Deporting homeschoolers

Homeschooling in Germany is illegal and is punished harshly with fines, imprisonment, and even the taking away of children from their families.  A family that suffered that persecutionfor homeschooling their children came to the United States seeking religious freedom, as so many other immigrants have done, and an immigration judge recognized their jeopardy in their home  country and granted them asylum.  But Attorney General Eric Holder and the Department of Homeland Security are disputing that ruling and are seeking to deport the homeschooling family. 

From Mary Jackson at World Magazine:

A family homeschooling safely in rural Tennessee may be forced to return to their native Germany, where the parents likely face huge fines and criminal penalties, and could lose custody of their five school-age children.

Uwe and Hannelore Romeike are looking to the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals to give them permanent refugee status. But Attorney General Eric Holder is disputing their case, arguing Germany’s ban on homeschooling fails to violate the family’s fundamental rights.

The Romeikes fled Germany in 2008 after authorities fined them thousands in euros and forcibly took their children because they homeschool. In 2010, a U.S. immigration judge granted the Romeikes political asylum—the first time this status was granted based on compulsory schooling laws. The judge found the family has legitimate fear of persecution in Germany, where a small group of Christian homeschooling families have already been jailed, fined, and stripped of their children.

But the Department of Homeland Security immediately disputed the judge’s decision. Last May, the Board of Immigration Appeals (BIA) sided with the government. It may take up to a year for a circuit court ruling, according to the Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA), which is representing the Romeikes.

via WORLD | Christian homeschoolers losing deportation fight | Mary Jackson | Feb. 13, 2013.

For more, see this.

I thought the Obama administration is supposed to be friendly to immigration and to immigrants!  The administration doesn’t want to deport illegal aliens, but wants to deport legal aliens, at least those with a religious freedom claim?

What is there about this case, do you think, that makes the administration want to get rid of these people?

HT:  David Berger

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Grace

    Homeschoolers seek asylum from Nazi-era law
    ‘We left family, our home … but the freedom is worth it’
    Published: 11/17/2008

    This story has been ongoing for a long time. It’s a disgrace, that anyone should have to endure such pain.

    Achtung! Germany drags homeschool kids to class
    Authorities haul crying children away to avoid ‘danger’ from parental teachings
    “A Nazi-era law requiring all children to attend public school, to avoid “the emergence of parallel societies based on separate philosophical convictions” that could be taught by parents at home, apparently is triggering a Nazi-like response from police.

    The word comes from Netzwerk Bildungsfreiheit, or Network for Freedom in Education, which confirmed that children in a family in Bissingen, in the state of Baden-Wuerttemberg, have been forcibly hauled to a public school.

    “On Friday 20 October 2006 at around 7:30 a.m. the children of a home educating family … were brought under duress to school by police,” the organization, which describes itself as politically and religiously neutral, confirmed.

    http://www.wnd.com/2006/10/38535/

  • Grace

    The LINK was missing from the first story.

    Homeschoolers seek asylum from Nazi-era law
    ‘We left family, our home … but the freedom is worth it’

    Published: 11/17/2008 at 10:29 PM

    http://www.wnd.com/2008/11/81318/

  • Patrick Kyle

    Between Operation Fast and Furious, the legal justification for the extra judicial killing of US citizens, and now this, the USAG strikes me as a wicked man, or at least a man acting like a wicked tyrant.

  • http://theoldadam.com/ the Old Adam

    The exercising of power. What else is new?

    That is why our Founders desired smaller government. Less power to be wielded.

  • James Sarver

    “What is there about this case, do you think, that makes the administration want to get rid of these people?”

    As Euro-socialist wannabes they want to avoid calling out their heroes for political perscution. Why would administration hacks want to embarrass those they idolize? The current administration would love nothing better than to behave in the same manner.

  • Orianna Laun

    The no-homeschooling law is a Nazi-era law. Should this not be sending up red flags to everyone? Why did the Nazis want compulsory education? Propaganda and assimilation. It wasn’t because schools can do what parents cannot. Why are so many clamoring for public preschool these days? Get the kids younger. I am not an alarmist by any means, but secular humanism is the “doctrine” public education is based on these days, and has been for years. Don’t believe it? Read the three humanist manifestos for yourself and ask a teenager what his or her public high school teaches.

  • kerner

    HEY! Asylum is just another word for amnesty! Let ‘em get in line like anyone else! Look at that family. Lots of kids; don’t want to follow the rules; probably just want to go on welfare…

    Oh wait…they’re white…never mind… ;)

    Seriously, though, I wish these people all the best. But this wouldbroaden our concept of “persecution” as used in immigration law. And that would allow more people from more places to successfully apply for asylum.

  • Carl Vehse

    It was a mistake to permit East and West Germany to reunite.

  • kerner

    One thing should be made clear, Dr. Veith. These people ar NOT “legal immigrants”. The entered as visitors on August 17, 2008, and were given permission to stay until November 15, 2008. To enter is that status, an alien must declare that he/she has a domicile in his/her home country which he/she has no intention of abandonning. In this case any such statement was almost certainly not true.

    http://www.hslda.org/hs/international/Germany/
    RomeikeBrief.pdf

    On November 17, 2008, after the Romeikes had been illegal aliens for 2 days, they filed applicaions requesting political asylum. This is a form of relief applied for only by illegal aliens, because legal aliens have no need for it. They are already “legal”. An asylum applicant says, essentially, “I am not a legal alien, but I want permission to stay anyway, because I will be ‘persecuted’ in my home country if I am forced to go back.” The Romeikes made their application in the Immigration Court in Memphis, TN, which is a place in which a more sympathetic (on this issue) judge would be more likely to be found than in many other places Immigration Judges sit.

    Again, don’t get me wrong. I want them to win. But let’s not mischaracterize who these people are and what they are asking.

  • kerner

    hmmm. that link didn’t come out correctly. I am going to try to post it again, but if the whole thing doesn’t come out blue, try copying and pasting the address into the address box on your browser.

    http://www.hslda.org/hs/international/Germany/RomeikeBrief.pdf

  • http://pekoponian.blogspot.com pekoponian

    The Obama administration is friendly to immigrants who would be more likely to be potential Democrat voters. They also are in bed, so to speak, with teachers’ unions who hate, hate, hate homeschooling,and charter schools and private schools or anything else that infringes on their turf. Who cares if the kids learn anything useful, like reading or math or God forbid social studies (unless the U.S. is the bad guy in every chapter)?

  • Joe

    I think the answer to the question of why is actually pretty simple. We care more about our relationship with Germany than with these folks. Germany is our friend and the key to fixing Europe’s economy and we want to be able to influence what Germany does in that respect.

    The part of the case that worries me is the Government’s position that “Germany’s ban on homeschooling fails to violate the family’s fundamental rights.” That is directly contrary to US (and many state Supreme Courts, including Wisconsin) precedent that parents do have a fundamental right to guide the education of their kids. The US Supreme Court has walked the line, stating that states have the right to set standards and require education but that states cannot force parents to put their kids in public schools. Likewise, several decades ago, the Wisconsin Supreme Court found Wisconsin’s compulsory education law unconstitutional because it did not include a viable homeschooling option. The administration’s position has me concerned.

  • Lesa Mabry

    “What is there about this case, do you think, that makes the administration want to get rid of these people?” It seems obvious to me that it’s the beginning of a legal precedent. In the same way that “religious freedom” was phased out in favor of “freedom to worship,” a subtle change is taking place in our right to home school our children and the “right” of the state to indoctrinate our children. The faulty logic, group-think, and pretense is sickening. If we are to “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s” – does that mean that the hearts, minds and souls of our Christian children belong to God and not the state? What happens to a child who is surrendered to a government preschool at the age of 3 and left in the system until age 18 – or more if they attend a government university? The HHS mandate prompted an outraged panel of five. If home school parents are persecuted, will the Church avert its eyes?
    “We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.” 2 Corinthians 10:5

  • helen

    With five children, they may be against abortion.
    With homeschooling, their children may grow up to believe that, too.

    The democrats/Planned Parenthood don’t need any more of that kind of ‘illegal alien’!

  • Grace

    We, the WE, being Americans, are in much the same situation as those who struggled to come to the U.S. hundreds of years ago. It’s name is FREEDOM. This country has changed drastically, in the past 40 plus years. It hasn’t been hidden, it’s been right in our faces, as kids growing up, getting married, and then watching our own children. For me, it has been shocking for a number of reasons.

    The moral decay of any country begins with the children. As Hitler stated:

    He alone, who owns the youth, gains the Future!”
    Adolf Hitler, speech at the Reichsparteitag, 1935

    Chilling words, but none the less true.

    The public school situation has been the most obvious, taking everything out that has a hint of God within HOLY Scripture. Following that, allowing moral decay to permeate every aspect of daily public school life, be it school officials, teachers and of course the children.

    Even when I was in high school, the pendulum had begun to swing. It began with the teachers, and others who took charge, with liberal ideas, foisting them upon un-suspecting kids, – even the children knew the lines had been stepped over.

    Homeschooling isn’t my first choice, but it may be the only choice, if parents cannot afford Christian schools.

    Joe @ 12 comments: “We care more about our relationship with Germany than with these folks. Germany is our friend and the key to fixing Europe’s economy and we want to be able to influence what Germany does in that respect.”

    I believe Joe is correct.

  • DonS

    Joe @ 12 is correct — a major concern of this case is the Obama Administration’s continued demonstrated hostility to parental rights, which is a corollary to its hostility to religious freedom. HSLDA is involved with this case for that very reason — to protect Supreme Court precedents holding the parental right to direct a child’s education to be a fundamental Constitutional right.

  • DonS

    Kerner, it would seem as if the German family’s error was in filing for asylum. They should have just blatantly overstayed their visa, in which case, presumably, the Obama administration would have switched sides and opposed any efforts to deport them. It is those immigrants who try to follow the legal process who lose in our upside-down world of immigration.

  • kerner

    DonS @17:

    And an upside down world it is. In a world that made sense, people like this should be able to seek out financial sponsors, apply for jobs, support themselves, and homeschool their children, all without interference. They should not have to try to burn up goodness knows how many attorney hours (on both sides) arguing over whether having to send their children to German public schools is “persecution” under US immigration law.

  • Grace

    This information is dated back in February of 2005.

    Homeschool World: News:

    Huge Fines, Jail, and Loss of Custody Threatened for German Homeschoolers (February 21, 2005)

    “To those of us in the USA and other nations who have seen homeschooling blossom in the last 25 years, with the only “dire” consequences being more kids who can write well and do well on standardized tests, the idea that parents should be drastically punished for homeschooling sounds, well, Nazi-like. And I mean that literally.”

    http://www.home-school.com/news/germany2.html

  • Becky F.

    I hate to pull the race card on this one, but this sounds racist to me. The family wouldn’t fall under a minority voting block, so what’s the motivation to KEEP them in the country? Not to mention, this administration just doesn’t understand what religious freedom means. Thank God that I can homeschool my children in peace in the USA (today).

  • Grace

    Becky @ 20 “Not to mention, this administration just doesn’t understand what religious freedom means.”

    That’s a fact Becky, and they have no intention of understanding or realize what this poor family will face if they are deported.

    It must have been horrible hundreds of years ago, when people could not Worship God as they believed, and so boarded a ship, bringing them to this land, where hard work, cold winters, little food, but they made it, God gave them strength. And now we see a family who, might very well be thrown back into a country that will punish them for homschooling. How many little school houses doted the landscape in the infancy of our country, where God was honored, prayer was given every morning, and NOW? – that would be unheard of.

    FREEDOM now, our schools and many other institutions, where the athiest rules, his FREEDOM endless!

  • Barry Bishop

    Set the politics and laws aside for a moment and consider some basic questions: 1) Do children belong to the State? 2) Is religious freedom a universal human right? (the UN seems to think so http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a18)
    This pretty much clears it up for me. Not sure why the US govt. (esp. considering the circumstances of our colonization and founding) fails to see clearly on this.

  • Kirk

    This blog on Mexicans that come here illegally to escape violence and economic privation: “OMG deport them they broke the law!”

    This blog on Germans that come here illegally to home school their children: “OMG why would Obama deport them why does he hate religion?”

    Gotta love the consistency.

  • DonS

    Kirk @ 23:

    Obama on Germans who come here legally on a visa, and when the visa expires apply for asylum because their country persecutes homeschoolers and takes their children away: “OMG, deport them!”

    Obama on immigrants who enter illegally, or who enter legally on a visa and simply overstay that visa without leaving or applying for legal status: “No way are we going to deport them unless maybe if they commit a serious felony!”

    Gotta love the consistency.

    Hopefully, you see my point. Sure, there are inconsistencies on both sides, but the immigrants who try to come into or stay in our country by following the legal process face a lot more difficulty than those who simply and openly flout our laws. Why is that?

  • DonS

    Kerner @ 18: I agree. Would that we had reasonable laws regarding the limitation of eligibility for our generous governmental benefits to non-citizens so that we could have a more open immigration policy, keeping in mind that we already have, by far, the most open immigration policy of any first world country. We need a policy overhaul so that we are once again a welcoming shore for those seeking to be free. This family that simply wants to enjoy the liberty to raise their children as they think best should be the last people in the world to ever be considered for deportation.

  • fjsteve

    Kirk,

    Having had a moment to think about this, do you really not see the difference? Truly? Let me help you. Think “asylum”:

    Asylum may be granted to people who are already in the United States and are unable or unwilling to return their home country because of persecution or a well-founded fear of persecution on account of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion.

    Nope. Nothing there about escaping violence or looking for better jobs. By that measure, half the worlds population would qualify for asylum.

    Think also about proportion. Eleven million illegal immigrants looking for better jobs versus how many illegal immigrants looking to escape persecution by the state?

    Don’t you think these cases are just a little different? Doesn’t it seem a little odd that the DHS would take such a keen interest in this case? Or is it easier to just call us racist?

  • Kirk

    @Don

    I know you’re going to hate this, but when it comes to immigration enforcement, to Obama administration has actually deported illegals in far greater numbers than under the previous administration despite that the number of people crossing our borders has slackened since he became president (a stat that, I’m sure, both sides find uncomfortable):

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/27/obama-is-deporting-more-immigrants-than-bush-republicans-dont-think-thats-enough/

    So, all these complaints about enforcement ring a little hollow. But, one of the main talking points for Republicans during the immigration debate has been that along with an easier path to citizenship, existing laws need to be enforced, presumably meaning for deportations. I just find it funny that the tone is so different in this case when it’s been so heartless in the past.

    Personally, I think the Romeikes should be allowed to stay. I sincerely hope that they are. Given the Democrats current stance on immigration, I find it strange that there is such a focus on deporting them back to Germany. But I also find it strange that many on this blog are suddenly so pro-immigration as soon as the issue revolves around homeschooling.

    @fjsteve

    So homeschooling is more fundamental to well being than life or property? Being forced to send your children to public school is worse than not having no job and facing violent drug cartels? I’m not talking about legal consistency, here. I’m talking about consistency of principle. Either you think people should be allowed to come to the States to seek a better life, or you don’t.

  • kerner

    Kirk has beaten me to it, fjsteve:

  • kerner

    DonS:

    “Would that we had reasonable laws regarding the limitation of eligibility for our generous governmental benefits to non-citizens…”

    Yeah. Weirdly enough, those safeguards exist for legal immigrants as a condition of legal status. At least we can probably agree that those conditions should remain a condition of legal status movong forward.

  • kerner

    Carl Vehse @8:

    I forgot to ask you earlier: Do you mean in 1871 or 1990?

  • DonS

    Kirk @ 27: Well, first of all, the point I made is that the administration has a policy not to deport illegals unless they have committed a serious felony. That is true. The issue of whether Obama has deported more than Bush is, frankly irrelevant. Our immigration policy has been screwed up since the previous 1986 amnesty. However, I should note that not everyone believes the Obama administration is comparing apples to apples. According to Senator Lamar Smith, the Obama administration counts removals (those apprehended at the border) as deportations: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/sep/26/obama-puts-illegals-ahead-of-americans/

    We are a country that stands for liberty and freedom. When someone with a documented case of persecution in their home country, because of their efforts to live their lives and raise their children in accordance with their convictions, crosses our shores and requests asylum we should give their request careful and thorough consideration. And if they are being persecuted for doing something that is, in this country, a fundamental constitutional right, we should, absent other extenuating circumstances, grant their request. We should always stand for liberty — it is the reason we are a country unique in the annals of world history.

    Most of the illegals in our country have not requested asylum, so I’m not sure what point you are making in your last paragraph to fjsteve. Coming here merely for economic advantage is certainly not in the same category as coming here for fundamental human liberty. And, though you seem to assume that I am in favor of mass deportations, that is not the case. I am in favor of developing an immigration policy that will loosen, but carefully manage and enforce our laws to ensure that legal immigrants are not disadvantaged relative to illegal immigrants, as they clearly are today. To the extent that we legalize illegals currently in our country, my preference would be that those who, as adults, entered our country knowingly and illegally never be allowed to become citizens. That should be the price for breaking the law. I’m also in favor of strictly limiting governmental benefits to non-citizens. Opportunity, not handouts.

  • Grace

    Kirk @27

    You and others might want to CHECK this out, from the U.S. House of Representatives – Committee on the Judiciary –

    Smith: Administration Cooks the Books to Achieve Deportation Numbers

    August 24, 2012
    “Washington, D.C. – The House Judiciary Committee has obtained internal U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) documents, which show that the Obama administration is cooking the books to achieve their so-called ‘record’ deportation numbers for illegal immigrants and that removals are actually significantly down – not up – from 2009.

    Beginning in 2011, the Committee has learned that Obama administration officials at the Department of Homeland Security started to include numbers from the Alien Transfer Exit Program (ATEP) in its year-end removal numbers. The ATEP is a joint effort between ICE and Customs and Border Protection that transfers illegal immigrants apprehended at the U.S.-Mexico border to another point along the Southwest border for removal. But it is illegitimate to count illegal immigrants apprehended by the Border Patrol along the Southwest border as ICE removals. There are no penalties or bars attached when illegal immigrants are sent back via ATEP and they can simply attempt re-entry.

    http://judiciary.house.gov/news/082412_Administration%20Cooks%20the%20Books.html

  • fjsteve

    Kirk @ 27:

    So homeschooling is more fundamental to well being than life or property? Being forced to send your children to public school is worse than not having no job and facing violent drug cartels? I’m not talking about legal consistency, here. I’m talking about consistency of principle. Either you think people should be allowed to come to the States to seek a better life, or you don’t.

    Is that what your point is? Seemed to me it was about favoring Germans over Mexicans. But, okay, I’ll address this point.

    Let’s word it this way: is being forced to send your kids to a church that mixes Lutheran and Reformed confessions under the umbrella of a state church worse than not having a job in a country where you don’t speak the language and facing sometimes violent discrimination? I think that’s a fair comparison. Yes, to a large number of people around the world, having a government who says “let us teach your kids or we take them away from you” is at least on par with escaping drug violence or finding good work.

  • kerner

    fjsteve:

    I agree that the one is on par with the other, but then your statement becomes a to edged sword, doesn’t it? If people whose churches were being forced into fellowship with the heterodox have a good enough reason to immigrate to America, then it would seem to me that people whose government pursues economic policies confine the poor to grinding poverty, and whose government cannot, or will not, protect them from drug cartels, have an equally good reason to want to immigrate to America. As for a German family whose government tells them their kids must attend German public schools or face criminal penalties, I’m not saying that this is not a good reason to immigrate to America, but I must say that it seems a little less urgent than inescapable poverty and criminal violence.

    So, all the Germans vs. Mexicans rhetoric aside (and I must confess to using it myself) what it comes down to is whether we, as a nation, want to allow immigrants who want to”come to the States to seek a better life” (Kirk’s words).

    Unfortunately, it also comes down to what must we do about the result of our screwed up legal system that is on one level nothing more than a government attempt to control market forces in the unskilled labor market. DonS @31 suggests that people who violated our immigration laws be permanently barred from US citizenship. I can’t go that far. But I do agree that penalties should include a much longer waiting period before citizenship becomes available, along with monetary penalties as well. And anyone who acquires legal status by any such legalization/pathway/amnesty (or whatever we end up calling it) program should be subject to the same kinds of rules agianst being a “public charge” as any other legal immigrant.

  • DonS

    Kerner @ 34:

    If people whose churches were being forced into fellowship with the heterodox have a good enough reason to immigrate to America, then it would seem to me that people whose government pursues economic policies confine the poor to grinding poverty, and whose government cannot, or will not, protect them from drug cartels, have an equally good reason to want to immigrate to America. As for a German family whose government tells them their kids must attend German public schools or face criminal penalties, I’m not saying that this is not a good reason to immigrate to America, but I must say that it seems a little less urgent than inescapable poverty and criminal violence.

    Really, Kerner? You think the direct, specific threats made by German authorities to this one German family, promising that they will be jailed and lose their kids if they continue homeschooling, is “less urgent” than “inescapable poverty and criminal violence”, which is not individualized and which is not the basis of a request for asylum? You know, I spend a lot of time in Mexico, and unless you are a border policeman or a drug runner it’s not any more dangerous than here. And, sheesh, poverty is more compelling than the deprivation of human liberty? Well, on that basis, we had better just admit pretty much the entire continent of Africa, as well as vast swaths of Asia, Eastern Europe, and South and Central America, all of which are faced with “grinding poverty” relative to the U.S.

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 84

    DonS @31 suggests that people who violated our immigration laws be permanently barred from US citizenship. I can’t go that far. But I do agree that penalties should include a much longer waiting period before citizenship becomes available, along with monetary penalties as well.”

    I agree with DonS completely. You don’t live in a border state, you have no idea what it’s like, nor do you understand the BURDEN it places on our state of California. EDUCATION takes a big bite from our taxes. Teachers have to cope with children who don’t know English, who’s parents cannot speak the language, and make little attempt to learn – and then lie and cheat to get here, and stay. The next big issue is HEALTH we pay big time for their FREE health care. The hospitals are not able to absorb the costs.

    Then there is the WELFARE programs and the WELFARE system, which is BUDGING with illegal aliens who have committed a crime. DRUGS are a real issue in our state.

    One of the most ungracious, SLAPS IN THE FACE, is: the mounting disregard for our laws, and the smug way in which the majority of these people feel it their RIGHT to take what isn’t theirs to take. Laws mean nothing to them, the PRISON situation is PROOF –

    The majority of most Americans are uneducated regarding the illegal alien dilemma – they visit California, head to Disneyland, the beach, and Hollywood Blvd. And then believe they have tasted the real California. Of course they don’t pay the taxes, they are not bothered by the crime.

    I once asked someone if they had ever been to California, or really traveled the area, they answered “oh yes, we went to Disneyland and know the streets very well” – Typical remark, and not just from the uneducated, but from those who should know better.

    You and others can try and dissuade us from standing firm regarding the German family who face prison, for not letting their children attend public schools, but remember Kerner, what Hitler said:

    He alone, who owns the youth, gains the Future!
    Adolf Hitler, speech at the Reichsparteitag, 1935

     ‏  ‏  ‏  ‏  ‏  ‏ It can happen again -

     ‏

  • kerner

    Grace:

    “Teachers have to cope with children who don’t know English, who’s parents cannot speak the language, and make little attempt to learn – and then lie and cheat to get here, and stay. The next big issue is HEALTH we pay big time for their FREE health care. The hospitals are not able to absorb the costs. ”

    Well, I going to have to concede that homeschoolers are less likely to cost the state much for education, but the Romeikes, like almost all asylum applicants, must have lied and cheated to get here, because to be admitted as visitors (tourists) they would have had to declare that they intended to return to Germany (a lie). And I would love to know what two free lance piano teachers are doing for health care, but I don’t really know. But you don’t have to live oin a border state to have lots of people sucking up free health care.

    But, the issue is what individuals do, not what some generalized “they” do. My position is that people who want to work and support themselves should be allowed to. And no, I don’t live in a Border state. But there are conservative border states and liberal border states. And as for California, liberalism is by far the biggest problem you have. In Wisconsin we are trying to minimize liberalism, and it may work for us. Nothing can help you until you do the same. Constantly focusing your attention on other things simply distracts from the damage that liberalism causes and prevents you from solving your real problems.

    This is, incidently, a common liberal tactic. To get you to focus on superficial matters (which often involves attacking some generalized “them”, thus getting you to fight with people who could become your friends) rather than to attack the root liberal problem.

  • DonS

    Kerner @ 37:

    …the Romeikes, like almost all asylum applicants, must have lied and cheated to get here, because to be admitted as visitors (tourists) they would have had to declare that they intended to return to Germany (a lie).

    German travelers to the U.S. do not need a visa, just as Americans don’t need a visa to travel to Europe. I’m not sure where you have gathered your information that the Romeikes necessarily lied, or did anything any differently than any other asylum applicant, or why that is somehow worse than entering the country through an unauthorized and forbidden access point. I know from past comments you’ve made that you value liberty a heck of a lot more than you are evidencing on this thread.

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 37

    “Well, I going to have to concede that homeschoolers are less likely to cost the state much for education, but the Romeikes, like almost all asylum applicants, must have lied and cheated to get here, because to be admitted as visitors (tourists) they would have had to declare that they intended to return to Germany (a lie).

    Germany caused this family pain and suffering, just because they want this families children attending the German public school, taught the way the Germans want the children of their country taught, learning EXACTLY the things they want instilled in their minds. – - And the parents said NO. That’s reminiscent of another time in history, ie: 1930′s.

    “He alone, who owns the youth, gains the Future!”
    – Adolf Hitler, speech at the Reichsparteitag, 1935

    Get those families in line, take charge of the minds of the children. Put the parents in jail if they don’t fall into line.

    MARCH!

    You have no proof they “LIED” NONE, not one piece of evidence – You certainly want them returned to Germany to face the their accusers, …. just because they don’t want their children taught in public German schools.

  • tODD

    DonS (@38), come on:

    German travelers to the U.S. do not need a visa, just as Americans don’t need a visa to travel to Europe.

    Yeah, um, not forever! Allow me to quote from the US Embassy site for Germany:

    You may travel visa free if you meet all of the following requirements: … Your intended stay in the US does not exceed 90 days.

    They came here visa-free and were given permission to stay for 90 days. It’s pretty clear that they always intended to overstay their allotted tourist period. They weren’t just here to see Yosemite and the Statue of Liberty and then remembered how horrible things were back home.

    Anyhow, I do think it’s interesting to read Kerner’s comments here, because he’s the one person who (as I recall) actually works in immigration (to some degree) or with immigrants. Everyone else, quite frankly, is using these people to propagate their own pre-existing political beliefs (i.e., “homeschooling good”). And they do so, in my opinion, without much of an eye towards consistency. Which is, I believe, Kerner’s point.

  • Grace

    Kerner

    If you believe asylum to immigrants is a fair practice, why not extend that to the Germans, who actually have a good reason for coming to this country?

    How many millions of illegal aliens, from below the border have lied to sneak across our southern border? Do you know? Right now we have about 11 million, is that enough?

    WHY Kerner would you extend asylum to immigrants from below the border? Illegal aliens are not trustworthy, they lie to come here by the millions, they have no respect for our laws, NONE!

    Those south of the border bring a great deal of grief to the United states.

    DEA

    Drug Enforcement Agency

    “A 2005 DEA study determined that during 2003 and 2004 there were excess U.S. dollars present in Mexico that could not be accounted for from legitimate sources totaling at least $9.2 billion and $10.2 billion, respectively. It is estimated that the four major drugs that are smuggled into the United States from Mexico ( i.e. methamphetamine, heroin, cocaine, and marijuana,) generate as much as $22 billion per year for the sources of supply.

    It’s thought provoking as to WHY you support illegal aliens.

  • Grace

    Kerner

    Below is the LINK for the information I posted above. Read it carefully.

    http://www.justice.gov/dea/ops/money.shtml

    Think of all the pain and suffering caused by DRUGS and CRIME. Don’t forget those who are caught, and now have residence in our prisons.

  • DonS

    tODD @ 40: The point being, of course, that Kerner has no evidence to support his contention that the German family lied to enter the U.S. Yes, they intended to overstay, but have gone through the legally established and acceptable process of applying for asylum, rather than just ….. overstaying. As most illegals who enter legally do. My objection is that our de facto immigration policy, as applied, favors the latter (those who just overstay) over the former (those who try to do things the right way). It’s abhorrent.

  • tODD

    DonS (@43), though they did apply for asylum, yet it is also true that they also overstayed their legal time here. They only applied for asylum after their visa-less time had been expired for a couple days. (And maybe they didn’t know this, but you can apply for asylum while you’re here legally.)

    Kerner has no evidence to support his contention that the German family lied to enter the U.S.

    I feel like you’re being difficult on purpose. Have you ever visited another country? I’ve been to quite a few, all as part of the Visa Waiver Program (i.e., short trips that involved nothing more than a passport and a plane/boat ticket). They all ask you how long you’re going to be there.

    In order for your assertion to be true, an immigration agent would have had to have failed to do his job. Because in order to qualify for the 90-day period under the VWP, the Germans would have had to have proof of a valid return trip. They would have been asked how long they were going to stay. Because that is what every person entering a country on the VWP is asked.
    Maybe the lie this required isn’t a big deal to you, but that’s not the same as saying there was no lie.

    I happen to agree that theirs is a compelling case. Maybe not so much the compulsory education angle, but definitely the threat of having their children taken away. That is a much more direct, active oppression than what people fleeing to our southern border are trying to avoid.

    And yet, it is also true that applying for asylum necessarily involves getting the government’s attention, while merely trying to hide in the country on an expired (“visa-less”) visa often involves the opposite.

  • Grace

    The Berlin Wall is no longer visible, Hitler is dead, but the strident march goes on to DICTATE how Christian parents are to raise their children – it MUST LINE UP with GERMAN RULE, and that dating back to Hitler’s education law of 1938.

    Legalize homeschooling in Germany

    “Since the days of Adolf Hitler’s education law in 1938 homeschooling has not been allowed in Germany but there exists a compulsory school attendance law in every German state. Those who homeschool in Germany have faced outrageous fines in excess of $10,000, had their homes raided by police, lost custody of their children, had their children taken from them by arrogant social workers. Children were removed from homes by social workers and put into government custody”

    http://www.change.org/petitions/parental-rights-legalize-homeschooling-in-germany

    The VIDEO should not be missed. What is the quote from Hitler, why does it ring true, even after the war ended 68 years ago? His edicts still stand!

  • DonS

    tODD @ 44: I’m not trying to be difficult. It seems to me that Kerner is trying to be difficult, to make his point that we should have an immigration policy with essentially no rules or restrictions.

    Yes, I have visited other countries which don’t require visas, including European countries such as the Netherlands, Italy, Spain, and France, as well as those which do, such as Turkey. Sometimes they ask, sometimes they don’t. It’s verbal, in any event, and quite easy to answer without lying, at least explicitly. Are we even sure that they entered the U.S. knowing with certainty that they were going to request asylum? Maybe we do, as I have forgotten all of the circumstances of the case, but I would think that they probably made their final decision to request asylum after entering and consulting with U.S. attorneys about their prospects.

    My point is twofold. One is that we need to fix our immigration system. Right now, we have a system that is broken and upside down. We have an enforcement policy which ignores most of the law, resulting in an administrative policy that is explicitly determined to grant legal status to all current illegal residents, unless they have committed a “serious” felony, while at the same time expending incredible legal resources to send this one particular family back to their home country, despite their specific, documented evidence that they will face persecution there because of their conscientious beliefs and practices related to the raising of their children, which beliefs and practices would be specifically protected under U.S. constitutional law. The nuts part of this is if this family had simply overstayed their visa, without applying for asylum, the same administration that is trying to deport them would have supported granting them legal status.

    At the same time, there are countless legal applicants for residency waiting in their home countries for a U.S. determination.

  • DonS

    Oops. Forgot my second point @ 46. Which is that the specific issue for this family is precisely the kind of liberty issue our country was settled and founded to address. To deport this family is essentially to subvert the very reason the Pilgrims came here in the first place.

  • kerner

    DonS and Grace:

    How do I know the Romeikes lied? Their brief in support of their application for Asylum says so, that’s how. For some reason I can’t cut and paste from it, but go to the link I posted @10, scroll dow2n to page 7 and about a third of the way down page 7 you will find the Romeikes’ lawyer claiming that the Romeikes flew into the airport at Atlanta, and delcared (to the US government) themselves to be visitors (i.e. people who planned to go back home) and were granted permission to stay for 90 days. They could have told the truth and said that they were refugees fleeing religious persecution, but they didn’t. Instead of telling the truth, THEY LIED!!!! That’s my evidence, and I see that tODD has figured that out.

    Now, maybe you don’t think that lying to get into this country is a big deal, but then Grace in particular should quit complaining when other illegals lie to get into the USA as she did @36.

    What I’m asking for is some consistency here.

    And forgive me, but I am not attacking the Romeikes. I’m happy to see them stay here as long as they support themselves, aren’t terrorists or criminals, and stay out of trouble for now on. I have no symapthy for the German government and its determination that all children attend state approved schools, even though that was the law in the United States, complete with criminal penalties and governmental authority to remove children from their parents’ home for “habitual truancy” as recently as 20 years ago. That was a hard fought legal battle in which I personally participated in a small way, and I will not be preached to about it, thank you very much.

    But what you are both basically saying is that it is all right for the Romeikes to lie their way into the United States and otherwise ignore our immigration policy, because you like them and you oppose the German government who opposed them. Well, fine.

    But all I’m saying is that in California, scattered among all the welfare drones and criminals that have the two of you so hot and bothered, are plenty of people who are just as nice as the Romeikes and deserve just as much of a chance to make it here as the Romeikes do. And if we give the Romeikes a break, then we should be giving similar illegal imigrants who can demonstrate some similarity with the Romeikes a similar break.

  • Grace

    Kerner,

    “How do I know the Romeikes lied? Their brief in support of their application for Asylum says so, that’s how. For some reason I can’t cut and paste from it, but go to the link I posted @10, scroll dow2n to page 7 and about a third of the way down page 7 you will find the Romeikes’ lawyer claiming that the Romeikes flew into the airport at Atlanta, and delcared (to the US government) themselves to be visitors “

    I’ve read what you requested on page 7. It does not, in any way proclaim that they “lied” - they may have thought the German Government would change their mind. But it DOES NOT SAY THEY LIED. As a lawyer, you should know better than to accuse without specific proof, of which you don’t have.

    Another point Kerner as you state: “Their brief in support of their application for Asylum says so, that’s how. For some reason I can’t cut and paste from it,”

    You should know better, there is no way that I know of, to copy paste from pdf. Certainly you’ve tried before and it didn’t work. If you really wanted to share and put it in your comment. You could have copied it on your fax copier, then typed it by hand, it isn’t long – then everyone could read it. LOL

    http://www.hslda.org/hs/international/Germany/RomeikeBrief.pdf

  • DonS

    Kerner @ 48: I checked out the brief you linked — it doesn’t say anything other than that they were inspected as Visa Waiver Program applicants and were admitted as visitors, authorized to stay until 11/15/2008. Not sure where you are getting this certainty that they lied from, or why you have taken such an uncharitable approach toward them. Like I said, I haven’t seen anything that indicates that they made a hard and final decision to claim asylum in August, when they entered. It is my experience that those in crisis, as they were, are often very short term thinkers.

    Regardless, they were legally admitted to the country, and promptly at the conclusion of their legal status, they filed for asylum, which is a legally recognized process. You still have failed utterly to explain why it is good policy for the administration to insist that those who overstay their visas without action should remain legally in the country unless they have committed a serious felony, while the Romeikes should be deported.

  • DonS

    Bottom line, Kerner, is that it should never be governmental policy that those who flout the law are better off than those who don’t. And yet that is precisely the status of our current immigration laws, as they are enforced by the current administration (and, yes, I understand that they were enforced just as unlawfully by prior administrations as well, though perhaps not as blatantly so).

  • Grace

    Kerner@ 48

    “But all I’m saying is that in California, scattered among all the welfare drones and criminals that have the two of you so hot and bothered, are plenty of people who are just as nice as the Romeikes and deserve just as much of a chance to make it here as the Romeikes do. And if we give the Romeikes a break, then we should be giving similar illegal imigrants who can demonstrate some similarity with the Romeikes a similar break”

    No Kerner, you know not of what you speak. Those for the majority (below the border) lied from the beginning of their RUN across the southern border. Many who bring hard drugs into this country, which I gave information from the DEA @ 41 – which obviously you’ve avoided reading.

    ✔ Your smug comment “But all I’m saying is that in California, scattered among all the welfare drones and criminals that have the two of you so hot and bothered, are plenty of people who are just as nice as the Romeikes and deserve just as much of a chance

    No that’s not all you’re saying. You don’t know what you’re talking about regarding California. You’re in an office in the mid-west with little to NO clue as to the situation here.

  • kerner

    In order to be admitted as a visitor you have to declare your intention to return home. If the Romeike’s did not intend to return home, they could have said so, but they instead claimed to be tourists. I have represented numerous asylum applicants, mostly successfully, and most of them do exactly what the Romeikes apparently did. They get into the United States somehow, usually by lying in some way or another, and then later come forward and tell the truth. They don’t want to go back because of the persecution they would receive if they did. Almost 80% of asylum applications are denied, by the way. And, in some of my more recent cases (after a year or two of litigation), I have found other, easier to get, relief for clients rather than take the chance that they will be denied asylum, as the Romeikes were by the Board of Immigration Appeals.

    I repeat, AGAIN, that I want the Romeikes to win their case, and I hope the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals grants them that relief, but if that doesn’t work, I also hope one of their lawwyers is smart enough to find some other form of relief that will allow them to stay. If that happens, it will almost certainly be one of those programs that is routinely decried by the political Right. And that will be the final irony in the Romeikes’s case.

    Yeah, DonS @47, you have a point about the Pilgrims and why they came here. But that isn’t why my aancestors came here per se. My great grandfather, Karel Kerner, left Bohemia to avoid being conscripted into the Austro-Hungarian army, so he could get a better job working on the docks in Chicago. His soon to be wife, Josefa, left Bohemia and immigrated to Chicago primarily to get what seemed to her a good job: working as a housemaid. After they married, they worked hard, saved their money, and opened a knife-making and cabinetry business. Most of my other ancestors had similar stories of leaving their old countries and coming to America to work hard for a better life.

    It is possible that among them were a few who had some story of individual persecution, but most of them were just poor people living in countries where the poor stayed poor, and they wanted to go somewhere that would give them the opportunity to do better.

    That’s the way America was in those days. There were no quotas (at least not for the countries they came from). All an immigrant had to do was prove that he “was unlikely to become a public charge” (which generally involved getting a financial sponsorship of some kind) proving you weren’t a revolutionarry or criminal of some kind, proving that you didn’t have any serious diseases, and staying out of trouble once you got here. There was no such thing as a prohibition against (there were no such things as work permits until the mid 1960s) working without permission, because supporting oneself was the whole point of coming here.

    Today our immigration system has so many restrictions on immigrating that it would be almost impossible for most of my ancestors to come to America. Again, that is a result of the social engineering of the 1960′s. And while I do believe that everyone should still have to satisfy the older standards of self-sufficiency, honesty, decent health and not being terrorists, I really think the large number of illegals here today has a lot more to do with market based demands for their services (like my ancestors, a lot of them are unskilled laborers and maids) than any other factor. Laws that attempt to restrict market forces for social engineering purposes are doomed to failure, so fussing over their inevitable failure seems to me to miss the point. Letting immigrants enter to work and purusue a better life should never have been illegal in the first place.

  • kerner

    I apoligize for my many typos. Someday I’ll learn to type.

  • Grace

    Kerner 53

    “In order to be admitted as a visitor you have to declare your intention to return home. If the Romeike’s did not intend to return home, they could have said so, but they instead claimed to be tourists.”

    NO Kerner the pdf says “they were admitted as vistors” – there is nothing in the pdf, page 7, that states tourists – go back and read it again. You’re playing word games – LOL
    http://www.hslda.org/hs/international/Germany/RomeikeBrief.pdf

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 54 “I apoligize for my many typos. Someday I’ll learn to type.”

    Why bother, hire a secretary or better yet get a paralegal. :lol:

  • DonS

    Kerner @ 53: Specifically, as I recall and remember it, the Visa waiver program requires you to have purchased round trip airline tickets, which is evidence of your intent to return home. However, you are still speculating — there is nothing in the brief you cited to evidence that the Romeikes had a firm intention to overstay their visa and apply for asylum when they entered the country. As Grace said above, it may have been their intention to continue working with German officials from the temporary safety of the U.S., hoping that their status in Germany would change so that they could timely return. We simply don’t know what they did or said, not that it’s necessarily dispositive or important to what the outcome of this case should be.

    Does it not strike you as odd that the administration policy is to oppose deportation of illegal residents of the country unless they have committed a serious felony, yet it is actively advocating deportation for this family? Presumably, if the family simply disappeared now, the administration would shift its stance and stop trying to deport them? That is the absurd state in which we find ourselves.

    Again, I don’t think I am “hot and bothered” because I happen to live in a state heavily impacted by illegal immigrants. I am seriously bothered by our government’s utter disregard for the rule of law, and its elevation of the interests of illegal immigrants over those of legal applicants for immigration. The system is certainly, as you say, a disaster, but it is what it is until our lawmakers change it, and the administration’s responsibility is to uniformly enforce it as it exists. In the meantime, we should fix it. We should do so in a way that ensures that legal immigrants are prioritized, and that those who entered illegally, while likely being granted some form of permanent residency, are never advantaged over those who have not broken our immigration laws. Denying them citizenship, unless they leave and apply properly, seems like a reasonable compromise, though you apparently disagree. The other thing we need to do is ensure that those who enter our country, legally or illegally, contribute more than they take, by limiting their eligibility for government benefits and ensuring that the burden for those benefits the federal government mandates to be granted (such as hospital care and public education) is fairly distributed throughout the nation.

  • kerner

    Grace:

    There are only two kinds of visitors under immigration law. Visitors for business, which the Romeikes were obviously not, and “visitors for pleasure” (aka “tourists”)**. I’m not playing word games, “tourist” is just the colloquial word for the purpose for which they were admitted. Say “tourist visa” or “tourist status” to anyone who is familiar with visas and they will know you mean B-2 visitor for pleasure status.

    And we may not know what the Romeikes did or said with exact precision. You can hide behind that if it makes you feel better. Go ahead and pretend that the Romeikes were hoping that the Germans government was going to reverse its established jurisprudence between August 17 and November 15, 2008. It won’t have ay effect on how this case turns out, as you say. And that means it would take a private detective to ferret out every conversation they had to prove anything positively. And I’m not going to do that. But these are the kinds of lies and violations that refugees tell or engage in all the time to get into the position from which they can apply for asylum. There is no reason to think otherwise here, but maybe, just maybe this one time nobody told any lies, even implicitly, to get into the US to apply for asylum.

    And DonS, I repeat, the heavy impact you feel is socialism. The illegals are a by-product.

    **sometimes B-2 can also mean for medical treatment, but that does not apply either.

  • kerner

    And no, it does not strike me as “odd” that the Obama administration has decided to pursue the deportation of immigrants whom the administration is unlikely to be able to manipulate into government dependence. It strikes me as all too tragically common, and intentional.

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 56 “And we may not know what the Romeikes did or said with exact precision. You can hide behind that if it makes you feel better. Go ahead and pretend that the Romeikes were hoping that the Germans government was going to reverse its established jurisprudence between August 17 and November 15, 2008.

    You do not know, and neither do I – however, I bet they hoped that the German government would change their mind. This has been an on-going effort on the behalf of Germans homeschooling their children from 2006 and earlier. There is always hope, but perhaps to hope Germany might change their mind is HOPELESS – They want their citizens to march steel/lock/step, regarding education. Hitler felt the same way as he stated for all to hear:

    He alone, who owns the youth, gains the Future!”

     ‏  ‏ – Adolf Hitler, speech at the Reichsparteitag, 1935

    Hitler made his mark, as he instituted his education law back in 1938 – and it still stands today!

     ‏

  • Grace

    Kerner you certainly are strident over this couple who wishes to homeschool. It makes me wonder WHY you’re so determined. These people have not lied, no matter how hard you try to twist the words within the pdf file page 7. You’re wrong, – it’s not clever -

  • kerner

    I’m not being strident about this couple. I’m being strident about the of equally sympathetic immigrants who you routinely call liars and cheats and lump together as an undefined “Them” as though they aren’t individuals.

    Look at what you said:

    “How many millions of illegal aliens, from below the border have lied to sneak across our southern border? Do you know? Right now we have about 11 million, is that enough?

    WHY Kerner would you extend asylum to immigrants from below the border? Illegal aliens are not trustworthy, they lie to come here by the millions, ”

    First of all, the border jumpers don’t lie, because they don’t see an immigration officer at all. Second, about 35% or more of illegals are overstays, but the majority of them do not come from south of the border. The overstays, who have done something dishonest, come here from overseas, and like the Romeikes, they represent one intention while secretly having a long term stay in mind. I suppose that a very small number actually intend to go back and then change their minds, but in my experience that is really rare. But since the government canniot prove anything, nobody does anything about it.

    But most important, you talk about all 11 million of these people as though you know them personally, when you only know them as a group. You have no idea at all which ones are running drugs and which ones just want to work and live and raise their children in a free country. And you don’t care. You only know that you don’t like the present situation and you are perfectly willing to throw the good out with the bad.

    Until now. The Romeikes have made you notice seven German illegals who just want to live here in peace and freedom. Them you care about. Now if I can just get you to see other illegals as individuals maybe I will have accomplished something.

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 62

    “Until now. The Romeikes have made you notice seven German illegals who just want to live here in peace and freedom. Them you care about. Now if I can just get you to see other illegals as individuals maybe I will have accomplished something.

    Everyone is an “individual” that isn’t the problem. The problem is; the ones you want to help are illegal by lying, cheating, crossing our borders to TAKE what DOESN’T BELONG TO THEM, using our education system, to enhance their lives. Those who cheat and lie don’t deserve what they take from us, and that includes medical health benefits as well. It’s not their’s to take, nor is it honest. However you can’t see it.

    Maybe you like the German way better – 0bviously you don’t care that these people, who came here legally, have been treated terribly. Hitler would probably be delighted that his 1938 ruling is still in effect in Germany, and there are American’s like you, who find no fault in his hatefulness against homeschooling.

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 62

    “But most important, you talk about all 11 million of these people as though you know them personally, when you only know them as a group.

    That’s corny Kerner, REALLY CORNY! I don’t know two thousand people personally. Is this your playground 3rd grade approach to arguing your case? What a hoot!

    “You have no idea at all which ones are running drugs and which ones just want to work and live and raise their children in a free country. And you don’t care. You only know that you don’t like the present situation and you are perfectly willing to throw the good out with the bad.”

    OOPS, there you go again. I don’t want liars, cheaters living here under the pretense of being legal. If they will lie and cheat, they will find other ways to continue that pattern. Some people lie, just to get what they want, they don’t care about laws, they care about what they want, with a line of excuses to fill the entire post on this thread.

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 62

    First of all, the border jumpers don’t lie, because they don’t see an immigration officer at all.

    You’re RIGHT, they don’t see an “immigration officer” because they are either going over, or under a fence, OR they flee over open land running over the border. You didn’t think that through did you?

    Kerner, we don’t have a line of “immigration officers” the length of all the borders states – you do know that right? LOL

    “Second, about 35% or more of illegals are overstays, but the majority of them do not come from south of the border. The overstays, who have done something dishonest, come here from overseas, and like the Romeikes, they represent one intention while secretly having a long term stay in mind.

    PROVE IT, with government statistics. Ya had to get the “Romeikes” in there. You don’t know what their “secretly” thinking at all, you’ve made it up, and a poor story it is!

  • Grace

    I would love to see you argue a case in a Southern CA court of law, with some of your tactics, shown on this thread.

    If it were legal, I could sell tickets to the event and make a mint, the laughter and hooting would be hilarious.

  • DonS

    Unfortunately, Kerner @ 59, the gist of this thread has spun out of control.

    I think you and I have had a good conversation, and hopefully I have made my point clear. I bear no ill will to those illegals in our country, almost all of them, who simply came here to have a better life. I have no desire to deport them, nor to punish them in any way other than: 1) to deny them the benefits of socialism you reference @ 58, 2) to deny citizenship to those who knowingly came into the country illegally (I have no objection to permanent residency, but there should be consequences to illegal action and this would ensure a) that legal immigrants are better off than illegal ones, and b) that politicians would not be motivated to legalize illegal immigrants for the cynical purpose of gaining their votes).

    You said @ 62:

    First of all, the border jumpers don’t lie, because they don’t see an immigration officer at all. Second, about 35% or more of illegals are overstays, but the majority of them do not come from south of the border. The overstays, who have done something dishonest, come here from overseas, and like the Romeikes, they represent one intention while secretly having a long term stay in mind. I suppose that a very small number actually intend to go back and then change their minds, but in my experience that is really rare. But since the government canniot prove anything, nobody does anything about it.

    Again, we don’t know what the Romeikes’ intention was when they entered the country. You are speculating, without grounds. However, your statement “…since the government cannot prove anything, nobody does anything about it” is odd. What do you mean by that? You can deport someone who overstays their visa. Shouldn’t that be done, on a routine basis? Isn’t that the law? Yet it specifically IS NOT done, by policy.

    You have not really addressed my point that, while the administration is fighting to deport the Romeikes now, by policy it would change its stance 180 degrees were the Romeikes simply to disappear and overstay without the asylum request. Which, of course, is an absurd position for our country to take.

  • Grace

    There are those who do project Christianity into, and unto other religions. However, if they choose to do so, it won’t stand up to HOLY Scripture.

    Anyone who knows what the Bible says, understands the Trinity, the Cross, Salvation, faith – is not able, if they believe the Bible to “project” anything other than the God of the Bible, which does not encompass any other god, nor does it mean that we share their beliefs, or they share ours.

    I accept that those who really believe in Christ as Savior, the only Savior, and sacrifice for our sins, is becoming scarce.

    Have we not read in Revelation 1 through 3, the seven churches? If you have, then you understand.

    Did Jesus not state clearly the way was “narrow”? – and “few there be that find it” ?

    Then turning back to Jesus Christ’s words in Matthew:

    13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    Matthew 7

    We need to step back and read carefully, what Jesus spoke clearly. This is the problem, many people are shocked at the events we see today in the church. Yes we are shocked, but the Bible tells us that “Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    FEW THAT BE THAT FIND IT – that’s the “LEADETH into LIFE” part – which a great many people dismiss.

  • Grace

    Sorry, wrong thread.

  • kerner

    DonS:

    :You have not really addressed my point that, while the administration is fighting to deport the Romeikes now, by policy it would change its stance 180 degrees were the Romeikes simply to disappear and overstay without the asylum request. Which, of course, is an absurd position for our country to take.

    I haven’t really addressed that point because I agree with it. The Obama administration’s behavior on this issue is politically motivated, pure and simple, and the Roeikes don’t fit the profile of who the administration wants.

    the gist of this thread has spun out of control.”

    Right again, unfortunately. Because having a reasonable conversation on this issue is important.

    we don’t know what the Romeikes’ intention was when they entered the country. You are speculating, without grounds. However, your statement “…since the government cannot prove anything, nobody does anything about it” is odd. What do you mean by that?

    Look, I cannot get the kind of legal “grounds” that would satisfy a court without personally cross examining the Romeikes, or having them investigated. But the World magazine article describes them as having “fled” Germany. I can tell you from about 30 years of experience interviewing people who entered this country as visitors that some of them do so with the deceptive intent to stay permanently. And for those who are “fleeing persecution” in their home countries, that perhaps benign deception is practically universal. So, based on my long and specialized training and experience, it is my opinion that the Romeikes almost certainly deceived the immigration officers they met in Atlanta when they were admitted. As an attorney, you know that such an opinion has evidentiary value.

    But it has little relevance to the Romeikes legal case, because that kind of benign deception is never raised, in my experience, by those who adjudicate asylum claims, or almost any adjustment claims. But it has relevance to this discussion because some here treat any deception or breach of “our laws” as a reason to become implaccably opposed to “amnesty” for that breach. I am trying to point out that we are all, including you and myself, willing to give the Romeikes a pass for the somewhat fraudulent manner of their entry. And from there, I argue that perhaps we shouldn’t get so very, and legalistically, insistant that other illegals should be denied “amnesty” without exception. You don’t have to agree with me, but that’s my position. Your reaction has been to say that I have no proof that there was anything fraudlent about the Romeikes entry, and I think your position is intentionally naive so as to not have to back down from your hard line on the other illegals. Again, you don’t have to agree with me.

  • DonS

    Kerner @ 70: Thanks for your response.

    The lying issue has been vastly exaggerated on this thread. Neither of us really know whether they lied, nor does it really matter with respect to the overarching issue of asylum. I think you made the original accusation in an effort to draw some kind of moral equivalence between the Romeikes and those who enter the country illegally, but that d9esn’t really work. The bottom line is that they are doing things the right way, while those who simply cross the border illegally and stay, or just overstay their visa, with no intention to come clean with the U.S. government are clearly not. Assuming the Romeikes lied, and then requested asylum, and assuming other entrants on a tourist visa lie, then disappear, the second case is worse than the first. There’s no legitimate argument there. If you believe otherwise, then we profoundly disagree.

    That said, I am not one who “treat[s] any deception or breach of ‘our laws’ as a reason to become implaccably opposed to ‘amnesty’ for that breach.” This is not an issue of the definition of sin, where any sin, regardless of grade, is sufficient to break fellowship with our Lord and require the propitiation afforded by our Savior’s shed blood. This is the real world, where there are grades of malfeasance. Even assuming the Romeikes weren’t entirely truthful with the immigration officer when they legally entered the country, as to their future intentions, they didn’t flout the law. They are proceeding through a legal process, and they have made their presence in this country beyond the expiration of their tourist status known to authorities. That is a difference in kind from those who knowingly and deliberately flout our laws by entering (legally or illegally), and then disappearing and staying illegally without accountability to the authorities. Worse yet is an enforcement apparatus which not only enables this lawbreaking, but encourages and prioritizes it.

    My only point is that we need to fix the laws, and hold the authorities accountable to enforce them. Willing failure to do so should be grounds for dismissal and liability. Those who knowingly disobey our laws should suffer real consequences, and most certainly shouldn’t be prioritized over those who obey them. Just because we don’t like a law is no excuse, as you, a Lutheran, should particularly know. And regardless of what we think about immigration, we do have an important national security interest in knowing who enters our country, and who resides in it. If nothing else, 9/11 should have taught us that.

  • corneliatimothy3

    My mothers neighbour is working part time and averaging $9000 a month. I’m a single mum and just got my first paycheck for $6546! I still can’t believe it. I tried it out cause I got really desperate and now I couldn’t be happier. Heres what I do,..☛☛☛►►►ℬuzz70.ℂOℳ☛☛☛☛☛

  • chicago dyke

    this was a very entertaining thread. thank you. i have difficulty sleeping and enjoy reading conversations as heated as this while i’m up late at night.

    i work in college admissions. i know all about it, and what qualifies a student for admission.

    i have many strong opinions about public schooling, and i approve of homeschooling, even though i am a liberal. i have met many fine homeschooled children who are as well or better qualified as public and private school-educated applicants. if i were a mother, and could not afford a fine private school, i would likely homeschool.

    i am also friends with a bunch of Germans. it’s different over there, and for good reason, as many of you have pointed out. they fear right leaning social trends, and for good reason. Hilter was an extreme right wing leader who brought their nation to near ruin. they have laws on the books that seem extreme to americans for this reason. even if this law was from the Nazi era, it can be applied and interpreted in many ways. that is what is happening here.

    i do not agree that this couple’s children should be taken away from them, however. i know the schools in Germany are very good, but i agree with those of you here who say it’s going to far to take them away. the fact that they are “illegal” immigrants in america or whatever shouldn’t be important either. they deserve a chance to school their children and enjoy religious freedom and i bet they would be productive members of american society, if given that chance.

    i do agree with other posters, however: why are these people so important, where hispanic or african immigrant families rarely become the topic of blogs like these? this is a Christian blog, right? i’m pretty sure Christ wouldn’t care if a family was fleeing because of persecution due to religion, race, or sexual orientation. he would say, “take comfort, and have peace.”

    i am somewhat amused by the way people here are so angry about the money spent on immigrants in schools and hospitals in america. it’s very clear that a lot of you don’t know some facts. ours is a rich nation, “blessed by god” as many of you would say. all we have to do is properly tax large corporations (many of whom pay none, like ford and amazon) and the very wealthy individuals living off of investments and inheritances. it’s simple, really. you pay your taxes, don’t you? well, they should too.

    we don’t have to agree on religion or politics to agree on that simple step, which could overnight transform our nation into one where no one wants for food, shelter or peace. including the undocumented/illegal immigrants. it’s also the case that we could jumpstart the american domestic economy if we just let in a larger number of immigrants. we could set criteria, such that they must come with a certain amount of money and skill and not be “on welfare,” but this is a large planet and a LOT of well off people would like to live here. let them come, and create businesses and jobs. they would love the opportunity and be productive members of society.

  • Lum

    When the Romeikes were still living in Germany, Mike Donnelly from HSLDA came to them and said they should come to the USA. He was it, who convinced the family to leave Germany and move to the USA and ask for asylum there. HSLDA is searching all the time for some homeschoolers they can use for their big headline getting homeschooling cases and the Romeikes were perfect for this in their opinion. A white, middle class, Evangelical family simply get more sympathy in the USA, than for example a black, poor, Muslim family.

    Of course the Romeikes could have avoided all this. They easily could have send their children to a private Christian school in Germany. And the classes aren’t so long in Germany by the way. Younger children are back from school at midday, older children go to school usually until 1-2 pm. So parents have enough time to teach their children whatever they want, for example the bible in detail, in the afternoon.

    And if that was still not Christian enough for them, they could have simply moved to Austria, which allows homeschooling. The Romeikes lived in Southern Germany before, so it wasn’t far away. EU citizens can move freely in the EU and can easily work in other countries. They also speak German in Austria, so the Romeikes didn’t even have to overcome a language barrier. And they could have made here and there a day trip to Germany to visit friends and wider family members living in Germany.

    Instead of this their children are suffering for years, because of the legal battles their parents publicly fought and still fight. HSLDA is not making it better, because they really crave publicity at all costs. I really don’t think the parents are acting in the interest of their children and I feel sorry for them. They are more interested in becoming some kind of martyrs, than to ensure a peaceful life for their children.


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