7 things for a Saturday (9.7)

1. Azie Mira Dungey used to have a strange commute, traveling back to the 18th Century every day to work as a “living history” character at Mount Vernon. She’s mined that experience to create a pointedly hilarious comedy Web series: “Ask a Slave.”

2. The NALT Christians Project now has more than 50 videos posted, including, to my delight, this one from the Rev. Susan Russell, who I hope you know from her insightful, inspiring blog, An Inch at a Time.

He’s baaa-ack.

3. Hemant Mehta and Steve Benen provide some helpful background on the Massachusetts case involving the Pledge of Allegiance. This is a First Amendment issue regarding the words “under God” in the revised pledge. I’m a Baptist, so yes, I’m opposed to state-mandated religion and think the folks bringing this case have a correct argument — whether or not the courts agree. (The courts may make Christianists happy by finding that God-talk is a vague and meaningless expression of civil religion and that concerns about the establishment of religion don’t apply to something as impotent and inconsequential as the Americanized God of Christian America. Yay!)

None of this directly involves my main reason for hating the Pledge of Allegiance: It’s the creepiest creepy thing from Creepy Town. Don’t get me wrong, I love the sentiments the Pledge expresses about “liberty and justice for all.” But those ideals are contradicted, emphatically, by the very act of requiring children to pledge allegiance. “Swear your loyalty to liberty, or else,” is not compatible with actual liberty, or justice.

Other countries don’t do this. They don’t make their children swear a daily loyalty oath. Because it’s creepy — creepy like Patrick Bergin in Sleeping With the Enemy creepy. Exactly like that. Reciting the Pledge isn’t patriotic, it’s a ritual in coercive conformity. Love and coercion can never exist in the same space.

4. A bill is moving along in California that would “allow — but not require — a local government to disapprove of the conversion of a mobile home park if a majority of park residents do not support it.” The word “conversion” there refers to the displacement of every manufactured-home owner in the park. Some of their homes may be relocated — at great expense to people who cannot afford such an expense. Others would be simply lost — leaving them without a home and without all the savings they’ve spent acquiring one.

This bill is a step in a positive direction, but an appallingly modest step. It shows that poor people don’t have rights. What they have, instead, is the potential possibility that maybe government might be allowed — but not required — to prevent them from being evicted from their own homes.

5. An evangelical Christian minister in West Virginia says his home security camera has captured an angel on video. This is, of course, ridiculous. This is West Virginia, and if you look at the video, you’ll see it’s clearly not an angel, but simply the Mothman, making the rounds, apparently, before the big festival later this month.

6. Here is one of the better responses to the awful responses to Miley at the VMAs, from the Queen of the Couch:

What I’m trying to say is that I don’t respect nor trust my sons, or men in general. For that matter, I don’t trust females either. I think that men are mindless slaves to their genitals, incapable of compassion, or reasoned decision-making. I think, and pass on to my sons, that if they falter, it is partly their fault, but mostly the fault of women (or a woman), guilty of infecting them with lust. I am teaching them to not trust their own instincts or emotions, in the way that I distrust them, because even if they think they’re thinking with their heart, they can rest assured that it is their penis, unless told otherwise. I want them to see women as objects, save their future wives, of whom I’ve set an almost impossible standard of beauty, piety, and influence over my sons’ happiness, satisfaction and overall quality of life that will only be achieved through a relationship with this one, special, specific person, that meets said criteria.

That’s via Amy Mitchell, who has collected several other sharp responses. Libby Anne also has a good round-up of these. And here’s one more from the Belle Jar.

7. Here’s a helpful video from the Urban Institute looking at the much-touted “47 percent pay no income tax” idea.

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  • Hexep

    Number 1: Amazing. I give Azie Mira Dungey 6/6.

  • We Must Dissent

    The web series is amazing. But since the questions come from her real experience, the stupid makes me want to weep.

  • auroramere

    Some of the questions in the first installment sounded like they might have come from confusion about who they were addressing, the character or the actor. Or am I reaching, here?

  • Kirala

    I certainly hope so. But if the actor is dedicated to their character – and living history demands that the actor stay in character through quite a range of possibilities – it’s impossible not to imagine the character’s reaction. I have a feeling the impact on the actor at the time is about the same as if the question were addressed to the character.

    Also, never underestimate human stupidity. It’s possible some people visiting those sites are simply that foolish.

  • auroramere

    I’m sure you’re right, especially about the effect on the actor. I loved the question about why she didn’t get on the Underground Railroad. (I bet Mr. Washington would have found it handy for moving troops and supplies, too. What could he have been thinking?)

  • The_L1985

    I can’t get my head around the idea of people who don’t know that the Underground Railroad, by that name, couldn’t possibly have existed during Washington’s presidency because trains didn’t exist yet.

  • Hexep

    I was so inspired by her work that I wrote her an actual piece of fan-mail, and asked her a similar question. (She hasn’t yet wrote back, but considering I subject’d the letter ‘Fan Mail’ I wouldn’t blame her if it went straight to the spam filter.)

    My guess is that she took her anecdotes from her job and got people she knew to read them out as though they were the original askers.

  • hidden_urchin

    On #6:

    Wow, the post all of those are responding to is super creepy. It’s one thing to look at pics on social media sites. It’s another entirely to a.) do it as a family and b.) look closely enough to note whether or not the girl in the photo appears to be wearing a bra. I don’t even want to know how that conversation went.

    Talk about focusing on the wrong things.

  • LoneWolf343

    That people are focusing on it at all is appalling. The only really notable thing about it is that Cyrus is trying really hard to be sexy and failing, and it certainly not something that warrants WEEKS of discussion.

  • hidden_urchin

    I was referring to “FYI (If You’re a Teenage Girl)” by Kimberly Hall but I agree with you on Cyrus as well.

  • Lori

    There was a lot of FAIL on that stage but yeah, the type and duration of the discussion about it has been beyond wrong-headed.

  • Victor

    (((The only really notable thing about it is that Cyrus is trying really hard to be sexy and failing,)))
    LoneWolf, maybe it is because I don’t watch enough of this stuff but from what I did see of this young Cyrus and as far as I’m concern, she appeared to be very sexy to me in an evil manner. I must also say that I feel sorry for her father and today’s society. After having tried to raise five daughters, the power that some will put on GOD’s young family children is not very funny and for what “IT” is worth, I’ve cried to GOD about it and I believe that HE will help in the long run.
    Longer story short and sadly, I know that there are some out there who will simply say, Here’s a quarter, call someone who cares.
    Peace

  • LoneWolf343

    …I’m not touching this one.

  • Victor

    (((SororAyin said
    Hey, Victor wrote a (mostly) coherent paragraph!)))

    LoneWolf343
    (((…I’m not touching this one.)))

    We gods don’t know if your alone, “I” mean a Lone but for what “IT” is worth, we gods think that you’re a smart Wolf and we gods would love to take YA on but as YA might know Victor would call out his Buy Polar Bears and we can’t have that, can we NOW?

    Truth is and long story short, Victor killed his mother after giving her “The Body of Christ” one day and he’s been cursed ever since he took his life in the early nineties and longer story short, he’s on his way to visit her grave so please forgive U>S (usual sinning) gods for not hanging around, if YA know what “I” mean and……….

    END YA SAY sinner vic? BE NICE NOW!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5gBxKEgZqM
    Go figure ladies and gentle men now! :)
    Peace

  • http://algol.wordpress.com/ SororAyin

    Hey, Victor wrote a (mostly) coherent paragraph!

  • Headless Unicorn Guy

    His ALL CAPS of anything related to God makes him sound (through his writing) like an in-your-face street preacher. (I’ve encountered the type way too often, the type who literally clings to you with a loud “IF YOU DIED TODAY, DO YOU KNOW WHERE YOU WOULD SPEND ETERNITY????????”)

  • Maniraptor

    The racialized element of that attempt to be sexy is worth weeks of discussion, but that part isn’t getting much play. http://tressiemc.com/2013/08/27/when-your-brown-body-is-a-white-wonderland/

  • LoneWolf343

    I call that “White people telling minorities what they ought to be offended about.”

  • LoneWolf343

    I consider that “White people telling minorities what they should be offended about.”

    (Apparent double post due to Disqus being weird.)

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    What I’m trying to say is that I don’t respect nor trust my sons, or men
    in general. For that matter, I don’t trust females either. I think that
    men are mindless slaves to their genitals, incapable of compassion, or
    reasoned decision-making. I think, and pass on to my sons, that if they
    falter, it is partly their fault, but mostly the fault of women (or a
    woman), guilty of infecting them with lust.

    I cannot possibly facepalm enough times to encompass the sheer astounding level of wrongness embodied in the above statement. (>_<)

  • Lori

    That was satire on the part of Queen of the Couch in response to the original post which meant that, but didn’t actually say it because Kimberly Hall has no self-awareness.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Fair point.

  • The_L1985

    I know! QotC is a mistress of satire. She totally hit the nail on the head with that response. :D

  • Queen of the Couch

    Thank you! Many people have taken this post, as well as past posts, literally. Which makes me gleam just a tiny bit. ;)

  • Headless Unicorn Guy

    “When you point at something with your finger, the dog sniffs your finger. To a dog, a finger is a finger and that is that.” — C.S.Lewis (from memory)

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    I don’t really give a damn what Miley Cyrus did or didn’t do. The only reason this is a shitstorm at all is some prudish moral warrior needed something to pearl-clutch about.

  • Fusina

    IMO, she succeeded in what her aim was…publicity. A guy I knew liked to say, “Any publicity is good publicity.” In that, Miley succeeded, quite well.

  • Headless Unicorn Guy

    According to local morning drive-time radio, she’s getting over twenty times the number of postings and views as the whole Syrian Civil War.
    1) CELEBRITY TALKS.
    2) “Piss Off Those Xians” is still a viable publicity stunt.

  • Fusina

    Precisely.

  • L E

    Yes, but without the OTT prudery, the big story about the VMAs would have been “Wow, Miley really can’t dance – what a mess” and that’s just boring.

  • Headless Unicorn Guy

    Unless you call Twerking dancing…

  • banancat

    Also, this entire thing is perpetuating the idea of women as gatekeepers. I have heard exactly no one criticize Robin Thicke for this, even though has proven himself to be a major creeper and he was as involved in this show as Cyrus. But he gets a number one song and Cyrus gets ridiculed. The message that is being sent is men objectifying women = profit; women “allowing” men to objectify them = shame.

  • auroramere

    How many other people are still angry about the unequal treatment of Justin Timberlake and Janet Jackson? Whatever they were trying to accomplish, he’s the one who stuck out his hand and ripped off a piece of her clothing, revealing her breast. She seemed to see that too much had been exposed and tried to cover herself again.

    She bore the brunt of the criticism and her career is still crippled by the incident. He wasn’t even slapped on the wrist. Moral: the person attached to the breast is always the one at fault.

  • Queen of the Couch

    Someone after my own heart. I blogged on Miley and the VMAs here: http://viewsfromthecouch.com/2013/09/03/the-twerk-heard-round-the-world/

  • Tapetum

    Not to mention, she is 20, which is an age prone to some stupid decisions, particularly when one has led a very controlled and sheltered adolescence. He’s way too old to not know better, yet somehow nobody seems to be mad at him.

  • Headless Unicorn Guy

    “MILEY, DON’T BE STUPID!”

  • ohiolibrarian

    I may be one of the few people on the planet (Caveat: who have access to such things) to have not seen this video. That said, I have seen twerking and it kind of reminds me of one of the Beach Blanket movies.

    Does anyone remember the one where there is a girl (Candy?) who shimmied to such effect that when she thrust out a hip all the boys stopped dead (sometimes in mid-air)?

    I wonder why that this is so much worse than the clearly sexual behavior then? Of course, people were similarly outraged by Elvis. Who was bringing music associated with African Americans into the mainstream.

    Hmmm…

  • Queen of the Couch

    You are thinking of Candy Johnson, and her role in the beach party movies.

  • smrnda

    On the 47% who ‘pay no federal income tax.’ Why should that particular tax be cited as the indicator of whether or not you’re paying your fair share? VAT (like sales tax) are regressive, which means that a poor person spends a higher % of their income on sales tax, and that flat fees take up a higher % of their income than they do for rich people, for whom sales tax or license fees are no real hardship.

    The other issue is that cost of living is regressive. If you make six figures, you *could* spend as little as say, 15% of your income on housing where I live (that’s a high estimate actually.) Someone living in poverty is stuck paying over 50% of their income on housing – rich people *can choose much cheaper alternatives to reduce the % of their income used for things like housing, food and can still be living in luxury compared to most* whereas poor people, already choosing the cheapest options, are stuck spending most of their income on necessities.

  • Fusina

    I think it is because by focusing on income tax, some people could get other people all fired up because there are people who don’t pay income tax of one kind. FICA, Sales, all kinds of other taxes are paid. But that doesn’t make a good sound bite. And it doesn’t allow the real takers to look down their noses at the real makers.

  • chgo_liz

    I especially liked the statement that for a large percentage of the population, payroll taxes are higher than federal income taxes anyway….and no one (in a paid job) gets out of payroll taxes.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Why should that particular tax be cited as the indicator of whether or not you’re paying your fair share?

    The reason is obvious if you understand that the sort of people who say that sort of thing are playing Jeopardy!; They’re given that the answer is “It’s the reason why the poor do not deserve to have a government that works to their advantage”, and they’re supplying the question “What is ‘47% don’t pay income tax'”

  • Loki1001

    I actually once got into a discussion with someone where, when I pointed out that the bottom 90% of Americans have no actual way to influence government* said that was as it should be, that the wealthy should be in charge of the government and it should work for them because they are “successful”.

    *You can say “voting” but we all know that’s false. You merely have to look at how the supposedly socialist Obamacare is really just the Heritage Foundation’s own healthcare reform proposal to see how little voting matters once politicians are elected. When it comes to actual policy in America, it is entirely the wealthy and corporations who are in control.

  • Rhubarbarian82

    My grandfather once said (in one of his many, long rants during car rides that I couldn’t escape from) that only people who own property should be able to vote. Because renters, college students, and anyone else who isn’t wealthy enough to own property clearly just don’t have any stake in government, the same way people now say that the 47% don’t.

    I am honestly unsure whether or not he knew that the franchise was originally restricted to white male property owners in this country, and that we expanded it for good reasons. He was willfully ignorant about a lot of things.

  • Loki1001

    It’s pretty amazing how quickly we are back sliding into neo-feudalism.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Yeah, but in proper feudalism fiefs actually had an incentive to keep their serfs alive and productive. A fief who went around actually working his serfs to death was committing a crime against whatever lord he was sovereign to as well.

  • Loki1001

    What amazes me is how so many people (in particular so many Americans) really want to go back to some sort of quasi-feudal state. Of course most of those people are delusional enough to believe that they’d be the lords and not the serfs.

  • Amaryllis

    Then there are those who would apparently be content to be the lords in their own domain, with male “heads of families” the only people who really count.

    Another Quiverfull quote from Kathryn Joyce, herself quoting film-maker and Vision Forum affiliate Colin Gunn:

    “America is now indicted under this verse, Isaiah 3:12. ‘Children are their oppressors and women rule over them.’ .. The men of the suffrage era were willing to abandon their dominion role in that they were willing to give up their electoral powers to women. The Nineteenth Amendment can be seen as the point in American history when the fathers ceased to sit in the gates as representatives of their families’ interest. Individualism and self-interest would now be the approach to the ballot box.”

    Interestingly, the Vision Forum site used to have a page elaborating on this point of view, but it seems to have been pulled recently. Maybe this is too regressive even for them– or maybe it was giving them too much negative publicity, being too regressive even for other conservatives and complementarians. They might not mind being called sexist, but, as we all know, it’s worse to be called a racist than to be one, and some of Vision Forum’s views about suffrage, and equal rights in general, were tied up with the kind of ultra-conservatism which views equality, not just of genders but of races, as impossible. And since equality is impossible, attempting to destroy the “natural” order of hierarchy is a futile and dangerous effort.

    It’s also interesting that these “Christian patriarchs” claim to be inspired from the American “Founding Fathers,” who, after all, rebelled against their King, the natural authority of their day. And true to the patriarchs’ Calvinistic heritage, they have a horror of “Popery.” Yet they seem to want each man to be both King and Pope in his own home. I guess that’s the point, though: religious and political liberty only for heads of household, who get to decide religiously and politically for everyone else.

    ETA: and I suppose that’s the appeal for people who, like the rest of us, doubt their ability to influence the government or much of anything else. For the men: “I may not be able to control what goes on in the world, but by God I can control what goes on in my own house!”

    Not that that’s ever really true.

    For the women: “I many not be able to control what goes on in the world, or even in my own house, but I’m not supposed to, so nothing that’s wrong is my fault!”

    That doesn’t work out too well, either.

    Note: the Guns’ anti-feminism film is called The Monstrous Regiment of Women, because of course it is. John Knox has a lot to answer for with that line.

  • Albanaeon

    I’m sure individualism and self-interest *never* entered into the ballot box before the nineteenth amendment…

    I might have sprained something with that eyeroll.

  • Susan Paxton

    That’s indeed part of the problem. Polls continue to show that most Americans believe they will eventually be rich, and I suspect that has a lot to do with the number of people who lack two nickels to rub together who are apparently willing to die for the Koch brothers.

  • guest

    There was also something else going on that I don’t think we can really fully appreciate nowadays. A few years ago I attended a staged reading of excerpts from the Paston letters:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paston_Letters

    and one passage (which I’ve tried searching for in the texts but unsuccessfully so far) really struck me. A retainer of the family was writing to the head of the family on some matter, and said something like ‘don’t do something that will make it difficult for me to pray for you.’ If you honestly believed in Heaven, Hell, and the value of prayer, you’d be very, very cautious about overstepping the bounds of appropriate treatment toward your inferiors–they may not be able to retaliate in this life, but their prayers (or curses) existentially matter to your salvation, and God will judge you as you judge others. Also Galatians 3:28/Colossians 3:11.

  • Headless Unicorn Guy

    Yeah, but in proper feudalism fiefs actually had an incentive to keep their serfs alive and productive.
    Not so much in Russia.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    It took me until quite a long way into adulthood to realize that the idea of “All people are full people; there aren’t different levels of person-ness where some kinds of people only count as semi-human” is actually an incredibly modern and revolutionary idea. Even the folks who wrote “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,” actually meant “All people are created to fall into one of several categories of varying levels of human-ness,” (And indeed, history is chock full of people reaching the conclusion “Hey, all of humanity is and of right ought to be counted as full and coequal,” and actually meaning “I’ve come up with a new and better hierarchy to organize people into. All people at any station in this hierarchy are full and coequal to everyone else at the same station”).

  • http://algol.wordpress.com/ SororAyin

    In order to be your grandfather, he would have to be old enough to remember a time when our nation’s young men could be conscripted into military service. Yet he says that poor people have no real stake in government? Yikes.

  • dpolicar

    Hm.
    On your view, if someone rewrote U.S. law tomorrow so that the “bottom” 90% of Americans no longer were permitted to vote, would anything important have changed?

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    “Important” or “Practical”?

  • dpolicar

    Either… if Loki1001’s answers to those questions are different, I’m interested in both.

  • Jurgan

    Yes, I’ve always thought the Pledge was pretty creepy, and it’s even more so when you see the original salute that was used: http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/bellamy-salute.jpg

  • LoneWolf343

    To be fair, that was before Nazism, so it didn’t look so bad then.

  • Jurgan

    I know, but I’m actually not sure if that makes it better. So the creator of the pledge just happened to pick a salute almost identical to the one the Nazis later used? To me, that suggests that they may have had similar views on the role of the state in indoctrinating its citizens.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    You’re sort of edging up to Hitler Ate Sugar territory though. They’re both based on a roman salute, and, when you get right down to it, the core of the Bellamy salute is just “When you get to the word ‘flag’, you point at the thing you’re talking about

  • Jurgan

    Yeah, that’s a fair point.

  • LoneWolf343

    You’re really underestimating the psychological and cultural damage the Holocaust inflicted. It’s similar to how we can’t see a falling building in the same way again after 9/11.

  • J_Enigma32

    If my history serves correct, that was actually a Roman salute or Francis Bellamy, the socialist who wrote the Pledge, derived it from one.

    Edit: Or what Ross said.

  • caryjamesbond

    The Bellamy salute came well before the Nazi salute. The Nazi Salute was a modification of the (probably apocryphal) Roman Salute, which was adopted by Italian Facists in the 1920’s.

    Bellamy’s salute actually has no relationship to the supposed Roman salute. it’s just a case of there only being so many salute-type gestures you can make. (seriously, try coming up with something that isn’t either the hand-to-head or Roman salute that doesn’t look completely retarded.)

    Also see- Swastika. The incredible impact of the Nazi’s on imagery cannot be overstated-Seriously, good luck getting away with a red, white, and black motif, let alone a red flad with a white circle. Hell, good luck shouting in German. You could be ranting about raising tariffs, but anyone who doesn’t speak German will immediately start reinforcing the Maginot Line.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Also, the Bellamy Salute is one of the ways you can hail a cab.

  • AnonaMiss

    Or describe Kyle while you’re looking for him.

    (He’s about this tall. Have you seen Kyle?)

  • caryjamesbond

    If, however, you’re looking for your friend Kyle, DO NOT try and indicate his height.

    http://p.bfram.es/has-anyone-seen-kyle-he-s-about-this-tall-seen-kyle.jpg

  • Headless Unicorn Guy

    And one of the problems is that Naziism hypersensitized us to anything GERMAN, not necessarily National Socialist. (For instance, the red/white/black motif was originally Imperial German, from German unification in the 1870s.) As long as you don’t hoist the hook-cross or salute from the shoulder or wear a brown shirt or black tunic, your attitudes and ideology can be as “Nazi” as you want, just don’t push the specific buttons.
    “You’ll always have Nazis among you;
    Next time they won’t wear brown shirts or boots,
    They’ll come speaking softly in three-piece suits;
    But you’ll always have Nazis among you…”
    — Donna Barr, “Desert Peach: The Musical”

  • ohiolibrarian

    To also be fair, that is not really a Nazi salute (palm sideways not forward). They look more like someone showcasing a car on the Price is Right.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    It used to be called the “Bellamy salute” so it’s a case of Looks Harsher In Hindsight.

  • ohiolibrarian

    Disagree about the Pledge. I grew up in a suburb of lots of 1st and 2nd generation immigrants. Sometimes the reason they were there was because they were fleeing conflicts with other ethnic groups. People from those ethnic groups might now be their American neighbors.

    Can you imagine how disastrous it might be if people wanted to continue a quarrel that perhaps had long roots in the ‘old country’? The Pledge reminded their children at least that coming to a new country was a new start and that we were all Americans now.

  • The_L1985

    Yes, but the other reason was that, at that point in time, the main purpose of public schools was still to force everyone to fall in line with WASP culture. A loyalty pledge would have worked very well for that.

  • ohiolibrarian

    Yes, well at the time WASP culture and American culture were pretty congruent.

    And that wasn’t the “main purpose” of public schools at any time.

  • The_L1985

    Actually, prior to 1840 or so, there were NO public schools in the United States. Before that time, there were private academies and tutors for the rich kids, and everybody else learned to read and write from the family Bible. Anyone from a non-wealthy background who knew anything beyond the three R’s was probably entirely self-taught.

    Nobody felt a need for public education until a lot of Catholic immigrants from Ireland and Germany started showing up in the 1830s and ’40s. Anti-Catholic bigotry was very strong at the time, and there was a great fear that immigrant children would develop “anti-American” Catholic mindsets and vote “traditional American values” and the Protestant work ethic out of existence. The first public schools weren’t created for the WASPs who were already here, but for the immigrants with their scary, scary Catholic ways and their non-WASP cultures. The fact that “native” white children were being educated there as well was seen as a perk, but for several decades they were not the main focus of public schools.

    So yes, one of the main drives behind the very existence of public schools was to Protestantize and Anglicize immigrant children. This remained a major purpose of public schools for decades; McGuffy’s Readers were used well into the 20th century, and if you read through any one of them, the indoctrination of “This is the American way and the only right way” is painfully clear. This webpage has sample pages, and the Gutenberg Project has the full text of readers 1-6.

    This religious aspect of the public schools wasn’t dropped until the 1950’s and 60’s, when lawsuits led to the famous Supreme Court decision that ruled it unconstitutional to have teacher-led prayers or other mandatory religious activities in public schools.

  • Monala

    “April 23, 1635: Boston Latin School is founded – the oldest public school in America still in operation. It opened 148 years before the Academy of Richmond County, the next oldest. It was founded to educate the sons of the Boston Brahmins – the elite society of Bean town, itself already 5 years old.”

  • The_L1985

    “It was founded to educate the sons of … the elite society of Bean town, itself already 5 years old.”

    The idea of non-rich people going to a school was still not A Thing yet. But good point that there were public schools, even if they weren’t open to allof the pubic yet.

  • Monala

    “All the New England colonies required towns to set up schools, and many did so. In 1642 the Massachusetts Bay Colony made “proper” education compulsory; other New England colonies followed. Similar statutes were adopted in other colonies in the 1640s and 1650s. The schools were all male, with few facilities for girls.[4] In the 18th century, “common schools,” appeared; students of all ages were under the control of one teacher in one room. Although they were publicly supplied at the local (town) level, they were not free, and instead were supported by tuition or “rate bills.”

  • caryjamesbond

    Yeah, public schooling supported by the community goes all the way back to the founding of the country and before-although we wouldn’t recognize it as “proper” schooling. Most places in New England had mandatory school attendance from their founding. The last state with compulsory schooling was Mississippi in 1017 (no surprise) but most everywhere else had compulsory schooling from before the 1850’s. While there WAS a lot of anti-catholic prejudice, the “this is America, this is OUR WAY the RIGHT way” attitude displayed in those books was really just generally the tone of the times.

    Remember, the idea of national self-examination and cynicism about american exceptionalism and all those other ideas we take for granted didn’t really take root until Vietnam, and didn’t become mainstream and unexceptional until at least the late ’70s. The idea that America is not automatically the best of all possible nations is fairly young.

  • The_L1985

    (I believe that’s 1917, right?) :)

    And high school wasn’t compulsory in most states until the early 20th century, either. Society, and the ideas behind schooling, have changed dramatically since America was founded.

    And the exceptionalism aspect is probably part of the whole “schools should prepare young people for life in modern society” thing. In earlier times, this preparation was expected to happen by changing the children to conform with long-standing norms. Nowadays, this preparation happens by teaching the children about the diversity that exists in the US and the wider world today, and how to cope with it.

  • Victor

    (((7 things for a Saturday (9.7))))

    Forgive me Fred although “I” see that your agenda is doing great, “I” will still have to pull UP my godly card out again and tell YA that, “I’M” not going to read all of “IT” NOW! I know that in reality, you’re a famous godly write her, “I” mean writer now and you might insist on me showing you some respect for the god that YA now are but remember that “I” can still be a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDh81xL5R6Q to some for YA so for argument sake (g)all “I” can say is, talk to your soul cells and they’ll explain “IT” all to YA.

    Long story short, Fred,”I’M” sure that Peter and Paul Lalonde’s gods of “Left Behind” are also praying for me http://www.armageddonbooks.com/lalonde.html but right now, at this moment my godly cells are thinking of when we gods were taking care of Victor’s younger cells while he was working as “The Queen’s Printer” and had a few cents, “I” mean sense in his body http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnXGJooNmH8 and we had a lot of fun back then.

    Look Fred, we gods know what you’re UP to and we want to help YA and remember that with the help of U>S (usual sinning) gods, YA can fool all of the people all of the time and then some of the people most of the time but long story short, without our help, YA won’t be able to fool all of the people all of the time and……

    END YA SAY sinner vic? Don’t be like that! BE NICE NOW!

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/peculiarpeople/2013/09/why-mormon-feminism-should-be-about-men-too/?utm_source=SilverpopMailing&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Pan%20Patheos%209.7.13%20(1)&utm_content=&spMailingID=42527188&spUserID=NDEwMTQ5ODg1NTES1&spJobID=202160720&spReportId=MjAyMTYwNzIwS0

    Go Figure folks! :)

    http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/2013/09/sisters-in-crisis-revisited-from-unraveling-to-reform-and-renewal/

    Peace

  • Hth

    Does #6 have anything to do with Miley Cyrus at the VMAs? I think all of those were in response to the Hall facebook post, which doesn’t mention Cyrus.

  • Carstonio

    I still haven’t seen the Miley Cyrus performance, and right now I have no desire to see it. And I didn’t know that there was a Mothman whose real name wasn’t Byron Lewis.

  • Headless Unicorn Guy

    I knew there was going to be a News of the Weird moment when I saw the Mothman illo. Either that or Slack was cruising the TNT Area at night looking for the boogie.

  • http://www.blogger.com/home?pli=1 Coleslaw

    I am firmly convinced that Kim Hall’s boys are going to grow up to be the pua discussed in this blogpost

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/09/07/kronar-writes/

    Sample:

    I’m not some average guy begging to give my seed away. My seed is valuable and I know it.

    Men of lesser genetics may be able to afford spraying their seed anywhere; I allow myself no such atrocities.

    My sperm could populate an entire society of strong good looking altruistic people and any girl who takes it in would be lucky to be a vessel towards that new world.

    (For more fun click the link to hearing it read in the Saruman voice.)

  • Rhubarbarian82

    I was reading it in General Jack Ripper’s voice. I didn’t catch a reference to flouridation, but he’s definitely very invested in his precious bodily fluids.

  • Morilore

    “Remember: you set the price of your seed. MINE IS FUCKING GOLD! What’s yours?

    Oh my god what is air what is breathing.

  • Lori

    My sperm could populate an entire society of strong good looking altruistic

    Altruistic. I do not think that means what you think it means.

  • Fusina

    Burp, scratch, fart.

    Okay, a little cursing and this dude will leave me alone in spite of my long hair…not that I have to worry, as I am not in good physical condition, and I’m also too old for him–as are all women, really. The people I feel sorry for are the women who will fall for this bullshit–generally good looking girls who don’t know (and have probably never been told) that they are valuable people.

    But yeah, he is King of the Golden Showers…if you know what I mean…

  • Kirala

    I don’t think I’ve ever actually wanted to remove a guy’s ability to produce “seed”, but I do at this point. This is nauseating.

  • Susan Paxton

    I’d agree the pledge is creepy, but “patriotism” in America is taking increasingly creepy forms.

  • P J Evans

    And as someone who spent twelve years saying it, after about 4th or 5th grade, kids know that ‘liberty and justice for all’ is a wish, not a statement of fact, and they can remove ‘under God’ any time now.

  • Jamoche

    Case in point: Rush Limbaugh re-imagines himself as “Rush Revere” in a children’s book: http://www.mediaite.com/online/this-is-the-cover-of-rush-limbaughs-new-childrens-book/

    Limbaugh insisted “there’s no politics” in the book, but added it’s his way of “teaching what isn’t being taught” to school children today about American exceptionalism.

  • Loki1001

    Pretty much everything that is wrong with America can be found in the phrase “American exceptionalism.” It’s our modern-day answer to “manifest destiny.”

  • Matri

    “It’s been a charmed life,
    Got all I’ve ever wanted,
    And I’m not too shy to flaunt it, you see…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDwbSUwvDBc

  • Susan Paxton

    Yes, that’s remarkably puke-worthy.

  • Headless Unicorn Guy

    Rush Limbaugh is incredibly full of himself. I used to listen occasionally in the late Eighties, then heard him once or twice recently and noticed a change. He takes himself Dead Serious. Like a fundamentalist religious type.
    Someone said back in the Eighties that “Rush Limbaugh is not Conservatism as Philosophy; Rush Limbaugh is Conservatism as Theater”, and he always was a showman. Today, it’s not theater; Rush’s sense of humor (what he had of it) is no more. He is now the Dead Serious True Believer. Totally Humorless, every word devoted to The Cause. I think he listened to his own PR too much for too long and not only swallowed but digested it.

  • badJim

    One of the problems with the pledge and any number of patriotic songs is that they make no sense to kids. “One nation in a dirigible”. “Above the fruited plane” (a Carmen Miranda aircraft?). “José can you see”

    It might be all right to lead them in singing “This land is your land.”

  • The_L1985

    “One naked individual with liberty and justice for all.”

  • chgo_liz

    ….by the Dawnzer Lee light…..

    (Ramona the Pest)

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    I remember that! I had no idea what the US national anthem sounded like, so I was just as confused as Ramona about the pointless dawnzer song until the big reveal.

  • MaryKaye

    What bothered me most as a kid was “to the flag”, actually. I could grasp allegiance to a country, but that’s the second part: what the heck is the first part on about? It’s pretty clearly the flag itself, not the country, otherwise there wouldn’t be “and” between the parts. So what am I supposed to be promising? To be loyal to a *flag*?! No way. Flags are pieces of colored cloth–their only importance is what they symbolize.

    So the Pledge seemed to me to be asking for the crazy-dangerous kind of patriotism which is close to idolatry, which (as a Catholic schoolgirl) was a worry to me. So I wouldn’t do it. Later in my youth I was an atheist and wouldn’t do it for that reason. No loss either way. It is indeed creepy.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Man, what are catholic schools coming to? They of all people should be able to teach their students how icons work. What startles me is that anyone other than the Catholics would be okay with it.

  • caryjamesbond

    That is, frankly, an extremely 20th century notion. The pledge was written in 1892 by a guy born in 1855. His formative years would’ve taken him through the civil war, the last war in which the idea of regimental colors played more than a symbolic part. To a soldier on an 19th century battlefield, yes, you WOULD be expected to be loyal to your flag- you’d be expected to die for it. And not even your national flag- the flag of your regiment.

    Yes, they were important SYMBOLS, but they also served a more important practical purpose as visible rallying points for a regiment. To lose your colors meant, essentially, that you’d been defeated- and badly so.

    So, at least at the time it was written, that concept made perfect sense.

  • Keulan

    I dislike the Pledge of Allegiance for two reasons. The first is that the “under God” bit makes it unconstitutional in public (government-funded) schools. The second reason is that, like Fred, I find it incredibly creepy. A lot of kids probably don’t even understand what it means, it’s just something they recite daily in school. Besides that, why should anyone be required to pledge their loyalty to a country they just happened to have been born in?

  • ohiolibrarian

    Because many people were immigrants when this all started and might bring old quarrels with them?

    You know, like Peter King showing his allegiance to the USA by helping to fund the IRA?

  • Headless Unicorn Guy

    The “Under God” part was not part of the original, but was added during the Cold War, probably as a contrast to the USSR’s official atheism.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    If there was ever a thing which had a claim to defend itself onthe basis of “Come on, it doesn’t really mean anything, we just recite it mindlessly without anyone actually considering it any kind of binding or religious oath, most of us aren’t even paying attention or even saying actual words, just making vaguely correct sounds,” it’d be the pledge of allegiance. Most of us weren’t even fully conscious when we said it.

  • Greenygal

    At some point when I was a kid, I actually refused to recite it on precisely these grounds. I don’t remember whether I had any disagreement with the text per se, but I thought you shouldn’t say an oath unless you meant it, and we plainly didn’t.

  • MarkTemporis

    Since the oath is literally to the flag, I always considered it binding only if the piece of cloth representing the country spoke to me directly.

    In which case I think I’d have bigger problems than oathbreaking.

  • Greenygal

    But the oath is to the flag and the country.
    MaryKaye has a point that it doesn’t make a lot of sense to be pledging
    to both the symbol and the thing, but that’s how the pledge is phrased.

  • TheBrett

    4. More that it was a bad idea to allow for non-mobile fabricated homes to be sold without ownership rights to the land beneath them. Realistically, that should be phased out, with the land beneath the current ones transferred to the owners of the manufactured homes.

  • themunck

    5. No….that’s a wisp, not an angel, nor a moth. Clearly the proof that we should join our Kaldorei brethren and convert to Elune!

  • christopher_y

    Ball lightening. Well attested phenomenon, but nobody’s quite sure what it is..

  • Edward Bellamy

    Yes, you are correct, the Pledge of Allegiance should be ended, and because it was the origin of the stiff-armed German socialist salute and of that type of behavior (see the new book “Pledge of Allegiance + Swastika Secrets” by the author Ian Tinny, explaining the work of the historian Dr. Rex Curry). Bellamy was very religious, a “Christian socialist” and his original pledge was a small part of his much larger pledge program replete with hymns, prayers, references to the Bible and God, including the phrase “under God.” That is why the original pledge program cannot be performed in government schools, only the pledge’s tiny part (to which the newer deifiication was also added in 1954). The old news media will never mention the Pledge’s putrid past, nor print a photo or video of the early American stiff-armed salute. If they did, then no one would stand for the pledge. The pledge continues to be the source of Nazi behavior wherein government schools (socialist schools) begin each day by teaching bullying and peer pressure and punish dissenters. The pledge is a daily repetition of the Milgram experiment, a witch hunt, and a demonstration of the banality of evil. Francis Bellamy is sometimes referred to as America’s Leni Riefenstahl because of his earlier influence on spreading socialism (and the stiff-armed gesture) through government schools et cetera.

  • longstreet63

    You say ‘socialism’ like it was a bad thing. Which it may be, perhaps, but the word has been so misused, I generally assume that people who say it like a high priest might say ‘Blasphemy!” may not actually know what it means, or the span of ideas it contains, or the differences between it and communism, and social democracy.
    Just sayin’.

  • http://flickr.com/photos/sedary_raymaker/ Naked Bunny with a Whip

    You say ‘socialism’ like it was a bad thing.

    Yes, in almost all of his 41 comments, which are basically the same screed over and over linking socialism to Nazis. There’s no thought going on in there, just reacting to a trigger phrase.

  • Lori

    Well, it’s right there in the name. National Socialism. Would Nazis lie? It’s un-possible.

  • http://flickr.com/photos/sedary_raymaker/ Naked Bunny with a Whip

    If you can’t trust a Nazi to be honest, who can you trust?

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    No one who speaks German can be evil!

  • J_Enigma32

    Hell, it’s so damn honest that we’re verging on People’s Republic of China, here.

    I mean, when a government names itself, clearly it’s a case of “Truth in Advertising”.

    Obligatory quote:

    Sir Humphrey: East Yemen, isn’t that a democracy?
    Foreign Office Official: Its full name is the Peoples’ Democratic Republic of East Yemen.
    Sir Humphrey: Ah I see, so it’s a communist dictatorship.

  • Jamoche

    Back in the 30s, Time magazine always put the Socialism part in scare quotes.

  • Headless Unicorn Guy

    Over at TV Tropes, that’s called “People’s Republic of Tyranny”; where the more adjectives about Democracy there are in a country’s official name, the nastier a dictatorship it is.

  • Headless Unicorn Guy

    The real reason the National Socialists picked their name:
    1) In Europe of the time, “Socialist” was involved with the labor union movement. With Europe’s tradition of feudal lords and serfs, a lot of the nouveau riche (“Bourgeoise” in Marxspeak) bosses viewed themselves as New Feudal Lords and their workers as their Serfs, got very pointy-haired, and management-labor relations were UGLY.
    2) So by including “Socialist” in the name, the NSDAP were branding themselves as on the side of the working stiff (“99 percent”) against the pointy-haired bosses (“one-percent”).
    3) Yet Socialism was also a Utopian philosophy, for the entire world — “Workers of the World!” — and many European labor union types were utopian internationalists. The most extreme Socialists were the Communists, and they were totally Internationalist plus redefining “International” as loyal to Stalin in Moscow.
    4) Hence “NATIONAL Socialist” — for GERMAN working stiffs, not some One World Utopia or (more likely) Russian overlord. For Germany, not Russia.
    5) Of course, once the Nazis got elected and staged their coup-from-within in 1933, they didn’t need to brand or position themselves to win any more elections but the name still stuck.

  • Lori

    Yup. Right wingers, Jonah Goldberg probably most notable among them*, willfully missed the memo on this and created the myth of the Left wing Nazis in order to suit their own propaganda purposes.

    *Rank dishonesty being just about the only thing for which Jonah Goldberg is notable.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    I always wondered about that. I mean, I read a LOT about Nazi Germany in the late ’80s and early ’90s and the books on the subject went back to the 1960s in some cases. NOBODY ever seriously thought Nazis inhabited the political left of the spectrum.

    Now I know who started inventing that falsehood.

  • Lori

    Jonah Goldberg didn’t invent it. He’s not that smart and he’s not a real big fan of hard work*. Inventing is beyond him. He popularized it though. Dave Neiwert talks about the actual origins of the idea in his epic take-down of Goldberg’s lies, which is still available at Orcinus.

    *Among other things, when he was writing Liberal Fascism he got his readers to act as his unpaid research assistants. Apparently being raised rich and connected, and having your mom get you a cushy job, doesn’t lead to the formation of a real vigorous work ethic. Who could have guessed?

  • http://flickr.com/photos/sedary_raymaker/ Naked Bunny with a Whip

    Wow, who knew the Pledge of Allegiance was only used in *gasp* government schools.

  • The_L1985

    I specifically remember reciting it daily in a private elementary school, along with the pledge to the Dominionist Christian Flag, and to the Bible.

  • L E

    We did it in Catholic school too.

    What on earth is a Christian flag?

  • themunck

    One with a Cristian symbol on, like the Danish, Swedish, Norwegian or English flags do, I guess? And therefore not the American one, certainly -.-
    The pledge of Allegiance remains creepy and stupid.

  • The_L1985

    Not quite.

  • The_L1985

    A horrible Dominionist symbol.

    Also, since the RCC flag took the cool key symbolism, the Christian Flag was stuck with a cheesy cross.

  • J_Enigma32

    There’s a place not to far from where I live that flies this stupid little flag. To boot, they’re flying it on a taller poll than the American or Michigan State flag is flown on, which means that flag flies higher than either country or state flags.

    That’s against the flag code one, and two, if that were any other flag, people would be screaming for blood (I still remember the controversy surrounding the Mexican flag being flown above the American flag, and the bully “hero” who stole the flag because “Nothing should be flying above the flag for my country.” Apparently “nothing” translates as “Anything that isn’t this ugly little thing.”)

    I’ve often contemplated taking that flag down and then complaining that they were flying it above the American flag, but I frankly don’t care enough about either flag. I just enjoy another example of IOIYRWC hypocrisy.

  • MarkTemporis

    Just taking it down doesn’t send the right message, No, you run something up in its place. Suggestions: the Jolly Roger, Satanic banner, popular fast food chain flag, or a used pair of lingerie. If there’s a Goldman Sachs banner, that would work especially well flying over the American flag.

  • themunck

    My suggestions would be the Hammer and Sickle, a handpainted note saying “My other flag is in the wash” or just the white flag :P

  • phantomreader42

    What about Satanic lingerie?

  • caryjamesbond

    A. That flag is UUUUUGLY. And I mean “makes the South Carolina flag look like like the Welsh Flag” ugly.

    B. ……I dinnae think a flag that is virtually a white flag sends the messge they think it sends.

  • Kirala

    I taught in a private Christian elementary school briefly, and I was left with a horrible ethical dilemma. Do I avoid stupid pledges? I’d decided in high school that it was against my ethics to pledge allegiance to a flag, or to repeat mindless patriotism daily. Or do I conform to the not-outright-evil norms of my institution? My kids were WAY too young to understand civil disobedience; they’d simply gleefully follow the teacher’s disobedience without having any principle to it.

    The dilemma ended when I was fired for not fitting their pattern. C’est la vie.

  • J_Enigma32

    Make no mistake; fascism is collectivist, just like communism and just like socialism. But if communism and socialism were the same thing as fascism, they’d just be called fascism[1].

    Yes, Nazi does stand for National Socialist. And it does so in the same sense that DPKR stands for “Democratic People’s Republic of Korea”.

    [1] indeed, historians even refer to Stalinism as “Red Fascism”.

  • Headless Unicorn Guy

    I’ve also heard the phrase “Fascism of The Left”.

  • The_L1985

    Er, I’ve read the original pledge. It’s rather tame, except for the fact that the idea of forcing small children to recite a loyalty pledge, in itself, contradicts everything that America stands for.

  • ohiolibrarian

    Unless you mean ‘individualistic liberty’ (and that hasn’t always been the prime American value), I’m not sure what you are talking about.

    To have a democracy, it’s kind of helpful to regard the state/government as something you belong to (in the sense of a membership) and I see the Pledge as reflecting that. Others seem to see it as domination by the state which is also a legitimate view–but not the only possible one.

  • The_L1985

    No, see, there’s a reason that the Pledge has been officially ruled to be optional. You can allow children to make the pledge. You can even encourage them to make the pledge, as long as you’re not punishing the ones who choose not to. But forcing the pledge on schoolchildren, which a lot of public schools used to do in the past (and some private schools still do in the present), is tyranny.

  • ohiolibrarian

    So is taking gym class for some or attending school in the 1st place. If by “tyranny” you mean “being made to do something you would rather not do”. Not sure why this is more tyrannical than other things.

  • The_L1985

    I refuse to pledge to a United States of America that does not exist (we are a nation divided by politics yet again, and there is certainly NOT “liberty and justice for all”). To me, the Pledge is a piece of propaganda, a lie carefully engineered to encourage a jingoistic form of false patriotism.

    It smacks of fascism to me, and I do not feel that schools should enforce it.

  • ohiolibrarian

    Oh for goodness sake! Hyperbole much?

    I think most people realize that the “liberty and justice for all” is aspirational. And last I looked we still have 50 states even if some of them are being governed foolishly by my lights.

    I suggest you look up the meanings of the words “jingoistic” and “fascism” before you go throwing them around. Explain, for instance, how the Pledge encourages an aggressive foreign policy.

    I doubt anyway that any country, state or even heaven (assuming there is one) could meet your exacting standards.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Are you denying that the USA effectively enforces, under threat of social oppobrium, a loyalty oath from its children?

  • Jamoche

    I’m just baffled by the idea that there’s a direct line from pledge -> raised-arm salute (I’ve been told the Boy Scouts used to use it too) -> Nazis.

    It’s like what you’d get if you crossed Rube Goldberg and Godwin.

  • Edward Bellamy

    nothing baffling about it. And the Boy Scouts traveled internationally back then, spreading the stiff-armed salute and the robotic chanting and the para-military behavior, all over the globe.

  • phantomreader42

    You DO know that chanting has been a thing for thousands of years, right? Or are you really that devoid of awareness?

  • Edward Bellamy

    Thanks for not disputing my points, and for not claiming that the photograph is fake (nor the videos as the site that archives Dr. Rex Curry’s work), as you know it is genuine. If you come up with some facts to dispute, then let us know. Your evasion is obvious to everyone.

  • dpolicar

    Is it because of not disputing my points, and for not claiming that the photograph is fake that you say your evasion is obvious to everyone?

  • Edward Bellamy

    Thanks for your support and for conceding that the photo posted earlier (and the videos on the site that archives the work of Dr. Rex Curry) are not fake.

  • dpolicar

    Is there anyone else who are not fake?

  • phantomreader42

    Thanks for conceding that every claim you’ve made here is a lie, but we didn’t need to hear about the sick shit you do with cows and chickens.

  • phantomreader42

    Gish Galloping and repeatedly screaming that you’re right doesn’t magically make you right. Thanks for not disputing the fact that you’re a pathological liar who rapes farm animals.

  • Jamoche

    Sooo…. the Nazis didn’t raise their arms like that because they were Nazis, they were Nazis because they raised their arms like that?

    Got it.

  • Jenny Islander

    IIRC, Bellamy was a socialist–not a National Socialist–and a Baptist minister to boot. And according to one of his letters, he wanted the Pledge to use the words “liberty, equality, and fraternity.” Oh, the horror!

  • Edward Bellamy

    Bellamy was a socialist and a National Socialist, and supported the Nationalism movement in the USA, along with his cousin Edward Bellamy. He wanted “liberty, equality, and fraternity” in the same way as all socialist propagandists, including Stalin, Mao and Hitler.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    You know that “libery, equality, fraternity” is the motto of france, right? So presumably you’re trying to lump France in with “Stalin, Mao and Hitler”, right?

    And thereby you’re revealing yourself to be a moron, right? Because you only get to make one outlandish Nazi comparison at a time; otherwise you look like a kook.

  • Edward Bellamy

    You know that “liberty, equality, fraternity” are three words and those words are used by socialists too, and those words were used by the socialists Stalin, Mao, and Hitler, right? So presumably you’re trying to lump everyone in with “Stalin, Mao and Hitler”, right? In fact they were using those words while they set world history records for mass slaughter.

    And thereby you’re revealing yourself to be a moron, right? Because you only get to make one outlandish evasion at a time; otherwise you look like a kook.

    anyhoo, thanks for not disputing the points made: Bellamy was a socialist and a National Socialist, and supported the Nationalism movement in the USA, along with his cousin Edward Bellamy. He wanted “liberty, equality, and fraternity” in the same way as all socialist propagandists, including Stalin, Mao and Hitler.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Yes, the crazy obsessed person who’s named himself after Bellamy in his determination to smear the pledge-writer as a proto-nazi is clearly the clever and sober one in this discussion

  • Edward Bellamy

    You make it so easy to rebut you, in that you cannot respond to the facts. Yes, the crazy obsessed person who’s unable to marshal any support in his determination to smear the person telling the truth and cover-up the pledge’s putrid past is clearly the clever and sober one in this discussion.

    You know that “liberty, equality, fraternity” are three words and those words are used by socialists too, and those words were used by the socialists Stalin, Mao, and Hitler, right? So presumably you’re trying to lump everyone in with “Stalin, Mao and Hitler”, right? In fact they were using those words while they set world history records for mass slaughter.

    And thereby you’re revealing yourself to be a moron, right? Because you only get to make one outlandish evasion at a time; otherwise you look like a kook.

    anyhoo, thanks for not disputing the points made: Bellamy was a socialist and a National Socialist, and supported the Nationalism movement in the USA, along with his cousin Edward Bellamy. He wanted “liberty, equality, and fraternity” in the same way as all socialist propagandists, including Stalin, Mao and Hitler.

  • AnonaMiss

    Socialism and National ‘Socialism’ are diametrically opposed, so the situation you describe is not only false, but trivially, tautologically false. Come back when you have something to say that isn’t self-debunking.

  • Edward Bellamy

    Socialism and National ‘Socialism’ are not diametrically opposed, so your statement is not only false, but trivially, tautologically false. Come back when you have something to say that isn’t self-debunking. and thanks for not disputing the pic and videos of the early pledge of allegiance. You know they are true.

  • AnonaMiss

    You should really do some research about the Nazis before you take them at face value about whether they were socialist or not. Turns out, they liked to lie about things.

    You know that poem about all the people that Hitler targeted and had locked up, and how the writer of the poem didn’t speak up etc. etc.? Well here it is in its original form:

    When the Nazis came for the communists, I said nothing; I was, of course, no communist.
    When they locked up the Social Democrats, I said nothing; I was, of course, no Social Democrat.
    When they came for the trade unionists, I said nothing; I was, of course, no trade unionist.
    When they came for me, there was no one left who could protest.

    Source: http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/quotations/niemoller_jews_communists_socialists.html

    ‘Social Democrat’ was a more mainstream socialist party than the far-left communists.

    Now you could argue that the Nazis targeted the communists and the socialists first because they were competition, but the trade unions? Unions are the backbone of a socialist electorate. If you’re targeting unions, you need to hand in your socialism card, because you’re doing it wrong.

    As for the pictures, I find the bug you have up your ass about this baffling. No one here cares if your photos are fake or not. Contrary to what you may have heard, liberals don’t worship government or believe it can do no wrong; and a bunch of commenters here have already made clear that they think the pledge of allegiance is creepy. So what’s with the weird gloating about us not denying the veracity of your photos? Do you think that if you repeat that they’re real enough times we’ll rally around and call them fake?

    We know segregation happened, and we know that the government enforced it. We also know that it took federal intervention to stop local governments from continuing to enforce it, once broader national opinion swung around to recognize black people as equals. An elected government is a reflection of the society that chooses it; and sometimes, the society that chooses it turns out to be full of assholes.

  • Edward Bellamy

    You guys are so pathetic that it is clear that you KNOW the photos and videos are correct, you know the info is correct, you can’t STAND it, and you will spend the rest of your lives repeating propaganda in an effort to cover up the truth, no matter what. You have just been schooled and you can’t stand it. You can’t bear to learn the truth and how you have been duped all of your lives, and you have been repeating lies that you were taught, and you do not want to stop.

  • dpolicar

    That’s flattering and all, but honestly I suspect that the overwhelming majority of us haven’t advanced far enough along the path to your particular flavor of enlightenment even to recognize the truth of your commentary long enough to want to hide from that knowledge.

    And it’s a waste to expend your efforts on a community, like this one, that just isn’t ready to find truth in what you have to say.

    It’s a big Internet; surely there’s someone else out there better suited to benefit from your time and attention.

  • phantomreader42

    The projection is STRONG with you! Have you ever seen a mirror?

  • Archer

    Donno why I’m jumping in here, but…

    If I’m following the logic here, the use of any symbolism
    that would at some point in the future become associated with Nazis makes one a
    Nazi and taints everything associated with it with Nazism. Right?

    So by that logic the fact that swastikas have been
    found on 8000-year-old Bulgarian pot shards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Archaeological_record)
    proves that Neolithic Bulgarians were in fact Nazis and that the use of
    pottery, the domestication of animals and the establishment of permanent settlements are
    part and parcel of Nazi ideology and should be shunned by all right-thinking
    people.

    That is what you’re going for, right?

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    No, we’re so sure the information is wrong and the photos don’t mean anything even vaguely resembling your insane claims that there’s no point in arguing with you. You’re not even wrong.

  • AnonaMiss

    So since you haven’t denied the veracity of any of my claims, by your logic that must mean you agree with them, eh?

    Glad you’ve come around.

  • phantomreader42

    It’s not other people’s responsibility to dispute your feeble excuses for “points”. It’s YOUR responsibility to provide some actual evidence for your claims. You have not done so. You have not even tried. You just keep babbling about “socialists” without showing any understanding of what the word even means. Why should anyone believe you, if you can’t be bothered to offer the slightest speck of evidence to support your nonsense?

  • Edward Bellamy

    Congrats for not claiming that the photograph is fake (nor the videos as the site that archives Dr. Rex Curry’s work), as you know they are genuine. If you come up with some facts to dispute, then let us know. You just keep babbling about without showing any understanding of the topic. Why should anyone believe you, if you can’t be bothered to offer the slightest speck of evidence to support your nonsense?

  • phantomreader42

    I don’t know or care if the stupid, ugly photo you posted is fake (though the letters floating in the air and the web address suggest it wasn’t taken in the 1890s). The photo doesn’t actually mean anything except that some people moved their arms. It doesn’t even come close to backing up any of your unsupported assertions. And since you’re a pathological liar who rapes farm animals (a fact you have not disputed), nothing you say can be trusted anyway.

  • Jamoche

    “The photo doesn’t actually mean anything except that some people moved their arms.”

    But the arm position is magic!

    So every time the congregation is asked to raise our arms in blessing, and those of us in the choir can only raise one arm as the other is holding a music binder … yes, it’s true, I’m afraid I’ve been infected with the Nazi one-armed-raised meme-virus.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    You know that “liberty, equality, fraternity” are three words and those
    words are used by socialists too, and those words were used by the
    socialists Stalin, Mao, and Hitler, right?

    You know what else? I heard Hitler ate sugar!

    anyhoo, thanks for not disputing the points made: Bellamy was a
    socialist and a National Socialist, and supported the Nationalism
    movement in the USA, along with his cousin Edward Bellamy. He wanted
    “liberty, equality, and fraternity” in the same way as all socialist
    propagandists, including Stalin, Mao and Hitler.

    Edward Bellamy was a socialist. He was not a National Socialist. And National Socialism isn’t the same thing as the Nazis, despite their coopting of the term. And he did not want the french national motto in the same way as Stalin Mao or Hitler.

    Further, neither Stalin, Mao, or Hitler wanted “liberty, equality and fraternity.” Charles DeGaulle wanted those things. You know. THe guy on the opposite side as Hitler.

    There. I’ve disputed the points made. I didn’t do it before because they were stupid nonsense not worth my time to argue any more than it is worth my time to argue that the moon isn’t made of green cheese.

  • phantomreader42

    Who the fuck is Rex Curry, and why should anyone believe his nonsensical babbling?

  • Edward Bellamy

    Dr Rex Curry is the one who popularized the photo that you are not disputing is correct, though you imply that you wish you could with your nonsensical babbling. He is the person who does not go by the name “phantomreader42” har har.

  • phantomreader42

    Ah, I see, Rex Curry is one of the voices in your head. Again, you have not offered anything that even vaguely looks like a reason to believe the delusional ravings of the voices in your head. But thanks for not disputing the fact that you’re a pathological liar who rapes farm animals.

  • caryjamesbond

    Man, when a simple wikipedia search can prove all your statements wrong….

    And given that all references to “Francis Bellamy is sometimes referred to as America’s Leni Riefenstahl” seem to come directly from someone using this name and virtually this exact screed….

    SPAM!! SPAAAAAAAM!

  • Edward Bellamy

    oh no, someone who uses wakipedia, an anonymous bulletin board as a reference. Aside from that it does not prove the statements wrong, it confirms them, which is why the responder did not cite any actual example.

  • phantomreader42

    Why should anyone bother to cite an example refuting you, when you haven’t even offered a speck of evidence to back up your nonsensical ravings?

  • Edward Bellamy

    I did offer an example refuting you: the photograph that you do not dispute (just as you do not dispute the videos at the site that archives the work of Dr. Rex Curry). Go ahead, try to claim they are fake. and please provide a speck of evidence to back up your nonsensical ravings. We are waiting.

  • phantomreader42

    Ah, I see, you have no idea what the word “evidence” means, and you think pasting some text on a photo magically makes whatever you say true. You are hopelessly delusional, in addition to being a pathological liar who rapes farm animals.

  • caryjamesbond

    Yeah, I wouldn’t particularly trust Wikis for, say, an unbiased look at the bush presidency. But when you’re talking about the time period and history of the bellamy salute, the history of Bellamy himself, and multiple sources agree with me, and one Florida lawyer crackpot agrees with you….well, the preponderance of evidence speaks for itself.

    SImply put, the facist salute and the bellamy salute look similar, because there are only so many salute like movements the human body can make. (seriously- hand to head, hand straght out, maybe arm across chest, beyond that, it starts to look stupid. Try it at home!)

  • phantomreader42

    You’re conflating socialism, nationalism, and the Nazis. These are not the same thing. The fact that you pretend they are suggests that you neither know nor care what words mean.

    You act like the raised-arm salute was what made the Nazis bad, rather than that bit with the genocide. That’s just so ridiculous and backwards that I don’t see how it’s possible to communicate with someone so stupid as to believe it.

    You also seem to think the problem with Stalin, Hitler, and Mao was that they were “socialists”, rather than that they brutally murdered massive numbers of people. Again, this is so detached from reality that explaining how wrong it is is futile, as you are clearly not capable of understanding.

    You have offered no evidence that Ballamy was a Nazi. You have not even come close. And apparently the only person who has referred to him as “America’s Leni Riefenstahl” is you.

  • Edward Bellamy

    You’re trying to claim that there is no relationship between socialism, nationalism, and the Nazis. These are the same thing. The fact that you pretend they aren’t suggests that you neither know nor care what words mean.

    You act like the raised-arm salute had nothing to do with what made German national socialists bad, and that it was unrelated to that bit with the genocide. You are just so ridiculous and backwards that I don’t see how it’s possible to communicate with someone so stupid as to believe it.

    You also seem to think the problem with Stalin, Hitler, and Mao had nothing to do with the fact that they were “socialists”, and that it was unrelated to the fact that they brutally murdered massive numbers of people. Again, you are so detached from reality that explaining how wrong you are is futile, as you are clearly not capable of understanding.

    You have offered no evidence that Bellamy had no influence on mass-murdering socialists, including German socialists. You have not even come close. You do not even dispute that he was “America’s Leni Riefenstahl.”

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    The only thing that is equivalent to a Nazi is a Nazi, and even then, it wouldn’t be wise to conflate conscripted troops with the SS. There are numerous socialistic programs in perfectly civilized countries who are not engaged in maintaining concentration camps or building a totalitarian empire.

  • Edward Bellamy

    Another person who wants to ignore the socialists Stalin and Mao, and their mass murder that exceeded that of German socialists, and who always uses the misnomer “Nazi” in his effort to cover up for socialism.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    I’m not ignoring them. Even if they were socialists (and I could disagree, as a totalitarian dictatorship is not intended to benefit the masses), you’re making a rductio
    ad Hitlerum
    argument. A thing is not instantly bad because it can be associated with Hitler (otherwise known as the Hitler Ate Sugar trope).

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Wow. You’re really really stupid, aren’t you? I mean, an actrual grade-A moron. You think the Nazis were socialists. What, pray tell, does the word “Socialism” mean? You seem to think it’s just a generic word for “bad”.

  • phantomreader42

    I see, you have no idea what the Nazis did, you have no idea what socialism is, or what nationalism is, or what the word “dispute” means. In fact, you clearly have no idea at all what most words mean. You are functionally illiterate. About what I’d expect from a pathological liar who rapes farm animals.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    You act like the raised-arm salute had nothing to do with what made
    German national socialists bad, and that it was unrelated to that bit
    with the genocide.

    That’s because phantomreader is not a moron, and therefore knows that a raised arm salute has fuck-all to do with genocide or what made nazis bad, and more than a charlie chaplin moustache has anything to do with what made hitler a bad man.

  • phantomreader42

    Edward Bellamy babbled:

    You’re trying to claim that there is no relationship between socialism, nationalism, and the Nazis. These are the same thing.

    No, they really aren’t. You clearly have no idea what words mean, or that they even HAVE meanings. I’ve provided some explanatory links above, which I know you’d rather gouge out your own eyes than look at.

    Edward Bellamy feebly chanted:

    You act like the raised-arm salute had nothing to do with what made
    German national socialists bad, and that it was unrelated to that bit with the genocide.

    You really think that saluting with a raised arm (but somehow no other salute or gesture) magically makes people commit genocide? You’re really that delusional? Do you happen to know the verbal and somatic components for the Invisibility spell by any chance? I can never seem to get those right…

    Edward Bellamy snarled:

    You also seem to think the problem with Stalin, Hitler, and Mao had
    nothing to do with the fact that they were “socialists”, and that it was unrelated to the fact that they brutally murdered massive numbers of people.

    Yeah, call me crazy, but I think MASS MURDER is a lot bigger problem than a political ideology that you don’t actually know the meaning of, so you just act like it’s generic label for anything you don’t like. Of course, the fact that you have no idea what “socialism” means, and would rather die than learn, makes you incapable of comprehending the differences in the ideologies you label “socialist”.

    Edward Bellamy flees in abject terror from the burden of proof:

    You have offered no evidence that Bellamy had no influence on mass-murdering socialists, including German socialists.

    Okay, let me try explaining this to you again. Every word you vomit forth from your mouth does not magically become true. It is YOUR responsibility to support YOUR claims. You have not done so. You have not even tried. You have not even so much as feigned interest in whether or not what you say is true. You just keep demanding that everyone believe you without a speck of evidence. It doesn’t work that way. But I wouldn’t expect a pathological liar who rapes farm animals such as yourself to understand that.

    Edward Bellamy pretends his favorite soundbite is a magical incantation:

    You do not even dispute that he was “America’s Leni Riefenstahl.”

    As I said, YOU are the only person who calls Francis Bellamy “America’s Leni Riefenstahl.” The fact that you keep saying it doesn’t magically make it true. I know you desperately WANT your continual chanting of this bullshit soundbite to rewrite history in your image, but it’s not gonna happen. Not even if you keep repeating it every hour of every day until you die. Oh, and while I’m at it, clapping your hands won’t make fairies real either.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino
  • Kyle

    Hey West Virginia is Almost Heaven!


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