The Answer To: “Does The UMC Have A Future?”

The Answer To: “Does The UMC Have A Future?” May 1, 2019

I grieve that the answer to “Does the UMC have a future” is “NO.” I grieve so deeply that I’ve been unable to write. I’ve spent endless hours in my garden, knowing yet again that there are two things almost guaranteed to break the heart: gardens and churches. And mine is broken.

But the “Bible-believers” won. May God, the one they don’t believe in and have excluded from their fellowship, have mercy upon their souls.


Does the UMC have a future? No, because they refuse to accept the humanity of the intersexed
Caster Semenya, intersexed Olympic athlete

No. There is no future to the UMC.

It’s as simple as that.

No, because those “Bible believers” who have taken over The UMC have also shaken their fist in the face of God and declared God a heretic and unacceptable in their church. Why? Because God doesn’t create only in “male or female” categories. Therefore, God has no place in a “Bible-believing” church.

For “Bible-believers,” only a rigid sexual binary, i.e., everyone is either unmistakably male (and desires only women for life partners) or entirely female (and desires only men for life partners), is acceptable. There can be no blending or spectrum of either sexuality or sexual desire in their world.

For some time now, I’ve asked the question, “What do we do with the intersexed?”

I’m asking it again in light of a story that came across my news feed, “Court rules Olympic runner Caster Semenya must use hormone-suppressing drugs to compete.” Semenya is described as an extremely talented female athlete who has unusually high (i.e., male) levels of testosterone in her system. This factor, combined with top-class training and her general physical giftedness, gives her a substantial advantage over other female athletes who have the more usual amount of testosterone in their systems.

The article about Semenya spoke of her as one with a syndrome generally named, “Differences in Sex Development.” Information from an NIH institution, the highly regarded Children’s National Health System, explains it more fully. After describing how male and female genitalia begin to differentiate around the sixth week of fetal life, they note that the process does not always result in a baby that is either male or female.

Changes in a number of genetic or hormonal factors can affect this process, leading to ambiguous genitalia. Ambiguous genitalia, as the word implies, may make determining the child’s gender more difficult. More recently, the term Differences (or Disorders) of Sex Development (DSD) has been used to describe conditions in which the child’s genetics, hormones, internal organs or external genitalia are atypical.

I strongly encourage you to read this entire informational page but here’s a fact that needs to be addressed: “These conditions are not as rare as most think and affect about 1 in 100 newborns.”

One in a hundred. That’s a lot of people. Those “one in a hundred” have now been declared “non-human” by the right-wing “Bible-believers” who have taken over The United Methodist Church. There is no space for them, just as there is no space for the far more significant numbers of gay and lesbian believers.

They use the biblical phrase, “God made them male and female,” as an inviolable scientific fact rather than as a poetic way in a pre-scientific world of expressing the fullness of God’s creative activity. Thus, the “Bible-believers” morphed the Word of God into a hammer of death rather than an invitation to life.

In the process, these “Only-my-interpretation-is-right-Bible-believers” have spat into the face of God, declaring God, who did indeed create some as male AND female rather than as male OR female, simply unacceptable in the Kingdom of Heaven.


The carnage to come

This church that so spits in God’s face must cease to exist.

I have been a United Methodist for 21 years, after spending many more years in the “Bible-believing” world that also declared me, as a woman who knew I was called by God for pastoral leadership, “unacceptable” in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Yes, I came in knowing the discriminatory language was in the Book of Discipline–I had studied it thoroughly before becoming ordained. However, I honestly thought that, with its strong history of standing up for the rights of the oppressed, the UMC would eventually recognize that gays, lesbians, and the intersexed, among others, are also fully human, just as Methodists in years past had finally figured that out for people of color and for women.

I was wrong.

As much as I loved serving the UMC, I am at a point where I am embarrassed to carry now those ordination credentials. Like many others, it took me ten years, ten years of hard work, of study, of gaining more education, of serving, of leading, of papers and interviews and stumbles and missteps, to achieve what had long been treasured credentials.

But now? To be identified with those who openly declare that God can’t be God by their “Bible-believing” standards? That heresy surpasses them all.

The hard-right turn away from God by those “Bible believers,” has destroyed the previous good reputation of Methodism as a place of justice and social holiness.

There is no future to The United Methodist Church.

At this moment, good people, identifying as centrists and progressives, are trying their darndest to salvage something out of this. I appreciate their hard work, their hope of institutional survival, the real concern over the work of the many people who do profoundly important work as part of the general agencies.

Nonetheless, I do not see a way to escape the carnage to come. Most of those working in the general agencies are likely to lose their jobs and livelihoods. The “Bible-believers” see no reason to keep them employed, and the few they may decide to keep will likely need to sign doctrinal and loyalty oaths to the “Bible-believing” victors.

And that’s only the beginning of the likely damage. Without a unified worldwide church, pensions, especially for our oldest and most vulnerable, least financially secure retired clergy, will not be fully funded.

A rose from a bush infected with a virus called rose rosette spread by tiny mites carried by the wind.

Younger clergy, of whom we have precious few, will not be able to align themselves with a church now almost wholly identified as “gay-hating.” In case you don’t know this yet, the language of the traditional plan voted on and affirmed as constitutional by the Judicial Council makes the gay-hating bent clear: the word “practicing” was dropped from their condemnatory words toward homosexuals. Now, it is homosexuals in general, celibate or not, who are unacceptable for ordination. 

Yes, younger clergy will have to leave for the sake of their spiritual integrity.

Even though the “Bible-believing” segment made sure that they could get out with their property if things had not gone their way, the reality is that the somewhat close to six billion dollars worth of church property will eventually become their assets. Many churches, facing dissent in their congregations over whether to leave or not, will give up, shut their doors and hand the keys (and often debt) over to the “Bible believers” who will continue to violate every single biblical norm by triumphantly proclaiming their victory in the takeover.

I grieve that the answer to “Does the UMC have a future” is “NO.” I grieve so deeply that I’ve been unable to write. I’ve spent endless hours in my garden, knowing yet again that there are two things almost guaranteed to break the heart: gardens and churches. And mine is broken.

But the “Bible-believers” won. May God, the one they don’t believe in and have excluded from their fellowship, have mercy upon their souls.


Photo credits: By Yann Caradec from Paris, France – Meeting de Paris, Stade Charlety – 30 juin 2018, CC BY-SA 2.0, Link

ID 118906784 © Susan Vineyard | Dreamstime.com


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  • Reese

    Well, excuuuuuse me! The Bible story I read was about “Adam and Eve” not “Adam and Steve”. Nor was it about “Eve and a Madam” as I can remember.. Christy Lib, you vilify us old conservatives, but we are quoting scripture of 2,000 years – no celebration of the lifestyles you celebrate that I can find. Please, give us the passages…

  • Ivan T. Errible

    The answer is: “Who cares?”
    Those who want to congratulate themselves on their faithfulness with stay; those who want to congratulate themselves on their prophetic witness will go.
    By now this is a play everyone’s seen at least a dozen times before…..

    • SCUBAsabre

      I don’t care about the organization but I do care about the consequences of the “group think”. How an organization filters science and medicine through a religious filter effects people and especially that 1 in 100 kind of grouping (among others).

      I care not because I am intersexed, or that I fall into any particular socially non-normative but because I care about people who are intersex, I care about people who do fall into socially non-normative labels. Some of the brightest, kindest and most amazing people I know have been affected and would be affected by this kind of nonsense.

      I care because when we don’t stand up to bigotry, religously fueled fear based narratives with real consequences, etc., humans have historically abused at the least and murdered at the far end. That’s why I care.

      • John Purssey

        Amen.

      • D.M.S.

        Once we become Christians we Serve Christ Jesus only.
        We don’t serve our own petty sexuality.
        When we are born Male only and Female only and become one for God/Jesus purpose of procreating. Then we Christians are carrying out what God/Jesus created us for. All others serve God/Jesus in other capacities. But it’s not to undermine ( defile ) the marriage of one woman married to man only to procreate for God/Jesus only.

        • SCUBAsabre

          Feel free to live your life in whatever interpretation of Christianity you choose. HOwever, your rights end where other people’s rights begin and especially for anyone not part of your sect of Christianity.

          Marry according to your beliefs but stay the heck out of other people’s marriages. Your opinion, agreement, concurrence, etc. isn’t being solicited. I am sure you don’t care what others think of your marriage that don’t share your sect of Xtiantiy. Who someone else marries has ZERO to do with you or your religion… it doesn’t do anything to you or your spin on what marriage is for you and yours.

          • D.M.S.

            Yes it does. I will not be forced to accept your kind of mentally ill sexual Christianity.
            It has absolutely nothing to do with serving our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.

          • SCUBAsabre

            You are dense… No one seeks nor needs your “acceptance”. No one is forcing you to do anything. We jsut won’t allow you to force your brand judgements founded in your sect of Christiantiy on to others. Go live your twisted brand of worshiping a book while claiming it is a god.

            Once again… who you marry or don’t, who you have sex with and how (so long as it’s a conscenting adult) has no bearing on the rest of us. We don’t care. What you think of what anyone else does is another don’t care. Believe whatever you want..

          • D.M.S.

            You definitely don’t believe in the God/Jesus of Christian scripture that’s for sure.
            You’ve made up your own
            ‘ god ‘ . One that’s fine with your consenting sexual sins.
            All of serve ‘ satan ‘ and Satan only, he is your chosen ‘ god’.

          • SCUBAsabre

            LOLOLOL now that is really funny. Most Christians I know don’t believe in your bastardization of what you claim is Christianity. You worship a book translated mutliple times as direct quotes from your mythical god. Christians I know would challenge your understanding of Christianity just on that basis. I won’t bother as you and which bastardized of a myth you perfer doesn’t matter to me.

            Your lack of logic isn’t surprising when you infer satan as the only option if I or others don’t opt for your chosen sect. Point of fact, I am an Atheist so I don’t hold your myths in any higher regard than I do any other book of mythology. I don’t believe in anything that isn’t proven through evidence. And before you go there, your chosen version of the translated bible isn’t “evidence”. Since you use a binary as a substitute for logic in “either your god or satan”, I wouldn’t expect you to know the difference between a claim (what’s in the bible) and verifiable evidence (demonstrable and repeatable.

            Go live your version of reality in your sect. The rest of us will choose for ourselves unencumbered by your circular logic and faux rationle. Fortuately, most of the Christians I know don’t embrace your hateful exclusionary approach in favor of inclusion and love which is more in keeping with the Christ fables of your bible.

          • D.M.S.

            Read the Torah those same sexual sins are also in their scripture.

            And their scripture hasn’t changed in
            over 4000 years.

          • SCUBAsabre

            What does that have to do with anything in this discussion? Oh that’s right, it doesn’t. When you don’t have a substantive response you employ whataboutism to introduce unrelated topics. We’ll indulge your rant for the moment. Quote the Torah please as to the “sexual sin” you claim it forbids. I’ll wait……

            Even if the Torah (or any Talmic writing for that matter) had this, it would only apply to or be relevant for those that practice and believe in that religion. Oh by the way, the Torah doesn’t but indulging your whataboutism for a moment, it’s still irrelevant for anyone that isn’t Jewish. Oh by the way, that is true for Othodox Judism’s interpretation of the Torah as well.

          • D.M.S.

            You condemn God/Jesus Holy scripture.
            To suit your own demented sexual sin and invent a ‘god ‘ that accepts your sins as good.
            You’re lost to the world.

          • SCUBAsabre

            You are projecting, I have condemned nothing. You are the one claiming people are “condemned”. I merely recognize the varied translations of the bible and the books upon which it was based as the mythology it is along with other faith based books. You attempting to project your own behavior on to me isn’t going to make it so.

            I am very much grounded in this world though I do question if you are. I know where I am, where I have been and where I am headed… not lost in or to the world. I even have a GPS that helps me locate the best routes for getting around the traffic /s.

          • SCUBAsabre

            How does someone that doesn’t share your beliefs living their own effect you in any way? It doesn’t. How does someone else’s marriage effect you in any way? This should be rich.

          • D.M.S.

            When secular society forces true Christians to accept immoral sinful chosen lifestyles of others as being good.
            Which in the presence of God/Jesus is unacceptable to approve.

          • SCUBAsabre

            You seem to be mistaking the fact that others won’t capitulate to your personal choices and beliefs as somehow actually doing something to you. It’s not. You aren’t goign to submit to any version of Islam or Hinduism… or any other faith. Yours sect of Christianity is not more priviledged than them or the right to no belief at all. Yours is an entitled world view where you express that yours is somehow more priviledged than others. News flash… it’s not. We are a secular country where no religion is superior over others though Christianity does a great job of trying to impose on others.

            No one is “forcing you” to do anything. We just aren’t accepting your condemnation as such. You believe whatever you want but it doesn’t make it any more valid than any other faith based judgement. No one cares if you approve.. disapprove… your judgement isn’t required or even solicited. Seculars don’t care who you marry or how you live your life (provided it’s with a conscenting adult) and it’s none of our business. The same is true for our lives, it’s none of your business and doesn’t effect you. No one is telling you or forcing you to marry someone of the same gender.

            You merely having to deal with the fact that not everyone shares your views isn’t forcing you to do or believe anything. You have freedom to live your religion and your choices accordingly. So does everyone else and that includes those who choose other religions, other sects of Christianity or no religion at all. Your way is no better than any other, it’s different but no better. Someone excercising their right to live their happiness doesn’t impede you living yours.

            You are offensive to many on here but you have every right to exist. You merely judging others by your beliefs doesn’t mean others have to listen to you nor do they believe your judgements of them as living anything wrong. In fact, we just laugh when you do it.

          • D.M.S.

            There is only one interpretation of Christian scripture and that is through the HolySpirit Only.

          • SCUBAsabre

            So you don’t even know there is more than one interpretation of Christianity? So you know less about Christianity than you would like to believe. Typical of the zealots like you. So which bible do you believe is the valid one? Which sect of Christianity do you subscribe to/ attend?

            Again… your belief based on “faith” not on “evidence”. Prove there is a god? Prove your bible is the word of god? Remember, claims and bible quotes are not evidence but rather a circular logic. I’ll wait.

          • D.M.S.

            No. You don’t know that there is only one interpretation of God/Jesus word.

          • SCUBAsabre

            I am not the one that said there was “one” interpretation of a god much less your god’s word. You did that. Are you now beginning to argue with your own posts??? HMMMMM

          • SCUBAsabre

            Yawn… So Catholic, Pentacostle, Southern Baptist, Methodist, etc. etc. all believe the exact same thing in your mind. Yes and we are supposed to take you seriously rather than consider you a troll? LOL

          • SCUBAsabre

            What does that mean? Do you speak Aramaic? Do you speak Greek? Do you speak Latin? If you speak none of those languages and use a bible written in all of them and others originally you are even farther from the “interpretation” of the original writings. All the human authors of the books that were chosen for inclusion in the bible spoke different languages at different times in history. You do realize some humans even decided to discard some gospels and include others… That is yet another example of interpretation of what was important to include base on a human decision not a diety. Now lets get into the actual linguistic translations through mutiple versions of multiple languages…. Are you equipted ot have a Histiorical Linguistic discussion?

            So whiich bible are you using and reading? Which sect of Christianity (Catholic, a version of Protostant, a version of Methoidist, how about Baptist… or Pentacostal…. I could go on). So which sect do you subscribe to and which version of the bible?

          • D.M.S.

            Whether you know it or not you’re going to have to bow before ‘ GOD ‘ and try and explain to Him, that you’re doing His will some day very soon.
            Do you really think that God/Jesus will accept your sexual ‘ sins ‘ as good?
            I truly feel sorry for you.

          • SCUBAsabre

            LOLOLOL… First, you are assuming I am gay, which I am not. But that aside we’ll pretend for your fantasy made up diety that I am gay. When I am dead, I am dead. There is no evidence that god exists. You are the one that chose to take stories and statements that a god or gos exist on “faith”.

            So you must believe in Zues right? Afterall, he exists as the Norse have asserted. You take that your god exists based on the words of other humans who wrote a book so you must believe in Zeus. You will need to bow before him and account for your failure to see him as the almighty. How will you handle that?

            So you must believe in Allah right? Afterall, he exists as another book written by humans asserts it. You take god exists based on words of other humans who wrote that so you must believe in Allah.You will need to bow before him and account for your failure to see him as the almighty. How will you handle that?

            So you must believe in Ganish right? Afterall, she exists as another book written by humans asserts it. You take god exists based on words of other humans who wrote that so you must believe in Ganish. You will need to bow before her and account for your failure to see her as the almighty. How will you handle that?

            So you must believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster right? Afterall, he exists as another book written by humans asserts it. You take god exists based on words of other humans who wrote that so you must believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. You will need to bow before him and account for your failure to see him as the almighty. How will you handle that?

            I feel sorry for you because you choose to believe based on no evidence but take on “faith” that becuase it is written in a book that it must be accurate. I feel sorry for anyone that lacks the ability to see their own self delusion. I feel sorry for anyone trapped by the hypocritical nonsense you espouse.

          • D.M.S.

            Do you accept the lgbtq lifestyle as good?
            Because if you do.
            You’re just as damned as if you were gay.

          • SCUBAsabre

            What about Zeus? What about Allah? What about Ganish? What about the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

            Do you accept they are the almighty because if not you are condemned. What will you do????

          • SCUBAsabre

            I accept that LBGTQ.exist and are just as kind, honest, hardworking, loving, people as exist in any other heterosexual grouping of people. I accept that concenting adults living their sexual lives are none of my business. I accept that I don’t get to impose my personal morality on others merely becuase I believe it.

            I make no value judgement on people’s sexual lives so I don’t believe sexuality is “good” or “bad”. Human sexuality is just part of life.

            Your effort to impose your personal judgement of your personal interpretation of your sect of Christianity and the particular bible you choose is what is worth making a value judgement about. Your judgemental apporach violates your own Christian teachings since your god is the only one that is supposed to judge people’s behavior but you seem to elevate yourself to “godly” status since you feel entitled to judge. The value judgement I make is about you as an uninformed about his own faith hypocrite.

          • SCUBAsabre

            I will not bow before anyone much less a myth. Feel free to bow before your delusion all you want. I don’t care what anyone accespts or doesn’t accept, judges or doesn’t judge about how I live my life. It’s a non-issue. Because you believe doesn’t mean others share your delusion.

          • D.M.S.

            You’ve been warned of God/Jesus truth.
            I truly hope that wake up some day and see His truth.
            Goodbye.

          • SCUBAsabre

            LOLOLOLOL so you have no responses because if you had to answer the questions I posed, you would be forced to see your irrational statments are just your beliefs. Typical zealot.

      • Cynthia Brown Christ

        Thank you so much for caring, and for why you care!

        • SCUBAsabre

          Thank you – You are generous.

  • Brian K

    If the label has ceased to accurately describe you, probably time to change the label.

  • John Purssey

    You are right to use quotes for “Bible believers”.

    The phrase is used like a banner and to claim identity to a group that avoids anything but a superficial understanding of what bible believing could mean. I doubt that many have even read much o what they snobbishly claim. It implies that they think other Christians don’t believe in the Bible.

    But then Christians are supposed to believe in God and Jesus Christ. Some may think that God is unable to make Himself known except through the Bible. I’ve heard that expressed!

    • KontraDiction

      I’ve heard that too, and even worse: that there IS no morality apart from the Bible.

      I’ve finally read it myself, and I have to say, it’s a REALLY mixed bag. Some beauty, some horror, some truth and a lot of tall tales. And all this without even knowing Greek or the ancient culture it came from. Yah, good luck with that.

      Superficial is right.

      • John Purssey

        If they knew the Bible they might remember that Paul wrote in Rom 2 14-15 that it is written on their hearts.

        • D.M.S.

          You should of went a little further with Romans 2:16
          KJV.

  • kcwookie

    Oh well, it means less wallet open for the offering. I grew up UM and learned all about Christians in Sunday School. I remember my classmates complaining to the pastor when he selected me to light the advent candle before a service that I wasn’t Christian enough to light the candle. The pastor didn’t change his mind, but he also failed to use it as a teaching moment. I lit the candle, but was despised for doing it. Through out my life all I see is people pretending to be something and acting the opposit of that expoused belief.

    The one blessing of this is once you leave the pews it’s easier to see God.

    • Billgxsd

      Amen to that!!!

  • Tom

    Christy, first let me say that neither the UMC nor Good News has ever issued a formal statement (or to my knowledge even informal ones) about our position on transgendered or interesex people. We have no official position. We have concerns, but no formal stance on this issue.

    Second, the omission of the word “practicing” is an error that we were unable to correct at St. Louis because of the delay tactics by the One Church Plan supporters. The Renewal and Reform Coalition is issuing a statement tomorrow to that effect. We intend to correct it in 2020.

    I am sensitive to the pain you may have experienced in your past as a woman called to ministry and as someone who experienced divorce without the support of your church community. But please don’t read all of that past experience into United Methodist evangelicals. We are not fundamentalists. Most of us are not complementarians. We believe strongly in women in ministry and equality for women. We have a nuanced view of divorce and certainly don’t consider it the unforgivable sin (for those for whom divorce is an expression of sin–we also believe there are often innocent parties to a divorce).

    All we ask is that if the church requires something of us, we all live by that. Were it not for the rebellion by some bishops and clergy, all the accountability measures of the Traditional Plan would not have been necessary. Every piece of legislation passed by General Conference on this controversy over the past 40 years has been prompted by some act of disobedience. We cannot have unity in the church where there is this attitude of rebellion. I remain open to and hopeful for an amicably negotiated way forward that allows us to walk on separate paths. So I do agree with your headline, there is no future for a “united” Methodist Church. But it is possible to get to a positive future without the demonizing and vitriolic language.

    • Kate Johnson

      It’s very easy to call for calm when you’re the winner, isn’t it? When you’ve lost nothing at all? Since the conservatives voted to make it as difficult as possible for the churches who disagree to leave, your hope for an amicable separation is most likely a pipe dream. Sadly, as is often true with conservatives, it’s not enough for them to have the freedom to do things their way, they must also force everyone else to do it their way also, without the smallest consideration or compromise, as we’ve seen here. What a witness to the world. Our fundamentalist interpretation of scripture is more important than love and unity. It’s no wonder people are leaving the church in droves. It’s conservative iterations regularly choose the law over grace, talking about the love of God, but when it come down to it, there’s little evidence of putting it in action. My heart deeply grieves for my LGBTQ brothers and sisters, who have been so devastated by this decision. It’s ironic, awhile ago, though I’m not gay, I decided, I could no long go to, or financially support a church that wasn’t equally welcoming to everyone, so I started going the the UMC. I guess “the joke” is on me. Although my church has openly said they do not care what the corporate church is doing, they will just keep on keeping on, which I imagine is being said in UMC churches all over the country particularly on the east and west coast. I will keep going to my church, but I will make sure that not a penny of my tithing goes back to the corporate church. If the conservatives had any charity, they would fairly negotiate a separation, but since to date, they’ve shown no fruit of the spirit at all, why would anyone believe they’d start now? It’s funny you say the our segment of the church is in rebellion, against your interpretation of scripture. Well, Jesus also challenged the narrow minded, self serving interpretation of scripture regularly while he was here on earth. We think your segment of the church is in rebellion, for violating the law of love. So I guess it just depends on your point of view.

      • D.M.S.

        I also grieve for my celibate lgbt brothers and sisters in Christ. They should also be allowed to serve our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.

      • Cynthia Brown Christ

        What a well stated post!

      • D.M.S.

        God/Jesus condemns all the sexually active lgbtq people, more than the conservative Christians do.
        But we still want the lgbtq to repent and turn away from their immoral lifestyles.
        And live their lives for God/Jesus as celibate Christians.

        • Kate Johnson

          Where in the Bible is the verse/s with Jesus condemning active LGBTQ people? Not Paul, not the Old Testament, but Jesus. i think you don’t know your Bible very well.

          • D.M.S.

            When you can answer this question.
            You will answer your question.
            Is Jesus God?

          • Kate Johnson

            That’s certainly my belief. It’s also my belief that you are just a troll. Bye.

          • D.M.S.

            Then John 10:30 should tell everyone how Christ Jesus stands on all sinful acts.

          • Kate Johnson

            Right, so you couldn’t find a verse, which of course I already knew, because I actually know the Bible, clearly better than you, if you are lying about it’s contents to justify your argument. There is no instance in the Bible of Jesus specifically condemning homosexuality.

          • D.M.S.

            You’ve chosen to ignore God/Jesus many commands of what ‘ not ‘ to do on this earth while we serve Him.
            You’ve chosen your own god and messiah to follow. Rules and commandments that you deem what is good to live by.
            Your itching ears are showing for all to see( including God/Jesus ).
            You’re sinking into hell with your master Satan, minion.

          • Kate Johnson

            You just like the Pharisees before you have chosen law over grace. I feel sorry for you.

          • D.M.S.

            You’ve chosen your itching ears of your own made up god.
            I feel sorry for you.

          • D.M.S.

            🙂

          • D.M.S.

            If you know the Bible better than I, which all of Satans minions such as yourselves do.
            Which is why you take no stock in God/Jesus inerrant scripture.
            You’re lost to the world kate,
            1 John 2:15-17.

          • D.M.S.

            Yawn…

          • D.M.S.

            Really, if you’re as well versed in scripture as you say that you are.
            You expect me to bring up a verse that you don’t know?
            Why would anyone do that?

          • customartist

            Well he Certainly had every opportunity.

          • D.M.S.

            So I’m a troll for telling all of you on this page that it’s a sin to have homosexual sexual relationships unto God/Jesus?

        • customartist

          No, he may condemn the sin, but he does not condemn the person. It is the Church and its inhabitants who reject LGBT people from the ministry, not Jesus. They must know better than He?

          “Jesus will never reject you” = John 6:37

          • D.M.S.

            If what you’re saying is true. Then Adolf Hitler is also in heaven.

          • D.M.S.

            Did God the Father send you to Jesus?
            How did God the Father do that?

      • D.M.S.

        Is Christ Jesus a conservative?
        Or a liberal?

        • customartist

          He is In-clusive, as opposed to Ex-clusive.

          • D.M.S.

            By GOD the Father.

      • customartist

        Amen Kate.

    • RonT

      Well written Tom. Especially on your comment: “Were it not for the rebellion by some bishops and clergy, all the accountability measures of the Traditional Plan would not have been necessary.”. Not to mention those candidates for Ordination that knowingly deceived the church when they vowed to abide by the Discipline at their Ordination Service.

      I am unhappy with two statements, one in the article: ” triumphantly proclaiming their victory in the takeover.”, and another in a counter comment: “It’s very easy to call for calm when you’re the winner…”. I don’t see it as a victory but a reaffirmation of the historical tenets of the Methodist/United Methodist Church. It is not a, matter of winners and losers but not allowing the society to change the UMC but the UMC changing society.

  • i do not know the UMC as I was a Catholic when I was attending a Church. But I know something about Church dictum. The first one I remember was birth control and the rhythm method. It made no sense to me then or now but that was and still is the church’s position. Women could not become priests then or now. The expression “Mixed Marriages” is given to couples where one spouse is a non-catholic when the marriage is allowed.

    There is no recourse or appeal because you don’t like or can’t accept the Church dictum. If you decide not to attend or denounce you Catholic faith so be it. This Church doesn’t care. It has adhered to its principles before and after Martin Luther and it is still a billion members strong. This Church even survives it’s own scandals like priest pedophiles as hard as that is to believe.

    So as to the the UMC, either it holds fast or it bends. I say bends because nothing has changed in scripture – only people have changed deciding to put pressure on their Church to change. I would argue if the UMC bends then the members who disagree should leave and form their own Church or join another Church.

    • D.M.S.

      Just because they’re a billion strong in the RCC does not mean that, they’re not all going to ‘ Hell ‘ because they’re following church doctrine.
      Instead of their Messiah, Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.

      • It does seem odd that these churches, who do not follow God’s Laws, still seem to grow and survive. But these rebellious organizations teach many about God and Jesus. This is a good start and can be built on. More and more today I see people who do not even believe in God let alone His Laws.

        • D.M.S.

          Satan is doing his job quite well deluding those to believe his false doctrine. And approved by God/Jesus on it.
          When we read God/Jesus scripture thru the HolySpirit. We will understand His message correctly.
          But just listening to a priest or clergy tell us what it says without reading scripture ourselves is our fault.

          • Completely agree.
            Do you know the Plan of God for Man?

          • D.M.S.

            Yes.
            Salvation to those who serve Him, thru His word.
            Destruction for those who don’t serve Him in any capacity.

          • Ok. But let’s look further.
            What of the people of the first age and those from Noah until the birth of Jesus who did not know Jesus. Are they doomed because of when they were born or is there a plan for them too?

          • D.M.S.

            I’m sure that there is salvation for them.
            But they have been dead for over a thousand years, it doesnt matter to me about salvation that occurred that long ago.
            I’m worrried about today’s souls, they’re the ones that I’m concerned about.

          • Yes there is salvation for them but it has not happened yet. No one is in heaven yet as you know. But God’s Plan encompasses them and us to be sure.

          • D.M.S.

            My pastor would disagree with you. He states that there are people in heaven right now.

          • I completely understand being a former Catholic who perfected today’s Christian concept of Hell and even Purgatory. The bible says otherwise in John 3:13 “No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven–the Son of Man.”

            But the Catholics are conflicted. Having served about 100 funerals as an altar boy I can hear the many priests during those services quoting the Resurrection from Ezekiel and the Dry Bones. Ezekiel 37, especially verses 12-13. After you read the verses below ask yourself this question. If certain people go to heaven when they die why are they being “resurrected” when the Lord returns to this earth. To be in Heaven you must be Spirit; what else is left?
            1
            The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones.
            2
            He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry.
            3
            He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” I said, “O Sovereign LORD, you alone know.”
            4
            Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, `Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD!
            5
            This is what the Sovereign LORD says to these bones: I will make breath [1] enter you, and you will come to life.
            6
            I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the LORD.'”
            7
            So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone.
            8
            I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.
            9
            Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe into these slain, that they may live.'”
            10
            So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet–a vast army.
            11
            Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, `Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’
            12
            Therefore prophesy and say to them: `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel.
            13
            Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them.
            14
            I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.’

          • D.M.S.

            You’re welcome to recite on the scripture that you like. As soon as Christ Jesus resurrected into heaven all those that were in paradise, joined Him in heaven.
            I’ve been inter-denominational my entire Christian life.
            I do not know what denominations teach or care.
            If you want to believe that no one is in heaven right now you’re welcome to that belief.
            I will not be joining you in that belief.
            And it does not matter one iota, that you and I have a difference in that one belief.
            It’s just like those that believe in the rapture. It doesn’t matter one bit, if we believe in pre or mid trib, or just before the Lord Christ Jesus return.

            Our job as Christians is to plant the seeds of Christ Jesus in all that are presented to us.
            And the HolySpirit intervenes from there.
            Peace.

          • Where is this Paradise you reference please?

          • D.M.S.

            Take your pride somewhere else.
            And I’ll do the same.
            Peace.

          • D.M.S.

            Luke 23:43. –

        • D.M.S.

          It’s amazing that so many people who call themselves a Christian, have no idea about Christ Jesus.

    • D.M.S.

      Luke16:19-26.

      • John 3:13 – Acts 2:34 and Luke 16:22.
        What is the answer to the problem presented here?

        • D.M.S.

          I’m not going answer your questions.
          Peace.

        • D.M.S.

          Yes there bodies are buried but their souls are not. In Luke 16:23 does it not say, that the rich man lifted his eyes in hades, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus was in his bosom?
          No humans body has ascended into heaven, accept Christ Jesus. But our human souls are either in heaven or hell.

          • Yes,the soul is spirit and returns to God after death.
            No, those souls have been judged yet. They await the resurrections; most to life some to eternal destruction.

  • D.M.S.

    What Christian in their God/Jesus given mind would care even 2 cents for the UMC doctrine, the RCC doctrine, or the Mormon doctrine. None of it is God/Jesus biblical scripture. The inerrant word of God/Jesus from His scripture is the only thing that All Christians are to follow.

    • John Purssey

      So many interpretations are possible that the notion of infallibility is an impossibility. Even if it existed it would be impossible to determine what it was.

      • D.M.S.

        There is only one interpretation and it come from our Holy, Holy, Holy, HolySpirit.

    • customartist

      God is still speaking.

      • D.M.S.

        Not in their manmade doctrine He isn’t.

      • Ivan T. Errible

        Really?
        How’s that working out for him? Because it seems fewer and fewer people are listening.

  • Elca

    I guess it is just a matter of time before Semenya change back or have regrets.
    But until then, I hope he beats all the females in his race. Most women are against gender role distinctions and differences, and so we have
    a gender confuse culture to contend with.
    But this too will come to pass.

  • Chuck Johnson

    Of course the UMC has a future, just not a future with you, Christy.
    There are loads of Christian churches that you will not be a part of.
    Now UMC is one of those, too,

    Your Christian politics are very substantially progressive.
    Progressives are the people that you agree with and will work with in the future.
    I’m glad to see that you are writing again.

    • Ivan T. Errible

      I won’t be a part of any church. Stop pretending that anything Methodists do has any effect except on a very small band of people with nothing better to do with their time.

      • D.M.S.

        God/Jesus sees, hears and knows everything that you do every minute of everyday.
        Whether you believe in Him or Not.

        • Chuck Johnson

          He knows if you’ve been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake.
          Your philosophy is childish.
          You are gullible.

          • D.M.S.

            I thank the good Lord, yes I am in Him.

        • Ivan T. Errible

          God as Big Brother….

          • D.M.S.

            Big brother……. lol.
            God/Jesus saw us in our mother’s womb1000’s of years before our mothers were even born.

      • Chuck Johnson

        Christianity (including Methodists) still has a big effect on societies.
        It’s not gone yet.

        • Ivan T. Errible

          So does toxic waste….

          • Chuck Johnson

            Ivan, you are so dramatic.

        • D.M.S.

          Lgbtq Methodist are ‘ NOT ‘ Christians.

          • Chuck Johnson

            So you say.
            Some of them might say the same of you.
            Christianity is entertaining for those people who like controversy and contention.

          • D.M.S.

            Are all of the lgbtq Methodist celibate and teach celibacy.
            Because that is only how it is presented in God/Jesus/HolySpirit scripture.

          • D.M.S.

            Christianity isn’t entertainment either it serving our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.

          • Chuck Johnson

            There is a big element of entertainment and self-gratification in the version of Christianity that you have been showing us in your messages.

            If your comments had any miraculous Christian wisdom in them, it would show.
            Instead, you show us anger, small-mindedness and you tell us that everyone should hate their family.

            You are entertaining yourself.
            You pretend that it is a miraculous morality that you preach.
            You are fooling yourself, you are not fooling me.

            And if you would then say that I will burn in hell, you would just be playing the fool again.

          • D.M.S.

            I’m following scripture.
            Scripture states that the world ( such as some of you on this page ) will hate us Christians for following Christ Jesus scripture.

            The entainment here is you. You’ve stated here and on other ( OP’s ) that you’re an atheist.
            Your visceral hatred of true Christianity is obvious to all that read anything that you state about the Lord Jesus scripture.
            Peace.

          • D.M.S.

            I’m just bring all of you the scripture and it’s meaning that all of you choose to ignore.
            That is how the world away from God/Jesus thinks.

          • Chuck Johnson

            You bring the scripture that supports your own favorite ideas.
            You ignore the scripture that doesn’t agree with you.

          • D.M.S.

            You mean to tell me that you people actually believe that the God of the New Testament and the God of the Old Testament are two different God’s?

            After what Christ Jesus stated in John 10:30?

          • Chuck Johnson

            “You mean to tell me that you people actually believe that the God of the New Testament and the God of the Old Testament are two different God’s?”

            Some people do.
            That’s what the Holy Trinity is all about.

            But don’t argue with me about it.
            I don’t believe in the supernatural.
            I believe that Jesus was a not a god, but a human and that the Christian God is a fictional character and a human invention.

          • D.M.S.

            You believe the same way that my dad did.
            The only thing I can do for you is pray for you.
            Goodbye

          • D.M.S.

            Or in your case the, entire scripture that you believe is a work of ….
            ……” Fiction Only “.

          • Chuck Johnson

            Fact and fiction combined.

          • D.M.S.

            No.
            You’ve chosen what you don’t like and made it fiction.

            There are a few things about scripture that I don’t like either. But to me scripture is 100% Fact.

          • Chuck Johnson

            I am a scientist and science shows us that the miracles are just stories.

          • D.M.S.

            Mr. You’re welcome to your disbelief, that is your choice.
            I pray you’ll change your mind.
            But I believe in God/Jesus scripture 100%.
            Science is ‘ not ‘100% right as far as I’m cincerned.

          • Chuck Johnson

            Science and scripture are not 100% right.

          • D.M.S.

            Your disbelief of scripture is ‘ not ‘ going to change my 100% belief in our Lord Christ Jesus scripture.

          • D.M.S.

            Your science is wrong.
            There many other scientist that believe the miracles of the Lords scripture.
            Which believers in science do we believe? Yours? Or the others?

          • Chuck Johnson

            Being a scientist in one discipline does not mean that you know other areas of study.
            This is a common mistake that people make.

            Being a scientist does not inform you about miracles.
            It would inform a scientist if they decided to apply their scientific expertise to the question of miracles.

          • D.M.S.

            I’ve read that science believes in the hoax of approximately 6 big bangs in your so-called billions of years belief of our universe.
            I don’t believe any of sciences silliness on this subject.

          • Chuck Johnson

            Science refers to one big bang about 13 billion years ago.

          • D.M.S.

            It never happened.
            And there are more than one Big Bang theory that science tries to pass off as true.

          • Chuck Johnson

            Your religious stories are from long ago.
            People made things up based upon what was known long ago.

            Now, scientists make up their stories informed by empiricism.
            Empiricism keeps science on the right track.
            The track towards improved knowledge and truth.

          • D.M.S.

            Lol…..I will not return to your make believe world.

    • D.M.S.

      All progressive churches will be going to Hell where they belong.

      • Chuck Johnson

        “All progressive churches will be going to Hell where they belong.”

        This idea is popular among some people.
        Also the fact that mothers and doctors wrap a newborn baby in a blanket and then murder him.
        And that we shouldn’t build windmills because the lights will go out when the wind stops.

        But you should learn that all of these ideas are just public entertainment.
        You learn the truth via a very different route than such entertainment.

        • D.M.S.

          I’m a Christian.
          I’m not a republican.

          • Chuck Johnson

            But still a fan of public entertainment presented as if it’s real news.

          • D.M.S.

            I don’t have a TV.
            All my news comes from my radio.

          • Chuck Johnson

            If it’s AM radio conservative talk show hosts that you listen to, you are being poisoned.
            You are giving credence to conspiracy theories.

          • D.M.S.

            Who?
            Robert Jeffries and Michael Youseff.

          • Chuck Johnson

            They seem to be spelled this way:

            Robert Jeffress
            Michael Youssef

          • D.M.S.

            It doesn’t matter. You knew exactly who I meant.

          • Chuck Johnson

            Only after looking them up with Google.
            I spend almost no time listing to AM radio talk show politics.
            I find their ideas shocking.

          • D.M.S.

            I also find the liberal fake news of CNN and MSNBC to be just as shocking with their sexual mental illness for our society.

          • D.M.S.

            And the liberal news is just as nutty.

          • D.M.S.

            It’s AM and FM stereo.

          • D.M.S.

            Yes when I’m able to see CNN or MSNBC that’s entertainment.

        • D.M.S.

          What does windmills have to do with churches?

          • Chuck Johnson

            Te connection is superstition and ignorance.
            Our president and religious fundamentalists.

          • D.M.S.

            That’s one of the most vague answers that I have received in quite awhile.

          • Chuck Johnson

            It’s from the news headlines.
            Donald trump provides crazy tweets which end up on the news.

          • D.M.S.

            No thanks, tweety…

          • D.M.S.

            Obama is the worst president that the USA has seen since Carter and Johnson.
            The liberal progressive morons of this world such as yourself, and Cortez, Sanders, Booker, Harris, Farrakhan, Winfrey, Maddox, Clinton, Clapper, Cooper, Lemon, etc.
            Will ‘ RUIN ‘ the USA.

          • Chuck Johnson

            It’s worse than you thought.
            Andrew Yang is coming to get you.
            https://www.yang2020.com/

          • D.M.S.

            Ying, Yang, walla walla bing bang…….

  • Steve McAlpine

    It’s probably best not to raise the issue of Semenya on this site for the sake of your theological position. Let the runner’s online Bible LetsRun deal with the running issues. Read the article here. https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/?fbclid=IwAR0LO4Fau-5kx5BvtbhdLIo3VpSndZ7vTBHF95g2Ax-Oje5JCh3LsD35ktg The sports documentation clearly states that Semenya is XY. Clearly states it. The LetsRun article has no skin in the religious game, only the running game. The fact that all three medals- gold, silver and bronze at the 800m Olympics in 2016 – were intersex simply proves that women (XX) no longer have a long term (successful) place in elite sports (unless they’re riding a horse). And athletes are super angry about it. Sullen to the point of despair. At 52 years of age, and a runner, it’s a rare race I’ve run where more than three or four women beat me – and that’s across all age categories. Testosterone matters – and matters a lot, and you using Semenya to push your own theological barrow is both unfortunate, and a sign that you don’t truly understand what this will do to women’s sport, which may or may not survive as long as the UMC, which itself looks pretty shaky.

    • newenglandsun

      I find it interesting that the court explicitly ruled in favour of the IAAF on the basis that their rule was discriminatory and that the discrimination was necessary in order to ensure the fairness of women’s sports.

      • Steve McAlpine

        yep – and we discriminate about a lot of things all of the time for good and honourable reasons. Weighing it up is the key.

        • newenglandsun

          Well I would adamantly defend the right to discriminate with a # but the last time I did that, I got banned for an alleged “racist” comment…

      • Chuck Johnson

        You said “fairness” of women’s sports.
        I would be more specific and say “entertainment value and profitability” of women’s sports.
        This takes into account the fact that the ruling is somewhat unfair to Semenya.

        • newenglandsun

          Actually, it’s not unfair to Semenya at all. Semenya clearly has biological abnormalities that give her an unfair edge to other women. Would you be fine telling your daughter that she has to compete against someone with far higher testosterone levels than her and therefore, could have an easy physiological edge against her? Science–only relevant when the leftist side can bash a conservative over the head with it I see.

          • Chuck Johnson

            “Actually, it’s not unfair to Semenya at all.”
            Try telling that to Semenya, her friends and her family.

            This story is not just about legal conclusions.
            It’s about people, too.

          • newenglandsun

            It’s not about how Semenya feels. The world does not revolve around Semenya nor is there evidence that Semenya is singled out by this. Francine Niyonsaba said the rule could potentially affect her as well. It’s not about singling out Niyonsaba. It is about preserving the fairness for women’s sports. You are correct that it is about people too. I agree! Women, incidentally, are people too and protecting the integrity of women’s sports protects the integrity of women!

          • Chuck Johnson

            “It’s not about how Semenya feels.”

            Yes it is.
            It is about a lot of things.
            One of those things is how Semenya feels.

          • newenglandsun

            No. It is not. Feelings cannot be used to determine rules and regulations. If feelings were the mere determining factors then you would care about how the other women feel having to compete against someone who has a biologically unfair advantage. It is about facts. And facts are that masculine features guarantee a better biological physiological structure that grant men an advantage in sporting events. Those with more masculine features have more heavyset advantage. So it is not about how Semenya feels but whether it is fair to women’s sports to allow people with higher levels of testosterone than an average biological female to compete. Facts say it is extraordinarily unfair and any one disagreeing is a science denier.

            P.S. After being decried by leftists as one myself, that actually felt awesome to point out scientific evidence to a leftist trying to skirt around scientific facts 😀

          • Chuck Johnson

            “No. It is not.”
            Yes it is.

            Your details are irrelevant.
            This news story is about Semenya’s feelings among other things.
            Try to read what I write before you go off on another tangent.

          • newenglandsun

            Actually, my details ARE relevant. Are you saying the news is only about Semenya’s feelings or is the news about Semenya’s feelings in relation to the IAAF’s regulations? Semenya’s feelings are about the IAAF’s regulations so the story is about the IAAF’s regulations as much as it is about Semenya. I did not go off on any tangent. I established why Semenya’s personal feelings are irrelevant when considering the rules and regulations that a sports organisation, like the IAAF in this case, want to set in place. You have no argument which is why you have to circle back to Semenya’s feelings. Science-denier.

          • Chuck Johnson

            You still don’t know what I have been saying.
            You are still just talking to yourself.

          • newenglandsun

            I don’t think you know what Semenya’s feelings are centered around…

          • Chuck Johnson

            Any legitimate resentment and disappointment on Semenya’s part would be the the disappointment of her work, training and efforts turning out to be wasted because of a legal decision.
            In that way, the sudden ending of her career is unfair.

            But if she thinks that the decision is wrong, that kind of resentment would not be justified. The decision is based upon scientific facts which are relevant.

          • newenglandsun

            Well that is unfortunate indeed but again, completely irrelevant to the reason for the legal decision. It does not matter whether she thinks the decision to be wrong or not. The justification for the legal decision is irrelevant to Semenya’s feelings but is about scientific facts. Glad we agree.

          • SCUBAsabre

            Point of fact, it is NOT a FACT that your judgement that it is extraordinarily unfair and anyone disagreeing is a science denier.

            Let’s unpack shall we… It is a fact that higher levels of testosterone can provide an advantage.

            It is an opinion that anyone disagreeing is a science denier.

            Now… you do know there are also women who naturally produce more testosterone while remaining chomosonally a woman right? Where are you drawing the line? The issue is not that this doesn’t need to be addressed, I take issue with your effort to over simplify both the science and the solution as well as your assigned nonsense about being a science denier.

            You conflate chromosonal status with hormone production and assert an over simplified solution. Playing devil’s advocate, the chromosonal woman with higher natural testosterone is still a woman so she should be able to compete in your solution right? My point is you’re injecting politics and ignoring the more nuanced issues, including the science yourself.

            Oh and before you go there, I am not a liberal so please stay on topic rather than going off on your political rant. Thank you.

          • newenglandsun

            “Let’s unpack shall we… It is a fact that higher levels of testosterone can provide an advantage.”
            Fact–we agree.

            “It is an opinion that anyone disagreeing is a science denier.”
            Considering that it was based on the aforementioned fact, this too, is a fact.

            “Now… you do know there are also women who naturally produce more testosterone while remaining chomosonally a woman right?”
            I am aware of the complications–however, the VAST majority of women produce limited testosterone and it is demonstrably unfair, as we both agree, that allowing for higher amounts damages the integrity of women’s sports.

            “You conflate chromosonal status with hormone production and assert an over simplified solution. Playing devil’s advocate, the chromosonal woman with higher natural testosterone is still a woman so she should be able to compete in your solution right?”
            We could also dispute what would make then a woman a woman. But no, the decision was in regard to the testosterone levels. It had nothing to do with the chromosomal.

            “My point is you’re injecting politics and ignoring the more nuanced issues, including the science yourself.”
            No politics or ignoring. I have heard these counter-assessments numerous times. All they do is attempt to blur the lines of gender.

            “Oh and before you go there, I am not a liberal so please stay on topic rather than going off on your political rant.”
            Then you should know that while I would consider myself a conservative and definitively against transgenderism as an overall gender philosophy and way of life, I actually don’t have a problem with a biological male who keeps his testosterone levels low enough via artificial hormonal production, competing in women’s sports.

          • SCUBAsabre

            Actually, there is a difference between the chromosonal designations but you brushing it off to a binary says more about what you don’t know or don’t bother to learn than it does about the relalities of this issue.

            Point of medical fact, Transgender is NOT a “way of life” nor is it a “philosophy”. Do some homework on it before you comment. It is a medical codition you can live in a fantasy that it isn’t but it won’t render it less a medical issue nor will it convert it to some social movement of Philosopy as you would like to believe.

            You agreeing or not agreeing with transgender is irrelevant and has nothing to do with being conservative. Your opinion about Transgenderism has as much validity as if you choose to renouce vaccines or cancer medications. The fact that they are medically proven effective is all that matters. You and the Anti-vaxer crowd seem to overlap here in that your selective ignorance fuels your “opinion” on a medical condition. So in a different way you have illustrated that you have much in common with a typically radically left ideology.

            Since you believe your opinion becomes fact merely because one piece of your dependent clause sentence is a fact illustrates beutifully how little you understand the difference between proving your point with evidence and merely emotionally spouting extrapolations of opinion for not agreeing with you.

          • newenglandsun

            There’s lots of nuances (allegedly) in chromosomal differences. Apparently, one can be an XY female…It’s called Swyer Syndrome.

            “Transgender is NOT a “way of life” nor is it a “philosophy”. Do some homework on it before you comment. It is a medical codition you can live in a fantasy that it isn’t but it won’t render it less a medical issue nor will it convert it to some social movement of Philosopy as you would like to believe.”
            A distorted philosophy/way of life where you can live in a fantasy or a medical condition where one can live in a fantasy. I guess we just disagree on semantics here.

            “Your opinion about Transgenderism has as much validity as if you choose to renouce vaccines or cancer medications. The fact that they are medically proven effective is all that matters. You and the Anti-vaxer crowd seem to overlap here in that your selective ignorance fuels your “opinion” on a medical condition.”
            Wait, what? I thought you said you were politically a conservative. I don’t understand why you’re choosing to rant to me about politically liberal positions and call me ignorant. I do happily renounce cancer medications on a personal level because I would rather not suffer. I have observed their effectiveness in people. Similar to vaccines though there is some dispute about the mercury levels in vaccines and so I want verification that vaccines have lowered their mercury rates. Like Robert Kennedy, Jr., I am not anti-tuna because I want lower levels of mercury in my tuna–nor am I anti-vaccination. That said, now that we are disputing transgenderism, I would say there is less medically significant about it. It’s not like one who is a male will die unless they use a surgery to hack off their genitalia and “become” females (like that could ever happen–LOL!).

            “So in a different way you have illustrated that you have much in common with a typically radically left ideology.”
            Wait, what?!? So if Jill Stein, Robert Kennedy, Jr., Tucker Carlson, and Donald Trump all agree on something, that means the latter two have “much in common with radical left ideology”? I’m scratching my head trying to understand how issues relating to mercury levels in vaccinations have now become politically partisaned.

            “Since you believe your opinion becomes fact merely because one piece of your dependent clause sentence is a fact illustrates beutifully how little you understand the difference between proving your point with evidence and merely emotionally spouting extrapolations of opinion for not agreeing with you.”
            My “opinion” became fact because the part of my dependent clause statement that people who disagree with find themselves having to deny reality was the conclusion that was supported by reality.

            Your words:
            “It is a fact that higher levels of testosterone can provide an advantage.”
            Exactly what I said.

            Your words:
            “It is an opinion that anyone disagreeing is a science denier.”
            That can’t be a matter of opinion though since you agreed that what we are disagreeing with is a fact.

          • SCUBAsabre

            Let’s not conflate the XY (chromosome) science with the testostorone (hormone) science shall we. There is far more to this issue than just science too. Also, the idea that one is in a minority on the genetic or hormonal level does not make them “abnormal” as you asset. It’s not an anomoly nor is it some unknown. Please don’t conflate societal over-simplification of male/ female with the scientific and medical communities long awareness that these minority conditions have always existed. Society is just catching up and having to meander through the ramifications of how that effects things in society that are based on binary simplifications.

            This isn’t about left or right, conservative or liberal/progressive.

          • newenglandsun

            Those are reasonable considerations for the IAAF to take up on. However, the question becomes should an abnormality set the rules or should the normality set the rules? I favour the norm.

          • SCUBAsabre

            I would argue its not a binary normal vs abnormal. As I wrote, this is a known issue and a % of the population has always had this and other related chromosomeal and natural hormone diffences. Being in a minority does not render it abnormal.

            That said, the social constructs and the rules around all the binary designations and over simplified/ arbitrary designations needs reevaluation. Do I know how that all needs to be laid out??? Absolutely not… I have some ideas but none are perfect and it would require multiple changes not just one or two. However, it is not an option to just dismiss the minority merely becuase the average in the bell curve can’t compete against them. That is not the solution. Oh by the way, I am a woman… always have been and competed in sports myself. I competed in martial arts often against women and men that were larger than I so i am not merely speculating about sports and competition.

          • newenglandsun

            “Being in a minority does not render it abnormal.”
            In terms of gender traits, I would say it does.

            Honestly, I am not dismissing your position because I negate your experience so emphasizing you are a women who has competed in sports means nothing to me.

          • SCUBAsabre

            Once again you display your ability to assert an opinon that has nothing to do with facts. You “feel” it’s abnormal because you subsribe to an artificial social binary construct. That binary is warm and fuzzy for you as it’s familiar. You “believe” your opinion substitutes for reality. The reality being a Minority Chromosonal and or Minority Horrmonal condition renders it to your warm fuzzy judgement of abnormal. Abnormal lets you off the hook for dealing with it in reality. Got it… you substitue your opinion for reality where your opinon of it means nothing. To be clear… my “opinion” of it would also mean nothing. It’s about the distinction between facts and emotional opinions.

            I never thought nor implied you were dismissing for any other reason than your inability to deal in facts rather than substitute your opinion based on fuzzy logic (not to be confused with the warm fuzzy in the previous paragraph). I added my having competed mostly to illustrate that I am not speaking merely from medical fact but as someone who is amply familiar with the somewhat arbitrary lines drawn around competition groupings.

          • newenglandsun

            “Once again you display your ability to assert an opinon that has nothing to do with facts. You “feel” it’s abnormal because you subsribe to an artificial social binary construct.”
            It’s not an arbitrary social binary construct. God created them male and female. You tell me not to preach politics to you and yet you go ahead and preach politics to me. You’re a hypocrite.

            “The reality being a Minority Chromosonal and or Minority Horrmonal condition renders it to your warm fuzzy judgement of abnormal. Abnormal lets you off the hook for dealing with it in reality.”
            Well gee…if it’s a minority medical condition then by definition, it is ABNORMAL.

            “To be clear… my “opinion” of it would also mean nothing. It’s about the distinction between facts and emotional opinions.”
            You seem to be the one taking this emotionally. @_@

            “I added my having competed mostly to illustrate that I am not speaking merely from medical fact but as someone who is amply familiar with the somewhat arbitrary lines drawn around competition groupings.”
            So you admit that you are in fact advocating your opinion…well I don’t know where that leaves us. Why are you so vicious about your opinion if you admit that neither of ours matters?

          • SCUBAsabre

            I didn’t preach anything much less politics. I demonstrated that your attempt at logic was as rationale as an anti-vaxer or anti-cancer treatment position. I demonstrated that this type of decision making wasn’t a Left or Right political issue but one of the same lack of logic.

            QUOTE where I “preached” anything political. I’ll wait……HINT: You can’t.

            Once again being in a minority does not render it abnormal. You once again assume a binary exists that does not. Humans exist on a spectrum of most every physiological factor. We don’t have the space for me to get into human biology, physiolgical conditions, Immunology, and a list of others. Your effort to over simplify and because your chosen religious belief oversimplifes you expect the human race to conform to your assertions that are social constructs not biological or physiological realities. FYI.. repeating that two words that are not synonyms are synonyms doesn’t render them so: Abnormal is not equal to minority no matter how many times you repeat it.

            Where have I once expressed an emotional premise or assertion? Quote me… I’lll wait. HINT: You can’t.

            I love it… Whataboutism combined with an effort to gaslight rather than stay on topic. Ok… be clear, you can run down all the arbitrary related but not relevant to the issues ideas you like but it won’t help your case. I didn’t say I didn’t have an opinion, I said I didn’t have emotionally driven opinions on medical realities as they are irrelevant so your effort at “gotcha” was a swing and a miss. As a result, I am not surprised by your @_@ since basic logic seems to evade you.

            NOTE: You didn’t stay on topic or reply with any substance to anything in my post. You are ill informed and rather than get informed you just keep ramroding your belief in a binary system that has never actually been binary. I get it, it’s much like the Santa Clause, Toothfairy and Easter Bunny mythology people like to believe. It’s a clean story but none are actually realities much like your opinions on biological and human physiological conditions for which you don’t understand and choose to pretend are some anomolly, life choice or philosophy.

          • newenglandsun

            Shut up, woman.

          • SCUBAsabre

            LOL… That’s all you got??? Telling me to “shut up“… some Christian values you got there.

          • newenglandsun

            I’ve been screamed at by you enough. I had a lot more obviously non-Christian things to add but refrained due to my self-control.

          • SCUBAsabre

            Hmmm so in your fragility, someone pointing out errors in your attempt at logic mixed with your emotional opinion is “screaming at you“? Now that is really funny…. sad too.

            You must either be very young (12ish maybe) or very immature. That’s a response I would expect from one of my kids not from an adult supposedly coming from a Conservative ideology.

            More likely to the point, you felt something you didn’t like when faced with facts and information. You had no way to back up what you had already asserted and how. Then you lacked the grace and the humility to own where you were ill informed and moreover unable to let yourself recognize what you don’t know, don’t understand or even to say… perhaps I don’t know or should refrain from judgement. Oh wait, you define self-control as not spewing a bunch of ad homenim attacks rather than what it actually means. Got it… perhaps you should consult a dictionary with regard to self-control, this isn’t the defintion. You can add that phrase to the words abnormal and minority since you also conflate and misuse those.

          • newenglandsun

            You’re not really making any points. You went on a rant comparing me to anti-vaxxers and calling anti-vaxxers “stupid” which is simply insulting considering that the current usage of that term would have me labeled an “anti-vaxxer”.

            I wasn’t the one who made gender binary–God did.

          • SCUBAsabre

            LOLOL now you lie in an effort to pretend I did something I didn’t? That’s rich… Never once did I call anyone “stupid”. The first use of that word is your post just now. Immaturity again????

            Quote me please… where did I call anyone stupid?? I’ll wait. HINT: You can’t becaus it didn’t happen.

            I know it’s hard for you to distinguish between factual premises within a discussion and what you do in place of it which does qualify as a rant so far here. RANT – meaning off topic and unrelated nonsense punctuated with ad homenim attacks when you don’t undersand or are too lazy to educate yourself. AGAIN… your projection of your behavior doesn’t actually render mine. Just like my boys when they were children, no matter how much you stomp your foot or repeat it that won’t make it reality.

            Your rationale to reject the medical relatiies in favor of your slective and chosen belief is founded in the same irrationallity as anti-vaxers and anti-Cancer med believes. The fact that you share the same inability to reason must be hard to accept. When my boys were young they struggled with this too. You’ll eventually either grow-up (if you are actually 12) or hopefully mature such that you are able to own your own short comings in knowledge so you can do something about it. You don’t learn what you don’t acknowledge that you don’t understand.

            Let me guess, in your mind you are being “screamed at again” becuase you don’t like how it feels to be called on the carpet for what you actually write and say? (rhetorical) Repeating your lazy claim that “god” made binary is as laughable as it is juvenille. I refer you back to what I wrote earlier as it covers this on point already, your choice to ignore it not withstanding. Go learn about all those areas I referred to and some others that you will naturally find if you bother to read anything medical about genetic and hormonal about minority conditions.

            My guess is you just want confirmation of your uneducated bias so you stick your head in the sand and claim the societal binary constructs was somehow created by “god” rather than society as if that is all it takes to prove your point in your mind only. Yawn…

          • newenglandsun

            You called “anti-vaxxers” stupid. I am not one, hardly any one is, however, I am well aware how people construe that term would have me be labeled an “anti-vaxxer”.

          • SCUBAsabre

            No, I did not call anyone “stupid”. You are the only one that has used this word.

            QUOTE ME!!!! I’ll wait… .HINT: You still can’t.

            So not only do you struggle with basic reasoning and logic while rejecting medical realities (you, anti-vaxxers and anti-cancer med crowd all have this in common), now you just make stuff up when you don’t have substantive things to say.

          • newenglandsun

            “The fact that they are medically proven effective is all that matters. You and the Anti-vaxer crowd seem to overlap here in that your selective ignorance fuels your “opinion” on a medical condition.”
            How is calling anti-vaxxers “ignorant” not declaring that I am stupid? Which I am neither ignorant nor stupid. Of course, I am not in fact, anti-vaccination–only under the way the word is thrown out as a rhetorical comment am I, but whatever. It really just proves your own ignorance that you would even conceivably think people who want lower mercury levels in vaccines are “anti-vaccination”.

          • SCUBAsabre

            Pull out that dictionary again…. look up ignorace. Here… let me help you:

            ig·no·rance
            /ˈiɡnərəns/
            noun
            lack of knowledge or information.
            “he acted in ignorance of basic procedures”
            synonyms: incomprehension, unawareness, unconsciousness, inexperience, innocence; More

            Once again you choose to believe that two words are synonyms so poof… they must be. NOT! Look up stupid which is your word and look up ignorant (my word). Not the same.

            You remain just as medically ignorant as anti-vaxxers and anti-cancer medication groups with regard to the minority conditions already referenced in this thread. What all three of you have in common includes poor logic and reasoning in your opinion making on these topics. Your emotional rant here which conflates words and meanings with your feelings has no relevance to reality. Once again READ rather than project. You might even learn something.

          • newenglandsun

            “Ignorant” and “stupid” are the same.

            As mentioned, there is really no such thing as an anti-vaxxer though I would be accused of that falsely. It is not ignorance. Jill Stein once made this comment about vaccines–
            “Vaccines in general have made a huge contribution to public health. Reducing or eliminating devastating diseases like smallpox and polio. In Canada, where I happen to have some numbers, hundreds of annual death from measles and whooping cough were eliminated after vaccines were introduced. Still, vaccines should be treated like any medical procedure — each one needs to be tested and regulated by parties that do not have a financial interest in them. In an age when industry lobbyists and CEOs are routinely appointed to key regulatory positions through the notorious revolving door, its no wonder many Americans don’t trust the FDA to be an unbiased source of sound advice.”

            That earned her the title “anti-vaxxer” but it is not anti-vaccination. Stein is a doctor.

            I have never relegated to “whataboutism”. You have accused me of ignorance numerous times and have been unable to demonstrate this other than through mere emotional rhetoric.

          • SCUBAsabre

            FACT: The words stupid and ignorant are not synonyms. Look them up. If you are too lazy, it doesn’t render them the same just cuz you feel it. Your effort to repeat words that are not the same as the same earlier in this exchange didn’t work either. Your choice to double-down on innaccurate statements rather than educate yourself will keep you ignorant.

            Your rant on anti-vaxxers is WHATABOUTISM by defnition since it’s not the topic. It remains irrelvant to the topic of this exchange. I refer you back to my original posts since you didn’t actually read them. No matter how many times you do this I will not indulge your effort to go off topic. The erroneous logic and selective medical and scientific denials of anti-vaxxers and anti-cancer medication opinions is the same basis as your opinions for Chromosomal and Hormone based medical conditions (I refer you back to above).

            You remain ignorant of the chromosomal and hormone science related to the topic and you choose to stay that way. Your “feelings” about your ignornace is as irrelvant as your effort to use societal binary designations as the logic base for your opinion regarding the minority medical conditions in this article.

          • newenglandsun

            Oh look…Google shows:
            “stupid”
            1. having or showing a great lack of intelligence or common sense.
            “I was stupid enough to think she was perfect”
            synonyms: unintelligent, IGNORANT, dense, brainless, mindless, foolish, dull-witted, dull, slow-witted, witless, slow, dunce-like, simpleminded, empty-headed, vacuous, vapid, halfwitted, idiotic, moronic, imbecilic, imbecile, obtuse, doltish;
            (Caps mine–for emphasis)

            How is my anti-vaxxer comment an example of “whataboutism”? YOU’RE the one who brought it up! And I am not anti-vaxxer. I have been ACCUSED of anti-vaxxer but am about as anti-vaxxer as Trump, Stein, and Kennedy, Jr. are. No, the two are not the same. In terms of gender, we are dealing with revealed anthropological theological science and with medications, we are dealing with technological science. God created them male and female which means a chromosomal and hormonal abnormality is an ABNORMALITY.

            These “societal binary designations” you speak of are a revealed manner. God created them male and female. Are you unaware of this?

          • SCUBAsabre

            Allow me to step you thorugh this young one… You are ignorant of all that I called out specifically (reread). No need to keep repeating over and over. Lack of intelligence (stupid) is not the same as lack of knowledge or understanding(ignorance). I said pull out a dictionary and you didn’t. Google is a search engine, not a dictionary.

            I brought up your inability to reason, track in logic and parse emotional feelings from medical facts re the minority conditions here as the same as anti-vaxxers and anti-cancer medication people. That remains proven by your posts. You want to take the conversation down some discussion of anti-vaxxer beliefs, etc. rather than your inability to reason, track in logic and parse emotional feelings from medical facts re the minority conditions. That is whataobutism.

            The best part is your choice to employ whataboutism even in this last post makes my point rather than yours. LOL You may be right, you may be just as stupid as you feel you are in addition to the ignorance you have displayed here. I have no idea about your intellectual capacity. I’ll leave that to you since you are the only one asserting you are stupid in this excahnge.

            As for the society binary designations that are such warm fuzzies for you, if only human physiology, immunology, chormosonal conditions, hormone conditions, etc. would just conform to your narrow wishful thinking from the realities of how humans actually occur on this planet, all would be right in your world. Minority chromosonal conditions and hormone conditions won’t disappear or pretend not to exist so you can “feel” good in your societal binary. Your ignorant opinion related to medical conditions is irrelvant and will remain irrelevant. Humans will continue to display all kinds of conditions for which you choose to remain ignorant. So long as you continue this path, you will remain just as ignorant but it will be completely by your choosing. Funny… it will have zero effect on medical or scientific reality or the rest of the world.

        • D.M.S.

          Semenya should be thrown out of women’s sports and everyone like ‘ him ‘.

          • Chuck Johnson

            The legal decision says that Semenya can’t compete with the women now.

          • D.M.S.

            All trans-women should only compete with other trans-women always.

          • SCUBAsabre

            based on what? Let’s hear your case for why this is what you assert?

          • Anonymous

            She ain’t trans though. She’s intersex. Transgender and intersex are different things.

          • D.M.S.

            Transgender is mental illness. Intersex is because of sin.

          • D.M.S.

            Where does it state that in the article?
            But again only transpeople should compete against each other in sports for an equal playing field.

          • Anonymous

            It doesn’t but anyone familiar with Semenya would know she’s intersex and not trans. She was always raised as girl and no one (not even doctors or her parents) knew she wasn’t a normal girl until the olympic gender testing. She really shouldn’t be competing against trans people as she isn’t trans. She shouldn’t be competing against all intersex people either as some intersex conditions are estrogen dominant. Dealing with trans people is easier than intersex.

          • D.M.S.

            Sin has brought all of us these maladies.
            Soon they will be gone.

          • D.M.S.

            Then it shouldn’t compete in any sports. Until it’s determined what ‘ it ‘ is more male or more female.
            We can do that in today’s society.

          • Anonymous

            Gender tests. Olympics already tried that and it isn’t perfect. Some people are chimeric (having dna in some cells that is XY when the rest of their DNA is XX) thus rendering these tests not 100% percent accurate. Plus you have the true hermaphrodites that make up that make this even tougher. It’s easier to just stop having the Olympics.

          • D.M.S.

            God/Jesus is perfect.
            All the world has to do is stop sinning and we won’t have these kinds of people.

          • Anonymous

            Wrong. We will have these type of people till the world ends. People will be born NOT PERFECT until then. We will sin until then. Even if we stop sinning we will STILL be sinners till we either die or a rapture happens because we were born in sin due to original sin.

          • D.M.S.

            We have these kinds of people because of all the sins of this world.
            And the tornadoes, storms, earthquakes, diseases, throughout this world. The more sins that are committed each day the more catastrophes that plague this earth physically and mentally to all. Including Christians.
            Until Christ return.

          • Anonymous

            You don’t seem to grasp sin versus original sin. Original sin we can’t do NOTHING about. Adam and Eve (the first and only humans who were ever perfect and without being born into sin nature, Jesus was perfect but still born into sin nature because he was fully human in addition to being fully God) sinned and thus you are still a sinner even if you NEVER sin. Jesus never sinned but the sin nature was still within Him due to the original sin He inherited through His human mother Mary. Those catastrophes are due to ORIGINAL SIN and not any sins you or I may commit on a daily basis. You are still a sinner and will be till the day you die. If you don’t admit you sin than you are a liar and God is not within you. If you are saved than Jesus covers your sin and acts as your lawyer before God. Many atheists would laugh at you as you don’t seem to understand the theology of Christianity. It grieves me when I realize that many atheists and unbelievers know and understand the Bible and the theology of the Christian faith better than those that claim to be my brothers and sisters in Christ.

          • D.M.S.

            There is really no reason to carry on this conversation anymore you aren’t capable of grasping what sin has done to this world that we live in.
            I’m not talking at all about our our salvation in Christ Jesus.
            I’m talking about all of the diseases and atrocities that have plagued the human race in the past few hundred years.
            And they’ll be on the rise more and more until our Lord Christ Jesus returns.
            Which more than likely will happen before 2100 AD.
            Peace

          • D.M.S.

            And you can’t grasp the reality of what sin causes to the whole world.

          • Anonymous

            I do but it’s all the result of original sin and not necessarily current sin. Some current sins are realitivly harmless in the here and now but all sin is harmful in ETERNITY as that’s when the unsaved will be cast to the lake of fire.

          • D.M.S.

            Why is it that you don’t believe that the things going on in this world today 2019 has anything to do with past and presents sins?

            Is the world getting any better?
            Worse?

            The book of Revelation should be telling us Christians explicitly about the wrath to come from God/Jesus because of Sin.
            Wouldn’t you agree?

          • Anonymous

            It isn’t sin but the lack of true repentance and restitution that God grows tired of. People truly sorry, ashamed, and repentant will try not to sin. WHEN they do sin they will repentant, ask forgiveness, try to make things right through restitution when applicable, and try not to sin like that again. Eventually you sin less and sin differently than before but you still sin till you die.

            Things grow worse partially due to past sins not being dealt with. We have much blood and sin on our hands from those who came before. Not all current sin is harmful in the here and now but all is harmful in ETERNITY if not repented of. Impure thoughts not acted on or spoken to will still count (if it isn’t covered by the blood because we are saved) even if only God knows about them.

          • D.M.S.

            Remember what happened to the Israelites when they were captive for 70 years. Just because they didn’t follow what God told them to do every 7th year in crop rotation.
            There are consequences to our sins, including today.
            And the world that sins and doesn’t care if there’s God/Jesus or not.
            Pays a penalty for that defiance and we’re witnessing it today.

          • D.M.S.

            Are you sure it isn’t because of current sins? And Or our past sins since Christ Jesus is resurrected?
            Can you prove your theory?

          • D.M.S.

            Yes we will. But sin brought them here in the first place..
            Sin has caused all of the lgbtq.

          • Anonymous

            ORIGINAL SIN not the sin people commit ever day. Learn your theology or atheists and unbelievers will make a fool of you. Get your theology straight or risk Satan deceiving you. You are a SINNER. You will be a SINNER till you die or are taken up into heaven. If you claim to be without sin you call God a liar. If you ain’t a sinner than Jesus came for nothing. You need to confess your sins and ask daily for God to reveal any unclean ways you may have. You lack compassion for lgbtq, intersex (who may or may not identify or ally with the lgbtq community), unsaved, and sinners. This is a sign that your love has become flat and not like God’s love. You are a SINNER even if you accept the gift of salvation that covers the cost of the wages of sin. You will still sin even when you try not to. Grow some Godly compassion and grow your love. Many people will be in heaven who were terrible sinners and many people who didn’t sin much will be in the lake of fire. Have you accepted Jesus as Savior and Lord is all that will matter on judgement day.

          • D.M.S.

            Why would I possibly care if people try to make a fool of me.
            We’re told that in scripture that is exactly what are enemies such as you will do and try and do to shut us Christians up.
            You’ll even get violent to shut us Christians down.

          • D.M.S.

            Does God create us?
            Since God/Jesus creates us. Then why are we not born perfect?
            Sin is why?

          • D.M.S.

            I don’t care.
            Sin is why these things are happening.

    • Chuck Johnson

      Christy has let general principles of fairness and non-discrimination take precedence over the facts here.
      She is motivated by sentiment.
      More than sentiment is needed for this legal decision.

  • customartist

    The right now is not the future. The most recent voting percentages, for anyone who may have not done the math for themselves, only went anti-LGBT by 53%. The UMC, like the rest of society, too is evolving, and these percentages will do a turnaround. Many have proposed the need to leave and I can understand why. However, I would propose that the church proportions will change, and soon, and that the better course of action would be to stay in where liberals can work for change. And when it does change, what is now the conservative majority will become the minority. And when that happens it is the conservatives who will get to learn what it is like to be in a minority, a much needed lesson, with others setting the rules, and telling them how to do this and that in THEIR lives – and it will also be they who will wrangle over whether to leave the church or not. *DO NOT give up the ship!

    • D.M.S.

      I’ll still be with the 1% minority of conservative Christians that are for God/Jesus.
      When you Godless sinful lgbtq, adulterers and fornicators are the 99% majority against God/Jesus.

      • customartist

        “Jesus will never reject you” – John 6:37.
        Why it is that humans choose to do that which Jesus himself would not do is both perplexing and anti-Christlike.

        • D.M.S.

          Romans 1:26-32.
          Mathew 10:22.
          Scripture even states that drunkards will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
          The sexually immoral hasn’t got even a chance, if a drunkard can’t get in to the kingdom of God.

        • D.M.S.

          John 6:37 is not absolute.

        • D.M.S.

          Is John 6:37 stating that we Christians can do anything that we want and still be saved?

        • D.M.S.

          It’s right there in the book of Romans. Who will ‘ NOT ‘ make it into the king of GOD.
          John 6:37. Doesn’t say that. You left a large part out.
          Jesus said; All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the ones who come to Me I will by no mean cast out.
          What does it mean to come to Christ?
          Trying to live Christ like?
          Go to Christ Jesus, but keep trying to sin everyday?

          What does it mean to come to Christ Jesus?

  • Ivan T. Errible

    There is no god; therefore religion is a waste of time, energy, and trouble.
    Of course it doesn’t have a future-your wish to have your cake (be “diverse” with non-developed world majorities) and eat it (be “progressive” and not hate gays) were always going to crash at some point. That you’re surprised at it, even at this late date, shows how completely naive and self-deluding you are.

    • SCUBAsabre

      Ivan – You are a troll. Before you go there, I am an Atheist so this has nothing to do with the issue of faith vs. non-believer content. This has to do with your hostile and ad homenim attack on Vincent. Stop. Make your case with substance or you are just a Troll looking to provoke hostile responses so you can confirm a bigoted bias about people.

      Talk about the ideas… the content not the people and you might demonstrate you have a verifieable opinion vs. an emotional judgement which is all you’ve demonstrated in the threads I’ve seen you comment on so far.

  • Vincent Owen Gonzalez

    I was raised in the UMC. My mother had been a missionary for the UMC. In college I became a Southern Baptist and it was at the time of the “conservative resurgence/takeover.” I served in full time ministry for more than 20 years dueunf a time when many faithful Christians were forced out. At the age of 48 I left the SBC and came out as a gay man. I think it’s a tragedy to see the same thing happen to the UMC. My husband and I now serve as deacons in our local PC USA congregation. Our church has open arms to all God’s children, LGBTQIA and yes, straight people too. I pray that the UMC will see the error of their way and change before it’s too late. However, if that does not happen the PC USA has open arms and welcome our Methodist neighbors.
    Rev. Vincent O. Gonzalez, Sr.