How Christians Look at Death

How Christians Look at Death February 15, 2019

Death is not an easy subject to discuss, but for believers, there is hope after the grave, and here is Scripture to show that.

No Separation

Nearing the end of his ministry, the Apostle Paul knew that his time was drawing near, and so he wrote to Timothy, “For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand” (2 Tim 4:6). Paul could rightfully say, “I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith” (2 Tim 4:7). Paul knew that his death was coming, but he also knew that death was not the end. He understood that “there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing” (2 Tim 4:8). There was no doubt in Paul’s mind “that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom 8:38-39). Many of the first century believers faced the threat of death for their faith, but Paul wanted the church at Corinth to be of “good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord” (2 Cor 5:6-8), so even after we pass from this life to the next, we will be at home with the Lord. There is no mention of an “in-between” or soul-sleep, but just as Jesus told the thief on the cross, that very day, he would be with Him in Paradise (Luke 23:43).

Death’s Not Final

Somehow, even Job knew enough about God to know that He was a redeeming God. For example, he wrote, “I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. My heart faints within me” (Job 19:25-27)! There is confidence in Job’s statement. It’s not only a hope or desire, but a fact. It’s not a hope-so but a know-so. He knew that His redeemer “will stand upon the earth” someday, after his body has been destroyed. He knew that he would see God, in his flesh, so it’s not surprising that Job said “My heart faints within me.” He longed for that day, but so too do the saints. After Lazarus had died, Martha was troubled by Jesus not preventing it, but “Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this” (John 11:23-26)? I ask you, “Do you believe this?”

Death of Death

Imagine that death itself will end someday. After we die or if Christ returns, we can have the assurance of living again and being in His presence. After David’s infant had died, he had confidence that he’d see the infant again, writing, “But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me” (2 Sam 12:23). Of course, was David speaking of his infant son who died. Paul also knew the day was coming “When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Cor 15:54-57). Even further, on the day that the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven, God “will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away” (Rev 21:4). Death will be no more! Let that sink in for a moment.

No Fear of Death

King David, who for many years had to run for his life, wrote, “Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me” (Psalm 23:4). A shadow of death is not as fearful as death itself, but the way believers can look at death is that “if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s” (Rom 14:8). John records a voice from heaven saying, “Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them” (Rev 14:13)! When a saint dies, it is a precious thing in our sight. We mourn and grieve, but that’s mostly for our own loss, but our loss is heaven’s gain, and if you could ask them, they most certainly wouldn’t want to come back to this world. God also sees our grieving, and wants us to know that “Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints” (Psalm 116:15). As we know, “the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it” (Eccl 12:7), but that’s good news “since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep” (1 Thess 4:14).

Conclusion

One of the greatest chapters about the resurrection is 1st Corinthians 15. Here Paul writes that “in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ” (1 Cor 15:20-23). The promise of God, from Jesus Himself, says, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16), soWhoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this? (John 11:25-26)? Again I ask, “Do you believe this?”

Article by Jack Wellman

Jack Wellman is Pastor of the Mulvane Brethren Church in Mulvane Kansas. Jack is a writer at Christian Quotes and also the Senior Writer at What Christians Want To Know whose mission is to equip, encourage, and energize Christians and to address questions about the believer’s daily walk with God and the Bible. You can follow Jack on Google Plus or check out his book Teaching Children the Gospel available on Amazon.

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  • pud

    You are a death cult janitor jack. You can’t wait for it. You look forward to the destruction of everything, revel in blood up to the bridles of horses. You are a total sick depraved death cult that looks upon life as just a place to wipe your feet.

    ““For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life”

    Make believe human blood death sacrifice…what could be more sick? AND RIDICULOUS…that a “god” who is all knowing wise and loving had to send HIMSELF as a human blood sacrifice to HIMSELF to fix a problem he HIMSELF orchestrated! ARE YOU INSANE JANITOR JACK? I think so.

    • Matthew 22:37

      You are out of your mind twisting scripture like that on a Christian blog like the devil railing at a pastor.

      Pastor Wellman is not a janitor any more. And if he was so what? He’s a lot saner than you.

      Resurrection signifies new life and Jesus’ victory over death not a death cult.

      Any 5 year old can tell you that.

      So what has twisted your thinking?

      • pud

        A janitor is honest work….lying to children and terrorizing them with religious hellfire is child abuse.

        If you aim to help drunks do you go to a church or a pub? I go to where the religious lunatics hang out…doing my part to help you leave this horrific cult if I can

        Tell me skippy…..Exactly why would an all powerful, all knowing, all loving “god” have to kill himself as a ritual blood sacrifice to himself to fix a problem he clearly knew was coming and in fact orchestrated himself?

        Have you ever had a critical thinking moment in your entire life?

        • Matthew 22:37

          No you are not going to where the “religious lunatics” hang out. This is not a church. This is online.

          You’re not helping anybody out of anything. You just look and act a bit like a repellent Nazi verbally abusing people different from yourself.

          What can be explained to a spiritually blind person like yourself (who is determined to remain blind) about Christ’s choice to lay down his life for people.

          You probably don’t comprehend symbolism or prophecy at all. As far as I can tell most unbelievers are stone cold blind when it comes to understanding prophecy yet you want to interpret scripture on an evangelical blog to people who understand it better than you.

          Why don’t you stop spouting nonsense and learn.

          You’re not doing anyone any favors acting like a narcissistic, xenophobic, antisocial critic on this blog.

          What ever made you think tearing people down was ok?

          Who are you to tear down people?

          Who are you to control their life decisions?

          You chose a different path so why don’t you stick to it instead of meddling on here in things you don’t understand.

          You obviously don’t understand the first thing about Christianity.

          So why are you acting like you do.

          Get on with your life some where where you belong. You are committed to being offended and not understanding God’s perspective.

          So don’t criticize what you don’t understand now. You refused to understand so how can you be an expert on what you don’t understand?

          • pud

            There is no evidence for any “jesus” whatsoever

            Ritual human blood sacrifice is disgusting

            A “god” sacrificing himself to himself is ridiculous

            Your entire narrative is absurd and infantile

            One has to be extremely gullible and/or intellectually lazy to buy into any of the nonsense your cult puts forward

        • Matthew 22:37

          To be quite honest I have probably had many more critical thinking moments than you have. Christ said to examine myself. I did and admitted I am a sinner.

          But atheists seem to duck that self examination. It could be a latent narcissistic tendency or some other personality disorder prompting that.

          Probably why you try to force people to admire you on message boards by attempting to dominate them intellectually.

          There really is no reason for me to engage atheists with mental disorders any more. At this point you appear incapable of self reflection and examination and thoroughly out of control of yourself. So the Bible concept of reprobation does seem to apply to atheists.

          Arguing won’t cure your mental problems and since atheism (which appears to contain xenophobia, antisocial and narcissistic elements) could potentially harm other people I suggest you take your anti-religion obsession up with a psychiatrist and see if you can be cured of it.

          You could have learned to love people by following Jesus’ example but that appears impossible for you to do right now.

          Maybe the psychiatrist could teach you how to engage your inner psyche and learn the art of self reflection. At least then you wouldn’t hang around on message boards making a verbally abusive bully out of yourself.

          Debate may actually harm you as it allows you to indulge your narcissism, antisocial tendencies and xenophobia without restraint.

          You need to learn respect for other people’s personal boundaries and how to control this tendency you have to meddle in the concerns of other people.

          You are violating their freedom of thinking by attempting to force xenophobic, narcissitic and antisocial atheistic propaganda on people.

          You don’t have a personal right to control or direct other people’s thoughtlives. Nobody does.

          Only your overwhelming ego makes you think you do.

          Seek medical help if you cannot examine yourself and repent, pud, and have a blessed day!

          • pud

            Clearly you have not….If you did you would know that “jesus” didn’t “say” anything…Your mythical storybook claims he said this or that…There is no non biblical evidence for the existence of “jesus”, you cannot identify anyone who followed him around transcribing word for word what “he” might have said and a critical thinker would ask straight off….who wrote down his words when he was ALL ALONE?

            It is a STORYBOOK with STORYBOOK characters and you are a gullible fool who misrepresents it as actual history reality and truth. It is not…it’s an absurd stupid story that is incorrect from beginning to end.

            You have not and cannot offer any evidence to support any of your baseless claims and assertions.

            You are an epic indoctrinated delusional gullible fool.

          • Matthew 22:37

            God creates the better person.

            You’re obviously not one of the better people because all you do is tear other people down.

            You are just another fallible man trying to illegally assert control over other people when you haven’t even proven yourself to them first.

          • pud

            Then your invisible undetectable “god” must be incompetent. “Illegally” eh? LOL. You are so far gone….you can’t even see the reservation you’ve strayed off of.

          • Matthew 22:37

            You act like a narcissist like Ayn Rand who destroyed her own husband indulging her own selfishness at his expense.

          • pud

            You only seem to be able to make up comments about my personality which you have no insight on whatsoever…Why is that all you’re capable of? Why are you completely unable to address my actual critiques and defend your baseless claims and assertions?

          • Matthew 22:37

            Atheism and mockery

            The new atheist Richard Dawkins has encouraged his supporters to go beyond humorous ridicule.[1] He wrote, “I lately started to think that we need to go further: go beyond humorous ridicule, sharpen our barbs to a point where they really hurt.”[2]
            Unlike Christianity, which is supported by a large body of sound evidence (see: Christian apologetics resources), atheism has no proof and evidence supporting its ideology (see: Attempts to dilute the definition of atheism). In addition, atheists have a tradition of making assumptions about various matters that have later have proved to be wrong.[3]

            The appeal to ridicule fallacy, also known as the appeal to mockery and the horse laugh, is a fallacy of relevance. It consists of mocking an opposing argument rather than considering it on the merits.

          • pud

            Ridiculous ideas deserve ridicule. That’s how we make progress.

            There are no merits to “believing” superstitious nonsense and ancient mythology. All that ever got us was the Dark Ages.

          • pud

            There is NO “atheist ideology” stupid

            There is NO evidence to support ANY of the absurd claims in your crazy book..NONE. NADA, ZIP

          • Matthew 22:37

            You started it years ago calling theists lunatics.

            Did you ever examine yourself?

            You are one of the most intolerant people on the whole planet.

            Isn’t that your ego behind the firm intolerance?

          • pud

            People who “believe” ridiculous things on no evidence are indeed lunatics. You believe what only a lunatic could believe. My tolerance or intolerance doesn’t address the truth claims you lunatics make…why can’t you address the actual subject matter? Why? Are you fearful that you will have your delusional arguments destroyed?

          • Matthew 22:37

            I have evidence. The God of the Bible creates better people.

            I read about a Cambodian once. He was raised in the Buddhist tradition but converted to Christianity because he perceived Christians as being better.

            In Buddhism all the donations support the monks.

            In Christianity a lot of charity is practiced and flows outside the church to help the community.

            That is what the Buddhist convert to Christianity saw.

            But you don’t care about charity.

            You must vindicate your own ego on this blog every day of the week.

          • pud

            Demonstrate that any “god” does anything. Do not “claim” that he/she does…prove it!

          • Matthew 22:37

            Claims can be based on personality. Your personal bias makes you disposed to cherrypick and refuse to consider everything.

            Perhaps, you cherrypick to protect your fragile ego while you attempt to bully people into surrendering their own thinking capability to you.

            That is what all the insults and mockery is about. Weak people might surrender to bullying and relentless propaganda after a while.

            But a strong minded person thinks for himself and decides for himself. Especially on questions of personal identity.

            You as an unethical person who uses verbal bullying tactics have no right to control or advise anyone else on their thinking and life decisions.

            You only have credibility among the weak minded and easily deceived.

          • pud

            Again…nothing buy your opinionated personal attacks…What prevents you from addressing the actual content of the posts by janitor jack or my critique of them? Are you not able?

          • Matthew 22:37

            Don’t you ever talk about personal attacks Mr. Personal Attack personified.

            You are meaner than the devil.

          • pud

            Demonstrate the existence of the “devil”…See, you won’t and can’t…you simply “believe” in ridiculous superstitious nonsense. cheers!

          • Matthew 22:37

            I don’t have to demonstrate the devil if he regularly shows himself in human nature, do I?

            I can’t help it you aren’t perceptive enough to spot the devil in human nature can I? So you resort to denying he exists and keep demanding proof.

            Human bad behavior is enough proof of sin and the devil.

            What you need something more demonstrative than the crimes people commit?

            Then your perception is dull.

            I am not turning cartwheels for some person that doesn’t trust or use his own perception.

          • pud

            Stupid, retarded, brainless, mindless CLAIM! PROVE that it’s the devils doing or piss off. PROVE that bad behavior is the work of any agent or piss off.

          • Matthew 22:37

            I believe God. He’s the One who went to work on reclaiming people from the devil and restoring them.

            He was doing it long before Sigmund Freud came along.

          • pud

            Prove it. Or piss off. Prove anything you claim. or again, piss off. You’re a waste

          • Matthew 22:37

            There are over a billion people following Jesus Christ today. You want to deny that proof.

            They follow him because he is adored for his character, words and deeds.

            Religions don’t get started without founders and Christ has the best character of out of all religious leaders.

            Also Christ is a pattern for his people to follow. He is our role model.

            Jesus Christ versus Richard Dawkins, Stalin, Pol Pot

            Who would a perceptive person choose to follow?

            All you do is tear God and what He has done down.

            You never think about the consequences of doing that though atheistic regimes have failed all over the world.

            Regimes are based on people.

            Human nature is the basic building block of everything in the human world.

            People surrender to God knowing He intends to restore anything He tears down.

            All you do is tear down.

            Why would I want to be remade in a fallible man’s image when there is the matchless image of Jesus Christ to follow?

            You are a damn hack who doesn’t know what he is doing.

            You don’t control outcomes like God does either so why would anyone trust you to lead them?

          • pud

            Here’s proof of how stupid, gullible and non thinking you are..

            There are MORE muslims
            There are MORE hindus

            So does that make their ridiculous “beliefs” more true than your ridiculous “beliefs”?

            The story book character “jesus christ” was a moral monster. He endorsed slavery, he supposedly could cure disease but only healed a select few. There is no historical evidence for his existence. Everything you babble is make believe.

            Your make believe “god” is a tyrant and terrorist. Believe or die! He’s a mafia boss a thug and raving lunatic that killed millions out of spite in your make believe storybook.

            We’re done now….You just babble bullshit and nonsense over and over without any effort to actually PROVE any of your stupid claims

            Actually PROVE with evidence…rational evidence not opinion or personal experience…ANY of your claims or I’m done responding to you.

          • Matthew 22:37

            No I am done with talking to you. You are too set in your thinking and ways. The psychology of religion is every bit as important and may be more important than every other religious topic.

            Why do you call Christians delusional when you refuse to examine yourself and allow God to deal with your own sinful nature?

            I hope you see the light some day!

          • Matthew 22:37

            Here’s the The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) for antisocial personality disorder.

            Don’t you recognize yourself engaging in some of these activities?

            Antisocial Personality Disorder
            https://outofthefog.website/personality-disorders-1/2015/12/6/antisocial-personality-disorder-aspd

            Gaslighting – The practice of brainwashing or convincing a mentally healthy individual that they are going insane or that their understanding of reality is mistaken or false. The term “Gaslighting” is based on the 1944 MGM movie “Gaslight”.

            Shaming – The difference between blaming and shaming is that in blaming someone tells you that you did something bad, in shaming someone tells you that you are something bad.

            Sabotage – The spontaneous disruption of calm or status quo in order to serve a personal interest, provoke a conflict or draw attention.

            Raging, Violence and Impulsive Aggression – Explosive verbal, physical or emotional elevations of a dispute. Rages threaten the security or safety of another individual and violate their personal boundaries.

            Scapegoating – Singling out one child, employee or member of a group of peers for unmerited negative treatment or blame.

            Ranking and Comparing – Drawing unnecessary and inappropriate comparisons between individuals or groups.

            Self-Aggrandizement – A pattern of pompous behavior, boasting, narcissism or competitiveness designed to create an appearance of superiority

            Splitting – The practice of regarding people and situations as either completely “good” or completely “bad”.

            Stalking – Any pervasive and unwelcome pattern of pursuing contact with another individual.

            Targeted Humor, Mocking and Sarcasm – Any sustained pattern of joking, sarcasm or mockery which is designed to reduce another individual’s reputation in their own eyes or in the eyes of others.

            Triangulation – Gaining an advantage over perceived rivals by manipulating them into conflicts with each other.

            Verbal Abuse – Any kind of repeated pattern of inappropriate, derogatory or threatening speech directed at one individual by another

            ASPD is very hard to treat. Quite a few people having it are in prisons and people with ASPD have a pervasive pattern of problems with authority figures.

            Don’t your actions match quite a few if not all of the actions above, pud?

            Maybe you had better start examining your own reality and stop questioning other people’s.

            Science hasn’t replaced God yet in everyone’s mind and identifying with animal nature i.e. apes might lead to regressive behavior in some people.

            God sets the bar considerably higher on human behavior than equating it with animal behavior does.

            Atheism might be the sabotaging of civilization by teaching it to identify with backward ideas.

            It’s better to strive to be a better person than it is to backslide and permit oneself to engage in socially backward behavior based on rationalizations that identify with animal behaviors isn’t it?

            How can a better person be produced if he is frequently making excuses for an animal nature.

            You don’t think what you identify with in your heart and mind doesn’t influence human behavior?

            Since you lack any psychiatric credentials at all perhaps you should stick to analyzing yourself, pud, and not other people.

            All you do is render bombastic, negative judgments on people as if you are all knowing when obviously you aren’t.

            Seek medical help if you can’t stay off message boards. Why should people have to be the victims of your psychological issues?

            How many times have you called theists “lunatics”? It must be in the thousands on this blog and probably a lot, lot more in your own mind.

            All those negative value judgments on Christians and not one genuine self examination of yourself and what you are doing on this message board criticizing people different from yourself constantly.

            You need to get honest with yourself for a change.

          • pud

            You may have noticed that this website is not mine. Nor is it a forum for me to “self examine” It is a religious fundamentalist website promoting the christian cult run by a former janitor who now makes his living lying to children.

            Demonstrate the truth of any of your claims….your religious claims not your claims about me or my personality.

            This is also not your website so you should be attentive enough to stay on topic don’t you think?

          • Matthew 22:37

            You derail almost every thread you enter serving your agenda.

            How many times have you abused the hospitality of this blog by calling the pastor and other theists lunatics?

            Your own uncourteous, verbally abusive behavior is the key to revealing your sin nature.

            But for some reason you don’t want to master your own sin and act like a gentleman on this blog.

            You should start reading some of your critics. They reveal a lot of truth about a person when he is too weak to be able to examine himself and exert self control over himself.

            Impulsivity…giving in to bad impulses is a symptom of bad behavior and you do it all the time while you deny God’s explanation on the existence of sin.

            If God sent His Son to help the human race achieve a higher plane of existence in this life and the next then what is an error prone human being like yourself doing meddling with His plan?

            You are only sabotaging yourself. Sin likes to sabotage people. The flesh is weak.

            The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

            Keep making those fleshly excuses for your bad behavior though then you can’t aspire to be anything better than you currently are. Certainly not a disciple or a godly person.

          • pud

            Demonstrate that any “god” past or present ever/does exist. If you cannot then you best save your words. Address this and only this or not another word will be sent in reply to you…PS..you and your fellow cult members are indeed lunatics

          • Matthew 22:37

            God can turn a person over to a depraved mind. Prove you aren’t depraved because you seem to act depraved almost every time you post on this blog.

            How does one “prove” something to a depraved person? Are you mentally competent to assess things?

            You already invalidated your own thinking capability in favor of substituting the authority of science for your own mind.

            Then you run around calling believers lunatics and delusional when you had no faith to begin with in your own mind.

            You abdicated using your own mind in favor of science like your own mind wasn’t good enough to make a value judgment on things.

            Keep your lack of confidence in your own mind that you allow to masquerade narcissitically to yourself.

            You are a boundary violator who lacks self control but I will continue to think for myself. I can’t help it that you learned to rationalize away your own weakness and sin. Can I?

            All I can do is think for myself and I think Christians think better than atheists do because their objectives are better. Also their social intelligence is higher.

            If your own mind is not an observational and judgment tool then what good is it?

            You bought into the worldly atheist propaganda the way the Germans bought into Hitler’s Aryan delusion and the way the Russians bought into Marx and Lenin’s atheistic political delusion.

            But there is still time to repent and learn from God.

          • Matthew 22:37

            I think I am finally through discussing religion with unbelievers because I know God loves everyone all the time.

            People are the ones that have trouble comprehending and registering this though.

            There are so many people swollen up with their own opinions that they won’t even listen to God any more.

            I don’t have to worry about a thing. Certainly not your good opinion of me because God is in control through every bump on the road and all the drama.

            Just don’t let someone else set you back with their own drama. People really are insensitive to others at time.

            Time to get back to spending time with God.

            It’s like this atheist said:

            After refusing to debate the Christian apologist Sye Ten Bruggencate, Penn Jillette said, “I’m not trained in debate. It’s turning conversation into competition.”

            Competition doesn’t necessarily arrive at the truth. Soul searching though it can be painful approximates truth much better.

            Competition is just where one person not necessarily right tries to run another person over.

            Have a great life and think on everything.

          • pud

            You should simply try thinking..period..you might enjoy it

            Sye Ten Fruitcake the presupositionalist lunatic! LOL!!

            Say howdy to “god” for me when you and he are spending time together

          • Matthew 22:37

            Your “arguments”:are deflections from dealing with yourself.

            If Hitler had dealt with his abusive childhood, xenophobia and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder from his participation in WWI then we might not have had WWII.

            He was really in love with himself, too and started a cult of personality.

            Instead of examining himself, Hitler resorted to becoming one of the biggest bullies in the world and targeting people particularly religious people like the Jews, Catholic priests and Jehovah Witnesses. Anyone who would stand up to him and his ideological craziness.

            You target Christians the way Hitler targeted anyone who threatened him and his illusions about his own omnipotence.

          • pud

            Here’s the deal…Either address my actual comments and the substance of them or piss off. This is a waste of time. Either prove your claims or piss off. Back up your ridiculous assertions or piss off. I’m not wasting my time on idle banter

          • pud

            The weak minded and easily deceived are the RELIGIOUS! LOL. Anyone who “believes” in invisible and undetectable agents for which there is no real evidence only a story in an ancient text is THE gullible one.

          • Matthew 22:37

            And you’re s psychologically screwed up God hater who enforced spiritual isolation on yourself.

            Prove a Christian is more indoctrinated in false beliefs than an atheist.

            If you weren’t indoctrinated you would not be on this board arguing about religion.

            Everyone in this world has some indoctrination in some belief system to varying degrees and you are no exception to that fact. As your constant behavior demonstrates.

          • pud

            How many times now have I pointed out the flaw in your thinking process?

            To be a “god hater” you have to meet the following criteria….1. There has to be a “god”…demonstrate with evidence that one exists. 2. Which “god” out of the many thousands believed in by crazy people such as yourself? 3. I cannot hate something which I do not believe in and which does not exist. 4. Why wouldn’t anyone “hate” the “god” of your book of fables? He is a murdering, genocidal, vindictive, bully and terrorist. Only a crazy person wouldn’t “hate” such an entity.

            You cannot be indoctrinated into a non belief…duh. Absence of “belief” is not a position it is the absence of something. Every human being is born atheistic. It is the default position. You can only go from this position to something. You cannot go from something to this position.

            I have no “beliefs” whatsoever only certain propositions that I accept tentatively based upon evidence

          • Matthew 22:37

            People are not born atheistic. Read neuroscience expert Justin Barrett’s book “Born Believer” on it.

            3 out of 4 people form insecure attachments in infancy. Read Curt Thompson, M.D. on it in his book “Anatomy of the Soul”.

            Atheism doesn’t stand alone by itself as a belief. A high number of atheists also share in a naturalist philosophy.

            You seem to have lied about reading Bannister’s 6 reasons for why atheism is a positive claim. Or refused to comprehend it.

            The New Atheists are loaded with false logic.

            Too bad you did not debunk their false logic before engaging in your anti-religion diatribe.

            Your logic is lopsided, cherrypicked and pejorative now.

            You probably picked the beliefs that suited your personality but you are a sinner like everyone else.

            Only God is not a sinner so only His worldview has full validity to guide one’s social conduct by.

            I am not identifying with apes. It is mentally regressive.

          • pud

            People..all people..are born WITHOUT beliefs. I couldn’t care less what you your stupid authors of idiotic books write woo woo about. Name one of your lunatics who’s won a nobel prize for proving anything.

            I don’t care what other atheists believe

            Your Bannister diatribe was complete and utter irrational illogical gibberish food for gullible credulous lunatics like you who are hungry for anything by anyone that might confirm their delusional beliefs. You and they are not objective…you are weak kneed frail apologists desperate to cling to your sinking ships.

            Demonstrate that any “god” exists….still waiting

            Demonstrate that “sin” exists…still waiting

            You fable “god” is a “sinner” by your own definition as he murders wholesale.

            You, as a primate, ARE an ape. You are in the exact same classification as monkeys and apes. FACT

          • Matthew 22:37

            Lol. I have an opposing thumb. That does not make me descended from an ape.

            A koala has an opposable thumb, too.

            You are a psychiatric ignoramus who engages in cherry picking and confirmation bias constantly.

            I don’t have to demonstrate God exists because He already demonstrated it and the Bible is His record of the demonstration.

            You are not an authority on anything except yourself and should take your lazy learning habits elsewhere.

            Christianity has tons of examples of people with above average social intelligence as demonstrated by their lives.

            Atheism is a backwards self serving personal ideology.

            Go ahead and serve yourself at other people’s expense. I can’t stop you but I am not taking you seriously myself one bit.

            You went after believers without even examining yourself.

            You already stated on this board that you would like to be in bed with 6 supermodels.
            That already told me how little self control you have.

            No wonder you diatribe. You can’t control yourself so you take everything out on people with more self control than yourself.

            Debate is never as revealing of the truth as simple self examination is.

            You are always busy trying to assert yourself as judge and jury on this blog but you never bothered to examine yourself. Plus your opinions are sloppy.

            There is plenty of genuine scientific research and logic out there that contradicts your assumptions and assertions only you never bother to learn them.

            Why not? Afraid it might burst your narcissistic bubble?

          • pud

            Allow me to DEMONSTRATE exactly how delusional and disingenuous you are….You do not care for truth, reality, evidence or facts..To wit..

            http://humanorigins.si.edu/education/how-do-we-know/how-do-we-know-humans-are-primates

            If you were a student of truth you would ask the question and then investigate the evidence rather than assume a presupposition and do all in your power to validate it in spite of every bit of evidence to the contrary.

            “A” “theism” is the absence of belief in a deity. You are an “A” “theist” to 9999 “gods” I just go one “god” further. It is not an ideology, has no tenants, makes no claims, has no hierarchy, no authorities…it is a blank space, a void, it is the absence of. Not collecting stamps isn’t a hobby is it?

            Any guy who wouldn’t want to be shagging 6 supermodels needs serious help.

          • Matthew 22:37

            Well I am not reading the origins junk because it does not interest me.

            And there are one woman men in this world. I have met some and your lout like judgment of them is ridiculous.

            One of the one woman men I met was a medical doctor. Who are you to say your lack of self control is better than his reasoned loyalty?

            Your mind isn’t very rational if you cannot control a basic sexual urge.

            A person should always be able to put mind over matter but you keep sabotaging that capability in yourself by what you think.

            I want to learn to be weak to temptation and mentally sabotage my own mind like you do?

            Your way of thinking puts the stability and health of the family at risk.

          • pud

            Of course actual science, evidence and proof doesn’t interest you…who would have thought otherwise?

            One woman one man is a social convention. Several of the storybook characters in your stupid book kept harems didn’t they? As I recall there are several characters in your book of fables who held many many wives. Gee…fancy that eh?

          • pud

            No. The “buybull” is a storybook written by men. You “CLAIM” that it is otherwise…prove it. You ASSERT everything but demonstrate NOTHING.

          • Matthew 22:37

            You had better ask for the gift of faith and stop with this non stop prideful striving.

            Christians know things you can never know probably because you severed the bond with God.

            There are things that Christians know and hold in common that can never be explained to you because you are obstinately willful against seeing the truth of God.

            Your attacks on everything related to God and the Bible demonstrate that.

            Since you are in darkness proving to you might be impossible.

            What if God doesn’t want anything proved to you because your attitude sucks?

            Stop being a control freak debater and start trying to learn God’s perspective.

            You are not an insider with God as an unbeliever.

            Insiders always know more than outsiders.

          • pud

            No, you do not KNOW anything…you “believe” ridiculous things, make ridiculous claims, assert absurdities and you do so all without any ACTUAL evidence.

            Demonstrate that any “god” exists…still waiting

          • Matthew 22:37

            God already demonstrated.

            Block.

          • Matthew 22:37

            Dr Barrett claimed anthropologists have found that in some cultures children believe in God even when religious teachings are withheld from them.
            “Children’s normally and naturally developing minds make them prone to believe in divine creation and intelligent design. In contrast, evolution is unnatural for human minds; relatively difficult to believe.”

            Quote above from The Telegraph’s article “Children are born believers in God, academic claims”.

            Check the research. Christians have to grant your assumptions and claims no more than you do their’s or God’s.

            You are arguing promoting propaganda.

            But people can take the extra step and check things for themselves.

            You don’t have more credibility with some people than God, y’know.

            Many of the New Atheist claims and logic are falsifiable.

            It could take more faith to be a New Atheist than a Christian because their logic is so bad.

            Why wouldn’t a New Atheist check the refutations of his logic?

            Either because it never occurred to him to check or because he is biased and does not want to be proven wrong.

          • pud

            The majority of children all have invisible friends that they have tea parties with too. Adults no so much unless you’re religious and haven’t outgrown this infant behavior.

            Demonstrate just one case of “bad” logic put forward by an atheist.

          • Matthew 22:37

            Why can’t they locate and read the refutations themselves?

            I don’t keep a catalog of the errors but there are many people who write books explaining the errors they make.

            Thomas Crean wrote a book correcting Dawkins’ poor logic.

            Revelation is not circular reasoning. God is outside the circle giving revelation so Christian reasoning is not circular.

            Your deliberate attempt to block or dismiss revelation does not mean another person cannot receive it.

            Your misinterpretation of Christian reasoning as circular is erroneous if God exists because God gives the revelation.

            Some people are open to it and some people reject it.

            How does your negative rejection of revelation control it for other people?

            Obviously it is not controlling. Christianity makes new converts every day.

            You keep telling people to prove things but how can one prove anything to someone predisposed to be negatively biased in their hearts against God?

            Out of the heart the mouth speaks and sometimes it reveals self deception.

          • pud

            You think and reason like a child. Claims! Assertions! More claims! Every gullible thing you swallow is nothing but a baseless claim.

            Demonsrate that any “god” ever existed!
            Demonstrate that such a thing as “revelation” exists!

            You KNOW nothing….you are one of the most credulous dysfunctional delusional people I’ve ever encountered

          • pud

            When was your last “revelation”? How do you know it was a “revelation” and not mental illness? Why would any rational person “believe” someone else who CLAIMS to have “revelation”? What would anyone be so willingly gullible to believe some ancient book where some unknown person CLAIMS “revelation”? See how incredibly easily you’re manipulated? How gullible you are?

          • Matthew 22:37

            Some of the best and most trustworthy people that I have ever known were Christians.

            I don’t know too many atheists in real life (most that I know, roughly 400, were through online interactions and some of those people admitted to mental issues and sexuality issues. A few were highly antisocial and liked to troll stalk me with verbal abuse on a regular basis. Of the three I knew personally: all three were addicts of some sort. An addict doesn’t exhibit good behavioral control of himself. One of the three drank himself to death early. Too early to die.

            So I would say self examination is crucial in identifying a personal problem and handling it or taking it to someone who can help one handle it.

            AA or Alcoholics Anonymous is a faith based program that gets results.

          • pud

            Do you know how to read and answer a direct question? Obviously not. AA is bullshit..it does nothing except substitute one addiction for another and rejects personal autonomy in favor of another form of make belief. You know shit. Answer my direct questions or get lost

          • Matthew 22:37

            Well block me then. Because I am not your puppet and will answer as I deem truthful, fit and reasonable.

            I am not debating or following rules of debate.

          • Matthew 22:37

            The idea that people are born blank slates came from Locke and Rousseau.

            Modern science has proven them wrong.

            So what we have with your assertion that babies come into this world as blank slates is your big fat unresearched assumption from which you choose to argue.

            The interplay between genes, nurture and nature is far too complex for the blank slate theory to be right.

          • pud

            I’m beginning to think that you’re just stupid. plain vanilla stupid.

            A “belief” is FORMULATED. It is ARRIVED at via experience and stimulus and interaction with the world. A baby CANNOT have a “belief” since it has NO experience, and no interaction with the world. A “belief” must be instilled or adopted and a newborn cannot adopt anything but a tit in its mouth.

          • Matthew 22:37

            Lol. A baby can hear in utero.

            Plus there are complex genes that come into play.

          • pud

            LOL…Tell me skippy what does it hear? Does it understand language? Concepts? Quantum Mechanics? Hearing noise is not comprehension stupid. Hearing noise underwater doesn’t lead to fetal “beliefs”….are you really this butt stupid?

            Why should you care about genetics when you discount the genetic proofs of evolution and humans being primates specifically apes?

          • a r tompkins

            why is being a human being automatically being a “sinner”? maybe you’re just a human being, fully imperfect, and therefore will make mistakes, and you may have regrets. so what?

            why would gods make humans “human”, thereby guaranteeing that they would make mistakes, then punishing “forever” those same humans, unless of course they begged for forgiveness from those same gods that created them imperfectly?

            According to people like you, the gods opted to develop, out of nothing at all, a system that guarantees eternal torment for countless creatures, when in fact there would have been no “human suffering” if nothing at all had been done. And this, paradoxically, persons like you call an omniscient, omnipotent source of pure love.

          • Matthew 22:37

            I am starting to doubt there is any point to religious discussion on the Net. There are just too many types of personality disorders.

            You never know when you are up against a real question or someone else’s exaggerated paranoid delusion.

            Obviously I am not going to be able to satisfy another person’s paranoia or delusions.

            All I can do is think for myself.

            Look at Ayn Rand. Her philosophy of objectivism is likely rooted in her own narcissistic personality disorder.

          • a r tompkins

            “personality disorders”, “paranoid delusion” … so, do you think people become sick, say from a flu virus, a cancer, a genetic defect, an insect bite, whatever, through no fault of their own? That is, some poor little girl with cancer in the hospital… is that her fault?

          • Matthew 22:37

            I am not sure what your meaning is.

            I dialogued on religion for a really long time on the Net and a good bit of the time the Net seems to be overrun by mean, conscienceless, irresponsible people.

            Why is logic so eulogized by some people?

            Ethics, compassion, good will towards others are every bit as important as logic and probably more important.

            You can use logic for evil purposes if you have no ethics or compassion. That really does nobody any good but the selfish person superficially.

          • a r tompkins

            “I am not sure what your meaning is” … dude, it’s hard to make it simpler: here is a young child who is quite sick, tragically and terminally ill. is it her fault for being sick?

            it’s a simple “yes” or “no”.

          • Matthew 22:37

            Oh the rude dude trying to control a conversation to force his own conclusion.

            Why are you such an egotistical control freak?

            Atheism is so dead minded. So unoriginal in it’s thinking.

            It really is sad how many negative minded thinkers feel they have to control conversations.

            Your question made no sense in the context of the conversation but it does show what a control freak you are.

            I always steer clear of control freaks these days. I know fear is driving some people to control other people and fearful people can be a lot less rational than unfearful ones.

            Maybe that is why the atheist mantra is evidence. If you can’t think and have no imagination yet want to have your way all the time like a child throwing a tantrum that is a recipe for psychological disaster.

            I am putting you on block for being determined to make a nuisance of yourself.

            I don’t debate so why do you try to turn everything into a debate or competition that you attempt to control?

            Debating could be a symptom of overly controlling tendencies in some people.

            3 out of 4 people do not securely attach in their infancy.

            I bet if you psychoanalyzed all atheists then you would find all sorts of attachment issues and problems with authority figures. No wonder so many atheists keep trying to assert themselves as authorities in places where they have not demonstrated themselves to be authorities.

            Xenophobic, narcissistic and anti-social the whole lot of you. Even atheists don’t really trust other atheists. Why should they with such paranoid tendencies. Being so fearful and anxious as their underlying selves are you would think they would doubt their own psyches more. But no they allow their anxieties to catalyze them into becoming bullies.

            I have trouble relating to xenophobic, narcissistic, antisocial deep seated cowards who like to mock and bully as if that is socially acceptable.

            So I will stay a Christian. Staying away from you screwed up people who are unable to think or seek out the truth for yourselves.

            Intellectual self cowardice is the worst.

            You all should have owned up to the fact you are sinners a long time ago but then you couldn’t be an anxiety driven control freak with narcissistic/perfectionistic tendencies any more.

            Have a blessed day! Don’t respond. I will block you later.

            I no longer attempt to convert toxic personality type people which is what the Bible calls reprobates. There is too much self deception to surf.

          • Wow! It was you who refused to answer a r Tompkins and the started taking about “personality disorders” and “paranoid delusions”. And when you were asked to answer the original question, you get in a huff and start calling him an “egotistical control freak”, rather than answer the simple question that you were asked.

            No-one is trying to control you or force you to their point of view, but you seem to take simple questions related to your assertions as an assault on your personality. Are atheists meant to swallow everything you say, gullibly? Are we meant to bow down before you? Are you infallible?

            Your use of abusive language is a disgrace to the Christian religion that you profess. Are you not meant to love your enemies? Are you not meant to be kind towards those that you consider to be “the ungrateful and the wicked”? I have concluded that you are NOT a genuine follower of Jesus from Nazareth in Galilee but your own vile Jesus (created in your own likeness) who supports your abusive language.

          • Matthew 22:37

            You should have thought about genetics more before opening this line of questioning.

            Did you know atheists like to accuse God of genocide when He owns everything by right of creation and intends to resurrect everyone one day?

            Only God is omniscient. Why did God allow so many wars in the Old Testament? The Bible might not disclose everything that God knows.

            What if some of the peoples opposing Israel had reprobated themselves and or carried a gene disastrous for the human race.

            What if God allowed population culling based on behavior.

            Some serial killers have an extra X gene.

            According to many overly literal minded atheists’ reading of the Old Testament God is always at fault.

            But atheists are not divinely omniscient and cannot know what God knows. God reads hearts, God knows the future and God had a plan to put the Messiah down in the midst of people and some of those people had very unholy mindsets.

            Why do you atheists when God is at war with the devil almost always attribute the devil’s nature to God?

            Do you feel good about yourself doing that?

            God could be exercising population control or keeping disease in check or have any number of reasons that we as human beings do not have full access to.

            If you are God are you going to allow evil people access to all your reasoning for doing everything?

            I hope you learn to separate yourself from what could be the unholy human projection of faulty human reason onto God’s character.

            How many times does the Bible have to say God is holy before you give Him credit for it.

            Projection comes from the heart of man and a good person will project good things onto others while an evil person will project his evil onto others.

            I hope you get your heart right with God and stop allowing evil people to guide your thinking.

            Have a blessed day! No response is necessary because too many atheists like to project evil motives onto God and I am sick of reading their blasphemy.

          • Please tell me what little babies could have done to deserve being killed by the sword? And who was the bastard that commanded the execution of the Amalekite children and little babies? Doesn’t the text say ( 1 Samuel 15) Yahweh commanded this? So either your God is worse than the so-called devil or the text is NOT divinely inspired. Could this account have been written by barbaric and bloodthirsty savages who wanted to justify their savagery by saying that this barbaric act was commanded by their God?

            And how can you reconcile such barbaric acts towards children and babies (said to be commanded by Yahweh) with Jesus attitude to little children in the Gospels? How can genocide be reconciled with Jesus’ statement in the Sermon on the Plain (Luke ch.6) that his disciples are to be kind towards the ungrateful and the wicked and to love their enemies with any command to kill them?

          • a r tompkins

            damn – I thought you were blocking me! I am starting to believe in eternal torment.

          • Matthew 22:37

            I’ll block you then.

            I have had enough of unbeliever’s questions.

            Your atheist brother pud said he comes here to this blog to deprogram theists and then attempts to do that by ridicule and controlling the conversation like an uber aggressive narcissist.

            Of couse, he acts like he came to debate. But his stated purpose is deprogramming.

            Where’s his psychiatric credential for doing that?

            How’s that for delusional?

            Bye.

          • a r tompkins

            it’s the simplest of questions: do innocent creatures deserve the kinds of tortuous existence many of them experience in their short lives? Since your belief system seems ill-equipped to help you process even such a simple query, and instead blather on about “extra X genes”, I’d say you need a new belief system, wouldn’t you? Your gods have left you defenseless, confused, uncomprehending. sad for you.

          • Matthew 22:37

            I don’t see the point to the question.

            Animals may not experience tortuous existences.

            To quote the famous animal expert, Bruce Bagemihl, humans are in the dark as to animal experiences.

            IOW, we’re not in animals heads to know what they think.

            D. H. Lawrence’s poem:

            I never saw a wild thing

            sorry for itself.

            A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough

            without ever having felt sorry for itself.

          • a r tompkins

            I believe you are lying – it’s not that you don’t see the point of the question, it’s that you won’t. You won’t because you know either way you answer, your belief in gods is stripped bare to its incongruity and defenselessness.
            If your belief in gods leaves you no alternative but to block people who so easily point out the problems with your beliefs, what does that say about the strength of your arguments?

          • Matthew 22:37

            I don’t care about the strength of arguments. The strength of my faith is more important to me.

            You atheists try to turn faith into an intellectual argument. It’s not. It is a relationship.

            And if you think I am going to kick God out to satisfy a bunch of other people’s constant criticisms, worries, doubts, rage, complaining, faulty finding, neuroses, anxieties, personality disorders, etc. Then you are vastly mistaken.

            I am not fickle enough in my affections do that.

            Have a blessed day!

          • Matthew 22:37

            Jesus calmed the water and I believe Jesus calms the human soul committed to him through the spirit.

            Why would I give up my love, joy, hope and peace of mind to win an argument?

            We can create the storm and opposition to God’s recreative work in us by our own thoughts if they aren’t in agreement with God and know His true nature.

            I am not an apologist any more. I am a soul winner. An evangelist is a soul winner.

            Some music to meditate on:
            https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jIMhshpf0Y4&start_radio=1&list=RDjIMhshpf0Y4

          • Matthew 22:37

            i don’t block people for challenging my beliefs. No one has shook my belief in God yet.

            I block them for bad behavior usually.

          • Matthew 22:37

            I am not an eternal tormentist. I believe in Jesus but believe eternal torment is a false doctrine passed down by Catholicism.

          • a r tompkins

            ah interesting – so you’re a “cafeteria christian”, only believing in the Christ you want to believe in, not the one that is portrayed in the new testament. So, Matthew 22:37, what do you suppose is meant by this passage here (and there are plenty of others): Matthew 13:41/42: The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

          • Matthew 22:37

            I am not a cafeteria Christian. I discovered the translation errors in the Bible that Catholicism helped inculcate in Christianity by insisting on the use of the Latin Vulgate for roughly a thousand years.

            Doctrine doesn’t have to line up with me it has to line up with God’s nature.

            It says God’s mercy is over all His works. There is no passage that says justice reigns co-equal with mercy in God’s nature. Mercy informs justice in God’s nature. God sat on the mercy seat over the Ark of the Covenant.

            Adam and Eve were never told any of their descendants were going to hell. They were warned they would surely die for eating of the Tree of Knowledge.

            People mix up the literal and figurative all the time interpreting the Bible.

            So research it for yourself.

            Why argue from an uninformed opinion.

          • Brien

            You speak the ahmeric, and the greek, and the latin??? and all the ancient languages, including all the linguistic nuances…. Wow!!!

            and we have the actual words of Adam and Eve…?… super-Wow!
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6ee370d836489969031a5419af5d63a722d03453ef69b9fecff2c2b74a08cc25.jpg

          • Brien
          • a r tompkins

            well, it certainly feels like you are eternally tormenting me. But *you* don’t have to tell *me* churches pass down “false doctrine”. All churches deal in false doctrine – that is their stock-in-trade. and it certainly not just the catholics who pedal the eternal torment theme – from the people I’ve known, it’s the dogmatic evangelicals who are most likely to use that tool, and not my catholic acquaintances.

          • Matthew 22:37

            Really? That’s because the evangelicals like to use the literal word to protest against false Catholic doctrines and the significance of word mistranslations is not widely understood.

            It still does not change the fact that the Catholic Augustine instituted the hell fire doctrine when plenty of early Church fathers did not believe in eternal torment.

            Forcing tradition and orthodoxy on people is bound to have long range effects over time.

            Still nowhere in the Bible does it tell people to stop using their own minds.

            The people that want to feel secure but aren’t really are the ones who will call you a heretic which is a word not even found in the Bible.

            If I am afraid of this evil world finding me to be a heretic then how could I use my God given spiritual mind.

            Atheism is stupid because it blocks the formation of the mind of Christ in themselves before they even experience any of the benefits of having it or understanding what those benefits are.

            Continue to pridefully swill around in your atheistic ignorance but don’t expect me to take the trip.

            There is too much coherence in the believing worldview for me to swap it for atheist propaganda.

            More people should know that God loves them. Love is the most powerful force for benevolent peaceful change in the whole world. People are mammals and process many of the most important things relationally.

            How psychologically stunted it is of a human bring to force himself not to form a relationship with the greatest Person in the universe.

            Thank the Lord I am not so self involved as atheist are that I have to reject the good Lord Jesus.

            That is true insanity. Isolating oneself from God. The greatest psychological relationship for spiritual growth that a human being can form.

            I have had enough of the strange personalities in this world unable to relate to God.

            I will stick to Jesus. He’s saner and kinder than you weirded out atheistic people.

            I was a total innocent with no real negative opinion of atheists until they gave it to me with their nonstop trolling and vindictive anti religion obsessions.

            I’d hate to end up as screwed up as most atheists are so I wish you well on getting free of the lies that atheism fosters.

            But I am not talking to you screwed up people any longer. Too many of you are control freaks trying to deconvert me when you never even took a look at yourselves. You atheists aren’t so nice.

            Christians may have let a stupid false eternal torment doctrine get forced on them but that was through a great deception.

            They are still a lot more socially intelligent than atheists and most other groups of people.

            Sorry that you are too narcissistically self involved to notice your own faults but want to take up old grudges against Christians using old history all the time.

            Have a blessed day!

          • I have been reading several of your responses to atheists. You veer way off topic and don’t answer their questions. You appear to want to justify yourself and this seems to be a major reason for your very long-winded replies. If you think that they are trying to control you, then why not ignore their responses? You don’t seem to be capable.

            The topic is “How Christians look at Death.” One point you do raise that is on topic is the Christian Universalist position, which is a minority perspective within the Christian movement. Although it is highly likely that the Latin Vulgate mistranslated the word translated “eternal”, modern NT scholars (Catholic, Eastern orthodox and Protestant) use the now best available Greek manuscripts to translate the NT , and whatever translation errors may have originally crept in no longer apply. Yet there are varying positions on what happens to people after they die. These are partly due different hermeneutical principles being applied.

            If you wish to have a rational discussion with atheists, might I suggest that you desist from using inflammatory language such as “atheist propaganda”, “… you screwed up people”, “… atheist ignorance…”, “… narcissistically self involved…” . You are not doing your Christian position any favours when you inflame the situation. You think that atheists are mean. Some may be, but many are not. When a person uses loose, inflammatory language towards atheists, are they not likely to think that the person using such language is mean? And how does such a mean spirit relate to a God of compassion, healing-mercy and loving- kindness (if such a God exists) ? Didn’t you say in one of your posts that God’s mercies are over all his works? Or is the God you really believe in a meanie?

          • Brien
        • Matthew 22:37

          Antitheism and narcissism: University of Tennessee study

          According to a study conducted by researchers at the University of Tennessee:

          “ If any subset of our non-belief sample fit the “angry, argumentative, dogmatic” stereotype, it is the Anti-Theists. This group scored the highest amongst our other typologies on empirical psychometric measures of anger, autonomy, agreeableness, narcissism, and dogmatism while scoring lowest on measures of positive relations with others.[6]

          • pud

            There is a distinct difference between “atheist” and “anti-theist” hello? So what…? Rational people care more about what is actually true than how others perceive them. The religious all seem to lack security and have a desperate need to be accepted….halmarks of all cults

      • pud

        You have to have the mind of a 5 year old to “believe” the ridiculous nonsense in your absurd ancient book

        • Matthew 22:37

          You are essentially trying to force your narcissistic personality onto others that don’t share in that psychological tendency.

          Gotquestions dot org quote:

          The very essence of all sin is self-determination. By denying the existence of a Creator, atheists can do whatever they please without concern for future judgment or eternal consequences (Matthew 12:36; Romans 14:12; 1 Peter 4:5; Hebrews 4:13). In the twenty-first century, self-worship has become culturally acceptable. Atheism appeals to a generation raised on evolutionary theory and moral relativism. John 3:19 says, “Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.” If human beings are self-created, self-determined, and self-centered, then there is no moral law or lawgiver to whom they must submit. There are no absolutes and no one to whom they are ultimately accountable. By adopting such a mindset, atheists can focus on seeking pleasure in this life alone.
          The attitude is nothing new, but the changing cultural norms are making it more openly acceptable. Romans 1:18–31 details the results of this rejection of God’s authority. Verse 28 says, “God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.” Our world is seeing the results of that depravity. What atheists call “enlightenment,” God calls foolishness. Verses 22–23 say, “Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools.” Since the “fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” (Psalm 111:10; Proverbs 1:7; 9:10), then the denial of the Lord (atheism) is the beginning of foolishness.- end quote

          You love yourself more than you love God or other people, pud, and you demonstrate that fact in your word and actions almost every day on this blog.

          A Christian article entitled Atheism and Narcissism, Never Far Apart states:

          “ Let’s face it, as long as narcissism exists, there will be atheism. Atheism results from the desire to be completely self-reliance – even excluding God (the obvious end consequence of which is ultimately death. It’s inescapable) .
          As an opposite extreme, Christianity is the pursuit of complete reliance and self-denial (the end result being eternal life and a greater purpose in this current life). These two viewpoints are total opposites and can never be reconciled together.

          In my opinion, that’s why atheists hate Christians… because they know that their own life is short and will ultimately be meaningless. [4]

          Quotes above taken from “Atheism and Narcissism” on conservapedia.

          Try inspecting yourself for a change pud. You have no right to personally force change on people different from yourself if your atheistic beliefs are grounded on a personality disorder.

          You need to stop jerking this community around and get yourself examined if you cannot examine yourself honestly.

          Why would I or anyone else allow a person hating on them on a daily basis (like you do) allow them to mold their thoughtlife and personality?

          Do people have to have give up their own personhood and thoughtlife and knuckle under to you so your ego can ascend and be in charge?

          Why should you be in charge when you don’t love anybody but yourself?

          Another quote:

          n his essay The Triumph of the Gospel of Love, Monk Themistocles Adamopoulo wrote:

          “ In variant degrees, it appears from our extant historical evidence, that the early Church genuinely attempted to apply this Gospel of love in its life and witness. How then was it expressed in praxis during the first four centuries of the Church’s existence?
          Christians undertook a great deal of almsgiving to the poor not only to fellow believers but to pagans as well. So amazed was the anti-Christian pagan emperor Julian the Apostate (361-363 AD), with the sheer benevolence and excellence of Christian philanthropy that he was forced to admit in wonder their superiority over paganism in matters of charity:

          “These godless Galileans (ie. Christians) feed not only their own poor but ours: our poor lack our care” (Ep. Sozom. 5:16).
          Widows and orphans in particular became the recipients of special financial support and respect. This created a most favourable impression upon the pagan world. The sick, the infirm and the disabled also became an integral part, wherever possible, of the Church’s obedience to Christ’s commandment to love (Matt 25:35-36). Indeed in times of contagious epidemics raging through the cities of the Mediterranean world, ancient documentary evidence suggests that Christians were more likely to stay on to care and visit the stricken rather than attempt to flee as the pagans were often inclined to do.[5]

    • a r tompkins

      the premise of “God giving ‘itself'” is broken at the outset. after all, god, or the son, or both, or neither (depends on who you talk to) returns to heaven, to be with himself, or to become himself, or itself, or them, whatever, but the point is, Jesus wasn’t really sacrificed in the way a soldier, or fireman, or cop, or other brave random person may give themselves to a cause or to save someone else. Jesus, as the story goes, is right up there with his dad again, so, where’s the big sacrifice? if there really is a god, as according to the religionists, and a heaven, and all that jazz, I would think getting yourself “killed” so you could back there and away from the bronze age goatherders was about the best thing you could do.

      God didn’t “give” anything – it was merely a reluctant loan at best.

      • pud

        Exactly. The whole stupid STORY is absurd, gruesome and ridiculous on so many levels. Good luck getting these religious lunatics to see the simple logic you and I have put forward.

        • a r tompkins

          logic is not a friend to the religionist. one of my religionist acquaintances once asked me, “well, what do you tell your children?” what I thought was “I’m not going to lie to them, if that’s what you mean.” I don’t know if I said it aloud, but I wish I had.

          • pud

            Logic and reason MUST be suspended to be part of a religious cult. All your critical thinking skills must be abandoned in order to buy into ancient mythology and ridiculous nonsense peddled by these clearly delusional people

          • a r tompkins

            yet so many, maybe fewer and fewer percentage-wise, but still, so many are willing to suspend their only truly human tool – reason – to believe in fantasy as if it was a real thing. this will be the undoing of our species.

            it’s not a little ironic that superstition and religion were probably two of the most influential forces that forged crude civilization, but that they are now a threat to that same feature. could this be the “great filter” of Fermi’s paradox?

          • pud

            Interesting thesis. If the born again and the muslims have their way there would be mushroom clouds all over the planet by dinner time…

          • Matthew 22:37

            How come you refuse to examine the atheists that ran cults like Ayn Rand and the Reverend Jim Jones?

            How come you refuse to examine the cult of personality that many atheist dictators engaged in?

            Why do you continuously refuse to inspect the narcissism, xenophobia and antisocial personality traits that these atheist cult leaders exhibited?

            Did you know Rand tried to control the sex lives of some of her followers as the Reverend Jim Jones also did?

            When you seek that much control over others that is a clear social boundary violation. No reasonable person allows another person especially an evil person to control himself or rule his thinking.

            Controlling another person is disrespectful yet Hitler, Stalin and other evil people liked to do this thought control thing and used other manipulation and fear tactics.

            You seem very determined to be controlling pud. Maybe you need a professional to help you with the self examination.

            Winning debates isn’t proof of truth.

            You can have underlying issues that debates don’t reveal motivating you to debate.

          • pud

            You are out of your fucking gourd. Popes launched crusades, Fascists killed Socialists, Europe had 100 years of religious war, Muslims flew planes into buildings, Cowboys killed Indians…has nothing to do with non belief you twit.

          • Matthew 22:37

            Some popes were more than likely non-believers. They even have some popes making atheistic statements. The current pope is a Jesuit socialist. In contrast with earlier popes who deemed socialism and communism as springing from atheism.

            Mature believers are probably more likely to be pacifists than engaging in warfare. Of course not all believers exhibit doctrinal maturity.

            The Bible says God hates violence. Christ was the Prince of Peace.

            Of course, human nature can be manipulated. People attempt to influence others all the time. Some from good motives and some from bad.

            As F. Furman Kearnley wrote:
            Jesus said, “By their fruits you shall know them” (Matthew 6:16). There never has been devised a better test for the validity of anything than the “fruit test.”

            You can study every day common human behavior to determine the quality of people’s actions.

            Deeds are fruits.

            Some deeds are good and some overwhelmingly evil. If someone is exhibiting overwhelmingly evil behavior then how can an honest person say sin does not exist or isn’t present in a person? The denial of deeds exhibiting an evil heart motive is deliberate subterfuge.

  • a r tompkins

    why would anyone expect anything different after death than what “existence” was like before birth?

    Your DNA gets together from a sperm cell and an ovum, the process of construction of a living thing follows if given the right conditions, to many of the “higher” forms of life, a consciousness, a language, is developed, you feed and train a neural network, it is basically what religionists may think of as a “soul”, but it’s just chemistry and energy, and if all goes well, this collection of nervous tissue and associated organs will reproduce, and this individual will die, returning its basic everyday constituents back to the planet, and that’s that!
    why tease yourself with all of this other fantasy about being aware after the nervous tissue has ceased? I don’t get it. it leads directly to cognitive dissonance and other mental malady.

  • Humans know (know being the operative word) nothing about what happens after they die. Religions usually postulate some kind of existence after death but differ on the details about where people go after they die. Some believe in a heaven and a hell but differ on who is going where. Others believe in some kind of survival after death, but none can offer any real empirical evidence.

    There are several Christian views also. Most believe in a heaven for the believers who actually follow Jesus and are ‘born from above’. Some believe that non believers go to hell and burn in a Lake of Fire forever. Others believe that non believers are annihilated (cease to exist) whereas others believe in universal restoration of the whole human race to heaven. These so-called destinies are based on interpretive schema related to the biblical witness to supposed divine revelation.

    Isn’t it more important to live a life of compassion, healing-mercy and loving-kindness now in relationship to oneself and others one meets on their life’s journey, than to be worrying about whether alleged divine stories in so-called holy books are true? If there is no life after death, then living a life of compassion seems to be a worthy goal for this life, at least to some people? If there is life after death, then isn’t it compassion, healing-mercy and loving-kindness that makes a person whole and if a God of kindness exists then why wouldn’t he/she/it welcome such a person into such a God’s presence? If God is not compassionate, then why bother to be a compassionate person if God exists? And, why would anyone wish to be like a god of wrath, vengeance and judgment?

    Now no one really knows whether any god exists or not but the evidence for his/her existence seems very low. Why can’t Christians be honest and say that the main reason most of them believe in God is a subjective personal experience of God? To be honest why can’t they admit that this experience might simply be something going on in their head or heart without their being any external god at all? On the other hand, it might refer to an external being but none of this is evidence for God’s existence.

    As an atheist/agnostic, I wouldn’t mind if Christians were prepared to say that they don’t know whether God exists or not, but that (by faith) they choose to believe that a supreme being exists. It’s when Christians pontificate that they (and only they) have the truth that I object, strongly. Don’t some Christians realise that some Hindus, Muslims and adherents of other religions also claim to have an experience of their god and it is just as real to them as it is to the Christian?

    • a r tompkins

      you seem a little too reasonable for a discussion like this. 🙂

  • Brien

    Who goes to heaven?? Why would there be something after death??

    Only humans??

    and which ‘Humans’?
    The Homo Sapien human?
    or the Homo Erectus?
    the Homo Habilis?
    the Homo Neanderthal???

    They had cognisance and ritual…. so obviously they had the same benefits of your beliefs…?….

    [at which lineage do ‘you’ draw the line….?]

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ceb8f80419172a1d24a722727948692c785ed5c79873dd818d5df6f3352459ae.jpg

    • Matthew 22:37

      The full title of Darwin’s famous treatise is, On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life.

      Surburg has observed:
      Few people realize that Hitler, in bringing about World War II, merely put into practice what he believed was human evolution. Darwin and Nietzsche were the two philosophers studied by the National Socialists in working out the philosophy set forth in Hitler’s Mein Kampf. In this work Hitler asserted that men rose from animals by fighting. It was the contention of the Fuehrer that this struggle, wherein one being feeds on another and the blood of the weaker is the life of the stronger, has continued from time immemorable and must continue until the most highly advanced branch of humanity dominates the whole earth.

      Hitler said:
      The whole of nature” he said, “is a continuous struggle between strength and weakness, an eternal victory of the strong over the weak.

      But Hitler’s philosophy was proven to be a lie and Biblical truth vindicated by Hitler’s defeat in 1945.

      “for by strength shall no man prevail” (1 Samuel 2:9) and “the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong” (Ecclesiastes 9:11).

      Evolution is the foundation for much of the modern militaristic thinking of the 20th century. It was behind wars and crimes by military colonialists in Africa before WWI took place. See what the colonial militarists did in Namibia.

      Survival of the fittest mentality lends itself nicely towards militarism. There’s always some person or group in the world pridefully asserting his supremacy over others.

      The idea that the atheist pud asserts that “respect is earned” is pure bunk. Who is the judge of who to respect?

      Child abuse occurs everyday around the world by people who refuse to respect others.

      Has a child earned the respect of adults?

      Probably not but an adult treats a child respectfully in the best interest of the child. The child doesn’t have to earn respect or prove himself to an adult. Repect is a necessity in the life of every human being and the civilized understand it as such.

      Ask pud “When were love and respect ever not necessities of life?”

      Only bullies and child abusers and other criminally minded individuals go around thinking they have a natural right to disrespect people.

      All people deserve love and respect. Only criminals and the criminally insane deny love and respect isn’t necessary to every human being ever born.

      Ask pud who gets to set the rules on when “respect is earned”. He sets the rules? Is he God?
      Who is he to impose his standards on other people and preempt a basic need that every individual has for love and respect.

      Karl Marx said:
      “Darwin’s book is very important, and serves as a basis in natural science for the class struggle in history.”

      Barzun on Marx:

      “It is that, like Darwin, Marx thought he had discovered the law of development. He saw history in stages, as the Darwinists saw geological strata and successive forms of life…. But there are even finer points of comparison. In keeping with the feelings of the age both Marx and Darwin made struggle the means of development.”

      Atheist Josef Stalin said:

      “The Party cannot be neutral towards religion, and it does conduct anti-religious propaganda against all and every religious prejudice because it stands for science, while religious prejudices run counter to sci- ence, because all religion is something opposite to science. Cases such as recently occurred in America in which Darwinists were prosecuted in court [the Scopes trial—FFK], cannot occur here because the Party carries out a policy of the general defense of science. The Party cannot be neutral towards religious prejudices and it will continue to carry on propaganda against these prejudices…. Have we suppressed the reactionary clergy? Yes, we have. The unfortunate thing is that it has not been completely liquidated.”

      F. Furman Kearley, Ph.d. once said:

      “if evolution is right, if man is just a superior animal, and if there is no absolute standard of morality, who can say Hitler did “wrong” in attempting to build a “master race”?

      • Brien

        Why are you ranting?? Are you having a problem justifying a silly belief in something that you have been told to prove and Cannot do so>>>???

        Btw – try the simple question above – who goes to your heaven?????

        • Brien

          Cannot even deal with a straightforward https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c223cea7ea7298f452074640abfa8c8dcbb90a0c07676a3460573782d850f87b.jpg question about his own beliefs….

        • Matthew 22:37

          I am just tearing down evolutionary propaganda today. What do I care what someone raised on false ideas thinks?

          It is more important to expose the lie then engage in understanding other people’s false logic and thinking.

          If I can’t reach you that’s ok. You can decide to remain mind blocked by propaganda if you want to.

          But there may be others reading this blog learning things.

          I love research. If you won’t look into things then poor logic and propaganda can own your head.

          • Brien

            So – you have no gods; cannot understand science ie evolution etc….

            You are done here….
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9c5eee989464527f2f748706f156188d5307b80264b0c43cc71229007c2a7048.jpg

          • Brien
          • Matthew 22:37

            I am not reading you or care what you say. You come across as another antisocial atheist with a superiority complex.

            I can’t relate to that level of screwed up but I can post my discoveries for lurkers and theists who like to know more facts and perspectives.

            Debating is so limiting. Why submit to people trying to force their narrow erroneous views on me when I can research and acquire more knowledge that gives me a clearer picture of things all by myself.

            I know evolution has appealed to a lot of people with xenophobic, antisocial and selfish narcissistic tendencies. Look at Hitler. He married his evolutionary ideas to politics and let tens of millions of people be killed while he did sick experiments designed at promoting a Master Race as if he were God.

            I am bored with dialoging with atheists. I make more discoveries on my own.

            Why subject myself to your limitations?

          • Brien

            The hypocrisy is stunning!
            The superiority complex of the lying religions is the issue at all times here.

            You consider those who question your lying claims to have a complex???

            and you cannot prove your gods – just childish accusations and deflections??

            You got NOTHING!~!

          • Matthew 22:37

            Lol. Really true? Science changes and revises and corrects itself all the time.

            I know people who work in science that are reluctant to respect it. It has it’s limitations.

            It is a man made methodology, after all.

            Just hope humans don’t drive themselves or this world extinct too early from using science unjudiciously.

            We already invented the atom bomb and used it. Have almost destroyed the oceans with plastic, etc. And every day of the week there is some medical or drug class action suit for side effects because apparently the scientists making the drugs or the doctors performing various procedures didn’t know everything or were not able to control outcomes.

            Keep on holding that delusional faith in science but don’t expect me to. I know science has it’s limitations.

          • Brien

            Why are you deflecting to something that you are ignorant in??!

            Just prove your god (which you obvious cannot and will not even try to do anymore – so you revert to the sciences ?)

            You got Nothing – No gods here…!

          • Matthew 22:37

            Prove atheism isn’t a mental disorder or brain problem.

            Why is it some of you atheists are so lacking in emotional intelligence?

            Google “atheism and brain” on conservapedia and read it.

            Medical researchers are turning up corellations between atheism and autism and atheism and asperger’s syndrome now.

            Why is it so many atheists present themselves like they have superiority complexes devoid of emotional intelligence and some unable to read common every day social cues like Sheldon Cooper on the Big Bang Theory?

            The internet may be the very worst place for you to be indulging your lack of emotional intelligence.

            Why is it atheism is approximately 70 percent male and only 30 percent female.

            Is it because women are better at social/emotional intelligence.

            Christ said to examine yourself.

            I am not on trial. You’re not my judge and jury. I couldn’t care less that you can not follow my reasoning.

            But it seems you can’t.

            So maybe the problem lies within you not me ever think of that?

            Talk to a shrink. A medical condition is usually only diagnosed in person though I read even that may change in the future and be done online.

            Have a blessed day! Bye.

            No need to talk further. I already formed an opinion that you have an unresolved mental problem you like to project on theists.

          • Brien

            NO! It does NOT work that way!!

            You claim the god – we call you a liar!!

            Simple – even for simpletons!!!

            {https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4173112/?fbclid=IwAR3I9qs-NJYyWhtuvAXn4gehdGoBPS-AzZM8efJoti-LDSk6n_qQp5GIpts

            Religious delusions are common and are considered to be particularly difficult to treat.}

            Yep – no gods here….. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5001581bf2cd865b5b8bce90a327f27bd103656a2bd7a5051012153b39ea89f2.jpg

          • Brien
          • Matthew 22:37

            If science can’t explain everything then there is no reason for you to treat it like your god and attempt to force me to bow to it.

            Think about it.

          • Brien

            Why do you try to fob off your inability to understand the sciences while your cannot prove your own gods….

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8e2a1079f9c97749b0af67d5176bed78759cda35629c8327c954b9f95b0ee242.jpg

          • Brien

            and your science degrees are in which of the sciences??

            It is your inability to understand simple facts and data
            (but then that is a result of god beliefs…

            You have no gods….

            You have NOTHING!!

      • Jack Wellman

        Praying for Arthur, Brien, and Pud.

        • Matthew 22:37

          You’re a good man, Pastor!

          I will pray with you. They keep trying to force me to walk in the darkness with them but that could be of their own making.

          They still have the capacity to repent if they can learn the art of self reflection.

          They’ve been deceived into subjecting their spiritual identities to a man made authority: science.

          But people are known to change loyalties from time to time even atheists do sometimes and who knows how many deathbed conversions might occur. Nobody keeps track of them.

          Converting might be one’s very last thought and experience on exiting this world for a whole lot of unbelievers.

          Atheism is just a label. Can a label keep a good man down. I don’t think so.

          The truth seekers will find a way of establishing the truth for themselves using their own minds.

          I have more confidence in my God given mind than the scientific method for determining reality and sorting truth from error but maybe that is not true of everyone.

          If God wanted us to use the scientific method to determine spiritual truth then He would have told us. Instead He provided us with a personal example that transcends multiple disciplines.

          Science is not the only field that uses evidence.

          The law does, too.

          And the Bible uses more legal terminology than it does science terms. I can think of a lot of legal terms but not a single scientific one.

          Have a great day!

  • pud

    I don’t particularly mind engaging you but you are so dysfunctional and disoriented I’ll only do so going forward if you can stick to a single topic. If your verbal diarrhea continues we cannot.

    Intelligence in a baby has NOTHING to do with whether or not a baby can have a worldview, understand concepts, hold beliefs etc. A baby’s genetics have NOTHING to do whether or not a baby can grasp concepts, hold beliefs, have opinions etc. GET IT YET?

    While a baby has the inherent ability to LEARN language it does not inherently understand language or math or science or physics or ANYTHING else. The capacity to learn is NOT knowledge it is ONLY the ability to learn. A baby has abilities but it DOES NOT have any knowledge whatsoever and therefore CANNOT hold “beliefs” from birth

    You have lost this argument as you have all arguments simply because you cannot manage your thought process.

    • Matthew 22:37

      You are back on block because you are mentally blocked and are presenting an unfactual case on babies.

      You should have shut up on this topic and checked the neuroscience on it. Barrett did a study on it.

      He’s the scientist that did the research on it.

      You’re an internet troll with a braggadocio opinion of your own assumptions.

      All your psychology of religion ideas is pure propaganda. The mind is a lot more complex than your atheistic wishful thinking stereotypes make it.