Test of Faith … Is Evolution a Random Process? (RJS)

Statement 1:
The evolutionary process is an efficient search algorithm optimizing for specific functions.

Statement 2:
It has nothing to do with design, a designer…

Just my opinion, but those two statements are contradictory. But I have a regular job and I’ll leave it at that for the rest of the day.

Dan – Take a look at “Darwin’s Dangerous Idea” by Daniel Dennett. He explains the concept of an algorithm as used here. (As noted recently here, it makes sense to study what proponents of an idea actually say.)

Ray (#3), thanks for the link to RJS’s previous post. That was excellent counsel for engaging in this level of conversation. Does this illustration work for evolutionary convergence? We pour water on a mild inclined hill covered with rocks. We watch the water make its way down. There is no *design* to the flow, but a seeking for the suitable path around the obstacles. The problem is: If we rewind the tape and pour the water again, the path most probably will not be the same.

“If we rewind the tape and pour the water again, the path most probably will not be the same.”

Perhaps not exactly, but (1) it will always end up at the bottom of the hill; and (2) if this experiment is repeated often enough there will be one (or a few) paths that will predominate (otherwise there would be no such thing as rivers, the Grand Canyon, etc.).

Likewise with evolution, playing the tape again might not yield exactly the same solution, but there would be a number of common elements. That, as I understand it, is what is being proposed here.

copy and paste failed me on previous post

RJS,

Thanks for continuing to introduce subjects such as this. I’ve read Morris’s book and I find his examination of recurring and duplicating themes within biological life fascinating. When coupled with the recognition of the near extinction of life on planet earth a couple of time then it becomes self-evident that there is an unseen hand at work to bring us to fruition. It’s not randomness as we might like to think of such, but randomness that is producing beautiful flowers of life in so many different ways. When you think of the physical catastrophes’ regarding planet earth that have been needed to bring us to the pinnacle it becomes a breathtaking and highly suspenseful story. If we had intercepted life and stepped back in time 65 million years ago who would have thought those little mammals that survived that holocaust would hold within them the seeds for our presence. The glacial ages coming and going have all worked together for the good for His Good purpose and timing.

Rom 11:33-34 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

“The evolutionary process is an efficient search algorithm optimizing for specific functions.”

“Efficient” is a tricky term. Can you blame one for thinking that the evolutionary process is rather inefficient relative to the other possibilities at God’s own disposal?

“I assume that what we see is the optimal choice for God’s own purpose.”

How does this assumption interact with your assessment of efficiency? Efficiency, I take it, is a somewhat relative term. Whether a given process is “efficient” depends on the available alternatives for achieving the same end. Now, by dismissing many alternatives to the evolutionary process via the assumption that such alternatives are unavailable to God (by virtue of their assumed sub-optimality), one can greatly shorten the distance to the conclusion that the evolutionary process is efficient. But what an assumption!

Has anyone done any thinking or made a connection between openness theology and the top of this discussion? I’m not expret in either science or theology, but from my arm chair, I see a lot of similarities. Does what is being observed in nature by scientists inform our understanding of God’s nature and how he “runs” the universe, including how he deals with humans and their wills and choices? Just thinking out-loud…

RJS,

No one denies that we can be mistaken about efficiency. My first observation is that efficiency claims involve assumptions about available alternatives. My second observation is that available alternatives presumably change if we introduce God. My third observation is that any continued insistence by the theist that the evolutionary process is still efficient (still efficient, that is, in light of every alternative available to God) is not simply based on the empirical evidence.

Since claims about efficiency do involve assumptions about the available alternatives, and–at least for the theist–the claim here about available alternatives is a claim about available alternatives to God, your claim about the efficiency of the evolutionary process involves assumptions about God. In particular, they assume severe restrictions on what God can do.

One way to avoid such assumptions is to severely qualify your efficiency claim, perhaps restricting it to a claim about efficiency relative, e.g., to other naturalistic or man-made processes. Such qualifications would of course reduce much of the claim’s punch, at least towards building a case for the compatibility of traditional theism and evolution (and not just towards making a very minor point about evolution and one sense of “randomness”). Since that stronger goal, I take it, is not your intention here, such a qualification might be exactly the thing to add (or at least clarify).

RJS,

But again, no one is claiming that you are *trying* to do any of this. The observations are rather about what assumption and implications that your claims do in fact imply (i.e., regardless of what you are trying to do). As I suggest, given what you are actually trying to do, it seems perfectly advisable to explicitly qualify your claims about the efficiency of the evolutionary process so as to avoid the undesirable and indefensible implications (unless, of course, you do want to tie your efficiency claim to your “theistic assumption” on “another level”–in which case, my critical warnings will probably come into play again).

RJS –

Likewise, would it matter if we had a pouch?

There are insects that inseminate once, when the female is juvenile, and she stores the sperm for the rest of her life. There are other insects that literally pierce the female with horrifying spiked genitalia in what’s called – accurately, I’m afraid – “traumatic insemination”.

It’s not a huge stretch to imagine combining those traits. What if we reproduced by child rape? Would that matter?

Operationally, Free Will and Randomness present the same kind of problem to Christians regarding God’s ability to plan and control.

The argument against Evolution:
If Nature can truly can determine its own fate by contingent processes, then God can not plan nor control the outcome. This would be true for every roll of the dice as well as every genetic mutation.

The argument against Free Will:
If Man can truly can determine his own fate by an autonomously, then God can not plan nor control the outcome. This would be true for every decision made by every human being throughout history.

But others see things differently:
“it is important to note that, according to the Catholic understanding of divine causality, true contingency in the created order is not incompatible with a purposeful divine providence. Divine causality and created causality radically differ in kind and not only in degree. Thus, even the outcome of a truly contingent natural process can nonetheless fall within God’s providential plan for creation. According to St. Thomas Aquinas: “The effect of divine providence is not only that things should happen somehow, but that they should happen either by necessity or by contingency. Therefore, whatsoever divine providence ordains to happen infallibly and of necessity happens infallibly and of necessity; and that happens from contingency, which the divine providence conceives to happen from contingency” (Summa theologiae, I, 22,4 ad 1).

rjs#32, how can you do that with a straight face?

rjs, it is clear that the traits that Ray is talking about are physical adaptations while your example of cannibalism is strictly a behavior adaptation. We all know that behavioral adaptations not illustrative of evolution. Ray is talking about physical adaptations that would warrant ….. something.

Well, that’s the best I can do.

DRT –

Ray is talking about physical adaptations that wuld warrant…

…that would warrant a rather radical difference in relations between the sexes, not to mention between adults and children, than obtains among humans as they are constituted.

Look up “traumatic insemination” in Wikipedia, and you can see things like this even in mammals. There are squirrels where the male, after mating, ejaculates a substance that literally glues the female shut – apparently to deny other males a shot, so to speak. This is at a ‘level’ rather different from the insects, if I understand RJS’s meaning of ‘level’ correctly. (Let alone naked mole rats…)

RJS – I didn’t say it was ‘traumatic insemination’, but I would say it trends in that direction. As the article points out, one evolutionarily-stable ‘response’ is to develop more aggressive means of insemination.

The point being that biology isn’t exactly destiny, but it sure has a lot of implications and consequences, and while I’m delighted with our existing mating patterns (and equipment), they weren’t mandated by any physical or biological constraints I’m aware of.

Anna –

Of course, another evolutionary response is for females to develop strategies to avoid trauma.

Such as here: http://scienceblogs.com/grrlscientist/2007/05/a_reproductive_arms_race_betwe.php

(Also an example of a rather dramatically different mating regime at a high ‘level’.)

Also, what constitutes child rape versus what constitutes a reproductive strategy is in the eye of the beholder.

DRT already pointed out – rather explicitly – the difference between varied behavioral options and physical adaptations that – to repeat the very specific word I’ve used – mandate particular strategies.

Humans have the option to be gentle or not. Not every species has that choice available. Take a look at the picture here: http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/2009/03/horrific_beetle_sex_-_why_the_most_successful_males_have_the.php

Again, the point is that while it’s very likely that evolution will produce things like pairs of lensed eyes, or pairs of ears, there are other factors – fundamental ones – that seem to be a lot more variable and not mandated by any natural constraint.

If you want to play around with some of these ideas, consider a game — you start with two randomly selected letters and then randomly change one or two of them. Repeat the process until you arrive at a word found in your dictioary. Now add a random third letter and begine the process again until you find a three-letter dictionary word. Continue adding letters until you get tired. Now start with a different random two letters and repear the exercise. You will likely not get the same sequence of dictionary words.

The dictionary is our value function and randomly changing some number of letters is our mutation engine. “Viable” mutations must be dictionary words. Even in this simple game, there are patterns that are more likely to lead to dictionary words (e.g., in English, two consonants separated by a vowel).

For a theistic view, imagine that youa re the oracle standing outside the game and control the random number sequence used to pick the letters that are changed at each iteration. To the player, the selection appears to be random (a very slippery term, BTW, but let’s assume it just means that the player cannot reliably predict the next value the oracle supplies). You can roduce any arbitrary word you choose in any sequence you choose.

As the player within the game, you cannot prove the existence of the oracle. A rationalist would reject the existence of the oracle because the game works just fine without the oracle and a game without an oracle is a simpler explanation. If s/he were philosophically honest, s/he would say it is impossible to know if the oracle exists and leave it at that.

I look at life on this planet and see the fingerprints of God everywhere (a conclusion of faith) while some see the fortuitous interaction of stochastic processes over a long timescale.

– Ishmael

RJS,

I have checked out of most of these conversations over the last few months because they seems to me to be retreading old ground. However, this particular post caught my attention. I think this is a great contribution to the discussion. And you’re right, sometimes unchecked assumptions can be really problematic. Sometimes completely fresh soil can be exposed by introducing an idea that questions an unconsidered (or less than adequately considered) assumption. And I think you’re right that “random = no god/creation” is an assumption that’s right at the top of the list in terms of its importance.