5 Things I Wish Conservative Christians Understood About Muslims

5 Things I Wish Conservative Christians Understood About Muslims June 7, 2017

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Conservative Christians seem to have a lot of opinions about Islam and our Muslim neighbors.

Those opinions are often grossly misinformed at best.

I’ve met very few conservative Christians who have spent any considerable amount of time in friendships with Muslims; it’s also true that I’ve rarely met an overly anti-Islamic conservative Christian who has studied Islam beyond reading some sketchy articles on Facebook. The net result of this is the perpetuation of stereotype, misunderstanding, and outright bearing false witness against our Muslim neighbors both here and abroad.

Case in point is a recent post from Franklin Graham, which paints an entire religion with the broad brush of stereotype:

“Since 9/11, I have been warning America about the dangers of the teachings of Islam. Followers of Islam are taught very troubling passages that encourage them to murder and maim those they refer to infidels, or nonbelievers. With the internet and social media, radicalization is only increasing—and the dangers are continuing to increase. Many times, sadly, it is the young who are pulled into these teachings that encourage murder and rape in the name of the god of Islam. We saw the results again Saturday night in London with 7 killed and more than 48 wounded by Muslim men who said this was for Allah. That is three Islamic terror attacks in the country in less than three months. The threat of Islam is real. The threat of Islam is serious. The threat of Islam is dangerous. There is cause for concern, despite what some may say. We need to pray that God would give our President, our Congress, and our Senate wisdom—and the guts to do what is right for our nation, and not what’s politically correct. My prayer is that the United States—and the UK—will wake up before it’s too late.”

In light of how my conservative brothers and sisters so often spread stereotype and misinformation; having spent several years studying Islam in seminary, and having spent time in a Muslim context both in the U.S, and overseas (I’ve even gone to my local Mosque where I was welcomed hospitably), I find myself wishing conservative Christians understood these 5 things about Muslims:

1. Muslims love Jesus.

I don’t know how to make this more clear: you can’t be a good Muslim if you don’t love Jesus. Jesus is one of the most honored people in Islam, and the Quran affirms many of the key beliefs that orthodox Christians hold dear. As I stated in a previous article on Islam:

“Islam teaches that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, that he never sinned, that he was full of the Holy Spirit, that he performed miracles including healing the sick and raising the dead, that he was a word of God, that the true Gospel was given to him, that he was miraculously taken up to heaven, that he is coming back one day to rule in peace and justice after slaying the antichrist, and that those who follow Jesus will be raised to Allah at the resurrection.”

That alone, along with our shared Scripture, makes Muslims more similar to us than any other world religion, including Judaism.

2. Muslims are some of the most hospitable people you’ll ever meet.

People often say to me, “Oh yeah, well go to an Islamic country and see how you’re treated.” The reality is I’ve done that and discovered that kindness and hospitality in the Muslim world far surpasses anything you’d experience in America. With all the things I was taught to fear about Muslims, the truth I discovered was that I have never experienced radical hospitality and kindness the way I do when I am among Muslims.

People who think Muslims are angry and full of hate have likely never met a Muslim, because when you do, they’ll often invite you over for dinner and treat you like an honored guest. Hospitality toward strangers is one of the most prominent attributes you’ll experience in the Muslim world.

3. Most Muslims do not view Christians or Jews as “infidels”, nor are they instructed to kill us.

The idea that Christians and Jews are “infidels” is inconsistent with mainstream Islam, and so is the idea that Muslims are to kill us. The Quran doesn’t refer to us as infidels (mushrikin) at all, but actually refers to us as “people of the book” (Ahl al-Kitab). Were a Muslim to call Christians or Jews infidels, this would place them outside of the mainstream. All religions have their extremists, but that doesn’t mean they represent the whole.

Moreover, the Quran doesn’t issue a blanket injunction to kill all unbelievers (mushrikin). Yes, it records some ancient warfare where mushrikin were to be killed, but this would be the equivalent to the Old Testament recording an injunction that Israel was to take the land and slaughter even the women and children who got in their way.

Disturbing? Certainly. But to act like the Quran teaches Muslims to slaughter all infidels today, would be the equivalent of saying that the Christian Bible commands us to slaughter and destroy anyone who is occupying the land of Israel, simply because we find that in the Old Testament. (Oh, wait- now that I think about that, we as Christians actually do often support that.)

4. Killing innocent people, and being a suicide bomber, are both actions that the Islamic religion forbids.

Does Islam teach it’s okay to kill innocent people? No, it doesn’t. In fact the Quran actually says this: “Whoso kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind.”

Furthermore, the entire idea of being a suicide bomber as a way to martyrdom is at complete odds with Islam, as the Quran teaches that Muslims must not kill oneself (surah 4:29, and 2:195).

5. Muslims are most often the victims of terrorism.

If folks like Franklin Graham were correct, and if terrorism is all about Muslims hating us, we would expect to see “freedom-loving Christians” as being the typical victims of terrorism– but that’s not the case. The typical victims of terrorism are Muslims– we just don’t see it because seven people killed in London gets more air time than when 60 Muslims are blown up in Kabul.

Muslims, instead of being the average terrorist, are actually the average victims of terrorism.

We should be coming along side our Muslim neighbors, we should grieve with them, and support them– because they are under attack from extremists more than anyone else.

For all the harsh and broad brush opinions on Muslims and the religion of Islam, it’s tragic that so many conservative Christians base their opinions on very little fact or first-hand knowledge or experience.

Having spent so much time studying Islam and spending time with real-life, flesh-and-blood Muslim neighbors, I grieve over that fact– because my Muslim neighbors are actually the kindest, most hospitable people I know.


unafraid 300Dr. Benjamin L. Corey is a public theologian and cultural anthropologist who is a two-time graduate of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary with graduate degrees in the fields of Theology and International Culture, and holds a doctorate in Intercultural Studies from Fuller Theological Seminary. He is also the author of the new book, Unafraid: Moving Beyond Fear-Based Faith, which is available wherever good books are sold. www.Unafraid-book.com. 

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  • Scott Crooks

    Am I missing something, or is #4 mis-stated? With the use of the word “unless,” It almost reads like murder and wreaking corruption on the land is acceptable. So, if I read this article correctly, then the only thing (and it is a big thing) that Islam denies is that Jesus is the Son of God, and also God incarnate. Thanks for sharing this article. Enlightening.

  • otrotierra

    Thank you Dr. Corey. This should be required reading for U.S. white evangelicals and every follower of Franklin Graham’s xenophobic, fear-mongering gospel.

  • jekylldoc

    Can you recommend a more comprehensive discussion? I am satisfied that ISIS is not following the Koran, but I would like to see a good review of the mainstream Islamic case against extremism and terrorism.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    I think it means you can’t kill unless as *punishment* for murder etc.

  • Matthew

    Is the idea that moderate Muslims don’t speak out against Islamic extremists a myth?

  • Jellyfish Sorbet

    Are there particular resources you could recommend for those of us who want to learn more about Islam?

  • Carrie Bartoldus

    This is a wonderful article. Thank you, Benjamin Corey, for writying it. The Baha’i Faith, which is a world religion, also shares the Christian and Muslim belief in Jesus Christ.

  • Carrie Bartoldus

    Not all Christian sects agree on those points, either. The Quran neither denies nor affirms those points.
    https://www.quora.com/Are-there-any-branches-of-the-Christian-faith-which-dont-believe-in-Jesus-to-be-the-son-of-God-and-or-part-of-the-God-triune

  • Daniel Boulet

    Take a look at the many news articles in the last few days reporting that Muslim clerics in and around London are refusing to provide a proper Muslim burial for the three attackers in this past weekend’s attack. That Muslims are both opposed and appalled at these attacks is an undeniable fact if one just choses to see (this is not aimed at you but is a commentary on the many Muslim critics and such who seem to have already made up their minds and are not interested in actually seeing what is going on).

  • Sally Scheib

    Thank you for a wonderful article. I do not have your wide experience, but my limited experience affirms what you say.

  • Nimblewill

    ….and yet you write an article putting all conservative Christians in one basket.

  • Dean

    I think it would be helpful to talk about Islam and modernity. I definitely don’t like how conservative Christians talk about Islam and other religions in general, however, it is difficult not to see the impact of Islamic radicalism across the globe. There is a map that you can pull up that shows all the places where there is currently military conflict in the world and you’ll see that a lot of the “hot spots” involved Muslims, either Muslims against other Muslims or Muslims and non-Muslims. It’s hard to argue that there is not something going on with respect to Islam on a global scale, and this is coming from a self-proclaimed progressive. Additionally, I am very disappointed in liberals in general when they don’t speak out against the treatment of women and minorities in these societies. It is absolutely a disgrace and there is no excuse for it. There is no “religious exemption” for prejudice and oppression. I don’t care what religion you are and it is our obligation as both Christians and progressives to speak out against these societies and bring them into the modern world. Before I get lectured, I understand that a lot of the misogyny in the Muslim world is culturally based, but seriously guys, even in Indonesia, which is often cited as the model for moderate Islam, you have a lot of crazy people talking about taking their societies backward. We really need to make it clear that this country accepts people of all religions but we reject sexism and racism in any form, regardless of whether it comes from conservative Christians or conservative Muslims. We talk a lot of hypocrisy coming from the right but I really feel like this is the same thing.

  • Matt Woodling

    I want Muslims to have every right everyone else has. I want Muslim refugees to be let into this country. I’m fine with Muslim immigrants in my neighborhood.

    That being said, here is my response to this article…

    1. Muslims love Jesus

    Good for you, good for them. To many of us, that means nothing and it isn’t a comfort.

    2. Muslims are some of the most hospitable people you’ll ever meet.

    Some are, some aren’t. Like every other group I can think of. Arabs are known for extremely generous hospitality in their homes.

    3. Most Muslims do not view Christians or Jews as “infidels”, nor are they instructed to kill us.

    I think you’re right – most don’t. Lots and lots do, depending on the country.

    4. Killing innocent people, and being a suicide bomber, are both actions that the Islamic religion forbids.

    Lots of Muslims don’t think this is the case. 5% to 90%, depending on the country (Pew Research). And in those countries where that % is high, most DO believe that people should be killed for things we in the US would consider non-crimes – like adultery, like women who are accused of being raped by 4 or more witnesses, anyone who denounces Islam and gives up the faith, anyone who depicts Mohammed in an image, anyone who bad-mouths anything that Muslims consider sacred.

    5. Muslims are most often the victims of terrorism.

    Very true. They are attacked and killed by other Muslims who think they’re the wrong kind of Muslim – labeling the victims as infidels.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    There is something going on with Islam: as I understand it the problem is specific to a particular fundamentalist form of Islam called Wahhabism, with its origins in, and more importantly receiving vast funding from, Saudi Arabia, which is pushing out moderate mainstream Islam and creating constant conflict in the process. It is the most extreme versions of this brand of Islam which is promoting terrorist ideology. There is also some evidence ISIS itself may be receiving Saudi funds.
    https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-qa-is-saudi-arabia-funding-isis
    (PS In the unlikely but possible event of a change in government in tomorrow’s UK elections, the UK report referred to above into ISIS funding may well be released: that would be interesting.)

  • jimoppenheimer

    In all fairness, mainstream Muslims do in fact speak out, but our media are not covering it, I presume because it doesn’t fit with their narrative. You can, if you know how to use a search engine, find a number of articles on the web that report the reactions of Muslim leaders against the terrorism.

  • ashpenaz

    Muslims believe Jesus is the Word of God. I don’t see any difference between Muslim Christology and the Christology of Brian McLaren, Marcus Borg, Anne Lamott, or any number of prominent Christians I admire. Many Christians, following Schleiermacher, Tillich, Bultmann, Rahner, Kung, Chittister, Baker Eddy, etc., think of the Incarnation as the man Jesus revealing God to the world due to his close relationship with God. Anabaptists don’t require adherence to the Nicene Creed, seeing it as a distortion of doctrine under the state control of Constantine, and many Anabaptist thinkers come close to Muslim Christology. In fact, Islam and Anabaptism both claim to be a path back to the original revelation which had been lost after the Empire took control.

  • Roger Morris

    Christians need to heed the words of Sam Harris and Majaad Nawaz about the propensity of Islamic doctrine to be utilized to support violent jihadism. That does not mean that individual Muslims aren’t lovely people. One of my groomsman years ago was a Muslim.

    But everyone, including the author, must acknowledge that there is something inherent in Islamic doctrine – over and above Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh, Jainist and other religious doctrine – that can quite easily and justifiably be co-opted to promote and support violent, jihadist terrorism. The stats on terrorism bear this fact out. Time to admit it.

  • Timothy Hawk

    My experience with Muslims parallel yours. One of my dearest and most loyal friends is a Muslim Imam.

    I would add to your statement that Muslims love Jesus is the fact that you can’t be Muslim without believing that Jesus was the Messiah. Hmmm.

  • insanedieg0

    I think it’s important to point out the New Testament also has a verse about killing nonbelievers. It’s important because most Christians will tell you the Old Testament is not their book as much as it is for Jews. Their book is the New Testament.

  • Patrick

    Different groups of Muslims believe different things regarding Jesus, his followers, jihad, etc.

    And when you say Muslims love Jesus, honor may be right, but “love,” that’s an overstatement to the degree of hyperbole.

  • Patrick

    “Most Christians” would be Marcionites then in your view.

  • Patrick
  • Stephen

    Where is the New Testament verse about killling unbelievers?

  • highinterest

    #4 completely ignores the view of many (not all) Muslims that not being a Muslim IS “wreaking corruption in the land”.

  • JustMe

    Unless or until Muslims denounce the ‘radical’ element of Islam (they won’t because they have a bounty on their head if they leave Islam), keeping one’s head in the sand is cultural suicide. Period. –> The Muslim Brotherhood’s Strategic Plan For North America – Court Document (1991) https://clarionproject.org/Muslim_Brotherhood_Explanatory_Memorandum/

  • What *exactly* is Franklin Graham asking us to do when we “wake up before it’s too late”? Mass internment? Genocide? Sending 3rd generation immigrants back to their grandparents’ homelands? We need to know!

  • Stephen

    On point One: Muslims Love Jesus.
    It’s true that Jesus (referred to as Isa) features more prominently in the Quran than Muhammad but this is not the Jesus of the New Testament Gospels. The Jesus of the Quran denies being the Son of God, rejects those who worship him as such, considers such worship as blasphemy against Allah and never died on the cross for the sins of the world.
    This is not a Jesus who is Lord and Saviour.
    Because Jesus is the only way to the Father by teaching a different Jesus the Quran condemns all who accept what it teaches about Jesus to hell. This is tragic.
    “You happily put up with whatever anyone tells you, even if they preach a different Jesus than the one we preach, or a different kind of Spirit than the one you received, or a different kind of gospel than the one you believed.”
    ‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭11:4‬ ‭NLT‬‬
    http://bible.com/116/2co.11.4.nlt

  • Muslims do not believe Jesus is divine let alone God. This alone makes them non-christian and as far away from Christianity as any other non-christian religion.

    Certain Muslims do believe that they are to kill us, the infidels, which is why they are killing people on such a regular basis. Arguing about whether the Koran teaches killing infidels is pedantic since Muslims are killing people and believe they should be doing that.

  • Kathy Ruth

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  • Kathy Ruth

    As there is in Christian theology. That’s why we inflicted the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem witch trials, slavery, etc etc. etc. on the world!

  • Stephen

    Jesus commands his followers to love their enemies while Muhammad via the Quran commands Muslims to fight against the unbelievers.
    Violence is contrary to the way of Jesus but consistent with the way of Muhammad as taught in the Quran.

  • Weesue

    Look up Douglas Murray https://g.co/kgs/uZvNIJ and listen to him on Youtube…

  • Stephen

    Brilliant answer. Thank you

  • kweschns

    muslims do revere jesus as a messenger of god but disapprove of its worship as a divine creature this way [9:30] “Christians say, “He is the son of Allah .” That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?”

    that sounds nothing out of ordinary by biblical standards but can hardly be interpreted as benign neglect or goodwill.

  • kweschns

    in fact, many religious muslims quite openly say these things rightly believing they are spreading the truth. I think that’s how conquistadors dialogued with the the natives before things got out of hand.

  • Weesue
  • kweschns

    speaking as an atheist, I’ll say that christian fundamentalism maybe was not as brutal as the Muslim one is but modern christian fundamentalists have very little to brag about in terms of progressivism. just because they dress in slacks their disapproval of music or bare arms is no more palatable.

  • Paperboy_73

    It’s a gigantic myth, but you have to look for it. “Sensible people say sensible things” isn’t really an interesting headline, so it tends to go past without notice.

  • Paul Lee

    So glad someone else caught that. Muslim sophistry on the issue of “pollution and corruption” as well as “defense of Islam” (another justification for violence) necessarily grants Muslims rationale for jihad against the West for generations to come. Our support for Israel and having forces in Saudi Arabia and other Islamic nations is treated as an offence against the faith and grounds for aggression.

  • Where?

  • See Noevo

    “ISIS reveal 6 reasons why they despise Westerners…

    “1. Because you are disbelievers…”

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/why-isis-hate-you-reasons-8533563

  • Andrea

    As a conservative Christian, I don’t believe we are ever to hate or belittle people who do not choose to follow Christ. But the Isa of the Quran and Jesus of the Bible are NOT ONE AND THE SAME. Many Muslim countries don’t allow churches and certainly don’t allow evangelism. The Quran is clear on what to do with Muslims who convert to Christianity.
    You should not minimize the truths and concerns Christians have about Islam. More Christians die every year at the hands of Muslims extremists then any other religion and yes many Muslims of differing sects kill one another. Why would you want to defend a religion that if you really follow it, calls for the murder of homosexuals and the subservience of women? Within Christianity there are sects that are radical but if we just look at what Jesus taught, there is no room for hating anyone or killing anyone and many of us reach out to the LGBTQ community as well as respecting unbelievers.
    What I found most disturbing is the idea of Isa and Jesus being the same… just an awful interpretation of both the Quran and the scriptures.
    May the Lord open your eyes and your heart to the truth of Christ.

  • paganheart

    I suspect it’s some combination of all the above, sadly.

  • Jasmine of Damascus

    Being a middle eastern, lived 7 years in Saudi Arabia, read and understand the language of the the Quran and the Hadeeth, I have to respectfully disagree with you especially on point 3. most of the verses that you mentioned are Makkian verses (earlier ones), whereas the Madani verses abrogated them. I’m not sure if you even took some time to study the concept of the abrogated verses in the Quran.
    Your analysis shows one thing, a very superficial study of both the Quran and the O. T.
    I will quote 2 verses from the Quran that prove your article wrong.
    “Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.” Maida 33
    Plz note how the people should be treated if the do not follow Allah and his messenger. Not Islam, not the Quran. Is there any prophets who gave such order in the name of his god? Has any prophet from the O. T. Said if you don’t believe in me i will kill you???? I doubt it.
    “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” Tawbeh 29
    The fight here is not for fun, but for the purpose of killing. The original language (Arabic) is very clear.
    I hope this help you stop fighting orthodox Christianity and start using your talents and skills to target the real enemy, Satan.

  • Anyone that is grossly misinformed about Islam or any god belief or religion is not going to get better informed by reading anything from this author. He is obviously a god believer with bullshit degrees in “theology”. Theology, the study of superstitions and their justifications. SMH

  • Matthew

    Thanks

  • Matthew

    Thanks so much

  • tfjtoday

    Dr. Corey, you’re too ignorant about Quran and the life of the prophet Muhammad.

    The fundamental misunderstanding about Quran is this.
    “Yes, it records some ancient warfare where mushrikin were to be killed, but this would be the equivalent to the Old Testament recording an injunction that Israel was to take the land and slaughter even the women and children who got in their way.”

    No way! I assume you’ve never ever read even a bit about the life of the prophet Muhammad recorded by Ibn Ishaq.

    The prophet started out his preaching with a peaceful message of coexistence with Jews and Christians as he referred them as “people of the book.” (This happened in the Meccaen period.) However, after he fled to Medina, he allowed disciples to engage in physical attacks against his enemies. Once he had sanctioned violence, his tendency to resort to violence grew ever stronger. He beheaded hundreds of Qurayza captives. He told his men to torture one rich man to find out treasures. He took a female captive as his sex slave. He also told non-Muslims under his control to give up half of harvests to pay Jyza tax to feed Muslims. And he died without repenting on any of these actions.

    The truth was, the Quranic god told his prophet to begin peacefully, then told him to wage physical war against non-Muslims until they all submit and pay Jyza tax.

  • Scott Harrison

    Thanks for the article, and for sharing all the comments. My confusion is far greater now!

    Whether Muslims are the friends or foes of Christianity, Christ’s injunction is to love: as soon as we are possessed by fear and hatred we are lost. This does not imply a passive response towards those who would harm us, but a rigourous evaluation of our attitudes. (Think: Bonhoeffer).

    One thought I’d like to add is from the Russian religious philosopher Nicolas Berdyaev, addressing the many heinous crimes within Christendom (the Inquisition, the Crusades …). He observes that these are the works of men possessed by evil and not the manifestation of the Spirit of Christ. This of course is no excuse for wrong done in the name of Jesus Christ!

    Is there a possibility that the mystical traditions within Christianity and Islam have a common ground of lovingkindness, where the fundamentalist traditions have a common ground of “othering”, violence and hatred? Just an observation.

  • Artistree

    Jesus, the Messiah, the anointed King, the Son of David, who will rule the New Creation Kingdom, now and forever ?
    Sorry, Tim, that’s not Islam’s definition of Messiah.
    Ask your loyal friend Muslim Imam what his definition of Messiah is…I doubt it is the same definition that the Jewish Scriptures give us.

  • “As a conservative Christian, I don’t believe we are ever to hate or belittle people who do not choose to follow Christ.”

    If this is truthful I hope you stand up to the 99% of Conservative Christians who do most certainly openly hate and belittle those who not only choose not to follow Christ, but also those who do follow Christ but not enthusiastically enough.

  • John Purssey

    Why waste everyone’s time with trolling?

  • Bodivine

    Thanks for sharing this piece of history that cannot be ignored.

  • Bodivine

    So true..imaginary beings do run the gamut of this Earth.

  • Bodivine

    Nice arguments until your punchline killed it all, “Satan”! OMG

  • raven nevermore

    Really! Come on. That sound like an exaggeration.

  • IntoTheNoise

    Yes.

  • IntoTheNoise

    One of the best and most accessible resources from an evangelical perspective: https://www.amazon.com/Cross-Crescent-Responding-Challenge-Islam/dp/0830834850
    Colin Chapman, Cross and Crescent: Responding to the Challenge of Islam

    Also, a great introductory text: https://www.amazon.com/New-Introduction-Islam-Daniel-Brown/dp/1118953460/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1496904939&sr=8-2&keywords=new+introduction+to+Islam
    Daniel Brown, A New Introduction to Islam, 3rd. Ed.

  • IntoTheNoise
  • raven nevermore

    People who write god-awful articles speaking for Islam and Muslims in general, usually are not Muslim for some reason, are wanting it on public record that they spoke out in defense, in the hope their head will not be lopped off; always these are the willfully stupid academics and politicians. Such people are intellectual bigots. Their thinking demonstrates a puerile need to be narrow or limited in perspectives.

    What about the women with an Islamic history who speak against Islam? Such as, Irshad Manji, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Brigitte Gabriel; and, the Muslim Zuhdi Jasser or the now Christian Mosab Hassen Yousef. I’d now add the post here, by your reader Ramis Wells who has brilliantly refuted the stupidity falling out of Ben’s mouth. To add to Wells is repetitive. Read also Winston Churchill’s “The River War” which is a prophetic warning about Islam.

    Islam has re-imagined God after their own image of a human nature that has not experienced what the Christian God desire: a new nature. Sure Muslims may have some good ideas, but they never go far enough because they do not acknowledge forgiveness of sins as over and done with. But, Ben thinks that speaking from experience has more convincing weight. He’s right. It is unfortunate he has not learned too much from it. After all, its all academic, mental gymnastics, to intellectual bigots. Meanwhile the death toll piles high.

    Corey: you have said some really narrow minded things before, but this tops it.

  • raven nevermore

    Thanks for this very informative video.

  • raven nevermore

    Good one.

  • kweschns

    I concede this being a Christian forum, even if progressive, there is going to be some chest thumping but how can you ignore the fact that Jesus quite clearly states that he cares nothing about the goys. and talk about perversity of denigrating a wretched woman to prove his point. the whole thing is BDSM of biblical proportions.

    yes, he didn’t call for slaughter but how can his narrow parochial focus be explained away? And don’t forget even though he never called for slaughter, rivers of blood flowed in Europe for a long time. how is that for a religion of love?

    So when talking about Islam, i would be more comfortable saying that it needs the same type external societal pressure Christianity experienced to be reined in.

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  • jekylldoc

    Iain – Yes, Wahhabism is responsible for much of the trouble, and its unholy alliance with the Saudi royal family has made a dangerous ideology much more powerful. The Wahhabist madrassas being set up around the world are intentional sources of extremism.

    That said, the reaction against modernity and globalization has not been limited to Wahhabism. Pakistan and Afghanistan have both seen huge growth in the power of reactionary Islam. Iran offers much freedom and tolerance within its theocratic structure, but it also sponsors terrorism and other destabilization.

    I think Dean’s implication is correct, that there are aspects of Islam which make moderation more difficult, from its explicit commands about social behavior to its aggressive endorsement of violence. Islam is even more absolutist about its own rightness than Christianity is. But persuasion is the only viable approach to such issues: Islam is going to have to make up its own mind.

    The question is how do you win with soft power? Are we willing to spend billions for military dominance but only a pittance for education and other development? Then we deserve to stand in long lines at the airport. Where are the institutions for gradual reform, and for tolerant dialogue? They exist, but does anybody cover those “developments” for the news? And does anybody watch and read about them? Then we deserve to have metal detectors at concerts and our laptops restricted from flights.

  • jekylldoc

    Well, you are right, of course, but it is not clear to me that “speaking out against” people’s traditional patriarchal power structures is likely to get them changed, and blaming the religion strikes me as encouraging the extremists who want to argue that their religion prohibits change.

  • winabi

    In the section ‘Muslims Love Jesus’ and the para on what they believe about Jesus, it is not what is written there that is the problem. It is what is not written. Muslims do not believe that Jesus is the son of God, that He died on the cross and that He rose from the dead. They do not believe He died for the sins of others. They do not believe that He is the prophet ‘like unto Moses’ whom God promised to send. In relation to the resurrection and judgment they do not believe that He will find without guilt those who have put their trust in His atoning death.

    To give part of the truth, as in this instance, is a deadly lie. A bit like saying what good a remedy may offer without explaining the fatal side-effects it has.

  • Matthew

    I too have heard that even moderate Muslims support killing for some (if not all) of the things you mention in #4, but I certainly don´t know if this is true.

    Google it … right?

    (Edited)

  • winabi

    +breed7 Which ‘religion’ was responsible for the majority of killing in the 20th Century? That of Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler and Mao. What is the common thread? A deep and active commitment to naturalistic evolutionary theory. That theory is fairly harmless as long as it remains a theoretical philosophy, detached from the real world. The problem arises when people take it seriously.

  • winabi

    +Paul Brateman I don’t know what Franklin was asking us to do. I do know what I would like to see happen. Freedom of speech not being shut down in the name of ‘Islamophobia’.

  • Bones

    Latest Pew Research has different findings re terrorism….

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/05/26/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

    And many Christians supported the Iraq War.

  • Bones

    Muslim anti-terror ad going viral in Arab world….

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U49nOBFv508

  • Bones

    So the white people should all go back to where they come from….

    Wtf multiculturalism is the foundation of western countries eg the Irish, Italians, Chinese….

  • Bones

    You mean the Messiah who will rule with a rod of iron and kill non-believers ala Revelation?

    Sounds Islamic to me….

  • Tom

    If Mohamed was a saintly man and Islam is so good a religion, why don’t you go ahead and convert?

  • Bones

    Which is why Christians have been fighting for over a thousand years………

  • Bones

    Nope…its completely ignorant. and takes multiple verses out of context.

  • Bones

    Unfortunately it and Christianity are full of knobheads like you.

  • Bones

    Cue the Islamic “scholars” who get their information from Muslim hating websites.

    It didn’t take them long.

  • Bones

    The saudi version of Islam is like the Westboro Baptist version of christianity.

    Only thing is they have oil money to spend exporting their extremist poisonous brand of Islam to moderate countries throughout the world.

    But hey, the Donald is giving them $100 billion in weapons.

  • Bones

    And why they despise other Muslims….

  • Matthew

    “But hey, the Donald is giving them $100 billion in weapons.”

    Absolute madness … really.

  • Bones

    Read something by Muslims – not by apologist Christians who will misrepresent Islam.

    Be aware that Sunnis, Sufis and Shiites have very different beliefs….

  • Weesue

    We are talking about ‘Cultures’ not Race… They do it in the animal kingdom too… All the cat family don’t live together because they have different ways of working, all the different breeds of monkeys don’t live together because they have different ways of living, so why should humans be any different, we are all colours and creed and have different ways of living and sometimes cultures clash, well I think more Religions, especially Fundamentalist Religions… I never mentioned race… Why can’t people see it for what it is… Religion not race! Sheeesh!

  • Bones

    You mean like in the Middle East where ISIS are slaughtering Muslims….Well yes….

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U49nOBFv508

  • Bones

    We are talking about cultures….

    We had the same dogwhistling here about Asians before extremist Islam existed (you know the 90s)

  • Weesue

    We don’t need not to be friends, I mean one individual was not friends with the whole class, but we don’t need to kill them for it! Same in society, we can be friends with other cultures, we don’t need to live together and good if we do, but we don’t see the Italians, or Chinese kill people for not agreeing with their lifestyle… They also don’t put demands on the host Country where they live… Only Fundamentalist Muslims do this…

  • Bones

    It’s doubtful that the Apostles believed Jesus was Divine…..

    It’s a bit like how we have nutbag Christians like yourself and liberal intelligent Christians like the author.

  • Realist1234

    What ‘mythical’ traditions are there in Christianity?

  • Bones

    How many Muslims in the US are you afraid of?

    And it seems the US has people like Franklin Graham promoting their own brand of sharia.

    Every religion has nutcases.

  • Realist1234

    You clearly dont know many conservative Christians on a personal level.

  • Bones

    Here’s an example from 2000.

    Multiculturalism failed because of Asians and black people…..

    And its by a Brit as well

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/4251537/Why-multiculturalism-has-failed.html

  • Realist1234

    Actually, Old and New Testaments are God’s progressive revelation of Himself, initially to His chosen people, through whom His Messiah would be born, and then to all humanity.

    Could you quote the NT verse about killing non-believers – it doesnt come to mind.

  • Bones

    They were all tyrannical ideologues…none of which had anything to do with evolution and Hitler wasn’t an atheist…

    Btw the slaughter in the thousand years before was by Christianity including the extermination of various cultures.

  • Weesue

    I am not in the US, I am afraid of any Religion that threatens and harms people… I have many Muslim friends who I am not afraid of, I specifically said Fundamentalist Religions, of which I was brainwashed and mentally abused by a Christian Fundamentalist group for 30 years of my life, till I finally got out… So all can be harmful to anybody!

  • Realist1234

    I think it could be clearly shown the Jesus as revealed in the New Testament is not the same one Islam teaches. It is, Im afraid, a false gospel, and one the Apostles would have rejected.

    And it should be acknowledged that either the ‘revelations’ that Muhammad received were from his own head, or they were from ‘another place’. But not from God.

    But that does not mean many individual Muslims are not decent and caring people. I think most are, and most strongly disagree with the likes of IS.

    I have heard numerous reports of Muslims around the world coming to know the real Jesus, sometimes through direct dreams.

    It seems Aslan is on the move.

  • Unsubscribe Paul S. Braterman,
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  • Realist1234

    I am not sure I would take much notice of Sam Harris given what he has said about Christianity.

  • Bones

    Yes, fundamentalism is very dangerous. It would be good if we could just lump all the fundamentalists in their own countries where they can be happy in their theocracies.

    Your video lumps your friends in with extremist Muslims….

  • Tom

    Discus
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    Please unsubscribe me.
    thank you.
    Tom

  • Realist1234

    are you surprised?

  • Realist1234

    Baha’u’llah claimed to be the second coming of Christ, the promised Holy Spirit, the Day of God…

    If you believe that you’ll believe anything.

  • Realist1234

    Following the attacks in the UK, a number of Muslims, both leaders and ‘ordinary’ people have condemned such violence. Reported widely in the news media.

  • Realist1234

    See the UK news media following the recent attacks.

  • Artistree

    Yeah Bones, Jesus’ prime minister, Pope Francis is out there killing lots of non-believers. You’re a bit mixed up.

  • Guthrum

    I remember a pastor saying that at one time Muslims were followers of Jesus and then broke away, somewhat. Why don’t we hear more about that ?

  • Jasmine of Damascus

    Yes, i meant to fight and write against Satan, not other believers. What’s wrong with that? I didn’t call anyone Satan.

  • Doug Tozier

    That same, loving Jesus is depicted as coming in wrath to spill the blood of the opposition (nonChristians) and cast all heathen into the Lake Of Fire. I guess I’d thought that love didn’t eternally judge and condemn those who don’t accept it.

  • Doug Tozier

    Not to mention for the “sin” of being born human… how is it, again, that I am guilty of Adam and Eve’s failure to “resist” temptation for which they were ill-equipped? How is that my fault? I think I have a better grasp of love than Jesus and Mohamed.

  • Doug Tozier

    Why is it trolling to point out the errors in a publication? Disagreement is not a sin.

  • Wesley

    islam started from a heretical Christian sect called the Ebionites, they believed that God the Father adopted Jesus Christ at his baptism. i guess Mohammad’s first wife was a Ebionite priestess, and he was taught Christianity through the lens of this heresy.

  • Bodivine

    Nothing wrong with it, but I guess it shocked me since I don’t believe in religions or Satan for that matter. All what you wrote is great. Thanks.

  • Jasmine of Damascus

    what’s wrong with asking the writer to use his talents to fight Satan, not other believers??

  • Scott Harrison

    Sure, it’s a fair point. I guess that’s why I’m drawn to Berdyaev’s mystical interpretation of religious belief (influenced in part by Jakob Böhme, Meister Eckhart and others); he sees Christianity (and atheism, Judaism, Hinduism etc) playing out in the world through fallible men and women. Of course the story of Jesus is also deeply embedded in myth and distorted in many ways. The outworking of all religions and ideologies seems to me a shabby mess, which is precisely what Berdyaev points out. There is a sense in which Christianity is a failure in the world, no more or less than Islam or marxism or militant atheism for that matter. All religion and ideology is mediated and expressed by fallible men, but this does not invalidate its inner truth, for instance the value of man, kindness towards the poor, forgiveness…

  • Clara

    I wrote a facts-based comment complete with quotes and explanations and I wrote it especially for this article. The comment has been removed, and labeled as “Spam”. Please, moderators, check your spam-detector, something is deeply wrong with it. Or maybe you just remove fact-based comments, because you do not like facts, since they are proof of the truth? And instead leave misleading and therefore very dangerous articles alone, which are so untrue, it hurts. Why is it? What is your agenda here? Truth is always better than lies. Always and for everyone, even the liar in the long run. People, be careful with certain “Theologists”, who do not like the truth. They are false Theologists oder “-ists” of a false Theology. They are dangerous for you.

  • Wesley

    too many Christians want to judge Islam by it most radical sect, Wahhabi. this is like judging Christianity using the Westboro Baptist congregation.

  • Scott Harrison

    Hi Realist, no I typed “mystical” – it just strikes me that when mystics write of “the ineffable” and “apophatic knowledge” there are meeting points between otherwise warring positions. Its like Karl Rahner, a Catholic, is speaking the same language as, say, Rumi or the Dalai Lama. However, with regards myth, there is a mythical truth in the story of the Resurrection surely. Atheists spend a lot of time debunking it, while fundamentalist Christians defend it passionately. But it is possible to find mythic truth in Resurrection, for instance in a restored relationship, or in the cycles of new life in nature (okay, a kind of Jungian reading I admit). I would suggest that where two religions like Christianity and Islam have long been enemies, dialogue and respect may represent a kind of resurrection too.

  • Clara

    For me I only judge Islam by the Quran. I do not care about certain branches. The Quran alone is enough to judge. And while we are there: equivalently people should judge Christianity only by the written word of YHWH (OT, NT). And then one could compare. No excuses anymore. By the way: when was the last time a Westboro Baptist (do not know anything about it) man or woman took a truck only to kill innocent infidels on the streets with it, shouting “Jesus is great!” When did a Westboro Baptist go and kill 8 year old girls after a pop-concert and when did the Westboro Baptist Church label that man a hero or a fighter for their cause and for the Lord? Stop relativating. It makes you look crazy.

  • Clara

    Josh, I found my comment under my profile and I pressed “not spam” and the system said, it will evaluate. Thank you for caring. Maybe you would not even like, what I wrote, but I consider it very nobel of you, that you express interest. Thank you, Josh. I would like to read the comment of the guy who’s comment is still waiting. I hope, it will be published. I appreciate your input.

  • Clara

    Ah, what I wanted to say is, that maybe everyone could read my comment from my profile? I am not sure.

  • DrewTwoFish

    Regarding our recent banishment: I’m always amazed at Christians who can’t handle the mildest of push back from those who they have collectively battered for centuries. And wouldn’t you expect them to exercise a bit more grace in confronting that push back? Hold themselves to a higher standard of discourse?

  • Clara

    I have seen it. My system says that his comment was deleted. But the responders are there. I tried to change my profile settings to “for all” but could not find that option. So we have to wait.

  • Clara

    I am referring to this thread, where you answered Bones: “Josh Bones • 4 hours ago
    You’re right; it just had everything to do…” Is it this?

    Initial comment and thread-starter says here: “This comment was deleted.”

  • raven nevermore

    Jasser IS calling for a reformation of Islam as Christianity had experienced. I would further present the premise that if there is no reformation, then the religion of Islam is not from God but an invention of an imaginative mind. I would concede that it probably is not from God, but that God could redeem it as a viable spiritual experience. But they would have to acknowledge so many errors in their religion, which even Corey appears to over-look.

  • Clara

    He is telling the truth – and providing proof for it with facts, scientifically correct. His article is saying some things not unlike my own, which has been labelled “Spam”, and been removed, but in the core I say similar things and back them up similarily. I do not know, why this complete truth is “forbidden knowledge” here on patheos. Just because you asked before.

  • Realist1234

    Sorry I misread your word.

    But I disagree there is anything mythical about Jesus’ resurrection. The Gospel writers and the rest of the New Testament present it as a historical fact, which I am convinced it is. As Paul said, if the resurrection did not happen (a real, physical event in history), then Christians are without hope. But we’re not!

  • Realist1234

    Indeed but it was power-hungry, God-less individuals that led to such atrocities.

  • George Loudon Sr

    Do Muslim’s believe Jesus is God? Also, John 14:6King James Version (KJV)

    6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

  • Realist1234

    ‘Westboro Baptist (do not know anything about it)’

    Youre probably better not knowing.

  • mai

    LETS AGREE ON ONE THING FIRST: TERRORISM HAS NO RELIGION.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/25/china-bans-islamic-baby-names-muslim-majority-xinjiang-province/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

     https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10155524089753690&id=7382473689
    ( https://youtu.be/WixrEMS9pnc)
     https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2017-02-06/un-report-finds-violence-against-myanmars-rohingyas-reaches-new-high

     https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=713636208816180&id=100005094221763

     ” the soldier told everyone to come out of their homes. The officer inspected everyone and then sent the women and the children who were under 13 back home. He took all the men and the boys over 13 to another part of the camp,far enough so the families could not see.then the soldiers lined everyone up against a wall and shot all of them.when they were done ,the officer went one by one and shot each person in the head…..more than 30, among them a 13 year old boy and an 86 year old man.after he shot them,the bodies were laid in a row on the ground and the bulldozer began driving over them ,going back and forth and back and forth until the bodies were unrecognizable”

    From ‘ the general’s son’ by miko peled.

     https://news.vice.com/article/christian-and-muslims-are-facing-more-and-more-persecution-by-hindu-extremists-in-india

     https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=771792359655874&id=428900703945043

     http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/01/08/un-inquiry-finds-ethnic-cleansing-muslims-in-central-african-republic-but-no.html

    In palestine:
     https://youtu.be/WZPNP7E5jeY

    In iraq:
    http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/specialseries/2017/01/iraq-deadly-deception-170108082649899.html

     http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/oliver-stone-tells-his-untold-history-middle-east-1467591396

    About ISIS:
     https://youtu.be/hJo4B-yaxfk
    English subtitle available:

     https://youtu.be/O3YwSuBfLGg

  • mai

    http://www.covenantsoftheprophet.com/

     http://aboutislam.net/reading-islam/research-studies/saladin-a-hero-admired-by-muslims-christians/2/

  • mai

       The prophet muhammad peace be upon him taught his companions to respect people of all faith backgrounds and to care for everyone. He said ” donate in charity to people of all faiths”( musanaf ibn shaybah 3/177).
        He personally used to donate money regularly to sponsor a jewish family in his community.
        When the prophet saw a funeral procession of a jew passing by ,he stood up out of respect. when some companions pointed out that the deceased was not muslim,he rebuked them stating ” is it not a human soul?”( sahih bukhari 1250) .the lesson here is to respect all humanity.
    QURAN 60:8 ” God instructs you to deal kindly and justly with anyone who has not fought you for your faith or driven you out of your homes: God loves the just”

    Prophet muhammad said” whoever harms a non muslim at peace with us will never smell the fragrance of paradise,although its fragrance can be found a distance of forty years of travel) sahih bukhari 6516.

    On the day of judgment,  the prophet muhammad pbuh himself will argue on behalf of persecuted non Muslims and against the muslims who persecuted them ” if anyone wrongs a non Muslim at peace with us ,violates his rights,burdens him with more work than he is able to do, or takes something from him without his consent ,then i will be his  advocate on the day of resurrection” sunan abi dawud 3052.

  • George Loudon Sr

    Do Muslim’s believe Jesus is God? Also, John 14:6King James Version (KJV)

    6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

  • mai

    We are the followers of jesus peace be upon him.. And we have to say : peace be upon him. He fasted, said allaha not god, prayef to his father by falling on his face matthew 26:39. We pray by prostration 5 times a day, he had a beard as muslim men, mary peace be upon her covered her body except for face and hands like muslim women should, his greeting was ” sholom aleichem” luke 24:36 , in arabic ” salamu alaikum” meaning ” peace to you”, he didnt eat pork leviticus11:7-8. In the quran chapter 19 is named mariam meaning ” mary” peace be upon her. But he is one of the 5 mighty messengers, and we dont believe he is God or his son, and there is no unambiguous statement in the bible that says:” i am god, worship me” and he never died for your sins. That is church teaching, not his teachings. The quran says he is the messiah, allah saved him from crucifixion and he will come back to kill the antichrist and tell you that he is a prophet , a man.

  • Benjamin, I am glad that you know Muslims who are “kindest, most hospitable people I know.”

    But you need to also look at the facts about millions of Muslims worldwide, millions of them support punishing ex-Muslims, even executing them. Millions of Muslims support punishing others who criticize Muhammad. Millions of Muslims are against equality for women.

    And take a look at Sharia Law around the globe:-(
    See statistics from Pew about the many millions of Muslims who strongly support Sharia Law.

    I have also had experiences with Muslims including when living in the Middle East. Muslim soldiers went into an apartment complex about a mile from where I lived and shot up innocent civilians for Allah:-(

    Here on the west coast, I’ve talked with Muslim leaders. They don’t believe in the Bill of Rights!! Are against religious freedom!:-(
    They believe in the Quranic verse about a husband being told to whip his wife:-(

    They support groups such as HAMAS:-(

    One friendly Muslim American with a PhD seemed to be the exception to the vast majority of Muslims; he even claimed to believe in toleration of non-Muslims, BUT
    when I said I had written for a young mother in Pakistan who has been sentenced to be executed for criticizing Muhammad,
    this PhD Muslim America got irate, and said, NO one has the right to criticize Muhammad.

    Besides that, all orthodox Muslims believe in determinism–that all evil, all disease, all war, all natural disasters are Allah’s will!

    Study the Quran. It even says that Allah “leads” humans “astray.”

    Yes, Muslims can be very kind and hospitable. I once was invited to stay with a Muslim family in Nablus, Palestine, when I missed my bus.

    But the Muslims there, as nice as they were, wanted to kill Jewish people, etc.

    Recently when a young man murdered a non-Muslim 13 year old girl, the government authorities hailed him as a “hero” and a “martyr.”

    Really morally sick.

  • mai

    She was not a preistess. But her cousin knew about the old testament and believed in one god. There was no bible written in arabic at the time of muhammad peace be upon him.

  • Guthrum

    This is a very informative and helpful article. I am going to forward it to people I know and several pastors and church members.

  • When I was a Christian and lived in the Middle East, I knew of no Wahhabi Muslims. The killers there, and the other Muslims who supported them weren’t “radical.” They were normal everyday orthodox Muslims:-(

    And here in the U.S. I don’t know any Wahhabi Muslims. Again, the Muslims who deny religious freedom, who think the Quran is the eternal literal word of Allah are regular orthodox Muslims.

    Study the Quran, read it all the way through. Dialog with Muslim scholars.
    Read biographies of Muhammad.

    Most of it is very wrong, and very harmful.

    The shining exception are extremely liberal Muslims. I’ve known a couple of them. They oppose war, oppose inequality, don’t wear a hijab, do support religious freedom, do oppose Sharia Law.

  • Scott Harrison

    Perhaps the Resurrection is Real on multiple levels. Words fail to explain the depth of the Truth, the Mystery. Not that we don’t try to wrestle with words of course, and I thank you for challenging me on this. Christ is Risen is for me a declaration of faith which I can make because of an ineffable inward conviction. Problems do arise with a forensic historical interpretation, but I believe the Resurrection is far greater and beyond what we can contain in words or doctrinal statements, beyond what we can comprehend, beyond the mere historical fact of the empty tomb though it necessarily includes the empty tomb, and beyond myth though it contains myth (in Bultmann’s sense that is). Christ is risen is the transformation of existence, and all men need to know this! I am at once dissatisfied with the narrowly defined, fundamentalist apprehension of the Resurrection and equally bemused by the thinking in higher criticism (see: http://postbarthian.com/2015/03/15/karl-barth-demythologizing-empty-tomb-ascension/). Both positions seem to me to be rationalizations of that which is an ultimate mystery.

  • Dean

    These comments, while interesting to read, are also pretty depressing at the same time. But I do think they point to the divide that the West is currently confronted with on this issue and while I typically agree with Dr. Corey on a lot of things I frankly think his post is a little naive and completely unhelpful to the discussion. Our country is currently divided into two groups as I see it and neither seem interested or equipped to deal with Islamic extremism. First you have a lot of conservatives, many of them purportedly Christian, who believe that Islam is fundamentally satanic, which permits them to condemn Islam and Muslims in a blanket fashion. I think it’s obvious to most people how misguided this is from both a principled and pragmatic perspective (uh, how do you deal with the fact that there are 1 billion people who claim to be Muslim?). I am sympathetic to those who oppose this position as Dr. Corey is trying to do, I think this kind of animus is both unhelpful in terms of policy and is also un-Christian. I’ve not actually not heard or read anything to challenge that notion, there’s just no where for this kind of approach to go right? I’m not sure what people who hold this perspective think we should do. This idea that we can use military force to confront an ideology has no theoretical support and an even better argument against it is that it has not borne out in practice, like, literally 50 years worth and trillions of dollars of practice.

    But here’s the trap that liberals and progressives fall into, they think Islam is just like any other religion out there and so long as we fix whatever underlying social problems these societies have, well the, the problem is solved. This is an equally baffling position in my opinion and it’s where Sam Harris actually makes a lot of sense if you actually listen to what he is saying. There is clearly something about Islam in this particular moment in history that has made it susceptible to the corruption that we see taking place in extremist groups. Is that a shocking statement? It sounds to me like an empirical one. To cite Sam Harris again, you don’t see Jainist suicide bombers. You (almost never) see Buddhist terrorists. By this I specifically mean folks using a particular religious ideology to justify violence. It seems to me that it’s an empirical question whether or not a particular set of religious beliefs is more or less susceptible that kind of political expression. What about Christianity? Well we know from history that it has also been used this way, but to state the obvious, that’s not an excuse for what’s happening to Islam today.

    I think the only rational policy going forward is one that forces Islam into the modern world and to figure out how to convince certain populations to embrace Western liberalism. For some reason, liberals today bristle at that idea, the idea that yes, our way is better than their way. Equality of the sexes, protection of religious, ethnic and sexual minorities, freedom of thought and expression, protection from arbitrary state action, these are universal goods that we need to proclaim and if necessary, impose on some of these societies that reject them. Am I suggesting by military means? Probably not, given our track record. But what I am saying is that asserting that our way is a better way and not being ashamed of that is a good start. To be sympathetic to Trump supporters, I think that’s what a lot of them, as misguided as they are, believe we need to do more of and they think liberals and progressives are hypocrites when they refuse to say certain things, I think that position is valid.

    America has done a lot of terrible things and I’m the first to say that we are probably the primary catalyst for Islamic extremism today. But that is not to say that we have nothing to bring to the table, the society that we have built is one that is still founded upon the protection of human rights and dignity and this country literally undergirds all other modern liberal democracies today. That is not nothing, and we need to figure out a way to export that to the Muslim world because we’re not doing a great job of that right now. Otherwise, everyone might as well just throw in the towel right?

  • C_Alan_Nault

    Here is some information everyone– not just Conservatives– should know about Islam.

    Here is what Islam says about sharia law as it applies to non-Muslims.

    The choices for unbelievers are:
    1. Convert to Islam.
    2. Pay the jizya, the poll-tax on non-Muslims, and an entire system of humiliating regulations that institutionalize inferior status for non-Muslims in Islamic law.
    3. War with Muslims.

    Here is what the jizya entails (all this is still part of the Sharia today):

    The subject peoples,” ( known as dhimmis) according to a contemporary manual of Islamic law, must:
    -“pay the non-Muslim poll tax (jizya)”
    -“are distinguished from Muslims in dress, wearing a wide cloth belt (zunnar)
    – are not greeted with ‘as-Salamu ‘alaykum’ [the traditional Muslim greeting “Peace be with you”]
    – must keep to the side of the street
    – may not build higher than or as high as the Muslims’ buildings, though if they acquire a tall house, it is not razed
    – are forbidden to openly display wine or pork…recite the Torah or Evangel aloud, or make public display of their funerals or feast days
    – are forbidden to build new churches

    If they violate these terms, the law further stipulates that they can be killed or sold into slavery at the discretion of the Muslim leader. Dhimmis were also strictly forbidden, on pain of death, to proselytize among Muslims—a prohibition accompanied by a similar death sentence for Muslims who left Islam.

    Both of these, along with the other provisions of dhimmitude, remain part of Islamic law today.”

  • JaniceOly

    Mainstream Islamic scholars and leaders have denounced ISIS and other radical elements of Islam again and again. I may come back and post links if I have time.

  • Matthew

    Why did the Saudi Arabian national football/soccer team not participate in the moment of silence for the London terror attack victims? The official statement is that such is not consistent with their culture.

  • Roof_Rat

    I am truly inspired by your article and feel you are ready to open up a ministry in Mecca, Saudi Arabia where many ;diverse faiths’ can attend a multitude of religious services. In a coexist safe zone, of course

  • Roof_Rat

    Are you willing to practice what you preach in Mecca, Saudi Arabia? Hold a Sunday service open to all faiths? The blood of Christ will be with you .

  • otrotierra

    Where did Dr. Corey claim he was going to Saudi Arabia? Nice attempt at obfuscation, but it’s not working.

    As soon as you have a legitimate counter-argument in response to Dr. Corey’s thoughtful article, be sure to share it with us.

  • otrotierra

    And yet if you had a legitimate counter-argument in response, you would have already shared it.

    You’ll need to work much, much harder to defend Evangelical’s fear-mongering ignorance and Islamophobia.

  • Nick

    Not what the author is arguing. If you read Dr. Corey you would know that he professes Jesus as the means of salvation.

  • Martha Anne Underwood

    I feel for Muslims in this country. I have read quite a bit about Islam, but have no read the Quran. What Benjamin said in his article is what I believe about Muslims. What galls me is when conservative Christians want to go out and kill anyone who is LGBTQI and think that is okay. Sounds pretty violent to me.

  • Ghassan Awada

    I think that you are mixing between the seventh century and the twenty first century.you need to upgrade your informations about the muslims. I usually don’t bother with ignorant like you,but for the sake of argument ,I want to shed some light on your bright European and American history.your records speaks for itself about the genocides that you committed against humanity in general.you are like a whore who preach about fidelity and virtue.so please try another subject to comment on it (stick with your usual celebrity news) because that is the level of your knowledge .

  • Ghassan Awada

    so you keep insisting that saudi arabia with a population of 23 millions are an example of the rest of 1.5 billion muslims.have you ever been to lebanon.do some research and stop being an ignorant.trolls like you are very boring and dull .your source of informations is a guideline distributed by the Zionist Mossad.

  • Dean

    I think the point that Paul is trying to make and that others have for those who want to “speak out” against Islam is what exactly are you trying to achieve? The reality is that 1 billion Muslims exist in this world and a lot of them live here. So if the objective is to somehow get rid of them, then I guess Graham’s rhetoric makes sense, but I haven’t actually seen the policy moves behind the words. If that’s not the objective, then what is the objective? If the objective is merely to inflame people against Islam and Muslims, then certainly we can agree that is an inappropriate objective. Are people just incapable of being rational these days? Do people say things just to make noise or is there a purpose for what you say and how you say it beyond just getting attention? This is what Trump has wrought on this country. We have to actually ask these kinds of questions of ourselves.

  • Stephen

    According to Jesus fighting for Him is a contradiction of what it means to be a Christian. Fighting for Allah is not in contradiction of Quran.

  • ZackBop

    What conservative Christians want to do that? You know they actually do that in most Muslim countries though, right?

  • otrotierra

    Thank you again, Dr. Corey, for your thoughtful commentary. Your comment section is an interesting counterpart, in that it reveals little about Muslims and much about U.S. Western religious fundamentalist Islamophobia.

  • Katherine Harms

    I simply recommend you read the Koran. You are entitled to have an opinion based on people you have met, but that is nit the same tHong as finding out the teaching from the authoritative book. Like Christians, Muslims have “in name only” self-identified adherents. Read the Koran if you want to know the teachings of Islam.

  • Doug Tozier

    Which is why I advocate inner truth sans religion. The rites get in the way of the practice. I left religion for that reason.

  • John Purssey

    The comment does not contribute to the discussion and the author is just self-indulging in a pet hate.
    No errors were pointed out in the person’s own value judgment which is simply dismissive without any content.

  • John Purssey

    The Russian Orthodox church is also in cahoots with the Russian government in this sort of violence.

  • Roger Morris

    Well actually I was referring to what Harris had to say about the connection between Islam and jihadist violence. But thank you for very clearly demonstrating the folly of committing the Genetic Fallacy.

    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/genetic

  • Scott Harrison

    Religion, forgive the pun, is a “broad church”. I too “left”, but acknowledge that ritual as symbol assists some people in articulating or giving concrete form to the Ineffable. A Buddhist bell sounding in the mountains of Tibet or the Misere Mei sang in Saint Peters or simply standing before the windows of Sainte Chapelle can be legitimate avenues of Encounter with the Divine/”Ground of Being” for many, if not for all (also rite and ritual have horizontal/social/communal significance, something the post-Christian West has increasingly lost. Still, like all things – like a rave or a party or a night with the lads – rites can become dull and meaningless, and the rites of one group (say Christian baptism) can have immense value to initiates and none at all to others. I was attracted at one point to Quaker worship for their absence of ritual, dogma and symbols, but am currrently finding great beauty in Eastern Orthodox liturgy. Different strokes I suppose!

  • Stephen

    The fairest way to judge a religion is by what it teaches in its scriptures.
    It was Muhammad in Surah (chapter) 9 of the Quran who said that Allah requires Muslims to fight the unbelievers.
    On the other hand Jesus commmands his followers to love their enemies (Matthew 5)
    ““You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’ and hate your enemy. But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you!”
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:43-44‬ ‭NLT‬‬
    http://bible.com/116/mat.5.43-44.nlt

  • That is not a valid (nor accurate) response to my comment.

    Putting aside how many I “know on a personal level” (in your opinion), I see online that the loudest and most virulent Islamophobes are also the ones who identify most with the furthest Right Christianity. These people are hypocrites of the worst degree.

    When I respond to their posts, their reply is always along the line of, “Well, not all Christians are like that, no true Christian believes that or acts that way”… yet those same people to whom I reply sure do like to believe that All Muslims Are Like That™. So in the end it matters not if I happen to know on a personal level your perfect number of Conservative Christians. What matters is that many Conservative Christians are all too fond of accusing Muslims in general of the crimes of the few extremists.

  • Brandon Roberts

    1. i think you should’ve specified some muslims cause there are some that do view jews and christians as infidels and some that aren’t very hospitable.
    2. i have a muslim friend and he’s a really good peaceful person.
    3. while the qu,ran does have some very peaceful verses and doesn’t condone murdering innocents some verses have a very different idea of “innocent” actually encouraging murdering unbelievers now yes not all muslims follow these verses (thankfully) but i don’t think we should pretend like they don’t exist

  • Realist1234

    You claimed ‘99% of Conservative Christians who do most certainly openly hate and belittle…’. That statistic, which you claim is ‘most certain’, appears to be based on your online blogging. Seriously? lol

  • Bones

    As opposed to the slaughter of the thousand years before hand.

  • Bones

    To be fair, if they had a minute’s silence for every terrorist attack in their own lands, they would be standing for an hour.

    And no, we had no minute’s silence for the recent terrorist attacks in Iran.

  • Bones

    Why do people consider themselves experts when all they read is Christian Apologetics and Muslim hating sites?

    Mohammad was no different to Moses.

  • Bones

    Yes…just like Trump….moron…..

  • Bones

    Were these orthodox Muslims, Palestinian by any chance?

  • Bones

    You mean to tell me the vast majority of Muslims in America don’t believe in the Bill of Rights and whip their wives?

    You need to get out more.

    And the Palestinian-Israel conflict is a whole lot more than the Quran says. That’s a pretty dumb post if you don’t understand that.

    Ffs when I was a kid they were Palestinian Nationalists of the PLO led by Arafat. Now they’re called Islamic terrorists.

  • Bones

    That’s completely false.

  • Bones

    Nice taking verses out of context.

  • Bones

    If it’s as bad as this whinge then it wasn’t worth reading.

  • Bones

    They were certainly an influence….and Muslims protected heretical Christians and Jews from their orthodox oppressors.

    Actually Christians at the time thought that Islam was a heretical form of Christianity.

  • Matthew

    Fair enough. Maybe we should have had a moment of silence in a western stadium for the attack in Iran. Maybe Facebook images should be colored with the flags of both western and Middle Eastern nations and other nations who suffer terrorist attacks. Maybe moments of silence should happen for all terrorist attacks worldwide at the beginning of all sporting events. It´s certainly worthy of more discussion I think. Thanks as always for usually offering good food for thought Bones.

    All I´m saying is that the official statement had nothing to do with the things you mention, but rather that a moment of silence isn´t consistent with Saudi culture. Also, I´m nearly certain if their would have been a call for a moment of silence for the Iranian attacks in a western stadium the western team would have participated.

    Personally, I was miffed when I read about what the Saudi national team did (or didn´t do for that matter). Finally, I probably need to Google this to be certain, but I think when the Paris attacks happened back in November of 2015 not one Muslim nation shined the colors of the French flag on a building or any other object. I was miffed about this as well, but I admit I could be wrong and of course am open to correction.

    Be assured, I do not think that all Muslims are as some in this comment section describe and I tend to agree with some of what Dr. Corey wrote. That said, incidents like these are still a bit telling.

  • tfjtoday

    All those things are clearly recorded in “Ibn Ishaq: Sirat Rasul Allah” which is freely available online. Ibn Ishaq was not a Muslim hater nor was he a Christian Apologist :-) He was a Muslim historian who is widely recognized by Muslim scholars as a reliable source.
    http://www.justislam.co.uk/

  • Stephen

    Please show the Quranic verses you claim are being taken out of context within their context, otherwise your comment is mere assertion lacking any evidence.

  • tfjtoday

    FYI “Ibn Ishaq: Sirat Rasul Allah” is freely available online. You can check it for yourself.
    http://www.justislam.co.uk/images/Ibn%20Ishaq%20-%20Sirat%20Rasul%20Allah.pdf

  • tfjtoday

    Ibn Ishaq was no Muslim hater nor was he a Christian Apologist but he was a Muslim historian who is widely recognized by Islam scholars as a reliable source.

  • Stephen

    Muhammad clearly established that people of other religions have to pay a poll tax to Muslims called the jizya, as a reminder of their inferior status. This abrogates an earlier verse stating that there is “no compulsion in religion” and it destroys any pretense that Islam is merely a religion and not a political system.

    Quran (9:29) – “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

  • Bones

    I have no idea what Saudi ‘culture’ is but it’s probably shithouse.

    At least the good guys won….

    No, we don’t have a minute’s silence when people are killed in the Middle East….even when a 12 year old Aussie immigrant was blown top pieces at a Baghdad ice cream parlour.

    They have to be white….

  • tfjtoday

    Why do people quickly conclude that any disturbing story about Muhammad is coming from Muslim haters? These things are recorded in Muslims’ books as historical facts. While such a man is hailed as hero by extremists, some other people, including Muslims and Leftist progressives, flatly deny these facts without taking a glance at these books. So weird….

  • Bones

    Ibn Ishaq

    “The most widely discussed criticism of his sīra was that of his contemporary Mālik ibn Anas.[3] Mālik rejected the stories of Muhammad and the Jews of Medina on the ground that they were taken solely based on accounts by sons of Jewish converts.[21] These same stories have also been denounced as “odd tales” (gharāʾib) later by ibn Hajar al-Asqalani.[21] Mālik and others also thought that ibn Isḥāq exhibited Qadari tendencies, had a preference for Ali (Guillaume also found evidence of this, pp. xxii &xxiv),[3] and relied too heavily on what were later called the Isrā’īlīyāt. Furthermore, early literary critics, like ibn Sallām al-Jumaḥī and ibn al-Nadīm, censured ibn Isḥāq for knowingly including forged poems in his biography,[3] and for attributing poems to persons not known to have written any poetry.[13] The 14th-century historian al-Dhahabī, using hadith terminology, noted that in addition to the forged (makdhūb) poetry, Ibn Isḥāq filled his sīra with many munqaṭiʿ (broken chain of narration) and munkar (suspect narrator) reports.[22]”

  • Bones

    Because it normally does,

    People like you who seek to justify their own hatred.

    I’ve seen it with people who do it with Catholics, Jews….

    Even those who justify the rape of Koreans by their ancestors in ww2.

    You aren’t unique.

  • Stephen

    You tell me what Jesus really meant when he said “love your enemies and pray for them”.
    Read all of Matthew chapter 5 if you think he was actually saying something different.

  • Matthew

    Oh … I almost forgot … the Aussie´s did in fact win 3-2. Will they qualify for the WC?

    Bones … I think you are right … we in the west need to be consistent and fair-minded and we sometimes are not. Fair enough.

    I personally think it´s high time for the west to pull out of the Middle East altogether … and I don´t just mean militarily, I also mean all business interests as well. Regardless of the economic consequences, I think the west should truly question its involvement with some regimes around the globe and rethink whether they should be doing anything with them or for them.

    But the game of empire continues and the idealist in me lives on …….

  • Bones

    Wow… a text which isn’t accepted by many Muslims….

  • Bones
  • tfjtoday

    In Pakistan, one Christian mother was sentenced death penalty because of alleged “blasphemy” she committed. So scary.

    I’m worried that if we welcomed bunch of Muslims as immigrants in my country, they might demand the prosecution of anyone criticizing their religion, books, or prophet.

    With your extensive knowledge about text and traditions of Islam, please give me a proof and convince me that my anxiety (not “hatred”!! don’t get me wrong) has no ground. Please

  • tfjtoday

    Another incident reported in Pakistan was that a politician who spoke against the blasphemy laws was assassinated. The murderer was arrested and executed, but hundreds of thousands of people gathered on the streets, praising the murderer as a hero and protesting his execution.

    Not a dozen of people. Not extremists who have ties with ISIS or something, but innumerable crowd of everyday Muslims! They want whoever criticizing their religion get caught and executed. How scary. I’m frightened (not having “hatred”!)

    Tell me that I don’ t have to worry about them at all if such people are here in thousands of number and this was just a misunderstanding .

  • tfjtoday

    I’ve heard Muslims refugees are badly bullying their Christian and Yazidi peers in refugee camps.

    I’m worried that if we take them in in large number, they might bully our local Christians, Buddhists or Shintoists. Please prove me wrong.

  • breed7

    When an unintelligent person has no argument to make, they often revert to ignoratio elenchi, as you did. No one was talking about the 20th Century, honey. Simpletons always change the subject, though, so congratulations for proving my point.

  • tfjtoday

    Mine is not hatred but “concern” don’t get me wrong.

    Could you please give me a proof and convince me that there’s nothing to be afraid of about welcoming a bunch of Muslim immigrants into my country?

  • Matthew

    I feel a bit better, but not completely, after reading the following article:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-40198696

  • Please re-read my statement: “Here on the *west coast,* I’ve talked with Muslim leaders. They don’t believe in the Bill of Rights!! Are against religious freedom!:-(
    They believe in the Quranic verse about a husband being told to whip his wife:-(”

    Maybe I could edit it and make it more clear:
    EDIT:
    on the West Coast in my particular area, (but this seems to be true in general for all orthodox Muslims believe the Quran is eternal and perfect (sort of like all Evangelical Christian believe that the Bible is inerrant)EDIT

    Does that mean that there are no E.C. who support gay marriage? No.
    Does that mean there are no orthodox Muslims who support the right of every Muslim to reject Islam and to criticize Muhammad? No.

    But it appears that most Muslims throughout the world from Turkey to Indonesia, from Britain to Iraq, from Yemen to Saudi Arabia, and those in many in the U.S. do.

    Check the statistics. Read their publications.

    Read the news such as the item a few days ago where I U.S. Muslim leader refused to shake hands with a journalist because she was a woman!

    Do the Muslims you are referring to, not wear the hijab, assert that the Quran is wrong about hitting wives, think the Quran has errors in it, etc.?

    If you have a number of websites or books which declare that most Muslims in the U.S. believe as you and Benjamin say,
    please share them and I will read them.

    The only Muslim leaders in the U.S. that I know who are different are small groups such as The Muslim Reform Movement and a couple of Muslims with whom I have worked including one who invited me to her wedding and I went.

    Of course, the U.S. is a wide place with millions of Muslims. Maybe there are those who are willing to criticize Muhammad, who think that every individual has the right to reject Islam.

    I just haven’t read of them.

  • More Americans have been killed by toddlers than by Muslim terroirists in the past 5 years.

    I will be urging my Government to issue a ban on the entry of American toddlers.

  • tfjtoday

    Oh, your country is a bit different than mine. Nobody has been killed by toddlers in my country. I’m completely at a loss about what you’re trying to talk about.

  • tfjtoday

    According to your Mr. bin Ladin, directly taking revenge with their hands is completely justified for Muslims, right?

    Once Muslims feel offended, they might seek “revenge.” How scary it is…

  • tfjtoday

    In Indonesia, a Christian politician spoke something allegedly offensive to Muslims, and a huge protest and riot ensued. Now he is prosecuted for committing the crime of blasphemy.

    I’m worried that if we welcomed bunch of Muslims as immigrants, the same thing can happen in my country.

  • tfjtoday

    In Pakistan, one Christian mother was sentenced death penalty because of alleged “blasphemy” she committed. So scary.

    Another incident reported in Pakistan was that a politician who spoke against the blasphemy laws was assassinated. The murderer was arrested and executed, but hundreds of thousands of people gathered on the streets, praising the murderer as a hero and protesting his execution.

    Not a dozen of people. Not extremists who have ties with ISIS or something, but innumerable crowd of everyday, ordinary Muslims! They want whoever criticizing their religion get caught and executed. How scary. I’m frightened (not having “hatred”!)

  • tfjtoday

    Few years ago, a graduate school student from Saudi vandalized statues of Buddha in Tokyo. I’m worried that if we take in Muslims in large number, this kind of incidents will increase. (I suppose it is not “hatred”)…

  • JD

    Muslims believe that all prophets are sinless, including Muhammad. That is however contrary to the Scriptures which charge all men sinful and in need of God’s salvation (Gen. 6, Psa 53:3, Rom. 3:10-23), inclusive of prophets. Compare the prophet or “man of God” described in 1 Kings 13, who prophesied against King Jeroboam of Israel, disobeyed God and was killed by a lion. Believing that Jesus, as the Islamic prophet Isa, is sinless is therefore of no significance.

    Moreover, Islam does not support the divinity of Jesus Christ and consequently rejects the notion of the Trinity outright. Based upon this conclusion, Islam defines Christians as polytheists. The Koran should therefore be read with Christians associated as polytheists in terms of peaceful coexistence.

    Additionally, Islam rejects the Christian faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and therefore reduces Him to a human only without the ability to save humankind, in fact Muslims rejects the idea that humankind needs a Saviour. The commonality of faith in Jesus Christ between Christians and Muslims is consequently insignificant. That is because the notion of the resurrection of Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of the Christian faith.

    Claiming that Islam intends to live harmoniously with Judaism and Christianity needs to be interpreted in the light of the countless incidences of historic Islamic genocide on Christian and Jewish communities since its inception. Explain the persecution of present day indigenous Christian communities in the Middle East (where Islamists are in the majority), as well as the genocide on millions of Armenian Christians and a half million Greek Orthodox Christians during the First World War, along with many other historic examples.

    Claiming peaceful coexistence of Islam with communities of different faith requires extensive exegesis of the many references in the Koran to killing, murder and Jihad on unbelievers, polytheists, etc. A simple statement to ignore these realities is not only short sighted but also poor academic commentary. A good start would be the study of referenced Koranic texts on the following website: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx.

  • JD

    It seems you are unaware and ignorant of how Islam treats the LGBTQI communities in Islamic countries. Please do your research, you will be surprised that Christian opposition to LGBTQI marriage etc. is nothing violent in comparison.

  • C_Alan_Nault

    “,I want to shed some light on your bright European and American history.your records speaks for itself about the genocides that you committed against humanity in general”

    Why are you changing the subject from Islam?

    The rest of your rant is a collection of ad hominem attacks. Your response does nothing to address the Quran’s passages about how to deal with non-believers.

  • Benjamin Corey and Ramis Wells would have done well to back up ALL their comments on Islam with references to relevant passages in the Qur’an. Corey’s post reads like a starry eyed Universal Unitarian accepting everything from all religions as the true way of life and Well’s post reads like it was written by a bitter lapsed Catholic. Just guessing he was raised a Muslim but is now not religious. Franklin Graham and the “evangelical” right wing expose their ignorance and hypocrisy with their hate filled rants against Islam while the followers of wahhabism and other fundamentalist islamic sects expose their ignorance and apostasy with their hate filled rants against Christianity and Judaism. All three religions have been perverted over the centuries by the teachings of (mostly) men and these perversions are continuing right into the 21st century. Those of us who profess one of these religions as our faith have the responsibility to do our best to live our lives according to the true teachings of our faith as best we can with the help of our God, rejecting hate of, intolerance of and violence against another’s faith.

  • And that verse is?

  • Doug Tozier

    So that’s why whole towns turn out to beat to death someone ACCUSED of blasphemy? Got it.

  • winabi

    +Kobus… I was looking for the logical consistency of how people act. Hitler acted consistent with his ‘pure race’ philosophy. Terror in the name of Islam is consistent with how Mahommad acted, in particular once he gained power in Medina.

  • Sheila Ewing Friedline
  • Bones

    ” ….pursuing a Master’s in Theology / Apologetics”

    Didn’t read beyond that.

    Apologetics is possibly the most dishonest discipline ever.

  • Bones

    The understanding of jihad for one….

    What Does “Jihad” Really Mean to Muslims?

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/10/1023_031023_jihad.html

  • Bones

    The fact that you the vast majority of Muslims aren’t killing ‘infidels’ is pretty obvious.

    “Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians — whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve” (2:62, 5:69, and many other verses).

    “…and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, ‘We are Christians,’ because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant” (5:82).

    “O you who believe! Be helpers of God — as Jesus the son of Mary said to the Disciples, ‘Who will be my helpers in (the work of) God?’ Said the disciples, ‘We are God’s helpers!’ Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved. But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed” (61:14).

    See also

    “And good and evil deeds are not alike. Repel evil with good. And he who is your enemy will become your dearest friend.” (41:33-34)

    ‘Whoever suffers an injury done to him and forgives (the person responsible), Allah will raise his status to a higher degree and remove one of his sins.'(Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

    Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do evil.'(Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

  • Bones

    The poster didn’t like these verses because it didn’t fit with their agenda.

    “Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians — whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve” (2:62, 5:69, and many other verses).

    “…and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, ‘We are Christians,’ because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant” (5:82).

    “O you who believe! Be helpers of God — as Jesus the son of Mary said to the Disciples, ‘Who will be my helpers in (the work of) God?’ Said the disciples, ‘We are God’s helpers!’ Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved. But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed” (61:14).

    See also

    “And good and evil deeds are not alike. Repel evil with good. And he who is your enemy will become your dearest friend.” (41:33-34)

    ‘Whoever suffers an injury done to him and forgives (the person responsible), Allah will raise his status to a higher degree and remove one of his sins.'(Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

    Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do evil.'(Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

  • Bones

    That’s what happens when you have a religion that hasn’t encountered the Enlightenment. What needs to happen is a Western influence on Islam the same way it has influenced its equivalently barbaric Christian predecessors. And that is happening….

    European Islamic countries are more liberal than Conservative ones though.

    The fact is even Christians in conservative Islamic countries are conservative. That’s the nature of the socieities in the Middle East and Asia.

  • Bones

    Uganda tried very hard with help from US Evangelicals….

  • Bones

    Quoting verses you know nothing about just shows how ignorant you are.

    In modern times
    The dhimma and the jizya poll tax are no longer imposed in Muslim majority countries.[15][139] In the 21st century, jizya is widely regarded as being at odds with contemporary secular conceptions of citizen’s civil rights and equality before the law

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

    I know Palestinian Christians who don’t pay a jizya and live happily with their Muslim neighbours. They are not forced to convert, neither are they at war with Muslims. Same goes with Lebanon.

    Ffs use your brain.

    Btw dhimmi means ‘protected person’….

    For starters, Muslims believe there is no compulsion in religion.

    “There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.’ (Al Baqara 256)

    You can’t FORCE someone to believe.

    Also the Quran says this about other religons….

    “Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians — whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve” (2:62, 5:69, and many other verses).

    “…and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, ‘We are Christians,’ because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant” (5:82).

    “O you who believe! Be helpers of God — as Jesus the son of Mary said to the Disciples, ‘Who will be my helpers in (the work of) God?’ Said the disciples, ‘We are God’s helpers!’ Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved. But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed” (61:14).

    See also

    “And good and evil deeds are not alike. Repel evil with good. And he who is your enemy will become your dearest friend.” (41:33-34)

    ‘Whoever suffers an injury done to him and forgives (the person responsible), Allah will raise his status to a higher degree and remove one of his sins.'(Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

    Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do evil.'(Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

  • Bones

    Get off it Chris….if I want to learn about Christianity, I’ll read a Muslim apologist…….

    You know it makes sense.

  • Bones

    Just shows you know nothing about anything.

    Hitler’s race theory was as much affected by religion as espoused by Martin Luther who wrote in his “On the Jews and their Lies” :

    What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

    First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly ­ and I myself was unaware of it ­ will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

    Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

    Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. (remainder omitted)

    Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17 [:10 ff.]) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: “what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord.” Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people’s obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16 {:18], “You are Peter,” etc, inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.

    Fifth, I advise that safe­ conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let they stay at home. (…remainder omitted).

    Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us all they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God’s blessing in a good and worthy cause.

    Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]}. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.

    * * *
    But what will happen even if we do burn down the Jews’ synagogues and forbid them publicly to praise God, to pray, to teach, to utter God’s name? They will still keep doing it in secret. If we know that they are doing this in secret, it is the same as if they were doing it publicly. for our knowledge of their secret doings and our toleration of them implies that they are not secret after all and thus our conscience is encumbered with it before God.

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/martin-luther-quot-the-jews-and-their-lies-quot

  • Bones

    Wahabbists don’t believe in statues…they destroy Muslim statues as well……You know the statues Muslims revere…..

    Ffs get some education on what ‘Muslims’ are.

  • Bones

    Funny…. a lot of Muslims want to leave countries like Pakistan….

    But you don’t want them to…….

    And no, we don’t have people over here threatening to cut people’s heads off for criticising Islam which is in the media a lot.

  • Bones

    You should carry on your argument with Bin Laden somewhere else.

    We have Muslims here who are called ‘pigs’ by people like yourself- for being Muslim.

    They don’t turn around and cut their heads off..

  • Joe Carey

    Meaning what? You have a disdain for apologetics but did not provide a reason. And your bias prevented you from reading further to see if anything I wrote had merit? Intellectual dishonesty?

  • Bones

    Obviously our Muslims over here are more educated than yours…..

    From the leading scholar on Sharia Law in Australia (- a woman)

    Does judgement cause division?

    I had a phone call from one of my sons on Wednesday night. He was upset that some of the people he considered his friends had been posting disparaging remarks about Muslims on Facebook. They were the usual stereotypes – Muslims were violent, Muslims wanted to bring in sharia, Muslims didn’t integrate, didn’t share Aussie values and so on.

    The majority of Muslims in Australia are, like my son, born here or came as young children, are educated, hold responsible jobs, look after their families and steer clear of any involvement in extremism or crime. Mostly they obey the sharia as well as Australian law. For most there is no conflict between the two systems. The ordinary citizen reading the tabloid press might think differently.

    Last week, four men, said to be followers of the strict Wahhabi sect of Islam, allegedly inflicted 40 lashings on a convert for drinking alcohol, a crime under Islamic law. Apparently the police were told the offenders were inflicting a “sharia” punishment.

    Hardly anyone checked the facts. The men’s actions were wrong, not only under Australian law but also under Islamic law. Even in the few Muslim countries that apply sharia, the offender should be considered innocent until proven guilty and entitled to a fair trial before being punished. A Muslim caught drinking in Malaysia, for instance, would expect to be brought before the sharia court and, after due process, punished. He would not expect to be set upon in his home by vigilantes.

    The second point is that Islamic law requires Muslims who live in non-Muslim countries to obey the law of the land. Muslims may strongly disapprove of acquaintances drinking alcohol but the vast majority wouldn’t take the law into their own hands.

    The same rules apply to new Muslim individuals who go around loudly demanding that sharia replace the Australian legal system. Many modern Muslim scholars believe that the objectives of sharia – fairness and social justice – are already being met in the legal systems of most Western countries. We have a globalized multicultural and multi-religious society. It is generally remarkably harmonious. We should not cause division by blaming all the members of one community for the faults of a few individuals.

    Jamila Hussain is a senior lecturer in law at the University of Technology, Sydney. She has been actively involved in the Muslim community for many years and has given papers at a number of national and international conferences on the subject of Islam and Muslims in Australian society.

  • Bones

    Lol….he’s a Statist just like Stalin…..moron….

  • Bones

    No…it is hatred.

    You hate Muslims.

  • Bones

    The only bullying here are by people like yourself who hate Muslims….

  • Bones

    Pakistan is a source of extremism and terrorism….eg the taliban so your claim these are normal Muslims is rubbish.

    And many Muslims in Pakistan protested the killing of Christians…..

    Pakistan: Pakistanis Protest Slaughter Of Christian Minorities, Islamic Clerics Also Condemn Attacks

    Muslim clerics or Ulema from different schools of thought in Pakistan on Monday condemned the killing of dozens of Christians in twin bomb blasts that ripped through a church in the northern city of Peshawar. They issued Fatwas (religious decrees), declaring such acts of violence against innocent minorities as ‘un-Islamic’.

    http://www.carbonated.tv/news/pakistan-peshawar-church-blasts-people-protest-targeting-christian-minority-fatwas-condemn-terrorist-attack

    You won’t read that on the sites you visit….

    Btw the laws in Pakistan prohibit the blasphemy of ANY religion…..

    eg

    Christians and Muslims in Pakistan condemned Dan Brown’s novel The Da Vinci Code as blasphemous. On 3 June 2006, Pakistan banned the film. Culture Minister Ghulam Jamal said: “Islam teaches us to respect all the prophets of God Almighty and degradation of any prophet is tantamount to defamation of the rest.”

  • Bones

    The laws in Pakistan prohibit the blasphemy of ANY religion…..
    eg
    Christians and Muslims in Pakistan condemned Dan Brown’s novel The Da Vinci Code as blasphemous. On 3 June 2006, Pakistan banned the film. Culture Minister Ghulam Jamal said: “Islam teaches us to respect all the prophets of God Almighty and degradation of any prophet is tantamount to defamation of the rest.”

  • Bones

    Why would we leave the Middle East when we have done such a great job destroying it????

  • Bones

    Nah its the Quran that people like you couldn’t be half arsed reading nor understanding so just copy any ol quote off of apologetic sites.

  • Bones

    Because they normally are…..

    How many Muslims have you talked to???…..(let me guess – none)

  • Bones

    You are aware that no Muslim country requires Christians to pay a jizya……

    That’s the problem with people like you….

    You have no understanding of things like historical context.

    Btw it was that Dhimmis (protected people) paid a jizya and didn’t have to pay the tax which other Muslims did.

    But while we’re on it….what was the historical rationale for the jizya and how did it apply…..

    Most Muslim jurists and scholars regard the jizya as a special payment collected from certain non-Muslims in return for the responsibility of protection fulfilled by Muslims against any type of aggression,[2][4][30][31][51][59][60][61][62] as well as for non-Muslims being exempt from military service,[4][63][30][31][34][42][46][64][65] and in exchange for the suppliance of poor dhimmis.[28] In a treaty made by Khalid with some towns in the neighborhood of Hirah, he writes: “If we protect you, then jizya is due to us; but if we do not, then it is not due.”[66][67][68][69][70] Early Hanafi jurist Abu Yusuf writes:

    ‘After Abu ʿUbaydah concluded a peace treaty with the people of Syria and had collected from them the jizya and the tax for agrarian land (kharāj), he was informed that the Romans were readying for battle against him and that the situation had become critical for him and the Muslims. Abu ʿUbaydah then wrote to the governors of the cities with whom pacts had been concluded that they must return the sums collected from jizya and kharāj and say to their subjects: “We return to you your money because we have been informed that troops are being raised against us. In our agreement you stipulated that we protect you, but we are unable to do so. Therefore, we now return to you what we have taken from you, and we will abide by the stipulation and what has been written down, if God grants us victory over them.”’[71][72][73][74]

    In accordance with this order, enormous sums were paid back out of the state treasury,[72] and the Christians called down blessings on the heads of the Muslims, saying, “May God give you rule over us again and make you victorious over the Romans; had it been they, they would not have given us back anything, but would have taken all that remained with us.”[72][73] Similarly, during the time of the Crusades, Saladin returned the jizya to the Christians of Syria when he was compelled to retract from it.[75] Moreover, the Christian tribe of al-Jurajima, in the neighborhood of Antioch, made peace with the Muslims, promising to be their allies and fight on their side in battle, on condition that they should not be called upon to pay jizya and should receive their proper share of the booty.[12][76] The orientalist Thomas Walker Arnold writes that even Muslims were made to pay a tax if they were exempted from military service, like non-Muslims.[77][78] Thus, the Shafi’i scholar al-Khaṭīb ash-Shirbīniy states: “Military service is not obligatory for non-Muslims – especially for dhimmis since they give jizya so that we protect and defend them, and not so that he defends us.”[79] Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani states that there is a consensus amongst Islamic jurists that jizya is in exchange for military service.[80] In the case of war, jizya is seen as an option to end hostilities. According to Abu Kalam Azad, one of the main objectives of jizya was to facilitate a peaceful solution to hostility, since non-Muslims who engaged in fighting against Muslims were thereby given the option of making peace by agreeing to pay jizya. In this sense, jizya is seen as a means by which to legalize the cessation of war and military conflict with non-Muslims.[81] In a similar vein, Mahmud Shaltut states that “jizya was never intended as payment in return for one’s life or retaining one’s religion, it was intended as a symbol to signify yielding, an end of hostility and a participation in shouldering the burdens of the state.”[82]

    The second rationale offered by Islamic scholars for the imposition of Jizya tax on non-Muslims is that it was a substitute to the requirement of zakat tax from Muslims.[83]

    Thirdly, jizya created a place for the inclusion of a non-Muslim dhimmi in a land owned and ruled by a Muslim, where routine payment of jizya was a tool of social stratification and treasury’s revenue.[29][not specific enough to verify]

    Finally, jizya served as a reminder of subordination of a non-Muslim under Muslims, and created a financial and political incentive for dhimmis to convert to Islam.[29][need quotation to verify] The Muslim jurist and theologian Fakhr al-Din al-Razi suggested in his interpretation of Q.9:29 that jizya is an incentive to convert. Taking it isn’t intended to preserve the existence of disbelief (kufr) in the world. Rather jizya allows the non-Muslim to live amongst Muslims and experience the goodness of Islam in the hope that the non-Muslim will convert to Islam.[84]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

    Ffs do some more reading than just Muslim hating sites.

  • Bones

    It’s called sarcasm, Chris…..

  • Bones

    Because Apologetics is basically lying about others to justify your hatred of them.

    It is intellectual dishonesty and puffs itself up with false claims while striving to tear others down. Muslims do it. Christians do it…..

    The web is full of Christian apologetics sites against gays, Jews, liberals, Muslims, Catholics, Pentecostals, atheists…..

  • mai

    I bet you never heard the scholars who condemned that.and watch this:
    Watch “Islamophobia 1 – Ep15: Is it true that ex-Muslims should be killed? | By Fadel Soliman” on YouTube
    https://youtu.be/AyLLFe4DYZE

  • Bones

    Ffs….this thread is a lesson on ignorance….

    Can people actually read anything apart from Muslim hating sites before declaring themselves experts on the Quran, jizya, jihad, sharia???

  • mai

    The same thoughts i have regarding hitler and holocaust, genocide of native Americans, terrors of the KKK, terrors of the christian militia in africa, september 11, genocide of palestinians by the IDF, Hiroshima and Nagasaki., iraq invasion based on lies killing half million innocents, …..etc.

    Prophet muhammad pbuh faced the worst persecution ever, his companions killed, tortured, he and his companions driven out of there homes, he was called directly in his face a lier, a sooth sayer, a mad man,
    The gut of an animal poured over his head while praying, yet he never orderedfor anyone to be killed. 22 years later he conquered mecca after permission by god. He entered and the polythiests expected him to show the worst revenge ever, yet he showed mercy and forgiveness even for those who killed his dear uncle and mutilated his body.We dont need to kill for him, but we have to educate the truth about him.
    Watch this:
    https://youtu.be/GzTeS7zGoU8

    https://youtu.be/4RXvQis7XhI

    https://youtu.be/0P63YYmvqnI

  • Bones

    What a daft question?

    What did you think of the US invasion of Iraq?

  • Bones

    The Religion of Peace website is a Muslim hating site….

    And Christians believe their messiah was sinless…….

  • Bones

    You mean like Jesus was sinless????

  • otrotierra

    This is what white evangelicals don’t understand. Their comments tell us little about Muslims, and much about white evangelicals and their Islamophobia.

  • Bones

    Just on that …..the sinlessness of Mohammad is of much dispute among Muslims….

    Some claim he was infallible much like the pope….some say he only committed minor sins….some say he was sinless like Jesus….some say he wasn’t sinless at all….

    Yet again we see what a little bit of research can do, compared to the lies promoted by websites like Religion of Peace.

    Honestly every religion and cult thinks their founder is perfect.

  • Bones

    It’s pretty basic. Americans like to leave their guns lying around. And toddlers like to play with them.

  • Bones

    Wow… a text which isn’t accepted by many Muslims….

  • Bones

    Wtf…..

    Is Pope Francis the Messiah?

    You seem to have forgotten that according to Revelation Jesus will do jihad on unbelievers…..

    19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

    17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”

    19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

    20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

  • Bones

    Sam Harris has called for a Nuclear First Strike on the Muslim world…Like wtf does that mean?????

    That seems to be a violent jihadic act……

  • Bones

    Not according to history…….

    You obviously know no Muslims to have such a distorted dishonest view.

  • mai
  • mai
  • Bones

    Yes Trump=Stalin….derpaderp….

  • mai

    Watch this series and share
    Watch “Islamophobia 1 – English episodes” on YouTube
    Islamophobia 1 – English episodes: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQ15Iu5Vbki_QfocfxWGEPsGqEVeqWG7z

  • mai

    If u live in a muslim country, would it be fair that you pay obligatory charity each year according to islamic law?2.5 % of your money to the poor of the country regaedless of thier faith when you are not a muslim? You are not asked to pay that. Is it fair to fight against people of your faith with the muslims? On one side you share nationality with the muslim, but faith with the enemy. Islam wouldnt put you in such situation. But every nonmuslim MAN able to fight will be exempted but pay a tax.but the non muslim women, children, elderly, and the poor shall Not pay.
    Still in history, in egypt, christians fought by the muslim side , and so the tax was dropped.
    Divine justice.

  • Artistree

    Of course Pope Francis is not the Messiah. He is the current representative who holds the Keys of the Kingdom….See Matthew 18 which is a fulfillment of Isaiah 22.

    The literal and historical fulfillment of Revelation took place at 70 AD where God used the Romans to bring judgment against the unfaithful city Jerusalem.

  • mai

    https://youtu.be/-qs-wjHQ3bw
    Fadel soliman.
    Kafir vs infidel

    infidels?

    The word you refer to is ” كفر” ” kafara” means ” to be in disbelief”
    Kafir: who disbelieves
    Infidel , used by the crusaders, is a nonislamic word, nothing like it  is mentioned in the quran or by the prophet pbuh.

    Verse 5:17,” indeed, those who say,” God is the messiah, son of mary” have fallen into disbelief.Say , ( O muhammad) who has the power to prevent God if he chose to destroy the messiah, son of mary, his mother ,and everyone in the world alltogether?”. To God alone belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and everything in between.he creates whatever He wills . And God is Most Capable of everything”

    Watch this:
     https://youtu.be/-qs-wjHQ3bw

     https://youtu.be/IoHntBUhhHA

  • mai

    Isreal is what happened to islam.” The greater isreal “plan means weakening the muslim countries, divide and conquer strategy, demonizing islam, dehumanizing muslims, false flag attacks, dancing isrealis during 9/11 and spreading the lie of them being arabs, controlling the UsA government, controlling the media, convincing the christians that they are the chosen people and finally giving birth to the ISIS leader. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7015f871105be2c7ef01fa7ad91deec941884747b3917f61f20127092d36306d.jpg

  • mai
  • Doug Tozier

    I bet you don’t really think I condemn every single Muslim for the acts of the violent Muslims… But it IS a part of the religion. Just as there “peaceful” Christians now, but also violent ones both now and in the past. We should all condemn violence and abuse wherever we find it. I also never said that there aren’t ANY who speak out against those things… where did they learn to hold onto the nonviolence of their respective religions? Perhaps by exercising logic and human compassion…

  • mai

    https://youtu.be/WZPNP7E5jeY
    Miko peled. From isreal.
    Author of ” the General’s son”

  • mai

    I feel sorry for your muslim friends you stayed with.
    Watch all the episodes and unlearn the lies:

    https://youtu.be/zWbxG-jGKCk

  • mai

    I already answered, do you not understand english. Tell me what language you prefer, and i will learn it for you.

  • Bones

    Lol…the Pope holds the keys to the kingdom….pull the other one….

    And no….Revelation was written waaaaayyyyy after 70CE.

  • Bones

    Are the Muslims you meet trying to kill you?

    There would be a start.

  • Bones

    Oh so you disagree….like most Muslims disagree with terrorism….glad we’ve worked that out….

  • Bones

    So what?

    The article was false and your typical false generalised view of Islam.

  • Bones

    Neither do I….but he’s no Stalin….derpaderp.

  • Bones

    You agree you’re a moron…weird….

  • Bones

    Ffs they answered your question….

  • JD
  • JD

    We have the Koran and we have the history of Islam. We also know that Islam has committed the world’s biggest genocide in India and scholars reckon between 80 and 300 million Hindu’s were killed. Knowing that Islam allows followers to lie to and deceive non-believers their word means nothing. Unbelievers can only trust Islamic writings and its history to evaluate Islam.

  • Matthew

    Madness really …

  • Bones

    Yes it does.

    The context that the verses were written were in an actual battle with Christians.

    Muslims know that.

  • Bones

    No JD posted an errant article.

    The facts as to what muslims believe are somewhat different.

  • Bones

    You’re the one who agrees you’re a moron.

  • Bones

    College boy your false equivalence between western governments and dictatorships is beyond tangents and in the realms of lunacy.

  • Bones

    No. They answered it.

    You’re just being an idiot.

  • Bones

    So like most Muslims think about Charlie hebdo then.

  • Bones

    No. They answered it.

    You’re just being an idiot.

  • Bones

    I’m not an atheist.

    You’re wrong as usual.

  • Bones

    Yeah it is. Any comparison between a western democracy and Stalinist Russia is.

  • Bones

    Well use Google and look instead of being a lazy basted.

    It’s not that hard to find.

  • Bones

    Jews believe the same as well as most other religions.

    The quote said that because Islam viewed it’s prophets as sinless (ignorant at best) it is incompatible with other religions.

    Like Christianity does…oh and catholicism.

    And any other religion which has a guru.

  • Bones

    There was nothing vague about thinking the same as Hitler and the holocaust or the kkk.

    You really are just being a merkin.

  • Stephen

    Christians are still being treated as second-class citizens in Muslim majority countries. Nothing fair about that.
    https://youtu.be/9Jy0golTqRQ

  • Artistree

    Note from my study Bible summing up the debate between scholars regarding the late date of authorship and an early date:
    “Much of the internal evidence can be read to support a date before A.D. 70. All things considered, a date around A.D. 68 may be said to bring the greatest amount of clarity
    to the otherwise bewildering visions of the book.”

  • Bones

    Not in Palestine or Lebanon nor Indonesia or Syria before the civil war.

    Add to that Albania.

    That’s off the top of my head.

    In fact Muslims and Christians shared services in Syria.

    Iraq’s deputy pm was a Christian.

  • Bones

    No Muslim country has a jizya.

  • Bones

    Yeah your study bible is wrong.

    It’s about the destruction of the temple after it had occurred.

    The evidence is overwhelming.

    http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/revelation.html

  • Ivlia Blackburn

    Several things could be said about the above article, but then I read the comments already made and decided there is/was no point. Mainly because those who have written are obviously incapable of listenting to/reading comments from others who have a different viewpoint to their own. Just as it is really easy to find verses in the Bible telling believers to kill/murder any and all who hold a different viewpoint or who have different beliefs so too can you find similar verses in the religious writings of other practices. It doesn’t mean that people – rational people – believe and follow them. However, it is as easy to find Christians who preach against homosexuality as it is Muslims, and yes there are Christians who kill those who offend against their own personal beliefs. Go to many Christian countries and it will be easy to find dead victims of perverted versions of Christian practice, but they don’t merit time on international newcasts. The real problem is shown by the comments below, the complete inability of those who call themselves rational believers to accept any point of view other than the one held by themselves. And no matter how much proof their opponent can/will provide their inability to accept any other viewpoint will remain the same. Until mankind in general can accept that, and this includes all religious believers as well as those with none, then the killings will go on, because it is always easy to find a written or spoken excuse for murderous actions when the real reason is they just like to kill and find that saying so and so said/wrote that this was OK makes others listen and excuse their behaviour.

  • Artistree

    The evidence is not overwhelming for a late date.
    You’re still in the old school and not up to date on the changing views in Biblical scholarship.
    More and more scholars are building a solid and convincing case for an early date. That you base your evidence on oral tradition and the writing of St. Irenaeus, who although he was a good theologian, he was a poor historian and who said that Jesus died when he was 50 years old; that is not a solid building block.

  • JD

    The point I am making is that the Christian and Islamic view of Jesus Christ has little in common. Jesus is the eternal Word of God by whom creation came into being, being God He was incarnated as a human, became the sacrifice to for all humankind, defeated death and raised from the death, ascended into heaven from where He will return to establish His earthly rule with His Church (followers). The “infallibility” of the pope has absolutely no biblical support and is a serious false teaching. In Jesus at least 44 Old Testament prophesies were fulfilled, including His resurrection. He healed the sick, performed exorcisms, open blind eyes, raised the lame and death. he also prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple – all of which actually happened. He said: “I am the resurrection and the life,” “before Abraham was, I am,” “I and the Father (God) are one.” He further forgave sin and we know only God can forgive sin.

    Islam’s view is rather different and hence the common faith is negligible.

  • JD

    Can you be more specific, rather than make broad statements? It is hard to debate statements which has no logical argument.

  • IconoclastTwo

    “Claiming that Islam intends to live harmoniously with Judaism and Christianity needs to be interpreted in the light of the countless incidences of historic Islamic genocide on Christian and Jewish communities since its inception.”

    You can absolutely say the same thing about Christianity and Jews though with at least (if not more of) the same degree of historical validity. Furthermore, you can’t really point to a single branch of Christianity and say that its believers were the only ones engaged in horrible acts of religious intolerance when you can look, historically, at what Martin Luther had to say, modern anti-Semitism, the Inquisition, pogroms with regards to the Russian autocracy, et cetera.

  • JD

    If the above is true, it is quite confusing – what does the following Quran verses mean? Quran (2:191-193), (8:12), (8:57), (8:67), (9:5), (9:29), (47:3-4), etc. Are the messages not conflicting?

  • mai

    Not conflicting. Honestly i cant explain what u asked of here. I dont have the time or patience.
    But i will give you a good resource as a start.
    1- Islamophobia series by fadel soliman youtube.
    2- bridges foundation
    http://www.bridges-foundation.org/
    3- omar sulaiman youtube
    4- yaqeen istitute for islamic research
    5- Dr laurence brown youtube and all his videos.
    6- yusuf estes and guide us tv
    7- dr yasir qadhi on YouTube
    8- the deenshow tv youtube /facebook
    9- dr zakir naik
    https://youtu.be/xEb2nRYQa44
    10- finally, buy a copy of the quran. There are many mistranslations over the internet done by haters, or by ammatuer muslims. For example translation of the faces of the believers and nonbelievers on the day of judgement. The quran says bright and dark. The amatuer translation says: white and black. Haters use this example to support the notion that islam and its holy book is racist.And many other examples held against islam, but actually nothing but human mistake.I recommend this: the clear quran by Al-furqan foundation.
    I think you can get it for free.

    If you are sincere, you will understand.
    Good luck with your studies.

  • mai

    Watch the video to know it is NOT part of the religion.

  • mai

    Let me answer again in a simple way. Prophet muhammad was attacked verbally and physically. Poets reading aloud poems to critisize him( nowadays media), calling him a lier, mad man, sooth sayer, magician and yet he showed forgiveness. And you want me to kill people who critisize him nowadays?

    Yes i condemn the attacks , i condemn the killings, but i am angry of the drawings, but i know that all i can do, and should do is educate. Like educating you for example, and pray it is not a waste of time. And for the attackers, i leave their punishment to the almighty.

  • mai

    In December 2010, Laham was quoted by the Lebanon Daily Star as claiming that attacks against Levantine Christians, were part of a “Zionist conspiracy against Islam.” He reportedly stated that “All this behavior has nothing to do with Islam, but it is actually a conspiracy planned by Zionism and some Christians with Zionist orientations and it aims at undermining and giving a bad image of Islam”

    http://www.arabamerica.com/two-top-christian-leaders-former-melkite-patriarch-gregory-iii-greek-orthodox-archbishop-atallah-hanna-begin-hunger-strike-solidarity-palestinian-prisoners/
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7015f871105be2c7ef01fa7ad91deec941884747b3917f61f20127092d36306d.jpg
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6bfd86195eba3ef1464931329f1ac5904d3fb643b8ef933aacecdb1c7a89d12f.jpg

    Is it clear now?

  • mai
  • Bones

    Which is the same as other religions.

    The post was fallacious and sort to claim that Muslims cannot integrate with other religions.

    That is a complete and utter lie.

    No wonder you liked it.

  • Bones

    Wtf are you talking about?

    It’s called educating yourself by reading what Muslims say they believe – not Franklin graham.

    Of course people like yourself cling to any ignorant post to feed your hatred of Muslims.

  • Bones

    Lol….pointing out your errors and educating yourself isn’t apology.

    But you’re happy in your ignorance and bigotry like a pig in mud.

  • Bones

    Wtf…..The whole point of apologetics is to prove your cult is better than everyone else’s.

    Why are you using far right sources?

  • Bones

    Lol catholics aren’t real Christians now.

    Better post a link to “why I hate catholics”.

    And nah not all Christians believe in your doctrine about who jesus was, let alone coming back.

    BTW Christians and Muslims lived peacefully for over a thousand years in the middle east.

    You won’t read that on Religion of peace.com

  • MJMD2

    There is no approval in Islam for this kind of behavior, any more than the Christian faith approved lynching of black Americans in the deep South. The people who (very rarely) attack accused blasphemers in places like rural Pakistani villages — are they Muslims? Yes. Are they mostly poorly educated people, who are encouraged by ambitious local political leaders to hate other groups? Yes. Were the lynch mobs in the Jim Crow south made up of Christians? Yes. Were they mostly poorly educated people who were encouraged by ambitious local political leaders to hate other groups? Yes. (Although to be honest, the Jim Crow lynch mobs tended to include better-educated people than the anti-blasphemy mobs in places like rural Pakistan.)

  • mai

    They are prevelant but fall to deaf ears. Who is going to spread our point of view, foxnews? Saying the Truth is not going to serve thier agenda and the zionists behind them.

  • mai

    Add jordan to your list

  • mai
  • mai

    Thank you.
    but how can we help them understand?

  • mai
  • mai

    Unlearn this rubbish.
       The prophet muhammad peace be upon him taught his companions to respect people of all faith backgrounds and to care for everyone. He said ” donate in charity to people of all faiths”( musanaf ibn shaybah 3/177).
        He personally used to donate money regularly to sponsor a jewish family in his community.
        When the prophet saw a funeral procession of a jew passing by ,he stood up out of respect. when some companions pointed out that the deceased was not muslim,he rebuked them stating ” is it not a human soul?”( sahih bukhari 1250) .the lesson here is to respect all humanity.
    QURAN 60:8 ” God instructs you to deal kindly and justly with anyone who has not fought you for your faith or driven you out of your homes: God loves the just”

    Prophet muhammad said” whoever harms a non muslim at peace with us will never smell the fragrance of paradise,although its fragrance can be found a distance of forty years of travel) sahih bukhari 6516.

    On the day of judgment,  the prophet muhammad pbuh himself will argue on behalf of persecuted non Muslims and against the muslims who persecuted them ” if anyone wrongs a non Muslim at peace with us ,violates his rights,burdens him with more work than he is able to do, or takes something from him without his consent ,then i will be his  advocate on the day of resurrection” sunan abi dawud 3052.
    https://youtu.be/-qs-wjHQ3bw
    Fadel soliman.
    http://www.covenantsoftheprophet.com/
    infidels?

    The word you refer to is ” كفر” ” kafara” means ” to be in disbelief”
    Kafir: who disbelieves
    Infidel , used by the crusaders, is a nonislamic word, nothing like it  is mentioned in the quran or by the prophet pbuh.

    Verse 5:17,” indeed, those who say,” God is the messiah, son of mary” have fallen into disbelief.Say , ( O muhammad) who has the power to prevent God if he chose to destroy the messiah, son of mary, his mother ,and everyone in the world alltogether?”. To God alone belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and everything in between.he creates whatever He wills . And God is Most Capable of everything”

    Watch this:
     https://youtu.be/-qs-wjHQ3bw

     https://youtu.be/IoHntBUhhHA

  • mai
  • mai

    You are right , we dont hide it. It is in the quran.
    prophet muhammad warned us saying and i praphrase ‘do not extol me as the christians extolled jesus, for i am the servant and messenger of allah”
    We belive Jesus peace be upon him is a prophet, theMessiah. He is mentioned 25 times in the quran, muhammad peace be upon him is mentioned 4 times. Chapter 19 is named “Mary”.he fasted, he fell on his face in prayer, called god ” allaha” in his language, greeted others with ” peace be upon you” in his language . ALL SIMILAR TO MUSLIMS. He called god father which was not unusual at his time in his language. David peace be upon him  is also the Son of god in your bible.
    He had no father? Adam had no father or mother!
    And deutromony 18:18 ” i shall raise them a prophet from among their brethren like onto thee” like you Moses. Who is this prophet ?
    Is jesus like moses, or is Muhammad like moses?
    1-who had a father and mother and who was born in the normal natural course i.e the physical association of man and woman?
    2 -who married and had children
    3 -who is dead and burried
    4 -who had thousands of followers at their time
    Jesus peace be upon him had what? 12 followers? John 1:11″ he came onto his own, but his own recieved him not”
    5 – “among your brethren?”
    Who are the brethrens of the israelites other than the ishmaelites from whom muhammad (pbuh) descends?

    6- isaiah 29:12″ and the book is deliveredto him  that is not learned saying, read this and he saith, I AM NOT LEARNED”

     who is the one who couldnt read or write? Muhammad pbuh ! It WAS ACTUALLY the first conversation between him and the angle when he was asked : read! And he replied: i am not learned!
    And why is his name in songs of solomon 5:16 translated from clear ” muhammad – im”   and im in hebrew is plural of respect , to ” all lovely”

    Finally, we love jesus, he is the messiah, he is coming back to lead  The belivers from among christians,Muslims, jews, and all against the anti christ and his followers of who they call themselves Muslims, christians, and jews. And most importantly,  he will come back to tell you that he is NOT the son of god, and he is a PROPHET.

     https://youtu.be/cur_6aYs_7k
     https://youtu.be/HzPbS0RCvBE

     https://youtu.be/Rlhh9V26uac

  • mai

    I wasnt childing you, i dont know you or what you get your info from. But what i mentioned was a fact answering to your comment of the encounters and how it should be more prevelant.So how? If most people watch fox news and the like.

  • mai

    And i already gave a list of resources but the comment was somehow deleted.
    And i dont need to sugar coat my words to serve my case.
    I will provide the list again in another reply.

  • mai

    You reflected your own aggression on my words.
    Here is the list:
    1- islamophobia series by dr fadel soliman
    2- yaqeen institue for islamic research , its founder is omar sulaiman
    3- dr yasir qadhi youtube videos
    4- yusuf estes and guide us tv
    5- dr zakir naik YouTube
    https://youtu.be/xEb2nRYQa44

  • mai

    At least i should forgive?!
    Who is making assumptions now?
    Are you assuming i am mad at you?
    Or are you assuming i am angry and dont forgive others?
    P.S: I AM SMILING NOW IN A FRIENDLY WAY, AND NOT MOCKING.
    I will continue the list when i am sure my reply reaches you.

    And you are welcome Josh.
    Let me know if you need something else.

  • Smithy

    “…yes there are Christians who kill those who offend against their own personal beliefs. Go to many Christian countries and it will be easy to find dead victims of perverted versions of Christian practice, but they don’t merit time on international newcasts.”

    Ivlia, can you please give specific examples? It would be interesting to know. Thanks.

  • winabi

    I’m not here to defend Martin Luther.

  • Appreciate the reply.
    Many people believe the Koran teaches violence.
    Many people are dead in the name of Islam.
    No other religion is trying to establish world control through violence.
    No other religion would stand by and let some of its members perpetuate this charade.
    Why should anyone not believe what they can see and hear from the attacks around the world.

  • mai

    Honestly you are theone whois stretching it and trying very hard to find similarities while it fits muhammad peace be upon him like a glove

  • mai
  • Matthew

    For a long time Martin Luther was a complete hero of mine. Then I learned things like these. Sad really, but it does emphasize for me at least how broken even supposed heros are.

  • JD

    I am asking you to compare your statements with the quoted text from the Quran. I cannot find the connection. Can you please assist?

  • mai

    Watch islamophobia series by fadel soliman on youtube.you will get your answers.

  • mai
  • Beth Taylor

    Of course we should treat Muslims with love, respect, and kindness, just like any other human beings. And it is true that the vast majority of Muslims condemn suicide bombings and terrorist attacks. However, we need to remember a key difference between Muslims and Christians: Muslims revere only a version of Jesus, a watered-down counterfeit, because they do not recognize Him as God, or that Jesus said, “I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me” (John 14:6) and “I and the Father are One” (John 10:30), two of many iterations by Jesus asserting his complete Divinity. Islam rejects this in favor of its “prophet” Mohammed and god “Allah”. It’s true that Islam is closer than almost any other religion to Christianity, which is perhaps why Islamic conversions to Christianity are skyrocketing. That is, if they live somewhere that doesn’t follow Sharia law which requires apostates to be put to death. And that is part of Islam, even “moderate” Islam, along with troublesome laws about women, homosexuality, and more. We should love and extend friendship to Muslims we come in contact with, as well as extending them the hand of the true Jesus and the true Gospel.

  • Roger Morris

    Harris is one of the few sensible, honest voices in religious debates. You gotta get current on these things…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7T7barZEeU

  • winabi

    Dear Mai, Jesus spoke these words “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in Me, even if he dies, will live.” (John 11:25). He is the source of life. What He spoke was intended for you. and again in John 10:228 ” I give them eternal life, and they will never perish–ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.”
    Best regards, Ken

  • JaniceOly

    Saudi Arabia is not mainstream Muslim any more than Vatican City is mainstream Christianity.

  • Ramis Wells

    Then can you explain to me why your prophet said that he was going to expel the christians and jews from the arabian peninsula and leave none but muslims?

    https://sunnah.com/muslim/32/75

    Also, when muhammad was speaking about non muslims that were at peace with muslims that meant jews and christians that were being subjugated by muslims and forced to pay jizyah in humiliation.

  • Ramis Wells

    Of course there is approval of this kind of behavior in islam. This is the behavior that islam was spread by: killing people and terrorism.

    The difference between the whites that lynched blacks and the pakistanis that beat a man to death for supposed blasphemy is that there is NO justification for any christian to kill anyone, but muhammad had people killed for satirizing him. And muslims have to obey what muhammad said and follow his example (sura 4:80; https://sunnah.com/bukhari/93/1; sura 33:21) It is considered blasphemy to speak negatively about muhammad in islamic theology (which only proves that islam is false by the way).

  • Ramis Wells

    But I’ve heard a scholar that didn’t condemn killing of apostates and his name was Ibn Abbas. So who is the authority in islam: some random muslim or muhammad? Because muhammad said whoever changes his islamic religion, kill them. https://sunnah.com/bukhari/88/5

  • Ramis Wells

    The video proves that muslims will practice taqiyya and kitman to deceive people to promote islam.

  • Ramis Wells

    Why don’t you tell people that muhammad insulted the traditions, religion and values of his quraysh tribe which is why they wanted him to leave?

  • Ramis Wells

    If muhammad showed people forgiveness then why did he have people killed for satirizing him?

  • Ramis Wells

    I’m glad to help spread the truth about islam to people so they aren’t fooled by the lies told by muslims and muslim supporters.

  • Ramis Wells

    The soliders in the Iraq war weren’t shouting that they avenged Jesus.

  • tfjtoday

    Please assure me that ANY and ALL Muslims who enter Japan are not Wahabbists. Moreover, you have to prove that ALL Muslim immigrants revere or respect religious statutes of Muslims as well as those in other faiths.

    You are not giving me any assurance do you? It’s none of problems on my education.

  • mai
  • mai

    Knowing few arabic words without understanding doesnt make you look educated.

  • mai

    Yes prophet muhammad peace be upon him said whoever changes his religion , kill him.
    Now to understand this, you have to read actual facts in his life. Did he kill every one who left islam? He killed the ones who left islam and wanted to fight muslims and conspire with the nonbelievers against them. There are other cases of people who left islam, but prophet muhammad peace be upon him didnt go after them, or send anyone to kill them, bcz they didnt wage war against muslims, or conspire with enemies against them.
    Same thing was done by the companions who became khaleefa. Omar ibn alkhattab , during his khilafa , during hajj, an arab stepped accidently on the garment of an arab king who became muslim. The king got angry and slappedthe man in his face. The man went to omar complaining. Omar called for the king who didnt deny that. Omar said: he has the right to slap you the way you did. The king refused and said if this is your religion then i dont need it. He left islam. Omar didnt send anyone after him.

  • tfjtoday

    Refraining from beheading people while being called “pigs” is common-sense behavior in a civilized society and is not demonstrating that you’re extraordinary people. None of Buddhists, Shintoists and Christians engage in beheading when they’re called “pigs.” Why are you being so proud of such a normal behavior?

  • tfjtoday

    You can read someone’s heart without meeting with him by yourself! How amazing! You must be Uri Geller or Saiba Ba or things like that.

    If you have such a great capacity, why aren’t you able to give me a proof and convince me that there’s nothing to be afraid of about welcoming a bunch of Muslim immigrants into my country? That’s so bizarre.

  • tfjtoday

    Increase them in number, then they start bullying you (if you’re not Muslim.) That’s worldwide phenomena.

  • tfjtoday

    “declaring such acts of violence against innocent minorities as ‘un-Islamic’.” How lovely. But acts of violence continues anyway. Moderates have no power to stop extremists.

    And the same can apply to Muslims living in the west. Some commit terror attacks, some Muslims blame them and others keep silence. And terror attacks go on…..

    Moderates can make no difference in countries like Pakistan as well as in West. Why?

  • tfjtoday

    I’m not afraid of Pakistan’s law but am worried about people who support execution of those who allegedly “insulted” Quran, the prophet or their religion.

  • tfjtoday

    We have none of such incidents in my country. And I imagine that, even if people leave their guns around, no toddlers can kill 14 people (like San Bernardino) or 50 people (like in Orlando) at one time.
    Your argument really sounds silly.

  • tfjtoday

    All Arab men who have beard and mustache are not the ISIS leader. Please visit the following blog post I’ve written on this subject. Although it’s written in Japanese, you can see and compare pictures I posted closely and conclude that the guy on the picture is absolutely not Baghdadi.
    https://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/tfjblog/folder/1682632.html
    The guy’s name is Ahmed Hayyad.
    Also see the following video.
    https://youtu.be/dYCFvf5QQQs
    I hope you can wake up and break away from unhealthy habit of entertaining conspiracy theories.

  • tfjtoday

    “Many Muslims”? How many? Could you show number?

    As far as I know, this is the one of most famous biographies and contains his life records from birth to death in a comprehensive manner.

    I cannot find any comprehensive biography of “peaceful version” of prophet Muhammad who didn’t wage war, killed nobody and preached a gospel of “give your another cheek if someone slaps your cheek.” Where can I buy such a book? Amazon?

  • tfjtoday

    It is obvious that Pakistani law prohibiting”the blasphemy of ANY religion” is not being applied to prohibit the blasphemy of other faiths than Islam.

    Quran says Jesus was not the son of God. This is grave blasphemy against Christianity. But no lawsuit has been filed against this blasphemy. Why? Because Islam is given the specially privileged position over other religions in that country.

  • tfjtoday

    Is Mālik ibn Anas so famous? Does his view on the Benu Qurayza genocide constitute mainstream and is it taught in every Mosque, Madrasa, University and Islamic conventions and meetings?

    Anyway, I want to find out at least one comprehensive biography of “peaceful” version of Muhammad who didn’t wage war, rape a minor or tell disciples to revenge.

  • tfjtoday

    How many Japanese have you talked to before reaching your conclusion that they are responsible for alleged “rape” that occurred 70 years ago and they should apologize for it?

  • tfjtoday

    BTW, please give me some example of so-called bullying that you’ve witnessed. Are Muslims denied access to public facilities? They are forced to take part in Christian celebration? (In refugee camps, Christians are denied the use of kitchens and other facilities because they’re deemed “unclean” in the eyes of Muslims. Non Muslims are also forced to join Ramadan and if they refused they are violently abused. )

  • Bones

    Someone said god told them to invade Iraq.

  • Bones

    That had nothing to do with anything BTW.

  • Vinod Dawda

    Lovely thoughts. Nothing new as well! Sadly all religions talk great stuff about love and tolerance but lots of stories get cleverly distorted to spread the opposite. It is the practice that counts and not selective writings. Selective distortion is the tool used for centuries by those in power to feed their greed. This will continue as long as the greed continues despite well meaning great teachings by the ancients.

  • tfjtoday

    I’m informed about situations in America thanks to Mr Bones’ deleted comment, but I still have no reasons to believe that toddlers who incidentally found guns that their parents have left can pose greater threats than those who carefully planned mass murder in the name of their religion and succeeded in killing 14 (San Bernardino) or 50 (Orlando) people at one time.

  • Herm

    George, I really hate to bust your prideful bubble, but, no child of Man comes to the Father but by the Holy Spirit, Advocate, Spirit of truth that they may be born a child of God. All four gospels say that He appears as a dove to He who claimed to be the Son of Man!

  • tfjtoday

    I still have a enough common sense to assume that toddlers who found guns left around parents’ bedside can never pose greater threat than San Bernardino or Orlando attackers. Thanks.

  • Herm

    Stephen, my Lord means, today, that you carry your cross while wielding the sword from your mouth (not your sheath) against those who know not to love their enemy as their sister/brother, as themselves. Jesus did not start the “christian church” to ever raise a physical sword against any enemy, ever, but His disciples, then and today, do know to share their love for those who know not what they do. The constructive neighbor we emulate is the one who was the sworn enemy of the mugged and dying Jew on the side of the road. Your attitude, as I wield my sword against such spirit, is not one that teaches love of enemy by example as did Jesus from the cross and did most of His closest disciples there after.

  • Herm

    “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

    Luke 14:26-27 (NIV2011)

  • boB

    You didn’t read beyond the phrase that exists nowhere in the page except in your comment saying you didn’t read beyond that point?

    Ooooo-kay. Thanks for sharing nothing Captain Obvious.

  • Mushtaq Ahmad

    The problem is that MOST Muslims in the world are not Muslims — they are converts from other religions who said the qalima Shahadat, the first step to conversion, and stopped there.
    Turks, Iranis, Pakistanis, Indians or Bangladeshes etc do not understand Arabic in written or spoken form and, therefore, have only a vague idea what is written in Quran or what Islam stands for. Coercion is an essential part of Islam that is not mentioned in this article — it should have been!
    The hospitality and other good things mentioned above are the cultural traits of the people not contribution of Islam.

  • judyjudyjudy

    You say you have studied Islam so you know it all. I’ve read most universities are run by Governments. Islam therefore has a means to influence them through its degree of control over government decisions. Wealthy Muslims donate huge sums of money to universities around the Western world giving them the potential to influence decisions and policies. Leaders in most fields pass through these universities. Islam operates through intimidation. Gains power over people by making them afraid. How can they be considered peaceful when the Quran & Surah teach “Do not take Jews or Christians before you” or “cast terrior in the hearts of those who disbelieve or what about the 911 hijackers yelling “Allahu Akbar” after blowing up a plane with innocent adults & children on it or the picture taken after the Danish Cartoon Affair showing Muslims holding up a sign saying “Europe you will pay. Your 911 is on it’s way”.

  • Doug Tozier

    Actually, Christians were pretty evenly split on the issue of slavery. Many of our founders owned slaves. And they each had the Bible verses to back up their claims.

  • Ramis Wells

    Except for the fact the the Charlie Hebdo shooters were yelling that they avenged muhammad.

  • Ramis Wells

    Who said that?

  • Ramis Wells

    Most muslim countries don’t have christians to force jizya upon. If there are christians, they are usually either killed, jailed or exiled.

  • Ramis Wells

    Nothing about islam is fair to unbelievers. Is being called the worst of creatures fair? (sura 98:6)

  • Ramis Wells

    So the christians needed protection from the muslims that were subjugating them and then had to pay the muslims money for the protection they were getting from the muslims protecting them from the muslims?

  • Ramis Wells

    Jizya isn’t a poll tax, it’s extortion money.

  • Ramis Wells

    The only thing to understand is that muslims have to obey muhammad and allah (sura 4:80, sura 4:65) and muhammad said to kill those that change their islamic religion. That is why apostates can still be killed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huMu8ihDlVA

  • mai

    So, allah is the one who created you, gave you everything in your life,  and you dont believe in him ( after you had the proof) of existence, or you say he has a begotten son.  What are you implying exactly?    and   you want allah to call you what ? The best of creatures?
    Your father raised you, worked hard to feed you, cloth you, send you to college, then you mistreat him, you curse him, and you want him to consider you the best among his children?

    https://youtu.be/t1U1Kt7ZAIg

  • Bones

    Bush: God told me to invade Iraq

    President ‘revealed reasons for war in private meeting’

    “I’m driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, ‘George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.’ And I did, and then God would tell me, ‘George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,’ and I did.”

  • Bones

    You are lying.

    Why do you like lying about others?

  • mai

    https://youtu.be/t1U1Kt7ZAIg
    , allah is the one who created you, gave you everything in your life,  and you dont believe in him ( after you had the proof) of existence, or you say he has a begotten son.  What are you implying exactly?    and   you want allah to call you what ? The best of creatures?
    Your father raised you, worked hard to feed you, cloth you, send you to college, then you mistreat him, you curse him, and you want him to consider you the best among his children?

  • mai

    Deuteronomy 13:6-10New International Version (NIV)

    6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

  • mai

    Deuteronomy 13:6-10New International Version (NIV)

    6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.”

  • mai

    Ofcourse he insulted there traditions. They waged war against each other, commited usury, slavery, adultery, they burried thier baby girls alive, the oppressed the poor, they stole the money of the orphans, the worshiped stones they built with their hands like the people of abraham peace be upon him, they had no limits in marriage, they beat thier wives, the women had no right in inheritence except for the ones born in prestigious families, they mutilated the bodies of the dead in wars. Sure , ofcourse i will tell everybody that muhammad peace be upon him went against the quraish traditions, so they tortured his companions like bilal( may allah be pleased with him ), and killed many,  and drove them out of their homes leaving all thier belongings behind. And your point exactly?
    Watch this and focus on 2:15 sec :
     https://youtu.be/o61VoWKPc_Q

  • mai

    Yes, i di not know this figure of speech . English is not my first language. Thank you for clarification

  • mai

    So, allah is the one who created you, gave you everything in your life,  and you dont believe in him ( after you had the proof) of existence, or you say he has a begotten son.  What are you implying exactly?    and   you want allah to call you what ? The best of creatures?
    Your father raised you, worked hard to feed you, cloth you, send you to college, then you mistreat him, you curse him, and you want him to consider you the best among his children?

     https://youtu.be/t1U1Kt7ZAIg

  • mai

    So, allah is the one who created you, gave you everything in your life,  and you dont believe in him ( after you had the proof) of existence, or you say he has a begotten son.  What are you implying exactly?    and   you want allah to call you what ? The best of creatures?
    Your father raised you, worked hard to feed you, cloth you, send you to college, then you mistreat him, you curse him, and you want him to consider you the best among his children?

     https://youtu.be/t1U1Kt7ZAIg

    27: 59 -64

    ” say : praise be to Allah, and peace be upon the servants he has chosen, is Allah better, or whatever they associate with him?.
    ” who created the heavens and the earth, and sends down water for you from the sky, so we caused delightful gardens to grow? It is not in your power to grow its trees. A god in association with allah? Absolutely not! But they are people who set up equals ”
    “who made the earth as a fixed abode, and placed rivers in its midst, and made firm mountains for it, and made between the two seas a barrier? a god in assiciation with allah? Absolutely not, but most of them do not know”
    ” who answers the supplication of the coerced if he calls on him, and removes the harm , and makes you successors of the earth? A god in association with Allah? Very few of you are those who remember”
    ” who is the one who guides you in the darkness of the land and the sea, and who sends the wind ushering in his mercy? A god in  association with Allah? Exalted is Allah above what they associate with him”
    ” who is the one who originates the creation and shall thereafter repeats it, and who provides for you from the heaven and earth? A god in association with Allah? Say: bring forth your proofs if you are truthful”

  • JD

    I do belief in Yahweh Creator God, but Allah? Who is he? Not the same….

  • JD

    Yahweh created me, not Allah.

  • JD

    Prophet Muhammad, prophet of Allah is not Yahweh’s prophet… All references used to found him in biblical Scriptures are incorrectly interpreted. He is not a prophet like the prophets of the Old Testament….

  • JD

    Islam rejects western law, culture, tolerance and freedom. Islam’s bloody history – 80-300 million Indians, 0.5 million Greeks, millions of Armenian Christians, hundreds of attacks on Europeans and many more since its inceptions speaks for itself. There is nothing as Islamophobia, it is all very real….

  • JD

    Have you ever considered that you were lied to? There is no continuum from the Torah, prophets, Jesus to Islam – that is the lie you belief.

  • mai

    Do you know what yahwah means?

  • JD

    You see that is another lie you belief. There is no Zionist conspiracy against Islam. The Palestinian refugee crisis was created by Arab nations telling the Palestinians to leave so that their Armies can destroy Israel where after they could move back into Israel. The Yahweh defeated the superior Arab armies and the Palestinians were sitting on the wrong side of the fence. Not Israel, but the Islamic conspiracy against Israel. Israeli’s do not teach there children to hate Arabs and Muslims, it is the other way around….

  • JD

    Sure I understand, you cannot, it is impossible.

  • JD

    From which planet are you from? Islam has been on Jihad and killing people since its very inception. That is what Islam is, just calling it for what it is , is not demonising Islam.

  • JD

    I do not say that Catholics are not Christians, I point out a false doctrine.

  • mai

    You are a brainwashed zionists. I sent you many links for proofs, you didnt see, and you never will. Good bye.

  • mai

    You are a brainwashed zionist, i sent you many links for proofs, you didnt see and you never will.
    https://youtu.be/WZPNP7E5jeY

    https://youtu.be/qxQNk81ELbI

    And i am not answering you anymore.

  • JD

    My dear friend, what I said is the truth, you are brainwashed. I am seeking truth, find things out for myself. I do not nilly willy accepting what I am told. I am taught to think for myself.

  • Ramis Wells

    So you think that a god that says that semen comes from the backbone and the ribs created me?

    sura 86.5-7
    Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:

    allah does not know how creation works. allah thinks that man was created from semen in the womb of a woman for 40 days, then turned into a blood clot which is dead blood after another 40 days and then turned into a lump of flesh after another 40 days https://sunnah.com/muslim/46/1. Mind you, there is no egg in this process.

    Also, the God of the Bible loves me despite the fact that I sin agains’t him (John 3:16). The god of islam does not love sinners or disbelievers (sura 3:31-32; sura 2:276) so clearly allah did not create me because they don’t understand how to create and allah is a father to no one (sura 6:101) so the use of a father as an analogy is incorrect.

  • Ramis Wells

    Can you tell me what the torah is?

  • Ramis Wells

    As I’ve asked you before, can you tell me what the Torah is?

  • Ramis Wells

    Since most muslims don’t know any arabic words that would mean that most muslims couldn’t have understanding and therefore makes muslims look un-educated.

  • JD

    I do, but the god Allah described in the Quran is not the same as the one in the Torah…. I hold a masters in Biblical Studies. Yahweh revealed Himself to Moses as “I am,” similar to what Jesus said: “before Abraham was, I am.” He is Elohim who created all of creation. He is the of whom Moses spoke when he said: ”
    “The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,” (Deut. 18:15). This is a prophesy foretelling the coming of Messiah: Jesus Christ, who came from the Israelite assembly from the brethren of the tribes of Israel gathered at Sinai to receive the law from Yahweh. How on earth can this verse foretell the coming of Muhammad? The split between Isaac and Ismail happened about 520 years earlier to this event? Ismail’s descendents were not part of the assembly who came from Egypt and journeyed with Moses. Believing that this prophesy refers to Muhammad is a lie…

  • Ramis Wells

    The fact that taqiyya only exists in islam means that muslims are allowed to lie. I did not say that all muslims are liars but all muslims that believe in the qur’an are allowed to lie. So can you tell me when it would be a good idea to trust someone that you know for a fact is ALLOWED to lie?

  • Anything you write relative to gods cannot have merit. Its premise is a hoax and you are doing harm by promoting it. There aren’t any gods and all dogma surrounding gods is necessarily ancient bullshit not applicable to the modern world. You are either very confused or one very sorry person.

  • mai
  • JD

    In my discussions with Christians who converted from Islam, it is clear that they interpreted “taqiyya” to mean that they have license to lie to “unbelievers.” Refer to Sura 66:1-2; 3:28; & 16:106.

  • JD

    You must be joking. I read many reports and spoke to Christian pastors from various Islamic countries and read regular reports. This has nothing to do with Jews and Zoinism…

  • JD

    I am sorry, but explain the following Sura’s: 2:190-193; 2:214-216; 33:10-12; 2:246; 4:84; 8:39; 9:5; 9:29; 8:12-13; 8:39; 5:33

  • mai

    Not jews.
    Zionists.
    I refuse to say jews, or true torah jews.

  • Ramis Wells

    There was no war until muhammad began insulting the gods and traditions of the quraysh.

    http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/antagonizing.htm

  • Ramis Wells

    Then explain why your prophet said I have been made victorious by terror https://sunnah.com/bukhari/56/186

  • Ramis Wells

    Show me what I’ve lied about.

  • Ramis Wells

    Like what?

  • Ramis Wells

    You’ve conflated the notion of just because the majority of muslims don’t wage jihad that the sources of islam don’t teach it. That is completely false. The qur’an teaches muslims not to go for jihad all at once.

    The fact that you have to abbreviate sura 5:82 proves that you’re trying to deceive people as well because that same verse says that jews are the ones that are strongest in enmity to the believers. That verse is why muslims believe that jews hate muslims but it’s the other way around.

  • I listened to the first video explaining that Tony Blair misled his people about weapons of mass destruction. We hear the same thing over here about Busch. How do you know there were no chemical weapons? They could easily have been moved. They may have ended up in Syria where they were used.

    My point is that the Koran is being used to teach violence. Efforts to change that are met with denials and freedom of religion claims. I have sat in many churches and listened to many sermons and never have I heard about using violence to convert new members. Are you saying that certain Mosques and Imams are not subverting the youth of Islam? This is what I hear over and over.

  • Doug Tozier

    What’s your point? Is it the call to violent resistance to “other” gods? Then we agree- religion is violent- unnecessarily so.

  • Doug Tozier

    Only if you ignore the OT; Yet both Jesus and Paul (allegedly) said to uphold the law and that it was good for our instruction.

  • Doug Tozier

    So, let me get this straight: The Koran says to kill apostates, but some teachers say it is not necessary. So how authoritative is the Koran? If it is the word of god, how can a teacher of the religion contradict it? Sounds to me like the book is subject to interpretation, and modern thought is starting to mitigate its teachings. But that doesn’t stop any group of Muslims from following the Koran and enforcing their view of the laws in it. Essentially, we are right back where we started.

  • mai

    Dr zakir naik, islam against humanity

    https://youtu.be/1fO53WMM31M

  • mai

    Where does the quran say to kill apostates?

  • mai
  • mai

     

    عَن أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ رضي الله عنه أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ: ((مَنْ كَانَ يُؤمِنُ بِاللهِ وَاليَوْمِ الآخِرِ، فَلْيَقُلْ خَيْرًا أَو لِيَصْمُتْ، وَمَنْ كَانَ يُؤمِنُ بِاللهِ وَاليَومِ الآخِرِ، فَلْيُكْرِمْ جَارَهُ، ومَنْ كَانَ يُؤمِنُ بِاللهِ واليَومِ الآخِرِ، فَلْيُكْرِمْ ضَيْفَهُ)؛ رواه البخاري، ومسلم.

    “Whoever believes in God and the Last Day, let him honor his neighbor; whoever believes in God and the Last Day, let him honor his guest as he is entitled.” It was said, “What is his entitlement, O Messenger of God?” He said, “[The best treatment] for one day and one night; and hospitality is for three days, and anything after that is charity bestowed upon him.  And whoever believes in God and the Last Day, let him, speak good words or else remain silent.”
    One of the great Islamic scholars of Islam, Abu Hamid Muhammad ibn Muhammad al-Ghazali (1058–1111 CE) wrote a beautiful paragraph in one of his books about the generosity of Prophet Muhammad to his guests.  “(He) used to honor his guests; he even spread his garment for a non-relative guest to sit on it.  He used to offer his guest his own cushion and insist on him to accept it until the latter accepts [sic] it from him.  No one came to him as a guest but thought that he was the most generous of people.  He gave each one of his companions sitting with him his due portion of his attention, so he directed his listening, talking, looks and attention to all his companions.  His meeting [sic] were characterized by modesty, humbleness and honesty.  He used to call his companions by their favorite nickname to honor them…”

     You can search for more evidence
    Generosity was one of thethe goodtraits in the arabs the wasencouraged by islam, but its aim was redirected toward pleasing allah and not to show off.
    It was narrated that ‘Adiyy ibn Haatim said: I said, “O Messenger of Allaah, my father used to uphold the ties of kinship, and do such and such.” He said, “Your father wanted something and got it” meaning, fame.

  • mai

    It was narrated that Jabir bin ‘Abdullah said: “The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: ‘I have been given five things that were not given to anyone before me: I have been supported with fear being struck into the hearts of my enemy for a distance of one month’s travel; the earth has been made a place of prostration and a means of purification for me, so wherever a man of my Ummah is when the time for prayer comes, let him pray; I have been given the intercession which was not given to any Prophet before me; and I have been sent to all of mankind whereas the Prophets before me were sent to their own people.”
    Many prophets faught there enemies like david peace be upon him,  but the only one the allah bestowed on him the fear in the hearts of his enemies,even at a distance of a month, was muhammad peace be upon him.

    And the word “terror” is meant to translate the word “ru’b” in arabic , and it actually means ” fear in the heart” , not the “terror” that we know in this century.
    So i am not repeating if you noticed.

  • Doug Tozier

    Besides the fact that he says so in the video, try this link: https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/apostasy.aspx

  • whollyfool

    I would love for each commenter to include the number of Muslims they know/ have had conversations with / have seen on the street.

  • Ramis Wells

    Jesus said to Love God with all your heart, mind and soul and to love your neighbor as thyself (Matthew 22:37-40). If christians did those things then all of the laws of the prophets are included in that (Matthew 22:40). There are no amalekites, philistines, or any other group of people that were specifically named in the bible that can be killed today. And if there were, the ones that would be responsible for killing those people would be jews. But if killing of others were justified in the Bible such that christians would be allowed to commit murder then it stands to reason that christians would be the main religious group that commit acts of murder and terrorism around the world seeing as there are more christians than any other religious group. But christians are NOT the religious people that commit the vast majority of terrorism the world over. It’s muslims and the reason that it is muslims is because the sources of islam teach violence against the non muslim.

  • Ramis Wells

    Sura 4:88-89

  • Ramis Wells

    Your prophet is the one that said he was made victorious with terror which means that your prophet was a terrorist.

    Nowhere is it written that David is the good pattern of conduct to follow for those that hope to see allah and the last day and remembers allah much. But the qur’an says that muhammad is the example that muslims are to follow (sura 33:21). Therefore in following muhammad’s example, terrorism will continue because muhammad was a terrorist.

  • Ramis Wells

    Rumsfeld had more to do with that than God did.

  • Ramis Wells

    Firstly, I have never been a muslim. Secondly if you take the time to read the comments that I’ve posted you’ll see that I have included the verses from the qur’an and hadith when I make my claims.

    By the way, there is no wahhabism. Muhammad Ibn Abd al Wahhab just wanted to have everything the way that muhammad taught during his lifetime after he believed that people were straying from the true islam. So the real problem was muhammad and what he taught.

    With all due respect, you expose your ignorance and hypocrisy by claiming that people that speak against islam as a doctrine are spewing hatred against muslims such as Franklin Graham but speaking about a doctrine is not hatred against a particular people but because liberals and the left like to legitimize identity politics they conflate islamic teachings and theology with muslims as people. You can hate the constitution but that doesn’t mean that you hate american people.

  • Ramis Wells

    Then get prepared to learn that Jesus never died on the cross (sura 4:157)

    Muslims are taught in their qur’an if there is any doubt they should ask the people of the book (jews and christians) about the truth (sura 10:94). It’s not the other way around.

  • Ramis Wells

    Can you tell me why it would be considered “irrational” to fear an ideology that calls for the murder of people when you have adherents of said ideology willing to actually murder people?

  • Ramis Wells

    It’s even contrary to qur’anic scriptures. The qur’an calls muhammad a sinner in sura 48:2.

  • Ramis Wells

    The qur’an says that muhammad was a sinner (sura 48:2). So there is no way to dispute the sinfulness of muhammad. If muslims say that muhammad was not a sinner then they are claiming their god allah is a liar (which makes sense because allah is also called the best of deceivers) but it would render said muslims as blasphemers and as such they would be worthy of the punishment of death (depending on where the live in the world, or if certain muslims found out they made such statements).

  • Ramis Wells

    People under subjugation don’t live in peace with each other. The christians that had to live under islamic rule were humiliated. There was no harmonious peace as you’re trying to make people think it was.

    https://libertygb.org.uk/news/arab-and-islamic-supremacy-charter-umar

  • Ramis Wells

    First, what is the proof of your claim that Jesus wasn’t sinless?

    Second, exposing islamic theology is not muslim hate unless you have no idea how to separate people from doctrine which seems quite apparent that you can’t.

  • Ramis Wells

    Why is it that you only find taqiyya in islamic theology?

  • Ramis Wells

    No one is saying that muslims can’t integrate with other religions, but islamic theology which teaches insulting muhammad carries a punishment of death is incompatible with the constitution which allows freedom of speech.

  • Ramis Wells

    So according to you, the comments here which are speaking about islam as a doctrine constitutes a fear and hatred of muslims? Explain how.

  • Ramis Wells

    So the pact of Umar is false?

  • JD

    The Quran has a multitude of contradictions, see “Windows into the Quran,” by Daniel Scot, ISBN 978-0-9803244-2-6

  • JD

    Dear Veronica. All the scientists in the world cannot make a single living cell from scratch from naturally occurring elements in ideal laboratory conditions. The 2.9 billion base pairs of the haploid human genome correspond to a maximum of about 725 megabytes of data. It is impossible for so much coded data to randomly come together in DNA in a orderly coded (developed by random probabilities) fashion, the control systems (switching protein factories on and off), patron proteins, protein folding, protein factories in a living cell are amazing technological marvels. This all happened by itself? Never, never! Evolution teaching that living systems improve over time? The second law of thermodynamics is a parallel natural law indicating ever increasing entropy and chaos, not the other way around. There is an intelligent Designer/Creator, it really is foolish to debate against it in the light of ever increasing scientific discoveries of the complexities of the world around us and living organisms.

  • mai

    So , people want to kill you and you will meet them in battle feild, and you want God to throw in thier hearts what? Ticklish spells?

  • JD

    The Torah is the five Books of Moses in the Bible

  • Oh boy, another uninformed inarticulate creationist. There is nothing random about successful genetic mutations. Evolution fixes this over the millenia. Actually it is called evolution by natural SELECTION. Duh!
    Entropy has nothing to do with evolution by natural selection.
    What you need to do is go back to high school and first take general science, then bio, then chem., then physics and then try again.

  • Richard Worden Wilson

    OK, Ben, let’s do this point by point.

    1. Yes, in some sense Muslims love Jesus. But, they don’t love him enough to acknowledge who is according the the NT history of who he is. They consider the NT to be in error regarding who Jesus is, so who is the Jesus they love? The Jesus are misrepresented in the Koran.

    No doubt, 2. [Some] Muslims are some of the most hospitable people you’ll ever meet. Others are not only not-hospitable but are actually highly repressive toward Christians and Christianity–like virtually every Muslim dominated country today. Yeah.

    Right, 3. Most Muslims do not view Christians or Jews as “infidels”, nor are they instructed to kill us. At least not most muslims are not instructed to kill Christians, but by law most muslims are expected to uphold Islamic Law which suppresses Christian proclamation, open gathering to worship, build churches, etc.–you get the point, right?

    Sure. 4. Killing innocent people, and being a suicide bomber, are both actions that the Islamic religion forbids. Unfortunately, most of Islam doesn’t actually think of Christians as being innocent, but rather complicit in opposition to Islam, which we are in essence, right?

    Yup, 5. Muslims are most often the victims of terrorism. True dat. But as is obviously the case, it is most often as the victims of those who are the most adamant that they are the true Muslims. So, what should that tell you? In any case, so what? Is this actually an argument for anything, particularly against fundamentalist christians?

  • mai

    You are deceiving others, what about verse 90?
    you shouldn’t take the text out of context.  The verses talk about hypocrites who allied Mecca people who where in war with Muslims at that time, if you read one additional verse (verse 90) it ends by:

    “Therefore if they withdraw from you and not fight you, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah have opened no way for you (to war against them).

     The freedom of religion is clearly stated in Quran

     “There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong” chapter 2, verse 256

  • mai

    So, people are coming to kill you, and when you meet them in the battle, you want allah to throw in thier hearts what? Ticklish spells? No!, fear.

  • mai

    You are decieced bythis website, and you are deceiving others

  • mai
  • mai

    Isalm against civilization
    https://youtu.be/dZxd5fsMmwY

  • mai

    If you want to know torah, u ask a knowledgable jew, if youwant to know Quran , ask a knowledgeable Muslim

  • mai

    1-400 years of transatlantic slave trade, during which thousands killed, tortured, and raped.
    2-Genocide of american natives in the name of christ
    3- 90% of Australia’s aborigines killed
    4-crusades
    5- salem witch trials
    6-the lord resistance army in uganda
    7-the christian militia in central africa republic
    8-george bush who invaded Iraq bcz he had a dream jesus pbuh told him so, and killed about one million civilians
    9- Hiroshima and Nagasaki
    10- the KKK.
    11- the french killed one million algerian muslim during thier colonization in the name of christianity
    12- Wisconsin Sikh Temple massacre, Aug. 5, 2012.
    13- The murder of Dr. George Tiller, May 31, 2009.
    14- Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church shooting, July 27, 2008
    15- The murder of Dr. John Britton, July 29, 1994. By the Army of God
    16- The Centennial Olympic Park bombing, July 27, 1996. Paul Jennings Hill is hardly the only Christian terrorist who has been praised by the Army of God; that organization has also praised Eric Rudolph, who is serving life without parole for a long list of terrorist attacks committed in the name of Christianity. Rudolph is best known for carrying out the Olympic Park bombing in Atlanta during the 1996 Summer Olympics—a blast that killed spectator Alice Hawthorne and wounded 111
    15- . Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City bombing, April 19, 1995. Neocons and Republicans grow angry and uncomfortable whenever Timothy McVeigh is cited as an example of a non-Islamic terrorist
    16- 2015 dylan roof
    Charleston church shooting was a mass shooting, that took place at the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in downtown Charleston, South Carolina, United States, on the evening of June 17, 2015.           9 killed
    And the list just goes on.

  • Bones

    He shares a lot in common with Moses.

  • Bones

    I can see the post,

    “Like the author, I also studied Islam academically in seminary while pursuing a Master’s in Theology / Apologetics.”

    dickhead….

  • Ramis Wells

    Wahhabism is not a sect of islam. Muhammad Ibn Abd Al Wahhab restored things to the way that they originally were during the time of muhammad. So muhammad and his false teachings were the original problem.

  • Bones

    FFs, you are kidding me.

    You’re quite capable of Googling Muslim hate sites but can’t do a Google search on Torah.

    How stupid are you?

  • Ramis Wells

    If you think that Stephen took verses out of context then that proves that islam is false.

  • Ramis Wells

    So you understand the qur’an better than we do?

  • Bones

    It exists in the same way Christians protected Jews by falsifying their baptism records in WW2. Which Muslims enacted by sheltering Jews in Albania from the Nazis by claiming them to be Muslim.

    Only to save lives.

    Oh yeah you won’t read that on your Muslim hate sites.

    You really are pathetic.

  • Bones

    I have no label…..

  • Bones

    You haven’t heard of the Quran in English….like wtf…..

  • Ramis Wells

    Saudi Arabia is the country that islam came from. muhammad was born there and died there. It was the first Islamic State. They practice what muhammad practiced and it’s prescribed that every muslim has to go to Mecca at least once in their lives as one of the pillars of faith so how is Saudi Arabia NOT an example of 1.5 billion muslims?

  • Ramis Wells

    Can you tell me what islamophobia is?

  • Ramis Wells

    It doesn’t matter where a muslim lives, if they believe in the islamic theology they are commanded to be violent by the same qur’an and hadith. If they don’t do as commanded that’s another issue all together but the commands are the same.

  • Bones

    Actually Christians have been financing terrorism for the past century….including extremist Jews and Muslims….F*** Trump just gave Saudi Arabia $100 billion in weapons.

  • Bones

    Over a thousand years of Christians exterminating entire civiliisations shows your rhetoric to be empty.

  • Bones

    Because he was at war with them….ffs….Btw many Christians preferred jizyah over Christian and Imperial taxes.

    Jizyah meant that the Muslims would protect you. If the Muslim army were unable to protect a non-Muslim city, jizyah was returned.

    Oh yeah, you won’t read that on Muslim hate sites.

  • Bones

    Christianity has still killed more than Islam….there isn’t a continent which hasn’t been touched by some Christian genocide.

  • Bones

    That’s a hate site.

  • Bones

    Irrelevant….the US president was on a divine Crusade ordered by God himself.

  • Bones

    Wtf……Christians were exterminating Jews and other Christians…..

    That is plain dumb and shows no understanding of history.

  • Bones

    Everything about Islam…..

  • Bones

    I just proved that the Quran does NOT teach Christians are infidels, you lying piece of shit. But of course you have to twist that because you can’t be wrong in your hatred of Muslims. It has to be justified.

    Your ignorance shows you don’t even understand what jihad is.

    eg
    What Does “Jihad” Really Mean to Muslims?

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/10/1023_031023_jihad.html

    And your comment is the type of stupid rubbish that claims Muslims are waiting for the chance to cut your head off.

    Idiot.

  • Doug Tozier

    Well, it quotes the Koran and other teachings of Islam… so… whatever.

  • Bones

    That simply is not true…..

    The Jews themselves claimed that they drove Palestinians out of their villages….

    The villages of Lydda and Ramle were an example….

    “Once the Israelis were in control of the towns, an expulsion order signed by Yitzhak Rabin was issued to the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) stating, “1. The inhabitants of Lydda must be expelled quickly without attention to age.…”,[14] Ramle’s residents were bussed out, while the people of Lydda were forced to walk miles during a summer heat wave to the Arab front lines, where the Arab Legion, Transjordan’s British-led army, tried to provide shelter and supplies.[15] A number of the refugees died during the exodus from exhaustion and dehydration, with estimates ranging from a handful to a figure of 500.[16]

    The events in Lydda and Ramle accounted for one-tenth of the overall Arab exodus from Palestine, known in the Arab world as al-Nakba (“the catastrophe”). Some scholars, including Ilan Pappé, have characterised what occurred at Lydda and Ramle as ethnic cleansing.[17] Many Jews who came to Israel between 1948 and 1951 settled in the refugees’ empty homes, both because of a housing shortage and as a matter of policy to prevent former residents from reclaiming them.[18]”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus_from_Lydda_and_Ramle

  • Bones

    You’re both brainwashed….

  • Matthew

    I agree with the violent history of Christianity. Such cannot be denied.

    That said, what is up for debate (I think) is the heart of each religion — Islam and Christianity as examples. I believe that although, historically, the church has not looked and acted very lovingly, the heart of Jesus´ message is that of love.

    What is the heart of Islam? I ask this sincerely because I do not know. I hear voices from all sides. Does Islam teach deep and true forgiveness between God and man and man to man? Is Islam inherently a religion of peace, love, and mercy although there are preverted and extreme strains of it in the world?

    I would like to here from you Bones about this, but I would also love to hear from someone who is reading this who is also knowlegeable about Islam and its heart.

  • Bones

    Yeah….whatever….it’s a hate site….a propaganda site run for people like yourself to twist the truth and spread hatred.

  • Bones

    Don’t look here…look to Muslims…..

    How about you go out and meet some….

  • Bones

    That doesn’t even make sense.

    The key to understanding ancient religious texts is context….any basic historian or religious scholar knows that

  • Matthew

    I don´t have any close Muslim friends, I´ll admit that, but I do know some. The ones I do know seem peaceable and kind, but I´ll have to admit I have not had religious or theological conversations with them.

    Maybe I should …

  • Bones

    This is the same Saudi Arabia that Trump is giving $100 billion in weapons to?

    If you had a brain you would understand Wahhabism (think Christian puritans).

  • Bones

    Maybe you should…..

    I have some good Muslim friends on facebook.

    And my doctor’s Muslim.

  • Bones

    Yes it does….try Albania or Bosnia….they show yet again what a lying piece of shit you are.

    I was replying to the poster who is mixing up the Palestinian fight for independence with Islam.

  • Matthew

    Have you had theological discussions with them Bones?

  • Bones

    Yep….you don’t understand it all…you don’t even want to.

    You just pull verses out of your arse and make up crap to prove your hatred of Muslims.

    Well done….do you want a cookie.

  • Bones

    The only way you can defeat such hatred is through education.

    Eg actually getting to know Muslims, posting facts.

    Muslims need to counter the lies spread by Christians (lamentably) with facts.

  • Bones

    Not really.

    It doesn’t interest me as much as are they a decent human being.

    That’s my key criteria.

    And I have to say they are far more decent than the disgraceful clowns impersonating christians on this thread.

  • Matthew

    Thanks.

  • Bones

    If you believe in the second coming, you’ll believe anything.

  • JD

    But does not satisfy the requirements of the text. I would like to see the commonalities and differences displayed. On crucial areas there is big contrasts. Importantly, he was not from the Israelite assembly or from the Israel brethren.

  • Bones

    I see Muslims every day.

    They don’t worry me.

  • JD

    I can submit academic support for my claims, please be more specific in your statement.

  • Bones

    Do you even know that Islam incorporates a whole view of beliefs from sufism to sunnis and shia?

    That’s why people like yourself sound so stupid.

  • Bones

    99.9999% of 1.5 billion.

    In other words Mohanmmad sounds the same as Moses.

  • Bones

    Except it isn’t.

    The first crusade slaughtered Jews and Muslims as they defended Jerusalem together.

    People like yourself are still on a crusade via the internet.

  • tfjtoday

    Zakir Naik has been well known as a radical preacher and is banned entry into U.K. and Canada. He has made such extreme remarks as “every Muslims should be a terrorist,” which, in turn, inspired one of terrorists who killed several Japanese, Italians and other non-Muslim victims in Dacca, Bangladesh in July 2016.

    Nevertheless Mr. Naik was invited by some prominent Islamic organizations in Japan to give lectures at multiple major universities in the country. When he visited Japan for this purpose, a number of mosques, including the Tokyo Camii Turkish Culture Center, as well as foreign Muslims living in Japan and Japanese Muslim converts alike, have extended a warm welcome to this radical preacher.

    (His lectures were held prior to the Dacca incident. However, after the terror attack and ensuing revelation that Mr. Naik was one of terrorists’ source of inspiration, none of these institutions released any statement with regard to their stance on Mr. Naik’ preaching.)

    Because of this fact, I can never be rest assured in the face of a potential threat that mass-immigration of Muslims can create. Any of your arguments are not enough to dispel my anxieties.

    Even in Japan, many mosques, including the most prominent one, are obviously not interested in eliminating or actively opposing to extreme preachers, or at worst, they might be deliberately supporting a man like Naik. That’s so dangerous.

    It is no wonder that Japan’s police force is constantly monitoring all mosques in the country. I think they (Japanese police) know better.

  • Bones

    Not much point in quoting scripture to them when you’ve just poured a bucket of shit on them.

    But it made you feel good I suppose.

  • Bones

    The evidence is overwhelming and your nonsense is just that.

    The late authorship of Revelation is the prevailing understanding of modern scholars.

    Jesus isn’t coming back to rule with a rod of iron – no matter how much you want him to.

    Nope….no slaughter of non-believers either…..

  • tfjtoday

    Sunnis hate Shia. Shia hates Sunnis. Sufisim is regarded as heretic by some Muslims. Didn’t you know that my boy? Which newspaper are you reading?

  • tfjtoday

    You have no evidence anyway. And I am absolutely sure that you have never read the book of Moses or are lacking capacity to understand what’s written in it, or both.

    And despite my repeated requests, you have not yet to give me a link to a comprehensive biography of “peaceful” version of Muhammad who had never waged war against infidels, mass-murdered captives or taken sex slaves.

    Please give me such a book, if there is any. Please.

  • Bones

    Muslims terror attacks mainly target Muslims….

    Yes they want them to stop…

    Moron.

  • Bones

    As I thought……

    ‘Every Muslim should be a terrorist’ statement taken out of context: Zakir Naik

    Founder of Islamic Research Foundation, Zakir Naik, who is under fire from all quarters, condemned Bangladesh terror attacks on Thursday.

    http://zeenews.india.com/news/india/every-muslim-should-be-a-terrorist-statement-taken-out-of-context-zakir-naik_1904811.html

    A pretty dumb comment but your dishonesty is there for all to see.

  • Bones

    Sufis and shia are still Muslims.

    You obviously have no idea what they believe, idiot.

  • Bones

    Well yeah i do…..the 99.9999% of Muslims who aren’t terrorists.

    And i couldn’t be bothered because you’re a dishonest hateful merkin.

  • tfjtoday

    Here are only a couple of examples of Mr. Naik’s peaceful teachings.
    “Westerners are like Pigs”
    https://youtu.be/OZ3u-Wp63zc
    “There’s no problem if you marry a 13 year old girl”
    https://youtu.be/DdYuhWPXwhI
    “Punishment for apostates is death”
    https://youtu.be/JRl5c-xPVA0

    If Muslims living in Japan warmly welcome a person who upholds these views, it is scary enough to me. It is totally unacceptable.

    Thanks for your advice.

  • tfjtoday

    I hope that someday your fellow Muslims in all over the world finally succeed in completely eradicating extremist terror attacks.

    If they have succeeded in doing so, I will consider approving their immigration into my country.

    Thanks for your advice.

  • JD

    I am glad you brought up the issue of the Crusades. Islam fought more than 548 battles against the old Grecian and Roman empires, while there were less than 20 battles all together associated with the Crusades. The Crusades cannot even be compared to the extend of the Islam Jihad battles which went on for far longer, and is still continuing to this day. And why were the Muslims in Jerusalem at the time of the first Crusade? Because of Jihad. it was not their country, the Jews lived there, not Arabs. See the following short video which will help you to understand this subject in a better context:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_To-cV94Bo

  • tfjtoday

    No you don’t have any evidence and neither can you read what Muslims are really thinking or believing.

    In my country, they warmly welcomed a man who teaches that Westerners are pigs, there’s no problem marrying a 13-year old girl and penalty for apostates is death. This is unacceptable.

    Thanks for your kindness.

  • Artistree

    Bones, you should complain to the Secretariat for Doctrine and Pastoral Practices, National Conference of Catholic Bishops which approved this best selling Catholic Study Bible in the US. Ignatius Press and their Study Bible is out selling and out teaching those kangaroo chasing scholars of yours.

  • tfjtoday

    Yes, they all profess to be Muslims, of course. And Sunnis ans Shia hate each other since the days of Ali. 

    And reason you keep insulting me is that you have no evidence at all and you cannot refute me.

    I know that the best thing you can do is just hurling insult.

    Thanks for your kindness.

  • JD
  • JD

    Dear Veronica, please explain how the 2.9 billion base pairs of the haploid human genome (about 725 megabytes of data) can spontaneously get together is the right sequence? What is the probability of that happening, even if it was put together by someone (which you claim there was none). How can a living cell spontaneously form and how can it be animated (come to live). There is no logical explanation. Please demonstrate how life started in a credible fashion, remember science is observable and repeatable, and according to you it happened all by itself, not in labs, not by human intervention. Until it can be observed and repeated it it is not science, it is a fairy tale.

  • mai

    I know this guy, just a liar.

  • Dean

    The thing with conspiracy theories is how difficult they are to pull off which is why they are so rare. It’s human nature to tell secrets, which is why big ones are so hard to keep. It is literally a product of evolution, telling secrets help create bonds of trust among small groups of people, which is why we like doing it so much. I’m just saying the likelihood that this stuff you’re posting is true is very very low. Try Occam’s Razor my friend, in life and politics. I think you’ll be happier for it.

  • Doug Tozier

    Bones is going to say that anything in disagreement with his view is hate or lying or dishonest. There will be no winning with him, because we can present facts from their own holy books and teachings, and he will simply deflect to his ad hominem attacks.

  • mai
  • Doug Tozier

    Not only are you completely wrong, but ignorant of your own holy book. The OT commands (there’s a nonsequiter for ya) the same things- love, etc- and all your claim does is say that certain people are allowed to kill the heathen, but others aren’t. Is it not STILL KILLING? In the very least, your god is inconsistent; at worst, he is genocidal and racist. So, is he a senseless liar, or mass-murderer? No matter, all of the discrepancies in the Bible tell me that he is irrelevant. The same yesterday, today, and forever…

  • Doug Tozier

    So if you repent and make peace with Islam you are okay with Allah, but otherwise… death!!! Sounds free will to me!

  • JD

    No, I think he made a good summary of recorded history. It is like the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, recorded in the Bible, orally handed over from generation to generation, recorded in secular Jewish and Roman history and it is still disputed and called a lie by people that lived more than
    600 hundred years later – amazing!.

  • mai
  • winabi

    +Veronica Hamel… natural selection selects and retains part. It does not form any new entity.

  • JD

    It is convenient to quote parts of what people wrote without presenting the complete argument along with the conclusions of Christian writers. A very artistic but dishonest approach to the use of writing by others. If this sort of deficient presentation and work excites you and satisfy your search for truth; I am sorry to say you will never find truth… Blessed be the risen Saviour Jesus Christ who appeared to more than 500 brothers, along with women. Even to this day He heals the sick, perform miracles and perform exorcisms., similar to what He did in the flesh.

    If the history of Jesus’ crucifixion only had Christian sources, you could possibly say it was biased – however, in the midst of persecution and in the face of death these people never recanted. These people would not have done so if the crucifixion was a hoax. Moreover the secular Roman historian Tacitus in His “Annals”, who referred to Christians in a very negative manner, confirms the historicity of Jesus Christ and his crucifixion. In addition, the Jewish historian Josephus, in his “Antiquities of the Jews” (93-94 AD), confirms the same as well.

    You really need a desire to deceive to argue around these historic facts…

  • Bones

    Why?

    Should I write to the Jehovahs Witnesses as well.

    Your cult issues propaganda – not scholarship….in fact if it goes against Catholic teaching you are expelled and defrocked (unlike child rapists and their supporters).

    Heck you can keep hating people for using contraception because of some stupid invented reasoning if you want.

    Or discriminating against gays and women….

  • Bones

    Bill Warner – another Muslim hater and self-appointed expert on Islam….I can see where you get your misinformation from.

    The Saracens took Jerusalem in 636CE. Prior to that Jews were massacred in Jerusalem and Palestine by Christians. The simple fact is the Jews hated the Christians because they were relentlessly persecuted by them and banned form Jerusalem and welcomed the Muslims who allowed them to freely worship. In fact they had autonomy until the massacres of the First Crusade.

    This was a time when Christians were slaughtering Jews and other christians.

    In fact, crusaders practised on Jews before even getting to the Holy Land.

    “In May, 1096, in a period of four weeks frenzied bands of Crusaders struck the Jewish communities of Speyer, Worms, Mainz, and Cologne. The Jews were offered the option of conversion to Christianity or death; the vast majority chose the path of Kiddush HaShem, sanctification of G‑d’s name. Rather than submit to forced conversion, in many cases Jews killed their wives and children, and then themselves. In the words of one of the Kinnos recited on Tisha B’Av: “Who can see it and not cry/As the child is slaughtered, the father recites the Shema/ Has such been seen or heard before?” Estimates of the toll taken on the Jewish communities range from 3,000 to 10,000 deaths.

    These heroic martyrs have been immortalized in Jewish history as saintly people who reached the highest spiritual levels. In the Selichos service for the eve of Rosh HaShanah, Jews implore G‑d to remember those who sacrificed their lives: “The bloods of fathers and sons touched, the bloods of merciful women and their children touched, the bloods of brothers and sisters mixed, the bloods of grooms and brides, wise men and wise women, pious men and pious women, elderly men and women, young men and women, all mingled. O land, do not conceal their blood!”

    Undaunted, unstoppable, the Crusaders conquered Eretz Israel,reaching Jerusalem in 1099. Once there, they gathered all the Jews of Jerusalem into the central synagogue and set it afire. Other Jews, who had climbed to the roof of Al-Aksa mosque on the Temple Mount, were caught and beheaded. The Crusader leader, Godfrey of Bouillon, wrote to the Pope, “If you want to know what has been done with the enemy found in Jerusalem…our people had their vile blood up to the knees of their horses.” After this victory, the Crusaders retained control of Jerusalem for close to 100 years.”

    http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2617029/jewish/The-Bloody-Crusades.htm

    FFS its bizarre people like you and dickhead Bill still defend it.

  • Bones

    Well we managed to civilise you lot…..Even if you refuse to acknowledge the rape perpetuated by your own soldiers.

  • tfjtoday

    You’ve yet to be civilized buddy. Thanks
    BTW “my own soldiers?” I was born 1970s. What’s wrong with your sense of time?
    Plus “idiot” is not a desirable word for civilized people is it?. Moreover, no English teachers taught me how to hurl the word “moron” to someone. Probably it was too indecent. I hope would grow into an adult someday.

  • Bones

    Yes it does…….

  • Bones

    The mapping of the genomes is the death knell for creationism…..

    “Until it can be observed and repeated it it is not science, it is a fairy tale.”

    That would be Adam and Eve….

  • Bones

    I can submit history to support my claims -not some youtube propagandists….

    eg the extermination of the Incas, Aztecs, Australian Aborigines, Jews…..

  • Bones

    No…he’s a liar….

    The Crusades slaughtered thousands of Jews.

  • Bones

    Wtf…..Read the bible….

    When you get off Muslim hate sites.

    I suppose thinking for yourself is hard.

  • Bones

    You mean like Wahabbists?

    Trump just gave them $100 billion in weapons.

    You are just a liar.

  • Bones

    So’s the Bible….

  • Bones

    That’s complete bs.

    Christians and Muslims have lived peacefully in Palesine for over a thousand years.

    That’s a fact.

    How do I know.

    I know Palestinian Christians, you lying piece of shit.

    In many cases the populations welcomed Muslims who let them worship freely and didn’t forcefully convert them like the Christians did.

    Actually, in spain, the natives from the Iberian Peninsula welcomed Muslims and were happy to see someone that respected their faith and their traditions and had similar beliefs as the majority of the natives of Hispania were Unitarian Christians. They believed in only one God, saw Jesus as a Prophet and awaited the Messiah, exactly as Muslims. The following treaty was signed in 713 CE-within two years after the first organized entry of Muslims into Spain from the south under the command of Tariq ibn Ziyad-between the Arab commander Abdal-Aziz and Theodomir, the Visigothic prince of Murcia, is a proof of the freedoms the natives of Hispania enjoyed after the Arab conquests.

    In the Name of God, the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate. This is the text that Abd al Aziz ibn Musa presented to Teodomiro ibn Gandaris, in virtue in which it is agreed that in the territory will be in peace by the promising it to God, His Prophets and His Messengers that this territory will be protected by God y the protection of His Messenger Muhammad- peace be upon him. Nobody will be forced, nothing will be taken away from you; Nobody will be slaves; you will not be separated from your wife or children; you lives will be respected; you will not be killed and your churches will not be burned down. You will be free to practice your own religion. (Text of the Treaty of the Visigoth Ruler of Murcia, Teodomiro and Abd Al Aziz).7

    “In the name of God, the merciful and compassionate. This is a document [granted] by ‘Abd al-‘Aziz ibn Musá ibn Nusair to Tudmir, son of Ghabdush, establishing a treaty of peace and the promise and protection of God and his Prophet) may God bless him and grant him peace). We [‘Abd al-‘Aziz] will not set special conditions for him or for any among his men, nor harass him, nor remove him from power. His followers will not be killed or taken prisoner, nor will they be separated from their women and children. They will not be coerced in matters of religion, their churches will not be burned, nor will sacred objects be taken from the realm, [so long as] he [Tudmir] remains sincere and fulfills the [following] conditions that we have set for him. He has reached a settlement concerning seven towns: Orihuela, Valentilla, Alicante, Mula, Bigastro, Ello, and Lorca. He will not give shelter to fugitives, nor to our enemies, nor encourage any protected person to fear us, nor conceal news of our enemies. He and [each of] his men shall [also] pay one dinar every year, together with four measures of wheat, four measures of barley, four liquid measures of concentrated fruit juice, four liquid meastures of vinegar, four of honey, and four of olive oil. Slaves must each pay half of this amount. {Names of four witnesses follow, and the document is dated from the Muslim month of Rajab, in the year 94 of the Hijra (April 713).} “The Treaty of Tudmir” in Reading the Middle Ages: Sources from Europe, Byzantium, and the Islamic World. ed. Barbara H. Rosenwein. Peterborough, Ont.: Broadview, 2006, p. 92.

    http://www.fountainmagazine.com/Issue/detail/Myth-or-Reality-The-Invasion-and-Spread-of-Islam-in-Spain

  • Bones

    Which is irrelevant….the simple fact is Christians believe in sinless people…..all religions see their founders as perfect.

  • Bones

    Propaganda isn’t facts….you’ve been shown to be lying all through this thread…..such is your hatred of others.

  • Bones

    First….Irrelevant….and not a question which remotely interests me.

    Second….you aren’t exposing Islamic theology. You are lying.

    You have lied all the way through this thread.

    The fact that you continue posting shows that your hatred is pathological.

  • Bones

    That is not a belief shared by most Muslims.

    Ffs we have people here like you calling Muslims pigs and nothing happens to them.

  • Bones

    You mean like the Old Testament?

    Oh f***k that’s right Christians support extremist Jews taking land from Palestinians because their text says.

  • Bones

    Because you lie about them. That comes out of fear and hatred.

  • Bones

    Do they wear a badge?

  • Bones

    Wtf…you people cut off my relatives’s heads…..

    And now Muslims are critiissed for not cutting off heads.

    Why are you a dickhead?

  • Bones

    You people are so easy to read.

    Your hysterical rantings about Islam are all over this thread.

  • Bones

    Wtf…..are you people incapable of using the internet except to post Muslim hating shite?

    CLAIM
    Toddlers killed more Americans than terrorists in 2015.

    RATING
    TRUE

    http://www.snopes.com/toddlers-killed-americans-terrorists/

  • Bones

    We’ve had more Muslims around here.

    No problems….

    Actually plenty of Japs too…..

    If they’re like you they can f*** off.

  • Bones

    The bullying is the hatred spewing out from people such as yourself.

    Admit it.

    You hate Muslims.

    You admitted you don’t want them in your country.

    Funny because the Christians I know in Palestine aren’t ‘forced’ to do anything by their Muslim neighbours.

  • Bones

    Meh…my parents hated Japs for what they did to their family.

    Muslims have never hurt us at all.

    There are still some dregs like yourself who need to be civilised and who excuse the rape of their soldiers in war.

    What a complete and utter merkin you are.

  • Bones

    You don’t have evidence of anything.

    And your posts show that you are a complete and utter idiot,.

    i mean anyone who excuses rape in war is.

    Maybe you’re a Muslim.

  • Bones

    No you have none…..

    You just cling to the all Muslims are terrorists lie and pluck any old quote to say that’s what Muslims believe.

    They don’t and i know them.

    You don’t.

    You are a lying merkin.

  • Bones

    I’d say it’s not far from the truth.

    Conservatives hate others who are different….including other conservatives.

  • Artistree

    Homosexual Roman Catholic Priests who have sex with young men and young boys should be defrocked and go to jail. Actually I’m an Anglican Catholic but recognize the Universal Household of God which you have set yourself up as her enemy, although it’s fine to note her failings and faults.

  • Bones

    Anglican Catholics are worse.

    They try to be even more Catholic than the real ones with their open hatred of gays.

    They belong to a divided organisation which disciplines those who welcome gay people while having in its fellowship those who support the criminalisation and death of gay people.

    But hey – so long as you still get paid.

    Well that’s a vast enemy isn’t it – Muslims, Jews, other religions, atheists, homosexuals, married couples who use contraception, people who support women in ministry, liberals and basically anyone who isn’t like you.

    Poor Aristree – waiting in hope for the future jihad on non-believers (ie people he doesn’t like eg Desmond Tutu) which is never going to happen….

  • Bones

    Is there a commentator who spends so much time backtracking on the rubbish he writes or whining about how he has been represented?

    “129 “What will we do if an Islamist regime, which grows dewy-eyed at the mere mention of paradise, ever acquires long-range nuclear weaponry? If history is any guide, we will not be sure about where the offending warheads are or what their state of readiness is, and so we will be unable to rely on targeted, conventional weapons to destroy them. In such a situation, the only thing likely to ensure our survival may be a nuclear first strike of our own. Needless to say, this would be an unthinkable crime—as it would kill tens of millions of innocent civilians in a single day—but it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe. How would such an unconscionable act of self-defense be perceived by the rest of the Muslim world? It would likely be seen as the first incursion of a genocidal crusade. The horrible irony here is that seeing could make it so: this very perception could plunge us into a state of hot war with any Muslim state that had the capacity to pose a nuclear threat of its own. All of this is perfectly insane, of course: I have just described a plausible scenario in which much of the world’s population could be annihilated on account of religious ideas that belong on the same shelf with Batman, the philosopher’s stone, and unicorns.””

    Look out Iran.

    There is nothing sensible with Sam Harris….he should stick to neuro-surgery. He knows f*** all about world affairs. And his attempt to court Chomsky after dishonestly taking him out of context (how ironic) was f***ing embarrassing.

    But his fanboys love him.

  • Artistree

    Bones,
    It’s those Secular Fundamentalist Anti- Christian bigots such as yourself who are the haters. Just look at all the nasty hateful foul comments you make to various people on a regular basis. The Church is the Family of God and also a hospital for sinners who seek to have their lives mended by continual conversion finding mercy and forgiveness.
    You’re free to mock and persecute the King’s followers, but the Church, being the restored Davidic Kingdom, is the largest and longest reigning monarchy in human history….so good luck in your fight against us. We are Kingdom which has no end.

  • Doug Tozier

    Yeah, like when I quote the Koran and the Bible… clearly lying. Go ahead, keep up the ad hominem… it keeps your cred at zero.

    Yes, I did accuse the video of propaganda; because that’s what you call it when the “blanks” are filled-in to make the story fit your agenda.

  • mai

    ‘ they were condemned’ for breaking their covenant, rejecting God’s signs, killing the prophets unjustly, and for saying ” Our hearts are unreceptive!” – it is God who sealed thier hearts for thier disbelief, so they do not believe except for a few-. And for their denial and outrageous boasting , ” We killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God.” But  they neither killed nor crucified him- it was only made to appear so. Even those who argue for this ” crucifixion” are in doubt. They have no knowledge whatsoever- only making assumptions. They certainly did not kill him. Rather, God raised him up to himself. And God is Almighty, All- Wise. Every one of the people of the book will definitely believe in him before his death.  And on the day of judgement Jesus will be a witness against them.

    ” His death” here means in the future after he kills the antichrist.

  • rationalobservations?

    You demonstrate that the alternative to evolution is not creationism – it is ignorance.

    This blanket dismissal of evolution ignores important distinctions that divide the field into at least two broad areas: microevolution and macroevolution. Microevolution looks at changes within species over time–changes that may be preludes to speciation, the origin of new species. Macroevolution studies how taxonomic groups above the level of species change. Its evidence draws frequently from the fossil record and DNA comparisons to reconstruct how various organisms may be related.
    These days even most creationists acknowledge that microevolution has been upheld by tests in the laboratory (as in studies of cells, plants and fruit flies) and in the field (as in Grant’s studies of evolving beak shapes among Gal¿pagos finches). Natural selection and other mechanisms–such as chromosomal changes, symbiosis and hybridization–can drive profound changes in populations over time.
    The historical nature of macroevolutionary study involves inference from fossils and DNA rather than direct observation. Yet in the historical sciences (which include astronomy, geology and archaeology, as well as evolutionary biology), hypotheses can still be tested by checking whether they accord with physical evidence and whether they lead to verifiable predictions about future discoveries. For instance, evolution implies that between the earliest-known ancestors of humans (roughly five million years old) and the appearance of anatomically modern humans (about 100,000 years ago), one should find a succession of hominid creatures with features progressively less apelike and more modern, which is indeed what the fossil record shows. But one should not–and does not–find modern human fossils embedded in strata from the Jurassic period (144 million years ago). Evolutionary biology routinely makes predictions far more refined and precise than this, and researchers test them constantly.
    Evolution could be disproved in other ways, too. If we could document the spontaneous generation of just one complex life-form from inanimate matter, then at least a few creatures seen in the fossil record might have originated this way. If superintelligent aliens appeared and claimed credit for creating life on earth (or even particular species), the purely evolutionary explanation would be cast in doubt. But no one has yet produced such evidence.
    It should be noted that the idea of falsifiability as the defining characteristic of science originated with philosopher Karl Popper in the 1930s. More recent elaborations on his thinking have expanded the narrowest interpretation of his principle precisely because it would eliminate too many branches of clearly scientific endeavor.

    The origin of life remains very much a mystery, but biochemists have learned about how primitive nucleic acids, amino acids and other building blocks of life could have formed and organized themselves into self-replicating, self-sustaining units, laying the foundation for cellular biochemistry. Astrochemical analyses hint that quantities of these compounds might have originated in space and fallen to earth in comets, a scenario that may solve the problem of how those constituents arose under the conditions that prevailed when our planet was young.
    Creationists sometimes try to invalidate all of evolution by pointing to science’s current inability to explain the origin of life. But even if life on earth turned out to have a nonevolutionary origin (for instance, if aliens introduced the first cells billions of years ago), evolution since then would be robustly confirmed by countless microevolutionary and macroevolutionary studies.

  • rationalobservations?

    Chance plays a part in evolution (for example, in the random mutations that can give rise to new traits), but evolution does not depend on chance to create organisms, proteins or other entities. Quite the opposite: natural selection, the principal known mechanism of evolution, harnesses nonrandom change by preserving “desirable” (adaptive) features and eliminating “undesirable” (nonadaptive) ones. As long as the forces of selection stay constant, natural selection can push evolution in one direction and produce sophisticated structures in surprisingly short times.
    As an analogy, consider the 13-letter sequence “TOBEORNOTTOBE.” Those hypothetical million monkeys, each pecking out one phrase a second, could take as long as 78,800 years to find it among the 2613 sequences of that length. But in the 1980s Richard Hardison of Glendale College wrote a computer program that generated phrases randomly while preserving the positions of individual letters that happened to be correctly placed (in effect, selecting for phrases more like Hamlet’s). On average, the program re-created the phrase in just 336 iterations, less than 90 seconds. Even more amazing, it could reconstruct Shakespeare’s entire play in just four and a half days.

    “The Second Law of Thermodynamics says that systems must become more disordered over time. Living cells therefore could not have evolved from inanimate chemicals, and multicellular life could not have evolved from protozoa.”??

    This argument derives from a misunderstanding of the Second Law. If it were valid, mineral crystals and snowflakes would also be impossible, because they, too, are complex structures that form spontaneously from disordered parts.
    The Second Law actually states that the total entropy of a closed system (one that no energy or matter leaves or enters) cannot decrease. Entropy is a physical concept often casually described as disorder, but it differs significantly from the conversational use of the word.
    More important, however, the Second Law permits parts of a system to decrease in entropy as long as other parts experience an offsetting increase. Thus, our planet as a whole can grow more complex because the sun pours heat and light onto it, and the greater entropy associated with the sun’s nuclear fusion more than rebalances the scales. Simple organisms can fuel their rise toward complexity by consuming other forms of life and nonliving materials.

    Evolutionary biologists have written extensively about how natural selection could produce new species. For instance, in the model called allopatry, developed by Ernst Mayr of Harvard University, if a population of organisms were isolated from the rest of its species by geographical boundaries, it might be subjected to different selective pressures. Changes would accumulate in the isolated population. If those changes became so significant that the splinter group could not or routinely would not breed with the original stock, then the splinter group would be reproductively isolated and on its way toward becoming a new species.
    Natural selection is the best studied of the evolutionary mechanisms, but biologists are open to other possibilities as well. Biologists are constantly assessing the potential of unusual genetic mechanisms for causing speciation or for producing complex features in organisms. Lynn Margulis of the University of Massachusetts at Amherst and others have persuasively argued that some cellular organelles, such as the energy-generating mitochondria, evolved through the symbiotic merger of ancient organisms. Thus, science welcomes the possibility of evolution resulting from forces beyond natural selection. Yet those forces must be natural; they cannot be attributed to the actions of mysterious creative intelligences whose existence, in scientific terms, is unproved.

    More at:
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/15-answers-to-creationist/
    And:
    http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/index.htm

  • rationalobservations?

    Please stop asking such ignorant and simplistic questions regarding processes that took at least 4,000,000,000 years to complete to the current level of the evolution of life on Earth.

    Your questions (and more) are answered here:
    http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/index.htm
    And here:
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/15-answers-to-creationist/

  • rationalobservations?

    The third largest and fastest growing human cohort (non believers) share your frustration.

    Karl Popper wrote a theory in which “is true” is replaced with “corresponds to the facts”. The existence of any of the many thousands of undetected and undetectable gods, goddesses and god-men corresponds to similar endlessly recycled myths legends and lies but never empirical evidence supported facts.
    It’s a unremarkable coincidence that the religion of the nation in which any religionist is born is always the “real and true” one and all others are false.
    Fewer than 18% of Americans and fewer than 6% of Europeans (under 2% in the UK and Sweden) are currently active members of any cult, sect or business of religion according to the remaining religions own published attendance figures while the vast vast majority of the millennial generation shun all religion and ignore all phony gods, goddesses and god-men (including christian gods and god-men) and redundant churches litter our villages, towns and cities.
    To the non-indoctrinated and those of us who shrugged off indoctrination in favour of common sense, logic and evidence – nothing appears to distinguish one god, goddess or god-man/”messiah”., from any other of the many thousands of undetected and undetectable, entirely and exclusively hypothetical gods, goddesses and god-men/”messiahs.
    Christians are often baffled how atheists could deny the existence of their (originally Canaanite) god, “Jehovah/Yahweh” and their (Roman) god-man/”messiah” “Yeshu/Jesus”, but they shouldn’t be. Christians deny many tens of thousands of the same gods that atheists deny. Atheists just deny one more ridiculously unconvincing god and one more stereotypical and entirely mythical god-man (among many hundreds of thousands of extremely similar undetectable and imaginary gods, goddesses and god-men) than Christians.
    Many among the declining cohort of the religionists (of the free, secular democracies of the world) join those christians who fail to justify their enthrallment to their specific brand of religion by pointing out that the non-existence of any of the gods cannot be proved.
    Evidence of the nonexistence of the nonexistent is nonexistent because the nonexistent is nonexistent.
    However – If inability to prove the non-existence of deities is enough for christians and other religionists to believe in them.,they must be very busy worshiping Amun-Ra, Apollo/Zeus, Odin, Quetzalcoatl, Pratibhanapratisamvit, (Buddhist goddess of context analysis) and Acat, (Mayan god of tattoo artists) and Tsa’qamae, (North American god of salmon migration) – and many thousands of other undetectable hypothetical entities among which the ridiculous “Yahweh” and “Jesus” remain merely mythical and of which no one ever provides proof or reason of (or for) existence and therefore non-existence may be sensibly and rationally assumed by default – as the third largest and fastest growing cohort of humanity (the godless / non-religious) conclude.
    All the evidence appears to indicate that the “christian” religion was cobbled together in the 4th century from mainly “pagan” components and exclusively “pagan” feast days and festivals.
    The burden of proof and the onus of convincing the rest of us of the validity of the “proof” is always upon the religionists and the rest of the rapidly declining membership of fraudulent religions. All religionists, fail too rise to meet that challenge and therefore your myths, legends and human businesses of religion remain debunked in the minds of most young folk and a large and growing number of us older folk who saw through and rejected the bunkum at some time in our life.
    It’s very noticeable that no one can tell me (and the growing legion of the happy, peaceful and humanitarian godless) about (the originally Canaanite god) “Yahweh” and (Roman god-man) “Jesus” (or any of the many thousands of other mythical deities) through logic and actual authenticated historical and scientific evidence and without any reference to the confused and internally contradictory mythology within any of the many diverse and different versions of human authored bibles, papyri, manuscripts and texts that were written centuries after the time in which their tales are backdated and merely set.
    Atheists make no claims. Religionists claim a god and/or gods and/or a god-man/men exist. The onus remains upon them to justify, validate or excuse that apparently bizarre claim.
    Meanwhile; the rapidly growing rest of us simply find no compelling reason to believe in any of the gods or religions because they present nothing but myths, legends and lies and the fact that a declining cohort of mankind personally believe in magic, supernatural entities and the myths legends and lies in which such childish superstition exclusively resides – is unconvincing to those of us who have shrugged off that indoctrinated BS and the millennial generation who have mostly not been infected by that garbage.

  • winabi

    +Bones..actually the opposite. As physicist Paul Davies says “I thought, ‘life is weird.’ To a physicist it looks like a
    miracle. I asked myself, ‘What’s going on? How do these stupid atoms get
    together and do such clever things?’”. and “The difficulty in all this – and perhaps the only point of consensus
    among astrobiologists – is that we don’t know how groups of molecules,
    non-living matter, coalesce and combine to become living. What is the
    animating spark? Or, more prosaically, what is the minimum level of
    complexity for a living organism?” He is starting to sound like a creationist.

    Our increasing knowledge of the genome is frustrating every naturalistic explanation.

  • winabi

    +rationalobservations? you use snowflakes as an example of order arising out of disorder. However shape of snowflakes is due to the properties of their building blocks, the water molecules (H2O).
    These are bent and polar (i.e. with positively and negatively charged
    ends). When they come together in solid form, they tend to form the
    lowest-energy structure they can, which is crystals with hexagonal (six-fold) symmetry (Vardiman, L., Microscopic masterpieces: discovering design in snow crystals).

    BTW how much intelligence did Richard Hardison invest in his ‘random’ program? Information has never been found to arise without an intelligent source. The Hardison example confirms that.

  • mai

    Kindly watch this

    https://youtu.be/EA9BDhcYsqc

  • Why would any rational intelligent person want or need to watch this guy Naik. He is known to be a moron. His view of the world is totally impossible even in the 12th century.
    This is a joke , right?

  • Bones

    Yes it is the death knell……the genomes sequence confirm special relationism….including deactivated codes from ancestors.

    So now creationists have to make up something else…

  • Bones

    It’s called context…..Look it up some time.

  • Bones

    Oh someone’s bitter because their Jesus isn’t coming to do jihad against non-believers.

    The Church isn’t the Kingdom of God……it’s pretty f***ed if it is. It’s actually the kingdom of the Pharisees.

    It’s weird because the Church persecutes and mocks people daily….and it’s frustration is over it’s ongoing irrelevance.

    Good luck with your fight against the rest of the world…..

  • Doug Tozier

    He thinks he is telling something new to a seminary graduate and former preacher. HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!

  • rationalobservations?

    Your first paragraph confirms the entirely natural nature of nature.

    Your last paragraph includes no evidence of supernatural intelligence behind or within the entirely natural world and universe.

    Karl Popper wrote a theory in which “is true” is replaced with “corresponds to the facts”. The existence of any of the many thousands of undetected and undetectable gods, goddesses and god-men corresponds to similar endlessly recycled myths legends and lies but never empirical evidence supported facts.

    It’s a unremarkable coincidence that the religion of the nation in which any religionist is born is always the “real and true” one and all others are false.

    Fewer than 18% of Americans and fewer than 6% of Europeans (under 2% in the UK and Sweden) are currently active members of any cult, sect or business of religion according to the remaining religions own published attendance figures while the vast vast majority of the millennial generation shun all religion and ignore all phony gods, goddesses and god-men (including christian gods and god-men) and redundant churches litter our villages, towns and cities.

    To the non-indoctrinated and those of us who shrugged off indoctrination in favour of common sense, logic and evidence – nothing appears to distinguish one god, goddess or god-man/”messiah”., from any other of the many thousands of undetected and undetectable, entirely and exclusively hypothetical gods, goddesses and god-men/”messiahs.

    Christians are often baffled how atheists could deny the existence of their (originally Canaanite) god, “Jehovah/Yahweh” and their (Roman) god-man/”messiah” “Yeshu/Jesus”, but they shouldn’t be. Christians deny many tens of thousands of the same gods that atheists deny. Atheists just deny one more ridiculously unconvincing god and one more stereotypical and entirely mythical god-man (among many hundreds of thousands of extremely similar undetectable and imaginary gods, goddesses and god-men) than Christians.

    Many among the declining cohort of the religionists (of the free, secular democracies of the world) join those christians who fail to justify their enthrallment to their specific brand of religion by pointing out that the non-existence of any of the gods cannot be proved.
    Evidence of the nonexistence of the nonexistent is nonexistent because the nonexistent is nonexistent.
    However – If inability to prove the non-existence of deities is enough for christians and other religionists to believe in them.,they must be very busy worshiping Amun-Ra, Apollo/Zeus, Odin, Quetzalcoatl, Pratibhanapratisamvit, (Buddhist goddess of context analysis) and Acat, (Mayan god of tattoo artists) and Tsa’qamae, (North American god of salmon migration) – and many thousands of other undetectable hypothetical entities among which the ridiculous “Yahweh” and “Jesus” remain merely mythical and of which no one ever provides proof or reason of (or for) existence and therefore non-existence may be sensibly and rationally assumed by default – as the third largest and fastest growing cohort of humanity (the godless / non-religious) conclude.

    All the evidence appears to indicate that the “christian” religion was cobbled together in the 4th century from mainly “pagan” components and exclusively “pagan” feast days and festivals.

    The burden of proof and the onus of convincing the rest of us of the validity of the “proof” is always upon the religionists and the rest of the rapidly declining membership of fraudulent religions. All religionists, fail too rise to meet that challenge and therefore your myths, legends and human businesses of religion remain debunked in the minds of most young folk and a large and growing number of us older folk who saw through and rejected the bunkum at some time in our life.

    It’s very noticeable that no one can tell me (and the growing legion of the happy, peaceful and humanitarian godless) about (the originally Canaanite god) “Yahweh” and (Roman god-man) “Jesus” (or any of the many thousands of other mythical deities) through logic and actual authenticated historical and scientific evidence and without any reference to the confused and internally contradictory mythology within any of the many diverse and different versions of human authored bibles, papyri, manuscripts and texts that were written centuries after the time in which their tales are backdated and merely set.

    Atheism make no claims.
    Religionists claim a god and/or gods and/or a god-man/men exist. The onus remains upon them to justify, validate or excuse that apparently bizarre claim.

    Meanwhile; the rest of us in aver more rapidly growing numbers simply find no compelling reason to believe in any of the gods or religions because they present nothing but myths, legends and lies and the fact that a declining cohort of mankind personally believe in magic, supernatural entities and the myths legends and lies in which such childish superstition exclusively resides – is unconvincing to those of us who have shrugged off that indoctrinated BS and the millennial generation who have mostly not been infected by that garbage.

  • John

    About #1; yes, sure, they love Jesus, but their Jesus is a very different Jesus. Their Jesus is not the one revealed in the Bible. Their Jesus is not God. Their Jesus did not come to give salvation to the world. Etc.

    So, sure, they believing in “Jesus,” but the similarity is only important if you ignore the parts that actually matter.

    With that said, I agree, lots of people are incredibly ignorant of Islam, though I would say that you are also showing ignorance when you say that Islam provides no context for committing suicide attacks and terrorism, especially within the hadith. The problem with Islamic studies is that much of it is incredibly vague and contradictory (hence the need for the doctrine of abrogation). So you have one group that picks certain ayas and/or hadith and other groups that pick other ayas and/or hadith. Both can have good verses to back them up.

    In my opinion, we need to make the distinction between the two groups. We can’t treat them as if they’re all the same dangerous form of Islam because they aren’t, but we also can’t say that those who practice extremist Islam aren’t Muslims. Remember, Muhammad, the most perfect man to ever live in Islamic theology, was a warlord who spread Islam through conquest.

  • John

    FYI, Sunni Muslims, of which the large majority of Muslims belong, also hold the Hadith as authoritative. By only looking at the Quran, you are leaving out an absolutely massive part of Islamic doctrine.

  • Ramis Wells

    I didn’t ask you repeat the hadith, I asked you to explain why your prophet said that.

  • Ramis Wells

    What you don’t seem to understand is that just because the majority of muslims don’t do certain things it doesn’t mean that the ideology of islam doesn’t teach it.

    The qur’an calls Jews pigs and apes (sura 5:60) which is why you have muslims around the world calling jews apes and pigs. And nothing happens to those muslims.

    People that call the muslims pigs are fed up with muslims continuing to commit violence to spread terror.

  • Ramis Wells

    If you ask Palestinians who their god is they will say it’s allah. According to their qur’an the land was already given to the Jews (sura 5:21) so according to their god, the land belongs to the jews.

    And by the way, the Jews have been giving land to the palestinians and the palestinians still try to kill jews.

  • Ramis Wells

    With all due respect to you, you clearly don’t understand islamic theology. The qur’an is supposed to be literal word of god. And the qur’an makes the claim that it is a book that makes things clear (sura 26:2, sura 27:1) yet the qur’an was not even an actual book until after the death of muhammad. Now tell me, what is the context of those verses seeing as the qur’an wasn’t a book during the time muhammad lived?

    Verses that command people to be killed in the qur’an are open ended. They were not meant to be locked in time. If that were the case then every single religious ancient text would be locked in time and the teachings would be void and meaningless in the future.

  • Ramis Wells

    Alright. So since you understand the qur’an better than I do, can you give me the tafsir of sura 16:15?

    If I’m making up the verses, then how do they wind up in the qur’an?

    So are you saying that muslims are islamic doctrine?

  • Ramis Wells

    So you have a problem with hatred do you? Then that means you would have a problem with those that spread hate is that correct?

    Getting to know individual muslims will not solve the problem of what islamic theology teaches muslims.

  • Ramis Wells

    Like I’ve said before Muhammad Ibn Abd Al Wahhab simply went back to the original tecahings of muhammad. That’s all. The problem is not Wahhabism, it’s muhammadism.

    At least Trump is trying to warn people about the threat that islam poses. He doesn’t yet understand enough about islamic theology but he knows enough to know whom the perpetrators of the atrocities are and he’s trying to keep his nation safe. Unlike liberals that have no knowledge of what islam teaches but they want to tell society what islam really is.

  • Ramis Wells

    Let’s say for the sake of discussion that I agree with your statement. The issue that we’re discussing is islam. Islam has nothing to do with the Bible. And according to the qur’an the god of islam is the one that sent the Bible (sura 3:3) so if there are contradictions in the Bible, then that would mean that the god of the qur’an can’t be all knowing which means that they aren’t God.

  • Ramis Wells

    Question: Why are the palestinian christians being persecuted by Hamas?

    https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/9634/palestinian-christians

  • Bones

    Hamas was supported by Israel to weaken the PLO in their civil war with fatah.

    Like most western governments they have used Islamic extremists for their own ends against peaceful and moderate Muslims.

  • Bones

    The God of the Bible and the Quran are one and the same.

    God neither spoke to Moses, the Apostles nor Mohammad.

    Whether it exists beyond the minds of humans is debatable.

  • Bones

    Wahabbism exists in the same way the puritans butchered Christianity and made it into their own image.

    “Ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhab’s teachings were criticized by a number of Islamic scholars during his life for disregarding Islamic history, monuments, traditions and the sanctity of Muslim life.[65] One scholar named Ibn Muhammad compared Ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhab with Musaylimah the liar alayhi la’na.[66] He also accused Ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhab of wrongly declaring the Muslims to be infidels based on a misguided reading of Qur’anic passages and Prophetic traditions[66] and of wrongly declaring all scholars as infidels who did not agree with his “deviant innovation”.[66]

    The traditional Hanbali scholar Ibn Fayruz al-Tamimi (d. 1801/1802) publicly repudiated Ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhab’s teachings when he sent an envoy to him and referred to the Wahhabis as the “seditious Kharijites” of Najd.[67] In response, the Wahhabis considered Ibn Fayruz an idolater (mushrik) and one of their worst enemies.[67]

    According to the historian Ibn Humayd, Ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhab’s father criticized his son for his unwillingness to specialize in jurisprudence and disagreed with his doctrine and declared that he would be the cause of wickedness.[68] Similarly his own brother, Suleyman ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhab wrote one of the first treatises’ refuting Wahhabi doctrine[68] claiming he was ill-educated and intolerant, and classing Ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhab’s views as fringe and fanatical.[65]

    The Shafi’i mufti of Mecca, Ahmed ibn Zayni Dehlan, wrote an anti-Wahhabi treatise, the bulk of which consists of arguments and proof from the sunna to uphold the validity of practices the Wahhabis considered idolatrous: Visiting the tombs of Muhammad, seeking the intercession of saints, venerating Muhammad and obtaining the blessings of saints.[69] He also accused Ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhab of not adhering to the Hanbali school and that he was deficient in learning.[69]”

    It’s quite bizarre that you support trump giving extremist Muslims 100s of billions of dollars in weapons.

    It shows you know shit about anything.

  • Bones

    You and Islamic extremists are of the same cloth – liars who prey on people’s fears and anger.

    You know nothing about what Islam teaches.

  • Bones

    That post didn’t even make sense……

    Now you’re just becoming incoherent.

    Wtf should I be interested in Sura 16:15

    “And he has placed firm mountains on earth, lest it sway with you, 11 and rivers and paths, so that you might find your way,”

  • Bones

    Lol….with all due respect it’s clear you don’t understand Islamic theology.

    You’ve already been schooled by the only Muslim to visit the site.

    Wtf are you talking to me as if I am a Muslim?

    The Quran is no more inspired than the Bible.

    At issue is you and your dishonest use of it.

  • Bones

    Lol….according to Palestinians the land does NOT belong to the Jews.

    And that goes for Palestinian Christians as well.

    What an abject liar you are.

  • Bones

    Lol…..this is the No True Scotsman fallacy……..

    Actually we have people like you here who call Muslims pigs.

    Nothing ever happens to them either.

  • Bones

    Yes, there appears to be a reason why no one posts there…..

  • mai

    Prophet muhammad said that bcz Allah bestowed on him these blessings. Pharoah didnt fear moses, goliath didnt fear david, the jews didnt fear jesus. Peace upon all the prophets.
    But , allah instilled the fear in prophet muhammad enemies before they even met him in the battle. If you are to meet your enemies in the battle , would you prefer God to throw fear or tickling spells in thier hearts. Sometimes this fear alone can make you victorious.

  • mai

    ” HE IS KNOWN TO…”
    that proves you only repeat what other people think.
    Think for yourself

  • mai
  • Islam is a violent religion. Its writings, teachings and culture are rife with perversity, misogyny and hatred toward unbelievers. It celebrates death and violence. Many Muslims live peaceful lives, but all that proves is that, as in any religion, most members shy away from radical commitment. I’ve posted a sampling of Quranic violence below. All I can say is that there are plenty of people/causes who deserve defending in this world; Islam is not one of them.

    SURAH 2:216
    “Fighting is obligatory for you, as much as you dislike it.”

    SURAH 2:217
    “Idolatry is more grievous than bloodshed.”

    SURAH 3:12
    “Say to the unbelievers: ‘You shall be overthrown and driven into Hell – an evil resting place.'”

    SURAH 3:15
    “We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers.”

    SURAH 3:158-159
    “If you should die or be slain in the cause of Allah, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches they amass.” (see also verse 195)

    SURAH 4:3
    This says that men are permitted slave girls and up to four wives at one time.

    SURAH 4:11
    “A male shall inherit twice as much as a female.”

    SURAH 4:34
    “Men have authority over women because Allah has made one superior to the other.”
    It also says that disobedient wives should be beaten and sent to bed.

    SURAH 4:74-83
    These verses calls for fighting against “infidels”.

    SURAH 5:17
    “Unbelievers are those who declare: ‘God is the Messiah, the Son of Mary.’ (see also 5:72-73)

    SURAH 5:43
    Jews are identified as not true believers.

    SURAH 5:51
    “Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians as your friends. They are friends with one another.”

    SURAH 5:57
    “Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels and those who were given the Book before you” (i.e. the Jews and the Christians).

    SURAH 5:60
    The most unholy Qur’an here claims that their “allah” thingy has transformed some Jews and Christians into apes and pigs.

    SURAH 8:7
    “rout the unbelievers”

    SURAH 8:12-13
    These two verses calls for the beheading of infidels/unbelievers and the cutting off of their finger tips if they resist Muhammad and this allah thingy.

    SURAH 8:39
    “Make war on them (i.e. the unbelievers) until idolatry shall cease and Allah’s religion shall reign supreme.”

    SURAH 8:59-60
    These verses orders Muslims to pursue “unbelievers” and to strike terror in them.

    SURAH 9:5
    “Slay the idolaters wherever you find them.”

    SURAH 9:12 & 14
    “make war on the leaders of unbelief”
    “make war on them”

    SURAH 9:29
    “Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given…”

    SURAH 9:39
    “If you don’t go to war, He (i.e. this allah thingy) will punish you sternly.”

    SURAH 9:73
    “Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them.”

    SURAH 9:123
    “Believers, make war on the infidels (i.e. “unbelievers”) who dwell around you.”
    There’s more.
    The most unholy Qur’an defines “unbelievers” and “idolaters” this way:

    SURAH 5:17 & 72 “Unbelievers (i.e. idolaters & infidels) are those who say: ‘God is the Messiah, the Son of Mary.”

    SURAH 5:73 “Unbelievers are those who say: God is one of three”

    LYING IS CONDONED AND PRACTICED IN ISLAM – IT IS CALLED TAQIYYA.
    See Surah 3:28 and 16:106 and 40:28
    Abu Darda, one of Muhammad’s companions, said, “We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.”

    Al-Hasan, one of Muhammad’s companions, said, “Taqiyya is allowed until the Day of Resurrection.”

    Muslim scholar Ibn Kathir, commenting on the doctrine of al taqiyya in Surah 3:28 said, In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship outwardly but never inwardly.”

    THE MUSLIM PARADISE IS FULL OF A SMORGASBORD OF FOOD, GINGER-FLAVORED WATER, DARK-EYED NYMPHOMANIACS CALLED “HOURIS” AND LITTLE BOYS!!!
    See:
    Surah 37:48
    Surah 44:52
    Surah 52:13-20
    Surah 52:22-24
    Surah 55:32
    Surah 56:17-20
    Surah 56:20 & 28

  • @Beth Taylor You are correct that we must treat Muslims as well as we treat everyone else. How we deal with Muslims as individuals is completely separate from our stance towards the Islamic world as a whole. You stated that “the vast majority of Muslims condemn suicide bombings and terrorist attacks.” False. The Pew Research Center mounted a study (link below) to determine how the average Middle-Eastern Muslim feels about religious violence. It conducted polls in Egypt, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nigeria, Iran, Turkey, Afghanistan and several other countries in the region. The respondents were asked whether suicide bombings were ever justified. The percentage of people from these countries who said “yes” were 29%, 13%, 26% 22% 47%, 15%, and 39%, respectively. Even in the United States, eight percent of Muslims responded that it is sometimes okay to strap on a vest packed with explosives and blow up a few score of innocent people to make your point. This is what we’re dealing with. http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/nov/05/ben-shapiro/shapiro-says-majority-muslims-are-radicals/

  • Anecdotal evidence proves nothing. Of course there are going to be negative stories. This conflict has been going on for decades. Look into it and you’ll find that Israel has lots of positive stories to tell as well. When Israel has to strike an area with a civilian population, they drop leaflets warning about the coming airstrike so civilians can get out of the way first. This is markedly different from Hamas, which fires rockets across the border and then hides in schools and hospitals to avoid the retaliation. Israel is far from perfect, but the world needs to stop insisting that it not be allowed to defend itself.

  • “The God of the Bible and the Quran are one and the same.” Wrong. The God of the Bible is three distinct persons (Trinity), whereas Allah is a single person. This is just one of many contradictions between the Bible and the Quran. If God and Allah were one, he would be a very schizophrenic Deity indeed.

  • Bones

    They are the same that’s why ISIS behaviour is very much like Moses’s.

    My point of course being they are both based on bs.

    BTW Christian Arabs call god Allah.

  • Bones

    I’ll tell my Palestinian friend who was forced out of his house at gunpoint by the idf and given to settlers that you support actions like this because you love Israel. He”s now the Anglican priest at Ramallah.

    When Palestinians defend themselves it’s called terrorism.

    Your hatred of Muslims just leads you to supporting all sorts of evil shit.

  • IconoclastTwo

    “The 2.9 billion base pairs of the haploid human genome correspond to a maximum of about 725 megabytes of data. It is impossible for so much coded data to randomly come together in DNA in a orderly coded (developed by random probabilities) fashion, the control systems (switching protein factories on and off), patron proteins, protein folding, protein factories in a living cell are amazing technological marvels. This all happened by itself?”

    It took me a while to get back to this but it was definitely on my personal to-do list to respond to this:

    Your argument on this point is very bad for several reasons:

    1) It didn’t come together randomly. It came together as a consequence of natural selection-namely that there were multiple criteria that the environment/competition applied with the additional limitation that certain systems are so basic, so fundamental (like the basic biochemistry of respiration for aerobic organisms, or the fundamental machinery of protein assembly) that certain elements would be conserved. I also think your assumption assumes that the coding system for this is incapable of elaboration.

    2) Your argument also assumes that there weren’t less complicated evolutionary progenitors but there were a lot of them (in fact, most species numerically). Those 2.9 billion base pairs didn’t arise from nothing. They arose in the context of a system in which both the coding and noncoding regions of the DNA developed through elaborations/adaptations/retaskings of previous systems in order to produce different and novel functions. This has been traced often enough to provide massive support for evolution as a theory.

    Moving on…

    “Evolution teaching that living systems improve over time?”

    3) This is a mischaracterization. Evolution doesn’t teach that living systems improve over time. It teaches instead that they *can* if there’s selective pressure for it but it doesn’t guarantee that a system is going to improve even if from our perspective it’s clearly suboptimal. There are a lot of such systems in human biochemistry. Improvement also depends on circumstance-ie, flightless birds and insects are well adapted for islands but in circumstances where they have to deal with fast, introduced predators (like cats) they’re frequently defenseless and end up endangered.

    “The second law of thermodynamics is a parallel natural law indicating ever increasing entropy and chaos, not the other way around.”

    4) Except that biochemical systems (ie cells), need constant influxes of energy in order to prevent this or to build this complexity. There’s also that the chemical reactions involved in cells do produce waste products such as heat, water, and carbon dioxide and as such they’re still thermodynamically allowed.

  • Fred Farrokh
  • Ramis Wells

    Answer my question. Why are the palestinian christians being persecuted by Hamas?

  • Ramis Wells

    Not as stupid as you muslim sympathizers. According to islamic theology the torah is one Book that was “sent” to Moses. It wasn’t something that was written down. I guess you would know that if you weren’t idiot.

  • Ramis Wells

    Seeing as I read the ACTUAL muslim sources and you don’t I know that the one at war was muhammad against anyone that did not believe as he said. Once he increased in man power he began increasing his assaults on people that did not follow him or insulted him.

    Jizya meant that muslims would “protect” christians by insulting them and degrading them to less than second class status. But I guess you only read islamic fiction sites that tell you that christians living under islamic rule were in a utopian society.

  • Ramis Wells

    Then I guess that means that muhammad was an idiot that didn’t know what taqiyya meant since it was intended to be used to save lives like you claim. Islamic scholars like you really are geniuses, only…not.

  • Ramis Wells

    I guess not seeing as I’ve been posting verses from the qur’an in english.

  • Ramis Wells

    So christians by doctrine have been financing terrorism? Who are they?

  • Matthew

    I have heard and read that in southern Spain (al-andalus) between the 700´s and 1400´s Muslim rule there was very tolerant and enlightening. Apparently while Europe was going through its dark age, these Muslims (Moors) were enjoying a time of great intellectual renewal.

    A quick Google search, though, reveals that this too might be a myth of history.

  • Ramis Wells

    Since we’re talking about muslims why don’t you speak about the arab slave trade, the armenian genocide? The fact the first crusade was a RESPONSE to muslim occupation of Jerusalem?, throwing gays off from rooftops?, 9/11?, The Boston Marathon Bombing, The attacks that took place during ramadan this year?, The burning of the library of Alexandria? The destruction of the scrolls of the Nalanda Monastic University? The Nairobi Mall Shooting?, The Fort Hood shooting?, The San Bernadino shooting?, The killing of Lee Rigby? The Charlie Hebdo murders?, The Orlando Nightclub shooting?, The Time Square bomber?, The abducted school girls in Nigeria?, The destruction of the library in Mosul? The Manchester England bombing?, The 7/7 Bombings?, The Nice France, truck killings?, Women having acid thrown in their faces? And the list is still going on right now.

  • Ramis Wells

    And your comments shows your rhetoric to be hypocritical.

  • Ramis Wells

    In the voice of Donald Rumsfeld.

  • Ramis Wells

    It’s funny (i.e. hypocritical) how you see christian history as bad but not islamic history and the fact that muslims are still acting the way that muhammad acted and you don’t condemn it shows me that either want to live under islamic rule or you’re an ignorant muslim or both.

  • Ramis Wells

    I said SHOW ME!

  • Ramis Wells

    Um…no you didn’t. Because…sura 4:150-151, sura 98:6 (there are dozens more that I can quote from the qur’an).

    What jihad means to muslims has nothing to do with what jihad ACTUALLY IS and how allah intends for muslims to use jihad.

    Your ignorance about islamic theology is hilarious to me. I hope you write a book about your islamic scholastic knowledge, and get it published. It would serve as a good laugh among intellectuals.

  • Ramis Wells

    The context of love your enemies is loving your enemies. Anyone with a non deficient brain knows that. Too bad you don’t :-(

  • Ramis Wells

    That just proves that pure islam (i.e. the islam that muhammad taught) is the problem. If you had a functioning frontal lobe you would understand that.

  • Ramis Wells

    In Bosnia where hundreds of bosnian jihadis went to fight in Afghanistan? Or the Albanian muslims that plotted to attack Fort Dix? You mean that Bosnia and Albania?

  • Ramis Wells

    It’s funny that the verses that I pull from my arse were already in the qur’an. I guess that means that the qur’an is a piece of sh*t, according to you.

  • Ramis Wells

    The sad thing is that people like Bones are the ones spewing hatred and no one calls them out for it, except people like us I guess.

  • Ramis Wells

    Actually I’m quite knowledgeable about my Bible. If you read the old testament God gives SPECIFIC orders to be carried out by SPECIFIC people (i.e. the jews). The main reason for the genocide that takes place in the old testament is because many groups of people either attacked, enslaved or led astray the children of Israel and because of this God’s judgment fell on specific groups of people. If you notice in the new testament Jesus comes into humanity giving people commands on how to live that were completely different from what had previously been established, including the verse that I aforementioned (Matthew 22:37-40). Jesus said that love is the greatest commandment and if you love your neighbor, you will not kill them. Christians after Jesus’ ascension, had not resorted to killings for a long time. If I’m wrong as you claim then why wasn’t there more killings as there had been in the Old Testament?
    It seems to me that you have a problem with the fact that God ordered killings in the Old Testament and I can understand why it would be a problem but the God that commanded such killing is not a liar nor a mass murderer. If God exists, then God would have to be the standard of objective justice and disobedience would be a violation the authority of God hence, God would have the authority to issue judgement against all parties involved in the disobedience so that justice will prevail.

  • Ramis Wells

    You mean the people that wanted to take things back to the pure islam that muhammad taught?

  • Ramis Wells

    Typical coward: you make a claim and then can’t support it with evidence.

    And you can stop wasting your time using projective identification. Clearly, you’re the dishonest liar here. But at least your lying is a result of your ignorance of islamic theology.

  • Ramis Wells

    What the majority of the adherents of a belief system think is irrelevant to what the belief system teaches. And it’s people like you calling christians all kinds of names and nothing happens to you because there is no call to violence against those that insult christians or Jesus. Jesus said whoever speaks a word him will be forgiven (Matthew 12:32). He even forgave those that crucified him (Luke 23:34). muhammad on the other hand had people killed for satirizing him. There was very little forgiveness in muhammad’s heart after he had amassed a large enough number of warrior muslims.

  • Ramis Wells

    I’ve never lied about one thing that I’ve posted on this page. You on the other hand…

  • Ramis Wells

    So you’re telling me that a God that calls Jesus his begotten Son (Matthew 3:16-17, John 3:16) is the same god that says he did not beget a son (sura 19:92)?

    The fact that you think that God didn’t speak to anyone reveals your lack of knowledge of the beliefs of Jews and Christians and Muslims.

  • Ramis Wells

    That proves that islam as muhammad taught it was the original problem.

  • Ramis Wells

    Obviously, I know exactly what islam teaches if islamic extremists are of the same cloth as you claim.

  • Ramis Wells

    Because according to that verse, mountains prevent earthquakes. But we have been having earthquakes since the before the qur’an was revealed and we still are having earthquakes now. But since you know the qur’an better than me I guess you already knew about that. Oh wait…

  • Ramis Wells

    With all due respect again, it’s you that doesn’t understand islamic theology. The reason that I speak to you as a muslim is because your defending the qur’an and islamic theology just like a muslim: ignorantly. Even when the suras, hadith and literature about the life of muhammad are quoted to you, you still think the issue is about muslims as people. It really doesn’t get much more ignorant than a person that can’t distinguish between ideology and people such as you are.

  • Ramis Wells

    According to the god of the palestinians the land belongs to the Jews. What an ignorant person you are to think that mankind is theologically superior to the god of the religion.

  • Ramis Wells

    You’re the one using the no true scotsman argument. I’m not the one that’s confusing what the majority of muslims do to the doctrine that teaches them how to behave.

  • Ramis Wells

    None of that has anything to do with the fact that muhammad called himself a terrorist and muhammad is allegedly the example for muslims to follow (sura 33:21). So it’s no wonder that the muslims that follow muhammad are terrorists.

  • Ramis Wells

    The reason that europe was in the dark ages is because the muslims had cut off trade to countries like Egypt where papyrus was used to make paper. Without paper, there there were less books printed and less books meant less people reading and the books that were available that were un-islamic were often destroyed.

  • Doug Tozier

    Well, there are 2 disingenuous things about your reply. First, it would be immoral for a god to have one system of justice (right and wrong) for one people/era and another for a different era. It is just plain bad. If slavery is okay for Jews, then it cannot be disallowed for the rest of us. Second, I see no condemnation of the atrocities of the OT, and Jesus specifically says on more than one occasion that the law was in full effect in his dispensation. Paul never disallows slavery; Peter never does; James never does.

    It would have been very simple for Almighty God to clarify his feelings regarding this and many other immoral situations, but he does not. This makes god either immoral or impossible. This god would only have the authority to say what is right if he was a consistent standard from the first law he laid down to Adam until the Apocalypse.

    There are so many other examples I could give, and hundreds, if not thousands, of people have done so. Your argument falls flat. Nice try.

  • mai

    Quran 33:21
    ” indeed in the messenger of Allah you have a good example to follow for him who hopes for the meeting with Allah and the last day, and remembers Allah much”
    This is the verse you threw. I answered every claim of yours, do you not understand?
    Or do you not want to understand.?
    You are saying those people in the photos, are the followers of the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him? https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7015f871105be2c7ef01fa7ad91deec941884747b3917f61f20127092d36306d.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e2235524a85506494df2b3c86d77cafa90f2847df36460f98526d84e8329c176.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/fd799425bc3bd650d20d4e33c85692975e5657359838ba512cb2089365484974.jpg

  • Bones

    No…you use the no true Muslim fallacy…unless they follow your incredibly flawed and errant definitions they aren’t a true Muslim.

    You obviously have no shame to be still posting as an expert on Islam when you’ve been proven to be a sham and a liar.

  • Bones

    No……

    According to the palestinians, god isn’t a racist.

    Yours is.

  • Bones

    It’s quite clear by your lies all through this thread that you don’t understaunderstand Islam at all.

    In fact you are an Israeli apologist.

  • Bones

    No.

    It is clear that wahabbists do not represent majority of Islam.

    They have been given great power by their western allies to promote their brand of poison.

    Well done.

  • Bones

    Who cares.

    They’re both wrong.

    The god of mohammad is the same god of moses.

  • Bones

    You’re lies are all over this page.

    and now you lie about Palestinians in your support of Jewish occupation of their land.

  • Bones

    Yes it is relevant.

    Because they know their religion and it’s context unlike some dumbarse Israeli apologist in the Internet.

  • Bones

    You are a coward and a liar.

    Neither do you have an ounce of shame.

  • Bones

    The ones who misunderstood it like the Christian puritans who most Christians condemn

    Nah f### off.

    I suppose you’ve never heard of sufism.

  • Bones

    Anyone can pull out a verse out of their arse.

    Eg numbers 31

    17 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. 18 But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.

  • Bones

    You mean the Albania which was the only european country whose Jewish population grew in ww2.

    AND yes Bosnia is a secular country.

    You are a hateful merkin.

  • Bones

    Except it isn’t which is evident by Muslim counties’ hatred of the house of saud.

    You are clearly deluded in your hate.

  • Bones

    That’s in Islam.

    Your hatred has blinded you.

  • Bones

    It’s all over here…everything from jihad, to taqiyyah, to taking verses out of context and blind support of israel.

    You are the ultimate anti-Muslim pro-Israeli troll.

  • Ramis Wells

    There’s nothing disingenuous about what I’ve said. You’re telling me that you know better about how God operates than God does. Alright. God chose a particular group of people (jews) and gave them instructions on how to live and how to obey him. And through the jews came salvation unto all mankind. As the jews became a nation, they encountered many hostile nations, and they rebelled against God which drew God’s judgment against the jews for rebellion and against the nations for mistreating jews. God is just and always has been which is why God forgives but also punishes. Why would there be a need for condemnation of slavery if the new christians obeyed what Jesus had taught them? If you loved your neighbor as yourself you would not enslave them and if you were a slave owner and you did unto others as you would have them do unto do, you would free your slaves. When Paul speaks about slaves obeying their masters that doesn’t mean that he condoned slavery but he was telling them to be obedient because obedience is the essence of serving God (1 Samuel 15:22). A command was also given to the masters of the servants (Ephesians 6:9) letting them know that they themselves have a master in heaven so they are to do right by their servants. What is your basis for calling the violence in the OT atrocities if you are not the standard of justice or righteousness? And what is your basis for calling God immoral if you are not the objective source of goodness?

  • Doug Tozier

    IF a god exists, and I am not convinced based on anything you have said, then he is only as moral as every society that has ever existed agrees about what is moral and what is not. You can twist and spin my words all you want, but it doesn’t change what the Bible (and dozens of other holy books) says that your god approves. I don’t have to be the standard because I am just one person; we all choose what level of morality we will accept based on our belief system. I can have a belief system that is evidence-based, or one that is faith-based. But then the question isn’t whether you have faith, it is whether you are 100% loyal to the model you have chosen. If you claim the Bible to be your moral guide, then to be honest, you must accept the standard given in it. If it endorses something without ever condemning it, and most civilized societies condemn it, then you ought to own up to your choice, rather than try to weasel your way out of your own choice. I asked you if god ever CLARIFIED his feelings about slavery; you provided no such clarification. Try telling the police officer who tickets you for speeding how much you abhor people who drive too fast… I’m sure he will listen and let you off the hook. If your god intended to nullify his past acceptance of slavery (an immoral position in and of itself), he forget to spell it out. The very a least a god worthy of attention would do is make his message clear. He didn’t. That makes him a deceiver and a monster. No thanks. I’ll stick with reason and logic… otherwise known as reality.

  • Ramis Wells

    First, every society does not agree with what is moral and what is not. Many people in the US think that homosexuality is immoral but clearly those that are homosexual do not agree that homosexuality is immoral. So there is no unanimous consensus of societal morality. Second, if I were speeding and a cop gives me a ticket that would be fair because I broke the law of the road. If I just got a warning but no ticket the officer would be unjust by not giving me a ticket even though it was to my benefit not to receive a ticket. Third, I don’t need to twist words. I’m using reason, in this case I’m utilizing your reasoning. According to you because God did not denounce slavery in particular he is immoral. So how do you come to the conclusion that slavery is immoral using only reason and logic since that’s what you want to stick with? If you’ve read any of my responses you’ll see that I don’t weasel out of anything. I’ve read the Bible and I understand how slavery came about and why God allowed it. You on the other hand assert yourself to a position of moral superiority over God even to the point of denying his existence simply because he does not conform to your level subjective morality. If the existence of God were predicated on the notion of him serving us according to our will and understanding then he couldn’t be God by definition. Yet on your view, if he doesn’t act according to your values system he doesn’t exist. By the way, God’s nature never changes so he has spelled out his nature which is to issue retribution in response to a violation which is what justice is. Slavery was a method of retribution against the people that violated his law or people.

  • Pakistani

    Mushtaq Ahmad, your name sounds Arabic/Muslim, but you know nothing about Muslims and Islam. You are nothing different from the ignorant Christians and other non-Muslims. For me, it will be completely futile to rebut point by point what nonsense you have said above. I only pray, may Allah give you hidayat, which you need most.

  • Pakistani

    @douglasabbott:disqus, You have taken a lot of pain in finding your desired inscriptions, copying and pasting the same here with that pain. But it will be better, if you take some little pain to really understand the Muslims and Islam, that will be very fine and very beneficial for all of the mankind, really. Actually you know what, Islam came after about 600 years after coming of Christianity. So, when Islam emerged, the Christian world became antagonistic and antipathetic to its founder as being heretic and so on and so forth. The Christian clergy of that time started smearing campaign against the new religion and its founder. The same thing is going on in Christian minds with full gusto and enthusiasm. But, I will humbly request you, don’t smear 1.6 billion Muslims and their strongly dedicated and logical and enlightened belief. Even after this effort, you don’t find anything refreshing and rejuvenating, then I, and we shall just forget you.

  • Pakistani

    @richardwordenwilson:disqus , our view is, the present day “stateless actors” are creation of you people and Indians, to victimise and subjugate Muslim countries and Muslims. If you could really take out some quality time and read the doctrine of Islamic warfare, you will see, the beheading, the innocent killing, the sexual misuse of captive women, and all these, have no place in Islam. But they are doing and showing to whole world, much delight to you people, who are basically behind these things. It has now proven that India is training, financing and assisting these heinous elements besides your governments.

    Very shortly, the Islamic doctrine of warfare is:

    a) Don’t harm women, children and aged, feeble people;
    b) Don’t destroy green, fruit bearing trees;
    c) Don’t destroy standing crops

    In the first war of Islam, known as “Badar war”, Muslims captured many enemies alive, who were more educated than the Muslims. There were deliberations whether to execute them or set them free on ransom. Prophet Muhammad (Sm) decided to set them free against ransom; and the ransom was that every captured enemy would teach at least ten Muslims to read and write.

  • Bones

    Mushtaq Ahmad was a very good Pakistani leg spinner. This clown knows nothing about Islam.

    Seems to be a right wing trait.

  • Bones

    According to the sanctified muse, you are out to kill him.

  • Bones

    Actually the Spanish asked the Muslims to help kick out a tyrannical Christian king.

    Beware of your mate. He’s a liar.

  • Bones

    Complete bunkum.

    You can’t even lie straight in bed.

  • Bones

    Yeah that’s me too….

    Dickhead.

  • Bones

    No different then to a god who pronounces menstruating women unclean.

  • Ramis Wells

    I wasn’t talking about things like the black plague. I was speaking about the intellectual decline of europe during the time of islamic expansion during that time.

  • Doug Tozier

    I am going to only respond to 2 points in your comment, because you seem to be better at bullshit than facts.

    1. I never said consensus, I was talking about agreement on the basics of what is moral behavior. I think every society has frowned on murder… long before Moses told the Israelites not to do it. (BTW: you totally missed the point of the speeding ticket example).

    2. Since you have think you have read the Bible and understand the issue of slavery (which modern societies mostly have declared to be immoral), then may I point you to Exodus 21 and Leviticus 25?

    Once again you have accused me of claiming to be the standard of morality, even though I have denied that claim and explained the difference to you. Your lack of comprehension, while disturbing, is understandable based on your warped belief system. I doubt I can retain my sanity if I continue butting my head against your wall.

  • Dolores Spurlock

    Here we go again!! Number one- you keep labeling Christians as haters of muslims!!! Do you know every Christian? Your labeling us Christians the same way as you accusing us of labeling Muslims. Doesn’t matter what faith religion or non believer there are good and bad people in humanity!!! So stop saying Christians don’t understand muslims. Next time you want to critize a Christian go out to a church and meet some!ll

  • Fred L Anthony

    Much like many of today’s Christian zealots are trying to do today

  • Fred L Anthony

    you forgot the almost total extermination of Druids and Witches and Pagans from many European countries

  • Fred L Anthony

    cherry picking is not exactly true quotes since the cherry picked verse is usually used out of context with ts surrounding verses

  • Fred L Anthony

    he doctrine of taqiyya was developed at the time of Ja’far al-Sadiq (d. 148 AH/765 AD), the sixth Imamiya Imam. It served to protect Shias when Al-Mansur, the Abbasid caliph, conducted a brutal and oppressive campaign against Alids and their supporters. Islam began in the early-7th century. Originating in Mecca, it quickly spread in the Arabian peninsula and by the 8th century the Islamic empire was extended from Iberia in the west to the Indus river in the east. so Islam was created before 650 AD and the term Taqiyya was injected around 100 years later Mohammed did not teach it but the 6th Imam started to use it Please try doing research on the words etymology, origins and actual meanings before spouting off on something you show no knowledge about or better yet try reading the Qu’ran alongside the bible and compare the to each other

    Taqiyya, or not showing their faith openly by means of
    pretense, dissimulation, or concealment, is a special
    type of LYING which is
    taught and used by Shi’a Muslims,
    cf. Sunni Muslims and Taqiyya.
    “Taqiyya” (or taqiyyah) is related to the terms “taqwa'”
    and “taqi'” – all have the root meaning of “guarding”
    something, in this case, the Islamic faith.

    This practice, along with the practice of
    Kithman,
    or concealing their faith from non-Shi’as, were, and
    are many places today, a method of self-preservation for
    the Shi’a community. Historically, the Shiites have been
    in the minority and have been persecuted by Sunni Muslims
    who considered them heretics. Shi’as are often persecuted
    today in Pakistan and Afghanistan and Sunni-Shi’a violence
    is fairly common. Sunnis would often attempt to force
    Shi’as to curse the House of Ali – believing that no
    devout Shiite could commit such an act. As a result of
    this persecution, the idea of taqiyya emerged. In other
    words, if a Shi’a Muslim’s life is in danger, he may lie
    as long as he holds true to Ali in his heart However, although taqiyya is usually seen as a Shia doctrine only, it is practiced and
    taught also by Sunni Muslims Here just one quotation from
    a Sunni website, Islam Q&A (www.islam-qa.com), advising in regard to making friends
    with non-Muslims:

    “Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Awliyaa’ (supporters,
    helpers) instead of the believers, and whoever does that, will never be
    helped by Allaah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:28]

    This verse explains all the verses quoted above which forbid taking
    the kaafirs as friends in general terms. What that refers to is in cases
    where one has a choice, but in cases of fear and TAQIYYAH it is
    permissible to make friends with them, as much as is essential to protect
    oneself against their evil. That is subject to the condition that one’s
    faith should not be affected by that friendship and the one who is behaves
    in that manner out of necessity is not one who behaves in that manner out of http://answering-islam.org/Index/T/taqiyya.html
    choice.

    Shaykh Muhammad al-Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him)
    was asked about the ruling on mixing with the kuffaar and treating them kindly
    hoping that they will become Muslim. He replied:

    Undoubtedly the Muslim is obliged to HATE the enemies of Allaah and to
    disavow them, because this is the way of the Messengers and their followers…

    Based on this, it is not permissible for a Muslim to feel any love in his
    heart towards the enemies of Allaah who are in fact his enemies too…

    But if a Muslim treats them with KINDNESS and gentleness in the hope that
    they will become Muslim and will believe, there is nothing wrong with that,
    because it comes under the heading of opening their hearts to Islam. But if
    he despairs of them becoming Muslim, then he should treat them accordingly.

  • Bones

    Yeah…complete and utter bunkum.

    By 600ce the most common form of writing material was parchment!

    http://theruminate.blogspot.com.au/2014/02/there-were-no-european-dark-ages.html?m=1

  • Mushtaq Ahmad

    Any person who does not have the courage to show his or her real name and face is a coward.
    As for your comment that has only accusations there is no discussion possible.
    I have no Allah in my life, but may your Allah be good to you!

  • Cindy Bird

    I am Buddhist, living in Alabama. I have been harassed and even threatened by Conservative Christians. My car was keyed and I found a note saying, “Get out of this complex before you bring the Wrath of God down on us, you idol worshiper.” The note was on the letterhead of a local Evangelical Church. My upstairs neighbor is Muslim. He came outside and was shocked by what had happened. He told me not to listen to people who don’t understand other people’s religion. He even thanked me for hanging prayer flags to bless everyone in the complex. Later that day, his wife came down and brought cookies. Her teenage son was outside with GX21 trying to wax out the key marks. I have found more acceptance from the Muslim Community than I have any Christian group.

  • Cindy Bird

    See my post above

  • Doug Tozier

    Well then, quote the context so I will be better informed.

  • Pakistani

    If stating of my name makes any difference, then here it is, My name is Syed Sayef Hussain. Now you must need my address also? And you also want to see my face? Well, then give your personal email address. I will send my photos to you, which you may see to your hearts content.

    You said, “no discussion possible”. Well, you want to discuss on your lousy disbelieve? Keep your disbelief to you. No need for me to discuss this issue with you. Lakum deenukum walya deen – your belief to you, and my belief is to mine.

  • Ramis Wells

    Your argument was that God was as moral as every society that has ever existed agrees about what is moral and what is not. A consensus is an agreement between parties. It doesn’t matter what the nature of the consensus is about for there to be an agreement. If what you said was true that every society agrees about what is moral and what is not then that would be a consensus hence my use of the term and my refutation of your claim that societies agree on what is moral and what is not. Every society may have frowned on murder as you claim but that does not mean that murder is immoral unless there is an objective reason as to why murder is immoral. You may not like the idea of being murdered any more than anyone else but if there were no law against murder, there would be far fewer people on the earth today. Without there being a standard of what is right and wrong then we would all be lost to relativism.

    You can point to whatever chapters of the Old Testament that you’d like. I’d be willing to bet that you yourself have never read them outside of a website that points out what those chapters have contained within them. And I’d also be willing to bet that if you did read those chapters you would find out WHY slavery occurred and WHY God allowed it. But I would challenge you to read the entire Book of Exodus and the entire Book of Leviticus instead of just one chapter of the respective books.

    The fact that you are continually bringing morality and God’s apparent immorality into this discussion means that since God’s standard is not your standard he is therefore immoral thereby making yourself and standards of greater authority.

    It seems that you’re better at denying reason even your own reasoning rather than following the rationale of your own argument.

  • Ramis Wells

    Jesus is saying that in order to follow Jesus people have to forsake all, meaning they would have to choose Jesus over their own family. It doesn’t mean that people are supposed to HATE their parents or spouses. How can we honor our fathers and mothers (Exodus 20:12; Ephesians 6:2) by hating them? How can husbands love their wives (Ephesians 5:25; Colossians 3:19) if they hate them?

  • Ramis Wells

    Muslims and leftists like you think truth is hate because the truth exposes your false claims. Muslims are 51% of the population in Bosnia which means that any secularism that exists there will not for much longer if things remain as they are or increase.

    I mean the Albania where the people were doing good things during WW2 in spite of islamic teachings.

  • Ramis Wells

    Why don’t you read Numbers 29-30?

  • Ramis Wells

    The fact that you think that I’m lying when I’ve posted proof and you haven’t and now accusing me of being an Israeli apologist shows how much you love islam. That’s fine. I hope you practice islam correctly because you can be killed if you don’t.

  • Ramis Wells

    The Saudi royal family has nothing to do with pure islam. The king is not a descendant of muhammad.

    Muslims all over the world hate other muslims because they believe that other sects of islam aren’t real muslims. It has nothing to do with the House of Saud but everything to do with the fact that muhammad commanded those that followed him to kill apostates and hypocrites.

    https://sunnah.com/bukhari/88/5
    sura 9:73
    sura 66:9

  • Doug Tozier

    The Bible is not an objective standard either, because murder is not flatly condemned by god. So, whatever it is you think you are arguing against in all of my combined responses doesn’t matter because your standard is no different than mine. Perhaps I can clarify- We have the cumulative wisdom of thousands of years of human society upon which we can draw as an example of how to act morally and uphold basic human rights. In juxtaposition to a book of rigid rules and regulations that make no sense and actually contradict each other from time to time, we can adjust our moral compass based on practical experience and value to human life and well-being. That is not to claim that we will always get it right, but when compared to a god who does not follow his own commandments, I would say that our relativism is less egregious than that of ANY religion.

  • Herm

    Ramis, you are quite right. We must love and honor our carnal family. We must, to be able to learn from Jesus the Christ exclusively, hate all the carnal familial traditions and its evolving lessons, that fragment mine from others of Man for the survival of me and mine (blood family or carnal church family) before all others, before we can passionately focus to learn from the Teacher the truth of God. We must love the world as God loves the world, enough to die for it, not as my familial animal instincts first loves itself, then its own, to kill for it. That is the cross I bear to learn from my divine school master.

    I know that was a run on sentence but I had to frame the picture in carnal terms the best I know how to portray the fuller picture in my heart and mind of spirit (in the image of God who is spirit).

    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

    John 3:16-21 (NIV2011)

    The Spirit of truth is my Teacher instructed by Christ, my brother and Lord, and my Father in every word of God shared with me. I deeply love my carnal family, all, but the physical lessons I needed in obedience as their child to survive to be an adult of Man are not in agreement with what I need to survive as a child of God eternally in spirit.

    I hate survival of the fittest used as a familial code of ethics because only the adults can possibly be fit enough to survive. I can better survive on earth as an adult but there is still only a guarantee that I will die as a member of mankind. Man is first an animal species of which each of its members will cease to support Man. It requires propagation of the species for each and every animal species on earth to survive beyond its members. According to the Bible only the species mankind has the image of God (spirit only) at their disposal. I have not seen any evidence to the contrary. With that image of God we are able to accept the Spirit of God as a little helpless child of God dependent upon our family of God to survive for up to and including eternity.

    I love my wife and children with my entire being and that fulfills the will of carnal Man who is finite. I now love the Lord my God with all my heart, with all my soul, with all my strength, with all my mind (all of which make up me as spirit in my entirety), and I do love my good neighbor (regardless of tribe, religion, gender or sexual attraction) as I do love myself, and I do love my enemy enough to carry a cross that they might one day be forgiven for what they know not what they do and live … and that fulfills the will of God who is an infinite spirit.

    Disciple means student, pupil, follower. Our salvation from the destructive small minded, self centered, competitive and exclusive tribal teaching of mankind can only come from He who has the actual vision of omnipresence, the relative knowledge of omniscience, and is able to wield constructively the responsibility of omnipotence for all there is. Our salvation comes in the form of He who can, in spirit, fully whelm each of our beings to be little children with and in all of God, most especially those of God we know as our Messiah and our heavenly Father. The Teacher who fills us, so that our imperfect carnal family lessons no longer have room for influence in our hearts and minds, is the Spirit of truth.

    Matthew heard it this way:

    “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

    Matthew 10:37-39 (NIV2011)

    John heard it this way:

    Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life. Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.

    John 12:25-26 (NIV2011)

    Truly, love you!

  • Bones

    Is this liar still around?

    Muslims around the world hate wahabbism because that is the source of Islamic extremism.

    The house of saud made a deal with the wahabbists that maintains both.

  • Bones

    You haven’t posted proof of anything.

    And yes, you are are Israeli are no logistics.

    You even accuse me of being a Muslim such are your lies.

  • Bones

    Yeah I have.

    A genocide that never happened….

    And????

  • Bones

    Lol….when a Muslim does good things it’s in spite of Islam.

    That of course destroys your only true Scotsmen fallacy.

    What a sad hateful idiot you are.

  • luvfreedom

    Graham’s father is 98.
    We need him more than the son.

  • RalphFromMi

    Your views about Islam in terms of what you say about what it’s beliefs are interesting, albeit completely at odds with the commentary from leading Islamic universities in Egypt and Saudi Arabia. I wonder if you would actually provide your sources since those source need correcting. Even Mohammed himself, in later (more authoritative because earlier conflicting tests are abrogated according to Islamic scholarship) indicated that he was unsure of his own guarantee to enter Paradise precisely because the only sure way is to die in holy Jihad. I guess you didn’t actually study Islam too closely. Muslims are people who act in a wide range of manners like anyone else, but the idea that Islam teaches what you say I. Several points is completely unsupported.

  • RalphFromMi

    Natural selection is supported – not evolution. Whatever you believe. Evolution has too many crazy large holes in it to be considered as anything more than conjecture.

  • RalphFromMi

    In the end, the evolutionists stopped working with statisticians who understood chemistry and biology back in the 70s, because the old trick of just adding a couple billion more years at every roadblock doesn’t really fix anything. One may say “I don’t believe in a creationist viewpoint because of a, b and c.” That is a legitimate scientific approach that would require response. But don’t think that the “science” of evolution is solid. It is anything but. And it has so many issues that it needs to be guarded like a false religion.

  • RalphFromMi

    Your “keeping the words that are in the right place” is a massive unsupported premise. It’s kind of like creating a simple building block protein with 200 proteins in the right place at the right time and the right quantity in the primordial soup to begin the process of building to life – but as chemist know, water is highly destructive to these chemical reaction and dissolves everything rather quickly… Sorry. And those damn monkeys of yours obvious were shoving letter to-and-fro but moved from frenetic unguided chance to having an intelligence to leave the correctly positioned letters in place once set… Do you realize how faulty that enabling presence is? The whole of evolution is littered with these crazy, unsupported “plug” calculations to survive even an attempt to create a basic justification for evolution – because intelligence had to select for the right letters. If you do this SAME calculation without that crazy assumption, the likelihood of your conjecture being true is indistinguishable from zero. I. Fact, back to the 200 proteins coming together in a primordial stew to build that building block, has a 10 to the minus 160th power chance by statistical calculations. Note the the chance that the Second Law of Thermodynamics will be overturned by evidence at this point is only likely at a 10 to the minus 80th power. No, you can attack all sorts of viewpoints with reasonable questions, but you should blind yourself to the religion of evolution…,

  • rationalobservations?

    Please follow this link to the answers and evidence you seek:
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/15-answers-to-creationist/

    Get back to me if you have any further questions or need further educating and informing., and…
    You’re welcome!

  • rationalobservations?

    Creationists and Scientific Logic
    Scott Anderson

    “Creationists are of the opinion that creationism constitutes a better explanation of the evolutionary process? By what standard would they consider it better? Creationism demands that the logic of the scientific method be abandoned in favor of whatever logic one might be able to scrape out of the Bible.

    Special creationism demands that we believe that some six thousand years ago the universe was magically created, with the sun appearing long after plants, and man apparently living concurrently with carnivorous animals (perhaps including dinosaurs). It demands that all the planetary evidence that coincides with evolutionary theory (the geologic table, continental drift, erosion, et cetera), all the biological evidence (DNA, biochemistry, microbiology, anthropology, et cetera), all the historical evidence (the fossil record, archaeology, anthropology, et cetera), all the astronomical evidence (quantum singularities, the age of stars, the history of the universe, et cetera) has been misinterpreted. The evidence from physics and chemistry (the speed of light, the laws of thermodynamics, amino acids and proteins, et cetera, et cetera, ad infinitum, ad absurdum) have all been misinterpreted. And I’m even leaving out several fields.

    They are all in error, I take it? Why, then, has it all seemed to fit so well? Was it a conspiracy, or was it simply science’s way of hiding the fact that they had no idea?

    Creationists still have to show that science is, in fact, wrong. This must first occur before they can begin postulating how the errors (as they must call them) persisted for so long. Creationists are more than happy to accept scientific reasoning but are unwilling to accept the conclusions. That’s why the battle is not creation versus evolution. Perhaps many creationists believe that, but it is not the case.

    The same thoughts and processes thereof that led to the theory of evolution exist in all branches of science. It’s called the scientific method. In addition, evolution gets direct and indirect support from a thousand different facts from every constellation in the sky of science. In addition, evolution gives direct and indirect support to every constellation. Science is not a batch of unrelated theories – science is a unit.

    To replace evolution with creationism would dictate that we throw out all the data we have about the age of the universe (all of it points to billions of years, not thousands). We would have to throw away the psychological data gained from testing on, for instance, lab rats. How could the data from rats relate in any way to the inspired, specially created souls of human beings? Anthropology would have to be dispensed with. Archaeology would find itself in the trash bin. Biology books would be so much toilet paper. In short, a thousand different independent but strangely cohesive facts and theories – a million tidbits of knowledge about ourselves and our world – would have to be destroyed in favor of magic and mysticism.

    We’ve been through that before – it was called the Dark Ages. I see no logical reason why we should return to them. “

  • rationalobservations?
  • Please state how, where, and why evolution is not “solid”.
    “And it has so many issues that it needs to be guarded like a false religion.” This statement is dumb at worst and wrong at best.

  • Deuce Prez

    That phrase in not a part of the author’s biography nor was it stated anywhere on this page…..until you typed it….!!

    Anthropology is not even close to “apologetics“…. AS IF that’s even a real major….or even a minor…..or even a class offered by a community college, let along a 4 year institution.

  • RalphFromMi

    Veronica – you ought to open up a little bit in your reading choices – evident in not believing that the conjecture on evolution has no major issues. It has massive issue. I would suggest you examine some of the large group of credentialed scientists who have been documenting that evolution as postulated fails scientific muster and better fits the category of widely supported conjecture. The fact that you don’t know the well understood and admitted holes (more like freeways) in the ideas of evolution is not surprising. It is the basis of my comment about evolutionist being religious because their claimed lack of doubt and unwillingness to examine weaknesses in their arguments are the hallmark of a self-protecting cult. I have explained elsewhere in this comment section some of the issues that evolutionist thought tries to “fix” by tossing a few extra billion years in here and there. The addition of time doesn’t solve the problems, unfortunately. Even the biggest apologists for evolution, guys like Dawkins, as example, admit that life could not have happened by chance, for very clear scientific reasons, without outside-of-the-process, exogenous intelligent action. Dawson, himself, begged the question by saying life was brought here by extra-terrestrial intelligent life – amazing! The fossil record is completely inconsistent with what should be expected from an evolutionary process – as though someone removed all the clear evolutionary evidence while leaving millions of samples of fossilized life that offers no support to evolution. The “science” around evolution is more like an effort to explain evolution than actually supporting evolution through scientific review and the testing of hypotheses. That isn’t unusual since we can’t prove what happened in the past. Even where “science” is applied, it is usually well explained by natural selection which has nothing to do with evolution and is well understood and supported by evolutionists, creationists and others. I expect more comments like “stupid”, “wrong”, etc. I heard the same
    rebuttals from Children of God cultists when I asked them questions about their beliefs when I was in graduate school in Ann Arbor.

  • rationalobservations?

    Do you know of any scientists who imagine abiogenesis involved “kind of like creating a simple building block protein with 200 proteins in the right place at the right time and the right quantity in the primordial soup to begin the process of building to life..”???

    The most modern experiments involve the most abundant chemicals in an environment as near to that of the Earth 4.5 billion years ago and it has been observed that those chemicals link into primitive forms of RNA like “proto-life” that in one experiment were observed to mutate and start a process of evolution by means of natural selection. All that was needed (as you can observe from your window) is around 4,000,000,000 years for the most primitive forms of proto-life to evolve into a vast but interrelated diversity of life forms that includes our own so very recently evolved species of ape.

    Your obsession with the simile is noted. You ignorance of the science and evidence also noted.

    The second law of thermodynamics is uncontested by the evidence of and for evolution. The third law applies to closed systems only. The Earth is not a closed system since it has had the constant input of energy in the form of light and heat since the Earth itself coalesced and solidified Circa 5,000,000,000 years ago.

    The much respected journal “Scientific American” have a web page designed to answer the kind of questions (including your misunderstanding if the application of the 2nd law of thermodynamics) you may have regarding evolution and the overwhelming evidence that supports the scientific disciplines that are connected to, and dependent upon, evolution.

    Please follow this link and get back to me if you have further questions.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/15-answers-to-creationist/

    Best wishes to you and yours.

  • rationalobservations?
  • RalphFromMi

    In order to address my points you show your lack of both logic and use of straw men arguments to sidestep my points. As an example, your comment about the second law of thermodynamics has nothing to do with my point and the stats used regarding the probability of it being co tradicted by evidence is a statistical point made by people who have no ax to grind in the issue of evolution, it was simply a reference stat – which you understood but needed a straw man, so any port in a storm seems to work for you. You argue like a member of a religious cult, because you have to destroy any issues that show holes In the conjecture about evolution. That is not a scientific approach – but you don’t realize that as a “believer”.

  • RalphFromMi

    LOL – thank-you holy Father of the faith.

  • RalphFromMi

    Better than your preferred use far left like Hitler, Mao and Stalin.

  • Bones

    Interesting how Hitler the social conservative gets thrown in with the far left…especially as all his allies were far right like Franco, Horthy, Antonescu, Mussolini…

    You’d think the right are embarrassed by something.

  • Bones

    Wtf are you going on about?

    I’m not talking about Corey but the previous poster.

    Read the thead derp.

  • rationalobservations?

    It is the duty of the informed to educate and inform the ignorant my son of indoctrinated delusions and ignorance.

    That is my ongoing quest and pleasure and;
    You’re welcome.

  • rationalobservations?

    What “points” do you refer to, Ralphie?
    All I have noticed from you is recycled pseudo scientific creationist garbage that has no scientific basis whatsoever.

    You have been referred to actual scientific rebuttals of that garbage and it is hilarious that you fail to project your own failure to address real science while you resort only to straw men and recycled lies.

    I await your revelation of these so called “holes” in the science and fact of observed and evidence supported evolution.

    You crackpot denialists are dying out and all the leaders of the dying cults, sects and businesses or religion from Popes down accept and recognise the fact of evolution.

    Your denial is ridiculous.

    Your bunkum remains debunked.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/15-answers-to-creationist/

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/science/aqa_pre_2011/evolution/evolutionrev3.shtml

    “Evidence for evolution comes from many different areas of biology:
    Anatomy. Species may share similar physical features because the feature was present in a common ancestor (homologous structures).
    Molecular biology. DNA and the genetic code reflect the shared ancestry of life. DNA comparisons can show how related species are.
    Biogeography. The global distribution of organisms and the unique features of island species reflect evolution and geological change.
    Fossils. Fossils document the existence of now-extinct past species that are related to present-day species.
    Direct observation. We can directly observe small-scale evolution in organisms with short lifecycles (e.g., pesticide-resistant insects).”

    https://www.khanacademy.org/science/biology/her/evolution-and-natural-selection/a/lines-of-evidence-for-evolution

    http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/lines_02

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/04/

    The evidence of, and for, evolution is overwhelming.

    Thank you for so comprehensively demonstrating that the alternative to evolution is not wacko creationism. It is ignorance, lies and superstition.

    Next…???

  • Phil

    So in general muslims are peaceful nice people? So how do you account for the lynchings in Pakistan for blasphemers and women who want education or to love someone not approved by the populous. They lynchers are the majority and not a few radicalized unhappy teenagers.

  • Phil

    Ok, explain your version of entropy with regard to photosynthesis? A complex tree can’t possibly come from sunlight and carbon-dioxide can it.

  • Phil

    enlightened belief – What an oxymoron.

  • Baymond

    Sir, you are merely another apologist naive Christian. I do not entirely dispute what you think you are saying, but you are missing a few key points – ones you cannot defend: Our country was founded on complete and total (that’s the goal anyways) separation of Church and State. Islam at it’s fundamental core IS the State. It is a way of life, governed by the Muslim hierarchy which again, IS the State (uhhhhh look at the Middle East, kind of where all that is ya know?) Of course not all Muslims want to hurl gays “from the highest place in the City” and/or Stone them to death (if they can make up their minds) – or lop folks heads off for degrading the Quran – but that brings me to my 2nd key point: Peaceful law abiding Muslims have NEVER demonstrated throughout history the ability to CONTAIN the very radical elements you are defending. That’s why THEY are HERE. They then choose to not assimilate to our Western culture and values. Why is that? THEY prefer to bring their third world stone age way of life HERE because that is their Islam. They do not, will not or cannot DIE fighting for their own countries and peaceful lives, preferring instead to allow their three year olds to wash up on foreign shores and somehow blame the West for not wanting to be over run by their shear fleeing numbers. RIght now Dearborn, MI is enjoying their own little Muslim social experiment. Let’s sit back and see how that runs it’s course…….over TIME friend. Oh and you left out the part where Jesus, (considered as a Muslim), will abide by the Islamic teachings after he slays “the devil”. And there will be but ONE community, that of ISLAM.

  • Clayton Gafne Jaymes

    Psalm 83:1 O God, do not keep silence;
    do not hold your peace or be still, O God!
    2
    For behold, your enemies make an uproar;
    those who hate you have raised their heads.
    3
    They lay crafty plans against your people;
    they consult together against your treasured ones.
    4
    They say, “Come, let us wipe them out as a nation;
    let the name of Israel be remembered no more!”
    5
    For they conspire with one accord;
    against you they make a covenant—
    6
    the tents of Edom and the ISHMAELITES*(*having to do with the Muslims*)*,
    Moab and the Hagrites,
    7
    Gebal and Ammon and Amalek,
    Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre;
    8
    Asshur also has joined them; -[ESV
    ***
    Google:
    Islam. Ishmael is recognized as an important prophet and patriarch of Islam. Muslims believe that Ishmael was the firstborn of Abraham, born to him from his second wife Hagar. Ishmael is recognized by Muslims as the ancestor of several prominent Arab tribes and being the forefather of Muhammad

    JW short article on ‘Ishmaelites’:
    https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002216

  • Stop saying that muslims are hospitable; so are christians, hindus, budists, voodoo worshipers, pagans, atheists, dogs, cats, sheeps etc, etc , etc. It is a dumb argument. Better talk about abrogation, about why the last part of the Quoran calls for violence against people that do not believe in Allah including Jews and Christians. Talk about the open command to kill unbelievers and if so desired to extend grace upon them and allow them to live with conditions. Talk about why this religion expanded through violence from the outset unlike christianity. The christian bible calls for the abrogation of the Law where all the troubling commands to kill the adulterer, homosexual and others was proclaimed to be obsolete and not to be followed. Is there something similar in the Quoran? If the life of Muhammad is the perfect life to be emulated by all muslims how can you expect muslims to be peaceful in the end? The guy had an army and killed in his own time to extend the religion. Compare that with the life of Jesus who preached non violence to the point that he scolded the one that used violence to protect him. Also, do you actually think that what Israel is doing is genocide?? Well that about explains your article!!! Disgusting…………….

  • Holly Baby Catkiss

    Sure, as if Christians don’t kill in they name of their religion.

    Oh wait, they do. Don’t act like they are such innocent people.

  • Holly Baby Catkiss

    What makes you think Christians aren’t capable of making the western world a Christian state? It has happened in the past and it probably will happen again.

    Do you really think Christians assimilate? No, they want everyone to be Christian. Christianity came from a third world stone age time too. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam came from the same man: Abraham. They all worship the same God.

    They are fleeing their countries because our country is bombing innocent men, women, and children.

  • Holly Baby Catkiss

    Yeah, because Christians are such “nice” people. Not.

    Google how Christians are killing people in Africa right now, but you know let’s all blame the Muslims

  • Baymond

    Uhhhh, We have grappled with our own issues yes for sure and we are not perfect by any means, but your last sentence is absurd. Like I said – Peaceful Muslims do not, will not or cannot DIE fighting for their own countries and beautifully peaceful lives. Peaceful law abiding Muslims have NEVER demonstrated throughout history the ability to CONTAIN their own radical elements that demand complete and total assimilation or else. We have grappled with and (for the most part) contained our radical elements. And back and forth and back and forth we go. Yes Christianity CAME from the Stone Age, but with the New Testament, we’ve moved on friend. Muslim’s radical elements insist on staying in the Stone Ages.

  • Holly Baby Catkiss

    Right, because Christians don’t demand complete and total assimilation or else.

    See the witch trials in America and Europe and the Inquisition. How about the slaughter of Pagans that were forced to covert to “Christianity” or die? How about the slaughter thousands of Native Americans? You “Christians” are responsible for taking the Native Americans land and putting them on reservations, forcing them to convert to “Christianity”, taking their children by force and putting them in your “Christian” schools, forcing them to speak your language while forbidding them to speak their own language.

    Guess that was imagined right?

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_594c46e4e4b0da2c731a84df/amp https://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/10-worst-terror-attacks-extreme-christians-and-far-right-white-men

    https://www.thenation.com/article/its-not-just-uganda-behind-christian-rights-onslaught-africa/ https://www.google.com/amp/www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-kaoma-uganda-gays-american-ministers-20140323-story,amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en_ca/article/qbxamb/the-anti-gay-movement-in-uganda-is-still-alive-and-kicking

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/centralafricanrepublic/12018588/Christian-militias-in-Central-African-Republic-burnt-witches-at-stake-says-UN-report.html https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN0TF03920151126
    https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/return-to-africas-witch-children/

  • Holly Baby Catkiss

    Christians are ABSOLUTE hypocrites fearing Sharia Laws when Americas law books are loaded with Christian laws.

  • Baymond

    Man you are just a troll……..you clearly have not read let alone comprehend what I’ve written, which addresses ALL of your troll remarks directly. Take your trolling traitor ways somewhere else TROLL.

  • Holly Baby Catkiss

    How is it when a Muslim does something evil Islam gets demonized, but when a Christian does something evil then all of a sudden they’re not “true Christians” and they were just mentally ill?

    Oh right because Christians are “nice” “tolerant” people right? Wrong.

    Every group has it’s extremists even Christianity. Don’t act like you Christians shit don’t stink!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslims_in_the_United_States_military http://www.newsweek.com/muslim-countries-forming-military-alliance-fight-terrorism-586315 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3715233/Faces-American-Muslims-died-fighting-country-9-11-revealed-fallen-soldier-s-father-tells-Trump-sacrificed-no-one.html

  • Baymond

    UR just another babbling troll spewing banter gibberish to try and argue.

  • Holly Baby Catkiss

    Brahaha. Yeah, at least I can be intelligent rather than call people names and try to belittle those who have different opinions. Unlike you.

  • Baymond

    Well, it’s clear then…….You’ve won me over with your intelligence, persistence and ability to use language to get folks to change how they see things. Thanks man – all the best.

  • Bones

    Idiot.

  • Baymond

    Back at ya Bone head

  • Baymond

    ^^^^^^ Thank you.

  • Bones

    Lol…you came back after 5 months for that….moron!

  • Bones

    Glad I can help out.

  • Baymond

    Anytime for you ole friend, you retired intellectual little troll …you devil you…….

  • Bones

    Lol….well we can see your stupidity for what it is.

    The Muslims are coming to getcha.

    You really are a sad and pathetic individual.

  • Baymond

    Back at yas Bone Head troll. You and your friends keep on a trollin’ bud. I’ll seek therapy for my current state. Hey, thanks again for dragging us all back to JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL. You take care now my friend.

  • Bones

    Lol…you’ve dragged us back to elementary school with your juvenile posts derpaderp.

    Look out for those Muslims, troll.

  • Baymond

    No fear here man. Like I said in OP……the fear is with good, God fearing and peace loving folks (yes I mean MUSLIMS)….scared of their (your) own zealots with zero guts to deal with themselves (yourselves) among themselves (yourselves).

  • Bones

    Lol….yeah sure….tough guy…..Western Muslims have more to fear from bigots like yourself. moron.

  • Jeff Burns

    Many, many writers about Islam, many many refugees from Islamic nations such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Turkey, Indonesia, etcetera, have noted that when Islam achieves sociopolitical dominance, it is mysogynistic, homophobic, anti-Semitic, aggressive against other religions, and triumphalistic. Secular observers have noted this. Persons reared as Muslims themselves have written about it. This article is a whitewash.

  • karentd

    so is Christianity all of the above if interpreted by wrong-headed or religiously motivated parties… For example, the Evangelical Movement is all of the above and then some. These narrow-minded preachers of any faith do more damage than good.

  • P J Evans

    [citation needed]

  • P J Evans

    Europe had been in an intellectual decline for centuries BEFORE there even were Muslims.
    Take a class in medieval history some time – it should start about the year 400CE, when the Roman empire was collapsing.

  • P J Evans

    Maybe you should do your own research, instead of expecting everyone else to explain it to you.

  • P J Evans

    Including Europe, where it was common right into the 18th century.

  • P J Evans

    Some Christians hate everyone who doesn’t belong to their own particular sect. It’s not ALL Christians, any more than it’s ALL Muslims.
    Not that you’ll ever notice, stuck in your own bigotry.

  • P J Evans

    They did help preserve a lot of knowledge that would otherwise have been lost – and there’s some evidence that people did marry across religious boundaries.

  • james warren

    You’d think more people would be reading and studying the Qur’an today, but we should admit that there is a deliberate plan by many to keep us in the dark about Islam today. The religion makes a great scapegoat and serves many people well for ginning up fear and alarm and blaming it on a religion.

    The Qur’an actually says nothing about 72 virgins, shariah law, women’s dress codes. It says more about Jesus, Mary, Moses, Abraham and Jacob–to name only a few names from the Christian Bible.

    “The most excellent jihad is that for the conquest of self.”
    –Muhammed

    “You hypocrite! Look to the log in your own eye before you deem to point out the tiny speck of sawdust in your neighbor’s.”
    –Jesus of Nazareth

    The Christian New Testament is anti-Semitic and portrays a jealous, violent God. Jesus [of “love your enemies” and “do not judge” fame] wears blood-soaked robes and slaughters the unfaithful until the level of the blood and gore “reaches the height of a horse’s bridle for a distance of 200 miles [The Book of Revelation]. And in the Gospel according to John, the author has inserted some vitriolic anti-Jewish rhetoric in the mouth of Jesus himself. This was because when John was written, many Jews who were following Jesus were being kicked out of the synagogues and John’s community of believers wanted their revenge.

    They wanted a Jesus who spoke to them and their own concerns, so they fashioned one.

  • james warren

    Do you know what happened to the faith in Jesus when the early church got in bed with the Roman Empire in the 4th century?
    Our how does our American Empire deal with Jesus’ teachings like “love your enemies,” “Do not Judge” or “Give to everyone who begs from you?”

    Are you aware that the New Testament describes a Jesus in bloody robes that slaughters the unfaithful like a divine ethnic cleanser?
    And that the resulting blood and gore “reaches the height of a horse’s bridle for a distance of 200 miles?”

  • james warren

    Actually, as far as charitable giving, the Muslims are number one.
    Look it up.

    It was Muslims, not Christians, who raised upwards of $55,000 and $95,000 to repair two Jewish cemeteries [one in Philadelphia, one in St. Louis] to help repair two vandalized JEWISH cemeteries.

    It was the Muslim people of Iran who spontaneously took to the streets in Tehran with lighted candles to stand in solidarity with America the night after 9/11.

    And polls have shown that 90% of Muslims world-wide denounced the 9/11 attacks.

    Don’t take my [or any one else’s] word for anything.
    Know what you’re talking about.
    Do some critical, focused study.
    Get a library card.
    Read.

  • james warren

    Name-calling is not a mature way to engage in dialogue with anyone.
    Turn it around:
    How do YOU feel when someone calls YOU “an idiot?”

  • james warren

    Do you know anything about the Reformation in Europe?

    The Christian quote “Vengeance is Mine” would fit quite nicely stenciled on the back of a terrorist’s suicide vest.

    Don’t you think?

  • james warren

    And there is NOTHING about “Shariah Law” in the Qur’an.
    Anyone here read the Qur’an or even think it important to do so?

    Muhammed was not commissioned by Allah to be a ruler.
    And it is only the word “shariah” that is in the Qur’an and it refers to “a clear path.”
    It is not meant as a legal term at all.

  • james warren

    What about Jesus in John’s gospel spouting vitriolic anti-Semitic ugliness?
    What about the anti-Semitism that virtually drips from the Christian text?
    What about the Jesus wearing blood-soaked robes who slaughters the unfaithful so that the level of the blood and gore reaches “the height of a horse’s bridle for a distance of 200 miles?”

    We have been tooled by the church as well as by populist politics.

    Bible study is actually “studying the Bible.”

  • james warren

    Childish name-calling is a good dodge. It’s an oft-used tool in “blaming the messenger.”

  • james warren

    Again, dispense with the sandbox epithets.
    I am aware that adult dialogue demands much of us.

    It’s my view that adults who were not brought up in their own families in an atmosphere of caring, kindness, respect and fairness never learned the art of mature disagreement or collaborative problem-solving.

  • james warren

    Baymond, that sounds sarcastic.
    Did you mean it that way?

    Sarcasm is always a “cover emotion” for anger.
    Be honest and accountable–say you are angry and be specific about why you are angry. Then communicate it like an adult.

  • james warren

    How do you account for the Catholic and Protestant bombings and murders in Belfast in the 70s?
    What’s your opinion of the Christian militias in Africa who slaughter innocent Muslim families?
    What about abortion clinic bombings and the assassination of doctors?
    What about the blood-chilling language of many of today’s self-identified Christians?

    It’s a global culture now and it’s too simplistic to think the people over here are good and those people over there are evil.

    “The Father makes his sun to shine on both the evil and the good and lets his rain fall on the righteous and the unrighteous alike.”
    –Jesus in Matthew 5:45

  • james warren

    Read the Qur’an. We have been fed a few shovel-fulls of misinformation and lies by many in this country.
    No women’s dress rules, no Shariah Law, no 72 virgins, no terrorism, etc. etc.

    Don’t let ANYONE keep you deliberately stupid and living in the dark.

    KNOW what you are talking about.

    READ.

  • Baymond

    Nice try man, that’s Revelation and is talking about hell: Revelation 14:19–20:
    “19 So the ANGEL swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest (sin) of the earth and threw it into the great winepress (judgement) of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse’s bridle, for 1,600 stadia.”

    Translation? (D.A. Carson Professor, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School):
    “If you lose the turning aside of the wrath of God, what you lose is how sin is, itself, bound up with offending God. It is not just offending an impersonal moral code. It is offending God. And, thus, the love of God is lost or, at least, the glory of the love of God is lost.” “As you move from the Old to the New, the picture of the love of God is ratcheted up”. Hence, a firm reminder that hell is not forgotten simply because of the gentleness of Jesus Christ in the New Testament.

    I enjoy how everyone of you that reply can only attack Christianity. You totally FAIL to address my comment directly. The reason is you cannot because peaceful law abiding Muslims have NEVER demonstrated throughout history the ability to CONTAIN their own radical elements that demand complete and total assimilation or else. I’m simply commenting on Islam and how it handles it’s own, (or rather FAILS) to handle it’s own RADICAL ELEMENTS. So, please do explain how Islam handles it’s OWN internal radical elements? You cannot because the peaceful folks of Islam ARE THE problem because they are not radical enough.

  • Phil

    Wow!. I don’t have to account for any of the above. Xians are just as bad. Religion is just bad, plain and simple. Get rid of that and you have just nasty people doing nasty things with nothing to hide behind or justify their actions.

  • Bones

    “Nice try man, that’s Revelation and is talking about hell: Revelation 14:19–20:”

    Nah…it isn’t.

    It’s judgement on Rome for the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.

    It’s interesting that Christianity still FAILS to CONTAIN RADICAL ELEMENTS like yourself.

  • Bones

    Yeah I know a fair bit about the Reformation and the Troubles in Ireland. My ancestors fled the ‘Great Famine’ when Protestants were rejoicing at the deaths of Catholics.

    Extremism is evil, no matter what it’s creed.

  • Phil

    No thanks, I do read, but only sensible books and fiction. Not fiction dressed up and sold as fact.

  • Baymond

    Still a lurking troll who believes up is down just because he proclaims it. You only spew gibberish for the sake of gibberish argument……I got nothing on that one man……..it’s a DIRECT QUOTE from the Bible: Revelation 14: 19-20…that’s what the other troll tried to put onto Jesus. (1600 Stadia = 200 Roman miles btw.)

    Answer my comment directly please? When has your religion EVER controlled itself, within itself?

    Interesting how we can even have this “discussion” here in the USA……..wonder how my comments would fare, say….in hmmmmmm…hey Bones! YOU pick the place my new friend……….

    No more arguing – I’m not going to change you and you sure as hell are not going to change me. But this I know: I fully accept the probability that God exists and will gladly stand for my own replies to trolls like you who refuse to engage in any sort of dialogue except spewing gibberish argument.

    Just go on with your angry life and consider stopping sometime and having an ice cream, a good laugh, and maybe even a smile.
    Consider being thankful that you can experience a natural world around you that did not happen by shear luck and chance.

  • Bones

    Still speaking about yourself, moron.

    Revelation 14 talks about a city derpy.

    It’s Rome.

  • Ron McPherson

    Apparently Baymond thinks you should “consider stopping sometime and having an ice cream, a good laugh, and maybe even a smile” before you get thrown into a never-ending incinerator.

  • Baymond

    There are several loose ends that must be tied up before God’s final wrath is detailed. THAT is the purpose of Revelation 14. I envy you Mr. Bones. You’re so friggin’ smart and intellectual, you can sit and discuss with yourself all of your misguided, historic re-writes. Go ahead, you have the last word and collect your misinformation fees……what name do you have for me now? And uhhhhhhh, you still have FAILED to answer my question directly. Please Mr. Bones: ANSWER MY QUESTION DIRECTLY? I’m out.

  • Ron McPherson

    They were debating about the meaning of a passage in Revelation. He was insisting to Bones it was about hell. Talking about a fiery place as a destination for some (no I didn’t see him specifically say that would happen to Bones) and then advising Bones to enjoy life seemed funny. That’s why I said “apparently”.

  • james warren

    Isn’t your phrase “sensible books” a subjective interpretation?

  • james warren

    Silly bear.
    It was not my intention to make you responsible.
    It seems to me that any native speaker of English would see the word “account” as an invitation to put some thought into the reasons behind actual historical facts, evidence and data.

  • james warren

    The God of Jesus was nonviolent, gracious, open-hearted and righteous, spreading fair, distributive justice and great mercy.

    This is the reason why the church pays little attention to Jesus’ preaching. They don’t want to let him speak for himself. He is just too disturbing. He was then; he still is.

    Usually radical elements are marginalized or else separate from the majority and eventually die out.

    This was the case of the Essenes in Jewish history . Or, during the horrific religious wars of the 1600s and the 1700s.

    The human idea of the divine always diminishes through time.
    Abraham sat down with Yahweh face to face to produce the great covenant face-to-face. But in the next generation Moses was ordered to hide his face in the cleft of the rock when God passed by.

    The template for the Sumerian civilization’s evolution through time is:
    1. The gods rule
    2. The gods rule through me
    3. “I RULE !!!”

  • Phil

    You are absolutely right. So lets rephrase that and set the bar really low. I only read non-fiction books with a modicum of plausibility. So it is still a ‘No thanks’.

  • james warren

    It’s a good thing for being aware of our innate subjectivity. We often say this or that is true when we really need to be honest and say I THINK or I FEEL” that is true because _____”

  • james warren

    Sometime you ought to read Capote’s “In Cold Blood.”

  • james warren

    Revelation is full of violence and revenge. It is easy to see why.

    At the time John of Patmos wrote the book, Christianity was under attack and Christians were being persecuted by the empire. A decade or so later, the Roman/Jewish War erupted. The horrific situation surrounding Revelation included the Emperor Nero’s killing of both Peter and Paul–among thousands of others.

    Whenever you have apocalyptic scenarios in the Bible, it is always a response to historical events that create hopelessness and misery. Things are so bad that the prophets and writers have only one hope: that God will show up as a divine ethnic cleanser and destroy the world or their enemies. It is a literary example of “helpless thinking.”

    But like Christians, a few Muslims tend to show a blind eye toward their fundamentalist brothers and sisters.

    The night after 9/11, thousands of residents of Tehran in Iran spontaneously took to the streets with lighted candles to march in support of America.

    In the last year, Muslims in two different American cities–Philadelphia and St. Louis–immediately set up a website to solicit funds for Jewish leaders and synagogues to help repair widespread vandalism to Jewish cemeteries.

    They raised around $ 500,000 [if I remember right] in a matter of minutes.

    The idea of 72 virgins, dress codes for women, Shariah Law, etc. are not addressed in the Qur’an.

    Take it from me. I have actually read it.

    Jesus’ mother Mary is mentioned more times in there Qur’an than she is in the Bible. The Qur’an also elevates, Jesus, Abraham, Jacob, Noah and many others from the Bible.

    Mohammed says that “the most excellent jihad is against the self.”

  • xpatYankeeCurmudgeon

    You are the sort of prog idiot still asking zherself “Why do they hate us?”

  • Phil

    Oh why is that? How is it even remotely relevant?

  • james warren

    It is an example of top-class journalism using objective reporting and subjective opinion.

    This is what good religious scholars do. They amass actual facts and then offer their conclusions for peer and public review.

    Some of the facts in the Qur’an that I discovered is that there is nothing about Shariah Law, 72 virgins or women’s fashion rules.

    And jihad does not refer to violent action.

    “The most excellent jihad is against the Self.”
    –Muhammed

  • Phil

    Ok so this guy amassed a lot of facts and wrote a book. The key there is facts. So where are all the facts about a god? There are none. So it is a complete waste of a l life trying to study something there is zero evidence for.

  • Phil

    You keep telling me I should read this and that. Perhaps you should read https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2018/08/06/nine-not-so-good-reasons-to-be-an-atheist/ And then UnrepentantAtheist’s response in the comments.

  • james warren

    I am offering information. It is not my intention to tax you or goad you into something beyond your abilities or opinions.

  • james warren

    There is no logical proof or rational reason why a God should exist or should not exist.

  • james warren

    Because it is a book of facts woven into a novel of fiction.

  • james warren

    I know why, because I can connect with and be accountable to the hate in my own heart.

  • Phil

    So you are saying religious books are works of fiction?

  • Phil

    “It is not my intention to tax you or goad you into something beyond your abilities or opinions.” Oh very patronizing! I very much doubt if you could.

  • Phil

    Exactly. Impossible to prove absence of a god but easy to prove one exists. Just provide a single piece of evidence. In the absence of any evidence there is no rational reason to believe one exists. Therefore there is no rational reason to follow any religion or believe any religious texts as anything more than works of fiction. Pretty poor fiction at that. So all theological arguments are mute.