Mike Huckabee is lying. Again.

Former Southern Baptist pastor and former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee is not an honest man.

Huckabee has taken to repeating the lie that President Obama is a God-hating God-hater who refuses to say the word “Creator” when quoting from the Declaration of Independence.

This is a lie. Mike Huckabee is lying.

And Mike Huckabee is telling a particularly stupid lie. President Obama speaks in public, a lot. And almost every word he has said for the past several years has been recorded on video. So claiming that Obama never says something he says all the time — the president loves quoting the Declaration — either reveals Huckabee’s hamfistedness as a liar, or else it reveals his utter contempt for those in his audience, whom he assumes are too stupid not to just swallow every bogus word he feeds them.

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Why does this lapsed clergyman believe that bearing false witness is OK?

 

 

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  • Jim Roberts

    1. Cognitive dissonance.
    2. Tribalism.
    3. Too long in politics.
    4. All of the above.

  • reynard61

    “4. All of the above.”

    QFT, man. QFT.

  • PurpleAardvaark

    Why? Because he is a right-wing ideologue first and his days as a practicing member of the clergy are behind him. Unless he gets a job as Chaplain for Fox.

  • Carstonio

    I would love to see Huckabee on a news program confronted with that video and then challenged about his lie.

  • Tricksterson

    I suspect he would avoid any show he thought would do it like the plague.

  • Sally Fields

    I am sure he would have some excuse and hand-wave it away, pointing to that one time in the clip when Obama didn’t say Creator.

  • http://twitter.com/jclor jclor

    Mike Huckabee is lying.

    Are his lips moving again?

    Why does this lapsed clergyman believe that bearing false witness is OK?

    Perhaps he’s a lapsed Christian as well?

  • TheDarkArtist

    We really need to start using the word “christianist” in this country. That’s what these people are. They aren’t actual Christians, they’re just politicos who use the language and trappings of the Bible to their own ends, the same way that islamists aren’t actual Muslims, they just use the trappings and language of the Quran to justify their right-wing social ideals.

    Huckabee is about as close to God as a black metal band.

  • Fusina

     Huckabee is about as close to God as a black metal band.

    I dunno, I think there are some black metal bands that are closer. Or at least, they aren’t lying.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_FRDTPMBW7IBKWIU3763AI6FYOM Steve

    Well, that might depend on the god, of course…

  • AnonymousSam

    Samael says HAI DERE. For a great number of years, this song was the
    closest I could get to Christianity.

    They also have songs dedicated to Wicca, Pantheism and Satanism. ^_^

  • deathfrogg

    You’d be amazed at how many Black Metal or Death Metal bands are consisted of people who were raised in fundamentalist religious households.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=659001961 Brad Ellison

    I probably wouldn’t be.  To hate something as much as some of those guys seem to hate religion, you need have some intimate experience with it.

  • http://www.nightphoenix.com Amaranth

    Because in this political climate, even the most demonstrably false “fact” is “true” as long as at least one person in the country can be said to believe it.

    Because mere facts have no right to intrude upon the sacred territory of Personal Belief.

  • RJ (TO)

    “…his audience, whom he assumes are too stupid not to just swallow every bogus word he feeds them.”

    I’m thinking he’s assuming correctly. And COUNTING on it.

  • Lori
    “…his audience, whom he assumes are too stupid not to just swallow every bogus word he feeds them.”

    I’m thinking he’s assuming correctly. And COUNTING on it.

    See attached.

    Huckabee knows his audience. He can tell them anything negative about Democrats in general and Obama in particular, and I do mean anything, and as long as he mentions Jeebus they won’t even think to question it. Because Huckabee is a Christian, don’t ya know, and as one of our trolls informed us the other day CHRISTIANS CAN”T LIE  !!!elveventy!!!!!

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

    Because Huckabee is a Christian, don’t ya know, and as one of our trolls informed us the other day CHRISTIANS CAN”T LIE !!!elveventy!!!!!

    We can’t? Holy crap. I don’t know if that’s a super power or a super weakness.

  • Jim Roberts

    Well, it makes us more like Jim Carrey in Liar, Liar. So, curse.

  • banancat

    Maybe you took a magically binding oath on an oath rod? Oh wait, I’m thinking of a different group that can’t lie.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=667708632 Kenneth Raymond

    And yet the Aes Sedai have a (not entirely undeserved) reputation as the most disingenuous, devious people in the world despite such an oath. One mainly earned by talking around the truth instead of outright lying, which really is still deception. They don’t get an automatic pass on whatever they say.

    Now if only reality made as much sense as fiction.

  • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

    Definitely a super weakness.

    “I’m not coming to work today. No, I’m not sick, I just can’t face our asshole customers today.”

    “The check’s not in the mail.”

    “I’m breaking up with you. It’s not me, it’s you. I can’t listen to you eat cereal one more time. Also, I never really loved you. I just moved in with you to get out of my parents’ house.”

    “No, your baby’s not cute. It looks like a turnip.”

  • LL

    RE: “… or else it reveals his utter contempt for those in his audience, whom he assumes are too stupid not to just swallow every bogus word he feeds them.”

    He assumes that for a reason. It appears to be true. 

  • ReverendRef

    Why does this lapsed clergyman believe that bearing false witness is OK?

    The problem with that question is that it assumes that Mr. Huckabee didn’t bear false witness when he was working as a clergyman.  I could be wrong, but I’m willing to bet that he said the same kinds of things to his congregation as he now says to his voting supporters.

  • Jessica_R

    He’s not counting on his listeners being idiots, he knows they’re racist assholes like him, or he knows milking the anger of racist assholes is an always reliable meal ticket. 

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

     Yeah. This is something Fred’s touched on before. Some lies you tell to deceive, but some lies you tell as an invitation. Huckabee’s trying less to fool anyone, and more to invite people to reject reality and come live in his world of preferable untruths. He is counting less on his audience  believing his statements to be true, and more on his audience wanting his statements to be true.

  • Tommy_gil

    Jessica_r everbody who tell the truth are Racist assholes. Let me quess you are not a christian and hate what they stand for. You believe that Obama is doing a great job and you believe that the Goverment need to have more control of all the idiots out there because ,they are too stupid to understand what the Real World is like so we need somebody to tell us or guide us. I believe Mike pays 35% of his pay for taxes and he has 10 people working for him and he pays for their insurance,pay roll and taxes for them as well. How many people do you employ, how many people did you help today to make a living? Judge and be Judged!!!

  • Fdporter

    Huckabee must have a lot of money to spend, He advertises on TV and now is leaving BS lies on my answer machine. This guy is a politician under the disguise as a preacher? He is a pain in the ear and really hard to look at. What really is his agenda?

  • VMink

    I think that if someone is going to leave any sort of recorded political message on your answering machine, that they should at least have the decency to let you call them up and return the favor, and let you tell them exactly what you think of them.

  • http://www.facebook.com/richard.hansen.1675 Richard Hansen

     Huckabee’s comments certainly sound shocking, but what proof do we have that his allegation is simply a “particularly stupid lie?”
    And how does him quoting the Declaration of Independence prove he doesn’t hate that “Creator?” Obama’s trustworthiness has been in question, ever since he released that red herring of a birth certificate that was discovered to have been Photoshopped.

  • Albanaeon

     Well, at least trolls are consistent in lack of reading comprehension.

    Look Dick.  First, if you had read with the analytic skills of a middle schooler, you’d have seen that the lie is that Obama doesn’t say Creator.  He does.  Huckabee is lying.  Pretty simple.

    Second, considering that to know Obama hates God, it would require you to have ESP.  Which given your demonstrated intellectual abilities here seems unlikely.

    Finally, unless you’re talking about the faked Kenyan one, Obama’s birth certificate is as verified as it possibly can be.  Give it up already, you pathetic worm.

  • SisterCoyote

     I… I was assuming that was a post of sarcasm.

    That was sarcasm, right?

    …right?

  • Tricksterson

    No, this particular troll has shown uup before so this is not a Poe.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    No, this particular troll has shown uup before so this is not a Poe.

    Are you sure?  Because his pattern of comments across sites seems to be consistent with someone who just comes here to troll us for the lulz.  

  • Mark Z.

    He tried to troll us in another thread by being bad at algebra.

  • Jim Roberts

    [sarcasm] Who on earth are you replying to? Richard Hansen doesn’t exist. That’s not actually a post he made, and you can’t prove it. My nine-year-old could  photoshop something that looks like that. Oh, it shows up in your “RSS feed?” You just made that word up. You aren’t fooling me. I watch Maddow. I read Krugman. I know about the conservative conspiracy to make us think that some people are birthers. Were you there? WAKE UP SHEEPLE! [/sarcasm]

  • Joshua
  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Charity-Brighton/100002974813787 Charity Brighton

    You’ve killed us all.

  • PJ Evans

     FOAD, racist troll.

  • http://www.facebook.com/richard.hansen.1675 Richard Hansen

    You’re a liberal whose supposed to be tolerant. XD
    Guess you’re the racist now. 

  • AnonymousSam

    This word doesn’t mean what you think it means. Fuck off, you disgusting prick.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Be careful you’re not implicitly using the social-justice version, which means prejudice + power. A lot of people do not know this definition and even when they’re not being deliberately obtuse, will become justifiably annoyed at what they see as purposely changing the meanings of words for rhetorical sophistry.

  • CharityB

    Seriously, I keep rereading that post and that’s all I’m getting. “I’m not racist because I implicitly assume that anyone with a ‘foreign-sounding’ (read: non-WASP) name is untrustworthy and probably a crook.” That’s pretty much the standard, common definition of racism, isn’t it? He flat-out admitted that he would jump in to question the legal U.S. citizenship of a Barack Obama or a Sergei Nilov over, say, a Stephen Harper or a David Cameron, explicitly because the former two names sound “foreign” (which in this case pretty much just means non-white, doesn’t it?). 

  • Lunch Meat

    You’re a liberal whose supposed to be tolerant. XD

    LOL You’re so clever and original!!1!

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

     Ooh ooh! “Tolerate my intolerance”! I’ve got racist douchenozzle bingo!

  • Joshua

    Guess you’re the racist now.

    I take it back. You’ve had quite enough.

  • EllieMurasaki

    Obama’s trustworthiness has been in question, ever since he released that red herring of a birth certificate that was discovered to have been Photoshopped.

    I thought our deal with you was ‘we stop talking to you and you go away’. Not ‘we stop talking to you on one thread and you invade another with accusations that are, one, founded in the racism you claim not to possess, and two, are only actually believed by anyone because repetition makes things true, no matter how blatantly false the thing was the first time it was said’.

  • http://www.facebook.com/richard.hansen.1675 Richard Hansen

    I would “go away” only on that page. 

  • The_L1985

     Photoshopped?  Fascinating.  I didn’t think they had that in 1961.

    Tell me, is it really easier to be constantly fearful and suspicious of everyone who doesn’t think and act just like you?  Because it looks like a much more difficult and unfulfilling life to me.

  • Albanaeon

    Why does Huckabee think that it’s okay to lie?  Same reason Romney does.  Our media won’t call him on it.  Or they will, but softy and never mention it again so they can maintain “access.” 

    And even if they do, what will it really change?  As our recent spate of trolls demonstrated, some will just say they are lying too, or even more so.  Or they’ll just go “both sides do it” and pretend that they’ve found some moral high ground over everyone.

    It’s okay to lie because the people who are supposed to tell us that people are lying have abdicated that for a false sense of righteousness known as “fair and balanced.”  And we all get to suffer for it.

  • Hawker40

    “Again” or “Still”?

  • Carstonio

    For the sake of neutrality on religious matters, it should be emphasized that “Creator” in the Declaration shouldn’t be assumed to be referring to the Christian deity or any other religion’s deity. Particularly since many of the Founders were deists, plus the capitalization rules were obviously different back then. “Creator” could just as easily mean the undirected forces that caused humanity to exist.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Speaking of that birth certificate, has anyone proven wrong the “OMG TYPEWRITERZ IN THE 1950s COULDN’T KERN THE TEXT HURHURHUR” load of crap the birthers throw out?

  • PJ Evans

    I have to assume that none of them ever met an IBM Executive with its three space bars. It had four character widths, which was a close to kerning as they could come at the time – it came out in 1944 – and Ghu help you if you tried backspacing. (We had one at one place I worked. We used it for making labels for our products: they looked really nice using film ribbon.)

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    I started looking up samples of actual type from mechanical typewriters, and one thing that I started noticing was that it was easy to get the keys struck on the platen such that you could accidentally squash two letters together a bit, especially if you typed really fast or didn’t quite press the key all the way down so the carriage didn’t advance quite as far as the designer meant it to.

    I’ve got a cheap 1960s Olivetti, and the type looks pretty bad, but it was great for addressing envelopes because no printer except a dot matrix would ever do it properly. And even dot matrix printers could be a real crapshoot.

  • PJ Evans

     Yes; I learned to type on a manual typer. (Getting the keys unjammed was always a treat.) But the Executive really did do different widths of characters – I used it making those labels. That was in 1978, and it wasn’t a new machine. Never did figure out how to replace ribbon on it, but the reels were so big it wasn’t a big problem.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Huh, damn. Reels of ink so big you don’t need to change them *shakes head in amazement*. I can’t find reels for my Olivetti, and I’ve tried pretty hard to look :

    The next thing the Birthers have done is tried nitpicking the way the PDF and jpeg scans got made, which is just utterly ridiculous. Inexperienced people using scanners is what occurs to me.

    And then they’re down to “Ukelele” as a signature when it clearly says “Lee” at the end. (-_-)

    Oh, and questioning Ann Dunham’s signature as being “too perfect”! What, don’t any of these jackasses remember having cursive handwriting hammered into them in grade school? My mom has writing like that! I guess I should tell her all her signatures are null and void now, huh?

    PS. Oh, and questioning why the issue date is different than the date of birth?

    Jesus baldhaired Christ! Talk about grasping at straws! I’ve got a BC that was issued half a month after my date of birth! OH NOES I AM NOT A LEGAL CANADIAN.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

     My son is nine months old. We got his birth certificate about three weeks ago.

    “Fortunately”, my son is also white, so no one is ever going to question whether his US birth certificate is legitimate.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    It really boggles my mind just how fiercely people are digging to find any “proof” that Obama cannot be a legitmately elected President of the USA.

    There wasn’t even half this much kerfluffle when John McCain was found to have been born in Panama.

    And hell, this kerning thing, word for word, came up when the Dubya Bush Nat’l Guard papers apparently popped up. (Incidentally, why didn’t 60 Minutes focus on the fact that it is provable that Dubya Bush had a new driver’s licence [ and driver’s licence number ] issued in his name when he became Governor of Texas, which had the fortunate – for him! – side effect of causing destruction of the old licence and his old record!)

  • Ross Thompson

    Speaking of that birth certificate, has anyone proven wrong the “OMG TYPEWRITERZ IN THE 1960s COULDN’T KERN THE TEXT HURHURHUR” load of crap the birthers throw out?

    You could show them this IBM advert from 1954…

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Oh yeah, and “Photoshop”?

    AHEM, NO.

     
    Page | 3So we must begin with the software used to create the PDF itself.

    To Shop or Not To Shop:

    Zebest writes, I believe the certificate image was compiled and created in Photoshop.

    3

    This is aninteresting assertion, given that the software that created the PDF is not actually a function of belief butone of easily ascertainable fact. Right clicking on any PDF (in Microsoft Windows) will reveal theDocument Properties to include the software used to create the file. Here are those properties fromthe Obama birth certificate:As can be quickly seen, no Adobe product wasused to create this PDF. The application usedwas Preview; the basic graphics applicationmade by Apple that has come bundled with allMacs since OS X (the current Mac operatingsystem) was introduced in 2001. In newerversions of OS X such as the one used here(Mac OS X 10.6.7) you can simply attach ascanner to any USB port and Preview willwork as the scanner controller without havingto install any extra software and/or drivers.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/59087668/Response-to-Zebest

    You can download the PDF for yourself, and check the document properties. You will see that the following is given: “Mac OS X 10.6.7 Quartz PDFContext”

    Both the very sparse certified copy with the square border and the original certified copy on green paper were created with that PDF driver. In short, they were NOT “Photoshopped”.

    If they were, the PDF creator ID would be Adobe Distiller or Adobe Acrobat.

    Dumbfuck.

  • http://twitter.com/FearlessSon FearlessSon

    You can download the PDF for yourself, and check the document properties. You will see that the following is given: “Mac OS X 10.6.7 Quartz PDFContext”

    Both the very sparse certified copy with the square border and the original certified copy on green paper were created with that PDF driver. In short, they were NOT “Photoshopped”.

    If they were, the PDF creator ID would be Adobe Distiller or Adobe Acrobat.

    Dumbfuck.

    Ummm, ummm, ummm… teh haxors!  [/mock]

  • http://www.facebook.com/jon.maki Jon Maki

    Well, to be fair*, it would be possible to create/alter the birth certificate in Photoshop, print it, then scan the printed copy to PDF.

    (When submitting expense reports at work, I have to print out a copy of the digital file, get it signed by my manager, then scan it and submit the scanned version via e-mail, so it’s not entirely outside the realm of possibility.  Which isn’t to suggest that I think there is any validity whatsoever to the nonsensical claims of the Birthers, it’s just that this particular claim isn’t completely ruled out.)

    *Then again, fuck fairness, because Birthers are morons.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Given that it was made using an apparently very basic Mac program, I’m going to go with the “inexperienced person scanning a document using one of those ‘one-touch does it all’ jobs”, and the omglayering people are wittering on about is unimportant in the extreme.

  • http://www.facebook.com/richard.hansen.1675 Richard Hansen

    Well, the document at http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2011/04/27/president-obamas-long-form-birth-certificate is actually the one I question as a red herring. 

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Okay, you know how Americans get a reputation for talking really loudly and slowly because they think it means the other person will magically comprehend what they’re saying? I’m going to do that now because you’re an arselump.

    FIRST! *holds up index finger*

    I… linked… to… the… exact… same… site.

    SECOND! *holds up two fingers*

    I.. discussed… both… of… the… birth… certificates… on… that… site. You… are… not… apparently… even… aware… of… that… fact.

    THIRD! *holds up  three fingers*

    Fuck. Off.

    *waves hand dismissively.*

  • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

    Okay, you know how Americans get a reputation for talking really loudly and slowly because they think it means the other person will magically comprehend what they’re saying?

    This is one of those things I find fascinating from an historical standpoint. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, it was English people who had that stereotype. The “ugly American tourist” was an “ugly English tourist” first. I predict that in about 50-100 years, that will change again, to whoever the current superpower is. (I’d guess it will be “ugly Chinese tourist”, but who knows.)

  • http://jamoche.dreamwidth.org/ Jamoche

    Why, I do believe my birth certificate was printed with the very same typewriter. Or at least one using the exact same font. But then, mine is Hawaiian from 1965…

  • Turcano

     You can’t fool me, Kenyan usurper commenter!  Also, “Jamoche” sounds like “Jamaica.”  QED.

  • Ouri Maler

    Honestly, there’s no reason for Huckabee’s lines NOT to work. People who want to believe them, will. They won’t look for evidence to the contrary. When forced to confront such evidence, they might stop saying this specific lie (maybe), but they’ll keep the core “Obama is a godless villain” message. MOST people in the world are “Bad Jackie”.

  • http://mordicai.livejournal.com Mordicai

    For that matter, yeah, omit that religious rhetoric from our politics, please.  Rights DO come from the government, not from a god…which is why I get a little touchy when the right wing tries to strip rights from people in the name of their god.

  • Carstonio

    OT: Apparently an attempt at the Democratic convention to include the name “God” in the platform met with boos (along with a position recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel). Although I agree with the booers who see these as pandering to a segment of Christian voters, I’m frustrated that they didn’t recognize how their behavior would be spun by the theocrats. 

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

    While I understand the frustration, and I’d in general prefer bad ideas be voted down rather than shouted down, I’m not convinced the thing you want to avoid can be avoided by avoiding the behavior that nominally causes it.  That is, I’m not convinced that the world WITH that event causes the theocrats to spin their worldview any more effectively than the world WITHOUT that event.

    I also suspect that the habit of self-censoring out of concern for what the enemy might do if we behave a certain way (as opposed to more general concerns for polite behavior) does more harm than the enemy themselves can cause, in this case.

    This reminds me of the endless handwringing in the 80s and 90s over the “flamboyant” queer people and how “alienating” they were and how they just played into the hands of the anti-queer people who want to portray all queers as weird.

    And,I mean, in some sense it was true… the anti-queer folks did go into a frenzy of pearl-clutching over that flamboyance. They still do, every Pride parade. But y’know? Looking back over the last fifty years, I see no reason to think that the end result would have been better had all of those flamboyant queers protested in three-piece-suits, let alone if they’d stayed home.

    Sometimes the benefits of being visible exceed the benefits of being polite.

  • Carstonio

    That is, I’m not convinced that the world WITH that event causes the theocrats to spin their worldview any more effectively than the world WITHOUT that event.

    My concern is that many modern Christians might be swayed by the booing into siding with the theocrats. They might come to believe the theocrats’ lie that secularism equals hostility to religion. Part of the problem is that the convention format doesn’t allow for the kind of nuance we need, and the principle of neutrality among religions requires nuance to explain effectively.

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

    many modern Christians might be swayed by the booing into siding with the theocrats

    I understand. And I sympathize with your concern.

    But if the DNC were to politely refuse to include explicitly theistic language in their secular party platform, I expect that the story on Drudge would be that Democrats reject God, and the exact same pearl-clutching would commence, and we’d still be having a conversation about how concerned we were that such a refusal would alienate modern Christians.

    Instead the DNC included the language, over loud objections from an aggrieved minority, so now we’re concerned that they’re not acceding to the preferences of those modern Christians politely enough.

    And, sure, maybe if the DNC had included the language politely, that would be enough to change the story. OTOH, maybe the Drudge headline would be “Republicans shame Democrats into accepting God!” and we’d be concerned that Democrats are perceived as playing “catch-up” on this issue, and how they should make more of an effort to proactively include God in their nominally secular party platform. And would it hurt to maybe mention Jesus a few times while we’re at it, just as a nod to the modern Christians we might attract that way? And so on.

    So, I dunno. As I say, I do sympathize with the concern. But I also sympathize with the value of saying “No. Our party platform is a secular document, and religious language in it is inappropriate.”

    But, sure, all things being equal I would prefer that get expressed more  politely than public booing. Not because I think the more polite expression would prevent those modern Christians we’re concerned about from being swayed into voting against us… I mostly don’t… but just because I prefer polite discourse.

    You would have a point if the flamboyant gays were explicitly
    advocating [..] trying to destroy heterosexuality and recruit kids into
    homosexuality.

    That’s true, I would.

    As it happens, I think I also have a point if the flamboyant gays were instead advocating a public discourse in which statements of public policy don’t include references to “one-man-one-woman marriage” or “traditional families” or other implicit endorsements of the privileged status of heterosexuality.

    Which many of them were, and are.
     

    That’s why I grow frustrated with anti-theists, because
    they wrongly claim that the problem is religion and not absolutism or
    intolerance, even when I agree with them about First Amendment
    principles and the danger of theocracy.

    (nods) I can understand that frustration.

    For my own part, I often grow frustrated with theists who treat their formulation of Deity as so privileged that references to it belong everywhere, even in secular political documents, the Pledge of Allegiance, etc.

  • Carstonio

    loud objections from an aggrieved minority, so now we’re concerned that they’re not acceding to the preferences of those modern Christians politely enough.

    My point has nothing to do with politeness. Even people who aren’t religious rightists might reasonably conclude from the aggrieved minority’s behavior that a good portion of the party was booing “God”. Elsewhere I’ve had very frustrating debates with people who insist that removing the sectarian religious reference from the Pledge is “against God,” as if a neutral position among competing religions wasn’t possible. This issue isn’t about religion or theism against atheism, but it’s about preventing government from favoring any particular position on religion. The booers in Charlotte gave the impression that they were attacking not sectarianism but religion in general.

    To put it more simply, the sectarians prefer that everyone subscribe to their religion. The anti-theists prefer that everyone reject religion. Most theists and atheists see this as about individual choice, with government neutrality on religion.

  • http://dpolicar.livejournal.com/ Dave

     Perhaps I’m misunderstanding you, then.

    If instead of booing, the DNC delegates had simply refused to allow language about God into the party platform, on the grounds that it was a secular document and language about God didn’t belong there, would you consider that better, worse, or equivalent to what actually happened in terms of how it communicated the impression that the DNC attacks religion in general?

  • Carstonio

     The booing was worse only in terms of providing a damning audiovisual that Fox News could show over and over.

  • Carstonio

    Also, while you’re right to condemn the hand-wringing over campiness, that’s not a fair comparison to what happened at the Democratic convention.

    You would have a point if the flamboyant gays were explicitly advocating the things that the James Dobsons and Tony Perkinses accuse them of, trying to destroy heterosexuality and recruit kids into homosexuality. That’s why I grow frustrated with anti-theists, because they wrongly claim that the problem is religion and not absolutism or intolerance, even when I agree with them about First Amendment principles and the danger of theocracy.

  • JayKay4

    Wow, this looks like a bad infestation of loony, left-wing, cool aid drinkers complete with the obligatory lies and profanity. 

    I believe Obama recently attempted to remove God from the Democrat platform.  Also, he did recently quote from the U.S. Constitution leaving out the words “endowed by our Creator”. 

    Is there any wonder that many people including Huckaby might question his committment to a belief in God? 

    The nondiscript author of this hit-piece should be proud to have the honesty and integrity of Mike Huckaby, but he, obviously, doesn’t have those attributes.

  • AnonymousSam

     

    I am a Christian, and I am a devout Christian. I believe in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe that that faith gives me a path to be cleansed of sin and have eternal life.  … I came to my Christian faith later in life, and it was because the precepts of Jesus Christ spoke to me in terms of the kind of life that I would want to lead—being my brothers’ and sisters’ keeper, treating others as they would treat me.

    Boy, Obama sure does mince words! I can totally see why you’d be skeptical, what with him avoiding reference of the lord and creator that 100% of the entire Earth worships without any possible exceptions. It’s not like he has to represent people of diverse religious and multicultural backgrounds or anything.

  • EllieMurasaki

    It never occurred to you that Obama and the Democratic platform authorial committee might have been attempting to express their commitment to non-Christian voters? We do exist, you know. This particular non-Christian voter is furious with them for voting God back into the platform.

  • Carstonio

    And if that were the case, it wouldn’t even be about Christian voters versus non-Christian voters. “God” with a capital G is a sectarian reference to a particular type of religious belief. There are many voters whose religious beliefs don’t include a single god, such as Hindus and Buddhists and Shintos and animists. The vast majority of Americans, upon hearing someone declare a belief in “God,” would assume the person to be a Christian. So any reference to “God” in a party platform would endorse monotheism in principle and Christianity in practice. There are plenty of religious people, Christians included, who rightly object to this type of sectarianism as against the First Amendment.

  • Lunch Meat

    This Christian is upset too. And from what I understand, the booing happened because they took the voice vote to put the language back in three times, and each time the Nos clearly outweighed the Yeses, but the chair said that the Yeses won anyway. Horrible, silencing procedure.

    People on facebook are complaining that it’s evidence of “how far our country has fallen” and “how the DNC are acting like demons” and “mentioning the word ‘God’ isn’t forcing your beliefs on anyone.” Number 1, if I’ve elected someone to speak for me, and in that position they attempt to summarize the common beliefs of their electorate (which is what a platform is) and they include beliefs I don’t hold that they do, that is almost by definition “forcing their beliefs on me.” Number 2, imagine the uproar if a national party’s platformed just “mentioned” the word Allah (unless to equate that word with Satan). Everyone would be talking about Sharia law and Islamists coming to overthrow us. How is this any different because it says “God”?

  • Dan Audy

    That was my impression too.  I’m not actually convinced there were more Nos than Yeses (rather than just being louder) but it was certainly was not a clear 2/3rds majority in favour which is what was necessary to amend.  The booing only occured after they failed to get that majority for a 3rd time and declared that it passed with a 2/3 majority anyways.  

    It should have been rejected or postponed for a ballot vote at a later time.

  • PJ Evans

    From what I heard, the delegates were booing the guy at the podium for trying to force a majority. It gets him lots of points for being a beckwit. (Note: he’s my mayor, he’s about to be term-limited out, and I’m not going to vote to put him in any other job. Publicity hound, not all that good at his job.)

  • NoDoubtAboutIt

    I lick yer ids.  Want yr noozlitturs.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=659001961 Brad Ellison

    He sure can spell Mike Huckabee’s name like a champ, though.

  • Sgt. Pepper’s Bleeding Heart

    And Kool-Aid

  • Lunch Meat

    I believe Obama recently attempted to remove God from the Democrat
    platform.  Also, he did recently quote from the U.S. Constitution
    leaving out the words “endowed by our Creator”.

    It was the democratic delegates who removed it, and Obama personally intervened to have it put back in. Citation: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/06/dem-delegates-steam-over-move-to-restore-god-jerusalem-to-platform/

    Also, if you’re quoting from the Constitution including the words “endowed by our Creator,” you’re misquoting, because those words are nowhere in the Constitution.

  • Carstonio

     Even if Obama had been responsible for removing it, that in no way should call his faith in the Christian god into the question. More to the point, there would be nothing wrong with having a president who believes in a god other than the Christian one, or who doesn’t believe in any gods.

  • http://twitter.com/jclor jclor

    Let’s see … (gets out scorecard)

    1. Immediately poisons the well with insults?  Check.
    2. Reference to “Democrat” Party, as though this were some kind of insult?  Check.
    3. Misspelled name of well-known public figure despite typing comments into a Web browser—you know, where Google lives? Check.
    4. Made up “facts” issued without any citation? Check.
    5. Confuses U.S. Constitution and Declaration of Independence?  Bonus points!

    Overall, a great effort.  Points off for not including any CRAZY CAPS, though.  Please, do try to remember them in the future.

  • http://www.facebook.com/richard.hansen.1675 Richard Hansen

     That’s the vibe I’m getting from Patheos, too. It’s getting annoying hearing their generalizations and accusations of “racism”, but hey, I have nothing else to do.
    And also, these liberals claim I’m racist for questioning Obama for his birth certificate, but they don’t realize that I’d also jump in to question any presidential candidate with a name like Sergei Nihlov or any distinctly foreign name. They’re pretty desperate, and I don’t blame them… Ex-liberals like myself and others are waking up from their BS. (:

  • Lunch Meat

    they don’t realize that I’d also jump in to question any presidential
    candidate with a name like Sergei Nihlov or any distinctly foreign name.

    That’s…pretty much the definition of racism. “John Smith” is just as likely to be a foreign national as anyone, but you ignore him because his name sounds like yours.

  • AnonymousSam

    Tip of the iceberg, my sandwich-filling friend. Tip of the iceberg.

  • Lunch Meat

    Well, I was gone this past weekend, and never had time to catch up on comments.

  • AnonymousSam

    Here’s the bulk of it. Link should put you down at his first comment. “Enjoy.”

  • Lunch Meat

    I read the first page, and then glanced at the page count…nope. Not worth it. Thanks for the context though.

  • Fusina

     Wait, didn’t that spy they recently caught have the last name Hansen? I think we should investigate this guy… in case…

  • http://www.facebook.com/richard.hansen.1675 Richard Hansen

    Wrong. The definition of racism is hatred of someone based on the color of one’s skin. Buy a dictionary, Mr. Meat.

  • Lunch Meat

    1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among thevarious human races  determine cultural or individualachievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
    2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
    3. hatred or intolerance of another race  or other races.

    Hmm, I don’t see anything there referring to skin color. Besides, any sociologist can tell you that discrimination often occurs based on racial cues other than skin color, such as voice, diction, names, clothing…etc.

    Also, I’m a woman. Don’t assume everyone around you is male.

  • AnonymousSam

    Nah, it has something more to do with the fact that you think Hispanics are purposefully out-breeding whites so they can take over the United States and persecute the white minority, as well as your constant insistence that begetting biracial children should be avoided at all costs — something you want to enforce upon others even within your own community because you don’t feel you can trust even other “white separatists” to hold to their vows of chastity around the non-whites who would purposefully move into the neighborhood to seduce them.

    Don’t think your hypocrisy of wanting to control where people live and visit while refusing to leave a community where you are not wanted has gone unnoticed.

  • http://www.facebook.com/richard.hansen.1675 Richard Hansen

    For a “community where [I am] not wanted,” I sure garner a lot of attention from all of you. You must love trolls.

  • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

    you don’t feel you can trust even other “white separatists” to hold to their vows of chastity around the non-whites who would purposefully move into the neighborhood to seduce them

    Are we sure this isn’t a very elaborate Poe? Because… wow.

  • AnonymousSam

    All I can go by is what he’s given us, which is that he believes the races need to be separated and that people, even white separatists, apparently cannot be trusted to make decisions on their own about who they marry.

    Then again, he’s also argued that rape is an act of racial hostility designed to cause the target race to beget biracial offspring, thus diluting the purity of their race. So many, in a completely non-racist way, he’s arguing that he’s afraid a bunch of mean nasty non-white people will come rape his white women so they give birth to bi-racial kids and destroy the purity of his race.

  • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

    So he just ignores the fact that the vast majority of rapists are the same skin color as their victims? 

  • Carstonio

     Public service ad: An old white man sits alone in a apartment with vaguely futuristic furnishings. He channel-surfs on a bank of TV screens, all showing telecasts of people in various non-white shades of skin. One shows a press conference with a female president of Chinese ancestry. He sighs and turns off the screens, and looks around his room. The walls are decorated with faded posters of country music performers, NASCAR racers, and pro wrestling stars. The shelves are lined with old cassette tapes of Lawrence Welk and Ray Conniff. He reaches toward a shelf and pulls out an old yellowed copy of “Dick and Jane.” Turning through the book, his thumb gently caresses the images of the lily-white children, as tears run down his face. Fade out over the caption “Save the Whites.”

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

     Want your mind blown? That commercial? That commercial more or less exists. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTSQozWP-rM

  • Vermic

    I think what blows my mind most about that commercial is, how did they even find that many Asian actors willing to be in it?

  • Lori

    That commercial was no doubt filmed here in the US. Do you know how many out of work Asian actors there are in the US? A lot. One of them was bound to agree to it for the paycheck and the credit, and they only needed one to agree. The only actor in the commercial is the guy playing the professor. The rest are extras and it’s quite possible they had no clue what they were filming.

    They don’t have any lines, so extras don’t typically see a script, or even a detailed description of the scene. A call goes out for extras for a crowd scene, with verbiage that gets across the idea that they need to be Chinese or at least look plausible as Chinese*. The folks filming the commercial get the extras together and the actor isn’t even there. They just film a bunch of reaction shots  and call it a day. The actor does his part separately and then it gets edited together. Unless they saw the finished ad on TV it’s possible the extras never knew what they worked on.

     
    *There are rules about how you can and can’t describe a role, even when a particular ethinicity is actually needed. I no longer remember enough about them to comment beyond saying that you usually can’t say flat out “must be X ethnicity”.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    You know, done differently, that ad could have been a lot more plausible. One common feature of empires in decline is their overextended militaries, and their governments choosing to reallocate resources to their wealthy, and their generals and admirals.

    The British Empire is the only real exception in that the dissolution happened during an era when the government of the day consciously was egalitarian in intent, and expanding its welfare state, as well as being willing to grant independence with little hemming and hawing (except for Rhodesia).

  • Joshua


    these liberals claim I’m racist for questioning Obama for his birth certificate, but they don’t realize that I’d also jump in to question any presidential candidate with a name like Sergei Nihlov or any distinctly foreign name. 

    Yes, that is what the word means.

    Ex-liberals like myself

     See, folks? This is what happens when you drink too much paint thinner.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Charity-Brighton/100002974813787 Charity Brighton

     

    Yes, that is what the word means.

    I really like that argument though. “Liberals think I’m racist because I mistrust blacks, but what they don’t realize is that I also mistrust Slavs and indeed anyone with a foreign-sounding name.”

    Seriously, what? That has to be a parody of something. No one’s that stupid.

  • PJ Evans

     I don’t know if he’s that stupid the rest of the time, but he is when he’s here.

  • Tricksterson

    So young.  So innocent.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Patrick-McGraw/100001988854074 Patrick McGraw

     Also, what constitutes a “foreign-sounding” name? Anything that isn’t an anglophone name? Do Germanic names get a pass if they’ve been anglicized (e.g., Braun to Brown)?

  • http://www.facebook.com/richard.hansen.1675 Richard Hansen

    Or go to China and realize that socialism doesn’t work. 

  • Joshua

    At least he didn’t use Nazi Germany as his go-to example on the evils of socialism.

    Hey, Dick, better have another bottle, you said something that kinda made sense, a bit.

  • EllieMurasaki

    And also, these liberals claim I’m racist for questioning Obama for his birth certificate, but they don’t realize that I’d also jump in to question any presidential candidate with a name like Sergei Nihlov or any distinctly foreign name.
     
    Oh, so you’re nativist and nationalist as well as racist. Got it.
     
    And since you didn’t seem to hear me the first time, white boy: you and I are the foreigners here, as I’m absolutely confident you’ve no more Native American ancestry than I.

  • http://www.facebook.com/richard.hansen.1675 Richard Hansen

     We are foreigners on North American land but not United States land. There’s a difference between union and land.

  • EllieMurasaki

    That sounds like English, which I’m fairly certain I speak fluently, but it makes not a bit of sense.

  • http://www.facebook.com/richard.hansen.1675 Richard Hansen

     If I live in Arkansas, then I live on Indian territory traditionally. We ought to respect their customs and way of life, but ultimately, we live in a WASP-controlled government of the U.S. which is beholden to each person living outside the reservations. Does it make any more sense now?

  • EllieMurasaki

    If I live in Arkansas, then I live on Indian territory traditionally. We ought to respect their customs and way of life, but ultimately, we live in a WASP-controlled government of the U.S. which is beholden to each person living outside the reservations. Does it make any more sense now?
     
    This land belongs to the Abnaki. This land belongs to the Pennacook, the Pocumtuk, the Nipmuc. Wampanoag, Massachuset, Nauset. Mahican, Wappinger, Montauk. The Iroquois Confederacy. The Delaware, the Susquehanna. I am bored of listing names and I have not even mentioned anything that’s on this map as a minor tribe or that isn’t in the US Northeast. No, your statement does not make a bit of sense.

  • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

    And also, these liberals claim I’m racist for questioning Obama for his birth certificate, but they don’t realize that I’d also jump in to question any presidential candidate with a name like Sergei Nihlov or any distinctly foreign name.

    So you’re even more willfully stupid than I had previously thought, and oh my that’s stupid. Good to know.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Mike Huckabee is a complete douchebag. (Content warning: Trivialization of rape)

  • AnonymousSam

    I’m not sure what to think of that. Yes, it’s appalling, but it’s also deeply confusing. Huckabee was one of the people who came to Akin’s defense for the “forcible rape” idiocy, and yet here he is, simultaneously affirming the idea by reiterating “forcible rape” while contradicting the “but she can’t get pregnant from it” side of things.

    And what’s his bloody point? That women shouldn’t be in a rush to get an abortion after being raped because it might turn out they like their baby anyway? That’s their decision, you disgusting shitbag (Huckabee, not you, Neutrino!).

    It reminds me quite a bit of Rick Santorum’s “rape is God’s way of giving you a baby you didn’t know you wanted” filth.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_2RAPF5V3YPOUWAZGAJ2VCQM76Q Alicia

    That’s just the thing. I think that most of these guys don’t really believe that it’s impossible to get pregnant from rape. They’re only defending the overall position because they are anti-abortion absolutists. It’s the equivalent of saying that you don’t agree with a clinic bomber’s actions, but you do understand where he’s coming from. I don’t think that most of these guys wanted Akin to come out and say what he did, but they’re mostly only upset because the rape comment aspect of it might make them look bad, not because they actually disagree with *everything* he said.

  • AnonymousSam

    Mmm, I dunno, the bill which almost created a legal precedent to make distinctions between types of rape did get a lot of yes-votes…

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_2RAPF5V3YPOUWAZGAJ2VCQM76Q Alicia

    Maybe so, but I really think that the issue is about abortion. The rape thing is a smokescreen; if they thought they could get away with it, they would probably support a bill that had no distinctions on rape and banned abortion in every case, regardless of “forcible” or “not forcible”. 

  • AnonymousSam

    That strikes me as paying lip service to the wackos in their own party while still trying to build common ground with them. Sad.

  • Carstonio

     I object to rape exceptions because they amount to punishing women for wanting to have sex without becoming mothers. It’s apparently OK to force women to carry a pregnancy to term if she originally consented to the sex. My position is that such forcing is not OK under any circumstances.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Patrick-McGraw/100001988854074 Patrick McGraw

     

    I object to rape exceptions because they amount to punishing women for
    wanting to have sex without becoming mothers. It’s apparently OK to
    force women to carry a pregnancy to term if she originally consented to
    the sex. My position is that such forcing is not OK under any
    circumstances.

    Exactly. The rape exception makes the misogyny behind the forced-birth movement plain. It isn’t about Saving Teh Baybeez, it’s about controlling women’s behavior.

  • Lori

    Poe, troll or actual white supremacist is a much less fun game that fuck, chuck or marry.

  • Madhabmatics

    Pretending to be a white supremacist is functionally the same as actually being one and practicing white supremacy, so I deny that the line between “troll” and “actual racist” exists.

  • christopher_young

    What kind of a name is Huckabee, anyway? Sounds like a small, furry creature from Alpha Centauri to me…

    To this European, the thing about American names is that any damn name sounds American: Theodore Roosevelt, Dwight Eisenhower, Angela Merkel, Felipe Calderon, Pranab Mukherjee, Hu Jintao, they could all be solid third generation Americans, and nobody would bat an eyelid.

  • Carstonio

     As much as I detest the politics of both Huckabee and Romney, I disapprove of making fun of their names. I’ve heard the latter ridiculed for not using his first name of Willard. I know several Catholic families who use saints’ names for their children’s first names and have the middle names as the given names. Granted, this isn’t as bad as the xenophobia involved in the mock outrage over Obama’s middle name, as if he was kin to Iraq’s former dictator, but it’s still childish and inappropriate.

  • http://lliira.dreamwidth.org/ Lliira

    As someone whose last name has been made fun of my whole life, I am completely on board with making fun of how silly anyone’s last name sounds, particularly if it’s a western/northern European name like mine and therefore the making-fun isn’t likely to be racist. I am mean that way. 

  • Tricksterson

    T me it alwaays reminds me of a movie of which I’m sure the former governor would not aprove I Heart Huckabee’s

  • Fusina

    Heh. “How to Be a Woman” by Caitlyn Moran. Should be required reading. She talks about her abortion in the book. I personally think it was very enlightening regarding such. Actually, the whole book was awesome. She also discusses rape, feminism, underpants, and other stuff. Just finished yesterday, still have to digest stuff, but initially, I found it a relief, in the letting go of baggage sort of way, but humorously. It was very therapeutic for me.

  • Vermic

    And also, these liberals claim I’m racist for questioning Obama for his birth certificate, but they don’t realize that I’d also jump in to question any presidential candidate with a name like Sergei Nihlov or any distinctly foreign name.

    Then, I guess, congratulations for being an even worse person than we realized … ?  Not sure what you were going for here.

  • Carstonio

    Scripted by someone who obviously doesn’t understand that government debt is not the same as household debt…

    I picked “Chinese ancestry” at random – the future president could just as well have  had ancestry in India or Bolivia. I was mocking not only the suggestion of a no-whites dystopia but also the assertion that such a future must be avoided at all costs.