Eleven Things Muslims agree with Christians about concerning Jesus

Following my post yesterday, Did God have sex with Mary?, we have been having a nice conversation over Twitter about Jesus with some Muslims. It has been really pleasant to be able to converse without anger or bitterness with them about our similarities and differences.

Most of the following areas of agreement are initially drawn from the article I linked to in yesterdays post. If anyone wants to add to these please do so in the comments. Tomorrow I will post a similar article about things we disagree on about Jesus .

  1. That Jesus was a messenger of God  (Surah 2:136 and John 8:42)
  2. That Jesus is the Word of God (Surah 4:171 and John 1)
  3. That Jesus had a miraculous birth, born to the virgin Mary (see Surah 19:20 and Matthew 1:18-23)
  4. That Jesus promoted compassion and mercy (Surah 57:27 and Matthew 9:36)
  5. That Jesus healed the sick and raised the dead (Surah 3:49 and Luke 7)
  6. That Jesus performed miracles involving food. (Surah 5:112-115 and Matthew 15:32-38)
  7. That Jesus escaped death (we do, however, differ about how he did this)
  8. That Jesus ascended to heaven and is living there today  (Surah 3:55 and Acts 1)
  9. That Jesus will return to earth (Surah 43:61 and Acts 1)
  10. That Jesus mother should not be worshipped (Surah 5:116 and Luke 4:8)
  11. That the cross involved substitution (more of this tomorrow).

Note that items 7 -8 are not the view believed by every Muslim (more of this in my post Six Things Muslims and Christians disagree about concerning Jesus).

 

 

Jesus the Great Evangelist: a sermon on John 4
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About Adrian Warnock

Adrian Warnock is a medical doctor, and a writer. Since 1995 he has been a member of Jubilee Church London which has sites in Enfield, Wood Green and Ilford. Adrian serves as part of Jubilee's leadership team alongside Tope Koleoso. Together they have written Hope Reborn - How to Become a Christian and Live for Jesus, published by Christian Focus. Adrian is also the author of Raised With Christ - How The Resurrection Changes Everything, published by Crossway. Read more about Adrian Warnock or connect with him on Twitter, Facebook or Google+.

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  • http://evidentgospel.blogspot.com/ Evident Gospel

    Adrian, let’s not be deceived by their agreements, like I commented on twitter, for instance number 7 in your post it is core of our faith, if Jesus never died (like they say) we are not saved, that was a fight in first centuries and it is today when it comes to Islam. But glory to God for His Son, Jesus who died for our sins. Islam has no sacrifice, has no lamb, has no forgiveness of sins. Some of them are good, moral, but nobody can buy salvation from God through good deeds. Christianity and Islam are irreconcilably, we may have some common things but no way we can reconciled on the basis of the Person of Jesus, because what Koran claims about Him.

    • http://adrianwarnock.com/ Adrian Warnock

      Please be clear, I am NOT saying that Muslims agree with us on everything about Jesus and indeed there is a second post that outlines the KEY differences. The Muslim religion has no notion of a sacrifice for sins. And clearly if the believed the same as we do about Jesus they would follow him!

      • YS

        Muslims believe in the Gospel of Jesus and no muslim is a muslim if he did not believe jesus to be one of the mightiest prophets sent down to mankind. Unfortunetly christinaty has a probkem, the trinity concept has now been rejected by clerics worldwide. So now we must think about the fundamental diffence…jesus never claims to be god and never ever requests his followers to worship him. This is irrefutable. There is not a single verse in the bible to back this.

        • John Wolf

          “I and the Father are ONE” < There's a verse for you

          Jesus is the saviour, the ONLY way, even Jesus said he's the TRUTH, the WAY and the LIFE.

          I BEG you to PLEASE turn to Jesus so you may be saved

          • Guest

            LET THE WORLD SAYS ANYTHING, ALL MY MUSLIM BROTHERS JESUS CHRIST IS THE LORD, WHO IS THE WAY THE TRUTH THE LIFE, WAY TO HEAVEN… WHO HEALED THE LEPERS, BLINDS, PARALYSIS, MADE ROSE (ALIVE) THE LAZARUS AT LAZARUS THIRD DAY OF HIS DEATH. JESUS GAVE THE CHRISTIANS AUTHORITY TO PREACH THE GOSPEL OF GOD, HEALED THE SUFFERERS, CAST DEVIL..IN JESUS NAME…..SO, WE CHRISTIAN ARE NOT AN ORDINARY BELIEVERS ..BUT THE PEOPLE WHOM GOD GAVE THIS HUGE AUTHORITY..
            AND BIBLES TEACHES US LOVE YOUR ENEMY, WHEN YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY GIVE HIM FOOD, WHEN THIRSTY GIVE HIM WATER.

            DO UR RELIGION TEACHES U..AND DO U HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO HEAL THE DISEASES JUST WITH THE WORD OF GOD AND PRAYER.

            IN JESUS NAME

            SO, U FRNDS 2 BELIEVE IN JESUS AND HAVE ETERNAL LIFE BE SAVED..

          • Inservio Letum

            TL;DR : TOO LOUD; DIDN’T READ

          • Yousaf Tariq

            dude muslims believe in all the miracle of jesus, we just believe that he was people to obey god, and do not think of him as a god..

          • Inservio Letum

            Verse? You’re quoting a storybook to convince people that storybook is fact? What do you do when you get a ticket from the police? Write “DEMONSTRATION COPY, NO CHARGES DUE” and then claim the ticket actually IS a demo copy???

          • Yousaf Tariq

            So let me get this clear, you people do believe in god but you say to turn to jesus to be saved and not, turn to god to be saved

        • Pete Llloyd

          YS, I suggest you try reading the Gospel of John so will you may obtain a better understanding of what Christians believe and why.

          We believe that Jesus is the Son of God. He tells us that throughout the Gospel, that he is the Son sent from the Father, to save all of us, through his death and resurrection. He is more than just a prophet, he is our Savior. See John Chapter 3, 16:21.

          If you are short on time and can’t read all of John then also read Chapter 1, 1:34, then Chapter 3, 31:36, then Chapter 5, 19:30, then 6, 22:65 and finally Chapter 14.

          Your comment about the Holy Trinity is totally false as this is fundamental to our Christian faith, always has been, always will be. Chapter 14 explains this fully.

          Peace be with you!

    • Yousaf Tariq

      So according to you, if there is no sacrifice, we are basically screwed. There is a system of accountability in Islam. If you are a muslim and you commit a sin, you have to pray to God for the forgiveness of the sin or you will get punishment for the sin at the day of judgement before entering heaven. Dude just thinking out loud but why did god create us in the first place if we will all just go to hell and a prophet has to come to sacrifice himself for our forgiveness, god gave us a free will so that we follow him because it is the right thing to do and not that we follow him cuz we are programmed to do so, like angels

  • Deborah Anderson

    I say this. Muslims hate dogs and cats.But God says love all he had created. Don’t believe the switch I believe he died on the cross. In there Quran says similar to born to death and he rise. Um he died and resurrected! Pork eating is only to certain Muslims. Quran was wrote by Mohammed after death of Jesus as of other today religions. Mohammed didn’t like dogs or cats nor eating pork. Then Mohammed didn’t witness the crucifixion of Jesus so he does not know if he died on the cross The Quran is a man made Bible

    • hosam

      I’m Muslim and i had dogs and cats, please prove what you claiming, do more reading about islam , you are creating hate cycle by writing non true things, you will not find even one Muslim cursing jesus, but a lot of chrsitain curse prophet mohmad, how come we have pet care store and hospitals for pet in every Muslim country if Muslim hate cat and dogs??????

      • John Wolf

        Maybe it’s because we know he was 1) a pedophile (as written in the hadiths) 2) a liar (as proven through the Qur’an) 3) A satan deceived pseudo-prophet (Which is obvious since allah apparently deceived the whole world by “faking/switching” Jesus to have him not die on the cross.

        Are you aware that your pseudo-god allah is written to be proud regarding his deception? Did you know that there is another who has been proud to be the great deceiver of man?

        That being is SATAN.

        REPENT AND TURN AWAY FROM YOUR SATAN-INSPIRED RELIGION AND TURN TO JESUS FOR HE IS THE ONLY WAY TO SALVATION!!!

        • Inservio Letum

          Damn dude, you’re one VERY brave twelve year old!
          How do you get out of bed in the morning? How do you open closets? Do you go to the bathroom with a flashlight at night? Does your shadow scare you as well?

          • John Wolf

            If you get pleasure from your comments then you clearly have more issues than you claim I do.

          • Inservio Letum

            BREAKING NEWS : sarcasm recently revealed by preeminent neurobiologist John Wolf to be early symptom of mental disorders!

        • Yousaf Tariq

          Can you please show me the Hadis showing that he was a pedophile. Furthermore if Jesus was given all those prophetic signs but God including curing leprosy (forgive the sarcastic statement but for the record, Muslims do believe in all the miracles of Jesus) how can you say that the same God couldn’t prevent him from dying. and u r calling him a lier cuz according to you he wrote the Quran. So you are saying that an illiterate man (Muhammad pbuh) wrote such a beautiful book that even the great poets of Arabia were shocked. Furthermore how could have he given detail about the past Prophets, keeping in mind that he couldn’t even have read the Bible (which wasn’t even available in Arabia) as he was illiterate

    • Inservio Letum

      Torah Koran Bible Grimm and Twilight are all storybooks, invented by man, disseminated almost exclusively among man, and occupied almost exclusively with man. See a pattern yet?

      • Yousaf Tariq

        Yeah cuz the world just automatically came into existence one day

        • Inservio Letum

          Age of solar system is 4.6 billion years.
          Age of earth is 4.54 billion years.
          Number of days per earth year is 365.25.
          60,000,000 * 365.25 = 21,915,000,000.
          So no, not *one* day, but over the span of just over 21,9 billion days. Just because you don’t understand the science, is not a valid reason to just fill in the blanks with whatever bedtime story makes you feel better.

          • Yousaf Tariq

            Well whatever helps you sleep at night, this I guarantee you the divine power that made the universe is not atoms.

          • Inservio Letum

            Nobody says atoms are a power to begin with, let alone a divine one. The latter ostensibly because there is no such thing as divinity, but I digress.
            If I may be so bold as to operate on the assumption that you concede that my math is correct, then the result is demonstrably *not* based on what does or does not help (the expression is “whatever helps you sleep”, not make) me sleep at night, although I do admit math can be exhausting and as such indeed *make* me sleep, lolololol.

          • Yousaf Tariq

            Ah damn you got me there lol. Regardless of that, wow you must be really fun at parties lol

          • Inservio Letum

            I don’t really do parties, I don’t like crowds; but thank you just the same! I do get a lot of positive feedback from clients, which is always nice.

          • Yousaf Tariq

            You are welcome, im always happy to look out for a fellow brother.

    • Yousaf Tariq

      haha, i turned on my laptop today to correct some corrupted beliefs, this is an easy one:
      1. Muslims love all animals. There’s even an event on which a prostitute was forgiven cuz she gave water to a dying dog. This belief is corrupted due to people misinterpreting when Prophet said “kill the dogs” that only extended to rabid dogs who hurt people.
      2. If Jesus was given all those prophetic signs but God including curing leprosy (forgive the sarcastic statement but for the record, Muslims do believe in all the miracles of Jesus) how can you say that the same God couldn’t prevent him from dying.
      3. Pork eating is forbidden for every Muslim as it is regarded as unclean by Quran, those who eat it are committing a great sin. Pork can only be eaten when there is no alternative.
      4. So you are saying that an illiterate man (Muhammad pbuh) wrote such a beautiful book that even the great poets of Arabia were shocked. Furthermore how could have he given detail about the past Prophets, keeping in mind that he couldn’t even have read the Bible (which wasn’t even available in Arabia) as he was illiterate

  • Deborah Anderson

    Mohammed was not born to a virgin he not die and resurrected. He was buried in the grave as all others after Jesus. Muslims need to ask God in a prayer To show the truth to this…God is most powerful he grant u what u want to seek…The truth! Many stories I read about Muslims converting to Christians cause of visions and dreams..

    • Inservio Letum

      God give you what u seek if u seek imaginary friend. People converting from one imaginary friend to another would seem to cause visions, because you don’t accept eachother’s imaginary friends as real to the observer. You can tell a child whatever you like, but his imaginary friend is still going to be real to him or her.

      • Yousaf Tariq

        dude u must be an atheist, how cute

        • Inservio Letum

          What a novel way to misspell atheist, never seen that one before. And naturally I’m an atheist; I was educated beyond the age of ten and therefore do not believe in the tooth fairy, santa claus, thor, jupiter, ancestral spirits, allah, anubis or ganesh. Bedtime stories used to scare the inane and the young hold no sway over the mind of an educated intelligent adult.

          • Yousaf Tariq

            Forgive me, for I am not good with spellings. Regardless of that, entertain me, u believe that the world just automatically came into existence one day. Furthermore ur belief is that we there is no hereafter, no accountability. Hypothetically if you are correct, what will you get, that’s right nothing as u will be dead. But if there is a God then eternity in hell will be ur reward, congrats. So it’s better for you to believe, for u may get a chance to enter heaven, however slim that chance may be according to u.

          • Inservio Letum

            Actually no, religions are the only theory where things just magically appear because an invisible man with magic powers wants them to. Just because you don’t understand the science, is not a reason to fill in the blanks with whatever bedtime story makes you feel better.
            Everything that is, came together gradually over millions and millions of years, atom by atom, through the interactions of mass and energy under the influence of the fundamental forces.

            Now then, seperate from that is your assertion that life needs to have eternal reward or eternal punishment in order to be valid, and that society has no system of accountability in place.
            I suggest you try killing or robbing someone, then telling everyone what you did. If your theory is right, nobody will be angry, nobody will punish you, until you die. Then when your body is dead and you cannot feel anything anymore, the magic invisible man will set you on fire for all eternity because he loves you.

            The rational intelligent adult, however, realises that life has a beginning and an end, and that everyone is responsable for their own choices. If you behave in ways that society says are wrong, then society will punish you. Every law and every punishment is agreed upon democratically, and implemented however the society’s political doctrine dictates. There is no infinite punishment, and no infinite reward, just as there are no infinite actions or infinite crimes. There is no magic place after your body dies, you just don’t exist anymore, the same way you didn’t exist before your parents made you.

            You suggesting I should believe is in itself nonsense, because you cannot *choose* to believe; belief is by nature a state of conviction. Nonetheless, you telling me I should believe “just in case there is a heaven” is called Pascal’s Wager.
            If I tell you that you are now my property, but you can still do and think whatever you want as long as you always admit you are my property, would you accept that? Rational educated intelligent adults would not.
            Humans are not property, humans are free. Choosing to accept the rule of a magic invisible man is choosing to accept slavery. That is why I will not ‘choose’ to believe in heaven, hell, god, or gods, because I am not a slave.

          • Yousaf Tariq

            What a novel way to misspell responsible, I’ve never seen that one before. Firstly so u r saying that no power controls us, no man was made, we just evolved from mere animals, and how were animals made? Face it, from which ever way you look at it, there is a divine power controlling the universe and this I can promise you, that divine power is not atoms.
            So we die and just go out of existence, then what’s the purpose of being born in the first place? You talk about that we are to receive a punishment in the afterlife and so the society has to not punish anyone, but our God commands us that if punishment for a sin has been taken in our lifetime, we are no longer accountable for that sin, our God commands us that 100 stripes for adultery, life for life, eye for eye. But if a person conceals his sin and does not let the eyes of mortals witness the act, remember that God sees everything, you shall not escape from justice and hence at the day of judgement, there will be no injustice.
            I repeat again, we were not even made before we were born, if that’s the state we will enter after dying, then what’s the point of being born on the first place. Furthermore entertain me, how can an illiterate person (Muhammed pbuh) write a book containing scientific elements that are being proven today? The quran says: And we made from water every living thing. (21:30) Modern theories support the idea of the origin of life from water. If you choose to remain blind and choose to reject faith, who am I to guard you to the right path.

          • Inservio Letum

            Ah, mes excuses, good catch. Responsable is the french spelling, indeed.
            Having a slightly harder time processing the deluded arrogance of the phrase “mere animals”, though. I cannot for the life of me, work out how on EARTH you can, as a HUMAN of all species, consider animals “mere”.
            Can you boast the swim speed of the mako shark, the teeth of the hyena, or the stomach of a vulture? Can you match the insulation of polar bear fur, the eyesight of the bald eagle, or the strength of the african elephant? Can you dive to hundreds of meters in water, or fly through the air, or stand up and run within an hour of being born? Pretty much every species on this planet has adapted to their existence, and holds their own in their environment, except one. Homo Sapiens. You.
            And you consider THEM mere? Humans are the single WORST adapted species on the planet, good for literally nothing but breeding, resource consumption, and disregarding their biome. Humans are, in a word, a virus.
            “Mere animals”…. pfff. 99% of the species on this planet have already gone extinct and somehow you think your species is special. I’d laugh if it wasn’t so deeply tragic and disturbing how many humans share your deluded world view.

            But I digress. On to your assertion that EVERY way one looks at it (apparently you can read the minds of over seven billion humans, as you claim to know EVERY way there is to look at this) there has to be a magic invisible man watching and influencing every single thing, happening anywhere, all the time, in this entire universe. Besides illustrating that you don’t fully grasp how quantum mechanics works, it seems you do not fully appreciate the sheer scope of existence, and how cartoonishly insignificant and meaningless the life of one earth-bound homo sapiens, really is.

            I would STRONGLY recommend you watch the recent series Cosmos, but for the moment let me walk you through the numbers of just how big existence is :
            Homo Sapiens is one species. One among almost nine million others, and that’s only counting the species we know about, and that are currently alive on our planet.
            Earth, in turn, is only one planet out of ten (yes, I’m counting Pluto and Ceres; they are on the verge of reclassification), orbiting one star out of approximately 300 billion in the Milky Way galaxy.
            The Milky Way, in turn, is only one galaxy out of approximately 100 billion, and that’s only counting the galaxies we can see. All the other galaxies in this universe are so far away, that light has not had enough time since the beginning of this universe, to reach us here on earth.

            Now put all that together.
            Do you honestly think ALL THAT was made in SIX DAYS?! That some invisible man in the sky built ALL of that, just to decorate the sky of ONE planet for two humans and a talking snake? Really???

            Moving on, we come to the amusing notion of “purpose”. Yet again the self-aggrandising nature of man shines through with clueless arrogance.
            What is the purpose of grass? What is the purpose of earth? What is the purpose of ANYTHING? Whether you’re having a brain moment and have to actually think, or you simply blurt out whatever comes to mind, I hate to dissappoint you. THere is no purpose. The notion of purpose is an invention of man because the scope of existence is scary, and purpose makes it less scary. As you may have seen me mention before, however, just because you do not understand, is not a valid reason to fill in the blanks with whatever bedtime story makes you feel better.

            Up next, a gruesome misstatement of my explanation of societal accountability. I was saying that the only accountability is to the society we live in, not that society is not allowed to hold us accountable. I suggested that if you felt the only accountability was to your magic invisible friend in the sky, you should test it out on your society and see if they indeed do not punish you, and instead wait for the magic invisible man in the sky to punish you after you are dead. You may have misunderstood my intention.

            Moving on, we come to Hammurabic Law. An eye for an eye, as you put it. I’m afraid that this too, is a lack of perception of scope on your part.
            As an exercise, try to imagine what happens with an eye for an eye. A murder, is punished with another murder. Which is avenged with another murder. Which is punished with another murder. Which is avenged with another murder. Which is punished with another murder. Which is avenged with another murder. Which is punished with another murder.
            … do you see the problem here?

            Next up the illiterate man. Perhaps I can best address this by pointing you to the definition of illiterate, because you seem to be impressed by an illiterate man not being illiterate. I’m sure you can see how that would be at the very least funny, if not flat-out preposterous.
            Beyond that, ayah 21:30 is often quoted as being proof of scientific knowledge, but does in fact not strictly speaking mean that and ONLY that, excluding any and all other meanings. As with so much of the Koran, the wording is deliberately vague and artful. So much so, in fact, that there is a seperate social class within the religion, tasked and exclusively trusted with, the interpretation of the texts’ meaning. Many of these men abuse their position, and that is where extremist muslims come from, despite the vast majority being law-abiding citizens.

            Once again, nobody can *choose* to reject faith; you either have it or you don’t. Pretending to have faith is not faith, any more than pretending to believe gravity doesn’t exist can make you fly.
            Also, guarding means to protect. You cannot guard someone somewhere, you meant guide.

          • Yousaf Tariq

            Well u r so full of yourself, wow. You are highly insulted when I say humans are servants but you readily accept the idea of us being animals. You know why we are better than animals, because we can think, we can talk, animals are only limited at fulfilling their basic needs. Furthermore please look at the houses of humans and then the habitats of animals, that’s how smart and evolved God has made us.
            Tell u what, I’ll give you an advice, kill urself. If humans are a virus then you may help start a movement. Furthermore life is cruel with many difficulties and since you don’t believe in God, ull just go out of existence, hence kill yourself. Furthermore God made the universe in 6 days because he can. There were millions of angels to please him but they had no free will and hence, no other choice. This has no link to the argument but parallel galaxies aren’t proven. Please if you have no purpose, kill yourself.
            So if I murder you and society hangs me, so will my family go on and kill your family. That is the most idiotic argument I’ve ever heard. So a man who hasn’t ever acquired knowledge, can write such a rhythmic and meaningful book, not possible my friend. Furthermore how can you explain that the companions of the prophet could feel him receiving a revelation, it’s a long thing to explain so search it on Google.
            In the end I would like to say that read the quran with translation, if you do not convert to Islam, then you clearly are on a strayed path. You do choose whether or not to believe, that I can guarantee you. Furthermore this debate is heading into a dead end. We both have strong mindsets towards religion, so if you do believe that atheism is the right religion, then let’s suspend the argument. Bye I wish you good luck in your future endeavors.

          • Inservio Letum

            My zeal was disproportionate, I concede, and for that you
            have my apologies. Full of myself, however, I am not. If anything I am proud of nature, rather than myself. I have always had a soft spot there, and sometimes I overreact when people treat it like something they can use and throw away like a paper cup. I ran into a hilarious metaphor for this a while ago on facebook, which suggested to anyone that felt money was more important than the environment, they should try holding their breath while they counted their money.

            Although murder, bullying, and other social crimes exist in the animal kingdom as well, no animal other than humans has made such a sport of it. Only humans have deliberately studied and perfected cruelty, destruction, and oppression. That is why I see animals as noble and in balance with their biome.
            Each of the animals I named, surpasses humans in the ways I specified. Your suggestion that humans are better because we have language and can think, although naturally true, is however likewise surpassed by animals : no human can communicate over hundreds of miles, but various species of whales can and do. And as for thinking, several species of shark are immune to alzheimer’s, and many species of octopus exhibit extraordinary intelligence without even having a brain.

            I’m not sure what led you to believe I was insulted at any point, but let me assure you that was and is, never the case. I enjoy in depth discussion and am more than adult enough to take criticism without throwing a fit, hahaha! Astonished, yes. Alarmed, yes. But the presumption of holding you accountable for my emotional state, is not how I was raised, so worry not, good sir!

            Although obviously open to interpretation, the next paragraph strikes me as rather pointedly inflammatory, if not flatout ad hominem. Whether or not that was your intent, I have a hard time believing you mean it literally. You strike me as more than intelligent enough to understand that killing yourself just because you discover life has no purpose, is incredibly selfish towards all the friends, family, colleagues, and clients that you emnotionally hurt by doing so. I hope we can agree on that.

            Now then, on to the substance. Life’s trials and tribulations are indeed unfortunate and indeed often unpleasant to varying degrees, but as with so much else : just because we do not understand, is not a valid reason to just fill in the blanks with whatever bedtime story makes us feel better. If you select something you feel has purpose, and take a step back in your mind, you may come to realise that 99% of abstract purpose, is in reality just an effect, which we then assign purpose. Art is an excellent example of this : art is expression by an artist, not for others, not for a purpose, but because the artist feels the need to express and externalise something. That which the artist expresses does not go away, and expressing it does not absolve the artist of their need to express it, but it does satisfy them in having given form to that feeling. That is why many artists create several variations on a theme.
            Everyone else, however, comes up with their own meaning and purpose, and may or may not want to share their views on it. But just because somebody sees an artwork and *thinks* it means something or has a particular purpose, does not magically give the piece meaning or purpose. The Lord of the Rings for instance, is compared by many to the rise of German Nazism, but the author himself categorically stated that his books did not have meaning or purpose, they were just a nice story, written because the author wanted to write them, nothing more.

            With regards to the parallel galaxies, I believe you meant to say that parallel universes have not been proven, because parallel galaxies have not only been proven; they are in fact visible with even a very simple telescope. ^_^

            Now then, that parallel universes have not been proven to exist is correct, but as we come to understand more and more about this universe, we must eventually concede that the big bang is MUCH more likely to have originated from some other event, rather than from nothing as if by magic. The same reasoning I would apply to your claim that the magic invisible man in the sky made everything in six days “because he can”. If the fundamental forces can be demonstrated to be true, and magic can not, then we must assume that magic did not happen.

            I think you must have misunderstood my explanation of Hammurabic Law, because you characterise it as idiotic, although history has unequivocally demonstrated it to be true. As for the literacy issue, you appear to have also misunderstood that : my point is not whether the man was or was not literate. My point is exactly what you say : it is not possible for an illiterate to write a book. Therefore, either he did not write the book, or he was not illiterate. In point of fact, someone that can write a book, is by definition not illiterate. That was what I was trying to point out earlier.

            I have read not only the koran, but also the bible, both new and old testaments. I tried to read dianetics as well, but that was just too crazy to finish reading, so there I am not as well informed. It is in fact through reading the regional mythology of so many regions of the world, that I became such a well-informed atheist. Almost every culture has a mythology to it, and they are regionally similar to a degree that makes it cartoonishly obvious that the various cultures in a region share the same story, each told in slightly different ways. The writings from those mythologies are both so extremely self-contradictory and unrealistic, that it they could never be anything other than a storybook.
            I mean think about it…. how would you react if you were walking from work to school and a snake started talking to you about a magic tree? Or if he weather forecast on TV that it would rain tomorrow because an invisible man in the sky was angry? You would laugh out loud, right? You would think one of your friends was playing a trick on you, right?

            Lastly we come to the notion that atheism is a religion.
            Would you agree that OFF is not a tv channel?
            Would you agree that silence is not a sound?
            Would you agree that bald is not a hair colour?
            Would you agree that unemployment is not a job?
            If yes, then can you see that atheism is not a religion?

          • Yousaf Tariq

            Dude I can see just how much you like in depth arguments, your comments are so frickin long man and only a small portion of it is relevant and everything else is bullshit building up to the relevant point. You appreciate animals and nature, I get the point, move on. I know what you are gonna say next, “and you don’t appreciate animals and nature” so if you are then save it, I like my discussions short and to the point.
            Furthermore, the kill yourself thing was me trying to make a point, sorry if you were offended. But if the emotional distress holds importance to you then you and those you hold important should all kill yourself together. Just kidding lol. P.S that was not to make a point, it was just to light the mood.
            And the point about an illiterate man writing a book, his enemies all knew about him being illiterate and I bet you can find proof of him being illiterate on the Internet. Then the question rises about him writing a book, he did not write the book, when he received revelations of the so called magic man through his magic minions he simply told to his companions what he heard and they wrote it down. Furthermore how can you explain the feeling of revelation coming by his companions, his companions could see that his camel sat down as when revelation came it could not bear the weight. His companion once felt the weight of prophet when revelation came. So what u r assuming is that his companions said, this man says himself to be a prophet but we know he’s lying, let’s sacrifice our lives in his cause and let’s support and add to his lies just so we can fool the future generations to come. Tell me this, how can his worst enemies reject his cause time and time again and still they never called him a liar.
            Wow you take incompetence and obnoxiousness to a whole new degree. You are an atheist, you are so cool and unique, happy now. I read a person’s comment a while ago he said that he was an atheist for a long time and then he began to ponder and finally truly believed that there was a god but he followed no specific religion. I am a true Muslim but still I smiled after reading his comment. Saying that there is no God is not quite acceptable to me and hence Muslims hold Christians and Jews in utmost respect.
            Furthermore as I said, this debate is heading into a stalemate so if I have your ok, may we please suspend the debate.

          • Inservio Letum

            We may indeed if that is your preference. Thank you for the exchange.

          • Yousaf Tariq

            You too, I truly used to think that atheism only existed due to neglect in knowledge of religion, you showed me that there is another kind and so I thank you for increasing my knowledge.

          • Inservio Letum

            And I you for increasing mine. ^_^ Peace be upon you.

          • Yousaf Tariq

            Dude just one last thing, since you have a crazy explanation for everything. How do you explain Zam Zam?

          • Inservio Letum

            Err…. when you say explain, which part do you mean? The mineral composition of the water? The geology of the water table?

          • Yousaf Tariq

            The part in which Abraham was commanded to leave his infant son and wife in the desert by an imaginary man and a never ending well just happened to pop up there.

          • Inservio Letum

            The well bursting forth on it’s own was a result of the igneous intrusion into the sedimentary rock layers, which put the water table under pressure. The Saudi Geological Survey’s report on the geology of the area around the Masjid al-Haram illustrates which rock and soil types are where, from which you can clearly see how the water was trapped, and is constantly fed from the surrounding land.
            As for why the spring broke through exactly in the spot where it did, that is sheer coincidence. An apple hitting me on the head does not mean god threw it at me, it means I was sitting under an apple tree. A spring breathing through the ground near me does not mean god wants me to drink, it means I was sitting near a weak spot in a pressurised water table. A sinkhole opening and swallowing my house does not mean satan is claiming my family’s souls, it means my house was built on a weak spot of the earth’s crust.
            Remember : correlation is not causation. Just because things look or seem related, does not always mean one caused the other. ;)

          • Yousaf Tariq

            Sure. I can’t further argue with a person who bases religion on coincidence.

          • Inservio Letum

            Wait isn’t that backwards? I base cognition on observation, and try to actively exclude coincidence from polluting the data.
            Religion however, takes all manner of coincidences, and uses them to it’s own advantage, like saying the blood moon is an evil omen when in fact it’s simple meteorology.

          • Yousaf Tariq

            Sure, whatever you say

          • Yousaf Tariq

            One more thing, the quran challenges the unbelievers that “And if you are in doubt about what we have sent down upon our servant (Muhammad pbuh), then produce a surah the like thereof”. (2:23 al-baqarah). If you are so educated and believe that religion is a fantasy then accept the challenge.

          • Inservio Letum

            I know it does, and that is a false equivalency. Freedom is not equal to the option to enact a different slavery. The whole notion of arbitrary rules enforced by infinite punishment is not proportionate to the crimes the rules might protect against, and is not open to developments in social and technological progress.
            Scientific understanding and scientific reasoning matures as the data they draw conclusions from does. The notion of bleeding an animal to death is unbelievably cruel in a world where we have the option to harvest the animal cleanly efficiently and without torturing it. Mutilating a defenseless child is cruel and sadistic in a time when modern medicine keeps children perfectly safe from the diseases circumcision once might have helped prevent. Sexualising women to the point of commanding them to cover their entire bodies is not only cruel, but also counterproductive, because it gives the men no chance to learn how to behave around women during their formative years.

            So no, I do not accept that the only alternative to the surahs is to write other surahs. The alternative to surahs is to educate the young rather than indoctrinate them, to teach them how to think instead of what to think. If all human knowledge is lost tomorrow, we would eventually learn all the same laws of physics again, and develop the scientific method again as it exists now. The storybooks, however, we would never be able to relearn, because nothing observable in existence can teach us that story. Of course there could come someone new claiming to be the magical son of an invisible man in the sky, but nobody would be able to duplicate the story of the invisible man in the sky from before all knowledge was lost.
            It is that very property that prevents reasoning minds from accepting hearsay as fact, and thus also unicorns, gods, the tooth fairy, or any other mythical figure.

          • Yousaf Tariq

            The quran commands us that we should fully sharpen our blades (away from the anumals) before sacrificing them and this is one of the most painless method of death and all blood flow to the brain stops and hence this is not inhumane at all. Furthermore I don’t have sufficient knowledge on circumcision to comment but I can tell you true stories about a poor children in villages who had to suffer as they weren’t circumcised. Would you rather that your mother walks half naked on the street or covers herself up (I know it’s a rather extreme example). The quran commands women to cover their hair and their whole bodies so that morality is maintained in a society and a society in which people drool over every women passing by is not created.
            Furthermore Allah has guaranteed preservation of quran and the so called storybook will not perish except in the years before the last day. Explain me this, the Christians say jesus died by crucifixion, 500 years later an uneducated man rises up in Arabia and gets up and says jesus isn’t dead, explain how that happens. Furthermore quran has stated the expansion of galaxies which was proved modern science. If you still choose to be ignorant then I can do nothing. And don’t call something a story book just because you deny it’s contents.

          • Inservio Letum

            Oh come off it man, een if you were to sharpen a blade to the thickness of a single atom, sensory neurons transmit pain at between 45 and 85 meters per second. You honestly think you can drain a carcass hanging head down of sufficient blood in the 0.02 seconds it takes the animal to feel the blade? Exsanguination, even from both carotid arteries, takes minutes, not split seconds. If the slaughter was to proceed by first draining the blood through a needle, then the animal would simply fall asleep with virtually no pain. The only truly painless way to kill a creature with a brain, is to sever the brain stem, or electrocute the brain.

            On circumcision the bronze age defense is all to common, and naturally in those places where even water is absent and basic hygiene cannot be maintained, bronze age rules can occasionally still be applicable. Cutting off the lips is easier than providing the child with a toothbrush.
            But to mandate child mutilation no matter WHERE the child is born? That is just unconscionable. As you suggested I offer an alternate decree, here it is. The correct surah to give is that all men women and children of islam must wash in running water every morning, or be deemed unclean by their god.

            Allah is only known because of his book. In that book it says he will protect that which the book says. Do you see how it is oddly convenient that the story and the god claim to uphold eachother? If the story is not infallible, then what the book claims might not be true, and the god is no longer infallible. However, if the god is not infallible, then he cannot protect the book, and the book can be changed by man, who is fallible. Look up “napkin religion” on google, it is a good example of what I’m trying to point out.

            How the uneducated man you speak of knew of jezus is simple. People have been talking about the same story for FAR longer than any of the abrahamic religions ever existed. The story of christ for instance, goes all the way back to the egyptians. And before you say the Egyptians absorbed the Jewish tales just as the Romans absorbed the abrahamic tales, consider that the deities of lower egypt have roots much deeper in Africa, as far as Somalia.
            There is a game we used to play to get to know the class when I was in school, called Chinese Whispers. All the children in the class sit in a circle, and one person gets a message whispered in their ear by the teacher. That student whispers it to the next student, and they to the next, and so on until the message goes around the whole circle, and then the last student says out loud what he heard. The message at the end is usually TOTALLY different from the original message the teacher gave, and that is how stories are passed down in verbal tradition. Each storyteller changes something, or explains something in a different way, and that is how we ended up with major territorial conflicts being fought over what is basically different versions of the same bedtime story from 6000+ B.C.

            The koran has not explicitly stated that galaxies were expanding from a central point, nor even what galaxies are. In fact, the koran does not even teach of orbiting celestial bodies of heliocentrism. Certainly, certain phrases can be interpreted to MEAN “galaxies are moving apart” but can you honestly invent no other meaning to apply to that phrase? Can it really mean nothing else? Is every word of that surah literally truly the correct word for each term? I can write down “blood is thicker than water” and then claim on that basis that I understand digestion, but can it really ONLY mean that? If I wanted to prove I understood digestion, I would describe osmosis, not write a vague comparison that could mean a thousand things.

            Lastly, the characterisation of storybook. A storybook is a book of stories, whether you call the book “Fairytales For Bedtime”, or “Collected Works of Chaucer”, or “Musings on the Planets”, or Bible/Torah/Koran or even “Book of the Dead”. In the end it is a collection of stories, thought up by man, written down by man, and applicable only to man.
            Think about it…. Dogs can tell us we have cancer, cats can tell us we’re going to die, monkeys can even learn our languages…. but somehow a book ordained by a single supreme being lording over not just this planet by ALL of existence…. just happens to discuss only laws and motivations of ONE species of ONE planet? Worse still, literally ALL of the abrahamic religions’ stories happen within a few hundred kilometers of the middle east. Nothing in europe, nothing in asia, nothing in australia, north or south america, or the poles.
            I do not deny the contents of the storybooks, quite the contrary, any more than I deny the contents of Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone; but religion does not command acceptance! It commands obedience and belief under threat of ETERNAL torture. The billions of years I mentioned in an earlier post with regards to the age of the earth…. Imagine living that long. Imagine being on fire for 4.6 billion years. Then imagine twice that. Then ten times that. Then a hundred times.
            Eternity is FOREVER. There is no end, even after billions and billions of years of continuously suffering the fear and pain of burning alive. Think about it…. billions and billions of years screaming in pain, because you did not cover your hair in a special building. And then, as if such unmeasurable cruelty is not enough, the magic invisible man in the sky wants you to think he condemns people to burn forever, BECAUSE HE LOVES THEM.
            Stop and think about that for a minute. Think of every person on this planet you know does not believe in your god. Perhaps your neighbour, someone at the bus stop, a child in a playground…. The magic invisible man in the sky wants to set your fellow humans on fire for billions and billions of years, simply because they have the discipline not to accept stories as fact without peer reviewed proof. Putting aside whether you choose to accept slavery to such a master…. why on earth would you WANT to?

          • Yousaf Tariq

            Too long, only read the first paragraph. A team at the university of Hannover in Germany examined these claims through the use of EEG and ECG records during slaughter. Several electrodes were surgically implanted at various points of the skull of all the animals used in the experiment and they were then allowed to recover for several weeks. Some of the animals were subsequently slaughtered the halal way by making a swift, deep incision with a sharp knife on the neck, cutting the jugular veins and carotid arteries of both sides together with the trachea and esophagus but leaving the spinal cord intact. The remainder were stunned before slaughter using a captive bolt pistol method as is customary in Western slaughterhouses. The EEG and ECG recordings allowed to monitor the condition of the brain and heart throughout.

            The Halal method

            With the halal method of slaughter, there was not change in the EEG graph for the first three seconds after the incision was made, indicating that the animal did not feel any pain from the cut itself. This is not surprising. Often, if we cut ourselves with a sharp implement, we do not notice until some time later. The following three seconds were characterised by a condition of deep sleep-like unconciousness brought about by the draining of large quantities of blood from the body. Thereafter the EEG recorded a zero reading, indicating no pain at all, yet at that time the heart was still beating and the body convulsing vigorously as a reflex reaction of the spinal cord. It is this phase which is most unpleasant to onlookers who are falsely convinced that the animal suffers whilst its brain does actually no longer record any sensual messages.

            The Western method

            Using the Western method, the animals were apparently unconscious after stunning, and this method of dispatch would appear to be much more peaceful for the onlooker. However, the EEG readings indicated severe pain immediately after stunning. Whereas in the first example, the animal ceases to feel pain due to the brain starvation of blood and oxygen – a brain death, to put it in laymen’s terms – the second example first causes a stoppage of the heart whilst the animal still feels pain. However, there are no unsightly convulsions, which not only means that there is more blood retention in the meat, but also that this method lends itself much more conveniently to the efficiency demands of modern mass slaughter procedures. It is so much easier to dispatch an animal on the conveyor belt, if it does not move.
            And do not write some b.s like don’t reproduce, I have exams so I don’t have time to spare and that’s why u was urging for the suspension of this debate which is leading no where.

          • Inservio Letum

            Erm… the factory farming method you mean. The western method is a bolt gun to the brain.

            I know the EEG study you mention, from the Journal of Veterinary Medicine. I thought I remembered it came to almost the exact opposite conclusion of what you are citing here, so I checked. Feel free to reread the paper for yourself: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19471325

            In short, halal slaughter of cattle cannot be done without harm to the animal, as an upright or supine animal will aspirate large volumes of blood and effectively feel it is drowning until the blood pressure drops far enough that hypoxia numbs their brain, and a suspended animal will be immensely fearful of the unnatural body position. In both cases, the relatively small size of the brain and enormous blood volume means hypoxia takes FAR longer than it does in humans.
            To put it another way : breathe in deeply, then breathe all the air out of your lungs, and hold your breath. Check how long you can hold your breath, and then imagine you have ten times as much blood full of oxygen, and only one third the brain volume using it. It takes a loooooooong time before a cow’s little brain doesn’t have enough oxygen to process pain. As long as the brain is connected to the body and not anaesthetised, the animal can feel.

          • Yousaf Tariq

            Ok Dude u win, you are the most educated person on this planet and all the people were created so that you may laugh at their stupidity, you happy now? Stop wasting my time, I’d rather that I get good grades then argue about religion with an atheist.
            “If anyone contends with the messenger even after guidance has been conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that becoming to men of faith, we shall leave him in the path he has. ” (4:115)
            I conveyed the message, the rest is on you. P.S my source was http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?344517-Halal-Slaughter!-Is-it-truly-painless and it seems true enough. Hope we never talk again, bye.

          • Inservio Letum

            Ah.. there’s the problem. The post you linked is just that : a forum post. It is not a registered paper proofed by peer review or even backed with research papers.

          • Yousaf Tariq

            “And the firmament, We constructed with power and skill and verily We are expanding it.” I don’t see any other meaning of this verse. P.S Dude u had friends, that is legitimately surprising to me. Furthermore only making partners with Allah is an unpardonable sin, anyone who believes in one God can and will be forgiven. Also to the unbelievers a second chance will be given in the day of judgement, they will say we will follow you send us back to Earth. He will say if you follow my commands then jump in the pit of fire with will actually be a gateway to heaven. That is mercy my friend.

    • Yousaf Tariq

      Wtf did I just read

  • hosam

    Thank you for your topic, I hope the day comes we truly understand and respect each other and communicate with out hating and causing war

    • JOEL RASAILEE

      LET THE WORLD SAYS ANYTHING, ALL MY MUSLIM BROTHERS JESUS CHRIST IS THE LORD, WHO IS THE WAY THE TRUTH THE LIFE, WAY TO HEAVEN… WHO HEALED THE LEPERS, BLINDS, PARALYSIS, MADE ROSE (ALIVE) THE LAZARUS AT LAZARUS THIRD DAY OF HIS DEATH. JESUS GAVE THE CHRISTIANS AUTHORITY TO PREACH THE GOSPEL OF GOD, HEALED THE SUFFERERS, CAST DEVIL..IN JESUS NAME…..SO, WE CHRISTIAN ARE NOT AN ORDINARY BELIEVERS ..BUT THE PEOPLE WHOM GOD GAVE THIS HUGE AUTHORITY..
      AND BIBLES TEACHES US LOVE YOUR ENEMY, WHEN YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY GIVE HIM FOOD, WHEN THIRSTY GIVE HIM WATER.

      DO UR RELIGION TEACHES U..AND DO U HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO HEAL THE DISEASES JUST WITH THE WORD OF GOD AND PRAYER.

      IN JESUS NAME

      SO, U FRNDS 2 BELIEVE IN JESUS AND HAVE ETERNAL LIFE BE SAVED..

      • Inservio Letum

        TL;DR takes a new meaning here.
        TOO LOUD; DIDN’T READ

      • Yousaf Tariq

        Dude we Muslims also believe in all the signs of Jesus like his curing of leprosy etc. We just believe that Jesus was sent to preach the message of god, the beliefs he was trying to preach were corrupted by people who started thinking of his as a God.

  • Jodie Tysver Jensen

    Where is there a Christian who believes that Jesus ESCAPED death? Way to slap Jesus right in the face after he died a tragic, horrible death on our behalf. There was no escape. Resurrection is completely different. That is an incredibly dishonorable statement to make, negating his sacrficie.

    • John Wolf

      You took the words right out of my mouth! :)

    • Inservio Letum

      Someone was clearly doing her nails in sixth grade english class. Death is not only the act of dying, but also the state of being dead. Resurrection is an escape from that state.

      • Jodie Tysver Jensen

        Clearly you missed the point of the author’s statement. In saying Jesus “escaped death”, the true imitation is that he avoided death, or more accurately – never died. Christians most certainly do NOT believe Jesus escaped death in that way. His death was true, complete, and horrific. You ought to fact-check before posting sarcastic comments about anyone’s school days.

        From the follow-up post regarding DIFFERENCES between the two religions:
        Muslims do not believe that Jesus died on the cross as the Bible says in Matthew 27, Mark 15, Luke 23, and John 19 . Muslims differ among themselves as to exactly how Jesus escaped from death. A key Qur’an verse is as follows:
        “That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise” (Surah 4:157-158)

        • Jodie Tysver Jensen

          I’m sorry – “true implication”, not imitation.

        • Inservio Letum

          Fact … check … sarcasm …

          Go back up and read those three words again. Think about it. Not only are you taking obvious sarcasm literally, which might be forgiven as a classic example of sarchasm (the gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn’t get it), but you are identifying it as such, as if to underline that you are deliberately CHOOSING to take it literally O_o

          Do I *literally* think there is a *literal* school transcript of yours *literally* in the world somewhere *literally* detailing how you were doing your nails rather than paying attention to grammar?

          As for your translations, I’m not sure whether alarm or amusement should be taking precedent when reading that, but suffice it to say I doubt even Google Translate would be that crude.
          Both of my Egyptian mates are on holiday at the moment, so I will have to get back to you with a closer approximation of the actual wording and corresponding cultural context.
          Based on your reaction to sarcasm, however, I find myself wondering if you are even ready to process abstraction such as it pertains to storytelling. All three abrahamic religions have wooly nonsense aplenty in there to quiet the simple-minded riffraff down, but reading those parts LITERALLY, is how people end up in bombvests, avenging some imagined slight to their imaginary friend!

  • Pete Llloyd

    Item 7 is not a Christian belief. We as Christians believe Christ died on the cross,, for our sins, and then was resurrected on the third day. After being resurrected he walked the earth for 50 more days then ascended to Heaven.

    • Inservio Letum

      Another smarting case of average american literacy I see! Death is not only the act of dying, but also the state of being dead. Resurrection is an escape from that state.


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