Atonement? Do Jesus' Words Get Priority and Do They Demonstrate the Rest of the NT as Heresy?

Atonement? Do Jesus' Words Get Priority and Do They Demonstrate the Rest of the NT as Heresy? August 5, 2009

For the last couple of days, a kind man named Robert Roberg has been commenting on a post on the Atonement from just after Easter. If I am understanding him correctly, he believes that only the actual words of Jesus are authoritative and that the other parts of Scripture are simply commentary. Anything that seems to contradict a statement of Jesus is not true. Therefore, several statements in Paul are false, especially if they say anything having to do with “blood” or sacrifice being required to remove sin. From this perspective Jesus speaks the words of forgiveness, and that is how one finds eternal life. Here are some quotes:

“If he never died or rose he would have still completed his mission. You are cleansed (would that be forgiven?) by the word. He sent his word and healed them. The resurrection was to increase our faith and take away our fear of death as you said it vindicated everything Jesus said and did.”

Here is another quote regarding the NT:

“Although he was wounded and lost his throne of power, Satan was not giving up, he made sure the twisted blood atonement found it’s way into the other NT books. He has succeeded in clouding and diluting the words of Jesus through mixing.”

I want to invite you to read the conversation below and give some input. How would you respond to this ‘different’ kind of approach to Jesus and the Scriptures as a whole? Do Jesus’ words demonstrate that the rest of the New Testament has several contradictions? What would you say to him about issues of atonement? Are Jesus’ words what had the power to forgive, or his defeat of the powers?

(Although you may have different views, I would ask you to treat Robert with respect in your comments)

______________________

­­Jesus told us how to restore the broken connection with the father without blood or death. He said If you love me the father will love you. (Restoration accomplished). Do you need a better connection? If you keep my sayings (commandments) the father and I will make our abode with you. No blood or death involved.

The Old boys (sages of the OT) thought blood was necessary for sin removal. Wrong! If you forgive others the father will forgive you. No blood required.

Stop readin all dem damn books and read Jesus.

Peace

Robert Roberg

Gainesville FL

___________________

(KURT)

Question for Robert: Then why did Jesus have to die and resurrect? The bible seems to think it was for the “remission of sins.”

PS – I love to read Jesus… I also love to know and experience Jesus in my daily walk with his spirit!

_______________________

Sorry Kurt,

I didn’t mean to imply you don’t read Jesus, I can see you do, but like most believers you mix his truth in with the whole Bible as if all truth is equal. Plus you were recommending a list of books.

I think we get lost in the forest of the Bible and mislead by mixing. Only the word’s of Jesus are the Light, and the bread, spirit and zoe life.

Even my words are lifeless compared to his.

The blood of Jesus is found in Proverbs 8, it is “wisdom”.

It is wisdom that teaches how to remit our sins.

Jesus spoke the words of wisdom which shows us in 5 steps how to remove sins.

1.Confess your sins,

2. make amends

3. Forgive and you will be forgiven.

4. Because she loved much, her sins though many are forgiven.

5. Make a supreme effort, like the man coming down through the roof, to reach Jesus.

None of these steps involves blood, or death.

Jesus goal was not to die but to live a sinless life. It was his sinless life that broke the power of Satan. He offered his life as a ransom in a living prisoner exchange. One sinless man sinned and one sinless man conquered sin. God doesn’t cheat. He didn’t come to the earth in a skin suit and deceive the devil.

Satan was a murderer from the beginning and so Jesus knew he would die, his final temptation was to get through the final hours without sinning and he made it. He shouted in a loud voice tetlestai (the gladiator’s cry of victory).

Although he was wounded and lost his throne of power, Satan was not giving up, he made sure the twisted blood atonement found it’s way into the other NT books. He has succeeded in clouding and diluting the words of Jesus through mixing.

The point of the resurrection was so that we might believe, and prove to us that we too will rise on the final day if we follow our master and keep on studying his undiluted Gospel and keep on doing it.

Peace

Robert

__________________________

(KURT)

Robert: Thanks for coming back and giving me more to ponder. A couple of questions:

1. Do you believe that only the recorded words of Jesus are authoritative? If so why?

2. Do you not believe that the rest of the NT books are accurate in their depiction of Jesus’ death and resurrection in regard to the issue of forgiveness? If this is your view or some version of it; on what grounds do you dismiss the writings of Paul, Peter, John, and others? Is this what you mean by “Mixing?”

3. Would you categorize your belief system with a specific name?

Finally, I agree that Jesus declared forgiveness without shedding his blood in some scenarios that you mention, but it seems that without the resurrection his words would not have been valid. Resurrection vindicated Jesus as the world’s True Lord and the only one who has ever conquered death. Any thoughts here? Just trying to understand you position a bit more.

PS – Do you have a blog? Any recommended online reading I can do to further understand your views on Jesus?

____________

Hi Kurt,

. A couple of questions:

1. Do you believe that only the recorded words of Jesus are authoritative? If so why?

Jesus said heaven and earth would pass but his words would not. So yes they are authoritative.

Everything that harmonizes with the words of Jesus is true. He said his words are spirit and zoe life. He said ” am the truth. He is our gold standard by which we judge all truth. His words for me are only in the 4 Gospels and that’s why I call myself a Red Letter Christian (Not to be confused with Tony Camplos mixing of politics and Jesus).

I also call myself a “one viner” for I only draw my theology from the one vine of Jesus. The other writings I view as commentary, some of the commentary is in sync with Jesus but some of it is contrary. For example when Jesus says God does not want sacrifice and Paul , Hebrews and 2 Peter preach sacrifices I disregard their commentary and dismiss their comments as the thoughts of imperfect men being lead astray by adversaries.

2. Do you not believe that the rest of the NT books are accurate in their depiction of Jesus’ death and resurrection in regard to the issue of forgiveness? If this is your view or some version of it; on what grounds do you dismiss the writings of Paul, Peter, John, and others? Is this what you mean by “Mixing?”

I dismiss anything that does not harmonize with Jesus whether it is said by Moses, Pau, Mt, Mrk, Lk, or Jn,l or any apostle (they were all fallible men)

No amount of blood can remove the sins of an unrepentant sinner who does not forgive everyone.

“If you do not forgive others, father cannot forgive you.”

3. Would you categorize your belief system with a specific name?

“Berean” for I search the scriptures daily. I am not a teacher, preacher, prophet, expert scholar, but merely a serious student who has been wrong often and I do not inisist people agree with me. If you can show me scripture that harmonizes with Jesus, I am teachable.

Finally, I agree that Jesus declared forgiveness without shedding his blood in some scenarios that you mention, but it seems that without the resurrection his words would not have been valid. Resurrection vindicated Jesus as the world’s True Lord and the only one who has ever conquered death. Any thoughts here? Just trying to understand you position a bit more.

His mission was to deliver the logos. He was the sower sowing the logos (note he does not claim to be the logos, but preached the logos and told us to preach it.

The logos is the message of the Father as revealed by Jesus . The law came by Moses but truth came by Jesus. If he never died or rose he would have still completed his mission. You are cleansed (would that be forgiven?) by the word. He sent his word and healed them. The resurrection was to increase our faith and take away our fear of death as you said it vindicated everything Jesus said and did.

PS – Do you have a blog? Any recommended online reading I can do to further understand your views on Jesus?

I have a book on AmazonThe Gospel of the kingdom: Retold and it can be downloaded here free. http://robertroberg.com/writings/kingdom35.pdf

Peace

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