Is The New Apostolic Reformation Biblical?

Is The New Apostolic Reformation Biblical? June 7, 2017

Have you heard of the NAR or the New Apostolic Reformation? If so, here’s what you need to know about it.

New Apostles?

The New Apostolic Reformation claims that there is a new wave of apostles and prophets today, but what does the Bible tell us who can and who can’t be an apostle? And hasn’t the foundation already been laid 2,000 years ago. A foundation that’s build on top of the Chief Cornerstone (Jesus) and the foundation of the apostles and prophets that were laid thousands of years ago are shaky at best and I wouldn’t want to live in such a structure. How can we have two foundations by claiming to have another foundation after 2,000 years? The Bible doesn’t teach this, so I am already leery of this New Apostolic Reformation. Two years ago a self-proclaimed prophet told me, “You’re not a pastor…but God has called you to be a prophet,” so I asked, “If God wanted to speak to me (and He already does in His Word), why would He use a third party (that man) to tell me something, and to tell me something that is not found in God’s Word?” The qualifications for an apostle are such that no man could be one today. When Judas was being replaced as an apostle, the apostles said, “Let another take his office” (Acts 1:20c) with these being the qualifications: “So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection” (Acts 1:21-22), so to be an apostle, one must have been with the Lord all of the time during His ministry, beginning from the baptism of John, but they must have also been a witness of Jesus’ resurrection, like all of the apostles were, so that would clearly disqualify anyone from being an apostle today. They can’t be that old! Anyone living today couldn’t have been with Jesus from the beginning to His resurrection, and they couldn’t have been an eye-witness to His resurrection. Sorry self-anointed apostles; it’s not that you don’t qualify as an apostle; it’s just that it’s not possible you can be one…unless you’ve been around since the time of Christ, and impossible.

New Prophets?

What about prophets? Is God still raising up prophets today? We know that the apostles and prophets are the foundation, one that was laid thousands of years ago. The author of Hebrews wrote, “Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world” (Heb 1:1-2), so it was long ago that the prophets spoke and in the last days, God has spoken through His Son (the gospels), so any one who claims to be a prophet must still be living today, all the way form “Long ago.” The man who told me he was a prophet and believed I was too, didn’t understand that “when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him” (Deut 18:22). That means you don’t need to listen to him. This man’s prophecy was wrong. He had one chance to prove it and didn’t, so by definition, this man was not a prophet sent from God. All he is doing is deceiving himself and deceiving others. Over two years ago this man prophesied over me that I’d be going from church to church and speaking as a prophet, but this man was wrong…and ironically, this man is going from church to church, but not to be a prophet, but doing it for prophet. He told me I could make good money traveling with him, so I finally saw the man’s motivation; not truth from God but fleecing God’s flock.

Long-ago-at-many-times (1)

New Revelation?

Does God still give new revelation today? If we believe that, we’re saying, “Thanks for your Word God, but it’s not enough…we need more,” when the fact is, we already have all we need revealed in Scripture. There is no “PS” to Scripture, especially from some man claiming that God spoke to him about some new revelation. Besides, we’re warned about adding to or taking away from God’s Word and the serious consequences of such actions (Deut 4:2; Prov 30:6; Rev 22:18-19). My concern is, maybe God spoke to him, but maybe was the god of this world or his own imagination? Those who are teaching these things are deceiving others and are themselves, deceived, and “In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God” (2nd Cor 4:4).

Manmade Theology

When we drift outside of Scripture and begin to develop our own theology, it is no longer theology (a study of God) but me-ology (a study of what I think,) and that ends badly because people who speak outside of Scripture will be assumed to be speaking for God, when in fact, God hasn’t spoken through them at all, and why should He? He has already spoken to us all through the prophets, the apostles, and of course, through His Son (Heb 1:1-2) in the Word of God, so to add to or take away from what’s in the Bible, we are setting ourselves up for falling into error. God has already spoken to us (Heb 1:1-1), and this is put in the past tense, so the faith has already been delivered and not still being delivered. God has spoken to us through His written Word, so why listen to what others tell you what He has allegedly said?

Conclusion

Who determines that this is the New Apostolic Reformation? Who said this was fact? We know it’s not found in Scripture and we know we can’t trust human sources, because only the Word of God is without error; humans, not so much. They are offering a new doctrines and new teachings, while ignoring the current doctrines and teachings of the Bible. They offer nothing but promises, but their promises aren’t delivered. The miracle healer that I spoke with 2 years ago still refuses to come to our children’s cancer ward in our nearby city to put to work his “miraculous healing powers.” He claimed to have miraculous healing powers, but when it came to proving this, he made excuses for not coming. Don’t misunderstand me; God can and does still heal people, but it is His decision and not ours. We can pray for healing for someone, but God’s will is above and beyond the human scope of understanding, so let’s stick with what we know and rest upon the foundation that was laid 2,000 years ago by Christ, the apostle, and the prophets, and not upon a recent, manmade movement that rests not upon the sure foundation of God and His Word, but instead, rests on sinking sand. For these false teachers, it is “Thus says man” and not “Thus says the Lord.” If it’s new, it’s not from God; if it’s from God, it’s not new.

Article by Jack Wellman

Jack Wellman is Pastor of the Mulvane Brethren Church in Mulvane Kansas. Jack is host of Spiritual Fitness and also the Senior Writer at What Christians Want To Know whose mission is to equip, encourage, and energize Christians and to address questions about the believer’s daily walk with God and the Bible. You can follow Jack on Google Plus or check out his book Teaching Children the Gospel available on Amazon.


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  • When Judas was being replaced as an apostle, the apostles said, “Let another take his office” (Acts 1:20c) with these being the qualifications: “So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection” (Acts 1:21-22), so to be an apostle, one must have been with the Lord all of the time during His ministry, beginning from the baptism of John, but they must have also been a witness of Jesus’ resurrection, like all of the apostles were, so that would clearly disqualify anyone from being an apostle today.

    So does that mean that Paul was not an apostle? He was not with Jesus during that time and at no time had any interaction with Jesus other than his vision on the road to Damascus.

    • Sam Andrew

      I think the short answer is yes. Paul/Saul was not an Apostle or Disciple of Jesus of Nazareth. Added to the fact he was not amongst the group from when they were part of John the Baptists movement, is the clear differences between Pauls theology and the other disciples/Jesus and the obvious friction between them that the New Testament can’t really gloss over, and he seems (from my understanding) to have been grudgingly accepted on the fringes of the very Jewish movement lead by James after Jesus death, due to his success in bringing in collections from gentiles. Paul was out there doing his own thing so followers of Jesus ought to have nothing to do with the somewhat confused writing of Paul, it is an accident of history that Paul’s strange messianic movement ended up the ‘catholic’ version.

      • pud

        Paul was a lunatic, murderer, psychotic ….and the champion of christians everywhere! LOL

      • Robert Driskell

        “I think the short answer is yes. Paul/Saul was not an Apostle or Disciple of Jesus of Nazareth”. However, this statement would contradict the many times Paul claimed to be an apostle (I Corinthians 1:1; II Corinthians 1:1, etc). Just an observation

        • Jack Wellman

          Exactly Robert. It’s sad that instead of God calling apostles and prophets, they are calling themselves, and that what the main purpose of this article is. Thank you.

          • pud

            Well I’m calling myself an immortal centaur!! Now you must “believe” everything I say and write.

        • Sam Andrew

          Indeed Paul is an Apostle by his own admission, in his own mind no doubt, but I’m not so sure he was accepted as such by the people who had actually met Jesus.

          • Alex Voon

            Why did God chose Paul besides the 12 disciples? One reason is because non of the 12 disciples is a teacher of the Torah. But Paul is a Pharisee, a teacher of the Torah, laws of God. And he corrected the Rabbi and scribes. Paul also corrected Peter (a Jew) in the Torah because non of the 12 disciples were Pharisees except Paul who knows (very well) the Torah and Talmud (laws of men) in order to correct them. This is why Peter said (2 Peter 3:15 – 17) that the unlearned (who had no understanding of the laws) interpreted Paul’s writings and the laws of God i.e. scriptures wrongly to their own destruction. I am not sure if Paul had learned the teachings of Jesus Christ from any of the 12 disciples.
            Peter and James acknowledge Paul as brother but Luke acknowledge Barnabas and Paul as apostles for he wrote in Acts 14:14 – Which when the “apostles”, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
            It is clear that God had called Paul to preach the gospel to Gentiles and Jews. Thus, any kind of disputes is irrelevant.

      • Jack Wellman

        Thank you Mr. Andrew. Paul was wrong then by calling himself the not “an” Apostle to the Gentiles? Anyway, the point to this article is instead of God calling apostles and prophets, they are calling themselves, which is contrary to Scripture.

        • Sam Andrew

          Yes I get that, my point is more Paul was allocating to himself the title of Apostle in perhaps the exact same way these New Apostolic movement people (i.e. you can apply the same arguments you use to discredit some of these NAM people to discredit Paul), neither were with Jesus from the start with John, and from my reading whether Paul was genuinely accepted as an apostle of Jesus or not is highly suspect (in some cases I think he protests a bit too much – 1 Corinthians 9:1 and almost admits as much “Even if I am not an apostle to others, surely I am to you” and that he went off to preach among the Gentiles suggests he was not really welcome or convincing to Jews which is a whole other story), and I think in general a non-Pauline Christianity is worth a lot more investigation there was much more diversity in those early years that has survived in ultimately ‘successful’ traditions.

          Anyway it’s good you’re pointing out the scriptural flaws in some of these new age, faux-Christian movements that owe their impetus far more to profits than prophecy.

    • pud

      Doesn’t matter to jack….he sees what he wants to see, makes up what he needs to and believes what he believes in the face of any and all reason

      • Robert Driskell

        Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You misuse passages from the Bible as if they had no relation to any other passage of the Bible and then say “See, I told you so”. Is that how you read other books? Start at any random point, point to a sentence and say “See, I told you so”? That is no way to read any book. You take what’s written in the book as a unit and interpret it as a whole.
        I’ve read your responses before, Pud, you excel at using the illogical methods that you accuse others of using. You make caustic, unsupported accusations and then demand others to substantiate every word they speak (write). But, I’ll bet I’m wasting my time even posting this to you. Still, I’m praying that your understanding will eventually be opened.

        • pud

          Yep..If you’re prayin you’re wasting your time. LOL

          The “perfect” word of a deity should have zero inconsistentcies, no errors, no need for interpretation or interpolation, should be instantly recognized by every human as perfect and all its truth claims should be instantly and easily supported by scientific evidence.

          Then too there should be only one religion instead of dozens and one denomination instead of 40,000!

          Yet…we find NONE of the above

          This is why you are all lunatics in an insane delusional apocalyptic death cult from the Bronze Age!

          Funny if it weren’t so damn pitiful and sad

    • truthhasfallen

      Paul was not an apostle to the Jews but to the Gentiles. Mattais was chosen by the Holy Spirit to take Judas place as an apostle to the Jews. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles (which Peter, James and John all agreed – Galatians 2:9). Paul saw the resurrected Christ and was appointed directly by Him and by the Holy Spirit, worked signs, miracles and wonders to confirm his apostleship.

      Acts 22:21
      Romans 11:13
      1 Cor 9:1
      1 Cor 15:9
      2 Cor 12:12
      Gal 2:6-9
      Ephesians 3:7-9

      As a side note, the remarks below by Sam Andrew show very little understanding of the Scriptures or Christian theology. Time doesn’t permit an extensive point-by-point response to Sam’s comments, but suffice to say that in 2 Peter 3:14-16, Peter called Paul’s letters and writings “Scripture” and he strongly rebuked people like Sam who distort and twist the Scripture.

      “….Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction….” 2 Peter 3:14-16

      • Your argument is is not supported by what is taught in the book of Acts as to the definition of an Apostle. Not to mention that there is a lot of disagreement that 2 Peter was written by the Apostle Peter. Not to mention that calling calling Paul’s letters and writing as scripture is impossible since the letter were written to specific churches. How exactly would Peter know what was in those letters that were written to those churches? Where is the evidence that those letters was widely circulated? If so were the letters copied? Did the scribe accurately copy the letter? There is no evidence of anything you suppose.

        • Alex Voon

          Agreed – ” calling Paul’s letters and writing as scripture is impossible since the letter were written to specific churches.”
          Paul’s letters and writing are teachings (interpretation) of the scriptures from OT Torah and prophets. Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit indwelling in him. Why did God chose Paul besides the 12 disciples? One reason is because non of the 12 disciples is a teacher of the Torah. But Paul is a Pharisee, a teacher of the Torah, laws of God. And he corrected the Rabbi and scribes. Paul also corrected Peter (a Jew) in the Torah because non of the 12 disciples were Pharisees except Paul who knows (very well) the Torah and Talmud (laws of men) in order to correct them. This is why Peter said (2 Peter 3:15 – 17) that the unlearned (who had no understanding of the laws) interpreted Paul’s writings and the laws of God i.e. scriptures wrongly to their own destruction. I am not sure if Paul had learned the teachings of Jesus Christ from any of the 12 disciples.

          Where is the evidence that those letters was widely circulated? We won’t be able to know unless History tells us so.

          How exactly would Peter know what was in those letters that were written to those churches? We know from Peter’s letter (is a clue) as stated in 2 Peter 3:15 as our beloved brother Paul hath written unto you;
          16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
          Even if there is a lot of disagreement that 2 Peter was written by the Apostle Peter but we can search the OT to test and proof Paul’s writings (bible) just like the Bareans who were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the (OT) scriptures daily, whether those things were so. – Acts 17:11.
          Today’s main issue is the fact (problems) that there were many forgeries of the letters of Paul during the canonization of the bible in 325 AD and much distortions of the bible by the Catholic Church that follows since then. It is near impossible to get the true writings now. Our only source is what we have now although the interpretation and translation of the bible are not fully accurate.
          Beware of the doctrines of men invented by the Fathers of the church that we Christians today, The Church overall (esp. Mainstream churches) have unknowingly accepted through the ages. Trinity is one of the doctrines of men. We learn these doctrines from our church and we have been misled by them. None of the Fathers of the Church e.g. Augustine, Origen, Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wesley are the author of biblical scriptures and Yet we Christians, The Church overall have unknowingly accepted their ambiguous doctrines. All of them were antisemitic Gentile Christians seeking scriptures to find Truth, trying to understand scriptures without any of the apostles (Paul and others) to teach them. They with their own assumptions and ideology have written doctrines of men and their doctrines (e.g. Trinity) are now debunked moot and flawed. Paul never taught us Trinity doctrine but Paul taught, concluded and affirmed that there is Only One God who is the Father and Only One Lord, Jesus Christ the son of God. 1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. Based on this premise, Jesus is merely a Man who is the Son of God. For Only the Father is God ( but we know Jesus deity as Jesus is also the same God who created Haven and Earth). There is but only one God.

          • Trinity doctrine is gobbledegook. Jesus said that he did not know the day nor the hour when he would come again, but only the Father knew. So Jesus claimed not to be omniscient. Hence he could not be God.

            If only the Father knows then the third God, the Holy Spirit could not know either. So he’s not God. But how do we know that the male God (the Father) knows? Jesus said so, but if Jesus didn’t know the day nor hour, how do we know that the male God knows? And how can three Gods be one God? Perhaps there are no gods.

          • Alex Voon

            Your opinion is without revelation and understanding from God. No man can understand God for none knew Him before and none have seen God at any time. The people saw Jesus Christ during 2000 + years ago and yet they did not know He is the son of God. God only reveal to His 12 disciples that Jesus is the son of God. Only the disciples knew and they preached Jesus to the Jews where many believed. Today we are confused as the true writings of the apostles were distorted, altered or forged by impostors and the papacy. Translations errors of the bible is largely imminent. For the Jews there is no need for translation as Hebrew is their mother tongue. Therefore the Jews declared that there is only one God cannot be wrong. Based on this first and foremost truth, one must conclude that the 3 are One in theory. My view is the Holy Spirit is the Father in creation. The son is the Holy Spirit in creation. Isaiah prophesied of the son first coming as a servant. The son was not revealed until the time Marry gave birth. Her son, Jesus is a man like us. Yet Jesus was the Holy Spirit of God before creation. This is in line with the Jewish concept of there is only one God.
            Note – The son, Jesus is a man after birth. But before birth, the son, Jesus was the Holy Spirit in the beginning. As a man, Jesus is no more omniscience. The bible says the Son (who is a man) does not know that day and that hour; – But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
            Note – It does not says that the Holy Spirit does not know that day and that hour!
            In the beginning God and the Holy Spirit of God was seen as the creator. The Son was not mentioned here but the Son (was the Holy Spirit) was involve with the creation.
            Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
            2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
            3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
            Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
            16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
            17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
            18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
            19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; .

            The bible says the Son and the Father are One but did not mentioned the 3 are One.
            We will need God to give us the understanding of what One means based on scriptures.
            All the disciples were Jews and their writings are according to Jewish custom by nature.
            Only the Jews have the Word of God which is now translated in the bible for us, Gentiles.
            Translations errors of the bible is largely imminent.
            The Jewish concept of there is only one God cannot be wrong.
            We know God is real because we have God and He dwells in us.

          • “The Son was the Holy Spirit before his birth”. Not according to the Catholic church.

            The church confesses the triune God from before the foundation of the world. Jesus is said to have existed as the Word of God from the beginning. The Catholic church confessed the dogma of the Trinity at the Council of Nicaea.

            Of course, its all gobbledegook. The organised and powerful church undertook abstruse philosophical justifications for this dogma and compulsion was used to persuade heretics to come into line. So much for the Holy Spirit guiding what was essentially a decision based on power. This mumbo jumbo about the Holy Spirit guiding the church is just nonsense.

          • Alex Voon

            You will only know who is God if you have God dwelling in your heart. Otherwise, you will not know who is God. I know because God dwell inside me and He guides me in understanding the bible and doing ministry. Many other Christians like me can testify that God is real and He dwells inside us. Evil spirit dwells in those who are corrupt like those of the papacy. By their deeds, we can know the difference.

      • Alex Voon

        Agreed, Paul is an apostle to the Gentiles as called by Christ to evangelize to us. Paul is also a teacher of the Torah, laws of God and He corrected the Rabbi and scribes.

      • Bart Ehrman claims that 2nd Peter is a forgery.

        • truthhasfallen

          You mean the Bart Ehrman who absolutely refuses to debate or even discuss that which he so confidently writes about?

          You mean the Bart Ehrman who refuses to even consider the opposing opinions of the multitude of qualified historians, Hebrew & Greek scholars and theologians who strongly disagree with his conclusion and views?

          It doesn’t take too much courage to write a book about your opinions and views. A book allows you to hide behind paper and pen. It provides a way to get your views out to millions without scrutiny. Ehrman is absolutely free to do that.

          However, real courage is seen when you present your ideas and views in a way that allows them to be scrutinized and evaluated against evidence. THAT is something Bart Erhman REFUSES to do. He seems to be content on slandering the Christian faith, but doesn’t want to be questioned or have his views put under the microscope and evaluated against the evidence. He seems to highly desire the place of judge and jury against Christianity and the bible.

          His attitude seems to be “….believe me, don’t question it, don’t critique it, just believe it!

          But we’re not like that are we? We openly and freely discuss these things in a respectful, yet direct way. So you will have to be a little more specific about why you think Ehrman’s views on 2 Peter are correct.

          • Most (?) or at least many NT scholars believe the only 7 of Pauls’ letters are genuine the other 6 are pseudonymous and they also believe that author(s) of 1 and 2 Peter is also using Peter’s name as a pseudonym.

            Bart Ehrman argues that this amounts to forgery. You may or may not agree with him, but they probably were not written by Peter.

          • truthhasfallen

            You say “Most (?) or at least many NT scholars believe the only 7 of Pauls’ letters are genuine the other 6 are pseudonymous and they also believe that author(s) of 1 and 2 Peter is also using Peter’s name as a pseudonym…”

            You need to define what you mean by the term “NT Scholar”. There are many different fields of NT scholarship, each with its own field of study. But yes, there are a number of learned, intelligent LIBERAL scholars who agree with Ehrman’s views.

            Unfortunately for Ehrman and those who side with them, it is THEY who are in the minority in NT Scholarship who hold that 1 & 2 Peter are forgeries. Yes, they can say it, but it’s another thing to “prove” it. The responsibility is on them to prove these books weren’t written by the apostle.

            You say “Bart Ehrman argues that this amounts to forgery.”

            Bart Ehrman can argue yes, but that doesn’t necessarily make him correct. Since he is claiming they are forgeries, it is his responsibility to “prove” beyond a shadow of a doubt that his assertion is correct.

            According to the majority of NT Scholarship, he has not only failed to do so, but has taken great liberties with the rules of textual criticism, resulting in an eisegesis approach to biblical interpretation (reading his own meaning into the text).

            You say “…You may or may not agree with him…”

            Personally, I don’t agree with his conclusions.

            You say “…but they probably were not written by Peter.”

            Quoting Bart Ehrman or relying on the opinions of the so-called “many” NT Scholars isn’t enough evidence to substantiate your claim that “they probably were not written by Peter”. What specific argument and correlating evidence can you provide to back up such a statement?

  • Sam Andrew

    “Besides, we’re warned about adding to or taking away from God’s Word and the serious consequences of such actions (Deut 4:2)”

    That’s an interesting point, looking at Deuteronomy “You shall not add to the word which I command you, neither shall you diminish from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.”, it is very clear that after this point, that is Moses speech to the Israelites prior to entering the Holy land, there is to be not change to the statutes or canon of essential words of God beyond the Torah at all. On that basis how can one take any of the writings of the New Testament or rest of the Old Testament as being the word of God and/or binding in any way shape or form when Deuteronomy clearly say this is it no more. As a devout Jew Jesus himself would have no doubt agreed that he had no power to change the Law at all given this clear injunction in Deuteronomy, so essentially by taking the New Testament as a sacred word of God, isn’t that essentially ignoring Deuteronomy as the binding word of God?

  • See Noevo

    “…the fact is, we already have all we need revealed in Scripture.”

    That sounds neat.

    Where does Scripture say that?

    • The Happy Atheist

      Though we almost certainly disagree on just about everything else, I actually completely agree with you on this point. I was never a sola scriptura guy even when I was a Christian. I thought the Wesleyan Quadrilateral was much more compelling.

    • Jack Wellman

      Heb 1:1-2, Jude 1:3.

      • See Noevo

        No and No.

        • Jack Wellman

          Can you show me where there is yet more Scripture to come?

          • See Noevo

            That’s a separate question. Let’s stick with the question at hand:

            Where does Scripture says we already have all we need
            revealed in Scripture?

          • Alex Voon

            God had spoken all things from the beginning to the end. Isa 46:10 – Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

            God will not do anything else unless He reveal them to His prophets. Thus, God had revealed all things from the beginning to the end.
            Amos 3 :7 – Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

            Jesus Christ is the author of all things and He is going to finish them.
            Heb 12:2 – Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
            John 17:4 – I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 19:30 –
            When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
            Heb 4:3 – For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

          • See Noevo

            Thanks for trying.

          • Alex Voon

            God will not do anything else unless He reveal them to His prophets. Thus, God had revealed all things from the beginning to the end.
            Amos 3 :7 – Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

            The prophesies of God through His holy prophets and Jesus Christ, all the Word of God and the laws of God are all revealed to us and all we need. Psa 119:89
            LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

            These scriptures indicate that God has given sufficient scriptures for us and He will not do new things unless He reveal them to His prophets. His word is settled.

          • See Noevo

            Keep trying.

            P.S.
            Where in Scripture is the holy table of contents?

          • Alex Voon

            I have given sufficient information on specific scriptures to show that God has given us all we need to seek Him and know Him as that is all He will reveal to us. You won’t find a single verse that reads what you are looking for.
            There is No formulas and No holy table of contents given by God because He speaks through many prophets. It is humans who formulated and made table of contents. Read and study the whole bible to seek God for yourself. There are some good teachers but there is Not one person (teacher) today who knows the whole Truth or full doctrine of Christ because the Catholic Church has distorted the gospel of Christ since the 3rd century. Thus, the churches today have been misled by them with doctrines of men which is heresy.

          • See Noevo

            “Read and study the whole bible to…”

            Who determined what the *whole* bible is?

            And…
            ah, forget it.

            Farewell, Alex.

          • It’s all the doctrines of humans.

          • Alex Voon

            God had spoken through Jesus and His disciples.
            The writings of the new apostles were distorted by the ruler-ship of the Romans Catholic Church and the popes throughout history.
            They invented the false theologies and false doctrines.
            Not all doctrines are of humans.
            God have in this days given wisdom, knowledge, understanding and revelation of the true doctrine of Christ to true Christians who are godly, faithful and obedient to Him.

          • How do you know that God has spoken through Jesus and his disciples?

            Its not just the Catholic church that it corrupt. Isn’t it also the Protestant and other churches?

            How can the bible be inspired when it has so much immorality in it? The church is surely not inspired?

          • Alex Voon

            The bible is the only historical book which testify that God have spoken to man through Jesus and his disciples. Many scholars have studied (researched) the bible. The bible is the only reliable resources for man to seek God and to understand truth. Many godly men have been martyred for upholding the bible. Evil men in the papacy had murdered millions in their conspiracy to destroy by burning the true manuscripts. They have distorted the writings (partly) of the new apostles in the bible (not completely).

            Its not just the Catholic church that it corrupt. Isn’t it also the Protestant and other churches? – No, not in the 1st century.

            Only godly prophets and godly men, in ancient times or today are inspired by God.

          • If the Catholic church has distorted the dogmas since the 3rd century, as you claim then maybe the dogmas of the churches have always been distorted.

          • Alex Voon

            I understand from history and the bible that much of the dogmas of the churches have always been distorted. Corrupt men had distorted the true gospel of Jesus Christ, the son of God. The bible is the only reliable resources for us to seek the true gospel of Jesus Christ ourselves.

          • The apostles and prophets were speaking nonsense. The new apostles and prophets are speaking further nonsense since God doesn’t exist, but if he does then I’d prefer the old prophets and apostles over these so-called new guys.

          • Alex Voon

            You are correct partly. The old prophets and old apostles gave us the Word Of God which is the foundation of Christian’s faith.
            But the Catholic Church has distorted the gospel of Christ since the 3rd century. They distorted, changed, rejected and abolished the Mosaic laws of God and invented it’s (papacy) false theocracy. They distorted, falsified and misinterpret the writings of the new apostles. Thus, all the churches today have been misled by them with doctrines of men which is heresy.

  • pud

    “We know it’s not found in Scripture and we know we can’t trust human sources, because only the Word of God is without error; humans, not so much”

    More absolute proof that you are completely delusional. The buybull IS NOT the word of a god nor is it without error. Anyone who can make a statement such as you have is either insane, willfully delusional or suffering the most massive case of cognitive dissonance ever recorded!

    Should we kill?

    Exodus 20:13 “Thou shalt not kill.”
    Leviticus 24:17 “And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.”
    vs.

    Exodus 32:27 “Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor.”
    I Samuel 6:19 ” . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter.”
    I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 “Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. . . . And Saul smote the Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.”
    Numbers 15:36 “And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.”
    Hosea 13:16 “they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up.”
    For a discussion of the defense that the Commandments prohibit only murder, see “Murder, He Wrote”, chapter 27 (Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist).

    Should we tell lies?

    Exodus 20:16 “Thou shalt not bear false witness.”
    Proverbs 12:22 “Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord.”
    vs.

    I Kings 22:23 “The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.”
    II Thessalonians 2:11 “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.”
    Also, compare Joshua 2:4-6 with James 2:25.

    Should we steal?

    Exodus 20:15 “Thou shalt not steal.”
    Leviticus 19:13 “Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, neither rob him.”
    vs.

    Exodus 3:22 “And ye shall spoil the Egyptians.”
    Exodus 12:35-36 “And they spoiled [plundered, NRSV] the Egyptians.”
    Luke 19:29-34 “[Jesus] sent two of his disciples, Saying, Go ye into the village . . . ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him. . . . And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? And they said, The Lord hath need of him.”
    I was taught as a child that when you take something without asking for it, that is stealing.

    Shall we keep the sabbath?

    Exodus 20:8 “Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy.”
    Exodus 31:15 “Whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.”
    Numbers 15:32,36 “And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. . . . And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.”
    vs.

    Isaiah 1:13 “The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity.”
    John 5:16 “And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.”
    Colossians 2:16 “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy-day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days.”
    Shall we make graven images?

    Exodus 20:4 “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven . . . earth . . . water.”
    Leviticus 26:1 “Ye shall make ye no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone.”
    Deuteronomy 27:15 “Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image.”
    vs.

    Exodus 25:18 “And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them.”
    I Kings 7:15,16,23,25 “For he [Solomon] cast two pillars of brass . . . and two chapiters of molten brass . . . And he made a molten sea . . . it stood upon twelve oxen . . . [and so on]”
    Are we saved through works?

    Ephesians 2:8,9 “For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works.”
    Romans 3:20,28 “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight.”
    Galatians 2:16 “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ.”
    vs.

    James 2:24 “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”
    Matthew 19:16-21 “And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he [Jesus] said unto him . . . keep the commandments. . . . The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven.”
    The common defense here is that “we are saved by faith and works.” But Paul said “not of works.”

    Should good works be seen?

    Matthew 5:16 “Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works.”
    I Peter 2:12 “Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that . . . they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.”
    vs.

    Matthew 6:1-4 “Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them . . . that thine alms may be in secret.”
    Matthew 23:3,5 “Do not ye after their [Pharisees’] works. . . . all their works they do for to be seen of men.”
    Should we own slaves?

    Leviticus 25:45-46 “Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . . they shall be your bondmen forever.”
    Genesis 9:25 “And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.”
    Exodus 21:2,7 “If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. . . . And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the manservants do.”
    Joel 3:8 “And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it.”
    Luke 12:47,48 [Jesus speaking] “And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.”
    Colossians 3:22 “Servants, obey in all things your masters.”
    vs.

    Isaiah 58:6 “Undo the heavy burdens . . . let the oppressed go free, . . . break every yoke.”
    Matthew 23:10 “Neither be ye called Masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.”
    Pro-slavery bible verses were cited by many churches in the South during the Civil War, and were used by some theologians in the Dutch Reformed Church to justify apartheid in South Africa. There are more pro-slavery verses than cited here.

    Does God change his mind?

    Malachi 3:6 “For I am the Lord; I change not.”
    Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent.”
    Ezekiel 24:14 “I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent.”
    James 1:17 ” . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.”
    vs.

    Exodus 32:14 “And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.”
    Genesis 6:6,7 “And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him.”
    Jonah 3:10 “. . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.”
    See also II Kings 20:1-7, Numbers 16:20-35, Numbers 16:44-50.

    See Genesis 18:23-33, where Abraham gets God to change his mind about the minimum number of righteous people in Sodom required to avoid destruction, bargaining down from fifty to ten. (An omniscient God must have known that he was playing with Abraham’s hopes for mercy–he destroyed the city anyway.)

    Are we punished for our parents’ sins?

    Exodus 20:5 “For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.” (Repeated in Deuteronomy 5:9)
    Exodus 34:6-7 ” . . . The Lord God, merciful and gracious, . . . that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.”
    I Corinthians 15:22 “For as in Adam all die, . . .”
    vs.

    Ezekiel 18:20 “The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.”
    Deuteronomy 24:16 “The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.”
    Is God good or evil?

    Psalm 145:9 “The Lord is good to all.”
    Deuteronomy 32:4 “a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.”
    vs.

    Isaiah 45:7 “I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things.” See “Out of Context” for more on Isaiah 45:7.
    Lamentations 3:38 “Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?”
    Jeremiah 18:11 “Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you.”
    Ezekiel 20:25,26 “I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord.”
    Does God tempt people?

    James 1:13 “Let no man say . . . I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.”
    vs.

    Genesis 22:1 “And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham.”
    Is God peaceable?

    Romans 15:33 “The God of peace.”
    Isaiah 2:4 “. . . and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”
    vs.

    Exodus 15:3 “The Lord is a man of war.”
    Joel 3:9-10 “Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.”
    Was Jesus peaceable?

    John 14:27 “Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you.”
    Acts 10:36 “The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ.”
    Luke 2:14 ” . . . on earth peace, good will toward men.”
    vs.

    Matthew 10:34 “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.”
    Luke 22:36 “Then said he unto them, . . . he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.”

  • pud

    “Don’t misunderstand me; God can and does still heal people, but it is His decision and not ours. We can pray for healing for someone, but God’s will is above and beyond the human scope of understanding”

    Prove it then explain why prayer is a waste of time since your deity does whatever the fuck he wants to do anyway

  • pud

    Imagine that a doctor found a cure for ebola or cancer and went around selectively “healing” a chosen few due to his particular whims…what would any moral human being think of him withholding a cure when he has the ability to heal everyone afflicted?

    You…as indoctrinated and delusional as you are…would have to consider this doctor a moral monster.

    Yet, your imaginary invisible man made gawd can do the very same thing according to your twisted logic and still command your unquestionable adoration.

    Tell me “pastor” jack…how can you reconcile this? How could you consider yourself sane condemning one scenario and not the other? GL!

    • Robert Driskell

      Pud,
      If that ‘imaginary doctor’ was the Creator of the universe, and if it were according to His purpose how we live, then He also has the right to decide who lives when and where and for how long. Or do you think that a being such as that should answer to you or to me? And, you would help your argument if much of it didn’t consist of infantile name-calling. Just a suggestion.

      • pud

        What stupid infantile apologetic nonsense! It is absurd in the highest degree to think an “all loving” “all powerful” creator of universes made you just so he could toy with you at his discretion …Stop thinking like a child and grow up…use your mind and don’t swallow this BS.

        PS..when you write childish idiotic drivel you deserve insulting

      • The Happy Atheist

        “…do you think that a being such as that should answer to you or to me?”

        No, but that’s not the only question. That being’s “morality” would be so far removed from that of his creation that he could be the most evil force in the universe and we would never know. That is precisely why the argument you’re making is so unconvincing.

      • pud

        Hey look! Your gawd was busy being sovereign over a bus load of kids! “HE” decided to wreck the bus I guess huh?

        Huntsville church bus involved in Atlanta crash, at least 17 reportedly injured
        AL.com – ‎40 minutes ago‎
        A church bus carrying high school students and adults has crashed in the Atlanta area, leaving several people injured. Fox 5 Atlanta is reporting at least 17 people were injured, including several children.
        1 killed, dozens injured after church bus overturnsWXIA-TV
        Church bus crashes in Atlanta area; several injuredWRCB-TV

      • ScruffOz

        The trouble is that logic, rational thought & science do not penetrate deluded minds. Sometimes name calling is all that’s left for a frustrated thinker. Not good, but understandable.

  • Rational Human

    Jack, did God immediately kill the false prophet who “prophesied” over you, as the bible says he will? Did you carry out the death penalty yourself?

    • Jack Wellman

      This is in the Old Testament but their judgment will come. Do you think there are still prophets today is the question.

      • Rational Human

        Yes, it is the OT. So what? Is God not the same yesterday, today, and forever? Did Jesus not say he came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it? And that not one jot or tittle would be overlooked? ( before you pull out the go-to apologetic reply, death and resurrection, even if happened, is not as fulfillment of the law, just ask any jew. Fulfillment is keeping, obeying, enforcing, not substituting).

        Are there “still” prophets? The better question is were there ever…?

        • Alex Voon

          Yes, God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Yes.
          Jesus said he came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it And that not one jot or tittle would be overlooked.

          God would have immediately kill the false prophet who “prophesied falsely” if He chose to. But instead God gave men His law through Moses for men vested with authority to execute judgement. The layman has no authority to do so. But the people rebelled against Moses. The high priests took over after Moses demise but they loved the false prophets and they killed the true prophets and Jesus Christ. But God did not do anything to them until much later Israel was destroyed and seized. It is the same today. The false prophets are not dead yet because God did nothing about it yet but be rest assured that God will in due time. There are prophets and apostles in ancient times but not today. But there are many false prophets and false apostles today.

          • Rational Human

            But, this happened, but then this, but that, just you wait, they will be sorry, God will get them in the end.

            Why don’t you just admit to yourself that these are all “just so” explanations to fill all the plot holes in this storybook? You have no idea what God has or hasn’t done, will or won’t do at some unspecified time in the future. All you have is unfulfilled promises and threats, and you have deluded yourself that they are real. Sad.

          • Alex Voon

            Time will tell.

          • Rational Human

            How many generations, since Jesus allegedly told some that “those standing here” and “this generation” would see these things, have come and gone in the last 2000 yrs? And still, all we hear is any day now…time will tell…Just you wait… Claiming to know something that you can’t possibly know, and has been demonstrated to be false, is the same as lying. Shame on you.

            Jesus also allegedly said his followers would do these works and greater works. When was the last time you walked on water, or changed water to wine?

            You have based your life on fairy tales. Give it up already.

          • Alex Voon

            I know The Word of God but to you they are fairy tales. The choice to believe God or not is fully yours. Time will tell. I can’t convince you to believe God but check your comments if they are facts or not in the web on bible and church history. The scholars study this.

  • Monty

    There are the founding Apostles but the need for apostles did not go away just because the early church was established. Someone has to take the Word to those who have yet to hear it and establish churches where there are none. Today we call them missionaries, which is simply the Latinised word for Apostle. Who calls them? Ideally the local church as led by the Holy Spirit. The problem is that what is known as the church is so far removed from the biblical pattern that it is barely recognisable. We do not need “new” revelation but anyone who imagines that they have all the spiritual knowledge that there is to know is deluded. I suggest that you ignore pud, by the way. I don’t believe in atheists so he does not exist.
    Lord Jesus healed all who came to Him. The problem is that few will humble themselves enough to come to Christ. It was not a whim, it was and is dependent on the choice of the individual. I’ve experienced both instant and progressive healing. I don’t know why. When you are dealing with the Creator of the Universe who loved me enough to send His Son to die in my place, I do not need to understand everything. God is fundamentally good and always does what is right. Atheists (in spite of the fact that they do not exist) have no right to pass judgement on anything or anybody. They have nothing as a standard of right and wrong. Yet they insist on making judgements. It is the ultimate in hypocrisy.

    • “Atheists (in spite of the fact that they do not exist) have a right to pass judgement on anything or anybody. They have nothing as a standard of right or wrong. Yet they insist on making judgments. It is the ultimate hypocrisy.”

      You are just plain wrong. Now I can’t speak for others. But some atheists are humanists and see that things are right when they promote human welfare and well-being and are wrong when they are opposed to human welfare and human well-being.

      You imagine that a god exists. This might or might not be so. If God doesn’t exist, then why would morality cease to be. People have to live together in community with others and cooperative social relationships promote better relationships than coercion.

      So making judgements on a humanistic basis is not ultimate hypocrisy, if there is consistency in those judgments.

      • Monty

        What is “humanistic”? A violent gang has a view that it can rob, assault, even kill. To the gang it is all good. Their behaviour is humanistic. 1.6 billion people follow a book that says that gays and adulterers should be murdered, as should anyone who renounces that religion. Who can say that they are wrong? We are seeing the catastrophe of a godless society unfold before our eyes. Europe is descending into chaos because one set of “humanistic” values is clashing with another. One set of moral values (which is fluid, not fixed) clashes with the other. You will see that the forceful and violent will win. It already has won in Sweden, the battle is almost over in France and the other Western European nations are on the same slippery slope. Canada is not far behind and the USA is at risk.

  • Again, for the most part I find the article is right-on and scriptural except for a glaring
    exception: The one Apostle that Christ commissioned to preach to us His salvation message; i.e., I Cor. 15:3,4 —– IS NOT EVEN MENTIONED ONE TIME!
    How can this omission occur, and occur time after time in churches and Bible Institutions all over the world? God’s Word tells us that “No other doctrine” saves.
    “1 Timothy 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,”
    Must I ask what that doctrine was that Paul insisted believers including Timothy
    must exclusively teach? I gave the verses in this very post! Many, like this Pastor Wellman are working at delivering the gospel, as Paul said he “delievered” it, but
    please take off the blinders when it comes to preaching “no other doctrine”.