She’s having an affair with her pastor’s wife

mask rabbit and horse mask lesbian couple at home

Got this in yesterday. My response is below it.

Dear John,

I just have to tell someone I don’t know and someone I trust will give good advice as this is gnawing at me and there’s not going to be much left at this rate of erosion.

I am a lesbian, not openly so, and I am the mistress of my pastor’s wife. We became friends, then good friends, and then one time whilst sitting on the couch I leant across to get some nachos, brushed her thigh in doing so and rather than enjoying the infusion of cheese, salsa and chips, I got the most perfect kiss.

I truly do love her but I know that we are in a pickle, as Shakespeare aptly said. We’re in a fundamentalist church in a conservative area and I don’t want to be the source of pain for her children. I can’t imagine not having her in my life but I fear that my selfishness will ruin hers. My dream is to be with her, openly and freely. She shares that dream with me, yet neither of us have the courage to take the plunge. I don’t want to simply have stolen moments. I want to love her wholly.

I don’t know what to do. I’m confused but I know she is more. Please help us both, in anyway you can. It’ll be greatly appreciated.

God bless, …

Love is a beautiful thing. Adulterous love, however, is not. Adulterous love is based upon lies, and love and lying go together like peaches and boric acid.

If you really love the woman, don’t make a liar out of her. Don’t do that to her, her children, her husband, your church, or yourself. Continuing your affair is like planting a bomb under her house—and then standing on the porch until the thing explodes. No good. Only harm and destruction can result.

Your love with her is either real or it’s not. If it’s real, it will wait until she has done the right thing, and is free from her marriage. If it’s not real, then your affair is only what amounts to fun. And fun is no reason to destroy lives.

If your goal is to be with her “openly and freely,” then you must break it off with her until she has been open with her husband, and is free of him.

Shun the drama, let love be love, and honor that love by refusing to steep it in lies and deception. The rest is up to her. Tell her that you won’t be with her until she’s left her husband (not that that will be easy: I’m familiar with the dynamics of Christian fundamentalism and its churches), and you’ll find out how real the love between you really is. And isn’t that something you’d rather know sooner than later?

[UPDATE]: The woman who wrote me the letter just sent me an email. It reads:

Dear John,

Thank you for answering my letter and for the advice. I felt the need to comment back to those who responded, to both clear up a few things and to thank them. I could not work out how to post anonymously on your blog and it’s something I really need to keep safe, not just for myself. Would it be possible to post this comment somewhere please? I’d be grateful.

Thank you all for your comments, advice and input. I’ve tracked the comments across Facebook and here. It’s not been an easy read, but worthwhile things are often worthwhile because they’re challenging. I didn’t realize I would cause such a ruckus either, so I apologize to anyone offended or incensed through my letter.

My heart deep down knew what John’s advice would be, I suppose it just needed confirmation and a bit of a kick. I will attempt to end the affair, sooner rather than later. I know that my actions are causing hurt, something that love is not meant to do.

There was no “hitting on” one another, from either side. [Some jagweed pastor on my FB page responded to this post with the thoughtful, “The lesbian woman needs to get lost and find someone else to hit on who is not married and does not have children!”, which I just deleted.] It was stumbled into. I admit, I am a flirt and I probably gave out signals but I did not know that she is a lesbian until the first kiss.

I know having an affair is wrong and messy and ends up hurting people, but such knowledge doesn’t stop people from committing sin, like it didn’t stop me. As bad as it may sound, I will be honest and state that I do not regret the physical side of our “relationship” nor falling in love with her. She is a beautiful woman who is trapped and ultimately, I may not be able to free her, more just reinforcing the fact that she is caught up in something that is difficult to escape.

I will be sharing this post with her when I tell her since I feel that there is also good advice here for her too. Thank you all again.

Thank you for being honest and direct. It’s good advice that I will do my utmost to act out.

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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • “Shun the drama, let love be love, and honor that love by refusing to steep it in lies and deception.” Best advice ever.

  • Erin Leigh Mathes

    “Tell her that you won’t be with her until she’s left her husband, and
    you’ll find out how real the love between you really is. And isn’t that
    something you’d rather know sooner than later?”

    Probably not. I grew up in that kind of repressive community, and there is no way to gracefully do what you are suggesting. At best, they will both end up shunned by their friends and families and her friend will lose access to her children. That would happen to some degree as a result of a divorce regardless; throw in some gay and i can quickly escalate. It’s not worth it.

    She does not say how old the children are, but at the very least they should not do this until the kids are in their teens or out of the house and can make up their own minds. I am all for living honestly and freely, but once you make the choice to have children you have to accept the burdens that come along with that. No child should have to grow up being told that their mother, who they can no longer see, is a sinner and a pervert.

    If the “fundamentalist church in a conservative area” was an exaggeration, ignore everything I just said.

  • Thanks, E. I appreciate that.

  • I have no reason to think she exaggerated about her church. And to be clear, I never said that what I’ve suggested she do would create anything easy. I’m certainly aware–as I’m certain she is also–that if the wife comes out and breaks up with her husband a lot amount of drama, pain, and chaos will result. But that fact doesn’t invalidate or even compromise the advice I’ve given her. You’re talking about what/how the WIFE should respond to the affair; how the WIFE should reason about her children. But I’m not talking to the wife; she’s not the one who wrote me. I’m only telling this woman what I think she should do. I’ll offer my thoughts on what the wife should do if she ever asks me for that input.

  • UglyBattery

    Your advice is spot on. An affair is an ugly, sin filled thning that destroys lives. If the wife truly loves her than she should leave her husband and, like you said, honor that love.

  • Erin Leigh Mathes

    My point (and looking back, not one that I made well or clearly) was more that this does not seem like a situation where forcing the wife to abandon her children (or else prove that their love isn’t real) is in any way helpful. And I think my issue was more with your choice of phrase than the advice in general – Their love can be real and not survive this. Their love can be temporary and still be an important catalyst, for good or bad. Putting that kind of added emotional weight on the decision is not helpful.

  • AtalantaBethulia

    I don’t doubt that they love each other very much. I have to wonder though… what is potentially broken in the wife’s marriage that may be in need of repair and/or is it reparable before one would pursue a different relationship.

    Now, in this particular situation – in my book – I imagine being the wife of a fundamentalist minister is likely not much fun. In fact, I imagine it is the opposite of fun, as in oppressive and, dare I say, unhealthy. It seems reasonable, lacking details, that the wife likely has a lot of internally conflicting issues that she will need to address (with the help of a good therapist) before coming to a reasoned and healthy decision about her future and her future with the letter writer.

  • snow day

    Good advice, John, but I’m not convinced the “story” is true. Not because I think it couldn’t happen… I just think the letter sounds too pat and made-up. Maybe it’s because there’s just so many bogus emails out there.

  • I don’t know. It sounded sincere to me. An what would be the point of writing me a faux-letter like this? (And either way, the truth is I tend to only answer here on my blog those letters that I think reflect dynamics generally at play in people’s lives. So, like, with this letter, I think it’s good advice for anyone having an affair. And spring is soon upon us! So, you know.)

  • I didn’t tell her to force the wife to do anything at all. And sure, their love can be anything from a fling to the real deal. I didn’t qualify their love at all. But the “emotional weight” is already there. The question now is how does the woman who wrote me deal with that weight. And about that I … well, said what I did.

  • BarbaraR

    I had the same thought. It just didn’t feel real.

  • Jeanne LeMaire Romero

    I agree except that I think she needs to leave the situation completely. Leave that church. Sever all contact with the family. She needs to move on with her life and let the wife figure things out w/o the complications of having her there all the while. I wouldn’t want to be in her position for any reason. This won’t end well for anyone, especially the husband and children who stand to lose the most.

  • Sugarbush43

    What a great response. They’re in a bad spot as it is being gay and being involved in a fundamentalist church and environment. However, it doesn’t ever make having an affair OK. The wife may never reveal the truth and leave her husband. That’s a very difficult thing to do, especially with children. For a good many of us parents, true love is amazing and everyone deserves it, but it’s difficult when it comes to potentially harming your children in any way (in this case, either thinking the mother they’ve loved and trusted is an “abomination” or having the community turn on the children because of their mother’s truth). I feel a lot for this lady, both ladies, but it’s time to end the affair, no matter what. I’m so sorry they’re in such a situation.

  • Your response was short and to the point and right on the mark.

  • Violet Elder

    Very good advice, regardless of the gender. Affairs hurt everyone.

  • Lisa Marie Gilbert

    This is a no win situation . An affair is an affair , gay or straight. My advices to leave . If she will do this to her husband she will do this to you . You want something real ! Do you really want to give an ultimatum ? Her children will be hurt , her husband will be hurt and you will be the one that they blame . If someone makes a pass at you and you are married or they are married they do not respect you ! They do not love you . I suggest you leave , you don’t want this . You want a love that is based on trust , respect and is genuine. Not one thats base starts with lies and deception , ultimatums and leaves others hurt . You will end up hurt yourself , her children and husband will blame you . Find someone that is honest and loves you enough not to put you in this type of situation .

  • ErikaBeseda

    perfect advice.

  • Matt

    Perhaps the letter writer writes romance novels on the side, and so that’s just the way she expresses herself. Maybe she’s caught up in the giddiness of a thrilling affair and newborn love, which tends to smooth the gritty edges of reality for a while. Maybe she’s omitting detail for the sake of anonymity, which she said she was concerned about. There are plenty of reasons for things to come off oddly or lacking realism in writing.

    Regardless, as John said, it’s an excellent story to help him illustrate some great advice for anyone having an affair.

  • fem_progress

    A side issue (well, maybe not): when people who are gay live in an environment where it is not accepted, they stay in the closet, very often, and attempt to go through the motions. They get married. They try real hard to pray away the gay. But if they are really gay, things like that are bound to happen.

    Not blaming anyone. We don’t decide where we are born.

  • JenellYB

    There’s only one ‘right’ or ‘best’ response to something like this, and it wouldn’t make any difference if it were an opposite or same sex attraction, whether the married couple involved are in office of pastor or anything else. You are intruding into someone else’s marriage. Whatever any else in the details, that’s the core of it. Walk away. Completely. Cold turkey. No thinking it over, no ‘talking to the other’ about it. just walk away, and don’t go back. Any other course is one headed for pain and disaster.

  • JenellYB

    we can recognize and agree on that. But such situation as this is adultery, intruding into someone else’s marriage. That is the issue here, not sexual orientation. If the “wife” in the matter is lesbian, and unable to maintain faithful to her relationship to her husband, she needs to end her marriage and be open and honest before getting involved with another person.

  • JenellYB

    totally agree!

  • After gay acceptance, why not polygamy?

    Jenny Block’s speech at the Poly Pride Rally focused on communication.
    Before writing Open, I went to my daughter’s soccer practice with my husband and our then girlfriend, Lisbeth. The three of us went to the neighborhood…
    Jenny Block’s Speech At The Poly Pride Rally
    by Jenny Block

  • Brian K

    Boy am I going to get it for this….
    I’m in agreement as far as the need to tell the husband what’s going on, he has the right to know. But the ultimatum that one of the two relationships must end doesn’t necessarily have to hold. I strongly recommend you do seek out some feminist writings on non-monogamous relationships. (Clarisse Thorn comes to mind.) There are lots of marriages that become open marriages rather than divorces for the sake of kids involved.

  • I don’t think that’s true … you advice to the writer = ultimatum to wife: pick me or lose me. This forces wife to chose, now or later, but it does indeed force a choice.

  • AtalantaBethulia

    Um. The wife is married to a fundamentalist minister. So…

  • Brian: there may be. I’m gonna go out on a limb, though, and guess that a partner in exactly none of those “open” marriages is a fundamentalist pastor. But who’s to say this pastor can’t be the first! (Or that he isn’t the … fifth! It’s a big world! One never knows!)

  • I believe your advice is mostly excellent, emphasis on the excellent. I know you’re not Dear Abby, however, and I think you missed some very important and urgent issues surrounding the writer and the wife’s potential life together.

    First, I have to address the lying. You’re right, of course. And …. You. Are. Wrong.

    Many of us in the LBGT community MUST LIE TO SURVIVE: survive school; survive family … physically, emotionally, and psychologically … have you seen the brutal, off-shore, abuse endured by kids sent off by their “loving” parents in order to be made hetero? Kids die at these places.

    We survive by lying, in order to keep our bodies physically SAFE; survive by ensuring our employer doesn’t find out we’re gay and fire us for that sole reason … in 29 states one can be fired (loss of income, loss of health and other benefits for both the former employee and their kids/family, and a lesser ability to find new work) simply for being gay. This group ranges from file clerks to CEOs.

    Two months before graduation, Westmont College threatened to expel me because I had homo-sex out off-campus. No Westmont straight couples, living and sleeping together off-campus, were threatened with this penalty, even though they were also break the honor code. Well, I lied my ass off — phony repentance, crocodile tear, counseling filled with lies and with promises which I never, ever, intended to keep, prayers that were jokes — and two months later walked away with the diploma I had EARNED. And I would proudly do it all again.

    Lying has kept us alive for generations. Do we want to lie? Of course not. Does our society at large provide a safe place for us to be honest? It absolutely DOES NOT. Check out some gay blogs if you want to see the hate poured upon us by “respectable” – ha! – people and talking heads on tv. (John, don’t know if it’s cool to refer to Towleroad or JoeMyGod … if not, sorry.)

    Even now, states like Kansas are trying to make discrimination against the LBGT community legal. Read those laws yourselves. Then ask yourself, how would people react if these laws were targeting Christians? Imagine sitting in a diner and having the owner/manager walk up to your table … your family … and say, “I saw you pray over your meal … I WANT YOU CHRISTIANS OUT OF MY RESTAURANT, NOW.” Christianity is, after all, a choice.

    I built an amazing, “wouldn’t trade it for world or God”, 28 year marriage, on a foundation “steeped” in lies. Lies to our families, to certain work colleagues who made it clear they considered gays — and by extension me — to be perverts and pedophiles. Lies to hotel clerks in hostile locations. Lies to hospital staff — “he’s my brother” — in order to get hospital visitations.

    And then are the lies that hover over us, daily and constantly, like a dark clouds …

    I’d like to hold hands as we walk down the street like all those straight couples doing the same, but’s it not safe … we’d like to hug and kiss and jump and down with excitement when seeing each other at airports, but we dampen our reaction so as not to called “fags” (and you, John, know how well I react to that.)

    Every time I want to throw my arm around my husband in public and pull him close — restaurants, clubs, bars, movie theaters, strolling down the street — I check myself, “is this a safe place?” Usually, the answer is, “better not risk it.” And I live in liberal towns, in NYC, SF, Hollywood, Asheville!

    Every time this society forces me to “check” my actions to ensure my sexuality will not harm my husband and me, i feel forced into a lie. I cannot be honest about who I am and how I want to act. I cannot show, publicly, forms of light-hearted, romance-y, affection about which most straight people wouldn’t think twice.

    To say, “only harm and destruction can result” is both wrong and lacks insight into the dangers of being gay and why we have been forced to lie about ourselves.

    What about the writer’s kids? More often than not, both spouses are unhappy, which often creates a bad home life and an oppressive atmosphere for the kids. In every divorce of which I know, the couple – for the kids’ sake – stay together years longer than they should’ve and caused greater harm to the kids in doing so.

    But one can’t be sure that will be true here … a divorce, which will most likely cause exposure of the lesbian relationship, can also harm the kids … mean words from friends and adults, judgment/explusion at church, and a potential shunning in their community.

    And specifically to the letter-writer, can the wife make a good assessment of how her husband will react to the betrayal of trust and desire to leave the marriage, but the wife shouldn’t sell him short! He is a pastor. He, presumably, loves Jesus and follows his words. Perhaps — just perhaps, be careful — he’ll understand. Set you two free. Love you and want to see you happy. Protect you and her.

    If the congregation is ultra conservative, your pastor will also probably lose his job.

    Where do you live? In some states, a lesbian relationship could create cause for limited, supervised, or even denial of the wife’s visitation rights with her children. Imagine the societal lies, toxicity, and judgment which will be heaped on those kids, if kept from their mother.

    My advice to the writer: for today, you two need to lie to protect you, your lover, her husband ( though he may know more than he’s letting on.) Talk to a counselor and talk to a divorce attorney. Educate yourselves to the probable/worse-case ramifications of your and your lover’s actions. Have sex during this period, or not, but spend time really getting to know each. There’s no “take-backs” on this.

    Good luck … these lies could be leading to an awesome life of which you never dreamed possible. with love, mike

  • I’m not arguing against it.

    “The more you love, the more you can love — and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.” ~Robert Heinlein, Time Enough for Love

    So writes one of my favorite authors.

  • Brian K

    Well, if there were more than exactly none, they’d have a powerful incentive not to let the public know about it, wouldn’t they? Either way, the woman who wrote this letter is not duty bound to force a monogamous ultimatum. She would do well to find a way with her lover to stop decieving the guy, but beyond that I don’t see it as her responsibility define the terms of someone elses marriage.

  • Brian K

    In some future conversation, I will remember this post, and it will shape what I say. Thank you.

  • As you know, Mike, I’m more than aware of what LGBT people must endure throughout their lives; you of all people should hesitate before accusing me of “lacking insight into the dangers of being gay and why gay people have been forced to lie about themselves.” (And of course I don’t mind you referring to Towleroad or JoeMyGod: I think you know we’ve all be linking back and forth for years.) I think it’s safe to say I’ve earned the right not to be chastised by you for being too ignorant about, or insensitive to, the challenges life forces upon LGBT people. I’ve given my life to trying to mitigate those challenges.

    You’re criticizing me for not properly answering a question that no one asked me to answer. I’m not talking to the pastor’s wife. I’m talking to the woman who wrote me. I’ve advised her to not herself become a reason for which the wife must continuously lie to her husband. I’ve said, “Don’t you make a liar out of her.” I’m not addressing whether the wife is, or to what extent she might be, living a lie generally. I’m not addressing her kids. I’m not addressing the state of gay legislation in America today. I’m very carefully addressing only the dynamic I was asked to.

    The woman asked me what she should do. I advised her to break off the adulterous affair until the wife has figured out some questions it seems reasonable to think she might want to address. I think that’s good advice. I hope she takes it (and apparently she will).

    If the wife decides to leave her husband and be with her, then, yes, as you say, tricky waters surely await them. If, come that time, they–or either of them–want to write me about how best to navigate those waters, I’ll of course share with them my thoughts on that. But, again, that’s not the subject of this exchange. Here, I’m only saying, “Wait until the wife comes with you. And if she doesn’t, leave her alone to live her life in whatever way she chooses. But you deserve not to be stuck in that ever-nebulous middle-space.” And that’s the same advice I’d give anyone in her position, gay, straight, or anywhere in between.

  • Heinlein is my wife’s favorite author of all time, by far. She’s read every one of his books literally countless times, since her childhood. It’s so funny. No matter WHAT comes up in life, she has an apropos Heinlein quote for it.

  • I can totally grok that.

  • Dear John, damn, sometimes misunderstood tone, and sometimes multiple audiences, can cause such confusion in a forum like this.

    The reason I began my post by (what I thought was) a compliment, “mostly excellent, emphasis on excellent,” was to be sure you didn’t take my words as a criticism. Certainly not a chastisement. I truly meant to fill in what I do perceive as important potential consequences for the letter writer and her friend, ramifications not addressed in your excellent advice, for the valid reasons you cite.

    Obviously, I failed in that regard, and sincerely apologize.

    The LGBT community, and especially LGBT Christians, has no better friend than you. You’ve earned my respect over and over again, and you continue to have a profoundly — profoundly — positive effect on both Christian and LGBT communities and how they can work happily with one another. You? ignorant? Never. Insensitive to the challenges we face? Just the opposite … few people, gay people included, have your insights into our world.

    However … the word “liar” hurts, however true. It made me feel that readers might not understand how we must lie, regularly, duplicitously, simply to survive. Simply to stay alive and non-suicidal.

    And many of the commenters here seemed so quick to tell or agree that the letter writer should give the wife the ultimatum and just walk away from this, without acknowledging or seeming to understand that this situation is already dangerous.

    Much of the rest of my post was an attempt to speak to your readers and commenters, not to you.

    In a nutshell, a sudden break-up could cause great damage here. A heartbroken and/or angry letter-writer, or a heartbroken and/or angry pastor’s wife might be cornered as to why they are upset. Maybe someone lashes out. One might confide in the wrong person. A text or email that is not deleted. A love note read by the wrong party. A private conversation upon which someone has eavesdropped …

    This is a very tricky situation. The kind of situation where kids are taken from a lesbian Mom or a wronged Pastor loses his job. Maybe a marriage which could still be saved is not.

    We agree the letter writer, and no person, for matter, should live dangling from a string in an “ever-nebulous middle-space.” But, perhaps, this “middle-space” can also be a place within which … for a short period of time, and with an educated knowledge of the potential ramifications … these two women can figure out their love for each other and how it will demonstrate itself.

    I love you, John, sorry for the misunderstanding.

  • I’m not sure a person can “intrude” into someone else’s marriage. In a happy marriage, there’s no room to allow such an intrusion.

    Certainly, there is the exception of malicious, manipulative, heartless, people who do force a wedge between a loving couple, but marital discord is usually what opens that gap which allows for the intrusion.

  • I very much appreciate the graciousness of this response, Mike–and certainly do know you to be a great friend of mine and my work (who, let be known, puts his money where his mouth is). And what you’re saying here is extremely valid, for sure. Love to you.

  • John, see if your wife approves of these Heinlein quotes I left here and here. 😉

  • Sharla Hulsey

    Choice, yes, but ultimatums are game-playing. Yes, the wife will have to make a choice. But the GF wouldn’t be issuing an ultimatum to say, “I can’t continue this if it’s about lying and hiding. I love you, and myself, too much to do that to either of us any more. Therefore, I bow out.”

  • Jim

    A few questions:

    If a woman were attracted to her married pastor, should she be expected to do nothing to disrupt the pastor’s marriage? If so, if a woman is attracted to the pastor’s wife, should she be expected to do nothing to disrupt a pastor’s marriage. Similarly, if a pastor is attracted to another woman, should he do nothing to disrupt his marriage. And should a pastor’s wife be attracted to another woman, should she do nothing to disrupt the marriage.

  • There is no argument that there was disruption in the marriage, and that both parties made a huge mistake. They dynamics of the why these things happen is much more complex. In this case, we have only the surface of a much deeper story, a story that is less of our business than we can assume.

    i personally believe that compassion should rule the day here. For everyone involved. When we screw up, there is a mess to clean up, and it can be hard and painful. There is no winner, even though things can, and often do work out better than anyone imagined or hope, or it can become disastrous . In the case of this family, I do hope for the positive outcome..

  • Jim

    How about compassion for the husband? What mistakes did he make?

    My first marriage ended because my ex abandoned me in a difficult situation to live with a boyfriend she had, a boyfriend she had been seeing since the beginning of our marriage. In the course of the breakup, she accused me, falsely, of pressuring her to marry me. That is where I am coming from. It hurt. While many marriages break up because of the infidelity of the husband, there are those which break up because of infidelity of the wife. Unfaithful wives have a tendency to blame their infidelity on their husbands rather than take responsibility for it. My ex surely did not. And even though she forced the split on me, she believed I had no right to move on in my life, that for whatever reason I still had obligations to her.

    That said, I do hope this situation would be settled better than my first marriage. The husband would be showing great love for his wife to let her go so she could enter into a relationship with her lover. Would the wife have enough love for the husband to recognize he is not a villain?

    Further, personally, if I had the chance to advise him, I would say, do not hate your soon to be ex wife.

    Years ago, after my divorce, I treated a young man who had stabbed himself because his wife had told him she was leaving him. I told him my story and I did advise him that he should not hate his wife.

  • Barbara Hoyt

    Imagine if this was a man posting this about hitting on someone’s wife wanting to “free” her from her current relationship. ..would people ‘ve so supportive of that? It really doesn’t matter whether she us a man or a woman, an affair is an affair. She is lusting after another mans wife and it is morally wrong.

  • I feel compassion for him as well. He likely has no idea what is going on, and if and when things come to fruition, he’ll be blindsided. Whenever this happens, as I said, there are no winners.

  • Jim

    So let us pray for him. When he learns it will be a terrible burden for him.

  • Let us pray for them all.

  • I suspect that a recently demised horse is being tenderized.

  • Jim

    Amen to that.

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    (9)Herbal care
    10)Help bringing people out of prison
    (11)Marriage Spells
    (12)Miracle Spells
    (13)Beauty Spells
    (15)Attraction Spells
    (16)Evil Eye Spells
    (17)Kissing Spell
    (18)Remove Sickness Spells
    (21) Charm to get who to love you.
    (22)Business spell.
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