God Can’t Be In The Presence of Sin? (And Other Crap About God We Mindlessly Repeat)

God Can’t Be In The Presence of Sin? (And Other Crap About God We Mindlessly Repeat) April 5, 2017

presence of sin

Growing up evangelical, you’ve probably heard this answer to the question, “Why did Jesus have to die on the cross?”

“Well, Johnny or Susie, it’s because God can’t be in the presence of sin.”

They will often go on to explain how sin is so intolerable to God, that he can’t be anywhere near it. To be able to pull close to God, somehow we must be completely free and cleansed of sin first. It’s also why we’re often told that we can’t go to heaven if our sins have not been forgiven: because– here it is again– God can’t be in the presence of sin. One website describes it this way, which is quite similar to the answer I received growing up:

“[T]he God of the Bible requires cleansing for the purpose of relationship, because He wants to be with us. Much like a parent welcoming home a child after a summer’s day at the park—a child who is probably hot, sweaty and dirty—God wants us to be clean because He wants to enjoy our company. Our impurity is not something God permits in His presence. And so, He says to us much the same thing a parent would say to that child—go wash up before you come to the table to eat because I want a person who is clean at my table.”

(Side note: I don’t need my kids to shower before I’m willing to be close to them, so this is messed up on multiple levels.)

This notion that God cannot be in the presence of sin is a classic case of what I have come to call “generational theology.” Generational theology encompasses a host of things we believe and repeat without ever deeply questioning them. They get passed on to generation to generation not because they’re true, but because that’s what our well-meaning but uninformed Sunday School teacher, grandparents, or parents taught us. Reader’s digest version: Generational theology is crap we believe about God and mindlessly repeat without even thinking about whether or not it’s true.

But let me be clear: The idea that God cannot be in the presence of sin is unbiblical nonsense.

Where did this belief come from? My best guess is that it comes from Habakkuk 1:13 where the prophet writes, “Your eyes are too pure to look on evil.” What people miss, however, is the rest of the passage. As soon as he writes this he essentially goes on to ask, “So why do you do it all the time????” It’s as if he’s questioning and trying to work out his own understanding of God– he’s trying to develop his theology, but like most of us, doesn’t have it all worked out cleanly. On one hand, he believes God cannot look upon evil. On the other, he recognize that he does it. Thus, he’s trying to work out tension in his beliefs.

However, the complete narrative of Scripture answers his question and proves this generational theology to be misguided and false: When people say it’s impossible for God to be in the presence of sin, such a statement is totally false.

Just think about the biblical narrative for a minute…

The Bible only has two chapters before sin becomes part of the deal. The Adam and Eve figures sin, become ashamed, and flee from God. They hide from God’s presence because of sin, but God doesn’t– God’s response is to pull close to them, to clothe them, and to help them feel restored. The Bible opens not with God fleeing from the presence of sin, but running to be present in it.

Then, of course, there is the rest of the Old Testament narrative which is a long story of Israel trying to get to know God. And, good grief, do they commit a lot of sins along the way. Their relationship with God is a rocky one– at times he allows them to go off into captivity, at one point God gets pissed and says he’s divorcing them (but yet he keeps hanging around), and then he sends a bunch of prophets to tell them how much they need to change.

God repeatedly shows Israel that while he certainly doesn’t like sin, he doesn’t have to run away every time he sees it.

And then, of course, there’s the ultimate evidence that God is not afraid to be in the presence of sin: Jesus himself.

To hold the belief that God cannot be in the presence of sin, one would have to first deny trinitarian theology and the divinity of Jesus– there’s no legitimate way around that.

One of the reasons Jesus was so unpopular with the religious elite was because of his preference to build his inner circle with those considered the worst, most unclean sinners of society. Jesus took this so far that the Bible tells us during his ministry he had the public reputation of being an alcoholic (Matthew 11:19, Luke 7:34). In fact, one of the nicknames Jesus eared was Friend of Sinners.

Thus, if it is impossible for God to be in the presence of sin, it is not possible that Jesus was God-incarnate– because Jesus spent the majority of his time in the presence of sin.

In fact, the New Testament goes on to say that Jesus actually became sin on our behalf– that’s about as an extreme opposite statement as the premise that God can’t be near sin.

On this one you’ll have to pick between believing in the divinity of Jesus, or believing what your childhood pastor told you about God’s inability or refusal to be in the presence of sin– because you can’t have both.

Does God like or approve of sin? Of course not. But is sin some magical kryptonite where God is blinded and has to run the other way?

Not at all.

The fact that when God became flesh he became know as the “Friend of Sinners” should be enough to remind us of this truth. God doesn’t run from us in the midst of our flaws and brokenness, or even our sin. Instead, God is a friend who sits down beside us and offers to help us get our shit back together.


unafraid 300Dr. Benjamin L. Corey is a public theologian and cultural anthropologist who is a two-time graduate of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary with graduate degrees in the fields of Theology and International Culture, and holds a doctorate in Intercultural Studies from Fuller Theological Seminary. He is also the author of the new book, Unafraid: Moving Beyond Fear-Based Faith, which is available wherever good books are sold. www.Unafraid-book.com. 

Be sure to check out his new blog, right here, and follow on Facebook:

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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • Matthew

    Where do I turn in my asbestos suit??

  • The Bofa on the Sofa

    Where did this belief come from? My best guess is that it comes from Habakkuk 1:13

    No, of course not.

    You do a good job of showing that the claim that “God can’t be in the presence of sin” is nonsense (at least according to the bible), but I don’t think you do a good job of getting to the heart of where it comes from.

    It’s more likely just a post hoc justification for why Jesus had to die on the cross. Of course God can’t be in the presence of sin, because that’s why he had Jesus die on the cross. Jesus’s death on the cross only makes sense if God can’t be in the presence of sin. Without it, God is a total bastard…

    It’s like free will. What’s the biblical basis for Free will? We have to have free will, because if we don’t, then there is no resolution to the problem of evil. Without it, God is a total bastard…

    And another: homosexuality is a choice. Homosexuality has to be a choice because if it wasn’t, God would be a bastard for punishing people for who they are…

    Good running theme. Apologetics needed to prevent God from being a bastard…

  • Paulo Ans

    yap…. another translation on th way :D

  • John

    I agree, it’s a dumb line. What they should say is that we, as sinful beings, cannot enter into a real relationship with God, a holy God.

    Here, I’ll give my favorite misconception: that God is outside of time. It’s a fairly meaningless idea that doesn’t fit with the text of scripture.

  • apoxbeonyou

    Where do you get the idea that God punishes someone for being homosexual?

  • The Bofa on the Sofa

    From every christian who says that homosexuality is a sin.

  • ashpenaz

    Does sin exist? Augustine thought of sin as a privation of good with no existence of its own. Maybe Jesus was never in the presence of sin because there was no sin to be in the presence of. He was the Light of the world who shone in the darkness and removed the shadows. When He saw someone, He saw them as they were, perfect children of God. His Light removed their shadows, showing that their sin, disease, and death was not created by God and never existed.

  • apoxbeonyou

    Hang out here awhile, meet some new people. Not all professing Christians think that way.

  • The Bofa on the Sofa

    Whoever said they did?

  • apoxbeonyou

    I inferred it; my bad.

  • But Jesus had close friendships with all kinds of sinners. So what you’re saying isn’t quite right either.

  • It’s interesting to me that the same people who make the strongest equivalences between Jesus and God are usually the same people who will strongly differentiate them when it comes to the “being around sin” issue.

  • John

    They had a partial relationship, yes, but they did not have the fullness of the relationship that God calls us to. The Holy Spirt does not indwell the unbeliever.

    It’s not a coincidence that those who did not believe in him ended up deserting him.

  • When I read this, I initially thought you meant God punished homosexuals through the mechanism of every Christian who says homosexuality is a sin, and I was like, “Huh. That almost makes a scary kind of logic. Putting up with those people probably does feel like divine punishment.”

  • apoxbeonyou

    Effin’ BOOM. ^^ This.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    This plays into your previous article regarding the atonement. The idea God can’t be in the presence of sin comes from the idea of sin being the absence of God. God can’t be in the presence of sin because wherever God is there is, by definition, no sin: the presence of God destroys sin.
    Human beings have the free will to reject God, and thus separate ourselves from him and get ourselves stuck in sin where God can’t reach us without overriding our free will, or so thoroughly enmeshed in sin the touch of God is intolerable agony to us (think the parable of the wheat and tares). God’s solution (so the classic theory of the atonement goes) was the incarnation, death and resurrection of Jesus: by taking on human nature God could reach us in our sin, and by dying reach us even in death and bring us out again.
    Saying sin is intolerable to God is backwards: traditional theology holds that rather it is God who is intolerable to sin and will not let God touch it, hence the need for Jesus to dive into our (self-created) hell of sin and death after us to fetch us out.
    Edit: Just worked out how to fit this in with the “kids at dinner” motif: it’s not that God won’t let the kids eat until they clean up, it’s the kids who are too ashamed to come to the table because they’re so filthy.

  • CroneEver

    Peter believed and deserted. In fact, all the disciples ran away and deserted him in the Garden.

  • Luke DeLong

    Could it be that it is less about God being able to be in the presence of sin and more about our broken selves not being able to be in the presence of holiness? I may be completely prooftexting this passage (and I apologize if so), but Isaiah 6 came to my mind while reading this, where Isaiah was confronted with his own uncleanliness when standing before God. Even if we ask this question differently, I wonder if we arrive at the same conclusion, that we all must be purified before being able to be with God?

  • Ken Nichols

    You should make this into a series. It would be akin to Paul Young’s “Lies…” book. Stuff we believe just because we heard it in church. I can think of a couple others, like, for instance, we must avoid “the appearance of evil”. I got that one pounded into me as a young man. Pure BS, but where do they GET this stuff?

  • How do you know? Who was there observing and recording that event? Just asking is all.

  • Good reply! That goes well with the thought “who the hell would choose to be homosexual?”.

  • D Sims

    I think we can both agree that God in the aspect of humanity does draw near to us even in our broken state. This is of course is representative of Jesus and His life.

    The fact still remains that God removed Adam from the Garden and His tree of Life.
    Also even though we live a culture that most everyone believes they are going to a
    “better place” when they breathe their last, in the presence of our Creator we will find nothing that is hostile or contrary to His nature.

  • Paul Schlitz Jr.

    Tomorrow’s generational theology: all the kids growing up in conservative mega churches who have been taught to hate immigrants

  • God has a harder time dealing with human excrement.

    Designate a place outside the camp where you can go to relieve yourself. As part of your equipment have something to dig with, and when you relieve yourself, dig a hole and cover up your excrement. For the Lord your God moves about in your camp to protect you and to deliver your enemies to you. Your camp must be holy, so that he will not see among you anything indecent and turn away from you.

  • CroneEver

    Well, that’s according to the gospel accounts.

  • Hey, if popular interpretation can be that Moses wrote the book in which he dies, then we can certainly have gospels written by eye-witness accounts from people who weren’t there. They’ll go right along with the announcement of the celebration of the completion of the Torah, which takes place decades before the Torah was completed. :D

  • Tom Hanson

    Probably an upper-class ancient Greek, as a matter of history. That is if you will consent to the idea that bi-sexuality can count as homosexuality.

  • Bones

    Ben’s been stealing my posts again.

  • Brandon Roberts

    and god did plenty of things that by his own laws are sins

  • Tim

    Indeed. It boggles the mind that more Christians don’t understand this.
    We can’t see what our bibles actually say because we are so conditioned to believe what our authority figures tell us it says.

    We need more Bereans.

  • Tim

    Well, I can tell you that my kids are never too ashamed to come to the table when they’re filthy, so I’m not quite sure how well that last analogy works out.

    I can appreciate where you’re going with it though.

    I also think that we make a bit too much of free will in the whole equation.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    My kids neither: perhaps that’s why Jesus says we have to approach the kingdom of heaven “as a little child”?

  • Tim

    I’d say that’s much closer to the truth. Although, I’d rephrase that last statement to say something more like; we need to be purified before we can fully enjoy being with God.

  • Tim

    Ironic, that.

  • ashpenaz

    If sin is the absence of God, then who created sin? If God doesn’t create or sustain sin, then how does it exist? Does God forgive sin, or does the Light of God show that sin was never created by God and never existed, the same way that light reveals the non-existence of a shadow?

  • Tim

    I’ve always said there should be a Christian port-a-potty company called “holy shit”.

  • gimpi1

    I like this. The whole “God can’t” meme – God can’t change, God can’t abide sin, God can’t allow ‘injustice’ (i.e. tolerating whatever that group dislikes) – is in flat contradiction to the God is all-powerful meme. It’s no more consistent than the “God is all-loving” idea is consistent with the Calvinistic notion that God created most of humanity in order to torture them forever ‘to proclaim His glory.’

    I wonder why more people don’t spot those contradictions?

  • Iain Lovejoy

    As I understand the notion we ourselves create sin by rejecting, fleeing from, ignoring or pushing out God, and God permits us to do so because we have free will (and need free will if we are to exist as independent, thinking beings, which is what God created the universe for).

  • Holy Shit: When last night’s tortillas become today’s abomination before God.

  • Herm

    That’s the Spirit! All can be immersed in the Spirit, who is God, when He is welcomed in to share our suit of comfort, birthday or asbestos, to know the truth that the only sin ever was not in all humility being willing to be immersed in His suit of infinite colors. When not in sin our suits are turned inside out to love all as we love ourselves.

  • Herm

    My baby’s shit doesn’t smell and neither does God’s babies’!

  • ashpenaz

    How can we create something God doesn’t create? No matter how much free will we have, we can’t add something to the Creation which God didn’t create. If we can create evil, that makes us more powerful than God. If there is nothing but God, and God is Good, then there is nothing but Good. Jesus cured sin, disease, and death by showing it to be nothingness.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    Hang on, I already agreed sin was nothingness. You asked me who “created” sin, and I answered we did, in the sense that we are capable of rejecting or fleeing God, and distorting the good that he made. We “create” sin by taking away from (or at least spoiling or rejecting) what God has made. There obviously is actually sin and suffering in the world, that is a matter of straightforward observation.
    To an extent, BTW, I would disagree that we are incapable of creation: we can’t create existence out of nothing but we can be creative in the sense of thinking new things, acting independently in new ways, engaging in art, literature music and thinking out for ourselves new ways of living etc. The flip side of this ability to be creative and think for ourselves is we can do evil and spoil things as well.

  • map

    As I read through Scripture this story comes out. About a God who loves us before we existed. About the final revelation of that God as a Son, a lamb, “slain from the foundation of the world.”. Of a perfect Creator who accepted the faults of a finite being with free will and the face of God by saying, ” I’ll take care of it.” And does. Whatever else happened on the cross the picture of a loving God absorbing our sins into the Community of the Trinity out of love is awesome. God’s perfection is that God also experiences and sacrifices that perfection for the loved one. We need, I think, to understand Divine perfection and holiness, more in terms of relationships and fulfilment of purpose than in purity and sterility.

  • ashpenaz

    God can’t see anything He didn’t create. We might see sin, disease, and death, but God doesn’t. Learning to see from God’s perspective leads to healing. We don’t change from sick to well–we see that God created us well and we’ve always been healthy. Sickness only exists in our mind, in our false perception. We create, but we can never create something that doesn’t reflect God’s goodness.

    Jesus didn’t heal by acknowledging disease’s existence and then changing someone from sick to healthy–He looked at them with the eyes of God, as the perfectly healthy person they have always been since their creation. On the Cross, Jesus showed us the powerlessness and unreality of death. The Resurrection is who we are, not what we’ll become.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    There I am afraid I have to disagree. Illness and suffering are very real, and I don’t think you can pretend to those suffering from illness, injury and starvation that it is their “perception” that is at fault.

  • Don Roberts

    Obviously there is a huge disconnect in some religious ideologies. If they believe the Bible to be inerrant… and believe that God cannot be in the presence of sin or abide sin….then how can they logically reconcile: 1. God is omnipresent? (Jeremiah 23:24, Psalms 139:7-10, Hebrews 4:13) 2. In the Book of Job, Satan came to present himself before God? 3. Jesus was tempted by Satan 3 times in the desert? Maybe if they concentrated more on “loving their neighbor” unconditionally and less on sin, they would truly come to know the God of love who is capable of loving everyone every where no matter their state of being.

  • Stuart Blessman

    Therefore, Christian Perfectionism.

  • “Generational Theology”. I like this term, even if I don’t like what it means :) But it certainly does describe entrenched, unquestioned beliefs very well. Thanks Ben :

  • Yep. I once got hauled over the coals, in public, by a complete stranger, for questioning the idea that ‘God can’t’. Told her where to get off, of course… ;)

  • “… dig a hole and cover up your excrement. For the Lord your God moves about in your camp to protect you and doesn’t want to tread in anything nasty…” ;)

  • Which is of course the bottom line.

  • Yeah, I mean I hate to look upon ‘sin’. I hate seeing broken lives, messed-up people, irrational illnesses, stupidity; all of this falls short of the mark and is somewhat woeful. I hate what sin does to people. But it doesn’t mean I don’t get in there and get my hands dirty and help those people. And that’s what God does, both in Jesus and in His people.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    Not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing. I doubt it’s possible to achieve complete perfection (however defined) in this life. If we are to say that the last of our sin must be burned away before we can stand before him, I suspect most of us will stand before him at least slightly singed.

  • Indeed, one of CS Lewis’s ideas was that one reason why pain and suffering exist is to show us that the world we are living in is indeed real, and not some sort of dream or pseudo-existence. Pain and suffering ground us very firmly in the reality of what *is*.

    Also the phrase ‘God can’t’ is an oxymoron, at least for everything that is not intrinsically impossible.

  • Good article and so true. If God cannot look upon sin, then He has to remain separate and apart from the human race. Yet the bible as a whole shows that God loves us and provided restoration to fellowship with Him. Jesus hung out with all the wrong people according to the religious leaders of his day. Now he calls us to do the same. Love God and love others. The others being people in general, not just those you agree with or see as fellow christian believers.

  • Ray Smith

    Umm, the Bible:
    1 Corinthians 6:8-10New King James Version (NKJV)

    8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

  • apoxbeonyou

    Do some research and come back. Read some more of Ben’s blogs. You’ll get the real picture.

  • Herm

    Ray, I’ll give you a hint where to start for research. Match all of those traits that will not inherit the kingdom of God with Matthew: 7:12, 22:37-40, Luke 10:25-37 and the Decalogue. Think consenting adult as you compare for in true translations each of those traits mentioned are subjugation of another without love of the other as them selves.

  • Bones

    Yes, one can only assume that God and Jesus are different.

  • Bones

    Lol…thats dumb….they had a better relationship than anyone in history.

  • Bones

    “homosexuality is a choice. Homosexuality has to be a choice because if it wasn’t, God would be a bastard for punishing people for who they are…”

    The alternative being of course that God doesn’t punish gay people and they have no choice.

    The simple fact is if God punishes anyone, he’s a total bastard.

  • Bones

    Lol…

  • (My hermeneutics might not be flawless, but I’ve never understood how Shavuot came to be associated with the giving of the Torah. It’s not referenced as such in the Torah and that interpretation doesn’t seem to be supported by the text itself. x.x

    Though dividing Torah law into three categories is the thing that will forever make me want to throw things at people.)

  • Duane Locsin

    It only confirms that God himself makes for a terrible eyewitness.

    Police: “so which direction did the 6’5 tall, olive tanned man, wearing a balaclava run off to after robbing the bank?”

    God: “I ain’t seen nothin’ ’cause I’m everywhere BUT not everywhere ya know!?”

    GENESIS 3:9
    -and they hid from the Lord (Adam and Eve) God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man…………………………………..“Where are you?”

  • Duane Locsin

    Cognitive dissonance.

    holding contradictory or opposing beliefs that often is not confirmed, doesn’t run parallel or proven false by reality.

    cognitive dissonance can be maintained by ways of:

    -compartmentalization (a powerful example are actual Scientists with Religious beliefs do this when researching and have to in order to do good research)
    -denial and/or will full ignorance
    -special pleading and exceptions

  • Cassandra Frye

    PRAISE THE LORD FOR HIS WORD IS TRUE THE APOSTLES CHURCH OF GOD SINCE 1965 EVANGELIST AND SON

  • Minae

    I understand what you are saying, but I think you are misunderstanding the heart of “God cannot be in the presence of sin.” I don’t think that it means that sin is a Kryptonite that God is scared of. It means sin is a real problem that separates us from God. Just as darkness cannot be in the presence of light, and oil cannot be in the presence of water—we cannot be with God because of our sin. That’s why Jesus had to atone for our sins and take care of the sin problem, so that we CAN be with Him.

  • Andy Doerksen

    You’re obviously very devoted to the views you express here. One might even say “fundamentally” devoted.

    I laugh at how “ex-fundamentalists” invariably embrace another set of fundamentals, completely oblivious to the fact that NO human being escapes fundamentalism of _some_ kind.

  • myvoicecounts

    God does not tolerate sin. He is in the presence of sin all the time. Satan stands before God right now, accusing us to Him. (That’s why Satan s callled the great accuser)

  • merlin

    jesus is not god incarnate.
    jesus is the son of god.

  • merlin

    actually, satan does not stand in front of god right now. satan and his followers were cast out of heaven .

  • Herm

    … and children born of, in and with the Spirit today are no more incarnate than Jesus, the Christ.

  • merlin

    yep

  • merlin

    “God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit work together in all things!!”
    “They cannot be separated”
    false.
    god stayed in heaven, jesus came to earth.
    “they have different functions but they act as ONE!”
    true … they ACT as one.
    but they are distinct separate beings. acting in harmony with one another for one purpose.
    god did not become flesh through his son.
    god is god.
    the son is the son.
    different beings.
    yes they are always one in purpose.
    but they are three distinct, individual beings, working in harmony for the salvation of mankind.
    but.
    god is god … the father.
    jesus is the son.
    the holy spirit is spirit.
    3 different beings.

  • Rihari_Wilson

    “Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?” John 14:9

  • Rihari_Wilson

    “One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them.” Job 1:6

  • merlin

    and people see my father in me.
    that does not make me my father.
    john 6:38
    “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”
    god, the father is not jesus, the son.
    jesus, the son is not god, the father.
    trinity is false.

  • merlin

    yep … satan came with them … and then …
    revelations 12:7-12
    7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

    satan does not stand before god.
    he has been cast out.

  • merlin

    jesus is not claiming he is the father … only that people see the father in him because jesus is doing the will of the father.

    people see me in my son … but my son and i are two different beings

    john 6:38
    “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”

    jesus is telling you he is not got the father.

    luke 22:42
    “Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”

    jesus himself is telling you he is not god the father.

    matthew 24:36
    “However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.”

    jesus himself is telling you he is not god the father.

    John 6:37-39
    “…37All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never turn away. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me. 39And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of all those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.…”

    again … jesus himself is telling you he is not the father.

    acts 7:55
    “But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God”

    again … jesus is standing next to god the father.
    he is not god the father.

    matthew 27:46
    “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”

    again … if god the father and jesus the son are the same … god the father could not have forsaken jesus the sion.

    god had to leave jesus to atone for man’s sins on his own … because even jesus has to use free agency.

    John 4:34
    “Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work.”

    again … jesus is there to accomplish god the father’s work … not his own.
    because jesus is not god the father.

    you do not seem to understand the basic premise.

    there are three beings in the godhead.
    god the father.
    jesus the son,
    the holy spirit.
    they are working together for one cause.
    the salvation of mankind.
    the term”we are one” simply means they are working together for a common goal.
    not that they are the same being.

  • Suzuki35

    well its also humans who cant tolerate sin whatever offends them… men women boys and girls do commit SUICIDE when someone hurts them (sins against them )and they feel helpless to stop it…this is when you let another human know that something bothers you immensely and they don’t stop… expecting another human to care is as bad as expecting god to.. what offends you wont stop… you have to do something about it.. they say “change yourself” and “your reaction” get stronger etc (change who you are/who you were meant to be) this is why daughter zion gets the victory in the bible as “gentle and delicate/dainty” and people told her to lie down so they could offend/walk on her… she gets to utterly destroy and pulverize them because her father loves her… it does feel good when offenders die instead of those who would kill themselves just to get away.. as no one “needs” to offend once someone has made themselves clear that something bothers them. stranger is not a family member,you don’t need to be bullied by one or even love or care for one or even be in their presence. strangers are practically BEGGING for you to have feelings for them positive or negative.. and they have crossed the line.therefore it feels peaceful when they are removed due to someone caring for you. it doesn’t feel as good to stand up for yourself because you rather people just behaved and caught onto cues when you show you are offended. its ok to hate them and be glad when theyre dead/in jail.. wherever they end up.theyre not your children nor your responsibility. it is them who are mistaken. the new breed was raised in the wild .. (not two parent homes) and they will not produce a society anyone wants to live in. and they will never provide you peace and joy. so just let them all know right away you don’t like them.

  • Suzuki35

    its the female indwelling who says she cant steer men as donkeys with bit in jaw which way they should go as she would get “weary” doing that….its not her job.. its a disgrace for a woman to have to steer men.. to make them behave…..

  • Suzuki35

    he also said when a woman is raped “no one heard no one saw”thats in the bible.. and that goes deep too as god is including himself in that..he didnt see hear or watch a rape… and just giving “after the fact” laws and rules about it.. its so impersonal.. imagine a father telling his daughter that face to face? some cultures (like muslims) consider THEMSELVES AS MEN to be “holy and dainty daughters” that cant be “soiled” so if a woman comes to one of them for help after rape he says ew get away from me, you disgraced ME “kill her” something sick and twisted in “holiness” when it comes to humans… they become the nastiest beings on earth.. it becomes a competition and a fake holiness undescribably stupid.

  • Suzuki35

    I hope a son/male slain lamb is not in any competition with the virgin/slaughtered lamb /daughter/Bathsheba… she is also called a slaughtered lamb with a “father who loved her greatly” and she was “fed to passing guests” and david has to restore her 4 times as such…….

  • Suzuki35

    muslims have a thing about that too… ocd like…

  • Suzuki35

    I don’t like a lot of dog poop around… glad theres laws and rules about that now..

  • Suzuki35

    daughter zion/nothing that offends or trespasses will pass through her ever again”
    all verses about God match all verses about her as well

  • Suzuki35

    well..he felt a “drain” when he healed things.. and he groaned in spirit.. and got angry etc… saying it was suffering to deal with humans… how long must I suffer you… when a woman touched his robe he said he felt the drain… he sweat blood and cried…. he gives daughter zion the victory later on “she starts sweet and ends bitter” all abuse her for believing…bow to god/male figures and yet abuse her.. his beloved…

  • Suzuki35

    the bride is not the church or males…. they wanted her as their mother by negating him…now they “all hate her” just as he said…

  • Suzuki35

    yes partial. Jesus even said how he longed to drink afresh/anew with his followers but couldn’t yet.. he said he “suffered” many..and had patience etc… he showed a right example.. closeness wasn’t fully there with all the sinners he spent time with…he was giving an example. not every person was changed around him. not all accepted him.

  • Suzuki35

    its about rape.being forceful about your sodomy onto those who DONT like it. and who find it repulsive to hear about it on tv daily etc..since anal tract isn’t a place for any object… (not healthy for any being..even the animals they sodomize get internal damage not to menton soul pain and sadness) so what I mean is they DO recruit boys young/teens by cultural tv shows…. if it seems ok.. many are swayed into trying it by telling themselves well it may hurt and be bodily damage but “everyone is doing it so it must be ‘ok’ and ill get used to it and ill be “accepted” by a group….. the sodomites were begging to rape men… by force…if God doesn’t punish rapists.. or swayers etc then its not a good god to have… worthless if he doesn’t protect sons and daughters….. (I mean even my earthly father better protect me from that)………not say “oh its ok honey everyone does it if you feel like it TRY IT” nahhhhhhh the boys/teens are even trained to be submissive… they have names for themselves as far as who is on the “giving” and “receiving” end of it.. this comes through cultural training…. its not natural… no boy ever thought oh wow I want to be submissive to a man…and be in pain… its all mental…a mother dies before she goves birth to any such creature (spiritually she gets to abort/or undo such a being…) since its too painful for a good mother to contemplate her own flesh doing that… her own soul cannot be imparted to a son like that..its impossible… God is most likely female………………..image of God all start female…. doesnt mean for men to be confused sexually.. all they had to do was not fight how they were made… and submit to the goodness…I don’t suppose its possible…

  • Suzuki35

    the man who says for women to submit also says he is homosexual… but daughter zions saviour says he comes to her meek and lowly and humble… and tells her not to fear….

  • Suzuki35

    God hates homosexuals as much as a woman has a right to abort one … it shouldn’t live.

  • Suzuki35

    homosexuals do not need love. they pretend to… to survive in society. it worked for awhile… they will not be tolerated.

  • Bones

    Yeah it’s about rape…like the rape of the concubine in judges 19.

    Same story except this time the bloke gives his concubine to be raped by the gays….

    As for gays being recruited, that’s stupid. Are people recruiting straight people?

  • Yeah me too. And remember they didn’t have plastic poop bags back then… ;)

  • apoxbeonyou

    What a horrible thing to say. Jesus commanded us to love our neighbor, and they are our neighbors.

  • apoxbeonyou

    God hates no one.

  • Brian Huggett

    What is the end result?

    “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:13 -15)

    “He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil” (1st John 3:8)

    “Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness” (2nd Peter 3:13)

    Sounds a bit like God cannot tolerate sin don’t you think?.

  • sheckyshabaz

    Excellent Job. This can easily be understood. First off, sin doesn’t mean what people think it means. It simply means you are lacking something. That “something” can be knowledge, understanding, love, health, etc. Adam didn’t literally eat fruit from a tree and send the world into chaos. The trees are metaphors or analogies for something else; and to understand what those represent one must understand Hebrew, but for the sake of argument let’s pretend he deliberately disobeyed and ate fruit. God came looking for Adam while Adam hid himself. If God couldn’t be around sin why did he go looking for Adam after he supposedly sinned? The first time the word sin is used in the bible is after Adam leaves the garden and Cain kills his brother. Even in the presence of that “sin” God protected Cain. Abraham sinned when he killed the kings and God was with him afterwards. David, Saul, Solomon, every king, Moses, Joshua, Jacob, the list goes on. The NT gospel is all about God loving you as you are.

    The concept that man is separated from God is not Hebraic or biblical. That ideology began under Greek philosophy. It’s pagan and not godly.

  • Occupy Christianity

    Excellent, Ben…thanks so much for this needed corrective to how so many of us were raised to think. But I think of it even more simply (though, admittedly less biblically). If I, with my imperfect human love, can completely love and want to be in the presence of my son even if he’s “in sin”, how much more can God’s perfect love overcome my own “sin”!

  • Brian Huggett

    You hope…

  • Bones

    You left out the False Prophet ie Paul being thrown into the lake of fire..

  • Bones

    No, that’s your hope….

    your view of sin is no different to the pharisees.

  • Evritt McGill

    Whaaaat? Habakkuk is NOT saying “Your eyes are too pure to look on evil.”…“So why do you do it all the time????”!!! Habakkuk is saying, “Your eyes are too pure to look on evil.”…”Therefore we have to be obedient in sacrifice, continuously and painfully rebuked, but these other people don’t” and then goes on to explain it is because they go around as if they have no ruler. Sort of a jealousy thing from Habakkuk…”why do we suffer while they prosper” kind of thing. Which is explained in God’s Word that He only rebukes those that are His. We do the same thing now, ‘why do they have so many nice things? Why are they so successful in their job’, etc., etc.

    Jesus being God and Man…both…fully, and that is your proof that God can be in the presence of sin? Because Christ became sin? “Christ was not guilty, and could not be made guilty; but he was treated as if he were guilty” -Spurgeon. The dynamic of Jesus being flesh and God is completely incomprehensible to us in that it violates everything we know of God, being in presence of sin just being one of them. God can’t change, God can’t deny Himself, etc. You can only reconcile that if you accept the fact that, while He is God, He is also man. Not understand it, just accept it.

    There are PLENTY of passages that show God cannot be in the presence of sin. What in the world do you think is meant by the continuous reference to light vs. darkness? How many rooms have you walked into and turned on the light, and still found darkness?

    I’m completely lost at your point here…what are you saying…”Jesus didn’t need to die, we’re fine”…?

  • Evritt McGill

    “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.” -Job 1:6 The sons of God presented themselves, not Satan. Satan was ‘among’ the sons of God.

  • Evritt McGill

    Oh, one other thing…Jesus died for our sins and if you don’t accept that you will be eternally separate from God, because of your sin. And that is what is called “Biblical Theology” whether you like it or not.

  • Nolan

    I appreciate you being thoughtful and trying to dig deeper on stuff like this. However, I disagree with the content of this post. Although I think I might actually agree with the first part of its title. It’s erroneous to say that God can’t be around sin. However, it is true that sin can’t be around God. It’s not as if the sin poses some threat to God that makes Him jump at the thought of it. It’s that God’s holiness poses a great and terrible threat to sin. This is why God often creates distance between Himself and people – so that He doesn’t destroy them because of their sin. So, God doesn’t run from sin because he’s afraid. He creates distance between Himself and His people so that they might be able to continue to live. It’s best to think of God as a fire and sin as paper or something. If it comes to close, it gets scorched up. This is better than your kryptonite illustration that puts God in a position of weakness.

    It’s why when Uzzah tries to catch the ark of the covenant in 2 Samuel 6:7, he is killed.

    It’s why Moses is only allowed to see the “back” of God’s glory in Exodus 33:18-20. “Because no one can see [God] and live.”

    It’s why although God did come find and care for Adam and Eve in their time of sin, He also banished them from the Garden (Genesis 3:23) and no longer walked with them as He did in the Garden from what we read.

    This is ALSO in part why the cross worked. Because Jesus taking all sin from believers and onto Himself in His holiness obliterated that sin and guilt so that He would not have to do that same to us. It’s not gone and no longer needs to be dealt with.

    This is also why the temple’s holy of holies was not open for access to all believers freely until the minute the work on the cross was accomplished and why the Holy Spirit didn’t indwell believers until after the ascension. Because it was after Jesus had completed the work of the Gospel that sin was dealt with and that believers no longer carried that guilt with them. Then, God could allow us to have full access to Him without being destroyed because of the flammable sin we brought before Him.

    I’d love to hear your thoughts, OP.