Deporting homeschoolers

Homeschoolers seek asylum from Nazi-era law
‘We left family, our home … but the freedom is worth it’
Published: 11/17/2008

This story has been ongoing for a long time. It’s a disgrace, that anyone should have to endure such pain.

Achtung! Germany drags homeschool kids to class
Authorities haul crying children away to avoid ‘danger’ from parental teachings
“A Nazi-era law requiring all children to attend public school, to avoid “the emergence of parallel societies based on separate philosophical convictions” that could be taught by parents at home, apparently is triggering a Nazi-like response from police.

The word comes from Netzwerk Bildungsfreiheit, or Network for Freedom in Education, which confirmed that children in a family in Bissingen, in the state of Baden-Wuerttemberg, have been forcibly hauled to a public school.

“On Friday 20 October 2006 at around 7:30 a.m. the children of a home educating family … were brought under duress to school by police,” the organization, which describes itself as politically and religiously neutral, confirmed.

http://www.wnd.com/2006/10/38535/

Between Operation Fast and Furious, the legal justification for the extra judicial killing of US citizens, and now this, the USAG strikes me as a wicked man, or at least a man acting like a wicked tyrant.

“What is there about this case, do you think, that makes the administration want to get rid of these people?”

As Euro-socialist wannabes they want to avoid calling out their heroes for political perscution. Why would administration hacks want to embarrass those they idolize? The current administration would love nothing better than to behave in the same manner.

HEY! Asylum is just another word for amnesty! Let ’em get in line like anyone else! Look at that family. Lots of kids; don’t want to follow the rules; probably just want to go on welfare…

Oh wait…they’re white…never mind… 😉

Seriously, though, I wish these people all the best. But this wouldbroaden our concept of “persecution” as used in immigration law. And that would allow more people from more places to successfully apply for asylum.

One thing should be made clear, Dr. Veith. These people ar NOT “legal immigrants”. The entered as visitors on August 17, 2008, and were given permission to stay until November 15, 2008. To enter is that status, an alien must declare that he/she has a domicile in his/her home country which he/she has no intention of abandonning. In this case any such statement was almost certainly not true.

http://www.hslda.org/hs/international/Germany/
RomeikeBrief.pdf

On November 17, 2008, after the Romeikes had been illegal aliens for 2 days, they filed applicaions requesting political asylum. This is a form of relief applied for only by illegal aliens, because legal aliens have no need for it. They are already “legal”. An asylum applicant says, essentially, “I am not a legal alien, but I want permission to stay anyway, because I will be ‘persecuted’ in my home country if I am forced to go back.” The Romeikes made their application in the Immigration Court in Memphis, TN, which is a place in which a more sympathetic (on this issue) judge would be more likely to be found than in many other places Immigration Judges sit.

Again, don’t get me wrong. I want them to win. But let’s not mischaracterize who these people are and what they are asking.

The Obama administration is friendly to immigrants who would be more likely to be potential Democrat voters. They also are in bed, so to speak, with teachers’ unions who hate, hate, hate homeschooling,and charter schools and private schools or anything else that infringes on their turf. Who cares if the kids learn anything useful, like reading or math or God forbid social studies (unless the U.S. is the bad guy in every chapter)?

“What is there about this case, do you think, that makes the administration want to get rid of these people?” It seems obvious to me that it’s the beginning of a legal precedent. In the same way that “religious freedom” was phased out in favor of “freedom to worship,” a subtle change is taking place in our right to home school our children and the “right” of the state to indoctrinate our children. The faulty logic, group-think, and pretense is sickening. If we are to “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s” – does that mean that the hearts, minds and souls of our Christian children belong to God and not the state? What happens to a child who is surrendered to a government preschool at the age of 3 and left in the system until age 18 – or more if they attend a government university? The HHS mandate prompted an outraged panel of five. If home school parents are persecuted, will the Church avert its eyes?
“We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.” 2 Corinthians 10:5

We, the WE, being Americans, are in much the same situation as those who struggled to come to the U.S. hundreds of years ago. It’s name is FREEDOM. This country has changed drastically, in the past 40 plus years. It hasn’t been hidden, it’s been right in our faces, as kids growing up, getting married, and then watching our own children. For me, it has been shocking for a number of reasons.

The moral decay of any country begins with the children. As Hitler stated:

He alone, who owns the youth, gains the Future!”
Adolf Hitler, speech at the Reichsparteitag, 1935

Chilling words, but none the less true.

The public school situation has been the most obvious, taking everything out that has a hint of God within HOLY Scripture. Following that, allowing moral decay to permeate every aspect of daily public school life, be it school officials, teachers and of course the children.

Even when I was in high school, the pendulum had begun to swing. It began with the teachers, and others who took charge, with liberal ideas, foisting them upon un-suspecting kids, – even the children knew the lines had been stepped over.

Homeschooling isn’t my first choice, but it may be the only choice, if parents cannot afford Christian schools.

Joe @ 12 comments: “We care more about our relationship with Germany than with these folks. Germany is our friend and the key to fixing Europe’s economy and we want to be able to influence what Germany does in that respect.”

I believe Joe is correct.

Kerner, it would seem as if the German family’s error was in filing for asylum. They should have just blatantly overstayed their visa, in which case, presumably, the Obama administration would have switched sides and opposed any efforts to deport them. It is those immigrants who try to follow the legal process who lose in our upside-down world of immigration.

This information is dated back in February of 2005.

Homeschool World: News:

Huge Fines, Jail, and Loss of Custody Threatened for German Homeschoolers (February 21, 2005)

“To those of us in the USA and other nations who have seen homeschooling blossom in the last 25 years, with the only “dire” consequences being more kids who can write well and do well on standardized tests, the idea that parents should be drastically punished for homeschooling sounds, well, Nazi-like. And I mean that literally.”

http://www.home-school.com/news/germany2.html

Becky @ 20 “Not to mention, this administration just doesn’t understand what religious freedom means.”

That’s a fact Becky, and they have no intention of understanding or realize what this poor family will face if they are deported.

It must have been horrible hundreds of years ago, when people could not Worship God as they believed, and so boarded a ship, bringing them to this land, where hard work, cold winters, little food, but they made it, God gave them strength. And now we see a family who, might very well be thrown back into a country that will punish them for homschooling. How many little school houses doted the landscape in the infancy of our country, where God was honored, prayer was given every morning, and NOW? – that would be unheard of.

FREEDOM now, our schools and many other institutions, where the athiest rules, his FREEDOM endless!

This blog on Mexicans that come here illegally to escape violence and economic privation: “OMG deport them they broke the law!”

This blog on Germans that come here illegally to home school their children: “OMG why would Obama deport them why does he hate religion?”

Gotta love the consistency.

Kerner @ 18: I agree. Would that we had reasonable laws regarding the limitation of eligibility for our generous governmental benefits to non-citizens so that we could have a more open immigration policy, keeping in mind that we already have, by far, the most open immigration policy of any first world country. We need a policy overhaul so that we are once again a welcoming shore for those seeking to be free. This family that simply wants to enjoy the liberty to raise their children as they think best should be the last people in the world to ever be considered for deportation.

@Don

I know you’re going to hate this, but when it comes to immigration enforcement, to Obama administration has actually deported illegals in far greater numbers than under the previous administration despite that the number of people crossing our borders has slackened since he became president (a stat that, I’m sure, both sides find uncomfortable):

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/27/obama-is-deporting-more-immigrants-than-bush-republicans-dont-think-thats-enough/

So, all these complaints about enforcement ring a little hollow. But, one of the main talking points for Republicans during the immigration debate has been that along with an easier path to citizenship, existing laws need to be enforced, presumably meaning for deportations. I just find it funny that the tone is so different in this case when it’s been so heartless in the past.

Personally, I think the Romeikes should be allowed to stay. I sincerely hope that they are. Given the Democrats current stance on immigration, I find it strange that there is such a focus on deporting them back to Germany. But I also find it strange that many on this blog are suddenly so pro-immigration as soon as the issue revolves around homeschooling.

@fjsteve

So homeschooling is more fundamental to well being than life or property? Being forced to send your children to public school is worse than not having no job and facing violent drug cartels? I’m not talking about legal consistency, here. I’m talking about consistency of principle. Either you think people should be allowed to come to the States to seek a better life, or you don’t.

DonS:

“Would that we had reasonable laws regarding the limitation of eligibility for our generous governmental benefits to non-citizens…”

Yeah. Weirdly enough, those safeguards exist for legal immigrants as a condition of legal status. At least we can probably agree that those conditions should remain a condition of legal status movong forward.

Kirk @ 27: Well, first of all, the point I made is that the administration has a policy not to deport illegals unless they have committed a serious felony. That is true. The issue of whether Obama has deported more than Bush is, frankly irrelevant. Our immigration policy has been screwed up since the previous 1986 amnesty. However, I should note that not everyone believes the Obama administration is comparing apples to apples. According to Senator Lamar Smith, the Obama administration counts removals (those apprehended at the border) as deportations: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/sep/26/obama-puts-illegals-ahead-of-americans/

We are a country that stands for liberty and freedom. When someone with a documented case of persecution in their home country, because of their efforts to live their lives and raise their children in accordance with their convictions, crosses our shores and requests asylum we should give their request careful and thorough consideration. And if they are being persecuted for doing something that is, in this country, a fundamental constitutional right, we should, absent other extenuating circumstances, grant their request. We should always stand for liberty — it is the reason we are a country unique in the annals of world history.

Most of the illegals in our country have not requested asylum, so I’m not sure what point you are making in your last paragraph to fjsteve. Coming here merely for economic advantage is certainly not in the same category as coming here for fundamental human liberty. And, though you seem to assume that I am in favor of mass deportations, that is not the case. I am in favor of developing an immigration policy that will loosen, but carefully manage and enforce our laws to ensure that legal immigrants are not disadvantaged relative to illegal immigrants, as they clearly are today. To the extent that we legalize illegals currently in our country, my preference would be that those who, as adults, entered our country knowingly and illegally never be allowed to become citizens. That should be the price for breaking the law. I’m also in favor of strictly limiting governmental benefits to non-citizens. Opportunity, not handouts.

Kirk @ 27:

So homeschooling is more fundamental to well being than life or property? Being forced to send your children to public school is worse than not having no job and facing violent drug cartels? I’m not talking about legal consistency, here. I’m talking about consistency of principle. Either you think people should be allowed to come to the States to seek a better life, or you don’t.

Is that what your point is? Seemed to me it was about favoring Germans over Mexicans. But, okay, I’ll address this point.

Let’s word it this way: is being forced to send your kids to a church that mixes Lutheran and Reformed confessions under the umbrella of a state church worse than not having a job in a country where you don’t speak the language and facing sometimes violent discrimination? I think that’s a fair comparison. Yes, to a large number of people around the world, having a government who says “let us teach your kids or we take them away from you” is at least on par with escaping drug violence or finding good work.

Kerner @ 34:

If people whose churches were being forced into fellowship with the heterodox have a good enough reason to immigrate to America, then it would seem to me that people whose government pursues economic policies confine the poor to grinding poverty, and whose government cannot, or will not, protect them from drug cartels, have an equally good reason to want to immigrate to America. As for a German family whose government tells them their kids must attend German public schools or face criminal penalties, I’m not saying that this is not a good reason to immigrate to America, but I must say that it seems a little less urgent than inescapable poverty and criminal violence.

Really, Kerner? You think the direct, specific threats made by German authorities to this one German family, promising that they will be jailed and lose their kids if they continue homeschooling, is “less urgent” than “inescapable poverty and criminal violence”, which is not individualized and which is not the basis of a request for asylum? You know, I spend a lot of time in Mexico, and unless you are a border policeman or a drug runner it’s not any more dangerous than here. And, sheesh, poverty is more compelling than the deprivation of human liberty? Well, on that basis, we had better just admit pretty much the entire continent of Africa, as well as vast swaths of Asia, Eastern Europe, and South and Central America, all of which are faced with “grinding poverty” relative to the U.S.

Grace:

“Teachers have to cope with children who don’t know English, who’s parents cannot speak the language, and make little attempt to learn – and then lie and cheat to get here, and stay. The next big issue is HEALTH we pay big time for their FREE health care. The hospitals are not able to absorb the costs. ”

Well, I going to have to concede that homeschoolers are less likely to cost the state much for education, but the Romeikes, like almost all asylum applicants, must have lied and cheated to get here, because to be admitted as visitors (tourists) they would have had to declare that they intended to return to Germany (a lie). And I would love to know what two free lance piano teachers are doing for health care, but I don’t really know. But you don’t have to live oin a border state to have lots of people sucking up free health care.

But, the issue is what individuals do, not what some generalized “they” do. My position is that people who want to work and support themselves should be allowed to. And no, I don’t live in a Border state. But there are conservative border states and liberal border states. And as for California, liberalism is by far the biggest problem you have. In Wisconsin we are trying to minimize liberalism, and it may work for us. Nothing can help you until you do the same. Constantly focusing your attention on other things simply distracts from the damage that liberalism causes and prevents you from solving your real problems.

This is, incidently, a common liberal tactic. To get you to focus on superficial matters (which often involves attacking some generalized “them”, thus getting you to fight with people who could become your friends) rather than to attack the root liberal problem.

Kerner @ 37

“Well, I going to have to concede that homeschoolers are less likely to cost the state much for education, but the Romeikes, like almost all asylum applicants, must have lied and cheated to get here, because to be admitted as visitors (tourists) they would have had to declare that they intended to return to Germany (a lie).

Germany caused this family pain and suffering, just because they want this families children attending the German public school, taught the way the Germans want the children of their country taught, learning EXACTLY the things they want instilled in their minds. – – And the parents said NO. That’s reminiscent of another time in history, ie: 1930’s.

“He alone, who owns the youth, gains the Future!”
– Adolf Hitler, speech at the Reichsparteitag, 1935

Get those families in line, take charge of the minds of the children. Put the parents in jail if they don’t fall into line.

MARCH!

You have no proof they “LIED” NONE, not one piece of evidence – You certainly want them returned to Germany to face the their accusers, …. just because they don’t want their children taught in public German schools.

Kerner

If you believe asylum to immigrants is a fair practice, why not extend that to the Germans, who actually have a good reason for coming to this country?

How many millions of illegal aliens, from below the border have lied to sneak across our southern border? Do you know? Right now we have about 11 million, is that enough?

WHY Kerner would you extend asylum to immigrants from below the border? Illegal aliens are not trustworthy, they lie to come here by the millions, they have no respect for our laws, NONE!

Those south of the border bring a great deal of grief to the United states.

DEA

Drug Enforcement Agency

“A 2005 DEA study determined that during 2003 and 2004 there were excess U.S. dollars present in Mexico that could not be accounted for from legitimate sources totaling at least $9.2 billion and $10.2 billion, respectively. It is estimated that the four major drugs that are smuggled into the United States from Mexico ( i.e. methamphetamine, heroin, cocaine, and marijuana,) generate as much as $22 billion per year for the sources of supply.“

It’s thought provoking as to WHY you support illegal aliens.

tODD @ 40: The point being, of course, that Kerner has no evidence to support his contention that the German family lied to enter the U.S. Yes, they intended to overstay, but have gone through the legally established and acceptable process of applying for asylum, rather than just ….. overstaying. As most illegals who enter legally do. My objection is that our de facto immigration policy, as applied, favors the latter (those who just overstay) over the former (those who try to do things the right way). It’s abhorrent.

The Berlin Wall is no longer visible, Hitler is dead, but the strident march goes on to DICTATE how Christian parents are to raise their children – it MUST LINE UP with GERMAN RULE, and that dating back to Hitler’s education law of 1938.

Legalize homeschooling in Germany

“Since the days of Adolf Hitler’s education law in 1938 homeschooling has not been allowed in Germany but there exists a compulsory school attendance law in every German state. Those who homeschool in Germany have faced outrageous fines in excess of $10,000, had their homes raided by police, lost custody of their children, had their children taken from them by arrogant social workers. Children were removed from homes by social workers and put into government custody”

http://www.change.org/petitions/parental-rights-legalize-homeschooling-in-germany

The VIDEO should not be missed. What is the quote from Hitler, why does it ring true, even after the war ended 68 years ago? His edicts still stand!

Oops. Forgot my second point @ 46. Which is that the specific issue for this family is precisely the kind of liberty issue our country was settled and founded to address. To deport this family is essentially to subvert the very reason the Pilgrims came here in the first place.

Kerner,

“How do I know the Romeikes lied? Their brief in support of their application for Asylum says so, that’s how. For some reason I can’t cut and paste from it, but go to the link I posted @10, scroll dow2n to page 7 and about a third of the way down page 7 you will find the Romeikes’ lawyer claiming that the Romeikes flew into the airport at Atlanta, and delcared (to the US government) themselves to be visitors “

I’ve read what you requested on page 7. It does not, in any way proclaim that they “lied” – they may have thought the German Government would change their mind. But it DOES NOT SAY THEY LIED. As a lawyer, you should know better than to accuse without specific proof, of which you don’t have.

Another point Kerner as you state: “Their brief in support of their application for Asylum says so, that’s how. For some reason I can’t cut and paste from it,”

You should know better, there is no way that I know of, to copy paste from pdf. Certainly you’ve tried before and it didn’t work. If you really wanted to share and put it in your comment. You could have copied it on your fax copier, then typed it by hand, it isn’t long – then everyone could read it. LOL

http://www.hslda.org/hs/international/Germany/RomeikeBrief.pdf

Bottom line, Kerner, is that it should never be governmental policy that those who flout the law are better off than those who don’t. And yet that is precisely the status of our current immigration laws, as they are enforced by the current administration (and, yes, I understand that they were enforced just as unlawfully by prior administrations as well, though perhaps not as blatantly so).

In order to be admitted as a visitor you have to declare your intention to return home. If the Romeike’s did not intend to return home, they could have said so, but they instead claimed to be tourists. I have represented numerous asylum applicants, mostly successfully, and most of them do exactly what the Romeikes apparently did. They get into the United States somehow, usually by lying in some way or another, and then later come forward and tell the truth. They don’t want to go back because of the persecution they would receive if they did. Almost 80% of asylum applications are denied, by the way. And, in some of my more recent cases (after a year or two of litigation), I have found other, easier to get, relief for clients rather than take the chance that they will be denied asylum, as the Romeikes were by the Board of Immigration Appeals.

I repeat, AGAIN, that I want the Romeikes to win their case, and I hope the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals grants them that relief, but if that doesn’t work, I also hope one of their lawwyers is smart enough to find some other form of relief that will allow them to stay. If that happens, it will almost certainly be one of those programs that is routinely decried by the political Right. And that will be the final irony in the Romeikes’s case.

Yeah, DonS @47, you have a point about the Pilgrims and why they came here. But that isn’t why my aancestors came here per se. My great grandfather, Karel Kerner, left Bohemia to avoid being conscripted into the Austro-Hungarian army, so he could get a better job working on the docks in Chicago. His soon to be wife, Josefa, left Bohemia and immigrated to Chicago primarily to get what seemed to her a good job: working as a housemaid. After they married, they worked hard, saved their money, and opened a knife-making and cabinetry business. Most of my other ancestors had similar stories of leaving their old countries and coming to America to work hard for a better life.

It is possible that among them were a few who had some story of individual persecution, but most of them were just poor people living in countries where the poor stayed poor, and they wanted to go somewhere that would give them the opportunity to do better.

That’s the way America was in those days. There were no quotas (at least not for the countries they came from). All an immigrant had to do was prove that he “was unlikely to become a public charge” (which generally involved getting a financial sponsorship of some kind) proving you weren’t a revolutionarry or criminal of some kind, proving that you didn’t have any serious diseases, and staying out of trouble once you got here. There was no such thing as a prohibition against (there were no such things as work permits until the mid 1960s) working without permission, because supporting oneself was the whole point of coming here.

Today our immigration system has so many restrictions on immigrating that it would be almost impossible for most of my ancestors to come to America. Again, that is a result of the social engineering of the 1960’s. And while I do believe that everyone should still have to satisfy the older standards of self-sufficiency, honesty, decent health and not being terrorists, I really think the large number of illegals here today has a lot more to do with market based demands for their services (like my ancestors, a lot of them are unskilled laborers and maids) than any other factor. Laws that attempt to restrict market forces for social engineering purposes are doomed to failure, so fussing over their inevitable failure seems to me to miss the point. Letting immigrants enter to work and purusue a better life should never have been illegal in the first place.

Kerner 53

“In order to be admitted as a visitor you have to declare your intention to return home. If the Romeike’s did not intend to return home, they could have said so, but they instead claimed to be tourists.”

NO Kerner the pdf says “they were admitted as vistors” – there is nothing in the pdf, page 7, that states tourists – go back and read it again. You’re playing word games – LOL
http://www.hslda.org/hs/international/Germany/RomeikeBrief.pdf

Kerner @ 53: Specifically, as I recall and remember it, the Visa waiver program requires you to have purchased round trip airline tickets, which is evidence of your intent to return home. However, you are still speculating — there is nothing in the brief you cited to evidence that the Romeikes had a firm intention to overstay their visa and apply for asylum when they entered the country. As Grace said above, it may have been their intention to continue working with German officials from the temporary safety of the U.S., hoping that their status in Germany would change so that they could timely return. We simply don’t know what they did or said, not that it’s necessarily dispositive or important to what the outcome of this case should be.

Does it not strike you as odd that the administration policy is to oppose deportation of illegal residents of the country unless they have committed a serious felony, yet it is actively advocating deportation for this family? Presumably, if the family simply disappeared now, the administration would shift its stance and stop trying to deport them? That is the absurd state in which we find ourselves.

Again, I don’t think I am “hot and bothered” because I happen to live in a state heavily impacted by illegal immigrants. I am seriously bothered by our government’s utter disregard for the rule of law, and its elevation of the interests of illegal immigrants over those of legal applicants for immigration. The system is certainly, as you say, a disaster, but it is what it is until our lawmakers change it, and the administration’s responsibility is to uniformly enforce it as it exists. In the meantime, we should fix it. We should do so in a way that ensures that legal immigrants are prioritized, and that those who entered illegally, while likely being granted some form of permanent residency, are never advantaged over those who have not broken our immigration laws. Denying them citizenship, unless they leave and apply properly, seems like a reasonable compromise, though you apparently disagree. The other thing we need to do is ensure that those who enter our country, legally or illegally, contribute more than they take, by limiting their eligibility for government benefits and ensuring that the burden for those benefits the federal government mandates to be granted (such as hospital care and public education) is fairly distributed throughout the nation.

And no, it does not strike me as “odd” that the Obama administration has decided to pursue the deportation of immigrants whom the administration is unlikely to be able to manipulate into government dependence. It strikes me as all too tragically common, and intentional.

Kerner you certainly are strident over this couple who wishes to homeschool. It makes me wonder WHY you’re so determined. These people have not lied, no matter how hard you try to twist the words within the pdf file page 7. You’re wrong, – it’s not clever –

Kerner @ 62

“Until now. The Romeikes have made you notice seven German illegals who just want to live here in peace and freedom. Them you care about. Now if I can just get you to see other illegals as individuals maybe I will have accomplished something.“

Everyone is an “individual” that isn’t the problem. The problem is; the ones you want to help are illegal by lying, cheating, crossing our borders to TAKE what DOESN’T BELONG TO THEM, using our education system, to enhance their lives. Those who cheat and lie don’t deserve what they take from us, and that includes medical health benefits as well. It’s not their’s to take, nor is it honest. However you can’t see it.

Maybe you like the German way better – 0bviously you don’t care that these people, who came here legally, have been treated terribly. Hitler would probably be delighted that his 1938 ruling is still in effect in Germany, and there are American’s like you, who find no fault in his hatefulness against homeschooling.

Kerner @ 62

“First of all, the border jumpers don’t lie, because they don’t see an immigration officer at all.“

You’re RIGHT, they don’t see an “immigration officer” because they are either going over, or under a fence, OR they flee over open land running over the border. You didn’t think that through did you?

Kerner, we don’t have a line of “immigration officers” the length of all the borders states – you do know that right? LOL

“Second, about 35% or more of illegals are overstays, but the majority of them do not come from south of the border. The overstays, who have done something dishonest, come here from overseas, and like the Romeikes, they represent one intention while secretly having a long term stay in mind.“

PROVE IT, with government statistics. Ya had to get the “Romeikes” in there. You don’t know what their “secretly” thinking at all, you’ve made it up, and a poor story it is!

Unfortunately, Kerner @ 59, the gist of this thread has spun out of control.

I think you and I have had a good conversation, and hopefully I have made my point clear. I bear no ill will to those illegals in our country, almost all of them, who simply came here to have a better life. I have no desire to deport them, nor to punish them in any way other than: 1) to deny them the benefits of socialism you reference @ 58, 2) to deny citizenship to those who knowingly came into the country illegally (I have no objection to permanent residency, but there should be consequences to illegal action and this would ensure a) that legal immigrants are better off than illegal ones, and b) that politicians would not be motivated to legalize illegal immigrants for the cynical purpose of gaining their votes).

You said @ 62:

First of all, the border jumpers don’t lie, because they don’t see an immigration officer at all. Second, about 35% or more of illegals are overstays, but the majority of them do not come from south of the border. The overstays, who have done something dishonest, come here from overseas, and like the Romeikes, they represent one intention while secretly having a long term stay in mind. I suppose that a very small number actually intend to go back and then change their minds, but in my experience that is really rare. But since the government canniot prove anything, nobody does anything about it.

Again, we don’t know what the Romeikes’ intention was when they entered the country. You are speculating, without grounds. However, your statement “…since the government cannot prove anything, nobody does anything about it” is odd. What do you mean by that? You can deport someone who overstays their visa. Shouldn’t that be done, on a routine basis? Isn’t that the law? Yet it specifically IS NOT done, by policy.

You have not really addressed my point that, while the administration is fighting to deport the Romeikes now, by policy it would change its stance 180 degrees were the Romeikes simply to disappear and overstay without the asylum request. Which, of course, is an absurd position for our country to take.

Sorry, wrong thread.

Kerner @ 70: Thanks for your response.

The lying issue has been vastly exaggerated on this thread. Neither of us really know whether they lied, nor does it really matter with respect to the overarching issue of asylum. I think you made the original accusation in an effort to draw some kind of moral equivalence between the Romeikes and those who enter the country illegally, but that d9esn’t really work. The bottom line is that they are doing things the right way, while those who simply cross the border illegally and stay, or just overstay their visa, with no intention to come clean with the U.S. government are clearly not. Assuming the Romeikes lied, and then requested asylum, and assuming other entrants on a tourist visa lie, then disappear, the second case is worse than the first. There’s no legitimate argument there. If you believe otherwise, then we profoundly disagree.

That said, I am not one who “treat[s] any deception or breach of ‘our laws’ as a reason to become implaccably opposed to ‘amnesty’ for that breach.” This is not an issue of the definition of sin, where any sin, regardless of grade, is sufficient to break fellowship with our Lord and require the propitiation afforded by our Savior’s shed blood. This is the real world, where there are grades of malfeasance. Even assuming the Romeikes weren’t entirely truthful with the immigration officer when they legally entered the country, as to their future intentions, they didn’t flout the law. They are proceeding through a legal process, and they have made their presence in this country beyond the expiration of their tourist status known to authorities. That is a difference in kind from those who knowingly and deliberately flout our laws by entering (legally or illegally), and then disappearing and staying illegally without accountability to the authorities. Worse yet is an enforcement apparatus which not only enables this lawbreaking, but encourages and prioritizes it.

My only point is that we need to fix the laws, and hold the authorities accountable to enforce them. Willing failure to do so should be grounds for dismissal and liability. Those who knowingly disobey our laws should suffer real consequences, and most certainly shouldn’t be prioritized over those who obey them. Just because we don’t like a law is no excuse, as you, a Lutheran, should particularly know. And regardless of what we think about immigration, we do have an important national security interest in knowing who enters our country, and who resides in it. If nothing else, 9/11 should have taught us that.

this was a very entertaining thread. thank you. i have difficulty sleeping and enjoy reading conversations as heated as this while i’m up late at night.

i work in college admissions. i know all about it, and what qualifies a student for admission.

i have many strong opinions about public schooling, and i approve of homeschooling, even though i am a liberal. i have met many fine homeschooled children who are as well or better qualified as public and private school-educated applicants. if i were a mother, and could not afford a fine private school, i would likely homeschool.

i am also friends with a bunch of Germans. it’s different over there, and for good reason, as many of you have pointed out. they fear right leaning social trends, and for good reason. Hilter was an extreme right wing leader who brought their nation to near ruin. they have laws on the books that seem extreme to americans for this reason. even if this law was from the Nazi era, it can be applied and interpreted in many ways. that is what is happening here.

i do not agree that this couple’s children should be taken away from them, however. i know the schools in Germany are very good, but i agree with those of you here who say it’s going to far to take them away. the fact that they are “illegal” immigrants in america or whatever shouldn’t be important either. they deserve a chance to school their children and enjoy religious freedom and i bet they would be productive members of american society, if given that chance.

i do agree with other posters, however: why are these people so important, where hispanic or african immigrant families rarely become the topic of blogs like these? this is a Christian blog, right? i’m pretty sure Christ wouldn’t care if a family was fleeing because of persecution due to religion, race, or sexual orientation. he would say, “take comfort, and have peace.”

i am somewhat amused by the way people here are so angry about the money spent on immigrants in schools and hospitals in america. it’s very clear that a lot of you don’t know some facts. ours is a rich nation, “blessed by god” as many of you would say. all we have to do is properly tax large corporations (many of whom pay none, like ford and amazon) and the very wealthy individuals living off of investments and inheritances. it’s simple, really. you pay your taxes, don’t you? well, they should too.

we don’t have to agree on religion or politics to agree on that simple step, which could overnight transform our nation into one where no one wants for food, shelter or peace. including the undocumented/illegal immigrants. it’s also the case that we could jumpstart the american domestic economy if we just let in a larger number of immigrants. we could set criteria, such that they must come with a certain amount of money and skill and not be “on welfare,” but this is a large planet and a LOT of well off people would like to live here. let them come, and create businesses and jobs. they would love the opportunity and be productive members of society.