Shame and Power

Shame and Power October 23, 2019

By Kelly Edmiston

Growing up, I was almost always a compliant child in school. Very rarely did I get in trouble. I remember one of the only days in Kindergarten that I had to pull a popsicle stick for whispering something to my neighbor during the instruction time. I can still recall the heavy dark cloud of shame that washed over me, head to toe, as I walked to the front of the classroom to pull the treasured popsicle stick. I vowed then and there to do everything in my power to never feel this way again. In my adult life, I had to learn a new set of rules in order to keep me from experiencing this shame again. I have been shamed for breaking adult rules too. Many years ago, I got in “trouble” because I publicly referred to myself as a preacher. In this particular context that I was in, women were not allowed to preach. This was breaking the rules. As in my childhood, this “mistake” caused me to experience a heavy dark cloud of shame. And the shame led me, this time, to stop calling myself a preacher for many years.

Removed from the situation and looking back on it now, this is a moment of deep regret for me, both as a woman and as a preacher. This memory stings fresh and tender in light of John MacArthur and his buddies verbally abusing and belittling Beth Moore. I will not link the hate speech here as it does not deserve one more second of attention. John MacArthur is a bully. He is not a scholar. He is afraid and this makes him behave in hateful ways.

He is afraid of Beth Moore and the “women preachers” that she represents, and he should be. Beth Moore is not “going home,” shutting up, or slowing down. She is an affront to the system of patriarchy that is the guiding force behind his complementarian theology. Patriarchy is a way of organizing the world that gives power to men and fathers. In patriarchy, men lead and women always submit and follow. Men preach and women remain silent in the assembly.

The reason that MacArthur should be afraid is that patriarchy and its rules is a dying system. It is not just the SBC that is beginning to see through the nonsense of it. Despite these men’s distaste for it, women do run for and occupy places in the Senate and Congress and yes, they can even run for President (gasp!). He is correct that “feminism has come to the church.” The church of the future is not run by exclusively white men using exclusively male images for God.[1] [2] People are seeing through the guise of a God-ordained hierarchy for what it truly is; a man’s quest to remain in power.

And like many people in power, MacArthur is using shame in hopes that this will “correct” the deviant’s behavior. MacArthur accuses Moore, and by proxy any woman preacher, of being power hungry. This is his way of inviting her to walk to the front of the classroom and pull a popsicle stick while his buddies point and laugh.

This is what patriarchy does with power. It violently protects its own power and shames those with no power for wanting power. This is by definition a double standard.

If a woman seeks power, she is narcissistic and compared to a jewelry salesperson. If a man protects his power, he is representing God. If a woman seeks power, she is prideful and evil. If a man protects his power, he is a keeper of tradition.

Since the dawn of the church, God has given women the power to lead, to serve, to preach and to prophesy as equal participants alongside our brothers in the communities that we love.[3] And we will not be ashamed any longer for the rightful and God-given power that we seek.

So lead on, Beth Moore, and all women preachers everywhere. May we live so boldly into our callings that the falling system of patriarchy shouts at us too to “Go Home.”

[1] Here is a brief summary of the future of Christianity. https://religionnews.com/2019/01/10/where-is-christianity-headed-the-view-from-2019/

[2] Here is an example of the fastest growing church in the world, led by women. https://www.foxnews.com/faith-values/worlds-fastest-growing-church-women-documentary-film?fbclid=IwAR3aQAjs6_QfY-vvkUMaq3Lc2Fvfxow7mZwhGNFbg9WukzW9_6U4bk0dit8

[3] See Scot’s recent article about the historical and factual case that hundreds have made for women preaching and leading in the church since the first century onward. There is Old Testament and New Testament evidence for such a case. I will not rehash it here. For reference, https://sarahbessey.substack.com/p/nope-not-going-home and

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2019/10/21/go-home-or-at-home/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[1] Here is a brief summary of the future of Christianity. https://religionnews.com/2019/01/10/where-is-christianity-headed-the-view-from-2019/

[2] Here is an example of the fastest growing church in the world, led by women. https://www.foxnews.com/faith-values/worlds-fastest-growing-church-women-documentary-film?fbclid=IwAR3aQAjs6_QfY-vvkUMaq3Lc2Fvfxow7mZwhGNFbg9WukzW9_6U4bk0dit8

[3] See Scot’s recent article about the historical and factual case that hundreds have made for women preaching and leading in the church since the first century onward. There is Old Testament and New Testament evidence for such a case. I will not rehash it here. For reference, https://sarahbessey.substack.com/p/nope-not-going-home and

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2019/10/21/go-home-or-at-home/

 

 


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  • Jon

    A thought occurred to me, reading this article, namely the nature of Christian leadership. Christ gave us the example, when he stripped Himself, and washed the twelve’s feet. Leadership in Christ’s body, is not to be characterized by wielding power or authority, but by relinquishing it and serving naked–i.e. unprotected. What McArthur is doing is the exact opposite. He is, in fact, behaving just like the Pharisees and Jewish leaders did with regard to Christ.

    It would be one thing to disagree with Beth Moore and others, but this is not leadership. It is not following Christ. It is not Christ-like in the least. I know you said that, but that image of Christ stripping Himself to wash feet, and McArthur’s words and actions stand in such stark contrast here. I can imagine McArthur’s umbrage if he were compared to the Pharisees he would claim to be opposed to, but I have no other comparison that so aptly fits.

  • JohnM

    “….John MacArthur and his buddies verbally abusing and belittling Beth Moore.”

    “John MacArthur is a bully. He is not a scholar. He is afraid and this makes him behave in hateful ways.”

  • JohnM

    Jon, the thing is, the stark contrast is between humbly washing feet and what feminists demand. They are not demanding to serve, but to possess power. In whatever respect the John MacArthur’s of the world might be wrong *they* are not the ones constantly going on about power.

  • scotmcknight

    One can’t dismiss all feminism with one broom, brother. Some do go on about power, but so does MacArthur and his tribe of pastors, and some don’t, and many pastors are non-authoritarian to the core.

  • Jon

    Nice broad-stroke characterization, there. I hate to say this, but that is not a healthy attitude, nor helpful to anyone, including you. In fact, resorting to ad hominem attacks like this is pretty much admitting defeat before you even begin!

    But I return to my original point. There is a real problem in Christianity, and that is that there are those in leadership who do not view their leadership in the way that Christ both taught and modeled. Their leadership _is_ about power, so considers any threat to that power as a power grab of like kind. (Think Sauron who could not imagine that his enemies would seek to dispose him without also taking his ring and power.) John McArthur’s attempt at shaming aptly illustrate that for us. It is kind of sad that when someone (a woman) attempts to point out this “power” mentality or rectify the situation they get this sort of reaction, but such reactions just illustrate how deep and how bad the problem is.

    As I said in my original post, they are the Pharisees of today–and I don’t say that to be mean, but to point out the awkwardness and perversity of their situation. (dare I add that Christ reserved His harshest words and harshest treatment for those who wielded their power and hoarded it, i.e. the Pharisees, and it was they who crucified the Lord in the end)

  • azbuckeye

    I’m sorry MacArthur made his comment, but, really, so what? Most of the world never heard of MacArthur, and within the group of us who have, many (most?) don’t care what he says. Being offended by him is like having to pull a popsicle stick — it’s only embarrassing if one consents to being embarrassed by it. There’s an Arab proverb that says: The dogs may bark, but the caravan moves along.

  • Al Cruise

    What is needed is more exposure of people like MacArthur and his comments, especially among the silent majority and you will see the rejection of his views on mass , which will cause such views to become socially ,culturally and Spiritually unacceptable.

  • Michelle

    The ideal would be that men seek to mentor and share power with women and invite them into leadership, so that women do not have to be advocates for themselves. It’s all backwards when each party is either seeking to hold on to power or to wrest power – Jesus makes it clear that true Christian leadership is characterized by giving power away and humble service. I am a preacher and theologian in large part because of the many men in my life – father; pastors; professors – who have encouraged and nurtured those callings in my life rather than belittled or rejected them.

  • John MacArthur is a bully. He is not a scholar. He is afraid and this makes him behave in hateful ways.

    A better description of J-Mac has not been written. His influence is vastly disproportionate to his ability to understand the Bible.

  • I mostly agree with this sentiment. Who cares what this guy thinks about anything?

    The one mitigating factor is, within evangelical circles, he does have a lot of influence even in segments that you wouldn’t expect. If you are an evangelical, and J-Mac turns his guns on you, lots of others will follow. If he demonizes you, a not insignificant percentage of evangelicals will also view you as a demon. Depending on where you sit in evangelicalism, that could be at minimum problematic, if not also hurtful.

  • They already have power. There’s no reason for them to complain about an unequal distribution of power because they are the beneficiaries of it. It’s like saying that women are money hungry because they keep complaining about equal pay, but you never hear men complaining about it.

  • JohnM

    Phil, you miss the point. Is power something to be eschewed, relinquished, or is it something to be desired and demanded? Should women want to be foot washers or should they want to hold power? If the former, what is their complaint, and why do they want they what they say certain men have? If the latter, where do they get off criticizing those men for wanting it too?

    Feminists within the church accuse men like MacArthur (of whom I am not particularly a follower by the way) of being all about power, yet *they*, not those men, are the ones who cast the issue in terms of who has power in the first place, and who talk constantly about power. Power is their obsession and their lust, if their own words are any guide. Is power the important thing, or is rather it like Jon said above?

  • JohnM

    “It’s all backwards when each party is either seeking to hold on to power or to wrest power”

    Michelle, I mostly agree with you, although I don’t think men and women should see themselves as opposing parties to one another. My point is the seeking to wrest is no better than seeking to hold, and if nothing else it is hypocritical to demonize someone for the former when you are guilty of the latter.

  • JohnM

    Who do you think is the hominem? I did nothing you did not do .

  • Barb

    Who exactly are these so-called power hungry women in the church. I’m almost 70 I’ve spent my whole life in churches with women sharing leadership, and ministry with men in an equal way. I’ve never met or heard of a woman who served the church who was lusting for power. If there are women in denomination that don’t allow women in leadership maybe what those desire is what they see women able to do in the Bible.

  • JohnM

    Certainly the ones who do go on about power do go on about power, and those are the ones we are talking about here.Whether or not one can dismiss all feminism with one broom, that wasn’t my point.

  • I think any inequity is worthy of address; it doesn’t matter if it’s occupational power, pay, voting rights, treatment by the law, whatever. It’s an issue of justice. What people do with what they have is another issue entirely.

    For example, let’s say a church had a paid janitorial staff. They paid the male janitors $15 an hour and the female janitors $10 an hour, and the only distinction between the groups was gender. When the female janitors complain, imagine the elders going, “Why are you complaining about money? None of the male janitors are making this about money. You obviously love money. You know, Jesus said the love of money is the root of all evil. As Christians, we shouldn’t be seeking wealth.”

    Would you consider that line of reasoning a valid defense of why the female janitors should quit asking for equal pay?

  • D Sims

    The great takeaway for me in this discussion is watching Beth Moore being much more Christ like to MacArthur than those who are writing blogs and are commenting on forums.
    She was ]extremely gracious and kind, much more than those who have come running to her defence. Beth lived up to her savior for when she was reviled, she did revile in return, when suffering did not answer back with equal name calling and threatening. Rather she trusted herself to the One who judges justly. 1 Peter 2

  • JohnM

    I would tell the female janitors that if $15/hour is what they want they shouldn’t talk as if it is evil for anyone to make $15/hour and the male janitors are bad for making $15/hour.

  • JohnM

    Who are these power hungry women? The ones who talk about power. I’m using the word they use.

  • JohnM

    Michelle, I partly got my point backward I see. I meant it is hypocritical to to demonize for seeking to hold power at the same time one is seeking to wrest it. That is what I see happening here. Hopefully you understood it.

  • Al Cruise

    She is a good example of someone with the gifts of a teaching pastor. Even from your discernment it’s clear both men and women would experience Spiritual growth under her guidance and teaching as a pastor.

  • Would the male janitors be bad if they kept telling the women they should keep their mouths shut?

  • JohnM

    Depends on what the women were saying.

  • I’m not sure it does. They want equal pay. The other janitors don’t think they should have it. I don’t think we’re allowed to perpetuate injustice because the people complaining aren’t complaining in terms that are acceptable to us.

  • JohnM

    The women demand power. They simultaneously accuse the men of wickedly being all about power.
    The thing is, your analogy, like any analogy, only stretches so far, and it has served as much purpose as it can here.

    If speech is false, dishonest, hypocritical, or slanderous, then no it is not bad to tell people to shut their mouth. Not many people here are saying to John MacArthur, ” We don’t think you are right, but nonetheless, preach on brother! Keep saying what you have to say!”, so it’s not as if they disagree with me on principle, but rather people obviously disagree on the facts.

  • Again, they demand power because that’s where the inequity is. They’re not asking for power over men or for power that men don’t have or even power in the abstract. They’re asking to pursue the same opportunities and means to serve that men have. I’m sure J-Mac doesn’t think of his desire to be a pastor as a power grab, so it’s very strange to characterize women who want to be pastors as power hungry. Unless he really does see his position as a power grab, which is possible.

    It’s not slanderous or dishonest to say that this about power for J-Mac, either. He’s made it very clear that it is. This is the crux of his criticism. He thinks women wanting to be pastors is a grab for power – a power that he himself has – and he doesn’t want them to have it. He may have “biblical” reasons for this, just as our American theological forefathers had “biblical” reasons for having slaves on their plantations, but it’s not inaccurate to say that he’s protecting power by keeping it from another group. He himself describes the struggle in this way.

    What could potentially be unfair is to accuse J-Mac of -only- caring about the power and the Bible not being important to him. I think his variety of misguided theological positions might indicate that the Bible isn’t very important to him, but there’s no way to really know that for sure, and that criticism may be overstepping bounds. But even so, that’s not an excuse for saying we don’t have to listen to the actual grievance.

  • swbarnes2

    Leadership in Christ’s body, is not to be characterized by wielding power or authority,

    Come on. You don’t get to burn even one person for being a heretic thinking like that! Can you imagine what your church would be like if it had not been able to burn anyone ever?

    Okay, sure, the early Christians had a model of more distributed leadership…and then realized it was not going to make them a world-spanning political powerhouse. Your church had a choice, and if they’d decided otherwise, you likely would not be Christian. Your church gained the world so as to not lose your soul…surely you aren’t going to argue the cost was too dear?

  • swbarnes2

    So your ideal is that women mentor nobody, and others do all the talking for them.

    Thanks for making your Christian ideal womanhood so clear.

  • JohnM

    “And we will not be ashamed any longer for the rightful and God-given power that we seek.”

    That wasn’t MacArthur, and it wasn’t the statement of any man. She/you may well believe the power sought is rightful and God-given, but it is explicitly and admittedly what is being sought. Of course it isn’t always so explicitly stated, sometimes the desire is cloaked in opportunity-to-serve talk. Well, to be fair perhaps some of these women also do want to serve. In any case, it is not slanderous or dishonest to say it is power seeking when the women themselves say it is power seeking. That (some) men may already hold power, or that the women say what they want is a share, no more than what men have, is irrelevant to the point that it is about coveting power.

    It is also irrelevant to the point that it is hypocritical to covet power and at the same time castigate other people for holding it. It is hypocritical to say things like ” Leadership in Christ’s body, is not to be characterized by wielding power or authority, but by relinquishing it and serving naked–i.e. unprotected.”, and at the same time covet/seek power yourself. OK, it was Jon, not a woman (I assume) who said that – but this thread started with my response to it. Perhaps the women who seek power do not endorse that statement after all? Do you?

  • I don’t know if they do or not. I certainly view the exercise of power in the church in the way Jesus demonstrated. He had power, and he used it for the benefit of the people under his care, not as a pagan king but as a servant king.

    That (some) men may already hold power, or that the women say what they want is a share, no more than what men have, is irrelevant to the point that it is about coveting power.

    For like the bajillionth time, the lack of power is where the inequity is, that’s why they’re asking for it. What should they do? “You have power we should all have equally, so please, give us rubber ducks to balance this out!”

    If there were a disparity in pay, then you’d criticize them for coveting money. If there were a disparity in housing conditions, you’d criticize them for seeking their own comfort. Basically, you’ve created a paradigm where anyone who is being treated unjustly is automatically in the wrong for speaking up because they are “coveting” the thing they don’t have.

  • JohnM

    It’s not that I don’t understand that you’re focused on the inequity, it’s that I can’t seem to get you to understand why that doesn’t matter to the point. What should they do? If power is what they want, they should forthrightly say: “Power is a good thing to have. Having power matters. Having power is our desire. We want to have power just like you have power”. They should not, if power is their desire, say, in so many words: “Power is bad and has no place in the church. Christianity is not about who has power. Bad people want to hold onto power. Your desire is for power and therefore you are bad”. They especially should not be saying both of those things at the same time.

    It is one thing to complain that one is being denied something, it is another thing to deprecate the very thing denied and fault others for wanting it, but then still seek after it. Don’t tell me nobody should want power, desire for power has no place in the church, then tell me a share of power is what you want.

    Of course, part of the disconnect here is our differing views on justice. You see justice and equality as pretty much the same thing. I do not. With “Basically, you’ve created a paradigm where anyone who is being treated unjustly….” you also beg the question. It is not unjust to deny someone something they are not supposed to have. Of course, I understand you see no reason why women should not have equal power with men in the church. Not that I would cast it in terms of “power” in the first place, and not so much that I’m trying right now to convince you that you are wrong about that. My point is just that you beg the question when you call it unjust. Finally, in general I’m less concerned with equality than you seem to be, because Scripture is less concerned with equality than you seem to be.

  • Finally, in general I’m less concerned with equality than you seem to be, because Scripture is less concerned with equality than you seem to be.

    The inclusion of Gentiles into Israel and what that means for everyone’s relationships and covenants is a dominating theme in the New Testament. There’s hardly a non-gospel writing that doesn’t deal with the issue to a certain extent, and almost the entirety of the book of Romans is about it.

    You could probably argue that the Scriptures rarely discuss -gender- equality, and comparatively speaking, it is rarely discussed, just as the equality of master and slave and the rich and the poor in the church are rarely discussed. But you can’t make your way through an epistle without equality being an issue. Equality is far more prevalent in the NT than, say, homosexuality or “the end times” or whatever else fundamentalists are always on about these days.

  • Ldon

    “Patriarchy is a way of organizing the world that gives power to men and fathers. In patriarchy, men lead and women always submit and follow. Men preach and women remain silent in the assembly.

    Kelly, did it ever occur to you that “patriarchy” is God’s plan and that it is Biblical? God the Father does Rule and so He has ordained male men to ‘Rule’ as He does. What’s wrong with that?

  • Al Cruise
  • kelly edmiston

    Hi. Thanks for posting. I do not agree that Patriarchy is Gods plan.

  • kelly edmiston

    Thanks John. Yes I agree that feminists are seeking power. In the same way African Americans were seeking power during the Civil Rights Movement. It is equality we seek but by nature it is power bc our power has been taken.

  • Al Cruise

    Yes. Love is God’s plan. In my 40 plus years working in Churches, God’s Love was not present in much of the Patriarcal leadership model. The result has been the growing group of ” nones”.

  • Elca

    So that’s reason enough to teach men to “Rule” as God does. We should not reject it because sinful men will fail.
    Do we all Love as Christ does? NO ! we don’t. But we are not going to rejecting Loving , right? We will press unto the mark of the High Calling in Christ Jesus to Love as He does and we Should encourage men to “Rule ” as He does.

    A man “Ruling Well his own home” is a requirement for Church Leadership.[ 1 Timothy 5;17,ch3:4]
    The problem with Christendom is that we do not have enough men, who rule well.
    Maybe a lack of proper parenting and raising a godly seed is part of the problem. But, this is God expect from His Sons.

    You idea of “Rule well” is skewed by men who abuse women and others.
    But that is NOT the standard that God instructs. He does not endorse abuse.

  • Elca

    That’s ok if you do not agree. But the Biblical Fact does not change because you do not agree.

    “Patriarchy” means the Rule of the Father. We see that God, (who chose to reveal to creation as Father,) does indeed Rule this Universe. That is a Biblical Fact to those of Us who believe in the written Word.

    This same God the Father, chose to make Adam in the Flesh first and gave him Dominion Rule over the animals and the female that Father God made.
    It is from these Biblical facts that we get “Patriarchy”…and at NO time did God the Father and Father Adam abuse any of the animals and the woman that God made.
    So “Patriarchy” or the Rule of the Father, is NOT inherently abusive, for it was NOT what God the Father or Adam ( the Father of Mankind) did.
    These are Biblical Facts. Yes?

  • Elca

    In the same way African Americans were seeking power during the Civil Rights Movement

    This is a very unfortunate comparison. The civils right movement for African Americans were born out of Racism and white Institutionalized Racism that was Evil and is responsible for the death of Many Black Folks , including Black women, at the hands of white men.

    God punished Miriam for Racist thoughts. God does not endorse Racism of ANY KIND.
    Your comparison is offensive.
    However, It is God who created male and female ( be they Black or white) and it is God who ordained and instruct Male Headship ( be they Black or white).
    It is God who forbids a woman( be they Black or white) from usurping the Headship of men ( be they Black or white).

    Feminism and the Civil Rights era are not compatible ideals.
    Feminism and the LGBT agenda are the same ideal. Both seek equal right to be and do whatever they feel and Please. Both reject the Word of God as having authority over their desires and actions . Both places higher value in their interpretation of the Scriptures that the Written Text.

    I believe you should retract that comparison.

  • kelly edmiston

    Hi Elca. I will not retract the statement. The same power used to oppress people of color is used to silence and oppress women in the church. It is social control and it is not Gods will nor Gods heart. The case to be made from scripture for God (and Jesus) exalting women in counter-cultural ways is quite simple. I won’t rehash it here. The point is simple, women are seeking equality and churches will have to do a lot of work to keep women silent and in submission. There’s a great hermeneutical dance they have already engaged in. But patriarchy is dying. Women lead companies and nations and churches. Things are changing.

  • Al Cruise

    The ecclesiastical structure of complementarian Evangelicalism is set up to corrupt men. We need to destroy that model.

  • Elca

    Be my guess and destroy egalitarianism as well.
    Then let us get back to teach what the Bible say.
    That the man is the head of the woman and that it forbids a woman from usurping his headship authority.
    Let teach women to be good keepers at home for that too is what the Bible teaches. Yes?

  • Al Cruise

    Have you thought about joining a group like the Amish or something similar? Or there’s a group called ” quivering ” .

  • Elca

    I am my own man. I do not identify with labels, be it Liberal or Conservative, Complementarian or Egalitarian. I am a Born again Christian, not perfect, but pressing on to the mark of the High calling in Christ Jesus. I have no desire to subvert the gospel or lower that Highmark / Standard to please self , culture or others.

  • Elca

    I did not think you were going to retract the statement. After all , it is the Christian thing to do, egalitarians normally do the opposite.
    1 Corinthians 8:13 came to mind,“Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.”

    The same power used to oppress people of color is used to silence and oppress women in the church

    We are obviously speaking of two very different power structure.
    It is a Historical Fact, that in America, White Institutionalized Racism oppressed and Kill Black folks. Many white women benefited from that oppressive and evil system. It is that System that Black folks,( including black women), were fighting against and shed their Blood to brought about Changes for a more “Perfect Union”…

    There is NO biblical justification for the Evils White Institutionalized Racism and Jim Crowism.
    Patriarchy originates from God the Father and handed down to Adam and Noah and following.
    I have demonstrated to you that Not ALL men abuse their wives and women or animals.

    If you want to discard the God given idea because of the abuses of Some men, then would you also discard Democracy as well ? for it is under democracy that both men and women abuse each other.

    The case to be made from scripture for God (and Jesus) exalting women in counter-cultural ways is quite simple.

    And yet Jesus did NOT choose any Woman to be in positions of authority in His Church or the Family. But He did instruct the woman NOT to usurp the authority of men.
    Was Jesus unfair to women? Or was Jesus scared and afraid of the Pharisees and the Rulers of his day?

    It seems to me that what women are seeking is what they already have in God. For He did make them Male and Female and He gave them different but equally important roles for His Glory.
    But if she wants more than that, then isn’t she a daughter of Eve , desiring to be and have what is forbidden by her Maker? Shouldn’t you promote being daughters of Sarah instead?
    Are you not perpetuating a fallacy, leading women astray and away from God’s instructions for her? God will not ask you or women for ideas that makes them feel good. He is telling you and showing the path you should go, a path of righteousness for His Glory. Yes?

    Blessings.

  • Al Cruise

    You fool no one, you choose how much culture you want to please yourself, and justify with your own set of rules. Give up everything you possess, your cell phone , tablet, computer, and everything else, otherwise your a hypocrite.

  • Elca

    Nonsense…technology ( knowledge) will increase, (the Bible said so)but that does not subvert the Gospel of Jesus Christ and has nothing to do with gender roles.

  • Al Cruise

    So predictable.

  • Ldon

    Ok, but do you know where the idea came from?