The Christian View of Work

The Christian View of Work February 18, 2019

Work is a good thing, even if it doesn’t feel like it at the time, the Bible shows us that God is still working and our working is God’s will.

Working for God

When I was working my way through college, paying as I went, I remember having some of the most difficult jobs of all. One was a janitorial position at an aircraft manufacturing plant that I worked at for over seven years, and prior to that, I worked as a janitor at a public school as I was completing my college degree for another three years. There I was, ten years in all; moping, cleaning, dumping and hauling trash, and scrubbing toilets and urinals. I remember my beloved wife encouraging me by saying, “Any work that is honest work is worthy of honor.” That was so encouraging. I also remember memorizing Ecclesiastes 9:10 as I gained my new “camel knees.” I kept repeating, “Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.” The Apostle Paul had the correct idea about work, writing, “Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ” (Col 3:23-24). I wasn’t just cleaning toilets for my employer, although that was true; more so, and on a higher plain, I was working for God and doing it “for the Lord and not for men.” I was “serving the Lord Christ,” and not my employer alone. Even though I had to juggle church activities, family, work, homework, and school, I had a new perspective on work, and I believe it helped me persevere for those ten years. Paul’s fitting conclusion is: “whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God” (1 Cor 10:31).

Not Working

The Bible does not have kind things to say to those who can work but choose not to, especially if they have a family. God’s Word says that “if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever” (1 Tim 5:8). Paul also wrote, “Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need” (Eph 4:28). Honest work, whatever it is, is honorable work. Tragically, our society has judged those who are in some jobs as unworthy or unqualified for other work, ignoring the fact that many are in school as they work, while many others cannot find another job, so to look at a person’s job and determine their human value, worth, or social status is to do great injustice to them. Many a shoe clerk has risen to great heights by cleaning toilets and going to school. I believe they make the best managers too, having known what it’s like for the new employee. There are also consequences of work or not working diligently. Scripture says, “Whoever is slack in his work is a brother to him who destroys” (Prov 18:9). This means our lack of work or productivity doesn’t only hurt us, but it hurts others. God ordained work as we read that “the Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and keep it” (Gen 2:15), and this was before the fall, so work is not a result of the curse or the fall. Yes, work became more difficult after the fall, or really, as a result of the fall (Gen 3:17-19), but work was the will of God then, and it is the will of God now. This is particularly true if you have a family. If the Apostle Paul were here today, he “would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat” (2 Thessalonians 3:10). That should tell us what God thinks about work and providing for our families.

God at Work

God is still at work today, but sometimes, He uses us as a means to do His work (Matt 25:35-36). All you can do is “Commit your work to the Lord, and your plans will be established” (Prov 16:3). By committing our work as unto the Lord, we end up doing it for the Lord (Matt 25:40). When Jesus was accused of working on the Sabbath by healing a man, He “answered them, My Father is working until now, and I am working” (John 5:17), but we cannot think for a moment that we are doing works to be saved (Eph 2:8-9). We must remember that we “Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal” (John 6:27). God expected man to keep up the Garden (Gen 2:15), and He expects us to keep working in our own “garden,” wherever that may be and whatever that might include.

Consequences

God can forgive our sins, but we may likely still have to pay for the consequences of our sins. The Proverbs say that “The hand of the diligent will rule, while the slothful will be put to forced labor” (Prov 12:24). Those who are diligent at work will do much better than the slothful or lazy worker because people can see the difference. Remaining a lazy or slothful worker may keep a person in forced labor or hard labor for much of their lives, so indeed, “The soul of the sluggard craves and gets nothing, while the soul of the diligent is richly supplied” (Prov 13:4). It is because of their diligence that their supplies or needs are met. Paul’s instructions to the church at Thessalonica were “to aspire to live quietly, and to mind your own affairs, and to work with your hands, as we instructed you” (1 Thess 4:11). It’s not really your 401-K or Social Security benefits (if it survives) or a company that you’re working for. It is the Lord Himself. His retirement packages infinitely exceed anything that mankind can offer, so “Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ” (Col 3:23-24).

Conclusion

I know a few people who really love their jobs and they feel blessed by God because of it, but even those who work in difficult jobs with low pay and little chance for advancement should realize that they work for God and not primarily a company or person. Solomon understood “that there is nothing better than that a man should rejoice in his work, for that is his lot. Who can bring him to see what will be after him” (Eccl 3:22)? People who look at work like they are doing it for the Lord have a completely different perspective on work, and I believe it helps them endure their jobs just a little easier…even if it’s scrubbing toilets.

Article by Jack Wellman

Jack Wellman is Pastor of the Mulvane Brethren Church in Mulvane Kansas. Jack is a writer at Christian Quotes and also the Senior Writer at What Christians Want To Know whose mission is to equip, encourage, and energize Christians and to address questions about the believer’s daily walk with God and the Bible. You can follow Jack on Google Plus or check out his book Teaching Children the Gospel available on Amazon.

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  • pud

    All powerful, eternal, timeless, omnipotent, omniscient “gods” do not work. “gods” by DEFINITION are not lacking, do not “need” or “want” and therefore cannot have ANY unfulfilled requirements….janitor jack. Further…no “god” “needs” any infinitely inferior being to do his “work” for him or to be employed by said “god” Do you EVER think anything through before you spew? EVER?

    100% irrational babble as usual

    • Matthew 22:37

      Who said “respect is earned?”. Oh yes, pud, did. Do you think you earned any respect by being over here disrespecting people on a daily basis?

      I suggest you sit down and read a book on child abuse and ask yourself why child abusers refuse to respect children. Did the children have to earn the respect of their abusers so the abuse would not take place or is giving respect something sane, civilized people do because it is a necessity in human growth and development and also necessary for human communication and beneficial relationships to form.

      Why would anyone bother reading such an overtly disrespectful person as you?

      How many people have deliberately cut you off because you keep hate mongering them with disrespect like an out of control person on this blog.

      What is so different between your “respect is earned” rationale and the out of control thinking of a child abuser?

      Why do you keep serving your personal logic while ignoring morality?

      Why do you keep expecting me to submit to your logic when you don’t demonstrate morals or act appropriately with other people when subjecting them to verbal abuse repeatedly?

      Were you verbally abused as a child?

      You know what they say. The abused becomes the abuser.

      Who told you “respect is earned” then proceeded to disrespect you? Did you like being disrespected? Does anyone like another person trying to disrespect them?

      Your attemots to debate are attempts to control others, too.

      So why should an out of control, disrespectful person like yourself be submitted to?

      I know you love yourself but you have done nothing to excite such adoration of yourself in me.

      Do you think maybe you have a cluster of negative personality tendencies prompting this disrespectful controlling behavior in yourself?

      Go see a shrink and find out what is making you act so maladaptively on this blog.

      You attempt to submit theists to your amateur psychoanalytics all the time but what about yourself? Why don’t you consult a professional yourself about your overwhelming ego and need to control people that you don’t even know in real life.

      Be sure to tell the psychiatrist that you have been submitting a pastor and other believers to verbal abuse for years now.

      Have a blessed day!

      • Brien

        The abuse is telling children about the lies of gods;
        the unfulfilled promises of heavens;
        the threats of hell for not obeying an imaginary god…!

        https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/cogs.12138

        ”…exposure to religious ideas has a powerful impact on children’s differentiation between reality and fiction, not just for religious stories but also for fantastical stories.”

        Keep the Lies about gods away from children!

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a9d0ba511aef23c14b147e51d5a6aa9f4c1e26c2a335b2cd62c50e5087855de8.jpg

        • Matthew 22:37

          Not all Christians believe in hell. The word “hell” is not in the original texts.

          And the research is in favor of being raised with a belief system.

          If you want to claim religion is child abuse then you will have to prove it.

          Why would anyone choose to focus on hell instead of spiritual victory in Jesus?

          Focus on failure and it produces failure.

          Focus on success and it produces success.

          Jesus Christ is the greatest success of all time. He conquered death. So people desiring victorious spiritual results heed Jesus.

          All you New Atheists do is project your own ideas of spiritual failure onto others trying to control or upset another person’s motivation. Like taking the pic above and putting words in the nun’s mouth. You can’t even read her lips to know what she is saying. You just projected your evil assumptions onto her and attached it to a pic. LOL…how juvenile is that?

          • Brien

            Now let’s tell you a story about a man named Jesus:

            God raped, by proxy, inseminated a virgin named Mary, in order to bring his son incarnate into our world.
            A cowardly action….
            Mary and her fiancee?, Joseph, had to travel to Bethlehem to register for the census. There Mary gave birth to the Son of God.
            God put a star in the sky to guide people to the baby.
            In a dream God told Joseph to take his family to Egypt. Then God stood by and watched as Herod killed thousands and thousands of babies in Israel in an attempt to kill Jesus. (wow!)

            As a man, God’s son claimed that he was God incarnate: “I am the way, the truth and the life,” he said.
            This man performed many miracles. He healed lots of sick people. He turned water into wine. These miracles prove that he is God? Miracles??
            But he was eventually given the death sentence and killed by crucifixion.

            His body was placed in a tomb.
            But three days later, the tomb was empty.
            And the man, alive once again but still with his wounds (so anyone who doubted could see them and touch them), appeared to many people in many places.

            Then he ascended into heaven and now sits at the right hand of God the father almighty, never to be seen again.

            Today you can have a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus.
            You can pray to this man and he will answer your prayers.
            He will cure your diseases, rescue you from emergencies, help you make important business and family decisions, comfort you in times of worry and grief, etc.
            This man will also give you eternal life, and if you are good he has a place for you in heaven after you die.

            The reason we know all this is because, after the man died, four people named Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote accounts of the man’s life. Their written attestations are proof of the veracity of this story.
            This, of course, is the story of Jesus.

            Do you believe this story?

            You are Delusional https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/cd9ab4f45e7471bde3a4fb1a0c6dadae9e91cc22ff83122e285545b847c8688d.jpg

          • Matthew 22:37

            I don’t believe anything you write. Certainly not defamations of God’s character.

            I will stop reading you and responding to you and let you explain to God some day why you engaged in all this truth twisting.

            Fortunately, I can still think for myself in spite of all the amateur attempts at “deprogramming” you and pud and other atheists engage in masquerading behind the deception that you came to debate.

            I know of several Christian psychiatrists. Their grasp of human psychology is a lot better than your’s or pud’s.

            Have a nice day!

          • Brien

            Then STOP reading me and responding….
            You have no gods and you have proven that you have no evidence –
            just silly and childish goodies from your book of fairy tales….
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/265d18a591c3b1e6db6246b4a9b2ca4c1e7759cbeaf70a6c398d1f95a20ec9de.jpg

          • Matthew 22:37

            I just have to point out your inconsistency. If you claim religion is child abuse then you will have to prove it. It is your claim.

            But obviously the experts on this subject don’t agree with you so you can’t prove it.

            Maybe you should move to a blog where you belong where people won’t point out that some of the New Atheists just make emotional appeals and rants with out the weight of evidence on their side.

            I really don’t care what a ranter thinks. It just shows you have an unresolved psychological problem that you attempt to ignore by projecting onto people in other groups different from yourself.

            For a person claiming to believe in evidence you are coming up dramatically short.

            But don’t bother to bring the fake studies. I know you will attempt to find something that supports your bias so you can feel you are right.

            Still you make a lot of claims without the evidence to support you.

            You haven’t got the psych evidence and you haven’t got Darwin’s missing fossils.

            I used to work for an agency handling child abuse cases and the religious agencies assisting in helping abused children and having a benevolent influence is undeniable.

            You New Atheists haven’t a leg to stand on making a religion is child abuse claim. It is just a fallacious appeal to emotion.

            Cya.

          • Brien
          • Matthew 22:37

            BTW, prove you aren’t mentally blocked because unless you can prove that there’s no point in anyone trying to prove God to another person.

            Not that we have to. God already proved himself more than once.

            If you are mentally blocked and God says a person can become depraved because they suppressed a knowledge of Him then there is no point to me proving anything to you cf. Romans 1.

            Jesus told us to examine ourselves. If you can get the beam out of your own eye maybe you can get unblocked.

            If you refuse to take direction from Jesus then there’s no point in me arguing with someone determined to stay blocked is there?

            You already show signs of being blocked by rejecting God’s proof explanation.

          • Brien

            Hilarious – cannot prove his god … keeps saying he will leave … says bye… LEAVE!

            You have nothing but bllsht lies – nothing in the way of any evidence – just crap !!

            Remember this? : P R O V E Y O U R god!

            [it would be easy – IF you had a god } You don’t!!!

            You hav https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5001581bf2cd865b5b8bce90a327f27bd103656a2bd7a5051012153b39ea89f2.jpg e no gods Grow up!!

          • Matthew 22:37

            I don’t have to. God already proved Himself but you were too mentally blocked to receive the information.

            Have you ever seen a video of Dawkins? He reminds me of someone who would have NPD. He is so self satisfied that he oozes self satisfaction.

            The world has DNA organized into a code. That is additional proof that people are not made from randomness.

            Have you seen the video where Dawkins claims something can come from nothing?

            Pick up a copy of The Language of God by Francis Collins and read it.

            I would bet my last dollar that Francis Collins knows more about science and evidence than you ever will.

          • Brien

            Pretty stupid god to not be able to show itself to all equally —
            and again…
            you pathetically try to deflect to a subject that you are too mentally blocked to receive the information.
            Facts in the sciences do not change to suit your blind agenda of silly beliefs….
            (btw – I never claimed to know it all – just to understand science; so why do you attempt to insult about a subject in which you are totally ignorant??~!))

          • Matthew 22:37

            He showed himself through Jesus. Jesus is the image of God.

            Why would God force Himself on anybody when He has all eternity to get things straight.

            But you could miss your spiritual birth. Read John 3.

          • Brien

            No – that is now ludicrous (you only wish it to be true…).

            Your jesus (if he existed and that is not even certain…) still would be no god
            because there are no gods ….

            See how that works yet ??
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c9930f3e16bbce8ce041d48b21d8feda257f16095aa2533eba70fbfb8696d7ad.jpg (and he still tries silly quotes from his book of fables – knowing that it is all BS)

          • Matthew 22:37

            Prove you are mentally sound because inborn sin left unchecked could have diminished your mental capabilities.

            There have been several people who have written books explaining atheists suffer from mental health issues. What if they are clouding your judgment and as time goes on you allow them to cloud and control your judgment even more.

            We reap what we sow and if you sowed a bad thought system in your mind and then became attached to it ahead of God then you may have sabotaged your own spiritual growth without realizing it.

            Now you are acting out on it.

            People were meant to have a relationship with God not teach themselves to turn away from him.

            Look at the ridicule you engage in. It is a symptom of mental illness.

            Sane good people know to treat others with love and respect.

            I hope you seek medical help. Internet rumor has it a large study is coming out showing that OVERT atheism is seriously linked to mental health issues.

            And I hope you don’t take offense at me pointing out that you could suffer from a mental health issue. God already warned everyone about this in Romans 1 but people like to build idols in their own thoughtlives and block Him.

            If He turns you over to a depraved mind and you embrace your depravity as normal then there is nowhere for you to go but downhill is there.

            Then you end up trolling believers on the Internet trying to force your crazy will on them.

            I hope you see the light. If you can’t repent then you need medical help.

            I have more confidence in Jesus than psychiatrists though. Jesus is a natural-spiritual cure. A psychiatrist could just dope you up without resolving your underlying issue.

          • Brien

            Again – starting with another erroneous presumption –

            referring to ‘sin’,
            which is a concept created by men to control and to punish
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0cffc56ff1198f23e0deb8c82bdbac538fc9bc4b4dd1857ee387380973903ab5.jpg when the ‘people’ disobey their man-made commandments and rules….

          • Matthew 22:37

            Nope. Again, I have never met an atheist who could comprehend prophecy.

            So that could be a blocked mind behind that.

            Jesus is mentioned in Isaiah 53. 850 years before he is even born.

            Not everyone is given to understand the scriptures. Jesus spoke in parables so only some could know things.

            And if God didn’t allow you to know things there is no point to you commenting on scriptures.

            Just because everyone can read a Bible does not mean all can interpret it equally well.

            All the atheist scriptural interpretations that I can recall reading appeared to be abominations and I have probably read dozens and dozens of atheists misinterpreting scripture.

            Truly. You are blind on it, perhaps, because you want God to be wrong so you deliberately twist verse meanings.

            Or else you want to mentally assault people who have a better understanding of the scriptures than you do.

            So think about it. Why does God have to defer to a sinner rebelling against Him in his thoughtlife.

            I would never join atheist ranks. I have seen too many of you hating on and insulting theists online.

            It tells me you have internal troubles you refuse to acknowledge.

            You are much too focused on winning arguments and lose yourselves in the process.

            Life is not an intellectual game that you win or lose.

            It is a lot more meaningful than that.

            Have a great day. May be gone any day now. Have other pressing matters to attend to and I can’t make you consult a doctor. Only recommend it.

          • Brien

            No shit Sherlock –
            because
            you have not and cannot prove your god –
            so AGAIN,
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1255f57511860c9767a2e6628fb61c0d0f2cf37171e46561bd54733cb87ad762.jpg your silly claims of ‘prophecies’ have no relevance or meaning….

          • Matthew 22:37

            Well goodbye. I can’t have a conversation with a troll pic can I?

            You probably should start by asking yourself if you have a problem with authority fugures and when your problem with authority figures began.

            There’s this little thing called transference. Did you have an overly authoritarian father who bullied you or tried to control you too much.

            If so you may not be able to distinguish between good and bad authority.

            You could have transferred a bad authority figure experience onto God.

            But you can’t transfer your experience on to me.

            I have my own separate consciousness and judgment to use and your’s does not get to override it however hard you try.

            Bye!

          • Brien

            With all your parroting …. you do not even know that 5 times now – you have said goodbye!!!

            Well do so since all you do is repeat the samold crap over and over ad nauseum…

            (and still looking for personal insult – typical of the losers in the religions when they cannot prove their gods…) https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ac13dc480b929a69353567505ac96fb3324c85a44c8794be824da9b6ea039d00.jpg

          • Matthew 22:37

            Block then.

          • Brien

            Oh no … certainly not!! I am using all this in other posts to show the stubborn stupidity of those who just ignore reality and keep quoting their nonsense from a book of fables as their evidence….

            No – this crap is hilarious – you are the joke here…. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/014d8e935dcf4fe3b9bb0ddf4652ba4ed21c609cac9b6e67e297fc246a740f18.jpg

          • Matthew 22:37

            There is no theological burden of proof, Brien.

            And the philosophical burden is highly debatable. I suggest you make yourself acquainted with some other philosophical explanations and stop parroting the New Atheists to theists.

            Read “Criticism of Atheism” on wikipedia dot org for a summary of some of the different positions.

          • Brien

            Then you have a theological lie ….
            (of course all theologies would say that – why would you use such a brain-dead excuse transparent even to an idiot…?)

            — and again you want to deflect to other mens excuses as your ‘proof’ …?….

            How do people become so stupid…?….

            . https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/68e648f0d11f870b7618f9023655f59bd062dbfae369b98437b85c65abdfce5f.jpg
            There are no gods…!

          • Matthew 22:37

            Those are more valid reasonings then your own.

            Probably because Kenny, Craig, etc. actually use their minds unlike you who merely parrot things you read from New Atheists.

            I will put you back on block now that I see that you are not capable of free thinking and receiving correction.

            If you are a slave to sin then you submitted your thoughtlife to the devil. No wonder you can’t freethink higher about spiritual ideas.

            Bye.

          • Brien

            ‘sin’ is an ….https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0474a7309efc76fdc7c1a1ba48d5398146609ad794d75332726abfa3f2af825a.jpg ……another imaginary threat by the liars of religions —

            Yep – No gods here…..

            (7th time of saying bye … and still here….)

  • Brien

    ”…, the Bible shows us that …”

    The Bible proves that a book – Only – exists;

    Now find proof of a god!!!!

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/78a2d85ce5c70c88345b9122481eb2ec4cf59aa92a77c177969ee1735202035c.jpg

    • Matthew 22:37

      Oh aren’t you one of those mentally delinquent New Atheists who say religion is child abuse while you verbally abuse people different from yourself?

      How is that working out for you?

      I suggest you research into the atheist communist thinking that promotes the destruction of the nuclear family. Some atheist communists thought the state could raise children better than their own families. Hitler had a similar idea. Dawkins almost bought into that idea, too, then got so much negative press that he changed his mind.

      I don’t know why these people think they can replace the nuclear family with the state. The state will never be able to supply enough personal attention and role modeling to the child to adequately meet his needs.

      The history of orphanages document that fact. Orphans may receive physical subsistence in an orphanage but they never receive the emotional support a child could receive in a family.

      Google some of the crazy statements Marx and Engels made desiring the eradication of the family.

      Go read up on Hitler Youth camps.

      Read up on the marriage/family decree made by the the Free Anarchistic Wing of the Saratow Communists.

      The claim that religion is child abuse is a claim of the New Atheists and maybe other people.

      You will have to PROVE that claim and right now the body of evidence is against your claim.

      If you are going to claim religion is child abuse then prove it or shut up.

      And where the heck are Darwin’s missing fossils? We need some hard evidence of that theory of evolution. Do these evolution supporters really think people need to be identifying with apes and using animal behavior to justify moral failure?

      You should investigate how Darrow got Leopold and Loeb free of a death sentence for murdering a child.

      Leopold at trial said:
      “The killing was an experiment. It is just as easy to justify such a death as it is to justify an entomologist in killing a beetle on a pin”.

      Leopold and Loeb bought into the Nietzschean superman myth and Darwin’s theory of evolution.

    • Matthew 22:37

      BTW, Dawkins really isn’t that great a genius. He ripped off semiotics and renamed it memetics as if he had discovered something original but semiotics was around before memetics.

    • Matthew 22:37

      There is no theological burden of proof on me as per the Book of Acts and the philosophical burden is highly disputed.

      You are just parroting New Atheist internet propaganda by rote without thinking or becoming conversant with the different philosophical positions.

      From Criticism of Atheism on Wikipedia dot org:

      The Presumption of Atheism

      Philosopher Antony Garrard Newton Flew Authored The Presumption of Atheism in 1976
      In 1976, atheist philosopher Antony Flew wrote The Presumption of Atheism in which he argued that the question of God’s existence should begin by assuming atheism as the default position. According to Flew, the norm for academic philosophy and public dialogue was at that time for atheists and theists to both share their respective “burdens of proof” for their positions.[18][19] Flew proposed instead that his academic peers redefine “atheism” to bring about these changes:

      What I want to examine is the contention that the debate about the existence of God should properly begin from the presumption of atheism, that the onus of proof must lie upon the theist. The word ‘atheism’, however, has in this contention to be construed unusually. Whereas nowadays the usual meaning of ‘atheist’ in English is ‘someone who asserts that there is no such being as God, I want the word to be understood not positively but negatively… in this interpretation an atheist becomes: not someone who positively asserts the non-existence of God; but someone who is simply not a theist. The introduction of this new interpretation of the word ‘atheism’ may appear to be a piece of perverse Humpty-Dumptyism, going arbitrarily against established common usage. ‘Whyever’, it could be asked, don’t you make it not the presumption of atheism but the presumption of agnosticism?[18]

      — Excerpts from The Presumption of Atheism, Anthony Flew, 1976
      Flew’s proposition saw little acceptance in the 20th century though in the early 21st century Flew’s broader definition of atheism came to be forwarded more commonly.[20][21] In 2007, analytic philosopher William Lane Craig’s described the presumption of atheism as “one of the most commonly proffered justifications of atheism”.[22] In 2010, BBC journalist William Crawley explained that Flew’s presumption of atheism “made the case, now followed by today’s new atheism” arguing that atheism should be the default position.[19][23] In today’s debates, atheists forward the presumption of atheism arguing that atheism is the default position[24][25] with no burden of proof[26][27] and assert that the burden of proof for God’s existence rests solely on the theist.[18][28][29]

      The presumption of atheism has been the subject of criticism by atheists,[30][31] agnostics[32] and theists[33][34] since Flew advanced his position more than 40 years ago.

      Criticism of the presumption of atheism

      The agnostic Analytic Philosopher Anthony Kenny rejected the presumption of atheism on any definition of atheism arguing that “the true default position is neither theism nor atheism, but agnosticism” adding “a claim to knowledge needs to be substantiated, ignorance need only be confessed”.[31]

      Many different definitions may be offered of the word ‘God’. Given this fact, atheism makes a much stronger claim than theism does. The atheist says that no matter what definition you choose, ‘God exists’ is always false. The theist only claims that there is some definition which will make ‘God exists’ true. In my view, neither the stronger nor the weaker claim has been convincingly established”.[35]

      — Excerpt from What I Believe, Anthony Kenny, 2007
      Modal Logician Philosopher Alvin Plantinga is widely regarded as the world’s most important living Christian philosopher
      Modal logician philosopher Alvin Plantinga is viewed as an important contributor to Christian philosophy[36]
      Atheist philosopher Kai Nielsen criticized the presumption of atheism arguing that without an independent concept of rationality or a concept of rationality that atheists and theists can mutually accept, there is no common foundation on which to adjudicate rationality of positions concerning the existence of God. Because the atheist’s conceptualization of “rational” differs from the theist, Nielsen argues, both positions can be rationally justified.[30][31][37]

      Analytic philosopher and modal logician Alvin Plantinga, a theist, rejected the presumption of atheism forwarding a two-part argument. First, he shows that there is no objection to belief in God unless the belief is shown to be false. Second, he argues that belief in God could be rationally warranted if it is a properly basic or foundational belief through an innate human “sense of the divine”.[22] Plantinga argues that if we have the innate knowledge of God which he theorizes as a possibility, we could trust belief in God the same way we trust our cognitive faculties in other similar matters, such as our rational belief that there are other minds beyond our own, something we believe, but for which there can be no evidence. Alvin Plantinga’s argument puts theistic belief an equal evidential footing with atheism even if Flew’s definition of atheism is accepted.[31]

      University of Notre Dame philosopher Ralph McInerny goes further than Plantinga, arguing that belief in God reasonably follows from our observations of the natural order and the law-like character of natural events. McInerny argues that the extent of this natural order is so pervasive as to be almost innate, providing a prima facie argument against atheism. McInerny’s position goes further than Plantinga’s, arguing that theism is evidenced and that the burden of proof rests on the atheist, not on the theist.[31][38]

      Analytic Philosopher William Lane Craig
      Theoretical philosopher William Lane Craig is a well-known critic of atheist philosophies
      William Lane Craig wrote that if Flew’s broader definition of atheism is seen as “merely the absence of belief in God”, atheism “ceases to be a view” and “even infants count as atheists”. For atheism to be a view, Craig adds: “One would still require justification in order to know either that God exists or that He does not exist”.[22] Like the agnostic Anthony Kenny, Craig argues that there is no presumption for atheism because it is distinct from agnosticism:

      [S]uch an alleged presumption is clearly mistaken. For the assertion that “There is no God” is just as much a claim to knowledge as is the assertion that “There is a God.” Therefore, the former assertion requires justification just as the latter does. It is the agnostic who makes no knowledge claim at all with respect to God’s existence.”[39]

      — Excerpt by Definition of Atheism, William Lane Craig, 2007
      Forty years after Flew published The Presumption of Atheism, his proposition remains controversial.

      • Brien

        What you have done to prove your god is …Nothing!

        You claim a god – we all know that there is no logic or common sense to a god;
        the sciences have no need of any gods in Nature.

        Your constant deflections tell all thinking peoples that you do not have any evidence,
        – just the constant references to the one single solitary book for your god
        – Just like a superman comic!

        We don’t much care what obscure definitions, and rhetorical absurdities, that you dredge up by other ‘men’
        …. The fact remains that there are no gods and you have chosen to stay deluded when you know bloody well that you got Nothing…..

        Nothing!!!

        • Matthew 22:37

          I don’t have to prove anything to someone self deceptive and determined to suppress the truth.

          Read Romans 1. God says you knew He existed and suppressed your knowledge of Him.

          But now you have the nerve to demand proof?

          I am not wasting my time proving something to someone like you determined to self deceptively deny the truth to serve your own hidden motivations and sin.

          Sin is destructive and you chose to walk the self destructive path of sin so walk it alone.

          Atheists have higher suicide rates, lower marriage rates and fewer children. That underscores your self destructive philosophy and tendencies. Self destructive tendencies are weakness. So atheism is weak minded. You couldn’t even resist the devil and make him flee. Instead you refused to claim Christ when he ransomed you and make excuses now so you can stay a slave to sin.

          That was your weak minded and weak willed choice. So why not keep your weakness to yourself.

          Goodbye.

          • Brien

            Not a very smart person here – (this is the 6th time she has said goodbye – and does not leave….)

            And still there are no gods… https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5001581bf2cd865b5b8bce90a327f27bd103656a2bd7a5051012153b39ea89f2.jpg
            just the fools who need the belief systems…

          • Matthew 22:37

            I was just correcting your misassumption of burden of proof so you could stop making a nuisance of yourself all over the Net.

            Should have know you were incapable of flexible thinking and not even bothered.

            Why don’t you take your presumption of the burden of proof along with you when you leave.

            You lost on your burden of proof claim.

            Nobody has to accept it because you do. And we have well reasoned reasons for not accepting YOUR learned presumption.

            If you could think then you wouldn’t presume.

            Kenny is right. You atheists have a greater burden of proof than a theist. You are trying to force theists to abandon their closely held beliefs but cannot disprove the existence of God.

            Also you cannot disprove both general and personal revelation so you ought to take a hike with your burdens of proof.

            There is absolutely no reason a theist has to doubt his perception, his value judgments and God’s testimony because you did.

            Have a nice day. Sorry you can’t seem to break out of that propaganda you adopted and really think for a change. God bless anyway.

          • Brien

            Wrong again – you are arrogantly attempting to control the rules, and deflect away from your responsibility of proving your claims – your fraudulent claims!!

            YOU make the claim ,’, therefore YOU show the proof!!!!

            BAsed on all proper rules, and logic [aside from the fact that the sciences have seen zero need of gods in Nature’s processes…!]
            – YOU have no gods!!!
            You have lies about gods – the same lies used for 1000’s of years…. You are lying to yourself (that is your problem), and you are lying to others in the public!!!

            Prove your gods or shut up with the arrogant lies!!!! https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d5a0db39f1b724ca46bfc437042b27f4b39eab19456c6fc0fc2789bc644b6b3b.jpg

          • Matthew 22:37

            How deceptive of you. I never made a claim to you. I have the gift of faith.

            A gift is not a claim and philosophy doesn’t control theology.

            I never made a claim to you at all. You just showed up on this blog demanding proof to make a nuisance out of yourself.

            Christians don’t have to prove a gift to anyone.

            Why don’t you get off this blog no one invited you on here to debate.

            You insisted on shoving your nonsense on people.

            Christians have received revelation from God and are sharing it with those interested.

            They’re not really making a claim to those determined to be against believing.

            Be obstinate and go your own way.

            Nobody asked you to debate.

            The Christian Crier blog says “For Ye That Have Ears to Hear”. That is an invitation for people opened to hear God’s Word not for the obstinately closedminded who do ‘t want to hear to debate.

            You want to debate then get your own blog.

            The Pastor even said he’s not arguing. This is a biblical topic teaching blog.

          • Brien

            What you are is a liar – a proven liar!!! [FAITH IS A LACK OF EVIDENCE (YOU DON’T EVEN MAKE SENSE)

            You claim god!!! Now you deny that you claim a god !!!!

            We are NOT debating (you must have a 12 hour memory as this is all repetitive every day, and you purposely forget your own lies…)

            Just PROVE YOUR GODS!!!!

          • Brien

            Who is this idiot ? – anyone want to download his data…?

          • She’s an elderly woman who used to go under various monikers before she became “Matthew 22:37”. She used to call herself “Cloudnine”, “Glory”, and other titles.

            She’s a Christian universalist. She’s Pentecostal or a Pentecostal sympathiser. She continually waffles on and never answers direct questions. Then when she loses the argument, she puts the person she is arguing with on “block” and says goodbye. Yet she persistently comes back and presents her waffle, repeating it time and time again. She is totally incapable of presenting a clear argument for her position and has no idea how to present evidence scientifically, nor has she any idea how to test hypotheses.

            She continually claims to have private revelations from God and thinks that her delusions are acceptable and that other Christians will swallow her nonsense. She knows that atheists and agnostics will require her to present evidence for her claims so she mine quotes other religious lunatics as if they are evidence supporting her position, without providing any real independent evidence.

          • Brien
          • I am not aware of any personal sites that she has. She cancelled all her entries on this website when she was operating under other monikers, but I can check the ones where she responded to me on this website. I have her entries on email from the Christian Crier.

            She has confessed, (under some monikers including Matthew 22:37) to atheist Bob Seidensticker, that Bob banned her from his website. Bob is very patient with those who disagree with what he has written that she would been persistently very obnoxious before he banned her.

            She has commented on other Patheos Evangelical blogs, but her tone is one in which she gives an air of superiority in her babbling the usual nonsense she blabbers on this website.

          • Brien

            Cheers….

          • Matthew 22:37

            A belief is not a claim. A belief is confidence in someone or something.

            I don’t have to prove a confidence that I hold to someone who is opposed to my holding it.

            But God already provided the evidence. Sorry if you can’t seem to interpret it and refuse to accept it but that is your own personal issue. Why make it mine?

            Before I just wanted to show why some philosophers say the burden of proof is debatable and not automatically on theists as New Atheists insist.

            But all that doesn’t matter. One’s confidence in something is not a claim.

            Do not bother me again, please. I am tired of the subject.

          • Brien
          • Are you telling me that you don’t claim that God exists, you just believe that he does? Are you telling me that you don’t claim that God has revealed himself, you just believe that he has? Are you telling me that you don’t claim that Jesus is the Son of God, you just believe that he is? Are you telling me that you don’t claim that the bible is the Word of God, you just believe that it is ? Does believing make any of these things that you believe true? How do you distinguish your beliefs from wishful thinking?

          • Matthew 22:37

            Arthur you know better than this if you think about it.

            Claim is not a word used in the Bible. It is a word the philosophers use to debate and challenge people seeking access into other people’s thoughtlives.

            Some people are still under the devil’s control because they didn’t accept Jesus or oppose sin in themselves and others.

            Why would a Christian submit to the devil through vain philosophical reasoning when he can sit at God’s knee in the Bible learning God’s ways, promises and will for his life?

            Professional apologists have a thorough belief and grounding in God’s Word and an awareness of Satan’s tactics before they venture out into these crazy philosophical arguments and confusion that the devil likes to prompt in people who refused to be loyal to Jesus Christ.

            But a lot of people in this world don’t have that theological knowledge. So they venture out into the deep and treacherous waters of philosophy where the devil can more easily deceive them and they in turn try to deceive people for the devil not knowing that they themselves are under his power and have been deceived.

            God doesn’t allow the devil to speak much in the Bible. The devil is a liar and the devil is always working through human beings sinful flesh nature trying to deceive us. To get us to concede to him and the more unknowingly we do that the better for him.

            God does not deny people anything they need but the devil likes to appeal to our sinful natures so after a while we can’t make godly decisions and keep ourselves from sinning.

            Christians believe. We don’t claim. We believe and go onto obtain a greater spiritual and existential knowledge of God and His nature and ways from the Bible. We form a relationship with Him. We are adopted by Him and become His children in word and in deed by working His will in this world.

            That is a total life change. That is not a claim.

            Go on letting sin rule you thinking you are fit to dispute with a Christian.

            But no one who refuses to honor God and perform His will is fit to dispute with a person who will.

            The person who will do God’s will is the brother or sister of Christ as Christ said.

            You think you can reverse the actual reality of another person living for God and performing His will by playing trumped up intellectual games that appeal to your sinful ego?

            You are just caught in a trap and can’t figure it out.

            Why would I play at philosophy or use it’s worldly terms when I can use God’s in the Bible.

            I am about done reasoning with evilminded people determined to stay evil who twist things and refuse to see God’s perspective so they can stay slaves to sin.

            That is the reality. Atheists are slaves to sin and too blind and callous to realize it though God spells it out in no uncertain terms in the Bible.

            So what do you do? You pick up the filthy term twisting and obfuscation ways of a lot of pagan philosophers and I am suppose to be impressed by your thinking.

            You are deceived, disloyal to God and surrendered your reasoning capability and life to the devil.

            Then people like pud have the nerve to call Christians a coward.

            Christ came to set you free. The battle to set you free begins in your own mind.

            Some people are going to be suborned and rebel against God so they can stay in their sin.

            And some people are going to get as free of sin as humanly possible by turning their hearts, minds and wills over to God and letting Him do something about it through them.

            Don’t argue with me using worldy philosophical deception and distortions. Lies are cowardly though they do cause a lot of mischief and damage in people’s lives while they let them skulk around.

            The truth is brave and that is why the Bible is all about God and Jesus while Satan is a bit player skulking in the shadows at work in the darkness.

            This is all I have to say. Why play deceptive philosophical games allowing people to continue puffed up in their ignorant intellectual vanity and pride when you can tell the simple truth which is superior to anything this world or philosophy comes upmwith.

            Philosophical twistedness is not brilliance.

            People know brilliance is in simple clarity and being able to tell the truth so a 6th grader can understand you.

            The devil likes to make things complicated so he can deceive people so he hangs out in philosophy waiting to get the weak minded and weak willed and unwary.

            Have a good day.

            Why debate when you can avoid all the obfuscation by telling the simple truth? The Gospel is the life saving, life changing truth from God and has been since the advent of Christ.

            Of course, the devil is going to challenge his existence. That’s how he keeps people his slaves.

          • Granted that the word ‘claim’ is not used in the bible does not mean that the bible doesn’t make claims. A claim is to state or assert something without providing any evidence or proof. The bible asserts that God exists but doesn’t provide any convincing evidence for that claim. You continually state or assert many things for which you offer no evidence or proof, so you are making claims but seem to be in denial by claiming that these are only beliefs.

          • Matthew 22:37

            God has provided general revelation as proof. Why should science get to change God’s proof standard?

            Wiki on General revelation:

            In theology, general revelation, or natural revelation, refers to knowledge about God and spiritual matters, discovered through natural means, such as observation of nature (the physical universe), philosophy and reasoning. Christian theologians use the term to describe knowledge of God purported to be plainly available to all mankind. General revelation is usually understood to pertain to outward temporal events that are experienced within the world or the physical universe. The definition may be extended to include human conscience or providence or providential history.

            General revelation is a form of revelation that gives knowledge through experience or records of history, creation, and innate conscience.[1] Christian theologians cite biblical references to support general revelation: Romans 1:20, Psalms 19:1-6, and Matthew 5:45. General revelation shows the works and existence of God in indirect ways.

            General revelation is experienced through:

            Physical Universe – The laws and nature of the physical universe as it transpires are interpreted as displaying God’s attributes of existence, knowledge, wisdom, power, order, greatness, supremacy, righteousness, and goodness.

            Human Conscience – God has instilled the innate ability in all persons to discern the difference between right and wrong, to choose and act on that discernment and judgment according to free will and conscience, and to experience guilt when the act or choice is wrong. One of the arguments for the existence of God is based on the moral sense in humans.

            Providence refers to the sustaining power of God. Providence is defined as “divine providence; proceeding from divine direction or superintendence; as the providential contrivance of things; as a providential escape from danger.”[2]

            General revelation is understood as the everyday experience of life, but is solely dependent on interpretation of those experiences as comprehending God’s hand in external events or things.

            General revelation is distinguished from special revelation and direct revelation. The former refers to the knowledge of God and spiritual matters which can be discovered through supernatural means, such as scripture or miracles, and the latter refers to direct communication from God to a person.

            From Romans 1, NASB

            18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth [l]in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident [m]within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

            Now if you are open to revelation from God read “God Prophetically Named the Stars” available online by Dr. Stephen E. Jones.

            The Gospel is actually told in the stars as Psalm 19 tells us. The stars provide evidence and no man can tinker with or destroy that evidence and the Second Law of Thermodynamics can’t destroy that evidence either.

            The Works and the Word of God.
            For the choir director. A Psalm of David.

            19 The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
            And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
            2 Day to day pours forth speech,
            And night to night reveals knowledge.
            3 There is no speech, nor are there words;
            Their voice is not heard.
            4 Their [a]line has gone out through all the earth,
            And their utterances to the end of the world.
            In them He has placed a tent for the sun,
            5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber;
            It rejoices as a strong man to run his course.
            6 Its rising is from [b]one end of the heavens,
            And its circuit to the [c]other end of them;
            And there is nothing hidden from its heat.

            I would be very careful what ideas you allow to be sown in your heart some of them could upset your ability to form a relationship with God and if God exists no person has the right to meddle carelessly with another person’s relationships, life, blessings and future.

            People could be a lot more sensitive to having their hearts and minds upset or destroyed than they think they are.

            So I no longer listen to just anyone on spiritual matters. God gave me a mind to sort truth from error. Not so some careless person could come along snd wreck it with substandard ideas.

            I never submitted my mind to the authority of science. I am an independent thinker and only acknowledge God as the highest authority.

            And no one is going to debate me or peer pressure me into giving up my common sense.

            I made up my mind a long, long time ago.

            Faith is by hearing. That’s God’s standard if the world is foolish enough to substitute some other standard then they will have to deal with the consequences of that later.

            I really do not care what other conclusion someone arrived at since I arrived at quite a bit on my own in conjunction with God’s revelation, of course.

            I used my own observations, judgment, imagination and common sense in conjunction with the Bible thinking for myself and am satisfied with the conclusion that I drew.

            I never made an idol out of science either. Why should I? Science has no authority in the metaphysical realm. I learned that from the agnostic evolutionist Stephen Gould. He knew science was exceeding it’s scientific authority limitations intimating God did not exist and said people should be aware of non-overlapping magisteria.

            I hope this helps.

          • General revelation (if it exists) is not a proof provided by God of God’s existence. This presupposes the existence of God and quoting the bible to support the concept of general revelation presupposes the existence of special revelation, namely the so-called Christian revelation of the OT and NT.

            If general revelation exists why does it not point to Allah being the Creator of the universe? Couldn’t the Muslim argue the same way that you have argued but use the special revelation of Allah recorded in the Koran to presuppose the existence of their God, Allah?

            So the claim to general revelation is very ambiguous and in no way indicates the existence of God unless you assume a specific form of special revelation? Asserting that God exists and that he has revealed himself through Holy Scripture which affirms general revelation in no way PROVES that general revelation exists or that God exists.

            Wouldn’t you be better off saying that you don’t really know whether God exists or not but, by faith, you believe that he does and you base your life on this belief. You don’t have any evidence for your claim.

          • Matthew 22:37

            I know God exists but I am not arguing about it any more.

            I no longer see the point to arguing when a person is free to seek on his own.

            Your mind may not process things the same way as mine does to arrive at the same conclusion but you can seek God in your own way.

            Raising objections trying to disprove another person’s beliefs isn’t seeking.

            I learned alot when I started asking questions and getting my own answers.

            But you cannot repeat my experience. You can only get your own unless you let this world de-motivate you and stay passive. Work out your own faith with fear and trembling.

            https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/faithencouraged/2017/10/work-out-your-own-salvation-2/

          • You don’t know that God exists. You merely believe that your so-called God exists. How do you know that he exists? Is it a warm inner glow that you receive when you claim to talk to Jesus? This is a subjective inner experience and in now way indicates objective knowledge. Did you know that the Buddhist receives a warm inner glow from their experience? Similarly with the Hindu and some Muslims. Which experience is valid and why?

          • Matthew 22:37

            Scientific proof is a myth.

            Einstein said:

            The scientific theorist is not to be envied. For Nature, or more precisely experiment, is an inexorable and not very friendly judge of his work. It never says “Yes” to a theory. In the most favorable cases it says “Maybe,” and in the great majority of cases simply “No.” If an experiment agrees with a theory it means for the latter “Maybe,” and if it does not agree it means “No.” Probably every theory will someday experience its “No”—most theories, soon after conception.

            Google “Scientific Truth Is A Myth” by Ethan Siegel on Forbes dot com.

            I always tell atheists science changes all the time but God is changeless so how do you use an authority on materialism that changes all the time against God?

            But they always ignore that.

            I am sorry you New Atheists don’t have the imagination to realize all the theories you use to oppose the existence of God could all be overturned one day yet believers will still be believing in God.

            Don’t bother responding. Think about it long and hard.

          • Brien

            You have proven to all your ignorance of common knowledge and elementary learning!!!
            You have deluded yourself past that which would be psychologically acceptable for normal behaviour and thought processes.

            We have found your background and your unstable history. You are a known liar, and you are being treated as the fool that you express to all.

            Btw, there are only ‘atheists’ – there is nothing ‘new’ to not believing the lies about imaginary gods.

            Don’t bother responding. Think about it long and hard. (and get medical help…)

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0c0e726f765d4edabdb2b46a49c741e6001f9fcc451fe79373999eb7cf769175.jpg

          • Matthew 22:37

            You are a really rude dude and I find the way you express your worldview offensive so have a nice day. I will put you back on blog.

            I may not know everything but I know better than to submit to a bad mannered person’s childish attempts at bullying.

            Get Goleman’s book on social intelligence.

            You seriously need to learn what it is and receive lessons in it.

            I hope you see the light some day.

          • Brien

            Wrong again – you are proven deluded
            – Proven selfish
            – and proven a liar!!!!

            Your arrogance is rude!
            Your lies are rude!!!

            Your religions are doing the bullying – you have twisted all things to suit your twisted agenda!!!

            Prove your gods or shut up!!!

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d5a0db39f1b724ca46bfc437042b27f4b39eab19456c6fc0fc2789bc644b6b3b.jpg

          • Matthew 22:37

            It is very important as a person that you are socially accepted and well liked and Christianity is better at producing those better socially adjusted people than atheism is.

            I even know of Christians who claim God cured them of mental afflictions and helped them kick addictions.

            I will take a person with God’s morals over a moral relativist any day of the week because you probably are more likely not to be able to count on the moral relativist in a difficult situation or times.

            And screaming about “evidence” is not going to change me. I always prefer socially intelligent people to almost any other kind of person.

            Thank God that He has been at work in this world for some time now producing more socially intelligent people because that makes this world more fit to live in.

            Why do you think atheists like Voltaire would hate to see Christianity over turned. He knew it, too. Morality makes the world a more civilized and better place to live.

            It’s the immoral people who are always hating on and persecuting Christians ruled by their baser passions. Sin is the slave master and without Jesus you will always be a rude dude acting in a socially unacceptable manner.

            I hope this helps. God bless!

            I don’t go around calling atheists cowards like pud does or liars like you do unless you provoke me over and over again THEN I will show you the error of your ways.

            You know you are a part of this world and could have just accepted Jesus. It was the socially intelligent thing to then let God raise you but instead you allowed yourself to get stubborn in your sin so now you have the nerve to try and intellectually steam roll me but you’re the big loser in all this because a relationship with God would have improved your social intelligence and you would fit in to society much better.

            Think about it. Have a blessed day!

          • Brien

            The error of your ways – aside from the usual arrogance of the ‘believers’ – is that you are the liar here – Known liar, as you and we all know that you cannot prove any gods.

            Have your social affairs as your excuse to be part of the sheeples – but it does not alter the facts – You have no gods!!@!!

          • Matthew 22:37

            You really are a rude person to call someone a liar on so little acquaintance.

            I am going to put you down as some attention seeking troll and put you back on block.

          • Brien

            Again – backwards – your constant lies are what are rude!!

            You are told to prove your god – You Cannot!!
            That – in and of itself makes you a liar if you claim your imaginary god – WITHOUT proof!!

            Yes – you are a ‘proven’ liar (whether you like it or not)

            Block away – lalalalalala…..

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0474a7309efc76fdc7c1a1ba48d5398146609ad794d75332726abfa3f2af825a.jpg … and another liar in this Mary tale….

          • You are making claims, in spite of you saying that you have received the gift of faith. You claim to have received revelation from God, yet you provide no evidence for this claim. This claim presupposes that God exists. Again you provide no evidence.

          • Atheists are not required to disprove the existence of God. How can you disprove the existence of invisible, non-detectable, alleged beings? Can you disprove the existence of fairies, gnomes, leprechauns, and unicorns? If someone claims that such beings exist, would you spend time trying to disprove their existence? Wouldn’t you rather ask such persons to provide evidence for their positive claims? So why does an atheist or an agnostic have to disprove the existence of any god? Isn’t the burden of proof on the one making the positive claim to present evidence for such a claim?

  • Shouldn’t the title of your article be “A Christian View of Work” rather than “The Christian View of Work”? Understanding the bible has led Christians today to over 40,000 different denominations each differing in many points of Christian theology, Christian ethics, praxis and biblical hermeneutics. It seems futile to pretend that there is one Christian view on any topic. That your view has the support of many Christians doesn’t necessarily mean that it is “The” Christian view. Maybe you didn’t mean it to come across that way.

    Your view is based on a historical grammatical understanding of the bible; the view that God exists and that God has revealed God’s self through the biblical witness to Jesus and that the story of Jesus is largely factual. If God doesn’t exist or if he exists but has revealed himself differently than through the biblical witness, then a Christian view of work would not be necessary to explain work.

  • Matthew 22:37

    Oh look I was “detected as spam” again. It seems somebody on this blog doesn’t like freedom of speech for Christians on their own Christian blog and are trying to silence me.

    Here is the post again:

    Matthew 22:37 Brien 2 minutes ago
    Detected as spam Thanks, we’ll work on getting this corrected.
    If you cannot prove your atheist claims to everyone’s satisfaction then you could be engaging in propaganda.
    All you have been doing is throwing up pictures claiming theists are mentally unstable, religion is child abuse, etc.
    Yet you have not proven your own mental competence to make such claims.
    That is why New Atheism is propaganda. Propaganda is where you tell a lie over and over until the public starts to accept it as true.
    Dawkins claims religion is child abuse but he did not check the research on it before making his claim and going public with it in his book. If he did check the research on it his prejudice/bias might cause him to dismiss the truth of the evidence or downplay the quality of the evidence.
    When people are a complex intermix of genes, nature and nurture how does Dawkins let himself get away with dismissing what the social scientists have to say?
    Dawkins will have to PROVE his claim that religion is child abuse or else he sowed a lie on people as a fact in his book The God Delusion. When really he only stated his antireligion bias and those similarly biased will agree with him but where is the evidence?
    Dawkins doesn’t have any evidence. He’s an evolutionary biologist not a social scientist or psychiatrist.
    So why debate an atheist’s unresearched bias. He already indicated he forefeited his perception in favor of other people’s scientific method and conjectures.
    Why would I exchange God’s perspective for a man made bias? A lot of men run around acting like they think they are God it does not make them such.
    Hitler acted like he thought he was god. So did Mao and Lenin and Stalin and Pol Pot, etc.
    How much did Hitler prove to the Germans before getting them to accept his claims about Aryanism?
    How much did Lenin prove before starting the Russian Revolution?
    People act foolishly on propaganda all the time in this world.
    I will stick to God. He produces better behavior in the people who are actually committed to Him.
    All most atheists have done in my visiting so many blogs and forums dialoging with them is convince me of their own immorality by their rude behavior.
    That religion is child abuse is a claim and an atheist by his own own logic has to prove a positive claim otherwise he is spewing prejudice and propaganda.
    Don’t be a victim of propaganda. Learn to check the record for yourself before accepting other people’s biases masquerading as the truth. Especially when they are attempting to tear your world and worldview down so they can dominate and control you.

    • Brien

      It is spam ! It is proselytising and ranting and you have yet to prove your claim of a god!

      [simple – even for simpletons]

      • Brien

        Why do you constantly refer to very old and obsolete beginning ideas on the natural sciences – especially as you are not educated in them…?
        Yep – Spam is all you have!!

        Prove your god and all this goes away!!!

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9c5eee989464527f2f748706f156188d5307b80264b0c43cc71229007c2a7048.jpg

        • Matthew 22:37

          I have just named your logical fallacy in this post the authority fallacy.

          I think you have limited your own mental abilities by submiiting to a false authority.

          Remember Haman trying to force Mordecai to bow to him like he was God?

          A lot of the world likes to try to force people to surrrender their thinking capabilities and bow to their false gods. In your case you made science your god and are trying to mock/browbeat me into submitting to your false god.

          But I am a bit stubborn like Mordecai. I never bow to other people’s gods who don’t know God yet act like false ideas or other things are their gods.

          In your case I think you surrendered your mind to a false idol and now your thinking and emotional intelligence is compromised.

          Who cares if my mind is not despoiled by the manmade theory of evolution. Evolution is not even a perfect theory. It has been revised numerous times.

          My God given IQ is quite high. Maybe higher than your’s and I was not deceived into making a false idol out of science.

          You may have been deceived by the world into blinding your own mind to truth.

          But I am harder to deceive.

          Don’t bother responding. I know you have allowed sin to reign unopposed in your thoughtlife and that is bound to have wreaked all kind of damage.

          The unbelieving carnal people can never understand the greater spiritual truths.

          Your loss, I am sorry.

          Hope you repent some day. We all reap what we sow and you let the world sow a false science idol on you (into your head) and have now reaped spiritual blindness and all you can do is act nasty and seek out people where you adhominem attack them.

          Your own nastiness ought to be a red flag to you that sin exists and is operational within you. Without any willful opposition by yourself at all. You just gave yourself away to sin and want to pretend you are saner than a Christian is.

          Brien the delusion is all yours.

          You let science sow a false doctrinal adherence to it in you.

          Well science is limited but nothing is impossible with God.

          You have limited your own mind and mental capability it seems.

          I went the God route. Nobody outranks God in my thoughtlife. Thanks be to God.

          Hope you see the light some day. All that darkness your mind is in could be making you nasty tempered.

          Mockery is civilized behavior? No, it is borderline insanity.

          It’s a sign of a lack of sensitivity and social intelligence.

          You let Satan reverse you into mental beasthood.

          Didn’t you know? The mind is the main battlefield that both God and the devil work through.

          Sorry you are deceived into worshipping yourself and your false god science.

          Look on the brightside. You can always humble yourself and repent or ask God for the help to do so if your pride is too great.

          What a burden intellectual pride is.

          I’d rather be humble and intellectually free.

          • Brien

            Yep, y’all jest kip etin’ them thar smart pills….

            ”ah done sayd that thar is uh gawd – so that thar’s ma pruf…”.
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d5a0db39f1b724ca46bfc437042b27f4b39eab19456c6fc0fc2789bc644b6b3b.jpg

          • Matthew 22:37

            Like I said. God can turn you over to a depraved mind.

            Seriously, you are daft enough to dictate terms to God.

            I just cannot take you seriously any more.

            If you get free of the propaganda and come to your senses try seeking and following God’s rules for a change.

            You’re not God’s equal though you seem to be crazily acting like you are His superior.

            Did the devil make you do it?

            Have a blessed day. Bye!

          • “I’d rather be humble and intellectually free.”

            Does your rejection of the theory of evolution as the best scientific theory accounting for the known biological data indicate humility or an arrogance towards science?

            Does your talk about the “false god of science” indicate your lack of respect for scientific theories, your disdain for empirical evidence, hypothesis testing, conditional predictions, and the probability of making type 1 errors and indicate your lack of humility, and you intellectual imprisonment?

      • Matthew 22:37

        I think you are incapable of assessing the proof.

        Research the Bible for why.

        Outta here. Bye.

        • Brien

          Bye…!

          The Bible is a compendium of fire side tales and fables,

          recounted orally for generations by goat herders and primitive tribes from the stone age, until writing was invented,

          and then again many different sources, transliterations, and versions were copied and written down.

          There were no grand central universities to organise the many various versions of these origin/creation stories, stories common to most primitive cultures.
          They were for entertainment (as in all migratory camp tribes),
          and to answer the questions of the many fears and mysteries of our universe, like ‘thunder’ and earthquakes, since there was no science yet.

          This is the old Testament.

          The ‘new’ Testes is also hearsay since these letters, ‘gospels’ and stories were written by the loyal faithful, the camp followers,
          not by objective historians at that particular time,
          or by any contemporary writers,
          and these tales were written many years after the supposed events of this mythical Jesus.

          Thus, there is no verifiable evidence of a Jesus in real documented history.

          Then, many of these stories, but not all, as many were not chosen,
          [ There are more than just four Gospels but only these four were agreed on ],
          were compiled for one self-absorbed converted Roman Emperor in his Nicean Council,
          for his expressed purpose of conquest and
          control of the people of Europe for his Holy Roman Empire.
          He recognised that this was the perfect religion/mythology for the future domination of the populaces.

          Half of the stories were ignored by the Nicean Bishops and none have been proven to be based on fact.

          This ‘Bable’ book is backed up by absolutely no facts and no evidence.
          It is not proof for any god(s) ….(or of any jesus…)

          It is a historical novel…Only!

          The Bible is proof of a book ONLY (certainly not evidence of any gods…)
          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d100bad5e8ccc18cabc0d21be6083bf999840bc529b0cac7c307f8967270a4f6.jpg

          • Matthew 22:37

            Lol. I know things you don’t. I ask questions and actually seek to know more and more because I know I can never learn it all.

            An honest scientist admits there is more to know than we can ever know.
            He doesn’t assert an illegal authority of science over the metaphysical to rule out the existence of God like most atheists do.

            You are arrogant though Brien and assert things that you cannot prove.

            If you had any humility you would admit science does not know everything and put away this arrogant pretense that it explains everything. When it only explains SOME NOT ALL material things and has no explanation for the metaphysical.

            Frederick A. Filby, professor of Chemistry and author of Creation Revealed. wrote:

            “The sciences which probe most deeply into the ultimate facts of matter and life are probably astro- and modern physics and biochemistry. But these sciences are written, not so much in language as in symbols. It takes many pages of symbols to discuss the nature of a single atom of hydrogen. It has been estimated that to give a complete account of the position of the group and bonds in a single virus of molecular weight 300 million would take a 200 page book.

            If the scientific description of a single hydrogen atom, or of a virus too small to be seen without a microscope, takes a book, what hope is there of ever giving a scientific account of the creation of man and the universe?

            “Yet Genesis 1…uses only 76 different root words. If Genesis 1 were written in absolute scientific language to give an account of creation, there is no man alive, nor ever has there been, who could understand it.

          • Brien

            Damn…! How many times are you going to resurrect yourself after saying Bye…?

            All you have to do is to prove the god that you claim and then all this goes away…

            Why do you keep replying when the request is quite simple…?

          • Brien

            but those with a sense of humour must be loving how deep you have to go to find all these extraordinary excuses to evade and avoid … https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d5a0db39f1b724ca46bfc437042b27f4b39eab19456c6fc0fc2789bc644b6b3b.jpg

          • Matthew 22:37

            Why do you think you get to make demands?

            God said to be a seeker.

            What reward do you get if I do all the work and prove Him?

            Try doing things on His terms for a change and see what happens.

          • Brien

            Yep, y’all jest kip etin’ them thar smart pills….

            ”ah done sayd that thar is uh gawd – so that thar’s ma pruf…”.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5001581bf2cd865b5b8bce90a327f27bd103656a2bd7a5051012153b39ea89f2.jpg

          • Matthew 22:37

            Forget I said it. Seeking is for serious, soberminded people.

          • Brien

            Yep, y’all jest kip etin’ them thar smart pills….

            ”ah done sayd that thar is uh gawd – so that thar’s ma pruf…”. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/37ac9722980bfe1c76f773e062feff5cc48f76063bd839ddb54797a0d6408dd1.jpg

          • Matthew 22:37

            Your scriptural knowledge is sadly lacking.

            Unfortunately, that will remain your problem as I am going to obey God and depart now and cease from trying to correct your misunderstanding since it only seems to engender contention from you.

            Job 28:28
            28“And to man He said, ‘Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom;
            And to depart from evil is understanding.’”

          • Brien

            Oh like we are supposed to be expert on “Grimm’s fairy tales” to know that they are silly fables??? and not true??

            Are you really this deluded or are trying to act stupid in the fact that your crap scri[pture does not prove anything but that the words exist only – and that there are no gods…
            PROVE .. YOUR .. GOD … EXISTS. . . . .!
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d5a0db39f1b724ca46bfc437042b27f4b39eab19456c6fc0fc2789bc644b6b3b.jpg

          • Brien

            ”She’s an elderly woman who used to go under various monikers before she became “Matthew 22:37”. She used to call herself “Cloudnine”, “Glory”, and other titles.”

          • Matthew 22:37

            By the way. God said He’s God.

            Who cares what I said.

            If you had a lick of sense you would be seeking Him in your own original way instead of resting on atheist propaganda so negligently like a lazy skeptic.

            Hope you see the light some day! A personal revelation is better than someone proving something to another person any day of the week.

            A lot of people receive personal revelations.

            If I were you I’d be asking myself why I didn’t receive one.

            Could it be your attitude sucks and you got passed over?

            All of David’s brothers got passed over in the Bible until God picked David. Christ personally picked his obedient ones, the disciples.

            Have a great life being too theologically lazy to seek to know God but still hanging out on message boards asserting things you can’t prove to control the life decisions and destinies of other people you don’t know in real life.

          • A personal revelation I something subjective and is not knowledge. How do you know that your so-called personal revelation is of someone external to yourself or is something only going on in your head or heart, but having no reality external to yourself? You don’t. You can believe in any kind of god by claiming a personal revelation. Is it Thor? Is it Zeus? Is it Jupiter? Is it Allah? is it Yahweh? Why don’t you realise that your whole belief in any God is subjective and is not objective evidence for such a God’s existence?

  • Matthew 22:37

    Socialism and communism are covetous systems as they seek to control the work production of the masses.

    An interesting article explaining how socialism and communism seek to overturn the whole civil system of marriage, the family, etc. is on a Catholic site called crisismagazine.com: “The 100 Years War: The Church and Communism”.

  • Brien
  • Brien

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/cogs.12138

    ”…exposure to religious ideas has a powerful impact on children’s differentiation between reality and fiction, not just for religious stories but also for fantastical stories.”

    Keep the Lies about gods away from children! https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0c58c96141b3a9e8a98b2e7233b0f96e6708ef312c8f0d65fe36ccd019682451.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/944484d066464e1f9db1486fa3f12add50abbb7b78db209ecc483e6bac12545d.png

  • Brien

    What you have done to prove your god is …Nothing!

    You claim a god – we all know that there is no logic or common sense to a god;
    the sciences have no need of any gods in Nature.

    Your constant deflections tell all thinking peoples that you do not have any evidence,
    – just the constant references to the one single solitary book for your god
    – Just like a superman comic!

    We don’t much care what obscure definitions, and rhetorical absurdities, that you dredge up by other ‘men’
    …. The fact remains that there are no gods and you have chosen to stay deluded when you know bloody well that you got Nothing…..

    Nothing!!! https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/042799bc12732316d7a6c5f5b55adc06116ff4d565cb98d76d17eee709d8569e.jpg