Francis Chan: Multiply

The Blog Manager alerted me that Mark Beuving – coauthor of “Multiply” – responded to my questions to Francis. His questions are below and my answers follow each one:

Here’s what Mark wrote.

“This is Mark Beuving, co-author of Multiply. I’m not sure if Francis will have the time to drop in or not, but in the meantime, I took a stab at furthering the discussion by answering your questions. I think your concerns are very important . . . Mostly I think we’re talking about minor differences in emphasis, and even so, I think we’re largely on the same page here. I’d love to hear your thoughts:”

MY RESPONSE:

Thanks for your gracious reply, Mark.

I had hoped that Francis would interact, but I understand about generals sending their soldiers out to fight their battles. I’m totally teasing you . . . and Francis.

I appreciate your attention to my questions. David C. Cook has my personal email address and Francis can contact me off list. I don’t ever see him dialoguing online or via social media, so he would probably prefer talking that way. But I’ll just sketch out a few quick responses to your points.

Frank’s Question 1. Most of the discipleship books and programs today fail to mention the essential ingredient of being a disciple according to both Jesus and Paul. That ingredient is – learning to live by the indwelling life of Christ. This is the central tenet of New Testament revelation, yet it’s grossly neglected today. What is the reason why this wasn’t discussed in your book?

FROM MARK: The only disagreement I have here is the assertion that it’s not addressed in the book. It’s true that we spent the first sections of the book exploring the command to make disciples, but we definitely discussed the indwelling presence of God as a necessary empowerment for the task. When we discussed the New Testament in Part V, we included a whole chapter on the Spirit of God. (We also touch on it in Part IV in the chapter on God’s Presence on Earth.) Perhaps we’re talking about a difference of emphasis, but this is a reality that both Francis and I consider essential and all-important for the Christian life, and I don’t believe we short-changed the role of the Spirit. No one would expect you (Frank) to keep up on every book that Francis has written, but he has demonstrated his concern for the church trying to fulfill its mission apart from the Spirit in Forgotten God and in his BASIC video series.

MY RESPONSE TO MARK:
Yes, I am aware that you talk about the Holy Spirit in the book. But I was speaking of *living by Christ’s indwelling life* specifically. Jesus said over and over again that He lived by His Father’s indwelling life. That was the engine of His amazing life. In His resurrection, Jesus became “a life-giving Spirit” (1 Cor. 15) and the passage moved. So what the Father was to Jesus, Jesus is to us now. He’s our indwelling Lord. “As the Father has sent me and I live by the Father, so he who partakes of me shall live by Me.” Paul said the mystery of the ages is “Christ in you,” the hope of glory. Jesus also distilled being a disciple down to “it is not I, but Christ who lives in me.” Or as he put it in Colossians 3, “Christ our life.” I believe that the issue of how to live by the indwelling life of Christ is overlooked by most who talk about discipleship today. But it’s Discipleship 101. Without that, we repeat the mistakes of the past. So it’s a neglected aspect of the Holy Spirit’s ministry in need of exploration and recovery. I linked to an audio that introduces the subject in my answer. If you and Francis want a better idea of what I’m talking about exactly, you both can give it a listen. http://ptmin.podbean.com/2010/10/04/living-by-the-indwelling-life-of-christ/

Frank’s Question 2. While there’s a lot of discussion on how to read the Bible, I didn’t see a presentation of God’s Eternal Purpose, which is the grand narrative of Scripture. It is also God’s ultimate intention in creation, redemption, and discipleship. While there were elements of it here and there, there was no discussion on what it exactly is and how all Scripture and authentic spiritual experience is tied together by it. Why was this left out?

FROM MARK: I don’t know what to say to this. In Parts IV and V, we devote nearly 200 pages to God’s eternal purpose as revealed in the Old and New Testaments. In discussing how to read the Bible (Part III), we are trying to give people the tools to begin reading the Bible so that they can hear directly from God’s word as to what his grand purpose is. Then we guide them through God’s mission as it is revealed in the storyline of the Bible. I’d be curious to hear if there is something specific you were hoping we would say in this regard.

MY RESPONSE TO MARK:
Regarding the Eternal Purpose, yes, I did point out that there were elements here and there. But not what I consider to be a clear explanation of His Purpose that runs from Genesis to Revelation. If I asked a reader of your book, what is God’s eternal purpose? Why did He create the universe in the first place? I am not sure they would be able to answer that accurately. I think there are many assumptions about what God’s purpose is. Some say it’s going to heaven. Others say it’s the salvation of humans. Others say it’s God’s glory, which is never fully explained and many assumptions are given to it that make it very unclear. Others say it’s making the world a better place. If you send me your address, I’ll send you and Francis a copy of From Eternity to Here (David C. Cook), if you’re interested. The book unveils what I mean by “the Eternal Purpose of God” in concrete terms. If you read it, you’ll understand why I felt it wasn’t really treated in the book. Oh, the title even borrows a word from your Bible college.

Frank’s Question 3. There’s a recent emphasis in Christian circles today about making disciples rapidly. We know from the book of Acts that the way that the apostles carried out Jesus’ word to make disciples was to plant ekklesias. Paul, who was the premier church planter, strove for quality rather than quantity (he planted about 14 ekklesias in his lifetime). How do you distinguish the emphasis to make disciples rapidly from the principles of network marketing in the business world?

FROM MARK: I’m not sure there is an emphasis on making disciples rapidly. That’s a slippery term, anyway. What we wanted to emphasize was not the rate at which disciples are produced, but the ratio of Christians who are involved in the disciple-making process. In Part I, we explore Jesus’ command to make disciples and define what a disciple looks like. But in Part II, we explain that discipleship and the church are inseparable, that an isolated Christian is a contradiction in terms. So I agree with you completely in this concern, but I don’t believe we gave the opposite impression. Multiply in itself is designed to help people understand what discipleship is and to get them in the game of making disciples. But we certainly didn’t intend to put a growth rate on it or suggest that each disciple must be making x disciples per month.

MY RESPONSE TO MARK:
Discipleship is often seen and viewed as a “program” of sorts. Not as part of a habitat, much of which happens naturally. Rapid multiplication of disciples (and churches) is a thrust in some quarters of the discipleship movement today and mirrors (strikingly close) the principles of network marketing. So I’m glad to hear you’re not trying to sell that. One can easily build a large movement by network marketing principles mixed with the raw material of youthful enthusiasm, but gold, pearl, and precious stone it doth not make. But many Christian movements used that material to build their movements and I see it happening today. (Again, history repeats itself.)

There’s also the matter of operating by spiritual instinct when it comes to making disciples vs. operating out of religious duty and/or guilt. The latter dominates today and without a clear explanation of the difference, people naturally fall into the 2nd. They try it for awhile and either fail or eventually burn out. And the guilt just increases. I have scores of letters from many who have this testimony. I’ve seen their tears and heard their agony in the conferences where I’ve preached. Youthful enthusiasm eventually runs dry. From my experience of ministering to young people throughout the years, I believe we need to teach and show them how to operate on something higher and more sustainable. This gets back to living by an indwelling Christ. If you ask most young people today what that means (do you know how to live by Jesus Christ?), they have no idea. Many older Christians don’t know either. Here’s another place where I talked about it to many young people: http://ptmin.podbean.com/2011/09/04/epic-jesus-the-christ-you-never-knew/ I think it may help you to understand where I’m coming from.

Frank’s Question 4. One thing I’ve observed is that many of the authors who are promoting “discipleship” today are unaware of the history of the Discipleship Movement in North America in the 1970s and the tremendous damage it caused. I believe that if we don’t learn the mistakes of the past, we will unwittingly repeat them. Given that you are now promoting the modern-day discipleship movement, what are you doing to safeguard God’s people from falling into the same errors of the former discipleship movement?

FROM MARK: I’d love to hear what specific mistakes you have in mind here, and specifically how Multiply falls into those traps. Our intention was not to look back to the 1970s and revive an old movement. Rather, we were looking back to the overall mission of God as expressed in the story of the Bible and to Jesus’ command to make disciples. You are right that the church has latched onto these things in misguided and even harmful ways at times, but that’s no reason not to promote biblical concepts like discipleship. So I’d be curious to hear if this was a concern relating to the way discipleship was presented in the book or if it’s a general concern that comes to mind when you hear people talking about discipleship. Either way, it’s an important concern that we’ll want to address.

MY RESPONSE TO MARK:
I never thought you were reviving an old movement. Rather, I was expressing a concern that unfamiliarity with it can unwittingly end up repeating the same mistakes of the past. One philosopher said that the only thing that we know about history is that men never learn anything from it. The discipleship movement of the 1970s began with the same goals and intentions that today’s discipleship movement is beginning with. The men who spawned it were in their 40s. They were pastors and ex-pastors who became traveling teachers. The movement was made up largely of young people. New converts from The Jesus Movement. Anyways, I’d encourage you and Francis to study it. And I’m available to talk to you both about it off line should you wish to. I’ve given years to studying it and talking to both the leaders and the casualties of it. The second part of “Reimagining Church” reflects some of that. I’m amazed at how often history repeats itself by those who don’t know it. So I want to avoid seeing this happen if I can help it.

Frank’s Question 5. The modern idea of discipleship is intensely individualistic. So I was glad that you and Mark talked briefly about community in the book. But talking about community is one thing. People recontextualize what they read into their own experience. In my on-the-ground experience over the last two decades, I’ve not seen discipleship be very effective unless believers were living in a close-knit, face-to-face community that is seeking the face of Jesus Christ regularly outside of scheduled corporate gatherings and which includes a regular gathering for every-member functioning under the direct headship of Christ. Every letter in the NT was written to such face-to-face communities. Those face-to-face communities were the native habitat in which spiritual growth and transformation took place. Many churches are nothing like what I’ve described here, despite the fact that they might use the rhetoric of “community.” So if we get the church wrong, we get discipleship wrong also. Do you think this is possible?

FROM MARK: Amen. The church living as a vital community is essential. I’m not sure if this is a straight question or a concern about the book though. It’s a book, and all we can do in a book is “talk about community.” I agree that modern people read things individualistically. That’s why we emphasized the church and the essential nature of community. We were careful to emphasize it throughout. To answer your question at the end: I think you’re right that when we view church as a service we attend rather than a community or a body of which we are an essential part, we end up getting discipleship wrong.

MY RESPONSE TO MARK:
Glad you agree on this one. But I read that section as if I were a member of a traditional church. A pew warmer “who went faithfully to church” and listened to sermons, paid tithes, took notes, etc. That’s most Christians today. As someone who has written a series of books on radical church restoration, I’ve discovered that getting past the “familiarity filter” where people naturally interpret what they are reading – even about “community” – through the grid of their own traditional church experience requires making some radical comparisons to define what one means and doesn’t mean by “community.” Just an observation and nothing more.

FROM MARK: I hope that’s helpful. We certainly don’t claim that Multiply is perfect or that we will agree 100% in content or emphasis with every solid Christian. Whenever you emphasize x, it can be difficult to convince people that you are not inherently denying y. What we wanted to do with Multiply was renew the church’s focus on discipleship—a focus that we believe has gotten lost in the church-activity shuffle—and give people a tangible first step in guiding others down the road of true discipleship. Thanks for treating the book so carefully and for raising your questions with a gentle and edifying touch.

MY RESPONSE TO MARK: Thx. You wrote a good book, Mark. And I’m sure many will read it. Again, I’m available to discuss these issues with Francis further off list . . . as well as the issue of the church, which many have inquired about where we are concerned.

I’ve lost count of the men who left the institutional church system and who set out to reinvent the wheel on their own, only to repeat the mistakes of the past. It’s a humbling thing to learn from those who have gone before us and who have successfully pioneered in the trenches.

If I should ever hear from him, it would make some people quite happy and it will be nice to stop getting emails from people asking me if we’ve ever talked!

Yours in the costly but glorious quest,

fv

Psalm 115:1