Fair Warning: Welcoming Immigrants & Refugees is a “Heaven or Hell” Issue

Fair Warning: Welcoming Immigrants & Refugees is a “Heaven or Hell” Issue January 27, 2017

Hell - Heaven signpost in a desert background

Growing up Evangelical, we were often warned that some issues were “heaven or hell” issues. While even the most rigid among us recognized that some issues were open to differences of opinion or personal conviction, there are some moral issues where Jesus draws such a hard line that it becomes a “heaven or hell” issue.

Meaning, unless Jesus was just totally bluffing, there are some things that aren’t open to negotiation.

There are some things, according to Jesus, that will either hinder or absolutely prohibit one from entering his Kingdom– because he said so. The flip side of entering his Kingdom is hell– whatever one believes that may or may not be. However one interprets the concept of hell (I have a long series on that here), Jesus does warn of a divine punishment (whether punitive or restorative, permanent or temporary) that will fall upon those who choose to not embrace the principles of his Kingdom.

It’s hard to get around that reality for anyone who believes the words of Jesus are true and authoritative.

Growing up, hell-fire preachers were quick to identify things they thought were a “heaven or hell” issue– issues where being wrong sealed your fate in the afterlife. This most often had at least something to do with where you put your private parts. Or sometimes dancing, too– because we all know what happens if you get to dancing.

Even in the television series Way of the Master with Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron, these street preachers would correctly tell people that the Bible even says that “all liars will have their place in the lake of fire,” meaning that simply being an unrepentant liar can be seen as a “heaven or hell” issue.

But here’s the funny thing: in all those years growing up Evangelical and hearing all about these heaven or hell issues, I never once heard people focus on the one time Jesus actually warned people about what he considered heaven or hell issues.

I can see why they ignored that critical passage– and I can see why they continue to do so today.

The passage in question is the parable of the sheep and the goats, found in Matthew 25. In this, Jesus says that at the final judgement he will divide the nations into two groups– one on his left, and one on his right. The group that gets into his Kingdom? Well, Jesus says it’s because their faith led them to do some very specific actions.

The group of people Jesus says he will send away into everlasting punishment? Well, that group of people also had faith and claimed to be Christians, but they earned themselves eternal punishment for not doing certain things they should have done.

What are these heaven or hell actions that Jesus listed? Well, it was liberal nonsense if you were to ask some:

Feed the hungry. Clothe the naked. Visit the prisoner. Welcome the stranger.

When Jesus condemns the group on one side of the room to eternal punishment, they quickly object and remind him that they are Christians. They say, “But we did X, Y, and Z, and did it all in the name of Jesus!”

Jesus of course, tells them “depart from me, I never knew you” and tells them that their refusal to care for the hungry, the needy, and to welcome the immigrant was a personal offense against him. He goes as far as identifying with the marginalized to an extreme– saying that when they refused to welcome the stranger, they were actually refusing to welcome the Son of God himself.

I find it equally sad and amusing that many Christians are so quick to quote Paul’s list of people who will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, but will do the most intense intellectual and hermeneutical gymnastics to avoid the clear and plain statement of Jesus in Matthew 25: those who did not care for the poor and needy, and who shut out the immigrant, will face divine punishment at the final judgement.

They claim we should overturn marriage equality in order to avoid the wrath of God.

They claim we should outlaw abortion in order to avoid the wrath of God.

But they never, ever, ever seem to say, “We should welcome refugees in order to avoid the wrath of God.”

With so many Christians celebrating and supporting President Trump’s new executive orders functionally barring the most needy refugees from the United States– refugees from areas we’ve bombed to oblivion, refugees who could surely die if we do not let them in, I grieve over the number of American Christians who joined the wrong side of what Jesus himself claimed was a “heaven or hell” issue.

If you are a Christian, if you believe that Jesus was the Son of God, that his words have authority, and that some issues of morality are actually “heaven or hell” issues, consider it fair warning that you *might* not want to ignore the direct warning Jesus gives about not welcoming in the stranger.


unafraid 300Dr. Benjamin L. Corey is a public theologian and cultural anthropologist who is a two-time graduate of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary with graduate degrees in the fields of Theology and International Culture, and holds a doctorate in Intercultural Studies from Fuller Theological Seminary. He is also the author of the new book, Unafraid: Moving Beyond Fear-Based Faith, which is available wherever good books are sold. www.Unafraid-book.com. 

Be sure to check out his new blog, right here, and follow on Facebook:

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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • apoxbeonyou

    One could make the argument that the mandate was for individuals, not governments. That seems to be the sentiment I see regarding these types of things. Jesus was talking to people, not Caesar.

  • Richard Lambert

    I think the one I most struggle with is welcoming the stranger….I was thinking about this recently, I will soon be living on my own. I’ve been considering which neighborhood I will be moving to, where I can afford. None of the places are very low in the crime aspect. The thought of someone I don’t know coming over makes me fearful. I don’t have any problem with meeting stranger, but I do feel reluctant to just let anyone in…I guilty for this. Dose anyone else have similar feelings?

  • Ann

    If refugees aren’t allowed in by the government, it will be pretty hard for any individuals to welcome them.

  • Nimblewill

    “Feed the hungry. Clothe the naked. Visit the prisoner. Welcome the stranger.”

    I am in full agreement with your interpretation of Matthew 25 and hell for that matter. I have wrestled with it for many years. But can’t one be against policies for illegal immigration into our country and still love them unconditionally when they are here? I have taught school in Georgia for 26 years and Hispanic children( I never questioned their being here legally) were and still are some of the best and most respectful kids that I ever taught. I really love them and they know it. I am still for immigration laws.

  • Andrew

    Looking at the man, Jesus felt genuine love for him. “There is still one thing you haven’t done,” he told him. “Go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” Mark 10:21

    Ok Corey, here’s the deal. Sell everything you have (house, furniture, electronics, and all your clothes except for a couple of sets to wear), give the money to the poor, and resign yourself to a lifestyle of traveling and helping people/preaching wherever you go. Then I’ll concede that you have the right to pass the judgements on your fellow men that you so hypocritically make now on a daily basis.

    But you won’t do that. At the end of the day your not about Jesus. You certainly don’t love anyone who doesn’t think like you. I highly doubt you ever carry out any of Jesus’s commands for giving in your own life (content as you are to pass judgement on tens of millions you’ve never met or known from the safety of the Internet). At the end of the day you’re nothing but a partisan hack, same as Franklin Graham.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    Two problems with this:
    1. America is a democracy and politicians are people: if you vote for someone whose platform is that they will bar the door to strangers in need or persecute them in need you are voting for someone deliberately so as to enable them to commit a serious sin on your behalf.
    2. Apparently, different rules apply where governments legislate “sinfully” on matters of sexual morality, making the cop out entirely hypocritical.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    There’s a case for immigration laws, sure: pressure on social services, concern re international crime and terrorism, what have you, may mean you need to keep an eye on it, and welcoming strangers doesn’t mean letting anyone at all freeload when they can look after themselves. I think it’s blanket bans on desperate people from entire countries that Dr Corey is objecting to.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    When did you become a possessionless itinerant preacher, then?

  • John

    For somone who’s interested in taking into historical context, you seem to ignore it in this case.

    You seem to be focusing specifically on the phrase “I was a stranger, and you invited Me in.” Let’s consider what that meant in 1st century Palestine. Did it mean that they were to have open immigration, all people should be allowed to have full citizenship in the nation? No, of course not. To make that interpretation is to totally twist the meaning of the verse.

    It was referring to foreigners traveling through your town or city. Instead of shunning them or oppression them because of their foreign status (or even racism), you are to help them and let them stay with you. It’s also good to note that staying in people’s homes as a traveler was common back then. There wasn’t the same dependence on hotels. So it was important that these people had a place to stay and Christians were called to provide it.

    It’s also a total misuse of the text to apply all individual commands to government. The government has obligations, like the application of law and order, that individuals don’t have.

    this line:

    refugees from areas we’ve bombed to oblivion,

    Is also plain non-sense. The refugees are a result of the war between Assad, rebel groups, and ISIS, not our bombs.

  • John

    Obligations for individual action are not the same as obligations on government actions. The government, for example, has the God given duty of establishing law and order, but individuals do not.

  • Andrew

    I’m not. I also don’t write blog posts telling people they’re not being correct Christians.

  • otrotierra

    Yes, this is indeed a common loophole that U.S. Evangelicals use to deny Jesus and The Greatest Commandment.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    We are not talking about obligations on government. We are talking about governments actively intervening to prevent refugees from fleeing persecution, and indeed actively preventing individuals from fulfilling their duty to welcome strangers.

  • I have frequently been in situations that I was not prepared for. Even before I knew the Lord had to rely on my gut feelings. In a situation that feels dangerous I simply pray “help me Jesus!!” It might help to learn about what codependence means and try to evaluate how prone to being codependent you are. Don’t be afraid!! In my humble opinion you may be going to learn that God is a very present help in time of trouble!! I found it odd and unsettling to learn that we are sent as sheep among wolves. When I first heard of it I resented it!! It still doesn’t set well with me!! But I’m still here after 65 years of trying to live life on life’s terms.

  • John

    Of course we’re talking about obligations on government. Is it an obligation of the government to keep its people safe from outside sources? How about to uphold the laws of the land, like immigration law? Is there a governmental obligation to use public resources to help people outside of it’s jurisdiction? Etc. These are all serious questions of Godly obligation on government, and are interesting discussions to have.
    I’m fine if you want to argue that letting in more Syrian refugees is a good idea, but the section of scripture in question has nothing to do with it.

  • Andrew I totally Don’t Come Away with the same message you are apparently coming away with from Ben Corey’s blog. I think you may be incapable of a nuanced discussion. All or nothing, black and White, stinking thinking is apparently all you know!! Another interesting discussion would be why and how you and those like you are hidebound in this fashion and how you could become more patient, tolerant and loving. Perhaps this should be another discussion that Ben Corey could write about in his blogs.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    If you are not interested in Dr Corey’s views on Christian morality and theology, why are you reading his blog?

  • You are correct sir, nothing about syrians specifically. But in my humble opinion this blog has everything to do with someone who is in trouble and needing your help. If you are aware of someone or a group of people needing your help and asking for it perhaps God is calling you to do something specific for specific individuals in your sphere of influence. We are all children of God in my humble opinion. Don’t be afraid!!

  • Andrew

    I sometimes read/listen to people with different perspectives. Is that a new concept to you?

  • KD

    That’s so funny! So you are saying we don’t have to give refuge to the suffering? Or maybe you are saying, only if they are Christian, or maybe you mean, its a different world now, so Jesus shouldn’t expect christians to have the same views as in the days when there weren’t hotels! I’m trying to get your point. And to clarify, we did bomb some of the refugees. The ones from Iraq that will also be banned. the Ones that gave intelligence to our soldiers so that they could stay alive and get the bad guys, even those good samaritans will be ban from entering. Across the board ban is un-american and un-christian like. Case-by-case review for our safety is needed, not this ban.

  • Andrew

    I’m more than capable of a nuanced discussion. Dr. Corey’s blog has given me the impression that he is not up to having one though. “Another interesting discussion would be why those like you are hidebound in this fashion and how you could be more patient, tolerant and loving.” Those like me? Patient, tolerant, and loving? I don’t know you personally so I won’t make any accusations, but I will pose this question. Since the election last November, how many people have you blocked on social media because of who they voted for?

  • KD

    I don’t think this message was about immigration, but about the refugee ban. As for the illegal immigration issue, I agree, there are many wonderful hispanic individuals in this country, but we should have secure borders. The part I don’t like is how Trump have to be mean and decisive in going about it. We know the border should be safer, but lets do it with dignity. We know we are not going to throw out 11 million people, so lets deal with it. Both political parties are just using the issue as a football.

  • R/R 2016

    The King will answer and say to them, “Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me” (NASB).

    Emphasis mine. The parable is insisting upon the care of our own. That is, of believers and for believers. There are, of course, other Scriptures with strong statements about the treatment of foreigners (Exodus 22:21; 23:9; Leviticus 19:34; Deuteronomy 10:19), which I think speak better to your point.

    But while we’re on the treatment of “these brothers of mine”, perhaps it should be asked, should Christian bloggers create and nurture a virtual space in which the stranger’s voice is welcome?

  • Iain Lovejoy

    But your initial comment was a complete rant against Ben expressing his opinions in the first place.

  • Andrew

    He’s perfectly free to express his opinions. I’m just holding him to the standards he expresses in his own opinions.

  • John

    There won’t be a Muslim ban. It would be unconstitutional, no matter how much Trump wants it.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    To all those saying the Biblical references to welcoming a stranger do not refer to governments’ immigration policies, there is a very good reason for this: the whole concept of immigration controls over national borders didn’t even exist until the rise of nationalism in the 19th Century. Even the idea of nation states at all does not pre-date the renaissance. You are drawing a distinction which would have been incomprehensible to anyone for at least 15 centuries after the Bible was written.

  • otrotierra

    U.S. Evangelicals merely use it as their primary excuse to deny actually following Jesus and The Greatest Commandment. They have no problem with government services such as the Military Industrial Complex.

    The intellectual sloth of Evangelicals following Trump in his crusade against refugees and undocumented laborers is just thinly veiled self-worship of the kind that would make Anton LaVey blush.

  • swbarnes2

    So you are arguing that America’s refusal to accept Jewish refugees from the MS St. Louis aka the “voyage of the damned” in 1939 was sound Christian practice?

    Good to know.

  • John

    I’m saying the verse being quoted doesn’t apply to governmental immigration policy. I didn’t argue one way or the other on actually letting in refugees.

  • R/R 2016

    The Walls of Constantinople
    The Antonine Wall
    The Hadrian Wall
    The Great Wall of Qin
    The Great Wall of Han

    Of the cuff. That’s not to mention censuses and expulsions. Besides, if what you say is true, and the authors really wrote with no concept of border management, why is one’s opinion on the matter, then, of any biblical consequence?

    Edit: To be more direct, would you then agree that the author of Matthew 25 is writing irrespective of the immigration issue, and therefore Ben’s application of the parable is a poor contextual fit?

  • Bones

    Lol the bible doesn’t apply to government unless it’s about your morality eg gay sex.

  • John

    I would never argue that the government should ban homosexuality or homosexual activities. So, you’re totally incorrect.

  • Bones

    You just go on people’s blogs and tell them they are not correct Christians for not following your US jingoism.

  • Bones

    I haven’t blocked any but i’ve been blocked by family and friends.

    It’s important to hear all perspectives.

    Most of us are in conservative families and have conservative friends.

    The idea that progressives are intolerant is just another lie.

  • Bones

    As opposed to same sex marriage and anti-abortion laws which conservatives want the government to act on.

  • Bones

    Are you threatened by Syrian refugees?

  • Andrew

    Huh? If holding people to their own standards is jingoism then yeah, guilty as charged.

  • Andrew

    “The idea that progressives are intolerant is just another lie.” Yeah I always notice all those tolerant progressives on college campuses trying to run conservative speakers out, and occasionally trying to shut down conservative clubs. Every progressive knows that it’s important to hear all viewpoints…unless those viewpoints disagree with their own.

  • John

    Are you threatened by honest discussion?

  • Delta 14

    Anyone who threatens another with “hell” regardless of the reasons maybe in jeopardy themselves. It’s a tight rope I wouldn’t want to walk myself!

  • Dear Andrew, thank you for displaying the adverse effects of cognitive dissonance and giving me an opportunity to open my pie hole to give you some Grace!!

    I thought about this and decided to open the discussion myself regarding why those like you are hidebound. I’m forming an opinion and doing research about and how you could be more patient, tolerant and loving.

    In my humble opinion and you and others like you have identified with an abuser, like Donald Trump for instance, and your thoughts, opinions and behavior have become fashioned by Propaganda and brainwashing. the Stockholm syndrome, you’ve acquired, probably beginning sometime in childhood, which has been reinforced throughout your lifetime where you were the victim of controlling abusers, has shaped your consciousness, and has now snowballed to this debilitating, pathetic positive regard for demagogue like Trump.
    As per your comments here and in your profile one can see that relationships with other commenters who do not agree your points of View are dismissive and derisive. I understand why you and those like you are threatened by anyone that interrupts the narrative that might detach you from being controlled by your demagogue of choice. There is no real you because your soul has been murdered. You have identified with your abuser and if you should become disenchanted with him and what he stands for you would not exist. you are only trying to Survive by keeping idolatry of him alive in you. Because you are not capable of thinking in a balanced, rational fashion about him you have filled your mind and heart with propaganda that has traumatic effect on your ability to develop and understand the environment of hostility you now inhabit. You are unaware of how dangerous it is to be in bondage to an abuser like Trump. In truth you have lost your self-esteem and true identity. The state of anxiety this is causing you is affecting your consciousness, physical and mental health.

    Because of this loss you exhibit here an avoidance of listening to other people and getting the help you need to create a healthy narrative from outside your circle of fetid assumptions and rigid prejudices.

    You might feel that your connection to the elected president makes you feel important, empowered, exceptional, but if you could be honest with yourself, you would know you have identified with a Persona, a pretentious brand, that cannot take command of the situation, let alone fix the problems the United States and the Earth is facing right now.

    You cannot afford to be disenchanted because you have been brainwashed believing there will be adverse consequences if you go against the wishes of the controller with whom you have permitted to hold you hostage because of your stress and fear.

  • What about those Christians who consider all humanity their brethren? (Doesn’t matter if they’re “Biblically right or wrong” in your eyes) – in their eyes, it’s potentially everyone?

    I’m a pretty useless person, myself – but I guess I’m in the clear on the “visiting prisoners” bit, at least. I spent a few years visiting someone in prison and that guy was *literally* my brother, by my parents. Personally, I think I would have been a better person if I were visiting random people to make their lives better rather than just practicing nepotism.

  • R/R 2016

    My first thoughts: (1) I would question whether they actually believed that. (2) If they did believe that, I’d surmise they had a poor grasp of evil and its grip on world history.

  • Wrote to Samaritan’s Purse this morning:
    I’ve been a donor in the past, but I will no longer associate myself or my giving with Samaritan’s Purse. I will actively encourage others to put their donations elsewhere.

    I find it utterly incomprehensible that an org with a long page of “refugee needs” and a stated goal to be like the Good Samaritan of Scripture is led by a man who said recently, ““It’s not a biblical command for the country to let everyone in who wants to come, that’s not a Bible issue. We want to love people, we want to be kind to people, we want to be considerate, but… there are laws that relate to immigration and I think we should follow those laws. Because of the dangers we see today in this world, we need to be very careful.” (Franklin Graham) This is inconsistent with the mandates of Christ and Scripture to “welcome the stranger.”

    Christ, not fear-driven laws, should be our model. His words are specifically that if we do not feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the prisoner, and WELCOME THE STRANGER, he does not know us. We are “goats” and have no part in the kingdom of God.

    I urge the board of Samaritan’s Purse to re-consider the leadership of Graham and whether his personal views are consistent with the organization’s values. If NOT welcoming the stranger, in fact, deliberate unwelcoming of the stranger is what you are about. If not, I urge you to ask him to step down as his words continue to taint the reputation of your organization and call all of it’s ministries into question. Frankly, it makes you appear as hypocritical as non-believers accuse Christians of being. If Graham’s views are consistent with Samaritan’s Purse’s values… well, I have nothing else to add to Jesus’ words.

  • Andrew

    Dear Charles (if I may call you that). If you had read my profile, as you said you did, you would have probably noticed that I don’t like Trump. I voted for Trump simply because I thought he was the better chance for originalist justices. Beyond that I can’t stand him. Perhaps we should open up another discussion, namely why do the people who claim to oppose Trump so much seem so determined to get him re-elected? Things like the women’s march that occurred directly after his inauguration suggest that the left has not learned anything about the opposition, and is much more interested in sticking with their narrative then actually trying to learn something. My personal opinion is that Trump is paying them for early re-election support. But that’s just me. Take care. Oh and if you have a degree in psychology, you might want to think about a refund.

  • Bones

    Give your money to groups like Unbound or the Fred Hollows Foundation.

  • Bones

    Gehenna’s quite a nice and peaceful place

  • Bones

    Same sex marriage dude?

    I take it you support it.

  • Bones

    Seems you are wrong as usual.

  • Bones

    Actually he”s holding people accountable to their own standards.

    Bible believing conservatives who don’t believe the Bible.

    Like yourself.

  • Bones

    Oh you poor thing.

    Protest is part of our freedom of speech.

    Which you hate.

  • Bones

    Interesting comment from the one who avoids discussion because he can’t answer and is too scared.

    Are you threatened by Syrian refugees?

  • Andrew

    Getting someone’s event shutdown because you don’t like what they say violates THEIR freedom of speech (everyone has it by the way, not just you). You people are beyond parody. And you’re still wondering why Trump won.

  • Andrew

    No I do believe the Bible. It’s why I’m confused by people like the ones here who claim they do. Anyway Corey thinks that people aren’t followers of Jesus because they aren’t enthusiastic about an influx of refugees? Well Jesus said that to be his follower you needed to sell all of your possessions. I’m just asking for consistency on his part. I doubt it will come, but I’ll be waiting.

  • whollyfool

    Thank you, Ben.

  • Bones

    So you’re having issues with your own standard then.

    Can’t really help you with that then.

    Obviously jesus was talking to the trump fan club.

  • Bones

    Trumps shutting down anything that doesn’t fit in with his own ideology.

    Trump won because he lied and people like yourself bent over for him.

    Speaking of parodies…

    https://youtu.be/L-98RjrmqO4

  • Andrew

    Nope, no issues with my own standard. Seems as though Corey and many of the other folks here have trouble with their’s. Would explain all the cherry picking I see around here.

  • Bones

    BTW it’s funny that you American exceptionalism freaks think you can boss and screw other countries over.

    Heck you can’t even get mexico to pay for your wall.

    You’ll be paying for that every time you buy a taco.

  • Katherine Heasley

    He’s trying to weasel around it by banning refugees from Muslim-majority countries *with the exception of religious minorities*. It’s a de facto targeted ban on Muslims (except those from countries he has business dealings with).

  • Andrew

    Shutting things down? I haven’t noticed any of those those Trump protests being shut down. In fact I remember a few days ago progressives where cheering that there had been no arrests. Oh sure, Trump has made some changes in the government that progressives don’t like. But then again, wasn’t it just four years ago that a certain other president was saying that elections have consequences? And weren’t progressives cheering when that statement was made? Oh I see you found a clip from some comedian I’ve never heard of insulting Trump supporters. That’ll convince them to not vote Trump again! Good job!

  • Andrew

    “You’ll be paying for that every time you buy a taco.” Yawn if you SJW types get your way then us poor whities won’t be able to eat tacos in a few years. Cultural appropriation or something like that. Anyway, we’ll probably pay for the wall by taking the federal money dumped into sanctuary cities. At least I hope so, that way we can put up billboards there saying “You Built That!”

  • Bones

    Lol…enjoy paying for your new wall.

    You might be able to screw other Americans but you won’t screw the rest of the world.

    See how conservatives justify their messiah”s lies.

  • Andrew

    Messiah? No Jesus is the messiah of conservatives. We let progressives have that whole make politicians into gods thing. It must suck for them to. Just recently they were crying rivers of tears when their self proclaimed messiah had to leave office.

  • Bones

    That’s the thing about conservatives…they love f*cking with other people’s lives….

    Oh and conservatives doing what conservatives do in their culture of death….

    Shooting victim at Milo Yiannopoulos event wants ‘dialogue’ not charges
    Man who was shot in the stomach while protesting at a Seattle speech by rightwing provocateur wants ‘dialogue and a restorative justice’ instead

    The victim, whose attorney asked that he not be identified by name, was shot in the stomach while protesting at a speech by the rightwing provocateur at the University of Washington on Friday night. He remains in the hospital and has undergone multiple surgeries, his attorney, Sarah Lippek, said on Tuesday.

    The shooter was a Trump supporter who sent a Facebook message to Yiannopoulos asking for an autograph while waiting in line for the controversial event, according to the Seattle Times.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/25/shooting-milo-yiannopoulos-speech-seattle-charges

    The cops let him go.

    So he obviously wasn’t black.

    It would not surprise me to see the US slip into 1920s Germany the countries so rooted.

  • Olive

    What?

  • Bones

    Nah. Listen to yourselves.

    Trump will make America Great again.

    There’s your messiah. Conservative religion placing its faith in a man.

    Your messiah is a fascist and a liar….It has nothing to do with Jesus at all.

    Obama was no messiah, you fool. He may have seen to be a sane person after the insanity of the Bush years but he wasn’t. He set his agenda straight away by not jailing Wall Street who are now back in the White House ten years after f*cking the country up and being bailed out. And those who thought he was have seen how stupid people are to lift politicians up as the panacea of your problems.

    Obama was a right centrist neolib who deported more illegal immigrants than any other president and who still had huge support among the US as he left office. It does show how pathetic the other presidents around him have been like Bush and now, Trump.

    Hopefully Trump’s lies won’t be as bad as Bush’s.

    Though I highly doubt it.

    And from the first week any thinking person would have lost trust in a President desperate to make us disbelieve our own eyes and instead his own propaganda.

  • Bones

    To you, when Jesus talked about “who is your neighbour?”, he meant white US evangelicals didn’t he?

  • Iain Lovejoy

    Walls: Defending yourself against invading armies and bandits is slightly different, as is raising revenue through e.g. customs duties, and expulsions of e.g. the Jews from a country is precisely the mistreatment of strangers the Bible forbids.
    Your take on Matthew 25 (which to be fair to you is not your own but an ongoing Evangelical distorted to justify selfishness which you are repeating) is a complete distortion of the text. You make the point that the Son of Man says “these my brothers”: but who is he addressing? Verse 32 is clear: it says “all the nations shall be gathered before him”. When he says “these” my brothers he is referring to the people gathered before him, as there is no-one else to refer to. He refers to the entire of mankind – every nation of it – as his “brothers”. Matthew 25 is exactly apposite: when we refuse shelter to the least of any of any of the nations of the world we refuse Christ.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    “Did it mean that they were to have open immigration, all people should be allowed to have full citizenship in the nation? No, of course not”
    Leviticus 19:33-34:
    “When a foreigner lives with you in your land, you shall not oppress him: as a native among you shall the foreigner be to you who is living with you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were foreigners in the land of Egypt; I am the LORD your God.”

  • Jennny

    Well said, Dalaina. Here in Wales, some of us had filled thousands of shoeboxes for Op Christmas Child for years. We were horrified to learn tracts aimed at muslim children were put in the boxes and that the organisation took some persuading to admit it. Fortunately, there is a charity here which takes 30,000 boxes a year to Rumania. They are distributed appropriately and indiscriminately. Graham’s obscenely large salary is disgusting too.

  • gimpi1

    We have immigration laws, and we generally enforce them. When they aren’t enforced, it’s generally for capitalist reasons – businesses want a source of cheap, powerless labor.

    The whole idea that we have no restrictions on immigration is nonsense. We have some of the tightest restrictions in the world. We don’t have open borders. When illegal immigration is winked at, it’s due mostly to the desires of conservative businessmen. What here would you change?

  • gimpi1

    OK, I’ve read your thread all the way through… and while I sort of get what you’re saying, I think you miss the point.

    The “sell everything” quote was about becoming an apostle – a close friend and follower. The “depart from me” quote was about being cast out as totally unacceptable. So, yes, a perfect follower of Jesus would have few possessions and give away anything they had other than what they needed to meet their most basic needs, sort of like the vows of poverty in monastic life. However, the quote about the poor and immigrants isn’t about the perfect follower – it’s about the minimum standard. If you don’t do those basic things – welcome the refugee, aid the poor and the sick, visit and comfort the prisoner – you don’t cut the mustard. Two different standards, the gold standard and the bare minimum. Dr. Corey is writing about failing to do the minimum required.

    Now, I’m an outsider here, but that’s what I see the Scriptures quoted. Anyone else? Is this off the beam?

    As to your lurking here: Disagreement is fine. Learning other viewpoints is great. That’s why I lurk. But constantly bitching about the very viewpoint you are trying to understand won’t help anyone learn anything. One technique I use sometimes is paraphrasing what I think someone’s view are back to them, to see if I understood them. I often find out that I haven’t.

    Dr. Corey is almost always gracious. He’s one of the few Christians who actually took the time to explain what prayer is to me, and to describe how he prays. It may seem basic, but late in life (I’m turning 60 this year) I discovered that I didn’t know that. The word seems to have so many different definitions… My point is, if engaged honestly, he listens. He’s willing to explain his views and how he came to them. Can you consider a more positive engagement strategy?

  • gimpi1

    We don’t have anything like open immigration. We restrict immigration more than most other countries. ‘Open borders’ appears to be a straw-man argument, i.e. misrepresenting what someone has said, in order to attack that misrepresentation. Am I misunderstanding? What did you mean by ‘open borders?’

    When we tolerate illegal immigration, it’s most often because specific businesses want a pool of cheap, powerless labor. Agriculture is the most common, but meat-packing, chemical processing and fisheries are also culprits. To address it, we’d have to crack down on those businesses and their owners/operators. No one is seriously proposing that. How do you see that being done?

  • R/R 2016

    Could you answer my question?

    “Walls: Defending yourself against invading armies and bandits is slightly different…”

    Walls: Also for establishing boundaries and for the monitoring of commerce and people flow. Walls restrict entry and exits to designated locations with overwatch. In fact, as in the case of the Hadrian Wall and of the Roman limites, checkpoints were established and travelers were subject to customs searches and taxes from patrolling legionnaires.

    “When he says ‘these’ my brothers he is referring to the people gathered before him…”

    Very wrong. What is “clear” is that the inclusion of “brothers” and of “the least of these” is not universal. He is bringing the nations into judgment, and of those nations, not everyone is brought into the fold of his fellowship due to their poor treatment of the king’s “brothers”.

    In fact, back up to Matthew 24, and you’ll see that Jesus gives this parable to his disciples in private. That’s his audience. So, this could either be a warning about the conduct of their leadership, or it could be Jesus’ promise to right the wrongs they (his brothers?) suffer (starvation, thirst, imprisonment). Compare this language of suffering with that of Matthew 10, where Jesus warns the disciples of poor treatment suffered in his name.

    It’s called exegesis. Not selfishness.

  • R/R 2016

    Obviously. But only those with blue eyes.

  • Andrew

    “Obama was a right centrist neolib”
    Did you type that with a straight face. Obama was many things, but a right centrist was not one of them. Neither was Bush, and Trump most certainly isn’t either. Hell most conservatives (including yours truly) can barely stand Trump. It was the same people who voted for Obama twice that got Trump elected.
    “Trump will make America Great again”
    It seems that after eight years of Obama people were ready to listen to just about anything else, including someone who could just about match Obama in narcissism.
    “Obama was no messiah, you fool”
    Might want to mention that to a few of your progressive buddies. I remember them cheering when Obama said that he would make the oceans recede. No Jesus is the messiah for conservatives. Progressives put their faith in men.

  • Andrew

    This comment was perhaps the most incoherent thing that I’ve ever read, and in no way seems to follow from my previous post, but I’ll try and break it down a little.
    “That’s the thing about conservatives…they love f*cking with other people’s lives…”
    Yeah conservatives weren’t the ones who invented thirty different genders, and then started threatening to sue businesses for using the wrong pronouns. This seems like a case of projection on your part.
    “Oh and conservatives doing what conservatives do in their culture of death…”
    Um, guy who’s for abortion and progressives rioting, burning, and killing in the streets says what exactly? Again seems like your projecting here
    “It would not surprise me to see the U.S. slip into 1920s Germany the countries so rooted.”
    What exactly do you teach? It surely can’t be English or History. If I remember correctly from another thread, you were pretty bad at math. Based on some of your comments you also are not very knowledgeable in science. They must have social justice classes in Australia. Either that or just really low standards.

  • Andrew

    Actually if you continue on past what I quoted you’ll notice the man Jesus was talking to turned away because he was unwilling to sell his possessions. Jesus then commented that because of this it would be easier “for a camel to go through the eye of a needle” than for him to enter heaven (which drew the alarm of Jesus’s apostles). So you could argue that a lifestyle without possessions is also part of the “minimum standard.”
    However there is no “minimum standard” apart from believing that Jesus is the risen savior, and doing the best you can to follow him in a fallen world. Corey’s abuse of Jesus’s words to try and guilt trip those who disagree with him politically is not exactly what I call gracious. Neither is the way that he describes those who he disagrees with.
    “Can you consider a more positive engagement strategy?”
    I have attempted to reach out to Dr. Corey via email, specifically stating that all I want is a dialogue without rhetoric, insults, or emotions flaring at a fever pitch. I have not received a response, and at this point I don’t expect one, and frankly am starting to wonder if it was a waste of time to even try. The more I read Dr. Corey, the more he strikes me as being nothing more than the “other sides” Franklin Graham.

  • Bones

    No you’re the one who cherry picks.

    The Bible believer who disregards Jesus”s own words.

  • Bones

    I wouldn’t bother either.

    it’s not the first time you’ve posted your far right nonsense.

    Jesus here is addressing the Trumps of the world and people like you who support them.

    It’s quite ironic that you bring this up really..

    Maybe you need to go back to Sunday school because you have no idea of what jesus is about.

  • Andrew

    No that actually better describes Corey and most other “progressive Christians.” They love to quote Jesus when they think it supports their politics. When Jesus says something they don’t like they have about a dozen different explanations for why he really didn’t mean what he said.

  • Andrew

    Yep feeling that love and tolerance from the progressives. Let out the hate. Rather see you vent it on me than those poor kids that have to sit in your class.

  • Bones

    Lol…

    That describes you to a tea, dude.

    You’re trying to squirm out of it but that text is aimed squarely at your messiah, trump.

    But you’ll say jesus meant something else.

  • Bones

    Yeah that’s what I thought.

    That’s the whole screw everyone else mentality.

  • Bones

    Oh dear….

    This is the same Obama who bailed out wall street and the corporate crooks in 08.

    And Trump himself said Clinton was backed by wall street. Maybe you forgot about that one.

    Nah these were neoliberalism right centrists.

    The only leftist candidate was Sanders.

    Trump is just your good old fascist which conservatives love.

  • Andrew

    No I’m not squirming out of anything. Trump is not the messiah of conservatives, Jesus is. Progressives are usually the ones who proclaim men as saviors. They did in Russia during the communist revolution and in Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. I think this is more projection on your part. Are you upset that your messiah Obama couldn’t make the oceans recede? It must suck to know that he did such a bad job that he drove blue states that haven’t gone red since Reagen right into the arms of Trump. Maybe you’ll learn not to put so much faith in men.

  • Herm

    Andrew, do you say, “We should welcome refugees in order to avoid the wrath of God”?

  • Andrew

    Um no.

  • Herm

    Dr. Corey does feed the hungry, gives drink to the thirsty, invites in the stranger, clothes those who need clothing, looks after the sick, and visits the prisoner. What “standards” are missing from the opinions he expresses?

  • Herm

    Jesus the Christ did!

  • Andrew

    Yeah that’s known as crony capitalism. Let me see, government being to involved in the private sector, maybe I missed something but leftwingers are usually the ones who want more of that. Sander’s biggest complaint was that industry is outright nationalized. Yeah keep up this delusion that Obama and Bush are right centrists, it’s sure to help you down the road.
    “Trump is just your good old fascist”
    You lounge act is getting kind of stale there sweetheart. I don’t like Trump as much as the next guy, but the ‘Trump is a Fascist’ line is rapidly becoming the left’s version of ‘Obama’s a Muslim’

  • R/R 2016

    Exactly! More stating the obvious. Thank goodness Patheos has you for that.

  • Herm

    If you, Andrew, are the example of conservative then conservatives don’t know the Instructor. He does not teach to legislate anti-abortion, black and white gender, anti-civil contractual marriage for all consenting adults. In the New Testament it is He, the King in Matthew 25, who is the progressive and those who knew not what they were doing are the conservatives.

    Jesus the Messiah is the least of those we, as a nation, are refusing refuge.

  • Andrew

    I highly doubt he opens his home up to all of the needy around him. How many homeless people in Maine are currently living in his house? And since he so desperately says he wants to be Jesus’s follower, then why has he not sold his possessions?

  • Andrew

    Yeah no he didn’t

  • Andrew

    Then sell all of your possessions Herm, and give the money to the needy. Then you may pass judgement. Oh I also don’t think Jesus said anything about legislating a single payer health care system, a “living” wage, or free college tuition.

  • ashpenaz

    In my posts, I work to distinguish Jesus from the Antichrist. I believe conservative Christianity is Antichrist as described in John 1, and the treatment of refugees is one place where we can clearly see the fruit of Antichrist. Conservative Christians don’t want a nation which welcomes refugees–that goes against Jesus’ clear teaching; therefore, Antichrist.

    I don’t think progressives need to keep reaching out our hand to conservatives as if the hand is trying to make nice with the eye–we’re not part of the same body. Progressives need to start naming the Antichrist and invite people to come out of Babylon. Conservatives will end up in the place of torment while Lazarus sits with Abraham–and we need to witness to that reality.

    America under Trump has drunk the wine of the passion of her immorality.
    The kings of the earth were immoral with her, and the merchants of the
    earth have grown wealthy through the extravagance of her luxury.” Then I heard another voice from heaven say: “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins or contract any of her plagues. For her sins are piled up to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.…

  • otrotierra

    Wouldn’t it be something if U.S. White Evangelicals following Trump (81%) proved you wrong by living the teachings that Jesus actually taught? Let’s watch and see.

  • Herm

    You really don’t know his daughter(s) do you? Where in the hell do you get this sell all your possessions routine as a prerequisite to eternal life?

    There are only a few minimum attitudes you must have to live.

    Matthew 7:12, 22:37-40, Luke 10:25-37, 14:26, 27.

    Do these and you will live. You is your neighbor?

  • Herm

    Yes, He does say something “about legislating a single payer health care system, a “living” wage, or free college tuition”. It was first quoted in Matthew 22:37-40. Who is your neighbor?

  • Herm

    Andrew, how do you read this?

    “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

    “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

    “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

    “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

    “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

    “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

    “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

    Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

    Matthew 25:31-46 (NIV2011)

    The least of those we refuse are we refusing Jesus.

  • Gadz, but there will be so many Republicans there!

  • Herm

    Please, don’t say that so loud, they think they’re in heaven. It would be hell for all of us if they ever found out that they’re not.

  • You are The most Intolerant individual on this blog. Try looking harder at yourself. you won’t like what you see.

  • Completely agree. Bones is delusional at times. He has even been admonished by Ben Corey for his language.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    Are you saying you think that the point if the parable is Jesus is telling his disciples that everyone else will go to hell if they don’t serve his disciples? He is reassuring them that all those who have failed to serve them will get their just deserts? That it doesn’t actually give any moral instruction to Christians do these things at all, simply saying they should expect them as entitlements from everyone else?
    Quite apart from being completely at odds with Jesus’ entire teaching, it requires a complete scrambling of the text itself.
    The king says “these” my brothers. He must, grammatically, be referring to a group of people actually present in the sight of the righteous / sinners he is addressing. Nowhere in the story is the presence of a group of the king’s special “brothers” that he could be referring to. It says he comes with his angels, not some body of entitled uber-Christians everyone else was supposed to serve. If you take “these my brothers” to refer to the group of disciples Jesus is actually talking to it’s still nonsense: almost every single person of “all the nations” would fall into neither “sheep” nor “goat” since all bar a tiny handful would never in fact have ever come into contact with, or even been alive on the planet at the same time as Jesus’ “brothers”, if the people he was addressing were who he meant. There is no-one else he can be referring to except each and every one of our fellow men.

  • Herm

    Shock and Awe were our first bombs. We have been bombing in Iraq and Syria ever since, including today.

    Syria would not have blown up if we would have paid closer attention to their three year drought that Assad could not fix as a totalitarian government.

    All you have written above is from a self-serving perspective which is not an example of carrying your cross in the example of Christ.

  • BillyT

    If recent actions are any indicator, I believe we know the answer.

  • Herm

    The Good Muslim is my neighbor I love as myself!

  • Benjamin Holland

    These Strangers, in a foreign World,
    Protection asked of me —
    Befriend them, lest Yourself in Heaven
    Be found a Refugee —
    -Emily Dickinson

  • whollyfool

    +1000

  • Andrew

    My neighbor is whomever is around me whom I strive to love and care for however I can. This is in contrast to the attitude of progressives, who simply choose to hand off the command to love their neighbors to the government.

    Oh and Jesus actually did say something about legislating same sex marriage, Matthew 19: 4-6. See how fun this game is Herm.

  • Andrew

    “Liberals claim to want to give a fair hearing to other views, and then become shocked and offended when they learn that there are other views.”
    -William F. Buckley

    You probably won’t get anywhere by pointing it out. Best to just pray for him.

  • Andrew

    I get that prerequisite from Jesus Herm. It’s the same place you claim your getting your prerequisites.

    You mean to tell me that their is no more room in Corey’s house for the many who I’m sure are homeless around him? None? How much food does he throw away daily that could be given to the poor around him?

  • Andrew

    I read this as an attempt by you to abuse scripture to justify your political beliefs. Like I said, Corey is just the other side’s Franklin’s Graham, and you seem to be little different.

  • Herm

    “…who simply choose to hand off the command to love their neighbors to the government.”

    Do you mean a government of the people, by the people and for the people that holds these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness?

    As far as part two is concerned civil marriage is not religious marriage. Legislating civil marriage in a nation constitutionally compelled to freedom of religion is more apropos to, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.” Especially in a nation who allows you the freedom to pursue your religious convictions regarding marriage among your own. Why can’t you allow others with different religious convictions, who do no harm to you and yours, the same freedom?

  • Herm

    The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me.

    Matthew 26:11 (NIV2011)

    You don’t get those prerequisites if you think you are to be all things to all people at all times. The Spirit of truth leads us to where we can do the most good. The Spirit that, through his fruits, we can see in Benjamin L. Corey and cannot see in Andrew.

    The narrow gate (the eye of the needle) through to life eternal is the Holy Spirit and there is no other way.

  • Herm

    How do you read that scripture?

  • R/R 2016

    I’ve already told you what I think. If you cared about the grammar, you would see that “of these” modifies “brothers”. And if you actually cared about “Jesus’ entire teaching”, you’d see where he explicitly states who is and who is not his brother/sister:

    “For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother” (Matthew 12:50, NRSV).

    So no. Jesus does not, in fact, apply this title to “the entire of mankind”. Wrong again.

  • R/R 2016

    Another parable, another book, another audience. But perhaps we should all ask, who are the Good Samaritans in our lives? And how have we regarded them? Good post, Herm.

  • Herm

    What does this scripture say to you?

  • Herm

    … not “another” Spirit.

  • R/R 2016

    Agreed. Another good post, Herm.

  • DM

    So which nation will then be in Heaven? Let’s see here..How about North Korea? Iran? Saudi Arabia? Egypt? Somalia? Afghanistan? Sudan? Angola? Libya? Yemen? Ya getting it yet? — better stick with the homeless, fatherless, widows, & prisoners, vetting refugees from countries that want to harm us does not the list. Quoting scripture out of context…you better be careful…If any man shall add to…like.. “America under Trump”

  • I started reading this blog because I wanted to see what progressive Christians were all about. Over time I have seen that Ben’s views are not really Christian; they are just Ben’s views. He draws most of his views from his distaste for his earlier upbringing rather than from scripture.

    Along the way I decided to continue to read and answer some of the posts because the people on this blog deserve to hear other points of view. Ben certainly doesn’t need their slobbering approval.

  • Herm

    The nation of disciples who answer only to the authority of Christ, by any name but all of, with and in the same Holy Spirit, will inherit life eternal as children born of God, who is spirit only.

    you better be careful” for yourself that you understand that mankind placed those words at the end of the Bible they compiled, not God. The word of God is not the Bible but the one Teacher is the Word of God. The context of God and Their united will is summed up in Matthew 7:12 and 22:37-40 in context.

  • Ron McPherson

    Are you aware of the deep sacrifices he has made to rescue others? He has

  • R/R 2016

    LOL! No worries. By those standards, I’m in the same damned boat. :-P

  • That’s what I’m wondering. Is R/R trying to tell a lame joke or did we just run into a white supremacist?

    I have recently watched some remixes of a Nazi-punching video that delighted me greatly… (my favorite being an insert of Captain America for the puncher. Heh).

  • Jesus was a Jew, you know.

  • R/R 2016

    And a Nazarene at that!

  • R/R 2016

    If you’re really that dense (or just dishonest), I’m okay to leave you guessing.

  • R/R 2016

    Could you be more direct with your question?

  • GFY.

  • Tim Boone

    Ooops looks like you missed that one… behavior, not words

  • Ron McPherson

    It’s weird that the more it seems that Ben appeals to the teachings of Christ, the more he is accused that his views are not Christian.

  • ashpenaz

    Beware of false evangelicals. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.…

    The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, p@@@y grabbing, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, wall-building, 21and
    envy; drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I did
    before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom
    of God.…

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no Law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.…

    This is a trustworthy saying: If anyone aspires to be President, he desires a noble task. 2A leader, then, must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not dependent on wine, not violent but gentle, peaceable, and free of the love of money.…

  • Andrew

    He’s opened his home to all?

  • Andrew

    That as individuals we should strive to help those in the ways we can

  • Andrew

    And as far as his daughters go? Well I used to admire him on that front, but now I’m not so sure. The kind of person I suspect he is. It wouldn’t surprise if he adopted them out of some weird sense of white guilt. Like “hey guys look at me, I care so much that I adopted brown kids.” I’ve been hearing stories lately about some SJWs who take virtue signaling to that kind of extreme. At this point I’m not sure what to think on him.

  • Andrew

    Benjamin L Corey’s views are derived from his distaste of his own upbringing and the fact that he despises anyone who even slightly reminds him of himself before he became “formerly fundie”. Jesus and scripture are used whenever he thinks they can justify his viewpoints and outright dismissed whenever they might seem inconvenient. You may be lead by whatever you wish Herm, but it certainly doesn’t seem to be the Spirit of God leading you

  • Herm

    What is the natural consequence according to the Lord if they have the resources and they don’t help those in need.

    It is a pure cop out to use words like “strive” and “ways we can” as if you get to determine those ways. There is not one thing you have, including your temporal carnal life, that you have earned. There is not anything physical within your power to give that you will have that opportunity and privilege a century from now. Read the scripture again.

    What do you think carry your cross means?

  • Herm

    “… but it certainly doesn’t seem to be the Spirit of God leading you

    How, Andrew, would you know that? By your fruit you do not see, to know, to accept the Spirit of truth.

    You present a spiteful, judgmental and vindictive attitude more like the spirit of the teachers of the law and the Pharisees who murdered Christ in the name of God. You are not Christ like nor a clear sibling student of the Messiah.

    This is not my judgment. This would be clear to you if you actually read your Bible, even without the Advocate to guide you. You don’t, you spout only the talking points of the church of Man usurping the name of Christ but not the love of God boldly spoken by the flock of the only High Priest in His church, as does Dr. Benjamin L. Corey.

  • Herm

    That is really sick. You know that don’t you?

    Exactly what are your motives for this attack? By what spirit do you believe you are being led that makes you appear so ugly?

    Do you wish to get a rise out of Ben, is that it? Like, “hey guys look at me, I care so much for empowerment that I am willing to belittle by insult someone who actually does dedicate his life to extending the life of others”.

    I’ve pushed you too far. I didn’t really intend on uncovering this repugnant attitude so much the opposite extreme from love. All I wanted was for you to comprehend the truth as different from your alternative reality. Sorry, for you!

  • Ron McPherson

    All 8 billion people in the world?

  • Ron McPherson

    Wow, questioning a man’s motive for adoption (which actually calls into question the love for his own family) is kind of sick.

  • Bones

    Yeah that’s the sort of character this knob is.

  • Bones

    Apparently Trump”s business friends the Saudis are exempt.

    That’s pretty funny given their role in promoting terrorism.

  • Bones

    You got it.

    wikileaks has shown that the whole Syrian civil war was about destroying the hezbollah/Syrian/Iran alliance to help Israel out.

    The US is massively complicit in it.

  • Bones

    Won’t be the US given your hideous treatment of other countries.

  • Bones

    Seems to be mainly Israelis and Palestinians there at the moment.

  • Bones

    No problem.

    You people can be read like a book.

  • Bones

    That would be you Bob.

    You live in your own hate filled fantasy.

    Found Obama’s birth certificate yet.

  • “Feed the hungry. Clothe the naked. Visit the prisoner. Welcome the stranger.” You have proposed that these imperatives are said to be heave or hell issues: “I never once heard people focus on the one time Jesus actually warned people about what he considered heaven or hell issues.”

    “But they never, ever, ever seem to say, “We should welcome refugees in order to avoid the wrath of God.” You propose that “the stranger” is the same as “refugees.”
    While they may be in the same circumstance strangers encompasses a wider field of people.

    You did not differentiate between individual conduct and government’s conduct.
    I believe Jesus is talking to individuals. There are many ways for an individual to help strangers.. There are not many ways for an individual to move Government to do the same and even less to have Government physical harbor refugees. That requires political activism. But it can be done too.

    “But they never, ever, ever seem to say, “We should welcome refugees in order to avoid the wrath of God.” The point here is that as an individual you can do many things and be comfortable that you are following Christ’s command. There are far fewer things you can do to change Government policies that seem to be in opposition to His command.

  • Not really. Ben does not believe in the bible but only the teachings of Jesus. He believes he can interpret those teachings based on his background. I would suggest that those teachings are not of a private interpretation. There is a sobering responsibility for teaching. I am saying that Ben’s pedigree does not make his views biblical. And with each blog you can see how he departs from the bible into personal opinion.

  • Herm

    … or even of our hideous treatment to this day of those native to this nation.

  • Then there was this meme on Facebook:
    Theological Liberal Executive Order:

    Henceforth, Hell has been reinstated.

    Anyone who takes away the hope of the poor, hurts widows and orphans, refuses hospitality to strangers, strips care from the sick, and turns back refugees at their borders will sent to spend eternity with other notorious sinners and evildoers.

    This order has the full backing of Matthew 25:31-46 and is in immediate effect.

  • Ron McPherson

    “Ben does not believe in the Bible but only the teachings of Jesus.”

    Uh….lol

  • Bones

    Amazing how all of a sudden jesus isn’t talking about government like Bob thought he was talking obout the satanobamahitler.

    Jesus doesn’t talk to governments unless it’s to do with gays and abortions.

  • Bones

    Apparently Bob doesn’t believe in the teachings of jesus neither does he interpret them.

    Well done.

  • Bones

    Well the fundamentalists did kill Jesus. .
    It’s no wonder they hate him.

  • Olive

    Sorry, not a question. More of an exclamation. I’m just kind of flabbergasted at the idea that Jesus might be talking about only select people as his brothers and sisters–and that you find it unlikely that anyone feels differently. We are just very far-afield on this one.

    That’s cool. You do you. But in that case, I don’t think we are believers of the same Christ (…Which makes me a goat, maybe?) Either way, love to you, my brother.

  • Lord_of_Light

    Today, when I heard the National Anthem; I heard it as a lament. “And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave”. There has been nothing brave about our government and its treatment of the weakest and most vulnerable citizens of the world. It is a reaction of the craven to unfounded visceral fears of those who don’t fit the mold of this new America Donald Trump and his cronies are building. Shall we soon hear the word ubermensch soon in the American vocabulary?

  • Iain Lovejoy

    How exactly are Ben’s views “not really Christian”? Obviously you think some of them are wrong, as do I in some cases and as do a fair few of those who regularly comment (so where “slobbering approval” comes from I don’t know), but even where I disagree I can’t think of any occasion where Ben’s views have not actually been Christian.

  • RonnyTX

    Shadsie to R/R 2016:
    What about those Christians who consider all humanity their brethren? (Doesn’t matter if they’re “Biblically right or wrong” in your eyes) – in their eyes, it’s potentially everyone?

    I’m a pretty useless person, myself – but I guess I’m in the clear on the “visiting prisoners” bit, at least. I spent a few years visiting someone in prison and that guy was *literally* my brother, by my parents. Personally, I think I would have been a better person if I were visiting random people to make their lives better rather than just practicing nepotism.

    Ronny to Shadsie:
    I am one of those Christians, who considers every person my brother or sister, a member of the family of God/Jesus Christ. :-) And one day, each person, from Adam on down, will know that. And we will all be spending eternity together! :-) A good webpage on this, is tentmaker.org.

  • R/R 2016

    Jesus already answers that:

    “For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother” (Matthew 12:50, NRSV).

    Jesus is Lord. Let us do his will. If your love for me is genuine, thank you.

  • I’ll give you the most recent one.

    “Jesus didn’t come to die– he came to show us how to live.” In fact the sacrifice of Jesus was agreed to by the Father and the Word before the foundation of the earth, Rev. 13:8.

    Without Jesus’ sacrifice, death and resurrection you have no hope of resurrection no matter how you live your life.

  • Adopted four kids from orphanages overseas, two with significant special needs, worked several years as a pastor and resettlement liaison for my local refugee population.. and did it without pay, always giving what money they insisted I be given right back to them? Got audited by the IRS because I gave too high a percentage of my money away and they didn’t believe me? I’m honestly not sure what more some people want from me. But I do know that when I stand before God he’s going to know how much I gave of myself, of my finances, of my abilities. Like I said in a previous post– if I go to hell there will be plenty of good reasons for it, but this line of reasoning isn’t one of them.

  • Ron McPherson

    God bless you Ben. The reason I can’t stay away from your blog is because it forces me out of the theological paradigm I was in. I had God in a box. I believe some often get angry at those who preach the hard sayings of Jesus because it doesn’t fit neatly into the comfortable brand of American Christianity we’re used to. So we can react largely in one of three ways: ignore it and remain in blissful ignorance; or get angry and lash out in fear because it endangers my doctrine; or consider its validity and be open to God perhaps conforming me more towards the way of Jesus and away from a religious system

  • Herm

    BULLSHIT!

    You wrote, “Without Jesus’ sacrifice, death and resurrection you have no hope of resurrection no matter how you live your life.

    That is worth cow dung to God! Don’t you get it? That is what the teachers of the law and the Pharisees taught. It is the logic of mankind that believes all things must be earned by a price paid. It is the same that today’s teachers of the law and Pharisees teach in their church, but is not taught in Jesus’ church. I know this because I was one, trained and certified as were the teachers of the law and the Pharisees, but now have no more authority than a student of the Teacher in me.

    We have earned nothing that God has not already given us. We have been given everything as all little helpless children are. There is no more expected of us but attitude.

    There is only one way for resurrection which Jesus exemplified by the attitude with which He accepted and carried His cross. None who do not carry their cross exemplifying the same spirit of conviction within will live. Jesus showed us the Way and gave us an Advocate to carry us through the trial. Before Jesus there was no Spirit of truth available to be with and in each of us as we open our hearts and minds to see, accept and know. I once proudly shined the spirit of Saul who placed heretics on their cross. Today I am the heretic carrying my own cross Christ like. Today the Spirit who blinded Saul that Paul might see is with and in me without pause.

    That is the only authority I have to tell you that it is you that is wrong and not Benjamin L. Corey. Jesus did show us how to live. There is no special incantation or ritual of offering beyond the attitude of love by which any of us will “inherit” eternal life.

    If those who crucified Jesus recognized the Dove within Him as of God could they have murdered Him on the cross of despicable criminals and heretics in God’s name? Would Jesus have been forced to get on himself to pay for our resurrection with a sacrificial ritual of death? The sin of mankind that allowed the killing of Jesus by the counsel of the reigning church authorities was that they refused to see to accept God that was with and in Christ. That sin prevails in the churches today who try to emulate Jesus’ church but only succeed in becoming the church of Caiaphas. Jesus’ church worships God only in the Spirit with no physical trappings.

    This is so important and yet you, Bob Shiloh, take it upon yourself to blindly teach Jesus to us rather than to learn from Jesus as we do in the Spirit of truth. What are your credentials of authority to do so beyond what you have learned in the “christian” church? Really, this is no game!

  • Olive

    I see your point and allow that it is a reasonable conclusion to draw . I think we will probably just disagree on this one, but I can’t see Jesus condoning legalism or loopholes. He uses grand language in his instruction–kind of His trademark style. So I just don’t see him imposing legalistic restrictions on who we should love. I’m curious where you land on His command to, “Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you.” Luke 6:27

    I also oppose the idea that there is something special about a believer that is inherent in their status as a “believer”. I think there are Christians who love their religion and their culture and their idea of the person of Jesus, and who feel that they are saved because they’re in the club. End of story, that’s all, they’re saved, that’s all that matters.

    But a relationship with Jesus Christ necessarily results in action. I believe He tells us how we should be not so that we can have a checklist of Christian To-dos, but to let us know what our actions will look like when we give up our selves to walk with Him. Faith in Him is not membership, it is a constant and demanding participation in the spirit. Therefore I reject the idea that believer-status could be a requirement for love or good-treatment.

  • Herm

    Olive, I sense both you and R/R 2016 are in the Spirit of truth. Understand, please, that my authority to even reach out here is founded only upon my growing student knowledge, as versus a hypothetical “just maybe” belief, of my kinship in mankind and my infant status as a sibling of Christ Jesus born of God.

    In the Bible Jesus is quoted as referring to himself as a Son of Man much more often than as a Son of God. Jesus never denies either relationship in the Bible even after His baptism of the Dove to begin His ministry. For those who are children of God in the Spirit of truth today on earth, by Jesus example are we not, also, still brothers and sisters of mankind? As far as the parental authority we follow as siblings, serving only one master, Jesus’ very clearly says we have only one Father, only one Teacher and only one Instructor.

    All of humanity are my carnal brethren who I love as Jesus does, particularly so my good neighbor as myself. All of God I love with all my spirit (heart, soul, strength, mind). The life I inherit is not of Man but of God who is spirit, not physical. All that is physical is temporal. All that is spiritual is eternal. The difference is that the dead who were once made alive in the spirit image of God know nothing.

    The spirit of love we give to our carnal siblings, good and evil, is shown by the cross we carry for them all by the authority of the will of our Father of spirit in heaven, not by the traditions taught by the authority of our parents of blood on earth.

    I hope this makes some sense for you to pursue. You both are right there and sincere in the truth. Love you both!

  • Herm
  • ashpenaz

    So this man, his wife, and his newborn child arrive at the US border riding a donkey. “We’re here because we’re being hunted by a dictator who wants to kill our baby.” Trump says, “Well, you can’t come here–you might be terrorists.”

  • Nixon is Lord

    for anyone who believes the words of Jesus are true and authoritative.-But what about if you don’t? How are you going to emotionally manipulate people into doing what you want them to then?
    Genuflect more? Another liturgy?

  • Nixon is Lord

    Wow-a rhetorical question AND a Nazi quote!

  • Nixon is Lord

    But suppose there’s no heaven/it’s easy if you try/no hell below us/above us only sky!

  • Nixon is Lord

    I want an America that’s grown up enough to determine its population needs without Bronze Age ravings.
    How about a Moment of Science?

  • Nixon is Lord

    I’m sending you a gold-plated whip; enjoy your self-flagellation. Please leave me out of your moral posturing-at my tax-subsidized expense.
    i

  • Nixon is Lord

    But how else can you threaten anyone with someone/something that’s invisible and inaudible?
    The Fundiegelicals and the “progressives” both have to shout louder and louder for anyone to even hear what they say. Pathetic.

  • Nixon is Lord

    Clearly “Progressives” are as self-righteous and pathetic as the Fundiegelicals.

  • Nixon is Lord

    Anywhere without the goofy and Mennonite bearded.

  • Benjamin Holland

    Many people have made the compelling case that, if this life is all we have, that is all the more reason to love others with abandon. I cant imagine anything more dismal than living a life of fear and protectionism and letting the weak among us suffer and die and then lie down in our graves and cease to be. Why the hell not make the blip of accidental consciousness in this universe be something at least worthy of the great religions it spun up?

  • otrotierra

    That’s the reply from Trump and his White Evangelical followers (81%). And it tells us all we need to know about their theology.

  • Olive

    Thank you, Herm. And r/r. Love you, too.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    So when you say “Christian” you mean someone with exactly your particular theological views?
    The way you read Revelation 13:8 isn’t even the unanimous translation of the verse itself (many translators attach “from the foundation of the world” to the writing, not the slaying of the lamb, which would make more sense since Jesus wasn’t slain at the beginning of the world at all) let alone the only Christian understanding of the verse.
    I am not sure what understanding if the atonement you have, but Christians have had numerous different understandings of it over history. If (as I suspect) your particular take is penal substitution you need to know that this did not exist as a theory among Christians at all until the Reformation, and its Catholic ancestor, the satisfaction theory, did not exist before the 11th Century when it was invented by St Anselm. Since penal substitution is held neither by the Catholic church, nor Eastern Orthodox, nor a pretty substantial chunk of the various protestant churches either, it is probably a minority view amongst Christians. The moral example theory of the atonement which Ben refers to is quite common among a fair few denominations, and is not an invention of Ben’s.
    Have a care when accusing people of not being Christian: some of the things you believe may be open to the same charge by others.

  • Ron McPherson

    If you hate it so much I’m curious as to why you would voluntarily subject yourself to it here?

  • Herm,

    Your first through fifth paragraphs are not on point. You said, ” It is the logic of mankind that believes all things must be earned by a price paid. I said exactly the opposite, ” no matter how you live your life.” You seem to be discussing Grace not why Christ had to die. You said, “That is worth cow dung to God! Don’t you get it? That is what the teachers of the law and the Pharisees taught. No, you don’t get it at all. The Pharisees did not believe Jesus was the Son of God. You must be confused.

    Paul said he preached Christ crucified.I Cor. 1:23
    Christ’s sacrifice is the pivotal event in God’s plan to save humanity. Jesus foretold the fact that He would be “lifted up” in crucifixion so that “whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. John said, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:14-16).

    Paul said, “For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:” (1 Corinthians 5:7).

    Hebrews 9:12 tells us . . . not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.”

    You said, “This is so important and yet you, Bob Shiloh, take it upon yourself to blindly teach Jesus to us rather than to learn from Jesus as we do in the Spirit of truth.”
    Who is We? I said nothing but what the scripture said. You don’t believe in the scriptures and that’s your opinion. Without the scriptures you would not know what Jesus said or did.

    You said, ” What are your credentials of authority to do so beyond what you have learned in the “christian” church? My credentials of authority are irrelevant in this point as I am just quoting scripture. I believe in the bible as written both Old and New Testament.You are just emoting about your special relationship with the Spirit of God. You do not even know the nature of the Spirit.

  • In short summary, a Christian is someone who responds to God’s calling, repents of his sins, is baptized, receives God’s Holy Spirit and lives as Jesus lived. I do not need to be in a man led group with others who share a man’s view to feel secure.

    As to Rev. 13:8 I’ll stick with the King James Bible:
    And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    If it is true that The Moral Theory of the atonement has considerable support in the more liberal wings of Christianity, then that explains the need to diminish scripture.

    “If (as I suspect) your particular take is penal substitution you need to know that this did not exist as a theory among Christians at all until the Reformation.” My views predate the reformation by a few thousand years.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    What are they, then?

  • My views are spelled out in the many comments I have made to Ben’s blogs.

  • Herm

    I rest my case! The Bible is not the living and available word of God. The Bible has no authority according to the Bible. Jesus has all authority over heaven and on earth according to the Bible. Jesus is available only through the Spirit of truth according to the Bible. You are no more and less of a teacher, instructor, authority, counselor, judge, executioner and/or student of the Messiah than Caiaphas, Pontius Pilate or Saul all according to the Bible.

    I boldly claim to know the Spirit exactly as is in the Bible so how can you, who admits he does does not see the Spirit, say that I “do not even know the nature of the Spirit“?

    Quit arguing about what you do not know. Go to the Source humbly asking that you too can become a student of the Teacher today. If you cannot then the Bible compiled 1,692 years ago is totally wrong and God is dead.

    According to the Bible if I am blaspheming the Holy Spirit by telling you with certainty that He exists today, exactly as Jesus is quoted to have said in the Bible, then I am committing an unforgivable sin according to the Bible. If you teach contrarily that the Holy Spirit does not exist, exactly as Jesus is quoted to have said He does, then one of us is speaking irreverently about God. One of us is not speaking the truth. There is no alternative truth.

    This is testimony directly out of your Bible, which was not in existence when this occurred:

    After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

    Acts 4:31 (NIV2011)

    I testify to you right this moment that I am most certainly speaking the word of God boldly as I am filled with the Holy Spirit. amen

  • R/R 2016

    “So I just don’t see him imposing legalistic restrictions on who we should love.”

    (1) Where have I suggested anything like that?

    “I’m curious where you land on His command to, ‘Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you.’ Luke 6:27”

    (2) There is a distinction to be made between one’s stranger, one’s neighbor, one’s enemy, and one’s brother. It seems that some have circumscribed all these terms within the bounds of a single notion without due exegetical diligence.

    “I also oppose the idea that there is something special about a believer that is inherent in their status as a ‘believer’.”

    (3) The church, as the believing collective, is presented in Scripture as the body and bride of the returning Christ. That’s pretty special. Besides, cultures have a right to self-constitution.

    “But a relationship with Jesus Christ necessarily results in action.”

    (4) Exactly. We are challenged to behave as Christ in our day-to-day and to take upon ourselves his example of meekness and self-sacrifice. Christian morality isn’t about merely having the right opinions.

  • R/R 2016

    This link takes me to the article above. It’s just a page refresh for me. Is there something I’m missing?

  • Social responsibility and activism is not the sole responsibility of Progressive Christians. This article was addressing the hypocrisy of the Religious Right. There is usually some sort of social concept of fairness within all social groups and countries, including America. I’m not quite sure what your point is as genuflection and liturgy are not a means of addressing social ills. Oh, wait, you were being sarcastic. You meant to say that social problems would go away if we’d just drop the whole “religion thing,” as if religion causes all of society’s problems. Dang God! He just spoils everything doesn’t He?

  • Herm

    It should take you to the reply I made to Olive just below this. Since I mentioned your name I thought it appropriate that you too read what I said. I tried it and the link takes me to that comment.

  • Way to punt, Bob! Good deflection of social responsibility!

  • Trump is proving to be just as divisive among Evangelicals as he is in America. Watch, I think we will see some major soul-searching for Evangelicals come out of the next 4 years. The Fundie side (Falwell, Piper, Grudem, Franklin Graham) will further harden their stance (they have a lot at stake in keeping the Culture wars going), but a large percentage I think will change a great deal of their thinking about social interaction. I’m already seeing some serious concern being voiced in CT magazine, and of course, Fuller Seminary.

  • Clearly you do not understand satire.

  • Herm

    And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

    Revelation 13:4-10 (KJV)

    Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    John 4:22-24 (KJV)

  • Ah, gewaite, I see you keep jockeying for attention. Please accept my “air-hug!” See, isn’t that better now?

  • Ye Gods! Someone’s been peeking through Corey’s back window, reading his emails and practicing reading his thoughts! It is scary how much you know about the man’s personal life! You’re not CIA, are you?

  • As individuals, how do we help these refugees/foreigners if the government (that Evangelicals helped put in power) blocks them from entry? Do we shrug our shoulders and say, “oh well?” I am confused by your division of governmental responsibility and personal responsibility in this regard. It seems your dependence on government responsibility excuses you from personal responsibility. Also confused by the insistence that Corey sell all his possessions. Are you saying Franklin Graham and Jerry, Jr. have no right to preach? That John Piper is a hypocrite for writing all those books and preaching those sermons when he owns a nice home and car? That Evangelicals can’t effectively engage society until they sell all they have? Just curious.

  • The bible is the word of God:

    For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
    Hebrews 4:12

    He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
    Luke 11:28

    Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
    Matthew 7:24

    Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
    Matthew 24:35

    Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”
    Matthew 4:4

  • You do not know the nature of God at all. You have a very confused and convoluted picture of the Spirit.

  • The bible is as relevant today as the day it was written.

  • I fear what you are filled with is not the Spirit of God but a different Spirit. Examine yourself!

  • Please advise what action I should take to measure up to your definition of “social responsibility.”

  • As I have said you do not know the nature of God. You do not know who the Word was and who Jesus is. You do not understand the Spirit is the power of God. Confused for sure.

  • Olive

    Again, In don’t expect that we’re going to find common ground on this, but I think that what you would describe as exegetical diligence I would call missing the forest for the trees on the love issue. But I respect your thorough commitment to the scripture.

  • R/R 2016

    “All of humanity are my carnal brethren who I love as Jesus does…”

    Can’t say I believe you, Herm. Love is patient, and I see in your comments unequal patience. Love is kind, and I see in your comments unequal kindness. Love does not behave rudely…

    You get the point.

    Let’s go to the *original* context for love thy neighbor:

    You shall not render an unjust judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great: with justice you shall judge your neighbor. You shall not go around as a slanderer among your people, and you shall not profit by the blood of your neighbor: I am the Lord.

    You shall not hate in your heart anyone of your kin; you shall reprove your neighbor, or you will incur guilt yourself. You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against any of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord (Leviticus 19:15-19, NRSV).

    Emphasis mine. These are not independent thoughts. Loving your neighbor is doing all of the above, which also was written, as you rightfully suggested in our previous exchange, of not “another” Spirit.

    Love is difficult, demands much, and has a unique Christian definition. I find anyone’s claim to universal love quite dubious if that person can’t disagree on some bogus blog forum without speaking with contempt.

  • R/R 2016

    Right on, Olive. Much love and respect. Your tone is a welcome break from the norm. Have a good week.

  • I wonder why my comment was deleted. It was a sarcastic joke. I was channeling a bit from an episode of South Park because R/R was starting to give me Cartman-vibes.

    I apologize to anyone but him if I accidentally offended.

    (I’m not even a fan of South Park, I’ve just seen a few episodes).

  • Bob, please don’t worry about it. If the plight of refugee families doesn’t meet your definition of the stranger or the foreigner in our midst then no one here is going to convince you otherwise. The government’s job is clearly to make you feel safe and comfy. Those others, well that’s their problem for being born in that area of the world. God blesses those who help themselves. America first. Let’s make America great again!

  • Nixon is Lord

    No, I was making fun of the “mainline” who somehow think their nonsense superior to the fantasy invisible friends of the Fundiegelicals.
    But thank you for playing.

  • Nixon is Lord

    Really? Name them. Because if they can make this case without religious threats and pretending that someone invisible and all-powerful will punish those they disagree with, why bother with churches/religion?

  • Nixon is Lord

    Why do people go to zoos?

  • Nixon is Lord

    Celebrate your diversity!

  • Nixon is Lord

    The intellectual sloth of religious people makes anyone blush.
    It’s all nonsense, it’s all made up, it’s all a waste of time, talent and trouble. And a tax scam to boot.

  • Nixon is Lord

    F*ck you-why should I “follow Christ”?
    And if I don’t follow this “Christ”, why should anything you say have any worth?

  • Ron McPherson

    It’s a great way to get 10,000 steps in on Fitbit. Plus I like to watch the otters. They seem so happy

  • Benjamin Holland

    I would suggest you simply engage with a decent introduction to modern ethics. You can find arguments for strong ethical behavior apart from the threat of divine punishment in almost every moral philosopher of the last several hundred years. From Kant and the other thinkers of the enlightenment, who based ethical insights in empirical and introspective knowledge, to the utilitarian tradition of Mill and his followers, to German and French phenomenology and it’s various tributaries, such as Emmanuel Levinas, and even the more recent post-modern atheists, such as Zizek or Alain Badiou. There are actually very few ethics texts of the modern period, from religious or non-religious authors, that have founded ethical imperatives in the fear of some divine threat. Most philosophers would regard that kind of fear-driven motivation as pretty close to the basest and least respectable, and likely simply immoral, behavior. Short of actually studying the question you raise, even about five minutes on wikipedia would have sufficiently answered your question, with all due respect. Also, I hesitate to even engage you on this issue. Look at the sentence you’ve posted. It doesn’t even contain a complete thought: “If they can make this case… …why bother with churches/religion.” If they *can* make that case, then it doesn’t make any sense to ask, “why bother with churches/religion?” Because in that situation, they can make that case! What exactly are you doing trolling around here?

  • Kirk, I fear you are like most liberals. Always mad about something. Always looking for a cause to push. Just exactly what are you going to do about the Syrian refugees? What help can you provide. I’d love to know. Most liberals are all talk and no action.

  • Herm

    The cross that disciples of Christ must pick up is love for those children of Man who know not what they do.

  • Herm

    Thank you for your time! Does your time have value?

  • Iain Lovejoy

    Thanks for the unhelpful answer, but, having checked,it appears you are a “penal substitution” fan, and as I said, there is no trace of anyone holding that that view prior to the Reformation.

  • The Catholics predated the Reformation by 1500 years. Obviously you have never attended a Catholic Mass even for a funeral. Catholics hold that view. Your research is faulty.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    I shall leave you to your “alternative facts”

  • Lain,

    Ok. You hold that typical Liberal View: If the facts don’t agree with my feelings then they are not facts. But the the Catholic Catechism defies your research as well.

    “He died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures”

    601 The Scriptures had foretold this divine plan of salvation through the putting to death of “the righteous one, my Servant” as a mystery of universal redemption, that is, as the ransom that would free men from the slavery of sin.397 Citing a confession of faith that he himself had “received”, St. Paul professes that “Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures.”398 In particular Jesus’ redemptive death fulfills Isaiah’s prophecy of the suffering Servant.399 Indeed Jesus himself explained the meaning of his life and death in the light of God’s suffering Servant.400 After his Resurrection he gave this interpretation of the Scriptures to the disciples at Emmaus, and then to the apostles.401

  • Iain Lovejoy

    Good. That is compatible with both the”ransom” theory of the atonement and the “satisfaction” theory, the former being one of the theories of atonement from the beginning of the Church, the latter dating from the 11th Century and St Anselm. It makes no reference to penal substitution, because the Catholic church doesn’t believe in it.
    Look up “theories of atonement” on Wikipedia and save yourself some time.

  • gimpi1

    Thank you for following up. I would have gotten back to you sooner, but I spent the weekend dealing with a nasty stomach flu:-( I’m still a bit wobbly, so if what I try to say doesn’t make sense, blame the bug…

    I just don’t see Dr.Corey’s blogs as an attack or a guilt-trip .I see him as explaining his viewpoint. Perhaps this is because, as an outsider to your faith, I don’t see it as a polar-monolith, with ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ sides.

    I haven’t seen name calling on the part of Dr. Corey. I do see rhetoric, but I don’t know how to discuss controversial stuff without it. Ditto with emotion, these are often emotional issues. What would be a good dialog in your view? How would you like to see these differences framed.

    I have seen nastiness it on the part of his commentators, but that’s sadly just the price of admission on the internet. Personally, I prefer a blog where comments largely run free than one where they aren’t allowed or rigidly policed for conformity. Many conservative Christian blogs either don’t allow comments at all, or police anyone who disagrees, even civil, respectful disagreement. I find that frustrating, when I can’t ask questions or offer differing views without being bounced. It seems so brittle…

    I frankly do see a bit of hypocrisy in people who profess great Christian faith, yet condemn or attack immigrants as dangerous, poor people as lazy and prisoners as deserving misery. From what I know of the message of Jesus, that’s not it. However, again, I’m both an outsider and somewhat of a newcomer, so I understand that there’s a great deal that I don’t understand.

    Thanks for your follow-up on the parable. I’m not ignoring it, I’m just not following it very well. At this point I blame the bug. (I had to take two ‘run to the bathroom breaks’ just writing this response,so I’m not as recovered as I thought.) When my brain and digestive tract are working better, I’ll come back to it and see if I can sort it out and follow up.

  • Lain,
    What some Protestant ministers called the Death of Jesus 1500 years after the fact is really just misguided scholarly opinion.

    It is clear to most from the bible that God the father sent the Word who became Jesus His son to die for our sins so we could have reconciliation with God.

    If you believe that Jesus’ death was not required you are in the small minority. Even the Catholics got that one right.

  • Ron McPherson

    Bob,
    To be fair, the ransom theory is not the same as penal substitution. Iain is correct. The penal substitution theory is of the reformed tradition.

  • JD

    Bob, if you want to say that Christ was only talking to individuals, fine. Guess who makes up “government”? Government is simply an institution that is operated by individual people, many of who claim to be Christian. So, fine, He wasn’t talking to “governments”, but He absolutely was talking to His followers that may find themselves working for the government. We, as Christians, don’t get to put Christ’s teachings on the back-burner so we can carry out the antichrist policies of government. It doesn’t work that way.

    So, sure, say that government can make these restrictions all you want. We, as followers of Christ though, have an obligation to stand and speak against them. We certainly shouldn’t be endorsing them. It seems like Christians act as though they found a loophole to be exclusionary and led by fear…..just have government do it then scream Romans 13.

    As a side note, this is also a great example as to why many early church leaders not only condemned government service, but if that service required violence, would remove believers from the fellowship if they continued to perform in that role.

  • Guy Norred

    Overall I agree with you but even with an Antichrist (or a follower of such), I believe we should love and pray for them (which may be what you are getting at in inviting people to come our of Babylon). Part of loving someone is accepting the reality of where they are and what they believe about themself. Of course it is very important to point out the bad fruit of their theology.

  • Guy Norred

    Well, to be fair, he isn’t dependent on wine (unless one counts the fact that he sells it). One out of 11 isn’t bad, is it? :-)

  • Guy Norred

    Good to know. I (think?) I told you once that it was my father’s time at Fuller that saw the beginnings of his fundamentalism (at least as I observed it). He also carried a lot of baggage that fed that and I think often found comfort in a veneer of hardness. Inside though he had a capacity for empathy I have never known in another person. When he was at his best, I think there was a great ambivalence in his convictions. God did reach him in crisis moments and I wonder what he would make of things today if he were still with us.

  • Guy Norred

    When evil is fought with evil, evil is always the winner.

  • Guy Norred

    You aren’t a fan of South Park?!?! Now I AM offended. ;-) I didn’t see your deleted comment, but have to admit, I am curious.

  • Noah

    From Ben:

    ‘Adopted four kids from orphanages overseas, two with significant special needs, worked several years as a pastor and resettlement liaison for my local refugee population.. and did it without pay, always giving what money they insisted I be given right back to them? Got audited by the IRS because I gave too high a percentage of my money away and they didn’t believe me? I’m honestly not sure what more some people want from me. But I do know that when I stand before God he’s going to know how much I gave of myself, of my finances, of my abilities. Like I said in a previous post– if I go to hell there will be plenty of good reasons for it, but this line of reasoning isn’t one of them.’

    I’m going out on a limb and guess that his household is not wasting much food.

    Your critique is somewhat ironic considering how similar of a beef it is for him for those who loudly proclaim themselves pro-life.

  • Guy Norred

    Are you John?

  • Guy Norred

    1. is rather beautifully stated. I don’t think I have heard of these polls happening recently, but I remember 15-20 years ago, pretty much any time there was an election, there would be exit polls asking people if their vote was dictated by morality. I was never asked myself, but hearing of these things always really irritated me. The assumption was always that if one’s vote was about morality, that meant that one was voting for the conservative Christian platform. Why in the world did they think I was voting the way I was voting?

  • Iain Lovejoy

    I don’t believe Jesus’ death was not required: none of the various views of the atonement (Ben’s “moral example” included) say that it was not required. What is in dispute is why in fact it was required.
    Whatever the various different emphases, whether it was because without the example of his death and demostration of his love we would never repent and/or because his death broke sin and death’s grip on us, or his death wooed us back from sin, or gave us power to overcome it, or a mix of these, for the first 1100 years of Christianity’s history the pretty much unanimous understanding was that Christ’s life and teaching, death and resurrection (and not just his death) transforms us and enabled us to escape from our sin and turn (however imperfectly) to God.
    St Anselm turned this understanding around. He said that by contrast the problem was not that we would or could not repent but that God could or would not freely forgive us, and only Jesus’ death was a sufficiently meritorious act of penance to enable God to do so. The Catholic church permits both this and the earlier view. The Eastern Orthodox Church rejected this view.
    Later some (but not all) Protestant churches later adapted the satisfaction theory, but changed it so that instead of Jesus’ death being a sufficiently meritorious act of penance to counteract our sin, he took the actual punishment for our sin on himself instead. This latter view is the “penal substitution” view which you apparently erroneously think is somehow the original one. As I have said, it most definitely isn’t, and while Ben’s “moral example” theory is a rather stripped down, minimilist version it is certainly much closer to the Church’s original theological position than yours is, so you definitely don’t get to say he isn’t a Christian for holding it.

  • R/R 2016

    A timely fortune cookie to crack in this new age of cheap protest. Thanks, Guy.

  • R/R 2016

    “…who know not what they do.”

    Sure is a lot of that. Don’t expect anyone to take your word, Herm. Love costs.

  • R/R 2016

    You mean folks ’round here are literate enough to read a “sarcastic joke”, but not literate enough to get it? The irony.

  • Herm

    It cost God! My word is infinitely less taken but those words spoken by the Christ, just before He gave up the Ghost, were not accepted either. There is only one Spirit of truth that we may know for certain what we do.

  • Bob, Conservative Christians want their cake and eat it too. On the one hand they bemoan that America is no longer a Christian nation, that we need prayer in schools. They want legislation to allow Christians to discriminate against Gays. They want women and doctors punished for abortions because they believe the Bible tells them it’s murder. They’ve attempted to keep atheists and gays from teaching and politics. They eschew feminism in favor of male dominance. So I think your comment about always looking for a cause to push very ironic.
    But then they have a chance to show true Christian charity and they freeze up. They choose to support “me first.” My safety, my comfort zone. Conservative Christians are too bound up in limiting choices and freedoms for others. Too afraid of those that don’t look like them. I’m just one guy, and alone I don’t necessarily make a big difference. But I speak up on social media, I blog, I come here and at work to confront bigotry and xenophobia. Fear and bigotry are spread by ordinary people through conversation and social media. I may be one voice but together with millions of other voices we can make a difference.

  • Slam dunk!

  • Sorry to hear about your father’s experience. Fuller had a broad (some critics would say too broad) range of students, from Liberal to Fundamentalist, although most fundamentalists would go for Liberty University or Dallas Theological Seminary where “they believe in the Bible.” I did get flak from some fundies for playing Dungeons and Dragons while I was there. For me it was simply a game to release stress from studies, of them it was a gateway to hell. Overall, though, Fuller represented to me a coming together of Baptists, Presbyterians, Pentecostals, Lutherns, Congregational, Episcopal, the way the body of Christ should behave.

  • Something was said about Jesus only loving people with blue eyes, so I said I was in trouble because I have green eyes, so I guess I was “going to Hell with all the gingers.”

    One of the few episodes I’ve seen was the one where Cartman proclaimed gingers not to have souls. (I did not mean anything serious against gingers).

  • Bones

    Lo, l tell us about the dictator obama now that Trump is doing his best impression of Kim jung IL.

  • Matthew

    O.K. … I have heard it said by many conservative Christians in America that the issue isn´t not wanting to help the least of those, but rather not wanting government to meddle in the affairs of Christian charity. It should be an individual or local church endeavor they say.

    If that´s the case, then maybe Bob Shiloh isn´t against the refugees (for example) and assisting them, but simply against the government getting involved in the process? I can´t speak for Bob Shiloh, but I would like to hear his thoughts on this.

    It´s seems that Bob Shiloh is arguing that Dr. Corey´s interpretation of the specific passages regarding service to neighbor and stranger are incorrect. Maybe Bob Shiloh shouldn´t be criticized for shaking off his social responsibilty, but rather be more engaged regarding his interpretation compared to that of Dr. Corey and others about how, where, when, and why to welcome the stranger and serve neighbor.

  • Matthew

    I think living an ethical life simply because of fear of eternal judgement is something some religions can be criticized for teaching, but I don´t think Christianity at its core is about this.

    Yes … Christian ethics is an important part of the believers faith experience, but personally I don´t think it´s the central point of Christianity nor do I think it merely stands alone. Christianity is a subtle, deep, and mysterious mix of ethics and the salvific — cross and praxis — forgiveness and forging ahead — faith and works — Sermon on the Mount and eternal life.

    The faithful attempt to live ethically as the Spirit empowers us to because we want to please our Saviour and show thanks for what he has done for us … not because of fear of what might happen if we “slip up”.

    Admittedly I´m not sure if my comment even remotely reflects what you were attempting to share with us Benjamin Holland, but your comment got me thinking about this topic in this way and I simply had to share. Thanks for your thoughts as well.

  • Kirk, yes many people want prayer back in schools, in public and in general let alone Christians. Christians do not want legislation to discriminate against gays they objected to legislation changing the very definition of marriage. Schools hire teachers and women have rights in this country and other God fearing countries.

    But Liberal politicians pushed the envelope on those issues and now you have President Trump who will stop most of the insanity like PC, discrimination against conservatives from the IRS, controlling our open borders, and start making our healthcare work again. You can now see the wide array of forces marshaled against the president but it will be to no avail.

    The issue of the moment as I watch the most watched cable news network in the world, Fox News, is refugees. Your comment about Christians not liking people who don’t look like them is pure Liberal propaganda. This country has the biggest heart and biggest purse for charity in the world. Most of that charity is from Christian churches whom you disdain. I have many customers who are engaged in charitable works like feeding people in third world countries, arranging for adoptions of children abandoned by their drug induced parents and finding jobs for abused women. Tell them that Christians have freezed up and don’t care about them. As I said, Liberals are all talk and no action.

  • Fred Eloff

    Christian stupidity at its finest. You would also argue that Jesus implied we should bare our collective necks to the machete of the conquering army of Islam, when He said to turn the other cheek, right? Jesus spoke in parables and riddles so only those meant to understand would do so, not everyone. You don’t understand.

  • Bones

    Bob Shiloh is a moron.

  • Bones

    Liberals are why you have civil rights….

    Wanker. …

    It’s weird that you want schools praying to Allah.

  • Matthew

    Is he beyond civil dialogue do you think?

  • R/R 2016

    …those words spoken by the Christ, just before He gave up the Ghost…

    When he prayed to the Father for the benefit of his transgressors. Great point, Herm.

  • Herm

    Thank you R/R 2016. … and our heavenly Father did!

    Something is bothering me with your previous, “Don’t expect anyone to take your word, Herm.

    I thought one of the things I have been most consistent on, even when childish and inept at delivery, is that it is not my “word” that has any importance here. I will one day physically die to this world and I have no expectation or desire to be remembered, period. I am one of maybe millions or more who knows the Word. This word through the Spirit of truth:

    After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

    Acts 4:31 (NIV2011)

    The Bible is useless to any who are disciples (students) of modern day teachers of the law, Sadducee or Pharisees who do not see, to know, to accept the Spirit of truth spoken of in John 4:23-24, 14:15-21, 15:26-27, 16:12-15, Ephesians 1:11-14, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, and 1 John 4 which I believe you alluded to earlier.

    My words are prompted by Him in an image from my Instructor within my expressive heart (spirit of emotions) and mind (spirit of reasoning) to be shared without any promise of reward. My overwhelming need to share is my cup overflowing with the love of God in the Spirit of truth.

    I am not a messenger of doom standing on my soapbox on the street corner. I am simply one who, thanks to the efforts of Ben to make this venue possible, is saying this I know for real, as much as anyone can know the relationship of their family for real. Please, because I love you, even when you might crucify me, go to Them (Father, Son and Holy Spirit you know of from the Bible as one united God) to humbly and honestly challenge that They show you as they have shown me.

    I am old in sun years and want no more out of this life than to share this spirit life in God, and God in me, with those who might want the same if they only knew. Anyone who reads this, don’t accept my word for anything but do accept the word of God spoken for all who desire to hear.

  • R/R 2016

    To reprove is not to crucify. It’s become apparent that we have disagreements that are too fundamental to be overcome in a world of avatars and user names. Now we see in a mirror dimly. Try not to take Ben and his “venue” too seriously.

    In any case, I’ve enjoyed this exchange. Blessings and peace, Herm.

  • RonnyTX

    GuyN to Ashpenaz
    Overall I agree with you but even with an Antichrist (or a follower of such), I believe we should love and pray for them (which may be what you are getting at in inviting people to come our of Babylon). Part of loving someone is accepting the reality of where they are and what they believe about themself. Of course it is very important to point out the bad fruit of their theology.

    Ronny to GuyN:
    Amen Guy, amen! :-) For we are to love and care about all people, even while at one and the same time, we can hate somethings they do, that hurt others!

  • seanchaiology

    But you do…

  • Guy Norred

    LOVE that episode. Not quite as good as “The List” of the one where Butters has a “kissing” business but… :-)

  • Nixon is Lord

    Celebrate your diversity!

  • Ron McPherson

    Oops. I suppose the early Christians didn’t get your memo

  • Nixon is Lord

    He he he, I see what you did there.

  • Ron McPherson

    “Christians do not want legislation to discriminate against gays they objected to legislation changing the very definition of marriage.”

    Can you clarify the distinction?

  • Guy Norred

    And Methodists (which my father was still when he was there though he left soon after) ;-) But yes–the way the body of Christ should behave. You and Dr. Corey are the only people I have had any interaction to speak of with from Fuller besides my father and the two of you have opened my eyes to the bitterness I think I held toward the place and the people associated with it. I am sorry for that and sorry for if I ever let it back in. I also think that things might have been different for my father if he didn’t have all that baggage (which very few people knew anything about and I don’t know if anyone, including my mother, really understood fully). I know his intentions were good and honorable. I think watching him and seeing what could be done to the mind of someone with his heart has helped me to at least want to search for the good in the hearts of others when I don’t always see it. Of course I don’t always succeed nor do I always remember to try. But anyway, we learn from our own foibles and challenges sometimes, and sometimes we learn from others. I am reasonably sure that my coming out to him was a crisis for him through which he was coming to a new place in God.

  • Herm

    Oh, we do, thank you!

  • Herm

    Jesus the Messiah was much too “Liberal” to be a member of your “Christians”.

  • Nixon is Lord

    In a Mainline Church? With barely 5% non-White membership?
    How’s that working out for you? And even that lily-white membership is shrinking away faster than the polar ice caps.

  • Bones

    Yes.

  • Guy Norred

    Actually, yes, if it were to come to that. Would you prefer the conquering army of Christendom? That has been tried but it never brought about the Kingdom of God. It is antithetical to God’s kingdom and is anything but spreading good news.

    (edited for punctuation)

  • Guy Norred

    They are refugees. By definition, they are in need of a refuge. Until we allow them a place to go, no help we give is of much value.

  • Guy Norred

    The popular conception (outside of Christianity and within a large part of it) of the Gospel is that we can be saved from what otherwise is a certainty–an eternity of greater pain than anyone has experienced in this life–by giving ourselves to Jesus (the meaning of which is greatly debated of course, but not the point at the moment). The typical image of an evangelist is someone telling all about how awful it will be in hell. If this message resonates even slightly with one’s motives, then one’s actions are anything but selfless. All of that said, I do not find any of this in Jesus. The Gospel isn’t that God will overlook how awful you are if you just hide in His son, but that He already loves you more than you can imagine. I agree we do right not out of fear, but I think at base what we have been given with the knowledge of God’s love is the freedom to love as we have been loved–simply because we have no need to do anything else.

  • Bob, you wrote, “This country has the biggest heart and biggest purse for charity in the world.”

    Are you sure about that?

    I’ve repeatedly read that when it comes to helping the impoverished, the hurting, the needy of the world, that Americans rank way down the percentage scale compared other humans.

    When I was outreach leader for our church, too, very few of our many members were concerned with acts such as “feeding people in third world countries.”

    It’s not that Christians don’t care, but unless a starving person is near them, they don’t act. They are unconsciously focused on their own lives. Most of them aren’t self-centered like Trump claims–U.S. first, U.S. first, U.S. first…

    Heck, in the U.S., not only don’t most Christians give to “feeding people in third world countries,”
    such Christians don’t even tithe for their own churches.

    Allegedly, only about 3% or so give 10% of their income to their own church.

    If I find the accurate statistics on American Christians giving to the impoverished compared to other peoples, I will edit this.

    EDIT: CHECK THIS:”Americans are less likely than people in other countries to donate money to help others, according to a new global survey of 135 countries.

    In terms of giving money to charity, the U.S. population was ranked 13th, with 62 percent of Americans reporting having made a financial donation in the previous month.”

    [And this doesn’t separate giving to local charities versus giving to the impoverished in other countries.]

    In fact, the World Giving Index 2013 found that the United States did not even make the top 10 for giving to charity.

    It did better when it came to two other charitable behaviors: It snagged the top spot for helping a stranger in need of assistance (at 77 percent), and it ranked third for volunteering (at 45 percent).

    The survey, conducted last year, ranked countries based on the percentage of people who said they had engaged in certain charitable behaviors during the previous month.

    In terms of giving money to charity, the U.S. population was ranked 13th, with 62 percent of Americans reporting having made a financial donation in the previous month.”
    https://www.philanthropy.com/article/Americans-Rank-13th-in/153965

  • Certainly. The Court conferred the right to a marriage license and all the civil benefits that goes with it on same sex couples.

    A same sex wedding may be performed and call for the blessing of God on that union. That spiritual marriage is the question. The majority still believe that “marriage” is the union of one man and one women before God. The same sex couples want the word marriage to erase the “stigma” of their union. Unfortunately for same sex couples that blessing cannot be legislated, nor earned. Only God can change offer that blessing and He has not ordained same sex marriage.

  • Cute. But irrelevant…

  • Thanks Daniel.

  • Herm

    Not so in my church!

  • Ron McPherson

    Sounds like discrimination to me

  • Herm

    No, Bob, your “Christians” are irrelevant to the Spirit of truth.

  • Herm

    Bob, wake up, if there is a “call for the blessing of God on that union” why can’t you let God handle the response? The majority called for the crucifixion of Jesus the King of the Jews in God’s name. Are not you and yours doing the same, usurping the name and authority of God to suit your lynch mob mentality?

  • Guy Norred

    I know many couples who had been married for decades. What the court (and some legislatures) conferred was the same governmental recognition of that marriage that almost any heterosexual couple can take for granted, nothing else. The courts and the legislatures certainly do not speak for God’s blessing, but that was never the question. You are still completely entitled as an private individual to not recognize these marriages though you may, depending on your profession or specific municipal or other governmental location (since discrimination laws vary heavily around the country), be called upon to set aside your private reservations when in the public sphere.

  • Guy Norred

    Nor mine. Actually, I was looking around the other day and thinking about the fact that my church is more diverse racially than the neighborhood outside its doors (which is my neighborhood). Maybe we need to start evangelizing the whites? ;-)

  • I was asked for my opinion on the word marriage. I gave it. I am far from alone.

  • Thanks. Are you sure that same sex couples do not want their marriage recognized civilly and spiritually just like heterosexual couples? If they only wanted the license and the civil benefits its confers why insist on the word “marriage.” If their union was called anything but a marriage then we would not have had the reaction we did. Don’t you agree?

  • Herm

    None of the crowd persuaded by the chief priests and the elders were “far from alone“. Why is it you let your chief priests and elders persuade you to determine whether God blesses any same sex couples’ marriage or not? Are they not innocent of any crime relative to the Decalogue, Matthew 7:12 and 22:37-40 (ALL the law and the prophets)?

    While Pilate was sitting on the judge’s seat, his wife sent him this message: “Don’t have anything to do with that innocent man, for I have suffered a great deal today in a dream because of him.”

    But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and to have Jesus executed.

    “Which of the two do you want me to release to you?” asked the governor.

    “Barabbas,” they answered.

    “What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called the Messiah?” Pilate asked.

    They all answered, “Crucify him!”

    “Why? What crime has he committed?” asked Pilate.

    But they shouted all the louder, “Crucify him!”

    When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “It is your responsibility!”

    All the people answered, “His blood is on us and on our children!”

    Then he released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

    Matthew 27:19-26 (NIV2011)

  • Herm

    Bob, because “marriage” is not a sacred word outside of your religion in a nation free to be religious or not.

  • Guy Norred

    Of course we want those things, don’t you? I didn’t accidentally get married in church, nor was it a whim when we invited the most important people in our lives to be there. Sure it would be nice if you didn’t feel that your marriage to Mrs. Shiloh was somehow more worthy of respect than ours. For that matter it would have been nice if my own mother or sister felt they could respect the occasion enough to at least send back the RSVP cards saying they weren’t coming. These are enumerated in thousands of laws. It is much simpler to allow couples the dignity of the legal label than it would be to rewrite all of that legislation. Don’t you agree? Besides, before Windsor overturned the applicable parts of the Public Law 104-199 it was impossible for any other word to be used. Whether you called our marriages by the word before or after they became legal is your issue. You obviously aren’t calling them that now. So be it. They are functionally the same as any other marriage. They have been called marriages or at least acknowledged as the same thing even when their parties felt the sting of shaming to even dream of a day when the word would be theirs.

  • Snooterpoot

    “…self proclaimed messiah…”

    Prove that. When and where did President Obama proclaim himself as a or the messiah?

    Don’t tell me to look it up myself. You made a statement as fact; the burden of proof is on you.

  • Snooterpoot

    My guess is that you weren’t alive during the war in Vietnam to see how massive resistance, stated in large marches and gatherings, turned the public from supporting the war to despising it.

    Events like the Women’s March can change things. I’ve seen it happen. The right has unleashed a mighty beast. I know my single voice won’t be heard, but when I combine that voice with 500,000 others then my voice becomes a roar.

    Expect more of this. It won’t take long before people see what a horrible mistake they made.

  • Bones

    Now we have the “I want government to take away your civil rights because I’m a bigoted merkin” argument.

  • Bones

    “What did liberals do that was so offensive to the Republican party? I’ll tell you what they did. Liberals got women the right to vote. Liberals got African-Americans the right to vote. Liberals created social security and lifted millions of elderly people out of poverty. Liberals ended segregation. Liberals passed the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, Liberals created Medicare. Liberals passed the Clean Air Act, and the Clean Water Act. What did Conservatives do? They opposed every one of those programs. Every one. ”

  • Matthew

    Thanks Guy Norred.

  • Matthew

    Thanks. His kindness is what leads to repentance is something maybe many conservative evangelicals have forgotten.

  • Herm

    Jesus spoke in parables and riddles so only those meant to understand would do so, not everyone.

    Who told you this? Was it possibly those who told you that they understood what you could not? That is not true. You can understand for yourself if you, in honest and sincere humility, seek God’s counsel, ask in challenge for a straight answer and knock on heaven’s narrow gate, all by way of the Spirit of truth.

    There, isn’t that good news that God wants to, can and will speak to you directly if you only open your spiritual eyes and ears (heart and mind made in you in God’s image) to see to accept Him and thereby Them, Father and Son? That wasn’t so stupid after all.

  • Jeff Marzano

    I can think of at least one other place in the New Testament where Christ said people would never be forgiven for their sins:

    Matthew 12:32

    Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

  • Jeff Marzano

    The Book Of Revelation also gives us a list of the damned:

    Revelation 21:8

    But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

  • Bones

    It must be annoying for you that it ain’t gonna happen.

    Fundy Christians are really lovers of snuff movies.

    They get their kicks off thinking about people they don’t like burning alive.

  • Bones

    I doubt you even understand it.

  • I spent ten minutes reviewing the data online about charitable giving. Your characterization is skewed.

    1.1 The World Giving Index Top 20
    The United States is ranked first in this year’s World Giving Index (Table 1), reclaiming a position it
    previously held in 2011. Its score of 61% is the highest on record.

    Trying to interpret the data as the USA is not giving as it should is just a typical Liberal slander:

    “I’ve repeatedly read that when it comes to helping the impoverished, the hurting, the needy of the world, that Americans rank way down the percentage scale compared other humans.”

    “EDIT: CHECK THIS:”Americans are less likely than people in other countries to donate money to help others, according to a new global survey of 135 countries.”

    “In fact, the World Giving Index 2013 found that the United States did not even make the top 10 for giving to charity.”

    Why spend energy trying to denigrate your country? It is self defeating.

  • “What is in dispute is why in fact it was required.”

    “Whatever the various different emphases, whether it was because without the example of his death and demostration of his love we would never repent and/or because his death broke sin and death’s grip on us, or his death wooed us back from sin, or gave us power to overcome it…”

    The statement above demonstrates lack of understanding of the purpose of Christ’s death. People living before His death (in the billions) never knew him and were not nor could be influenced. His death did not break sin and death’s grip on us. All men are appointed to die once and all men have and will continue to die. Sin’s grip on man never stops. But, when called, repented and converted man can resist Satan’s pull with God’s spirit. Christ’s death gave us the ability to have a direct relationship with the Father without any middleman. God’s spirit conferred at Baptism gives us the power to resist sin.

    Ben has many non-christian views. When one refuses to accept the Old Testament as the word of God, as Ben does, then it affects everything in your belief structure. Further, by laying on a pacifist filter on the New Testament Ben will never understand the bible as written; just his personal view of it.

  • The latest from Ben on the bible, “That’s a ridiculously truncated version of the literature found in the Bible, but here’s the point: none of it is fairy tale, even if parts of it include myths or legends that are scientifically impossible or historically false.” Hard to miss his belief structure.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    The statement is a statement of what Christians in fact believed for the first 11 centuries of Christianity. OK you think they were wrong and that your particular branch of Protestantism now knows better, but on what basis are you saying those who believed this were not Christian?

  • Bones

    Obviously you don’t understand the Bible at all.

    As if I’d be worried about being called out by a complete and utter charlatan.

  • Bones

    Sounds honest.

    Unlike your lies.

  • Bones

    You’re a moron.

  • i am saying that Christians for 1100 years did not believe, “Whatever the various different emphases, whether it was because without the example of his death and demostration of his love we would never repent and/or because his death broke sin and death’s grip on us, or his death wooed us back from sin, or gave us power to overcome it, or a mix of these, for the first 1100 years of Christianity’s history the pretty much unanimous understanding was that Christ’s life and teaching, death and resurrection (and not just his death) transforms us and enabled us to escape from our sin and turn (however imperfectly) to God.” as I explained in the previous post.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    If you are saying that, you are simply wrong.

  • ?
    Please re-read your statement: “”This country has the biggest heart and biggest purse for charity in the world.”

    Then look again at the World Giving Index–

    “Table 5 Top 10 Countries by participation in donating money:
    1 Myanmar
    2 Indonesia
    3 Australia
    4 Malta
    5 New Zealand
    6 Iceland
    7 United Kingdom
    8 Norway
    9 Netherlands
    19 Ireland

    “2.2 Donating money to a charity
    2.2.1 Top 10 countries for donating money, by participation and population

    “Table 5 shows the ten highest ranked countries in terms of the percentage of people who donated money
    to charity in the last month, and

    “Table 6 shows the countries with the largest actual number of people
    donating money to charity.

    [Notice, that percentage-wise (table 5), the U.S. isn’t in the top 10, but is in the number of people (table 6), because we have a larger population as does India, as does China.]

    “For the fourth year running, Myanmar tops the participation table, with 91% of people having donated
    money (equating to 35.6 million individuals).
    Norway appears in the Top 10 for donating money for the first time this year with a score of 67%, a
    seven percentage point increase on last year. Iceland enjoys its highest ranking yet, coming in sixth place,
    although its score (70%) remains unchanged since the last time it was interviewed in 2013.
    A 24 percentage point drop in score sees Thailand, which was in second place last year, drop out of the
    Top 10 for the first time since the World Giving Index was launched. It now ranks twelfth.
    Canada also drops just outside of the Top 10 for participating in donating money, and now ranks in
    eleventh place due to a slight decline of two percentage points.
    Ireland moves down the rankings again this year – although it sees only a one percentage point decline in
    score, this has resulted in it dropping from eighth to tenth place.
    In terms of the actual numbers of individuals, the countries comprising the Top 10 remain largely the
    same as reported last year with the exception of the inclusion of Brazil and Iran moving out of the Top 10
    as a result of a six percentage point drop.
    Germany has moved up the rankings from ninth place last year, to sixth place this year – an increase of
    6.5 million people.
    India’s modest two percentage point increase in those participating in donating money translates to 16.8
    million extra people participating in this activity. In contrast, China’s modest decrease of two percentage
    points sees a reduction of almost 26 million people donating money in the month prior to interview.
    With a population of 39 million, Myanmar is the least populous country to appear in any of the Top Tens
    for the number of people participating.

    Top 10 countries by the number of people donating money:

    1. India
    2. USA
    3. Indonesia
    4. China
    5. Brazil
    6. Germany
    7. Pakistan
    8. United Kingdom
    9. Myanmar
    10. Thailand

    Notice, that percentage-wise, the U.S. isn’t in the top 10, but only in the number of people, because we have a larger population as does India, as does China.

    Also, as far as I can tell (I downloaded the whole file) this index isn’t dealing with giving to the needy of other countries but only records any sort of charity, including local giving in the U.S.

  • RonnyTX

    GuyN to Matthew:
    The popular conception (outside of Christianity and within a large part of it) of the Gospel is that we can be saved from what otherwise is a certainty–an eternity of greater pain than anyone has experienced in this life–by giving ourselves to Jesus (the meaning of which is greatly debated of course, but not the point at the moment). The typical image of an evangelist is someone telling all about how awful it will be in hell. If this message resonates even slightly with one’s motives, then one’s actions are anything but selfless. All of that said, I do not find any of this in Jesus. The Gospel isn’t that God will overlook how awful you are if you just hide in His son, but that He already loves you more than you can imagine. I agree we do right not out of fear, but I think at base what we have been given with the knowledge of God’s love is the freedom to love as we have been loved–simply because we have no need to do anything else.

    Ronny to Guy:
    Amen Guy, amen! :-) And what so many don’t understand yet, is just how greatly God/Jesus Christ loves them; but there is coming the day, when everyone from Adam on down, will know that! :-) And then, we will all be spending eternity together! :-)

  • RonnyTX

    Matthew to GuyN:
    Thanks. His kindness is what leads to repentance is something maybe many conservative evangelicals have forgotten.

    Ronny to Matthew:
    Oh so true Matthew, so very, very true! :-)

  • Herm

    Bob Shiloh wrote:

    Ben has many non-christian views. When one refuses to accept the Old Testament as the word of God, as Ben does, then it affects everything in your belief structure.

    Jesus said:

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

    Matthew 5:38-42 (NIV2011)

    The Lord God said:

    But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

    Exodus 21:23-25 (NIV2011)

    “ ‘Anyone who takes the life of a human being is to be put to death. Anyone who takes the life of someone’s animal must make restitution—life for life. Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury. Whoever kills an animal must make restitution, but whoever kills a human being is to be put to death. You are to have the same law for the foreigner and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.’ ”

    Leviticus 24:17-22 (NIV2011)

    Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

    Deuteronomy 19:21 (NIV2011)

    Jesus said:

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

    Matthew 5:38-42 (NIV2011)
    The Lord God said:

    Do not seek a treaty of friendship with them as long as you live.

    Deuteronomy 23:6 (NIV2011)

    David said:

    Do I not hate those who hate you, LORD, and abhor those who are in rebellion against you? I have nothing but hatred for them; I count them my enemies.

    Psalm 139:21-22 (NIV2011)

    Herm posts the question:

    Did Jesus accept the Old Testament as the word of God?

  • Bones

    Hey we’re number 3.

    Aussie aussie aussie oi oi oi.

    Of course secular little aussie is more compassionate than you yanks.

  • Bones

    Actually Bob loves trump.

    He’s still looking for Obama’s birth certificate.

    You’re a moron.

  • Bones

    Hey idiot, check your history

    Republicans were liberal once eg Martin Luther King was a republican and declared a communist. Nixon was fairly liberal as well.

    Noam Chomsky: Richard Nixon Was ‘Last Liberal President’

    http://m.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/noam-chomsky-richard-nixon_n_4832847

    Your Republican party has been taken over by far right conservative lunatics.

  • CAF World Giving Index 2016
    Myanmar tops the CAF World Giving Index for the third year running, followed by USA and Australia.

    World giving index score (average of previous columns)
    SOURCE: CAF
    Australia Australasia 70% 38% 64% 57%
    New Zealand Australasia 68% 41% 63% 57%
    Ireland W&S Europe 72% 35% 60% 56%
    Canada North America 64% 35% 68% 56%
    Switzerland W&S Europe 71% 34% 60% 55%
    United States North America 60% 39% 65% 55%

    The USA, New Zealand and Canada have the highest rate of charitable donations as a percentage gross domestic product (GDP), the Charities Aid Foundation (CAF) found.

    Your position is not sound. I will stay with my initial gut assessment. The USA has the biggest heart and purse for giving in the world.

  • Bones

    Your hatred of liberals is noted…

    If by a “Liberal” they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people-their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights and their civil liberties-someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a “Liberal”, then I’m proud to say I’m a “Liberal.
    John F. Kennedy

  • per Forbes:

    Who Gives The Most?
    “Americans give more to charity, per capita and as a percentage of gross domestic product, than the citizens of other nations.”

    “Volunteerism also complicates the picture. The Comparative Nonprofit Sector Project at the Johns Hopkins Center for Civil Society Studies compiled a ranking of private philanthropy in 36 countries from 1995 to 2002. Based on giving alone, the U.S. comes first, giving 1.85% of GDP, followed by Israel at 1.34% and Canada at 1.17%. But based on volunteerism alone, the Netherlands comes first, followed by Sweden and then the U.S.”

  • Bones

    Let me give you a definition of the word ‘liberal.’…Franklin D. Roosevelt once said…It is a wonderful definition, and I agree with him. ‘A liberal is a man who wants to build bridges over the chasms that separate humanity from a better life.’ – Richard Nixon

    Nixon would be too liberal even for Democrats who are a right centrist party.

  • Bones

    I’m bigger than trump.

    You should see the size of my….hands.

  • Bones

    You sound like a liberal to me.

    Don’t tell anyone else that.

    Liberals are bad nowadays

  • Bones

    Hating liberals is the new vibe.

    Well not new….

    Liberals were hated in 1930s Europe as well.

  • Yes. He did. He quoted from the Old Testament many times. And Jesus quoted from 24 different Old Testament books. Some shown below. The first one is a very pointed answer to your question.

    Compare: But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’” (Matthew 4: 4, NKJV, c.f. Luke 4:4 against (Deuteronomy 8:3) And note the irony of the quote. h of God.’” (Matthew 4: 4, NKJV, c.f. Luke 4:4)”So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the LORD.”

    Matthew 4:7; cf. Luke 4:12) and Deuteronomy 6:16

    Matthew 4:10 and Deuteronomy 6:13

    Matthew 5:21 and Exodus 20:13

    Matthew 21:42 and Psalm 118:22

  • Bones

    So what?

    I quote from the Old Testament too.

    Doesn’t mean I think it’s inspired or factual.

  • Bones

    Lol milo

    http://i.imgur.com/y9P22h4.jpg

    Someone grab me a tissue.

    This anti pc nonsense is just about wanting to lie about others.

    The alt right isn’t fringe anymore.

    They’re in the white house if you haven’t noticed and doing a great job at trampling over the rights of others which is sort of the issue.

    As for conservatives not being able to speak seems like people demonstrating their constitutional right to protest.

    Which some people don’t like.

  • Hmm.. it shows that various studies are strongly disagreeing then. Forbes and CNP are very different than WGI and from previous accounts that I read about in the past.

    Also the Forbes site seems to be speaking about giving in general, not specifically to the needy. See this: Forbes: “It would be nice to believe that as a group they [Americans] are just more generous. Of course, it’s more complicated than that.

    “For instance in the U.S., which is notably religious among wealthy Western nations, about a third of all charitable giving goes to houses of worship. Some of that money, in turn, goes to projects that have an obvious benefit to the needy, like soup kitchens. But some does not, rather going toward paying the church secretary and the rent.”
    http://www.forbes.com/2008/12/24/america-philanthropy-income-oped-cx_ee_1226eaves.html#

    So it’s all very complicated.
    But hanks for getting these studies for me. I need to revise my view.

    As I recall, one of the bases for my previous view was a book by Evangelical Christian professors written years ago, Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger. Evidently, that books’ studies are way out of date.

    As for “volunteerism” I wasn’t speaking about that or even giving locally, but whether or not Americans give financially more money to other impoverished people in other countries.

    Thanks for the correction.

  • Bones

    Yeah they’re pissed off. Like Vietnam.

    And they probably have a right to be and there’s a few professional anarchists in that mob which look like the same as the Occupy movement.

    Btw it’s well known Democrats were conservative….certainly not liberal nor leftists….

    Wtf happened to the party of Lincoln and King that they became a party of arsholes.

  • Guthrum

    The American people see what is happening in Europe, where terrorists have used the open borders and the refugees to go into countries and attack, where it happened yet again in Paris. The leaders of Germany and other European nations are desperately trying to get the terrorists out and raise the borders and checkpoints. Europe is under attack.
    Trump is following the Obama plan of 2009. This activist judge is putting the whole country at risk. The American people support strong background checks and other security measures. We are still at war against terrorists.
    We are in the end times.

  • Bones

    Europe isn’t under attack.

    That’s alt right fantasy.

    let’s not forget that it’s you pricks who created this tidal wave of humanity onto the surrounding countries and beyond.

    Actually most of the terrorists aren’t refugees and are homegrown.

    A bit like your right wing nut bags.

    No we’re not in the end times unless our politicians totally ignore climate change.

  • Bones

    Did liberals like nazis?

    Wtf is Bork?

    Actually regan would probably fit in as a Democrat given the dem’s kept his neoliberalism going.

    Nixon would be publicly crucified for lifting the minimum wage and supporting low income families.

  • Bones

    Karma…

    Trump voters family deported

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oX2J8E4MjJk

    it’s ok love the libs will fight for your family. Your trump friends couldn’t care if they were dead or not.

  • Bones

    Just to confuse you more the conservatives in my country are called the Liberal Party.

  • Bones

    BTW this isn’t just a US thing.

  • Bones

    Now we’re number one.

    Aussie aussie aussie oi oi oi.

    Good on you too Obama.

  • Bones

    Piss off.

  • Guthrum

    “Paris: French Soldiers Shoot Man With Machete !” (Paul Begley)
    “Islam and terror” (Tiffany Gabbay)

  • Herm

    Where in the Scriptures does the Messiah give authority to the Old Testament Scriptures as each word proceeding from the mouth of God?

    Ben has quoted the Old Testament many times because it is a very valuable and sincerely bound relational history of mankind and God.

    Have you actually read the beginning, like Genesis chapters 1 and 2? If this book proceeds directly from the mouth of God why are both chapters so different in their perspective?

    Have you read the gospels, matching instant to instant? Why do they vary so in each of their relations for the very same occurrence if each word proceeds directly from the mouth of God.

    You clearly do not live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. You live purely, in your devotion to your church of birth, by the words that proceed from the mouth of your theologians of choice. You are blind (John 14:17), led by the blind authorities of your religious community, to the Holy Spirit, the only Spirit of truth, by and in whom you could then speak the living word of God boldly without any Scriptures ever again (Acts 4:31).

    You study the Scriptures as though they are the word of God because in them you think you have eternal life yet you refuse to come to Jesus in the Spirit of truth to have life (John 5:39-40).

    You have no clue that your and our only salvation from the stinking fertilizer you spout is by accepting the Advocate as your only available source for the words of God perfectly apropos to today. Please, for your sake and those you mislead, read and heed the Scripture below. You are truly “wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment“.

    But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: about sin, because people do not believe in me; about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

    John 16:7-11 (NIV2011)

    Don’t believe me, ask the Advocate! If you receive no answer then both your Scriptures and your God are dead. The Bible, that you so falsely revere as words proceeding from the mouth of God, might as well be dead if you do not come to be filled by the Holy Spirit, without pause and without ever ceasing.

    I boldly testify that the word of God is not dead and actually is in your midst this moment. My testimony is the best I can do for you. Only God in you and you in God can do exponentially better for both you and us.

  • Herm,

    In order to have a debate about the nature of God and His Son and His Spirit two people need to have a common starting point. That is usually the bible for most Christians.

    You have some concept of the Spirit that I have never heard of and one that does not require the bible to understand.

    So, unfortunately, it is not possible to debate with you about God because we have no common starting point or belief.

    Why do you quote John 16:7-11? You have said the bible is the product of a bunch of old men and not the word of God. You reject Matthew 4:4 though it is repeated in Luke 4:4. When Jesus said we shall live by every word of God where are those words if not in the bible. When you accept what Jesus said in the bible but reject the other scriptures how exactly does that work.

    Many times I get the feeling you are trying to save me from the horrors of reading the bible and talking about it because you don’r agree with my interpretations and feel I am spouting from some unknown church.

    Time to man up Herm and accept the fact that I for one believe in the bible and will continue to defend it in this blog.

  • Herm

    Bob, you wrote:

    Why do you quote John 16:7-11? You have said the bible is the product of a bunch of old men and not the word of God.

    I quoted John 16:17-11 to point out that because Jesus left, as our Advocate on earth, He sent the Spirit of truth as our Advocate today. You can speak to Him and He will answer. You lie when you say I ever “said the bible is the product of a bunch of old men“.

    Okay, let’s begin with one baby step.

    In the Bible, that you only know and believe in, where does the Messiah give authority to the Old Testament Scriptures and/or the New Testament Scriptures as proceeding from the mouth of God?

  • You wrote.
    “I rest my case! The Bible is not the living and available word of God. The Bible has no authority according to the Bible.” Not exactly a rousing endorsement of the source you quote.

    I would say it is contradictory to quote Jesus from the bible and then say the scriptures have no authority. “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.”2 Timothy 3:16.

  • Herm

    In the Bible, that you only know and believe in, where does the Messiah give authority to the Old Testament Scriptures and/or the New Testament Scriptures as proceeding from the mouth of God?

  • Ask and answered several times.

  • Herm

    2 Timothy 3:16 is not the Messiah giving authority to Scripture.

    Matthew 4:4 and Luke 4:4 do not say anything about the Bible being in any way the word of God.

    This is the only WAY to live beyond bread alone!

    “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.

    John 16:12-15 (NIV2011)

    After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

    Acts 4:31 (NIV2011)

    You know you really aren’t filled with the Holy Spirit don’t you? If you were there wouldn’t be this discussion.

  • Bones

    Lol…..so did some of mine last night.

    I quickly got over it and reworded it.

    He’s cracking down on the f bomb.

  • Bones

    Lol……there were more white people shot in the us….and breivik still holds the record….

    Seems Canada has a problem with right wing extremists though.

  • Bones

    Piss off.

  • Your scriptures do not disprove the assertion of most, i.e., the bible is the word of God. As you do not understand the nature of God, the Word and His Spirit, you have this man made, skewed and incorrect understanding. It’s not what i am filled with but what you are full of….

  • Matthew

    I just heard on NPR that World Relief — apparently an evangelical refugee resettlement ministry — has something like 100 or more pastors who are against Trump’s ban and who have signed a letter stating their dissatisfaction.

  • Herm

    Bob, you have nothing written in your Bible that proves it is the word of God. I am immersed in the Holy Spirit right this moment that proves the word of God did not die 1,984 years ago. I am asserting nothing.

    If you do not find this good news then, truly, you have no hope. Continue to study your scriptures but in them if you don’t find the Spirit of truth in you then you will not live beyond your carnal years.

    I do care but I can’t open your heart and mind to accept the Advocate who was given us that we children of God would not be orphaned from God at Jesus’ ascension. Go to Them,the Father and the Son, to prove what I am filled with as your Scriptures tell you to.

  • Herm,

    Please advise what Jesus is talking about in this one verse – of which there are many:

    Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only you shall serve'” (Matthew 4:10).

    Written where? Could it be the bible? Oh no! What shall we do…

  • Herm

    Why would you believe that Jesus is giving what is written authority as the word of God in Matthew 4:10?

    Bob, you are fighting a losing argument for you only keep making it clear that you are not in the Spirit and the Spirit is not in you. In my Bible it is, also, written:

    “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

    John 4:21-24 (NIV2011)

    In your cherished Bible, that you worship as the word of God, it is written this way:

    Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

    John 4:21-26 (KJV)

    You cannot worship the Father in the Spirit from or in your physical Bible. The image of God is not physical. Children of God are not physical. Eternal life is not physical.

    I, and many others, know to worship our heavenly Father in the Spirit only.

  • Why would you suggest He did not? What other book did Jesus reference besides the bible? Why would the Son of God reference a man made book at all?

    Educate me please. How exactly do you worship the Father in spirit and in truth?

    The bible for your information is the most published book in history and the Bible says that the gates of hell will not prevail against it. That is a prophecy which by the way has stood the test of time. Can you argue against that?

    What bible is it that you quote?

  • Jesus also said in Matthew 5:17-19 King James Version (KJV)

    17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    What was Jesus referring to in verse 18 if not the bible? Where do we find the Law – in the bible. Note that the words are considered eternal and that is all the words of the bible.

  • Herm

    Why would you suggest He did not?

    He did not ever say the scriptures are the word of God!

    What other book did Jesus reference besides the bible?

    There was no other book to those he was speaking to that they would understand that He was the prophesied Messiah. He did not quote covenant of Moses scripture to the Samaritans or to the gentiles.

    Why would the Son of God reference a man made book at all?

    Bob, why am I referencing the Bible with you? Because this is the book that tells you that Christ is alive and interacting with all under His authority today. Because this is the book that tells you that the Holy Spirit is real and available to counsel you and then to fill you.

    I am boldly writing to you the word of God, as were many of the writers of the Bible, but none of us are the word of God and neither is any of our writings. I am inspired to speak the word of God while learning in the Spirit of truth as a sibling student of the Messiah. My inspired writings are not the word of God that is available to you equally when you choose to be filled with the Holy Spirit. These are my writings as were the inspired writings of each of the authors of the Bible. God was only witnessed to have written the Decalogue in stone and Jesus only in the sand. All the rest of what has been written by the inspiration of God is written by mankind.

    Bob, I am a long ago student of the Bible in seminary. Why do you try to argue in defense of what you do not know, the Bible, when all I am doing is pointing you to the Spirit of truth spoken of in the Bible who you do not know?

    This, by your King James version of the Bible is the only place “gates of hell” are mentioned. This is one of the places that actually speaks to the Spirit of truth as the “rock” that Jesus has built His church on, following the veil before the Holy of Holies was rent on Jesus’ last breath on the cross, and Jesus’ temple in the Spirit was built in three days upon His rising from the dead.

    When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

    Matthew 16:13-20 (KJV)

    Jesus’ church is not the Bible!!!

    Why would you even go there, “The bible for your information is the most published book in history“? Don’t you get it that you don’t even know the Bible as well as many of us here first hand? It is clear to most of us you are routed as a student of traditional theology (the study of God) and not in a relationship learning in God and God in you.

    You clearly are not comprehending one inspired word I am sharing with you if you can ask “What bible is it that you quote?” I can quote from many books inspired by God, including the Quran when saying “it is written” to a Muslim. Cannot you see yet that I have shared well beyond what is in the Bible? What do you believe God has been doing for the last 1,984 years since Jesus’ ascension?

    Bob, you wrote, “Educate me please. How exactly do you worship the Father in spirit and in truth?

    I have been trying to explain that to you from the beginning. Let me ask a question in answer, please, how do you expect to worship the Father when your carnal body dies? That is how I worship my Father today, immersed in the very same Spirit He is.

  • I think your assertion that there are many books that are inspired by God like the Quran is dangerous. No wonder you are so confused. Muhammad wrote the Quran and he was just a man like Joseph Smith. To compare the bible to other man made books and beliefs is to delude yourself. To say your words are inspired is the height of arrogance.

    That is why I ask you when you quoted the bible how you worship in spirit and truth and you cannot answer because beyond those words there is no substance. God the Father is not immersed in His spirit. The Spirit is the power Gods uses to act on the world and sustain the universe. God gives His spirit to those who are called and converted. Based on your words you are clearly do not have God’s spirit.

  • Herm

    Jesus was referring to the covenant of Moses. When He was crucified on the cross, upon His last breath, heaven and earth passed away for Jesus. The temple was destroyed by the veil (curtain) before where the high priest would speak to God through the Holy Spirit being rent (torn) top to bottom. Jesus’ temple was built in three days upon His rising from the dead and the Father gave Him all authority over heaven and earth, the covenant of Christ.

    Matthew 7:12 and 22:37-40 speak to all the law in force today and would have been all the law if Moses would have left it at the Decalogue. God didn’t change, the Hebrews did.

  • Herm

    Your heart is hardened. You read nothing but the highlights and out jumped the Koran.

    Salvation was from the Jews not God. Do you really believe God could care less about all the rest of those not born a Jew?

    You are truly damned to die if you cannot read this to understand the Holy Spirit. You tell me lies that you were told. This is the truth:

    On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

    John 14:20 (NIV2011)

    All of God, including children of God born of God, are in each other in the Spirit.

    the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

    John 14:17 (NIV2011)

    The Spirit lives with me and is in me, that is how I know Him.

    Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

    Mark 1:10-11 (NIV2011)

    The Spirit descended upon Jesus at age 30 of which He was not yet, even as the only begotten Son of Man of God through the carnal body of Mary, immersed (baptized) in the Spirit until then. You are not immersed (baptized) in the Spirit now or you would realize how ignorant and blind you come across. My words are what the Spirit tells me to tell you.

    Who is your living authority today since it is not from what Jesus and the Father tell the Spirit today?

  • Yes, what is happening in Europe is troubling. There are some differences, however. We don’t have terrorists pouring across our borders because we don’t have a border situation like in small, closely packed European countries. We have two borders, long but still just two. European countries have 4 or more. We have also had a stringent vetting process. Europe has been forced to take unvetted refugees (much like the Cuban situation in the 90’s here) where desperate immigrants just showed up unannounced. Here they have to cross a major ocean, or get visas to fly. Trump’s main problem was not a more stringent vetting process, but a hastily thrown together one tha put people at risk and created a lot of ill will. We would have a much different situation had he gradually implemented a rational plan. But no, he was merely playing to his base, immigrants be damned.

    Now illegal immigrants is a different story, different situation altogether. The danger here is crime in general, not so much terrorism. It’s a complex issue that has gotten out of control, that will cost a great deal to fix. Trump’s wall may backfire and end up costing us a lot in higher food prices and end up not being very effective in the long run. I think so far Trump is merely checking off boxes of campaign promises without a real overall vision or plan. Time will tell if he can take a more measured approach and whether he will listen to cabinet members who disagree with him.

  • Bones

    This is obviously hard for you to believe but the people who wrote the Bible were just men.

  • Bones

    Europe also remembers how they were refugees in ww2.

  • Matthew

    So … Bob says Herm doesn´t have the Spirit and Herm thinks Bob doesn´t have the Spirit.

    Where do we go from here?

  • Matthew

    How do you balance security and compassion? Can someone even balance the two?

  • Incorrect on all counts. Jesus was clearly referring to the scriptures as written.

    “jot or tittle” – the smallest letter of the Hebrew and Aramaic alphabets. Clearly referring to the first five books of the Old Testament known as the Pentateuch.

    The Temple was not destroyed at that time but in 70 a.d.

  • It’s fairly simple. As I already stated to have a debate about anything you need a common starting point. Since Herm does not believe the bible is the word of God there is little to be gained by debating him about the meaning of certain scriptures.

  • “Salvation was from the Jews not God. Do you really believe God could care less about all the rest of those not born a Jew?” Of course not. You do not understand, and cannot understand, the Plan of God for Man. Almost all will be saved and enter into the Kingdom – just not the way you think.

    Your understanding of the nature of God is totally incorrect also. Man has the spirit of man at birth. Man receives the spirit of God after he is called, repents and is baptized. Not before, not at birth, not by baptism as a baby, not because you say they do. All authority in heaven and on the earth was given to Jesus after His death and resurrection. His laws and words are written for anybody who cares to read them in the bible. The most published book on the earth. These words are not of private interpretation but require study. I have no authority of my own.

    “My words are what the Spirit tells me to tell you.” I would disagree with that statement as you are often incorrect and slightly incoherent.

  • Bones

    I’ve had a couple of spirits just tonight.

    Some craft beers, a cider and a couple of reds.

  • Bones

    Except the law has disappeared.

    Matthew was written way after 70 CE when the temple had been destroyed.

  • Bones

    You have infinitely more chance by being killed by an American with a gun than a terrorist refugee.

    But don’t take those guns away……

  • Bones

    Where’s this conquering army of Islam?

    You mean the collection of failed states confined to the middle east, central Asia and a couple of countries in Africa.

    Heck it’s taking a long time for Islam to jump from indonesia, the largest Muslim country in the world to australia.

  • Bones

    In case you haven’t heard you just cant adopt and accept refugees by yourself .

    That’s the realm of government policy.

    Which apparently the government has no business in.

    Or something.

  • Herm

    What is your god doing right now beyond administering your church?

  • Herm

    I leave you to your temple image administered by Man who studies God but never comes to Him for life. You really do believe that all you were left was that dead book of yours as all of God contained within … for the last 1,984 years. The God of whom I am a child of lives, not to be studied from afar but loved eternally from within today. Go your way. bye

  • treos

    you know, it seems as if people in this country (US) WANT things to keep getting worse. well, those who are against trump actually fixing and improving things.

    regarding the immigration ban, it’s NOT a muslim ban. what, do these people WANT the US to be a repeat of germany? yeah, why don’t they ask the germans how multiculturalism has been working for them so far.

    so far, i’ve seen and heard nothing but good coming from trump since his inauguration yet the assholes of this country and its mainstream media constantly attack him and his family at every possible opportunity.

    oh and that was a great first press conference he had too. lol calling out CNN on their fake news BS.

    well, FOX NEWS hasn’t which is strange. a few years ago FOX would be one of the last channels i’d check for actual news. now…now it’s CNN who are spreading BS and it’s FOX that’s doing actual GOOD news coverage. o_O weird.

  • Bones

    Lol…yeah trump is going great.

    Keep going with those alternative facts.

    You better let Rudy know it wasn’t a Muslim ban seeing that’s how he’s saying trumps described it.

    The arseholes are in power including an absolute religious lunatic in charge of education.

    Seems your courts have a problem with a president who thinks he’s a dictator.

    I’d be pissed off too if I lived in the US.

    thank god I don’t.

  • Matthew

    You can’t effectively help the refugees without government assistance and legislation.

  • treos

    pissed off at what? trump working to fix the problems his shithead predecessor caused and improving things overall?

    or…the people rioting in the streets? the people insulting and attacking him, his wife, and their kids (really now, that is low.)? or perhaps those opposing the immigration ban who might be happier living in amerikanistan (last i checked, the muslim population in germany passed the 6 million mark for the first time in 2016. think there was something else about the birth rates of native germans too but i don’t remember right offhand.).

    BLM, feminazis, SJWs, the transgender people…this countries population is so fucked up it’s ridiculous. it’s almost like a good portion of the population (those opposing trump for one) actually WANT things to keep getting worse than they already are.

    oh and also the so-called “safe schools” program which iirc was founded by pedophiles.

    i’m all for trump fixing things but the courts and international politics aren’t the only major problems he’s gonna run into.

    *sigh* would be nice if i could live on a planet far from all this BS…and probably religion too since that also leads to nothing but more trouble.

    come to think of it. that question… would that be 0 lives saved vs millions? or billions? killed at this point regarding islam?

  • Bones

    How long has it been?

    Two weeks?

    And already this presidency has degenerated into a complete clusterf**k.

    Trump isn’t going to fix anything with the complete nutters he has surrounded himself with.

    He hasn’t drained the swamp.

    He’s poisoned it.

    But yeah it’s all the fault of those transgender people….

    Moron.

  • Josh, I think it’s just hilarious how the last 150 years the Religious Right has been harping on America needs to be a “Christian Nation,” put prayer back in schools, the Ten Commandments posted in every courthouse, Supreme Court nominees that have Judeo-Christian “values,” Christian presidents (Obama=Muslim=BAD), voting guides in churches so we vote for “family values,” yet mention letting Muslim refugees in our country and all hell breaks loose. “That’s not the government’s job, that’s the churches job.” Feed the poor…”the government isn’t a charity organization, that’s the church’s job.” You see, Josh, the Religious Right wants a “Christian Nation,” but on their terms, not God’s.

    The real reason behind many Evangelicals’ is not so much fear of terrorism, but “nativism,” the belief that some peoples are intrinsically “more American” than others. This goes all the way back to our becoming a nation…”where did all them dang natives come from? They don’t belong here. Put ’em on reservations. The land belongs to white folks.” This became alarmingly clear on Facebook last week for me when I joined a discussion with a half-dozen Evangelicals on the immigrant ban. One Italian-American argued very adamately that these mostly Muslim immigrants should be kept out of America at all costs, because our safety was more important than their welfare (America First). I thought by pointing out the history of the influx of Italian refugees escaping terrible poverty in Italy and Sicily by coming to America in the millions 1880s – WWI, would some how strike a chord of compassion or empathy. I pointed out that we let them in regardless of the fact that the Cosa Nostra came in with them, causing us a great deal of harm. That we could have put a ban on his forefathers to keep criminals out.

    Unabashedly he explained that was different because Italians were Christians (how being killed by a Christian mobster is different than being killed by a Muslim terrorist differs I don’t know). Islam is incompatible with Christianity, he went on to explain. Only those with a “Judeo-Christian” background should be let in. At that point I decided not to argue any further by pointing out that the Religious Right at that time actually didn’t want Italians swarming into the country because they were Catholic, that they were not suitably “American” enough. And that that animus would continue amongst the Right all the way to the Kennedy presidential election in the 60’s.

    Like I said, this has very little to do with security and every bit to do with religious discrimination, very much a hallmark of Conservativism. It becomes increasingly difficult to build a Christian fascist state when we keep letting people of other faiths in. In the meantime, those who don’t fit the Religious Right’s definition of “American” need to be kept in check with laws that remove their rights, therefore marriage equality needs to be overturned, Roe v. Wade overturned, right to discriminate based on religious freedom, etc. I am proud to be a Liberal. To be liberal means to be “generous.” To be conservative is to yell “STOP,” let’s go backwards to a time when America was Great, when WASPs were in control, when women, Blacks, Latinos, Asians, Muslims, all knew their “place.”

  • treos

    at least trump is TRYING to make things better.

    but no, let’s all continue to bitch and whine about hes the fucking devil and is going to bring about the end times!

    let me guess, had you the chance you would’ve voted hillary. right?

    i honestly thought you smarter than this. but i guess your no more intelligent than all the other idiots out there attacking trump instead of letting do his job and try to make things better.

    i can only imagine the disaster it would be had hillary been elected. a repeat of germany via the “open border policy” would possibly be the least of our worries.

  • “Whoa whoa whoa whoa, out of bound my friend. Who’s talking about religion? This is a discussion of forced charity (i.e. coercion).”
    …Actually, Josh, the entire discussion has been about religion, specifically the Religious Right’s political take on Muslim refugees. Do try to keep up.

    “Well I certainly want a Christian nation; if by Christian nation, you mean the non-meddling nature of government or social construct in the affairs of one’s individual life. Then certainly; and yes, a true “Christian nation” would allow such a thing.”
    …Josh, I think I’d need more explanation from you as to definition of a “Christian nation” to know how to respond. From reading further down your post, it appears you are not advocating for a Christian nation but for a Libertarian America. If so, you are a bit off-topic, although I would suggest a Libertarian, every man for himself vibe, would not represent a “true Christian nation.”

    “We’re not here to debate the hypocrisies of the “Religious Right” over time past, and, particularly, not of time present; I’m sure you can appreciate that the overall tone of Christianity (which you deem the Religious Right) in politics is much more secularized and “laissez fare”.”
    …Yes, Josh, this was pretty much the point of the article. The Religious Right is no more secularized today than it has ever been. It has always strived to maintain a certain status quo, although has never been particularly successful. “Laissez fare,” well, yes and no. Economics, yes, blurring religion and politics, no.

    “IF YOU WOULD LISTEN TO THE PARTY, none in leadership (or with an inkling of leadership) of the conservative–or, hell, the Republican party–believes this.”
    …Whoa whoa whoa, let’s get back on track. We’re talking about the Religious Right, not the Republican Party. Being a fiscal Conservative, advocating States Rights or believing in a smaller government is fine and has been argued for and against since our nation’s founding. I was a Republican until just recently. I don’t think Trump represents the brand very well, do you?

    “Here’s the catch: in the last 500 years of their history, Cosa Nostra or Italians in general have not committed 30,000+ terrorist attacks; let alone since 9/11/2001.”
    …My point remains. If all we were concerned about was our own safety and security, to be consistent, banning immigrants from Italy would have made sense based on the same reasoning. The Mob controlled America from the 20’s to the 60’s. Had it been up to the Religious Right at that time, there would not have been a massive influx of Italian refugees. They were predominately Catholic and were not wanted here by conservative Protestants who saw Catholics as un-American, owing their allegiance to the Pope. Anti-catholic sentiment was strong in America until the 1970’s amongst Evangelicals. It was not until abortion was made the cause cé·lè·bre by Francis Schaeffer that Evangelicals banded together with Catholics. But because Americans as a whole tend to be more liberal towards others in need, Italian immigrants were allowed in.

    “You talk about religious discrimination as if the organization is carrying out prejudices against the people. You also talk about religious discrimination as if its a cause and not an effect.”
    …Whether it is a conservative xenophobia/isolationism, or a fundamentalist Christian anti-Muslim religious discrimination, the effect is the same, people are kept out and people suffer that could be helped.

    “There’s no such thing as a Christian fascist state, because Christianity has kept itself in check through the ages…particularly after the Reformation.”
    …Beg to differ. This is a common presentism found amongst Evangelicals. The Roman Catholic Church was one HUGE fascist state, or confederation of states owing allegiance to the Pope. After the reformation, Protestantism divided into warring states, each having a particular Protestant faith influencing the government. Anabaptist? Leave our country. Catholic, leave our country. The Puritans left England to be free to worship they way they wanted, but not to establish freedom for others to worship their own way. They hoped to establish a Puritan commonwealth. Once America won her independence, there has been a continual struggle between religious conservatives to make America more Anglo-Saxon Protestant, and liberals who have strived to be more fair-minded.

    “What rights are threatened?”
    …Really, Josh? Let’s start with the right to give one’s love to whom we choose. To spend one’s life with another adult we love without censure from bigoted Evangelicals. …The pursuit of happiness spoke of in our Declaration of Independence. Conservative Christians fought hard for segregation, to keep the races separate, to criminalize mixed race marriage and have fought hard to criminalize same-sex marriage.
    …Women’s rights. Women have been controlled by men for thousands of years. Liberals eventually saw the stupidity in that endeavor and changed. Evangelicals are still living in caves, dragging their mates by the hair. While being pro-life is not a bad thing, being anti-female is. And the conservative Christian controlled pro-life movement is strongly anti-female and chauvinistic.
    …Black lives matter. The immediate response to this movement has been denial. “All lives matter,” was the Evangelical response. Denying any legitimacy to Black’s claims while simultaneously appearing magnanimous. What hypocrisy. Shot 9 times in the back by a cop…”well, why did he run?” Evangelicals fear Blacks and Latinos and will either ignore police brutality, deny it happens or seek to support racial profiling under the guise of “law and order.”
    …Discrimination. As Americans we expect to be treated fairly. Evangelicals seek loopholes to avoid this, to be free to discriminate against others who are different. If you have a public business, one CANNOT refuse to serve someone because of their religion, race or sexual orientation. If one cannot abide by the simple rules of common courtesy then one needs to not have a public business.
    …Persecution. This is THE BIG LIE amongst Evangelicals, and is based, to a large degree, on the Dispensational movement that began in the beginning of the 20th century. Although dispensationalism crested in the 1970s with “The Late Great Planet Earth,” the effects of it’s “victim mentality” amongst Evangelicals is still very strong. Evangelicals see themselves as marginalized, victimized, socially ostracized and persecuted. This is due to their understanding of Biblical “end times,” rather than actuality. The end result of this narcissism is a failure to realize who is really persecuted in America. The Religious Right ends up being the persecutee and not the persecuted.

    “You’re not a liberal. You’re a socialist.”
    …And you’re not a conservative, but a Libertarian. Sticks and stones.

    “‘To be liberal means to be generous.’ No it doesn’t. To be liberal means to be one supporting freedom.”
    …Alternate truth? Josh, a simple word search would clarify things for you. There are dictionaries online you know. But I will help you.
    Liberal: adjective…
    “Willing to respect or accept behavior or opinions different from one’s own; open to new ideas.
    Favorable to or respectful of individual rights and freedoms.
    (in a political context) favoring individual liberty, free trade, and moderate political and social reform.
    (especially of an interpretation of a law) broadly construed or understood; not strictly literal.
    Given, used, or occurring in generous amounts.
    (of a person) giving generously.” – Oxford dictionaries.

    As you can clearly see, Josh, being liberal is much more than supporting freedom. It encompasses a generosity of spirit and a willingness to accept others who differ, open minded and broadly interpreting our laws rather than narrowly constraining them to an 18th century literalism.

    “BUT NO, you’d rather give my money away because you’re a piece of work who believes the government should be all powerful and somehow has the ability to change the hearts of people by legislating things like abortion in ways our Founding Fathers never had in mind!
    You’re not a liberal; you don’t believe in generosity. You believe in theft.
    You’re not a liberal; you don’t believe in my freedom to choose what I do with my earnings. You believe in dictation.”
    …Ah, now we are getting to the heart of the matter. Taxation and centralized government. You basically don’t like the way the government spends your money and wish a decentralized government with more control on a state level for state affairs. Fair enough. This argument goes all the way back to our founding fathers and culminated in our American Civil War. As I recall, you guys lost. The Tea Party movement has instilled interest in it again.

    “If government got out of the way, nay if government would’ve never gotten in the way, we would have a much better economy and system to bring others out of poverty.”
    …Again, I must disagree. Our country is way too big and diverse for a “small government.” Historically America has been slightly more prosperous under liberal rule than conservative. (1)

    In conclusion a quote from a true Evangelical, Rev. Billy Graham:
    “I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it.”
    — Rev. Billy Graham, Parade, 1981 (2)

    (1) http://www.salon.com/2015/12/28/these_5_charts_prove_that_the_economy_does_better_under_democratic_presidents/

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-carolyn-maloney/does-the-economy-do-bette_b_10437878.html

    http://www.scholarsstrategynetwork.org/brief/under-democratic-presidents-minorities-make-economic-gains-and-so-do-whites

    (2) http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/3240018-i-don-t-want-to-see-religious-bigotry-in-any-form

  • Thanks Josh.
    The “red letter” crowd are more concerned with social issues that they cannot do much about. They like to be angry about issues where they can make our great country out to be the bad guy.

  • Bones

    Lol….yeah let’s ban Muslims from countries with no threats to make the idiots like you happy while still allow those from the most extreme and terrorist friendly countries on earth.

    Trumps presidency has been a major f##k up already and unfortunately he isn’t the Supreme Leader he thought he would be.

  • Bones

    That whiff would be your bullshit.

    Like martin luther king was a liberal fascit government stooge and the rest of your nonsense.

  • treos

    sorry our national security means less to you than bashing our president.

    “Muslims from countries with no threats”

    ANYWHERE with a large muslim population is a major terrorism risk.

    muslims do not integrate with western society. muslims seek the destruction and subjugation of all things not islamic. these are known facts.

    but of course, let’s not forget #notallmuslims, right? i guess you missed all the news about how the muslim invasion is destroying countries like sweden, britain, and germany.

    hell, their supreme leader even wrote a book on how to destroy america. wtf are you trying to defend these monsters? that’s no better than those leading germany’s destruction.

  • Nick

    Dr. Corey, I am struggling to understand verses 40 and 46 in context. What does Jesus mean by ” least of these brothers of Mine”? Is it a general reference to the above mentioned list or does it reference the church?

  • treos

    heres the thing about muslims. ANY large muslim population is a major terrorism risk.

    ask germany, ask france, ask sweden which iirc has one of the smallest muslim populations out of those affected by the invasion. even with as small a muslim population as sweden has, they still have seen a spike in sexual assault and/or rape crime and the vast majority of those are committed by muslims. heck, they likely also saw a spike in terrorist activity too.

    you say “Trumps presidency has been a major f##k up”. why? how so?

    he is trying to live up to the claims he made during the election while people like you sit around attacking him for doing so. what is it about that that is so Fing wrong? what exactly is so wrong with wanting things to get better? WELL?

    fixing the economy, getting rid of that shitty obamacare crap, bringing jobs BACK to america instead of driving off business elsewhere, improving national security.

    tell me how exactly these are bad things? how exactly is trump wanting to help with these thing bad? i really don’t see wtf yours and all the other indoctrinated masses problem is with wanting things to improve in this country.

    but of course, all you want to do is sit there and attack him and now me because we want this country to get better than what it was.

    well? how exactly is trump trying to make things better so very bad? i’d really like to know. no bashing him, just an explanation. though i rather doubt that’s gonna happen.

  • Snooterpoot

    I would rather live as the only Christian in a community of Muslims than to share my space with religious bigots like you.

  • Bones

    Albania is free from terrorism.

    Mainly because it doesn’t have oil nor Saudi clerics peddling their poisonous nonsense.

    Oh yeah Saudi Arabia isn’t banned yet Yemen is.

    Number of us citizens killed by Yemenis = 0

    Number of Yemeni killed by US = 1000’s.

    But trumps making you happy.

    Lol trumps security advisor has just resigned as a Russian plant.

    You can’t make up this shit.

  • Bones

    Did you hear the one about the president who appointed a Russian plant as his National Security advisor?

  • treos

    so basically, you’d prefer to commit suicide. that’s pretty much what you just said since the muslims would sooner see you dead before anything else.

    also, i am not a religious person.

  • treos

    yeah, we’re done here. hope you like sunglasses.

  • Bones

    Dude, my neighbours to the north are the largest Muslim country on Earth.

    No slashing of wrists here.

    You are simply hysterical.

  • Bones

    Lol….Trump f**ked up bigly.

    As usual……

  • Bones

    “Your trump friends couldn’t care if they were dead or not.”

    Like your fellow trumpista, treos.

  • Snooterpoot

    No, basically I don’t want to live in a community of loathsome bigots. And one doesn’t have to be religious to espouse bigotry against any religion, so my inference was not that you, personally, are religious, only that you hate and stereotype more than a billion people because of the religion that they follow.

  • treos

    “only that you hate and stereotype more than a billion people because of the religion that they follow.”

    i hate islam because it is literally a religion of death, suffering, and submission.

    those who follow islam, muslims, wish non-believers, gays, ad atheists dead. they are taught these things from birth.

    this is not stereotyping muslims when it is pointing out true facts about the religion they believe in.

    there is no end to the reasons as to why people should oppose islam and NO reason as to why it should be defended.

    look at what the muslim invasion of europe has led to. look at germany, britain, sweden, and canada. everywhere they go, crime rates spike, terrorist threats spike, sex crimes spike. and the ones who cause these problems? the muslim populations themselves.

    i happen to be both gay and an atheist. just being in the presence of a muslim would likely be putting my own life at risk because their religion teaches them that they should kill such people. that doing so is a good thing and an act of mercy and compassion.

    List of Islamic terror: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=Last30

    that is just the last 30 days alone. see the “list of attacks” links on the left (scroll down some) to see the list by year.

    i don’t care if you call me a bigot. if opposing islam makes me a bigot…that’s actually not a bad thing in this particular case. it beats the alternative of defending and supporting that religion of death.

  • Snooterpoot

    Yeah, well, I happen to be both lesbian and Christian, and I think you’re full of hatred and venom. Do you even know any Muslims?

    Again, you’re a loathsome bigot. And, treos, we’re done. I’ve wasted enough time and energy with you. If you want to reply, I’ll consider it to be bait, and I won’t bite.

  • JD

    Bob,
    Since you must have missed my post refuting your weak rationalizations and search for loopholes to Christ’s teachings, I will re-post for you. Also, odd that you seem to talk derisively of the “red letter” crowd. You do know that the red letters are the words of Christ Himself, right? The fact that you seem to reject the red letters is concerning. Maybe “reject” is too harsh. The fact that you seek loopholes to the red letters is concerning.

    “Bob, if you want to say that Christ was only talking to individuals, fine. Guess who makes up “government”? Government is simply an institution that is operated by individual people, many of who claim to be Christian. So, fine, He wasn’t talking to “governments”, but He absolutely was talking to His followers that may find themselves working for the government. We, as Christians, don’t get to put Christ’s teachings on the back-burner so we can carry out the antichrist policies of government. It doesn’t work that way.

    So, sure, say that government can make these restrictions all you want. We, as followers of Christ though, have an obligation to stand and speak against them. We certainly shouldn’t be endorsing them. It seems like Christians act as though they found a loophole to be exclusionary and led by fear…..just have government do it then scream Romans 13.

    As a side note, this is also a great example as to why many early church leaders not only condemned government service, but if that service required violence, would remove believers from the fellowship if they continued to perform in that role.”

  • JD

    Bones, I think Bob is the one I spoke with before that believes the British Royal Family are descendants of the lost tribes of Israel. I think he buys into this quintessentially Western view of British Israelism. You should take a look at this nonsense: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Israelism

  • JD,
    I do not accept the premise that certain scriptures have more weight than others. I believe in 2Tim.3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. If you have a proof to offer that the words of Christ have more weight than any other bible verses please post it.

    If you find yourself working for a government that forces you to act against your beliefs then you have to decide whether it is better to stay or find another job. Many of us had to decide whether it was more important to stop working on the Sabbath; we did not have the option to tell our employer that their policies were wrong.
    Government has not been the problem in obeying God in general in this country.

    “We, as followers of Christ though, have an obligation to stand and speak against them.” I have no obligation to speak out against our great country but rather I have the freedom to.

  • Bones

    Lol….that is completely ridiculous.

  • JD

    I don’t disagree with 2 Tim 3:16. That doesn’t say all Scripture is created equal. Christ is the exact revelation of God’s nature. We never see God’s nature fully revealed before Christ. Given that Christ is God incarnate, I find it alarming that you put His words on the same level of, say, Solomon. But, if you want examples, here you go:

    “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court” – Matthew 5:21-22

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” – Matthew 5:27-28

    “It was said, ‘Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce’; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. – Matthew 5:31-32

    “Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill your vows to the Lord.’ But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. – Matthew 5:33-35

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. – Matthew 5:38-39

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven – Matthew 5:43-45

    These are all verses where Christ is explicitly trumping prior teachings. Why? Because He’s Christ and the exact representation of God’s nature. Want to know what God was trying to say all along? Look to Jesus. And that brings me to my next reference:

    “And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!” – Matthew 17:3-5

    Straight from God’s own mouth…”this is My beloved Son….LISTEN TO HIM!” And that’s with Christ standing next to the author of the first 5 books of the OT. I think I’ll take God’s word for it and listen to the red letters, as He commanded we do.

    Oh, and you absolutely have the obligation to speak out against evil, even when committed by your “great” country. It’s called being a follower of Christ. America isn’t special. Our government has committed countless evil acts and will continue to do so. We, as followers of Christ, have an obligation to speak against evil, to stand against evil, and to be a witness to His Kingdom. America is not His Kingdom. America is part of the “powers and principalities” of this world and belongs to Satan.

  • JD

    Yeah, it’s been thoroughly debunked, but you know how people are. Some will continue to buy into it.

  • JD

    Oh, and about this:

    “If you find yourself working for a government that forces you to act
    against your beliefs then you have to decide whether it is better to
    stay or find another job. Many of us had to decide whether it was more
    important to stop working on the Sabbath; we did not have the option to
    tell our employer that their policies were wrong.”

    You absolutely do have the option to tell your employer that their policies are wrong. You may not have the courage to do so, but don’t let cowardice be misconstrued as a lack of options. You absolutely have that option. It’s a classic “hard right vs easy wrong” scenario.

    “Government has not been the problem in obeying God in general in this country.”

    Government isn’t the problem. It’s Christians who buy into government and rationalize defense of anti-Christ measures because “government” is doing it. No, government is simply a collection of people using violence to enforce their will. As Christians, we are to reject evil and violence. We are to reject the ways of the world. We are to be witnesses to His Kingdom. There’s no loophole here. We are called to care for the refugees, so as Christians, we can’t get around that by having an inherently violent entity reject refugees on our behalf. It doesn’t work like that, and it’s treating God as though He’s not smart enough to see what you are really doing.

  • JD, part one:

    Jesus words are the words of the Father not the words of Jesus. Jesus said many things and they were not all written down contemporaneously. Later the Spirit brought those words back to the apostles and they were written down for us. The same process applies to Solomon. The spirit brought the words of the Father to Solomon and they were written down in Ecclesiastes. There is no difference in level of authority. The distinction you are making is simply a doctrine of men; not a doctrine of God. That is the clear meaning of 2 Tim. 3:16. I know you do not agree. So consider this: Why did the apostles circulate their epistles to the churches of God if only the red letter parts were required?

    Jesus quoted many Old Testament versus. Are you saying that certain versus in Isaiah are more important because Jesus referenced them? Or are you saying that because Jesus referenced certain parts of certain books then the whole book is elevated? I believe you are saying that the books of the Old Testament are not to be considered the same as the spoken words of Jesus? is this because you cannot accept many things that are written in those books?

    We see God’s nature revealed from the first verse of the bible and all the way through the bible. What we learn from Jesus’ words in the bible is a small fraction of what is revealed in the entire bible.The versus you quote only further expand on the ten commandments; they are not new. When you reference God telling us to listen to Jesus remember that Jesus said keep my commandments. We would do well in this age to do that but we do not. For example, you cite “anger” as a derivative of the commandment not to murder while today we kill babies in the womb without the slightest regret. This abomination has been going on from the earliest times when man threw his first born into the fire to honor Molech. Today we let the doctor do it with forceps and call it a women’s reproductive rights. I’d rather face Jesus at the resurrection admitting that I have many times been angry at others rather than admitting that I condoned, accepted or performed abortions.

    There is no command to listen just to the “red letters” as you state it. It is simply of doctrine of men thousands of years down the timeline without foundation or basis in Christianity. I red that this theory was “The idea of printing the words of Christ in red originated with Lous Klopsch, editor of Christian Herald magazine” circa 1901. Either way it is not biblical just another in the many man made doctrines. I’ll leave this part with the words of Jesus in Matthew 24:

    23At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

    26“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

  • Bones

    Yeah….facts are now false news.

  • Snooterpoot

    And lies are now “alternative facts.”

  • JD, (part 2)
    Saying, “No, government is simply a collection of people using violence to enforce their will.”, makes me wonder what country you live in? Certainly not the USA.

    You said, “Government isn’t the problem. It’s Christians who buy into government and rationalize defense of anti-Christ measures because “government” is doing it.” I say, Christians and the progressive Left don’t “buy” into government. We were born into for the most part and we are citizens of this country. We are taught to obey lawful authority. As we mature we learn that everything is not perfect and that we can change laws by our free elections. This just happened on an epic scale. The voters, me included, rejected the lawless progress left and elected a President who will enforce our laws. Enforcement of law is not a violent event. Notice it is the paid for Left demonstrations that use violence as a cover for “change.”

    You said, “As Christians…We are to reject the ways of the world.” I say, that is taking liberty with that scripture as it has to do with personal conduct not vilifying government.

    You said, “We are called to care for the refugees, so as Christians, we can’t get around that by having an inherently violent entity reject refugees on our behalf.” I say, we are called by God to listen to His Word and obey His Laws and Commands. You have not demonstrated that “refugees” are the strangers referenced by Jesus in Matthew 25:

    35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

    What you have demonstrated is a typical progressive Left position that blames our country for the latest cause du jour “refugees”. Your personal comments/feelings about what should be done for “refugees” has nothing to do with what Jesus explained in Matthew 25. You have a personal responsibility to fulfill re Matthew 25 and ranting about what our government should or should not do doesn’t fulfill that obligation. When you say we are “an inherently violent entity” you demonstrate your ignorance of history and the great blessing you possess by being a citizen of this “greatest country on God’s green earth.”

  • Herm

    I do not accept the premise that certain scriptures have more weight than others. I believe in 2Tim.3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. If you have a proof to offer that the words of Christ have more weight than any other bible verses please post it.

    Bob, do you know how brainwashed that sounds?

    Are you not inspired to write about God and your relationship with Them in the Bible? The words you are writing is given by the inspiration of some god, for certain, even if a lying alternative fact god.

    What you are reading right this moment is scripture inspired by God profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness if you choose; determined only by how you use it.

    If you knew the words of Christ in you and you in Him today, this moment as the Bible says you can, you would realize how insane you are to place all your trust in the writings of any of mankind that you interpret as proof based only on the document telling you it is fact, true or alternative. Your heart and mind has been trumped by the spirit of Satan!

    God found all my employers when I chose not to work on the Sabbath in honor of His creation day of rest. I have since found that that specifically set aside rest is found in the Spirit and not in a ritualistic physical act. That is how children of God grow when they have only one Teacher. This is my Sabbath in God.

  • Herm

    https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3474730-DHS-intelligence-document-on-President-Donald.html

    Bob, that is the fact regarding the fear of two year vetted refugees instilled by your lying fear monger god.

    This is the fact regarding what Bible scripture says about all refugees:

    Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it. Continue to remember those in prison as if you were together with them in prison, and those who are mistreated as if you yourselves were suffering.

    Hebrews 13:2-3 (NIV2011)

    This is the fact of exactly who your neighbor is to Jesus:

    But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

    In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

    “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

    The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

    Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

    Luke 10:29-37 (NIV2011)

    Refugees from SYRIA, IRAQ, SOMALIA, IRAN, SUDAN, LIBYA & YEMEN pose no more danger in our land than the Samaritan did in the land of the Jews. Go and do likewise.

  • Bones

    No surprise you’do be singing with the “Martin Luther King was a fascist” crowd.

  • Bones

    You’ve spent the last 8 years whinging, ranting and blaming the black guy – the antichrist was your description..

    f##k off.

  • Herm,

    “What you are reading right this moment is scripture inspired by God profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness if you choose; determined only by how you use it.”

    I won’t sugar coat this statement; it is blasphemy!

  • Back at you kangaroo man…

  • Herm

    Bob,

    This is what Jesus said then, according to your Bible, and says now according to the Spirit of truth:

    Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

    Matthew 12:32 (NIV2011)

    blasphemy – noun – the act or offense of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk.

    This is not sugar coated by He who lives and is my Judge. Jesus is in me and I in Him by way of the Holy Spirit.

    By whose authority do you judge when your Bible says this is so?

  • Bones

    Yes, you’ve shown yourself to be the ultimate hypocrite.

  • Rainer Moeller

    Dr. Corey, I’m a bit uncertain how to interprete this “welcome the stranger”. Must a San Francisco blonde welcome the opportunity to be carred down by a drunk Mexican driver? Or is this not needed? May she protect herself against such an opportunity? (By less intrusive means? By voting for Trump?)

    Are there any limits to “welcome”?
    Being a Doctor of Intercultural Studies you certainly can answer these questions.

  • I am not judging you. Your own words judge you. You are preaching another gospel and one I don’t see often.

  • Herm

    Bob, that was a judgment you passed, without the insight or authority to do so. Yes, you are in the many, clearly not the few. You have been invited but you refuse to put yourself entirely in God as your mentor and judge.

    Every quote below had not been written when everything that is testified to happened. There was no Bible and certainly nothing written in the king’s English (until over 1,500 years later).

    On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and the elders had said to them. When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God.

    “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David: “

    ‘Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth rise up and the rulers band together against the Lord and against his anointed one.’ Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

    Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”

    After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

    Acts 4:23-31 (NIV2011)

    I speak the word of God not the theology of the Pharisees.

    For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

    Romans 1:16-17 (NIV2011)

    Below is testimony of who “the gospel” is, “the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.”

    And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

    John 14:16-17 (NIV2011)

    The gospel, the Spirit of truth, lives with me and is in me to help me forever.

    And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

    Mark 13:10-11 (NIV2011)

    You put me on trial by your blind judgments. You don’t hear this gospel very often because you are of the many who listen only to the Pharisees and teachers of the law, who do not know God in their midst. Those many who yell by the authority of their many different church leaders’ advice, “crucify the Son of God in God’s name”. You cannot know the Spirit of truth from the pulpit of mankind’s church in Jesus’ name. You can only know the Advocate from within, made available by my Father for you to know the truth of God.

    “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

    Matthew 22:14 (NIV2011)

  • S.Philips

    Dr. Benjamin L. Corey,

    Honestly tell me…such people are already available in your own city..

    Did you applied what you wrote in your ow life?

  • S.Philips

    Dr. Corey wrote “We should welcome refugees in order to avoid the wrath of God.”
    Sorry Dr. Corey, Bible have no such verse in it…it is a politically correct interpretation to fool simple minded people.
    There are severe flows in Dr. Corey’s arguments…
    The subject Jesus spoke was about how the righteous(those on right side) or unrighteous (those on left side) people of this world treated Jesus’ brothers, that is Christians during the difficult times just before Jesus second coming..

    (in Jesus words “one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine)……that alone is the criteria..

    …based on the treatment meted to Christians Jesus either rewards or punishes those on right or left sides of him. (Those stands on left and right sides are not Christians at all. )
    Question is who are the brothers and sisters of Jesus?
    Matthew 28:10-Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me”
    Clearly Jesus addressed his disciples as ‘brothers’. Not about people who have no faith in him as Son of God…..Refugees who are disciples of Jesus definitely fit into it. Such refugees do not run vehicle intentionally over others in order to kill them. Such refugees will not commit mass rape attempts. Vast majority of the refugees from middle east reject Jesus as Son of God.
    Matthew 12:48-50-“Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother”
    Here also word “brother” fit to his disciples (Christians). Refugees who are Christians, definitely fit to these criteria.

    Please do not think I meant do not help refugees. By all means please!
    Only what I want to say is Dr.Corey using Bible verse to threaten simple minded Christians with hell are totally unfair and incorrect. While welcoming refugees be vigilant. Do not get fooled.

  • Noel Voos

    Jesus as well instructed to “render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s…”, and St Paul as well admonishes the Christian to “…must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God.”

    We should be (as a country) and I believe we are, “welcoming the stranger” who comes here as a refugee and legal immigrant. The operative term is “legal”.

    “Feed the hungry. Clothe the naked. Visit the prisoner. Welcome the stranger.” These are the Catholic Corporal Acts of Mercy – since Christ spoke these words.

    Whether the concept of “immigration” existed in Christ’s time, I am not positive, but it seems more of a current era concept.

    I believe Christ was inferring more along the aspects of being kind, receptive, in general (you can see this in the Latin: ” hospes eram, et collegistis me”) to outsiders and as he identifies in the parable of the Good Samaritans – and not laying down a law to accept a criminal immigrant with open arms and sheltering them indefinitely. If he was, then his directive to the disciples and us to confront our brother (that would include strangers for us as Christians) when the sin and do wrong, and convince them to confess – “metanoia” – repent, literally do a 180 – from our sins – and if he does not listen – well the shake the dust off your sandal guidance of Christ then applies.

    So to stretch the coporal acts of mercy of giving shelter to the homeless, or welcoming the stranger – to accepting illegal immigrants – seems to go a bit too far.

    We (and they) must follow the laws of the government (legal/documented migration) – man’s and God’s – if I allow the sinner (illegal immigrant”) to remain in his sin – then I violate God’s law as well as mans. I tend to feel if I did not act according to law and encourage an illegal immigrant to return to his native land or turn himself in – nor report them myself – I am violating both sets of law. (Federal law prohibits concealing information about specific crimes. Under 18 United States Code, Section 4)

    So not welcoming “refugees in order to avoid the wrath of God” is stretching that rubber band a bit too far.

  • Ulf Turkewitsch

    In the book of Ephesians Paul states that we are saved by faith, hence Luther’s “Sola fides”. You cannot have it both ways, because faith and works are opposites. The Israelites of course, were bound by the Law of Moses. It is they to whom Jesus is speaking here in Matthew 24 and 25. NOT to Christians. Why ? Because there were none at this time. Jesus had not been crucified yet. The new order was not in place yet.
    So there are no legal requirements for salvation other than, to believe on Jesus. See the book of John, chapter 6 verse 29.
    Of course after a person has faith then works are a natural result and product of that faith. The gospel is not complicated.

  • Ed Senter

    What “God” would that be, herm. Would it be the god of your own creation?

  • Ed Senter

    Since Corey rejects the idea that God has anything to do with Israel as a nation, he must make it up to support his commentary. In this passage from Matt 25, the white throne judgment is after the millenial kingdom and the final battle with Satan and his minions. Jesus is judging the NATIONS. They are nations that either helped Israel or fought her. This is going all of the way back to Exodus where the Israelites were wandering in the wilderness and nations rejected her and God. He promised to punish those nations who did not help Israel. Now you know the true meaning of “vengence is mine sayeth the Lord”.

  • Herm

    Ed, are you making fun of the Gospel that God can and will speak to you directly?

    “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

    John 16:12-15 (NIV2011)

    “If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    John 14:15-21 (NIV2011)

    Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. “All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me. “Come now; let us leave.

    John 14:23-31 (NIV2011)

    Look, listen, hear, seek, knock and ask, please, there is no other way to become a child of God, today, to live eternally without being immersed with and in the Holy Spirit. Just because you cannot hear His voice above those of your doctrine does not mean you are not slandering the Advocate of our creator God by your snide insult.

    Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

    Mark 3:28-29 (NIV2011)

  • Don Minton

    I have read most of the comments to this blog on “Immigrants”, and it seems there are a lot of Pharisees, Scribes, and Sadducees among you. Lawyers, debating the letter of the law, claiming the Grace without regarding the Commandments. Jesus said, “if you love me, keep my commandments.” The Two great commandments, “Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind,” “and the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.” “On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Matthew 22:37-40) So what, I know He was talking to the Pharisees, and I know He was referring to the “Law” of Moses. Remember the parable of “The good Samaritan.” Who then is our Neighbor, whom we should show love too? I find no where in the Scriptures that Jesus did away with the Ten Commandments, which do not constitute the whole of the Law; however, they do summarize what God expects of us. Also let us remember the Biblical advice “lean not unto your own understanding.” and “Obedience is better than sacrifice.” Also in Second Timothy 1:7 “For God hath not given us the spirit of “fear”, but of power, and of love, and of sound mind.” I also detected in the comments a lot of fear, claiming to be of sound reasoning or of sound mind. Let us love, and let us ask ourselves, “ What would Jesus do?” Remember He was a refugee (immigrant) when Joseph and Mary took Him to a Egypt for protection. Abraham was an immigrant, so was Moses. Let us remember we are all as immigrants and beggars, needing the help and mercy of God, and the Atonement of Christ Jesus. Let us be merciful and live by faith, which is not by fear. Let’s not be as Pharisees, Scribes, and Sadducees, but let us live in the same Spirit of Mercy that Jesus had for us. Love is the greatest force in the Universe, and it always pleases God, when we have the pure love of Christ as our guide.

  • Ed Senter

    I will ask you again, herm. What god do you worship? The spirit of anti-christ is very much at work to this very day. Lots of people claim to have the “holy spirit”. Satan can quote scripture. What does the spirit you claim to have tell you?

  • Ed Senter

    The question is not “what would Jesus do?” The question is “what would Jesus have ME or YOU do?” Jesus did not teach an ethic. Jesus taught Himself. “I am the way, the truth, and the life.”
    Corey misinterprets scripture. The USA has been the most giving nation in the history of the world and has accepted more immigrants than any nation. That fact is so evident yet so much more ignored.

  • Don Minton

    Very good point Ed, thanks. Then let us all do what we think Jesus would do, He is our perfect example, as well as our Lord and Savior.

  • Herm

    Ed, 70 times 70 I will forgive you but I worship the God witnessed to in the Bible that we share but you refuse to read. This God;

    God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

    John 4:24 (NIV2011)

    You would know the God I worship if you were with and in the Spirit. Just that you have to ask says that you are not.

    If the creator God you seek is real, alive and interactive with mankind through their shared likenesses (which is only spirit) why cannot you place yourself in His hands to protect you from all evils? Why can’t you trust Them (Father, Son, mother, all children of God and the Advocate all as one God) without the Bible that has not updated for well over a millennium? It is you who lacks the faith to take that leap to simply seek, knock and ask only the creator God in heaven and on earth to accept you as Their child. I took that leap 22 years ago and became a very secure little child of God protected, provided for, nurtured, loved and taught by my only Teacher, my only Instructor and my only Father who in all I can trust to share all truth. As a child of Man I have a love of empathy to share my relationship with them that they might live with and in God, also.

    The most destructive of all anti-christs on this earth are all who teach that their Lord is completed in their Bible in the name of Christ. None of those spirits know the infinity of God that cannot be contained within any cosmos or the eternity of God that has no beginning and no end with an ever continuing time spectrum, and is here, in all our midst, sharing in our present.

    I will ask you, Ed, what god do you worship and how do you know Them?

  • Ed Senter

    You throw the term “truth” around in some esoteric gnostic nonsense.
    Jesus Christ is the TRUTH. The Spirit testifies to the truth. I worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus Christ is the physical manifestation of God. The Spirit is God’s substance of life that connects us to God if we trust Him. We do not become “like” Him. We are already created in His image. What that means is a mystery. God is God and I am His creation. All I need for eternal life is to recognize that God not only created me, but He sustains me.
    How do I know all of this? Because God chose to reveal Himself for this present age through the printed word called the Bible. If the “spirit” tells you something contrary to the Word of God, then you are listening to a deceiving spirit. Like the Bereans, I test every claim.
    The Bible does not need “updating”. It is quite clear to those who choose to understand. There is much prophesy to be fufilled; otherwise, God is a liar.

  • Herm

    “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

    John 16:12-15 (NIV2011)

    Where did Jesus ever say He chose to reveal Himself through the printed Bible?

    This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.

    Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

    John 21:24-25 (NIV2011)

    John is speaking to just the three years of Jesus’ ministry that would not have room for all the books throughout the whole world. You don’t even get a snapshot in the New Testament.

    NO, God is not a liar, mankind is!!! You lie to yourself if you are secure in the Bible which does no more than tell you where to find the truth:

    “If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    John 14:15-21 (NIV2011)

    You are not accepting the Advocate to be with you forever, without pause. Read exactly what the above scripture says and note no scriptures are necessary if Jesus doesn’t lie!!! Jesus doesn’t lie.

  • Snooterpoot

    You are a kinder person than I am, Herm. I wanted to rip him a new one for posing that question and for his deeply antagonistic attitude.

  • Ed Senter

    Herm, you continue to spew esoteric gnostic circular nonsense. You lack understanding. What is the truth??? What does the spirit reveal to you?
    Jesus said that He did not come to do away with the law or the prophets but to fulfill them. How would anyone know what He came to fulfill without the written word?
    herm, methinks you lie to yourself and are deceived.

  • Herm

    The Spirit reveals the truth to all who are with Him and in Him and He in them. That is written in the Bible and I am sharing that truth with you now according to the Teacher in me. This has been shared without the Bible ever since Jesus’ ascension. I only use the Bible for you to come to Him because there is where you have started.

    The entire law (and prophets) according to Jesus as quoted in the Bible is summed up in Matthews 7:12. Jesus fulfilled that law and the ceremonial law of the sanctuary when He gave up His spirit and simultaneously the curtain was torn top to bottom.

    Why do you think I lie to myself and I am deceived when it is you who cannot read to comprehend the Christian Bible better than I with counsel from my Teacher? What proof do you have to judge even those judged Gnostic by intellectuals who did not know the Spirit, likened to the Sanhedrin who murdered God in the name of God?

  • Ed Senter

    Jesus was not murdered. He gave His life freely in order to fulfill the will of the Father. If Jesus had not died at the appointed time, all of mankind would have been lost forever and God would be a liar.
    Herm, you are no earthly good. You have become so “super-spiritual” that you have deceived yourself. You rely on just enough scripture to think you are fooling people, but you lack understanding just like your father Satan.

  • Herm

    … and by what and/or whose authority do you presume to make such mean spirited judgments?

    Edited: … but thank you for recognizing that I am no more earthly good than was my Brother Jesus!

  • Ed Senter

    I do not judge you, herm. You are judged by your own words.
    A brother is an equal. If you believe you are equal to Jesus, then you have fallen for a lie.

  • Herm

    But Jesus remained silent.

    The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”

    “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

    Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”

    “He is worthy of death,” they answered. Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him and said, “Prophesy to us, Messiah. Who hit you?”

    Matthew 26:63-68 (NIV2011)

    To the Sanhedrin just to be a child of God was blasphemous because they judged that such a recognition put such a life on an equal basis with God. You see they could not comprehend that God was, also, a Father, a Holy Spirit and many others born of the Spirit as children in God and God in them.

    Jesus never judged anyone on earth during His ministry. Jesus with all authority in heaven and on earth today is my judge, not you, and especially not my words for they come from my Teacher; albeit I am but an infant child repeating those words through very limited language to express the Spirit of God.

    Perhaps, in your Sunday or Sabbath school lessons you did not read to understand the full import of either of the following:

    Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”

    “Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”

    Mark 3:31-35 (NIV2011)

    While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.

    Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

    He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?”

    Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

    Matthew 12:46-50 (NIV2011)

    I am a disciple of Jesus who does my Father’s will which is the will of God bound by love in the Spirit of truth.

    If you believe you cannot be a brother or sister of Jesus today then you have fallen for a lie.

  • Ed Senter

    “I am a disciple of Jesus who does my Father’s will which is the will of God bound by love in the Spirit of truth.”
    Herm, you continue to spout absolute gibberish- esoteric gnostic circular nonsense.
    Do you believe you are equal to Jesus? They could crucify you and you would not save a gnat.

  • Herm

    You not only do not see the Holy Spirit in your midst but you cannot read what it says in the book you claim authority from.

    Perhaps, if you shared your evidence to backup your conjecture, please!

  • Ed Senter

    I do not mince words, herm.
    Do you believe you are equal to Jesus?

  • Herm

    I am equally loved by our Father in heaven. I am a little child and Jesus is my Lord.

    I am not mincing and have not minced words;

    What is your evidence to back up your conjecture?

    Do you believe Mark 3:31-35 and Matthew 12:46-50 clearly say that whoever does God’s will and whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is Jesus’ brother and sister and mother?

    You seem to have no idea that those who sentenced Jesus Christ to death in the name of God shared your prophesy that He “would not save a gnat“.

  • Ed Senter

    Satan believes he is equal to Jesus, too.
    Herm, you are an obtuse, intellectually dishonest blowhard. You do not understand scripture. Are you familiar with the law of the kinsman redeemer. If you did, you would understand those verses from Mark 3 and Matt 12.

  • Herm

    So Ed, explain Mark 3:31-35 and Matthew 12:46-50 for me.

    You can associate this the law of the kinsman redeemer, if you wish, to make it clear for me, please:

    “ ‘The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine and you reside in my land as foreigners and strangers. Throughout the land that you hold as a possession, you must provide for the redemption of the land.

    “ ‘If one of your fellow Israelites becomes poor and sells some of their property, their nearest relative is to come and redeem what they have sold. If, however, there is no one to redeem it for them but later on they prosper and acquire sufficient means to redeem it themselves, they are to determine the value for the years since they sold it and refund the balance to the one to whom they sold it; they can then go back to their own property. But if they do not acquire the means to repay, what was sold will remain in the possession of the buyer until the Year of Jubilee. It will be returned in the Jubilee, and they can then go back to their property.

    Leviticus 25:23-28 (NIV2011)

    Please Ed, help me and all others that might be reading our conversation.

  • Herm

    Ed, your reply is worth no more than bull dung to any who know the Teacher!

    The greatest among you will be your servant. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

    Matthew 23:11-12 (NIV2011)

    Who “is the greatest among you”“, Ed? For me it is my one Teacher, my one Instructor and my one Father, all as one God, who all serve me as Their child. They serve me because no little child is equipped to serve their self alone or their adult mentors. The master I serve is my school master who teaches me by example. So the most perfect question is, ” what would Jesus do?” If you knew the Teacher and the Instructor the answer would be clear immediately.

  • Ed Senter

    The book of Ruth is the law of the kinsman redeemer as applied. The law required that the redeemer be a kinsman, willing, and able to pay the price for redemption. Adam lost our inheritance for all of mankind- not only the land, but the connection to the source of life, the Father. Jesus became one of us as our kinsman. He was fully God and fully man. He gave himself willingly. He had the payment which was a perfect life. He paid the price voluntarily with His death. And all who call on the name of the Lord are saved.
    So, when Jesus asked, “who is My mother and who are my brothers?” He came for all of mankind and the only condition for this salvation is that you faith which is all God wants.
    “If you proclaim with the mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, then you will be saved.”
    But don’t think for a second that because Jesus Christ is our kinsman, that makes us His equal. We can not save ourselves. We can’t pay the price.

  • Ed Senter

    So God is your servant? Herm, you really are mixed up. Satan can quote scripture but he can not understand. The greatest lie came from the father of lies, “the day you eat of the tree, you will not die, you will know good and evil, and will be as God.”
    The two verses from Matt you quote mean that no man is greater than another. Whether a teacher of the Law or a super-spiritual numbnut like yourself, herm. In God’s eyes, all men are in the same boat. God is no respecter of persons. Hence, you can not save yourself. Jesus Christ is our Savior. He did not teach a lifestyle. He taught how to attain Life itself. Jesus Christ taught Himself. All those who have an ear to hear will faith on Him.
    Herm, you say Jesus is our “example”? Phooey. Herm, you could offer your life and not save a gnat. Only Jesus had the perfect life to pay as ransom. Therefore, the only question to ask ourselves is “what would Jesus have me do?” The answer, of course, is faith on Me. That is why Paul reinterated over and over again- “the just shall live by faith.”

  • Herm

    Ed, the greatest among those gathered was Jesus in Matthew 23:8-12.

    What children do you know who are expected to serve their parents better than their parents can serve them? What more do children have to offer their family than love as is the only expectation God has for us in order to inherit eternal life?

    What does Jesus ask of us that He has not already done himself? Why must I, as His disciple, pick up to carry my cross, in His example, if my life would not even save a gnat?

    Ed, it is you who does not know God. If you were immersed in the Spirit of truth you would understand that it is the Holy Spirit, once restricted to the Holy of Holies and released when the curtain was torn top to bottom when Jesus gave up His spirit on the cross, who is our salvation. There is no other Way to be born a child of God, none, zero.

    I live by, with and in God today. My faith is infinitely higher that They will provide for me, nurture me, love me, protect me, and teach me for an eternity than I had for my carnal parents as an adoring infant who knew no better.

    God is not contained in the Bible. The Bible is not the word of God. There is only one way to know the will of the Father and that is to be in the Father and the Father in you.

    Jesus did not teach himself as a Son of Man.

    As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

    Matthew 3:16-17 (NIV2011)

    ,,, and Mark 1:10, Luke 3:32, John 1:32.

    Without the Holy Spirit with and in you (immersed/baptized) you cannot be recognized as a child of God. Jesus had to be anointed by the Spirit of truth to be taught by the Father in order to fulfill His ministry during the remaining three years of His carnal life.

    So, yes, “what would Jesus do?” is one of the best ways to make a judgment as to what you would do, by His example. Of course, the best way of all is to simply ask Him yourself.

    Ed, you are not there yet but keep wrestling with God and, maybe, you too will become known as Israel. For certain you aren’t a qualified judge or teacher of or for God.

    Today what you do is in vain attempt to defend the lessons you learned from mankind that are not taught by God. Go to God to learn the truth, not your Bible or those who interpret your Bible for you. If you cannot find God to ask then your Bible lies. If you cannot trust God to protect you from evil with no more than Their relationship with you then your god is too impotent to be trusted with your life and certainly not worthy of your defense.

  • Herm

    That is simply empty fodder that feeds superstition and not a relationship with and in God. You are not a kinsman of Jesus without being 100% immersed in the Holy Spirit. If you were baptized by the Spirit of truth as God’s Advocate you would know that “Adam”, as well as the first two chapters of Genesis are purely metaphor. Adam did not fall from grace for Adam was an even less aware mankind species than we are today. God loves us as much as God loved Adam and we are graced as much or more than was Adam millenniums ago.

    God has, definitely relative to us from our beginning to now, omniscience and asks no more of us than we do as our youngest children playing together in a playground are expected to do to maintain our love and grace for them.

    Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.”

    But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

    As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

    Romans 10:5-13 (NIV2011)

    After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

    Acts 4:31 (NIV2011)

    Ed, sincerely in all humility, without the Bible or anyone else anywhere near you, call on the name of the Lord, please! Accept the Holy Spirit to immerse you in God and God in you that you may be saved from the destructive ignorance you have on display today. Don’t trust me, trust Him personally in you and you in Him. Then you will have the faith it takes to pick up your cross in His example that your enemy might live.

  • Ed Senter

    The spirit of anti-christ (substitute deliverer) is alive and well in this day, herm. You have swallowed his lies hook, line and sinker. You are really in for a suprise in the near future.
    Jesus said He will return. That will be as the Son of Man as prophesized by the prophet Daniel. At Christ’s departure, the angel told the disciples He would return in the same way- in the clouds. The Spirit is God’s mark of ownership on all who faith. The curtain was not torn to release the Spirit. The Spirit has always been present. How did the Spirit decend upon Jesus when John baptized Him if he was “behind the curtain”. No, the curtain was torn to symbolize man’s access to God was now unblocked because Jesus paid the price for our redemption.
    Herm, methinks that you really don’t understand why Jesus died on the cross. That is sad. You have such disdain for the “fundamentalist perverts” that you have thrown the baby out with the bathwater. And you are wrapped up within several heresies.

  • Herm

    No Ed, again you miss the Spirit in your midst and don’t comprehend the spirit that is God anymore than the Sanhedrin did with Christ before them. Your judgments are equally blind and damaging.

    “If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    John 14:15-21 (NIV2011)

    That day has not come for you. You don’t see Jesus. What exactly are Jesus’ commands and do you keep them? No more is asked! Jesus is here, I do see Him and I keep His commands!!!

  • Ed Senter

    A metaphor of what?
    God communioned daily with Adam and Eve. Adam was probably smarter than any man now alive. There was only one conditioned placed on Adam. “Eat not from the tree of good and evil or from the tree of life. Because in the day you do, you will surely die.” Adam chose to no longer faith in God and believed the lie of the devil- “you shall know good and evil and be as God.” Man has been dying ever since and has gotten dumber. However, since the foundation of the world, God had a failsafe redemption plan in the person of Jesus Christ. The first prophecy in the Bible is that the seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent, and His heal would be bruised.
    As far as the law is concerned, it was given to prove the devil wrong. You can know good and evil and still not do it. It was never meant to be kept by man. That is the meaning of the offerings and vicarious sacrifice. They were substitutes for the real thing- which is Christ. Jesus did not come to do away with the law or the prophets. He came to fulfill them. Hence, before the resurrection, Jesus was our kinsman. After the resurrection, He is our Lord. herm, if you believe you are equal to Jesus, that would be blasphemy.
    The only way to have a relationship with God is by FAITH. Faith come by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Prophecy is an integral part of that word.
    Herm says, “Then you will have the faith it takes to pick up your cross in His example that your enemy might live.”
    What do you mean by this? Methinks you have gone off the deep end into the abyss of lies.

  • Ed Senter

    “What about you?” he asked them. “Who do you say I am? Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the Living God.” Matt 16:15,16
    That is the TRUTH. His command is that we believe in Him.
    Herm, you keep spewing out that gnostic nonsense.
    Obi Wan Kenobi says, “The force be with you, Luke.” Herm, you appear to be stuck in some Star War myth. That is not how the Spirit works.

  • Herm

    Ed, Adam and Eve were mankind before 9,000 years ago all hunter gathers The entire earth was populated by mankind by this time. Cain and Able are the spawn of mankind who became farmers and ranchers supplying the settlements (cities) of what we call civilization that began 9,000 years ago in the Fertile Crescent. Each metaphor representing the relationship between the finite physical animal species of mankind on earth and the infinite spirit “God” in heaven.

    Genesis was written beginning with the superstitious fireside stories Moses heard as a child and compiled to chronicle as an educated Jewish man.

    The only way to have a relationship with that infinite spirit God today is to be immersed in the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit immersed in you. For those who have not experienced such a spirit bond with and in God we can only testify that this is true and challenge our brethren in mankind to seek it for themselves devoid of all the poisonous traditions of mankind. Consider yourself challenged, we do!

  • Herm

    Well Ed, you parsed the hell into that Bible quote. You neglected to include the most significant part …

    Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

    Matthew 16:17 (NIV2011)

    … which makes it clear that you are still only working on what is revealed by flesh and blood.

    God is real but the representation you try to judge by and defend is pure fantasy because you do not know God personally. You try to make God magic which is only a form of slight of hand when God is truly right in your face and upfront honest if only you allow Them to be within your ability to comprehend. As Their little child please forgive me for exceeding your ability to comprehend reality; physical, social and spiritual.

  • Ed Senter

    Suprise!- Moses was not a Jew. Moses was a Levite.
    herm, there is only one Spirit. You claim to have this Spirit, yet you deny the same Spirit to guide Moses in his writings. I am confident that you are a liar, herm, and are deceived by whatever spirit you attest. There are probably many floating around in your head.

  • Ed Senter

    No, the point of the post was JESUS CHRIST IS THE TRUTH. Yes, the Father revealed that to him just like Jesus said. Herm, you keep harping about the “spirit of truth”. Well, the next section from Matt 16, Jesus was revealing that He would go to Jerusalem and be put to death and the third day rise to life. The same man-Peter- whom the Father revealed the truth about Jesus being the Messiah rebuked him. “God forbid it, Lord!” he said. “This must never happen to you!” Jesus turned around and said to Peter: “GET BEHIND ME SATAN…” Matt 16:23
    So the same man whom the Father revealed truth, was also deceived to by Satan.
    Herm, you are a pervayer of half-truths and gnostic nonsense. You are clearly deceived.

  • Herm

    Ed, you are again leaving out the most important piece of scripture, “You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns“.

    You accuse me of half-truths when you leave out half the scripture. Peter did not yet have the Spirit of truth as the Advocate from the Father to replace Jesus’ teaching. Jesus said the Holy Spirit could not come until Jesus left, Hence the curtain torn top to bottom after Jesus’ last breath.

    Apparently you don’t care that this is well beyond your ability to comprehend without being immersed in the Holy Spirit forever without pause. You still base all your arguments on human concerns.

  • Herm

    Where did I deny the same Spirit to guide Moses? Why do you assume that the Holy Spirit shares beyond what each of us can relate to? I am certain Moses wasn’t quite ready to compose from what was in his heart and mind the science behind the big bang.

    Your infantile protestations against what you do not know place me in excellent company, thank you!

    Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?”

    But Jesus remained silent.

    The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”

    “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

    Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”

    “He is worthy of death,” they answered. Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him and said, “Prophesy to us, Messiah. Who hit you?”

    Matthew 26:62-68 (NIV2011)

    I have not lied to you. What might you think I deserve?

  • Ed Senter

    Apparently, herm, what I have that you don’t have is the spirit of discernment. You continue to spout gnostic nonsense as if you have some super-spiritual connection. You are deceived.
    Jesus did not say “the Holy Spirit could not come until Jesus left”. No, Jesus said that when He left they would not be alone. The Holy Spirit would be their helper. The Holy Spirit has always been present from the very beginning. The Holy Spirit merely manifested itself on Pentecost which was the birth of the Church. That was 50 days after the veil was rent. That was 10 days after Jesus Christ left and ascended into heaven.
    Jesus did say, however, that the anti-christ could not arrive until He left. So you have it all mixed up which is your MO, herm- deception.
    And for further proof that the Holy Spirit is not some special power ala, “the force be with you, Luke”, nonsense: Soon after Pentacost there were schisms in the church. Why did Jesus Christ call Paul if the original apostles had all of this “spirit of truth” to quide them? If it were not for Paul and his teachings, christianity would have just died as a Jewish sect. No, Paul took the message to the gentiles and revealed the gospel of Christ. Jesus Christ is the sole truth. Everything goes through Christ.

  • Herm

    Ed, you don’t know even what the Bible says much less the Spirit says when you say to me that, “You are deceived. Jesus did not say “the Holy Spirit could not come until Jesus left”.

    I am sorry that this is so long but I really sense you need to actually take the time to read this whole scripture in context, please!

    I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them. I did not tell you this from the beginning because I was with you, but now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things. But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: about sin, because people do not believe in me; about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

    John 16:4-11 (NIV2011)

    Ed, nothing has been revealed to you by the Spirit of God relevant to your life today. All that you argue with is what someone has read into the Bible for you. The following is real for those today who are in the Spirit:

    We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    However, as it is written: “What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived”— the things God has prepared for those who love him— these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

    1 Corinthians 2:6-16 (NIV2011)

    Ed, read your Bible if you will but then take what it says and ask for the Spirit in your life without pause or end. Right now, it is so clear that you do not understand the words taught by the Spirit today.

  • Ed Senter

    A liar will always claim not to be a liar.
    Herm, whatever you deserve, I will leave to God.

  • Snooterpoot

    Herm has nothing to fear from God.

  • Herm

    I am in God as I write to you. You cannot discern the truth because you are not in the Spirit of truth nor He in you. I don’t think you lie from what you know but what you know to share and argue with is a lie. Caiaphas didn’t lie by what he knew but he called Jesus a liar and a blasphemer all the same. This always brings up Jesus’ famous last words:

    Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

  • Ed Senter

    herm, I study the whole Bible. Not like you, who only picks and pecks for out-of-context verses that you believe support your super-spiritual gnostic nonsense.
    I have the Spirit. What you have- I don’t know.
    When Paul spoke of the Spirit it was always in contrast to those who were constantly going back to the law and the flesh. If you are in Christ- you are in the Spirit. If you go back to law- you are in the flesh.
    Tell me, herm, from your own quote, when did this happen? “When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: about sin, because people do not believe in me; about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.”
    This has not happened yet. It is yet to come, but in the near future, the nation of Israel will confirm a peace treaty with the man of perdition (Daniel’s 70th week) then the Spirit will testify as to the truth in Christ. Put this in the context of Matt 24 and Mark 13 where it belongs. ../Mark-13-11/But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

  • Herm

    This is a repeat, this is a repeat, this a repeat …

    After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

    Acts 4:31 (NIV2011)

    Oh, wait, wasn’t there something else reported, wait, it’s coming to me, oh, something called Pentecost! Was that it?

    Ed, the Advocate is here and us children of God are not left orphaned!

    Jesus, is here for all those who are immersed in the Holy Spirit. Jesus has chartered all His disciples to baptize in the name of the Father and …

    Baptize means no more than to immerse as in the name of the Father and the name of the Son and the name of the Holy Spirit which is God.

    Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

    Matthew 28:18-20 (NIV2011)

    How do you think Jesus can be with us always, to the very end of the age?

    Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

    John 14:19-20 (NIV2011)

    What do you think “before long” means in the Son of Man talk?

    You didn’t clear your heart and clear your mind to read the scripture I shared with you because that is where you keep telling me you know God only there. You didn’t invite the Spirit of truth to guide you even if only temporarily to come to the truth.

    You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

    John 5:39-40 (NIV2011)

    Not one word of the New Testament had been written when Jesus is quoted to have said that. The Holy Spirit filled (immersed) those who prayed between those words of Jesus and the words written in the New Testament.

    Why are you so hard headed as to not read what you say is gospel before you judge others in the Spirit?

  • Ed Senter

    Like I said in the very beginning of this conversation- YOU ARE SO SPIRITUALLY MINDED THAT YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY NO EARTHLY GOOD.
    herm, I have the Spirit. I know Christ. I walk by faith. You mock my study of the Bible to your detriment.
    I note that you can not answer any of my direct questions and you choose to just spout more esoteric gnostic nonsense. You boast yourself and special knowlege. I boast Christ Jesus.

  • Herm

    …. you boast your ignorance …

    Tell me, herm, from your own quote, when did this happen?answered

  • Ed Senter

    No, you did not answer. You began to ramble again about how “spiritual” you are.
    Was “the world proved wrong” at Pentecost? No, Pentecost was the birth of the church.
    At this present time, 2017, never has there been so much disarray. There is only a fraction of the world that has even heard about Jesus Christ. Most of the world is lost and knows not the front from the back. There are even more factions within the church itself.
    No, herm, there is coming a time when the House of Judah and the House of Israel will cry out to the Lord and the Kingdom will be ushered in. I am surprised that with your personal connection to the “spirit” you have not been apprised of the future facts.
    No verse of scripture is subject to private interpretation, herm. Scripture will prove itself.

  • Herm

    Ed I wrote you this:

    Ed, the Advocate is here and us children of God are not left orphaned!

    here” means now! Just because you only know Him as did Judas and Caiaphas does not a judgment make in God’s heart and mind.

    The birth of the church, upon which it stands on spirit and in spirit, was fully dependent upon the Holy Spirit as it’s foundation of rock, not sand.

    Oh, I know the future facts much more clearly than you. I used to teach prophesy as an authorized and educated SDA Elder before the Spirit of truth became my only teacher and I became only a little child sibling disciple of Christ Jesus with and in God.

    There are those who are immersed in the Advocate who are not noted as Christians on earth today. Chew on that for a moment.

  • Ed Senter

    Herm, I am so sorry for you. You go from one cult to whatever you stand for now. The SDA sound so educated but they are so silly. They force all prophecy into a historicist frame.
    Why can’t you just communicate as a normal human being instead of some super-spiritual wacko? You don’t have any “special” spiritual connection to God unless your connection is to the god of this world.

  • Herm

    Ed, thank you for your concern. So far you haven’t shared anything but U.S. American theology and doctrine from organized religions no more credible than was the Sanhedrin. It is wrong to assume that those in the Spirit of God, as your Bible says but you ignore, are any more special than any disciple of Christ.

    The Lord took me to the good SDA people for several reasons and our relationship was reciprocal sharing which I cannot say the same for yours and my relationship. I had already been educated and ministered within the Presbyterian church, also good people. As a SDA I learned that diet counts, we all must have a Sabbath each week set aside to pay attention to our family of God relationship, and I quit smoking/tobacco that I had been addicted to for 28 years. The study and prison ministries that I shared was a great help.

    I am so sorry for you that you can only see “silly” others who don’t call on the Lord the same as you. If I have called you such it was not intentional. I believe you are serving up the best you have to offer no matter how misguided it is to lead to the Gospel.

    Go your way if this is all you have, please. It is worth nothing for in your mind you have chosen to waste the last 1,984 years for all of mankind as though God has done nothing since with mankind. I have not wasted all those years for in them God has truly been active more than all the time before Jesus. I could see the hand of God working 33 years before I became a child born of God. God is not dead. You wait for Jesus to return when He is right there waiting for you to come to Him.

    You offer nothing to help us here for all of us have read the same Bible as you and the many of you who have been invited. The few chosen because they do in reality love the Lord their God, who they know, with all their spirit self and their good neighbor as themselves know better, much better, than what you are only wishing and hoping for at some unknown date in the future.

    I have had enough from you especially since the most you do is call me negative names, threaten me with some kind of retaliation from the God you do not know, and have no more supporting evidence than you can muster beyond your mortal logic and probably family support.

    I bid you farewell and ask that your shake the sand off your feet on the way out, please. Your time is short, don’t waste it on me, but thank you anyway for your precious time.

    If you realize the Spirit in you 100% full time then please come back and share. The I can support you as we here support each other in love and respect.

  • Ed Senter

    The Spirit is in me “100% full time”, herm. Apparently, it is not the same spirit as yours.
    If you had read any of my posts, they are no where near what you understand convential christianity to be. I seek only to learn the truth. All you have offered is some super-spiritual nonsense about “letting the spirit in”.
    I will leave you with this. No man is good. Only God is good.

  • Helping refugees is one thing; letting them in and eventually giving them citizenship to vote Democrat and push for moral relativism and central government intervention in my life is another. See you in hell. I’ll bring the meat and refreshments. Your lack of common sense will definitely lead you there eventually.

  • Bones

    When you actively support civil wars than you have to face up to the responsibility of accepting the consequences.

    Good to see your more concerned about party politics.

  • Party politics shape the future of the country and that of my family in it. I am very concerned about party politics and do not understand why it is not for you. As to “actively supporting civil war” I am not of the opinion that the US is reponsible for that war even though Obama dealt with it in the only way that an emasculated leader can; with sheer ineptness.

  • otrotierra

    #ThingsJesusNeverSaid

  • Bones

    Jesus congratulates you for your love of party politics.

    The US supplied Syrian rebels with its weapons in its quest for regime change.

    And now you whinge and moan that the people your government has helped to drive out, might end up near you.

    It’s good to see the priorities of right wing Christians.

    Only thinking of themselves.

  • Rabbit

    How many illegal Mexicans have you invited to live in *your* home, Dr. Corey?

  • Adrian

    For that matter, even the raging asshole that is OT God does NOT look kindly upon lack of charity or hospitality: just look at what he (allegedly) did to Sodom and Gomorrah for these sins :P