Conservative Christian: Tell Me Again About How You’re “Pro-Family”?

Conservative Christian: Tell Me Again About How You’re “Pro-Family”? January 18, 2018

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A hallmark of being a conservative Christian is supposedly being “pro-life”.

In the age of Trump and “nuke em’ all,” we of course know that the modern concept of being pro-life is a total farce– right along with the second hallmark of being a conservative Christian:

The claim of being “pro-family.”

Now, I think it’s important to note that “pro-family” never *really* meant pro-family to begin with– it was just a fancy dog whistle for “anti-gay,” and all of us in the Religious Right knew that. But for those who still use the term and think it actually means what the words say at face-value, tell me again how this “pro-family” thing works?

Because when I look at the daily news stories, I’m seriously confused how Trump and the policies advocated by the Religious Right, specifically around immigration, are anything but anti-family.

The other day I asked, “Is Trump still pro-life if he gets us all killed?” and today I have a similar question:

Are you still pro-family if you’re actively breaking up perfectly good ones?

 

A case in point is the Garcia family, who was ripped apart this week when Jorge Garcia was deported back to Mexico. Jorge had been brought to the United States when he was just 10 years old, through no choice of his own– he was just a kid. He grew up in America, went to school in America, got a job and paid taxes in America, and eventually built a family in America. He even spent many years trying to do the “right thing” by getting legal status in the United States.

Even though he’d spent many years, and reportedly $125,000 attempting to fix his legal status, he was ordered for deportation several years ago– but was given a stay of deportation under the Obama administration. However, this year that stay was taken from him; his family was notified that Trump wanted everyone out, and that he’d have to leave the country the day after Thanksgiving. He was given a brief reprieve– told he could stay and have one last Christmas with his family– but after a tearful goodbye Jorge has now been taken from his family and returned to a country he hasn’t lived in since he was 10 years old.

Deporting him from the United States didn’t make us safer– he hadn’t as much as even had a traffic ticket.

Deporting him from the United States didn’t save us money– he worked, paid taxes, and now his wife will have to figure out how to make ends meet without a working spouse. In fact, she quite likely may even need to seek public assistance moving forward.

The only thing that was accomplished by deporting Jorge Garcia, is that the Trump administration functionally widowed a wife, and functionally orphaned two teenage children.

So, back to my question Trump-supporting Christian:

How are you able to lay claim to the title “pro-family” if you’re actively breaking up perfectly good ones?

I mean, how does that even work? This logic strikes me as being as twisted as an abortion doctor claiming to be pro-life… it just leaves you scratching your head.

How can you hold rallies and tell men that the solution to a wide-array of social problems is for them to be more present and engaged with their families, when you just ripped a dad away from one?

How can you scoff at poverty and crime statistics and say, “The problem is a lack of parenting” when the reason two children will get far less parenting in their teen years is your own immigration policies?

And how the actual you-know-what can your church hold Orphan Sunday every year when you just functionally orphaned two American kids? How does taking away a loving dad, and creating a situation where a mom will have to work twice as much to survive, show your care and concern for orphans?

This situation is yet another example of where many of us who have left the Religious Right still hold to many of the original ideals we were taught growing up, even though those who taught us these values have since completely abandoned them.

I still believe that as Christians, we are called to be “pro-family.” I still believe that the family unit is the foundational unit that forms society, and that families should be nurtured and protected in every reasonable way we can do so.

And I certainly still believe that the Bible calls us to “defend the cause of the fatherless.”

But unlike the Religious Right, I still think all this should apply to Mexican families, too.


unafraid 300Dr. Benjamin L. Corey is a public theologian and cultural anthropologist who is a two-time graduate of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary with graduate degrees in the fields of Theology and International Culture, and holds a doctorate in Intercultural Studies from Fuller Theological Seminary. He is also the author of the new book, Unafraid: Moving Beyond Fear-Based Faith, which is available wherever good books are sold. www.Unafraid-book.com. 

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  • Timothy Weston

    They will justify it in a very similar method of doing Independence Day services: By citing Romans 13 and cloaking it in the American flag.

  • Matthew

    Those brought to the U.S. as children should have the right to
    legal residency status (or even citizenship) in the U.S.

    This should pretty much be a no brainer … no?

    [Edited]

  • Daniel Fisher

    Matthew, perhaps you could clarify what you mean here? I doubt that argument would be considered a “no-brainer” in most other countries. If I next week took my children to Bermuda, Spain, Thailand, Japan, or Malaysia, these countries would extend neither legal residency nor citizenship to my child, on the basis that they arrived in these countries as children, no?

  • I am grappling with the situation as it stands which is this I think; those who have the power can do anything those who resist can’t stop them from doing. It’s much easier to diagnose this situation then to find Solutions to amend the hideousness of the Fallout that has been set in motion since 45 became POTUS!! https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4b70d29f585c807f76752deb2124ffc5902dd558dd667ab06f8e87bec85d1ef4.jpg

  • Daniel Fisher

    Well, since you ask, this particular Conservative Christian does not agree with such a policy that would break up this family given the particulars in this scenario. This looks like ICE executing the letter of the law in a mindless manner; and if the law does not give some reprieve or path to legal residency citizenship to such a person as this who clearly has established his family and roots, and contributes to the country as this man seems to have, then this conservative Christian fully supports modifying legislation so as to take such scenarios into account, while still maintaining appropriate laws regarding immigration policy in general.

  • If? There is no if here. Right here in River City There are some hideously cruel policies that are inflicting needless pain on peace-loving individuals and families. They are my neighbors and friends and Children of the one whom I call God.
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e9e5b060c3a15cebe640edf8c0ead327dbb45622b48609042e0c908390d6a3be.jpg

  • Sorry, Daniel this is just one instance…there are hundreds more…and to top it off, this administration, in particular Sessions is well aware of most of these individual cases but keeps a blind eye. Actually…my opinion…because no Republican politician will actually admit it, but I feel it is just another dent they can put into any voter they feel might lean now or in the future more towards the left lever in the ballot box.

  • mkmangold

    Y’all just don’t get it. The biggest deterrent to family life is the American system of mass incarceration and the over-abundance of laws that jail our own people. Especially men, since no one seems to care about males in this country. The Right has their “follow the laws. Or else,” while the Left has their “the law is the law.” How do you maintain your family while in prison? Nixon was the worst destroyer of families with his “War on Drugs” while Clinton came in second with his “Crime Bill.” Read Matt 25-40 for Jesus’ version of how we should treat prisoners and the Prophets on how to respond.

  • $144948586

    Corey, stop being dishonest. Conservatism is the antithesis of utilizing government except to roll back government.
    If you’re talking Republican or populist, fine. But, it’s not worthy of a leader to mince words.

  • $144948586

    You mean that Democrat sanctum of Chicago? What policies are you talking about?

  • Bones

    Unless its about denying migrants citizenship….because conservatives love that.

  • $144948586

    What are you talking about?
    You made the post about piss poor policies in a non-conservative city hurting people on a blog attacking conservatives.

  • Martha Anne Underwood

    “But, he was here illegally, so he has to go” is the refrain of people who believe that only those who have gone through the expensive legal procedure to emigrate here should be allowed to stay. America first, they say.

    I totally agree with your statement: “Deporting him from the United States
    didn’t save us money– he worked, paid taxes, and now his wife will have
    to figure out how to make ends meet without a working spouse. In fact,
    she quite likely may even need to seek public assistance moving forward.” It is such a fallacy that undocumented immigrants drain our economy. More than not they enhance our economy.

  • $144948586
  • Grind on Nature Boy!! I haven’t enjoyed a flame War for a long time!! https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9fa242f34b8021ab462722c8d97035cfecd04e3c41053dec30156c666fa309e4.gif

  • TS (unami)

    Money and Votes, exactly. Power.

  • ashpenaz

    “Pro-life” means you want to punish women for having sex. It’s that simple. Pro-life means stopping women from having access to contraception and not free to determine if an abortion is necessary. They want women who have sex and get pregnant to do the “walk of shame.” Once you realize this, the pro-life movement makes perfect sense.

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Yeah… that’s great…

    Now maybe you can go inform the jackasses who claim the label, usually with “very” prepended to the word… as they’ve highjacked your label, they wouldn’t recognize a real conservative if Ike, Churchill, or Buckley rose from the grave and bit them on their ample and entitled butts, and they’re the ones that need to hear from you… G-d knows I’ve tried, and they don’t listen to me, as I’m just a “libtard” in their eyes…

  • Matthew

    Thanks Daniel Fisher.

    As I have no voice in the countries you mention, and as I have no idea what their immigration laws state about people coming to their nations as children, I really cannot effectively comment.

    I will say, though, if I had a voice in those places my opinion would remain the same. Maybe I shouldn´t have assumed it´s a “no brainer” for everyone (I do understand the issues are complex), but for me the answer in cases like these is rather clear.

  • $144948586

    “Now maybe you can go inform the jackasses who claim the label”
    I do.

    Regardless, even if I didn’t, a person such as Corey who chooses to be a teacher or, at a minimum, a spokesman should have the good sense to judge the two separately…in fact, as a Christian and as a person regarded by his disciples as a teacher, it is required of him.

    “as I’m just a “libtard” in their eyes…”
    There is nothing liberal about progressivism….Corey is a progressive, not a liberal. There is nothing liberal about the Democrat party; it is a progressive party. I don’t confuse the two, and I don’t consider Democrat synonymous with progressivism as Republicans are also progressivists…and as the famed Dave Matthews says, “Progress takes away what forever took to find.”

  • $144948586

    I bet you’ve no idea what a lie is anymore. I come back against your slanted view of conservatism because your example is about your Democrat-run, incredibly corrupt, city, and all you do is call these facts opinion and then insult me.

    Your neighbors, your friends, don’t need your god.

  • Matthew

    All the little ants are marching … :-)

  • Bones

    And migrants and gays don’t need yours.

  • Bones

    Yeah, progress seems a bitch to you anti-gay and anti-immigrant types.

    Btw liberal

    Liberalism� stands for a belief in an equal right to freedom and dignity, advanced by a government of constitutionally restrained powers. In different historical contexts, liberals have varied in their understanding of that ideal and the policies needed to achieve a free and prosperous society and a secure world. Since the early nineteenth century, the general trend in liberal thought and politics has been toward a broader, more inclusive conception of what an equal right to freedom means. In pursuit of that aim, liberals have come to favor greater regulation of the economy while also supporting the deregulation of private moral life and stronger protection of civil liberties.

  • Bones

    Josh only wants government to lock up bad people like gays, immigrants, women who have abortions and people who use the wrong toilet.

  • Bones

    Lol..no conservatism uses government to legislate morality hence why conservatives rail against decriminalising homosexuality and every civil right given to people.

    Someone isn’t as smart as they think they are.

  • there’s some real flesh and blood on your bones isn’t there? You have family? How would you like to be treated if you were in their shoes?

  • $144948586

    I would want them to hold me to account if I’m making nonsense blanket statements.

    How is your family being treated by WHAT piss poor policy IN your city that you’re so despising of conservatives?

  • I don’t trust your motives for asking this. I owe you nothing!!

  • $144948586

    My motives aren’t the problem. Your hollow prejudice is.
    Again, your neighbors don’t need your god.

  • gloriamarie

    Dear fellow GCTS alumnus,

    Bravo, sir, bravo, and right on. Thank you. I was never part of the Religious Right even though at one time I considered myself evangelical but I rapidly outgrew that phase because that word seemed to mean less and less and then even lesser than what I was taught to be the Gospel. Thank you again

  • $144948586

    I’m going to tell you straight up, AS A FRIEND:
    You have hate, and not love, in your heart, Charles.

  • ashpenaz

    Trump will be speaking at the March for Life, so he must be pro-life! :) I wonder if it will ever come out if Trump, who has bragged about his sexual conquests, ever paid a woman to have an abortion. What would Huckabee, Graham, and Falwell think of that?

  • no doubt about it I do!!

  • TheReal Govteach

    They aren’t “pro-family” unless you’re white…..and are a member of the same denomination……or same church….

  • Bones

    So, like Pinochet, Ceausescu and even Hitler.

    You types love your Authoritarian figures.

    Btw last woman guillotined in ww2 (nazi controlled) France was an abortionist.

  • Bones

    Pot. Kettle. Black.

  • $144948586

    It’s just not true, Bones.

  • Bones

    Yes, it is.

    You better go look in a mirror.

  • Bones

    Speaking of prejudice…

    I do believe Chuck is referring to Conservative immigration policies…..

    Chaotic year in immigration policy challenges Chicago

    ” A tumultuous year in national immigration policy will end with worry still gripping Chicago’s immigrant communities, a heavy backlog of cases in immigration court and federal officials scrambling to make more room to detain people here.

    The election of President Donald Trump a year ago set in motion sweeping changes in how the federal government deals with those who do not have full legal status in the U.S., according to immigrant advocacy groups in Chicago.

    Panic ran through many neighborhoods as officers with the federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement more aggressively followed the harder-line priorities of the Trump administration and court dockets swelled with those who suddenly faced deportation.

    “It’s been basically emergency after emergency for most of the year,” said Tania Unzueta, a local activist with the national Mijente organization, a Latino organizing group. “From immigration raids to members of our organization being called to do check-ins and really not knowing whether they could be detained or deported.”

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/immigration/ct-met-chicago-immigration-chaos-2017-story.html

    Which apparently is the Democrat Mayor’s fault……

  • $144948586

    Let Chuck speak for himself.
    He could have linked to this article if you wanted to.
    That being said, Chicago has one of the highest crime cities in the nation and it’s been consecutively run by democrats for the last half- century. Not to mention, Chicago is well known for the corruption of its politics. Again, it’s been consecutively run by democrats. So, it may very well have been crisis after crisis or emergency after emergency, but again it’s been consecutively run by democrats.

  • Bones

    Your motives and bias are obvious….

    Why would he want to dialogue with you?

    And given the context of the thread and that he was responding to a question about citizenship it’s obvious what he’s going on about but you’ve just made it into another “and this is why I hate progressives” rant.

    Why do conservatives like to lie?

  • $144948586

    “Why would he want to dialogue with you?”
    Because I’m not the one who started the conversation. I’m open to changing opinions–I have before. I used to like Republicans, then I used to like Democrats, then I shortly like Republicans again until I realized they weren’t conservatives, then my eyes woke up to the mass atrocity at the hands of parasitic institutions such as government whose participation is involuntary. They make claims such as “oh you’re just a hater…lies, lies I tell you!” They make conjectures about unfair treatment of their municipalities and use it to smear group C, and refuse a dialogue when that municipality is completely in the bed with group D. MUCH MUCH MORE should be demanded from Christians who will certainly, according to Matthew’s gospel, be judged for such misrepresentation. Myself included. And I was judged, and I was awakened to the real violence of this world at the motivation of my vote casting, my lot casting.

    He should want to dialogue, because he should have a good reason to be as disgusted as he clearly is—particularly if he’s going to talk about his god.

    “it into another “and this is why I hate progressives” rant.”
    I’ve done no such thing; what a hateful smear.

  • kaydenpat

    “Jorge had been brought to the United States when he was just 10 years old, through no choice of his own”

    87% of Americans support DACA. It’s amazing that Republicans are shutting down a government which they fully control just so they can continue to deport the Jorge’s who came to this country through no fault of their own. http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/369487-poll-nearly-nine-in-10-favor-allowing-daca-recipients-to-stay

  • Bones

    Actually you replied to his comment to someone else.

    Maybe because he’s not into conflict and he didn’t want to talk to you.

    Which is his right.

    You leftist haters aren’t special you know. You’re crawling around everywhere.

    Lol you’ve smeared progressives in every post you hateful merkin.

    Take your own medicine for once….

    But you’ll be happy that trump’s rounding all the brown people up.

    And you’re blaming that on the Democratic mayor.

    I’m sure Jesus is proud of you.

  • $144948586

    “Maybe because he’s not into conflict and he didn’t want to talk to you.”
    Then he shouldn’t be flaming others.

    “And you’re blaming that on the Democratic mayor.”
    If he admits there’s a problem with the city–and there are several–, there’s only one party that can be said to run Chicago.

    “Lol you’ve smeared progressives in every post you hateful merkin”
    No, I’ve smeared progressivism and its politics, because it hurts people under the guise of liberty through suppression of others. As Charles attests in his own city. Ive at least given reason for opposing these hypocritical views.

    “But you’ll be happy that trump’s rounding all the brown people up.”
    No more so than Clinton creating the largest incarceration system of black people ever.. As attested to by Thomas Frank of all people.

    “You leftist haters aren’t special you know.” Actually, haters of leftist politic are special. The majority of people are leftists in their beliefs. But few recognize that perhaps it truly is oppressive to legislate taxation to take care of the have nots. Perhaps voluntary businesses aren’t actually exploitative, and perhaps you cant call it exploitation when others will voluntary take a job. And perhaps it is actually more beneficial to not tax a business because we actually kill prpductive growth and thus jobs that would prevent a significant portion of have not recipients from even needing handouts. And perhaps it’s NOT hateful to show that this is the truth: welfare needs are minimized when free enterprize is maximized. And perhaps we can realize that it is actually enslavement to tell a business man whom you freely bought a product from that, “x% of your money belongs to me.”

    Ive already taken that medicine which you so insultingly and hatefully ridicule. I woke up and realized that governments are always bankrupt, not because people avoid taxes but because governments are pragmatic and ultimately destroy their sources of income and thus ultimately create systems of rationing that breed cannibalism in the name of “the 5 year plan”. Trump, in one year by not threatening businesses, has already helped thr unemployed more than Obama ever did in 8 years with jobless claims being done to its lowest in some 30 years.

    I said previously its goong to be great seeing you eat crow in your socialist utopia over the next 3 years as all it takes was easing the burden of government..

  • Chuck Johnson

    “Conservatism is the antithesis of utilizing government except to roll back government.”

    A dimwitted slogan masquerading as a political insight.

  • Chuck Johnson

    The conservative Christians think by means of one political slogan at a time.
    Real, productive thinking is alien to them.
    Ignorance is strength.

  • $144948586

    A Google definition.
    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=conservatism

  • $144948586

    Are you a conservative Christian?

  • Matthew

    I´m starting with the man in the mirror …

  • Bones

    You like making up your own definitions……

    Conservatism

    Conservatism is a political and social philosophy promoting traditional social institutions in the context of culture and civilization. The central tenets of conservatism include tradition, human imperfection, organic society, hierarchy and authority and property rights.[1] Conservatives seek to preserve a range of institutions such as monarchy, religion, parliamentary government and property rights with the aim of emphasizing social stability and continuity[2] while the more extreme elements called reactionaries oppose modernism and seek a return to “the way things were”.[3][4]

    Of course legislating morality sort of goes against libertarianism and anarchism which is what you claim to be.

  • Bones

    Does he oppose civil rights?

  • Bones

    He wasn’t flaming anyone.

    He was merely stating things as they are.

    You’re the one who got all uppity about it and started accusing him of prejudice.

    I mean you’re the massive hypocrite here accusing others of prejudice while you are the most prejudicial and hateful clown here.

    Lol and comes out as a Trump supporter. Like there’s no surprise.

    No wonder you love the government crackdown on immigrants.

    Oh and then cries about the evils of taxation.

    You’ve got your world arse way around.

  • Bones

    No one here takes you seriously.

  • otrotierra

    Indeed.

  • kabar44

    It’s easier to say liberalism is how Jesus Christ teaches everyone to be.

  • Chuck Johnson

    I don’t reply because of your habitual dishonesty.

  • Here’s something I have found helpful when dealing with trolls. This is from a Blog by Morgan Guyton called Mercy not sacrifice from a while ago:
    //I think trolls are probably acting out even though they’ve buried their trauma deep beneath their cynicism. It’s very hard not to be reactive on social media. I would just say to always presume that the person attacking you is really projecting their past onto you. And when people are recovering from spiritual abuse, they cling to their narrative very tightly so anybody who has a slightly different version of moving forward is a threat. The other piece of it is fundamentalism itself is often a response to trauma. So an ex-fundamentalist who hasn’t processed their trauma just finds a new way to be fundamentalist with a different ideology.// https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/55cc5e5278f8a011bd6a0a949c9c99ad76461d3fabe4695ea4b8c5c8e1f98849.jpg

  • This is not actually untrue, though insufficient as an explanation. The right wing party is very prone to authoritarianism, and authoritarian followers are prone to heavily compartmentalized thinking, punctuated with easily memorized slogans and similar turns of phrase. These witticisms don’t even necessarily have to be compatible with each other — the same man who tells you that freedom of speech gives him the right to say as he pleases, can respond to criticism with “my country — love it or leave it!” without experiencing cognitive dissonance or sensing any form of contradiction.

  • Dean Daniels

    Law is not not tyrannical authority – it is an agreement that we legislate to put ourselves under. If we do not obey the law set for ourselves – then what have we become? Illegal/Undocumented immigration means it has broken the existing laws – again, why?

  • Chuck Johnson

    Yes, I know.
    George Orwell knew these things, too.

  • Chuck Johnson

    “. . . can respond to criticism with “my country — love it or leave it!”
    without experiencing cognitive dissonance or sensing any form of
    contradiction.”

    Yes.
    Instead of cognitive dissonance, we will see doublethink.

  • Yes, but surprisingly enough, there’s also research on the subject to back up what we ‘know.’ Bob Altemeyer spent decades studying authoritarianism and has a decent compilation on the subject.

    … authoritarians’ ideas are poorly integrated with one another. It’s as if each idea is stored in a file that can be called up and used when the authoritarian wishes, even though another of his ideas–stored in a different file-basically contradicts it. We all have some inconsistencies in our thinking, but authoritarians can stupify you with the inconsistency of their ideas. Thus they may say they are proud to live in a country that guarantees freedom of speech, but another file holds, “My country, love it or leave it.” The ideas were copied from trusted sources, often as sayings, but the authoritarian has never “merged files” to see how well they all fit together.

    It’s easy to find authoritarians endorsing inconsistent ideas. Just present slogans and appeals to homey values, and then present slogans and bromides that invoke opposite values. The yea-saying authoritarian follower is likely to agree with all of them. Thus I asked both students and their parents to respond to, “When it comes to love, men and women with opposite points of view are attracted to each other.” Soon afterwards, in the same booklet, I pitched “Birds of a feather flock together when it comes to love.” High RWAs typically agreed with both statements, even though they responded to the two items within a minute of each other.

    But that’s the point: they don’t seem to scan for self-consistency as much as most people do. Similarly they tended to agree with “A government should allow total freedom of expression, even it if threatens law and order” and “A government should only allow freedom of expression so long as it does not threaten law and order.” And “Parents should first of all be gentle and tender with their children,” and “Parents should first of all be firm and uncompromising with their children; spare the rod and spoil the child.”

    The Authoritarians, pg 80, 81

  • $144948586

    To blame is to flame.

  • $144948586

    Ive not madr any such claim ad to legislative legitimacy.

  • $144948586

    If he’s a progressive, he opposes natural rights which are superior to civil rights.

  • Chuck Johnson

    Thanks for the reference.
    It looks to me like to the susceptible people, packaging will often count for more than content.

    Which helps to explain some of the outlandish and grotesque political campaigns that we see.

  • Bones

    You mean like when white people migrated to the US……

  • Bones
  • Bones

    Lol…..still making your own shit up.

    There are no ‘natural rights’ in the animal kingdom.

  • Bones

    Yes, the idea that Jesus was a conservative reactionary Jew is the ultimate in dishonesty.

  • Bones

    Which is what you did……

    Take your own medicine.

    Oh yeah the so-called libertarian loves Trump using federal law to pick on immigrants.

  • Bones

    Der, conservatives utilise government to push through their conservative agenda specifically rolling things back to ‘the way things were’…..

    Btw the first conservatives were French monarchists….

  • Bones

    Of course, it’s interesting how these natural rights never apply to others eg gays, immigrants….

    Mainly just white conservatives…..

  • Matthew

    I think Eva makes some good points …

  • Matthew

    The bottom picture is funny :-)! The look on the pilgrim´s face is priceless :-)!

  • Ron McPherson

    LOLOL!!!

  • Bones

    So I take it;

    “Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
    Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

    Has been changed to

    “Go back to your shitholes……”

  • Bones

    A broken clock is right twice a day….

  • $144948586

    I never said this; and yes, these do apply for conservatives. For conservatives, state power would be limited circa 1787…this, of course, is still more progressive than an anarchist like me.

  • $144948586

    That’s fascism, thats progressivism…definitionally not conservative.

  • $144948586

    I actually gave reasons for flaming. Follow the convo bones; that was the problem originally.

  • $144948586

    Well thankfully they’re endowed by creator. But I thank you for your admission that you believe it’s okay to abuse other people’s natural rights under the guise there are no natural rights in the animal kingdom. I thought you said you weren’t an atheist. But even an atheist can argue that there are natural rights for human primarily because we have certain qualities that animals do not mainly reason. But again, thank you for your admission that abusing others by not respecting their property rights is okay with you. After all, it only flows from the assumption that people have no natural rights. Never again do I want to hear you complain about slavery.

  • Bones

    No…that’s conservatism……

    The first time the term ‘conservative’ was used was by French monarchists in the 19th century who wanted to see the restoration of the Bourbonic kings.

    Conservatism and fascism are linked of course.

    And no progressivism isn’t fascist.

    That’s just you lying.

    (Fun fact:: conservative right wing Catholics embraced fascism – not progressivism)

  • Bones

    Yeah nah. Your very comments show you accept natural law only for conservatives.

    Sorry to bust your bubble but conservative states tend to be the most Authoritarian.

    But hey, you’ve made up your own definitions.

  • Bones

    No, all rights are given by human society, derpaderp. It was US society which embraced slavery (no doubt as a biproduct of being a British colony) and it was US society educated in the rights of human beings (ergo the various libertarian movements in 18th and 19th centuries) which took it away. It wa shuman society which had gay people arrested and tortured and it was human society which freed gay people and allowed them to marry.

    There is no divine bill of rights which God endowed upon humanity. Our civilisations and cultures have evolved to a greater understanding of the individual (compared to ancient societies ruled by kings).

    And hey you’re the one who openly applauds the taking away of other people’s natural rights…and the abuse of gay people and immigrants at the hand of the Federal government.

    The only natural rights you care about are your own.

    But then you’re a conservative….

  • $144948586

    “No, all rights are given by human society, derpaderp.”
    What human society developed the right not to be murdered?

    “And hey you’re the one who openly applauds the taking away of other people’s natural rights…and the abuse of gay people and immigrants at the hand of the Federal government.”
    This just isn’t true Bones.

  • $144948586

    “Your very comments show you accept natural law only for conservatives.”
    How?

    “Sorry to bust your bubble but conservative states tend to be the most Authoritarian.”
    Only because you don’t see mandatory voting, IRS being used to target political groups, forcing people to buy a market product, spying on phone calls, or taxes as authoritarian.

  • $144948586

    “And no progressivism isn’t fascist.”
    Except it’s progressivism that believes it’s right to divert resources from the free market for “the general welfare.”
    Restated: Progressivism believes that it is ok to supersede the right’s of individuals for the collective good. You know who else believed this?
    Marx. You know who else believed this? Hitler.
    You know who else believed this? Stalin.
    You know who else believed this? Mussolini.
    You know who else believed this? Woodrow Wilson.
    You know who else believed this? FDR.
    You know who else believed this? The Pentagon and their kill lists.
    You know who else believed this? Bush.
    You know who else believed this? Obama.
    You know who else believed this? Republicans.
    You know who else believed this? Democrats.
    You know what would be illogical to maintain while maintaining this belief? Conservatism which triumphs individual rights per google: “the holding of political views that favor free enterprise, private ownership, and socially conservative ideas.”

  • CroneEver

    Marla Maples already said years ago that he pressured her to have one back when he was cheating on first wife Ivana with her.

  • Ron McPherson

    “Progressivism believes that it is ok to supersede the right’s of individuals for the collective good. You know who else believed this?”

    Um…Jesus?

    Matthew 16: 24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit them if they gain the whole world but forfeit their life? Or what will they give in return for their life?”

    Acts 2: 44 All who believed were together and had all things in common; 45 they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds to all, as any had need.

    What the government takes from us and re-distributes is pennies as to what God would expect from us. Just sayin’

  • Herm

    So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

    Matthew 7:12 (NIV2011)

    Dean, you just wrote, “If we do not obey the law set for ourselves – then what have we become?” Who set the first laws of this land for themselves? What has become of them?

    Not one of the “Dreamers” broke the law of our nation. By our law, if you are under the age of consent, and come to reside in our nation due to other adult authority, you are not to be held legally responsible.

    Many of our, otherwise, undocumented (“illegal”) aliens forced their way into our nation based solely on doing so or they and theirs would die; physically, mentally, and/or in spirit. You, in choosing to obey and enforce existing law, would choose to place them back in the same hopeless environment. Would you have any of your species of mankind, with choice, do the same to you?

    … refer to Bones’ pictorials below.

  • Herm

    So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

  • Herm

    Thankfully, I guess, mankind was endowed with the right to crucify children of God in God’s name, even after all authority was stripped from the seat of Moses and given to the Christ. What natural rights are you speaking to Josh?

  • Herm

    Enough to mount His cross for the collective good of Man!!!

  • Matthew

    That’s what friends are for …

  • $144948586

    “Thankfully, I guess, mankind was endowed with the right to crucify children of God in God’s name”
    Why be so crass Herm. It’s not a right to murder, so we weren’t endowed with the right to murder. We were endowed with the right to be hateful and prejudiced, and we’re TAUGHT that these things bring hell and death. And, we’re taught that, while we have the ability to murder, it’s not lawful even in the natural sense.

    “What natural rights are you speaking to Josh?”
    The right to subdue the earth and also to not be aggressed upon–including your property.
    If you love your neighbor, you can fulfill this law…you wouldn’t forbid them from owning something that they want to own, AND you wouldn’t take it from them by force even if you thought they shouldn’t.
    Anything else is an infringement on this natural right.

    Even if you come from a statement of “there is no god”, you can still see PLAINLY in children playing when another child steals from them it can easily lead to aggression in them. Or two animals fighting over a mate.
    Intrinsically, we know–even animals know–that they’ve been violated.
    Thus, Moses gave the command “an eye for an eye”. This is just, in the strict sense of equal wrongdoing.
    That doesn’t mean, and I’m not going to debate it in this conversation, that we’re not called to be more forgiving than that; in fact, we are. It was God’s natural right to wipe out existence for their crimes against His Son; after all, our sins crucified him. Instead, He forgives those who desire forgiveness.

    But if you come at me with “there are no natural rights”, then give me your login information.

  • $144948586

    Yes; I fail to see your point.

  • $144948586

    Ron,

    What about those who didn’t want to become his follower?
    Did he tell them that they must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow him anyway?

    “What the government takes from us and re-distributes is pennies as to what God would expect from us. ”
    It doesn’t matter that it’s “just pennies”–in fact it isn’t; it’s 3 months out of the year that you work for government–that’s the average tax of middle-class America. I digress; the difference between God and government is that government demands it from you regardless of your willing submission–they’ll just use a gun and prison.
    However God says “if you want…” and he let the rich young ruler go. Christians should follow the same example.
    Government is demonic.

  • $144948586

    Herm, you’re a smart man.
    So, I mean it with all sincerity that you can see the dishonesty in comparing a man “laying down his own life…” and “laying down his friend’s life” and calling them the same.
    This same dishonesty extends to utilizing government as a means to the church’s ends. The church is voluntary; coercion is not. The church is not coercive, because Jesus was not coercive. Any justification is the SAME justification as the Spanish Inquisition or the treatment of heretics by St. Augustine. It was blasphemous then, and it is blasphemous now–it doesn’t matter that these actions are small potatoes or “just pennies”. Coercion is coercion.

  • Herm

    Dean, is this land our “native nation“, as in indigenous? What you quoted from me was in reference to the environment that we send our own, of our mankind, in callous disregard for their welfare. We, all of mankind as one Man, are the clear stewards of this earth, dependent upon carnal propagation to continue our responsibility. As related to, in the sum of the law, the word “others” relates to all others of Man, than yourself, including all others of all fragmented nations. If we have no empathy for all of our mankind, as we love our individual selves, we will surely die as a species on this earth. That’s the law we cannot set for ourselves.

  • $144948586

    “Law…is an agreement that we legislate to put ourselves under.”
    I never agreed.

  • $144948586

    Any sources for me?

  • Hillary Allen (aka Canuck)

    duh — that we’re all immigrants here is the point, and just because ‘you were here first’ doesn’t make you any more or less worthy than folks brought here as kids. Folks from Norway, indeed!! Just racist.

  • Hillary Allen (aka Canuck)
  • Herm

    Woe be to those students of those authorities who usurp the authority of the Teacher. ALL resources available to Man were given without merit (completely unearned) for the health and welfare of Man, as one body, in the image of the one body of God.

    What about the followers of Joseph Stalin, or Adolf Hitler, don’t you understand? Christ always spoke to the will of our Father in heaven (who is spirit) as our lead to live. The sum of the Law and Prophets is what governs His will. Good is constructive and evil is destructive. Unity in all love is constructive. Fragmented into “me and mine” before “them and theirs” is pure evil.

    What Ron alluded to, relative to carrying one’s own cross, is the spirit of ours, relative to the whole of Man and the whole of God, before me and mine, in the example set and taught by the Son of Man.

    There is nothing we work for as carnal beings that will not return to the earth from whence it came. ALL that we have to be responsible to is on loan.

    The USA first became an affluent nation, for the majority of its population, when the independently wealthy were taxed up to 95% of their annual income. Government is not the question. Taxes are not the question. How best to support life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for all of Man, each created equal, is the question recorded in the Declaration of Independence.

  • Ron McPherson

    So as an anarchist, who would you appeal to when someone “aggresses upon your property”? For that matter, who even says it’s yours if there is no government holding a deed?

  • Herm

    Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

    Matthew 16:17-19 (NIV2011)

    And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

    John 14:16-18 (NIV2011)

    Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

    John 4:23-24 (NIV2011)

    Thank you Josh, flattery does get my attention. First, I know relatively nothing of what there is to know and I believe you know that. At best, relative to God, I am an infant child yet to move beyond my crib. My perspective is insufficient, in the overall scheme of things that we both can sense, to derive truth enough to actually be considered smart, especially relative to my Teacher. My only source, to not be counted in the many invited who know not what they do, is the Spirit of truth. I am not special for the Advocate of God is available all who seek Him, “with all sincerity“, in humility befitting their true degree of awareness and influence within an eternal and infinite spirit.

    There is only one church I worship in and it is not carnal. There is only one authority I answer to and They are not carnal. I remain, as does my most divine Brother, a child of carnal Man while, also, having received to be immersed in He appearing as a dove, in being as a child of the eternal spirit God.

    I am not coerced to carry my cross. I do so because I love my Man and my God. Other than the final not so cherished anguish my cross means no more to me than serving my love for Man, who will die, and God, who will not.

    I give unto Caesar (of the people, by the people and for the people) what is Caesar’s for the continuation of Man, all created equal, to support the life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as I would have others do to me.

    Life is Life. Life is no more than awareness and influence meted out, loaned if you will, on a very temporary basis to each individual of Man. No other species on this earth displays a higher degree of awareness and influence than does mankind. That is the degree of responsibility, that we had no choice to reject or accept, that we have to the continuation of life on this planet as we know it. Human life is an opportunity but not a privilege.

    Mankind lives on this earth by how much we members invest in mankind. No individual member of mankind will live more than 120 years on this earth.

  • Ron McPherson

    “What about those who didn’t want to become his follower?
    Did he tell them that they must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow him anyway?”

    No. I’m just wondering why you (as a professed follower) would have a problem with it. In fact, many in our country who don’t even profess to follow Jesus have no problem with superseding their right as an individual “for the collective good” with respect to paying taxes, especially for social programs. Christ followers, of all people, ought to not resent this. I gotta admit, I do resent my dollars going to build more bombs, but I definitely don’t resent them going to hopefully alleviate some suffering of others. After all, Jesus did say “render unto Caesar” and that was to a government (Rome) that didn’t even do squat to make the lives of others better. If ever Jesus had a chance to rip the government, it was then. I’m not trying to be a butt here, but have you actually read the words of Jesus and let them sink in? Seriously, practically his whole entire ministry is about sacrificing for others. The government doesn’t stop you from doing that. You and I have more disposable income (even after taxes) than like 98% of the rest of the world. Even after the government gets theirs, we’re still grossly wealthy in comparison to the rest of the world.

    “Government is demonic.”

    Wait, what? So a government with fire protection is demonic if they save my home and belongings (and perhaps my life)? A government is demonic for providing trash pickup, food for the elderly and needy, caring for national parks, providing nourishment for children?

  • Hillary Allen (aka Canuck)

    No, I don’t agree with this writing, because it was written/edited/edited again, etc., during a time when the known world was a tiny circle in what is now ‘the middle east’. Colonization justified by religion has created horrible inequities. Decidedly ungodly. We no longer live in the bronze age.

  • $144948586

    “What about the followers of Joseph Stalin, or Adolf Hitler, don’t you understand?”
    I don’t understand how they can crush their antagonists, because these antagonists don’t want to be told where to work or who to be friends with–or what their heritage is.

    “What Ron alluded to, relative to carrying one’s own cross, is the spirit of ours, relative to the whole of Man and the whole of God, before me and mine, in the example set and taught by the Son of Man.”
    Ron, we’re not talking about spirit of voluntarism in God–I am, but you and Ron are not. You’re conflating the idea of sacrificing your wants for other with the idea (you position) that this means you can use government power to enslave others. You are the Stalin and Hitler.

    “The USA first became an affluent nation, for the majority of its population, when the independently wealthy were taxed up to 95% of their annual income. ”
    I’ll gladly discuss this once you agree: you see it as beneficial to crush the wills of others for the thing that you call “good.”

    “How best to support life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for all of Man”
    There is not liberty in telling others what schools they must pay for, what military they must pay for, WHAT INSURANCE they must pay for, what things they can’t say.

    You are the authoritarian, Herm…MUCH DIFFERENT than the gospel Paul preached. And certainly the anti-thesis to Jesus’ desire in saying “if you WANT to become my disciple.” You’re message is, “You must be my disciple.”

    Hypocrite.

  • $144948586

    I wasn’t alive in Plato’s time; there’s only one answer to the question. I never did.

  • $144948586

    I’ve responded to this twice, but Disqus isn’t showing that I did. Here’s what I wrote:

    Ron,

    What about those who didn’t want to become his follower?
    Did he tell them that they must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow him anyway?

    “What the government takes from us and re-distributes is pennies as to what God would expect from us. ”
    It doesn’t matter that it’s “just pennies”–in fact it isn’t; it’s 4 months out of the year that you work for government–that’s the average tax of middle-class America. I digress; the difference between God and government is that government demands it from you regardless of your willing submission–they’ll just use a gun and prison.
    However God says “if you want…” and he let the rich young ruler go. Christians should follow the same example.
    Government is demonic.

  • Hillary Allen (aka Canuck)

    Ashpenaz… exactly!! You have summed it up succinctly. It really is about power and control. I see it as the flip of the anti-choice pro-abortion actions of some governments (and some members of the U.S. government) such as the one-child only policy that was in effect in China until recently. Both are heinous, but the motivation in Western countries seems to have no concern with how to clothe, house, feed or employ all the forced birth kids and in fact, these same people are often against immigration (aka ‘brown people’ or ‘not-christians’), free contraception, social programs for kids and mothers, and so forth. I wonder sometimes if they want people to fill their for-profit prisons and fight their wars (cannon fodder).

  • $144948586

    “I’m just wondering why you (as a professed follower) would have a problem with it.”
    Because you’re talking subjugation and not voluntary submission.

    “In fact, many in our country who don’t even profess to follow Jesus have no problem with superseding their right as an individual “for the collective good” with respect to paying taxes”
    This doesn’t give a license to say, “Well we’ll also take this….”

    “Christ followers, of all people, ought to not resent this.”
    This isn’t true; it’s not freedom. I’m not resenting relieving the poor; I’m resenting telling others they have to help.

    “I gotta admit, I do resent my dollars going to build more bombs, but I definitely don’t resent them going to hopefully alleviate some suffering of others.”
    Glad you admit the first; it’s the same argument…and other’s would prefer military vs alleviating suffering…you call it messed up, but i call them both messed up.

    “After all, Jesus did say “render unto Caesar” and that was to a government (Rome) that didn’t even do squat to make the lives of others better. If ever Jesus had a chance to rip the government, it was then.”
    Actually Jesus was avoiding either telling people to submit to government (and not God) and telling people they don’t have a responsibility to Caesar (becoming an enemy of the state–“worthy” of crucifixion).
    It was a catch 22 question, and Jesus skillfully avoided it. If you’re interested, here’s a great discussion of it–and the actually anti-Rome message that was being portrayed.
    I promise it’s worth it:
    https://mises.org/library/render-unto-caesar-most-misunderstood-new-testament-passage

    “Seriously, practically his whole entire ministry is about sacrificing for others.”
    Yet we’re not talking about “us sacrificing”; we’re talking about MAKING OTHER SACRIFICE.

    “The government doesn’t stop you from doing that. You and I have more disposable income (even after taxes) than like 98% of the rest of the world.”
    This is not relevant as others are not necessarily Christians–let alone do they necessarily agree on what amount is appropriate.

    “Wait, what? So a government with fire protection is demonic if they save my home and belongings (and perhaps my life)? A government is demonic for providing trash pickup, food for the elderly and needy, caring for national parks, providing nourishment for children?”
    Question back at you: have you read the gospels?
    “Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.”

    ALL THE KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD AND THEIR GLORY are the devil’s.

    For the record, all these things listed have been done by private organizations and are often done MUCH MORE EFFICIENTLY than the government ever has–and of course, Christians are called to be “good stewards”. We can’t say the government is. Just look at our unfunded liabilities.

    You are asking good questions Ron; I appreciate this.

  • $144948586

    Thanks for responding to the other conversation about government.
    Question, who did the Jews appeal to before they had their king?

  • Hillary Allen (aka Canuck)

    Are you one of those folks who ends up blowing things up? Angry at everything? Conspiracies every where? Tin foil hat time.

  • Hillary Allen (aka Canuck)

    ‘ Small’ correction: No one seems to care about ,males… White males with money pretty much control things, still.

  • Hillary Allen (aka Canuck)

    Um, I think you’re missing a critical point here… they didn’t come here ‘on vacation’ with their parents. They were born here. Perhaps the Canadian model could be used. Or are we too multi-culti for Don the Con and his slavish followers?

  • $144948586

    I don’t think so, but I think the TV dinners I eat in my darkened living room lit only by the blue fuzz on Fox News and unplugged corded telephone might be making me a little crazy.

  • Ron McPherson

    Not sure if you’re wanting me to say God, or Moses, or Joshua,or the judges.

  • Hillary Allen (aka Canuck)
  • $144948586

    “I give unto Caesar (of the people, by the people and for the people) what is Caesar’s for the continuation of Man, all created equal, to support the life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as I would have others do to me.”
    If Caesar is what “continues man” then, Caesar is God, for He is the one who has numbered our days. And Jesus also told us not to worry where our next meal is coming from for we are worth more than many sparrows.

    “I am not coerced to carry my cross.”
    You may not be, but your good intentions coerce others. And the road to hell is paved in good intentions. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e8b9a08a38e84429606d9260c34eddb493d0ea25580fff017d7eb46d913e467f.jpg

  • $144948586

    And every one of these is check by, you know, “that party” of the left.

  • $144948586

    Good job; particularly on the judges.
    They didn’t have a government or governor, but through cooperation they were able to have law. Anarchism is not a no-structure philosophy, it’s a non-governmental organization of society.

  • Chuck Johnson

    Behave yourself.

  • $144948586

    Lol, oo, he said, “Behave yourself.”

  • Chuck Johnson

    There’s a source for you right there.

  • Ron McPherson

    The problem with that first pic is that the Romans were NOT helping the poor (it’s a false equivalency). It doesn’t portray the context in Jesus’ time.

  • Ron McPherson

    Well, it sure sounds good, even if not very practical (unless we all just get along). But again. If there is no government, and a Native American individual commenced to erecting a log cabin for his family in your front yard (on the premise that his great great great great great grandpappy had the land before you), then who do you appeal to if the government dissolved and there is no land deed establishing your ownership by law?

  • Herm

    Dean, you’re incapable, according to the standards you set, of understanding that I spoke to Matthew 7:12 as governing all bodies of life, including the body of God, which is spirit, not just the body of Man, which is carnal.

    You appear to be hung up within a very narrow definition of the reality of law. The law that all who live must adhere to, or else become destructive to all life, is not an edict enforced by God, Man or any tribe of mankind.

    The carnal law of gravity is not an edict enforced by God or Man. Without it your body, along with its resource of atmosphere, float off this earth to die. With it, should you transgress it by stepping over a thousand foot cliff, in the end you will surely die on the rocks below. The true laws of life apply to all life, equally. No laws we choose to set and enforce for ourselves are permanent nor of value to Man if they serve to weaken Man, rather than strengthen Man.

    You continue to speak as if this land was our land, to do with as we wish, controlled by our tribal enforcement of the laws we choose. In my writing this to you, I was just reminded of my children who thought the same for the home, and the land, they were raised in. It was theirs and would fall under their total control when we, their parents, passed away. It was very uncomfortable when they grew up to find that any bully, with more strength than they, could take anything from them.

    No ownership, familial, national or individual, on earth is permanent. All ownership on earth is no more than a loaned responsibility to learn from and invest in. I, as a responsible parent, invested in my children, who were loaned to me for at least 18 years, and no law I laid down as an edict could supersede in everything do to others as I would have others do to me; others included my children, my nation, my world, my species and my God.

    So, in answer to your question, attempting to define my tribe, I am, no more and no less, a child of Man and a child of God governed solely by laws in truth which regulate the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness for all sentient life with influence, carnal and spirit. As a child of Man, my loaned influence will be returned, in full, within a maximum of 47 revolution of this earth’s revolutions around its sun. Every defined segregated tribe of influence, that you ask to associate me with, didn’t even exist a mere 1,900 years ago (actually less than 500 years ago, but who’s counting?).

    The only laws that regulate to invest in continue constructive life of Man and God are neither secular nor religious. Every law, that must be recognized by all life, consistently has the very same results, or consequences, for the very same action, or inaction, chosen by any life of influence. As influential beings of Man, with no more than awareness than do infants of God have, we are graced tolerance and forgiveness for our childish errors. As Man, we bruise and scar each time we transgress the irreversible laws, but eventually, if we continue to transgress the Law we will be held accountable and lose the opportunity we’ve had to learn to be responsibly aware and influential. Our opportunity to love and be loved.

    So, Dean, do you consider this land our “native nation“, as in the indigenous owners, or are we just temporary in our responsibility? Is your undying allegiance to a tribe of Man or of God, or to the whole of Man and/or God?

  • Herm

    Josh, what governs “natural rights” as versus “civil rights“?

  • Herm

    Josh, you are so far removed from the lessons of the Messiah in pursuit of what you deem yours that it is difficult to refocus you toward the truth of all from your fallacy of self. You have the right, on this earth, to choose to do absolutely anything within your power, constructive (good) and/or evil (destructive). You are subject to the consequences of your chosen action or inaction but this does not remove the right to murder. The Declaration of Independence for the USA suggests that our reason to rebel from tyranny is our acknowledgment that all of mankind has the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness equally.

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

    Matthew 5:38-42 (NIV2011)

    Well, so much for the fallacy of “Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth“. Don’t misinterpret Christ’s diplomacy in beginning with “You have heard that it was said” for being less than neither me or my Father inspired Exodus 21:24, Leviticus 24:20, or Deuteronomy 19:21. Well, so much for the inerrant Bible.

    Neither you, nor I, “own” anything beyond the loan of the responsibility to invest, what has been graced to be momentarily in each of our names, toward the survival of mankind, and the planet earth, to which I am an influential steward and affected member. Everything in my name on this earth can be stripped from me by stronger, self absorbed bullies both legally and illegally.

    So, sue me and take my login information and I will give you my computer as well. Force me to walk with you and I will double it. I am giving to you because you ask, I am not turning away from you because you ask to borrow my time and care.

  • Ron McPherson

    “Because you’re talking subjugation and not voluntary submission.”

    As Christ followers, I’m thinking ‘rights’ go out the window when we truly take up our crosses.

    “… it’s not freedom.”

    Somehow, freedom and cross-bearing do not seem very compatible to me. I love freedoms, but that shouldn’t be what drives me.

    “I’m not resenting relieving the poor; I’m resenting telling others they have to help.”

    Well, if by others you are referring to government coercion upon your unbelieving neighbor, then I suppose that’s admirable in some ways. But as a professed Christ follower, I’m struggling to understand why you resent your taxes going for social programs. Surely, you’re not asserting that MORE people would actually be helped were it not for the government. Not in our materialistic, greedy, and racist society. The church is the most segregated place in America. You certainly can’t believe that eliminating government social programs would actually help inner city kids. Like all the white churches with all the wealth would suddenly rise up and say “hey, now that the government is no longer taking our money, we are now free to feed all the hungry black kids in the slums.”

    “Actually Jesus was avoiding either telling people to submit to government (and not God) and telling people they don’t have a responsibility to Caesar (becoming an enemy of the state–“worthy” of crucifixion). It was a catch 22 question, and Jesus skillfully avoided it.”

    Of course it was a catch 22. And he skillfully answered it. But the answer was still to give to Caesar? He didn’t lie.

    “Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.”

    I’m pretty sure that event dealt with temptation to sell out for personal power, influence, and control, not about paying your taxes, especially when some of those tax dollars go to feed hungry children and helping the less fortunate. The devil, as portrayed in Scripture, is not really into the bit about helping others. Jesus was though.

    “For the record, all these things listed have been done by private organizations and are often done MUCH MORE EFFICIENTLY than the government ever has–and of course, Christians are called to be “good stewards”. We can’t say the government is. Just look at our unfunded liabilities.”

    Probably. And the government isn’t stopping anyone or any organization from dipping into their excess wealth to help the less fortunate now.

  • $144948586

    Actually, the Romans did have a welfare system.
    https://fee.org/articles/poor-relief-in-ancient-rome/

    But there is a mistake in this photo. It says “Can’t we just give our money.”
    It should say, “Can’t we just have the Romans take money from everyone (even non-Christians and those opposedto it)?

    Regardless of the status of a Roman walfare system, Jesus was clear in not forcing another person to follow. “If they reject you, dust the dirt off your feet and go…” There is just no valid argument that Christians should support a system of taxation to accomplish their goals–it is oppressive, even if we say “it’s just a small amount.” It’s not the Christian’s property, it’s “the others” and a Christian should respect it just like Jesus and the rich young ruler–that doesn’t mean we can’t preach against greed.

  • $144948586

    First, what does a government change about the legitimacy of the claim that it is a Native American who owned the land first?

    Second, if they can prove their ownership (and I can’t show voluntary exchange of the land), then it’s legitimately theirs. If not, a government mandate doesn’t change this.

    In addition, this is the importance of community. You could suppose someone might take land by force, BUT the community could respond by force to defend neighbors–if you don’t like this tone, first realize: the government would do this very thing.

    Bob Murphy has a good lesson on development of law and military in an anarchal society in which participation is voluntary.

  • $144948586

    “As Christ followers, I’m thinking ‘rights’ go out the window when we truly take up our crosses.”
    We’re talking about the rights of others.

    “But as a professed Christ follower, I’m struggling to understand why you resent your taxes going for social programs.”
    I’ve not made this claim, Ron. I’ve resented being taxed–which is the dictation of my money not belonging to me and my money goes where I don’t have a say.

    “Surely, you’re not asserting that MORE people would actually be helped were it not for the government.”
    I certainly assert this.
    Volunteer charities have never murdered 200 million people.

    “You certainly can’t believe that eliminating government social programs would actually help inner city kids.”
    I would suggest there’d be fewer inner cities if there were no government.

    “Like all the white churches with all the wealth would suddenly rise up and say “hey, now that the government is no longer taking our money, we are now free to feed all the hungry black kids in the slums.””
    Careful, “white churches” PROBABLY do way more than you think they do.

    “But the answer was still to give to Caesar?”
    No it wasn’t; it was “discern for yourselves what belongs to Caesar; you’re free to think whatever you want. But it is far from clear a statement to give to Caesar.”

    “I’m pretty sure that event dealt with temptation to sell out for personal power, influence, and control, not about paying your taxes, especially when some of those tax dollars go to feed hungry children and helping the less fortunate. The devil, as portrayed in Scripture, is not really into the bit about helping others. Jesus was though.”
    Here’s a better statement from Luke:
    “And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him, “To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.”

    He was talking about all the nations.
    You can also read about God not wanting the Jews to have a king in 1 Sam 8 as well.

    “And the government isn’t stopping anyone or any organization from dipping into their excess wealth to help the less fortunate now.”
    Yes they are. They are out-competing private organizations in vast ways–public school, healthcare, medicare, medicaid, roads…but do you notice, most of these things were failing miserably only sustained by debt issuance and taxation…this is the problem for most world governments. And when the economy contracts and these things end, many will suffer at the hands of it.

  • $144948586

    “You have the right, on this earth, to choose to do absolutely anything within your power”
    Except, of course, when the collective determines that I can’t. And you still call it freedom.

  • Ron McPherson

    Not sure I would classify that as a “welfare” system. And besides, how did that help the Jewish population Jesus was speaking to? The ‘welfare’ system was largely implemented for Roman citizens to prevent starvation such that the masses would not riot. Kind of like bribery, I guess. At any rate, poverty among laborers was rampant still. And the motive for grain laws, in my limited understanding, was to preserve the general supply and to regulate prices, not necessarily to aid the poor. Whatever the tax, it certainly didn’t meet the needs of the poor because it was not a program intended for that purpose. Not sure how that’s comparable to our discussion, but whatever.

  • $144948586

    “Neither you, nor I, “own” anything beyond the loan of the responsibility to invest, what has been graced to be momentarily in each of our names, toward the survival of mankind, and the planet earth, to which I am an influential steward and affected member. ”
    If we don’t then neither does Caesar. And if Caesar doesn’t, then we don’t have to render to him anything. Therefore, we don’t have to pay taxes, because how can we pay with stuff we don’t own?

  • Ron McPherson

    ok

  • Ron McPherson

    Let me try this again. If an individual showed up in your front yard tomorrow and started erecting a house, and refused your pleas to stop, and continued there day after day after day, would you allow him to do it? If not, how would you propose to stop him? Dead serious question.

  • $144948586

    So now the statement is not “They didn’t help the poor.”
    It’s now, “they didn’t help the poor enough, so it’s inadmissible”.

    At some point you’ve gotta pony up and admit what you realize: forced welfare is enslavement of those who are forced to pay for it. To some “good”, we utilize some smaller “bad”….this is a compromise, and obviously you’d agree that, for Christians, the idea of compromise “goes out the window”.

    You’re making value judgments of good and evil, but I’m telling you IT IS ONLY EVIL. Coveting thine neighbors cattle (wealth) is evil. You’re utilizing government by telling God that He can’t do enough through His church so you’ll help Him by shaking down other people for their money. If you truly love your neighbor, you should recognize that he’s your neighbor and you are not living peaceably with him when you demand his tithe, his tax.

  • $144948586

    No, you’re trying to get me to say that “I’d request the police.”
    This isn’t fair as law enforcement is crowded out by the government.

    In any rate, I live in Texas so I’d reserve the right to shoot him.

    But I wouldn’t do that if he’s being peaceful. I could retaliate, burn his stuff down etc. I know that’s what you want me to say. In any case, I’d reserve the right to force him off of my property…but perhaps that’s why we’re called to sell our possessions.

  • Herm

    I don’t understand how they can crush their antagonists, because these antagonists don’t want to be told where to work or who to be friends with–or what their heritage is.

    You don’t understand that we don’t own anything or have any rights at all that are not on loan privileged opportunity of responsibility in each given moment. Stalin, Hitler and any other authoritarian who insists that their rights are above, beyond, and before any other of mankind prove that you have no guaranteed rights to anything.

    You’re deluded to even begin to think you can be responsible to mount your own military, to teach your own school of truth, and protect you and your own from self centered bullies, such as yourself and/or the invading European, Roman Catholic, and Russian imperialists before you in this nation governed of the people, by the people and for the people as one nation, not of many nations made up of each differing person, family or religion within the USA boundaries.

    I am retired. I lead out in many volunteer groups, as a volunteer. Have you ever heard of the term, “Herding Cats”? The USA was not established under a system of volunteer governing to protect the rights of all equally under the direction of the constitution and its evolving amendments. The government was founded with the single most important charter of producing a “more” perfect union. Choosing to define your right to your military, your school, and your ownership is exactly what Stalin, Hitler, Ryan, and Trump choose by suppressing all rights to representation who would oppose them.

    There were two ways to most safely cross the prairies of “wild Indians”, only two. One was alone so as to draw the least attention and pose the least threat to the Native American’s rights. The second was two travel in large wagon trains so that you could circle the wagons to create a fortress against attack. You seem to choose to do neither by, in essence, simply crying, “this is my right, I say I own it, leave me alone!”.

    Man is one. God is one. Man is fragmented by temporal members who choose to depend on themselves in love for themselves led by the will of self. God is united in the Spirit by members who choose to be bound as one in all love for the whole led by the will of the Father. The spirit your espouse is truly the antithesis of the Spirit of God.

    I don’t need any students. As a growing little student (disciple) of the Teacher, and as an empathetic son of Man, I do as my Instructor did before me. I point to where all truth, as you can bear, can be found.

    “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

    John 16:12-13 (NIV2011)

    For children of God it is not whether we have any authority that matters, but by whose authority we choose to follow is most important to live or not. For us there is no more authority left us to be responsible to because Christ, our Brother, has been given all authority in heaven and on earth, for over 1,900 years now. What we speak before these courts of inquiry come from the Holy Spirit who teaches us what to say.

    I have noticed, over and over, that you accuse your opponents who share their truth, that opposes your truth, as being authoritarian. The gospel I preach is no more than the Teacher lives in your presence, available to you directly with all truth as you can bear, and no longer resides in the Holy of Holies, available only to the high priest, since the authority vested in the seat of Moses was removed from the Pharisees, teachers of the law, and the high priest who chose to crucify the Son of God in God’s name. Caiaphas could have checked with the Holy Spirit to ask if Jesus was the Christ but he did not. You can check with the Holy Spirit to ask if what I share with you today is God’s word or not. I would suggest you do.

  • $144948586

    “what governs “natural rights””
    The fact that we innately know when we’ve been violated is enough of an argument.
    We know when something that belongs to us, namely our person, has been violated.

    If you don’t believe me, just watch kids, particularly siblings, play, they tell when another kid steals their toy.

    “what governs “civil rights””
    Wel civil rights only exist in the context of government recognition.
    Since governments marry people, the people of all genders should have civil rights to marry.
    Since governments own your property (the implication of property taxes), the civil right to buy property must be extended to all citizens.
    Since governments own your labor (the implication of income taxes), all people who work must be equally entitled to being taxed–this is definitionally slavery by the way: “owning your labor”.
    And since governments determine civil rights, non-citizens by implication have no legitimate civil right–just the graces of the government in whose jurisdiction they find themselves.

    You can go all metaphysical in appealing to the idea that “we don’t own anything.” But that doesn’t fly for an atheist. Therefore, you have no right to dictate what they, in their judgment, own, because that is definitionally slavery.

  • $144948586

    “Stalin, Hitler and any other authoritarian who insists that their rights are above, beyond, and before any other of mankind prove that you have no guaranteed rights to anything.”
    They believed their defined collective had rights above and beyond, ya fascist.

    “I have noticed, over and over, that you accuse your opponents who share their truth, that opposes your truth, as being authoritarian.”
    Sorry, but this is bullshiit.
    I’ve accused them of being authoritarian, because that’s what their policies are: dictating the personal choices of others even if for “the common good.”
    It is definitionally authoritarian and completely hypocritical for the Christian.
    I don’t call them that because “their truth” opposes “my truth”. I call them that because they’re actively promoting policies that are authoritarian.
    I call them hateful for how they treat me when I come on here and go no where near the extent of derision they pass to me.

    Your theology and your imposition of it on others rests on a notion that people don’t accept. Jesus’ doesn’t have to concern himself with that because Truth doesn’t have to be coercive–or else it just becomes another voice vying for your attention–it just has to be true. And that Truth stands at the door waiting to be let in…it doesn’t demand you open the door, and it doesn’t demand you give your tithe. It says simply, “if you want it, you must deny yourself.”

    This isn’t because you’re forbidden from entering the kingdom, it is because the kingdom of heaven doesn’t affirm oneself; the world does that. It’s impossible to enter without denying yourself….and pushing you ideological positions THROUGH FORCE is not denying yourself, even if you’re doing it for the benefit of others. It is the imposition of your desires–it is NOT denying yourself. Your philosophy is impractical, Herm. At worst, in the vain of coercion, it’s bankrupt.

  • Herm

    But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, “You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? Show me the coin used for paying the tax.”

    They brought him a denarius, and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?”

    “Caesar’s,” they replied. Then he said to them, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”

    When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away.

    Matthew 22:18-22 (NIV2011)

    Perhaps, you don’t know that the official motto of the USA is “out of many, one”. Look up why Abraham Lincoln concluded his Gettysburg address with, “It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

    Caesar is the people of the United states of America. The people of the United States of America are no more God than was Caesar in Jesus’ time on earth. The extra monies from which we pay our taxes are to invest in the roads to improve sharing of goods and companionship, schools of common tested truth (spared parochialism) so that all children grow up to be a resource (social science, physical science and spiritual science (to understand all religions of the world and Man) for the good of their entire nation of people, and to lift up and heal the hurting so that they too can have something to invest into their nation and their world. Taxes do, also, pay for regulation and protection from greed, coveting and bullies at home or abroad so we do have time to continue our slow development of a more perfect union.

    You wrote, “You may not be, but your good intentions coerce others.

    Is this, then, coercive, also?

    Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

    Luke 14:25-27 (NIV2011)

  • Herm

    Until such time as you are proven (the burden of the state) to be destructive to mankind what keeps you from doing anything? Are you not free to do absolutely anything within the same bounds that restrict all others of Man on earth? How much freedom did you have, to do anything, before you were born by the choice of your parents, not by your choice. How much freedom do you expect after your certain death? How much freedom do you have now to visit Mars, or any where beyond the gravitational pull of this earth? You are restricted severely from doing all that could possibly be done in your lifetime throughout the finite universe we see.

  • $144948586

    No, because he doesn’t make everyone become his disciple. Therefore he doesn’t make everyone hate his father and mother. That is not course if, that is simply stating that with my property in this case is Kingdom of Heaven there’s a certain way you can come but this is the criteria. It’s the same thing as entering your house if you don’t want people to wear shoes, that is just the way it is and you have the right to do with your property what you want.
    You really need to stop reading into these texts the course of nature of your philosophy. It is poisoning the well well I should say the Wellspring of what you choose to Proclaim. But this this kind of philosophy is demonic. The government will shoot you with guns if you don’t support them, Jesus wouldn’t let Peter cut the ear off of a centurion.

  • $144948586

    Visiting Mars the parents who birth you are not the same as a government who dictates that they have control over you. The former is simply a scientific limitation or an engineering limitation, and the ladder are the ones who brought you into existence. You would not be here without them. But you can’t say the same thing for government.
    And it doesn’t really matter if everyone is enslaved to the same government as you, it is still enslavement Herm. I mean a 200 and something million people were enslaved to Stalin, then what’s wrong with a million people being enslaved to white Americans? After all the vast majority of people were enslaved to stall Stalin so according to your philosophy that should be fine.

  • Herm

    We are loaned the responsibility to invest, as stewards, toward the good of the earth and the good of Man. We own that responsibility. All the resources that we’ve been graced (no merit on our part) to responsibly give to the good of earth and Man will remain long after we have departed from our responsibility.

    Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

    So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

    Genesis 1:26-27 (NIV2011)

    One mankind (carnal) is in the image, the likeness, of one God (spirit). Mankind is a plurality of “us”, “our”, “they”, (a joined carnal body of males and females) as God is a plurality of “us”, “our”, “they” (a united spirit body of males and females).

    We pay with stuff we were given to pay with that is beyond what we must have to sustain life. As you once alluded to:

    “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes?

    Matthew 6:25 (NIV2011)

  • Dean Daniels

    So…wild guess is anarchy – under which no one can require anything of anyone.

  • Dean Daniels

    Which “writings” do you agree with?

  • $144948586

    You got it.

  • Herm

    If you don’t believe me, just watch kids, particularly siblings, play, they tell when another kid steals their toy.

    That’s so much bullshit that only says you see what you want to see. Children at play with one another already were exposed to the teaching of their parents. Infants tell, in all out self-seeking offense, when another infant takes back their toy that was taken from them. I have watched many a socially healthy infant share without complaint.
    We teach ownership and you were taught wrong, but so, then, was I.

    Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

    Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.

    But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

    When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.

    For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

    1 Corinthians 13:4-13 (NIV2011)

    Please, put the ways of childhood behind you, you need no longer be self-seeking as you were taught.

  • Ron McPherson

    Nothing is stopping God from doing enough through his church now.

  • Ron McPherson

    Ah ok, so you’d “reserve the right to shoot him.” Nice

  • $144948586

    This philosophy does not work for atheists. Therefore you have no domain over an atheist. Therefore, you have no right to dictate what they do with what they deem as their property. To make any other claim is to give State Authority it is fascism.

  • $144948586

    You can take it or leave it, Ron. The fact is that that is the right that you have today in many states. That being said, that’s not what I said I would do. I’m pretty certain I said that I wouldn’t. But you can characterize me as a bad person, that’s okay. It just makes you just honest. Because the arguments can speak for themselves, and you can’t escape the fact that what you push as policy and it is and it is. It is unfit for Christians. What’s worse is that you’re choosing to do something that is unfit for Christians Even In This Very conversation, marginalizing me. What a hypocrite.

  • Dean Daniels

    Herm, thank you for your response – I am intrigued. I responded earlier to another in this thread about “the nations” thus > As for sovereignty – has not God predestined “the nations”? Acts 17:26-27 “From one man He has made every nationality to live over the whole earth and has determined their appointed times and the boundaries of where they live. He did this so they might seek God, and perhaps they might reach out and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us.” Christianity is global but our faith is local. He builds the Church – not us. When it comes to Caesar – we give to Caesar what is his (secular) and to God what is His (ourselves). Consider Luther’s comment on secular authority HERE: https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/497991-luther-and-calvin-on-secular-authority-cambridge-texts-in-the-history-o

  • Ron McPherson

    Those were your own words. You said you wouldn’t if he was being “peaceful” whatever that means. Here’s the point. You just proved that anarchy wouldn’t work unless you just believe in the strongest shall survive. Without gov’t, who says you are the rightful owner of the property to begin with? The individual could just as easily claim you merely purchased stolen goods because the rightful owner was his native American great great grandfather whose land was stolen from him. Your whole claim to being an anarchist breaks down in this very hypothetical example. You don’t want to say you’d call the police (because that’s obviously funded by the govt). So your only other option is to take matters into your own hands (which doesn’t bode so well for either you or your ‘offender’). Further, you might be living on land not even rightfully yours, unless you’re depending on the law of govt, to which you claim should have no authority to govern to begin with.

  • Herm

    You are so confused it is getting time to quit responding to your flailing.

    Stalin, Hitler and Trump were and are a collective of one who would throw any of their disciples under the bus for opposing their will. That is the definition of authoritarian; one authority in power.

    One God; one Father, one Teacher, one Instructor and one Lord with all authority in heaven and on earth is by definition authoritarian. There can only be one truth which in policy would be your definition of authoritarian. Children don’t get the opportunity to choose a different reality especially when subject to such a limited perspective in experience.

    It is definitionally authoritarian and completely hypocritical for the Christian” but is not by definition hypocritical for a student (disciple) of the Messiah.

    “If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    John 14:15-21 (NIV2011)

    “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

    John 16:12-15 (NIV2011)

    I testify to you today that Jesus did not lie. I see to accept and know the Spirit of truth immersed with and in me, without pause, without end, right now, and have for the past 23 years. He guides me into all truth as I can bear. This is not my philosophy, religion, dogma or theology. This is promised to me to be my eternal relationship as a student sibling of my Brother Jesus. I have eternal faith that I will not ever be left orphaned by my divine family of God who I know to love with all my heart, with all my soul, with all my strength, with all my mind.

    So far, you have shown me no more relationship with and in God than had the Pharisees, Sadducee, Caiaphas with his council, and all of God’s chosen people voting to crucify the Son of Man/Son of God/the Christ/the Messiah in the name and usurped authority of God. Woe be to them.

    I am done here.

  • $144948586

    Where did he forcr the rich young ruler to be his disciple and make him sell his possessions?
    Where did he force Peter to grt out of the boat?
    Where did he force the Rpmans to give the people mord than 5 loaves and 2 fish?
    Where did he force other households to provide wine in Cans?
    Where did he force perfume to be poured on his feet?
    When Herm?
    Your God is a tyrant. You Jesus is a tyrant. Your Jesus is not that of the Way the Truth and the Life.
    Like the Roman of his day, you’d rather force submission.

  • $144948586

    The individual would need to be able to prove it or it mean nothing.

    Ron, you’re speaking of hypotheticals to disprove my case. The fact is, our government murders people. Our government enslaves people. Our participation gives approval to do these things, even the parts we disagree with.

    You can hide from reality in hypothetical, but you’re still denying the reality of the situation. And that is anti-Christ. Never speak to me about compromising oneself as a Christian again.

  • Herm

    Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

    Matthew 28:18-20 (NIV2011)

    I hope this comes lightly enough to you to be intriguing and painful, for either of us.

    Jesus knew the earth was round and that the heavens did not revolve around the earth and did not even imply differently to appease the prevalent science of the day. Paul, in his personal letter and books clearly did not, and was subject throughout his ministry to errors of science he had been educated in as a Pharisee. Jesus knew the facts and fallacies in the Genesis story that had passed down orally only for centuries before Moses wrote it down. Paul did not know of the civilizing of the Fertile Crescent 7,000 years prior and that the earth was fully populated by hunter gatherers prior. Jesus did.

    The interpretative study of God based on the scriptures, which is all Man could bear at the time, gave full authority for the scholars and temple officers, presiding from the seat of Moses, to actually lead the masses to vote to kill the Son of Man/Son of God in the name of God. Both the Old Testament and the New Testament contain conjecture and surmise, sometimes in sincere musing and sometimes for political gain, that God (as the Father, the Son, the Spirit of truth, or the Prophets who knew the truth) did not write nor endorse.

    The Bible is valuable when it is read so as to bring one to become immersed with and in the Teacher, to be guided into all truth as (s)he can bear. The Bible is a 4,000 year old chronicled testament to each writers inspiration that shares their relationship with God. It has been much longer since Christ ascended than it was between Moses’ and Jesus’ birth. Do you feel orphaned? I don’t.

    Paul’s book to Theophilus (Acts) was really meant to go no further, though contained within are many valuable stories as to how Christianity grew and, even tells of the only reliable word of God in chapter 4 verse 31 (the Advocate came then, before the Bible). It, and all the books of the Bible, are a compilation of letters and books that were meant to stand on their own chronicling Man’s relationship with God through testimony. It was others, without that relationship, who gathered and compiled complimentary testimony into differing collections until scholarly councils took it upon themselves to choose the best canon. Long story short, the witnessed quotes (first, second and third hand) of what Jesus said are very consistent, though hardly any captured exactly verbatim (as would have been the case if the pen of the author was led by the Holy Spirit).

    Caesar (in our governmental case of the people, by the people, and for the people are Caesar) builds and maintains the roads, provides protective services that individuals cannot, and coordinates by enforced regulations to make a more perfect, stronger, safer and providing continuing national resources by investing in education along with mental, physical and spiritual health for all of their receptive, sharing and caring citizens … a more perfect union. Since no individual, in a healthy and thriving nation, could possibly have as much abundance without their nation’s infrastructure returning some of the profit to reinvest in our nation only makes sense.

    As to God predestining anything is a poor assumption that an almighty God must know it all, must have experienced to know all from the beginning to the end of eternity. The story of the rainbow, as a sign that there would be no more worldwide floods, should have defeated that notion. Mankind didn’t lose all its worldwide population, except for a chosen few, as was touted relative to Noah.

    God is real and enjoys adventures into the unknown as much as the rest of us. If God could predict what we each would do in any given circumstance it would be a boring drag to even associate with mortals such as us. The appeal to eternal life isn’t finally sitting on a cloud playing a harp (though it might take me that long to learn to play anything) or on my knees singing praises to the Lord. The appeal is that there is no end to learning, overcoming struggles, experiencing shared adventures not even anticipated until we round the next bend together.

    The church that Christ builds is spirit and in the Spirit, only. There is not one carnal accoutrement in the church Jesus builds and administers as High Priest.

    Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

    John 4:23-24 (NIV2011)

    Jesus called us over 1,900 years ago to go out into all nations to make students for Him, like us, who are immersed, whelmed, baptized with and in the Spirit of truth in our Father’s and His name. Nations were not just physical sovereign plots of land but were, also, religions, and nomad tribes.

    Please, understand that without the image of God mankind is no more than an animal species that evolved over the 4.5 billion carnal years of the earth and/or the 13.82 billion carnal years of the universe (the beginning of the big bang). With the image of God spirit is available to begin to understand as human infants have carnal available to begin to understand. I will not exceed 120 years of life and will feel graced to get tomorrow as and extension to this one time opportunity I have to be aware and influential on this earth. Jesus knew this, and infinitely (comparatively) more than I do today, but didn’t ruin the step by step learning we have accomplished as mankind since Jesus’ time on earth. Now, we’re not exactly sure how much Jesus knew but He didn’t blow anything for us by leading us astray, possibly due to the one appearing as a dove to lead Him into the wilderness and teach Him to prepare for His three year ministry.

    Thank you for both your response and being intrigued. Though all that I have shared with you is true, as far as I could bear, don’t accept anything I share as any more than intriguing. Intriguing enough to go directly to the Teacher in your midst who can guide you personally into all truth as you can bear, all the way to the end of eternity (please, forgive my childish attempt at divine humor, I do have faith enough to know exactly how long eternity is). Consider that anything written on any of these religious blogs could be tested, assembled and compiled into a book of testimony inspired by each of our relationships with Gods, even when most is no more than an interpretive study of God (theology). If you want the truth of and from God you must go to the source and the good news, the gospel according to Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, Luke, Matthew, Mark and John, is that the Spirit of all truth is available to you and is no longer hidden behind the curtains of the Holy of Holies.

  • Ron McPherson

    So how would you “prove” that you, instead of him, are the rightful owner to the land? I know what you’d do. You’d show him your govt issued land deed and depend upon the govt to enforce it. Anarchy my rear lol. And for you to accuse me of being anti-Christ for calling out a social construct built upon the strongest shall survive is ridiculous.

  • Herm

    Josh, you are not being forced to live beyond what your animal instinct for survival will carry you. The Way is the Spirit of truth. If you have no need to submit to the truth, offered only by the Advocate, then live out the remainder of your carnal life with our blessing, our empathy and our love. When you die to this world you will comfortably pass into knowing nothing. Truth is not something that allows us to choose, it does not force itself upon others, it does not demand submission, it simply is the truth.

  • $144948586

    The Way is not me forcing others to follow a system.

  • Herm

    The system, like atmosphere, gravity and tearing muscles to gain strength is the system. Ignore those systems and you die. Teaching others to abide in those systems, to enable those systems to work for them, and they live.

  • Dean Daniels

    Herm –

    1. We have different viewpoints at this juncture but we are quite resonant as to where and how Truth is found. My Christian journey has been over most of the denominational terrains one can expect in Western Christianity (mixed with Aristotelianism or Scholasticism) and even Asian Christianity (mixed with Confucianism). I expect our primary difference(s) may be found primarily emanating from our eschatological expectations – I am not firm in mine, having unmoored myself from them some years ago to hike trails in the Amillennial Camp without pitching a tent.

    2. I do not adhere to the fundamentalist equation of “inerrancy of the Bible” nor a strict “Canon-only” adherence. That said, neither do I believe things in the Scriptures are in error but that they were written by men. The Law and the History written by men as to their recollections and the words of the Prophets as men led by the Spirit. The Gospels and Acts are witness reports and the epistles were letters to Churches and people with Revelation falling under the Prophetic led Spirit. Some think the Canon was set in apart to the dismissal of the other writings rather than a “Core Syllabus” I believe the Apocryphal and Near-Canonical works are equally valid along with the patristic writings all the way up to the Reformation.

    3. What is most interesting in Paul visit to Mars Hill (Acts 17) is that it is a written record of Paul engaging a people with whom he cannot cite OT scripture; being forced instead to speak into their understandings (frame of reference).

  • Daniel Fisher

    Hillary,

    Respectfully, I fear it is you who are missing the critical point. People who are “born here” in the United States are not the concern of either this article nor my comment. The article above deals with Jorge, who was brought to the United States when he was 10 years old; he was not “born here”. Similarly, the immigration policy under discussion (DACA, or “Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals”) specifically deals with those who “arrived” during their “childhood”…i.e., those who entered the United States as minors, not who were born here.

    Jorge was deported because he was born in Mexico, and thus is a citizen of Mexico, and illegally entered the United States (though not of his own volition) when he was 10 years old. He was not born here. Nor were any of those under discussion related to the DACA policy.

    If we are going to discuss the policy that Dr. Corey brought up, i suggest it is critical that we have the basic facts clear.

  • Bones

    Lol…..do you think it would have mattered if the injuns had immigration laws, you twat?

  • Daniel Fisher

    Matthew, I’d appreciate hearing your perspective further, and what specific policy you would outline. Do I understand you to be suggesting that international policy ought to be that, if I hopped on a plane tomorrow with my children, and landed in any country whatsoever in the world, that my children should then instantly be given full and permanent legal residency status simply on the basis that I bought them a plane ticket and brought them there?

    Is there any country in the world that would so immediately grant instantaneous permanent legal residency to any and every minor that enters their country?

  • Bones

    Derrr nations are artificial human constructs derp.

    Look at a world map 100 years ago…..

  • Bones

    So god predestiined the f### ups in Yugoslavia and the middle east with artificial national borders imposed on ethnicities and tribes from colonial powers.

    Sounds like a great plan…..

    And Luther’s plan worked great said Adolf with a nod and a wink.

  • Bones

    Yeah you better change the subject seeing you’re being schooled in political thought.

    No.
    I dont.whereas you dont think locking gay people and immigrants up is.

    Wonder which Jesus would rail against.

    I’d say killing gay people would be more authoritarian and conservative than making you pay taxes which even jesus did.
    I dont think jesus killed any gay people or rounded up immigrants though.

  • Bones

    Lol the anarchist trump supporter who celebrates the hunting down of immigrants.
    We’re sick of hearing your hypocritical sanctimonious ill thought out garbage.

    Never speak to us of natural rights and government abuse again.

  • Bones

    There isnt a natural law against murder nor against stealing stuff nor screwing someones partner.
    Have you looked at the natural world?

    Animals kill each other over food, territory and mates all the time.

    Our primordial ancestors did the same.
    Our cultures have evolved social laws which led to Locke’s formulating the natural laws.
    They simply didnt exist for people for thousands of years before.

    It is true…
    Sorry that goes against your worldview

  • Bones

    Did josh buy his house off a native american otherwise I smell a large dose of hypocrisy.?

  • Bones

    History shows us that conservatism DENIES the rights of individuals eg anyone who isnt white, heterosexual or male.

    In fact it longs for the time when such laws could be brought back to uphold (conserve) traditions in society which include taking rights awayfrom people which conservatives believe shouldnt have them.. that is the essence of conservatis…it wants to conserve social values.
    Notice in your usual lies you’ve included conservatives eg the fascist mussolini and hitler

    And for the record.

    Progressivism is the support for or advocacy of improvement of society by reform. As a philosophy, it is based on the Idea of Progress, which asserts that advancements in science, technology, economic development, and social organization are vital to the improvement of the human condition.

    You do live in a society right?

    Not a collection of individuals.
    Famous progressives – mlk and black civil rights, the antislavery movemen,t womens suffragettes movement, gay rights who ALL fought against conservatives who denied them their individual rights..

  • Tim

    But what does that scripture actually mean? I don’t think it’s referring to what you seem to be implying. Particularly given the fact that borders and nation names have changed so much over time. I think you’re trying to be way more literal with that scripture than is warranted.

    Also, following the law and doing the right thing are not always synonymous.

  • Matthew

    I probably should have been clearer in my initial post.

    If parents decide to take a holiday to, say, Thailand with their two children and the intent is to merely enjoy Phuket for 2 weeks, then no, Thai citizenship shouldn´t automatically be granted to the children.

    My main point is that children of parents who immigrated illegally to the U.S. shouldn´t be held responsible for their parent´s decision — especially if the children have grown up in America, lived there for many years, have been educated there, pay taxes there, and know of no other home than America.

    Jorge Garcia should not have been sent back to Mexico.

  • Matthew

    It does seem to suggest that God appointed times and national boundaries in order that through these constructs humans might seek him. Honestly, though, I have no idea why national boundaries as we understand them in the modern world are a necessary component for man´s seeking of God.

    ??

  • Matthew

    And the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls … and tenement halls …

  • Ron McPherson

    …and whispered in the sound of silence…

  • Daniel Fisher

    In general, I am in sympathy with you…. but establishing policy to protect those we ought to protect while not opening it up to all manner of abuses is tricky. To follow your illustration further, please consider what it sounds like you are suggesting:

    —if I take a (legal) vacation to Thailand with my children, obeying the limits on visas, passport, immigration control, etc., my children should NOT be granted Thai citizenship nor legal residency status.

    —however, if I illegally sneak into Thailand, bypassing passport control, or illegally overstay my visa, and manage to live under the radar for a year or two, then my children should be granted Thai citizenship and/or legal residency?

    I completely sympathize, and think Mr. Garcia’s situation is a sad case of the letter of the law being executed in a situation that was not the original intent of the law. But ignoring or disregarding immigration policy I don’t think is the answer. rather fixing it with common sense fixes when policy creates harm.

  • Matthew

    I suppose it is trickier than I initially thought. Thanks.

    Case by case basis is probably the best approach with a good dose of erring on the side of grace and mercy and compassion, rather than on the side of the exact letter of the law.

  • Ron McPherson

    “I call them hateful for how they treat me when I come on here and go nowhere near the extent of derision they pass to me.”

    Lol. Just yesterday you called me a hypocrite and my beliefs anti-Christ, not for any derision slung your way, but for attempting to point out the fallacy of your anarchist position. Like you feel misused by others typing from a keyboard on an Internet forum. How on earth are we to believe you would somehow prosper under total anarchy?

  • Matthew

    On the boats and on the planes … they´re coming to America …

  • Tim

    I imagine that if we dug into the original language and context, we would find some clues.

  • Dean Daniels

    X’actly! Laws DON’T matter when the the people are in rebellion. Rebellion is not found in the hearts of God’s people.

  • Dean Daniels

    Nations are not permanent – God sets up the nations and sets down the nations – God didn’t stop raising up nations after Christ’s resurrection – they certainly are not raising themselves up.. An interesting read is King Agrippa’s speech to the Jews (Josephus: Wars of the Jews) plotting rebellion against Rome. He accuses them of rebelling for nothing because the other more worthy nations (and there is quite a list) accepted being absorbed or were annihilated – Rome gave a wide preference to Judah – and still they refused. As we know…70AD-130AD wiped them off the map.

  • Dean Daniels

    Does God work “in spite” of Man?

  • Dean Daniels

    Seeing as Man has already been blamed…who’s feet are you going to lay the blame of that?

  • Dean Daniels

    TIM – I agree that law = Right is not true. But God requires that we follow the Laws ‘set by humans” regardless – if even to our death. Scripture sets that standard whether we are under an wicked ruler/boss or a righteous ruler/boss is not a difference – we all carry the burden. God is not interested in the ruler but what is in our hearts and every generation must go through tribulation (some sooner, some later, some always, some hardly).

  • Dean Daniels

    I suggest it is because MAN cannot accept diversity (difference). First thing God did was divide the Gender of Man, then Man into Nations. Man thinks unity only exists when he controls it – he cannot accept what “looks divided” and yet God’s unity exists in division and in spite of division – lest any Man boast of unity.

  • Dean Daniels

    Applause!

  • Hillary Allen (aka Canuck)

    You are correct… not born here, brought here. As children. And you call them illegal. I call them children who were brought here and are now here, trying to do what we all want to do… work, love, raise a family, contribute to the larger society (and yes, if allowed to live here legally,. would pay taxes which support us all. Especially now as the population ages, and young people can’t keep the social security net strong, it is essential to get all young folks to work, paying taxes, looking after you, the older Americans. It is despicable to think you would send them away from the only home they have known since they were kids. Heartless, and certainly not pro-family. And again, try the Canadian model. Our similarities may make us strong, but our differences make us stronger. Ours is strength through diversity. Too bad some folks can’t handle it.

  • Hillary Allen (aka Canuck)

    Nope. And if you really believe that, you ARE uninformed. And if you don’t really believe that (I mean, Donald Trump doesn’t have an obsession with punishment, rampant cronyism, protecting corporate power, wants to control mass media, isn’t a nationalist, loves to identify enemies (media, women, democrats, brown people) – and I believe you don’t, then your are disingenuous. And ignorant for pretending to not know the difference. You aren’t preaching conservatism… you’re preaching fascism,and trying to label it incorrectly. Reagan would roll over in his grave if he saw the state of the right wing in America right now.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=los9WulxBjM

  • InvisibleInk

    Josh, grow up.

  • Matthew

    Do you have any thoughts?

  • InvisibleInk

    Jesus didn’t “make” anybody pay taxes, Bones.

  • InvisibleInk

    Herm, what you’re referring to is the concept of free will, not natural rights.

  • InvisibleInk

    The twentieth century is replete with examples of mass murder carried out on a scale never before seen in human history, e.g. Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. Humans haven’t naturally evolved to any greater understanding or acknowledgement or respect for human life or individual rights. Your apparent belief, Bones, that the process of evolution has somehow, over the course of human history, slowly but surely diminished the darkness that resides within the human heart is both foolish and unfounded.

  • Ron McPherson

    I don’t think Bones was saying that Jesus made people pay taxes, he was saying that Jesus himself paid taxes

  • $144948586

    Ron, you are a hypocrite. And your beliefs of suppression are the anti-thesis of Jesus…they are anti-Christ.

  • $144948586

    You don’t teach them to abide, Herm. You teach them to make others submit to your will.

  • $144948586

    Damn it, Herm. Quit avoiding the question. Jesus never forced anyone to do anything.
    You are telling people that their will must be suppressed for the good of mankind, regardless of if they want what you will.

  • $144948586

    Ron, crowding-out by government is an effect. The fact that I have to show a government issued document is not because that’s they only cause of legitimacy; it’s just a testimony to the pervasiveness of government in our lives–regardless of our desire for it. Any use of this point of fact is circular as it takes government’s necessity as a given.

    To this end, I guess you’d just piss on the judges of the OT and upon God’s words about what a king would do to the people.

    “And for you to accuse me of being anti-Christ for calling out a social construct built upon the strongest shall survive is ridiculous.”
    I didn’t accuse you of being anti-Christ…I accused your teachings of oppressive the wills of others for your purposes anti-Christ.
    You taking that as ad hominem is your problem.

    That being said, I’m not the one advocating force through a system of taxes that is just “pennies”–which itself is a lie. Conflating that with Jesus or the early church is really no different than accusing Jesus of working for Beelzebub.

  • $144948586

    I didn’t say Republicans are any different, but also–Donald Trump is not a Republican.

    “you’re preaching fascism”
    By telling people that government DOESN’T have the answers; pathetic argument.

    “Reagan would roll over in his grave if he saw the state of the right wing in America right now.”
    Reagan wasn’t conservative either.

  • $144948586

    What a weird thing to say.
    Here I am pro non-coercion (thus not willing to enslave anyone to my will), and here you are commanding me.

  • Herm

    Thank you Dean.

    I am impressed with your independence in seeking the truth. In my long past world religion days of discovery I stayed awhile with Confucius I learned from him to be introspective in my search. That was the beginning of realizing that infinity is as much a microcosm as it is a macrocosm. I’ve since learned that boundaries serve most to give each of us a limitation of dimension, from within which we can more safely relate to the one eternal and infinite truth, as we can each bear. I began my scholastic pursuits in spiritual sciences, which then led to social sciences and finally required embracing physical sciences in order to tether my enthusiasm to a consistent and comfortable point of reference that I could work out from, and back to when I stretched my childish limitations. I consider the borders of the space I work within (I might have dangerously escaped once, twice, or so … as intrigued children will do risking to learn) as my ever expanding playpen graced me to grow from while increasing in awareness of what I can see through and beyond the rails.

    We each have our different perspectives of what we can see beyond our reach. We each will talk more about what we see, but have yet to touch, rather than what we have matured to take for granted. This brings to mind driving a car. The average driver doesn’t noticed the muscle memory they exercise to securely perform five, or more, coordinated body maneuvers simultaneously while their attention is captivated by the rapidly changing surroundings outside of their control and grasp. When something goes wrong we can usually think back to what we did as the cause. When all things seem right, when asked, we can only immediate recall what was new.

    Each independent sentient particle of life (I now like to think of each as a single body comprised of responsible heart, soul, strength, mind), spirit and carnal, is unique, always has been, always will be. As many as have been graced existence with awareness and influence, as there has been since no beginning, there was an infinite potential number of more life that could have been, but weren’t to be. Life, carnal and spirit, is an opportunity exponentially more valued, for each and all, as we grow to more perfectly share, constructively and empathetically, our differences with, and for, all sentient life within and beyond our borders of safety and comfort.

    I agree that each and every author of the Bible, or any who sincerely are inspired to chronicle their spirit consciousness, did not write in error. I cannot, although, accept any of what is written in any long standing book of religious direction at face value, as my spiritual owner’s manual. A supporting example, of why I am so cautious, would be the testimony witnessing Christ haranguing the teachers of the law (scribes). The scribes were the few literate people, within a community, tasked with reading scripture to the illiterate public. They, also, copied, by hand, any passing copy of scripture, not in their library, in order to have a local copy at their disposal for further research, discussion and reference. This was an arduous task accomplished under extremely poor conditions compared to what we have available today to share and copy text, plus not all scribes were scrupulous, intentionally or unintentionally. Originals (the “autographs”) of differing hand written copies of scripture do not exist in anyone’s possession today, that we are aware of.

    If we gain nothing else from the lessons learned from the Messiah’s crucifixion, this is first and foremost what we can all relate to today: No one messes with an almighty God having eyes and ears everywhere at all times, especially when considered a potentially wrathful god of vengeance. Within the “chosen people of God”, there were no greater, sincere, and respected scholars, and keepers of the Holy Scripture, than the Pharisees, Sadducee, the politically placed high priest with his council, and the teachers of the law. By their considered interpretation of scripture, and the authority vested in them by God, too few recognized Jesus as the potential prophesied Messiah. It was not even a consideration, among any, that the Christ would ever suggest being the Son of God or, for that matter, tout being the Son of Man. If there had been any doubt the high priest, Caiaphas at this time, was allowed by God to seek the Holy Spirit’s counsel from behind the curtain of the Holy of Holies (even with the Ark of the Covenant missing). Caiaphas did not seem to even consider a carpenter from the Galilee could possibly be the Christ, much less have any authority of God as the Son. The most sincere, literate and responsible of God’s chosen people instigated the crucifixion of the Son of God in God’s name, supported by the popular vote of an illiterate crowd who trusted their only source for scriptural truth. In many respects, they were a religious people worshiping at the alter spiritually inscribed: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD (Acts 17:23).

    Paul’s sermon from the Ares Rock is notable to me, today, because due to my retired years I have accepted the opportunity to have become an active member, and officer, of ARES. I will leave that until another day.

    Paul relied on the metaphor of creation found in the scriptures that he had so diligently, he did all things, studied as ponce a disciple of the Pharisees.

    The real good news (the gospel) is, ever since the curtain was torn top to bottom, even the illiterate have no excuse for not accepting the counsel of God in their midst, and boldly speaking the word of God, except when they do not see Him because they are looking for and from the image of Man and not the image of God, they have been so graciously gifted. The Teacher is available to all, literate and illiterate equally, who sincerely seek God, by any name, from within any nation of birth, and no longer just the high priest, which is now Jesus for all of God’s chosen people from all nations of Man.

    I do not dismiss any writing presented to me because scholars, more literate than I, tell me that I should. My time is limited to finite boundaries, so I rely mostly on the Guide to lead me in my next step of discovery. It was like a very positive blast from the past for you to have reminded me of my relationship with Confucius, thank you.

    I have reminisced long enough for today. I thank you for prompting my revisiting of many steps along the path that has led me here!

    Love you!

  • Herm

    Thank you! I am not doubting free will, I am questioning “natural rights”. If one can do something, free will or not, does that mean they have some natural right to do so, or do they occasionally simply transgress rights they do not naturally possess?

    My sense, at this time, is pretty sure that none have a right, an entitlement, to anything naturally. In my analogy it is clear that mankind was entitled to freely choose to kill the Son of God in God’s name. Was Christ entitled to more life on earth? Apparently not, according to the exercised free will of the reigning authorities on earth who were legally responsible to this choice.

  • Herm

    You truly are an insolent loner. Just exactly what are you trying to teach us?

  • $144948586

    That your doctrine of forcing your will upon others is not what Jesus taught.

  • SamHamilton

    Here we go again…

    Mr. Corey starts out his blog post addressing “conservative Christians.” So I think, oh, he’s talking to me…I’m a Christian and I’m politically conservative, most of the time (or perhaps he means theologically conservative, because those two things aren’t the same thing as we all know, right?, but that’s me most of the time too).

    He then proceeds to make an unsubstantiated assertion – that being pro-life is a “total farce.” I think the assumption behind this assertion is that because Mr. Trump does some things that are anti-life (like talk about bombing other countries) and many Christians who oppose abortion voted for him, they’ve compromised their principles or something like that… I think this argument is ridiculous, but anyway…as I read on I realize that’s not the topic of this blog post.

    So…next Mr. Corey informs us that being “pro-family” is really just code for “anti-gay.” Hmmm…I seem to remember folks on the Religious Right using that term long before gay issues even reached national prominence. And here’s a Family Research Council (and you don’t get more Religious Right-y then FRC) report from 2008 talking about 25 Pro-Family Policies (replace “dot” with .)

    Downloads dot frc dot org/EF/EF11D02.pdf

    You can skim it if you like, but I’ll let you know that most of the 25 items have nothing to do with gay people.

    But moving on from this second lazy slur we get to the meat of this blog post…and I realize that Mr. Corey isn’t talking to me at all. He’s talking to “Trump supporting Christians.” And he’s not really even talking about them because, no doubt, some of them, even many of them, don’t believe people like Jorge Garcia are the people our government should be deporting.

    So once again, Mr. Corey is getting hackles up by lumping a bunch of people together based on unnecessary labels rather than directly addressing the people he has a problem with – people who think that deporting people like Mr. Garcia is a good thing. Those are the people who should have their “pro-family” credentials questioned – not all “conservative Christians.” Mr. Corey should read a great little book I just finished reading called How to Think by Alan Jacobs. It’s less about the logic of thinking, and more about how to have discussions with people with whom you have different opinions on things. If he followed Mr. Jacobs’ advice he’d avoid many of the problems here and might even influence people who have a different perspective than he does rather than just preach to the converted.

    (On a side note, does Mr. Corey really think that people in positions like Mr. Garcia didn’t get deported under previous administrations? Did Mr. Corey question anyone’s bona fides in the past when politicians they supported presided over unjust deportations? Was there a blog post written during the Obama Administration calling out the supposed hypocrisy of his Christian supporters when President Obama bombed foreign countries or his administration’s deportations resulted in family break-ups?)

  • Herm

    How am I forcing anyone by restating what Jesus said, and I have tested, is the irrefutable sum of the law, God’s will, that in everything do to others as you would have others do to you?

    Perhaps, my pointing to the Spirit of truth to guide you into all truth as you can bear is interpreted by you as suppressing your will in favor of my will, is it?

    Perhaps, my suggesting that you own nothing but responsibility in your name offends your sense of entiltlement. My suggesting that you have no more right, entitlement, to any piece of earth than any other occupant may seem over powering to you, if so, teach me why I am wrong, with evidence.

    I would suppose that Jesus stating that you will not inherit eternal life if you cannot follow some very restrictive guidelines doesn’t necessarily force you into submission to our Father’s will, but neither does anything I have shared with you, that I know by testing from personal experience, as truth force you into submission to my will.

    What exactly are you fighting?

    “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Matthew 5:17-20 (NIV2011)

    I happy and sad for you that Jesus, who you clearly do not know, doesn’t force you to do anything.

  • Herm

    … by forcing your will upon me???

  • SamHamilton

    There were hundreds of examples of families being broken up in the last Administration too. The Obama Administration touted a record number of deportations. Trump talks nastier though.

    We need to fix our laws, as Daniel said, so that people who are settled here with families don’t get sent home. This is not solely a problem with the Trump Administration.

  • $144948586

    What have I forced upon you?

  • $144948586

    “How am I forcing anyone by restating what Jesus said”
    Because you vote to tax others to give to whom the state deems is needy, because “no one owns anything”.
    You support suppressing people whose speech you deem is hateful (you’ve admitted to this in prior posts).
    You believe it’s OK to force families in to public schools “for the good of humanity”.

  • SamHamilton

    And you call them illegal
    Daniel didn’t call people “illegal.” Daniel said they entered illegally.

    It is despicable to think you would send them away from the only home they have known since they were kids.

    Daniel didn’t say he supports sending folks in Mr. Garcia’s position back to their country of origin. He only questioned whether it was a “no-brainer” not to do so. In another comment, he actually said we should make exceptions for people like Mr. Garcia and allow them to stay.

    I agree with you, Matthew and Daniel – we should allow people in this situation to stay in the U.S.

  • Herm

    You are blind to your own affect. We are done!!!

  • $144948586

    I’m honestly asking, what have I forced upon you?

  • Herm

    That your doctrine of forcing your will upon others is not what Jesus taught.

    Where is your substantiation?

  • $144948586

    I’ve already told you:
    “Where did he force the rich young ruler to be his disciple and make him sell his possessions?
    Where did he force Peter to get out of the boat?
    Where did he force the Romans to give the people more than 5 loaves and 2 fish?
    Where did he force other households to provide wine in Cana?
    Where did he force perfume to be poured on his feet?
    When Herm?”

    Again though, where am I forcing anything upon you?

  • apoxbeonyou

    #Whataboutism

  • Ron McPherson

    For the record, no, I’m not “advocating force through a system of taxes” nor am I “conflating that with Jesus or the early church”. Either you’re just being dishonest, or your obsession against all things gov’t has so thoroughly skewed your ability to reason that you think that anybody not sharing your own hatred and paranoia of the gov’t taking one’s hard earned wages must, by default, be a lover of all things gov’t. I gotta be honest here. You come off sounding like your priority in life is all about hanging onto your stuff. If the gov’t came by force and took every last penny of yours, would you be seeking the kingdom of God and his righteousness, or would you join a militia, take up arms, and try to get back what is yours? If your treasures are truly in heaven, not here on this earth, then let the gov’t have what they want. If Rome compels you to go one mile, then go two.

    What I am suggesting is that your idea that all functions of the gov’t as being demonic is silly and comes across as coming from a mindset of “they’re just out to get me”. If true, that is an unhealthy state to be in, especially from one professing Christ. When some of those gov’t dollars go to actually assist others to survive in a life you know nothing about, then no, that’s not the working of Beelzebub. That just makes you look sillier. Jesus said render unto Caesar. If you want to be a Christ follower, then deal with it. Jesus did not spend his ministry railing against the taxation imposed by Rome. Sorry, it wasn’t at the top of his list. He actually had far more problems with the religious elite abusing the temple system to get wealthy off the backs of common Jews. He had more of a problem with the religious elite excluding the marginalized. He devoted his attention to loving God and neighbor. That requires more than a lifetime itself.

    Peace.

  • Ron McPherson

    Have you read the bible?

  • SamHamilton

    The first five paragraphs of my comment address the content of Mr. Corey’s blog post. That’s not “whataboutism.” Only my parenthetical could be called “whataboutism,” and there’s nothing wrong with engaging in a bit of it after engaging the substance.

  • Herm

    Where did he force the rich young ruler to be his disciple and make him sell his possessions?

    What have I said that forces anymore to the will of my Father than Jesus flatly demanding, “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

    Where did he force Peter to get out of the boat?

    Where have I been anymore forcing to the will of my Father than Jesus stating, “You of little faith, why did you doubt?”

    Where did he force the Romans to give the people more than 5 loaves and 2 fish?

    Where have I forced any to the will of my Father than did Jesus when He commanded, “Have the people sit down. ” and “Gather the pieces that are left over. Let nothing be wasted. ”?

    Where did he force other households to provide wine in Cana?

    Where have I forced my will any more than Jesus told the servants , “Fill the jars with water” and “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet. ”?

    Where did he force perfume to be poured on his feet?

    Where did I force my will anymore than Jesus did to those present in Bethany when He ordered, “Leave her alone, why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful thing to me. The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me. She did what she could. She poured perfume on my body beforehand to prepare for my burial. Truly I tell you, wherever the gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her. ”

    or commanded Judas Iscariot, “Leave Mary alone, it was intended that she should save this perfume for the day of my burial. You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me.”

    When Herm?

    Then Josh!

    Perhaps you would be so kind as to consider and reply to:

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/conservative-christian-tell-me-again-about-how-youre-pro-family/#comment-3722526057

  • $144948586

    “What I am suggesting is that your idea that all functions of the gov’t as being demonic is silly”
    All human governments are demonic, as expressed by Satan’s temptation of Jesus, the words of Samuel about a king, and Jotham on Mount Gerizim.

    “He had more of a problem with the religious elite excluding the marginalized.”
    He also had a problem with the Romans; the casting of demons into swine was a clear symbol to the people of his day that the Roman Empire was demonic.

    “For the record, no, I’m not “advocating force through a system of taxes” nor am I “conflating that with Jesus or the early church”.”
    Yes you are, when you advocate a system which taxes. When you conflate Jesus’ teaching to feed the poor with forcing the rich to feed the poor. When you conflate the early church’s volunteer system to give to the poor with a socialist economy. Al of these things, built through government, are built on the pillars of guns and prisons for those who don’t…if you don’t believe me, just try to not pay taxes.

  • Ron McPherson

    Josh: “All human governments are demonic”

    The apostle Paul: “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God.” Romans 13:1

  • $144948586

    Herm, what do you think Jesus would do to these people said “No, Jesus I don’t want to do that.”

    I will be so kind shortly.

  • $144948586

    Herm, you’d force people to shut up BY FORCE if you didn’t like what they’d say. You said that specifically in past discussions.

  • $144948586

    “Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.”
    Ron, I’m not suggesting violent revolution. I’m suggesting non-participation–I’m suggesting NOT BEING CAESAR, not being a person who suppresses the wills of other in the name of Jesus.

    But of course, with your line of thinking I suppose Hitler shouldn’t have been stopped.

    And I do thank you, because it gives me some suggestion of exegesis.

  • Sean, even though Republican rhetoric says otherwise that Obama was soft on immigration, you’re right…Obama did deport a record number of illegal immigrants. The difference is the Obama administration was following existing immigration laws, Trump is trying to change them to make laws even more strict on immigrants instead of like you suggest in changing them to make them more ethical…

  • Ron McPherson

    Romans 13:6-7, “For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, busy with this very thing. Pay to all what is due them—taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.”

  • $144948586

    Again, I’m not advocating not paying our taxes.
    I’m saying Christians should not to be the ones to levy taxes.

    We can quibble on if taxes are owed to certain recipients. But you’re first going to have to stop misappropriating what I’m saying.

  • Ron McPherson

    “But you’re first going to have to stop misappropriating what I’m saying.”

    Um…I haven’t misappropriated anything you’ve said. All anybody has to do is just go back through the thread and read your comments. And who said anywhere that “Christians” are the ones levying taxes? Where the heck did that come from? This whole discussion has been your utter distaste about all things government. The government as an institution is the one levying taxes (that’s never been a point of contention) and you said the government (the institution doing it) is demonic. At least twice you said it. Even when I mentioned some (not all) good things that come from it, you didn’t back down one iota. Still clung to the notion that government is evil and demonic. This whole discussion has always been about the government, which is exactly what Paul is addressing in Romans. What galls me (just gotta be honest here) is you leveling that bit about Beelzebub and anti-Christ and hypocrite and all that, all while my belief merely aligns with what Paul wrote in Romans, and what Jesus stated about rendering unto Caesar, and about the fact that I don’t share your view that all government is about squashing people and taking their stuff. Suddenly after quoting Paul as to the fact that believers should pay their taxes, and respect the governing authorities, and that those authorities were instituted by God, you start moving the goalposts. Geez.

  • $144948586

    “And who said anywhere that “Christians” are the ones levying taxes?”
    When you vote for Obamacare, Public Schooling, Student Loan, or Military, you are voting for the levy of taxes.
    As a voter who determines the leader, you are the leader…you are the Caesar.

    “I don’t share your view that all government is about squashing people and taking their stuff.”
    I said demonic. And it’s clear all Kingdoms through all time have been given to Satan and he can “give them to whomever [he] wants.”

    “you start moving the goalposts”
    This isn’t true; you’re quoting verses about how Christians should react to authority. I’m telling you that being an authority involves use of force and suppression of wills…therefore Christians should not be supporting such actions–which you do when you vote for GOVERNMENT SOLUTIONS to the problems you see, because these involve the levy of taxes (BACK BY THE USE OF GUNS AND PRISONS).

    Me saying, “Don’t be Caesar”
    Is not the same as “Christians should not pay taxes.”
    That’s misappropriation 101.

    Governments are easily seen as demonic when you realize: welfare systems have been “helping” for over 50 years, and the welfare state has ONLY grown. The failure of these systems alone is proof that they are not of God. The money has been provided to them, people have gotten their benefits. Yet, it has not alleviated the portions of the populace it’s supposed to help–it’s merely increased the number of people needing alleviation.

    Your support of government solutions requires use of force to force participation. What’s worse, it’s not just forcing taxes–its forcing people to buy certain products, and forcing kids to be placed in sub-par schools with little incentive to do better.

    It is demonic; it is backed by violence; it is anti-Christ.

  • $144948586

    Here, we can try this approach a different way.
    Why don’t illegal immigrants just say no to Trump’s deportation policies?

  • Ron McPherson

    “When you vote for Obamacare….you are the Caesar”

    So the fact that 19 million people were granted healthcare from the Affordable Care Act, you believe that construct to actually be demonic and anti-Christ?

  • $144948586

    They weren’t just granted Health Care. Heck they weren’t even granted Healthcare. They were granted what some would call insurance, though it covers routine procedures.
    That being said, you’re not asking why so many people were without. Your not asking why healthcare is so high. Youre not questioning AMA (government), welfare robbing job creation (government), minimum wage rates (government), pharmaceutical prices due to patemt law (government). You’re not asking at what expense theyre getting their health insurance (understaffed doctors), poor reimbursements by the fed so doctors refuse Medicaid and Medicare programs (youre not even asking why these weren’t enough and why something else had to be added). You dont even question the 19 million number, which is bogus anyway. You dont question the effect on small businesses, ypu dont question the effect on rationing, you dont question the effect on families on the margin who can pay for one of these plans. You dont even think to ask “are the premiums ungodly?” And they are ridiculously high…it’d be cheaper for most people to just pay cash.

    I won’t have you act if I’m a curmudgeon. Or that I want people to die. It sounds like a good policy but even the devil conceals himself as an angel of Light. The fact is that such a policy as with all the policies were talking about they betray good economics. That means that they spend more then the investment returns. We can see this with any government institution take Roads Take pensions take welfare take Obamacare. And the fact that these things cannot pay for themselves mean eventually they have to get money from somewhere else, and this part is what is so demonic. I know that you have good intentions, but you can’t escape the fact that you are forcing people other people to pay for these things. That you’re forcing your government to go into debt meaning that your future Generations are going to be taxed to pay off that debt. So I know that your intentions are good, and it seems like I’m a bad person whenever I say hold on now there is no sound economic policy for this. But that just isn’t the case. If it were of God it could work indefinitely. But the only reason it works is because we have a economy that currently can grow and sustain it. But that economy did not occur under Obama and no it didn’t occur under Bush, as the welfare state has grown GDP growth has declined throughout all Western Nations. Eventually and the only reason we are okay right now is because we have low interest rates, but eventually those rates are going to go up. And the economy is not going to grow fast enough to pay for the unfunded liabilities. Which by the way are not 20 trillion. They are 120 to 200 trillion. These include Social Security which is underfunded another government institution, Medicare and Medicaid which are underfunded another government institution, pensions for municipalities firefighters and police which are underfunded. All these things are failures of government. So I know it sounds good. And that my friend is demonic.

  • Ron McPherson

    Ok

  • Herm

    You mistake me for the very capable moderator. What possible force can I apply to shut up anyone? If you check very closely, throughout the last three years, I have been very tolerant with all. Direct me to where I specifically threatened to shut people up by force, please!

  • Herm

    Josh, what do you think I would do to these people who said, “No, Herm, I don’t want to do that.” I don’t have the authority, judgment or vision to deny others eternal life; Jesus does, and yet you find me more intimidating than Jesus.?.?

  • $144948586

    When people would not pay their taxes, you would allow the government to come in with guns and either threaten them to pay their taxes or take them away in Chains to prison. This is the nature of our government, and does this is the nature of your participation in it for your things that you deem worthy of suppressing other people’s Wills for yours. That’s what you would do.

  • $144948586

    You have already admitted it. You would allow a collective group to forcefully remove somebody from speaking somewhere that a public space. You have admitted this and past times. If I have time I will go get it for you if you would like. I remember this particularly, because I called you a fascist.

  • $144948586

    This is what being willfully blind and willfully death look like. You’re still not even asking the questions even though they’re right there. They contain all the information you need when you seek out the answers. It is right there that government is actually the cause of the problems that need Solutions.

  • Ron McPherson

    “This is what being willfully blind and willfully death look like. You’re still not even asking the questions even though they’re right there.”

    No, this is what moving on from a conversation going nowhere looks like. Don’t flatter yourself. Just because I’m not giving you a platform to continue spouting hatred for all things govt doesn’t mean I’m “willfully blind.”

  • Herm

    Jesus commands that His disciples pay their taxes to Caesar (our government of the people, by the people, and for the people) and to God. I only bring note to the truth you ignore out of seeming conceit and self-absorption.

    Later they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Jesus to catch him in his words. They came to him and said, “Teacher, we know that you are a man of integrity. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are; but you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it right to pay the imperial tax to Caesar or not? Should we pay or shouldn’t we?”

    But Jesus knew their hypocrisy. “Why are you trying to trap me?” he asked. “Bring me a denarius and let me look at it.”

    They brought the coin, and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?”

    “Caesar’s,” they replied.

    Then Jesus said to them, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.”

    And they were amazed at him.

    Mark 12:13-17 (NIV2011)

    The earth is the LORD’s, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it; for he founded it on the seas and established it on the waters.

    Psalm 24:1-2 (NIV2011)

    … read, also, Matthew 25:14-30 and Luke 16:10-15 with the knowledge that the Lord your God is the master spoken of.

    One day when Job’s sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother’s house, a messenger came to Job and said, “The oxen were plowing and the donkeys were grazing nearby, and the Sabeans attacked and made off with them. They put the servants to the sword, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

    While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, “The fire of God fell from the heavens and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

    While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, “The Chaldeans formed three raiding parties and swept down on your camels and made off with them. They put the servants to the sword, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

    While he was still speaking, yet another messenger came and said, “Your sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother’s house, when suddenly a mighty wind swept in from the desert and struck the four corners of the house. It collapsed on them and they are dead, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

    At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship and said: “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised.

    In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.

    Job 1:13-22

    It is not I who collects taxes for it is by Caesar’s authority, and God’s, authority that what was graced me, by them, to responsibly steward that a portion be returned to them who made it possible.

    What have you earned?

  • $144948586

    Exactly; willfull blindness causes facts to be called spouted “hatred”.

    Its a fact that each of these things have become insolvent and the only solution is more debt (which inevitably means more taxes) whose payments are completely dependeny upon inflation and economic growth (the former caused by government and the latter hurt by government).

    But go be willfully ignorany continuing to vote for legislation that demands others act in accordance or face prison; mightily anti-Christ way of living right there.

  • $144948586

    No he doesn’t. You’re reading in to that story with the assumption you dont accept anyway. “Render what belongs…” And you’ve already conceded that nothing belongs to anyone.

    So you dont believe your own teaching. If you can’t see the contradiction, I’ll spell it out again with your quotes.

    Besides Jesus doesn’t command his disciples to make policies that require taxes.

  • Herm

    Read and heed, please!!!

    After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

    All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all that there were no needy persons among them.

    For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

    Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means “son of encouragement”), sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles’ feet.

    Acts 4:31-37 (NIV2011)

    Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.

    Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

    When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

    About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.

    Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?”

    “Yes,” she said, “that is the price.”

    Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”

    At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.

    Acts 5:1-11 (NIV2011)

  • $144948586

    But people then and people today do claim their possessions are there own. And for those people, it’s not ypur concern to redistribute.

    Regardless it doesnt change your contradiction that you can’t “render to Caesar what belongs to Caesar” because, as you argue: we (everyone) don’t own anything.

  • Herm

    Josh, in addendum, it is becoming clear that you see only what you wish to see and intentionally remain blind to what you don’t wish to accept.

    Caesar is a reference to the government, not any one person.

    Mankind is the surviving body we, as members, contribute to that our species might survive on earth. All carnal members will not survive this earth. The focus of God is on mankind, graced the spirit image of God, not on the male and female members.

    You apparently do not accept Psalm 24:1-2 as significant relative to who owns what:

    The earth is the LORD’s, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it; for he founded it on the seas and established it on the waters.

    Psalm 24:1-2 (NIV2011)

  • Herm

    Caesar is a reference to the government, not any one person. God is a plurality made up, at minimum, a Father, a mother, the Son of God and all His sibling sister and brother disciples.

    I am, also, a member of the government of the United States of America. I remain a responsible adult of Man, even as a Spirit born child of God. It is my concern for all of my carnal species and my family of God.

    I am no longer responding to you this evening. Take your time to go back over what was said on both our parts.

    While doing so, consider that people claiming their possessions are their own does not make it so. You probably have never heard of, or understand, imminent domain. What will remain, of what you say you is your own, a century from now, including your memory?

  • Ron McPherson

    Ok Josh, whatever you say

  • Skip S.

    Josh – Dude. Well said

  • Ken Wildman

    Obviously (as many) Mr.Corey WILLFULLY NEGLECTS the PRINCIPAL of the Imm. issue , & that being , of being LEGALLY or ILLEGALLY in the Country. The U.S. as ALL nations have LAWS Mr.Corey and have the SOVEREIGN right to decide who & how many can enter the country!
    Laws are to be applied and observed for the TOTAL well being of all it’s CITIZENS that have rights guaranteed by the CONSTITUTION! Non legal INHABITANTS of a country do not enjoy nor can they CLAIM the rights of Natural citizens.
    If laws are not ENFORCED and ADHERED to the result is ANARCHY & ULTIMATELY the downfall of the nation. The FEW deciding by action (often DESTRUCTIVE & ILLEGAL) rather than the process of DEMOCRACY, the course for all to live by.
    I am a Conservative & a Christian. I believe in having empathy and sympathy,consideration ,JUSTICE and RESPECT for ALL people. I also believe in behavior consistent with the LAWS of the LAND. Obviously God did also or He would not have INSTITUTED LAWS such as, but not limited to the MORAL laws referred to as the 10 Commandments.
    As many seeking to enter the U.S. are following the legal process so should ALL.
    I WHOLE HEARTILY agree that the kids,by no action of their own ,brought or born here by parents who came here illegally deserve special consideration. This is a very difficult problem indeed with NO easy answers

  • $144948586

    If you want to avoid that, then:
    When Satan tempts Jesus he says “all the nations have been given to me and I can give them to whoever i want.”
    Thus how can we give something if we dont own what we’re giving?

    Your contradiction still exists, Herm.

  • $144948586

    Thanks yo.

  • $144948586

    I recognize now the messups in my statement; apologies–that’s what Google microphone will do with a long prose.

  • $144948586

    Oh, and btw, Jesus understood the right to own property:
    The parable of the vineyard workers: “Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?”

    Your philosophy is contradictory, and oppressive. It’s time you drop it.

  • otrotierra

    Yep. Anything to avoid following The Greatest Commandment. Repeated behavior from SamHamilton.

  • Bones

    You mean like the landowner who tortures his servant for not investing his money.

    You don’t understand the parable.

  • Bones

    It’s classic whataboutism…..and that’s by someone who was critical of Obama.

    Btw it’s a conservative trait not just in the USA to attack immigrants.

    It’s happening all around the world.

    In fact conservatives here have won elections by dog whistling to the racism of the Right through scare tactics about refugees.

    That’s why over here we lock refugees and kids in third world countries.

  • Bones

    Nah….conservatives all around the world are railing against immigrants.

    It’s been an issue here for some time.

    So much so that being tough on immigrants is a virtue.

    Btw the FRC on gays

    “Family Research Council believes that homosexual conduct is harmful to the persons who engage in it and to society at large, and can never be affirmed.”

    http://www.frc.org/homosexuality

  • Bones

    Yet you like forcing immigrants out of the country……

    Hypocrite much?

  • Bones

    Unless if it applies to gay people or immigrants.

  • Bones

    You tell me, seeing your god predestined it…..and is sovereign.

    Obviously a god who doesn’t give a f***.

  • Bones

    You mean like those Christians who subverted Nazis.

    Yes I see a flaw in your ideology which worships all government.

    But hey you don’t have to worry about being deported so why should you give a f***,

  • Bones

    Now look at the last 100 years of world history……or all the genocides in the past 1000 years for the sake of empire building.

    Your micromanaging chess player god doesn’t exist.

  • Bones

    Fools said I you do not know.

  • Bones

    How conservatives have evolved…..

    Killing and torturing gay people – placing gay people in mental homes – criminalising gay people – shaming gay people – fighting against gay civil rights – fighting against gay adoption – fighting against gay marriage…..

  • Bones

    Lol…Jesus paid taxes derp….

    Do you think he wanted to?

    In fact what do you think a tithe is?

  • Bones

    The problem is of course this was written by a hypocrite who denies others their natural rights.

  • Bones

    Mass murder has been going on throughout history – even commanded in the Bible by god himself.

    It’s society itself which determines laws….not god.

    The society we have today is an evolution from the Enlightenment and libertarian thinking. Something which didn’t exist before hand in the worlds of royalty and strongmen and from tribal survival..

    It sure as hell wasn’t any divine inspiration.

  • Bones

    Well the hatred is what you show to other people because you want their rights taken away such as immigrants and gay people yet you rave and rant on about taxes.

  • Matthew

    Silence like a cancer grows …

  • Bones

    It’s so sad that people are only limited to the US and western culture.

    The individualistic culture you describe simply doesn’t exist in many other cultures where people don’t value individual possessions but see them as the ownership of the collective. Or simply not important at all.

    Heck our Aboriginal tribes hardly owned anything. The concept was foreign to them.

    It took westerners to teach them about ownership down the barrel of a gun.

    And its galling being told by a white heterosexual male who enjoys all the benefits and privileges of his class that civil rights don’t exist.

    They exist because we as a society have determined that they do.

  • Bones

    Btw who defines murder…..

    Answer…the government….

  • Bones

    I’m glad my demonic government saved my wife’s life.

    Btw when Josh was challenged over his support for anti-abortion and anti-gay legislation he changed his tune to not allowing gay sex and abortions in his house….

    Apparently that must happen a lot over in the USA where strangers wander into your house demanding gay sex or an abortion or both.

  • Bones

    Apparently Josh’s church is going to take over all government spending and welfare.

    If you want an ambulance, you have to ring Josh’s church.

  • Bones

    Huh, I thought your god hated gays…

    What’s he going to do to them?

  • Bones

    Conservative pie in the sky bs.

    Derp, welfare is a societal benefit for all……provided by all members of society regardless of creed.

    In fact welfare exists because of the failure and incapacity of Christianity.

  • Bones

    If you truly love your neighbour you wouldn’t support the government hounding them as illegals.

  • Bones

    And Obama was criticised by the true left for the neoliberal pawn he was.

  • Bones

    Except fascism is conservative…

    It is the domain of far right wing Catholics eg Franco.

  • Bones

    Lol…the only people who are conservatives are those who Josh said are.

    Fun fact…..conservatives support Authoritarian government dating back to the first use of the term ‘conservative’ to refer back to bringing in the line of kings.

  • Bones

    You are aware that Jesus was paying taxes to a military occupying force who crucified people on a whim (Pilate was a ruthless corrupt tyrant btw) and whose society left unwanted babies in the trash.

    Seems your jesus is a massive hypocrite.

    You ever noticed how the NT rarely criticises the Romans……(Mark and Revelation does it in subversive ways).

  • Bones

    Not if they’re brown…..

  • Ron McPherson

    Lol!!

  • Tim

    Not off the top of my head, no. That particular angle on that passage hasn’t come across my radar before. Just thinking out loud.

  • Matthew

    Now Bones … that´s NOT the next part of Neil´s lyric :-)

  • Matthew

    I hadn´t heard that angle either, Tim.

  • otrotierra

    Yep. SamHamilton will grasp at anything to avoid or obscure The Greatest Commandment. And he shows no signs of changing his self-serving, self-satisfying ways.

    He alone is responsible for his arrogant rejections, and he has no-one to blame but himself.

  • apoxbeonyou

    I started to respond to those but then saw the stuff at the end and couldn’t help myself. I also stopped caring. *moving along*

  • SamHamilton

    I hope you see the irony in your behavior. Good day.

  • SamHamilton

    Thanks.

  • SamHamilton

    Oh stop it. If you have an issue with something I’ve written, address it to me and let’s engage in a dialogue. But if you’re just going to make passive-aggressive comments to others about me, it shows a genuine lack of integrity on your part. I’ve asked you to stop many times and you haven’t. Shame on you.

  • Ron McPherson

    I pointed out to him that some functions of gov’t are good when they help better the lives of others, but he just said that the devil masquerades as an angel of light or something like that. Pretty sure if gov’t assistance helped him or his family in some capacity he’d change his tune. Theories look good on paper, until real life events happen. Funny how experiences can alter a person’s ideology.

  • SamHamilton

    While I don’t think I disagree with much of what you’ve written here (in general, we should enforce our immigration laws while making exceptions in some cases), I think people would be more open to your argument if you didn’t use all caps. In general, people associate ALL CAPS with shouting. I don’t know about others, but I also associate ALL CAPS with those weird email forwards that had loose association with the truth that I used to get back in the day from several relatives of mine.

  • apoxbeonyou

    Of course I do, hence offering my thoughts freely on a public board. This is entertainment for me. If it becomes too much work, or too stressful, then I back out. I am a programmer by trade, and that takes up more of my brain power than I have. I don’t have room for getting into long-winded discussions online, especially with those whom I don’t really know.

  • SamHamilton

    Well, her actions and words are on public display for all to see here. You’d think that would chasten her.

  • $144948586

    Nicely stated.

  • Greta Holt

    What a relief it has been to see the formation of a centrist, bipartisan group in the Senate. Returning that body to a deliberative, legislative organization may be a way through/beyond our present, dark mazes of shouted rhetoric.

  • Ken Wildman

    Thanks Sam for advice. Of course I am NOT ;) shouting but using caps for emphasis only !
    I think exceptions have to be used very sparingly. Should there be exceptions to other law violations , such as the killer in San Francisco who had been deported 5 times and had a serious history of crime here? Yes i know the kids are a totally separate case and as I said need to be looked at differently , but the fact remains that many illegals are committing crimes & some very violent. The parents that came into the country and brought their kids violated immigration laws and they & their kids have NO right to Social Service benefits that citizens have contributed to their entire working lives and are being told that SS will be bankrupt in the near future,just 1 example. Medical,education and others all paid for by tax payers but are being drained and putting burdens on all levels of government funding are more. The question still remains….are laws going to be enforced or not? Some decisions are very hard to make and enforce,but they must if a society is to be governed for the good of all and not only a few.

  • boisepoet

    “Papers please” said Christ…never.
    Forgetting the admonition to love your neighbor as you love yourself, is the reason conservatives cannot appeal to the moral high ground of Christianity on this issue.

  • boisepoet

    You do realize all the hulabaloo about the ‘illegal’ part usually just falls under a civil misdemeanor…right?
    Why aren’t you out yelling at the drivers of passing cars who are exceeding the speed limit?

  • Dean Daniels

    I’m usually yelling at the ones in front of me…

  • Sophotroph

    It’s simple. “Pro-life” and “pro-family” have always been lies. The first means “anti-abortion” and by extension means “anti- bodily autonomy”.

    The second means “anti-non-nuclear-family”.

    Both positions are about denying rights to others rather than how they’ve been dishonestly renamed; to imply that they are about protecting rights.

    They attack and pretend that you’re defending. It’s a convenient lie to give their actions false merit, and the fact that so many Christians are fine with those lies is utterly damning.

  • Bones

    Yes, unless that government is conservative and rounding up immigrants, and locking up gay people.

    He’s happy with that.

  • Ron McPherson

    Anarchy looks until you need the govt’s help

  • Ron McPherson

    All the people driving slower than me are idiots. Those driving faster than me are jerks

  • Ron McPherson

    Yeah, the US and European countries are poster children for the sanctity of life, regardless of their abortion laws, compared to some of the atrocities committed by the Roman Empire in the first century.

  • Bones

    I have but you run away.

    Probably a lack of integrity on your part.

    Shame on you.

  • Bones

    As are yours……..lol Eva embarrassed herself so much she had to delete her posts.

  • Bones

    I feel sorry for people who falsely malign others to promote their own cause.

  • Bones

    Actually OT was replying to my demolition of sam’s point….and I also pointed out Sam’s lies in an above post about the Family Research Council.

    Which seems to be par for the course from conservatives around here.

  • Bones

    Bad behaviour?

    Pot ….meet kettle…..

  • otrotierra

    Thank you for stating truth, no matter how politically offensive it is to Eva and SamHamilton. Please ignore their gnashing-of-teeth in response to basic, elementary truth–it’s become a reflex for them. Their comment histories speak for themselves.

  • Bones

    Humans evolved into societies for a reason. The cult of individualism and anarchy is a recent phenomena. What we know as modern anarchism is a product of the Enlightenment.

    The only example of anarchy I can think of is the French Revolution and the 92 riots.

  • otrotierra

    Yep. Eva and SamHamilton expect their Evangelical privilege will allow them to lie without being confronted. When called out for their deception, obfuscation, and attempts to derail, they lash out in anger. Their comment histories speak for themselves.

  • Bones

    It’s interesting that god rose up Imperial Japan, Stalinist Russia, Nazi Germany and Saddam Hussein. Gee thanks God.

    You are aware that the Roman Empire itself was a product of rebellion as was a certain country led by George Washington.

    This is what happens when people take a verse and try to strain a whole doctrine out of it.

  • Bones

    “But God requires that we follow the Laws ‘set by humans” regardless”

    You know after Nazi Germany, you’d think some Christians would learn.

    But no…..the more things change, the more things stay the same.

  • Bones

    Rubbish…nations are an evolution of human tribalism and ethnic communitities…

  • SamHamilton

    Everyone knows the term “pro-life” means anti-abortion, just as everyone knows “pro-choice” refers to support for abortion rights. These aren’t “lies;” they’re political slogans.

    People who refer to themselves as “pro-family” probably have a bias towards policies they feel will help support nuclear families (wether their chosen policies will work is a separate discussion). I’m not sure why you refer to this as a “lie” though. It sounds like an accurate description of their objective. I don’t know why enacting policies intended to strengthen the family would end up denying other people their rights. I looked through that FRC pamphlet I posed yesterday and hardy any of the things listed there involve “denying rights” to others (again, not defending any of it as effective policy).

  • SamHamilton

    “Papers please” said Christ…never.

    What is this meant to imply? If you’re opposed to all immigration law and think that people should be free to travel wherever and whenever they want across national borders, though I think it would result in chaos and actually harm more people than it helps, at least that’s a principled position. But if you don’t actually believe that, then you, too, believe in requiring people to present their “papers.” You, Ken and I might all disagree about how strictly to enforce these rules and what the rules should be, but we all support some sort of rules (again, unless you agree with the open borders principle above).

  • SamHamilton

    Why are you behaving like this? Are you not embarrassed that everyone can see you commenting?

  • Sophotroph

    I call them lies because they are lies.

    Nobody is “pro-family” because there is no threat to the institution of the family. Nobody is trying to prevent people from having “traditional” families. These people are offended that anybody is allowed to have a non-traditional family.

    These are terms that were chosen intentionally and cynically for the purpose of whitewashing what they’re about.

    That’s not what the right side of history looks like.

  • Sophotroph

    Thanks for saying so. Internet slap-fights need to happen, I think, but they’re usually a thankless job.

  • Ron McPherson

    I’m a white hetero Christian male happily married to the same woman for almost 30 years, with two grown sons. Not once has a marriage between same sex consenting adults threatened the “institution of my family” lol. I once asked a question to someone who was anti-gay: If you were head of an orphanage and a happily married, deeply committed same sex couple wanted to provide a loving home to an orphaned child, would you grant the couple the adoption, or would you purposely keep the child orphaned? Their answer, dead serious here, was to keep them an orphan because it would be better for them. I knew at that point my dialogue with them was hopeless.

  • SamHamilton

    I didn’t say there was anyone trying to prevent people from having traditional families. I said that there are people who are trying to craft pubic policy that they think will help support families. Stable families just don’t happen on their own. Public policy is not the main determiner of whether families succeed or fail, but there is an effect.

    For example, I like bike paths. If I was in a position of power in my town I would try to work to get more bike paths. I’m pro-bike paths. But that doesn’t mean that there is a threat to bike paths out there or there are people trying to intentionally prevent bike paths from being built. One thing doesn’t necessarily require the other. See what I mean?

  • SamHamilton

    Yeah, it’s kind of annoying. It’s not good enough to say someone is misguided or incorrect. That doesn’t amp things up enough.

  • SamHamilton

    My “Evangelical privilege.” That’s a first. I was baptized a Catholic and and am now Anglican. But, by all means, keep telling me about myself… Your foolishness is being exposed the more you comment.

  • Dean Daniels

    Bones: Do you have a Progressive “finish line” for humanity – or a particular eschatological consummation for the earth?

  • Bones

    Well the Sun will expand in the distant future so we better be outta here by then…..and who knows what’s happening with climate change.

    We sure as hell aren’t having a judgement of nations ala Matthew 25.

  • Bones

    Yes, you agree that you deleted your posts because they were an embarrassment.

    Then embarrassed yourself again with your attempt of character assassination of Margaret Sanger.

  • Bones

    “The parents that came into the country and brought their kids violated immigration laws and they & their kids have NO right to Social Service benefits that citizens have contributed to their entire working lives and are being told that SS will be bankrupt in the near future,just 1 example. ”

    How much do undocumented immigrants pay in taxes?

    “This group and their employers generated about $13 billion in payroll taxes in 2010. The administration then subtracted about $1 billion in benefits that could’ve been received in 2010 from earnings in years when workers were unauthorized. Workers and employers contribute roughly the same amount.”

    http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2016/oct/02/maria-teresa-kumar/how-much-do-undocumented-immigrants-pay-taxes/

    Seems undocumented immigrants pay more taxes than you and should have access to social security.

    You really are a callous bastard.

  • Bones

    Derp God DIDN’T institute LAWS. As for JUSTICE and RESPECT for all people, you make me laugh.

    Word of advice, if you STOP F***ING other countries up, then maybe people won’t want to leave the SHITHOLE you made of their country to ANNOY YOU as you sit comfortably watching Fox News..

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a63ff92167ff2a01706b456154fa4cc4702a70f07e595163608955a2da854645.jpg

  • Bones

    “I’m not sure why you refer to this as a “lie” though.”

    Because you, nor anyone else, gets to define what a family is.

    Pro-family is actually anti-gay, anti-divorce and anti-single parent.

    This nuclear family were obviously better than gays or a single Mum. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/89392642b03e94dd9513931fe5a4f703dc97704a716b39d84d7453b1c722ef4f.jpg

    Oh and the FRC on homosexuality….

    “Family Research Council believes that homosexual conduct is harmful to the persons who engage in it and to society at large, and can never be affirmed. It is by definition unnatural, and as such is associated with negative physical and psychological health effects.”
    – Family Research Council website, 2016

    “The reality is, homosexuals have entered the Scouts in the past for predatory purposes.”
    – FRC Vice President Rob Schwarzwalder, on radio’s “The Janet Mefferd Show,” Feb. 1, 2013.

    “[H]omosexual activists vehemently reject the evidence which suggests that homosexual men … are … relative to their numbers, more likely to engage in such actions [childhood sexual abuse] than are heterosexual men.”
    – Peter Sprigg, Senior Fellow for Policy Studies at FRC, on why the Boy Scouts should not allow LGBT Scouts or leaders, FRC blog, February 1, 2013.

    “The videos are titled ‘It Gets Better.’ They are aimed at persuading kids that although they’ll face struggles and perhaps bullying for ‘coming out’ as homosexual (or transgendered or some other perversion), life will get better. …It’s disgusting. And it’s part of a concerted effort to persuade kids that homosexuality is okay and actually to recruit them into that lifestyle.”
    — Tony Perkins, FRC fundraising letter, August 2011

    “Those who understand the homosexual community—the activists—they’re very aggressive, they’re—everything they accuse us of they are in triplicate. They’re intolerant, they’re hateful, vile, they’re spiteful. …. To me, that is the height of hatred, to be silent when we know there are individuals that are engaged in activity, behavior, and an agenda that will destroy them and our nation.”
    —Tony Perkins, Speaking to the Oak Initiative Summit, April 2011

    “We believe the evidence shows … that relative to the size of their population, homosexual men are more likely to engage in child sexual abuse than are heterosexual men.”
    — Peter Sprigg, “Debating Homosexuality: Understanding Two Views.” 2011.

    “While activists like to claim that pedophilia is a completely distinct orientation from homosexuality, evidence shows a disproportionate overlap between the two. … It is a homosexual problem.”
    — FRC President Tony Perkins, FRC website, 2010

    “[W]elcoming open homosexuality in the military would clearly damage the readiness and effectiveness of the force – in part because it would increase the already serious problem of homosexual assault in the military.”
    — Peter Sprigg, “Homosexual Assault in the Military,” 2010

    “A little-reported fact is that homosexual and lesbian relationships are far more violent than are traditional married households.”
    —Timothy Dailey, FRC publication, “Homosexual Parenting: Placing Children at Risk,” 2002

    “Gaining access to children has been a long-term goal of the homosexual movement.”
    — Robert Knight, FRC director of cultural studies, and Frank York, 1999

    “[Homosexuality] … embodies a deep-seated hatred against true religion.”
    — Steven Schwalm, FRC senior writer and analyst, in “Desecrating Corpus Christi,” 1999

    “One of the primary goals of the homosexual rights movement is to abolish all age of consent laws and to eventually recognize pedophiles as the ‘prophets’ of a new sexual order.”
    —1999 FRC publication, “Homosexual Behavior and Pedophilia,” Robert Knight and Frank York

  • Bones

    Rubbish, the biggest threat to your family is you.

    It’s not public policy which is abusing and neglecting kids.

    It’s shit parents, whether married or single, straight or gay.

    Heck do you even have children?

    Their happiness is not dependant on government policy but you.

  • Bones

    2018 Remix….

  • Bones
  • Bones

    So Josh is advocating a theocracy like Iran.

    That’s weird.

    Oh and the Israelites paid taxes….

  • Bones

    And who paid the judges?

    They did have government (eg each tribe had a leader) with a central leader over the 12 tribes and the laws (as supposedly contained in the old Testament) were determined by the priestly class.

    Oh and Israelites paid heaps of taxes……

  • Bones

    No…

    Lie…..to speak falsely or utter untruth knowingly, as with intent to deceive.

    Which is what is being spouted here

    eg the attempt to defend a homophobic organisation such as FRC.

    “Family Research Council believes that homosexual conduct is harmful to the persons who engage in it and to society at large, and can never be affirmed. It is by definition unnatural, and as such is associated with negative physical and psychological health effects.”
    – Family Research Council website, 2016

    “The reality is, homosexuals have entered the Scouts in the past for predatory purposes.”
    – FRC Vice President Rob Schwarzwalder, on radio’s “The Janet Mefferd Show,” Feb. 1, 2013.

    “[H]omosexual activists vehemently reject the evidence which suggests that homosexual men … are … relative to their numbers, more likely to engage in such actions [childhood sexual abuse] than are heterosexual men.”
    – Peter Sprigg, Senior Fellow for Policy Studies at FRC, on why the Boy Scouts should not allow LGBT Scouts or leaders, FRC blog, February 1, 2013.

    “The videos are titled ‘It Gets Better.’ They are aimed at persuading kids that although they’ll face struggles and perhaps bullying for ‘coming out’ as homosexual (or transgendered or some other perversion), life will get better. …It’s disgusting. And it’s part of a concerted effort to persuade kids that homosexuality is okay and actually to recruit them into that lifestyle.”
    — Tony Perkins, FRC fundraising letter, August 2011

    “Those who understand the homosexual community—the activists—they’re very aggressive, they’re—everything they accuse us of they are in triplicate. They’re intolerant, they’re hateful, vile, they’re spiteful. …. To me, that is the height of hatred, to be silent when we know there are individuals that are engaged in activity, behavior, and an agenda that will destroy them and our nation.”
    —Tony Perkins, Speaking to the Oak Initiative Summit, April 2011

    “We believe the evidence shows … that relative to the size of their population, homosexual men are more likely to engage in child sexual abuse than are heterosexual men.”
    — Peter Sprigg, “Debating Homosexuality: Understanding Two Views.” 2011.

    “While activists like to claim that pedophilia is a completely distinct orientation from homosexuality, evidence shows a disproportionate overlap between the two. … It is a homosexual problem.”
    — FRC President Tony Perkins, FRC website, 2010

    “[W]elcoming open homosexuality in the military would clearly damage the readiness and effectiveness of the force – in part because it would increase the already serious problem of homosexual assault in the military.”
    — Peter Sprigg, “Homosexual Assault in the Military,” 2010

    “A little-reported fact is that homosexual and lesbian relationships are far more violent than are traditional married households.”
    —Timothy Dailey, FRC publication, “Homosexual Parenting: Placing Children at Risk,” 2002

    “Gaining access to children has been a long-term goal of the homosexual movement.”
    — Robert Knight, FRC director of cultural studies, and Frank York, 1999

    “[Homosexuality] … embodies a deep-seated hatred against true religion.”
    — Steven Schwalm, FRC senior writer and analyst, in “Desecrating Corpus Christi,” 1999

    “One of the primary goals of the homosexual rights movement is to abolish all age of consent laws and to eventually recognize pedophiles as the ‘prophets’ of a new sexual order.”
    —1999 FRC publication, “Homosexual Behavior and Pedophilia,” Robert Knight and Frank York

  • Bones

    You are deliberately presenting falsehoods in order to defend homophobic and conservative organisations.

    Your lies have been exposed.

  • Bones

    We had a Christian couple here threaten to divorce if same sex marriage passed.

    Christian couple vow to divorce if same-sex marriage is legalised

    http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/christian-couple-vow-to-divorce-if-samesex-marriage-is-legalised-20150610-ghl3o6.html

    It did.

    They didn’t divorce.

    Of course we’ve seen lately those wonderful Christian parents who had chained up their kids leaving them living in filth.

    Just as well they weren’t gay though.

  • Dean Daniels

    A fair view – maybe when Betelgeuse or Eta Carinae go supernova folks will get alarmed enough. I have no particular response on Mt 25.

  • ronald ferguson

    Ken Wildman The problem with conservative christians is they demonize poor workers looking for a better life, while being completely silent about the wealthy and corporations that have government help exploiting these workers for dirt wages. You can’t go after those that fund your agenda.

  • ronald ferguson

    Sam Hamilton Your throwing so much crap out there it’s impossible to take you serious.

  • ronald ferguson

    Sam Hamilton You have lost it. Vile christian

  • ronald ferguson

    Sam Hamilton The question is are you embarrassed. Sadly I think your not.

  • Bones

    Well science tells us that’s nothing to be worried about…..

    Will the explosion of Betelgeuse destroy earthly life?

    When Betelgeuse does blow up, our planet Earth is too far away for this explosion to harm, much less destroy, life on Earth. Astrophysicists say we’d have to be within 50 light-years of a supernova for it to harm us. Betelgeuse is nearly 10 times this distance.

    So we’re safe from Betelgeuse. And, in fact, if there are any astronomers around when it does blow, they will be extremely thrilled to have a relatively nearby supernova to study.

    http://earthsky.org/brightest-stars/betelgeuse-will-explode-someday#destroy

    Fact or Fiction?: The Explosive Death of Eta Carinae Will Cause a Mass Extinction

    We almost certainly have nothing to fear from one of the largest and brightest stars in the sky

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-the-explosive-death-of-eta-carinae-will-cause-a-mass-extinction/

  • Bones

    Fun fact: Anglicans can be Evangelical.

    Your foolishness is being exposed the more you comment.

    BTW

    Some more on FRC

    Family Research Council Blatantly Lies About Supporting Uganda’s ‘Kill The Gays’ Bill

    https://thinkprogress.org/family-research-council-blatantly-lies-about-supporting-ugandas-kill-the-gays-bill-3d972020882d/

    Tony Perkins, the president of the anti-LGBT hate group Family Research Council, has made a career out of demonizing the LGBT community including repeatedly linking homosexuality and pedophilia, despite overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary.

    Now, in the span of three weeks, two prominent Republican candidates either endorsed by or affiliated with Perkins and the FRC—Roy Moore, a twice-removed Alabama Supreme Court Judge, and Wesley Goodman, a conservative Ohio state legislator who made a name championing pro-family and anti-LGBT causes—have been hit with serious allegations of predatory sexual behavior aimed at young men and girls.

    https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2017/11/20/pair-tony-perkins-associated-politicians-accused-serious-sexual-misconduct

  • Bones

    “You can skim it if you like, but I’ll let you know that most of the 25 items have nothing to do with gay people.”

    Really?

    I would say this has a lot to do with gay people and even advocates punishing states which don’t follow their conservative anti-gay agenda.

    15 Protect Marriage as the Union of One Man and One Woman

    In addition to deliberately creating and affirming motherless or fatherless families, other
    harms would result from same-sex “marriage.” Homosexuals are less likely to enter longterm
    partnerships, less likely to be sexually faithful, and less likely to remain committed for a
    lifetime.5
    Commitment, sexual fidelity, and lifelong marriage would all decline if the behavior
    of homosexuals is incorporated into society’s concept of marriage. Demands for legalization
    of polygamy would grow. Religious liberty and freedom of speech would also suffer, since
    opposition to same-sex “marriage” would be treated as the equivalent of racial bigotry.
    Some argue that same-sex couples should at least enjoy legal and financial “benefits.”
    However, society gives “benefits” to marriage only because marriage between a man and a
    woman gives benefits to society. Homosexual relationships do not benefit society—in fact, they
    impose significant burdens on it.
    This debate is taking place only because small bands of homosexual activists have
    gone to court in an attempt to gain from judges what they have been unable to win through the
    democratic process.

    Proposals
    • The definition of marriage as the union of one man and one woman should be enshrined
    in state constitutions. Ideally, such amendments should reserve the benefits granted to
    marriage for married couples only.
    • Congress should oppose, and the president should veto, any effort to dilute, weaken, or
    repeal the federal Defense of Marriage Act.
    • Congress should pass, and the states should ratify, an amendment to the U.S. Constitution
    to define marriage as the union of one man and one woman nationwide.
    • Until such a Marriage Protection Amendment to the U.S. Constitution is adopted,
    Congress should consider measures which would withhold certain related federal funding
    from any state that fails to define marriage as the union of a man and a woman. For
    example, federal “family planning” funds could be withheld from any state that fails to
    recognize authentic marriage as the foundation of the healthy “family.”

  • Bones

    And also from the pro-family FRC

    Proposal

    Currently, an infant born on U.S. territory automatically becomes a citizen of the United
    States, regardless of the status of his parents. Congress should act to correct or reform
    the unchallenged application of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution that has created
    this “anchor baby” policy.

  • $144948586

    Those who chose to remain Jewish.

  • Ron McPherson

    What blows my mind is that this ‘pro-family’ group says nary a word about legislating the prohibition of divorce (nor should they) which actually breaks apart families, but opposes SSM which actually forms one. It’s stuff like that which makes objective minded people want to puke over such hypocrisy.

  • Bones

    The poster who posted it claiming to have nothing to do with gay people is deceitful and lying.

    They have deliberately posted false information in order to deceive.

    In fact the article referred to in the the initial post on the FRC which supposedly didn’t mention anything about gay people.

    This is from that article….

    15 Protect Marriage as the Union of One Man and One Woman

    “In addition to deliberately creating and affirming motherless or fatherless families, other
    harms would result from same-sex “marriage.” Homosexuals are less likely to enter longterm
    partnerships, less likely to be sexually faithful, and less likely to remain committed for a
    lifetime.5
    Commitment, sexual fidelity, and lifelong marriage would all decline if the behavior
    of homosexuals is incorporated into society’s concept of marriage. Demands for legalization
    of polygamy would grow. Religious liberty and freedom of speech would also suffer, since
    opposition to same-sex “marriage” would be treated as the equivalent of racial bigotry.
    Some argue that same-sex couples should at least enjoy legal and financial “benefits.”
    However, society gives “benefits” to marriage only because marriage between a man and a
    woman gives benefits to society. Homosexual relationships do not benefit society—in fact, they
    impose significant burdens on it.
    This debate is taking place only because small bands of homosexual activists have
    gone to court in an attempt to gain from judges what they have been unable to win through the
    democratic process.”

    http://downloads.frc.org/EF/EF11D02.pdf

    Your friend’s been exposed as a liar.

  • Bones

    The pro-family group wants the 14th Amendment changed so that babies born in the USA to immigrants can’t be US citizens.

    There’s your mean hypocritical conservative logic.

  • Bones

    They might be now that the article they referred to has exposed them as a liar.

  • Ron McPherson

    Amazing

  • otrotierra

    Thank you Bones for bravely exposing SamHamilton’s lies.

    Bearing false witness must be acceptable in SamHamilton’s home and church, as he assumes he can get away with deliberate deception on Disqus without being called on it. Please ignore his steady stream of condemnation; it’s his only reaction when caught lying, deceiving, and obscuring the truth by any means available to him. Let’s observe:

  • Dean Daniels

    Yes, there isn’t a star close enough to hurt us with a SN event – just postulating for your premise that we need to leave our system. A supernova event that we could witness with our naked eye, even in daylight, might jump-start serious demands for plans to leave for another solar system.

  • “Fancy dog whistle”? Now you are co opting a racist slur and mixing it with pro-life. You must be very mad to mix baby killing with same sex sex. They are not in the same universe. Trump is new to the equation and so equally irrelevant to you posit. I thought according to Pelosi Trump was killing us by his Tax reduction act? You are also confusing enforcing immigration laws on the books and past presidents; ” President Barack Obama has often been referred to by immigration groups as the “Deporter in Chief.” Between 2009 and 2015 his administration has removed more than 2.5 million people through immigration orders.” Trump will solve DACA without the interference of the Left. Finally if you believe what you say, “I still believe that as Christians, we are called to be “pro-family,” then start really preaching against abortion. In the time it took me to comment on your confusion about pro-lifers 2000 babies were killed.

  • It makes perfect sense as you explain it. But it still isn’t “pro-life.” It’s pro-women’s-death.

    If my mother had not been able to have a pregnancy which would have killed her terminated before she became pregnant with me, I would not be here. If you are “pro-life,” you are telling me “I wish your mother had died and you had never been born.” I kind of take that personally.

  • ashpenaz

    As a theological point, I believe God creates people from eternity, long before they are born in this world. You were already in existence before your mother became pregnant, and had she terminated her pregnancy, God would have found another way to bring you into His creation. You can’t destroy a person God created just by stopping a pregnancy–pro-life people should have more faith.

  • Bones

    None of that is a pressing issue at the moment (you’re looking at millions of years into the future), unlike say climate change.

  • Bones

    Sam obviously didn’t read the article she posted which she said didn’t mention anything about gay people.

    A reading of the article makes it clear it was a lie.

  • Bones

    Hey Sam, your article specifically condemns gay people and wants to change the 14th AMendment so ‘anchor babies’ aren’t US citizens.

    Yeah that was a great example of conservative policies.

    Well done.

    You did better at exposing conservatives and supporting Ben’s article than I could.

  • otrotierra

    This is a repeated pattern of SamHamilton’s that is well documented thanks to Disqus. SamHamilton refuses to educate himself on even the most elementary current events & historical facts, and then imagines his willful ignorance to be sufficient for arguing against people like Dr. Corey and other educated, informed minds.

    SamHamilton hides behind the low standards of white Evangelical privilege. Ken Ham and Franklin Graham and Trump can lie and slander for self-serving purposes and get away with it, and thus people like SamHamilton simply assume they can to. Intellectual and spiritual sloth, on full display. Please ignore is incoming temper tantrum:

  • Bones

    Well you just confirmed Corey’s article.

    ” I am not anti-gay, but recognize that the fact that it both offends God deeply and is not in accordance with natural law either, therefore, I oppose the active gay lifestyle while simultaneously truly loving the homosexual person.”

    No, you’re anti-gay and another conservative who worships Trump.

  • Bones

    Trump has a looooong history of racism dating back to when his apartments wouldn’t rent to blacks and of course supported the abhorrent Moore in Alabama.

    Unfortunately for clowns like yourself, Trump has shown he has no clue as to what he is doing.

    Fun fact: Abortions increase under conservative pro-family governments eg Bush.

  • SamHamilton

    Wow, that escalated quickly. Nice to meet you too Ronald.

  • SamHamilton

    I’m interested in what lies you think I’ve told. You continue to make passive-aggressive allegations about me to other people but don’t offer any examples. That speaks to your integrity.

  • SamHamilton

    You have yet to respond to anything I’ve actually written. If you think I’m wrong about certain things, I’d be happy to discuss that with you. But you just claim I’m lying or that I’m uneducated or making slanderous accusation without directly referring to anything I’ve said or done that might prove your points. And then you accuse me of spiritual sloth. That is really shameful of you. Again, if you’d like to address anything I’ve said directly, I’d be happy to discuss it with you.

  • SamHamilton

    Ronald, what should I be embarrassed about?

  • Sooo, I guess you are a conservative evangelical that DIDN’T vote for Trump, are pro-life AND opposed to the death penalty, support the right of Gays to marry and feel Mr. Garcia’s treatment was unAmerican and unChristlike. If that’s the case I can understand why you’d be incensed being lumped together with pro-death penalty, anti-gay, Trump-supporting, wall building and xenophobic conservative Christians. I’d be angry too.

  • “(Clintons) have multiple murders associated with them.”
    She left off the child sex ring in the Pizza Hut that Crooked Hillary was running. Definitely the worst thing she has done (other than her pants-suits). She may not have her own PC but she hasn’t missed Fox News, that’s for sure!

  • SamHamilton

    You’ve got me pegged mostly right Kirk. As I said above (and in other blog comments at this website), I wish Mr. Corey would rely less on broad labels and criticize the positions and ideas of the people with whom he disagrees.

  • Sam, I think from previous posts, that Ben’s main beef with evangelicalism (as is mine) is more focused on Southern Baptists, who seem to be the main driving force theologically and politically among the Religious Right. You are right, Ben does paint with a broad brush and perhaps an occasional foray into the post-conservative and emerging church branches of evangelicalism would be helpful. Say, Scott McKnight, Clark Pinnock or Roger Olsen.

    However, the 800 lb gorilla in the room, S.Baptists, tend to see them as somewhat outside the fold. However, this side of evangelicalism is worth watching, as they may be the movers that pick up the pieces and forge a new, more healthy evangelicalism when it all falls apart. Then again, they may just give up and become progressives!

  • PedasiPaul

    Another example of faux family values is giving the President a “Mulligan” for adultery with a porn star and paying her $130,000 just before the election. Imagine what the hue and cry would’ve been from the Christian Right during the 90s if Bill Clinton had an affair with a porn star and paid hush money. “Character counts!” insisted Ralph Reed during Clinton’s impeachment. Not any more — at least not for Republicans.

  • PedasiPaul

    Leviticus 19:33
    “When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. THE ALIEN LIVING AMONG YOU MUST BE TREATED AS ONE OF YOUR NATIVE-BORN. LOVE HIM AS YOURSELF, FOR YOU WERE ALIENS IN EGYPT. I am the Lord your God.” (EMPHASIS added.)

  • Pennybird

    I guess it’s about time we stop allowing Christians to define themselves. They just muddy the waters of Webster’s.

  • Pennybird

    What is it with conservative Christians and caps lock?

  • Ken Wildman

    Something else to blame conservatives for? Really Penny!?! I used them for emphases only , but not any more since so many people consider it shouting.

  • Guthrum

    Listen to Bill Clinton’s 1996 State of the Union address and what he says about the illegal immigration.

  • Jay Has

    Behavior consistent with the LAW OF THE LAND is that abortions are legal. Are you for that?

  • Mr. James Parson

    It comes from the good old days when they were loud and you had no choice but to listen.

  • SeeingClearly

    I reduce the Trump approach to life in America to this: If you are white, a bigot, and anti-anything remotely connected with President Obama (Jeez, remember how good life was when we had a thoughtful, decent, competent Prez?), you DESERVE to be here. Everybody else…head for the border and don’t look back. Evangelical Xtians who voted for Drumpf: what the h*** were you thinking??? Is your hypocrisy that monstrous? Apparently, it is.

  • sg

    Plenty of people were deported when Obama was president. Why is it worse to get the exact same treatment when someone else is president?

  • Barb

    Character only counts against those you oppose; when it’s those you support, you are supposed to show forgiveness. Didn’t you get the memo?

  • Barb

    And if you wanted to reduce abortions immediately you’d support taxes to pay to help pregnant women carry to term. But cutting taxes and the size of government is more important to you than that.

  • Barb

    There is not one word in the US Constitution that allows the Federal Government to limit immigration, and no law limiting immigration was passed during the lives of the Founding Fathers, unlike, say, the Estate Taxes, the first of which was signed into law by George Washington. The first law limiting immigration was the Chinese Exclusion Act, signed into law by Chester A. Arthur in 1882. That was considered OK then, because they still considered the US a common law country, and hadn’t yet invented the false idea of ‘constitutional conservatism’ for the purpose of promoting plutocracy. Also, in the 1880s, there were still older people around who knew people who lived in the early days of the Republic, and pro-plutocrats were unable to pretend that the Founding Fathers were plutocrats. Instead, the plutocrats openly laughed at the ideals of equality put forward by the founders, instead of spinning lies about them.

  • Ok.
    But money is not the issue.
    Broken families and lack of respect for God top the list.

  • ollie

    Lol dating yourself! The old typewriter days, are gone! Thankfully! No more retyping a full page because of booboo!

  • ollie

    I still associate all caps with typewriters, for emphasis. Today in these rooms I know of know way to change the text?

  • ollie

    Really want to dry up illegal workers? Make the companies hiring them to pay for there crime.

  • SamHamilton

    You can always italicize. This webpage will show you how to do it. Scroll down to HTML formatting elements. Simply put and around the word or words you want to emphasize. Don’t use the spaces.

    https://www.w3schools.com/html/html_formatting.asp

  • ollie

    Thank You

  • ollie

    Really Thank You!!!

  • Barb

    Then why did you comment that ‘In the time it took me to comment on your confusion about pro-lifers 2000 babies were killed.’ So, abortion is the issue when it suits you but not when it doesn’t?

  • Barb, the Satan comment doesn’t show here ? But that would be Herm not me.
    Liberals want to solve problems with government money. What then after the baby is delivered? Who supports the child for life? Democrats?
    Abortion is a big problem. Much bigger than gun violence, abuse or anything else you can think of. It is the single reason we are in such trouble as a nation.

  • Barb

    OK. A woman is raped. She must carry to term, because if she doesn’t, that’s murder, right? But the REAL issue is that we can’t tax people for that baby; abortion is a big problem because it enables the right wing to push an agenda which is anti-woman, anti-child and pro-plutocrat and pretend to be moral. If you really think abortion is murder, you should be willing to pay taxes to reduce it. But you clearly don’t; you see it as a means to your real end, which is the destruction of democracy AND the replacement of the US government with a plutocratic system designed to protect the rich and crush the poor. Abortion is a way to trick the religious into supporting your agenda.

    In the Old Testament, if a man kills another human on purpose he is stoned to death. By mistake, he must flee to a city of refuge for 50 years. But if he beats a cow and it dies, he pays money damages. If he beats a woman and she aborts, he pays money damages. But since abortion is murder, you can justify ignoring every other issue and support the plutocratic overthrow of the government.

  • Barb

    .xx

  • Barb

    A ha. “Money is not the issue… what then after the baby is delivered? Who supports the child for life…” Apparently, money is the issue. If you are going to lie, at least make an effort at it. And by the way, helping is NOT ‘supporting the child for life…” false framing of the issue, fits with the rest of your lies.

  • Bones

    Yes Obama was far from perfect…

  • Most people make exceptions for rape and incest. To reduce abortion requires a change of attitude. It is not ok and it is not a woman’s right issue. The OT gives you no cover as the verses cover premature birth not abortion.

  • You are putting the cart after the horse so to speak. Notice how angry you are even discussing a position you don’t agree with? Another Liberal hallmark.

  • Bones

    Speaking of solving problems with government money, how’s that wall going?

  • Bones

    Yeah you raged against Obama for 8 years.

    Did you ever find his birth certificate?

  • Ken Wildman

    My reply concerning abortion in another post & reply Jay. Where is the right to abortion in the document that gave birth to our democracy, which is so highly defended as a woman’s “right” and guaranteed under Row vs.Wade. I must have missed Row vs.Wade in the Bill of Rights!
    YES the right to choose; abstinence,”the pill”,condoms,etc., not life and death. How can proponents claim to be human rights stalwarts in light of the scourge on this supposidity civilized country of brutal and savage murders of the unborn, the most helpless and defenseless of our citizens. Why is the”Higher Ground” not be being scaled for these , with shouts of “Human Rights” echoing down the canyons, and not to dignified burials but to “waste receptacles”/ trash cans. Or if it could possibility be any worse, parts be bartered for on the marketplace of human flesh / body parts! Is there any greater hypocrisy? Please spare the argument of only a “glob of mass,” in light of all the evidence to the contrary to this lie, to describe a fetus,a human being. Ultrasound pics etc.etc.etc. to numerous to recite here. It is only the abortion killing mills that continue to propagate these horrific murders & lies, convincing mostly poor,minority women, for the $540 + or – million spent by the government yearly. Why is it an expectant mother can (and are) be charged for harming and actions that kill an unborn, if it is not a human being? More hypocrisy ! The right to choose? No where else in our society is a solemn individual allowed to choose if someone lives or dies.Yes I know the death penalty comes to mind,but a panel of peers and a judge make the decision and it is law. Not a single person being co horsed and lied to by people with a very real ulterior motive $. How many potential Billy Grahams,Martin Luther Kings,Aaron Coplands,Norman Rockwells,Alexander Graham Bells,Eli Whitneys,Ronald Regans,FDRs,have been lost to humanity? Aren’t you glad your mother chose life for you?!?

  • Barb

    Caught in a lie, so he projects his own anger and changes the subject. Typical. All I did was quote you contradicting your own words on the same page. You are the one who is so angry you can’t think straight even for 30 seconds.

  • Barb

    So, if a person beats a woman up, and she loses that pregnancy and as a result, that child dies, that isn’t murder according to you? You apparently want to protect abusive men pretty badly, that you would create a special exception and pretend there is a distinction without a difference. It is exactly the same thing. The only difference is you don’t want a man to be guilty if he beats his wife or girlfriend. You are worse than the average liar.

    If a man causes the abortion through wife beating somehow that’s OK. Wow. That’s not the same thing. Wow. You are one brutal liar.

  • Not angry just sad that you are trying to justify abortion because the government may not support an unwanted child for life. They are two completely different subjects aren’t they?

  • Trying to use the OT to justify abortion is pretty lame. If the OT did that there would never have been laws against abortion in the first place. Protecting men is not the argument rather protecting the unborn.

  • Ken Wildman

    Believe me when I say I am sorry you feel this way(That you are disappointed she gave birth to you)! I could not be more sincere Obviously I do not know your situation because I do not even know you. But ( not a CAP) :) I do know that no matter how you might feel or think about yourself, God loves you and He designed you a special, one of a kind person that He treasures very highly! In His eyes you are His master piece on His canvas of life .Perhaps you don’t feel that way or even believe it , but what we believe or don’t believe never changes the truth, and God is truth and is not even capable of saying anything that is not 100% true.
    In the Bible you can read Him saying this to you. And He gave us proof because He knows people very well,since He created them. Jesus left Heaven & came to earth for the purpose of dying so that all people could have a very real personal , son & daughter relationship with God. Jesus said ” Satan is here only to steal and kill and destroy. I have come so you may have life. I want you to have it in the fullest possible way”. John 10:10 He completely understands us and He wants to help us in our lives to have good ones. To share life with us rather in good or bad times,He does not run out on us,ever! All He says to us is,I have the greatest gift ever, to give to you and all you have to do is accept it,believe,trust and follow me. What a deal! He takes the mess and replaces it with blessings!
    He also promised to His kids, just to mention a few promises, ” I will never leave you. I will never desert you”
    “Do not be afraid. Do not lose hope. I am the Lord your God (if a believer in Jesus as the son of God & personal Savour). I will be with you everywhere you go.”Joshua 1:9 NIRV
    I am here if you want to know more.

  • Jay Has

    I deal with evidence of reality; not some hogwash writings of ancient Greeks telling fables and fairy-tales they got from illiterate peasant Jews…

  • Barb

    False framing of the issue, your standard go-to. “Support for life” is not the question, it’s that you don’t want to help at all. Lies about the issue, lies about the bible, Next lie: Jesus was a libertarian like you, right? … except when it came to abortion, of course. Because your rights to your money is the MOST sacred thing in the world.

  • Barb you are fighting for a non-existent issue. We are fighting for for the life of unborn babies. You are quibbling about who supports an unborn child. Support comes after life.
    I am not a libertarian but a God fearing biblical Christian and conservative.

  • LadyWoman

    Because THE LAW. THE LAW above all things. If I recall, that’s what Jesus encouraged us to be primarily concerned with.

  • ashpenaz

    Apparently, Trump is the religious right’s brand for what a family is supposed to look like–thrice-divorced, adulterous, cold to his children (where’s Barron?). I wouldn’t say it’s far-fetched to assume that Trump has paid for a woman’s abortion–I wish someone would ask him. But that’s the person evangelicals think best represents their family values, so I take them at their word.

  • Is this where Church and State meet?

  • PedasiPaul

    Obama deported more immigrants than any other president. It’s not clear that Trump will break Obama’s record.

  • Eva

    Abortion is a huge problem in America.
    And here is the liberal mentality:
    “We don’t want you to be poor, hungry or unwanted – so we’ll just kill you instead”.
    Go figure…
    Or
    Legalizing abortions reduces abortions – and liberals place so much confidence in this strategy that they’ve pushed to legalize murder of the born too, oh wait…

  • Thanks for the support. i was beginning to think there were no pro-life people on this site

  • Eva

    There are others, but not present at this time unfortunately.

  • Good_Samaritan

    Because its not the exact same treatment?

  • Nimblewill

    So do you believe that murderers and rapist should go to prison even if it means splitting families?

    For me being pro-family means I accept my gay family members but it also means that my actions have consequences for my family. I’m for dreamers becoming citizens but when dreamers become criminals there will be consequences for their families.

  • Brandon Roberts

    i’m torn on the immigration thing myself

  • Ivan T. Errible

    There is no god.

  • disqus_N7jmVnTskk

    kenwildman yes but

  • Judgeforyourself37

    NO, one can have morals without going to church. I rarely attend church, I had enough church for way too many years, but I am faithful to my husband, I do not drink to excess, I raised my children to be independent adults who work for a living, I worked for a living, I am kind, compassionate, and as generous as I can be sensibly. I certainly do not think that people seeking asylum should be treated as if they were criminals. Yes, if an asylum seeker commits a crime, arrest him or her. However, statistics prove that there is much less crime among the asylum seekers than you will find among our citizens who have been born here in the US.
    Going to Church means a person is decent, kind, compassionate and generous as much as standing in your garage means that you are a car.

  • Judgeforyourself37

    Where do you find a perfect person? If someone tells you that they are “perfect,” that person is a liar.

  • Judgeforyourself37

    Where have you been hiding, in a closet? All that was debunked. Wake up, read paper and please turn off FAUX Noise Channel.

  • Ocelot Aardvark

    So you’re justifying caging little children, some still toddlers, by labeling them as “criminals”?

    We remember who else labeled a whole ethnic group of human beings as “criminals and rapists” in his very first campaign speech, back in 2015, when the Beast rode his golden escalator down to the lobby of his satanic tower.

  • Ocelot Aardvark

    A Thousand Amens!

  • Ocelot Aardvark

    However, without repentance, there is no forgiveness. – Luke 17:4

  • It was meant as satire! Gotcha! Lol.

  • So, why the dog whistle? Well, actually the pro-life movement among evangelicals began when segregationist pastor Jerry Falwell created the Moral Majority movement in ‘79. He needed to galvanize conservative evangelicals behind his fundamentalist racist agenda, and stop the Carter administration from interfering with segregationist Christian schools like Bob Jones University and his own academy. Overtly racist attacks no longer had the traction they had in the 50s, so he needed wedge issues that seemed more righteous than simply “I don’t wont my white children going to schools with black children.” Prior to the Moral Majority movement, most white evangelicals were pro-choice. His ruse worked, and within a decade a century of pro-choice among evangelicals was reversed and anti-abortion became the new norm. And, although segregation as a state’s rights issue was ultimately a failed cause, anti-abortion continued on as a rally cry for white privilege.
    This, of course, does not address the intrinsic moral issues surrounding abortion, but rather the religious right’s overtly white, male response to a nuanced issue that affects women of color more than any other group. The disagreement is not over the need to reduce abortions, but how to go about realizing that without harming women, the poor and people of color.

  • The spam filters are hard at work again. Tried to post, was flagged. Tried to break post into two parts, was flagged again. You will probably only see half the original post, but its enough. It is a well known fact among everyone except evangelicals that the pro-life movement among evangelicals was started by the Moral Majority moment of segregationist Jerry Falwell in ‘79. Prior to that evangelicals were mostly pro-choice. There were racist overtones to the decision to join the Catholics in the push to overturn Roe v Wade.

  • What difference does it make when the “pro-life” movement “began” or who” started it”? Abortion is wrong period.
    Abortion is racist because Planned Parenthood was started to destroy the Black Race by abortion. This is a well known fact -see Margaret Sanger. What you said seems to imply that pro-life is racist, white and privileged. Is this how you rationalize baby killing?

  • Bob, I think you are missing my point. The evangelical pro-life movement has mixed motives that should be examined, especially when making new laws that affect a woman’s body. That is why science, doctors and those other than fundamentalist politicians should be listened to when addressing the legality of abortion. I’m sorry, but your comment on Planned Parenthood is so reductionist I don’t know how to respond. Anyway, 100s of thousands of abortions points to the fact that something is wrong in America, regardless of whether one views abortion as “wrong period!” And I would agree that something should be done. Forcing poor women of color to carry another baby, for example, when they can’t afford daycare is not the answer. To reduce the need for abortions, a well rounded approach, like universal daycare, a living wage, inexpensive medical, etc., are all part of the solution. But, here’s the rub: most white evangelicals oppose those things! Why? It’s easier just to condemn women who have abortions, create laws to oppress them, than to have meaningful laws passed that will reduce the need for abortions.

  • But evangelicals do not make laws. Doctors, scientists and other don’t make laws. Of course abortion affects a women’s body and that translates into birth control.
    The Margaret Sanger story is well known but not often cited because it doesn’t fit the narrative. However there would be 60 million black Americans not 30 million without Planned Parenthood. I’d say their despicable mission was successful. To think they are anything but genocidal is wildly inaccurate. The solution is responsible personal behavior not pitiful victimization.

  • So, again Bob, missing the whole point of this article. In Margret Sanger’s time not only was abortion illegal, but contraception in general. Women were “baby-mills,” with little to no control over their bodies and forced to have child after child, irregardless of the health risks and financial burdens it would cause. Back ally abortions were common. So were deaths accompanied with that. If you look at the recent laws passed in Alabama and Missouri the strong white evangelical support has favored total bans on abortion…a return to Margret Sanger’s era. Also note, the states that favor a ban in almost all circumstances are Southern States: the states that have been most resistant to racial equality…and the states to jump on Falwell’s Moral Majority agenda quite early on. Totally banning all abortions is clearly a fundamentalist agenda. Fundamentalist favor a punitive solution to abortion, favoring the moral codes of the OT over the grace of the NT. “The solution is responsible personal behavior”…again, typical of the fundamentalist attempts to see every issue as a “sin-management” issue, and therefore actions as sinful and in need of punishment. One of the reasons evangelicalism’s absorption into the Religious Right in the ‘80s has become so dangerous for our democracy: a narrow view of scripture coupled with a thirst for political power threatens liberty for all.

  • My reply was blocked.