christians in a SSM likely believe their marriage is recognized by God just as much any other marriage. Btw, I agree with the other poster on this. But for full disclosure, I have friends who would agree with you over me on this and would do so in their dying breath.

  • R/R 2016

    Jesus’ referent for “the least of these” is not who you think:


    Also, Jesus was not uninitiated in matters of security as the walls of Old Jerusalem, as was common for cities then, had gates to help manage people and commerce flow and at which persons were subject to customs enforcement. The Romans also made use of walls and other defence fortifications.

    Neither were Jesus and his family refugees by most legal definitions. They returned home.

  • Oh really, just as I s’posed…there are numerous articles and more on these Trumpoid topics. By the way big boy with the little britches…it was indeed 17 agencies, yeah, maybe four did the actual legwork, but all the rest concurred with the findings…what are you saying the rest of our intelligence agencies shouldn’t believe the four’s results and conclusions to their investigations.

    Ya kinda remind me of that Beatle song, ya know, the one that goes like this, “Cry baby cry make your mother cry, you’re old enough to know better…cry baby cry…

  • Jane Ravenswood

    no, we are not. Your claim “your truth is not my truth! there is no Truth we all can share in, just those parts of the Elephant, my dear!” isn’t about metaphysical “truths”. It is about reality, e.g. the “elephant”. You now try to move the goalposts, Ob, when it is obvious that your claim fails. You have no “truth” and cannot show it to be so. Each theist does claim that they have the one and only truth, and they all have the same evidence: none.
    You have yet to show that there is any “dimension of reality” that exists that isn’t what we all experience. But please do so if you can. And you have done a lovely job at trying to claim that there is no reason for anything without your god, a very common Christian tactic. Sorry, Ob, but atheists aren’t by default nihilists although many Christians desperately hope this is the case. It’s a good thing to remove ones hand because pain isn’t pleasant (except for maybe masochists). I like living so that is why I would “bother saving myself.”. And I enjoy myself when I help others and do thinks that I like. The world is worth making a better place because I and those I love live in it. And I love thanks to my very biological brain. No god needed, no magic needed. In my experience, nothing terrifies a theist more than a happy contented atheist. Is this your problem, that I exist and I show that your claims and your belies aren’t as valid as you might think? And agian, why do you think lying to people makes the world better place? It’s notable that you won’t answer this question.
    I like this world, as much of a pain as it can be. Now, I’ve heard a lot of Christians insist that this world is fallen, is awful, that they want to get out of it as soon as possible. The question is: why don’t they take jobs that would be beneficial but have a high mortality, like clearing landmines, etc?

  • It was not 17 agencies.
    The others did not verify anything.
    The spread to the 17 agencies was from Obama to give a wide dispersal to all the Trump conversations they unmasked.
    Yes that is exactly what I am saying.

    By the way Lady Jane had a complete meltdown.

  • First article on google, Politifact changed it’s mind from 17 to 4.
    “17 intelligence organizations or 4? Either way, Russia conclusion still valid”

  • Fox News and Trump has ya all wrapped up cowpunch…the Air Force Intelligence, Army Intelligence, Central Intelligence Agency, Coast Guard Intelligence, Defense Intelligence Agency, Energy Department, Homeland Security Department, State Department, Treasury Department, Drug Enforcement Administration, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Marine Corps Intelligence, National Geospatial Intelligence Agency, National Reconnaissance Office, National Security Agency, Navy Intelligence and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence all agreed with the FBI, CIA, NSA and Director of National Intelligence that indeed, Russia meddled in our elections.

    Your vainlessly trying to ‘trump’ relevance over quantity, there Bobby…simply because either way the Russian intelligence conclusion remains valid…Dan Coates even says so with a “red alert” forbearing Russia is gonna attempt it in our 2018 and 2020 elections…what has Trump done to stop it…nothing…nothing but praise for Putin even after Rosenstein forewarned Trump of the 12 Russian military intelligence officers have been indicted by a grand public jury…

  • Obscurely

    Ma’am … I regret you’ve chosen to ignore my request that we discuss things we may have in common. I’ve tried very hard to engage you as a fellow human being, and I’ve respected your views however different from mine, and have never intended to persuade you to change them. I’ve only wanted to understand your perspective and be understood myself — as I don’t feel that respect has been reciprocated, I must stop our exchanges and wish you all (continued!) happiness in the future … Respectfully, The Reverend Michael Truesdale

  • Obscurely

    Thanks for your comment! I can’t open the CT article because I’m not a subscriber, but would like to read it sometime. As for who Jesus was referring to with “the least of these,” a progressive Christian interpretation would generally want to extend that phrase to anyone today’s society considers an outcast or denies a minimum standard of living. I personally believe Jesus himself would approve that extension, otherwise he’d have to make a pretty long list of categories to cover “the least of these,” past, present and future?

    I also don’t believe Jesus would deny help to anyone in dire need just because they didn’t meet today’s “legal definition” of a refugee. As Paul says, the letter of the law can kill us, but the Spirit of it always gives life (2 Cor 3).

  • Patrick

    And now Pussygrabber Von Gropenfuhrer is blaming America for the “bad” relations with Russia. Talk about groveling! He is truly Putin’s cockholster!

  • R/R 2016

    There’s no reason to speak for Jesus where Jesus speaks for himself. I understand the progressive Christian interpretation, but it ignores the intended referent of “least of these” which is explicitly stated as those of the Son of Man’s “brothers” (v. 40). Whether that means either the disciples or more generally Christians is up for debate, but the speaker obviously has in mind the judgment of “the nations” who mistreat those of a closer proximity to Jesus than some loosely waved label of “outcast”. Stated elsewhere by Jesus: “You will always have the poor with you.”

    You also said Jesus was a refugee, assumingly in the modern sense of the word, which he doesn’t meet by simple definition. It’s just more bastardization of the text for the purposes of partisanship and political posturing.

  • Obscurely

    With respect sir, I wasn’t “posturing” to make political points — for what it’s worth (in case it’s relevant), I support Trump wanting to build a border wall, but I also insist on enforcing our current laws allowing refugees to apply for asylum in the USA. Also, are you claiming your political views don’t influence your faith?

    As for progressive “bastardization” of the gospel text in question, I have heard many conservative preachers (e.g., Southern Baptists and non-denominational evangelicals) use this text to urge their church members to help the poor, the sick, prisoners, basically anyone in life-threatening need, including those who are NOT Christians. (Is that not how the text is homiletically applied in your church?)

    If you need other texts as a scriptural literalist (not sure if you are one?), how about the parable of the Good Samaritan? or the Sermon on the Mount? And are you seriously suggesting Jesus only wants us to help fellow Christians? And just because Jesus said there will always be poor people because of the hardness of our hearts, are you saying we should therefore NOT help them?

    Can you please join me finding common ground between us, instead of burning bridges? — for example, what’s your (Christian) solution to Central American families fleeing life-threatening situations in their own countries? (We won’t call them ‘refugees’ if that helps you get over any possible political objections.)

  • R/R 2016

    You don’t build common ground by being presumptuous: (1) I said *partisan* bastardization. (2) The basic confession of Christ as Lord is a political statement. (3) You don’t have to be a “literalist” to see that a parable, being its own genre, has a unified point and import: parables about charity are sufficient to provide lessons about charity, parables about mercy are sufficient for lessons about mercy, etc.

    Simply put, there’s nothing honest about taking a copy-paste phrase and painting it across an extraneous political feud about customs protocol in an attempt to shame someone out of their opinion. Brother.

  • Obscurely

    OK, I agree with your three points as the start of some common ground between us, sir — now can you address yourself to any of my questions? Thanks …

  • Ron McPherson

    I’ve also noticed that with some conservatives (not saying that’s R/R), helping the poor and marginalized in our day is somehow neutralized with applying historical context (ie Jesus was addressing only his original hearers and their historical situation; not us). But historical context is not only ignored, but often outright rejected by those same conservatives when it comes to what eternal life and the kingdom of God would have meant to his original hearers. It’s like kingdom principles and orthopraxy go out the window in favor of a heavenly afterlife and orthodoxy.

  • Obscurely

    Amen, brother! but as C. S. Lewis famously said, if your problem with the church is it’s full hypocrites, there’s always room for one more — because as someone else said, the church is not museum of saints it’s a school for sinners (including me) …

  • R/R 2016

    I don’t care to answer questions posed in bad faith, but I’m bored so:

    1Q: Also, are you claiming your political views don’t influence your faith?

    1A: I’m saying my political views are my faith and vice versa. I’ve already stated why.

    2Q: Is that not how the text is homiletically applied in your church?

    2A: Yup. And it’s still just as incorrect.

    3Q: How about the parable of the Good Samaritan?

    3A: Jesus’ definition of “neighbor” as used in Torah.

    4Q: …or the Sermon on the Mount?

    4A: Subordination ethic despite the rural Jew’s insistence of revolt.

    5Q: And are you seriously suggesting Jesus only wants us to help fellow Christians?

    5A: No. I’m saying “the least of these” has an intratextual referent that is not given to your blatant misapplication. My goodness.

    6Q: And just because Jesus said there will always be poor people because of the hardness of our hearts, are you saying we should therefore NOT help them?

    6A: When Jesus said “hardness of [our] hearts” it was about divorce, not about the poor (seriously — try reading). He also said there was a more pressing matter than the poor, which in his case was the symbolic anointing of his body.

    7Q: What’s your (Christian) solution to Central American families fleeing life-threatening situations in their own countries?

    7A: Sounds like the (Christian) solution is to stop putting Central American families in life-threatening situations in their own countries.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    I’m perfectly willing to discuss what we have in common. That doesn’t mean I will not point out when you make a false or baseless statement. And no, Mike, you haven’t respected me. Someone who has respect doesn’t try to lie to the person that they are speaking with and make false attempts to claim that atheists are nihilists. I do understand you. You are no different than any other Christian. I’ve asked you why I should believe your version and no others. You’ve tried the “why do anything”, and you ignore my points. The world is a better place in that fewer and fewer people think it is okay to believe that might equals right is a basis for moral arguments. That’s all you have, Mike. Bye, there will always be someone like me to stand up to such nonsense that harms people.

  • How lame…when Obama was president where was your patriotism then…besides after today’s Finland summit meeting with Trump/Putin…ya got nothing…

    Besides Trump, the entire GOP are traitors. Even Trump’s own staff admits Trump appeared weak to Putin. It’s worthless debating with you…Trump could take a dump on your thanksgiving table and ya would still praise him…KGB Putin could take a dump on Trump’s thanksgiving table and he would still praise Putin. We’re done here with Republicanism’s facade patriotism…

  • So if I, a self-described Christian, have a different view on the immigration debacle and express it on this view I am damaging the “Christian witness” according to you. How is that even possible? In this country we distinguish between church and state. I did not say you and your church should not accept all the immigrants you want. I am saying that our country has the absolute right to control our borders. These are two different things.

  • Good point. Of course they were not refugees. Neither are the vast majority of illegal immigrants.

  • Simple. Trump’s values are a reflection of society in general. Divorce is endemic. Lying is incalculable. Adultery is commonplace. Stealing is sport. To say that Trump is somehow attacking family values is a gross over statement. Trump is responsible for running the government not teaching our children. Parents are responsible for that and many have abdicated that to the schools. Look in the mirror.

  • Let’s see some proof of that ridiculous statement, There has been marriage far longer than his religion, please.
    As far as being a failure I would look at what you write. It’s nonsense. You have no support or offer of proof for any of those statements. The fear and ignorance comment isn’t even related to the topic.

  • If the entire GOP are traitors why aren’t the Democrats in power?
    And we are done with Progressive/Liberal Democrats for another 30 years.

  • Mr. James Parson

    I am past that. It is all made up. Except for Pastafarianism. It is real.

  • Matthew

    Distinguish between church and state?? Tell that to all those on the religious right who serve in the U.S. government in some capacity and who also allow their religious views to influence public policy. The current Israeli/Palestinian U.S. foreign policy playbook is written in evangelical dispensationalist theological language for Pete´s sake!

    Have you ever read “The Scandal of Evangelical Politics” by Ronald J. Sider?


  • Everett Kier Jr

    Bob, you have a far higher tolerance for abuse and arrogance than I do. A dog can always whip a skunk….usually it just ain’t worth it.

  • Obscurely

    Thanks for your answers, sir — so you never allow any interpretation or application of scripture (guided by the Spirit of course) beyond what a text meant to its original hearers? or interpret one text with another? — because in an earlier post you applied Jesus’ saying, “The poor you have with you always” to “the least of these” text. Also, why are you holding me to a higher hermeneutical standard than your own pastor? if your church is misapplying scripture it seems you’d find another one — the answers are none of my business but I’m curious as a pastor, if you’re willing to answer …

  • Obscurely

    As you well know Bob, it’s not your political view of immigration I object to, it’s your denying that Jesus would want us to help “the least of these” we today call refugees — imagine what non-Christians (who may already be skeptical of the church) would think when they read something like that here …

  • Obscurely

    Ma’am — since you continue to misrepresent (or misunderstand?) my views and have concluded I’m “no different than any other Christian” (whom you seem to consider dangerous advocates of “might makes right”???), I don’t see how we can proceed to more constructive dialogue.

  • R/R 2016

    I said “stated elsewhere”. And what is this, an interrogation? How about you answer my question: Why don’t you hold yourself to a higher hermeneutical standard, Pastor?

  • Quite frankly I don’t understand your point of view at all. Refugees are a subset of illegal immigrants and they are few. You appear to be calling all illegal immigrants Refugees? You have views that you feel are Christian that are not compatible with existing US Immigration Law and somehow believe our Government is at fault. Not at all correct. There is a much bigger issue here than you admit. If you want the US to expand its illegal Immigrant population from the 11 million I hear reported to 50 million or so by draining Central America to be in line with your view of Christianity you will need the support of the American people to do that. That can only be done through legislation. For eight year the Liberals controlled our government and they could not get anything passed. Why vilify Trump after 18 months as if it is all his problem? Presidents don’t make laws that is up to Congress. When Trump offered to support a plan for the Dreamers the Liberals rejected it. That is because this issue is strictly political not humanitarian. Politicians only care about their Power and they could care less about us. It’s about power, longevity and votes; nothing more!

    As to the atheist non-Christians on this site from what I read they could care less about Christianity, civility, common sense or common decency. I have no sympathy for them whatsoever. Who in their right mind does not understand that there is a God who created everything and controls everything. Perhaps they should read about Nebuchadnezzar and get a clue.

  • Obscurely

    As I said sir, your answers are none of my business, I was just curious, and hoping to foster mutual understanding. Your question reminds me of that joke, “Do you beat your wife often?” :) But here’s my answer anyway — I’m a pastor in a progressive denomination that believes part of the Holy Spirit’s ministry to the church is helping us interpret and apply scripture beyond its meaning to the original hearers — if you have no respect for that kind of hermeneutic (practiced in your own church, if I understand you), or feel that progressive Christians are somehow inherently inferior to your own style of faith, then it will be difficult to have further dialogue?

  • What do you call the actions of the Trump/Putin summit…do you agree and still defend Trump or not…no more of your terse evasive run arounds; so go ahead and defend Trump with your feckless mentality. Ya got the last word, because I’m done here with your blind and ignoble drooling comments…

  • R/R 2016

    If you really are curious (or lying), then you must first concede that there is a higher hermeneutical standard than your own. Which is it, Pastor?

  • Based on your rousing endorsement of my previous comments all I can say is your understanding of Foreign Policy is simply non-existent. You want to criticize the President every day for everything be my guest; you are not alone. But you are wrong.

  • Obscurely

    How do we agree on what the highest standard is? there would have to be some higher authority/Person we both serve that could decide for us, but since we’ll both say that’s Jesus, how do we move forward, sir?

  • Obscurely

    PS — I forgot to ask your view of the Spirit’s role in understanding scripture?

  • Obscurely

    Jesus Bob, when do you SLEEP?

  • R/R 2016

    That wasn’t the question. You said:

    “Also, why are you holding me to a higher hermeneutical standard than your own pastor?”

    Either that question was genuine (and thus my standard is higher), or you were being deceitful (and thus never really cared about finding common ground). Which was it?

  • apoxbeonyou

    This is why I now consider myself agnostic. Though I do tend to lean one way or the other, from time to time.

  • Obscurely

    Either my standard is lower or I’m a liar — thanks for the big menu!! ;)

  • R/R 2016

    Have a nice day, Pastor.

  • Ron McPherson

    It makes me want to handcuff the fundies to the over-the-top-atheists and force them to sing in unison “We Are the World”

  • Ron McPherson

    Now I know what Paul must have meant in Romans 12:18, “If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.”

    Key words there being “if it is possible” heehee. Sometimes it just ain’t

  • Questioning

    A “higher hermeneutical standard” is still, after all, nothing more than an opinion, and I would opine that the term “higher hermeneutical standard” has about as much weight as an airy turd. Unless of course one was “high” and perhaps on a different meta-physical plane when it was arrived at. Then it might be an honest statement. I would rather see it referred to as a “different hermeneutical standard.” In either case, I neither think your standard is lower, nor do I think you are a liar. :>}

  • Ron McPherson

    “A “higher hermeneutical standard” is still, after all, nothing more than an opinion.”


  • We are on Pacific Standard time.

  • Obscurely

    Thanks for your comments. Yes I agree, there are different methods of interpreting scripture, not inferior or superior ones! — yet a strictly originalist hermeneutic could limit the interpreter’s application of a text to our contemporary context? at least that’s the debate I was trying to have with R/R 2016 …

  • Questioning

    “yet a strictly originalist hermeneutic could limit the interpreter’s application of a text to our contemporary context” Agreed.

  • Matthew

    All we are saying … is give peace a chance :-)

  • Jesusisdemocrat

    And you need yo back up your posts!

  • Jesusisdemocrat

    Again, cite!

  • Jesusisdemocrat


  • Jesusisdemocrat


  • PedasiPaul

    Despite the flipflops Corey listed, I have yet to find an evangelical Trump supporter who admits doing a flipflop since Bill Clinton was in the White House. Either they have conveniently forgotten when they insisted that “character counts,” or they don’t want to admit it.

  • I have a life as I escaped the abortion doctor the Liberals sent after me.
    So I use part of it to educate the Liberals on this site like you. #WalkAway

  • Why. When you read what you asked for you will refuse to believe any of it.

  • Good because I need to spend more time studying Russian. According to every Liberal pundit today President Trump is giving control of the USA to Russia….

  • Jane Ravenswood

    Bye Mike, I’ve not once misrepresented your views. And no, you are no different than any other Christian. You have nothing to support your claims. You cherry pick your religion and your bible to make it in your image. And yes, having the moral base of “might makes right” aka my god can do anything because he is god, and if he tells me to do something I’ll do it because he is god is very dangerous. Remember Jim Jones? How many parents have murdered their children because they were sure that their god told them so (and this god didn’t stop them)? If you don’t find that dangerous, that is your taken stance. Don’t be horrified if someone hold you accountable for it.
    All you seem to be doing Mike is trying to hide behind politeness so you can play the martyr. “Oh the mean ol’ atheists is daring to show how I’m wrong, and I’m *just* trying to change the subject so no one knows I follow my own religion. I just want to talk about GOOOOOOOD things. How dare she point out I’m wrong.”
    Buh-bye Mike.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    Wow, nice to see the stupid flag fly again. We have the problem that Jews and Christians have no idea when their supposed religion started. We don’t even have evidence for the suppposed creation, the flood, the exodus the cruxifiction, and for any offered dates, no evidence is found and Christians offer many date, they can’t even convince each other. The earliest reference to Israelites as a people (not as some country) is around 1200 BCE. Modern humans, like us, have been around for 100’s of thousands of years. The bible itself mentions “cities” that existed before the supposed creation since Adam’s children went to them. Your bible is a mess. Please do read it and at least be not quite so ignorant.
    Again, Bob, your own bible has that polygamy was what god wanted as marriage. Per your bible, polygamy is what this god blessed, Jacob, Joseph. It’s great to know that you haven’t read your bible and have no idea what it actually says, so you choose to lie about it. The marriage of a single man and woman wasn’t in your gods laws, that cover having to murder people who work on sundays, that you can sell your daughter, and who has to marry whom if a husband dies. We have the eggyptians around for thousands of years before the supposed “Israeites”, who are a canaanite culture that was always in the area, giving lie to the exodus myth. We have the Xia dynasty in a similar time around the Old Kingdom of Egypt. And funny how none of these cultures noticed a magical flood, another thing that cannot be shown to have happened at any time in the past.
    On a similar vein, the supposed kindoms of Israel and Judah did exist. But for places with the “wisest man in the world”, the myths about them are wrong since this civillization is singularly bereft of any innovations, or artifacts.
    And fear and ignorance is related to the topic of why christians like you act the way they do. You lie, you ignore your bible when convenient, and you follow anti-christ out of that fear and ignorance.

  • Modern humans, like us? You flatter yourself Janie…

  • Steve Bailey

    Thank you, Ben. You are a positive prophetic voice in every Biblical sense. Your message needs to be heard loud and clear. The moral and theological inconsistency of Evangelical America is a stunning phenomenon to watch. American Evangelicalism has lost all credibility as a Christian expression. I never thought I would see this unfolding so quickly and so dramatically.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    I’m a modern human. So are you. And it’s not flattering or insulting. We’re modern humans. such a nice little attempt to be insulting.

  • Prophets are sent by God to warn the people. Exactly who is Ben warning? The people reading this blog? What is the warning? That the American Evangelicals are calling out the Progressive Liberals?

  • Obscurely

    Farewell, Jane — I’m glad you’ve found happiness as an atheist …

  • Obscurely

    No Bob, Steve means white evangelicals like you are worshiping false political idols — get some sleep, willya?

  • Steve Bailey

    Hopefully Ben’s words and likeminded dedicated Christians will continue to speak prophetically until they are heard. There is no longer a Christian division between Evangelicals (“conservatives)” and “liberals”. These terms have now been rendered meaningless in the American religious reality. All Christians must fight the evil if this dangerous American civil religion just as the Hebrew prophets denounced the corrupt religious systems of their day in preparation for Jesus announcing the arrival of the Kingdom of God – a reality that current American Evangelicalism does not understand or practice. The warnings to American Evangelicalism are clear in Scripture. It’s leaders, instead, choose to abuse Scripture. That’s the reality.

  • Matthew
  • Ron McPherson

    “All Christians must fight the evil if this dangerous American civil religion just as the Hebrew prophets denounced the corrupt religious systems of their day in preparation for Jesus announcing the arrival of the Kingdom of God – a reality that current American Evangelicalism does not understand or practice.”

    I believe this to be SO true. The Evangelical conservative agenda and their support for Trump is eerily similar to the state of affairs admonished by Jesus in first century Judaism.

    The wealthy Sadducees, in league with governmental authorities (Rome), exercised both religious and civil (Sanhedrin) authority over common Jews. The Pharisees influenced rank and file Jews throughout Palestine within synagogues (local assemblies) by preaching rigid Torah obedience in the hopes of currying favor with God to hasten the establishment of their version of God’s kingdom. The result of these actions resulted in exclusion of the “sinners” and “outcasts.” The onerous demands from the religious authorities (which extended to civil matters) left them feeling isolated, abandoned, and hopeless.

    And then came Jesus to show us the heart of God preaching the law of love to welcome in these “sinners” and “outcasts”, who he said would actually enter the kingdom before the religious authorities. And instead of these religious authorities heeding the warnings that God desired mercy (not sacrifice), they instead dug in their heels by using the govt (Rome) to silence Jesus’ message of love, all the while believing God was on their side.

    Masses of evangelicals today have no clue about the underlying events in Jesus’ day because the gospel message in America has been crafted over centuries, passed down from generation to generation. And it’s rarely, if ever, framed from a historical context, but rather has been molded over time filtered through a contemporary western lens.

    A friend of mine, as a conservative even, once admitted that the American church, of all biblical characters, most resembles the Pharisees. Fortunately he recognized it. Most don’t. They genuinely believe, as the Pharisees did, that God approves of their message, mindset, theology, and doctrine.

    If anyone needs proof, all they need to do is read through the comment sections on many of these blogs. Go preach Jesus and you’ll get pushback from conservative biblicists. Instead of filtering all the Bible through Jesus’ words and actions, they instead filter Jesus through the rest of the Bible. In other words, many think they’re actually worshipping God when instead they’re worshipping the Bible. They don’t see the difference.

  • Sorry. White/Black is just another Progressive construct aimed at dividing the country. There is no White/Black issue in this country. That era is over and we need to get past it. If I had to judge between Evangelicals or Progressives I would look at their works not their words. Baby killers would not do well.

  • Obscurely

    SHAME ON YOU, Bob — 1) Jesus is NOT a Republican … 2) destructive and FALSE words like yours above are hurting the church in America …

  • The Church in America has hurt itself with its slow slide into lawlessness. You can see it on this site displayed vividly. Trying to use the NT and Jesus to influence politics is counter productive since there is no agreement here on what the bible says/means to begin with/from. Extrapolating from confusion generates more confusion.

    What did Jesus say about politics: Obey the authorities because God put them in place and pay your Taxes. He did not say try to resist/undermine government because you don’t like certain policies.

  • Ron McPherson

    I’m still in shock over, “There is no White/Black issue in this country. That era is over and we need to get past it.”

  • Ron McPherson

    “The Church in America has hurt itself with its slow slide into lawlessness.”

    I disagree. The church in America has hurt itself with its failure to live by Jesus’ greatest commandment- to love God and neighbor. The Pharisees preached that Israel had hurt itself by sliding into lawlessness as well. Their solution was rigid Torah obedience to curry God’s favor believing that would restore the nation. Jesus sharply rebuked such thinking by instead preaching mercy, not sacrifice; preaching love for even enemies, compassion, forgiveness, peace, humility.

  • Obscurely

    WTF?!? — it’s like going down a rabbit hole with u Bob

  • PedasiPaul

    == refugees are a subset of illegal immigrants ==
    Not unless they enter the country illegally. They have a legal right to go to an office on the border to apply for legal admission as refugees. Do you think Christians should try to influence government policy when it comes to treatment of refugees, or not?

  • Obscurely

    … a dark dirty perversion of reason and grace kind of rabbit hole, Bob …

  • Obscurely

    YES, just answer the EFF-ing question, Bob!!!!

  • Obscurely

    Just read this interesting take on our topic (link follows):
    “To say that Christian faith is forever rooted in Scripture, yet distinct from Scripture, is both conservative and progressive. Conservative in that it recognizes the inviolability of Scripture. Progressive in that it makes a vital distinction between the living faith and the historic text. But to claim that Christian faith is one and the same with the Bible is a fundamentalist mistake that is ultimately untenable.”
    Pastor Zahnd’s exe-Jesus is beautifully balanced orthodoxy!

  • Those refugees aren’t the ones that started the uproar are they?
    Of course they can try to influence policy.

  • PedasiPaul

    My question is whether Christians can do it, but whether they should try to apply Jesusian values to refugee policy.

  • Ron McPherson

    It’s both hilarious, hypocritical and disturbingly ironic when conservatives complain that the U.S. has slid into lawlessness while simultaneously defending this POTUS.

  • Obscurely

    Hilarious and absurd, yes — but also dangerous to our common democratic life :(

  • Obscurely

    Wonder how Bob would feel about that if he were not white …

  • Ron McPherson

    Very sad

  • If your question is whether Christians should try to use a “Jesuisian” filter to formulate change existing immigration laws, I would say that is fine. You need an organized effort to promote changes like that and an understanding of those laws. Hysteria won’t change anything.

  • That is why it perpetuates. White guilt is Black power and it needs to stop and now.

  • White guilt and Black power are the two sides of the same issue. There is no problem in this country. It is shamelessly promoted by Black Power brokers like Sharpton and Jackson and Booker for personal gain.

  • Paul said Grace is not license to sin. The Churches say it is. Human reasoning is flawed; that is why the bible exists.

  • Israel failed to keep God’s commandments and were ultimately rejected by God. Their history from that point forward is illustrative. Grace is not license to sin. That is the result of your analysis of Jesus and sin is the reason we are in the state we are.

  • Ron McPherson

    “Israel failed to keep God’s commandments and were ultimately rejected by God”

    Specifically which commandments did they fail to keep?

  • Ron McPherson

    Easy for us white folks to say

  • Ron McPherson

    Which churches say that grace is a license to sin? I’ve never been in one that has.

  • The Sabbath…

  • Yes you have. Only the Catholic Church includes commandment keeping. All the Protestant churches
    believe saved by faith through Grace and the commandments have been nailed to the cross. And I doubt
    you go to any church?

  • Ron McPherson

    “Only the Catholic Church includes commandment keeping.”

    Which commandments do the Catholics keep?

    “All the Protestant churches believe saved by faith through Grace…”

    Well, most use Paul’s letters to build a theology on, so if that’s your point I would agree.”

    “ And I doubt you go to any church?“

    Lol. And you would be wrong.

  • Ron McPherson

    “The Sabbath”

    Geez, that’s what the Pharisees kept accusing Jesus of. Did you study under Shammai? Is this one of the commandments you and the Catholics keep? Does this mean my catholic neighbor can no longer mow his yard on Saturday?

  • Matthew

    I have often said that evangelicals preach strong grace to get you in, but then strap on duty and commandment keeping soon afterwards … :-(

  • Which Catholics: Progressives or Conservatives?
    Paul’s letters are not at odds with Jesus – just their interpretation.

  • You don’t seem to comprehend. The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week. Israel changed the day.
    How you “keep” it is distinct from whether you recognize it. Christianity does not recognize the Sabbath. This they freely admit by the way. The Protestants defer that question.

  • Ron McPherson

    So progressive Catholics and conservative Catholics obey a different set of commandments?

  • Ron McPherson

    Nailed it!

  • Ron McPherson

    So you think God rejected Israel cause they changed the day of the Sabbath?

  • No. Progressive Catholics tend not to obey the commandments they don’t like just like Progressive Christians. They also go around preaching that it is ok because, because…. Conservative Catholics don’t really do any better they just have guilt over their indiscretions and hide their disobedience.

  • Not me. You can read all about it in the OT (you know the book you don’t accept).

    Exodus 16:28 “How long ye refuse to keep my commands and instructions.”
    Jeremiah 3:8 “I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery.

    It’s really not complicated. Sin has consequences except in the mind of Progressives.

  • Obscurely

    Too bad we can’t understand and apply the Bible without our God-given human reasoning, Bob …

  • Obscurely

    Earlier you wrote, “the commandments have been nailed to the cross,” and now you’re saying Israel was rejected for not keeping them — which is it, Bob?

  • Obscurely

    You’re forgetting the sin we progressives (and the Bible and Jesus) keep a sharp focus on, Bob — failure to love our neighbors as ourselves (refugees, the poor, victims of power and privilege, etc)

  • Obscurely

    So do you have a problem with specifically “Black power” Bob, or just people of color in general sharing power in our democracy? — because Jesus was a person of color too …

  • Obscurely

    SHAME ON YOU, Bob — speaking as a pastor, let every non-Christian reading this understand that Bob Shiloh’s opinions belong only to a latently racist fringe element of American Christianity.

  • Ron McPherson

    Wow Bob, you must have breakfasted on barbed wire today. You’re very cheery this morning. First you say you doubt I go to any church (I’ve attended regularly for 5 decades without interruption, and served in leadership for 3 decades, not that any of that is any sort of redeeming quality of mine). Then you claim I believe that grace is a license to sin (I don’t recall ever claiming such a thing), then you claim I don’t accept the OT (I’m not even sure what that means other than that’s your way of articulating that I may interpret certain passages differently than you).
    At any rate, since you keep insisting that you keep the commandments and us pathetic progressive Protestants do not, I’m still waiting on you to tell us which commandments do you and the Catholics keep that we don’t?

  • Ron McPherson

    So you keep God’s commandments?

  • Ron McPherson

    Bob has to be playing a joke on us.

  • God said it best:
    Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Look at the comments on this site if you want to see the fulfillment of that scripture.

  • No I did not say that. I said that is a Protestant dogma.

  • You keep forgetting what God is going to say to Progressives, Matthew 7:21-23 I Never Knew You.
    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

  • I have a problem with Progressives calling anyone who they oppose “Racist” and with Progressives who enslave Blacks by telling them they cannot compete and need help to survive trying to preserve a permanent underclass.

  • See, “Racist” is the tag line of true Progressive who cannot debate the facts. This label is used to prevent White people from speaking out about the horrible job Progressives have done in the large cities they control. Well guess what, that tag is for you!

  • I would ask you the same question but it is none of my business?

  • The doubt was based on your many answers over time.
    You may not believe that you approach Grace that way but I am sure you do.
    If you say you believe in the OT I would accept that but I think your belief is qualified isn’t it?
    Pathetic Progressive Protestants (PPP). I love that! Catholics are bound by their religion to keep the commandments. Protestants are not based on their concept of Grace and Works.

  • Ron McPherson

    Lol! You are so transparent. You don’t give a rip about being considerate of my business. Just today you claim I don’t believe in following the commandments but you apparently do. So I ask which ones you follow. We all know why you don’t answer. You backed yourself into a corner because you lofted yourself up while tearing others down. You got called on the carpet so now you dodge.

    How considerate of my feelings in saying you won’t ask me the same question. Like you even give a crap. This coming from the guy who has spent his day judging me as one who doesn’t go to church (I do), says I believe that grace is a license to sin (I don’t), and that I don’t accept the OT because I may believe differently as you. Good grief.

  • Ron McPherson

    “Catholics are bound by their religion to keep the commandments”

    Which ones?

  • Ron McPherson

    Physician, heal thyself!

  • Ron McPherson

    “I have a problem with Progressives calling anyone who they oppose ‘Racist’. “

    They don’t. But they might to someone who makes racist statements.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    yep, and I doubt that too. Oh well, your words are between you, me and if it exists, your god.

  • Pennybird

    My point is that if you vote for the candidate who promises to end abortion, in all probability you are also voting to cut programs that help the poor. This is what Republicans do and they are proud of it. Look at some of the politicians who claim to be “pro-life” and you will find them to be more pro birth than actual life, because those things that sustain life usually interfere with tax cuts to millionaires. You get the package deal.

    I didn’t mean to imply that any one of us would walk by a baby crying in a dumpster, which even Trump might not do. Though I’m not certain. He’d probably need to ascertain the baby’s ethnicity before acting.

  • Since you keep asking about which Commandments are you saying you don’t know them?

  • Bones

    Black people should become white.

  • Bones
  • Bones

    Nah, Bob’s admitted in another thread that blacks are stupid.

    And Bob doesn’t realise those verses actually apply to him who sold his soul to a false messiah.

  • Bones

    If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and looks like a duck, chances are it’s a f***ing duck.

    In the Trump world, it’s a lobster.

  • Bones

    So now that Trump is doing his best to destroy US alliances and not defend countries in Europe which may be attacked (because Putin), does that mean my country won’t be sending any of my family to fight America’s shitty wars eg my uncle in Vietnam and nephew in Afghanistan?

    Oh and you can p*ss your bases off from my country too if you’re not going to help defend it.

  • Ron McPherson


  • Ron McPherson

    You mean all 613?

  • This comment shows you don’t know the OT. You are just parroting a comment from another who does not understand the OT. 613 indeed!. Catholics are taught to keep their 10 Commandments not 613. Catholics are supposedly the first Christians coming straight from the crucifixion. Protestants came out of the Catholics. I don’r remember the Bull having 613 Commandments did it now?

    The bible is the Word of God in written form. It is Spirit and Truth; part history; part prophecy and all about the Plan of God for Man. Without the bible no one would know anything about anything. The OT and the NT are seamless and together tell us everything.

    But you know that – you just don’t believe it because like all Liberals you know better than God. Good Luck.

  • Pennybird

    It’s certainly an idea to explore, and Bill Clinton did, but it’s off topic. Many women who get abortions cite their economic insecurity for the decision. Although my post cited direct gov’t assistance, Republicans have a knee jerk reaction against employer regulations, unions, and minimum wage increases. More policies to reduce income inequality would enable more women to carry their unplanned pregnancies to term, but that is reflexively called socialism and they’ll have none of it.

  • Ron McPherson

    C’mon, really?

    You say, “This comment shows you don’t know the OT” later followed by, “OT and the NT are seamless and together tell us everything. But you know that – you just don’t believe it…”

    So which is it?

    Here’s the thing. You come on here spouting biblical platitudes and assertions that most everyone on here is intimantly familiar with and have heard probably no less than a million times. You also say patently untrue stuff like there are no black/white issues in this country and then when challenged you blow it off as some liberal tactic.

    Likewise, when challenged on your biblical assertions you dig in your heels and retort with assigning pejorative labels with things like those ignorant “liberals” and “ progressives” and “Democrats” and “Protestants” and “leftists” and on and on. That’s apparently your only defense when someone offers information that might cause you to think or that brings tension to your entrenched dogma that most of the rest of us have already grappled with.

    Btw, Catholics are not taught to obey the 10 commandments. They mow their yards on Saturdays just like the Protestants.

  • Biblical platitudes – instantly familiar with? Hardly. Most on this site are biblical illiterates. All you have to do is read the comments. Most have grappled with? Who are you kidding? I notice you have no problem reading and responding to my comments. I would say of all the replies I see a handful that have actually studied the bible and mostly those who spout other’s nonsense like it is fact. When challenged they never respond with facts. Why? Because Liberals don’t deal in fact only emotion. “All we need is Love.” That is your mantra isn’t it?

    Black/White issues – made up by the Left to sow unrest in this country. Yes. Just look at the debacle in the NFL and ask yourself how a group of millionaire men can be swayed to disrespect the country that gives them their wealth and for what? There is no reason for that behavior except to promote the Left’s agenda of discord. It suits the Left’s purpose to have the NFL players on display and treated as “victims.” No one believes NFL players are victims of anything except for Progressives and the Liberal Sheep that it controls. The Left have destroyed or made worse everything they touch and this is just the latest example.

    Last, you obviously missed a good Catholic education and don’rt understand their religion at all. Any Catholic grade schooler can recite the Ten Commandments at will unlike you or most on this site. You are ignorant of Catholic beliefs as well. The Catholic Church changed the day of worship from the Sabbath to Sunday on its own authority and all the Christian churches that flowed from it (including yours) followed suit. Why is it that you worship on Sunday? You don’t know – you just do! Try reading “Rome’s Challenge: Why Do Protestants Keep Sunday?” and you will then understand why your comment about mowing a lawn is ignorant and shows your lack of understanding this very basic issue. Try defending your church’s decision to worship on Sunday from the bible. You can’t and no one ever has. It is a man made change telling God to accept it. Guess what He doesn’t have to does He?

  • Ron McPherson

    “Because Liberals don’t deal in fact only emotion. “

    I guess that makes you a liberal then.

    “Try defending your church’s decision to worship on Sunday from the bible. You can’t and no one ever has. “

    I don’t try, nor do I claim it’s biblical. That’s precisely why the Catholics do not teach (biblically speaking) to obey the commandments. Thanks for proving my point. Like you don’t present new information. Everybody knows the change from Saturday to Sunday is man made. That goes for Protestants and Catholics. Btw, Sunday is often conflated with Sabbath keeping. Sunday is the Christian day of worship. The Jewish Sabbath is not presented on the same terms to Israelites as Sunday’s are to Christians.

  • Bones

    Lol Bob spent the obama years bitching about him and claiming he was a secret muslim.

  • Kristin

    Did you eat a lot of paint chips when you were a kid?

  • If you don’t have something on point then criticize the messenger; this is the Liberal mantra on display for all to see.

  • Obscurely

    Jane, since you refuse to accept me at face value, let me pose this question purely in the abstract — would it challenge you on some level if you actually met or knew Christians who didn’t want to convert or change you and just accepted your happiness as an atheist as I do?

  • Jane Ravenswood

    I accept you as what you have presented yourself as, Mike. No, it wouldn’t challenge myself image at all if I met a Christian who didn’t want to convert or change me, and accepted me as an atheist. Do you know any? The reason I ask is that Christians often cite Psalm 14, claiming that atheists are fools, etc. Now, do you believe this part of your bible or not? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+14&version=NRSV Is it within the definition of “christian” to accept that an atheist is happy and content? I was a Christian and I don’t recall anything that accepts that as a good thing. You see, Mike, I know you are probably a nice guy. You’ve invented your religion and your god in your image. And this shows me that Christianity is nothing more than humans wanting to claim that some divine being agrees with them and cares for them. I don’t need that kind of imaginary external validation. I’m happy with myself. I have found that Captain James T. Kirk and Steve Rogers to be much better ideals than some pale Galilean.

  • Jesusisdemocrat

    The irony in your post here is unbelievable! LOLOL

  • Jesusisdemocrat

    ok, read slowly:

    -Sorry, the FISA court REQUIRES to specifically state what the request is based on to be part of that request.

    -The request HAS to state the above and how it is the basis for
    the request.

    -The “Steele Dossier” was requested by and initially funded
    by THE REPUBLICANS who were then running against Trump in the Primary.

    -REPUBLICAN Legislators were largely responsible for the House’s
    investigation and impeachment proceedings of Nixon.

    -“Watergate” was only partly about the break-in. The
    so-called Plumber’s Unit and subsequent activities of that group of people were an important part because it showed that there was an entire part of the admin and later of the reelection committee that was devoted to illegally obtaining information on perceived enemies of Nixon and potential enemies of Nixon and the press…and…”

    -VERY IMPORTANT: The Steele Dossier was
    a minor part of the FISA court request.

    -BUT, the most IMPORTANT piece of relevant information is
    that I asked for a citation of news about TRUMP BEING WIRETAPPED BY OBAMA!!!…Iknow AM radio and Alex Jones may not agree, but NEWS is not an opinion piece… and this would be true even if the op-ed contained actual information not spurious at best and mostly…just completely wrong. Trump stated the Obama Admin wiretapped him (or his microwave did it) in Trump Tower AND NOT as a part of the Russian investigation.
    The FISA application has been released to the public and is available online. You can DISPROVE the AM radio nonsense on your own, without having me to have to continue to do this for you.

    If, however, you do not remember what we were discussing,
    just scroll up a bit.

  • Jesusisdemocrat


  • Jesusisdemocrat

    Not sure what Obscurely is so upset about…

  • Jesusisdemocrat


  • Jesusisdemocrat

    So you are angry that you were almost aborted and now wish to be a troll on intellectual Christian sites that have nothing to do with…?!!!!

  • Try to keep up. The FISA court applications were released over the weekend – although very redacted”
    1. The Steele Dossier was the bulk of the application and the reason the warrant was granted.
    Hillary Clinton paid for the Steel Dossier and this fact was cleverly hidden from the Court and this was illegal.
    2. The Obama administration used the pretext of a counter-intelligence investigation to lie to the FISA court to get that warrant on Carter Page to spy on the the Trump campaign and they did.

  • Bones

    “The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week. Israel changed the day.”

    That is just a straight out falsehood.

    Mind you I didn’t have high expectations….and you didn’t disappoint.

  • Bones


  • Bones

    Yeah because Jesus’s family had been granted a visa to enter Egypt.

    And lol what happened to the city of Walls?

    I mean those walls did a great job of keeping the Babylonians/Assyrians/Greeks/Romans out.

    Another one who doesn’t know his arse from his elbow..

  • Bones

    Many of those refugees are Christian….they happen to be latinos….

    So yeah even your own interpretation condemns you.

    Well done!

    “It’s just more bastardization of the text for the purposes of partisanship and political posturing.”

    lol…..Walls are great because Jesus knew about walls. Jesus also voted republican and was killed by progressives…..

    Nice bastardisation and partisanship going on there.

  • This site is not an “intellectual Christian site(s).” It is a place for people of like misguided minds to support each other in lawlessness; abortion and deviant sex being two of the biggest examples. Intellectuals do not resort to grade school tantrums, invective and boorish behavior to debate.

  • Bones

    “Jesus’ definition of “neighbor” as used in Torah.”

    Were other Jews…..

    Leviticus 19
    17 ‘You shall not hate your fellow countryman in your heart; you may surely reprove your neighbor, but shall not incur sin because of him. 18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.

    That’s what Jesus turns upside down….Amazing that people don’t get that.

    Bit hard to love gentiles when you’re about to go and annihilate them.

    “5A: No. I’m saying “the least of these” has an intratextual referent that is not given to your blatant misapplication. My goodness.”

    Aaand given that the majority of Latinos coming to the US ARE Christian, you’ve just condemned yourself..

    Well done.

    “Sounds like the (Christian) solution is to stop putting Central American families in life-threatening situations in their own countries.”

    Lol… we don’t have any responsibility for you even though we f*** your countries up. How about the massive volcano in Guatemala. You gonna blame god for that one.

    Yeah good Christian ethics there.

    Well I wasn’t hopeful of much after your biblically illiterate nonsense about walls and refugees.

  • Bones

    Lol my standard is obviously higher than yours.

    At least I don’t make shit up.

    btw Jesus was a progressive….OUCH!

  • Bones

    So you’d turn Jesus away as an illegal immigrant.

    Why am I not surprised.

  • Bones

    Seems our guy with the higher hermeneutic didn’t know much about Leviticus (who is my neighbour?) and his own interpretation of Matthew 25 condemns him in that most illegal immigrants are Latinos – Christians…..

    Oh and Jesus wouldn’t have a problem with walls….because they worked so well….

  • Bones

    “Bob, I know that you have said you are a biblical scholar, ”


  • Bones

    ” God created it and explained to man in detail.”

    Ok so when did God explain this to say – the Australian Aborigines?

  • Bones

    No surprise that liars flock together.

  • Bones

    “Jesus was not political.”


    Jesus was a progressive killed by the hardline fundamentalists and occupying military force.

    But he wasn’t political….

  • Bones

    Why are people wasting their time with Bob Shilo?

    It’s clear that trumpism is a cult.

    And you can’t reason with cultists.

    Bob’s trolling and doesn’t give a shit what you think.

  • Obscurely

    Jane, I see you’re perhaps not used to engaging with progressive Christians (vs fundamentalists)? — because there are millions of us liberal Christians who wouldn’t consider you a fool or even misguided (to address your query about Psalm 14). Most progressive churches aren’t in the conversion business, although we’re happy to welcome visitors and inquirers. If Buddhists, Muslims and yes, atheists are happy the way they are, we’re happy with that too! — and we do hope to get the same respect in return …

    Progressive Christians read scripture allegorically, psychologically and anthropologically — and we don’t think it ultimately matters whether Jesus is exactly the figure the gospel writers depict out of their own biases and agendas. We’re also deeply suspicious of the kind of crude anthropomorphism you so rightly critique. The only hell we believe in is the one people make for themselves and others on this earth.

    As for ethical role models, we would say that Jesus — whoever or whatever he was — is for us not least a major step forward in human moral evolution (as were the Buddha, Confucius, Mohammad and others). We’re happy also to embrace wholly fictional moral characters (minus their violence!) like Captains Kirk and America (Captains Picard and Janeway are my personal favorites).

    Speaking of Star Trek, that’s the kind of human future we progressive Christians would like to build shoulder-to-shoulder with (e.g.) atheists — would you have a problem working with us to do that?

  • Everett Kier Jr

    You offer your opinions as if your knew what you are talking about and perhaps with even more delusion you see to think if it really makes a difference what you think. You do make interchange a rather abysmal enterprise.

  • Ron McPherson

    “Why are people wasting their time with Bob Shilo?”

    The only explanation I can come up with is that we are Masochists = Those who willingly subject themselves to unpleasant or trying experiences.

  • Ron McPherson

    “Ok so when did God explain this to say – the Australian Aborigines”

    Through the KJV Bible at the beginning of time. Gosh Bones, you don’t know jack about history

  • Ron McPherson

    The guy who turned away Mary and Joseph at the inn probably voted for Trump

  • Adrian

    Looking at some of these comments, I’m amazed at the verbal and mental gymnastics some “Christians” will go to so they don’t have to love their neighbors as Jesus commanded them. Why not just admit you don’t want to help anyone, and that you’re in it for yourself, and be done with it?

    This is why Christianity is dying.

  • Bones

    No. You were caught out lying.

    Thats a fact.

    Unfortunately for you many of us do know what we’re talking about.

  • Bones
  • Obscurely

    Sadly, this pastor concurs — “By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another” (John 13:35) — implying everyone will know we are NOT disciples if we fail to love each other …

  • Obscurely

    Thanks for this — looks like the Gospel in action to me!

  • Bones

    “higher hermeneutical standard” = you must agree with me because it sure as hell has nothing remotely to do with the text.

  • sandidad

    The supposedly righteous Left who savagely murders almost 2000 babies 24/7, 201,650 this year alone and sells their body parts to the highest bidder. and has murdered over 60 million babies since Roe vs Wade. The righteous Left who voted for a Muslim president who mocks God and praises Allah, The righteous Left who supports a president who allowed perverted men into women’s restrooms. The righteous Left who denied God in their 2012 DNC 3 times. The righteous left who took God out of our schools and allowed the 5 Pillars of Islam to be taught in our schools. The righteous Left who supports LGBT lifestyles and are now promoting paedophilia. I could go on but it would fill a book. I believe you Godless liberal loons might get the picture but I doubt it.

  • Astreja

    May I direct your attention to the commandment “Thou shalt not bear false witness,” sirrah?

  • sandidad

    Astreja, may I direct you to the 5th Commandment “Thou shalt not kill”. The Godless, baby killing, socialistic, communistic, Islamic Democrat Party has supported Abortion since Roe vs Wade in 1973. Obama did mock God and the Bible and has praised Allah on numerous occasions. Obama even had an Islamic prayer room set up in the White House for him and his Islamic appointees to have prayers on Fridays. Obama stopped having Christian prayers at the White House. Research the 2012 DNC and watch the video. They denied God three times. Do your own research if you don’t believe me on the. As a Christian I don’t lie and everything I wrote is the absolute truth. Sto being in denial and research the truth and stop listening to the fake news media. If you don’t believe my statistics on abortion research abortion in America in 2017 and you’ll find the truth. Note: Just because our evil government passed the 14th Amendment to legalize abortions does not mean God approves. All babies are created by God the moment it is conceived because God allowed for it to be conceived. Period. Jeremiah 1:5 ESV “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you. God Bless you!

  • Astreja

    I see your 5th Commandment and raise you Matthew 25:35-40.

    What are you doing to support women who can’t leave their jobs to raise children? Do you support food banks, low-cost housing, daycare and medical services, and a living wage?

    At very least, are you prepared to subsidize good-quality birth control for women who can’t afford it, preventing abortions by preventing unwanted pregnancies? I do.

  • Mr Kish

    What a rubbish article. This man is so far left his irrational hatred fro Trump blinds him to truth

  • Mr Kish

    Spot on

  • Mr Kish

    What false witness?

  • Mr Kish


  • Mr Kish

    Yep and he condemned LGBT. Oh dear

  • Astreja

    Accusing the LGBT community and politically left individuals (including myself) of supporting pedophilia, when we actually oppose it; accusing Obama of mocking the god he believes in and of allowing men into women’s washrooms.

    I cannot and will not forgive libels like that.

  • Mr Kish

    Well certainly Obama mocks God and the the whole transgender thing is evil and does allow men to use womens bathroom. That is LGBT to a core!

  • Astreja

    Birth control *does* prevent abortion.

    Regardless, I fully support the right of all women to deal with their own pregnancies — to bear or to abort, as they see fit — with zero interference from anyone else.

  • Mr Kish

    In fact all you have to do is google LGBT and paedophelia and you get “scientists” saying paedophelia is just like being “born” gay or straight.

    All are born straight and it is sin through external circumstances which turn people into other sexual desires

  • Mr Kish

    So you support baby murder?

  • sandidad

    Exactly, Widuran.

  • sandidad

    Read and weep, that is if you can read! The following is what American liberals are doing to our once great nation: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/white-and-in-the-minority/ar-BBLhL9U?li=BBnb7Kz

  • Mr Kish

    Thanks I say what I see and I do not see much in this article.

  • Mr Kish

    This is my prayer too! Amen

  • sandidad

    Christians do more to help people than our government. Christians help people in need but don’t give them a life line to never succeed that’s passed down to generations. Socialism via governments destroys people’s initiative to help themselves. They become dependent on the government to take away from those who produce and give it to people who don’t. Soon the producers quit producing! Total Marxism! Why can’t you people learn from history? Socialism has always been a complete failure and will continue to fail. Venezuela is a perfect example.

  • sandidad


  • Astreja

    No, I support the right of a woman to remove an unwanted fetus from her reproductive system — preferably in the first trimester, when it’s still a relatively undifferentiated clump of tissue without a functioning nervous system.

    No woman should ever be forced to incubate and give birth against her will. No exceptions.

  • Astreja

    Pedophiles — who can be of any sexual orientation — are committing a crime by violating the rights of other individuals when they act on their desires. An adult LGBT couple in a consensual relationship is not violating anyone else’s rights.

    And no, people are not all “born straight.” That is ridiculous.

  • Astreja

    A transgender person who mentally identifies as female *is* female, as far as I am concerned.

    I really don’t care what genitalia the person in the next bathroom stall has, as I am not in the habit of peeking under walls.

  • Astreja

    Eva, you are never going to be able to prevent abortion. Women who do not want to give birth will find a way. Put all that energy into supporting already-born children.

  • Mr Kish

    Yes but some LGBT “scientists” are saying paedophelia is something you are “born with” so his statement is partially correct.

    People are definitely born straight. Science proves this. This is why 99% of people are straight. But we know the LGBT activitists want to reduce this percentage hence they confuse school children and some are trying the gay thang!

  • Mr Kish

    So you support killing babies. Ok

  • Mr Kish

    No that female has a mental illness and should be treated as such and healed.

    People are born male or female. There are no other combinations.

    Your comment about genitalia shows you have no argument

  • Astreja

    I suspect that we will never see eye-to-eye on this matter. Thank you for the conversation, Eva.

  • Astreja

    Are you a registered psychologist or psychiatrist? If not, I gently suggest that you do not attempt to diagnose a mental illness. Even a registered therapist would want to meet an individual in a clinical setting before diagnosing them.

  • Astreja

    Out of curiosity, what are your views on other forms of killing? Do you support the death penalty, for instance?

  • Astreja

    Could you kindly link me to a peer-reviewed medical journal that supports the claim “People are definitely born straight”? (I have access to a medical library, so kindly provide the citation in standard form with title, author, journal, year of publication, etc.)

  • TinnyWhistler

    That’s an American thing. The whole “one drop” principle is a natural consequence when you develop a social system that includes a “race” based underclass who are fully sexually available to the upper class men. We wouldn’t want there to be any consequences for raping your slaves, so any kids you father are legally black and thus sub-human and enslavable.

    It’s been very persistent as an idea in both black and white communities in the decades after the Civil Rights Movement. I think there’s an SNL skit about a part Asian guy going up in front of a court to determine what bits of heritage he was Asian enough to claim. The skit ended with a part black guy going up against a similar court and when he started to explain his ancestry in detail he got interrupted with “You’re black”

    It’s one of those stupid cultural things that shouldn’t be a thing but is.

  • TinnyWhistler

    Unfortunately negativity really didn’t work for Hillary. It seemed like she was running way too much of her campaign on “I’m not Trump” which wasn’t enough. It didn’t appeal to people she assumed were her base who were looking out for number one and were thinking back with rosy glasses to the good old days of coal mines and horrible working conditions. Bernie was popular because he was FOR things. He got shafted by the party and Hillary didn’t do half of what she could have to get Bernie supporters on her bandwagon instead of flipping to Trump out of anger or abstaining because they felt jilted by the party and thus “both candidates are the same.” Add that to the existence of the rabid Trump fanbase and ding ding! we have a winner.

    The problem is that usually the complete nutjobs don’t make it past the primaries. I’m seriously considering registering Republican (currently Independent) so I have a say in those.

  • TinnyWhistler

    No point in me touching the bathroom comments. You haven’t actually responded to people who already have.

    “bashing people who have a different opinion than you” …….what? Have you READ the gospels? Jesus was a super snarky person who spent his time walking around and bashing the “religious leaders!” How on earth do you interpret him calling them a “brood of vipers?”

    Jesus wouldn’t condone demonizing white people, nor white men. However, he also instructed us to care about the plights of people who are disadvantaged in society, rather explicitly in Matthew 25 if you want a citation. “I was hungry and you cut my food stamps, I was a refugee and you denied me asylum, I was sexually assaulted and you laughed me off, I was shot and you defended my executioner” and so on. It’s not about demonization. It’s about whether or not as Christians we’re called to do something about the plight of the disadvantaged in our world. If that something involves accountability for law enforcement, so be it. If it involves shifting blame from rape victims’ clothing choices to their rapists, so be it. I could go on but you get my drift.

    Re: abortion, I’d like to see as few elective abortions as possible (I refuse to argue with anyone about cases of rape or cases where the mother will die). If people cannot legally have abortions in the US, they will either illegally have them or go to other countries. In both cases, making abortion illegal does not actually reduce the number of abortions to 0. How do we cut down on the number of people who elect to have an abortion? What are their reasons for having an abortion? Most of the time, it’s because she didn’t want to be pregnant. How do we prevent unwanted pregnancy? Again, making it illegal for people to have sex won’t actually prevent them from having sex. For a more realistic tactic, how about we teach people how to prevent pregnancy? Comprehensive sex education and access to birth control do prevent unwanted pregnancies. That’s how we prevent people from wanting to have an abortion.

    Of course none of that matters if your goal isn’t preventing abortion. If your goal is sticking it to people who have sex you don’t approve of, continue to push for legislation like requiring waiting periods and ultrasounds that don’t actually solve the problem of people being pregnant who don’t want to be.

  • TinnyWhistler

    “When you talk about sex education you are involving yourself in the sex lives of others”
    Then any conversation about sex is a breach of personal privacy. Including telling your kid to not have sex. That’s unrealistic. People are going to hear messages about sex just because they exist in society. It’s pretty much unavoidable unless you raise your kids in complete isolation and most people are reasonable enough to not do that.

    Unfortunately, educators don’t have the ability to dictate the choices of those they educate. Just saying, “Don’t have any sex until you’re married and financially stable enough to support however many children you might conceive” doesn’t work. People still have “incorrect” sex even when they are told not to.

    While most people may “know about” contraceptives I disagree that that’s enough. Simply knowing about the existence of contraceptives is not knowing about how to most effectively protect oneself from STDs and pregnancy (for example, use multiple forms of birth control. Learn how to use a condom correctly to prevent tearing. Learn what medications can interact with the pill and render it ineffective. Learn that pulling out and “timing” DO NOT WORK. Learn what forms of non-penetrative sex can pass on STDs and how to protect oneself while engaging in them) nor is it the same as having access to them. If a 17 year old is bound and determined to have sex with their crush but can’t buy condoms for fear mom or dad may find out, can’t go on the pill or get an IUD or implant because parents won’t take them to the doctor for it, what are they going to do? Some of them may choose to just not have sex, many do choose to go ahead anyway. Being REALISTIC about the risks and mitigation factors is the best way to get people to listen. Leaving it at “use a condom or bad things happen” doesn’t cut it.

    I can’t speak to Ireland, but I know in many places in the US, our sex ed is atrocious. It is very very bad. The US also has much higher rates of unplanned pregnancy than many to most other “developed” countries, though I wasn’t able to find a by country breakdown to directly compare with Ireland.

    Of course, all this aside, politics being what they are in the US, even if I agreed with you 100% on everything regarding abortion, I cannot vote for most prolife politicians because it means voting for someone I agree with on 1 issue and disagree with on 10. So it’s a bit of a moot point in the US.

  • TinnyWhistler

    Curious: What about the women talking about Trump assaulting them? Should they be believed?

    I’m of the opinion that Bill was horribly in the wrong and deserved his impeachment. Democrats standing behind him was horrible. Unfortunately, as I was not old enough to vote at that point I wasn’t in any position to really have a say.

  • TinnyWhistler

    “Before I formed you in the womb”

    So…before conception? This reads more like it’s talking about Gods’ omniscience and how He is not bound by time. If you disagree with that, what do you think “formed” means? Which stage of pregnancy?

  • TinnyWhistler

    No, women crave power too. It’s just that for most of human history men have had more power and thus more ability to effectively get more.

  • Astreja

    No peer-reviewed journal citations? I accept your admission of defeat. ;-)

  • Astreja

    I don’t believe you. I’d prefer to hear it from someone with professional expertise in the field.

  • Astreja

    Well, at least we agree on something.

  • David Cohen

    Wow, you sure are scared of non-White people, aren’t you?

  • There are either 19 or 24 women who came forward. The primary reason they did was to derail Trump’s election. In that they failed. If they had a legitimate claim they squandered it in my opinion. Case in point: Jessica Leeds.

    Leeds told the Times that Trump grabbed her breasts and attempted to put his hand up her skirt while she sat beside him on a flight more than 30 years ago. “He was like an octopus,” she said. “His hands were everywhere.” His actions led her to flee from her first class seat to the back of the airplane. “It was an assault,” Leeds said. Four people close to Leeds corroborated her account to the Times.

    On the other hand:
    Jessica Leeds. Claims Trump groped her on an airplane. One person corroborated having heard the story.
    Eyewitness rebuttal: When the story came out — one of the first that did — a man who claimed to have been on the flight alleged that Leeds was the aggressor. The man making that claim, Anthony Gilberthorpe, has a history of making unproven claims, including that he had once regularly provided underage boys to members of Britain’s Parliament for sex parties.

    30 years ago, Four people close to Leeds corroborated her account to the Times, One person corroborated having heard the story, a man who claimed to have been on the flight alleged that Leeds was the aggressor. This does not make me believe Ms. Leeds.

  • i agree with you. He was to be part of God’s Plan. When the time had come he was conceived. The larger point is that God expected him to be born not aborted. This concept is at odds with those that delude themselves saying that a fetus is not a life until born. Which is also a crazy and sadistic concept of the first order.

  • sandidad

    I’m not scared of illegals, I’m sick of the illegal invasion, dolt! What don’t you understand about the concept of people coming to America legally? No other nation in the world would tolerate what Americans have to endure with you ignorant people. Common sense and logic elude you!!!!!

  • David Cohen

    “I’m not scared of illegals,”
    – Yeah, sure

    “I’m sick of the illegal invasion, dolt!”
    – Illegal immigration is currently at a historic low, dolt!

    don’t you understand about the concept of people coming to America
    – Oh I understand the situation fine, For decades American capitalists have been welcoming people from the southern nations on temporary work visas as a cheap source of labor. Then Saint Ronald of Reagan ended the program on the pretense of preserving jobs for Americans, jobs like field labor and ditch digging which Americans did not want. It was conservatives who created this “crisis.”

    “No other nation in the world would tolerate what Americans have
    to endure with you ignorant people.”
    – You claim to be a Christian. Let’s see what your Bible says about welcoming foreigners.
    Wow. it looks like you are ignorant of the Bible you claim to revere as a Christian

    “Common sense and logic elude
    – If saying that makes you feel like a brave widdle Christian, then you just go ahead.

  • Astreja

    NARTH? Family Research Council? No. I was thinking of something more along the line of the New England Journal of Medicine.

    I recuse myself from this conversation, as you seem to be hopelessly in love with your bigotry. Far be it for me to stand between you and the love of your life.

  • (((GC)))

    Amen. Abortion should be available on demand and without apology.

  • Questioning

    Yes there are… some people are born with physical attributes of both sexes. Your comment, “people are born male or female” is patently false.

  • Questioning

    Knowing people with mental illness and knowing “about” mental illness does not qualify anyone to be an expert regarding mental illness. Not even close… I know black people, I know some stuff “about” black people. I know women, I know some stuff “about” women. I would never make assumptions or claim to speak knowledgeably about either. Your points could not stand straight lying down. Whether you believe me or not is irrelevant.

  • Questioning

    I had hoped, foolishly I know, that I would not see ignorance like this again on these boards. Read and weep yourself….

    “The supposedly righteous Left who savagely murders almost 2000 babies 24/7, 201,650 this year alone and sells their body parts to the highest bidder. and has murdered over 60 million babies since Roe vs Wade.”

    When Roe vs Wade became law, the vote in the Supreme court was 7 to 2. Of those 7, 5 were appointed by Republicans, so no, it was not the “Savage Left” who implemented it. You mentioned Google somewhere else…. Well use Google to educate yourself about the “selling of body parts to the highest bidder.” You seem to think this is a normal practice… that just ain’t so.

    “The righteous Left who voted for a Muslim president who mocks God and praises Allah, The righteous Left who supports a president who allowed perverted men into women’s restrooms.”

    Good grief… President Obama was not a Muslim. He was and remains a high character, decent family man, a Christian married and devoted to one woman, quite unlike the serial adulterer/sexual predator who currently inhabits the white house. As far as restrooms, those “perverts” have been in your restrooms all along. Get over it.

    “The righteous Left who denied God in their 2012 DNC 3 times.”

    Again, use Google and try to understand what really happened. It was not as bad as all that.

    “The righteous left who took God out of our schools and allowed the 5 Pillars of Islam to be taught in our schools.”

    My goodness, when and where was God taken out of our schools, as if He could be. Do you mean to tell me your little children cannot pray in school? Our society is secular. Our government is democratic, not theocratic. Schools have to educate all the little children, the Christians, the Muslims, the heathens, the Hindus, the Buddhists, the atheists, and so on. Our society is very diverse. All kinds of religion are talked about in our schools, so is evolution. You want to live in a theocratic society? Then convert to Islam and move to the middle east, or start your own.

    “The righteous Left who supports LGBT lifestyles and are now promoting paedophilia.”

    There is no such thing as an LBGT “lifestyle”. Is your heterosexual orientation a lifestyle? When did you choose to be straight? Every reputable medical institution I can name now agrees, homosexuality occurs naturally and is immutable. Every gay reparative institution that ever existed is now closed in recognition of that fact. Sure, we do not yet know the causes, there may be multiple, that does not mean one day we won’t know. In the meantime these people deserve to be treated as equals in our society. Promoting paedophilia? Really? Where do you get this stuff? There is no link… none, between homosexuality and paedophilia. They are not even close to the same thing. The only people promoting paedophilia might be the Catholic church.

    Somehow, I feel your ignorance could fill a book, but I will still offer some well-intentioned advice. Educate yourself… wherever you are getting these ideas, whether it be your friends, your family, your pastor, Breibart, Focus on the Family, Faux News, Family Research Council, et al, try to broaden your knowledge. These institutions are biased, and yes, there can be bias on the other side too. Don’t settle for what your tickling ears want to hear. You might find that you are more calm and less fearful…. or you can simply choose to remain ignorant.

  • Questioning

    Look it up dumbass….

  • Questioning

    Likewise dumbass…

  • Questioning

    I wonder if you will look it up and find you are wrong…… because you are.

  • Questioning

    Nothing is more than the vapor and lies you are spewing.

  • sandidad

    Your ignorant reply proves you need to educate yourself, Questioning. Where I find my information is far more reliable and trustworthy than the alphabet fake news you rely upon. The truth isn’t in them or you. All of you are habitual liars. You couldn’t see the truth if it smacked you in the face. You are so ignorant you still can’t comprehend 8 years of Muslim Obama’s lies, corruption and multiple acts of treason or the 30+ years of the Clinton crime family’s lies, corruption, and money laundering scheme through their Clinton Foundation. Plus, Hillary destroying over 30 thousands emails to cover up her treasonous acts. I bet you voted for Obama, not once but twice, and “Killery” Hillary? President Trump’s election was a massive movement to stop the lying, corrupt, Godless, Communist, Islamic Democrat Party from destroying America’s great Republic. If Hillary had won she would have completed Muslim Obama’s job of turning America into a Sharia Law compliant oligarchy. To quote Forrest Gump: “Stupid is as stupid does” and you and your drug induced brain dead liberal cohorts fit that description!!!!!!

  • Questioning

    So you are choosing to remain ignorant, as I suspected. Just so we are clear, I did vote for Obama…. once. An ignorant assumption on your part. I never mentioned the Clintons, but I see your fearful hysteria would naturally lead you in that direction. Good luck stopping the lying, corrupt, Godless, Communist, Islamic Democrat from destroying America’s great republic. Don’t forget your tin foil hat……

  • Joslyn Renfrey

    I don’t know if this is satire, which is disconcerting…

  • sandidad

    Your comment “Good luck stopping the lying, corrupt, Godless, Communist, Islamic Democrat from destroying America’s great republic” sounds like you are in favor of losing our republic. Let me remind you and all of your LGBT and P friends once we lose our republic and America becomes an Islamic nation under Sharia Law all of you perverts will be the first ones to be beheaded. To quote Ole touchy Joe Biden “And that would be a good thing”.

  • sandidad

    It isn’t satire and it should be very disconcerting!!!!

  • sandidad

    This is a perfect example why we need a secure border but liberal loons don’t care if other people get hurt or killed just s long as it doesn’t directly affect them. Let one of their family members be a victim though then they would be rioting in the streets.https://www.facebook.com/RushLimbaughRadio/photos/a.133030307035709.1073741828.126853097653430/700448650293869/?type=3

  • Questioning

    Don’t worry… our republic is in no danger of becoming an Islamic nation. Get help Crawdad…. you are seriously paranoid and blocked.

  • Questioning

    From wikipedia…

    Intersex people are born with any of several variations in sex characteristics including chromosomes, gonads, sex hormones, or genitals that, according to the UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights, “do not fit the typical definitions for male or female bodies”.[1][2] Such variations may involve genital ambiguity, and combinations of chromosomal genotype and sexual phenotype other than XY-male and XX-female.[3][4]

    Or you can look here….

    http://www.apa.org › Psychology Topics › Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender
    https://medlineplus.gov › Medical Encyclopedia

    and on and on. You are very clearly wrong, and everyone knows it, except you. Now in the words of one of my favorite cartoon characters, Foghorn Leghorn:

    “Go away boy, ya bother me.”

    ps: you are blocked too.

  • Questioning

    See above….

  • David Cohen

    Just making an observation. I realize as a slave of the president you are encouraged to ignore what you see and read, but the rest of us are not willing to be slaves.

  • David Cohen

    I realize that you will call this fake news (the current standard practice among trump-slaves whenever they are given facts that make them feel bad) but I figured I would give it a try.


  • David Cohen

    Subverting your will to an ideology makes one a slave, regardless of citizenship.

    And, in fact, there is a great deal of documentation about why Trump cannot be trusted. Consider this for example

    Let the accusations of fake news begin

  • David Cohen

    Nice job of cutting and pasting I wonder if you bothered to read it before you did.

    Here is the trouble though: none of that matters to Christian fundamentalists. As Bob Shiloh has demonstrated for us elsewhere in this fed, the sole value among Christian fanatics is expediency. Whatever policy helps them obtain power is deemed “holy.” If a biblical passage supports their efforts, like those condemning sex between members of the same gender, it is expected to be taken at face value. If a biblical passage is inconvenient, difficult or no fun, it is subject to intense “interpretation” and twisted into something completely different from its literal word, or else simply ignored. We see the former when Christian fanatics insist that Numbers 5:11-31 is not an explanation of how the priests are to deliver an abortifcant as a test of adultery, despite the fact that this is what the passage requires. We see the latter when fanatics talk about Roman 13, a chapter which was never mentioned during the Obama administration.

    So, if the Christian fanatic is willing to put everything, even their own sacred scriptures aside for the sake of expediency, the question remains as to why we should bother listening to you.

  • David Cohen

    Hmm, trying to deflect the conversation to Mrs. Clinton. Clearly I have hit a sore spot.

  • David Cohen

    And, again, we see the trump slave with eyes closed, fingers in ears, chanting “fake news, fake news, fake news” When this fails, bring up Obama, Hillary or whoever else they can deflect the conversation too.

    So predictable.

  • David Cohen

    “Yes Got questions website is great on most things.”
    – Yes, it keeps you from having to read the Bible for yourself and consider that you might be wrong

    “It is clear you are wrong on this issue.”
    – Thus speaks to voice of expediency

    “Illegal immigration is illegal and should be treated as such. And no one is putting scripture asiode that is a deception tactic by you.”
    – I cited how Bob Shiloh did this. But it seems that reading anything for yourself is just too threatening for you.

  • David Cohen

    And yet, Christian fanatics cheerfully cite Leviticus in their efforts to condemn gay people. There is that devotion to expediency which your tribe demonstrates. It seems that no matter how you try to deny it, it always seeps through.

  • Questioning

    More like mental illness….

  • David Cohen

    And there it is: that cheerful willingness to cite the OT when it is expedient from someone who just got through saying that the OT is no longer valid. Whatever is expedient, THAT is holy.

    Please continue. You are doing a far better job discrediting your position than I could ever hope to do.

  • David Cohen

    The NT does not condemn slavery anywhere. Recall the Epistle to Philemon in which Paul sends an escaped slave back to his master. But, yet again, we see that for Christian fanatics the Bible says whatever expediency demands.

    Keep going, please.

  • David Cohen

    Ah, you managed to find a modern translation which says exactly what you hoped it would say. We know this because it uses the word “homosexual,” a word and concept which, literally, did not exist in Biblical times. Earlier translations were not so explicit. Thus actual slave holders were able to cite Bible passages which permitted slavery, while abolitionists were forced to concede biblical admonitions against slavery were implied rather than explicit.

    Of course, now that slavery is no longer fashionable in most circles, the Bible can easily be re-translated to support this view. Yet again, we see that it is expediency, not truth, which guides the Christian fanatic. So does that mean hen it is no longer expedient to condemn gay people that the Bible will be re-translated again to reflect this? Precedent says it must be.

  • David Cohen

    As I have been saying, its all about expediency

  • David Cohen

    I did not say gay people did not exist. I said the word “homosexual” and the idea that one could be exclusively attracted to members of the same sex as a matter of personal nature did not exist. Do try reading my arguments before you respond, it will make you seem much less foolish.

  • David Cohen

    And if believing that makes you happy, you go right ahead.

    Its the expedient thing to do, after all.

  • David Cohen

    Okay, please cite the ancient references regarding sexual orientation as a scientific concept.

    And do try to understand that even if the scientific concept did not exist, that does NOT mean the the phenomenon didn’t exist.

  • David Cohen

    If believing that makes you feel good, you go right ahead.

    After all, we all know that when things don’t make a trump slave feel good, dogma demands that they close eyes, plug ears and scream “fake news.”

  • David Cohen

    Sure Widuran, sure

  • David Cohen

    You are misrepresenting my argument to save an argument which you cannot save otherwise.

  • sandidad

    You called that right. NPR’s article is pure fake news= BS. NPR is a Far Left organization that receives government funding. It’s sad we don’t have true free speech in America. You must have fried your brains on drugs if you deny all the drugs pouring into America from across the Mexican border via MS-13 gangs, plus all the murders, rapes, and human trafficking hasn’t caused the crime rate to escalate in America. Absolute lunacy!!!! I suppose you will deny California is a “shit hole” that’s as bad as any third world country in the world? Democrats/liberals are destroyers of prosperous towns, cities and states across America. When ever they get into control you can expect total despair!!!

  • apoxbeonyou

    You do realize you don’t actually comment with actual content; all you do is attack people. Do you ever have an original thought?

  • sandidad

    David, you are too stupid to waste my time trying to educate you on the truth. But here it goes for the last time:1) No, immigration isn’t at an all time low. It’s on the rise again. Obama cut our border patrols in half and thousands more illegals were coming across our borders undetected. 2) Don’t blame Reagan. He wanted to close the border but Democrats didn’t want him to. So they promised Reagan they would close the border if he would give the present illegals amnesty. After Reagan left office Democrats reneged on their promise. https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128303672 3) Christians are commanded by God to help the needy and most Christians do. However, that doesn’t mean our government should allow wide open uncontrolled illegal immigration. Our government is in place to protect us and provide security for our nation. How can we have a sovereign nation with wide open borders? What’s going to eventually happen? Do you have a clue? Do you suggest we always have open borders indefinitely and never close them? How can America support the whole world, dumb ass!!!! 4) Capitalism made America the greatest nation in the world. Any one who supports socialism is totally ignorant of how socialism hasn’t ever worked and has always been a complete failure. I stand by my previous comment: “Common sense and logic elude you!!!!!”

  • David Cohen