Three Things Evangelicals Should Stop Saying In Defense of Trump

Three Things Evangelicals Should Stop Saying In Defense of Trump May 7, 2018

The last few blogs I’ve written have been an expression of concern about why evangelicals continue to support, defend and justify the behaviors of Donald Trump in the name of God.  Whenever I write about this topic, I frequently hear the same phrases from his supporters.  The most common being…

1) Only God can know his heart.  

2) Who are we to judge?  

3) David was flawed, too, and he was a man after God’s heart. 

It’s concerning that so many people repeat these phrases verbatim, as if regurgitating an argument that’s been told to them rather than formulating their own original thoughts and responses.

That concern aside, here are why these phrases don’t hold up to scrutiny, and why evangelicals who are intellectually honest and theologically astute should stop saying them.

1) Only God can know his heart. 

This statement is partly true.  God does know Trump’s heart.  And only God can know the totality of what’s in Trump’s (or anyone’s) heart.  But there’s more to the story than that.  Luke 6:45 says, “A good person produces good things from the treasury of a good heart, and an evil person produces evil things from the treasury of an evil heart. What you say flows from what is in your heart.” (NLT)

Which means that if you want to know what’s in a person’s heart, listen to what they say.  Trump slanders, belittles, boasts, bears false witness, calls people demeaning names (like fat ass, ugly and dog) and brags about being able to sexually assault women.  Those words don’t come from a pure, well-intentioned heart.

No one can know anyone else’s heart fully, but all of us can be discerning and believe the words of Jesus, that what we say is a reliable indication of what’s in our hearts.

2) Who are we to judge?

It’s important here to define what the word “judge” means, and what our motives are.

It’s true that we’re not supposed to be judgmental.  We’re not to scrutinize Trump, or anyone else, so we can feel morally superior to them, or so we can belittle them for being a worse person than we are.  That’s unhelpful and unkind.

But we are called to be discerning.  To evaluate objective pieces of information against a moral standard  — for instance, financial records, recorded conversations, on-the-record interviews, public speeches, patterns of behavior, voting records, legal contracts, etc. is not being judgmental; it’s being discerning.  And that’s something we ARE called to do — especially with public figures who will affect not only our own lives, but also the lives of “the least of these,” holding enormous power to do a whole lot of good, or a whole lot of harm, to vulnerable people.

And we’re also called to speak the truth.  It is not only right, but necessary, to speak what’s true about the life God calls us to, and to use that as the standard by which we choose the people and platforms and values we’ll support or oppose in the name of God.  It’s not judgmental to do that.  It’s crucial to speak these truths– and to confront the lies that oppose or undermine truth.  Of course, we’re called to do that with respect and with the right intentions, with the hope that our world becomes more and more aligned with God’s love and light.

3) David was flawed, too, and he was a man after God’s own heart.

Yes, he was flawed.  David had an affair and had that woman’s husband intentionally killed in battle.  But God didn’t let those sins slide.  God sent the prophet Nathan to confront David, and call him to repentance.  And even after he repented and was forgiven, David paid steep consequences for his sin.  His infant son died, and for the rest of his life, David’s household was in utter chaos.

Being someone after God’s heart means being repentant, and being willing to do whatever it takes to make our wrongs right.

If Trump is flawed like David, evangelical leaders should be confronting him like Nathan confronted David, in the hopes of repentance — not continuing to massage his massive ego and congratulate him on being a “Godly” president while he’s shown no repentance or humility and issued no apologies to the people he’s maligned and hurt.

 

 

 

 

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  • Also note: Trump said he doesn’t ask God for forgiveness, whereas David wrote entire poems of repentance.

  • Well said, Sarah. (And Kevin, in his comment below.)

    James wrote that “Faith by itself, without works, is dead” (James, 2:17). And Micah heard from God that he should “do jusrtice, love mercy, and walk humbly with your God” (Micah 6:8).
    By almost any common definition or measure of a Christian life that is an active witness to God’s love, justice, mercy, and forgiveness, the case for our current president is fairly weak.
    And, without going back more than a handful of years, we can see evidence of our two previous presidents (Obama and Bush) who openly discussed their struggles to follow Jesus Christ and live accordingly while serving in the White House in ways not seen from its current resident.

  • Jim Chaffee

    I would also note that Evangelicals didn’t grant the same grace to Bill Clinton that they are giving to Trump. Their response to Clinton was filled with righteous indignation about his moral indiscretions, and rightfully so. I’m afraid that their lack of consistency when it comes to this President defines their support for what it is, purely partisan, not Biblical, and their inconsistency will negate their influence on our culture for generations to come.

  • st

    Absolutely. By supporting Trump, evangelicals have lost any future credibility and moral high ground.

  • One of the problems that those of us who support Trump have with those who don’t is the sense we have that no matter what Trump does, a segment will be opposed–that they see nothing good in him–that they are convinced that somehow he stole the election (and is thus, illegitimate just like they said about Bush); that he is a fraud (by evidence of some failed business practices) and that he is an immoral leech who should not be in a position of power (based on past statements, mostly made in private). Thus Trump becomes whomever you believe him to be. This is not helped by a bias loop which recycles similar statements as fact, while oversimplifying the thinking of those who supported him. . . .I see a distinction between what one does in private and what one does in public. Trump is not hiding behind some pretense, he is real. That was a problem with Obama–and many of the others before him–we knew that there personal lives were not stellar, that they should not be looked at as moral leaders. For example, Obama was known to smoke, but it was hidden. Obama “evolved” on Gay rights, a courtesy not given a conservative. Clinton before becoming president, has been on record as referring to blacks like Obama as not long ago being servants. Yet he got a pass. . . Those of us who support Trump know that he is flawed in his private life. But he is not “phony”-we get the sense that he really understands middle America. . that he did not become president out of some unfulfilled yearning (for he had accomplished all he wished), but rather because he felt that he alone could fix the problems that no one else was addressing. In my mind he is doing that. While his political enemies are trying to get him impeached, he is weathering the storm and has turned the economy around, has revitalized our military and renewed our leadership on the world stage. . . Peace

  • st

    Thanks for your perspective. I would point out that 1) Obama smoking is like Trump eating large quantities of fast food. Neither is healthy, and neither sets a good example for children. And both are personal choices, so of course they mostly happen behind closed doors. 2) There’s no proof that Obama’s persona life was “not stellar.” A man who has been faithfully married to the same woman for 25 years, earned an Ivy League education after starting with nothing, had no major scandals during his campaign or two terms as president and made peace with lots of countries is an excellent moral example. What else could you want? 3) Trump IS phony. Even his hair and skin color are fake. Beyond that, he’s switched political parties five times — he was a democrat from 2001 – 2011 and now he’s a Republican president? AND, for a long time, he supported abortion. He’s had multiple affairs. He’s alienated our closest allies (France and Britain) with his NRA comments. He’s bragged about committing sexual assaults. How can a man who can’t be disciplined, self-controlled, gracious, faithful or kind possibly fix anyone else? He can’t even run his own life well.

  • tabbitha

    If he turned the economy around, it would be getting worse, since the economy had been improving for several years before Trump was elected. He gets some credit for not wrecking it. As for our leadership on the world stage, well, he turned that around. Now none of our allies trust us. I can’t see that as an improvement.

  • otrotierra

    Thank you for presenting Scott with simple facts.

  • otrotierra

    Thank you for presenting truth to Scott, no matter how politically inconvenient it is for white evangelicals still trying to justify the unjustifiable.

  • I don’t really see 2% growth, as had been occurring in the last quarters of Obama as a turned around economy. . . The unemployment rate continues to drop. It had stagnated before his presidency. . .

  • No major scandals?. . well, none reported, but they were there. There was that arms deal with Mexico that resulted in the death of a serviceman, and the scandals involving the IRS, and Benghazi–funny, how those problems just went away. . . Many people had the impression that Obama was not his own person. . that others were pulling the strings. . . Many are not even sure that his biography is true. . . “A man that started with nothing. . “, yet attended the most exclusive prep school in Hawaii. . Who is supposed to be a brilliant student, but who, has kept his school papers out of public view (same with Michelle). . . A man who remained friends with former members of a terrorist organization (the Weather underground). Ayers and Dorn have never apologized. . There was always a mystery surrounding him. . .
    I am glad that he has remained faithfully married, and he appears to be a good parent.
    There is not much about Trump that is unknown. He has had affairs and three marriages. He overeats on junk food–to use your example. He switched parties. So. . . Bill Clinton also ate junk food, was undisciplined in his governing style and had affairs, though he remains married. It did not matter then, so why does it matter now. Clinton was a good president despite his failings.
    The same benefit should be given Trump. As I said, it seems as if nothing he can do will be good, since he is a fraud and a reprobate according to you, thus the confirmation bias.

  • The Mouse Avenger
  • Obscurely

    Brother Scott, with respect and affection, as a pastor I couldn’t disagree with you more strongly. I have no liberal/progressive ax to grind with President Trump, and I agree with you that the largely liberal media have lost their objectivity in reporting about him. I also strongly felt Bill Clinton should have resigned the presidency over the Lewinsky affair. All I’m judging Trump by are his weekly and often daily demonstrations of his moral unfitness for office. I encourage you to read and respond to Michael Gerson’s recent Atlantic essay about the damage evangelical support for Trump is doing to both the country and the church — here’s a link: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/04/the-last-temptation/554066/

  • Obscurely

    In a recent Atlantic magazine essay, Michael Gerson described the damage white evangelical support for Trump has done to both the nation and the church — here’s a link and a powerful quote from it below …
    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/04/the-last-temptation/554066/

    “Democracy is not merely a set of procedures. It has a moral structure. The values we celebrate or stigmatize eventually influence the character of our people and polity. Democracy does not insist on perfect virtue from its leaders. But there is a set of values that lends authority to power: empathy, honesty, integrity, and self-restraint. And the legitimation of cruelty, prejudice, falsehood, and corruption is the kind of thing, one would think, that religious people were born to oppose, not bless. This disfigurement of evangelical faith squanders the reputation of something valuable…. At its best, faith is the overflow of gratitude, the attempt to live as if we are loved, the fragile hope for something better on the other side of pain and death. And this feather of grace weighs more in the balance than any political gain.” (Michael Gerson)

  • Joanna Mandell Tipple

    Hmmm – you wrote what I have been thinking…especially about that “judgment” part. We are called to be discerning as well as to uphold God’s standards. Oh and the thing about consequences? That too. And the what’s in anyone’s heart? Well, I think there’s something about knowing others – “by their fruits you shall know them.” If so, we’ve been seeing a lot of rotten fruit. But I fear that those to whom this is directed will not “hear” any of it. I hate to think that so many people might be so far gone but the fact that they still defend him and his policies; (oh yeah, we are told to care for the orphan, the widow and the refugee – I guess they missed that as well) has me ready to find another way to name those of us who follow Jesus. Evangelical and Christian are looking pretty ragged. And I confess; I spend some of each day seeking forgiveness for the sheer depth of my anger and despair towards those who enable this “Fisher King.”

  • Joanna Mandell Tipple

    Scott – if nothing else, he BRAGGED on tape that he assaults women. Please, let that sink in for a moment. I will not repeat the litany of wrongdoing but if that alone didn’t make you rethink your position than I have to wonder what else you find acceptable that under any other circumstances and done by any other human you might find abhorrent. (I say might because if you are ok with him doing this then maybe its no big deal. And if that’s the case, you have have no credibility regarding anything.)

  • Joanna Mandell Tipple

    Again, if you actually believe that President Obama was not born in the US, you continue to undermine your own credibility.

  • Rudy Schellekens

    As a member of the State Platform committee for the GOP, I had an interesting conversation. There was a push to incorporate the death penalty as one of the planks. When I asked for a reason, it was a reference to the Bible. Although I am a believer in the Bible, and what it proclaims, I had a bit of a difficult moment there. Earlier in the platform there was the statement about the kind of people we should support in running for office. People of high integrity, moral values… I suggested we ask the president to resign, since those standards were not met. And, if we want to use the Bible as a basis to bring back the death penalty, we should be consistent – and Trump should never have been supported by people who accepted the GOP Platform.

  • Robert J Naumann

    Let’s face it, the Evangelicals will forgive Trump for almost anything as long as he is able to appoint judges to the SCOTUS that will overturn Roe V Wade. That is what it is all about, isn’t it?

  • Kanawah

    Every thing that the orangutan does is grounds to oppose him.
    He is destroying our nation, and he is working on destroying the world.
    He opposes efforts to stop and ultimately reverse climate change, before it destroys the world.
    He has started to dump the Iran agreement, which will result in Iran so having atomic weapons.
    He is playing kiss a$$ with North Korea, which will result in them possessing nuclear rockets.
    His (and the republicans) tax giveaway to the rich will wreck the economy.

  • Wile F. Coyote

    Appointing justices to the USSC and the rest of the federal judiciary who are far right wing politically and dominionist, anti-secular, pro-corporation Christians is about half of what it is all about.

    The other half is eliminating any governmental control over corporations and the people who run them, eliminating or at least rendering helpless everything Great Society, New Deal, and post-Teddy Roosevelt progressivism which preceeded the former two governmental initiatives. And returning federal government to the departments it was comprised of prior to the creation of the Dept of Ed, which of course has to either go away or all funding administered by it privatized. Ending progressive taxation. Privatization. Austerity.

    Completely unfettered capitalism, boys and girls. The way god always intended it.

  • Thomas Moon

    I agree, Robert. But I’m also beginning to think that being “pro-life” gives many the moral cover they need for other political beliefs that are anti-gospel and a rationalization for personal feelings such as greed, cruelty, and racism that they may not want to admit – not even to themselves. Being opposed to abortion allows many Christians to feel morally superior without any real personal cost.

  • Donald Grouns

    What Donald Trump does in private IS who he is. What he does in public is part showmanship (a reality show) but his character or lack thereof come through too. But his public statements doom him. He has said on multiple occasions that he has never asked God forgiveness. On another occasion he was asked: “Who do you say Jesus is?” His response was: ” Jesus to me is somebody I can think about for security and confidence. Somebody I can revere in terms of bravery and in terms of courage and, because I consider the Christian religion so important, somebody I can totally rely on in my own mind.” (Interview with Cal Thomas). As a believer we are told what our answer should be regarding that question and he failed. When someone asks me who Jesus is I have no problems saying that He is God come in the flesh and that he is my Redeemer, my Savior.
    As for your assertions that Donald Trump is fixing things… The fact (not alternate) is that only those with great wealth are doing better and everyone else is losing ground. Prices are going up and wages for the most part are remaining stagnant when adjusted for inflation declining. The Country is enduring one scandal after another and anything pointing out Mr. Trumps shortcomings are called fake news, while he speaks and tweets one disingenuous statement after another.
    Proverbs 29 says “If a ruler listens to falsehood, all his officials will be wicked.” I believe we are seeing this being played out before us. Proverbs 16 says “It is an abomination to kings to do evil, for the throne is established by righteousness.> I believe that this is the case with this administration

  • I disagree that many people are as desperate to justify Trump’s behavior in the name of God. Most people are interested in the President’s ability to grow the economy, create high paying jobs and to keep them safe. Trump’s personal behavior as a New York playboy was well known and puts him in a league with the Kennedys. Your assumption that Evangelicals have to defend him is also flawed. Many are astonished at his accomplishments given the constant interference and praise God for allowing him to be President. We do not owe Progressives an apology or a defense. You owe us an apology for the last eight years of incompetence and purposeful sabotage of our country.

  • LastManOnEarth

    I just threw up in my mouth a little reading this. Zoinks!

  • Castor oil is a good purgative and makes stuff come out the correct end…

  • Joanna Mandell Tipple

    You may disagree Bob with the premise, ( people justifying him and his behavior in the name of God) so I will assume you have missed the articles and reports on how the evangelicals are telling people that he was chosen by God to be end up in the White House.

  • I don’t miss much in politics.
    It is really not important what Evangelicals say about politics anymore than what some “celebrity” says. People who vote based on another’s recommendation are denying one of their most important privileges. This type of vote should not be counted in my opinion. However, with 90% of all media coverage negative someone has to support the President.
    But, it is true that God chooses our leaders; both good and bad. And he expects us to obey them and give them respect; hard as that may be to accept.

  • I did not say that. . .I know he was born in Hawaii. . that what not what I was referring to. My point is simply that we know more about Trump’s biography than Obama’s, Obama was basically an unknown before he entered Congress. As such much of his past is still largely blank. We know that he did not include everything in his biographies. Especially unknown is his formative years. He seemed conflicted. He spent time trying to present himself to the Black community as authentic. It has proved hard, since he was able to attend the best prep school in Hawaii and then Harvard. It is hard to reconcile that image with an all-American boy whose white grandmother, he stated, was very important to him. living in Kansas. .

  • This has been discussed ad nasuem. He bragged, that as a celebrity, he could assault women. .A fact that the other person acknowledged by his laughter. . . But seriously, THAT was the deciding factor? I do not believe it was a deciding factor for most people. . . We are not moralists, we did not elect someone because they stated off-camera, that they as a celebrity, could do anything he wanted. We supported him in part, because we saw him as the better choice. Regarding personal morality, Mrs. Clinton was seen as an enabler. Her husband did have numerous sexual encounters–once while president. She, while in Arkansas sicced the press on his accusers–Broadrick, etc–. and defended her husband. It was apparently an open secret that Bill Clinton was a adulterer, and an abuser of women. But at the time (1990s) that was not a disqualifier. But by 2016, her stance had become a liability, not just with the conservatives, but with many younger feminist. . .

  • A thoughtful response. . . We will have to see how things work out. Trump did say those things. I agree. I do not see his (mis)understandings about Jesus to have an impact on his presidency. We have had presidents with little religious inclination–though most of our recent one’s have, as that seems to be a trademark, at least since Carter. . . Taft was a Unitarian. No one knows about Monroe’s faith, for in his writings he did was almost completely silent. . . Yes, there are a lot of scandals, but it is difficult to tell if the scandals are the result of maleficence by the administration, or a put-up job by his opponents. I see mostly the latter. Watergate and Teapot Dome were big scandals that occurred during an administration. So far, there is nothing that has occurred while he is president. Perhaps something just prior to becoming president, but that as of yet remains unproven. We need to be patient, give him the courtesy to enact his policies without the reflexive impulse to condemn. . . Obama’s first 2 years, “W”‘s first year, before 911, and Clinton’s first years, were all chaotic.

  • I appreciate your perspective. . . I will say that he is not like other presidents–at least recently– that has its own plusses and minuses. What is the biggest thing so far, that for you, connotes a “moral unfitness for office”? Yes, he pulled out of agreements–those are worthy of debates. Yes he has a tougher policy on immigrants, again philosophically one can debate how open we should be. .I am a bit perplexed by your statement, for “moral unfitness”, is such a vague term on one hand that can be defined in numerous ways, and on the other it connotes a type of theocratic dogmatism that I as a libertarian find challenging. In short, I am not seeking a moral leader, as much as a political one. So far, IMO he seems to be faithful to the constitution. . . we will have to see

  • Joanna Mandell Tipple

    As Sister Joan Chittister has noted, they are “pro-birth,” not “pro-life.”

  • Joanna Mandell Tipple

    God expects us
    to “…and what does the Lord require of you
    but to do justice, and to love kindness,
    and to walk humbly with your God?” ~ Micah 6:8

    “Bear one another’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.” Galatians 6:2

    “‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.” Matthew 25:40

    He expects us to use the brain we were given and be wise and discerning.

  • Donald Grouns

    I cannot understand the blindness that ardent Trump supporters exhibit. They refuse to see all the lies and derogatory defamation and plain old meanness and bullying. If Trump were a Democrat they would be livid and he would no longer be in office. Instead they are enablers just as the Vice President and ignore the truth in order to keep power and control. It is time to call sin sin and start being accountable and demanding accountability… because there is coming a Judgment Day when all the rhetoric in the world will not be acceptable/

  • Everett Kier Jr

    I await the follow up article–“Three things progressives should stop saying in regards to the current president”

  • Joanna Mandell Tipple

    I’m not sure about the “we” you are referring to. Given the books he’s written and the amount of searching that went on in order to discredit him, I am pretty sure there is enough information for people to determine what formed President Obama. The fact that Trump got publicity on all the society pages while living in NY doesn’t mean Pres. Obama should have had as well. The real issue concerns what exactly we do know about Mr. Trump. His willingness to deceive people and lie and smear others is enough to make me realize he is not only not a nice person, he should not be in the Oval Office and more to the point of this article, anyone seeking to depict him as an example of Christian values is perhaps not understanding what Christian values actually are. The man doesn’t even have a passing acquaintance with the bible yet tried to refer to it in a speech, presumably to earn some points.

  • Donald Grouns

    Interesting that you are so condemning of Trumps opponent while defending his deplorable behavior as unimportant. When it is a Republican character and integrity do not matter… only when the candidate is a Democrat. Shows the absolute hypocrisy. It is beyond my comprehension how any evangelical can just excuse this man as if he is great when his whole life has been one of cheating people, lying, ripping off taxpayers and contractors and scamming in addition to his philandering. I guess as described in Biblical foretelling even the elect can be deceived by anti-Christs and when someone refuses to acknowledge that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh, that is one of the testing criteria for an anti-Christ.

  • Donald Grouns

    Although I am not a so called progressive, it is interesting that you use that word in response to an article about evangelicals. Some of the most Christlike believers I know are “progressives” who live what they profess. When one reads the description of followers of Christ in Scripture, one does not see the word Republican or conservative, but one does see a lot of other words that are not found in character traits of those of that partisan persuasion

  • Gregory Smith

    You really need to get over it. What someone has done in the past is irrelevant to what they are “currently doing”. Your comment that there were no scandals during the Obama administration is simply ignorant. 1) Fast and furious 2)Benghazi 3) IRS targeting conservatives 4)Clinton emails 5) Eric Holder held in contempt of Congress (he resigned). 6) Obamacare (pass it and then we’ll read it) 7)Illegal wire tapping 8) The Veterans Dept. scandal. And more. Here is a very partial list of what Trump has done outside of creating the best job environment in memory (BTW that helps everyone especially the poor.

    Rather than list them ALL (including securing the release of 3 political prisoners from North Korea) read them for yourself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_executive_actions_by_Donald_Trump#2017

    As you will see more had been accomplished for the good of America than in the previous decade. You can tell a disciple by their fruit (not their rhetoric (Trump is phony)). Stop letting your emotions and prejudices cloud your “judgement”.

  • Donald Grouns

    Exactly.

  • Donald Grouns

    I like that quote, I am going to use it.

  • Donald Grouns

    Thanks for sharing that link to the Atlantic Magazine article. It was good.

  • summers-lad

    As if being pro-birth cancels out the force of James 2:10-13.

  • David Cromie

    Apparently we are all made in the image of the supposed ‘god’ of the OT. What an evil, and mixed up ‘god’ it must be, (unless the Great Orange Maggot is some kind of private joke, since some fundamentalists even go for the ‘divinely ordained ‘ view of authority!).

  • lagibby

    “without any real personal cost.” Amen to that! As Gloria Steinem quoted, “if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.”

  • And what does that mean regarding our President please?

  • lagibby

    This: “If Trump is flawed like David, evangelical leaders should be confronting him like Nathan confronted David, in the hopes of repentance — not continuing to massage his massive ego and congratulate him on being a “Godly” president while he’s shown no repentance or humility and issued no apologies to the people he’s maligned and hurt.”
    We need more prophetic voices from the ranks of Christian leaders. Where is our Amos, our Jeremiah, our Micah? Someone to point out to self-righteous Evangelicals scripture that says God doesn’t want ceremony; God wants justice. As in Amos 5:21-24:
    “I hate, I despise your festivals, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies. 22 Even though you offer me your burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them; and the offerings of well-being of your fatted animals I will not look upon.23 Take away from me the noise of your songs; I will not listen to the melody of your harps.24 But let justice roll down like waters, and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream.”

  • Joanna Mandell Tipple

    It means we go back to the beginning of this discussion….his words and behavior do not reflect anything remotely related to living as a Christian and it’s time he stopped getting the free, very misguided pass from the so-called evangelicals. It’s time they and he be held accountable for his policies which are the exact opposite of what God would have us do.

  • Everett Kier Jr

    My point exactly. Why target evangelicals? Are there no evangelicals who live what they profess? In like manner there are words in scripture that seem to be missed in the call for a “Christianity” that is solely moral and moralistic.

  • My premise is that God selects our leaders and we have to obey them – this is why our society is civilized. Without government anarchy evolves. I would add that almost every politician is a liar and their conduct is at odds with the bible and even your definition of Christian life.
    Judging President Trump as not being Christian is not your place either – did you judge Obama when he divided this country along racial, social and gender lines to stay in power? We are dealing with affront to God everyday.
    No one in this country is responsible for our government’s policies except those elected who govern us. The remedy for displeasure is our vote not judgment. Notice that the bible does say judge not lest you be judged. Why does it say that – because all of us have sinned and many more egregiously than our politicians. The bible says we cannot commit murder but the people on these Progressive Sites approve of, support and defend Abortion while the Evangelicals do not.
    I’d rather be held responsible for enforcing the Rule of Law which I was elected to uphold and defend than committing murder by killing our children everyday in the thousands.

  • Donald Grouns

    Sir, I think you are mistaken in your understanding of what it means to judge. The New Testament is full of examples of people’s actions being judged and condemned. Even in your own writing you passed judgment on President Obama claiming that he “divided this country”, so why is it that you can do it and you condemn others for it. Jesus tells us to look at our own sin before judging someone else. The Bible tells us we are to confront others sin with truth and love in respect. Proverbs 31 says “Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.” So apparently there are times when we are supposed to judge and speak up for justice. In fact there are dozens of passages of Scripture that say this same thing.
    While I believe that abortion is murder and that it is sin, I also believe that allowing millions of babies to die in other countries from famine and diseases is equally sinful from God’s point of view. This President and his supporters in Congress have cut off billions of dollars in aid to countries where children are dying by the minute not to mention those killed by our unjustified military actions based on politics rather than justice.
    As for Trump being “held responsible for enforcing the Rule of Law”, how can you overlook his total and complete disregard for the law and the judicial system. He even pardoned someone who thumbed his nose at the judicial system whom the Bible also said are put into power by God. It seems sir that you want to pick and choose what applies to whom and when. The Bible does not really give that option.

  • You are not reading carefully enough. I ask Joanna if she judged Obama when he divided the country to get re-elected. This was merely stating a fact. That was his campaign strategy and it worked. Hillary tried to do the same thing but it did not work.

    The bible is one work: Old and New Testaments. The examples in both are there for our illumination. No one is saying that you should not speak up to defend the poor and needy. However, the US is the single most generous country on the face of the earth and sends billions of dollars overseas to friendly nations and to non-friendly nations.

    Let’s see some support for these outrageous claims please, “This President and his supporters in Congress have cut off billions of dollars in aid to countries where children are dying by the minute.” And this one, “those killed by our unjustified military actions based on politics rather than justice.” And this one, “how can you overlook his total and complete disregard for the law and the judicial system.”

    I will respond if you have some facts.

  • Obscurely

    Obviously as a pastor my criteria for judging Trump will be different from many. Part of a pastor’s prophetic office is calling out our leaders when they fail to uphold a high personal moral standard. As many have noted, Trump is daily coarsening our public discourse with his conduct and behavior and he’s a terrible role model for our children and young people — why doesn’t the damage he’s doing in the moral/civic arena (vs policy) disturb you as a person of faith, a parent, or just a concerned citizen?

  • Joanna Mandell Tipple

    Given the amount of women who have come forward to say he touched them without consent, I’d say that’s a lot of smoke for there to be no fire. And Pres. Clinton, while he did do wrong was not being hailed as the savior of our country by people who call themselves Christian. As a matter of fact, they had no trouble condemning him. So, either the behavior is wrong or it isn’t…and the decision should not be made because of party affiliation or that you’re ok w/the behavior in one person because you believe they will make policies you support while condemning another for the same behavior but it’s really because you don’t agree w/their policies.

  • Joanna Mandell Tipple

    The discussion here should be in response to the point of the article which addresses the fact that “Evangelical Christians” are ignoring his behavior and holding him up as a role model of the Christian faith. He is not and unless something drastic happens to change this reality, should NOT regarded as such.

  • You state, “. . .He should not be in the Oval Office and . . . anyone seeking to depict him as an example of Christian values is . . not understanding what [they] actually are”
    That is of course a conclusion, and opinion. You do not feel that he should be president. From that statement comes the belief that everything he says is wrong. OK, I can get that, for we all have our opinions. . But, you then state that those who support him are, at best misinformed Christians. That again is opinion. Unlike your assessment of Trump, such a conclusion insults his supporters. It used to be that one of the things that progressive Christians prided themselves in was their tolerance and their willingness to see shades of gray. Yet, in your indictment of Christians who support Trump you see no gray area. That is fundamentalist thinking. Black or white. Us or them. . . It also indicates an unwillingness to engage in those who see things differently (except to berate them) and a judgmentalism that again is typically more in line with fundamentalist theology. . . I am not an evangelical. I am actually rather moderate in my theology. . .I am often critical of them as I am of the liberal Christians. . . I try to see in everyone. I therefore see in Trump someone who is trying. I do not know how faithful he is to God. I did not know how faithful Obama was either. It did not matter. . . I hope we can get past our disagreements and unite as Christians. I would more respect for your side if, you would at least, not indict his followers with impure motives or question our faith. Peace

  • I am not an evangelical. I am actually a Lutheran (ELCA) and quite moderate. I however try to see the good in everyone. . . You are passionate in your beliefs, but everything is not black or white. He is not an “:anti-Christ”. I do not think that he has refused to acknowledge Christ, and do not see that as a qualifier for president. . . Keep the criticism on policy please. Do not impugn his supporters or his faith. That is unfair. . . Peace

  • okmich

    In other words, you will never like whatever he does. So you don’t have any ground to judge.

  • okmich

    I stumbled at the site and so astounded at what people – Christians are saying. It’s really pathetic.

    So the political struggle in the US has really torn a line in the church.

    If you for once think that the world will accept you because you appear moral or awesome, wait a minute – they killed Jesus.

    So when you all are done tearing yourselves apart because of politicians, they – the politicians are coming for you.

    I am verse in geopolitics (a media analyst for a TV station) but I know where it stops. We are not of this world. Jesus said it and it is true. The WOLRD will never like you. The didn’t like Jesus.

    Disclaimer: I am not American but I wanted Trump to win despite my non-acceptance of his demeanor. I bought his book “Think like a billionaire” in 2008 and read only a few lines to come to that conclusion. Gave the book out the next day.

    Nevertheless, Trump was a man for his country and he is president. End of story.

    I remember my Dad and Mum voting two different parties in the presidential elections in Nigeria. They joke about it, laughed and that was it.

    When did love leave the church? And who you vote is now a yardstick for morality? As though the US has had a moral leader in the last century?

    Please guys, this article is today’s problem of the American church. Change the discuss. Choose love.

  • Everett Kier Jr

    Wow Bob…masterful. I enjoyed, thanks.

  • John Gills

    A fading power structure will defend itself at all cost no matter how viciously or hypocritically. Perhaps it will be born again?

  • Obscurely

    In a democracy like ours it’s not the elected “leaders” Christians obey it’s the LAWS they make on our behalf that we obey — and even then St. Paul says we obey God’s law above earthly laws. And obeying earthly American law doesn’t mean Christians can’t criticize it by exercising their right to free speech like every other citizen …

  • Obscurely

    It doesn’t matter if Trump has “acknowledged Christ” — as Jesus himself said, we’ll be judged by the fruits of our faith, esp by whether we helped the poor and the lowly, the despised and rejected of our society — in sum, “faith without works is dead.”

  • Obscurely

    It would help if we could see more gray in your own opinions, Scott — I’ve read back through all your posts and (for example) I don’t see ANY concern expressed whatsoever for the terrible moral example Trump is setting for our children. To practice what I’m preaching here, I’ll give Trump full credit for appointing Supreme Court justices who will help defend freedom of religion, but that doesn’t relieve me from my duty as a Christian to call him out on his moral failures …

  • A distinction without a difference. Congress makes the laws and Presidents sign it and their Executive branch enforces compliance. Our Government is civil not religious but it is based on Judeo-Christian principles. The First and Second amendments are under attack by Progressives at this time. If you support free speech you may have to defend it.

  • Obscurely

    Of course there’s a difference, sir! If Donald Trump tells me to shoot someone on Fifth Avenue, I can ignore him without fear of being arrested — but if he signs a law that Congress passed and the courts uphold that says I have to kill, then I can contemplate the cost of obeying God instead of man’s law …

  • The Courts have decided to allow abortion and that is against God’s law. The courts have decided to allow same sex marriage and that is against God’s law. This was done by judges.

    If I may, our President is not going to ask you to do something like that. This President is focused on getting things done not destroying them.

  • liberalfanatic

    If you believe you are a Christian, Jesus specifically has given us some commands passed to us in the Bible: we are to love one another, as Jesus loved us and we are to abide in his teachings. Jesus also warned people about supposed followers of Jesus who do not actually live their lives by the principles that God wants everyone to live. In Matthew 7:21-23 (NABRE), Jesus says,

    21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, [a] but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ 23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. [b] Depart from me, you evildoers.’

    Then later as recorded in Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus told us about the people who will be included in those who will inherit the kingdom of God. He says,

    31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, … he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37

    Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ 41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.”

    If you support Trump being unjust to the least of God´s children, including immigrants in need (“a stranger and you gave me no welcome) and you support that people lose health care so they cannot get their health care needs ministered to, you are being unjust to Jesus and Jesus will disavow you; that is the radical claim of the Bible.

    We are commanded to show love, kindness and generosity to those in need. Where is that in the Republican platform, where is it in their legislative agenda? Where is that in Trump´s tweets, in his bullying, lying, in his administrative appointments? So I agree, I cannot see how Christians could really be following Trump because he is following Jesus´ any of Jesus´ commands. If they say that they are either lying to the public or to themselves.

    Now, we all are in favor of more jobs, and better ones, but when have Republican administrations actually created conditions for more or better jobs?

    The Reagan and the Bush Administrations gave us war, not work, and helped the best U.S. jobs be shipped overseas. Whole neighborhoods in industrial areas became desolate because peoples jobs were sent elsewhere by greedy corporate executives that gave themselves huge bonuses for doing this cheered on by the media and rich republican politicians in particular, who claimed they were making the US great!

    At the same time, huge amounts of our tax dollars went to the arms industry to finance the dirty wars of rich South American dictators against Catholic bishops, Christian ministers, nuns, students, and poor indigenous people in Latin America.

    In Iraq, our tax dollars were used to destroy a secular Arab government, (one which actually tolerated Christianity -unlike our Saudi “allies”) in order to gain control over its oil. At the same time they built a huge deficit by funneling our US tax dollars to corporations run by friends of the Republican President, Vice-President and other wealthy Republican Congressmen supposedly to pay for war supplies, much of which were (according to my nephew who was there at the time in the military), faulty- vehicle batteries which didn´t work, flak jackets that didn´t protect the life of US soldiers, vastly inflated prices for everything including things as basic as the water and Coca Cola for the soldiers to drink, etc.

    Yes, indeed there is a Republican political swamp that needs to be drained, but Trump could repent his election time rhetoric, repent his life spent as an abusive rich spoiled brat, turn to people of good will such as Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, and look for others to try to truly help him reverse the political mess that has built up through all the years of corporate money buying politicians.

    However, he continues to act as a rich spoilt, teenager: lying, bullying, insulting with his tweets, deceiving and bilking the US tax payers, instead.

    If you are not Christian or not American- for example, if you are Russian and atheist, and think the US is your enemy, then I understand why you might support Trump. He makes the US look bad in the entire world. For example, the support of some evangelicals for Trump and the Republican agenda, an agenda which the European atheists and Christians I know via business , lead these people to think all Christians are hypocritical, small minded and cruel! So if you are atheist, you have tarnished the image of Jesus in the world!

    If you are Russian, you have tarnished the image of US compassion, intelligence and leadership in the world.

    (By the way, the US never invaded Russia- why don’t Russian hackers go after the Germans or French, for a change!)

  • liberalfanatic

    While I do not support abortion, I have searched the Bible from Genesis to Revelations and even looked at passages in their original languages and I haven’t found one word clearly written about abortion.

    Historically you can find references to such practices going back to the time of the ancient Egyptians, perhaps from Abraham and Sarah´s time, even. In the Bible, armies are condemned for ripping open pregnant women, obviously killing both the mother and children so this is not specifically condemning abortion, but condemning wartime atrocities being carried by soldiers. Human sacrifice is condemned, child sacrifice is condemned but no specific references to voluntarily ending pregnancies at all!

    Jesus also didn’t mention one word on this issue. (If he did, none of his followers thought it was important enough to write down.) So why is this one issue so much more important than actually following Jesus´ commands to us to take care of each other. I really need someone to explain this to me.

  • You were doing good until you said, “If you support Trump being unjust to the least of God´s children, including immigrants in need (“a stranger and you gave me no welcome) and you support that people lose health care so they cannot get their health care needs ministered to, you are being unjust to Jesus and Jesus will disavow you; that is the radical claim of the Bible.” That comment is not biblical and not factually correct either. Our President is not responsible to feed and clothe the world as you see it. Neither is he responsible to provide free healthcare to all US citizens and illegal immigrants as you see it.

    You do realize that President Trump has the right of Free Speech like all of us. Correct?
    You do realize that all Presidents have the right to choose whom they will for appointed offices?

    When all you watch is Fake News you get statements like, “Now, we all are in favor of more jobs, and better ones, but when have Republican administrations actually created conditions for more or better jobs?” Do you not see the huge economic renewal that is going on in the country?

    Bernie Sanders does not know how to pay for what he proposes to spend; Elizabeth Warren lied about her heritage to get her position at Harvard. What makes her lie any different?

    If you don’t want the Tax Cut send me yours. Statements like this come from Democrat talking points and are lies, ” He makes the US look bad in the entire world.” Nothing could be further from the truth! Try reading about North Korea and take off the blinders!

    When you finally learn what the Obama administration did to candidate Trump and then President Trump ( which is now well know and documented in Conservative circle ) you may understand that your comments are based on lies and misdirection. I’ll give you the latest tidbit. The FBI actually put an FBI Spy in the Trump organization in the hops of preventing his win and then hoping to help get him impeached.

    If you are going to try and link Trump’s actions to the bible you will have to try harder.

  • Abortion is evil and nothing less than murder. You are looking too hard. Many scriptures condemn the action. See what you think of this one:
    Psalm 139:13-14
    (13) For You formed my inward parts;
    You covered me in my mother’s womb.
    (14) I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
    Marvelous are Your works,
    And that my soul knows very well.

    Apprarently God knows us in the womb!

  • liberalfanatic

    Obviously, but God knows what will be in the future, and every one who will ever exist and those who will never exist, including babies that miscarry before birth. This scripture in no way deals with intentional abortion, (which I do not support). This does not address that fact that intentional abortion existed, and is no where addressed in the Bible. Your word and interpretation is not God´s word. You are not infallible. How do you know we are right and Hilary is wrong. From all the evidence I’ve heard of, she is Christian, as well.

    (My sister, who works in government in a Republican administration actually met Hilary in a work setting and has nothing but good things to say about her, her dedication and professionalism, by the way.)

  • liberalfanatic

    Actually, I worked in the public service sector, studied the statistics collected from the US Census Bureau under different Presidential administrations and talked to people who collected the information about how many people actually lost their jobs or were able to find new ones and at what salary under different administrations. Statistically, if you benefited in Republican administrations, you were already probably one of the wealthy. Why don’t you stop watching the news and talk to real people, instead? If you want specific statistics about who gained in our economy during Republican administrations, Bernie Sanders was right. The rich got richer and the people doing most of the work in the U.S. either held our own or got proportionately poorer.

    For me, I developed a health problem that I wasn’t responsible for (cancer -I was a non-smoker, non-drinker, followed a healthy diet and exercised), and being covered by American Insurance, this left me deeply in debt, a debt that took me years to work my way out of. It also left my family vulnerable because It occurred when I left work to get more qualifications in grad school, so before Obamacare, I was unable to receive further coverage, once employed full time again because of my pre-existing condition.

    As to Elizabeth Warren, we only have yours and others slurs against her and nothing to prove she lied at all about her heritage, while I have literally heard multiple lies out of the mouth of Trump, which he never apologizes for. This is not fake news. On the campaign trail anyone could listen to him say one thing one day, then say he didn’t say that thing, at a later date. Obviously, he thought everyone in the country was stupid, without memory. Maybe that is your “norm”, now, but that is not the norm for everyone, and was not for the followers of Jesus.

    The original question people are answering here is specifically why conservative Evangelicals (who claim to follow Jesus) find justification in supporting Trump, considering his public conduct including, but not limited to public lying.

    Trump can lie as much as he wants to,-there is freedom of speech, but followers of Jesus are called to support speakers of the truth. Jesus never calls us to support lying or twitter bullying. The prophet of God, confronted King David for breaking the laws of David and of God.

    When the King of Israel broke God´s law and acted unjustly, the prophets weren’t called to support those kings, they were called to call them to repent.

    This country’s government is not put in place by God, as David was, but by less than the majority of the US population. Trump is not our King and the designers of the US Constitution would be turning in their graves to read people saying that people shouldn’t be critical of our president. Historically, they surely were critical of the actions and behaviors of Presidents they did not agree with and that is why the title is Mr. President, not his or her majesty. They did not believe in the divine right of even the kings of the world and said that rulers got their right to rule by the consent of those being ruled, only.

  • Obscurely

    Nice try to change the subject, Bob — but you haven’t refuted my point that it’s our LAWS we choose to obey and not the political leaders we elect to make the laws …

  • liberalfanatic

    And, the Church doesn’t exist for the comfort of the Church, but to be a witness to the unbelieving world to God´s love for the world through Jesus. We feel safer having judges that defend our freedom to express our faith, but at what cost to the morals of our children?

    Is lying, and grabbing and kissing unsuspecting women, and much more, what our sons are to see as admirable? Is that what they are to imitate and aspire to?

    And what about everyone’s daughters, sisters, and mothers?

    When these depreciating attitudes are expressed about women on Dr. House on the TV or in movies, we can turn off the TV or walk out of the theater. For example, parents need to not buy video games promoting such behaviors, but some of us would like to be able to turn off our president because he does not represent what we want America to be, what we want the world to think of us as Americans nor how we want non-Christians to think of Christianity.

    For that reason, we have the right to ask Evangelicals who are our sisters and brothers in Jesus to not defend Trumps offensive behavior and tweets, and uncompassionate policies, because they and we are called to be the face of Jesus to the world.

  • The biggest lie told in years was by President Obama selling Obamacare, “You can keep your Doctor….
    Glad Obamacare worked for you; Trump will replace it not delete it.
    Your hatred of President Trump has blinded you to reality.
    Of course Presidential politics is a blood sport. Your just not allowed to draw blood…

  • Oh, but I disagree. It is the key to the entire question.
    No one questions murder. Abortionists say the fetus is not an unborn human but just a mass of tissue.
    Psalm 139: 13-14 answers that question completely.

    As to Hillary she is, as I call her, The Great Criminal; and her time is about up…

  • liberalfanatic

    Do you actually know Hillary? Have you ever worked with her or her foundation? Do you know anyone who has actually met her who is not a political opponent of hers? Trump had no problem with either Clinton until he ran for President and she was his opponent and since his base always wanted to crucify them both, Trump had to go along.

  • liberalfanatic

    Looking at every verse talking about birth, womb, murder, etc. the Bible clearly states that life begins with breath. It even states that God breathes in Adam the breath of life. So what is murder? A woman drinking alcohol that kills or deforms her baby before she knows she is pregnant? Taking medications to treat an infection that could take your life and which kill your unborn child when you didn’t know you were pregnant? You see, there is much more in this question than you ever thought about and you can blame women for doing things that men do naturally, when you are not God to know the truth about this issue.

    You are not even a woman and have never felt the life of a child within you, nor have you naturally lost a child early, as I did, with God´s reassurance that that child had not yet been alive.

  • liberalfanatic

    I don’t hate Trump. He is a child of God, as even atheists are, even though they don’t know it. To call him to repent is what we all must do to face our maker. However, we are not to support him in hurting others.

    Under Obamacare people like me could actually get to see a doctor and pay for it without going even more broke. Under my previous insurance coverage which I paid for, I didn’t actually get to chose my doctor at all and I couldn’t change my surgeon when the person turned out to be extremely irresponsible because the insurance company, chosen by my University, chose the doctor for me and would only pay if I went to that doctor in that hospital. I couldn’t keep my doctor, at all, nor could I get rid of a bad one.

  • liberalfanatic

    I am waiting to see a better health care system and would love to see one that is better than Obamacare. None proposed so far cover more people, give more flexibility or make things cheaper or of better quality.

    Actually, years ago, I watched Hillary Clinton fight to try to change the old lack of health care system for too many people, and came to like her as I watched her fight to try to get health care passed for people who Insurance companies wouldn’t cover. After my Biblical search about the abortion issue, I leave that issue up to God, but fighting to get the sick healed was something Jesus specifically commanded his followers to do. It is Biblically pro-life and Hillary truly tried against great odds.

    I listened to the Congressional hearings on the congressional channel, between University classes – something nobody does during normal business hours- so congressmen said whatever they wanted to without expecting it to get into the press. That is what turned me into an independent, politically, because I listened to supposedly “pro-life” Republicans say in congressional chambers things that made them sound like Nazis. I distinctly remember one pro-lifer say that he had money to pay for his healthcare and if anybody else did not, then it would be better for the country if that person just died!

    Really truly, a “pro-life” Republican member of the House of Representatives really did say that, in an active congressional session! And many others said similar things, but in more polite ways.

    I will never again in my life believe a Republican politicians pro-life claim.

    I don’t hate these people, but I do listen to what people actually say and do, not just watch the news or Internet propaganda. You should try it. It will change your life (unless you are paid to push a political or business agenda, then northing will change what you write.)

  • Joanne Lindstrand

    So, a man who has ruined countless hardworking Americans by refusing to pay his debts is “honest?” A man who walks into a dressing room full of more or less naked teenage girls is “genuine?” A man who seems to genuinely believe that only people of northern European ancestry are real Americans should be president of the most diverse nation in the world? Why, why do you hate America so much that you think we deserve this 5th rate criminal for a president? Bbbbbbbut Obama smoked the perfectly legal product tobacco, so he was unfit to be President!!! My dad a veteran, smoked for 60 years and Cadet Bone Spurs wouldn’t have been fit to be in My dad’s presence.

  • steve

    Trump’s presidency proves that no gods give a single fuck about any of us.

  • David Cromie

    “While his political enemies are trying to get him impeached, he is weathering the storm and has turned the economy around, has revitalized our military and renewed our leadership on the world stage. . .”. Now that really is fake news! What world are you living in?

  • It is a point that we are subject to Laws not Politicians in this country.

  • Argumentation without purpose. Physical life begins in the womb otherwise why take a child early in the case of complications. We are composed of flesh but we have the Spirit of Man from God that makes us human and not animal. When the child is aborted the Spirit goes back to God and the body back to the earth. God know what we did to the Spirit and He remembers. Yes children die in the womb prematurely from other causes and this is not abortion but that child is still part of God’s plan and will be reunited with you in the next age as will all aborted children. That is the Plan of God for Man as nothing the Evil One has done will be allowed to stand.

  • Chari McCauley

    The bible says we cannot commit murder but the people on these Progressive Sites approve of, support and defend Abortion while the Evangelicals do not.

    Wait, what about the pregnant mothers and children who die under our bombs, if they’re fortunate enough to die, and not live lame or worse? You do defend America’s “right to go to war” don’t you?

  • Chari McCauley

    As to Hillary she is, as I call her, The Great Criminal; and her time is about up…

    And Trump blatantly admits he is a criminal….
    Or, he did until they started to investigate…. (Bragged about it, even; he can shoot well, you even, in front of everyone, and nobody will care!)

  • Chari McCauley

    still trying to justify the unjustifiable.

    This is what I believe happened to the ten (10) rules Father gave us. It took several books to justify not following 10 rules that work toward global peace and stability.
    The only thing Father’s Son (His own child) did was add empathy; and remove those “laws” that were ADDED to His Father’s instructions. An eye for an eye was not Father’s rule, because He KNOWS that does not work to change anyone toward peace and stability.

    And, His Son learned this truth, because He passed it onto us.

  • Chari McCauley

    So, being a child of mixed blood (viewed by many as sinful), but with darker skin would not present any confusions to that child?

    If it were you, and you lived amongst people who don’t judge your character, first; instead of things you were not given a choice to be born with, for instance white skin, who are now claiming persecution , BECAUSE they were BORN white through NO FAULT of their own??

    And, we STILL do not know how to judge anyone!!…by putting ourselves into their skin……

    Also, you can’t repent of any sin you are not willing to admit you are guilty of, that includes making judgement without all the facts. We don’t have that perspective; but, The Father does, and He pays attention.

  • David Cromie

    Tell that to those who can’t afford medical treatment, or the poor who are being denied so that the already rich can become richer still, and so on. For this we can blame politicians, i.e. the Great Orange Maggot, and his henchmen.

  • Best of Luck in all your endeavors….

  • You cannot conflate the two issues.
    Abortion is murder; war is hell…

  • You are simply repeating Liberal propaganda. You do not have a correct understanding of what is going on,,,,

  • Obamacare is still in effect; when it goes it will be replaced not eliminated.
    The only Great Orange Maggot I know is a Democrat.

  • Obscurely

    Thanks for making my point! 🙂

  • David Cromie

    Who cares what the book of legends, myths, and folklore (i.e. the contradiction prone, so-called ‘bible’), has to say about anything?

    All elections ‘divide the country’, especially the national variety (unless you are living in a one-party state).

  • David Cromie

    You mean the end your christer BS comes out of?

  • Chari McCauley

    Excuse me, it was recorded footage. Part of his campaign promises to those who admire such freedom to do what they please, and get away with it.

    And, for good measure,…use God, He’ll back you up!

  • Chari McCauley

    They are the same as far as stealing a life that belongs to Father.

    The thing HE sees that you don’t is that many of His daughters are getting a double dose of crap from sons who don’t even bother to get consent, but will leave a child not even a teenager, yet with a child.

    He sees, you don’t! YOU are NOT qualified to be the judge you have made yourself. But, you will be given the same attitude, upon your own day in court, that you display toward others.

  • I thought the comment was puerile but from a young person not an old fool.

  • Chari McCauley

    Our President is not responsible to feed and clothe the world as you see it. Neither is he responsible to provide free healthcare to all US citizens and illegal immigrants as you see it.

    Are you devoted to Father? And, His Son?

    Does Father expect us to be our brothers and sisters keeper? Does His Son expect us to have the same empathy for them that Father and certainly The Lord (putting Himself into our skin, and all) showed toward us?

  • LinCA

    Evangelicals, like no other group, are all in for the vile, criminal and treasonous piece of shit that is Trump. They are all in for a lying, adulterer, who just happens to advance the conservative Christian policies. They happily support a criminal who, by all accounts committed treason, and will gleefully fuck over everyone to make a buck for himself.

    Evangelicals, like no other group, accept the destruction of their own country and even the world, just to advance their own political agenda.

    These same evangelicals were also the most vocal opponents of the first black president.

    Evangelicals, the lot of them, are ignorant and racist hypocrites.

  • What recorder footage? What are you talking about? When Trump said he could shoot someone and get away with it?
    Be specific please.

  • They are not the same at all. You are a very confused person.
    Those who abandon their families are disgusting.
    I am very well qualified to call abortion murder because it is.
    How can you justify millions of unborn babies slaughtered because of their parents situation. Grow up and face reality.

  • Chari you are confusing charity and human empathy with running a government. They are completely different. Our taxes are not the President’s personal piggy bank to spend as Liberals dictate.

  • Chari McCauley

    And, The Lord spent time opposing government and the churches who consider themselves above others.

    Did the liberals send planes to bomb other people children?

    You mean trips to Camp David, all vacations written off as business, expensive parades, aircraft carriers with our name on it, that fluff our egos…that?

    Despite the fact that many Americans never get to take vacation, because they can’t take time off from working.

  • Chari McCauley

    How do we justify slaughtering anyone made by God?

    Are we saying we could do a better job of making people?

  • Chari McCauley

    Google it. All the networks have the footage of him saying he could stand in the middle of 5th avenue, shoot somebody and not lose votes. Jan 23, 2016

  • I did see that clip. What is your point now? It was campaign rhetoric for those of us who love him and red meat for those who don’t.

  • No. The Liberals and Obama were too busy watching the Yazidis get slaughtered.

    “Obama legacy includes Christian genocide”
    “First the Yazidis, an old religion loosely connected to Islam, were massacred, and women and children taken as slaves. Obama-Clinton watched. Only the Kurds took action to save the remaining Yazidis.help.”
    “Bill Clinton’s biggest regret as president is that he didn’t act sooner in Rwanda once the 1994 genocide began; 300,000 lives could have been saved.”
    “It had an enduring impact on me,” Clinton said in 2013.

    Saying President Trump does not work is ludicrous. As you are unaware he has already accomplished more in one year than any other President. If North Korea de-nukes he will get the Nobel Peace Prize legitimatley.

  • I do not–nor do I know of anyone who views a “child of mixed blood” as sinful. I am not speaking of race. I am do not care what race he is. I was merely stating that there are parts of his biography remains unknown. There seemed to be a disconnect between these different parts of Obama. . . . As I said, he was largely unknown before he entered Congress. . . Compare that to Trump for whom much–perhaps too much–was known about him. All of Trump’s weaknesses were known and exploited–a radically different departure from other candidates of both parties in the past, who tried to hide such weaknesses from the public

  • Do have evidence that this is not happening. . . the military budget has been increased. He so far has weathered the storm, as there is no impending impeachment occurring.. As to the economy, the unemployment numbers (which most use to define the status of the economy) are among the lowest in 40 years–mid 70s. . . Leadership on world stage. . well, he has moved the North Koreans to meet. That could change, but it is something. . . These are the most obvious. . . They seem impressive to me. So, why not

  • You have a lot of animus. If those quotes were the total of a person, I can see how you would negatively view him. But there are other things to look at. It is easy to pick out specific quotes and attributions and therefore state that they entail the wholeness of the person, but that is also biased, for you see what you want to see.
    The problem with looking at such statements is that they are similar to proof-texting–what some Christians do to look at Bible passages. Those people make mistakes by not looking at context, by not challenging the text to see a different message and so on. . .
    Many of these examples Trump has denied, or were taken out of context. I am not going down the “rabbit hole” of trying to debate the “rightness” of each comment. If that is what you believe, then so be it. I think that your mind is irrevocably made up.
    However there are few that I feel need to be commented on. Trump got deferments. So did a lot of people. Was there an issue with bone spurs? Maybe. I do not know. But, I do know that the military does have standards, and many people had disqualifications including flatfootedness, obesity, etc. . .We want our best to serve. I am glad your father did. But that does not mean that Trump is dishonorable for doing what many others did. He did not go to Canada, or burn draft cards. He has long been supportive of the military as are many who were unable to go. I see that as a cheap shot that has no relevance. . .
    Finally I do not hate America. I do not see him as a “5th rate criminal” whatever that means. . . As far as “deserving”. . I see the office of the president as honorable, not the men who have taken it. All presidents are weak and sinners. I do not place any of them on a higher moral plane. I respect the office, and those who voted for him. I do not think that the American people are fools. I think the better option was picked–flawed, but better. We should pray for him, not try to tear him down. . . Peace.

  • David Cromie

    “My premise is that God selects our leaders and we have to obey them – this is why our society is civilized”. Really? So a gun-worshipping society that cares not a jot for the poor and hungry (43 Million at the last account), but gives to the rich in tax cuts, and tolerates racism and misogyny, etc., is the measure of a civilized society?

  • David, our view of this great country differs widely. Gun-worshipping is not a sin – not even a fact.
    This country does not care for the poor and hungry. Really?
    We tolerate Racism and Misogyny? Who is the we in that statement.

  • Chari McCauley

    I do not–nor do I know of anyone who views a “child of mixed blood” as sinful. I suppose I should have been more specific, although, did you know that there are different degrees of white? Mixed blood with a “darker” race, here.

    Then, you live in a better community, with more knowledge and compassion than a lot of us that see, and hear, and know better.

    Feeling it would do you a world of good, too; builds character; whatever does not kill you makes you stronger, right?.

  • Chari McCauley

    Because, those who don’t…KNOW…more than ALL of us; bless your heart! ( Yes, that’s sarcasm) I agree with you; if ONLY it was JUST Trump.

  • Chari McCauley

    their inconsistency will negate

    You mean the double standards or what the guy they follow called (a forked tongue)…hipocrisy????

  • If you really believe that most religious people have a problem with mixed raced individuals, then I feel sorry for you. Even within the most conservative circles this is not the norm. I think that you have a stereotypical view of religious conservatives that may have at one time based on truth, but is not really any more. In many ways, I believe that liberals in the country are still fighting the 60s. The world has changed, . BTW that the not the reason that Obama was disliked among the conservative Whites On the other hand many blacks did not consider him Black enough. It was not an issue for the Whites. . . There may be pockets where this exists–the Alex Jones/David Duke camp–but their influence is much smaller than those on the left want to admit. . . In short most of us do not divide the world into race or class. That, is a leftist construct. I have little hope that you will agree with me. . .Oh well . . Peace

  • Everett Kier Jr

    Wow, what a ray of sunshine and muddled thinking

  • Chari McCauley

    Where are you from? Because I live in the thick of it.

    One benefit of being in the seen, but never heard group is that you can hear a person lie within two lines. You see and hear all kinds of things…

  • Chari McCauley

    This was my point. He didn’t lose your vote, did he?

    he can shoot well, you even, in front of everyone, and nobody will care!)

    However, I am quite certain that you have your skin color as a little insurance.

  • You cannot see the Racist element in you party but you cast aspersions on the President to “feel” good.
    Black and Hispanic employment is at an all time historic low – thank you Mr. President.
    What did Obama do for Chicago, Atlanta, Philadelphia and St Louis? Why were so many black people shot over drugs and no one lifted a finger? This is your party in action – all talk and feeling with no action.

    What you will see shortly after the release of the IG report is many of the well known names from the Obama administration referred for criminal prosecution. This will keep the Democrats on defense for quite a while and they won’t have time to infect this country with their bigoted and racist rhetoric.

  • Chari McCauley

    I belong to one party; my Father’s, Who Art in Heaven.
    He is neither blue or red, He is both. He doesn’t want His children to be blue or red; He wants them to get along; if for no other reason, but that we live in the same house.

  • An equally important question is “where do you live?”. I know you said, “in the thick of it”, but that is somewhat ambiguous. I am perhaps not who you think I am. You are probably not who I think you are, for we have never met, and thus have only the vaguest idea of each other. I am accused of being in the group that is heard. I wish that were so.
    Yes, I am white, and Christian. But I am also autistic, and as such has struggled to be “heard”. I am also from Appalachia, and though well educated am still perceived, by some, as a hillbilly or a hick. I currently live in Florida where I work at a mortuary.
    Now, I know that my brand of “not being heard” is different from those raised in contact with racism, sexism etc. That does not mean that I am “in the know”, or one of the successful folk. I do have to deal with the fact that I am different–that certain things I am unable to do, or do in the same way. People notice and react. Sometimes it is hard, for I feel that I am not understood, or seen as a real person, but rather someone who is autistic and “special”. . .
    I do not desire to make to much out of this, for I am not one to see myself as a victim. Just different.
    My point is that we are all striving and struggling. I remain optimistic. I sense that you are not. I see that, in place of a photo you are using the anarchist symbol as your avatar. That gives me a clue. I know there are problems–I am still a believer in this nation and its people. Peace. . .

  • I do not. I also don’t know anyone who knows her personally.
    The foundation is not what you think it is. It is under Federal investigation due to the nature of the contributions.

  • Brianna LaPoint

    Not all christians, unChristian, and never was a true christian are three things they should stop using. But gotta keep the fan base active, am i right?

  • Brianna LaPoint

    You dont live in america and i dont live in nigeria. therefore i have no idea why you are even commenting on american problems.

  • Brianna LaPoint

    Just because your perspective is different doesnt mean you are right.

  • LinCA

    What part is muddled?

    Do you dispute that evangelicals support Trump? Do you dispute that Trump is a criminal, committed treason, or is immoral? Do you dispute that evangelicals support Trump for any other reason than that he is implementing policies that are favored by them? Do you dispute that evangelicals support Trump because of his racist views and policies?

  • okmich

    Your assume is wrong because I don’t live in Nigeria.
    However point to note is that, you seem to ignore the truth shared because it doesn’t fit your narrative – the symptoms of the problem I shared above.

    Take care.

  • Everett Kier Jr

    Your passion is appreciated BUT the logic is weak. Trump a criminal….a stretch at best. Treason….no. Obviously more people than evangelicals supported Trump and I know ALL evangelicals did not support him. Since you seem to be arguing your position is the moral high ground I remind you the choice in the recent election was much more a choice between bad and worse not moral and immoral. The opposition was certainly no bastion of morality. And by the way your “racist views and policies” are beyond the pale if you are really committed to a reasonable discussion.

  • LinCA

    You may want to consider educating yourself before you post. You may look less like a gullible fool that way.

    Of course, more people than just evangelicals supported Trump. Evangelical support (white evangelicals) for Trump is pretty consistently above 75%, but he is also pretty popular among the ignorant, the gullible, the racist, the white supremacists and the fascists. Of course, these are not distinct groups, as there is significant overlap among all.

    Trump and his campaign actively worked with the Russians, and two other countries, to sway the election (the Trump Tower meetings were taken with the explicit intent on getting assistance with the election). He did this after he was informed the Russians were interfering in the election. While that may not fit the constitutional definition of treason, that is only because the cyber war that Russia was waging was undeclared, Trump’s actions certainly were a betrayal of his duty as an American. They were also criminal, as accepting any foreign help is a federal crime.

    If you fail to see how Trump is racist, and that failure is not because of ignorance, you may have an issue with racism yourself. If your failure is the result of ignorance, that can be cured. You could start here.

    If you actually believe that the election was between bad and worse, and your choice was Trump as the lesser evil of the two, I wonder who ties your shoes in the morning.

  • Everett Kier Jr

    Innuendo and opinion are hardly the fodder of healthy discussion and slur and character assassination doesn’t serve wise and constructive interaction. A reply like this is what frightens me and confirms the fundamentalist mentality invades every area of the human endeavor and validates by understanding that e only empirically verifiable truth of Orthodox Christian theology is the fallen nature of humanity.

  • LinCA

    Outright denial of reality is what makes a reasonable discussion impossible.

    The utter failure to see the fascist Trump regime for what it is, the failure to recognize the propaganda it spreads, the failure to see the gaslighting it does, and the condoning of its willful destruction of civil society is what makes evangelicals a big part of the problem.

    To call anything Christian “empirically verifiable” is absurd beyond words. Christianity is built on nothing but ignorant iron age folklore and superstition. Its gods are no more likely to be real than the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus. A belief in their existence is as infantile as believing in the Tooth Fairy. To be a Christian requires rejection of reality. It requires a belief in fairy tales.

  • Everett Kier Jr

    Now you make me laugh….hubris of this nature is sad but I can either cry or laugh…I chose laughter

  • LinCA

    Unfortunately, the destruction of civilized society at the hands of adults who still believe in fairy tales, is no laughing matter.

    You should look up the definition of “hubris”. Not believing there is an all powerful being that cares about me personally, isn’t it.

  • Kate Johnson

    Their hypocrisy reveals them for who they really are.

  • rika888

    Bob, I pray for you and all the misguided LOST evangelicals who have strayed so far from Jesus, they are not even Christians in my book. You are lost. You are following a thoroughly unGodly man and have bought into his lies in the name of self-preservation and personal gain. You need to search your soul and examine your underlying racist and hating heart. I rebuke and renounce you and Trump and all evangelicals who blindly support him the same way Jesus Rebuked Satan. Please read your Bible and pray for redemption.

  • Bungarra

    ‘Come the Reformation’ – to much to hope for? However in the absence of some major event, I would suggest that things look not so good. So many have followed ‘worldly power’ and forgotten that all are equal before God.

  • Bungarra

    I would strongly suggest that all humans in on this planet have the right to comment. Trump has access to the button and any major mistake with that will affect all of us and of our descendants if any survive. . I find the naive “American Only / First’ attitudes of some including one or two distant relatives of mine rather offensive and Racist.. This also generates an highly insular attitude which does not allow a good understanding of the rest of the World. Yes I do not live in the US, yet I have 6 generations of US maternal heritage. If I wished, would allow me too.

  • Bungarra

    Also who does not make his tax files public – has he obeyed the law?

  • Thanks but Your judgment may not be valid as to me or Evangelicals.
    In this country we do not “follow” our President; we elect him and not on his personal conduct but his campaign promises. We simply expect that our President will provide an example not a spectacle.
    Your rebuke is rejected because it is not based in correct judgment.
    Jesus did not come to establish the Government of God but to atone for our sins and re-establish our direct connection to God the Father. Which He did then. But He is coming back to do the former and sooner than many think.
    Your frustration is noted but misplaced; the other half of us had to bear with the Godless Obama and his satanic policies for eight years. Now you can understand what that must have been like.
    And as to your racist comment – grow up and quit using outrageous Liberal propaganda labels you do not even understand.

  • rika888

    I’m praying even harder, bob. Please please open your Bible and your heart. You are on a dangerous path of sin. “Christian ” Germans elected Hitler. See what that did.. Character counts. Evil exists and those who promote it aid EVIL.

  • LinCA

    There is no law that demands that candidates release their taxes. It’s just customary, so Trump did not break any laws by not releasing his taxes.

    He has (very likely) broken many laws with other actions. His crimes span the gamut. Among them are (again, likely, as he hasn’t been convicted of them (yet)), marital rape, sexual assault, racial discrimination, fraud, money laundering, bribery, wage theft, illegal immigration (for his employees), US sanctions violations, campaign finance violations, criminal conspiracy, soliciting campaign contributions from foreign nationals, computer fraud, lying to federal investigators, obstruction of justice, and treason.

  • Chari McCauley

    See, but WE chose to let humans govern. He’s just allowing us to see how that’s working out for us, because we keep rejecting ten simple instructions. We always find an excuse to kill; we always find a reason why we had to steal, lie, use other people. And, people always like to say that using His name in vain means swearing. No, it means He will call your bluff if you use HIm to hurt others.

  • Thanks for the prayers….

  • cgosling

    Who is to say whether Trump is serious about his religion or is using the religious claim to win the Evangelical vote? What do we know about Trump’s past behavior and beliefs? He constantly sinned and never repented or worshiped the Lord. Are Evangelicals so desperate for a human savior that they believe what this sinner says to them? By nature, Evangelicals are gullible believers not needing evidence for their beliefs.

  • Ian Carmichael

    I remember a remark of John Wimber’s many years ago (about 40). “We are not to judge, but we are called to be fruit inspectors!” I think that sums it up, and your article provides good detail and outworking of that.

  • David Coleman

    Supporting Trump, for any seemingly justifiable reason, has come at a high cost for Evangelicals, because the rest of society now views Evangelicals as hateful pariahs who would support a cruel and inhuman leader to advance their own agenda. Yes, Evangelicals are now viewed by people they probably want to “save” as wicked, irredeemable, hateful, and immoral sell-outs to a national disgrace, Trump. The loving Christ has no part in the Trump movement, and those who follow Christ need to make a choice: love and compassion or Trump. There is no middle ground, if you want to actually, ya know, live morally. Seriously – Evangelicals are now viewed by a huge portion of the population as some of the most hateful and wicked people on planet Earth. Some “witness.”

  • The rest of humanity does not agree on anything especially that all Evangelicals are pariahs.

    “Poll: white evangelical support for Trump is at an all-time high”
    “White evangelical support of Donald Trump is at an all-time high, according to a new study. The poll, conducted by the Public Religion Research Institute in March, found that a full 75 percent of white evangelicals surveyed had a positive opinion of Donald Trump, compared to just 22 percent holding an unfavorable view. Among white evangelical men, that number is even higher — 81 percent — while 71 percent of white evangelical women also view Trump favorably. The poll has been tracking Trump’s ratings since he first became a Republican primary candidate in March 2015.

    The loving great God of this universe put Trump into power.
    “Romans 13:1-7
    (1) Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.”

  • David Coleman

    Warmest greetings, Bob – I’m trying to explain, mostly for your own benefit, that you have been manipulated, brainwashed, and blinded by an evil man (Trump) whose words and behaviors fly against every teaching Jesus Christ ever taught. Trump is unworthy, unfit as a leader, and should not be given your deference. Trump does not deserve you. Jesus Christ does, who stands for love even in the face of hardship and death. Trump stands for everything BUT love, and corrals little children into inhuman conditions where they are dying. Open your eyes, and open your heart; Jesus Christ is to be worshipped, not Trump. Trump should be shamed for his behavior, and so should anyone who supports him after all this cruelty. It ]damages any credibility you have to claim morality when you continue to support this immoral, hapless leader. Understand: God is not behind Donald Trump– you are… But you don’t have to sacrifice that much. You shouldn’t have to sacrifice that much… You’re better.

  • Thanks David. You are making much more of my comments than is warranted. At the basic level I voted. My choices were the Great Criminal and Donald Trump. Besides everything else, Hillary loves money and she sold her access to government for contributions to her Global Initiative to the tune of $500 million. Donald Trump was already a billionaire and didn’t need more money. Hillary supported 3rd trimester abortion and open borders. The choice for me was simple. Jesus Christ, whom you claim stands for love, abhors abortion and does not change.Why as a Christian would I voted for an abortion supporter?

    As i pointed out, God is behind who leads us. It was God who chose Trump over Hillary. When you accuse the President of cruelty to children you who mindlessly parrot the latest Media campaign of deceit, deception and lies. Two years of uninterrupted vitriol against the current President because liberals are like children throwing a tantrum and cannot accept the election results. Remember along the way when Hillary demanded to know if Trump would accept the results? Apparently it is she who does not.

  • David Cromie

    Which, or what, supposed ‘god’ put Hitler, Pol Pot, or Stalin, for example, in positions of authority in their respective countries?

  • Why the very same God that you will see someday when you are resurrected and you mind is opened David. It’s not complicated. You can run and deny but you can’t hide.

  • David Cromie

    So your supposed ‘god’ is a murdering tyrant, revelling in the misery and blood of its mere human playthings.

    Without any irrefutable evidence that your supposed ‘god’ actually exists, all talk of its wants, attributes, or actions, is mere deluded BS. Why is it so complicated for believers to adduce the required evidence that their ‘god’ is not just a figment of their superstitious minds, and why do they keep running away from answering the question?

  • Because atheists cannot make a compelling case that God does not exist. Where is your evidence that He does not?
    God and desire for eternal life is set in man’s heart and cannot be talked away by words without substance.

  • David Cromie

    So you cannot answer my question. The onus is on those that make the claim to justify it. You might as well ask me to prove that faeries do not exist!

    It is logically impossible to prove a negative, but to claim to know that a statement is true, is to be able to prove it to be so.

  • The onus is hardly on those who believe in God. Who are you to demand such an answer? What is your standing to make that comment? Atheists have a right to believe what they want but not to demand others to prove their beliefs. If you have such a right where is it?

  • Philip Rand

    Hi David

    Your proposition: It is logically impossible to prove a negative

    I was wondering if you could prove that proposition using symbolic logic?

    I would not ask but for the fact that I can do it and I am interested to compare results.

    Since you made the claim then it is only fair that you go first.

    For it appears you are certain without any possibility of error that your proposition is true.

  • David Cromie

    So you think you have a right to immunity from criticism, and being asked to justify your declared beliefs, especially any claim that you have privileged access to ‘the truth’, or the ear of your supposed ‘god’. If this is so, why do you expose your world view to the public on the internet?

    These questions become even more pressing when christers attempt to have passed into law their system of bigotry and superstition, and to have such imposed on everyone, with penalties for non compliance (otherwise known as founding a ‘theocracy’).

  • No I don’t nor do I want that. No one has ask me to justify my beliefs. All have access to the God’s truth as it is in the bible; the most published book in the history of the world which also prophesied that “the gates of hell will not prevail against it.” Christianity has been exposed to the world for 2000 years. I am simply responding to the author of this blog and some of the respondents. All the laws in the history of the world have come from biblical principals one way or another. In the case of this country it was founded on “Judeo-Christian” principles by God fearing men who set up our government in accord with them. One that comes to mind is Freedom of Speech which allows people with different opinions to discuss them in public. Our government does not allow people with different opinions to shut down speech and ideas they don’t like as you continually advocate. This constitutional republic will not be silenced by Progressive thought anytime soon.

  • David Cromie

    “All the laws in the history of the world have come from biblical principals (sic) one way or another”. Are you for real?

  • Yes.
    Please give us one societal law that sprung from man.

  • David Cromie

    All supposed ‘gods’ throughout history were man made, as were all laws, and moral precepts, pertaining to the regulation of societies. Do you have any verifiable information to the contrary?

  • Except one.
    Yes. All Laws came from God and are recorded in the bible.
    Anything from a man has its roots in God’s Word at the basis.
    Again, “Please give us one societal law that sprung from man.”

  • rationalobservations?

    Your statement: “Because atheists cannot make a compelling case that God does not exist.” – appears most puzzling.
    Most atheists do NOT assert that God does not exist.
    There are millions of undetected and undetectable gods, goddesses and god-men among which the originally Canaanite god “Yahweh” and Roman’s god-man “Jesus” appear nothing special and there is no evidence of the existence of any of the millions of undetected and undetectable gods, goddesses and god-men among which the originally Canaanite god “Yahweh” and Roman’s god-man “Jesus” appear nothing special.

    It’s not that we pretend to know that your particular god does not exist.
    We observe there is no evidence of the existence of your god, or any other and simply do not pretend to know that any of the gods do exist.

    The belief that an imaginary god/god-man is real does not make it real.
    The belief that an imaginary god/god-man is real does not make it probably real.
    The belief that an imaginary god/god-man is real does not make it possibly real.
    Any personal and unsupported belief has no bearing upon the possibility that any god/god-man (among all the millions of very similar undetected and undetectable imaginary gods, goddesses and god-men) is “real” in any form but the imagination of an indoctrinated believer.

    Christians are often baffled how atheists could deny the existence of their originally Canaanite god, “Yahweh” and Roman god-man “Jesus”, but they really shouldn’t be. Christians deny thousands of the very same undetectable and undetected gods, goddesses and god-men that atheists deny. Atheists just deny one more god than Christians do (or is that three gods, maybe?).

    It’s not that we atheists are “anti” any of the many millions of gods and goddesses that have been invented by men to gain power and wealth for themselves down the ages. We simply do not believe in any and all of them. I wonder if any unreconstructed religionists are “anti” Zeus, Odin, Apollo, Quetzalcoatl, Pratibhanapratisamvit, (Buddhist goddess of context analysis), Acat, (Mayan god of tattoo artists). Or Tsa’qamae, north american god of salmon migration, or any of the millions of other undetectable and undetected totally imaginary deities among which the Judaeo/christian gods appear nothing special and about which there is nothing unique or original?

    Atheists and religionists are not so different, after all! Let us celebrate our vast agreement on the non-existence of millions of undetected and undetectable gods and other hypothetical and imaginary beings!
    https://monicksunleashed.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/99-percent-atheist.jpg
    https://freethoughtnaija.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/graveyard-of-the-gods.jpg

  • rationalobservations?

    Most atheists do NOT assert that God does not exist.
    There are millions of undetected and undetectable gods, goddesses and god-men among which the originally Canaanite god “Yahweh” and Roman’s god-man “Jesus” appear nothing special and there is no evidence of the existence of any of the millions of undetected and undetectable gods, goddesses and god-men among which the originally Canaanite god “Yahweh” and Roman’s god-man “Jesus” appear nothing special.

    It’s not that we pretend to know that your particular god does not exist.
    We observe there is no evidence of the existence of your god, or any other and simply do not pretend to know that any of the gods do exist.

    The belief that an imaginary god/god-man is real does not make it real.
    The belief that an imaginary god/god-man is real does not make it probably real.
    The belief that an imaginary god/god-man is real does not make it possibly real.
    Any personal and unsupported belief has no bearing upon the possibility that any god/god-man (among all the millions of very similar undetected and undetectable imaginary gods, goddesses and god-men) is “real” in any form but the imagination of an indoctrinated believer.

    Christians are often baffled how atheists could deny the existence of their originally Canaanite god, “Yahweh” and Roman god-man “Jesus”, but they really shouldn’t be. Christians deny thousands of the very same undetectable and undetected gods, goddesses and god-men that atheists deny. Atheists just deny one more god than Christians do (or is that three gods, maybe?).

    It’s not that we atheists are “anti” any of the many millions of gods and goddesses that have been invented by men to gain power and wealth for themselves down the ages. We simply do not believe in any and all of them. I wonder if any unreconstructed religionists are “anti” Zeus, Odin, Apollo, Quetzalcoatl, Pratibhanapratisamvit, (Buddhist goddess of context analysis), Acat, (Mayan god of tattoo artists). Or Tsa’qamae, north american god of salmon migration, or any of the millions of other undetectable and undetected totally imaginary deities among which the Judaeo/christian gods appear nothing special and about which there is nothing unique or original?

    Atheists and religionists are not so different, after all! Let us celebrate our vast agreement on the non-existence of millions of undetected and undetectable gods and other hypothetical and imaginary beings!

    https://monicksunleashed.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/99-percent-atheist.jpg

  • rationalobservations?

    You appear to have summed up one major reason that the third largest and fastest growing “religious” human demographic are the godless, non-religious.
    No evidence = no reason to believe in any of the millions of undetected and undetectable gods, goddesses and god-men.

    Facts require empirical evidence to make them facts.
    Religious beliefs are based upon no evidence whatsoever.

    The belief that an imaginary god/god-man is real does not make it real.
    The belief that an imaginary god/god-man is real does not make it probably real.
    The belief that an imaginary god/god-man is real does not make it possibly real.
    Any personal and unsupported belief has no bearing upon the possibility that any god/god-man (among all the millions of very similar undetected and undetectable imaginary gods, goddesses and god-men) is “real” in any form but the imagination of an indoctrinated believer.

  • Philip Rand

    Atheists and religionists are not so different, after all!
    Yes. Both agree that it will soon be 2019 years after Christ’s birth around the entire world.

    That is what is called a rational observation.

  • rationalobservations?

    The year will be 2019 CE.
    What became known as the 1st century only became known as such at what at the sametime became known as the 8th century CE.

    There is no historical evidence of the existence or of the mythical exploits of “Jesus”.

  • Philip Rand

    That is not a reasonable observation of the world. In 1988 the dating system using Christ’s birth as a gauge for world history was officially made an international standard fulfilling the prediction made in Genesis 1:14.

  • rationalobservations?

    That is false as the only historical Messiah/Christ was named Simon Ben Kochba and he was born in what we call the early 2nd century CE.
    There is no historical evidence of a Messiah claimant named “Jesus”.

  • Philip Rand

    That is false as the only historical Messiah/Christ was named Simon Ben Kochba and he was born in what we call the early 2nd century CE.

    What gauge are you using to date Simon Ben Kochba?

    Observing the rational observation of your dating system proves Genesis 1:14 which is proven by ISO 8601 which proves that the dating gauge for the world is based on the Birth of Christ.

    This dating gauge is independent of the choice of units which is what is expected of a constant.

    For example, what year was the second Temple destroyed, what year did Alexander the Great die, what year did Israel become a state?

  • Well, that could be the reason but it’s not. Facts are for physical phenomena. But in today’s world facts are subject to manipulation; global warming. Religion requires faith in things not seen; some get it some don’t.

  • Are you recruiting? I don’t buy it. Most Christians worry about other religions more than they even think about atheism.

  • David Cromie

    On the question of biblical laws, see; ‘Inventing God’s Law – How the Covenant Code of the Bible Used and Revised the Laws of Hammurabi’, by D P Wright, 2009, OUP.

    You might also like to read the Pagan Akkadian narrative of the ‘Epic of Gilgamesh’ (dated from around 2,000 years before the OT) to see where the Genesis myths, in particular, came from.

  • The epic of Gilgamesh and folklore from many countries around the world remembers the Flood of Noah. Some say there was no flood or it wasn’t universal but these accounts belie that assertion. The OT begins with Genesis from the beginning of time before man was even created. There is nothing before it. The OT isn’t dated from the time of Moses.

    Hammurabi was a contemporary of Abraham. His laws were hardly original. That is just to pacify non-believers. Man started again from Noah and his family after the flood. They had all God’s laws available to them. As man spread again around the world God’s laws went with them. DP Wright is wrong in his conclusion 6000 years after the fact.

  • rationalobservations?

    Your bunkum remains unsupported and therefore debunked.
    You fail to present evidence that the BCE / CE calendar has been accepted as having an apparently fictional character as its basis among anyone but a (rapidly declining across the developed world) number of christians.
    The third largest and fastest growing human demographic of the godless don’t believe in a man named “Jesus” or a god named “Yahweh” and do not attribute the Common Era calendar to any fictional god-man as used by the majority of the human population who are non-christian and/or non-believers in all religious mythology.

    There is no mention of “Jesus” or the common era calendar within either of the two ridiculous creation myths within any of the diverse and different versions of bibles.

    There is no biblical authority for BC/AD; it was created over 500 years after the events described in the Christian “New Testaments” and was not accepted usage until after another 500 years had passed. The use of BCE/CE certainly has become more common and universal in recent years but it is not a new invention of the “politically correct” nor is it even all that new; the use of “common era” in place of A.D. first appears in German in the 17th century CE and in English in the 18th. The use of this designation in dating has nothing to do with “removing one of many “Christ/messiah” claimants from the calendar” and everything to do with accuracy when dealing with historical events.

    Your ridiculous bunkum remains debunked.

  • Philip Rand

    ISO 8601 ask the UN for confirmation.

  • rationalobservations?

    I am puzzled upon what authority (or data) you claim and presume to speak for “most” of the rapidly declining rump of those who remain enslaved to the 4th century founded Roman cult of “christianity”?

    Your inability to answer or address any part of the logic and evidence that confounds religionists is once again noted and your attempt to divert attention from your humiliation once again fails, son.

    You may not “worry” about the third largest and fastest growing human demographic of the godless – but I am concerned for all those who remain in ignorance and delusion and waste the only life they have on superstitious garbage. It’s the humanitarian thing to do.

    Remember:
    Religious beliefs are based only upon indoctrination and upon no historical evidence whatsoever.

    The belief that an imaginary god/god-man is real does not make it real.
    The belief that an imaginary god/god-man is real does not make it probably real.
    The belief that an imaginary god/god-man is real does not make it possibly real.
    Any personal and unsupported belief has no bearing upon the possibility that any god/god-man (among all the millions of very similar undetected and undetectable imaginary gods, goddesses and god-men) is “real” in any form but the imagination of an indoctrinated believer.

    The truth is out here. You only need to open your mind and look for it…

  • rationalobservations?

    There is no mention of any fictional god-man within the content and description of ISO 8601 or the two different creation myths known as Gen 1 and GEN 2.

    Your garbage bunkum remains debunked son.

  • rationalobservations?
  • rationalobservations?

    “All have access to the God’s truth as it is in the bible..”

    The most obvious question from any bible scholar must be which bible?
    Do you reference one of the oldest/first prototype bibles written by small teams of men in the 4th century, or one of the very significantly different versions authored by other later teams of men?

    The world renowned bible scholar Bart Ehrman was himself a “born again” Bible-believing Evangelical christian until he read the original 4th century originated Greek bible texts and noticed many thousands of discrepancies between the 4th century prototypes and between them and the bibles cobbled together since the 4th century..

    Bart Ehrman is recognised as a world leading bible scholar but he still claims to believe that an entirely human and mortal man named “Jesus” once existed although he joins the rest of us in being unable to accept fables of magic and miracles or – most importantly – discover any authentic and original, 1st century originated historical evidence of (or reference to) the existence of “Jesus”.

    Bart writes: “The Bible we now use can’t be the inerrant word of God since what we have are the merely mistaken words copied by fallible scribes from doubtful sources that were fabricated centuries after the time in which the legends of “Jesus” are set. When people ask me if the Bible is the word of God I answer ‘which Bible?'”

    The Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus – and other early manuscripts – omit mentions of ascension of Jesus into heaven, and key references to the Resurrection, which the Archbishop of Canterbury has said “..is essential for Christian belief”.

    Facts require empirical evidence to make them facts.
    Religious beliefs are based only upon indoctrination and upon no historical evidence whatsoever.

    The belief that an imaginary god/god-man is real does not make it real.
    The belief that an imaginary god/god-man is real does not make it probably real.
    The belief that an imaginary god/god-man is real does not make it possibly real.
    Any personal and unsupported belief has no bearing upon the possibility that any god/god-man (among all the millions of very similar undetected and undetectable imaginary gods, goddesses and god-men) is “real” in any form but the imagination of an indoctrinated believer.

    https://religionpoisons.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/480034_342051569209203_1479475788_n.jpg?w=640&h=427

  • rationalobservations?

    You repeat mere propaganda.
    Unless you have evidence of the existence of any of the millions of human invented, undetected and undetectable gods, goddesses and god-men – your reference to any of them is merely recycled propaganda.

    All gods and all laws are the product of humans.

    Most of the arcane and evil laws of the ancients that they attributed to their gods have been overturned in our godless and more peaceful and egalitarian secular age of reason.

    If you actually attempt to follow or enact most of the murderous and anti-humanitarian “laws” of bibles – you will rapidly be detained and punished under more civilised secular laws.

    Religion poisons everything but fortunately education and free, secular democracy is proving to be the antidote to that vile poison.

    How do you feel about compliance with this “law”?

    “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.” Deuteronomy 21:18-21

  • You quoted “Bart Ehrman …unable to … discover any authentic and original, 1st century originated historical evidence of (or reference to) the existence of “Jesus”.

    But if I tell you that “Josephus’ Antiquities of the Jews, written around 93–94 AD, includes two references to the biblical Jesus Christ in Books 18 and 20 and a reference to John the Baptist in Book 18” you will immediately try to discount that reference.

    What exactly makes Mr. Ehrman a world renowned bible scholar? He doesn’t believe in the inerancy of the bible or that Jesus was God.

  • You confuse Israel’s laws of governance and the Laws of God for man’s conduct. They are nt the same. As to poison that is Progressive Liberalism.

  • Philip Rand

    Nope. Nothing here -> ¬¬here
    ¬¬here -> here
    You are contradicting yourself.

    You are self-deceiving.

    You are in fact agreeing with my comment concerning ISO 8601. It is an NP-complete problem:

    Genesis 1:14 -> Dionysius Exigius -> Greenwich England -> ISO8601 -> 2019 years after the birth of Christ

    And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to distinguish between the day and the night, and to mark the seasons and days and YEARS.

    God means Christ.

    So, Genesis 1:14 predicted this would occur. And it has.

    So, it would appear that, yup…. you take contradicting yourself very seriously… good for you!!!!!

    Test question: What year is the gauge for all computers?

  • rationalobservations?

    There is no 1st century text written by Josephus. The oldest text ATTRIBUTED to Josephus was written by a Christian forger centuries after Josephus died.
    I don’t need to “try” to discount the Josephus fraud of the TF as it has been recognised for hundreds of years by scholars and is only still referenced by ignorant and gullible Jesus cult members.

    Being a scholar of many of the diverse and different, confused and internally contradictory, historically inaccurate, historically unsupportable and scientifically absurd bibles is what caused Ehrman (and many others) to recognise the fraudulent nonsense of Christianity and all similarly fraudulent and dishonest religious cults and sects.

    Please check the authenticity of any lies and propaganda before you recycle those lies in future.

  • rationalobservations?

    It is you who appears to confuse the laws invented by men for laws of gods and goddesses that were and are also invented by men.

    If by “Progressive Liberalism” you reference communism and communism lite socialism – that is as bad as the similar totalitarianism of tyrannical religions like the “Jesus” cults and Islam and the fascism of the far right.

    Fortunately the antidote to all those blights upon humanity is proving to be education and free, secular democracy.

  • rationalobservations?

    Your biggest problem is the total, absolute and complete absence of evidence of the existence of a man named “Jesus” and your confusion between that apparently fictional mortal and the “messiah” as predicted in Jewish mythology.
    Only one human man is recorded as being hailed as “the messiah” in Rabbinical circles and he is recorded in history and in artifacts including coins struck by the Northern Judea council.
    His name was Simon ben Kochbah, aka Simon bar Kokhba or Simon ben Kosevah.

    According to the OT prophesies and NT legends – “Jesus” could not be the “messiah” even if there was some shred of evidence of his existence:

    The word “Messiah” is an English rendering of the Hebrew word Mashiach, which means “anointed.” It usually refers to a person initiated into God’s service by being anointed with oil. (Exodus 29:7, 1-Kings 1:39, 2-Kings 9:3)

    (1) Jesus Did Not Fulfill the Messianic Prophecies
    What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? One of the central themes of biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4, 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)

    Specifically, the Bible says he will:

    Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
    Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
    Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: “Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore.” (Isaiah 2:4)
    Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: “God will be King over all the world – on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One” (Zechariah 14:9).
    If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be the Messiah.

    Because no one has ever fulfilled the Bible’s description of this future King, Jews still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.

    Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming. Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright; in the Bible no concept of a second coming exists.

    (2) Jesus Did Not Embody the Personal Qualifications of Messiah
    A. Messiah as Prophet
    The Messiah will become the greatest prophet in history, second only to Moses. (Targum – Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides – Teshuva 9:2)

    Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BCE. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews remained in Babylon, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets – Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

    Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended, and thus could not be a prophet.

    B. Descendant of David
    Many prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. (Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5)

    The Messiah must be descended on his father’s side from King David (see Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father – and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father’s side from King David. (1)

    According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, (2) nor will he possess supernatural qualities.

    C. Torah Observance
    The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

    Throughout the Christian “New Testament,” Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), “He does not observe Shabbat!”

    (3) Mistranslated Verses “Referring” to Jesus
    Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text – which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

    A. Virgin Birth
    The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an “alma” as giving birth. The word “alma” has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as “virgin.” This accords Jesus’ birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

    B. Suffering Servant
    Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the “suffering servant.”

    In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews (“Israel”) are regarded as one unit. Throughout Jewish scripture, Israel is repeatedly called, in the singular, the “Servant of God” (see Isaiah 43:8). In fact, Isaiah states no less than 11 times in the chapters prior to 53 that the Servant of God is Israel.

    When read correctly, Isaiah 53 clearly [and ironically] refers to the Jewish people being “bruised, crushed and as sheep brought to slaughter” at the hands of the nations of the world. These descriptions are used throughout Jewish scripture to graphically describe the suffering of the Jewish people (see Psalm 44).

    Isaiah 53 concludes that when the Jewish people are redeemed, the nations will recognize and accept responsibility for the inordinate suffering and death of the Jews.

    “What year is the gauge for all computers?
    Year 0001 CE.
    (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epoch_(reference_date) )

    Your bunkum remains debunked.

  • Philip Rand

    Simon ben Kochbah could not have been the Messiah because at the time the Jews no longer had the power of capital punishment and the Temple did not exist.

    Chapter 9 of Josephus’ book, Antiquities of the Jews Book XX, details the death of James where he states that James is the brother of Jesus as well as stating that the Jews had lost the ability to command capital punishment.

  • rationalobservations?

    I agree that Simon “christ” could not have been the “messiah” since no such being ever existed. He is the only historically recognised “Messiah” however briefly that recognition lasted before he and his messianic cult following were captured and massacred by the Romans. The point is that Simon is the only “Messiah” of whom historical evidence exists. There is no historical trace of “Yeshua/Jesus”.

    Why do you reference texts written by an anonymous christian author that were forged in the 6th century and are merely ATTRIBUTED to Josephus who was centuries dead when those texts were forged?

    When addressing the mythical nature of Jesus Christ, one issue repeatedly raised is the purported “evidence” of his existence to be found in the writings of Flavius Josephus, the famed Jewish general and historian who lived from about 37 to 100 CE. In Josephus’s Antiquities of the Jews appears the notorious passage regarding Christ called the “Testimonium Flavianum” (“TF”):

    “Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works,–a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.” (Whitson, 379)

    This surprisingly brief and simplistic passage constitutes the “best proof” of Jesus’s existence in the entire ancient non-Christian library comprising the works of dozens of historians, writers, philosophers, politicians and others who never mentioned the great sage and wonderworker Jesus Christ, even though they lived contemporaneously with or shortly after the Christian savior’s purported advent.

    Despite the best wishes of sincere believers and the erroneous claims of truculent apologists, the Testimonium Flavianum has been demonstrated continually over the centuries to be a forgery, likely interpolated by Catholic Church historian Eusebius in the fourth century. So thorough and universal has been this debunking that very few scholars of repute continued to cite the passage after the turn of the 19th century. Indeed, the TF was rarely mentioned, except to note that it was a forgery, and numerous books by a variety of authorities over a period of 200 or so years basically took it for granted that the Testimonium Flavianum in its entirety was spurious, an interpolation and a forgery. As Dr. Gordon Stein relates:

    “…the vast majority of scholars since the early 1800s have said that this quotation is not by Josephus, but rather is a later Christian insertion in his works. In other words, it is a forgery, rejected by scholars.”

    So well understood was this fact of forgery that these numerous authorities did not spend their precious time and space rehashing the arguments against the TF’s authenticity. Nevertheless, in the past few decades apologists of questionable integrity and credibility have glommed onto the TF, because this short and dubious passage represents the most “concrete” secular, non-biblical reference to a man who purportedly shook up the world. In spite of the past debunking, the debate is currently confined to those who think the TF was original to Josephus but was Christianized, and those who credulously and self-servingly accept it as “genuine” in its entirety.

    To repeat, this passage was so completely dissected by scholars of high repute and standing–the majority of them pious Christians–that it was for decades understood by subsequent scholars as having been proved in toto a forgery, such that these succeeding scholars did not even mention it, unless to acknowledge it as false. (In addition to being repetitious, numerous quotes will be presented here, because a strong show of rational consensus is desperately needed when it comes to matters of blind, unscientific and irrational faith.) The scholars who so conclusively proved the TF a forgery made their mark at the end of the 18th century and into the 20th, when a sudden reversal was implemented, with popular opinion hemming and hawing its way back first to the “partial interpolation theory” and in recent times, among the third-rate apologists, to the notion that the whole TF is “genuine.” As Earl Doherty says, in “Josephus Unbound”:

    “Now, it is a curious fact that older generations of scholars had no trouble dismissing this entire passage as a Christian construction. Charles Guignebert, for example, in his Jesus (1956, p.17), calls it ‘a pure Christian forgery.’ Before him, Lardner, Harnack and Schurer, along with others, declared it entirely spurious. Today, most serious scholars have decided the passage is a mix: original parts rubbing shoulders with later Christian additions.”

    The earlier scholarship that proved the entire TF to be fraudulent was determined by intense scrutiny by some of the most erudite, and mainly Christian, writers of the time, in a number of countries, their works written in a variety of languages, but particularly German, French and English. Their general conclusions, as elucidated by Christian authority Dr. Lardner, and related here by the author of Christian Mythology Unveiled (c. 1842), include the following reasons for doubting the authenticity of the TF as a whole:

    “Mattathias, the father of Josephus, must have been a witness to the miracles which are said to have been performed by Jesus, and Josephus was born within two years after the crucifixion, yet in all the works he says nothing whatever about the life or death of Jesus Christ; as for the interpolated passage it is now universally acknowledged to be a forgery. The arguments of the ‘Christian Ajax,’ even Lardner himself, against it are these: ‘It was never quoted by any of our Christian ancestors before Eusebius. It disturbs the narrative. The language is quite Christian. It is not quoted by Chrysostom, though he often refers to Josephus, and could not have omitted quoting it had it been then in the text. It is not quoted by Photius [9th century], though he has three articles concerning Josephus; and this author expressly states that this historian has not taken the least notice of Christ. Neither Justin Martyr, in his dialogue with Trypho the Jew; nor Clemens Alexandrinus, who made so many extracts from ancient authors; nor Origen against Celsus, have ever mentioned this testimony. But, on the contrary, in chap. 25th of the first book of that work, Origen openly affirms that Josephus, who had mentioned John the Baptist, did not acknowledge Christ. That this passage is a false fabrication is admitted by Ittigius, Blondel, Le Clerc, Vandale, Bishop Warburton, and Tanaquil Faber.'” (CMU, 47)

    Hence, by the 1840’s, when the anonymous author of Christian Mythology Unveiled wrote, the Testimonium Flavanium was already “universally acknowledged to be a forgery.”

    Ref: http://www.truthbeknown.com/josephus.htm

  • Philip Rand

    Fine with me.

    Let’s concentrate on the solid evidence then, i.e. the dating methodology of the world and it’s reference to Christ as the gauge.

    Genesis 1:14 is a prediction made thousands of years before the gauge was adopted and thus confirmed.

  • rationalobservations?

    Repeating this garbage fails to validate, justify or excuse it.

    No trace of any historical “Jesus”.
    A declining number of morons still considering BC/AD dating valid.
    No reference to “Jesus” in Gen 1 or GEN 2.
    No reference to “Jesus” within any recognised dating schedule.

    Your bunkum remains debunked and your humiliation must surely be embarrassing even a moron like you?

  • Philip Rand

    I told you… the gauge is independent of units, i.e. B.C., BCE, AD, CE, etc. that is what makes it a constant.

    As stated, the logical problem is an NP-complete problem with an additional bilking-argument. It is quite rational to an observer.

    Your arguments against the thesis have simply added evidence for the bilking argument & NP-complete problem.

    Nothing you have stated has touched the thesis. You have simply unwittingly added to the evidence.

    Is that your problem?

    Dating is based on Greenwich, England… and last I checked, in Greenwich, England it is the year 2019… also, in all of Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia, North America, South America, and Antarctica…

  • rationalobservations?

    Why do you continue with this agreement with some more obvious facts while claiming nonsense about a fictional character named “Jesus”?

    Happy 2019 CE.

  • David Cromie

    I should have said that the Laws of Hammurabi have had their origins dated to around 1000 BCE, not 6000 (some academics claim they date to the 2nd millennium BCE). Mesopotamia was in control of Israel and Judah between 740 and 640 BCE (the Neo-Assyrian period) and this is the period when they were most likely absorbed into Israeli law (an ‘academic abstraction’, as Wright puts it).

    The ‘floods’ you refer to were considered by ignorant people to be worldwide/as far as the eye could see, if they indeed were so thought of, because these superstitious people had no idea just how big the earth really was, or that it was not flat. If we also look at the various ‘flood’ stories, they most probably occurred over flood plains, then there must have been several over time, especially after heavy rain, and some were probably cyclical, such as the flooding of the Nile. None of the clay tablets attest to the fact that everyone was drowned (had they been, who would have recorded the floods?).

    When may we expect your book, in which you thoroughly debunk D P Wright?

  • Philip Rand

    Another contradiction.

  • rationalobservations?

    Yet another obfuscation. Why do you bother?

  • First, I don’t need to debunk Wright; his thesis is a non-starter.
    The eight after the flood populated the world a second time. They gave first hand testimony of the flood and unlike your world renown bible scholars they actually had knowledge of God and passed it on. Pity you try to discount what is right before your eyes.

  • Philip Rand

    2019 C(Christian)E(Era)

    Christ’s Existence, Christ’s Body, Divinity, & Bible validated with your single parting comment: Happy 2019 CE

    … knew we would get there eventually…

  • rationalobservations?

    Your ignorance is only exceeded by your unwarranted infantile arrogance.
    CE = Common Era.

  • Philip Rand

    CE = Common Era.

    That comment (what I was waiting for)… only proves the thesis still further.

    Common Era is based on the Christian Era gauge… as I told you the dating issue is an NP-complete problem and is independent of units (this is what makes it a constant). But, here the issue even gets deeper and really technically sweet… proving that the Bible is an integrated message system linking both the Old & New Testaments.

    You are frustrated because you cannot prove the dating thesis is false, i.e. Genesis 1:14 being incorrect… this you cannot demonstrate.

    The reason you can’t is because it is true, i.e. Christ is Truth.

  • rationalobservations?

    You have yet to present authentic and original, 1st century originated historical evidence of the existence of a mortal and entirely human man named “Jesus”. Don’t feel too humiliated though as no one (NO ONE!) ever has.

    Your fatuous and ridiculous claims remain without a single shred of evidence or substantiation and the calendar system devised in the 6th century and enforced in the 8th century remains commonly known as the “Common Era” dating system.

    I remain puzzled why you continue to confuse the issue of the non-existence of the man “Jesus” with the only recorded “messiah/christ” who was named “Simon” and died at the end of the first third of the second century CE?

    Your fantasies are your business. Don’t expect the rest of us to ignore the facts and buy into your fantasies.

    Your bunkum remains debunked.

  • Philip Rand

    ISO 8601 is based on a single gauge that can represent the common ideal value of all other gauges. This single gauge is the Birth of Christ. FACT.

    YOU CANNOT PROVE IT FALSE.

    The rest of your exposition is dealt with succinctly with this single issue and is therefore simply false accusations. This is the reason I need not address any of your accusations.

    The correct prediction made in Genesis 1:14 proves the Bible; therefore the Bible is true. Simple, is it not?

  • rationalobservations?

    There is no single item of historical evidence that “Jesus” existed – fact.
    If you consider the common era dating system to be based upon the supposed date of the birth of a “messiah/christos/crestus/christ”. The year 2019 that has just been accepted by the two thirds of the world that are in thrall to any of the existing dishonest and fraudulent religious cults and sects (that includes the fraudulent cults of “Jesus”) and the third largest and fastest growing human cohort of the godless/non-religious – is wrong and around 10 decades too early.

    You cannot prove the existence of “Jesus”. No one ever has or ever can.

    Any of the contradictory content of GEN 1 and GEN 2 is scientifically absurd garbage and proves only how ignorant and primitive some folk were in the long distant past and some remain today.

    The majority of the population of the world today are NOT members of any “Jesus” based cult or sect and your repetitive garbage is an offence to truth, logic, evidence, common sense, historical accuracy and the majority who recognise all cults of christianity as fraudulent nonsense.

    There is no biblical authority for BC/AD; it was created over 500 years after the events described in the Christian New Testament and was not accepted usage until after another 500 years had passed. The use of BCE/CE certainly has become more common in recent years but it is not a new invention of the “politically correct” nor is it even all that new; the use of “common era” in place of A.D. first appears in German in the 17th century CE and in English in the 18th. The use of this designation in dating has nothing to do with “removing Christ from the calendar” and everything to do with accuracy when dealing with historical events.

    The Hebrew calendar, still in use, is based on a concept known as Anno Mundi (“in the year of the world”) which dates events from the beginning of the creation of the earth as calculated through scripture. Ancient civilizations such as Mesopotamia and Egypt based their calendars on the reigns of kings or the cycles of the seasons as set by the gods. In Mesopotamia, for example, one might date an event as “five years from the reign of King Shulgi” and, in Egypt, as “three years after the last Opet Festival of Ramesses who was the second of that name” or, otherwise, “In the 10th year of the reign of Ramesses who triumphed at Kadesh”. This method of dating was continued by the Romans who counted their years according to three different systems in different eras: from the founding of Rome, by which consuls were in power, and by which emperors ruled at a given time.

    Julius Caesar (100-44 BCE) reformed the calendar and renamed the months during his reign (49-44 BCE). This calendar remained in use, with periodic revisions, until 1582 CE when Pope Gregory XIII instituted the Gregorian Calendar still in use in the present day. Christians used the Anno Mundi calendar and the Roman calendar in the early years of the faith. In c. 525 CE, however, a new concept in dating was introduced by a monk named Dionysius Exiguus (c. 470-544 CE) which provided the groundwork for the later dating system of BC/AD.

    Dionysius invented the concept of Anno Domini (“in the year of our Lord”) in an attempt to stabilize the date of the celebration of Easter. At the time he was working on this problem, Christians of the influential church of Alexandria were dating events from the beginning of the reign of the Roman emperor Diocletian (284 CE) who persecuted members of the new faith. Dionysius was seeking to bring the eastern and western churches into agreement on a single day on which all Christians would celebrate Easter.

    Your myths are busted and your bunkum remains debunked.

  • Philip Rand

    Here is a summary of your post:

    1/ There is no biblical authority for BC/AD; it was created over 500 years after the events described in the Christian New Testament and was not accepted usage until after another 500 years had passed.

    2/ The Hebrew calendar, still in use, is based on a concept known as Anno Mundi which dates events from the beginning of the creation of the earth as calculated through scripture.

    3/ In Mesopotamia, for example, one might date an event as five years from the reign of King Shulgi and, in Egypt, as three years after the last Opet Festival of Ramesses who was the second of that name or, otherwise, In the 10th year of the reign of Ramesses who triumphed at Kadesh .

    4/ Christians used the Anno Mundi calendar and the Roman calendar in the early years of the faith.

    5/ At the time he was working on this problem, Christians of the influential church of Alexandria were dating events from the beginning of the reign of the Roman emperor Diocletian who persecuted members of the new faith.

    YOUR COMMENT IS LOST-IN-THE-WOODS.

  • rationalobservations?

    Oh dear, pal.
    Your condition of ignorant, stubborn denial is once again noted.
    Your garbage remains unsupported and your bunkum remains debunked.light

    I am grateful to you for your persistent exposure of your garbage as it provides a platform to educate and inform readers who are not as far gone into the twilight zone as you continually demonstrate yourself to be.

    Please, PLEASE continue with your nonsense and debunked bunkum. It may be amusing other readers as well as me.

    There is no historical trace of a messianic claimant named “Yeshua/Jesus”.
    The oldest, 4th century founded institution and business of christianity recognises that all bibles and tangible artifacts of Christianity cannot be traced back to origination earlier than the 4th century:

    “Our documentary sources of knowledge about the origins of Christianity and its earliest development are chiefly the New Testament Scriptures, the authenticity of which we must, to a great extent, take for granted.”
    (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. iii, p. 712)

    The Church makes extraordinary admissions about its New Testament. For example, when discussing the origin of those writings,

    “the most distinguished body of academic opinion ever assembled” (Catholic Encyclopedias, Preface) admits that the Gospels “do not go back to the first century of the Christian era”
    (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vi, p. 137, pp. 655-6).

    This statement conflicts with priesthood assertions that the earliest Gospels were progressively written during the decades following the death of the Gospel Jesus Christ.

    In a remarkable aside, the Church further admits that,

    “the earliest of the extant manuscripts [of the New Testament], it is true, do not date back beyond the middle of the fourth century AD”
    (Catholic Encyclopedia, op. cit., pp. 656-7).

    Why do you believe in a character of which only confused and contradictory legends and propaganda exists? Propaganda that was first written centuries after the time in which those legends are set?

    Remember:
    Religious beliefs are based only upon indoctrination and are supported by no historical evidence whatsoever.

    The belief that an imaginary god/god-man is real does not make it real.
    The belief that an imaginary god/god-man is real does not make it probably real.
    The belief that an imaginary god/god-man is real does not make it possibly real.
    Any personal and unsupported belief has no bearing upon the possibility that any god/god-man (among all the millions of very similar undetected and undetectable imaginary gods, goddesses and god-men) is “real” in any form but the imagination of an indoctrinated believer.

    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-SLVOq77YxcI/WdD49ptS1SI/AAAAAAAAlOs/FqEnF3E72zoc4HIK4i_jqfQAVYLOGvclACJoC/w1435-h1221/20171001_101457.png
    http://www.godofevolution.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Nye-vs-Ham-cartoon-evidence.jpg

  • Philip Rand

    Another contradiction.

  • rationalobservations?

    Present evidence of the existence of any Messiah claimant named “Jesus” and we can talk about the historical origins NB of the Common Era calendar system we use since its 8th century imposition.

  • Philip Rand

    So, Christ is the calendar system. You are incorrect concerning the 8th century; its first use was in 527 by Dionysius Exigius. This system was standardised in 1988 to be the international gauge for dating.

  • David Cromie

    It is difficult to ‘have knowledge’ of a supposed ‘god’ when all we have is a claim that it exists, according to a book of myths, legends, and folklore. This constitutes the fallacy of the circular argument.

    Who are the ‘eight’ that populated the world a second time? Who populated the world the first time? In either case, genetics tells us that both are impossible, since repeated incest leads to extinction.

    Once again, do you have the irrefutable, falsifiable, evidence that your favourite supposed ‘god’ actually exists? If not, then everything you claim, based on the assumption that there really is some supernatural entity in existence, is deluded, superstitious, BS.

  • David Cromie

    What do you mean by ‘gauge’? Surely we are looking for a historical ‘datum’ point? Religious scholars cannot agree on the exact date the supposed JC was born, but that is of no importance if everyone agrees to use the same, even if fictional, datum point.

  • Philip Rand

    gauge is the measuring device.

  • David Cromie

    CE (Common Era), and BCE (Before the Common Era) are the currently accepted signifiers of dates (unless you are Jewish, for example).

  • Philip Rand

    I have covered this in earlier posts (see above).

    The gauge is independent of the choice of units. The choice of gauge is an NP-complete problem; only a single system is required to describe innumerable systems.

  • David Cromie

    You seem to have the attention span of a gnat, and therefore the comprehension skills of a semi literate cabbage.

  • Philip Rand

    Welshman.

  • D P Wright has very impressive credentials. Hard to imagine how he doesn’t understand the connection between the biblical patriarchs and Ur. But somewhere he reverses the influence to decide against the bible accounts. Doesn’t make him wRight.

  • David Cromie

    Not guilty!

  • Philip Rand

    It is logically impossible to prove a negative. [David Cromie]

  • David Cromie

    Perhaps you would care to explain the ‘connection between the biblical patriarchs and Ur’, as you determine it, for those of us you deem ignorant on the subject.

  • First let’s change the tone – it is not necessary at this point.

    Your not ignorant; just unwilling to accept anything form the bible – even history.
    So when I tell you that Abraham was a contemporary of Hammurabi and lived in Ur and was the source of the Laws you claim came from the mind of Hammurabi you cannot accept that conclusion even as a possibility because you reject anything in the bible.
    When I tell you Josephus mentioned Jesus you cannot accept that either.
    So we have no common ground to debate from. If we do I don’t see it.

    But it is worse than that. You claim the book that has the history I cite, the most published book in the history of the world is a fraud written by small teams of men in the 4th century; while at the same time citing people from the 21st century who claim to have proved that pagan kings like Hammurabi are actually the source of this religious nonsense that you believe you hate.
    Logical? Hardly…

  • rationalobservations?

    You write: “So, Christ is the calendar system.”
    Again: The only historically evidence supported to exist “christ/messiah” is Simon bar Kokhba, born Simon ben Kosevah and he lived and died long after the starting point for the Common Era calendar system that was widely used only in what then became the 8th century.

    It is true that the CE/BCE dating system was suggested by the delusional monk Dionysius Exiguus – but his suggestion was ignored for nearly 200 years and the CE/BCE calendar system was not widely adopted.
    The use of BC(E)/AD(CE) to distinguish time periods came later following the publication of The Ecclesiastical History of the English People in 731 CE by Bede.

    There is no authentic and original historical evidence of the existence of a human man and messiah claimant named “Jesus” and no historical reference to any of the amazing fictional adventures of that legendary character that first appear in myths and stories written by men centuries after the time in which those myths and legends are merely set.

    It’s worth remembering that after the 4th century fabricated cult of “Jesus” was cobbled together and so very brutally imposed upon the world, fewer than 5% of the population were members of any of the “messianic” cults of Mithra, and others.
    The 95% of the population who were devout followers of the “real” gods and then orthodox religions rejected or ignored the then new “Jesus” heresy for a while but after seeing their holy temples and holiest artifacts destroyed, they were offered the option to “convert or die”. No one knows how many died rather than submit to the nonsense and cruelty of 4th century founded “christianity”.

    The whole mythology of “Jesus” makes no sense and has not one single shred of tangible historical evidence at all. There’s no evidence of the existence of Jesus and exploits that appear in bibles written centuries after the time in which the fiction they contain is set.

    According to the OT prophesies and NT legends – “Jesus” could not be the “messiah” even if there was some shred of evidence of his existence.

    Repeating your unsupported garbage fails to justify, validate or excuse that garbage.