Interview with Author Shane Wood

The following is an interview with author Shane Wood regarding his book Thinning the Veil: Encountering Jesus Christ in the Book of Revelation.

Over the last 50 years, there have been an estimated 2,000 to 5,000 books published on the book of Revelation in English. Why did you feel the need to add another book to the lot? 

Shane Wood: I believe Revelation has been misunderstood and abused in the church. We’ve reduced this beautiful book about Jesus into a cosmic jigsaw puzzle that we cut and splice to figure out the future. The vast majority of those 2,000 to 5,000 books will, without question, do the same and promise, “This time, in this book, the future will be unveiled.” My book makes no such promises. Instead, I thought it time to ask Revelation a different question: “Where do I see Jesus in the text?”

It’s interesting because the first five words of the book of Revelation state what it wants to talk about: “The Revelation of Jesus Christ.” Yet, we typically study the book of Revelation not to get to know Jesus better but to figure out when the rapture is going to happen or who the antichrist might be. In Thinning the Veil, though, I argue that Revelation has a different target than our questions surmise. A bigger target than mere prediction. You. The transformation of the reader. 

When someone hears about a book and they ask, “What is your book about?” what they are really asking is, “What’s in it for me?” In other words, what will I get out of reading your book? What is the pay off for my time and energy and the cost of the book? What’s in it for me? Please answer that question for readers. What’s in it for them?

Shane Wood: I believe biblical study is at its best when we use tools to unearth the text while at the same time allowing the text to unearth us. A mutual study—studying the Word of God with vulnerability and commitment to allowing the Word of God to study me.

In Thinning the Veil: Encountering Jesus Christ in the Book of Revelation, I employ basic tools of interpretation (e.g., historical background, context, word studies, etc.) to allow the text to come alive. To position the reader to encounter the Christ who longs to do more than just predict something, but who longs to transform the reader themselves.

As a result, Thinning the Veil explores the contours of Revelation to find Christ’s promise and call to “draw near,” close enough to not just save us but to heal us from all that’s broken.

Give us two or three “aha!” moments that came to you when you were doing the research for the book, things that really impressed you that you didn’t know before.

Shane Wood: I really tried to write this book by not just studying the text but by descending into the text and viewing the world through the eyes of the author and the audience. At the end of the first century, Christians were in conflict with the Roman Empire. John had been exiled on the island of Patmos, and the churches of Asia Minor (to whom Revelation was written) were without their pastor, searching for God in the shadow of the empire.

I was struck when I realized: Revelation begins with loneliness. John is on the island of Patmos alone and lonely. The churches are orphaned and without their pastor—alone and lonely. And in the midst of this loneliness, Jesus draws near, dispelling their loneliness and the notion that the veil between heaven and earth is impermeable. Instead, Jesus reveals the veil is quite thin.

This thread of God’s pursuit of humanity shrouded in despair, struggling and straining to see and be seen, weaves its way through all twenty-two chapters. Some of us cower from the divine gaze clinging instead to our disobedience, while others wonder if God sees us at all. Revelation dispels this mystery with powerful images of God’s presence in and among his people, calling them to reach and touch him.

In fact, I was struck when, in my research for this book, I re-read Revelation 1:17-18, and I thought: “Oh my goodness, this summarizes the entire book of Revelation with one short scene.”

John is on the island of Patmos alone, when Jesus appears, shattering the phantasm of loneliness. Overwhelmed, John “falls down at Jesus’ feet as though dead,” only for Jesus to cross the chasm, reaching out and placing “his right hand” on John (1:17), whispering the remarkable command, “Don’t be afraid” (1:18). Why? Because Jesus has overcome death with life, sin with resurrection, loneliness with divine presence.

I’ve made the statement that the Christian world has a convenient waste disposal. It’s called the Millennium. Any Scripture we don’t know what to do with we put into the Millennium, LOL. Give us your view on the Millennium.

Shane Wood: I totally agree. The “1,000-year reign” (i.e., Millennium) is only referenced in ten verses in Revelation (20:1-10), and yet, for many, it dominates discussions and imaginations in most books written by “prophecy experts.” Every eclipse or blood red moon sends people scurrying for their prophetic roadmaps to see if the rapture is near or the tribulation unfolding or, ultimately, how close we are to the Millennial reign. But this obsession misses the point of Revelation altogether.

Now, on one level, I understand this craving. This desire to “crack the millennial code,” because, on some level, all of us desire for our lives to have significance. To have unique meaning. And what could be meaningful than to live in the time period when Jesus returns? Or still better, to be the one to discern that Christ’s coming is upon us?

Christians long for significance, and we long, like all humans, to be released from the bondage of suffering. In some sense, then, the pursuit for the Millennium in the tea-leaves of Revelation’s images satisfies both cravings. Both longings. Yet this pursuit overlooks some significant elements that Revelation is trying to communicate.

First, Revelation never seems to indicate that we are waiting for Christ or his kingdom to reign. No, Revelation argues that, for those with eyes to see and ears to hear, Jesus’ kingdom is reigning right now.

In the first several verses of the book, Revelation unveils Jesus as “the ruler of the kings of the earth” (1:5) who has, by his sacrifice, transformed us, the church, into “a kingdom and priests” (1:6). Yet, it is a kingdom that is characterized as reigning through “suffering” and “patient endurance” (1:9). A kingdom that conquers the dragon “by the blood of the Lamb” and by Christians willing to live their lives in the shape of the cross (12:11).

The dissonance comes not in the revelation but in the interpretation. In the definition of key words. Often, we understand “victory” or “reigning” in terms more fit for the empire of Rome than for the kingdom of the slain Lamb (5:6). Devastation or execution is how we envision “winning;” subjugation and deportation is how we envision “reigning.”

Yet we must remember: Revelation was written to real people at a real time going through real issues. People, like you and me, who were struggling to make sense of Christ’s victory and Rome’s reign. Straining to see God in the midst of their trials and tribulations that even had resulted in some being executed for their commitment to Christ (2:13). People, like you and me, who felt distant from God, separated in their suffering, and struggling to see how what is happening could, in any way, be understood as “winning,” more or less “reigning.”

Revelation, though, pulls back the veil, allowing the onlooker to see more clearly. To see the pain and peril of earth from a divine vantage. From a divine perspective that unveils suffering not as defeat but as victory (13:10), that envisions the cross not as failure but as reigning (12:11).

In other words, much of the issue with the Millennium or the “1,000-year reign” is that it is shaped in our image, in the image of vengeance, in the mold of the empire, instead of being shaped by the cross of Jesus Christ. The crucifixion that inaugurated the ascension of our King who sits at the right hand of the Father not waiting for his kingdom to come to power but who reigns over sin and death as the “firstborn from the dead” (1:5).

As a result, I see the “Millennium” as a description of the time period between Christ’s first coming and his second coming, at this point stretching beyond its second millennia. A time period filled with a dragon raging in fury “because he knows his time is short” (12:12), yet limited in his ability to overcome the slain Lamb (12:11) and those bold enough to “follow the Lamb wherever he goes” (14:4), even if that means to a cross. For through the Revelation of Jesus Christ, the mystery concealed since the foundation of the earth (13:8) has been unveiled: when we suffer, we win. 

There are a number of depictions in the book of Revelation that are violent and disturbing, which some say don’t match the rest of the New Testament. What would you say to them to help them get their heads around these depictions of wrath? 

Shane Wood: It is definitely true that the imagery in the book of Revelation is alarming, at times, at least on the surface. There are threads, however, that even in the midst of violent imagery, the ferocious tenderness of God still shines through.

For example, the first six trumpets in Revelation 8:6-9:21 are vivid depictions of torture and punishment. But as you peer deeper into the picture being painted, God isn’t merely enacting one of Dante’s circles of hell. He is in pursuit of evil by allowing evil to be fully exposed. Let me explain.

In Revelation 9:20-21, the end of the sixth trumpet demonstrates the goal of all that has unfolded. It says, “And the rest of mankind who were not killed in these plagues still did not repent of the deeds of their hands nor stop worshiping demons…Nor did they repent of their murders or their sorcery or their sexual immorality or their thefts.” In other words, the goal of the trumpets was not punishment but a pursuit. The goal was not the torture of evil but the redemption of evil.

The imagery plays this out in several ways. First, the third trumpet envisions “Wormwood” descending, making the waters “bitter,” and results in many people dying because they consumed the “bitter” water (Rev. 8:10-11). What’s odd about this, though, is that “wormwood” is actually a medicinal herb used in the ancient world to heal people who’d become sick from parasites contracted from impure water. So, what’s happening here?

The image shows evil receiving what ought to heal as a poison that destroys. Similarly, when love became flesh, when light came to the darkness, when God became flesh, evil didn’t receive this as a gift of redemption but as a threat that deserved to be murdered. Crucified, even. Why? Because as an abused dog cowers from the hand extended to pet, so too does evil respond to God’s grace as poison.

Second, in the fifth trumpet (9:1-12), God offers evil a chance to unfurl, to completely saturate the earth without even the bounds of hell holding in the greatest evils. The “key to the Abyss” is handed over to evil (9:1), and evil opens the gates of hell pouring forth scorpion-locusts hell-bent on destruction (9:2-4a, 7-10). And who do they torture? Their own. Evil attacking evil (9:4b-6).

This imagery, although appalling, is important in the Revelation of Jesus Christ because it clearly unveils evil. Disrobes the character and nature of hell and those that belong to them. These creatures are so discipled by death that even when they are set free, they violently pursue their own. They viciously attack those that already bow their knee to evil.

This same message is apparent elsewhere. For example, the Gerasene demoniac (Mk. 5:1-20) is a person fully possessed by evil. And yet, evil doesn’t reward this devotion with gratitude or embrace but with violence, isolation, and self-harm. The demoniac lives in a cemetery (Mk. 5:3), isolated from any other human (Mk. 5:3-4), and is cutting himself with stones (Mk. 5:5). Evil destroying evil, because evil knows no other grammar outside of death and destruction.

Thus, the violent imagery of Revelation is often interpreted without nuance or precision. The threads of God’s grace, though, persist, even as evil is clearly unveiled. 

How do you understand the seven trumpets, seven seals, and seven vials/bowls working together? Are they sequential, recapitulative, circular, etc.? 

Shane Wood: I discuss this in more detail in chapter 7 of Thinning the Veil, but in short, the book of Revelation takes the reader to the end of the world (at minimum) seven times. The seals, trumpets, and bowls are three of these times. And with each revolution, with each “end of the world” cycle, the Revelation of Jesus Christ speaks an unfolding message of hope and sacrifice. Let me explain.

The sixth seal (6:12-17) takes the reader to the end of the world before an interlude interrupts the narrative, for the seventh seal isn’t torn open until Revelation 8:1-5. This interlude, though, is intentional, for between the sixth and seventh element of each set of seven (seals, trumpets, and bowls) there is an interruption that contains a message.

For the seals, the interlude begins after this haunting question: “…the great day of God’s wrath has come, and who can stand?” (6:17). The purpose of the “seals interlude” is to answer this question with a resounding: you can, Christian! To Christians struggling under the empire of Rome, suffering with hope that’s struggling, such a message is empowering, emboldening, Christ-centering.

For the trumpets, the interlude stretches from the beginning of chapter 10 through Revelation 11:14. The scene is dominated by the vision of the two witnesses who are killed in Jerusalem (11:7-8), resurrected to life three and a half days later (11:11), and then ascend to heaven on a cloud (11:12). Why? Because in Revelation, Christ-followers embody the narrative of Christ. Taken together, then, the seals and trumpets announce: you are spiritually secure, Christian (i.e., seals), so get out there and witness (i.e., trumpets).

For the bowls, the interlude is quite small in comparison, red letters inserted between the sixth and seventh bowls in a single verse: “Behold! I come like a thief. Blessed is the one keeping watch and remaining clothed, so as not to go around naked and shamefully exposed” (16:15).

The key to this final piece of the “sets of seven” message is clothing. In Revelation, clothing (or lack thereof) is connected to ethics or “what you do.” So, in Revelation 19:8, the bride of Christ is prepared for her bride, dressed in “fine linen,” which the verse defines as “the righteous acts of the saints” (19:8). Thus, when Jesus pronounces a blessing over those who “remain clothed” in the bowls interlude, he is saying this: you are spiritually secure (i.e., seals), so get out there and witness (i.e., trumpets) by what you do (i.e., bowls)!

Like prophets of old, then, the seals/trumpets/bowls compose a call to Christians to live and die like Christ. A call to repent of wrongdoing, to reject any compromise, and to patiently endure come what may. 

What’s this business about Satan being bound and then released for a short time? When do you believe this happens (or has happened). Provide compelling evidence for your view. 

Shane Wood: There are several components at play in this scene that are important to keep in mind. First of all, “bound” doesn’t mean “eradiated;” “bound” means “limited” or “constrained.” Thus, what’s being depicted isn’t Satan absent of any ministry, for even though Paul was bound and imprisoned he was still able to write half of the New Testament. No, “bound” means “not able to do what you were once able to do.”

Second, the imagery of the binding angel holding a “key” (Rev. 20:1) is not incidental. The first time “key” (i.e., a symbol for sovereignty or authority) surfaces in Revelation is in 1:17-18.

As I mentioned above, in 1:17, John falls down “as though dead” at the feet of the resurrected Christ visiting John on Patmos. Tenderly, Jesus reaches out and touches the lonely apostle, whispering the command, “Don’t be afraid.” Why? Because of who Jesus is.

Jesus emphasizes his identity by rehearsing his story of redemption: “I am the First and the Last. The Living One. I was dead (i.e., crucifixion), but look! I am alive—for ever and ever (i.e., resurrection)” (1:17b-18a). He explains further that the cross and resurrection secured sovereignty over evil: “And I possess the keys of Death and of Hades” (1:18). Thus, the first time “key” is used is in connection with the authority of Jesus Christ attained at the cross and the empty tomb.

The same is true in Revelation 20:1. The angel is holding a “key,” which stands for the authority of Christ secured by his death and resurrection. Events that, while they didn’t eradicate Satan and his kingdom, severely limited them. For now, because truth became flesh (Jn. 14:6), lies could no longer persist and imprison humanity. Because redemption had ripped the veil separating heaven and earth (Mt. 27:51), Satan’s hold on humanity was stripped of its power.

Yes, Satan is bound. Yet, if we follow sin’s path, we will waltz into the realm of Satan’s violent grasp unaware of the prowling lion waiting to devour us. Shackled? Sure. Eradicated? Not at all. 

Have you gotten any push back so far from critics? If so, what where their criticisms and what is your reply to them?

Shane Wood: Most of the criticism of Thinning the Veil centers on my refusal to “predict.” Many come to the book of Revelation asking, “When will the world end?” But this misses the point. The point is not prediction of the future but transformation of the reader.

This is the same point Jesus was trying to make in Matthew 24:36ff. Describing the second coming, Jesus says, “About that day or hour, no one knows! Not the angels in heaven, not the Son, but only the Father” (Matt. 24:36). So, at some point, I think it wise for us to stop trying to outdo Jesus. If he couldn’t predict his second coming, then I’m quite certain we won’t be able to either.

In fact, there isn’t a single command in the New Testament for Christians to predict. Not one. But there are commands to love our neighbor (Matt. 22:39), to love our enemies (Matt. 5:43-45a), and clear calls to love the “least of these” (Matt. 25:31-46).

And Revelation is no different. Revelation doesn’t want us to predict the future but to live in the present as the hands and feet of Jesus Christ. Revelation understands the perils and struggles of the present, understands the loneliness that tempts us to fight for ourselves instead of sacrifice for others. And yet, Revelation is uncompromising in its call, in its demand for us to “overcome” the dragon by living our lives in the shape of Christ’s cross (Rev. 12:11).

I guess, then, my response to the criticism is simply this: prediction is too small a target for a book as Christ-centered as Revelation. Transformation of the rebellious, comfort for the forlorn, repentance for those who’ve wandered away—this is the goal of Revelation. This is the goal of redemption. This is the goal of Jesus Christ. 

The book of Revelation reveals Jesus Christ. Out of all the different aspects it reveals about Him, which one touches and moves you the most personally? Provide the reference (chapter and verse) so readers can go there and look also. 

Shane Wood: In Revelation 21:1-7, God gets giddy. Yes, because the “new heavens and new earth” have come (21:1), and yes, because death’s end has come, shattering the plague of pain and grief and weeping (21:4). But even more so, God is giddy because here, in this restored Eden (22:1-3), he is once again able to be with us and us with him.

In Revelation 21:3, he explodes with exclamation, “Look! The dwelling place of God is now with humankind, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and will be their God.” Over and over, he repeats the same excitement, “Those who conquer will inherit all of these things, and I will be their God and they will be my children” (21:7).

I get overwhelmed just thinking about this. I mean, what kind of God is this? What kind of God gets giddy about drawing near to me? What kind of King wants to spend time with me? What kind of Lord literally silences heaven to listen to me pray (Rev. 8:1-4)? The kind of God who was willing to become flesh, dwell among us, and live and die for me just so that, for eternity, we can celebrate the beauty of the word “with.”

Yes, the Revelation of Jesus Christ is filled with many images that move me personally throughout the entire book of Revelation. But this one? The one God chose to end this terrifyingly beautiful story? That one strikes me silent. For I often struggle to want to be near to myself, but God? He gets giddy at the idea. Which is, in the end, the pulse of the Gospel, I guess. 

Where can readers get a copy of your book? 

Shane Wood: In short, wherever books are sold � However, there are a couple of places that I’ll highlight:

• IVP Academic – You can buy Thinning the Veil directly from the publisher (especially if you are wanting to place a bulk order).
• Amazon – You can also purchase it from the “one-stop-shop” Amazon, which includes multiple formats such as Kindle and Audible versions.
• Logos Bible Software – If you use Logos Bible Software, then you can also purchase Thinning the Veil as a part of your digital library.
• My Website – You can also purchase the book through my website, which also includes hundreds of hours of lecture on multiple books of the Bible for free!

One final thing: at the end of each chapter in Thinning the Veil there are three unique components which makes studying the book in small groups or churchwide extremely accessible.

• A Tool – As seen on RightNow Media, through a series of videos, I teach through key interpretative principles that help any student on any level to read Revelation themselves. Each “tool” is accompanied by a series of discussion questions fit for both individual and group settings.
• A Text – Similarly, I offer an additional set of videos that teaches through the text of Revelation supplementing the insights found in the chapter of the book. As before, each “text” is accompanied by a series of discussion questions fit for both individual and group settings.
• A Takeaway – Each chapter also includes a spiritual practice that positions the reader to not just read the text but to allow the text to read them.

Through it all, my heart is for the reader to no longer fear the book of Revelation, but to mine this rich, last book of the Bible to encounter Jesus Christ—our risen, crucified King.