On Getting Punked–And What Matters

So yesterday I get a note from a reader (apparently quite sincere) in which he tells me he has spent a bit of time among Dark Enlightenment types. Wants to talk about it because(he says) he’s concerned people are buying this stuff.

Okay, sez I. No guarantees about publishing it but I’ll take a look.  Since I’ve already gotten mail from a distraught person whose young relative has left the faith to go indulge in bullshit Asatru paganism that supposedly frees whites from their slavery to Judeo-Christian mores and liberates them to get in touch with their white roots, I figure, “Worth a look.”

I take a look. His general description of the ideology comports with what I’ve seen: “a weird mixture of ethno-nationalists, futurists, monarchists, PUAs (‘pick-up artists’ like Chateau Heartiste), Trad Catholics, Trad Protestants, etc. They all believe in HBD (what they call ‘human biodiversity’ i.e. racism) but disagree on some other minor points.” This is pretty accurate from the encounters I’ve had in my comboxes with these people. All other differences aside, the controlling theme for all of them has been a fascination with racialism (Human biodiversity).

As to the rest, it could well be that his report of his alleged experience is a total lie and I’ve been suckered. Lots of my readers certainly think so and they may well be right. Let’s grant for the sake of argument they are.

What is proven? That it’s foolish to think that elitists fascinated with racialism often have a taste for creating little secret societies with dumb rituals and code words? Except, of course, that history is littered with examples of such people doing exactly that. And, in fact, the DE crowd does use at least some of the coded language my reader describes, so I saw no reason it might not be the case they use other in-group language and, for all I know, have little local collections of nuts with a taste for boutique ritualism.

Does it then prove that it’s foolish to think that in a country littered with millionaires who use their riches to espouse weird boutique fetishes and whose habit of mind is routinely to cull the herd of the poor and minorities, one or two might not be enamored of this junk and choose to host a luncheon somewhere private to discuss these ideas? Heck, we have a billionaire buying and selling private islands and building cool supervillain lairs right here in Washington (though my guess is that his taste for culling dark-skinned and poor people herds runs more toward supporting PP than HBD quackery).

So it seemed to me quite possible that my reader was on the level about his particular experience. I did not take it as being some sort of description of what goes on in some massive worldwide secret society since the DE people I’ve run into are far too diverse a group of weirdos to be that organized. Asatru worshippers, jerks on the make, Euro-reactionaries pining for a new Charlemagne, Darwinian Master Race theorists, Reactionary Catholic nuts and various other fringe types who have in common only racialism, pride, and contempt for most of the human race can make common cause after a fashion, but a cohesive global secret society? Nah. So I took it for granted that my reader was talking about one local expression of nuts dabbling in their particular boutique nutjobbery. And that he was passing along the sort of stuff they had told him.

If the account of my reader’s experience is fiction, oh well. I got punked. Dumb ol’ me. I got lied to.

But here’s the thing: That doesn’t really matter all that much, because the issue is not whether some local group of DE types goes in for silly rituals or uses goofy code words lifted from Tolkien or has a kinkyboots fascination with inspecting your phenotype. It’s not whether a couple of rich guys have decided to patronize this stuff as their latest boutique cause. It’s that, yes, this stuff really is about racialism and the inculcation of pride. And you need look no further than the comments from DE types in my comboxes who show up to laugh at my gullibility in the matter of gnats and stay to swallow the camel of racialist pride (and, by the way, contempt for the Church, particularly among Reactionary Catholics):

But your conciliar church is doomed, Mr. Shea, as are its antichristian ideals. Every day, more and more Catholics open their eyes and realize the truth: that human liberty is not the greatest good; that human equality is a risible fantasy; and that the only real fraternity is the fraternity that exists between those of the same blood and culture.

****

A monarch is the head of an ancestral family in its geographic redoubt. You take care of family. Transnational loyalties damage social cohesion, which is why the Jewish patriarchs warned against kings taking on foreign wives. Monarchy is a blatantly racially-conscious governing structure. You may have noticed that Europe with its Catholic monarchies filled up with distinctive nations instead of being one generic, multi-cult blob like the US.

***

What part of “Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery” don’t you understand, Mark Shea?  That is the commandment against race mixing.  Racism is not a sin, it’s a Commandment!  You, sir, are the heretic.

***

Maybe we need an European Mohammed, who unifies us and imposes a law on the Arabs stating that European men can have Arab wives, but not the other way around.

I’m leaving the whole thread up (except for a couple of grossly obscene contributions from DE “thinkers”) since, as one reader (a Traditionalist, by the way) put it:

Good Lord. The comments on the original do more to convince me of the evil of this movement than any lying account you were given this morning.

The real story here is that this crap is so far over the top that even the most ham-fisted of parodies is quite believable.

Yeah.  Poe’s Law at work.  Some are complaining that I was too ready to believe the note.  That is, I was too ready to believe that a loose association of racist nuts with theories ranging from transhumanism to the re-establishment of the Holy Roman Empire and who (I am not making this up) enthusiastically have trading cards of their weirdo heroes might behave like, you know, nuts and overgrown teens.  And to prove I was wrong, they showed up to invoke the tower of Babel and warn about miscegenation.  Boy.  How could I have been such a sucker to believe those people are kooks?

Look.  I get that PC piety can be obnoxious.  I get that people tend to hang around with people from their own familiar linguistic, ethnic and cultural group.  Exactly what makes the Church Catholic is that it’s made up of all kinds and there have to be kinds to be made up of for that to happen.  But as my reader obsessed with “race mixing” demonstrates, the impetus that drives DE is not a healthy Catholic love of the diversity (a dirty word in that crowd) that marks the faith, but a fascination with declaring some ethnicities and cultures more equal than others.  Also a fascination with power. As racialist movements of the past have done, it hops from one foot to the other. Sometime it is appealing to bits of Christianity it likes (“One wonders… why the Lord smashed the unity of the human race at Babel”) while studiously ignoring the fact that this curse (for that is what it was) is undone by Pentecost.  At other times, it lays great weight on Science or quasi-science like sociology to emphasize, not mere differences between different human groupings, but inferiority and superiority.

The Faith, while honoring the variety of culture, is basically indifferent to “racial” differences.  The mixing and matching of DNA has been happening for a very long time in human history and the notion of a biologically “pure” anything is silly and is, theologically, completely unimportant (except, of course, when it forms the basis for nutty eugenics movements fueled by pride and leading to murder).  The fact that these guys are fascinated with *bio*diversity, not cultural diversity as some (such as reader Anti-Gnostic) wish to portray, is what gives away the racialism that drives them.  It should be, as reader Dan C, aptly puts it, “radioactive” that these guys think and talk this way.  The fact that it is not–and that such a large number of comboxers don’t get that, is exactly why this stuff worries me.  As radical movement of the past have done, they appeal to suckers by their cocky swagger and portrayal of themselves as the Vanguard of History.  Youth, in particular, are attracted to such things and will follow such movements because, like Buzz Lightyear, their leaders may have no idea what they are talking about, but they are always certain.

So:  bottom line.  Worst case scenario: I got trolled and was a sucker. Oh well.  I’ll live.  But on the point that matters–the pride and racialism that is the driving engine of DE “thought”–well, the DE types themselves who came to guffaw and stayed to make clear their obsession with race and pride have made that case better than I can.  The central point remains clear:  this stuff is poison and is deeply anti-Christian.

By the way, the reader who seems to have come nearest the mark to describing why DE crap appeals to discernment-free reactionaries and callow youth–and how to sanely respond to it as a Catholic has the delightfully Nordic handle “Gunnar Thalweg“. He writes:

I don’t remotely believe one word of the pagan and ceremonial weirdness described by that reader — it sounds like something out of Jack Chick.

I do believe this: As far as the “Dark Enlightenment,” it appears that we have an authentic social movement. Mark is correct to see them as dangerous. The devil plays both sides of the fence. Just as he has corrupted our elites into imposing abortion-on-demand, racial preferences, and same-sex “marriage” on the country, he now seeks an extremist counter-movement. Weimar followed by Nazis; Tsarist autocracy followed by Soviet totalitarianism; Peronistas followed by military juntas.

Let’s make some distinctions: In DE, there is a serious and legitimate criticism of western culture, and a crucial one is the sexual revolution doesn’t work. It fills in a lot of gaps that the Catholic Church never effectively explained, namely, why you shouldn’t sleep around, and why our culture is destroying itself believing lies about the sexual revolution. The DE types explained it quite clearly and quite well (it boils down to polygamous and hypergamous impulses run riot). You ignore that explanation at your peril, or you can simply obey the Church. But it’s a lot easier to obey when you know why.

However, DE types go other other direction on the sexual revolution, and say, OK, let’s exploit this to the fullest extent, to gratify our needs at others’ expense. This is where they get sociopathic and evil.

Next up is race. I have watched over the past six years as this movement went from pointing out hypocrisy to discussing what boils down to white separatism. There is enormous hypocrisy on race in this country, from the flagrant and unbridled racism of minority groups to attempting to shut down any discussion on race other than the party line. DE is reacting to that, and watch out where that goes. I believe in taking everyone as an individual, and I have no use for racists on any side. The DE here is authentically dangerous.

DE is supposedly materialistic, but no one ever remains there, at least not in one generation.

Overall, stick to Church teaching. But with the right set of eyes, you can see through the DE what the Church was trying to warn you against, if that makes any sense.

I think this is spot on.  As Chesterton points out, Reactionaries and revolutionaries usually have something on the ball in their critique of what they are reacting against.  Their trouble almost always comes in the fact that they have a lousy idea of what to be for.  DE is against PC stuff.  DE is for racialism and the sin of pride.  Here is C.S. Lewis on the strategy hell is up to:

It is a terrible thing that the worst of all the vices can smuggle itself into the very centre of our religious life. But you can see why. The other, and less bad, vices come from the devil working on us through our animal nature. But this does not come through our animal nature at all. It comes direct from Hell. It is purely spiritual: consequently it is far more subtle and deadly. For the same reason, Pride can often be used to beat down the simpler vices. Teachers, in fact, often appeal to a boy’s Pride, or, as they call it, his self-respect, to make him behave decently: many a man has overcome cowardice, or lust, or ill-temper, by learning to think that they are beneath his dignity—that is, by Pride. The devil laughs. He is perfectly content to see you becoming chaste and brave and self-controlled provided, all the time, he is setting up in you the Dictatorship of Pride—just as he would he quite content to see your chilblains cured if he was allowed, in return, to give you cancer. For Pride is spiritual cancer: it eats up the very possibility of love, or contentment, or even common sense.

I may well have been punked.  I am inclined to think I was.  But DE ideology is a far more serious bit of punking.  Because the suckers who are falling for it are fleeing PC and glomming on to pride and racialism as their hope.  The devil laughs.

Stick to Church teaching.

  • http://www.theamericanconservative.com/ Jordan Bloom

    Mark. It’s not that you were “lied to.” It’s that your notions about this group of people are such that you were willing to believe that they were stripping folks down and giving each other titles like Eldar in Training. That’s why you were able to be punked — if you’re going to cop to it, be honest about why.

    Anyway, maybe pride and racialism are the driving forces of NRx thought, though the best way to convince yourself of that is by cherrypicking the nastiest quotes you can find, like your post the other day (funny enough, a libertarian blog praised the Black Panthers for their “race pride” recently). But isn’t it also plausible that the “driving force” is an awareness of the thing that casts out anyone who comes close to approaching these topics? Like, James Watson, Charles Murray, Larry Summers, etc… Isn’t that the more powerful force here? Isn’t it something we ought to, I dunno, react to? Moldbug is Jewish, Land lives in Shanghai, Anissimov is a transhumanist from San Francisco, they’re arguably the three biggest DE bloggers. They are rather conspicuously lacking in racial pride.

    But by all means, keep up this sophistical bullshit, judging by the way you flew off the handle over that Rorate Caeli essay on Tolkein, you’re not really interested in being challenged or thinking hard about stuff. I’m sure your readers appreciate you making up things for them to be afraid of.

    • Andy, Bad Person

      It’s not that you were “lied to.”

      Someone gave Mark an account of his experiences that was not true. In what way is that not lying?

      • ariston

        I think he’s saying that the important thing here is not that Shea was lied to as much as he was primed to believe said lie.

        • Andy, Bad Person

          Ridiculous things are hard to parody; parodies become quite believable.

          • HornOrSilk

            That’s also a part of it – parody often looks like the real thing, which is why many fall for parody sites as news when what is said sounds true. Also, if people look at this culture, they would know “role playing” is a big part of it (not just RPGs, but also, creating all kinds of personas and sock puppets on forums); so with that role playing, it is easy to see how the parody is reflective of an aspect of the culture itself.

          • Stu

            But here is the other thing to consider. Whomever wrote that email knew exactly what bait to put on the hook to get a good bite and run for deep water.

            • chezami

              You mean he was a good liar. No argument from me. But of course, the essence of a good lie is to put some truth in. And as my DE readers are making clear, the truth that DE is about racialism and pride is exactly the point.

              • Stu

                Yes, he was a good liar. And you were a good “mark”. (No pun intended.) And like it or not, for someone who works in the realm of information, it is a “hit” on their credibility.

                If I were deceived, instead of focusing on how bad the man was who fooled me, my focus would be on what weaknesses I might have given him. But admittedly that is part of my upbringing.

                • http://janalynmarie.blogspot.com/ Beadgirl

                  How do you know Mark is not working on that?

                  • Stu

                    Because this post amounts to “sure they lied to me but ultimately I am right.”

                    Mark was punked. Admit and walk away and reengage later.

                    • chezami

                      So you disagree that DE is basically driven by racialism and pride?

                    • Stu

                      Did I say that anywhere?

                    • chezami

                      No. You didn’t *say* that. But since that is the focus of my argument and you are laboring with might and main to tell me to shut up, I repeat my question.

                    • Stu

                      No. The focus of THIS post is to downplay your misstep and hope to reengage quickly. Rhetorically, you are a scrapper. I get that. Heck, I admire that. But if we were flying together and you almost did a gear up landing, I would advise you to rest on it and not take the bird back up in the air.

                      Further, I haven’t told you to “shut up” or anything even remotely resembling that. That is your hair-trigger interpretation of my words without really attempting to discern the advice I am giving you.

                    • chezami

                      No, Stu. It’s not. If I’d want to downplay the misstep, it have removed the post. I don’t really care about the misstep all that much because it’s trivial to everybody but DE types who imagine a coup was carried out by lying to somebody who tries to take people seriously when they come to him in what he takes to be real anguish. I get lots of letters from people who have been hurt by various kooky movement and ideas. This was not the first one I’ve gotten from somebody deeply wounded by DE bullshit. I made the mistake (apparently) of trusting this person. I don’t think that is a sin, just a mistake. I do think that racialism and pride are very serious sins and nothing about the rhetoric and behavior of the DE types who have shown up to laugh about the flaming bag of dog poop prank has done much but reinforce why any normal person would think that.

                    • botti

                      What exactly do you mean by racialism? There’s a difference between say discriminating on the basis of race and acknowledging average group differences (e.g.. HBD). Even the Comprehensive Handbook of Multicultural Education notes group differences.

                      Gottfredson, L. S. (2005). Implications of cognitive differences for schooling within diverse societies. Pages 517-554 in C. L. Frisby & C. R. Reynolds (Eds.), Comprehensive Handbook of Multicultural School Psychology. New York: Wiley.

                      http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/2005cognitivediversity.pdf

                    • antigon

                      Hate to pick on Stu here since – tho I fear it’s been awhile – in the past have appreciated his correctives to what seem Mr. Shea’s occasional overindulgence.

                      Of late, however, one fears Stu’s become a bit obsessive, in a manner not unreminiscent of his accusations against our host. May perhaps thus be time for Stu to practice the advice he proffers & cool off a bit, sparing his correctives for when Mr. Shea really does overdo.

                      How seriously one should take Mr. Mugblood & minions is debatable, but that Mr. S has used the apparent punk to expose, or rather allow to be exposed, precisely what he intended to seems manifest.

                      That the often perspicacious Stu doesn’t see that is unfortunate not least in that he is one of the few on this blog who really can challenge Shea effectively on occasion, but lately…well, see above.

                    • chezami

                      It wasn’t my plan to have DE nutjobs show up in the comboxes at the other thread to boast about lying and rave about the dangers of miscegenation. I really did get punked and was a sucker as far as that goes. It’s just that DE types, flush with successfully throwing a flaming bag of their poop on my front step then voluntarily showed up to brag about what great liars and racialists they are and how the lower orders cannot comprehend their superior greatness. No plan of mine was involved. I think of it as a classic illustration of divine Providence ordering this so that evil destroys itself.

                    • Stu

                      But I think all he managed to show was that a “haughty group of college sophomores” are sophomoric. These guys are wacky. Engaging them on their terms only ensure more wackiness. It’s like debating a four year old and then being shocked that they call you a poopy-head. I just don’t take guys who have trading card looking characters for their movement seriously. Nor do I take stories of initiation that involve wearing nothing but a black cape seriously. And even if the latter is true, then even more reason to dismiss this nonsense and not engage them directly.

                      But indeed, you are perhaps correct that my attempts to focus Mark are too much at this point. I have thought that myself. Why do I do it? Because I think Mark when Mark plays to his strengths, he is great. But when plays to his opponents strengths, his performance is terrible. Mark is one of the best at dissecting ideas. Engaging at online feuds, not at all. So that’s why I do it. Should I? I don’t know and will certainly take your suggestion seriously. And I appreciate it.

                    • antigon

                      As your Lenten penance, Stu, it is time you returned.

                    • http://janalynmarie.blogspot.com/ Beadgirl

                      Again, how do you know he is not working on it privately? (And, it is possible that Mark’s weaknesses led him to believe this *and* that he is right about certain elements in the DE movement.)

                      Just because someone doesn’t handle something exactly the way you would does *not* make them wrong.

                • chezami

                  I’m not interested in showing that the guy is a liar. The apostles of DE are doing that. I’m interested in the fact that they are majoring in minors by demonstrating that the core issue is racialism and pride.

                  • Stu

                    I don’t question your motivation at all.

                    What I question is the tactical decision to continue fighting for this hill after such a misstep. Focus on the war, not the battle.

                    • chezami

                      You think it’s a bad idea to fight racialism and the sin of pride?

                    • Stu

                      I think it’s a bad idea to fight any battle right after you just took a massive face shot.

                      Walk way and then reengage later. Save your powder for another day.

                    • chezami

                      Meh. At worst, I trusted a liar who told me that documentable kooks were more kooky than was quite accurate. There are worse things in the world. Meanwhile, the kooks show up in droves to sing the praises of racialism, pride and contempt for the Church and you sole counsel is to tell me to shut up. Gnats. Camels.

                    • chezami

                      Bottom line: I’d take you far more seriously if you, you know, engaged the enemy than if you didn’t stand over a comrade who has been shot in the face, kicking him and berating him for fighting the enemy. DE ideology is an enemy of the Faith.

                    • Stu

                      I’m standing over the comrade and telling him to take a tactical retreat and then reengage. My comrade, like a wounded animal, is biting the hand of someone giving him good counsel.

                      The enemy here isn’t going anywhere. As you said before, “let them have their fun”. That’s for today. Tomorrow is another question.

            • chad

              You are losing me Stu. Why is that even a consideration? It does seem you are relishing this a tad too much.

              • Stu

                Relishing it? You can tall all of that from some responses in a commbox?

                It’s a consideration because our host, as a subject matter expert, may need to re-calibrate his BS detector against internal biases that allow someone to play him. If your bread-and-butter/reputation is on putting out information, then you really should think about such things.

                This story was ridiculous at face value. Absolutely ridiculous. It’s akin to being offered some sort of get-rich-quick deal. If it’s too good to be true, it probably is.

                I don’t relish it one bit.

                • chad

                  You often nobly play contrarian to Mark’s approach. I just don’t think it is much needed at this moment. Anybody can be punked at any time if you know the person. It says much less about the person than you imply.

                • chezami

                  Except I don’t claim to be an expert. I claim that everything I have seen from DE people reinforces the perception that however inchoate and disparate are the various fringe groups attracted to it, the core of it is racialism and pride. A reader (not the first) came to me expressing what I took to be sincere worries about it and I took him at his word based on my experience with other nuts in the movement I have encountered. In all likelihood, it appears he was lying about this particular experience. Poe’s law at work. That doesn’t for one moment change the fact (demonstrated in spades by DE readers in the comboxes) that the driving force behind the movement is racialism and pride. Why do you strain at gnats and swallow camels?

                • chad

                  As you counsel Mark on picking battles… you yourself may consider you are not doing well in this battle. You don’t always have to be the guy on Mark’s shoulder.

                  • Stu

                    I hate watching people I like repeatedly run head first into brick walls.

                    • chad

                      I don’t think this was as much the brick wall as you think. They may have baited him, but from what I’ve seen a whole lot of DE have scurried out to taunt and have shown their fruits. In essence, it has backfired on the DE.

                    • Stu

                      Backfired how?

                      This “movement” is filled with bunch of immature blokes. Mark took a face shot and they show up to gloat and as with all youth, the aren’t going to hold anything back. Do we really think that they are now going to engage on a serious level after that?

                    • chad

                      If you can’t see it yourself, I’m not going to be able to make you see it.

                      And yes. Their pride will never allow them to not reengage on any level. No damage done.

                    • chezami

                      Just so. That’s why I left up their comments.

        • chad

          And he was primed by who and what exactly? These notions of DE are not created out of thin air, but by the DE themselves. Including this whole episode, and the responses.

    • chad

      you sound intelligent…ish

    • Chase

      What was “challenging” about the Tolkien piece? It was crap, plain and simple crap, poorly argued, presumptuous, and stupid.

      There are valid literary criticisms of Tolkien, even valid criticisms of his particular theological views. That was not one of them. Mockery is all it deserved to be treated with. It need not be treated seriously, as it did not treat its own subject seriously.

    • http://thepracticalconservative.wordpress.com/ TheUnrealWoman

      Dude, they have trading cards and you’re going to act like “Eldar in Training” is just too much? Let that sink in. THEY HAVE TRADING CARDS.
      (google radish trading cards, not gonna link)

  • Phenotype

    You only wish you got trolled.

    • HornOrSilk

      So, you are saying it was true all along? The “you were trolled” was the trolling? Seriously, this has no end!

  • mrmandias

    You are offering the Dan Rather ‘fake but accurate’ defense.

    • chezami

      No. I’m not. I’m granting for the sake of argument that the account of the reader’s experience is a lie. I’m also noting that DE types are, themselves, illustrating the fact that, whether or not local groups have a taste for secret society crap, the heart of DE is racialism and pride.

    • Andy, Bad Person

      At least that’s what you were told to say on VoxDay.

      • HornOrSilk

        http://tinyurl.com/ozzedrq should also tell people about Vox Day the “writer.”

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Beale the person.

        Should help get a picture of what is going on. As I said, role playing!

        • HornOrSilk

          And also explains other features of the movement and its influences, such as on WND, where many conservatives get suckered into reading

  • Athanasius

    When you look to hurt people to make your living, you’re bound to get hurt. You should take this as a life lesson. I hope you do.

    • Andy, Bad Person

      You sound like the Mafia.

    • HornOrSilk

      Who is looking to “hurt people” as his living? hmmmm

      • HornOrSilk

        Some people confuse criticism and debate, sometimes not always the most charitable of debate but still debate, as “trying to hurt someone.” I think that is projection. I have often disagreed with Mark. He’s human. I’m human. We both can say things at times, when debating on something we disagree. But behind it, there is a common core, and Mark isn’t looking to hurt someone.

  • http://brianniemeier.com/ Brian Niemeier

    Thanks, Mark. I think that Gunnar is spot on. The failure of the Church (laity too; not just clergy) to explain her teachings has greatly contributed to the excesses of the right and the left. Seems to me that’s part of what Pope Francis meant when he warned against proselytizing, i.e. issuing a bunch of moral directives without building understanding in charity. Satan has indeed rushed into the vacuum with his favorite tactic: misconstrue divine laws as arbitrary, oppressive rules instead of the user’s guide to human nature. I’m glad we’re moving on from simply exposing error to explaining why it’s contrary to the truth. The whole point is to save souls.

  • Irenist

    Mark, please replace the KKK link with one to the Wikipedia article about the KKK. Clicking on the KKK website is going to get one of your readers fired when IT flags the click and reports it to HR. Heck, if I wasn’t reading at home today because I am watching my sick kid, it easily could have lost me my job. Please think about people reading at the office as a quick break between tasks when you’re posting. It’s part of your job.

    • chezami

      Done.

      • Irenist

        Thanks very much!!

    • upfrigger

      I don’t doubt at all that an innocent clicking of the mouse that links you to a page about the KKK would get you fired. Do you not see the evil of that? This is precisely the kind of PC BS the DE types complain about, that our culture has devolved so far. I am not a DE “disciple,” but on some subjects they indeed have a point – which you have proven here with your warning. At least with the DE types you can feel that you can speak freely. Not so in the modern USA. Pity that you are failing the wrong crowd…

      • HornOrSilk

        No, you can’t speak freely with DE crowds. They can speak freely, which is not the same.

        • upfrigger

          So you’re cool with “Irenist” getting fired over an accidental web destination? Who in the DE threatens to end your livelihood?

          • HornOrSilk

            You said people can speak freely among the DE. You can’t. They delete, censor, ridicule, and troll when you say something they don’t like. And, as with many internet bullies, this can lead to great personal destruction (see troll forums which push people to attack innocents all the time). And they are also trying to create a social structure to silence their opponents. Yes, they do more than threaten jobs when you see the targets of their venom.

            Plus, who said I am “cool with Irenist getting fired”? Seriously…

            • AntiGnostic

              Welcome to the internet, where people disagree with you, often vehemently.
              I would be interested to see your examples of people who have lost their jobs for saying, for example, that race is a social construct or that every person is born with equal cognitive potential.

              • Rachel

                Sure, people disagree with each other all the time but the sort of stuff you espouse is so nasty that most people don’t want to hear it. There are good reasons why we’ve moved away from such ideas. They breed hate and at times death. Yes, race is a social construct. We are all part of the human race and have great potential. Our skin color does not determine what our potential is.

                • Todd

                  Are you being serious? You could have at least gone for the low-hanger, namely that the differences don’t matter.

          • chezami

            No. I’m cool with protecting people from the possibility of getting fired. But then you knew that.

      • chezami

        As I say, the attraction of DE is that that it claims to liberate us from the chillblains of PC by giving us the cancer of pride and racialism. You’ve been punked by Screwtape.

  • Stirner

    The Dark Enlightenment is for the truth, no matter how unpleasant. Of course we know racism is “radioactive” – why do you think almost everybody in the DE posts under a pseudonym? The fact of racial differences is a complete moral horror. It would be wonderful to wish away racial differences, but that does not change the facts of reality.

    And it matters, it’s not some obsession. The US has spent billions over the last 40 years trying to close black-white gaps in educational achievement because it can’t deal with the fact that there is a difference between black and white average IQ. Accept that fact, and then maybe you could focus on methods of improving the training of low IQ kids, or give them a route for employment based on their other skills and capabilities. But no, they are all supposed to go onto college, even though only people of somewhat above average intelligence can even manage in college. Yet it’s the DE types who are somehow the next great ideological monster

    Jews are on average smarter than whites. East Asians are on average smarter than whites. These are completely non-controversial facts in the Dark Enlightenment. JayMan, a prominent HBD blogger….is actually black, and nobody in the DE seems to mind a bit. Your accusation that the DE suffers from an excess of White Pride is rather off the mark.

    • http://thepracticalconservative.wordpress.com/ TheUnrealWoman

      You are aware that the “Cathedral” is populated by HBD lottery winners, right? The very people the Endorkenment whines about are, by their own stated HBD views, *precisely the sort of people who are supposed to be in charge*.

      How’s that working out in this brave bold age of Obamacare and global recessions?

  • Shibes Meadow

    I do stick to Church teaching, Mr. Shea. I simply choose to stick to what the Church has “always and everywhere” taught, not the revolutionary line as taught by the conciliar “church”. As I said… “Spirit of Vatican I”.

    Nor is it we reactionaries who defy the truths of biology and anthropology. We accept the truth about nations and peoples that has always been recognized by thinking people. It is you believers in the artificial and luciferian credo of Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity who have based your lives on a lie.

    I look forward to a revived Christendom under a new Charlemagne–the great King who will lead the conversion of the world to the Catholic faith and who will rule during the Era of Peace promised us by Our Lady. If you do not… Well, I can only pity you.

    • jroberts548

      Charlemagne sold a third of the Saxons into Muslim slavery. Do you really want a new Charlemagne?

      • chezami

        Monarchy is God’s Form of Government! What are you? Some kind of modernist?

  • Brendan Doran

    What was the plan for the “Man” part of “European Men are intrinsically Evil” ? What was the Plan for the fact that they’re MEN? What was the plan for Human nature? Your plan seems to be that they swallow all Pride and grovel more. Cuz that’s what the Church teaches. No, it’s what the Bishops practice.

    • chezami

      Thank you for making clear your obsession with racism and the sin of pride and your hatred of the Church.

    • chad

      I think I found your rocker. Please be more agile next time.

  • Rachel

    Granted there are exaggerations in the original post but I’ve come across this BS before. My husband and I were once friend with a couple (they were even going to be in our wedding) but things fell apart when their true colors were revealed. They espoused this racialist BS. It is truly nasty. People for centuries have migrated to many different places, intermingled and married, creating new groups and fusing cultures. There is nothing wrong with this. Race is an artificial construct anyway. We are all part of the human race. Are there certain types of diseases that show up in other ethnic groups, etc? Sure but that doesn’t mean we can’t get together. There is no pure race. That is impossible. The color of skin and region where they came from should not matter. What does matter is one’s character, beliefs, etc. I welcome diversity and I’m happy that the Church welcomes it too. Again, we are all part of the human race and historically, we have fused together in many ways. I think that the world is better for it.

  • Ita Scripta Est

    Mark,

    Just ignore Vox Day. The man is a crazed anti-Catholic LIEbertarian tool. I also think this whole debate just goes to show how libertarians really hate Holy Mother Church.

    • chezami

      I haven’t read Vox Day in ages. I gather that some of his flying monkeys have been here today.

  • Snakes on a Car

    So Egalitarianism (Communism) kills 100 million people last century, Modern liberalism aborts tens of millions of unborn children but some guy pointing out racial differences on IQ tests on a blog, that’s the bad guy?

    • chad

      both and

  • Thibaud313

    What’s wrong with being a monarchist ;) ?

    • Rachel

      nothing is wrong with being a monarchist. What is wrong is attributing racialist attitudes toward it.

      • Snakes on a Car

        Serious question. Where in the bible does it say ethnocentrism is wrong?

        And if ethnocentrism is so morally wrong why aren’t you protesting an NAACP meeting for having ‘racialist attitudes’?

        • Rachel

          Ethno centrism is very wrong and as for as the Bible, it clearly states that we are all made in God’s image. He does not discriminate. What does happen, especially in the Old Testament is religious separatism, not racial separatism. Historically, humans have been intermingling. That’s the truth. There is no “pure” race. None. Only the human race and since we are equal in dignity in the sight of God, there is no excuse for ethnocentrism. None!

          • AntiGnostic

            What does happen, especially in the Old Testament is religious separatism, not racial separatism.

            I suggest you re-read the Old Testament.

            The last time a multi-ethnic Catholic empire blew up, it took all of Western civilization with it. Please just stop.

            • Rachel

              NO, I will not stop. What you are espousing is not Catholic. It is NOT Christian. It is wrong. We have many Catholic brothers and sisters who are not pasty white and who are NOT European. There is a reason why we are called Catholic ie. universal. The faith is universal. The family is universal. We are all God’s children. ALL and therefore, we have kinship with those who happen to have meletonin levels darker than pasty white. We have a kinship with those who happen to live in semi-arid, desert, and tropical environments, outside of Europe, etc. Yes, if you are a Catholic you have kinship with them! I don’t care what Catholic empire or any such empire that blew up. They all eventually blow up anyway..multi-ethnic or not. In fact, you show a great lack of historical ignorance by blaming multi-ethnic civilizations for the Western demise.

        • HornOrSilk

          Neither Jew nor Gentile.

          • Joel P.

            … or male or female. I guess, to be consistent, you’d have to say that sexual distinctions are social constructs as well…

            • HornOrSilk

              They are divisions from human nature which are indeed overcome by Christ, and Christians must follow through in treating others equally because of Christ’s work to bridge the gaps from such sinful divisions. We don’t go working for Christ by trying to put his bridges to fire.

              • Joel P.

                Great. When’s the election of the first female pope?

                • HornOrSilk

                  Fallacious argument, for you do not know the difference between nature and person. You divide the nature in such a way you will deny the Trinity, either through Tritheism or through Unitarianism. Which are you following?

                  • Joel P.

                    It isn’t fallacious at all. I’m merely taking your faulty interpretation of Galatians 3:28 to its logical end.

                    Keep spinning.

                    • HornOrSilk

                      “My” faulty interpretation? It’s the interpretation of the Eastern and Western half of the Apostolic tradition. And I gave an answer to how your reply fails and you didn’t grasp it. Enough is enough.

                      See what an insatiable soul! for having said, ‘We are all made children of God through Faith,’ he does not stop there, but tries to find something more exact, which may serve to convey a still closer oneness with Christ. Having said, ‘ye have put on Christ,’ even this does not suffice Him, but by way of penetrating more deeply into this union, he comments on it thus: ‘Ye are all One in Christ Jesus,’ that is, ye have all one form and one mould, even Christ’s. What can be more awful than these words! He that was a Greek, or Jew, or bond-man yesterday, carries about with him the form, not of an Angel or Archangel, but of the Lord of all, yea displays in his own person the Christ. (Chrysostom Ga 28)

                      By divine institution Holy Church is ordered and governed with a wonderful diversity. “For just as in one body we have many members, yet all the members have not the same function, so we, the many, are one body in Christ, but severally members one of another”.(191) Therefore, the chosen People of God is one: “one Lord, one faith, one baptism”(192); sharing a common dignity as members from their regeneration in Christ, having the same filial grace and the same vocation to perfection; possessing in common one salvation, one hope and one undivided charity. There is, therefore, in Christ and in the Church no inequality on,the basis of race or nationality, social condition or sex, because “there is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all ‘one’ in Christ Jesus”.(193) (Lumen gentium EN 32)

                      The Christian priesthood, being of a new order, can be understood only in the light of the newness of Christ, the Supreme Pontiff and eternal Priest, who instituted the priesthood of the ministry as a real participation in His own unique priesthood. (15) The minister of Christ and dispenser of the mysteries of God, (See 1Co 4,1) therefore, looks up to Him directly as his model and supreme ideal. (See 1Co 11,1) The Lord Jesus, the only Son of God, was sent by the Father into the world and He became man, in order that humanity which was subject to sin and death might be reborn, and through this new birth (See Jn 3,5; 1Tm 3,5) might enter the kingdom of heaven. Being entirely consecrated to the will of the Father, (See Jn 4,34 17,4) Jesus brought forth this new creation by means of His Paschal mystery; (See 2Co 5,17; Ga 6,15) thus, He introduced into time and into the world a new form of life which is sublime and divine and which radically transforms the human condition. (See Ga 3,28 (Sacerdotalis Caelibatus EN 19)

                      But if you say, “Female servants do these things;” neither so do I acquit thee of my charge: for neither to these ought such things to have been permitted. For hence all these evils have their origin, that of our household we make no account. But it is enough in the way of contempt to say, “He is a slave,” and, “They are handmaids.” Arid yet, day after day we hear, (Ga 3,28)” In Christ Jesus there is neither bond nor free.” Again, were it a horse or an ass, thou dost not overlook it buttakest all pains not to have it of an inferior kind;and thy slaves who have souls like thine own dostthou neglect? And why do I say slaves, whenI might says sons and daughters? What then must follow? It cannot be but grief (luphn, qu). lumhn, “mischief.”) must immediately enter in, when all these are going to ruin. And often also very great losses must ensue, valuable golden ornaments being lost in the crowd and the confusion. (Chrysostom on 1Cor 1207)

                    • HornOrSilk

                      Just one hint: logical distinctions are not real distinctions. If you have any wisdom, you will understand.

                    • chezami

                      Ah. So you just want to say that there are differences and have no interest in asserting superiority/inferiority or warning about race mixing, etc. Mhm.

      • Imrahil

        In fact, people have said (I mean one who if he is not cherished by “DE” then should be, Erik v. Kuehnelt-Leddihn, a confessed reactionary and monarchist, who is certainly not a racist and certainly a Catholic), that
        1. European monarchy was supranational since virtually Charlemagne,
        2. that in the Middle Ages, European royalty (a large family, even by then, and if not then later) married into a young then Mongolian-looking (now here is Kuehnelt-Leddihn speaking; I don’t know) dynasty of the previous intruders of Europe. The intruders were called Hungarians, the dynasty Árpáds, and lo! in a virtual instant, we have a St. Stephen, St. Emmerich, St. Elizabeth etc. etc. at the glory of the altars.

    • Chase

      I think one of the problems of monarchism in the present day is that actually pushing for one would involve, in this country at least, some sort of coup or violent seizure of power, and the empowerment of certain people (chosen by whom?) and disenfranchisement of others (based on what?). This country has no monarchical tradition whatsoever, no throne to even claim (and European monarchies all trace their roots to a particular pint in time when their kingdom was created – it was a *big deal* when Prussia became a “new” kingdom, as there was no historical claim to kingship).

      I am sympathetic to monarchism as a political theory, and if I were alive in early 20th century Austria I would have no doubt supported the Habsburgs. And I think that in some cases the restoration of ancient monarchies would be a good thing. But even then it’s fraught with real danger — the Russian monarchist cause is run through with folks harboring particularly nasty nationalist and anti-Semitic sentiments (up to actual Nazism, which makes no sense from a Russian perspective).

      But the thing is, given the current state of the world and systems of sovereignty and law in place, creating new monarchies out of whole cloth would be as wrong as tearing down the old ones was. European monarchies and systems of nobility developed organically out of a loooong tradition (and even then, the distant ancestors were for the most part Germanic barbarian warlords who just happened to be the toughest thug).

      So, monarchy is great in theory. I’d have loved to see a man like Otto von Habsburg or his (literally) saintly father in charge somewhere. But that is not the world we live in, and popular sovereignty is a fact of life. Getting that genie back in the bottle would be a task demanding some pretty dirty steps along the way.

      • Chase

        Oh, and let’s not forget that for every good king or duke there was a slew of scheming and ambitious nobles no better than out politicians.

        • Stu

          No different than now with “elected politicians.”

          Actually, what monarchy had at one point was distributed power.

      • Imrahil

        Good points.

        However, nothing speaks against underlining, on given occasion, that monarchs were not felons by their very fact of being monarchs (and thus supposedly suppressing the people etc. You do hear this kind of thing.).

  • AntiGnostic

    You know, other than some handwaving in the general direction of the supposedly diversity-loving Catholic faith, you haven’t actually deconstructed any “Dark Enlightenment” arguments.

    “Pride” is of course a sin, and I’d include with this the arrogance of those who, for example, put Somali Muslims in a climate and culture for which they are manifestly unsuited, and then hand the bill to the taxpayers as their grand social engineering experiment crashes and burns.

    I assume by “racialism” you mean the undoubtedly sinful belief that other individuals are inferior by virtue of their race, as with the German contempt and persecution of the Jews. But from that, you also appear to condemn any recognition of the fact that people of different races have different traits, and maybe we shouldn’t be spending billions of dollars pretending we’re all just these plasticine blobs who can be picked up and set down wherever the Chamber of Commerce or religious charities want them.

    I assume from the various Polish, Italian, Croatian, Irish, Middle Eastern, Latino and other festivals (depending on the ethnic makeup of the parish) that the Church is okay with some level of ethnic pride. Of course, the idea that there may be more to ethnicity than quaint little parish bazaars is crimethink in deracinated, consumerist America.

    • Rachel

      Racialist and racist attitudes are terrible. Of course all of us have different cultures, beliefs, etc but we are all part of the human race and there is NO reason why we can’t be friends with each other even lovers/spouses, etc. There is NO reason for complete separation. It is a stupid notion that we can be separate because inevitably we will trade with each other, share stories, food, customs, etc. There is NO “pure” race. None! Historically its never been the case. There is NO room in the Church for such asinine and frankly sick attitudes!

      • Breaker Bear

        “There is NO “pure” race. None! Historically its never been the case. There is NO room in the Church for such asinine and frankly sick attitudes!”

        Yeah, that’s why it would be pretty stupid and awful if these DE types preached that. I assume you must have read those claims on Strawman McStrawman’s DE blog?

        “There is NO reason for complete separation.”

        Not even, you know, in cases when members of two different ethnic groups show a distressing and difficult-to-eradicate tendency to blow each other up, hack each other into pieces, steal from each other, burn each others’ homes, or rape each others’ women. Seriously, there’s a reason Falls Road and Shankill Road have a wall between them; with the rapid movement in the peace process and the setting aside of mutual hatreds, they optimistically hope to be able to safely tear them down by 2023.

        • Rachel

          they do preach it though. I am basing my observations on personal experience. I heard my former friend say the very things that I’ve mentioned. He advocated total separation. He had the idea that for centuries the various racial/ethnic groups kept each other separate which is so much BS.

          • Breaker Bear

            Your former friend is an idiot. The Anti-Gnostic, whether he’s right or wrong, is a serious and intelligent man making a coherent argument. Responding to the former is the same thing as responding to the latter.

            • Breaker Bear

              “is not the same as responding to the latter”. Typo.

            • Rachel

              he’s not making a very good argument, especially where the faith is concerned. The Catholic faith is universal and has many different groups in it. They are all our brothers and sisters and should be treated as such. Faith, good character, love, etc are far more important than skin color or even where one is from.

            • chezami

              No. The AntiGnostic is a monomaniac whose monomania is, as Chesterton describes, impossible to argue with due to the peculiar combination of logical completeness and spirituall contraction that is always the mark of the madman.

      • TFD123

        Well we’re eventually going to split off, so get used to it. We will have our mostly white country, and you can have your multicultural diversity country that is 10% white and 90% black/latino/asian/indian/muslim/etc. You’re going to love it!

        Everyone gets what they want. Win-win all around!

        • Rachel

          I certainly hope you aren’t a Catholic. This kind of bullshit does not belong in the Church. We are multi-cultural anyway! I’d take that any day over an insular, hateful Church/group/country, whatever.

    • Ita Scripta Est

      Yeah great another “traditionalist” who cites Von Mises. Go away.

  • ivan_the_mad

    This DE drivel reminds me of something written by one of the most magnificent of the philosophers of history, Christopher Dawson. Given in a lecture not even five years after Hitler and his barbarians were defeated:

    “The historians and philosophers whose minds were formed by the liberal enlightenment of the eighteenth century could feel little interest and no spiritual sympathy with ages in which the darkness of barbarism seemed only to be deepened by religious superstition and monastic asceticism; while in the nineteenth century the nationalist tendencies that were nowhere stronger than in the field of history reacted towards an uncritical idealization of Teutonic and Slavonic barbarians and caused the unity of Western culture to be ignored and depreciated.

    But our generation has been forced to realize how fragile and unsubstantial are the barriers that separate civilization from the forces of destruction. We have learnt that barbarism is not a picturesque myth or a half-forgotten memory of a long-passed stage of history, but an ugly underlying reality which may erupt with shattering force whenever the moral authority of a civilization loses its control.” — Religion and the Rise of Western Culture

    It is apparently a realization long forgotten by those whose pride blinds them to those lessons of our forefathers.

    • Stu

      In reference to the lessons of our forefathers, isn’t your observation really the norm? Not saying it is a good thing but I would wager that every generation seems to have to relearn the same thing over and over.

    • AntiGnostic

      Who is this English bigot who hates Teutons and Slavs? Doesn’t he know there’s just one race, the human race?
      And “Western” culture? What a freaking xenophobe.

      • chezami

        I can see this obsession with race and ethnicity really, well, *matters* to you, AntiGnostic. I mean Really A Lot. Not that there’s anything wrong with that or anything. Everybody needs a hobby. But it’s doesn’t really much matter to me, except when it becomes, you know, an idol and crowds out weightier matters of the law. Your, well, “overfocus” on such matters strikes me as doing that rather a lot. And your obvious deep hostility to Catholics who have looked at the wreckage of the 20th century and concluded that ideologies of racialist pride can be a tad dangerous suggests that you lack a certain amount of empathy with the Normal Community that constitutes the bulk of the Church you transparently despise in you fascination with the Fantasy Church of your imagination. You are welcome to lay huge amounts of weight on the fact that humans like their tribal grouping and various groups have certain physical characteristics in common and score such and so on IQ tests. But from the perspective of the faith, this is fairly trivial. Bottom line: even if every word you say about “human biodiversity” is true, I, well, don’t really care all that much. Not interested. If you want to tell me that physically and mentally people are not equal, my reaction is “duh”. The doctrine of equality under the law is not an assertion that everybody is the same. It is a carryover of the great mystical Christian truth that God is no respecter of person and that every human being is equal in dignity since each human person was made by God and redeemed by his blood. Your problem, at the end of the day, is that you strain at the gnat of trivial differences between humans and let it dwarf and drown the fact that we are all in the image of God and redeemed by Him. Please take our obsession someplace else.

  • HornOrSilk

    1935 The equality of men rests essentially on their dignity as persons and the rights that flow from it:

    Every form of social or cultural discrimination in fundamental personal rights on the grounds of sex, race, color, social conditions, language, or religion must be curbed and eradicated as incompatible with God’s design.

    • HornOrSilk

      1939 The principle of solidarity, also articulated in terms of “friendship” or “social charity,” is a direct demand of human and Christian brotherhood.45

      An error, “today abundantly widespread, is disregard for the law of human solidarity and charity, dictated and imposed both by our common origin and by the equality in rational nature of all men, whatever nation they belong to. This law is sealed by the sacrifice of redemption offered by Jesus Christ on the altar of the Cross to his heavenly Father, on behalf of sinful humanity.”46

      • chezami

        I believe this is called “Kumbayah Catholicism” by those who see through the evil liberalism of The Cathedral.

        • HornOrSilk

          I wonder what they would make of St Moses the Black!

          • http://thepracticalconservative.wordpress.com/ TheUnrealWoman

            What they always do when people bring actual knowledge to the table. “He was actually Northern European, you were just LIED TO BY THE CATHEDRAL MAAAAAAAANNNN.”

          • CJ

            Well he was a thug in his early life, y’know. If they’d had Stand Your Ground in Egypt, we would’ve never heard of him.

          • AntiGnostic

            Venerate him on his feast day–what do you mean what would we make of him?

            • HornOrSilk

              A multicultural monastery… is saintly? ok….

              • AntiGnostic

                Of course it is. Mt. Athos has monks from numerous backgrounds. Of course, you better learn Greek, and I don’t think they mandate affirmative action.

    • chezami

      The Vanguard of History known as Dark Enlightenment sees through this Vatican 2 PC crap.

  • http://thepracticalconservative.wordpress.com/ TheUnrealWoman

    I wish you hadn’t posted, they think it’s meaningful. The Dark Enlightenment is just a bunch of weirdos who are really interested in being shocking, edgy and outre. Yes, this obviously contradicts their claims to represent long-known traditional truths, but it’s not like anyone can tell them anything involving historical facts and reality. After all, a bunch of them are Catholics proudly flogging the “Cathedral” meme as a description of the (now-liberal) Establishment.

    You can’t reason with that, they’re convinced it’s super-edgy and stuff. Saint Moldbug said so, after all.

    I used to think they were a real threat by presenting a truthy way for Establishment elites to openly forego noblesse oblige, but they are getting beaten to the punch, as the elites are doing that anyway without even bothering to marshal arguments about why the poor and/or stupid should rot.

    No, they just want your job, and since they’ll never get it, they think you’re the bad guy who’s an organ of the Establishment. They got very high SAT scores, you see, so they should have that job. Doesn’t the Bible say that only those who score 1600 unadjusted can enter the Kingdom of Heaven? It must be in there someplace. Maybe the Book of HBD, Chapter 36? “And you shall know them by their ACT scores.”

    • chezami

      As mentioned in the thread where I got punked, it’s always a judgment call when to ignore and when to mention. But given the fact that that so *many* of these people show up whenever you blaspheme this stuff, I tend to think that light is probably a good disinfectant. They have largely benefitted from operating under the radar. And the natural courtesy people usually operate by allow loud bullies like these creeps to portray themselves as edgy outlaws challenging bourgeois convention when, in fact, what they are is arrogant racialists who hold common decency and the Church’s teaching in contempt. That’s why I left their comments up. They did most of the heavy lifting in showing what their real focus is. Getting punked was a small price to pay for the festival of DE weird that followed to illustrate my point.

      • Martin Snigg

        Mark, think just a wrong tack.John Medialle and Caleb Stegall had a good chat about it at FPR years ago. Storm in a teacup again. http://bonald.wordpress.com/2010/12/05/first-things-attacks-front-porch-republic/ See commenter ‘Stephen’ ‘s background.

        Honestly don’t think structural issue related to our political culture should be like garlic to you as maybe Tolkien was garlic to RC types recently. Wouldn’t have thought you were in particle:antiparticle relationship.

        • chezami

          You may be right and this collection of nuts will remain on the fringe where they belong. But from the size of the reaction and the number of readers who flood my comboxes when the subject comes up, I’m not confident it’s as fringe as I’d like to hope.

  • http://brooksbayne.com brooksbayne

    “stick to church teaching.”

    whose church? which century? can we choose original lutheranism? or “old catholic” teachings? if so, your entire post was just marginalized on the clannish front. my guess is that the modernist catholics will have no idea what this means. that’s okay, it’s illustrative of why mark’s responses are so humorous.

    all hail true, post-vatican 2 catholicism!

    • chezami

      The Catholic Church. Blog name: Catholic and Enjoying it. Get it? How’s that superior biodiverse IQ working out for you?

  • Julian Barkin

    Hey Mark,
    I am curious. Reading this, I am thinking that the DE and Traditional Catholicism seem to align at times. Perhaps you can comment on that, even maybe in a separate post? Are my suspicions correct?

    • HornOrSilk

      A lot of the ideologies interconnect because many traditionalist Catholic groups have been the place where fascists went to for cover. Look in Argentina, for example.

    • chezami

      Yep. You’ll find that the Catholics attracted to this bullshit tend to hail almost entirely from Reactionary Traddery. But of course, many Trads–the ones who listen the Church and are not drunk on the sin of pride–can see the poison and avoid it.

    • Andy, Bad Person

      Everybody has to worship something. As something of a Trad myself (and someone who works for the liturgy for a living), I understand the tendency to idolize the rite and not the God. The ritual is a tool.

      I think that the alignment comes from a perceived victimhood (whether real, false, or exaggerated) among those who prefer the Extraordinary Form. For a long time, many were not even allowed to licitly celebrate under that form. I think that led to anger and a search for blame.

      First, it was Modernism, but among some paranoiacs that spread out to left-liberalism as a whole, and then other races.

  • kirthigdon

    I agree with Mr. Thalweg’s analysis and up-voted it. Like any other group, but especially those with a wide range of views, the DE people are right about some things and should be engaged, not just ridiculed. I’ve never personally met anyone who claimed to be DE and I do get out a lot, so I’m inclined to regard them mainly as an internet club of sorts. I don’t think they come even close to being a grave menace to society or to the Catholic Church.
    Kirt Higdon

    • HornOrSilk

      What do you think of world net daily and its influence among conservatives? I know many, who don’t inhabit the internet much, yet spread emails based upon WND posts. And VoxDay is a long term writer for them. The influence is there, and people often are influenced indirectly

      • Lamont Cranston III

        Very little influence and Vox Day stopped writing for WND a couple of years ago.

        • HornOrSilk

          He might have stopped writing for WND a couple of years ago, but, his ideology is the kind which WND has: their “Christians” attack traditional Christianity (like him: rejection of the Trinity), and have this violent streak (like him), and you get a lot of the racism (look to the comments). To say there is little influence is to show you don’t understand how propaganda works (and his writing often was propaganda).

          • chezami

            As near as I can tell, Vox Day is a non-denom Protestant of some sort who has cobbled together a do-it-yourself theology from the stones and bones of the American Christian landscape and is now alloying it with some crap stuff about being among the High IQ elect. A sort of Calvinized racialism. And judging from the number of flying monkey he sends my way, he seems to have a bit of a following. Beyond that, I don’t pay too much attention.

            • HornOrSilk

              I pay attention to WND because of how it influences many naive conservatives (they are the major backers of birtherism, which of course, connects to the racist rant, and have caused many to think birtherism has a serious component to it). It’s this kind of propaganda which, when well place (WND, Breitbart, Drudge) and mirrored that slowly shapes the readers if they are not careful and thinking the sites are giving proper news analysis. And Vox is indicative of what is going on in WND — I remember his book pimped on there, but, only after this flux of his supporters coming here (I decided to google him to see why he had so many supporters come in here at once, and then I remembered him on WND — which again, shows how being on WND has helped increase the numbers).

    • chezami

      I don’t think them a grave menace to society or the Church either. But I think it obvious they are a grave menace to *souls*.

    • lockeinthebox

      The term “dark enlightenment” should be done away with by serious opponents of immoral aspects of the liberal progressive agenda. “dark enlightenment” is a self-aggrandizing term for people on the fringe who take pride in fancying themselves counter-cultural villains to progressives. This is melodramatic, and not a recipe for actual success. It alienates more than it unites by relinquishing the perception of moral high ground to progressives as it pertains to issues where they are in the wrong.

      DE people…. DE Catholics specifically in this instance should be engaged, but in the following manner: DE Catholics, you don’t need the DE to oppose the evils of progressivism, rooting your opposition in the truths that our religion affirms is sufficient, and doesn’t come with all the baggage that the DE has.

      • chezami

        People dominated by pride *want* to alienate inferiors. It’s a feature, not a bug, for these guys. This is a movement that regard most actual human beings as enemies, whatever they think about abstract races and ethnicities. I fit the abstraction these guys want just fine: white, male, passing muster on all the normal right wing checklist item re: pelvic issues. Catholic. A fan of the Western tradition.

        Hostile to PC pietism. And yet I am nowhere *near* good enough to pass muster because these boutique racist weirdo have constructed for themselves a suffociating hothouse of ideology that almost no actual human can fit into. And most hilarious of all? They really see themselves as the Elite Vanguard of History. Sin makes you stupid and the sin of pride makes you epically stupid.

      • Rosemarie

        +J.M.J+

        ” self-aggrandizing term… melodramatic”

        Something like the “Brights”?

  • Joe

    I am not a member of the DE. In the end it is not something that I believe can come about. Reaction to me means you hope to bring back a better time. That may happen, but it cannot be planned, it would just come about as historical
    accident.

    That said, the kneejerk reaction of
    calling people racist, or as is used here racialist is a little unfair. The fact that someone believes in differences among peoples does not necessarily make them racist.

    I have been around a while and have
    interacted with individuals from different groups. I have come to the conclusion that Jews are probably as a group, on average the smartest people I’ve met. That does not mean they are all Einsteins. Just a broad tendency. Of course, if you see that in one group, you see it less in others.
    I take no pleasure in that, because it means a society will have some
    difficulty getting along under conditions of natural inequality. Lying about it, is, however crazy.

    I ask the people who have attacked
    the DE some questions. Within a
    nationality, have you never met some individuals smarter than others. Intra gender, have you not met some men
    smarter than other men and the same with women. It is not unreasonable to see that maybe inter-gender and
    inter-ethnic gradations are probable.
    Does nobody who is slamming the DE not see this? Please, I’d like to know if anyone denies this reality.

    It is not racist to see this. Taking pleasure in it is. I have seen that in some forums, but not seen it in the DE types I respect.

    • HornOrSilk

      Study up on Stormfront. You will begin to grasp the significance of the terminology.

      • Joe

        No argument just ad hominem. Sad.

        • chezami

          You don’t seem to know what “ad hominem” means.

          • Joe

            The man implied an attack on moi, not what I wrote. but so what. Disagree with what I wrote with an honest argument.

            • HornOrSilk

              First, an argument ad hominem is not, as many think, just insulting someone. That’s an insult.

              Second, I didn’t make any arguments.

              Third, I didn’t insult. I was making a point: that the whole discussion, the terminology, is easily discerned from its source, when you read its source and how it is employed. They try to make it sound “neutral” when challenged, but then use it for its real meaning when not.

              • Joe

                Who is they?

                • HornOrSilk

                  Stormfront. They. Keep up. Yawn.

                  • Joe

                    Do you have anything to say in disagreement with my statement or is just replying with the Stormfront red herring enough.

                    • HornOrSilk

                      I was asked who the “they” was. And when I responded, you say this? Really? Well, good bye. Not interested.

                    • Joe

                      You will not be missed.

    • chezami

      It’s true that believing in difference among humans does not make you a racist. That’s why I grant that there are (duh) differences among humans. The problem comes when you start talking about those differences to the exclusion of obvious Church teaching about human equality in dignity and make it the total focus of you whole existence.

      • Joe

        I am not an expert on DE. You know that all of them feel that way?

      • HornOrSilk

        It’s also difference between human persons in logical relations, not ontological differences based upon races, which is what the DE is implying. The equivocations go on, like usual, so people can’t “pin them down.” Typical for the course. They go “but there are differences between people!” then they use differences, which are logical, relational, to persons, and so judge races based upon persons (logical fallacy), which is why this is where things go wrong. An example of their erroneous “science” is their IQ tests, which they try to use to justify “races” being inferior in intelligence (while those tests are bad determinations of intelligence).

      • Joe

        Not a bad reply, Chezami. Unfortunately, all too many just want to sing Kumbaya and pretend everyone is the same. That is a lie, and people who brand everyone as racist who disagree (as is Mr. Shea’s tone) make themselves a joke.

        • chad

          uhmmmm… 3… 2… 1…

        • chezami

          You know, the ritual invocation “Kumbayah” in justification for soft-pedaling this racialist bullshit makes every thing just perfect. Don’t change a thing, Joe. It’s the perfect Reactionary cherry on top of a two gallon banana split of Reactionary craziness with all the nutties.

      • Imrahil

        As I try to never assume bad things about others, I’d only assume the Church teaching about human equality denied when it’s either blatantly denied or when what partains to the human dignity of any man is denied to him for the better of his supposed betters.

    • Chase

      Another problem is this: let’s say it could be empirically proven that certain ethnic groups have above average intelligence on average and others don’t. That still would not come close to proving it has anything to do with race or genetic factors at all. The inconvenient fact is that in the US, blacks, for instance, experience higher levels of poverty and lower levels of education, which has a LOT to do with historical treatment, but whether it’s genetic is extremely debatable. Jews and Asians on average come from family backgrounds that promote education.

      And yes, I know IQ is not the same as education, but it seems to me that certain habits of mind, and even intelligence itself, has a lot to do with nurture over nature.

      Anyway my point is that IQ differences seem to prove human cultural diversity more than anything else. Intelligence has as much to do with culture as race, and is an *obvious* factor, whereas race might be absolutely no factor at all, especially since “races” do not actually exist as discrete entities (there is no “white race” or “black race” with clear dividing lines).

      • Rosemarie

        +J.M.J+

        I recently read that homeschooled African American students do better academically than their counterparts in public-school, to the point where the “achievement gap” actually closes. I just wish I could find that article again….

    • Dan C

      I am sorry. I do not understand what you are missing in the entire race analysis bit clearly put forward by these DE enthusiasts and followers like bonchamps. They are not just discussing minor differences, they are discussing separation of races, segregation, and discuss “the mixing of the races.” This is not a discussion of race differences in blood pressure. This is racism: they oppose what they term “miscegenation.”

      I find it appalling to soft pedal their racism. Stopping pretending its innocent.

      • Andy, Bad Person

        They are not just discussing minor differences, they are discussing
        separation of races, segregation, and discuss “the mixing of the races.”

        Precisely. Remember that this is a political movement. All this obsession with HBD has to have a point. If any political action is to be taken with HBD as a starting point, what possible good could come from that? What policy could proceed that would be anything other than monstrously evil?

      • Imrahil

        Do they speak of “miscegenation”? Interesting. I didn’t read it down here. No offense, but that little piece of information would have confirmed me more that they’re wrong than any repetition of “they’re racist”.

        • Imrahil

          I mean: by down here.

        • Dan C

          Yes. They do. Steve Lawrence does not use the word.

          Anti-Gnostic opposes marriage between races. He and his discuss and use the word.

          Mixing of races is exactly what they oppose- even in social, non-reproductive venues.

          You ignored that.

          So. When I call them racist, it is meaningful and and correct, even if you limit its definition to merely not permitting races to inter-marry. That is what they do.

          • Imrahil

            I do not limit the definition of racism. I do say that opposition to interracial marriage is something easy to grip on.

            On the other hand, arguing from the amount of time someone (even supposedly, perhaps) is treating with a certain subject, or from “obvious” inner motivations for presenting what he claims to be scientific findings, is rather less safe. And, forgive me, this kind of thing loses its force on repetition, and has been repeated quite a lot here.

            I did not “ignore” that (save in the Latin sense), I seem to have overlooked it Mark’s comment above and so did not know.

            • Dan C

              As long as it is still racism, it will be identified as such. Despite the fact that some may weary of hearing it.

              That is more the listener’s problem.

              • Imrahil

                So, is then everything racism that is called racism?

                I would beg to disagree here.

                Why?

                Because racism is bad and (rightfully) punished with shame by general society. But there must not be punishment without just cause. Hence, the term “racism” must not be put safe on what really is wrong and worthy of shame. Otherwise, someone could always end an argument in his favor by accusing the opponent of racism.

                That is, alas, not mere theory. The commenter above who said “I do think of race but” would be classified as racist by some around here (Germany that is). A sentence like “Europids, mongolids and negroids are the three major races of mankind” as well. (In public discussion. I still learnt that in school, though. Some fellow-students raised their hands and concerns, but were quite satisfied when the teacher sharply made clear that he had *not* spoken of degrees in valuableness.)

                As I additionally don’t think the best of looking into adversaries’ psyches (as in “you’re obviously obsessed with that” or “even if what you say should be true, why would anyone say so if he is not prideful or envious”), I prefer to sticking to bold factual statements which then can be accepted as true or dismissed as untrue. That’s all.

                For this reason, I don’t personally think much as argument – no offense – of answering “you’re a racist and full of pride” to a DE supporting commenter.

                This, not that racism is restricted to opposing interracial marriage, is why I was glad to have that information. Such an attitude *is* racist (and “identifyably racist”) and false, so I heavily disagree.

  • Concerned Reader

    Mark Shea: “I may well have been punked. I am inclined to think I was.”

    First, “inclined to think”?! Who do you think you’re fooling? You must think very little indeed of your readership to use a phrase like that.

    Mark, you were so stupidly painfully obviously, how-the-@#&*-can-you-possibly-acknowledge-the-merest-shred-of-a-possibility-it-wasn’t-the-case…ly trolled, how you can publish this post in good conscience is to me unfathomable.

    Admit you are so wrapped up in your ego and single-minded pursuit that something so stupidly obvious like this slips right past you. Everyone sees it but you.

    Wow…

    Look, I’m a fan of your blog. I find it interesting and informative. I know the above post is harsh, but when I was in my late teens, through an aquaintence who later committed suicide (many years later, so only tangentially related), I become what you might call a “DE recruit” in a city in the southwestern part of the Bible Belt. Coincidentally, the experience me off to religion altogether until I rediscovered it later as an adult.

    The “elders” (as we had to call them, regardless of how stupid we thought it at the time), used to publically criticize us mercilessly, and I saw how it, counterintuitively, actually forced us over to the “right” way of thinking. In other words, I want to see your blog eventually become the bastion of truth which I know it’s capable of becoming.

    Did you just believe that?

    Beware the Dark Enlightenment Harry Potter’s Satantic Witchcraft Happy Meal Deluxe! Coming soon to a useful idiot’s Hans Solo green-not-red light sabre blog near you!

    • chezami

      I’m inclined to think I was punked because I’m inclined to think I was. I don’t *know* for ironclad certain that I was because I don’t know my reader and I can’t prove for certain he is a liar. I’ve given my reasons for not instantly supposing elitist racialist kooks might indeed behave in ways elitist racialist kooks have behaved in the past. Most people are saying he is lying. In my correspondence with him since (pretty sparse) he’s pretty tight-lipped, so my assumption is that I was had. Silly me.

      What’s interesting is that I’m quite willing to assume I was had. But that doesn’t seem good enough for you. Are you disappointed because I’m not embarrrassed that I answered the door when somebody tossed a flaming bag of their poop on my front doorstep? I don’t think it a huge defect to choose to trust somebody when they claim to be upset, particularly since he was not the first reader to express worries about this crap. I can see why the worshippers of power in the DE would regard that as a huge failing, but I don’t. I can also see why they don’t see lying as a problem that might taint the perception of Normals regarding them. Ends justify the means and all that.

      • chedolf

        “Are you disappointed because I’m not embarrrassed that I answered the door when somebody tossed a flaming bag of their poop on my front doorstep?”

        I’m disappointed that you can’t identify a flaming bag of poop thrown on your front doorstep.

        ” I don’t think it a huge defect to choose to trust somebody when they claim to be upset, particularly since he was not the first reader to express worries about this crap.”

        Right. The problem isn’t that you’re in a hurry to believe the worst about those who disagree with you, even when the allegation is preposterous. It’s just that you’re so trusting and full of concern that sometimes mistakes happen.

        Let’s call this “Sheadenfreude”: the celebration of one’s most glaring flaw as a virtue.

        • chezami

          Dude. Believing people might have a fetish for boutique rituals and silly ingroup language is not “believing the worst” about DE. The *worst* thing I believe about them they themselves have appeared in droves in my comboxes to confirm: that they are racialists brimming with the sin of pride.

  • biff

    Mark,

    I will try to keep this pretty simple. You are writing off DE folks as “racists”. Think about it, the words “heretic”, “blasphemer” and the like mean nothing now. Use them and you get laughed at, but call someone a “racist” or “nazi” and they can lose their job and be permanently socially ostracized. The official religion of the West is now “Equalism”. I’m not talking about the equal value of human souls to God, i.e., “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus”. However, it would be absurd to argue that the Bible doesn’t clearly specify different gender roles. In the same way, nothing in the Bible indicates that racial intelligence or crime rates would be the same or that all societies should be very diverse ethnically. A century and a half ago, some tried to argue that the Bible supported slavery of blacks–do you see how reading in your own bias could lead to seeing just about whatever you want to see in the Bible?

    Anyway, there are things that your great grandfathers and their ancestors would have known about human interaction, that would have seemed like “common sense” to them, that our current society has rejected, because it offends its god, Equality. Mind you, this is not the “equality” that the founders of the U.S. had in mind. It is a new god, defended with puritanical zeal by its believers, who will ignore or try to furiously explain away any “science” contradicting it, e.g., studies pointing to innate differences in sex or races (even on average–because standardized tests created by white people are all somehow biased in favor of ESL East Asians).

    So, in 20 years, whites will be a minority in the U.S. (you can look it up), and if birth and immigration patterns keep up, will be a much smaller minority by the end of this century. Similar things are happening in much of Europe, though the U.S. is further along this track then they are. Worshippers of the god Equality would say you are a bad person for even noticing this. It is acceptable and even encouraged to have black pride, Hispanic pride or Asian pride and acceptable for the non-white advanced civilizations in East Asia to refuse to accept mass immigration from other countries, but… other things well, KKK, nazi, racist, so evil (and it wouldn’t matter that communism was responsible for genocide and mass murders orders of magnitude more than the nazis, because nazis = evil and communists are sympathetic open-minded victims of McCarthyism–they don’t offend Equality).

    Anyway, it appears that you are also worshiping the god, Equality. That’s called idolatry, and in this regard you follow the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. Do you not see civilization disintegrating around you? Do you not wonder what will become of the U.S. as we approach half of children born out of wedlock? It’s not just about race or gender. It’s about following a false god rather than common sense and Biblical precedent.

    (edit, –I see I’ve been blocked for sharing an alternative perspective (Thanks for that, Mark), but it appears that the response is basically summed up as “Who. Cares? Focus on heaven and not the earth.” It’s certainly trivial that not all humans are the same. If your son was more likely to get killed or daughter more likely to get raped because of certain earthly political matters, of course it wouldn’t be of a concern for you. I’m sure you would value very much a diverse and vibrant inner city schooling for your children, to say otherwise would be racist and against the teachings of the Church.

    And yes, if you don’t care about going extinct, that’s fine. However, your great grandfathers and their ancestors probably would, but who cares about them, right? The commandment to honor your father and mother couldn’t possibly have any relation to that and there are no Bible verses relating to the value of physical progeny, so we obviously shouldn’t be concerned about that.)

    • Yeargh

      “So, in 20 years, whites will be a minority in the U.S. (you can look it up), and if birth and immigration patterns keep up, will be a much smaller minority by the end of this century.”

      Who. Cares?

      Please keep in mind that my skin is a lovely shade of pasty white that is going to die off with me because my pasty white husband and I are not able to have children. When my body is dead, and (hopefully) my soul is in Purgatory or Heaven, it won’t matter at all if I am one of the minority. All that will really matter is if the Faith is carried on so there will be people to pray for the repose of my soul. So Biff, I strongly encourage you to take the long view that life is very short, and the afterlife is forever.

      • chezami

        Racialists care.

        • Yeargh

          No doubt that they do. I just find it baffling that people get all worked up about skin color when there are more important things to worry about, other things to lament. BTW, Mark, thank you for your recent post and link regarding infertility.

      • Almario Javier

        When I am dead, I will not care whether the one who prays for me has skin as dark as night, or as white as a lily, if he does so in English, or in Latin, or in Swahili. I will care that he prays for my soul, if I am in purgatory.

        • Ben

          Thank you. This.

          BTW, whites becoming a minority is entirely of our own doing. That’s what aborting and contracepting does. Because my parents generation, the future in this country will look less like me. It’s not a cab of shadowy elites that made this happen, it was those that decide throwing a party for 40 years was more important than raising children. So, those that DID have children will be greater in number. This is what happens when we defy the will of God to have a party.

        • Yeargh

          I am with you on this 100%. My apologies if that wasn’t plain in my original response to Biff.

          • chezami

            I mean talking and acting as though biological differences between humans are more important tha the fact that they are made in the image and likeness of God and the fact that he died for all.

      • corvinus

        Who. Cares?

        If you don’t want your family’s descendants (since you don’t have any) driven into penury by a perpetual gimmedat democrat majority, like South Africa’s ANC, you’d dern well better care.

        • Almario Javier

          That’s hardly a function of race. Spain was like that once, as was Ireland – yet they are ethnicities considered white.

          And in the alternative, I’ll point out that SA under the ANC has a growing middle class, black and white, something which our own country is failing at doing.

    • chezami

      I’ll make it even simpler:

      1935 The equality of men rests essentially on their dignity as persons and the rights that flow from it:

      Every form of social or cultural discrimination in fundamental personal rights on the grounds of sex, race, color, social conditions, language, or religion must be curbed and eradicated as incompatible with God’s design.

      Dude. I’m aware of the trivial fact that humans are not all the same. I’m also aware of the fact that this trivial fact is trivial and that equality is not the highest good:

      http://www.mark-shea.com/equality.html

      It is, however, a real good…

      http://www.mark-shea.com/HE36.html

      And it is despised by the racialists elitists of DE, who likewise despise the Church’s teaching on equality.

      • Glaivester

        Human differences are not trivial because their results are not trivial.

        For example, if, as many HBD people argue, blacks have lower impulse control, that would imply that blacks need much greater levels of external impulse control. For example, more police presence, more explicit laws, a greater reliance on “do it the old-fashioned way and not your own personalized way.” Possibly schools in black areas need to be more authoritarian and have less emphasis on children figuring out their own way.

        Policies that work in Sweden, or that work in largely white parts of Minnesota might not work in black areas.

        That’s the issue.

        • chezami

          Your Galton avatar kind of gives away the fact that you are full of shit.

      • Imrahil

        I do hear a “and nothing else” after “and flow from it”…

        That said, discrimination is meant to be unjust discrimination. I did not, for the record, think the Federal Republic of Germany was guilty of offense against God’s law in this that she (until the late 1990s) only allowed for soldieresses in the sanitary service.

        Anyway, any person has dignity and certain inalienable (yeah I’ll use that word) rights. These any person has equally. This is what the CCC defines as “human equality”.

    • Chase

      I also used to wonder why “black pride” or “African American pride” was okay, and not “white pride”. But really, it is. We white folks all have pride as Irish or Germans or Swedes or Poles or whatever, and we even have our festivals for it and stuff. The reason “white pride” should not exist is because there is no such thing as “white culture” or “white civilization” to celebrate … European, yes, but “white” is explicitly racial, not cultural.

      We speak of “old Irish folk songs” “old Yiddish jokes” and “old Polish customs” with happy pride, but who the hell has ever heard or “an old white folk song” or “that’s just an old white custom”.

      “Asian pride” is silly, since I have no idea what Korea and Syria have in common, but most East Asians I’ve met have pride in their *particular* cultures. The same with Latin Americans.

      Blacks are an exception for two reasons: 1) being moved from Africa against their will, it’s often impossible to know where their ancestors come from and 2) WE white people segregated them from us for centuries, so that these nation less folks were forged into a new ethnic group we call “African American”, which *does* imply a specific cultural heritage. This is another reason why I dislike the use of African American to replace “black” … Because AA is a useful word that has a specific and unique culture.

      In that sense, “African American pride” is little different from “Irish American pride” and is NOT analogous to “white pride”.

      • Chase

        And for good measure. I’m proud to be French, proud to be German. The fact that I am white is not itself a source of pride – it’s my cultural heritage I treasure, not my racial heritage.

      • http://janalynmarie.blogspot.com/ Beadgirl

        Very well said!

      • Imrahil

        Good point.

    • Imrahil

      Dear @biff, I was almost trying to like your comment after the first paragraph. However, while “heretic” has lost its flavor in general society, not so among believing Catholics to which our noble host belongs. Nor have other words; “heretic” is so friendly to define itself precisely and thus be open to a rebuke. So if you disagree, fine, but just as phrases like “heretic” have only a place where we *are* speaking of heresy, phrases like “worshipper of an idol” etc. have no places in good Catholic discussion. [*Unless perhaps if someone really posed himself before a statute of said idol and burned some incence - and I mean that *literally* and not figuratively.]

  • Rosemarie

    +J.M.J+

    If, as the DE argues, God wants the various nationalities to remain within their nations and not intermingle in any way, then wasn’t it wrong for Europeans to settle in the New World, which was already inhabited by an indigenous human population?

    • Almario Javier

      And was it not wrong, in many cases, to treat those notable Aztecs, or Incas, or Filipinos, who spoke Spanish and did things the Spanish way, as no different than the Fidalgos of Aragon and Castille?

  • Almario Javier

    I’ll just put it out there that in the Middle Ages, what made someone, say, a German, or a Pole, or a Hungarian was not necessarily his parents, but his culture, his customs. For example, an inhabitant of Prague, for a long time, would largely be considered German because he used German language most often, enjoyed food deemed German, told and retold German stories, and ate German food. That his grandparents spoke Czech would have been of little consequence until the 19th Century. This is true even across races – there is one village in Spain who are the descendants of migrants from Japan, but aside from their last names, they have become was Spanish as Queen Isabella. Then there’s the descendants of the last Aztec emperors, who are as much a part of European nobility as, say, the Arundels, because they adopted European customs and ways of doing things.

    There are differences among cultures, not races.

    • Ben

      This is very true about Europe and was true up until the 1800s with the exception of perhaps Great Britain. Nationalism as we know it is a very new thing, and many nationalism (such as Belarusian) were essential invited out of whole cloth.

    • HornOrSilk

      It’s one of many reasons why I told these DE supporters they have no knowledge of history.

  • Porter

    Racialist!
    Racialist!
    Racialist!

    Shea, you’re like a trained parakeet. Though that’s probably the most flattering aspect of your personality on display here. What’s less so is the reservoir of hypocrisy you’ve managed to store within that foot of subcutaneous blubber. If racialism is truly your bugaboo, then there is a vast orchard of non-white low-hanging fruit. And by appearances, the notion of lazily gorging yourself under a tree is not one you find unpalatable.

    So tell these boys what shits they are. And them.. And them. Maybe we can all sit down together and…chew the fat.

    • chezami

      Excellent! Fat insults just to complete the college sophomore vibe you guys radiate. Maybe you can put me on a radish trading card as a villain, you adorable tyke you!

  • botti

    ***HBD quackery***

    Hahaha, I’ll take Steven Pinker, James Watson & Francis Crick over your views Mr Shea.

    • chezami

      Ah! So you hail from the atheist elititst contingent of HBD quackery (aka “eugenics”) wing and not from the Reactionary Catholic nutjob wing. Big tent and all that.

      • whyisthis

        again, merely acknowledging HBD does not make you a eugenicist. Trying to improve the human race is a progressive obsession.

        • chezami

          You need to explain that to your Galton-worshipping fellow DE cultist.

  • Ben

    My ancestors, WASPs, we’re once deathly afraid that the Irish and Italians would soon outnumber them and that American cities would soon resemble (GASP!) Vienna. Seriously, the Vienna thing is in one of the panicked natavist handbills handed out to Yankee WASPs at the time.

    BTW, Jews were once stereotyped as being dumb as door nails. They scored the lowest on army aptitude tests in WWI. And remember Polish jokes? They both took an express elevator up the IQ charts. Now they test near the top when scores are broken down by ethnicity in America.

    One of the benefits of being an historian of the 19th Century is it completely inoculates you against this stuff.

    • Ben

      On that note here’s my favorite natavist cartoon from that era:

      http://ctah.binghamton.edu/student/anderson/knownothing.jpg

      Yes, amazingly enough, pale lager beer of all things was considered Un-American. Real Americans drank hard cider!

      • Chase

        Hahahahaha! I totally just saved this. I’m hanging out with some friends from my parish and we just got a good laugh.

    • Glaivester

      Uh – I’m pretty sure that Polish jokes came less from WASP nativists and more from Jews whose ancestors had grown up in Poland.

      • Ben

        I can buy that. I made no claims as to where they came from, only that they existed. Poles and Jews were considered morons 100 years ago in America.

        • chad

          And I remember the drunk and lazy Mexican jokes from years ago. Not what I would call an accurate representation of the immigrants I know.

          • Ben

            The stereotypes often repeat themselves over and over is what you find when you study this stuff. It’s always some combination of of one or more: laziness, drunkenness, criminality, strange cooking, and fecundity. It moves from one ethnic group, and then to another after a few decades.

            • chezami

              I particularly enjoy that these guys seem to think that because SCIENCE! demonstrates the bleeding obvious fact that (wait for it) PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT! this is somehow a news flash and they are courageous heroes for making this common as dirt observation.

              • Glaivester

                Except that the entire culture is suppressing this fact.

                Look as Jason Richwine, driven from his job for making this “common as dirt” observation.

            • whyisthis

              so why arent these stereotypes being heard today about Asian Indians, Chinese, Japanese or Lebanese people in America?

          • chezami

            Ah, but what do you know of the Ways of Science?

    • TFD123

      Yeah, and within three generations the Irish and Italians had fully assimilated, both culturally and with regards to metrics like better academic performance and lower crime levels.

      Immigrant groups always improve the first few generations, and then level off around the third.

      Well guess what – Mexicans & Central Americans are 6-7 generations in and they’ve leveled off at a much lower level, with a scholastic performance much below the white average, very bad high school dropout rates, still exhibiting higher levels of crime, etc.

      (Asians, on the other hand, have leveled off at a level above the white average, with fantastic academic performance, and exhibiting extremely low level of crime.)

      Making the jump from English to Irish and Italian is one thing. Making a jump to Latin Americans and Africans is quite another. And that’s kind of the point. English and Germans and Irish and Italians are very genetically similar. However it’s a much bigger jump, genetically, from Europeans to Latin Americans and Africans. That’s a fact, and that’s what DE types are pointing out.

      • Heather

        The very fact that “Africans” is considered a category is just another sign of how rubbish this “science” is.

        There is more genetic diversity within Africa than there is in the entire rest of the world’s “races” put together.

  • botti

    Mr Shea,

    Serious question – do you believe in evolution?

    If so, and noting that:

    a) behavioral traits are heritable,

    b) different environments might have different reproductive pay-offs for different traits

    why is the concept of human bio-diversity – e.g. alleles for different traits appearing in different frequencies across groups, so implausible? Care to elaborate? Even the New York Times is open to this.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/12/weekinreview/12wade.html?pagewanted=all

    • chad

      shoe number one… waiting for the second. Unless of course this is your conclusion. But judging from the group-think rushing to this blog, I highly doubt it.

    • chezami

      It’s not implausible. It’s metaphysically and theologically unimportant. As I have repeatedly said, any dunderhead can see that humans are different from each other and, presumably, human groups are too. What is significant in the Tradition is that *despite this* they are equal in dignity. (CCC 1935).

      • Glaivester

        Of course all humans are equal in dignity. We are all sinners and need Jesus to save us.

        It’s metaphysically and theologically unimportant.

        It is darn important though in terms of social policy. If, e.g., far fewer blacks have an aptitude for physics, then we shouldn’t be spending huge amounts trying to close the gap in terms of percentages of blacks in physicist programs, unless that gap is greater than aptitude measures would suggest.

        If groups of people are different, then the societies that groups will create will be different, and our immigration policies, for one thing, ought to reflect what type of society we want to be.

        The fact of the matter is, huge portions of our social policy deals with the fact that blacks and Latinos underperform compared to whites and Asians. If we are going to ignore the issue of human group differences, we are going to be doing that social policy under erroneous assumptions.

        • chad

          and by extension, why should we spend so much money on the health care expenses of the aged? What a waste when they are scientifically less apt to live much longer.

          Let us know what type of society you want the rest of us to create for you. And please hold your breath while you wait for us to oblige.

          • chezami

            He tells us the world he dreams of with his avatar. Francis Galton was the founder of Eugenics.

        • chezami

          Francis Galton, your hero and the founder of Eugenics, certainly did not think so. Inferiors, he thought, should be treated
          “with all kindness” so long as they complied with the demand of their betters
          for celibacy. But if they dared to breed, “such persons would be considered
          as enemies to the State, and to have forfeited all claims to kindness.”

          So, Mr. Equal in Dignity: What concretely are you proposing for the alleged losers in the HBD lottery?

          • Ben

            As I said on the other thread, I think Biological Calvinism is a better term than “Dark Enlightenment”.

            It’s the damned and the elect all over again, predestined from birth, and there’s nothing you can do about it. They both share a system that makes sense internally if you accept the insanely inhuman logic. They both have an Internet cult following featuring swarms of combox flying monkeys armed with insider jargon (TULIP! HBD!) and prerecorded screeds. They even both have nifty diagrams and charts that explain everything.

            Satan isn’t as nearly as clever as he thinks he is. He just repeats the same heresies over and over and over again in different wrapping. (see also: the origin stories of Islam and Mormonism. The latter is pretty much a rehash of the former).

            • chezami

              That’s about right.

          • whyisthis

            Not sterilization. That’s silly. Don’t forget that eugenics was a progressive fantasy. Progressives are the ones obsessed with trying to perfect and improve the human race. Reactionaries are fine with keeping things stable.
            And HBD implies that blacks, while lower in IQ, are better than other races at several things, including most sports, masculinity, leadership, outspokenness, charisma and so on. So claiming that one race is “better” than another in all ways is nonsense. HBD-aware social policy would be cognizant of the fact that nature’s course would make blacks less prominent in physics and more prominent in sports and charismatic professions.

            • chezami

              Fascinating how you guys can casually invoke the No True Scotsman schtick to tell up to pay not attention to the Eugenicist behind the curtain. Dude. I didn’t use the Galton avatar. That was one of your DE pals.

        • kenofken

          Very few humans have an aptitude for physics, at least at its highest levels, and that’s just as well, because they’re damn few jobs in the field at any one time.

          Would you call Neil deGrasse Tyson an affirmative action baby? I don’t see any evidence in his career of social policy giving him a leg up to where he didn’t belong. Carl Sagan personally tried to recruit him as a grad student, and Sagan wasn’t known to suffer fools. How many world-class Ivy League astrophysicists, in round numbers, stand among you guardians of racial truth?

        • Imrahil

          Only that “Latino” is not a race. Their skin color and phyical appearance seems not to be much different from the whites. And if we do go into ancestorships and the like, they’re to grand part mestizos, i.e. stemming from … wait for it … whites and asians. (Whereby I’m classing native Americans with the Asians, as is traditionally done.)

        • http://chicagoboyz.net/ TMLutas

          Since I think the state is incompetent to figure out how many physicists the US needs any given day, my confidence in their fine tuning even more delicate matters of equalizing racial differences is nil. My confidence in the government being able to successfully fine tune national composition by ethnic and racial categories is similarly small. You seem to have a greater trust in government competence in this matter. Why?

    • Andy, Bad Person

      I, for one, believe in evolution and natural selection. As a matter of fact, that’s one of the benefits of having sexual reproduction: mates search for desirable traits that they wish to pass on to the next generation.

      Now, if we accept your group’s premise/obsession of HBD, that different races have different strengths and weaknesses, then the best way to improve the gene pool is for a race that has one weakness to mix with another race that has the complimentary strength.

      HBD and evolution, to benefit the human race, benefits from MORE interracial marriage and mixed-race nations.

      • HornOrSilk

        Indeed, I pointed that out before: the DE ideology ends up genetically degenerate because of its closed nature. Plus, if their position was logically valid, then, if they are “strong stock” they would be promoting marriage between brother and sister as the best of the best, the least mingling of anything. Historically we have seen this happen, though, and when it does… oh when it does!

    • Imrahil

      I have not studied the matter. I’d say, on the one hand, it is indeed not implausible. On the other hand, it *is* implausible to swear an oath to uphold such a statement (which may or may not be true). And it is implausible to swear oaths on Darwin’s Origin of Species at all.

      For the record, I personally think that the personal differences in what people are able to learn (at all), given the will to do so and sufficient aid (possibly of different amount in different persons) are rather small, where we have not actual diseases such as Down syndrom to deal with.

  • lockeinthebox

    The Dark Enlightenment & Neoreaction need to go away. You don’t need a neoreactionary merit badge to oppose the immoral aims of liberal progressives, and you don’t need to adore the dark enlightenment to be critical of ideas stemming from the enlightenment. There seems to be a trend amongst neoreactionaries to try and make their ideology have this all encompassing outlook on the world, and this is partly where you get the racial distractions. No one cares about NRx attempts to highlight difference in race, it’s a niche fixation that from an outsider’s view often makes them look pretentious at best, racist at worst.

    I’d urge all Catholics to stay away from these ideologies, God comes first, always. Don’t let these ideologies, which to me, show strong potential for idolatrous obsession get in the way of living your faith. The strong rhetoric, and counter cultural aspects to these ideas may attract you and make you feel empowered, but be careful that you are not ensnared by these ideas to such an extent that you compromise your faith, and make your faith fit your political views rather than make your political views fit your faith.

    • chezami

      Very sensible. Therefore, the DE types will write you off as a softy coopted by The Cathedral. Nutjobs obsessed with, you know, *purity* tend to do that.

      • lockeinthebox

        I expect negative replies, but it has to be said. Neoreactionaries would love to set themselves up as the only sensible alternative to liberal progressivism in order to gain some legitimacy in the eyes of others, but this is ridiculous. They are not the only sensible alternative, and one has to wonder if the remedies they would prescribe are worse than the diseases.

        • chezami

          They are not the only sensible alternative because they are not sensible at all. And you don’t have to wonder: their remedies *are* worse than the diseases. They are, indeed, one of a host of the sort of opportunistic infections that beseige a civilization when the immunities created by Christian virtues breaks down as the civilization de-Christianizes. It’s a crapshoot which opportunistic infection kills the patient, but this one certainly would do it if it happened to catch on.

        • chezami

          That said, you are on the side of the angels calling this bullshit out.

    • corvinus

      No one cares about NRx attempts to highlight difference in race, it’s a
      niche fixation that from an outsider’s view often makes them look
      pretentious at best, racist at worst.

      You and every other liberal out there fails to get the point. By pointing out racial differences, say, in IQ (but other things as well), we’re poking holes in the liberal dogma that blacks and whites have the same IQ, a liberal dogma which has tormented America for decades with affirmative action, white guilt, black rage, and lots and lots of other liberal idiocy, including Obama. It may seem trivial to you, but it is in fact a huge deal.

      • chezami

        As I foretold, lockeinthebox, the hilarious insularity of DE pride guarantees that, by the mere fact of criticizing them, you are ostracised as a member of the dreaded liberal Cathedral. Like Buzz Lightyear, they are always sure.

      • chezami

        It’s so fun to watch racists twist themselves into a pretzel trying to pretend they aren’t racist. It’s like Holocaust denier with their practiced “It never happened and besides they deserved it” schtick.

      • lockeinthebox

        I’m not a liberal corvinus, might want to reserve those assumptions; but regardless you don’t seem to get the picture from people of my perspective.

        We don’t care. And by we, I mean pretty much everyone who isn’t part of the dark enlightenment. We don’t care about arbitrary political dogmas of any persuasion, and we certainly don’t care about your attempts to highlight racial differences; it isn’t relevant to us who want what’s best for people, all people. Things like affirmative action are opposed (more effectively I might add) without going on these obscure tangents on race difference.

        This is one of the negatives of the DE and NRx; it isn’t enough for people involved in these things to oppose policies they dislike with practical arguments. Instead, they go off and create what looks like an all encompassing political religion. This seems to push them to not just oppose something like affirmative action, but to come up with dubious dogmas of their own to frame and project a sort of holistic view of theirs on a range of subjects. I find this can be problematic for Catholics if/when these political views undermine their faith.

        • chezami

          Ah! But to the Elect in this Calvinist Redivivus subculture, you *are* a liberal. You have questioned the Elect, therefore you are part of the Cathedral. When you *know* you are Elect, with the inner knowing that only Irresistible Grace can confer, if follow as night does the day, that your critics are the outcasts, the enemies, the damned and doomed. Tis a wonderful thing to be Elect.

        • http://chicagoboyz.net/ TMLutas

          I think you might be drawing with too broad a brush. The black supremacists shouting “kill whitey” are as race obsessed as any white supremacist. I can see one being DE but not the other so your construction that anyone who is not DE doesn’t care that much about race simply fails the test of reality. We have more kinds of race obsessed fruits and nuts than this movement.

      • kenofken

        If you guys are so brilliant and blacks are so dumb, how is it that one of them is in the White House while you all are asserting your superiority from a collective online basement think tank?

        Oh, right. The liberals!

        • whyisthis

          yeah getting into the white house is a popularity contest, not an IQ test. Let’s talk when we see some black Nobel prize winners in physics. Or Fields medalists in mathematics. And black black, not 50% black like obama.

        • Glenfilthie

          Yes, the liberals, and political correctness. I sincerely believe Barak Obama was elected based on the colour of his skin, and not the content of his character.
          And, if the blacks and the liberals were so smart, they would fire that idiot out of a cannon. He has quadrupled (probably quintupled, by now) the national deficit spending, he has instituted policies that hit the poor and the blacks the hardest, he has increased racial tensions and anger…and yet the dummies still sing his praises.
          My fear is that as the abuses and incompetence of the Buckwheat Administration make things worse – they will only serve to empower exactly the kind of people they fear. I see race wars on he horizon unless somebody steps up to confront the issues with something more than political correctness.
          Perhaps a ‘sith lord’ of the DE? ;)

          • kenofken

            So we of the White Race are superior, as long as we never have to play an uphill game? I gotta tell you, I’m starting to feel underwhelmed about the powers of my hypoactive melanocytes!

            • chezami

              After WWI in Germany, I believe this was the doctrine of the the Stab in the Back. Real Germans had it together and were on the glide path to Victory until Jews, liberal and Shadowy Forces betrayed them. DE guys, like nerds who can’t get a date, add to this the attitude that they don’t believe in dumb ol’ democracy *any*way.

        • SteveP

          As you know, white male homosexuals have done very well under the One (so to speak). Compare their FV now to that of 5 years ago. Your attempted diversion is quite transparent.

      • Andy

        THe construct of IQ isn’t real – it was created by the French to determine who might benefit what types of education. We in America have moved it to a level where it does not belong. By the way there have been studies that point out that all IQ does is cause expectations on the part of others. The other issue about IQ is that given statistics 50% will be below average and 50% above – simple math. Another issue with IQ is the tests – they for the most part are culture bound – if you don’t have exposure to the language of the test or the concepts of the test – odds are you will be below average. So maybe learn about educational stats, testing and what IQ is before you move into conservative rage.
        However, I will now take my 180 IQ and see if I can exchange it for a cup of coffee and donut.

      • http://chicagoboyz.net/ TMLutas

        The world is what God made it. All that I’ve read about HBD is that the deltas between the races are rather minor. That makes the differences not a big deal at all. The political stoking up of race hatred, now *that* is a big deal. Liberals have their own brand of it and it needs fighting no less than any other kind of hatred.

  • Loretta

    Keep an active bookmark for this post, Master Shea, you’ll be referring back to it again. Sadly, this is a sociopolitical warp to the fabric of Western culture that seems to be discovered anew by every generation. Call its proponents Know-Nothings, fascists, Feeneyites, racialists, or whatever you like, but the sentiment is the same. We vs They, and We’re gonna win.

  • Lamont Cranston III

    I have never heard of DE until a few days ago and even I could tell there was something off about the other post…capes, French chefs…read like the McMartin Preschool story….over the top….

    Vox Day is not a Calvinist….

  • Porphyry

    Oh the irony. Shea commits the no true catholic fallacy, by arguing that true Catholics don’t acknowledge that true race exist which involves denying true patriotism. Because, of course, no true catholic actually believes that true people groups truly form a unit. Therefore, if you are a true Mark Shea approved truthink catholic, truly, there is no such thing as truly having a race.

    • Andy

      Race, race, race – all the defenders of DE can talk about – please do me and maybe others a favor – find a land where you as superior white males – lead by the Sith Lords – can truly live and only superior white males can. In the meantime I ill continue to be a Catholic and bear with not knowing what I am mission by following the true Lord.

      • lockeinthebox

        Opponents of the DE think about race, just not how certain members of the DE think about race. We want racial harmony, not racial discord. I don’t see how anything other than discord can be the result of the DE approach to race. What is the point in trying to flesh out the differences in race that you perceive? How is this going to help anyone? What is the reason for its emphasis in DE and NRx?

        I can only see this attempt ending in enmity between races because everyone wants to be treated with dignity, and the way certain adherents to the DE treat race opens the door for people to have their dignity undermined. For someone involved in the DE who is not grounded in the Catholic faith, where is the line they are not to cross when it comes to dealing with race relations? Is there one at all?

        I’m certainly not saying everyone intrigued by the DE is racist, but let’s not be naive, the DE does provide, for those who seek it, an avenue for a fashionable re-branding of racism that allows them to fly below the radar.

        • chicagorefugee

          What is the point? Well, perhaps to establish a ‘no fault’ option with regard to observed differentials? To short circuit the blame game?

          Just spitballing ….

        • kenofken

          DE, under that name, is a new phenomenon to me, but I know a great deal about racists from within the pagan community, and in secular contexts. Racialists will tell you they’re not rac-IST because they don’t openly avow or own the idea of white supremacy. They’re just “racially aware”, you see, and calling out the harsh “truths” about racial difference. It’s all about love for one’s own “people”, not hatred of others…..

          It’s a distinction without a difference and one that doesn’t ring true with the whole of their word and action, and it’s a deceptive branding exercise to make the enterprise more intellectually saleable and palatable.

          One finds, always, that within this supposedly no-hate racialism, is a narrative in which the “data” just happens to support the White Race as the natural lords of creation. “We’re not calling ourselves superior, but the research shows…just sayin.” Two, within the “love our own people” narrative is always a sense of grievance, that the “other” races are getting over on them and abusing them and that “something” needs to be done.

          Racialists, who are really just “soft racists”, soft-peddle the ideas about what is to be done, so that they are not eaten alive by the media and SPLC lawyers and the FBI. They can always subsume their agenda somewhat into the immigration debate, and boy, do they have deep, deep concerns about Mexican immigration.

          One other curious thing about these cats….they are always, always, always never more than two degrees removed from “hard” racists orgs – serious, unapologetic, skinheadsand neo-Nazi. They always have this network of common associates and happen to turn up at each others strategy meetings and bike rides and midsummer blots and what have you.

          • Imrahil

            Hm… I’m kind-of suspicious of suspicion of motives. Though certainly those Confessing to DE here – on a rough gaze – made a bad job of presenting themselves.

            As has, for that matter, the general anti-racist mainstream (intended to be as a neutral description!).For opponents of the DE maybe think about race in the USA (which after all, I think, regularily queries for race in their surveys). But a slight check on the German Wikipedia should should make clear that it’s no conspiracy theory that over here, the very thought of race is majorly dismissed, and that quite unabashedly largely for political reasons. Understandable political reasons, to be sure, but that’s not what innocent information is about. If you allow to be tongue-in-cheek about as controversial a matter, that sort of science has not changed any skin color though.

            If we don’t want people become racist, we had better not call people racist who merely rank skin-color under other nice-to-know informations.

      • Andy

        I rarely think about race – I accept people for who they are- maybe because I try to see people as people not race or category. As far your rather less then sophomoric response – please try to use what you claim is your superior abilities and thoughtfulness as a member of the superior group to be at least humorous.

      • Porphyry123

        trufeelbad from previous comment, results in deletion of malicious lies! glory to the truth!

      • http://chicagoboyz.net/ TMLutas

        Anybody who is serious about the truth and thinks that actual HBD puts whites on top is seriously deluded. Every time I dig into the statistics it seems like whites are middle of the roaders and not superior at all.

        I’m never in favor of scientism and white supremacy clothed in HBD is scientism straight up.

    • HornOrSilk

      How is it a “no true catholic” fallacy? He isn’t saying there is no such thing as a true Catholic. He is saying, following the dictates of the Church’s decrees, racism is not acceptable from a faithful Catholic. That’s not a fallacy, anymore than saying “Chocolate cake isn’t ice cream” isn’t a “no true ice cream fallacy.”

      • Porphyry

        “racism is not acceptable from a faithful Catholic” Begging the Question much? Don’t comment if you don’t know what the fallacy is. And you clearly don’t.

        • HornOrSilk

          The Catholic Church defines itself. The Catholic Church has rejected racism. It’s not begging the question. You are the one who seems to suggest an entity is unable to define itself. Of course, it seems you don’t know the fallacy and end up “begging the question.” Show how Mark Shea is engaging a “no true Catholic” fallacy. He’s not made a definition which rejects Catholics from existence, but he does allow the Catholic Church to define its own members and its requirements for membership. It’s like saying “It’s a no true woman’s club, when you deny men from being women.”

          I’ve noticed this with the DE defenders here: they are very sophomoric in their use of fallacies.

          • Porphyry123

            My mistake, I didn’t realize Mark had been elected pope. Hail Mark Shea the new pope! He should be be better than Francis.

            • HornOrSilk

              You continue to ignore the Church’s own self-designations.

              • Porphyry456

                Was one hail not good enough for you? Here’s some more Hail! Hail! Hail! Mark Shea, the only authority for not only catholic belief, but all of christian belief as well.

                • HornOrSilk

                  You continue in your delusions, which acts as if there is no official teaching source people can refer to. Mark already has (as I have, too). Pointing to it doesn’t make Mark define anything, but shows the Church’s self-designation. But your blather here shows the immaturity of your position

            • http://chicagoboyz.net/ TMLutas

              CCC 1935 is a reference. You can find a copy in English here:
              http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1935.htm

              There are plenty of other copies floating around if you prefer different sourcing.

              While there are probably DE arguments that could stay on the right side of the Catechism, you’re not making them so it’s hard to tell whether DE wants to stay on the right side of the Catechism. When you start actually confronting authoritative positions of the Church like CCC 1935, you will have a choice to make. Either stay with the Church and clean out any racists among your ethnonationalists in the DE or stick with the racists and abandon the Church.

              I hope you choose well.

        • chezami

          CCC 1935 The equality of men rests essentially on their dignity as persons and the rights that flow from it:

          Every form of social or cultural discrimination in fundamental personal rights on the grounds of sex, race, color, social conditions, language, or religion must be curbed and eradicated as incompatible with God’s design.40

          Hey! Whaddaya know! Opposition to racialism from an actual Cathedra in an actual Cathedral. In fact, the Real Cathedral!

    • chezami

      Okay. Now we’re getting somewhere. Note to self: DE types are fond of leaping from ‘race exists” to racialism as the all controlling narrative of everything and, conversely, they love to pretend that people who deny that race is the all-controlling narrative of everything “don’t acknowledge race exists.” So far, this comports with the behavior of most monomaniacal ideologues I’ve encountered in other forms of heresy.

    • http://chicagoboyz.net/ TMLutas

      Since Shea did recognize that race exists (it’s a subset of “kinds” in the post above) you’re just misinterpreting the article. You might want to watch out for picking more fights than you have to.

      Catholicism is about all of us members of humanities uniting past our differences in the common task of getting to Heaven. Sometimes in-group solidarity is helpful to the project. Sometimes it is a barrier. Where it is helpful, the Church uses it. Where it is not, the Church takes a different attitude. In either case, the goal of the institutions remains orthogonal to race. Catholics who get lost in the weeds and forget what’s the point are in very dangerous territory because they may gain the world but lose their souls.

    • Dan C

      “Oh the irony. Shea commits the no true catholic fallacy, by arguing that true Catholics don’t acknowledge that true race exist which involves denying true patriotism. Because, of course, no true catholic actually believes that true people groups truly form a unit. Therefore, if you are a true Mark Shea approved truthink catholic, truly, there is no such thing as truly having a race.”

      Tragically racial superiority does not include an ability to write well.

  • KM

    After reading much of the commentary below, I would rather hang out with friendly sociable persons of any race (which means “lower IQ” in HBD world) over many of these “high IQ” anti-social HBD types. Individual people are fascinating when you get to know them.

    I live in Silicon Valley among many different “races,” and the individual people I meet and live among each day are simply interesting and don’t fit stereotypes. I just met a genuinely kind and gentle man who is a Sikh. He is a caring father to his two young daughters. He runs his own business while his wife works as a nurse. They’re just everyday people, like you and me, trying to care for their families and community amid an economic downturn. Each one has an interesting story to tell if you stop to listen.

    Setting aside the odious racism (and sexism) inherent in HBD “philosophy,” the HBD “movement” is just uptight and irritating. They complain that they are victims even though they have such superior IQ’s. So why not take your “superior” IQ and solve community problems? Why not just get out more, meet everyday people, and do something good for others?

    Maybe turn off the computer and join a community service group of some kind. Develop a curiosity about people around you. Solve problems on the local level. All this energy devoted to long-winded defenses of HBD/DE racial angst seems wasted.

  • http://www.haroldcarper.com/ Harold Carper

    Exo 20:12 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

    Pro 6:16-19There are six things that the LORD hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers. Whoever goes about slandering reveals secrets; therefore do not associate with a simple babbler.

    1 Pet 2:1 So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander.

  • anna lisa

    Mark, I couldn’t get through all the “flaming poop” on this thread. What en exciting job you have! You must feel like you work in a mental hospital at times. Anyhow, sorry about that. I’m going to send you a late Christmas card of my beautiful family. My children are Scotch, Irish, English, German, French, Polish, and Colombian. Our surname is Portuguese, and is also a Greek word. There is surmised to be Indian (American) and African blood. both of our Spanish surnames have a Jewish origin.
    Keep being God’s Ninja :)
    P.S. four of my six boys are nerds but they manage to hide it pretty well. Not one of them has a hard time getting a date.

  • tz1

    Vox Day is far from a Calvinist. So much so that there is actually a “Team Calvin” comprised of regular readers of his blog. (Full disclosure, I’m probably Capt. Catholic).

    You will probably complain ghat people don’t actually read and understand what the Catholic church actually believes, then go ahead and label or stereotype someone else instead of engaging.

    Vox doesn’t delete any post or ban any poster who doesn’t troll (make a nusiance of himself). Feel free to go there and join me and discuss any topic.

    Or continue to post whatever about the lite-endarnenment or whatever it is in imitation of those you criticize for having shallow or closed minds.

    Yes, on the internet is is a hazard, but this is not the case. Engage.

    Both you and Vox can learn from it.

  • Lee Penn

    The Chastisement for defying the Darkly Enlightened is … to experience the full terror of the Three Days of Dorkness.

    But seriously, folks … the historical precedent for the Dark Enlightenment is groups such as the Ariosophists and other occultic/racialist groups in Germany – groups that arose before World War I and prepared the way for millennarian, totalitarian racism in Germany. Check out the books by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke to get the details. (His books are available on Amazon.)

    Meanwhile, ponder the behavior and demeanor and charity (or lack thereof) of the Darkly Enlightened who have visited this board of late. If they are like this in our present peaceful and orderly “1913″ state, what will they be like if we have our own “1918,” “1923,” or “1933″ here, as occurred in Central Europe?

    Lee

    • chezami

      “Three Days of Dorkness” Bwahahaha!

      Yeah, that’s why I’ve left their comments up. They’ve done a masterful job of showing what they are all about.

    • Heather

      Your first paragraph may well be the Best Comment Ever.

  • Dan

    I would consider myself strongly religious and Christian. I figured out much of what you call the dark enlightenment on my own.

    Here is a frank discussion of the African space program supported by African governments and taken seriously by many African people.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/9573163.stm
    The article ends thusly:
    “Walking away from the African Space Research Programme, I had to feel some sneaking admiration for Chris’s ambition, if not a great deal of confidence that Uganda’s first manned space shuttle will be lifting off from Kampala within the decade.
    It made me think of a line from a Robert Browning poem: “Ah, but a man’s reach should exceed his grasp, or what’s a heaven for?””

    Africans are unable to achieve manned space flight and so many other things. I have worked for the US Patent Office for over a decade and have seen not one thing from any Subsaharan country ex. South Africa out of hundreds of thousands of documents I have looked at. I have seen almost nothing from the Middle East or Latin America for that matter. And what about quality classical orchestras or complex architecture? Whole sections of the globe and whole peoples offer nothing like this.

    So? The body of Christ is large and we can share right? Absolutely, and I would like to be charitable and have already given a lot of money and time. Cognitive differences among groups are real, and they are enormous but people have various gifts, and not all gifts are economic. Unto whom much is given much is expected. Very good so far.

    The final problem, and the reason why it all is breaking down, is that the groups with the lowest average cognitive level have the highest rates of fertility while the groups with the highest average cognitive level have the lowest rates of fertility. This was somewhat true in the past, but then death rates matched birth rates, higher in some societies and lower in others. It is not true now, with the fertility of the Germans and Japanese being 1/4 of that of Africans while death rates have become low everywhere.

    The result is that the near future will be numerically dominated by groups that have lower average cognitive levels, unless trends shift dramatically. As Zimbabwe and South Africa show in relation to Europeans, and as Nazi Germany, and many Middle-Eastern nations have showed vis-a-vis the Jews, majoritarian groups with lower average cognitive levels can be quite eliminationist toward a cognitively advanced group living among them, even if civilization itself declines as a result. And even in the event that a cognitively less-advanced majority is not feeling eliminationist, civilization is still expected to decline because groups with a lower level of average cognitive ability cannot maintain as complex a civilization. Democracy seems like a big problem in this climate.

    The ‘dark enlightenment’ is not any kind of belief system; it is just a collection of painful realities that we wish were not true but which people who plan for the future must think about. I am a Christian traditionalist father with four children and a devoted wife who homeschools them and tries to keep them pure. I honestly don’t know what to do.

    The ‘dark enlightment’ (of which dramatic demographic shifts are to me the central thing) consumes a large share of my thinking because it is to me an enormous problem not now solved. If you have known only summer, and winter is approaching and you have no shelter or plan for surviving it, you will either be utterly obsessed with the problem at hand or seek mental distraction knowing that winter is only slowly approaching. But it keeps getting colder as the march of the demographic shift continues.

    Where do my religious views fit in to this? I don’t know. I earnestly pray: God, if you are there, help me know what to do for myself and my family. Do I try to survive, and to preserve the good that is seemingly vested in the DNA of my diminishing ethnic people by favoring intra-racial pairings of my children? If I am selfless-minded about that seemingly racist preservation, will you understand? Do I charitably encourage my children to marry into less gifted groups, even though that seems to ‘split the difference’ and reduce critical top performance?

    God, am I supposed help solve this mushrooming demographic crisis? It sure doesn’t seem to be solving itself. Are we so sinful that we need to lose many of the riches of this world, with demographic shifts toward the darker ‘sun peoples’ being the mechanism for an increase in poverty that inspires holiness? That is the best way that I can reconcile what is happening with a faith that demands purpose. That is not a new idea: it was fleshed out by St. Augustine in De Civitate Dei in the 5th century to console Christians after Rome was sacked by barbarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_God_(book)). One thousand years of a lower standard of living lay ahead but in terms of the peoples’ life of faith it had a bright side.

    • Heather

      Wow. You really think that the reason sub-Saharan Africa doesn’t have a strongly developed space program and doesn’t send much to the US patent office is seriously that they’re just inherently less clever than white people? Social, political, and economic factors that are largely a heritage of a long period of European domination and exploitation doesn’t have anything to do with it?

      Quality classical orchestras, eh? Yes, CLEARLY the fact that some other countries do not share Western European cultural musical taste on a large enough scale to place an emphasis on “quality classical orchestras” is a clue to how inherently dumb they must be.

      Yeesh. What nonsense.

      How about you charitably encourage your children to marry whoever they want to start a family with, rather than fretting about whether they might add poor inherently dumb “sun peoples” genetic stock into your family tree?

      • Dan

        There is an abundance of evidence for group differences in cognitive and other averages. Here is a good place to start to get up to speed. There is an abundance of information available but what is notable about the detailed materials below is that the list is maintained by a blogger who is black/biracial and a liberal.
        http://jaymans.wordpress.com/hbd-fundamentals/

        If you doubt his ethnicity, there is a picture of him in one of his blog posts — see if you can find it.

        • chezami

          So what? Who cares? Why should a Catholic give a shit?

        • Heather

          Why would I care about verifying the “ethnic credentials” of some dude on the internet?

          I live in one of the most ethnically cosmopolitan cities in the world. Literally half the population was not born in the country, and literally half the population is some kind of visible minority. Gee, the place must be going to hell in a handbasket with all these “cognitively disadvantaged” dark people flooding in! It must be a hotbed of ethnic tension!

          Well… I see people of all different ethnicities in all sorts of different professions and I don’t think the large number of dark skinned people I have met who are much smarter than me got the memo that their brains are at a disadvantage. Is everything perfect? Of course not. But the only thing I see truly going to hell in a handbasket around here is Rob Ford’s career.

          • Dan

            The list of formerly great United States cities that have literally collapsed into failed and crime-ridden ruins as European populations were replaced by ‘visible minorities’ is long and growing. Detroit, Atlanta, Baltimore, Philadelphia, Cleveland, Camden, Oakland, St. Louis, Memphis, Birmingham, Milwaukee, Kansas City, Richmond are a sampling of the larger ones.

            Obviously the particular mix of ‘visible minorities’ matters a lot in this and your city is not demographically like one of the above.

            As Christians are we called to be so sacrificial as to literally give up our civilization? If that happens, then we aren’t in a position to help very many people.

            • Heather

              Well we do have the advantage of not having such a long history of the slave trade which means we don’t have such a large number of people who were systematically subjugated as a matter of public policy up into living memory. That definitely helps the whole racial tension thing. (Oh, but wait, segregation isn’t subjugation to you, it’s the natural order of things, so I’m not sure that argument will hold water.)

              Are you claiming that if systematic ethnic segregation and redlining policies had been maintained in these cities in order to keep the African Americans in their place, and if they’d prevented immigration from non-Europeans, Detroit for instance would still be a prosperous and harmonious capital of industry? Corporations wouldn’t have moved nearly all manufacturing jobs overseas to places without pesky things like workplace safety regulations, child labor prohibitions, and American level wages?

              Gee, wouldn’t it be nice if the world really was that simple and you really could blame all social and economic problems on a single simple factor. People in areas with political and/or economic instability do poorly because they’re just born that way. Right.

    • Andy

      I do not know where to begin – to confuse cognitive ability with what is taught in schools suggests that you believe all knowledge is present in people from birth – seems weird to me. To suggest that DNA drives cognitive ability is at best a repeat of highly suspect research – suspect because of design, because of the use of statistics to compare routs without controlling for multiple variables and suspect because of a priori reasoning.
      Your work in the patent office and what you deduce from it ignores a simple proposition – the need for education. The areas you say produce nothing in terms of patients also have been exploited for many years, both by “outsiders” and tribal issues. They do not value education as we do – they value survival, and in many if not all cases they see the need for a greater community to survive.
      As far as the “sun people” go -a neat new term for the “evil blacks” – you consign them to being dumb brutes, savages planning the overthrow of the “greater” non-sun people. This is racist beyond belief – it is far more dangerous than what I have read of other defenders of DE because you attempt to wrap your beliefs in language that appears sophisticated, in structures of language that seem reasoned – beneath it all you see only the color of skin and how that will hurt you.
      Instead of trying to encore your off-spring to marry who they want – you might more in charity and humility ask forgiveness of those you deem as less then you. The hubris to think that the non-su=people are God’s designated protectors of good in found in the Bible nowhere.

      • Dan

        Andy — I do not blame you for your outrage. It was not long ago that I angrily branded a friend racist for noticing differences in crime statistics. It was only later on circumspection that I realized he was not trying to be hateful and that he was sincerely troubled. But your response is not well thought out. I’ll try to respond:

        (1) “you believe all knowledge is present in people from birth” — where did I ever say or suggest such a thing. The painful reality is that the ability to learn is not evenly distributed. It is here that vast differences exist.

        (2) “To suggest that DNA drives cognitive ability is at best a repeat of highly suspect research” — somehow DNA controls everything else, but is not allowed to work in the brain, even though the vast majority of genes are expressed in the brain? Genetics is not the only element of cognitive ability, but to say that genetics endows everyone equality in cognitive aspects (but not in height, stamina, looks, and so forth) is wishful thinking. In any case, this is brand new research that was not possible before sequencing, circa 2014.
        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10631319/Is-intelligence-written-in-the-genes.htmlhttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10631319/Is-intelligence-written-in-the-genes.html

        (3) “They do not value education as we do” — This to me is the most patronizing of views. With school standardized tests, I hated when everyone shared their scores with one another. It became clear to me that some of my peers who were trying terribly hard and studying for long hours, and especially some black and hispanic peers, just were not doing that well. I am not the sharpest tool in the shed either, although I am above average in some respects. Studying physics at a well-ranked college, I did tolerably well, but it was quite difficult for me and I put forth enormous effort. A few of my classmates did as well or better while expending much less effort, and no other conclusion could be reached than that they simply had more horsepower under the hood than me, so to speak. I wasn’t able to go on to the next level of a doctoral physics program — for all my effort I was missing too much in relation to those special people who really had it. It hurt to not understand graduate physics courses well, to get lost in the math, and to see people who were just smarter. But the reality was inescapable.

        (4) “As far as the “sun people” go -a neat new term for the “evil blacks”” — Actually not. I was attempting to cover multiple equatorial groups. For reasons that are not entirely clear, higher cognitive averages are seen among the people whose ancestors hail from colder climates. The foresight and planning required to make provisions of food and shelter for long winters has often been suggested as a cause of this difference.

        (5) “The hubris to think that the non-su=people are God’s designated protectors of good in found in the Bible nowhere.” I suggested nothing of the sort. In fact, I find the opposite to be true. These days, sadly, Europeans and East Asians while cognitively and technologically advantaged, do not stand out in terms of goodness and virtue. It seems, instead, that sun peoples (and I do not mean this term as a perjorative) tend to be more faithful and more religious. In conclusion, I wondered if God is willing to allow outward civilization to diminish if faithfulness and humbleness (inward civilization) thrives. That is not implausible, although that is not what I want to accept.

        • Andy

          self-deleted – I see no value in continuing a conversation

    • Dan C

      “Where do my religious views fit in to this? I don’t know. I earnestly pray: God, if you are there, help me know what to do for myself and my family. Do I try to survive, and to preserve the good that is seemingly vested in the DNA of my diminishing ethnic people by favoring intra-racial pairings of my children? If I am selfless-minded about that seemingly racist preservation, will you understand? Do I charitably encourage my children to marry into less gifted groups, even though that seems to ‘split the difference’ and reduce critical top performance?”

      Being of Irish- descent, and then marrying someone of English descent, clearly I have chosen to water down my genes.

      Is this what you mean? Because this is what worried my Irish grandmother and grandfather.

      My grandfather, an old Irishman and revolutionary was prone to fits of hysteria. Once, when he was old and living in his South Philly row house with his adult children, he thought he would die. He insisted his children call the priest. Loud, likely drunk, he was giving what he thought was his last confession, releasing this secret which festered inside him for years. “Father , I have something awful to tell you. “. “Yes, my son.” “Father, It’s hard for me to say.” “God will forgive your sins, my son.”

      “Father, I was born in Liverpool.”

      This is the ridiculousness of clannishness.

    • Dan C

      In all these discussions, one avoids the discussions of Asians and South Asians. And somewhat tropical, do South Asians equate with “Sun Peoples?”

      If a race has improved performance measures, will you recommend breeding into that line to your children?

      You seem to set up with the presumption of Northern European dominance in matters of intellect and performance. This is arguable.

      You exclude possibilities that your “white” DNA (which is really what you are talking about) can’t be improved upon because of your genetic inheritance’s obvious superiority. (Which is so ironic in so many ways.)

      Dude, you are a mess.

    • http://www.likelierthings.com/ Jon W

      Dan, I don’t know you beyond your posting here, and you are obviously free to reject this, but if I was to make a guess, it seems to me that you and your family are living with a serious spirit of fear and despair, and this fear and despair is causing you to obsess with things that belong only to God. I know this is probably coming off as incredibly condescending, but I’ve spent a good part of my own life living with the same sense of despair and fear of the future, and it’s not from Christ. Your post reeks of it.

  • Jonna

    Honestly, the less attention paid to these folks the better.

    • HornOrSilk

      Sometimes, that is true. However, sometimes letting it stay in darkness lets the darkness spread. And that is what is happening with this kind of junk.

      • Rosemarie

        +J.M.J+

        Maybe what’s needed is for someone to work on a systematic, thorough rebuttal HBD. We’ve seen bits and pieces of rebuttal here and in the (now closed) combox of the previous post, but more is needed.

        When society deems something taboo, some people will eventually challenge and/or break the taboo. Sometimes this is done in the name of humor, such as with Andrew Dice Clay or South Park. But other times it will be dead serious. Racism has been taboo in the West for decades, and maybe we’ve just taken it for granted that prejudging people by their skin color, nationality or ethnicity is so obviously, self-evidently wrong. So now some transgressive types have come along and said, “Maybe it’s not wrong after all.” They won’t take “No, it is!” as an answer. They’ve challenged a long-held assumption, which now must be defended.

        • SteveP

          There is no rebuttal to identity; to attempt to rationalize a basis for identity you end up nullifying the person. Thus the success of identity politics in a Christian-heritage contemporary community – persons are important.

        • Dan

          A rebuttal of human biological diversity would be what… proving human biological sameness? How do you plan to do that?
          Look, people like me are just observers of the work of large numbers of researchers. We aren’t the ones you need to rebut.
          If you want to do a rebuttal, this list (by an multiracial black blogger no less) would be a good place to start.
          http://jaymans.wordpress.com/hbd-fundamentals/

          I hope you have a pot of coffee ready! And I hope you are boning up on your genetics because the latest stuff is harder to rebut.
          http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10631319/Is-intelligence-written-in-the-genes.html

          Shoot the messenger if you wish (OMG, did someone just call me a racist on teh internet?) but if you want to do the job right, you are going to have to shoot some scientists. You’d need to load up — there are a lot of them! [Dear NSA, I do not advocate for Rosemarie to shoot scientists, I just employ rhetoric. Love, A peaceable citizen.]

          • Rosemarie

            +J.M.J+

            Actually, when I said someone should, I didn’t mean myself. I have too much else to do with my time; you’re really not important enough to make a top priority. And I have no intention of “shooting” anyone so cool your jets.

            • http://www.likelierthings.com/ Jon W

              I considered asking serious questions of those guys, but I feared getting dragged into an argument based on a lot of unspoken assumptions I wouldn’t realize at first that they were making and which I would discover with horror I had implicitly accepted just by arguing with them on an online forum like this. If I knew someone who thought like this, whom I could engage as a human being, it would be different. But I think the real question to be asked of these guys is, “So, what? Human biodiversity? Who gives a rip? On what possible teleology of the human race could you possibly justify whatever policy you advocate?”

              These guys need to read Alasdair MacIntyre. Their observations about “family” and “blood” have a far more plausible basis.

              • SteveP

                One does not need to strain to hear the variation of the “Born That Way” melody in HBD proponent’s chants. The theme has played very well in the US recently – who gets how much from the Treasury. While I agree that MacIntyre is more than a worthwhile read, he does not have the answer to covetousness.

          • Dan C

            This story is less complicated by genetics than by statistics. Lots of linear regression attempting to identify the genetic basis for a thinning of the cortex. Maybe they find one that can account for some cause of thinner cortexes which maybe is correlated to intelligence. The polymorphism accounts for 0.5% of the difference of intelligence, maybe. Not 0.5% of total IQ.

            This is minute and unlikely to bear out in any future study. The methodology has to be replicated and this tiny difference won’t catch any attention for anyone to expend huge efforts to further investigate a factor accounting maybe for possibly less than one percent of the DIFFERENCE in IQ.

            Not a smoking gun.

            Oh- and epigenrtics dude, those influences of the environment on genome functioning. Look there. And then look at epigenetics and stress and poverty.

            • Dan

              DanC — I don’t want to trouble myself with someone whose grasp of the science is mediocre at best, but I’ll spend a little time.

              First the difference in average g-scores among whites and blacks is not small: it has generally been estimated to be 1.1 standard deviations.This gap has roughly persisted for as long as it has been measured, i.e. across many decades.

              But the second thing you are trying to get at is something called “epigenetics”. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. ~Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride.

              If you want to really educate yourself on epigenetics (and it is not clear to me that you do) here is a good place to start is with actual scientists rather than the mainstream media that just churns out second or third-hand soundbytes:

              http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2011/08/21/is-epigenetics-a-revolution-in-evolution/

              We see things like

              “in environmental modifications of nucleotides—things like methylation of nucleotide bases or changes in DNA-associated proteins like histones—that can temporarily modify genes and affect their actions. I
              say “temporarily,” because such environmental modification of DNA, while it can be adaptive, is not usually passed on from one generation to the
              next.”

              “But an “imprinted” gene is reset each generation: the imprinting disappears and has to re-form depending on which sex the gene is in.”

              Did you get that? Still not changed from one generation to the next. Kind of a fly epigenetics ointment, wouldn’t you say, dude?

              • HornOrSilk

                Anyone who thinks IQ tests are scientific have no sense of science and have no business calling others grasp of science “mediocre at best.” Stop projecting.

              • chezami

                Dude. Dan C is a doctor. He’s familiar with science. You are a guy who has cobbled together some bullshit quasi-science to confirm your terrors about the foreign horde coming to swallow your race. What you need to do is try listening to the teaching of the Church and of Jesus Christ.

              • Dan C

                Epigenetics affects germ lines. Methylation imprinting identifies parental donation of a given allele. The varied identifications of uniparental disomy, or the distinction between Prader-Willi and Angelmann syndrome is determined through the evaluation of this epigenetic process. It is not temporary, despite your claims otherwise.

                Nature Neuroscience in December (highlighted in Nature magazine-a journal I peruse for fun) noted the particular experiment in which traumatic events are transmitted transgenerationally, perhaps via epigenetics. It seems this has been a growing field of inquiry- previous studies did note that disease transmission (like cardiovascular disease) could be transmitted generationally. I would check that fascinating article’s bibilography for a fun review of generational epigenetic consequences.

                I think this is an interesting area of inquiry that a brilliant scientific mind like your certainly knew about, and was, of course, just for the sake of brevity and communication to an inferior like me, chose to exclude this information from your summary. But, that word, epigenetics, which encompasses many areas of extra-genetic gene regulatory modification from histone modification to sRNA, tRNA, and microRNA functionalities may be something of which I know a little.

                So then, we come to the concerns of a complex trait like performance on IQ tests and then choose to make the leap from performance to genetics. It is here that I indicate that individual performance and epigenetics may have an impact. At which point, you then berate my clearly inferior scientific knowledge, somehow leaping from a test performance to genetic transmission of IQ as if nothing happens between zygote formation and the test. There may be some environmental events that happens in between that result in epigenetic impacts to neural regulation. Again, I am sure you withheld that discussion since I am such a scientific inferior.

                Thank you for helping me out. It has been a fascinating discussion and I am glad you so deigned to inform me of such important data as transgenerational genomic imprinting, a discussion of mechanisms of gene regulation.

                Or was that me?

                (Hint: I may know a bit about these matters, and I found the Molecular Psychiatry article to be a mess. I read and understood the article, but the use of the statistics I found to be somewhat unconvincing. Very preliminary data and unlikely to be found to be significant.)

          • chezami

            You should spend less time on the internet listening to crackpots and more time learning your Faith.

        • KM

          There are some excellent rebuttals to HBD/DE at various blogs but the HBD/DE people refuse to read it. When they do, they respond with long obtuse rants. One rebuttal I’ve seen states quite correctly that HBD boils down to Darwinism.

          This HBD/DE debate has been going on since about 2009. I think HBD/DE people are desperately trying to remain relevant and this is how they try, by getting a few days worth of their arguments on unsuspecting blogs.

          • chezami

            Pride is always self-insulating.

      • Jonna

        Maybe you’re right, I don’t know, but do you or anyone commenting here have real life contact with people who hold these views? I don’t. My guess is that these movements thrive on free publicity, and left without it, eventually become circular firing squads. As I’ve mentioned before, early desert fathers point out that Jesus did not engage with the satan when tempted in the desert, but quoted a simple Scripture to avoid becoming riveted on the inner chatter that blocks the silence where God speaks.

        I understand the desire to expose stuff like this, but question whether the focus helps to diffuse it.

        • KM

          I agree with you Jonna. I have faith that Mark will probably shut this down eventually, because at this point it just seems to be going in a circular reasoning cycle with no end. I’ve seen enough of it to convince me it’s a “philosophy” not worth anyone’s attention, so mission accomplished.

          I think one of the reasons Mark got punked was that the HBD types didn’t want to be dismissed, so they baited him to get a laugh, then to get their rants on his blog. Free advertising, but in their case I don’t think it’s good advertising. So Mark was correct to let them show their true colors, but now they’re getting tiresome. (I actually thought they were tiresome years ago since I’ve seen them swarm other blogs like locusts.)

          • chezami

            I decided to let them have the run of the comboxes because–wise fools–they managed to convince themselves that the big story was that I believed the lie… and they proceeded to document in spades the real issue: that they are proud racialist heretics who hol both the faith and most of the human race in contempt. I wanted to give them plenty of rope and they’ve taken it all and then some. Any normal person can see them clearly for what they are.

            • KM

              I thank you for that, Mark. You’re a brave and humble man to take that chance willingly, and to put up with the vindictive barbs. I think you made the right call because the truth of their anti-christian philosophy has been laid bare via their contempt for humanity and their racism. It’s been an eye-opener for me. God bless you, Mark, for the work you do.

    • SteveP

      Ignore them if you want; they are another manifestation of identity politics which has been the most successful, since say 1960, in grabbing and maintaining power.

      You cannot control what they choose or do not choose but you can ensure they have heard the Good News.

  • Robin-Frans Winkel

    Not just Europeans, but also other traditionally Catholic groups can join in the fun:

    http://oogenhand.wordpress.com/2012/12/06/aztec-pyramids-shirk/

    “Would Islamic rule in Mexico destroy the Aztec pyramids as relics of idolatry? Likely yes. That is why my religion gives Mexican gangbangers like MS-13 and the Zetas a “hunting permit” on Muslims, that is organized “crime” is no longer considered organized crime. Catholicism doesn’t do this, Evangelicalism doesn’t do this. Mexicans returning to their ancestral religion should understand that Muslims consider Christians to be People of the Book, but don’t consider their religion to be. Think of it, N.M. Valdez, and Olin Tezcatlipoca.”

  • Dan C

    Genes are not destiny. Epigenetics has re-written the nature vs. nurture argument. Epigenetics infleunces gene function dramatically, and such things as investigations of stress on genomic function and poverty in genomic function are nascent and revealing.

    • KM

      Everything old is new again. Modern genome science is the old eugenics recycled. HBD racial scientism is a fatalistic anti-christian vision that states our lives have no purpose because our genes determine our outcome.

      Our American Dream — which rejects the idea that biology equals destiny — gave people hope that they could have a better
      life despite their class/biological background. Belief in recycled eugenics (and the destruction of The American Dream which says we can aspire to something better) works to the benefit of our elites who helped create the growing inequality that divides our society.

    • olorin

      Epigenetics works for plants. Not humans.

      Get yer science straight, ye followers of a mediaeval papist empire who believe wine is blood coz some guy in a dress rang a bell over it.

      • chezami

        What would a doctor know about epigenetics compared to Some Racist with a Keyboard Who Has Read a Website or Two?

      • Dan C

        Wow. You demonstrate ignorance in two matters with so few words. Fascinating. The anti-Catholic bigotry is not likely to be changed. However, there are plenty of substantive reviews on the web available to you on human and mammalian epigenetics.

  • KM

    Rebecca Taylor is a Technologist in Molecular Biology and a practicing Catholic who writes at the blog http://www.marymeetsdolly.com, a “Catholic’s guide to Genetics, Genetic Engineering and Biotechnology.” Her viewpoint is relevant to this discussion because HBD is related to the new eugenics.

    Here are two related articles by her:

    How Modern Eugenics Discounts Human Dignity
    http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/how-modern-eugenics-discounts-human-dignity1/

    Eugenics Still Coercive and Devoid of Real Compassion
    http://www.creativeminorityreport.com/2014/02/eugenics-still-coercive-and-devoid-of.html

    • KM

      Also wanted to add:

      Transhumanism is the underlying philosophy of the new eugenics which seeks a utopia (or dystopia, really) of technologically enhanced “posthumans.” “The fundamental ideas of transhumanism were first mooted in 1923 by the British geneticist, J.B.S. Haldane… In particular, he was interested in the development of the science of eugenics,…”

      Transhumanists “are for the most part atheists, agnostics or secular humanists….Many transhumanists argue that transhumanism should be seen as a secularist faith.”

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism

      • Dan

        Not a transhumanist!

        Just a guy observing that if we replace European people in America with people from the third world through unrestricted immigration, it is likely that America will become much more like the third world for reasons that can’t be overcome by education or environment.

        And that wouldn’t be helpful to anybody. At that point, we could not be very helpful even to the third world.

        • http://www.likelierthings.com/ Jon W

          What do you think is the end of these policies you’re subtly advocating (e.g. keep the “sun people” out of America)? Seriously, what are you trying to accomplish?

        • Dan C

          What about replacing the people of the America with South Asians or Asians?

          The world is not just “black and white.”

          (I found that to be quite funny.)

        • Dan C

          You are not a transhumanist, but a eugenicist. You seek to control the breeding stock of future generations in America.

  • Andy

    Although I said yesterday I would no longer respond to this thread – I changed my mind. It is time to call what DE and it adherents what they are – neo-racists. Neo-racism hides its odious beliefs in the language of science, it presents itself in a reasoned and apparently thoughtful manner. The neo-racists are using the language of genetics to present the conclusion that certain groups most notably those of Northern European descent are superior in terms of cognitive ability. They deny the influence of nature, they over-inflate the power genetics. It is an urbane attempt to continue the superiority of white culture, again Northern European White culture. We must be aware of this and engage them in a Christian manner, but we must also be aware of the Aryan nature of this movement.

  • Dan

    In response to Andy –
    “They deny the influence of nature” I think you mean to say nurture. Slip? In any case, hardly anyone says that nurture doesn’t matter.

    It seems to be clearly true that genetics and heredity affect cognition a great deal. Is someone a racist for knowing that? If so then I suppose I am stuck being a racist because I can’t very easily go back in time and un-know what I know now. In any case, if God is out there, then he is surely aware of these things also, so at least I can find comfort from being in good company.

    One could persuade every last man, woman and child that genetics and heredity did not affect cognition and genetics and heredity would go right on affecting cognition, against the wishes of everybody. A frustrating problem I think.

    “but we must also be aware of the Aryan nature of this movement”
    Heh! One of the few things that people on that corner of the Internet agree on is that Jewish people collectively have higher cognitive averages than other groups including so-called Aryans.
    This isn’t about hatred or racism or anything like that. It is just reality as it is.

  • Dan

    In response to DanC –
    You may be a doctor but you are no scientist. Scientist is a matter of attitude and temperament. A scientist is willing to follow the data no matter where it leads, no matter how uncomfortable the conclusions. And the data with regards to cognition and intelligence are uncomfortable indeed.

    Virtually all of the scientific research (and the observations of those willing to see) indicates that heredity impacts cognition a great deal. This is accepted and obvious to common people in many other countries, even without a proper understanding of genetics and how inheritance works.

    But it is not accepted here in America, for in America the great religion is not Christianity these days. The great religion in America these days is Equalism. Things aren’t allowed to be unequal even when in reality itself, that’s how things are. That was seen with the issue of gay marriage, where Equalism steamrolled Christianity (along with evolutionary biology for that matter).

    Equalism is, to my mind, a distortion of Christianity. Jesus values all, including the beggar and the prostitute. That is a spiritual and moral thing. It is not a statement that external measures are inherently equal. It is not a statement about the external world at all. And yet equality of external measures is our new religion. Actually it is not a new religion at all. It took the old form of Marxism, but the new form demands external sameness with regard to social measures.

    • chezami

      So, Dan. Tell us about your scientific training in the relevant fields. Also, talk about your theological support for racism.

    • http://www.likelierthings.com/ Jon W

      Dan,

      The point is not whether there are differences or not. No one denies there are differences. The problem is that you have no real moral or theological justification for whatever it is you imagine you want to do about those differences.

  • Dan

    A good comment on this at Rod Dreher’s blog at The American Conservative:
    “UPDATE: Reader Athanasius comments:
    Indiana has a GOP super-majority in its state senate, yet today, through procedural shenanigans, the attempt to bring a constitutional ban against gay marriage to a referendum in November has been defeated. Something is very wrong with our political system and society when an entire worldview, one that happens to be foundational to our civilization, is utterly impotent.

    Target can’t donate money to a candidate who opposes gay marriage without being forced (by whom? did they actually feel any economic effects in response to their actions?) to donate to gay marriage groups. The owner of Chick-fil-a can’t even express personal opposition to gay marriage without being forced to recant (again, by whom?). Yet, a mere 15 years ago the vast majority of Americans would not only have opposed gay marriage, they would have though it utterly absurd.

    No one seems to be able to stop or reverse massive non-European/non-Christian immigration. We have laws requiring border security and employment verification of legal status and verification of who enters and leaves the country, but these laws mysteriously go unenforced, regardless of the party in power. The GOP isn’t even trying to change this status quo–apparently all they can do is delay the legalization of open borders (i.e., the amnesty and attendant chain migration), which conveniently benefits those elites who like to underpay unskilled labor. 20 years ago, it would have been absurd to say “this isn’t just a Christian nation, it is a Buddhist nation, and a Hindu nation, and a Muslim nation…” but thanks to policies that, again, the vast majority of people didn’t want, and no one seemed able to stop, today a president can say that with a straight face.

    No one seems to be able to reverse the Sexual Revolution, or even attack it. The elites throughout the legal and academic world seem nearly unanimous that it has liberated us from some sort of stultifying mire of patriarchal oppression in which our grandparents lived. We are told by Kinsey and his cohort that our grandparents were hypocrites and if we should openly practice, no celebrate, promiscuity, buggery, ephemeral matrimony, and shacking up. Then we have foisted upon us the absurd conclusion that massive increases in rates of VD, illegitimacy, abortion, broken families and the attendant decreases in fertility, high investment parenting, and social cohesion are actually CAUSED by religion (and the religion in question always seems to be Christianity).

    Despite massive opposition, no one can actually stop affirmative action. Even when it is banned by a court, universities find ways around the ban. Again 50 years ago, it would have seemed absurd to let a black or woman into a university over a white male with a much high exam score; yet today, doing so is a matter of dogma. Why this fetish for “diversity”? Why can no one really question whether diversity is actually beneficial? It seems that homogenous countries like Japan and South Korea do pretty well.

    Despite massive promotion of Darwinian evolution throughout the popular culture (haha, look, it’s Jesus riding a t-rex), seemingly for the sole purpose of undermining our traditional religion (the American mos maiorum), no one is allowed to extrapolate the obvious conclusions of evolutionary biology that genetic cohorts (i.e., races) have differing rates of intelligence, strength, and agility and different behavioral traits, all of which evolved over the tens of thousands of years we were separated. Could it possibly be because such knowledge would render many of our policies (from affirmative action to bans on racial profiling) utterly irrational? The same applies to biological differences between men and women and the effect that recognition of such knowledge would have on such absurdities as claiming that physical tests for firemen and soldiers are “sexist.”

    Despite 60 years of modern conservatism, the USA has changed in ways that 1920′s Bolsheviks could have only dreamed of. So is it really any surprise that people are looking for alternatives to stem the tide? Heck, alternatives that offer the hope of actually advancing their interests! Isn’t that the point of politics?
    Most of these “Dark Enlightenment” bloggers (and that’s really all they are) are fantasists and contrarians with a weakness for obscurantist and melodramatic language. However, many of the writers whom they’ve claimed (e.g., Sailer) are serious thinkers who are challenging all of the above–all that is unchallengeable in politics, law, art, mainstream/mass journalism and most tragically, academia. If these are discussions that the elites of our society continue to suppress, I do think that we are the verge of a new political movement–one that will hopefully be led by cooler heads.”

    • chezami

      You still haven’t explained why you are a genius scientist while a doctor who understands genetics is a fool for not panicking over racist crap cobbled together from kooks on websites.


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