Oh Christian, Where is Your Joy!?

Oh Christian, Where is Your Joy!? March 27, 2019

There is strength in being filled with joy, and to help you be filled with joy, here is a study on helping you find the joy again.

Joyless Christians

For some reason, some of the saddest people on the planet may be Christians. I can’t understand why they’ve lost their joy, unless their joy was dependent upon circumstances, and if they lost their joy due to that, then they don’t have that deep, abiding joy found only in the Lord. They are basing their joy on how the day goes or what’s going on in their life. This kind of joy is fleeting, and it’s not from the Lord but dependent upon the moment, but joy is a source of strength for us when we need it, but it’s also something we must choose. Just like we can learn to be content (Phil 4:12), we can learn to be joyful, and the Scriptures can help us do that. In fact, God will supply the joy as we shall see.

The Source

If the source of joy is dependent upon circumstances, then our joy will come and go like the morning mist. Our joy will depend on how the day goes, but a believer has every reason to be full of joy, but we are not the source of true joy. The psalmist says, “You have put more joy in my heart than they have when their grain and wine abound” (Psalm 4:7). There is great strength in joy. No one wants to be around someone who is constantly complaining or whining. After Ezra read the Law of God before the people, they wept, but Ezra said, “Go your way. Eat the fat and drink sweet wine and send portions to anyone who has nothing ready, for this day is holy to our Lord. And do not be grieved, for the joy of the LORD is your strength” (Neh 8:10). The source of our joy is the Lord, and this joy is a resource for strength, so we may be at our weakest when we have no joy at all. Here’s how to tank up on the joy of the Lord. The psalmist wrote, “You make known to me the path of life; in your presence there is fullness of joy; at your right hand are pleasures forevermore” (Psalm 16:11). That ought to fill your cup with joy.

The End in Mind

I don’t really like traveling that much and was probably one of the kids that kept asking, “Are we there yet,” but we were able to endure the traveling by placing our minds on the destination. In other words, if we can live with the end in mind, we can better endure today. The Bible says that some sweet day “the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God” (Rev 21:3). Believer’s also look forward to the day when “He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away” (Rev 21:4). Living with the destination in mind, we can endure today’s trials. James wrote, “Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness” (James 1:2-3). The Apostle Peter desires our focus to be on the day of His return, writing, “Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory” (1 Pet 1:8). Jesus’ imminent return ought to fill us with joy! Jesus encouraged the disciples by them “These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full” (John 15:11). The fullness of Joy is found only in Christ, but this joy also comes from Christ, so it is not originated in the human heart. Humans may be joyful at the birth of a child, but this joy eventually wears down after the hard work of caring for the child begins, however the joy of the Lord endures forever. That’s why we should “give thanks to the LORD, for he is good, for his steadfast love endures forever” (Psalm 107:1).

A Choice

We can choose contentment. So says the Apostle Paul, writing, “I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need” (Phil 4:12). He had to learn the hard way…from the experience of suffering, but his eyes were on Christ and not on the moment. Paul learned contentment because he chose to learn it. It’s the same thing with joy. Joy is a choice. Besides, we’re better off being in a state of joy since “A joyful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones” (Prov 17:22). After the disciples learned Jesus was going away, He told them, “you have sorrow now, but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you” (John 16:22). Not long after this, they did rejoice after seeing Him raised from the dead, so Scripture tells us that a permanent, abiding joy only comes from God, and from knowing Christ, but we must also choose joy by choosing to abide in Christ and His Word. “This is the day that the LORD has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it” (Psalm 118:24). To say “let us rejoice” means we must allow ourselves to rejoice. We’re not helpless victims of life’s circumstances.

Conclusion

I plead guilty.  There are times I’ve lost my joy, but if we count our blessings and write them out one by one, we should end up with several pages to reflect upon. One blessing is that God forgives and forgets, and “his anger is but for a moment, and his favor is for a lifetime. Weeping may tarry for the night, but joy comes with the morning” (Psalm 30:5). Perhaps the greatest joy of all is being used by God to save souls. There is no greater joy than the joy of a soul-winner, with the understanding that God alone saves, but what a privilege to be used by Him to rescue the perishing. That’s the same kind of joy in heaven when someone is saved. Jesus said that “there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents” (Luke 15:10). Listen to Jesus: “These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full” (John 15:11). Many have lost their joy because they’ve based their joy on circumstances, but the joy of the Lord is from the Lord; it is our strength. “[T]he kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit” (Rom 14:17). The Holy Spirit or God Himself is the giver of joy, but we still have a choice to make, so I say choose joy.

Article by Jack Wellman

Jack Wellman is Pastor of the Mulvane Brethren Church in Mulvane Kansas. Jack is a writer at Christian Quotes and also the Senior Writer at What Christians Want To Know whose mission is to equip, encourage, and energize Christians and to address questions about the believer’s daily walk with God and the Bible. You can follow Jack on Christian Crier or check out his book Teaching Children the Gospel available on Amazon.

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  • Matthew 22:37

    We Shall Behold Him [Live], Sandi Patty
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ3H3lg9NZM

  • pud

    Endless ignorant stupid babble

    “Perhaps the greatest joy of all is being used by God to save souls.”

    Demonstrate that any such “soul” exists, that any such “god” exists and that any “god” NEEDS to “use” you.

    “The Holy Spirit or God Himself is the giver of joy”

    Demonstrate the existence of any such “holy spirit”…..how about just defining it? LOL

    Explain why this “god” simply doesn’t give away “joy” to all…..come…made up some ridiculous tap dance….waiting cowardly preacher…still waiting…

    • Matthew 22:37

      Somebody ought to slap you for having the temerity to try to boss them around in their thoughtlives and for trying to take the reins over in their hearts. When you clearly are not in good control of yourself.

      You’re not God. You can’t even manage your own heart to God’s satisfaction and you want to change other people’s belief systems. For what purpose? So they can serve Satan like you do?

      Learn somethings about why your heart is not right with God!

      What have you put ahead of God disrupting your relationship with Him?

      What false ideas are you serving and allowing to control your thoughtlife?

      Why is it important for you to get your heart right with God? It is obvious you need to do that pud because you are failing hard at understanding and interpreting God’s Word yet you want to bring railing accusations against Him and His people.

      You a powerless man….Spiritually Dead in your trespasses and sins.

      Read up on the heart! Give yourself an education in the scriptures for a change. You have to let God deal with your heart or else you will be left behind with the devil. Do you understand that?

      Everyday you are on this blog promoting rebellion against God while your own thoughtlife and heart are overgrown with unholy thinking. This hinders your relationship with God.

      Both evil and good motives spring from the heart.

      So stop letting evil keep planting it’s seed in your heart and turn to God and His good for a change.

      Read this one and ask God to assert Himself again on your behalf for you because you do not know what you are doing and what blasphemy you are committing against the Most High God and Judge of this world.

      Surrender your heart to God and let Him give you a spiritual education and upbringing in this unholy world while you still have time.

      Pray this one, pud:

      Psalm 139: 23-24:

      23Search me, O God, and know my heart!
      Try me and know my thoughts!
      24And see if there be any grievous way in me,
      and lead me in the way everlasting!

      Then read this one or click on the “listen to” button.

      “Is Your Heart Right With God?”
      https://www.ucg.org/sermons/is-your-heart-right-with-god

    • Matthew 22:37

      Maybe God is waiting on you to get over yourself. Ever think of that?

      Why are you so negative all the time?

      Some people are not as negative as you. Some people know God loves them absolutely all the time. It doesn’t mean they don’t have a personal battle with sin or evil heart motives to shed.

      The bible says to die to self daily.

      A seed dies and goes into a process of transformation. Read Sielaff’s “Your Resurrection” on it.

      With such a poor knowledge of theology and a lack of transformative experience yourself you should not be presuming to manage anyone else’s soul or spiritual life.

      Go read what Martin Rees said about not attaching worth to Stephen Hawkings religious opinions because he did not know theology or philosophy and spent almost no time reading them.

      Seriously, you are no expert on theology either.

      Try surrendering your intellect to the Holy Spirit and let God inform you of the truth for a change.

      All people are made in God’s image. Are you really this willing to let evil minded thinking and sin rule your thoughtlife and delay your social and spiritual development.

      Ask God for the gift of faith and ask Him how to increase in faith and guard your heart so the devil and the world cannot mess with you so much.

      Have a blessed day. Seeking is God’s way. The scientific method is not a spiritual route to God.

      So stop mixing up your spiritual and scientific methodologies. They serve different purposes.

      Would you use a tea kettle to fry potatoes in?

      Of course not. A tea kettle serves a different purpose. You use it for boiling not frying.

      Stop mixing up your methodologies and ask God for some help for a change. He can still enlighten you. He enlightened raging Saul on the Road to Damascus didn’t He so He can enlighten you if you show Him some love and respect. He can give you a whole new attitude and heart, too.

      So stop giving up on Him because He won’t give up on you.

      You are seeking Him in a backwards manner everyday on this blog so start seeking Him in the right way.

      Humble yourself and let Him change you!

    • Matthew 22:37

      Be sure to read the evidence I posted in this thread.

      Putting you back on block because I don’t wish to debate your evidence interpretation.

      Plus it is time to leave and find a more congenial place to post.

      Hope you overcome your confirmation bias and read it.

      Bye!

      • pud

        Is “god’ omnipresent? Yes or No?

  • Matthew 22:37

    Read Archaeology Verifies the Bible As God’s Word:
    http://www.bibletoday.com/ebook/Archaeology.pdf

    Why anyone disputes archaeolgy’s evidence when it is a science I do not understand.

    Evil confirmation bias? Learned and misapplied skepticism?

    Archaeology has been known to convince skeptics and atheists as the book above tells.

    Google Pharoah’s Chariots on youtube to turn up the video documenting evidence they found of the Pharoah’s Army and chariot wheels in the Dead Sea.

    • Archaeology cannot verify the bible as God’s Word. All it can do is to show whether an event recorded in the bible is likely to have happened historically or not. It does not verify whether or not it was god who slaughtered the first born children of those where blood was not applied as allegedly instructed. It does not verify whether any god exists or not. If any god exists, isn’t he invisible? How can archaeology be evidence that an invisible god exists. It deals with material objects.

      No-one is disputing archaeological evidence for anything where there is such evidence, but the site you quote is a very biased bible fundamentalist website. Read some real archaeologists and see why they don’t support the view of a literal exodus.

      By the way, the Egyptian soldiers were not drowned in the “Dead Sea” as you claim. The bible says that it was the Red Sea, although some biblical scholars suggest that it was the Sea of Reeds, not the Red Sea.

      • Judy Thompson

        archaeology can only show that something physical happened, that a building was built and/or collapsed, that there was an ocean that left fossils where there’s desert now, sort of thing. Archaeology is a concrete measuable science and no archaeologist worth his picks and measurements would dream of ascribing anything mythical to anything in or on or under the ground.
        And, yes, John Arthur, I read about the same Sea of Reeds as you did. More than one weary monk with a drippy pen or stylus inadvertantly changed the Bible a tad, and then the next one copied the same mistake and added in a few of his own. Throw in a few translations from one ancient language to another, and then another, and it’s a wonder we can comprehend any of it at all.

  • Wolf of Odin

    What garbage.

    • Matthew 22:37

      Look at my spammed post.

      Archaeologists Discovered The Remains Of The Egyptian Army Real Evidence Of Exodus Was True
      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yuTX1la3Fg8

      Interesting site on Biblical Archaeology:
      http://www.bibletoday.com/e
      Quote:
      William Foxwell Albright, the son of missionary parents, as a young man of faith eagerly pursued his college education. Finally, he received the coveted Ph.D. — but at great cost. His faith had been destroyed by the 19th century German school of higher criticism. The leading exponents of this school of higher criticism, Wellhausen and Delitzach, were out to prove that the Old Testament history of the Bible was mere fiction. Why? Wellhausen and Delitzsach were known as anti-Semitic.
      Quote:
      The so-called gods of the ancient nations were tribal or ethnic in dominion. Yahweh, the God of the universe, was concerned with the welfare of all humankind. True, He had chosen to reveal Himself for the most part through Israel. But, far from showing partiality, the Jewish people were held to greater responsibility commensurate with their greater enlightenment and blessings. God’s severe chastening on Israel was part of how God was revealing His character and purposes to both the Jewish people and to humankind.
      “. . . My initially rather skeptical attitude toward the accuracy of Israelite historical tradition,” Albright recalled, “had suffered repeated jolts as discovery after discovery confirmed the historicity of details which might reasonably have been considered legendary.”
      Quote:
      Albright was awed with the God of Israel. Here was a God who was all-powerful, caring, and above all trustworthy. A God who dared to create man in his likeness — possessing intelligent, moral values and free will. A God who could nurture, not coerce, that free will for the eternal welfare of all. Finally, Albright had found a God to whom he could entrust his life.
      Albright’s Objectivity
      The so-called gods of the ancient nations were tribal or ethnic in dominion. Yahweh, the God of the universe, was concerned with the welfare of all humankind. True, He had chosen to reveal Himself for the most part through Israel. But, far from showing partiality, the Jewish people were held to greater responsibility commensurate with their greater enlightenment and blessings. God’s severe chastening on Israel was part of how God was revealing His character and purposes to both the Jewish people and to humankind.
      “. . . My initially rather skeptical attitude toward the accuracy of Israelite historical tradition,” Albright recalled, “had suffered repeated jolts as discovery after discovery confirmed the historicity of details which might reasonably have been considered legendary.”
      Down through history few nations have suffered as Israel. Yet, God preserved them. No ancient polity has been destroyed, its people scattered to the ends of the earth, then, nearly 2,000 years later regathered to their ancestral homeland to be reborn as a nation. What a miracle of history! The details of this national destruction, dispersion, centuries’ sojourn in diaspora, regathering and rebirth were all predicted in Scripture.
      Sir William Ramsay ( an atheist and the son of atheists) devoted his whole life to archaeology. Having set out to show the Bible false, he learned what many others have been forced to acknowledge. When we objectively examine the evidence for the Bible’s accuracy and veracity, the only conclusion we can reach is that the Bible is true.
      Read the link above to discover what Albright and Ramsay discovered or go to the Middle East to examine and unearth evidence for yourself.
      If you reject archaeology as a science then you are cherrypicking the sciences to support your own bias against God. How someone can accept the incomplete fossil record as authoritative and disproving God’s existence while he refuses to examine the evidence from archaeology confirming God’s existence?
      Some skeptics and atheists have been converted off the archaeological evidence. Why does someone else’s denial of that evidence over rule another person’s assessment and acceptance of it.
      Archaeological science
      Archaeological science, also known as archaeometry, consists of the application of scientific techniques to the analysis of archaeological materials, to assist in dating the materials. It is related to methodologies of archaeology. Martinón-Torres and Killick distinguish ‘scientific archaeology’ (as an epistemology) from ‘archaeological science’ (the application of specific techniques to archaeological materials).[1] Martinón-Torres and Killick claim that ‘archaeological science’ has promoted the development of high-level theory in archaeology. However, Smith rejects both concepts of archaeological science because neither emphasize falsification or a search for causality.[2]
      In the United Kingdom, the Natural and Environmental Research Council provides funding for archaeometry separate from the funding provided for archaeology.[3] However, in almost all cases of archeometric research, scientists from the natural sciences assist in the scientific analysis of archeological artifacts. Universities that offer courses in archeometry offer these courses frequently as free choice for archeology students and these courses contain mainly a nonscientific overview over the possibilities that different scientific analyses offer to them.

      Strange how so many claim to want evidence but then a person spams this post of mine.

      It does not seem like atheists really want evidence to me.

  • pud

    Jack….Is “god” omnipresent? Yes or No?

    • Matthew 22:37

      Have you lost your God given mind?

      The pastor is not going to give up a golden relationship with God to satisfy your lunatic pride.

      Why don’t you go hangout with all the atheist lunatics on their blog.

      And boy are they lunatics. Totally dedicated to staying cut off from God in their own minds. They just banned me today on another atheist blog for telling the truth.

      There is even an atheist lunatic on this blog killing my evidence for God posts while he self contradictorily claims that he needs evidence.

      The truth is he wants to control the evidence so he can dismiss God in his own mind and stay enslaved to Satan in sin.

      I am sick and tired of watching the Pastor walk on egg shells for you while you let Satan make a lunatic out of you.

      Only the weak minded and weak willed to sin countenance the devil in their own thoughtlives.

      Get Jesus and get rid of sin and the devil. Or you are the lunatic.

      2 Timothy 1:7, King James Version
      King James Bible
      For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

      • pud

        Is your “god” “omnipresent” Yes or No?

        • Matthew 22:37

          Yes.

          • pud

            Ok good…So to be clear…Does this mean that your “god” is everywhere at all times watching over everyone constantly?

          • Matthew 22:37

            I believe so. Now don’t you come back fault finding Him.

            He saves each in his own order.

            Some people are raised right right from the cradle but alot of people aren’t.

            How could you learn to bring good out of evil like God does without experiencing it first and knowing the difference mentally.

            And you stop casting aspersions on God’s character.

            I know someone God saved from half a lifetime of clinical depression. I don’t know why you consented to devalue people’s testimony when the God of the Bible is a personal God that gets personal with people all the time in the Bible.

            You had better separate yourself from the bad thinkers for a while and start meditating on good things for a change.

          • pud

            Ok..good. So when a pedophile is raping some child your “god” is omnipresent and watching it while doing nothing correct?

          • Matthew 22:37

            You are back on block again and I will probably never lift it again.

            You have the personal choice to project evil or not and you keep projecting it onto God and Christians.

            I am sorry your worldview is so evil and you let all that evil turn you into an evil character but you aren’t talking to me any more.

            You seem to like wallowing in your evil thinking putting other people down.

            Maybe it’s because you are beat yourself and gave up on yourself.

            I knew an armless woman once. Her boyfriend threw her in front of a train and she lost both arms but I never saw her display any negativity toward God or others like you do.

            That woman refused to be bitter and actually worked a very demanding job helping abused children.

            So keep your negative thinking to yourself.

            You can be an incessant blamer, quitter, faultfinder and complainer if you want to but I’m not going to listen to it because I think all those rotten voices come from the devil.

            Quitters never win. They are beat in their own heads before they have even gotten started.

            So keep your negativity to yourself.

            Some of the biggest personal role models in this world are the people who overcame adversity. They didn’t dwell on it until it consumed them.

          • pud

            Why can’t you answer my simple question?

          • Matthew 22:37

            I am not interested in being interrogated by someone who lets the devil own him.

            You listened to all the losers in this world and made their views your own and now want to act out on this blog.

            Well I am done dealing with toxic people that try to rain on everyone else’s parade or try to control them.

            You had better get your own act together. You are accountable to God. Everybody is.

          • pud

            Not interrogating…simply asking you a question about your “god”….why won’t you answer it?

          • Matthew 22:37

            I don’t know the answer to every question. I’m not God. I just know He exists.

            But you always seem to assume the worst.

            The word for crisis in Chinese also means opportunity.

            Some people can turn a crisis into an opportunity.

          • pud

            I just want to know if you consider it moral for your “god” to watch a pedophile rape a child and do nothing about it. Do you approve? Would you intervene?

          • Matthew 22:37

            You just projected evil again.

            You don’t have a right to project evil into other people’s minds. Particularly after they told you not to.

            People have the gift of a will and some people have better control of their wills than others.

            Obviously the sinner’s will is broken and he doesn’t respect the personhood of other people like he should.

            Is God suppose to break the sinner’s will without their consent or giving them time to repent and come to their senses?

            Evil exists in human nature.

            There is no denying it. Comparing people to animals does nothing to limit or rectify that evil. It allows people to rationalize and excuse it.

            Some evil is biological in origin but some people can put mind over matter.

            The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

            Why do you want to keep thinking materialism controls everything. It is self limiting and could be self defeating.

            There are some scientists with 2 lines of thinking in their heads. A natural line and a spiritual one.

            The spiritual line is meant to correct the natural one and guide it away from evil behavior and impulses.

            Ethics can override evil if you don’t keep dismissing spiritual morality all the time.

          • pud

            Not “projecting” anything…I simply asked you a couple of questions which you either won’t or can’t answer.

          • Matthew 22:37

            I did answer. I don’t know why God intervenes sometimes and not others.

            But He brings good out of evil.

          • pud

            Is that so? Tell me what “good” comes from a pedophile raping a child while your “god” watches and refuses to intervene? What would you think of a man who watched and did nothing to stop it?

          • Matthew 22:37

            You know what you are too negative to be around on a regular basis so I will let you figure that one out on your own.

            You think sin doesn’t exist but want to find fault with God?

            Start analyzing yourself for internal error for a change.

            Einstein did not think like you no matter what lies Richard Dawkins told about him being an atheist. He was not an atheist and he got angry when people misquoted him misattributing atheism to him. It is in his biography by Jammer.

            But then Einstein loved Jesus as a boy before getting diverted into science.

            Bye. Hope you see the light some day.

          • pud

            So you just can’t answer a single question that threatens your make believe fantasy can you?

            The FACT is your make believe invisible undetectable “god” under this scenario that you agreed to is immoral and a disgusting monster. I rest my case

          • Matthew 22:37

            Goodbye.

            You’re not an authority on reality. Plenty of psychiatrists are Christians.

            Though I bet that high suicide rate among psychiatrists is among the non-Christian ones coming into contact day in and day out with immoral monster’s thinking like you display without Jesus to protect them.

            Your whole thoughtlife is full of blasphemy and you never hold the devil accountable for anything so look what he did to your thoughtlife.

            You’re the immoral socially unacceptable monster, pud. Atheists are the most disliked group on the planet and it’s their thoughtlives and what they express towards others behind that and after most of the world finds you anathema you still want to quarrel and blame God.

            Your actions give the lie to your words. They show your true thinking.

            I rest my case.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            You made a bunch of unsupported assertions, like castles in the clouds.

            You THEN proceeded to pretend they were real and move into them, using that as ‘evidence’ that you’re correct.

            Pathetic.

          • Matthew 22:37

            Some evidence an atheist deleted on here yesterday.

            Archaeologists Discover Pharoah’s Army and Chariot Wheel in the Red Sea
            https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yuTX1la3Fg8

          • Artor

            So the moderators removed it, but you feel it’s okay to post it again, and you don’t mind admitting that? Wow, you are a grade-A Asshole.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            Disreputable assertion source.

            Unless you believe in the Hindu religion, or in Ancient Aliens, then you’re just cherry-picking the site for convenience.

            https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjEMNfiG-ejRaWT5HOttHSw

          • Matthew 22:37

            You are a sinner and not fit to judge God.

            Does (Hab 1:13) literally mean that God cannot look at evil / sin?

            A: If you look at this verse in 3 different ways: in context, in the Hebrew it was written in, and against the rest of the Bible, I think you will see very clearly that this verse does not mean that God cannot look on evil / sin. Here is (Hab 1:13) in 3 different translations:

            (KJV) Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

            (NIV) Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrongdoing. Why then do you tolerate the treacherous? Why are you silent while the wicked swallow up those more righteous than themselves?

            (NASB) “Your eyes are too pure to approve evil, And You can not look on wickedness WITH FAVOR. Why do You look WITH FAVOR On those who deal treacherously? Why are You silent when the wicked swallow up Those more righteous than they?”
            (caps emphasis mine)

            Answer here:
            http://jesusalive.cc/ques326.htm

            And from Barnes’ commentary:

            Habakkuk 1:13

            Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil – The prophet repeats his complaint (as troubling thoughts are accustomed to come back, after they have been repelled,), in order to answer it more strongly. All sin is hateful in God’ s sight, and in His Holy Wisdom He cannot endure to “look toward iniquity.” As man turns away from sickening sights, so God’ s abhorrence of wrong is pictured by His not being able to “look toward it.” If He looked toward them, they must perish Psalms 104:32. Light cannot co-exist with darkness, fire with water, heat with cold, deformity with beauty, foulness with sweetness, nor is sin compatible with the Presence of God, except as its Judge and punisher. Thou canst not look. There is an entire contradiction between God and unholiness. And yet,

            Wherefore lookest thou upon – viewest, as in Thy full sight make the contrast stronger. God cannot endure “to look toward” ( ) iniquity, and yet He does not only this, but beholdeth it, contemplateth it, and still is silent), yea, as it would seem, with favor , bestowing upon them the goods of this life, honor, glory, children, riches, as the Psalmist saith Psalms 73:12; “Behold these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world, they increase in riches?” Why lookest thou upon “them that deal treacherously, holdest Thy tongue,” puttest restraint , as it were, upon Thyself and Thine own attribute of Justice, “when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?” Psalms 143:2 “in God’ s sight no man living can be justified;” and, in one sense, Sodom and Gomorrah were less unrighteous than Jerusalem, and Matthew 10:15; Matthew 11:24; Mark 6:11; Luke 10:12 “it shall be more tolerable for them in the day of Judgment,” because they sinned against less light; yet the actual sins of the Chaldee were greater than those of Jerusalem, and Satan’ s evil is greater than that of these who are his prey.

            To say that Judah was more righteous than the Chaldaean does not imply any righteousness of the Chaldaean, as the saying that (Jeremiah 31:11, Del.) “God ransomed Jacob from the hand of one stronger than he,” does not imply any strength remaining to Israel. Then, also, in all the general judgments of God, the righteous too suffer in this world, whence Abraham intercedes for Sodom, if there were but ten righteous in it; lest Genesis 18:23 “the righteous be destroyed with the wicked.” Hence, God also spared Nineveh in part as having Jonah 4:11 “more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand,” i. e., good from evil. No times were more full of sin than those before the destruction of Jerusalem, yet the fury of the Assassins fell upon the innocent. And so the words, like the voice of the souls under the Altar Revelation 6:10, become the cry of the Church at all times against the oppressing world, and of the blood of the martyrs from Abel to the end, “Lord, how long?” And in that the word “righteous” signifies both “one righteous man,” and the whole class or generation of the righteous, it speaks both of Christ the Head and of all His members in whom (as by Saul) He was persecuted. The wicked also includes all persecutors, both those who executed the Lord Christ, and those who brought His servants before judgment-seats, and who blasphemed His Name James 2:6-7, and caused many to blaspheme, and killed those whom they could not compel. And God, all the while, seemeth to look away and not to regard.

            scroll down here:
            https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Bible.show/sVerseID/22745/eVerseID/22745/RTD/barnes

          • pud

            Can you reason? Can you follow a logical argument without endless babbling responses?

            1. Is it immoral for ANYONE to watch a pedophile rape a child and if able do nothing to stop it? Yes or No?

            2. Does your invisible undetectable “god” who you have admitted is “omnipresent” watch as pedophiles rape children? Yes or No?

            3. Does this make your invisible undetectable “god” immoral? Yes or No?

            Do not babble…do not ramble mindlessly…..I’ve given you 3 simple questions to answer. Begin

          • Matthew 22:37

            I don’t argue. Arguments are too faulty and error ridden with human thinking errors.

            You had better learn how to do Biblical research and how to handle a commentary and concordance. If you want to question God.

            Imagine being so theologically lazy that you failed to master the LORD of the Universe’s opinion in favor of error prone men’s opinions.

            Christians know they will judge angels one day. That kind of wisdom to do that only comes from God.

            May the Lord be with you!

          • pud

            You’re babbling nonsense again.

            I wasn’t asking you to “argue” just answer the questions

            You admitted that your invisible undetectable “god” was “omnipresent” did you not?

            Therefore it follows that when a pedophile is raping a child your invisible undetectable “god” is there and watching correct?

            You admitted this….so just answer the question

            Does this or does this not make your invisible undetectable “god” immoral?

          • Matthew 22:37

            I am not answering anything. I am not on trial.

            These are your questions to take to God.

            Better get busy doing your own biblical research.

            What if I made a mistake.

            Your understanding of God should hinge on another person’s understanding with no attempt to learn for yourself?

            Take responsibility and research things for yourself.

            And stop submitting Christians and God to your half baked opinions.

          • pud

            This is elementary reasoning. Can you not reason at a simple level?

            If another man was watching a pedophile rape a child and was capable of stopping it and didn’t ….would that man be immoral? Yes or No?

            It’s a simple question you should readily be able to answer if you yourself are a moral person and can reason at even a basic level

            Answer this and then try to answer the original question. Show that you know what is moral and what isn’t and that you can effectively reason

          • Matthew 22:37

            I am not perfect in my reasoning. Who is except God?

            You need to start taking your questions to God so you can build a good biblical understanding of Him. His way.

            Then you are building your own perspective of Him.

            Not borrowing and trashing mine.

            Be sure to get your heart right with God before building your perspective though. You may have been borrowing an evil perspective from evil people.

            This is your opinion of God and He can read your heart and knows what you think of Him.

            Have a blessed day!

          • pud

            So, In your “opinion” right or wrong…would a “god” be immoral watching a pedophile rape a child and not intervening to stop it?

          • pud

            I’m not offering any opinions. I simply asked you a couple of questions and if you can reason effectively and if the questions posed makes your “god” immoral or not.

          • Matthew 22:37

            Look after the way you have insulted everyone on this blog I may be the only person left to level with you.

            You are important to God but you are dreadfully confused on His nature.

            Just meditate on the fact that God loves you and learn to take things one step at a time. Stop drawing so many conclusions and study your Bible until God’s nature sinks in to your consciousness.

            Take it easy. There is no reason to debate if you can do biblical meditation.

            Think of debating as the shortcut that gets you in trouble. Go back and get a good ethical tutor and master the Bible.

            You don’t have to give up science for it.

            Read the Biologos site. Those are theistic evolutionists like Francis Collins is.

            You’re important to God. Why would you object to learning all about such a worthy Person who has your best interests at heart?

            Just think about it. No objections, questions, debating or response necessary.

            Just ponder….deep thinking.

          • pud

            Yeah..that’s a lot of very nice blather but answer the question…..does the situation I’ve outlined numerous times now make your “god” a moral monster? Yes or No?

          • Matthew 22:37

            Look I am exhorting you. Using a spiritual gift.

            I am not really reading your questions that closely because I know you need to turn around and go back to basics and toss that bad perspective of God you have out.

            You should be seeking enlightenment now. Studying to be an approved man.

            I am signing off now so you can reflect for a long time.

          • pud

            Thank you…You’ve demonstrated clearly to everyone reading that you are indeed out of your fucking skull. cheers!

          • Matthew 22:37

            Goodbye.

            And don’t curse God in your thiughts.

            Bless Him for reaching out to you through Christians.

            The spiritual gift of exhortation is useful in helping other people become spiritual seekers so they can form a relationship with God.

            Study the spiritual gifts and ask God to grant you discernment so you can start recognizing that He exists.

            Why do people exhibit spiritual gifts if some of them don’t know He exists?

            Though some are more good at filling in the gaps of their spiritual understanding with facts. Archaeologists, for example.

            I wish you well but am trying to break the posting habit so I have to block arguments.

            So please seek out God and work on establishing a good relationship with Him.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            YOU are attributing the good in people to your ‘god’, sans evidence.

            WE accept that people are a mix of good and bad.

            OUR explanation doesn’t require any supernatural nonsense….so it works better.

          • Matthew 22:37

            Make sure you read my posts to Seidensticker and Clancy today and do not question me.

            I am running an experiment on you and other atheists to see if you can be saved by correcting your thoughtlife.

            Exhortation is used to present God’s pictures and messages.

            You could be using debate to tear down God’s messages before you even understood Him and that is evil.

            You probably need to go back to church and let God correct you in His time. He knows what is best for you but if you desire to form an acquaintance with Him you can always seek Him out early but He will expect you to change your ways if you want to go on associating with Him.

            Have a blessed day. No objecting ok? Today is for meditating and self reflection.

          • pud

            You are in grave need of professional mental health care.

          • Artor

            I had a spiritual gift after I ate a spicy burrito. I was glad to let it free, but the people downwind of me weren’t. You shouldn’t place any stock in any “spiritual gifts.”

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            Hmmm, I smell misdirection and gaslighting.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            I am not answering anything. I am not on trial.

            Correct on all points.

            But your ‘god’ that you profess IS on trial, and failing miserably to even demonstrate its good IF it even exists.

          • “Arguments are too faulty and error ridden with human thinking errors.”

            Do you mean your arguments or other persons’ arguments? How does your statement apply to logical arguments backed by empirical evidence? How are these faulty?

            If you mean by God, the God of the bible then isn’t he guilty of faulty arguments since the book is full of contradictions. Or didn’t God write it? It seems to have been written by barbaric savages who created god in their own likeness. Wow! There are now over 40,000 different denominations squabbling over the meaning of the bible. It seems as if your god can’t give a clear revelation so that Christians and others can understand it. The utter confusion of the churches over the meaning of the bible is the result supposedly of having some holy spirit guiding them into the truth.

          • Why is biblical research of any value when biblical scholars cannot agree with each other on much of the bible? It’s no wonder when you have a book that is filled with contradictions. That’s why you have so many Christian apologists trying to defend the indefensible. If God existed, why would he not make himself known with clarity to all? Why does he need so many apologists desperately trying to defend him and why are there so many theologians who disagree on so many points? Isn’t it likely that no such God exists?

          • Artor

            Wow, for someone who lies constantly, I’d think you’d be better at it. You’ve done nothing BUT argue all through this thread and the ones you were banned from. Piss-poorly, I might add. If you are intending to show your god’s wisdom and benevolence, please keep it up. You;re showing exactly the opposite, and can’t help but turn people away. Thanks!

          • Matthew 22:37

            Oh and you are a man of unclean mind and lips. Isaiah instantly repented in heaven on coming into the presence of God and said “Woe I am a man of unclean lips”.

            So rest your case if you wish. God has not rested His and He will be reviewing your words and deeds on Judgment Day.

            Sin has befuddled your mind so remember to throw yourself on His mercy. Once you see Him you’ll know the devil played a mind game with you.

            Have a blessed day and the next time you have a question use a biblical commentary to get the answer. What are you too lazy to look up answers to your own questions?

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            Einstein was raised jewish, and jewish people don’t fellate this ‘jesus’ the way YOUR KIND do…so I really doubt that, and think you’re trying for stealing Einstein’s credibility.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            Isaiah 45:7 “7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.”

            says that your ‘god’ ADMITS to *creating* evil…so you might want to try again, or admit that, having been raised in an Enlightenment society, YOU are more moral than your ‘god’, because these thoughts (rightly) disturb you.

          • pud

            What about the “will” of the child being raped? Would you not intervene to stop it? Don’t you think most mortal people would? Why then doesn’t your “god”?

          • Matthew 22:37

            Did you ever think you should be answering these questions for yourself?

            I don’t think I am suppose to attempt to answer everything.

            How do you develop a spiritual mind by not using your own mind.

            You had better seek God and let Him develop your own spiritual mind before negatively analyzing others you refuse to relate to.

            Spirituality could be mentally liberating for you.

          • pud

            I have answers. I simply wanted to know your answers. You just can’t seem to stay on topic or address a simple singular question without some bizarre ramble.

            How can you worship a “god” who would watch a child being raped and do nothing to stop it?

          • Matthew 22:37

            I doubt watch is accurate.

            Goodbye.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            Why do you ‘doubt’ *watch* NOW?

            Earlier you enthusiastically agreed with the proposition that your ‘god’ is everywhere, all the time, watching EVERYTHING.

            It seems you don’t like the consequences of that, now do you?

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            I don’t think I am suppose [sic] to attempt to answer everything.

            This is a deflection and a HORRIBLE EXCUSE.

            This is ONE question…and yet you REFUSE to answer it!

            Why?

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            Your ‘bible’ wasn’t written in Chinese, so that thin reed of a purported ‘defense’ fails miserably.

            As YOU have failed miserably so far, and will *continue* to fail, in your quest to gain converts.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            Why is pud’s question ‘negative’ to you?

            Is it because it shows your ‘god’, if it existed, would be a moral monster?

      • Clancy

        No, you were banned for violating the commenting policy. Repeatedly, after you were warned.

        • Matthew 22:37

          Sorry, I don’t believe in arguing with atheists.

          Have a blessed day. You can pray to God and ask Him to make a spiritual seeker out of you so you can find peace.

          Romans 3, NLT
          All People Are Sinners

          9Well then, should we conclude that we Jews are better than others? No, not at all, for we have already shown that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles,c are under the power of sin. 10As the Scriptures say,
          “No one is righteous—
          not even one.
          11No one is truly wise;
          no one is seeking God.
          12All have turned away;
          all have become useless.
          No one does good,
          not a single one.”d
          13“Their talk is foul, like the stench from an open grave.
          Their tongues are filled with lies.”
          “Snake venom drips from their lips.”e
          14“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”f
          15“They rush to commit murder.
          16Destruction and misery always follow them.
          17They don’t know where to find peace.”g
          18“They have no fear of God at all.”h

          • Clancy

            Sorry, I don’t believe in arguing with atheists.

            Your entire commenting history demonstrates that’s a lie.

            https://disqus.com/by/matthew_22_37/

          • Matthew 22:37

            My posting history shows that I exhorted and corrected them. I stoppoed debating several years back.

            Why use my natural mind so much when I can use my spiritual gifts.

            Of course, most atheists with the bad habit of arguing, also rejected God’s life changing love.

            Over the course of a long term dialog with atheists I saw many of them try to communicate their hardened personality traits to me as if they were desirable when some are just the sinful bad manifestations of human nature.

            I am a highly sensitive person who likes to think and am not receptive to verballly coercive tactics from people who display sociopathic tendencies like narcissism, xenophobia and anti-social personality disorder.

            A sane person with a good heart motive submits to the divine love of Jesus and follows him and allows him to change them into a better person. Some people need more changing than others.

            I don’t want to learn unbelevers’ thinking or ways. They allowed an evil confirmation bias and sin weaken their commonsense and now refuse to submit to God’s love.

            But God’s divine love changes the whole outlook of a person and results in changing the world.

            Love is a factor in producing mentally strong and healthy people. Divine love is the highest quality of love so rejecting it is irrational.

            Now I did not argue with you. I told you the truth so you can rethink things and repent.

            Who criticizes the God of the Bible when they are sinners? It only leaves one open to the vagaries of being owned by the devil.

            Your heart and body are like a vessel. Something has got to fill it if you refuse to follow Jesus and be filled with the Holy Spirit.

            Initially God gives his followers an earnest deposit of the spirit.

            Without that deposit you are left open to a lot of other evil spirits in this world.

            Don’t believe me then do a biblical topical study on it or read a book like “Strongman’s His Name What’s His Game”. That books elucidates on how to identify the 16 major evil spirits. It was written by the Robesons, missionaries to third world countries.

            Science has no authority over evil spirits. How many times did a person go off to a psychiatrist and get medicated while all the time the underlying condition was left unchanged.

            I believe in God. Why some people are saner than others is hard to explain but in my opinion people with Jesus have a chance of becoming more sane while people without him have less chance.

            Atheists have a higher suicide rate than theists.

            Apparently something is different and stronger in a person when he is committed to believing in a limiless being while someone rejecting God is weaker to sin and has stronger self destructive tendencies.

            So why would I argue or allow a group of people bedeviled by evil spirits and self destructive tendencies to guide my thinking.

            No, I will guard my heart as the Bible tells me to do and follow Jesus’ teachings while he builds a whole new nature in me and equips me for spiritual warfare so I can be a winner in Him while the rest of the world fails to understand, lets sin and Satan rule them and develops loser/quitter mentalities and attitudes.

            There is no courage in this world greater than the courage God supplies.

            The Battle Is Not Yours
            https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lN26jw53c0M

            So you want to battle wits now instead of allowing the good Lord to change you?

            You are out of your mind then and failed to develop a spiritual mind under God.

            I have dialogued with over 400 atheists and they NEVER sway me because I am a fully committed Christian who learned to put on the full armor of God and I take up the Sword of the Spirit regularly so the Holy Spirit can convict people.

            To do that you have to be fully dedicated to God and exhortation not disputation.

            Have a blessed day and get your heart right with God while you still have time.

            Atheism never makes me cry uncle or turn away from my Father God.

            You have let this world deceive you.

            Now let the good Lord make a New Creation Man out of you while you can still get a good biblical education and be raised the right way.

          • Clancy

            I do not expect to deconvert you, nor do i have any interest in doing so. But i have pointed out various inaccuracies and mistatements you have made. You are deluded. That you think God talks to you concerns me. How can I distinguish that from psychosis? How do I know that the voice won’t tell you to track down atheists and slaughter them?

          • Matthew 22:37

            Well nothing left to say.

            Bye.

          • Clancy

            Bye.

          • Matthew 22:37

            You need to learn some manners if you are going to talk to theists on the internet.

            Theists are not deluded according to psychology. Just according to you and your misimpression is not controlling for the whole psychiatric community. Not even shared by all atheist psychiatrists as belief is not considered maladaptive but adaptive.

            So learn not to engage in the logical fallacy of ad hominem it makes you look bad.

            Please don’t respond. I know the next step usually degenerates into additional
            ad hominem attacks while you continue to deny to yourself that you don’t have a sin nature.

          • Clancy

            So you are attacking me because of my “sin nature”? Sounds pretty ad hominem to me.

          • Matthew 22:37

            I am teaching you the ancient biblical method of self examination.

            Christ told us to get the beam out of our own eye before judging others.

            Christians are strong on self examination and reflection.

            Romans 2:28-29, BSB

            …28 A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise does not come from men, but from God.

          • Clancy

            You have nothing to teach me. If I wish instruction, I will go to the pastor of my church, not you.

          • Matthew 22:37

            Biblical meditation is known as chewing the cud. Because the cow is a clean animal with two stomachs and grass his clean food. It takes a long time for the grass to pass and be absorbed through the osmosis of 2 stomachs.

            Biblical meditation is like that. The Bible is a Christian’s clean spiritual food on which he meditates and grows spiritually.

            We’re raised on the wisdom of God. But non-spiritual people cannot comprehend the Bible as the Bible itself says.

            It’s remarkable what you find in the Bible when you really study and absorb it. Some of the observations are brilliant in their simplicity.

            The Book of Proverbs has some very cogent wisdom in it. There are 31 chapters in it. One chapter to consume a day for a 31 day month.

            Hope you become a seeker. Derek Prince was an atheist seeking in God’s Word for answers and converted to Christianity and became a worldwide evangelist.

            It’s hard to determine who genuine spiritual seekers are though.

            I need to leave atheists alone and look for the people with the teachable spirit.

          • Clancy

            I need to leave atheists alone and look for the people with the teachable spirit.

            I feel sorry for the gullible people on whom you inflict your fantasies.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            There are fewer and fewer such gullible people all the time, happy to say…MOSTLY due to social supports that prevent a person from succumbing to despair.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            More like a dog returning to its vomit, IMHO.

            Which is decidedly UNclean, according to your mindset, but much more accurate than how you flatter yourself.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            So how do YOU explain all the (mostly women) who are in prison for killing their children (or *trying* to do so) because they heard the word of the ‘lord’ commanding them to do so??!!

            If you accept an insanity defense for them, then how was Abraham any better?

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            You’re throwing unsupported assertions, then following up by throwing childish tantrums when challenged on the manifest insufficiency of your belief system.

          • Matthew 22:37

            God is stiil at work on and in some people and you are never going to knock that kind of self knowledge out of them.

            Some people understand God and His perspective better than you. So appeal to God for some discernment and stop letting the devil who tries to rule this world deceive you.

            Christ is the Lion and the Lamb because he has great power and authority but the heart of a lamb when he exercises it.

            Never Would Have Made It, Marvin Sapp
            https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7JXFg5KEoXg

            We all have the propensity to be God seekers unless we allow this world to mess up our spiritual seeking capability through lies and deception.

            Who is going to be a greater truth teller than God? Nobody.

            God never lies.

            He even leaves room for you to judge Him negatively if you let the world and the devil fool you into doing that.

            People’s behavior reveals there is an underlying sin nature in need of eradication. That fact is irrefutable.

            Human reason has not put an end to war in the 21st century. So why idolize it?

            In fact, it seems like the number of wars are increasing. That ought to tell you the devil is fighting furiously to maintain a foothold on the Earth.

          • Clancy

            All your statements depend on the Bible. The Bible is nothing but myth and legend, with no spiritual truth in it. It cannot be shown to be true without entering a self-referential loop.

          • Matthew 22:37

            Sin is demonstrated by the fact that men need laws to keep them in line.

            If human nature and reason were perfect then there is no need of law is there.

            Everyone would just do what is right.

            So God intervenes to give Christ who will build a whole new nature in people and what do many of them do?

            Rebel and make excuses and refuse to get their hearts right with God though that is the path to social devolution.

            Keep identifying with apes like Hitler did with Darwinism. It just allows the law of the jungle which is lawlessness to prevail.

            Some people are more obedient and perceptive enough to lovingly submit to God and let Him build order in their chaotic souls.

            Others choose chaos because they refused to acknowledge and see God’s perspective or admit they never learned it like Richard Dawkins who once stated publicly that he hates priest’s language so he never comprehended God’s nature.

            Dawkins gave up on his own heart and mind’s spiritual development without even trying to understand God.

            Instead he made the scientific substitution of evolution for God’s explanation when anyone with half a brain knows God can do anything any way He wants to.

            Nothing is impossible with God as Christ said.

            I know God can do anything any way he wants to. But a limited human being who refuses to get his heart right with God can’t even comprehend God’s Word.

            Some people comprehend God’s Word better than others.

            Just because you are good at math or science doesn’t mean you are equally good at comprehending God’s Word.

            How could you have comprehended it if you refused to do God’s will?

            Atheists have a biblical literacy and comprehension problem.

            Don’t let the fact they can parrot back spiritual men’s thinking fool you.

            A person that truly comprehends God’s Word is obedient to it and in full enough personal agreement with it to perform God’s will.

            I hope you learn to biblically meditate and throw off the spiritual blindness that Satan seeks to keep you in.

            Then you will start exercising your freedom in a socially responsible manner that God approves of and makes you His child.

            Is there anything better than being God’s holy child?

            No. Nothing in this world is better than being like God’s firstborn holy child, Jesus.

            Christians are called saints by God for a reason.

          • Clancy

            The only reason we need laws is that our societies have become much larger and more complex than the extended family bands we evolved to be in.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            ‘Sin’ can’t exist without a ‘god’.

            You have YET to demonstrate this ‘god’.

            And yes, people do harmful, selfish things. We ALSO do helpful, exhilarating, generous things.

            That’s all just part of being human….no supernatural mumbo-jumbo required.

          • Matthew 22:37

            I see that you state the following about yourself:

            “Cradle atheist, apatheist type.”

            Well I believe I was a theist from the cradle. God touched me in my mother’s womb like Jeremiah said happened to him.

            What if the devil tried to separate you from God in your infancy?

            Pick up a copy of Anatomy of the Soul by Curt Thompson M.D. and read it.

            We are all born into a body of death but some are reborn spiritually and abide in God. Read John 3 and John 15 on it.

            Always know that you are loved by God then how can the devil steal you away permanently and keep you.

            But you still have to intellectually fight with your whole being to get free of sin and let God establish you as His child.

            Don’t ever let this evil world lie to you. You were meant to be a child of God so start by following Jesus and listening to him for a change.

            God is the greatest parent on earth and can transcend and correct any errors your earthly parents might have made in your upbringing. Thanks be to God.

            Hallelujah. Praise God. Now stop arguing and let Him put a hope and song in your heart.

          • Clancy

            The Devil does not exist, any more than Jesus. The questions you use religion to find “answers” to (where did the universe come from, what does it mean,how will it end) don’t interest me. That’s why I identify as an “apatheist”: I don’t care about those questions.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            I don’t care what you believe.

            I care what you can DEMONSTRATE.

            So demonstrate this ‘god’ or stop bothering *good* people about it, you lawyer and pharisee.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            You missed your flounce.

            Also, WE DON’T BELIEVE YOUR BOOK. So why do you think quoting it is *anything* besides an obvious sop to YOUR wounded ego?

        • From which blogsite was she banned ?

          • Clancy

            Roll to Disbelieve, linked below. You won’t see Matthew’s comments because our policy is to delete all comments by a bannee, but they were pretty much what you see here. We have a comment policy, also linked. Matthew was warned, and continued to violate it.
            https://www.patheos.com/blogs/rolltodisbelieve/2019/03/28/why-people-rightly-distrust-evangelical-research/
            https://www.patheos.com/blogs/rolltodisbelieve/the-roe/

          • It’s no wonder you banned her! She continually preachers her ideas with an air of oracular certainty under what she claims is exhorting. You warned her, but she still kept on violating the comment rules on your blog. She lies to us about this by claiming she was banned for speaking the truth, not for violating the comment rules.

          • Clancy

            All banning is supported by the Rules of Engagement. We’re careful about that, so we aren’t banning people simply for being disagreeing. Seeing the lie is what prompted me to comment here. I notice you gender her as female. How do you know?

          • Matthew 22:37

            Teachers teach what they know to be true. At least good teachers do.

          • Clancy

            Thank you.

          • Matthew 22:37

            God lives in my heart.

            You can deny it but you can’t disprove it. You don’t even have the experiential experience to comment on it but have the hubris to argue with people who are more experienced than yourself.

            You should have learned from Martin Rees not to take skeptics seriously on religion. He said Hawkings views on religion carried no weight as he read theology and philosophy very little.

            Anybody that seriously reads the Bible with a good heart motive accepts Jesus into their heart. Change proceeds from the inside outward.

            You never experienced the change so why comment on it.

          • Clancy

            I know many atheists who spent decades as fervent Christians. They finally saw it for the deception it is. Perhaps you can too.

          • Matthew 22:37

            I don’t know what lie they fell for but I would never be anything but a believer in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

            I think the fully dedicated Christian disciples are the best people in the world because they let God raise them right. They radiate social intelligence.

            If 10 people of equal skill and ability apply for the same job, the person with the most social intelligence will usually land the job. Read up on EQ. Goleman made that statement.

            The best Christians always ooze social intelligence. I believe that is what the fruit of the spirit is in a sense. Social intelligence.

            Thanks for the exchange. Time to break.

          • Clancy

            And yet you show no social intelligence all.

          • Matthew 22:37

            I am socially intelligent enough to know I should leave and will delete this account.

            “Bad company destroys good character” unless good character stands up to it.

          • Clancy

            That’s why I’m here, standing up to you.

          • Matthew 22:37

            Good bye.

            You should have repented. God will not despise a contrite heart.

            Here’s some evidence:
            http://www.bibletoday.com/ebook/Archaeology.pdf

            One great archaeologist’s faith was almost destroyed by bad bible scholarship but God restored it and an atheist son of atheists determined to disprove the Bible found out it is true.

            They didn’t let their biased heart motives interfere with collecting and interpreting the evidence that supports God.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            You’re still asserting based on premises we don’t accept.

            DEMONSTRATE these assertions have merit or don’t complain when we push vigorously back.

          • Matthew 22:37

            You are another atheist that followed a Christian so you could engage in the logical fallacy of an ad hominem attack.

          • Clancy

            If catching you in a lie is an ad hominem attack, I confess.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            More cargo cult blamesplaining.

            I’ll bet you couldn’t define ‘ad hominem’ without the benefit of the dictionary, and are just using the phrase to try and smear an opponent….amusing in an ironic sort of way.

          • So you don’t believe that your character is good enough to stand up for it. Otherwise, why are you threatening to leave?

          • So you are threatening to delete your account. Well, good riddens to bad rubbish! At least we won’t have to read all your delusional nonsense that you put forth. Perhaps you should take a visit to your local psychiatrist and have your mental well being assessed, while your at it.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            You’re pretty weak in self-awareness, too, on that topic.

            Also, attempting to cast aspersions in fine, polished language is cowardly.

          • Artor

            “The best Christians always ooze social intelligence.”

            BWA-HA-ha-ha-ha!!! I snorted out loud at that! Thanks for the laugh.

          • Matthew 22:37

            Ad hominem attacks are a logical fallacy.

            Did you just attack me with a logical fallacy while thinking you are superior in logic to me.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            Cargo cult arguing, there.

            Attacking an unutterably silly idea of yours is NOT an ad hominem attack *unless* it’s being used to discredit you in an unrelated field of discussion.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            Weeelllll, not wrong, in a way.

            The best good people would always be good….just *despite* xtianity, rather than *because* of it.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            I don’t know what lie they fell for

            Yes…yes, you DO.

            It’s called religion, xtianity in your case.

          • Artor

            God lives in my left ass cheek. You can deny it, but you can’t disprove it.

          • Matthew 22:37

            That’s blasphemy and I don’t think God wants me to read it.

            So you just earned a block.

          • Artor

            Gosh, I feel so special.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            It’s painfully obvious to us, and interesting in a clinical sort of way, the lengths to which you’ll go to defend your delusion.

            It’s also sardonically amusing how often this ‘god’ of yours agrees with YOU, rather than making you do things that you wouldn’t like or would be difficult, like giving up all you own and living as a mendicant.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            Uh, if this ‘god’ lives in your heart, you might want to be checked for insufficient blood circulation. I get the feeling it would take up a LOT of the volume in there.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            A point we agree on.

            Why do you say what you do is ‘true’?

          • She admitted many posts ago that she was an elderly lady.

          • Clancy

            She seems to have deleted her ID. I feel a little bad now. Just a little., but I’m pushing 70.

          • No need for you to feel bad for being honest. She is a lady full of lies and cannot, or will not, see how her lies are promoting an exit from Christianity.

            Don’t worry! She is likely to come back again under another moniker. I think that it is highly probable that she has done this before under several other monikers.

            Consider the probability that they are several different persons if they claim
            (1) They are a Christian universalist and each one argues the same way for Christian universalism.
            (2) Each one claims also to be an Evangelical Christian and they all argue in a similar way.
            (3) Each one presents videos with Pentecostals in them, yet claims not to be Pentecostal.
            (4) Each one believes in the millennium and the feast of tabernacles to precede the millennium.
            (4) Each one of them has avoided answering direct questions put to them by atheists.
            (5) Each one of them has an air of oracular certainty about what they say and has an attitude of being infallible because the claim to know God.

            There are very few Evangelical Christians who believe in universalism and when you combine the other points including their similarity of writing styles and other points mentioned above, I think that it is very highly probable that these are all the one person: the person who called herself Matthew 22:37 before she deleted her account

          • Clancy

            Thanks! I’ll share that with the other mods at Roll to Disbelieve. We don’t have a lot of tolerance for people like her over there.

          • Matthew 22:37

            Lol. I’m ordained. Of course, I exhort like any good teacher does.

          • Who ordained you? I doubt that you were trained in any reputable seminary.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            A good teacher doesn’t need to exhort, because such can interest a class without it.

            Exhortation is among the last refuges of the incompetent.

          • Matthew 22:37

            Teachers teach what they know.

          • Well your not a “teacher” of the bible because you know very little about modern Historical-critical methods for understanding the bible and you babble on with your Fundamentalist Christian views as if this makes you a ‘teacher”.

          • Matthew 22:37

            I am leaving and deleting the account tomorrow.

            I am not allowing anyone to turn me into a contentious person.

            I don’t have to prove anything to the determined to rebel against God.

            Read Acts 19 and the Book of Titus on it.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            You need to listen to Buckaroo Banzai…he had some wisdom for you:

            “No matter where you go….there you are.”

            You were not TURNED into a contentious person. You ARE a contentious person, unwilling to examine any evidence that would threaten your weak-minded, emotionally-wrought claims.

          • Artor

            Liars lie, because it’s all they know.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            Zealots vomit forth their delusions to the uninterested and unwilling.

            YOU are a zealot.

        • Matthew 22:37

          The Apostles Before the Council
          24When the captain of the temple guard and the chief priests heard this account, they were perplexed as to what was happening. 25Then someone came in and announced, “Look, the men you put in jail are standing in the temple courts, teaching the people!”

          26At that point, the captain went with the officers and brought the apostles—but not by force, for fear the people would stone them. 27They brought them in and made them stand before the Sanhedrin, where the high priest interrogated them. 28“We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name,” he said. “Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us responsible for this man’s blood.”

          29But Peter and the other apostles replied, “We must obey God rather than men. 30The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had killed by hanging Him on a tree. 31God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. 32We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

          From Acts 5 of the Berean Study Bible

          • Clancy

            Is this some justification for violating published community guidelines? If you’d stopped, we’d have let your comment stand, but you ignored the warning so it was deleted. Your rudeness harmed your witness.

          • Matthew 22:37

            I didn’t read the guidelines. I am used to obeying God and popping in discussing the Gospel wherever and whenever the Spirit gives me the impulse.

            I don’t look at things the way you do. God’s perspective takes precedence for me over a lot of things and I know He owns everything by right of creation even these blogs.

            Men can set up their limited authorities. They don’t trump God’s authority. That’s why some people are still delivering the Gospel performing the Great Commission in all sorts of closed societies. Like missionaries to Muslim dominated countries, etc.

            Duty to God is more imperative than duty to corrupt country or people y’know because the Gospel was given to help people escape corruption.

            Watch Bonhoeffer’s story:
            https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_TSq13VqJLQ

          • Clancy

            First, you were informed of the Rules of Engagement. Second, I’m aware of Dietrich Bonhoffer. Are you implying that Captain Cassidy and her commentariat are equivalent to Nazis? Are you aware of Godwin’s Law?

          • Matthew 22:37

            Nope.

          • Clancy
          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            So you consider our desire to be left alone to live our lives without your poisonous lies to be the moral equivalent of the Nazi regime that Bonhoeffer opposed?

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            “What does a ‘god’ need with a STARship??!!” Capt. James T. Kirk

            See?

            I can quote fiction, too…and it matters just as little.

        • Matthew 22:37

          I will probably just write off all atheists as set in their ways and not talk to any on religion any more.

          They can seek God on their own anyway. Seeking is God’s preferred method.

          Atheists just make positive claims they cannot back up.

          Read Andy Bannister’s blog on it.

          No response necessary. I’ve already heard them all.

          Oh and yes I’ve heard of Godwin’s Law I just forgot it was called that.

          • Clancy

            We have many regular commenters that are not atheists. The defect is not in us, it is in your foolishness. Damaging your witness yet again. Sure sounds like you’re arguing, which you said you don’t do. Another lie, it seems.

  • Clancy

    You received these replies referring to the Rules of Engagement. You again shown to be a liar. Plus, if you are referred to a comment policy, common sense would be to read it. You’ve damaged your witness yet again.

    Glandu Matthew 22:37
    2 days ago
    rule one : don’t proselytize here.

    How can your God expect you to respect his rules when you don’t respect the rules of places you are visiting?

    Azel Matthew 22:37
    2 days ago
    Ok, stop right there. Unless you pony up evidence of your god’s existence, Christianity’s truth and all — and good luck finding that — you are violating RoE 1 № & 2. Here’s your warning.

    Azel Matthew 22:37
    2 days ago
    Well, off you go. Too bad you prefer being a boor to having a shot at conversing but utterly failing the Great Commission you believe your Messiah gave you is on you, not us.

    • Matthew 22:37

      I didn’t pony up the evidence? God gave general revelation as the evidence. Read Romans 1.

      God also gave evidence in the heavens through the constellations.

      Archaeologists locate evidence all the time.

      Brain researchers and psychiatrists are proving the wisdom of the Bible now.

      You just don’t seek for evidence outside your own limited circle and narrow definitions.

      Simon Greenleaf is an eyewitness evidence expert and explained why the testimony of the 4 evangelists was accurate. He set out to disprove them but came away convinced they were telling the truth.

      • Clancy

        You can’t use the Bible to prove the Bible. The archaeological evidenced you’ve mentioned is debunked on Snopes. Bart Ehrmam has debunked Simon Greenleaf on his blog.

        • Matthew 22:37

          Witherington debunked Ehrman.

          The Bible is still used as an ancient history reference by historians. It is historically accurate.

          • Clancy

            Even if I grant that, it cannot be used to support its own supernatural claims.

          • Matthew 22:37

            Look religions don’t start without founders and there are no accounts written close to the time of Jesus claiming he didn’t exist.

            So a denial of his existence later on in history is a rationalization not based in fact.

          • Clancy

            There are accounts of Classical gods from earlier, yet they don’t exist.

          • Matthew 22:37

            Look examine yourself.

            All these doubts and questions could be you wrestling with your conscience.

            Wrestling can be a sign that your heart is not right with God.

            Turning everything into gray so you can no longer identify right from wrong is intellectual moral confusion.

            This world doesn’t need to lower it’s standards to moral relativity lows. It needs higher standards and the golden role model of Jesus.

            It is better to examine yourself before your conscience is seared.

            Have a blessed day.

          • Clancy

            You assume i have doubts. I do not. I am not a deconvert who still has religious indoctrination in the back of my head.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            I smell projection as fetid as rotting chicken manure.

            WE are comfortable with our positions…but have to constantly be ready to defend against YOUR KIND’s aggressive incursions.

            That *really* should tell you something.

          • Matthew 22:37

            Some of those false earlier gods could have been Satan.

            Read up on the Pergamum Altar. It was moved from Turkey to Germany in the 1900s. They have pictures of Hitler making speeches in front of it in Nuremberg.

            The Pergamun altar was dedicated to Zeus yet the Book of Revelation calls it Satan’s altar.

            Satan fell like a lightning bolt when Jesus sent out the first disciples.

            Read up on Nebuchadnezzar. The tablet verifying the biblical account of this king of Babylon eating grass is on a tablet stored in the British museum.

          • Clancy

            And Noah is inspired by the Epic of Gilgamesh. Even if historical facts made it into the Bible, the supernatural content is myth.

          • Matthew 22:37

            Nothing is impossible with God.

            If God can create a world you don’t think he could make an animal talk?

            You need to go back to the atheist blog. You have limited your own mind by your skepticism. It promotes spiritual blindness thinking like that.

            That is the problem with people. They always try to limit and over define Him.

            He’s the potter. You as a created being are the clay. Let Him define you.

          • Clancy

            Think what you like. I only commented here because you lied about why you were banned.

          • Matthew 22:37

            You projected an evil on me I did not commit. I don’t see or experience things from your perspective so how did I lie by mentioning I was banned.

            I was banned. Your criticism does not deny the fact that that blog has totalitarian standards.

          • Clancy

            If you had heeded the warnings, your comments there would still be standing. Many Christian blogs are similarly “totalitarian”. Did you ever read the Rules of Engagement? Captain Cassidy provides her justifications for them.

          • Matthew 22:37

            I do not mind being banned. It’s more important to me to obey the Lord then it is to be socially accepted.

          • Clancy

            But if you weren’t banned, your comment would be sitting there, witnessing to us for years. So your combativeness destroyed your witness.

          • Matthew 22:37

            I don’t consider telling the truth combative.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            What truth?

            You made a bunch of unsupported assertions, and refused to provide support or retract them when asked by your host at RtD.

            Is that behavior you’d accept in your own domicile?

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            So ‘the ends justify the means’, then?

            That can excuse ANY behavior…do you really want to go down that road?

          • Artor

            I see you lying right here and now. It’s as plain as day, liar.

          • She’s a liar for Jeebus!

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            ™…

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            You disregarded the rules, following xtianity’s nasty rule of thumb that “the ends justify the means.”

            THEN you have the effrontery to act aggrieved when you are punished for violating the rules.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            Nothing is impossible with God.

            Then it’s useless as an explanation.

            He’s the potter. You as a created being are the clay. Let Him define you.

            Nope. I leave abusers, even mythical abusers, behind.

          • Funny that you are looking for contemporary denials, not corroborations. Too bad for you, by this standard Muhammad, Buddha and Rama all exist. Hell, for the former we have a work purportedly from him which is more than we can say about Rama…or Jesus.

          • Matthew 22:37

            We have corroborations.

          • You were the one to choose to go the route that there are no denials, not me. And contemporary ones? I rather doubt that one but shoot.
            P.S.: And before you go down that path, neither Josephus nor the gospels are contemporary: as regards the gospels, Mark is usually dated to one or two generations after Jesus’s death and is usually seen as the earliest. And for Josephus, even discounting the issues with him, he wasn’t even born on the traditional date of Jesus’s death so isn’t contemporary either. Also, you were the one to choose that contemporary thing.
            P.P.S.: You did say close to, not contemporary so the error’s mine on this one. It still makes you going for no denials a bad idea but contemporaneity isn’t a requirement you put. My bad.

          • Matthew 22:37

            The Talmud and Tacitus as well as Josephus and possibly others.

            The Pharisees should have been the first to declare if he did not live but they did not.

            So we have corroboration he lived and no accounts that he did not.

            Oral tradition was quite remarkable in the ancient Middle East. Read Kenneth E. Bailey’s article:
            Informal Controlled Oral Tradition and the Synoptic Gospels
            https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/article_tradition_bailey.html

          • Tacitus is a good choice: he shows mostly that Christians existed but does serves as corroboration for the figure/role of Christ. Problem for you is, then so do Byzantine polemics of the figure of Islam’s prophet (some within a generation of Muhammad’s death even!). He’s not exactly close — 80 years after, give or take — but oh well. The Talmud is not that good of one: we don’t really know when the parts related to Jesus were put in after all: for all we know it’s towards the end of the composition of the Mishnah and that’s more than a century after the facts, not close in the slightest (now is not close to the First World War). Josephus is however a rather bad choice given that we have early Christians with every reason to cite Josephus talking of Jesus who either don’t say a word — Justin Martyr — or tell us that Josephus wasn’t seeing Jesus as Chrst — Origen. In short, the passages were probably forged. Now, to which extent…

            Why would they? Even admitting they would want to go for a denial of his existence — something I don’t think you see all that often in religious polemics against other religions’ figures: cf. the Christian polemics against Islam. They deny that Muhammad had divine revelations, accuse him of being the Antichrist, accuse him of leading Muslims to idol worship but rarely if ever deny his existence — would such be transmitted to us? Also, more importantly, they could just decide to take in the chief figure of the offshoot religion in an antagonist/negative role: Christianity did with Muhammad in countless polemics, Hinduism did with Buddha in the Puranas… Whose to say Jesus’s mentions in the Talmud isn’t that?

            I did. And I note that while oral tradition is rather remarkable in the area, that doesn’t exactly help you with that on your own arguments, Islam is also true and possibly Buddhism as well. And Hinduism, just for kicks.

          • Matthew 22:37

            I am not arguing. You asked for corroboration and I gave it.

            If I were you I would stop arguing. It puts you in an adversarial position against God and that is not a good place to be.

            Start seeking. Arguing is the false shortcut that is loaded with errors and misassumptions and word games.

            Paul said philosophy is vain and separated himself from the obstinate who objected and refused to seek the truth. Read Acts 19.

            Islam and Mormonism are both refuted by Galatians 1.

            Hinduism says the world rests on the backs of turtles or elephants or some such nonsence.

            But the Bible says the earth hangs in the atmosphere.

            The Bible mentions the atom with the seen coming from the unseen.

            Still the Bible is not and was never intended to be a science text.

          • Sure, which I appreciate. It’s not all that good but the effort is appreciated.

            Meh, the devas are big guys and gals. They won’t throw a tantrum just because I was arguing. (Any which does are not worthy of my patronage in the first place)

            I have read the Bible often enough: it has good parts sure. A lot of chaff to sort through though. And that point about philosophy, Islam & co? First you have to prove the relevant parts of the Bible true for that one. Good luck.

            Hey, if you want to treat mythic history and metaphor literally, you’re on slippery ground: the Bible has Earth being flat, the Sun revolving around the Earth and the skies being a solid thing. Might be good not to throw stones in a glass house. And in the “things Hinduism got and the Bible failed at” part, for a change: the Bible has Earth (and the universe) being very young whereas in Hinduism they are very old.

            Sure, neither are the Vedas. Why do you impugn them on these grounds then?

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower
          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            Nope.

            Post-hoc fraudulent insertions into the writings of well-known authors, stolen credibility.

          • Artor

            There are no present claims that my D&D character doesn’t exist, therefore he exists. Wow, that doesn’t sound any less stupid when I say it.

          • Matthew 22:37

            You deny the existence of God, you deny Jesus, you deny the authority of scripture and you do all this serving your own heart motive.

            Best examine yourself, son.

            A bad heart motive can result in an evil confirmation bias.

            That people sin (commit crimes) is irrefutable. There are prisons all over the world filled with people with bad heart motives that commit evil acts and those people come out of the general population.

            Some sinners just don’t get caught.

          • Clancy

            Are you saying I’m a criminal!? On what evidence?

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            You deny your burden of ‘proof’ (evidence) to *demonstrate* the existence of this ‘god’.

          • Witherington did not debunk Ehrman. He simply disagrees with him and gives his reasons why. Witherington has the rose coloured glasses of Evangelicalism on when he interprets the bible. Ehrman, being a bible teacher at an independent university doesn’t need to wear the same glasses as Witherington and , unlike Witherington, is not obliged to hold to any doctrinal statement as a condition of his employment.

          • Matthew 22:37

            I bet you did not even read what Witherington said.

            Callings are from God.

            Seminaries don’t produce callings.

          • But those seminaries and universities which adopt historical-critical methods of biblical interpretation do produce biblical scholarship without which you cannot understand the bible properly.

          • Matthew 22:37

            You don’t know everything.

          • Well, I’ve never claimed to be omniscient.

          • Matthew 22:37

            Well don’t ever fall for the thinking of a lazy skeptic because nobody knows what he can do until he tries.

            And that requires perseverance.

          • What nonsense are you babbling now?

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            Well, then you’re a lazy theist because I have YET to hear of any of y’all moving mountains with your minds and a ‘mustard seed’ of faith.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            Irrelevant.

            Answer the challenge.

          • Artor

            “Callings are from God.”

            Do you have any evidence to indicate this is true? Because I’ve never found it to be so.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            Start by demonstrating this ‘god’, then.

            Otherwise you’re flailing around in invalid circular logic.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            Then why is Tyre still standing?

        • Matthew 22:37

          And Ehrman is an outlier.

          The mainstream of biblical scholarship disagrees with him.

          • Clancy

            Ok, this conversation is done, since neither of us will admit the validity of the others sources.

          • The mainstream of biblical scholarship does not disagree with Bart Ehrman, only on his agnosticism in relation to God. What Ehrman does is take what most of the leading biblical scholars at leading seminaries hold to and writes it in simple language that laymen can understand it. Perhaps it’s too difficult for you to understand, but with your low intellect I wouldn’t be surprised.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            Reality isn’t a democratic process.

            What is demonstrable wins, not how many people believe it.

      • Michael Neville

        The Epistle to the Romans was Paul selling his new religion to pagans. It’s a sales pitch and, like pretty much all salesmen, Paul was rather elastic with the truth about the product.

        The constellations are artificial. Besides, that argument smells strongly of astrology. “”All the counsel you have received has only worn you out. Let your astrologers come forward, those stargazers who make predictions month by month, let them save you from what is coming upon you. Surely they are like stubble; the fire will burn them up. They cannot even save themselves from the flame. Each of them goes on in his error; there is not one that can save you.” Isaiah 47:13-15 (NIV)

        Archeology does not provide evidence for the Bible. I notice you’re pushing the “chariot wheels in the Red Sea” nonsense. That was debunked when it was first put out 15 years ago and it’s just as wrong now as it was then.

        Your “brain researchers and psychologists” is so utter vague as to be meaningless. Try again, this time with something more than a ambiguous statement that doesn’t actually say anything.

        As Clancy noted below, Greenleaf was debunked by Ehrman.

        In short, you don’t have anything even remotely like evidence. But that’s not surprising, Christians have been trying to scrape up evidence for over 2000 years and come up short every time.

        • Matthew 22:37

          I don’t think Ehrman can debunk Greenleaf. They come from totally different backgrounds and a bible scholar is not as capable at assessing eyewitness testimony as a law professor who is an expert on legal testimony is.

          As for the brain research and psychiatrists you could have asked for who and read their research conclusions. Your objection on this point is too vague to pass as a viable objection.

          • Michael Neville

            You like Greenleaf because he says things you like. You don’t like Ehrman because he shows that Greenleaf doesn’t know what he’s talking about. As for “eyewitness testimony”, none of the four evangelicals were eyewitnesses to Jesus, so that “evidence” is a complete non-starter. Sorry, you failed again

            I could have asked what you mean with your meaningless spiel about brain researchers but why should I bother? None of your other “evidence” is worth a buckle of warm spit, so why should a non sequitur about brain researchers be any different? If you expect people to accept your feeble attempt to provide evidence, then you have to actually provide evidence, not just toss out cryptic sentences that don’t say anything.

            So come back when you’ve got real evidence, not meaningless bafflegab or nonsense that was refuted years ago.

          • Matthew 22:37

            I haven’t read Ehrman on Greenleaf but he’s not a legal testimony expert like Greenleaf is.

            Besides Witherington and the weight of bible scholarship refute Ehrman.

            A real child of God doesn’t crack like Ehrman did. Hopefully, he sees the light and repents someday.

            You can read Curt Thompson’s book on infant attachment and the Caroline Leaf’s book Switch on Your Brain. Plus Born Believer by Justin Barrett.

            Thompson is a psychiatrist.

            Leaf and Barrett are neuroscientists.

            Curt Thompson’s book is endorsed by noted brain expert Daniel Siegel, MD.

            Francis Collins, the DNA expert, wrote The Language of God.

            Be sure to seek out the evidence for yourself.

            There are a lot of lazy skeptic atheists who don’t put the work in locating the evidence. They just consult inexpert people who may be wrong or lying.

            Richard Dawkins lied about Einstein being an atheist. Jammer tells the truth that Einstein was not an atheist in his biography.

            Dawkins also ripped off semiotics and renamed it memetics.

            Check it all out for yourself.

            Why be deceived like the rest of the lazy skeptics that never put in the work.

          • Michael Neville

            I haven’t read Ehrman on Greenleaf but he’s not a legal testimony expert like Greenleaf is.

            Ehrman is a Biblical scholar, which Greenleaf isn’t. Since Greenleaf is making a claim about the Bible, then being refuted by a real Biblical expert means more than being a lawyer. As I said before, you like what Greenleaf says because you agree with it. You don’t like what Ehrman says because he shows that Greenleaf doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

            Besides Witherington and the weight of bible scholarship refute Ehrman

            No they don’t. See, I can make unsupported claims too.

            A real child of God doesn’t crack like Ehrman did.

            Does the term ad hominem mean anything to you? How about “No True Scotsman”?

            You can read Curt Thompson’s book on infant attachment and theCaroline Leaf’s book Switch on Your Brain. Plus Born Believer by Justin Barrett. Thompson is a psychiatrist. Leaf and Barrett are neuroscientists. Curt Thompson’s book is endorsed by noted brain expert Daniel Siegel, MD. Francis Collins, the DNA expert, wrote The Language of God.

            David Drake wrote Hammer’s Slammers. Drake is a Vietnam War veteran. Those two statements are as meaningful as the books and authors you’ve mentioned.

            Einstein said that he didn’t believe in gods, which means that he was an atheist. And who cares what someone else believed?

            Dawkins also ripped off semiotics and renamed it memetics.

            Another ad hominem. You do like to use that logical fallacy.

            You’re not very good at giving evidence. Instead of real arguments and logic you toss out bumpersticker phrases

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            David Drake wrote Hammer’s Slammers. Drake is a Vietnam War veteran. Those two statements are as meaningful as the books and authors you’ve mentioned.

            Except that David Drake is a good writer, and actually shows insight into the human condition.

            🙂

          • Michael Neville

            I’m a fan of Drake and I’m presently rereading one of his Leary-Mundy books, that’s why I thought of him. He wrote Hammer’s Slammers in part to express his horror of war (something that his detractors don’t seem to understand).

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            Expressed pretty well in the words he puts on so many of his characters’ mouths: “Fuck it. Drive on…don’t mean nuthin’…”

          • Matthew 22:37

            Google Materialism is Flawed on Paul Davies site and read it. You know the Templeton Prize winning astrophysicist.

            Also check out his proof of God section.

            At one time Davies believed in scientism but changed to say God does exist.

          • Michael Neville

            The Templeton Prize is given to scientists who make religious statements or bash atheism. It’s meaningless, other than the prize winner gets $1.5 million. So basically it shows that a scientist can say things to impress rich people to give him money.

            When a Christian evangelical uses the word “scientism” they just mean that science doesn’t agree with their religious beliefs. I’ve been around you evangelicals long enough to learn some of the jargon.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            At a guess, this ‘paul davies’ is conflating philosophical & methodological materialism.

            Which makes him a fraud, right up front.

          • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

            Your beliefs are irrelevant.

            Read it without preconceptions and see what you think.

          • Meepestos

            “Read it without preconceptions and see what you think.”

            We can’t have that ; )

            If she or he can discipline themselves to stop serving their underlying preconceptions, puts aside their attempts at trying to validate the bible, and scrutinize their bible more objectively, they are most likely to gravitate towards agnosticism or even atheism. I’ve seen this happen over the last 30 plus years especially to ordained priests with a tertiary education like those with a Th.d. I wonder how many members of the clergy project became atheists this way.

        • Matthew 22:37

          The Gospel account is told in the stars as the Psalms proclaim.

          Too bad the world never learned the Gospel is in the stars and fall for the fake zodiac in the newspaper.

          That is evidence people cannot tamper with.

          • Michael Neville

            That’s poetic metaphor. You really are stretching to get some sort of evidence and, as before, you’re failing miserably. Come back when you’ve got real evidence, not poetry.

    • Matthew 22:37

      You can google Paul Davies proof of God and “Materialism is Flawed” article on his site philosophy-of-science dot com.

      • Clancy

        That website does not exist.

      • Clancy

        Found it once you corrected the spelling. Even if I admitted the Kalam Cosmological Arguement, that only supports a Deistic God. It doesn’t prove the God of the Bible.

      • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

        Is that the same tripe you offered up repeatedly before being banned as a boor over on RtD?