Who Goes To Heaven? Do Only Good People Go To Heaven?

Many believe that they’ve done enough good to go to heaven, but who goes to heaven? Do only good people go to heaven?

Who is Good?

If you ask a person on the street if they’re a good person, almost every one of them will tell you, “Yeah, I’m a pretty good person,” and then they’ll give you what is supposed to be evidence of that, by telling you about a few circumstances where they helped someone out or did some good things, but what does the Bible say about the goodness of man? Are there any people that we can say are really “good?” Does doing good things for others count for anything? Can it help us in our relationship with God? Yes and no, but that will be made clear later. A friend of mine was with me when we ask a man on the street if he thought he was a good person and good enough to go to heaven. He didn’t think he was a good person but said, “I’m great person! The ladies love me,” so that’s when I thought, this man doesn’t understand that none of us are good. We might do some good things, but so can a thief or bank robber. I doubt very seriously the good things he did in his life will help him in front of a judge. Neither will the excuse, “Well, I was deprived as a youth, my mother didn’t really love me,” or, “It’s the way I was raised, so it’s my parents fault” work on judgment day.

None are Good

If you think that there are good people out there, by our human standards, yes, there are many, but it’s the biblical view we want, and we are asking, “Do good people go to heaven?” and that critical question deserves an answer. The Apostle Paul quotes the psalmist in writing, “as it is written: None is righteous, no, not one” (Rom 3:10). I think Paul and the Psalmist both say, “no, not one” because the guy we met on the street thought he was the one exception, but there are no exceptions. We all fall infinitely, and I would say, impossibly short of God’s glory (Rom 3:23). That’s too far a bridge for us to gap by ourselves. We need the cross of Christ, so works not done for Christ won’t help you at all. In fact, many will claim good works as evidence of their faith, as in the case of Matthew 7:21-23 where many (not a few) will say, “Lord, Lord,” but these same many will be turned away forever. It is only when a person’s been regenerated by the Spirit of God into a new creation (2nd Cor 5:17) that they can do any good works for Christ, but not to be seen by others, but as unto Christ Himself (Matt 25:40). The dangers of not doing anything for someone who claims to be a believer are clear that those who do nothing for Christ will end up separated from God forever when Jesus tells them, “Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” (Matt 25:45-46), so “faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead” (James 2:17).

JackColemanWithOrphans

Comparing Ourselves

We like to compare ourselves with others, don’t we? I know I have, and others have done the same thing with me, my children, and other people I know, but are people the right standard before God? I’m certainly not a standard for someone to live up to. Its Christ Who is the supreme example for our lives. We must imitate Him, and not others. You can pick up on godly attributes of others, but it’s Christ that is the gold standard for what God desires in us. The Apostle Paul says that should not “dare to classify or compare ourselves with some of those who are commending themselves. But when they measure themselves by one another and compare themselves with one another, they are without understanding” (2nd Cor 10:12). It’s fine to live up to what others do but to use others to compare ourselves as to whether we’re a good person or not is flawed to begin with. The excuse I hear is, “Well, at least I’m not as bad as Joe Smith down the street who did such and such, but Joe is not our standard….we need the very righteousness of God. We might not have done as much bad as Joe, and compared to him, we might look like saints, but Joe is not the standard.

The Importance of Works

James would tell you that works have a lot to do with our faith, and in particular, whether it’s real faith or it’s an imagined faith. We don’t want to be deceived about this, and we know the hearts susceptible to this (Jer 17:9), so this is why James thought it important to write, “If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead” (James 2:15-17). That’s as if we see someone in need and we can help, but we only say, “I’m so sorry, I will pray for you,” and then do nothing. That person’s deceived and their faith is dead. What’s worse, their dead faith won’t help them on the Day of Judgment. Jesus was once asked by someone how they might do the works of God, and Jesus told them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent” (John 6:29). That’s the only work you can really do to be saved, and it’s essentially putting your trust in Christ after having repented.

Conclusion

No one is good outside of Christ. Our works are nothing more than filthy rags to God (Isaiah 64:6), but that doesn’t mean we don’t do any works at all. That would contradict Scripture. Someday, “the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me” (Matt 25:34-36). What’s the difference in these works and the works we do on our own? Jesus says, “Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me” (Matt 25:40). When we do things for others but do them for Christ and not to be seen by others, He will reward us with the sweetest words we’ll ever hear: “Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master” (Matt 25:21). This is infinitely greater than hearing, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me” (Matt 25:41-43).

Article by Jack Wellman

Jack Wellman is Pastor of the Mulvane Brethren Church in Mulvane Kansas.  Jack is a writer at Christian Quotes and also the Senior Writer at What Christians Want To Know whose mission is to equip, encourage, and energize Christians and to address questions about the believer’s daily walk with God and the Bible. You can follow Jack on Google Plus or check out his book Teaching Children the Gospel available on Amazon.

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  • pud

    Where is this “heaven” jack? Demonstrate that such a place exists. What? You can’t? Gee, who’d a thought? Oh wait…It’s in a book! An ancient book! So it must be true no matter how stupid and ridiculous! LOL I think it’s up the street from Hogwarts!

    • kat

      funny how you call believers fools. Point a finger, 3 point back. I was just remembering how a few months back I too, thought that way. Until I was completely attacked by the demons. Even have pictures, because I thought I was dealing with aliens or some strange species in the air. Until they got on my/ and in my body. I can assure you that you will become a believer very fast. And pray like you never had before. And I will say one more thing, I pray that you never have to go through it. For the pain and suffering of them is awful. And you could not pay me to ever choose hell over heaven. Not ever!!! I can see the darn things permanently now. And they are on every one! It’s not fun going from not knowing to knowing. But I thank god daily because I was just heading somewhere I never wanted to go in the back of my mind. I hope my story helps if only one of you. God is VERY real and so are demons! May you be blessed with the knowledge.

      • pud

        Yeah…no mental illness with you..whoa! Get professional help ASAP!

      • Are you hallucinating? There is zero empirical evidence for the existence of literal demons, This is ancient biblical mythology meant to describe the existence of evil. As for taking pictures of demons attached to your body, I think it is a tall story. Maybe, you should visit a mental health professional and seek their advice.

        • kat

          I never said I had a picture of them on my body. I said I had pictures and video of them in the air. I don’t hallucinate. And if you read your bible you will read that Jesus removed demons more than any other miracle. Its the gift of spiritual discernment. Have a blessed day.

          • NathansFather

            kat it is really impossible to argue with the demon possessed like our resident PUD/D|ck. We are forbidden to carry on dialogue with demons. Poor PUD the he/she is dominated by it.

          • kat

            amen. Although holy spirit has me engaging with them by telling them to remove themselves and by trying to help them(humans becoming enlightened, free will is theirs. Love is ours. thank you for your kindness.

          • NathansFather

            You are quite welcome! I will pray for you and pray for me also.
            We know the amazing power of prayer!
            Praise the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit!

          • Forget all this demon stuff. It’s nonsense. Why don’t you argue from what you claim your theology is? Love God. Love others etc. All this “demon” stuff makes you look silly.

          • NathansFather

            God has given you a very challenging gift! You will be rewarded double someday.
            I can spot demoniacs in people’s visage and behaviors like our wiccan madam secretary and of course that mass murderer in Vegas.

            All believers can discern the Truth from lies as the people who lie indeed belong to their father. As Jesus says there is no truth in them. Their fruit is stinking rotten to the core.

            Someone I guess I blocked came up with why do you focus on demons? I don’t someone asked me about them and I supplied a link to Bible Study Tools long, long list of Scriptures pertaining to them.

            I am very positive person actually.
            I live in joy because I know my real home is in Heaven.
            Humility is the key.

            I just hope that people finally wake up there is indeed a lucifer that is really running and flying amok right now. If they understand there is a lucifer they will seek Jesus Iesous Y’shua for salvation and protection. One must build the case first for the need for salvation. Because we all have fallen short of the GLORY of God. We all deserve to go to Hell if we do not repent and follow The Way. It is a free gift of grace and nothing we have done to earn it. A gift to us bought at a very high price as GOD the Son placed Himself on The Cross to save us from the wrath of GOD. Agape love so complete and perfect!

            My theology is simple:
            1. Love God
            2. Love others
            3. self last

          • You really need to see a psychiatrist.

          • Really, a “picture of them in the air” ? A very unlikely story. You know that you are not supposed to bear false witness.

      • NathansFather

        Amen. Wow imagine seeing the demons. I have seen demoniac invaded people… take the visage of the wiccan madam secretary. Check out those eyes and the coughing jags. She is a high priestess of lucifer.

        • kat

          yes. Holy spirit made sure to reafirm my thoughts regarding this. Thanks for your kindness.

          • NathansFather

            kat I am so glad you were saved from their attack . My pride almost got me.

            I cannot live each day without reading the Word. Our Border Collie Mabel insists I wake up about 4 AM. I have my “prayer closet” time with her laying at my side on our 3 section, 2 recliner sofa 🙂 My beloved finally wakes up about 7 or 8 AM.

            LIFE IS GOOD when you are in Jesus Iesous Y’shua’s hand. 🙂

        • Really? If you’re seeing demons, you probably need to visit a mental health professional. Your husband must be worried about you.

      • “completely attacked by demons”. Are you sure you don’t need to see a qualified psychiatrist to assess the state of your mental well-being? Compassion, healing mercy and loving kindness are what heals humans, not trying to get rid of non existent demons. You seem to be delusional if you think that you can see demons. It may be a sign of your mental unwellness,

  • pud

    Even though the concept of a “heaven” is made up nonsense, the real question simpletons like you should be asking is …who would want to go to this mythical “heaven”? Tell us simple jack, what will you do there for the first couple of trillion years?

    • JRene

      They will spend eternity worshiping the God that desperately needs us to believe in him or he will punish us for eternity. None of it makes any sense.

      • Martin Hutchison

        Correct. But these are the words of men, not God. And I don’t recall Jesus calling on people to kiss anyone’s butt, certainly not his.

        • JRene

          Is it not part of your Christian doctrine that “believers” will spend eternity in heaven, worshipping God (kissing butt), and if you don’t believe (kissing butt) you burn for eternity instead? Does this belief not sound a bit odd to you, and at the very least, quite juvenile coming from an Almighty?

          • NathansFather

            NOPE.

        • No, just his feet.

          “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

          “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.”

          “Everyone therefore who acknowledges me before others, I also will acknowledge before my Father in heaven; but whoever denies me before others, I also will deny before my Father in heaven.”

          By his words, Jesus was one of the most narcissistic religious gurus of all time.

          • NathansFather

            And is GOD. Read about Him in Job 38-42.

          • Well, I’ve already read Job. And I already knew that God is depicted as a jealous narcissist.

  • No one knows what happens after we die. No one knows whether there is a heaven or not. You Evangelical pastors are locked into a system that you must profess belief in heaven and hell (whether you really believe this material or not) or lose your job. Members of evangelical churches are pressurised into believing in these concepts (even though they willingly accept them to enter the system) or they will lose their church memberships or their positions in their church hierarchies. Once they are locked into the system, they are likely to lose all their friends if they change their beliefs, such is the pressure applied in most evangelical churches. There is little freedom of thought. How can such people who apply this pressure be good people? Can they be in heaven, if heaven exists? What use is the “blood of Christ” and “being saved” if such evil people who apply church pressure can count themselves among the “saved”?

    • pud

      All cults are the same. The christian death cult is nothing but wish thinking based upon fear, guilt and shame. “heaven” “exists” like unicorns “exist”

      “No matter how irrefutable the evidence is, most people reject anything which contradicts their deeply entrenched false beliefs”

      • These people think that people like Abraham, Moses and Joshua are heroes of faith. Abraham is commanded by god to kill his son by offering him up as a “burnt offering”. Moses thinks that God, the genocide general, is right to command the slaughter of little babies and Joshua the genocide captain carries out god’s barbaric command to slaughter the Canaanites and burn these cities to the ground. The Psalmist (of ‘holy writ’) wants someone to dash the Babylonian “little ones” against a rock. These evil people are supposedly going to be in “heaven”. If there is a ‘heaven’, we better not meet these evil characters who might slaughter us. Where is compassion, healing-mercy and loving kindness? It is totally lacking.

        These conservative evangelicals are deeply entrenched in their beliefs, but some escape their Fundamentalism and we can only hope that some of the Fundamentalist readers of this blog will escape and choose a more compassionate way.

        • pud

          Their hero “paul” was an admitted murderer who had psychotic visions…nuff said

        • Martin Hutchison

          Keep in mind, the Old Testament came from Jews, whom Jesus exposed as corrupt, lying sacks of crap. Christians should focus on the New Testament, and in particular, the quotes of Jesus, not the stories about him. Describing the Bible as the “Infallible word of God” has always been a massive mistake, and has kept many people from Christ. Men write for their own reasons, not all honest, and not all accurate.

          • Why accept the red letters, if you don’t accept the OT or the acts described? What makes the red letters inspired?

            Lest you forget, it’s in the words of Jesus that we get the very first intimations of hell (a concept that didn’t exist in the OT). However awful OT violence descriptions are, they’ve got nothing on the eternal torture Jesus introduced to theology.

          • Martin Hutchison

            The OT was written, edited and passed on by Jews. Jesus found the Jewish religion and society corrupt. I take him at his word (and what I see now from mainstream Jewish acceptance of Soros and everything vile today). If I do that, then I must question what they have written, particularly since little of it makes sense. The whole Abraham/Issac thing? Biggest crock I ever heard. And “God” that cares so much about loyalty that he tests someone to see if he will kill his child is a sick dude. Ditto with his fixation on circumcision. That came from a sick Jewish mind, not from any God worth the name.

          • Oh, I see. You take Jesus, a Jewish rabbi, at what you suppose to be his word, though it was recorded generations later by Greek Christians in a completely different language.

            … and meanwhile revel in anti-Jewish racism …

          • Marvin Reese

            TheGod of the NT is the same God as the OT

          • Martin Hutchison

            God is God, but who wrote what and why are two or more different groups and agendas.

      • Martin Hutchison

        Don’t over generalize. The fact is that living one’s life from a “what would Jesus do” perspective is not going to cause harm. Unless you think Jesus came to you in a dream and told you to kill someone, as God is described as doing in the old testament-may I add that was written by the Jews that Jesus exposed as dishonest and corrupt.

        • pud

          WWJD? Like healing lepers but not curing leprosy? Telling people to forsake their family and follow only him? Endorsing slavery? Ranting about demons?

          1. There was no jesus
          2. If there was he was a lunatic

          • Martin Hutchison

            I think his quotes are better than the stories about him. I think it was Paul who set out to build a religion around him, and that became the Catholic Church, one of the foulest organizations out there, not counting communists.

          • Which quotes would that be?

            “So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

            “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels”

            “Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”

          • NathansFather

            That would be the Alpha and Omega

            “Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”

            He created all souls. He has the PERFECT RIGHT to destroy them.

          • So if you create something you have the “perfect right” to destroy it? By that logic, parents have a “perfect right” to kill their children.

            Stating nonsense doesn’t make it less nonsensical.

          • There is no such thing as a “soul”. Psyche means life, not soul as an entity humans are supposed to have.

          • NathansFather

            Wrongo again. You are speaking of Saint Peter who would NOT be amused the Roman Catholic Church claimed he was their first Pope.

          • Martin Hutchison

            Thanks for the clarification.

          • NathansFather

            You are quite welcome.

            The Catholic Church is in grave error choosing “Saints” only GOD can make “Saints” (capital S) We are earth that follow The Way are called saints (lowercase -even tho it makes more than a few of us nervous with that term) but God says we are saints so that is what we are. We are part of the many membered body. The communion of saints who will have life-everlasting when we die.

            The last named saint to Saint is Saint Polycarp “angel” (lowercase a) Bishop of Smyrna chosen by the Alpha and Omega in the Book of Revelation. I found my mentor Berit looking him up. His story is amazing! WOW! Gives a person chills just how brave he was. He “stood and was the man” Christ Jesus would have him be.

            We need not (S)aints to pray to or Mary, we have direct access to GOD the Father in the Name of the Son.

            Look for ” Saint Polycarp ”
            https://www.duckduckgo.com

            Have a blessed day!

          • NathansFather

            Had to repost sorry. Too long (got combined with an answer to someone else sigh…

            The Catholic Church is in grave error choosing “Saints” only GOD can make “Saints” (capital S) We are earth that follow The Way are called saints (lowercase -even tho it makes more than a few of us nervous with that term) but God says we are saints so
            that is what we are. We are part of the many membered body. The communion of saints who will have life-everlasting when we die.

            The last named saint to Saint is Saint Polycarp “angel” (lowercase a)
            Bishop of Smyrna chosen by the Alpha and Omega in the Book of
            Revelation. I found my mentor Berit looking him up. His story is
            amazing! WOW! Gives a person chills just how brave he was. He “stood
            and was the man” Christ Jesus would have him be.

            We need not (S)aints to pray to or Mary, we have direct access to GOD the Father in the Name of the Son.

            Look for ” Saint Polycarp ”
            https://www.duckduckgo.com

            Have a blessed day!

          • Marvin Reese

            There is more historical documents on the life of Jesus,than any other historical figure in the world

          • pud

            LOL! Cite just one! Try. Lunatic

          • Cartwright

            The number of historical documents written about Jesus at the time he was alive or even after he was alive by people who had actually met him?

            Zero.

            Paul doesn’t count; he only saw Jesus in a “vision”. The gospel writers don’t count, their accounts are conflicting plagiarizations of each other dating long after Paul. Peter and James don’t count, the vast majority of scholars consider the epistles of Peter and James (not to mention several of Paul’s) as pseudepigraphal.

          • NathansFather

            Wrong O! Do you not know of the historic works of Josephus? And that is just a start. Read the archaeological links I posted.

          • Cartwright

            Yes, I am familiar with Josephus. He was born in AD 37, after Jesus was dead and gone. (And most scholars suspect that his few references to Jesus are interpolations added by later Christian scribes). So you are the one who is “Wrong O”!

          • NathansFather

            So true. See the links I posted to the attention of Beau. Those are just for starters. Historic, Scientific, and Archaeology proofs of not only the human existence of Jesus but also his complete divinity as GOD the Son, I AM. His First Advent He was fully man and full GOD. His Second Advent is FULLY GOD. Look out you unbelievers still on earth when he comes you will be crispy critters with just one shout of the Alpha and Omega.

    • Jack Wellman

      So if you don’t know, then that means its possible. Besides, when you do finally know, it will be too late. Jesus already proved that there is life after death.

      • Brian K

        So that’s the big cosmic joke of life? Once you have enough information to make an informed decision, it’s too late, let the flesh-singeing begin?

      • pud

        You clearly have NO idea what the meaning of the word “proof” is. A story book fable is NOT PROOF! Grow up

      • JRene

        Why does an all-knowing, all-powerful God *need* me to believe in him in order to let me into heaven? Why do I (or anyone) deserve infinite torture for a finite “crime”?

        • Iain Lovejoy

          That is rather a good point, which Jack’s theology struggles to answer. The fundamentalist notion of a sort of theological pop quiz as the entrance exam to heaven us relatively new on the scene (I.e. a few centuries!): the original idea was that it was man who had rejected God, not the other way round, and faithfully following Jesus enabled us to bring ourselves to stop fighting and accept him. It is, in this view, not a question of being punished for a “crime” but of suffering and dying because we reject the God our nature requires to survive.
          (Equal nonsense, I’m sure, but less horrible.)

          • No, there is nothing “original” about the notion you just described. Look at every description of hell in the New Testament. God (and in Revelations, Jesus) is the judge that condemns humans to eternal suffering.

          • Iain Lovejoy

            What I have described (very briefly) is the patristic theory of atonement which was the principle understanding of the church until the 11th Century when it was largely replaced by the “satisfaction” theory of atonement in the Western church. It remains the view if the eastern Orthodox church.
            The idea that God sends people to hell purely depending on whether they hold the correct theological beliefs has its origins in the Protestant Reformation.

          • Yes, the patristic theory of atonement is an interpretation that arose in the 3rd century with figures such as Origen, and continued in the work of Augustine. One can only grant this theory long life, however, if you paint it with a very broad brush and ignore huge differences such as the the extreme contrast between Origen’s and Augustine’s conception of hell.

            It’s certainly old; but “original”? No.

            “I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that can do nothing more. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!”

          • Iain Lovejoy

            Not “hell” but “Gehenna” which is a strictly temporary place of punishment: Jewish thought has it as lasting no more than 12 months (though I suspect the Rabbinic detail would be anachronistic). What is supposed to happen to you afterwards is unclear – most people are said to be then cured / properly punished for their sin and off they go to paradise, though some seem to get something more permanent. The idea of Gehenna being the punishment for nonbelief, as opposed to sin, is entirely post-Biblical.
            The patristic theory of the atonement is certainly the original theory of atonement, being the first coherent and worked out one. You are right that it isn’t laid out in the Bible itself, but subsequently derived.

          • Ah, yes, you’re referring to the Mishnah commentary on Gehenna redacted in the third century AD, about the same time that Origen was devising his theology. Of course scholars differ widely on whether such oral traditions can be uniformly traced back to the first century, and thus whether Jesus would have had the same understanding of Gehenna as some of the conflicting rabbinic notions of Gehenna. Other scholars note the “eternal fire” references in NT chapters such as Matthew 18 and 25, and the eternal tortures referenced in the Maccabees (that predate Christ), when citing afterlife punishments as understood in the first century.

            You see, despite your assurances, scholars are not at all agreed on the nature of afterlife punishment as portrayed in the gospels (if indeed the gospels are even consistent with each other on the matter). But whether it is eternal or lasts only a year, it is clearly a horrific punishment considering Gehenna’s constant association with fire and considering that the gospel of Matthew sees Gehenna as worse than plucking out your eye, or chopping off your hand, or death.

            So in either case, whether this punishment is eternal or finite, God seems to be something of a monstrous parent, torturing humans He created.

            And, no, you can say that the patristic theory of atonement is “certainly the original”, but you would certainly be wrong. Atonement theology is far more ancient than Origen, by centuries if not millennia, practiced not only by the ancient Hebrews but by other middle eastern religious cultures as well, usually through the medium of the blood sacrifice. And it is in relation to blood sacrifice that the apostle Paul proposed the earliest atonement theology in Christianity (centuries before Origen):

            Romans 3:21-26

            “But now, apart from law, the righteousness of God has been disclosed, and is attested by the law and the prophets, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a sacrifice of ATONEMENT by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Jesus.”

            Of course, it’s hard to say whether Paul’s atonement ideology (“for all who believe”) squares with the point of view in Matthew 25, in which one’s inheritance of the kingdom seems to be based on one’s propensity to feed the hungry, quench the thirsty, clothe the naked, welcome the stranger, and visit the sick and imprisoned. But then, the New Testament was never particularly consistent.

          • Iain Lovejoy

            In the section in Paul you quote what is “for all who believe” has nothing to do with qualifications for heaven or the afterlife: Paul is arguing that the Christian faith is open to “all who believe” without the distinction between Jew and non-Jew that he is arguing against here. He is saying you don’t have to be Jewish to be Christian, only trust in Christ, not that nonbelievers go to hell. The passage says nothing about nonbelievers or hell or the afterlife at all.
            The phrase you render as “sacrifice of ATONEMENT” is a translation of the Greek “hilasterion”, which in normal Greek meant “reconciling gift” or “peace offering” (and according to the various commentaries I have read was never used for blood sacrifices). The meaning in context is perpetually disputed but if given its ordinary meaning of “peace offering” the passage is completely consistent with the patristic atonement theory that Christ was a gift sent by God to man to reconcile man to God rather than the other way round.
            (BTW Origen was a universalist with some ideas about atonement and salvation which were very much outlying and eventually declared heresy.)

          • Oh, I am quite aware that the Romans passage does not mention qualifications for heaven or hell. Paul seems less obsessed with eternal fire and Gehenna than the Jesus portrayed in the gospels.

            The english word “atonement” only dates to the sixteenth century AD. The Greek word “hilasterion”, which I and most translational scholars render “atonement”, is actually found far more often in Jewish Greek writings such as Josephus and the Septuagint than it is found in (what was your word?) “normal” Greek writings. When it is used in nonJewish Greek writings, it refers to an offering to a god, such as it’s use by Dio Chrysostom in the 1st century to refer to the Trojan Horse. But a source more likely known to Paul is 4 Maccabees 17, which uses the term in much the same way that Paul does, relating it to the death of martyrs as a blood sacrifice. Also known to Paul would have been it’s use in the Septuagint to refer to the cover of the Ark of the Covenant on which the blood of a sacrificial bull was sprinkled by the high priest as an atonement for Israel. The hebrew word “kapporet”, used for this sacrificial Ark cover and translated “hilasterion” in the Septuagint, is related to the word for atonement (or expiation/cover for sins) used in the Jewish observance of Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement).

            Paul clearly relates the death of Jesus to the blood sacrifices sprinkled on the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament for the atonement of israel.

            I am aware that Origen was a universalist of sorts. That’s why I referred to the extreme contrast between his and Augustine’s conception of hell.

          • NathansFather

            Iain you are most wise. You must have been studying for years and years. I read all of your posts with great pleasure and usually I am nodding my head yes!

          • Iain Lovejoy

            Thanks.

          • NathansFather

            Keep up the thoughtful posts. Jack learns from you too. Iron sharpens Iron.

          • NathansFather

            There was not “hell” until Jesus Iesous Y’shua rose. After His crucifixion He went to Paradise of the land of the dead and brought up the Old Testament saints and prophets. They were seen after GOD the son resurrected to take the Mercy and Judgment Throne. They were walking the streets of Jerusalem and spooked out the Sanhedrin influenced people.

            As Jesus explained in the Parable of the Rich Man and the Beggar Lazarus. The Rich Man was lodged on left side of the Gulf and the Beggar in the Bosom of Abraham.

            When I recite the Apostles Creed I use the proper term Hades the land of the dead. Those on the left who were Spiritually Dead and on the Right in Paradise sleeping in Abraham’s Bosom.

        • Doug Barron

          Why do you deserve to go to heaven?

          • JRene

            You have no evidence of such a place. But I do know that no human deserves an eternity of burning. Would you do that to your child?

          • Doug Barron

            The US practices child burning today in a modern form of Moloch worship. It is called abortion. The child does not have any choice in the matter.
            Abba has given me and you a choice in where we will spend eternity. Completely your choice. If you choose to be apart from Him; He will grant your request.

          • JRene

            Nice non-reply.

          • Actually, it’s not your choice if scripture is your guide. According to every New Testament depiction of hell, God the father or Jesus is the judge, sending humans to fiery damnation.

            Not exactly fatherly behavior. I have children; there isn’t anything they could do that would cause me to stop loving them, much less condemn them to torture or annihilation.

          • Doug Barron

            Father does not send you to eternal seperation; you choose that for yourself. He gives you your wish, as always. If you choose Him, that shall be so. If you choose to not be with Him, that shall be so. You are created eternal. Father does not un-create what He creates. You have to exist in eternity somewhere. That is fair and true. Where you spend eternity is truly your choice!
            By the way; hell was not created for man; hell was created for satan and the angels that followed satan in rebellion. Elohim has to put them somewhere..they do not want to be with Him!
            I wonder: is hell more a fire and brimstone? Or worse; eternal seperation from the one that created me? I can get used to fire. I have no idea what total seperation from my Father, Creator is like. I don’t want to know.

          • I’d be interested what scriptures you cite to support the silly notion that anyone “chooses” hell.

            In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man begs to be spared the agony of the flames. Needless to say, he doesn’t get what he wishes for.

            Whoever God created hell for, he seems to have no qualms about throwing humans in.

            “I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that can do nothing more. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!”

            Hell is not a choice. It is a make-believe “punishment” that only an unjust monster of a God would be capable of.

          • NathansFather

            Just what if we are right? What do you have to lose? What if you are wrong? You will be in a pitted chamber with all of the others who chose to be there. Not choosing is also a choice. Right now you spit on the One who created you. Such a miserable person you are. May God the Father have pity on you. Will you hear His call and turn? Or will you chance 1000 yrs in chains and then being thrown in the lake of fire?
            You are NOT good and neither am I.
            Any good that is done is through Jesus Iesous Y’shua alone.
            Even your best intentional acts are as dross when you choose to make yourself a little god.
            Worthless!
            The only difference between you and I is I choose to believe in I AM, the Creator of all that there is and ever shall be.
            I am a slave to the One who created me and willingly placed Himself on The Cross so that I may have eternal life with Him in Paradise.
            Choose wisely.
            A sinner saved by love, mercy, and grace of I AM alone.
            Not of my doing but of His doing for me on The Cross.
            He loved me before I was even conceived.

          • Belief as a wager? Really?

            One doesn’t “choose” to believe. One either believes something to be the truth, or one doesn’t. You might have good evidence one way or the other that influences, but you can’t just force yourself to believe something on the off-chance that you’ll be rewarded for it. I doubt that such a belief on a wager would be particularly sincere.

            And what if you’re wrong? What if there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet? Then you are the one destined for hell.

            What if you ignore the word of the Bhagavad Gita, and are reincarnated as a worm?

            Do you see how silly such wager arguments are?

          • NathansFather

            Just pointing out you are literally playing with fire.
            I am about to post some proofs IF you are interested in reading them.
            If not it lets us know you are afraid to find out the truth.

          • Proofs of what? God? Hell? Your particular version of these superstitions?

            Playing with fire, huh? That’s some God you’ve got there; spending an eternity torturing those who don’t believe in him. It frankly sounds like you worship the most horrific monster the human imagination has ever come up with.

          • NathansFather

            No eventually the evil people inhabited by demons will be thrown in the lake of fire with satan and his fallen angels. Crispy critters who can be remembered no more. Thank you GOD! No more liars, thieves, and murderers like the mass shooting killer in Vegas. You are headed his way you know. Do you really want to be in that lodging with him? WOW!

          • Yeah, wow is right! Your God throws people into a lake of fire, and you seem to find that humorous. So, I’ve never murdered or raped or stolen from anyone. Surely, I won’t become a “Crispy Critter” just for failing to believe something?

            Or is your God a monster?

          • NathansFather

            You seem not to be able to read with comprehension.

            I must mark and block you now for this remarks and others. Sorry.
            You blaspheme my Lord. That is a step too far. Sorry you are not offending me you are offending Him.

            I will pray for you bully you are supernaturally confronted with the Truth as I
            am required by my Lord and Savior Jesus Iesous Y’shua. Then I will dust my
            sandals as I turn away. I truly pity your delusion.

            Read this if you are capable. It is written by my dear friend, brother and
            mentor.
            Thank you for blessing me and giving me the opportunity to post about My Lord
            and Savior once again 😉

            The Christian Crier: Top 7 Bible Verses About Bullying And Dealing With Bullies
            by Pastor Jack Wellman, Patheos and Telling Ministries, my
            brother in Christ, mentor, and Biblical Christian man.
            http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2016/05/23/top-7-bible-verses-about-bullying-and-dealing-with-bullies/

            Referenced Scripture – Primary Verses:
            Luke 6:27-28
            Romans 12:18-19
            Psalm 138:7
            Ephesians 6:12
            Leviticus 19:18
            Romans 12:20-21

          • Yes, this is how you argue, when your argument amounts to nothing. Just accuse the other person of “blasphemy”, and walk away. I see completely through that gimmick.

            It’s amusing to me that you accuse me of harassment and attack, when you are the one accusing me and others of going to hell. I have not bullied, though that accusation seems to make you feel better. I’ve simply told the truth.

          • NathansFather

            Part 8 [These two articles sent our demoniac PUD the D|ck on a real filthy rant on a Christian Crier]

            Evidence for God
            Atheists have Proven God Does Not Exist. Right?
            http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/nogod.html

            Answers for Atheists and Agnostics
            http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/answers.html

            Welllll Beau are you ready to say “uncle” to the Great GOD ALMIGHTY yet?
            Will you hear His call?
            Took me to my early 50s to get a supernatural sledge hammer from I AM. The three knocks on my doorfacing with no one there… the message clearly was …. wake up stoooopid human! I have been calling you since you were born.
            Luke 12:36
            Luke 13:25
            Acts 12:13
            Revelation 3:20

          • With idiotic websites like this, you’re only going to create more atheists! Can’t wait to share these links!

          • NathansFather

            Go right ahead… go to the Atheist Forum on Patheos where you belong. The evil in you just won’t stop your excessive-complusive mental illness.

            Have you no control man?

            Or have you totally relinquished all control to lucifer? I pray you haven’t.

            Your exiting here would at least say you haven’t. Staying here we must assume you’re digging your grave even deeper. Your own words will convict you.

            You are bordering on personal harassment. Now over the line. I have been very patient with you and spent hours and hours answering your misguided comments. I have no more time for you. Thank you for blessing me. I will pray you will have a supernatural confrontation.

            Marked and blocked.

            Here are the first two to share. Enjoy!

            Evidence for God
            Atheists have Proven God Does Not Exist. Right?
            http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/nogod.html

            Answers for Atheists and Agnostics
            http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/answers.html

          • Sorry, but if you think tossing out a few childish apologetic websites qualifies as research, you’re just fooling yourself.

            And if you equate this comment exchange as “personal harassment”, you are truly self-deluded. You’re an anonymous commenter! I couldn’t personally harass you, even if I wanted to!

          • NathansFather

            Crud the spam bot got me again on 2a. RePost!

            This time let’s see if the link only comes through.
            I really would like for you to see this Beau it answers one of your back and forths with Monty.

            1. Question: “Is Jesus a myth? Is Jesus just a copy of the pagan gods of other ancient religions?”
            https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-myth.html

            2. The Ultimate Proof of Christianity (The Resurrection of Jesus)
            by Henry M. Morris, Ph.D.
            http://www.icr.org/article/ultimate-proof-christianity-the-resurrection-jesus/
            Download The Ultimate Proof of Christianity (The Resurrection of Jesus) PDF

          • Oh that’s a amusing. The proof of Christianity is the resurrection. That’s like saying that the proof of hinduism is reincarnation.

          • pud

            “Father”….you’re sick

          • NathansFather

            Doug you are doing so well fending off these vulture PUDskyites 🙂

          • Myles

            When you get pregnant then your opinion on abortion becomes important, to you. Until then, keep your mind on your own business and leave women’s health issues to women.

          • NathansFather

            Great answer once again! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (to eternity 🙂

      • It’s possible doesn’t mean it’s highly probable. Jesus has not proved that there is life after death. The resurrection story is largely mythical.

        • Rich

          I would say it is entirely “mythical.”

      • Well, if you’re merely entertaining possibilities, then it’s possible that there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet. There. Now you’re the one destined for eternal hell.

        Citing an ancient legend about Jesus as proof of life after death makes about as much sense as citing Joseph Smith as proof of ancient Jews sailing to America.

        • NathansFather

          Joseph Smith was a booted out free mason. Even for them the deists luciferians he was too radical. The angel you see atop the Mormon Temple in Salt Lake City is lucifer. The poor average Joe Mormon on the street has no idea that their leaders are evil.

          • Wow. You see Satan everywhere.

          • NathansFather

            I see GOD everywhere. I see the result of the pollution of lucifer on earth by observing his children of liars, thieves, and murderers. They are called the illuminati. lucifer is referred to as the false angel of light (lumin). Yes, these demented demon infested humans are out there… usually in positions of power and mammon loving circles.
            Here are two that directly worship lucifer. Luciferians. See the first page dedication and the Prologue.
            Saul Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals
            http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/communism/alinsky.htm

          • Ah, a conspiracy theorist as well.

          • How can a stature be Lucifer which you acknowledge is, in your mind, an invisible being?

          • NathansFather

            Representation John of what the angel of darkness seemed to suggest was for the statue maker. Those poor average Joe Mormons have been soooo mislead. What a horrific man Joseph Smith must have been. His successors perhaps even worse. Look how many people they have betrayed.

      • Martin Hutchison

        I am on the Christian culture, morality side, but there is no “proof”. There is faith. What we know is Jesus lived and died as told, this is confirmed by Roman history.

        • Not exactly. Tacitus (who was born in 55AD long after Jesus was gone) mentions the crucifixion of “Christus” when describing Christianity, which is sort of a vague confirmation that Jesus was crucified. That’s about it, as far as “Roman history” goes.

          I’m not a mythicist, I think the Christian documentation by itself (the New Testament) is pretty good evidence that a rabbi named Yeshua lived and died. However, the “as told” part of your equation is doubtful, given the many contradictions within the gospels themselves.

          It’s likely that he lived and died. It’s also likely that the gospels are also filled with legendary material, invented after his death.

          • Martin Hutchison

            To some extent, I agree. Paul said “I will make a religion for all men”. Put that in front of a marketing exec today and, well, you could get Scientology.

          • Where does Paul say that?

        • Myles

          jesusneverexisted.com

          • NathansFather

            See all the proof posts to Beau.

    • Rich

      Power-Control-Wealth: The honest trilogy associated with religion.

      • Martin Hutchison

        Organized religion.

      • NathansFather

        The triad lust of the pretender satan the father of liars, thieves, and murderers.
        Organization of the Iluminati setting up the anti dominion.

        • “The Iluminati”. You must be a crazy Fundamentalist, though you claim not to be one. You say you are a Berean, not a Fundamentalist. Well, if this is what Bereans believe, they belong to a subset of Fundamentalists who are at the extreme end of the Fundamentalist spectrum.

  • bereanresearcher

    Jack,

    We (VCPC) had a very interesting sermon (follows the liturgical calendar) this past Sunday on a related topic. I sent it to you today along with 2 followups. on
    Matthew 20:1-16

    Full Berean Study > Sunday September 25 > Matthew 20:1-18 ” … Last First, First Last.. ” Is the fair? What is left out of the Modern Versions?

    The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard (World) – – Bible Study Tools
    King James Version (KJV) for original lexicon [See:KJV Verse 16]

    Matthew 20:1-16 KJV

    The Parable of Laborers in the Vineyard

    Verses 15 and 16
    15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own*? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
    16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
    [This could apply to the “nominal christians” post modern apostates.]

    [ I discovered to my dismay that NIV, ESV, and NASB left this out: “for many be called, but few chosen.”]
    Something to think about for sure.

    From John Gill’s Bible Expository:
    Matthew 20:16

    So the last shall be first, and the first last
    As he had asserted in ( Matthew 19:30 ) and which is clearly illustrated by this parable, as it may be applied to Jews or Gentiles, or to *** nominal and real Christians:

    for many be called;
    *** externally, under the ministration of the Gospel, as the Jews in general were, by Christ and his apostles; but few chosen; ***

    in Christ from all eternity,
    both to grace and glory; and in consequence, and as an evidence of it, but few among the Jews; as also in the Gentile world, comparatively speaking: and even but a few of those that are outwardly called, are inwardly and effectually called by the powerful grace of God, out of darkness into marvelous light, into the grace and liberty of the Gospel, into communion with Christ, and to the obtaining his kingdom and glory, according to the eternal purpose of God.

    Have a great week Jack.. Always praying for your well being. 🙂

    BR

    • pud

      LOL

    • Iain Lovejoy

      “Many are called but few are chosen” appears twice in the Bible, in Matthew 20 and Matthew 22. In both cases it is immediately after a parable in which an invitation is given to one group of people, but this is then extended to a much wider group not previously invited (in Matthew 22 indeed in substitution for the original group).
      The conventional interpretation put on it is that it means a whole load of people will be called, but of them only a select view will be actually invited as guests. If this were right it would be the direct opposite of what Jesus just said in the immediately preceding parables, thus rendering them nonsense.
      It seems to me it has to mean “many are called whilst the chosen are few” in order to match the parables, and refer to God opening up his invitation in Jesus to everybody, not just a narrow elite of chosen people as it was before. Nothing else makes sense.

      • Monty

        I have a slightly different take on this, courtesy of a man with with remarkable insight who is now with the Lord. He believed that the “chosen” were those who chose to respond to the call. Lord Jesus said that the way to life is narrow and few find it. The path to destruction is broad. He advised his listeners to seek the narrow way. It is surely the more difficult way in many respects but it is just as surely the most blessed.

      • Doug Barron

        Those called are those that chose. I can call many to vote, but the responders are those called, and chosen, because they answered that call. Each person’s free will to choose.

        • Iain Lovejoy

          How does that relate to the parables that the phrase is supposed to be a summary of?

        • NathansFather

          Part 1
          Simple explanation. Works for me too Doug. I like the Mordecai dialogue with Queen Esther. See the multipart. I so wish there was not a limit to the comment boxes on characters allowed. This will flow much nicer in one long post so bear with me please.

        • NathansFather

          [I did the following study for my private distribution list of blood kin, adopted brothers and sisters, and 4 Pastors a while back. I do studies such as this each day.]

          Part 2 [John 17 for us believers today as well as anyone else who did not see Jesus upon the occasion of His First Advent.]

          The High Priestly Prayer
          John 17:20-26 (NASV) Bible Gateway

          20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; (A)even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, (B)so that the world may [a]believe that (C)You sent Me.

          Their Future Glory

          22 The (D)glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 (E)I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected [b]in unity, so that the world may [c]know that (F)You sent Me, and (G)loved them, even as You have loved Me. 24 Father, I desire that (H)they also, whom You have given Me, (I)be with Me where I am, so that they may see My (J)glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before (K)the foundation of the world.

          25 “O (L)righteous Father, [d]although (M)the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that (N)You sent Me; 26 and (O)I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that (P)the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

          [Cross References from Bible Gateway John 17:20-26 next Part 3]

          Compare this to the Old Testament Event
          Consider what Mordecai asks Esther…
          “… and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this? “
          What does Queen Esther respond?
          “…Then I will go to the king, though it is against the law, … (J)and if I perish, I perish
          WOW! Now that IS unshakable faith! Mordecai and Esther believed I AM.
          They heard His call and responded in faith.

          [Esther verses Part 4]

        • NathansFather

          Part 3 [Cross References for John 17:20-26]

          Footnotes:
          John 17:21 Gr tense indicates continually believe
          John 17:23 Lit into one
          John 17:23 Gr tense indicates continually know
          John 17:25 Lit even the world

          Cross references:
          John 17:21 : John 10:38; 17:11, 23
          John 17:21 : John 17:8
          John 17:21 : John 3:17; 17:3, 8, 18, 23, 25
          John 17:22 : John 1:14; 17:24
          John 17:23 : John 10:38; 17:11, 21
          John 17:23 : John 3:17; 17:3, 8, 18, 21, 25
          John 17:23 : John 16:27
          John 17:24 : John 17:2
          John 17:24 : John 12:26
          John 17:24 : John 1:14; 17:22
          John 17:24 : Matt 25:34; John 17:5
          John 17:25 : John 17:11; 1 John 1:9
          John 17:25 : John 7:29; 15:21
          John 17:25 : John 3:17; 17:3, 8, 18, 21, 23
          John 17:26 : John 17:6
          John 17:26 : John 15:9

          [Part 4 Queen Esther Verses]

        • NathansFather

          Part 5 [Queen Esther Cross References]
          Esther 4 English Standard Version (ESV) – Bible Study Tools – In Context

          Footnotes:
          Esther 4:8 Or annihilation
          Esther 4:8 Hebrew and seek from before his face
          Esther 4:16 Hebrew if I am destroyed, then I will be destroyed

          Cross references:
          Esther 4:1 : See
          2 Sam. 3:31
          Esther 4:3 : ver. 16; ch. 9:31
          Esther 4:3 : Dan. 9:3; [Isa. 58:5]
          Esther 4:7 : ch. 3:9
          Esther 4:8 : ch. 3:14; 8:13
          Esther 4:11 : ch. 5:1; [ch. 6:4]
          Esther 4:11 : Dan. 2:9
          Esther 4:11 : ch. 5:2; 8:4
          Esther 4:16 : [ch. 5:1]
          Esther 4:16 : [Gen.43:14]

        • NathansFather

          [Part 6 A Modern Day Granny with a punch in the mold of Queen Esther]

          Jack and I admire her so much. In her humility she was chosen to carry the Words to point others to Salvation.
          She is our dear friend, sister, and mentor in Christ.

          I her weakness she is made strong through the exegesis of The Holy Spirit.

          Berit Kjos, Watchman on the Wall and her husband Andy
          Kjos Ministries, Crossroad To. She has been a follower and humbler servant of Our Lord Jesus Iesous Y’shua since 1971.
          You will not find a finer sweet lady. She warriors on!

          http://www.crossroad.to
          For daily reports, click on News
          http://www.crossroad.to/News/1-today.htm

          My Hightower: Seeing the World from His perspective
          “The Lord is… my High Tower and my Refuge.” 2 Samuel 22:2-3
          http://www.crossroad.to/Victory/names/tower.htm

          [Part 7 Berit takes on two *infamous luciferians* head on through the strength of Jesus Iesous Y’shua
          and her unflagging faith. With Him she is more than a conqueror.]

        • NathansFather

          [Part 7 PUDskyites pay attention! This is who you serve and probably don’t know it. Lucifer is sneaky!

          Meet two demoniac infested people. Alinskyites.
          Neither of which can let go of their power trips and love of money.
          The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.
          He is a High Wizard Priest of the vast countrywide coven.
          She is a wiccan high priestess of this same coven.
          They hate one another because they are fighting to sit at the table with their father of liars, thieves, and murderers.
          The High Priest of sorcery had his wiccan assistant turn in the wiccan high priestess’ illegal secretive material to make sure she did not hold the seat he still wants.

          Saul Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals
          http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/communism/alinsky.htm

          Opening page – Dedication

          “Lest we forget at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgment to the very first radical: from all our legends, mythology, and history… the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom — Lucifer.” – Saul ‘Alinsky

          Prologue
          [Book written to make more little god worshippers, the father of liars, thieves, and murderers
          The High Priest and High Priestess have blood of millions and millions of innocents on their hands.]

          “The Revolutionary force today has two targets, moral as well as material. Its young protagonists are one moment reminiscent of the idealistic early Christians, yet they also urge violence and cry, ‘Burn the system down!’ They have no illusions about the system, but plenty of illusions about the way to change our world. It is to this point that I have written this book.”

        • NathansFather

          [Part 6 A Modern Day Granny with a punch in the mold of Queen Esther]

          All kinds of Spiritual Warfare are lodged against her.
          She and her family have been threatened with physical death.
          Who is after her for telling the truth?
          Atheists, Agnostics, Apostates, ALL are Luciferians.

          Berit Kjos Ministries
          Crossroad To
          http://www.crossroad.to

          My theology is: 1. Love God 2. Love others 3. Self last.
          Those who follow Lucifer believe his lies.
          WAKE UP!

      • NathansFather

        The Narrow Gate is Jesus (now the Alpha and Omega) No one enters Heaven (to the right of the Throne) before coming to face Him. Be it the Mercy Seat of the Chosen or the Judgment Seat of the evil.

  • Bei Dawei

    “Going to heaven” reflects modern Christian folk belief, not any of the various biblical views of the afterlife.

    • Jack Wellman

      Paradise is what was then considered heaven as far as the Jews so Abraham’s Bosom is seen as that, but any place where Jesus is at is heaven to me. I am satisfied with being present with the Lord after I am absent from the body.

      • pud

        For how many trillion years lunatic? Doing what? You’re an infantile dysfunctional lunatic

      • NathansFather

        See you there too Jack!

        I look so forward to it! The Third Heaven that is.

        Paradise was the right side of the Gulf called the Bosom of Abraham. When Jesus went down to the land of the dead he brought back with Him all the Old Testament saints and prophets. Those were the visible souls in a one time event walking the streets of Jerusalem when Jesus rose from the dead.

    • Iain Lovejoy

      Jesus told one of the thieves he was crucified with “Today you will be with me on paradise.” This sort of suggests such a place exists for him to go to.

      • pud

        BS…who reported that nonsense? IT’S A MADE UP STORY HELLO?

  • Iain Lovejoy

    It’s good to see a reminder that a key element of having faith in Jesus is endeavouring to follow what he taught, however inept our execution of it, especially with respect to loving our neighbour. Too many people think that its fine to sign up to a theological position statement as afterlife insurance and leave it there instead of cultivating an active and living faith.

    • Jack Wellman

      Well said my friend. Thank you.

    • Mark Mac Donald

      and the biggest reminder to having faith is that faith means believing without evidence. It literally means delusional

      • Marvin Reese

        There is evidence.you can’t see the wind but you can see the
        effects of wind,same with God you can’t see Him but you can see the effects of Him.

        • Mark Mac Donald

          that’s fine now show me evidence for your god. See the difference? I can build an entire arguments with statistics and data and video and I can present a very logical case that would prove the existence of wind. Now, you say can do the same about god. Do so. BUt, you can’t.
          So, keep your child-like analogies to yourself. You are embarrassing

          • NathansFather

            Ahhhh actually you are incorrect. Read all the article links I posted and download the books. IF you bother or just stay on the course in denial like our demonially rpossessed resident PUD|D|CK. Do you really want to become a PUD he/she/it? I sincerely hope not.

          • Mark Mac Donald

            I don’t have to read anything
            You believe on faith. That’ because you don’t have proof. qed

          • NathansFather

            OK go be on your path to PUDsky land…. you are lazy. The proofs are straight forwardly laid out. I will pray for you too that God the Father will confront you like he did me.

          • Mark Mac Donald

            pray for me? lmao, OK I’ll think for you, I guess
            Just imagine, you actually think you have a RELATIONSHIP with a SUPERNATURAL being and this deity MURDERS BABIES. Conservatively, it is estimated he murdered over 5 million people. Satan killed 10….with god’s approval

          • NathansFather

            Ohhhh don’t be as lost as PUDsky please! You are well on your way…
            I will have to mark you and block.
            I will pray for you bully you are supernaturally confronted with the Truth as I am required by my Lord and Savior Jesus Iesous Y’shua. Then I will dust my sandals as I turn away. I truly pity your delusion.
            Read this if you are capable. It is written by my dear friend, brother and mentor.
            Thank you for blessing me and giving me the opportunity to post about My Lord and Savior once again 😉
            The Christian Crier: Top 7 Bible Verses About Bullying And Dealing With Bullies
            by Pastor Jack Wellman, Patheos and Telling Ministries, my brother in Christ, mentor, and Biblical Christian man.
            http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2016/05/23/top-7-bible-

            Primary Verses:
            Luke 6:27-28
            Romans 12:18-19
            Psalm 138:7
            Ephesians 6:12
            Leviticus 19:18
            Romans 12:20-21

          • You’re listening too much to the bullybull. The God of the OT is the chief bully.

        • pud

          No stupid…we can measure the wind, analyze the wind, predict the wind, use the wind….not so much for your made up invisible psychotic “god” thing

    • NathansFather

      Excellent once again Iain! Love your posts. You dig deeply. No growth at all means the conversion never took place.

  • Maltnothops

    Two people behave in overwhelmingly virtuous fashion over their lifetimes. One because he believes in Jesus and the other because she thinks, “what the hell, why not?” And the latter goes to an eternity of torment because….why?

    • Monty

      Easy. One is alive right now. The other is dead in trespass and sin, no matter how “good” their behaviour might be. Would you invite a dead person to your home? Neither does God.

      • Maltnothops

        Two people behave in overwhelmingly dickish fashion over their lifetimes. One because he regularly asks Jesus for forgiveness and the other because she thinks, “what the hell, why not?” And the former goes to an eternity of joy because….why?

        Also, for the record, I can’t think of a single dead person I wouldn’t be happy to invite to my home. Whereas there are lots of live ones who are unwelcome. (Strange argument on your part.)

        • Michael C

          T urd

          • Maltnothops

            Typo on your part. Did you mean turd?

        • NathansFather

          Which reminds me I really need to report you again Mal and block. Have a new email address… We have met before. Sorry but we don’t have time to waste. Life if short on this side of the veil. We still have much to do until we are taken home. I will pray you have a supernatural awaking. Do you really want to be as depraved as PUD/D|CK? I hope not for your sake!

          • Maltnothops

            I had no idea you reported and blocked me before. I haven’t changed my email address but you seem to change your handle every couple of months.

            If you’re only going to pray for me, I don’t think you actually care all that much.

        • Monty

          Jesus came to set people free from the power of sin, not so that they can do what they like and get away with it. Anyone who loves to sin is not born again. Christians do sin and that’s why we need to be forgiven. I’ve seen countless lives transformed by the power of God to set people free. That includes me!

          If you enjoy smelly corpses in your lounge room, that’s a bit weird but that’s your choice. Me, I prefer the living to the dead. God is the same.

          • Maltnothops

            I don’t know why you would think I enjoy smelly corpses. All I said was I would be happy to invite dead people into my home. I don’t expect them to respond to the invitation.

            As for your first para, you spin in circles faster than my dog.

      • NathansFather

        Ah good answer! Oh you will of course get the usual atheist retort. That’s all they have. Lots on their way as the continually deny the truth and become as twisted as our resident harpy infected PUD. Poor human he/she the it makes for rotten to the core. Let us keep praying D|ck will be supernaturally confronted by the Living GOD. Only way to rid someone of demons.

        • Monty

          “The god of this world has blinded the eyes of those who are perishing”. If they would just seek to know the truth then God would reveal Himself to them. I’m not a fan of the word “supernatural” btw. You won’t find it in the bible. God is Spirit. I was bound up in the occult so “supernatural” has that connotation for me.

          • NathansFather

            Supernatural can be of both domains. God’s Domain and the domain of the evil one. “super”natural means beyond “natural” – nature and man’s state.

          • Monty

            Hmmm, don’t agree but that’s ok. I decided to go through my bible and cross out everywhere I saw the word “supernatural”. You guessed it, it’s not there. We have to agree to disagree.

          • NathansFather

            Monty. I looked up God’s attributes. I came up with a term we both can agree we serve a Transcendent GOD. I’m going with that from now on. Thank you for pointing this out. Iron sharpens iron 🙂

          • NathansFather

            What do you use to distinguish the two besides God is Spirit. Even that can be misconstrued as what kind of spirit? The Holy Spirit or the spirit of disobedience?

            What is a good word for acts not visible that can only come from I AM’s Power alone?
            Perhaps the attributes?

            I understand your reluctance on the supernatural word. I too have had close encounters with the evil kind. GOD was good and pulled me back and to Him with those 3 Knocks.

            God’s known attributes.
            http://www.theopedia.com/list-of-gods-known-attributes

          • NathansFather

            Hey how about this Monty?

            *** Transcendent GOD ***

            http://www.theopedia.com/transcendence-of-god

            Transcendence of God

            “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.” (Isaiah 55:8-9, NIV)

            The transcendence of God is closely related to his sovereignty. It means that God is above, other than, and distinct from all he has made – he transcends it all. Paul says that there is “one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all (Ephesians 4:6). Scripture says elsewhere, “For you, O LORD, are the Most High over all the earth; you are exalted far above all gods (Psalms 97:9; cf. 108:5).

  • Monty

    “Going to heaven when we die”? My understanding is that those who are born again are seated in heaven with Christ right now. The problem with all mankind is not our “good” or “bad”. We are born dead in trespass and sin. It’s been well said that Jesus did not come to make bad people good. He came to make dead people live. God’s initial evaluation of those who get to face Him is right there. Are we (spiritually) alive or dead? I don’t know about other people but I’d not like a dead person to come to my celebration! Now if we are truly alive spiritually it makes literally a world of difference. We are then able to live in a way which pleases God. However, it is still not a given. We carry over the habit and memory of the old life into to the new. To grow spiritually the old has to be dispensed with and replaced with the new. It’s a lifetime process but it has a definite beginning. It starts when we consecrate ourselves wholeheartedly to the will of God, no matter what. Christians tell me that we should follow the example of Christ. Sure. It is not nearly as easy as that. Many Christians balk at the total commitment required. Lord Jesus did not want to go to the cross, but His determination to obey God overrode His natural desire for self preservation. Once we quit trying to work out what God wants and try to please Him as best we can, we can get out of the “Romans 7” dilemma. I know it all too well. Now I know that Christ is my life, not just as a theological concept but in reality and experience. It is the most wonderful freedom. Once we realise that God loves us more than we can possibly imagine, it is easier to trust Him completely. Lord Jesus within us, in the Person of His Holy Spirit, leads us and empowers us to do the will of God. We will be loving our neighbour because Christ in us loves him or her! God has provided the perfect salvation. We can do nothing to earn it; we surely do not deserve it. But when we know that Christ is our life, the struggling and striving ceases. The old nature that we inherit from Adam died with Christ, who tasted death for every man. We rise again with Christ so that we are new beings. The old is passed away and the new has come. This is for the here and now, not for the future!

    • pud

      Lunatic

    • NathansFather

      Great post Monty. I always enjoy your logic and faith filled words.

      • Monty

        Thanks, but it’s all in God’s word! If you are interested in more, http://www.christianlife.org.au It’s not my work, rather our late brother’s. We also much appreciate the writings of Watchman Nee and Derek Prince, as well as a number of others. Our focus is on Christ because that is God’s focus! Oh, I don’t talk to PUD. He claims to be an atheist. I don’t believe in atheists so they do not exist.

        • NathansFather

          Ha ha ha… see people keep defending PUDsky. Still won’t prove what it is. We can only assume it is what it chose to call itself. D|ck.

          • Pud is rational. You seem to be irrational.

          • NathansFather

            Belief in The Almighty Transcendent GOD seems irrational to those who cannot see the LOGIC in glimpses of The Upper Story.

            I love Berit’s simple page in this regard. She is one of the very few who has this kind of vision behind the veil. God has blessed her richly. Such a lovely, lovely voice and demeanor!

            My High Tower: Seeing the World from His perspective
            “The Lord is… my High Tower and my Refuge.” 2 Samuel 22:2-3
            http://www.crossroad.to/Victory/names/tower.htm

          • “Upper Story” is delusional. You have supplied no empirical evidence for it.

        • NathansFather

          Love Watchman Nee. Some of the very best followers of The Way are in the communist, arab, Africa, and Far East. We spoilt brat American “church” should be ashamed. We are far, far from the Church of The Way of the First and Second Century. Those in oppressed countries believe. We are too busy with MeMyselfAndIism. Thank you for the pointer! I will check it out.

        • NathansFather

          Oooo love this one! I will be hanging out for days reading.

          The Way, The Truth And The Life

          “What really is the Christian life?”
          http://www.christianlife.org.au/the-way
          We studied this tonight in Bible Study. The Church of The Way Saint Paul established that was built on the Rock of our Salvation.

          BTW, love Aussies 🙂 Love yall’s sharp witted dry humor. Takes real
          intelligence to have it. I don’t buy my beloved does. Can say the most
          outrageous things with a straight face. 😉 Great ta meet yah!

          • Monty

            Appreciate the comments. I agree that the Western church is a pale shadow of what it ought to be. I also believe that we will see great changes for the better over the next few years. Lord Jesus is coming back for a glorious church, not a defeated rabble. Recently John Bevere has been saying some good things about phony conversions and such. He has a huge audience so he may well get a lot of Christians thinking.

          • NathansFather

            I need to check into John Bevere. We are besought by the TV Evangelist types such as Joel Olsteen and the cast of the Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN). These are the prosperity pushers. The only thing that is properous is their bank accounts. What I find very disturbing is Olsteen fist shaking to Heaven and saying, “I declare…” He is telling GOD what to do. Now if that isn’t making one a little god I don’t know what is.

          • Monty

            I know what you mean. There are many preachers that give me the creeps. They are as phony as a 3 dollar note. John Bevere comes from the Kenneth Hagin/Oral Roberts tradition. He does seem to have avoided the “prosperity gospel” trap. I’ve read some of his books and heard him speak on TV. He seems pretty sound to me. I do not agree with a lot of stuff I hear, but I also know that I can be as wrong as anyone else. For example, Joyce Meyer I believe is of God. She has grown immensely over the years. Now she is quoting Watchman Nee! Some are obviously (to me) false, others a bit of a mixture. We need real discernment because some sound really impressive yet there is a something missing. I ask the Lord to show me because I can be fooled by appearances and fine sounding words.

          • NathansFather

            NOPE not into Joyce Myer at all.
            I nix anyone who is on the Trinity Broadcasting System.
            Too much prosperity false prophets there.
            We are judged too by the company we keep.
            She ought to move along.

            I did a John Bevere search on Duck Duck Go https://www.duckduckgo.com and he does have his detractors. They have labeled him a dominion theologist. You might want to look that up. Probably the most rock solid of all is our granny sister Berit Kjos

            Kjos Ministries – Crossroad To
            http://www.crossroad.to
            She’s been born from above since 1971.
            Jack and I both consider her a mentor.
            Check her out. She and her husband Andy are true watchmen on the wall.

          • NathansFather

            Say what time and day is it down under?

          • Monty

            Right now it is 3.03 pm, Saturday 7th October. We are way ahead of the USA in one thing at least!

          • NathansFather

            Neato. I love it. You are a day before us. You have us at a disadvantage sir 🙂

          • NathansFather

            Happy Wednesday Monty! We are going camping for the next 3 days. 🙂 Which area roughly do you live in Aussieland? We live in East Tennessee. Stunningly beautiful with the Smokey Mountains as our backdrop. Just looking out our door we see the face of God 🙂

          • Monty

            I live in Victoria, near Melbourne about 25 miles south, on the bay. No mountains here. Lovely wide, clean beaches. I’ve lived here over 40 years; it’s great!

          • NathansFather

            I here that area has lovely beaches. What is that city called the garden along the ocean again? Knew some Terrier people from that part of your fine continent. Been way past 15 years since I spoke with them last on our group board.

            Maybe you and John can meet. I think John may be on the cusp of coming Home. But then it is entirely out of you or my power….

            Only God the Father wipes away the mud in our eyes and the massive build up of ear wax.

            Pray for John’s release as he is one of your fellow countryman. I just wonder what hit him to turn away?

            I note reading your bio of your parents similar to mine. I hope they made peace with the Lord before they died… unfortunately I won’t know until later. At least my Brother Brian was turned during Hurricane Irma. Hurrah! I was afraid he would die an atheist. Good to know I will see at least 1 immediate family member worshipping Jesus with all the other Saints.

          • Monty

            Melbourne is known as “Garden City”. We have parks everywhere. It is right on the bay. My mother had some kind of belief in Jesus but not what you would call active. She lived in fear of dad. I did not see them often as they lived in NZ. My sister is saved. Dad and I got on much better as we got older. As long as I stayed off “religious” subjects! My sister was with them when they passed away. She thinks that dad may have accepted Christ on his deathbed. You are right, all will be clear when we are Home with the Lord.

          • NathansFather

            I DO believe in death bed conversions. My dearest of all my relatives my Uncle Buck (YES there really was one) turned to the Lord at age 83 shortly before he died of complications from brain cancer. His memorial service of course very sad because we all will miss him so but it was joyous as we know we definitely will see him again. I so look forward to that! I know also I will see my blessed mother-in-law Virginia! WOW GOD was good to me giving me Virginia and her son. He was good to me even before I loved Him.

          • NathansFather

            E TN to Monty come in please 🙂

          • Monty

            Hiya, I’m right here for a few minutes. How was your trip?

          • NathansFather

            Had a great time. Going to launch out to the beach end of month and early Nov. You are so fortunate being right there at a beach.

          • Near Frankston?

          • Monty

            Frankston South to be precise.

          • NathansFather

            LOVE the beach! We have one we go to as much as possible. Now that we are retired and sprung for a small travel travel trailer we can get to it more and more. Something life affirming and refreshing about a beach.
            Crystal White Sands of the Gulf of Mexico at Santa Rosa Beach, FL
            We are going to Grayton Beach shortly. Have already been to Topside 2 long respites this year.
            Ah yes, I can hear the waves lapping from here in ETN 🙂
            Topsail Hill Preserve State Park
            https://www.floridastateparks.org/park/Topsail-Hill
            Grayton Beach State Park
            https://www.floridastateparks.org/park/Grayton-Beach

            This area is called the Hillbilly Rivera 🙂
            We have mostly SEC (South Eastern Conference Team fans) here.
            Hardly any carpetbaggers. 🙂
            They generally go down 75 to evil mickeyland. Bless their hearts!
            (Never mind I won’t go into that most of you don’t believe in stuff like demons and such as Illuminati. I went that way 2 times before I got my shock.)

          • Well I agree with you about many of the television evangelists. Many of them are prosperity gospel shysters who are after your money. They are preaching nonsense, but they manage to attract crowds of gullible believers. They are ripping people off.

          • NathansFather

            >>> Lord Jesus is coming back for a glorious church, not a defeated rabble.<<< Amen to that! We will have remnant overcomers because we follow The Overcomer. Some of us will be martyred as it is written. They are fortunate to be in Heaven earlier than us. Victory was assured on The Cross.
            Preparing for Victory
            http://www.crossroad.to/Victory/contents.htm

  • It’s quite sad that people still worship a version of God that curses people to eternal fire. What a monstrous “God”.

    • pud

      They are terrified indoctrinated psychologically impaired simple minded morons

      • I don’t go that far. I have family members, that I know and love who espouse a belief in hell. They are not “morons”.

        But I do think you are right about indoctrination. It’s the only thing that can explain the ubiquity of bizarre religious beliefs such as eternal damnation. Indoctrination also explains the geographical displacement of religion: if you were born in the southern United States you are likely a Christian; if your were born in Saudi Arabia, you are most likely a Muslim; if you were born in Nepal, you are likely a Hindu; if you were born in Utah, you have a 70% chance of being a Mormon.

        • Mark Mac Donald

          but their beliefs are moronic. They take such pride in FAITH. Delusion is a synonym for faith

          • Well, I was a believer for half my life. It took many years (and probably the emergence of the internet – easy access to information) to break the spell for me. That’s why I have sympathy. I’ve experienced the indoctrination myself; daily infusions of indoctrination have a powerful effect on the human psyche.

          • Mark Mac Donald

            Me too. I still feel like a moron. Notice I didn’t call them moronic at all. Just their beliefs

          • NathansFather

            And what dictionary did you find this?
            Read John 17.

        • NathansFather

          Monty

          Cut your post into pieces.
          Dadgummit comment windows must have a character limit.
          Frustrates the snot out of me.
          I have to chop one up in pieces too.

          I read your post awaiting moderation.
          I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.
          To be safe you may want to use a strategic * for a vowel.

          • I have no idea what you’re talking about.

          • NathansFather

            Sorry Beau I had to use this window as I can’t post to Monty’s since it is awaiting moderation. There is nothing wrong with what he has to say. I hope it is cleared!

          • Try contacting the blog moderator

          • NathansFather

            Monty really needs to appeal himself.
            He can ask Jack for help.
            Patheos is pretty notorious for not answering inquiries.
            No doubt some robotic script dumper got him.
            Monty deserves to be heard as do you.
            Both of you carry on civil dialogue unlike you know who… our resident (sigh) D|CK.
            Carry on Beau 🙂

    • Martin Hutchison

      More sad that so many people are so degenerate that they find false Gods to worship- Gaia, Global Warming, Socialism, Cultural Marxism. Show me an atheist that doesn’t worship at some alter or another and we can get along. But when so many treat dissagreement with the SJW agenda as heresy, we cannot help but conclude that your arguments against religion work against your “faith” too.

      • Atheists don’t worship at altars; and your assertion that they do is without evidence of any kind.

        Does it make you feel better to accuse those with whom you disagree.

        • Martin Hutchison

          Their justification of AGW sure sounds like a defense of a factless faith. Along with many other sacred theories that make no sense. And substitute “virtue signaling ” for “worshipping”, and “everywhere ” for “alter” and you have a religion.

          • Yeah, false statements even with your fake substitutions.

          • Martin Hutchison

            Think about the frustration you feel arguing with a Christian who will in the end refer to faith. This is exactly the frustration that STEM types have with liberals (usually with college majors that studiously avoid the scientific method and actual science) when arguing global warming. The closest thing to facts liberals have are now verifiably doctored temperature data. yet they defend the indefensible as if it is an article of faith central to their being.

          • NathansFather

            Smile!

            I have blocked this sanctimonious ?person? 🙂 Still thinking he/she? is a little god. May GOD the Father, the Transcendent GOD overtake him/her with a clear event. His will be done and not ours. Until this happens the IT in he/she will keep speaking.

          • Apparently “Research Berean” considers legitimate arguments and criticism “rude” and “demonic”. His offered “reading material” includes nothing of scholarly repute, only websites featuring the ravings of far right wing conspiracy theorists.

            He actually thinks it’s clever that he’s “blocked me” when every other reader can clearly see what I’m posting. He’s only blocked himself.

          • Joseph Shaw

            You are the definition of sanctimonious. It’s remarkably hypocritical that you accuse others of that which you exemplify with every post.

          • Global warming? Since when was that the subject?

          • NathansFather

            Those followers of The Way know that we follow no religion of chanting and rituals. All other belief systems do including the religion of atheism. Yes, atheism is a religion. Signifying nothing in the end. Clanging symbols. Chants generally of cursing and PROOF I demand PROOF without supplying any of their own. Personal attacks is all they have.
            Afraid to read posts of links of scholarship. Repetitious and so worn. Ritualization.Yes, atheism is the religion of chaos from the father of chaos. Closed muddied eyes and ears stoppered by the liar who wages spiritual warfare on the saints.

          • Martin Hutchison

            One of my favorite lines is in Matthew (feel free to correct paraphrasing) “If you do not believe that I am the son of God, judge me by my works”. My interpretation: I love that Jesus basically said “Ok, doubt. But use your head and see what you can see and decide for yourself”. Not exactly a demand for symbol clanging or blind obedience. Do any gurus or prophets of global warming, intersectional feminism, “racial unity” or liberation theology allow this? They really are all about symbol clanging (great term). Would they call someone “brother” who has basic questions, who questions the symbols and idols? I have very righteous men who call me brother despite my questions and despite my searching for truth (because of it?). I feel for anyone foolish enough to think they would find that kind of fellowship and kind help on the left.

          • NathansFather

            Hi Martin! Great post! You have the sense of Matthew for sure in this. May I call you brother?

          • Martin Hutchison

            Please. I am not doctrinaire (very questioning), but but I have learned that fellowship in Christ is part of a happy and healthy life.

          • NathansFather

            🙂 It is obvious. Trying to get that over to some people here is a waste of time unfortunately. Some people argue with walls. Let their breath come back to them.

          • Joseph Shaw

            Read Martin’s posts a little more carefully and you’ll find that, for him, “fellowship in Christ” means racist anti-semitism.

          • Joseph Shaw

            Nope. If atheism is a religion, then OFF is a T.V. channel.

          • Why do you keep insisting that atheism is a religion. Clearly, you don’t know what you are talking about.

          • NathansFather

            Did you not read the article? Honestly you are being intellectually lazy.

  • tovlogos

    Pastor Wellman — it makes sense that you attract a lot of attackers (Ephesians 6:16), which is of course a blessing (Matthew 5:11-12).

    • Jack Wellman

      Thank you friend. We all receive blessings from those who scorn the message of God (Mat 5:11-12).

      • Jeff Bingham

        Wow. You really think that a few blog comments (some admittedly snarky, others with legitimate arguments) rise to the level of “revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely” (Mat 5:11)?

        Talk about a persecution complex!

        • tovlogos

          “Persecution”? You can’t be serious — As I said, it’s a blessing? The peace that comes with “personally” knowing
          our Savior is like nothing else in this life. (If we didn’t somewhere along the Path receive that “assurance,” the Judeo-Christian
          life wouldn’t have the same meaning. The awareness of the indwelling Spirit is very real) You may not be aware of the spirit that
          inspires the vitriol against Christ, and therefore His followers. When you’ve walked this road for a long time, as any road, many things
          become apparent. It’s not a guessing game — it’s fact, that we take seriously. God protects even the people that do not believe in Him, for a limited time.
          God is insulted all day long — He’s beyond petty insults. Nothing, however can stop His plan.
          I appreciate your statement, and the manner in which you gave it; and I appreciate the fact that you looked up the verses.

          • Jeff Bingham

            Serious about persecution? You were the one who claimed Matt 5:11 – not me.

            You seem to think that these comments rise to that level: “revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely”, otherwise, why cite Matt 5:11?

            I’ll grant that there is a troll calling himself “pud” here who tends to be here only to launch insults. But there are also a number of legitimate arguments that you can’t simply toss off as “vitriol”, much less a spirit that inspires it (could it be … Satan?). None of it rises to the level of persecution.

          • tovlogos

            Ok Jeff — good comment. There is no doubt that Jack Wellman understood when I addressed “him”, what I was indicating.
            These comment do not rise to the level of Christians being murdered because they refuse to deny Christ when threatened
            with sword at throat; But “it is the same spirit”.
            Read what I am saying, not hanging up on one thought. The “spirit” I mentioned slipped right past you.
            I love a legitimate “conversation”, expressing each person’s point of view — no problem. I haven’t tossed any “legitimate” arguments.
            I have spoken to atheists for years, many of them have very good manners — that was my only complaint. Right now you are trying
            to take the position to “debate”. As I said I am not going to spend the afternoon bantering with you.

            Okay, what I would suggest is that you ask Jesus into your heart, believe in Him; begin to seriously study the word of God.
            Obviously, God is not going to beg you to love him; even human parents wouldn’t do such a thing. You have to go to Him, humbly,
            and ask Him into your heart — immediately the Holy Spirit will come and indwell you — then you will begin having all your questions
            answered.
            Then you will understand why the passages I have quoted are not a stretch by any means.
            There is an unseen world that is “spiritual”; it cannot be understood until you become “spiritual”.
            Look at John 3:3; and John 4:24 — these are critical for beginning the process of becoming “spiritual”; and forget about “me”.
            I like all believers, am simply servant of the Son of God — passing the commission. Go to God Jeff.
            Read the New Covenant first, then the Old. The New Testament has been hidden in the Old from the beginning. One of the things
            that Jesus did, which only God could do was reveal that fact — that the New Testament was there all along. There was no
            New Testament when He began His earthly ministry. Seriously studying these historical documents, which have a tangible
            practical dimension, which will answer every question you could possibly think of; and a thousand you haven’t begun to think.

            I think we’ve said enough — I wish you the very best, Jeff — honestly.

          • Jeff Bingham

            If you want to understand how I hear your advice, substitute “Ganesha” or “Buddha” or “Asherah” for “Jesus”:

            “What I would suggest is that you ask Ganesha into your heart, believe in Him; begin to seriously study the Bhagavad Gita. ”

            Makes about as much sense to me. I don’t believe supernatural tales simply because they appear in ancient texts. Ancient texts are the product of the superstitious ancient people who wrote them.

            I’m actually quite familiar with the Christian bible, I’ve read it cover to cover more than once. So I’m quite aware of some of the good philosophy that has made it’s way in to the text (the golden rule), as well as the horrors of hell that were invented in the Maccabean era and found their way into the New Testament. I’m aware of the fact that the gospels frequently copy from each other verbatim, while also altering the stories to follow separate agendas, creating oddities such as completely conflicting birth, death, and resurrection narratives. I’m aware that the apostle Paul as a Roman citizen is so culturally desensitized to the evils of slavery (physical and sexual abuse, the separation of families, the loss of personal freedoms) that he not only calls on slaves to submit, he even uses slavery as a metaphor for the relationship between Christians and their God.

            I would actually join you in encouraging people to read and study the bible honestly and thoroughly; reading the bible was a major factor in my atheism.

            I wish you the best as well.

          • tovlogos

            Thanks — I understand.

          • NathansFather

            I posted an article link on this. Check it out!

          • Jeff Bingham

            No thanks!

          • NathansFather

            It is indeed coming to our shores. The Spiritual Warfare we see growing in the United States is more pernicious. Lucifer convinces so many he doesn’t exist. Hard to believe for instance people don’t see the biggest shooting mass murder in the history of this country that the demented soul did ordered by the demons inside him. Lucifer is sneaky for sure.

          • Mark Mac Donald

            I can’t tell if this is sarcasm?
            Seriously, Lucifer? Grow up.

          • NathansFather

            Wellllll guess what?
            Check this out.
            These two people believe there is a lucifer AND they worship him.
            Saul Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals
            http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/communism/alinsky.htm
            Can’t you just look at her and see the demons in her eyes and twisted face?
            The wiccan priestess that used to channel Eleanor Roosevelt in the WH?
            Then there is the former dictator that refuses to let go of power…
            Sigh… perhaps YOU should grow up.

          • Mark Mac Donald

            well, you’ve convinced me!!

            You make zero sense

          • He’s mad.

          • Lucifer? Demons? The guy who performed the recent mass shooting is responsible for his actions, not the imaginary Lucifer nor non existent demons.

          • NathansFather

            YEP. These evil entities indeed exist. Sad to say…

          • Jeff Bingham

            The more you talk, the more ludicrous you sound. I’m afraid I stopped believing in fairies in after grade school.

          • NathansFather

            I really pity you Jeff. I will pray for you that you are visited by the messenger of The Transcendent GOD since you seem so bitter and lost. The best day of my life when I was in my early 50s was when there was knocking at my doorfacing. I was terrified! No one visible but the audio unmistakable. Sent me prone on the concrete immediately. It is an awesome thing indeed to be confronted by The Living God. Literally scared the Hell out of me … oi vay!

          • Jeff Bingham

            It’s not your monotheism that is ludicrous; it’s your demonology. Presumably, you would have stood with the crazed judges who sent the innocent villagers of Salem to the gallows.

            Your pity is cheap and worthless.

          • NathansFather

            Realllyyy???? Seriously???? Huh! Get real.

          • Jeff Bingham

            I’m not the one who looks around and sees demons.

        • NathansFather

          Speaking of Persecution… it used to be just discrimination now we are seeing the creeping crud that other countries have devolved also now in the USA. I sent you a multipart on this Jack in email.

          [Don’t go to Breitbart. Bannon has exposed himself to be in partner with king Heinz AKA Henry Kissinger of Bilderberg. I won’t be involved any more in a good that definitely is being lead to the darkside. Too bad Andrew Breitbart was murdered the day before he was going to expose the Shadow Government of the dominionist.]

          Greater love hath no man….

          Restoration Action
          http://splc.restorationaction.com/
          View Video
          SIGN THE PETITION
          Please act now by signing the petition — our freedoms are on the line.

          Second Vote
          https://www.2ndvote.com
          Second Vote News
          https://www.2ndvote.com/category/news/

          • Jeff Bingham

            Clearly you don’t know the meaning of the word “persecution”. There are Christians who are persecuted in this world. There are also Jews, Muslims, Buddhist, Hindus, and atheists who are persecuted in this world. But American Christians live in privilege, not persecution.

          • NathansFather

            Disappointed you are afraid to read the links I have posted. Denial.

            We are persecuted in this country in a very subversive way. The USA is spoilt rotten and much of our “American” church is Post Modern. So yes, we are in a spiritual warfare deluxe here. Harder to discern than the upfront and present danger of the countries Christians you mention.

            I get Open Doors and Open Doors USA publications each day. I love Standing Strong Through the Storm.

            https://www.opendoors.org
            https://www.opendoorsusa.org

            Have you downloaded the World Watch List yet?

          • Jeff Bingham

            Oh, I’ve seen the conspiracy theory sites you’re linking. Rich Privileged American Christians with a persecution complex.

          • NathansFather

            So where are you located?

          • Jeff Bingham

            In the U.S., where Christians are a privileged majority.

          • NathansFather

            I am sorry I must report and block you. I hope you will go to the atheist forum where you belong and leave us believers alone. Thank you for blessing me. I dust my sandals of you as I do not converse with people of your ilk. Anything you say to me or about me will be ignored. Please leave.

          • Jeff Bingham

            How interesting. Your definition of a troll seems to be anyone who disagrees with you. And what do you plan to report? That I am an atheist? I didn’t realize that was a reportable offense.

      • NathansFather

        Oh yes indeed. How well we know dear Pastor Jack.
        YET we know the Victory is already ours secured on The Cross. 🙂
        NO ONE or human or demonic can ever take that away from us.

      • Mark Mac Donald

        FREAK ALERT!!!

    • Jeff Bingham

      Well that’s an easy dodge. Don’t actually make an intelligent argument; just accuse other people of being “attackers”.

      • tovlogos

        I dodged nothing; and made a very straightforward statement — you had to look up the verses I quoted to understand
        the statement. Be that as it may, I’m not going to banter with you — If you have something, anything intelligent to say,
        I will listen; otherwise I am not interested in this childishness. Thank you very much.

        • pud

          All cults state the same nonsense. It’s a key tactic to keep the gullible idiots inline.

        • Jeff Bingham

          I know the scriptures you’ve referenced quite well. With Ephesians 6:16, you clearly think these commenter wield “the flaming arrows of the evil one”, and with Matthew 5:11-12, you’re equating these comments with those who “revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely … in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”

          Talk about hyperbole!

          You and Wellman share quite the persecution complex.

    • NathansFather

      PART 1
      So true tvologos.

      If you aren’t being persecuted for His [Jesus Iesous Y’shua’s] Namesake then sorry you aren’t saved. Man pleasers are NOT GOD pleasers.

      The High Priest’s longest and last prayer makes this perfectly clear. Anyone who gains wisdom from the Sword of the Lord of the Whole Armor of GOD [The Way, Truth, and the Life-Jesus’ Word] AND picks up their cross will be persecuted. NOT my words but His Words.

      John 17

      “{… I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
      *** 14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. *** 15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.[a] 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them[b] in the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself,[c] that they also may be sanctified[d] in truth….”
      Lucifer (satan, devil, evil one father of liars, thieves, and murderers and so many more names for the same completely EVIL entity) has NO choice to but to attempt to kill off Jesus eternally. The Victory came upon Jesus Iesous Y’shua’s resurrection from the dead. He missed his chance, too bad so sad for him boo hoo… so his only recourse now it to go after those who carry Jesus in their hearts and are embued with the Holy Spirit. If you aren’t being attacked by lucifer and his minions via spiritual warfare you are no use to Christos Christ.

    • NathansFather

      Part 2

      So you PUDskyites are wasting your time with True followers of The Way. Yet you are so deluded by the demons that inhabit you, you just can’t get off this excessive-compulsive mental illness to keep trying to kill Jesus. Fagttaboutit NOT going to happen. Anyone worshipping the father of liars, thieves, and murderers are DEAD meat… Dead men and wormen walking zombies.

      So PUDskyites read it an’ weep you are wasting what tittle time you have left on this planet. You will NOT enjoy your final disposition. Sorry but the Truth hurts. Get over it. As the saying goes… turn or burn. Sound cruel? NO we are trying to tell you out of love.

      Soooo me worry about your poor pitiful excuses of attacks? NOPE because Christ has promised me He will never leave me. No matter what. I believe it! A shame you do not. I pray for the demonically possessed to God the Father IF it be His will that He will soon confront you supernaturally.

      • You’ve convinced yourself that demons exist, yet you refuse to provide any empirical evidence for their existence because you cannot. Don’t expect sane, rational people to believe in the existence of these so-called invisible entities. There is just as much evidence for demons as there is for fairies: absolutely none.

        • NathansFather

          I may be retracing my steps. I gave an ample amount straight out of Bible Study Tools site. I wonder if you even looked???

      • Instead of focusing on demons, why not show compassion, healing mercy and loving kindness? But you Fundamentalists (subset called Bereans) can’t do this because you see God as a god of wrath.

  • Evolution has always been a theory; but not a theory in the mundane everyday sense. A scientific theory is a model of the natural world for which there is prolific evidence and wide-spread agreement between the entire scientific community. Science recognizes that complete, unequivocal proof is impossible in any field except mathematics; but a theory is the next best thing in science: a model of the natural world with the highest possible degree of probability. A model to which all the evidence points.

    As for all of your other assertions about hell, life after death, and God; what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence

    • Monty

      The evidence is ample. You just refuse to believe it. That’s your choice but there are consequences and I can assure you that you will regret your decision. I take no pleasure in telling you that. I have a duty before God to warn you of what is to come. I can’t choose for you. The theory of evolution has more holes in it than a sieve. It just does not hold water. It’s the “scientific” crutch that atheists lean on to silence their conscience, if they have one left.

      • If the evidence is ample, you seem strangely unable to produce any.

        The theory of evolution is promoted by the entire scientific community; you’ll have to forgive me if I find them more credible than you.

        • Monty

          Your statement is simply wrong. There are many scientists who discount evolution. Most scientists accept that there is invisible matter and invisible energy. By definition it cannot be measured, only inferred from other observations. Not exactly “scientific”. My observations are of an incredibly complex, amazingly varied and stunningly beautiful creation. The idea that it could “just happen” is laughable. I wish my car would self repair and renew itself. I doubt that it would run 24/7 for over a hundred years. My car had a designer and a maker. It is not some kind of “time plus chance plus matter” accident. It is nothing compared to the amazing design of a bird or a cat or any other creature.

          • Nope. The National Academy of Sciences and the American Association for the Advancement of Sciences, along with many other national and international organizations completely back the science of evolution. Among the scientists supporting evolution are numerous Christians as well. “Scientists” who deny evolution are fringe at best.

            Your argument for a “designer” makes no sense. If you think the complexity of the natural world demands a designer (it doesn’t, of course) then the same demand would have to be made of the “designer” itself.

          • NathansFather

            You really need to go see the Ark reproduction in Northern Kentucky. Really, really neat! The “kinds” are the animals present on the earth in the days of Noah. You will see the predecessors of the many now varied species and subspecies. So evolution is partially right.

          • Oh, that’s hilarious! I might go for a laugh some day.

          • Monty

            Some people call it gene pooling. God created the animals with every variety inherent in the genetic makeup. You can see it in dog breeding. Long lost breeds have been recovered by selectively breeding mongrel dogs until the required strain is back again.

          • NathansFather

            Yep. Since you are in Aussie land I guess you won’t see the Ark reproduction. Do check into there site. Our church “sonshine” bus of us ole ladies and our Pastor went. Fascinating.
            https://arkencounter.com/

            As for animal gene changing they adapt to the environment in which they have migrated.
            There are so many more “kinds” than in Noah’s Day.

            Even man has changed since the garden. Our DNA is very damaged now. Look how long the early humans used to live. Father God limited the human lifespans to about 120 years old later on.

            With my damaged DNA my parents had I likely will only live until my early 70s. No problem I am prepared at anytime to go to my True Home in the Third Heaven. I look forward to it! Father will call me home when my gift He gave me has been accomplished. His will and not my will.

            Poor atheists, agnostics, and false prophets don’t have the assurance of joining the saints He has made Saints. I do so pity them they choose not to listen and see.

          • Monty

            You never know, I visited the Grand Canyon around this time last year. It’s just awesome. Being retired has definite benefits! I’ve seen the Ark on google. It’s amazing. There is a full size model in Hong Kong too. I may visit there one day also. It operates as a hotel too so you can stay there. I’m amazed the China government lets it remain there.

          • NathansFather

            WOW I didn’t know about the Chinese one. Interesting! Thanks! The Ark is definitely worth seeing should you ever get to our side of the largest pond.

            I wish I could go to Australia to visit but the beloved is not keen on it 🙁 Want to go to Scotland too but that isn’t in the cards either. I almost got to go to the Holyland through another church’s trip. I was the only one who signed up to go. Dadgummit. Now that I was cleared to go had my passport made and everything. Cash was secured… sigh.. guess I will see it when the Kingdom physically comes to earth. See you there for sure Monty!

            I used to run a Terrier Group back when Microsoft had groups. There was a really neat lady on it that bred and showed Bedlington Terriers. She told us very much about the outback in which she lived. Sounds fascinating! What part do you live in? She was in the very South but not on the coast.

          • NathansFather

            There are no coincidences but there ARE miracles great and small everyday! The Holy Spirit does flow for His children. Praise GOD maker of Heaven and Earth forever and ever AMEN!
            Here is today’s Faith Life Verse for Fri Oct 6.
            Bible Gateway ESV
            Colossians 1:15-16 Verses
            Colossians 1:19-20 + Context
            https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians+1&version=ESV

            The Preeminence of Christ

            *** 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. *** 16 For by[f] him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.***
            17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. *** 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. *** 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. ***

            21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation[g] under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

          • NathansFather

            Yes I used to breed dogs. We currently have a Border Collie I chose not to breed. She has too many faults. Mabel Joe’s Pearl is as smart as Border Collies are billed.

            We were blessed with a breeding pair of Scottish Terriers. They made 7 lovely pups. My best friend up in Staten Island, NY has our pick of litter Colin. He is well over 13 now which is much longer than the show dog breeders dogs live. They have been so close line bred. Even father to daughter and mother to son. Tragic. The last two Westminister winners of Scotties only lived to about 5 years old. They were bred to death and had many physical disease faults.

            Man can be so cruel to the animals that God gave us. We all must face the Throne for the abusers it is the Great White Throne of Judgment for punishment of dead souls. For followers of the Way it is the Mercy Seat for rewards and everlasting life.

            I cherish every moment I have with my furbabies. I have never in my whole life lived without at least one dog. I intend to have a dog until I am called home. Mabel has her daddy and if he passes we have his little brother and his wife who are much younger than us to take care of her.

          • How did the Australian kangaroos board the so-called ark? Did they swim? Was Noah the first to discover Australia? Did God Levitate them? (Beam me up Scotty). The ark story is ridiculous if interpreted literally. How was all the dung shovelled off the ark?

          • NathansFather

            You really should visit the recreation yourself. It’s awesome. You will find your questions and many others answered there! Toooo cooollll me un’ the other little ole ladies and our Pastor were blown away by it when we took our Sonshine bus there. Even told what they did to get rid of the dung. Showed the various animals on earth that were the “kind” (we call this genus) that differentiated into the millions of species today from the basic stock during Noah’s time.

            [Additional, since you are in Australia it is unlikely you will visit physically the Ark reproduction. Do go see it’s site at least if you haven’t already, John.]

            Ark Encounter, KY
            https://arkencounter.com/

          • The Ken Ham nonsense!

          • NathansFather

            You really should visit the recreation yourself. It’s awesome. You will find your questions and many others answered there! Toooo cooollll me un’ the other little ole ladies and our Pastor were blown away by it when we took our Sonshine bus there. Even told what they did to get rid of the dung. Showed the various animals on earth that were the “kind” (we call this genus) that differentiated into the millions of species today from the basic stock during Noah’s time.

            [Additional, since you are in Australia it is unlikely you will visit physically the Ark reproduction. Do go see it’s site at least if you haven’t already, John.]

            Ark Encounter, KY
            https://arkencounter.com/

          • NathansFather

            Straight from Science Class 101:
            KINGDOM
            Phylum
            Class
            Order
            Family
            Genus (DNA gene pool)
            Species (Differentiated Geni)

            Note Kingdom is first 🙂
            Beau our dear lost sheep you are missing so much.
            Most of all Heaven Life Everlasting.
            Such a pity.
            Those followers of The Way, The Truth, and The Life pity your choice.

            I instruct tech classes at the tertiary level (logic) as well as teaching science PreK – High School. No bragging… just fact. I am a very humbled person. GOD humbled me by audible knocks similar to the calling Saint Paul got visually and with audio. WHAMMO! NOT that my role in history is important at all. I am just a slave to my Lord Jesus Christos Christ. Perhaps He will knock some sense into you too. Or not because you refuse to hear His call. His will be done!

          • Playing word games with the names of Linnaean classifications is neither science nor logic.

            In biological classification, a kingdom has nothing to do with your biblical allusion. A kingdom is a taxonomic rank consisting of Animalia, Plantae, Fungi, Protista, Archaea/Archaeabacteria, and Bacteria/Eubacteria. It isn’t even the top rank, despite your supposed knowledge of “Science Class 101”.

            Don’t you realize that offering fake science only makes us question your intelligence?

        • NathansFather

          When a more suitable devotional topic comes up I will post the historical, scientific, and archealogy links once again that shows there is more than a quadrillion+ to one chance GOD the Son was not the Messiah. PUDsky always shouts for proof, proof but never produces any of his demonic positions to the contrary. I supply Christian proofs and then he/she/it refuses to read them. Only answer is cursing, filth, and personal attacks.

          • Why delay? If you have scientific evidence for God, by all means, post it. You haven’t supplied any proofs whatsoever.

          • NathansFather

            Part 1

            I was hoping you would say that. Are you willing to read the sources I post?
            I know you are quite capable of civil discourse.

            1. The Mathematical Proof for Christianity Is Irrefutable – Part 3 [In part read the article]
            http://www.christianpost.com/news/the-mathematical-proof-for-christianity-is-irrefutable-96295/#sybZudqFM9geUlfb.99
            Here are 8 of those 300 prophecies:
            (1) The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem. (Micah 5:2; Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-6)
            (2) The Messiah will be a descendant of Jacob. (Numbers 24:17; Matthew 1:2)
            (3) The Messiah will enter Jerusalem as a king riding on a donkey. (Zechariah 9:9; Mark 11:4-11)
            (4) The Messiah will be betrayed by a friend. (Psalm 41:9; Luke 22:47,48)
            (5) The Messiah’s betrayal money will be used to purchase a potter’s field. (Zechariah 11:13; Matthew 27:9,10)
            (6) The Messiah will be spat upon and struck. (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 26:67)
            (7) The Messiah’s hands and feet will be pierced. (Psalm 22:16; John 20:25-27)
            (8) Soldiers will gamble for the Messiah’s garments. (Psalm 22:18; Luke 23:34)
            There is no way one man could have fulfilled all 8 of these prophecies unless God was making it happen. Who else controls history? Who else could give us such irrefutable proof for Christianity?
            *** The odds are one in one hundred quadrillion, or 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000 ***

          • Clearly this writer has never read an iota of scholarship on biblical writings. There is a single phrase answer to his silly conundrum:

            Vaticinium ex eventu

          • Monty

            Utter garbage. Biblical prophecy is for real and is incredibly accurate. People complain to me that God does not reveal Himself. He has, through His creation, His word and His Son, Jesus Christ. Anyone can twist anything to suit their equally twisted minds. For what? So you can go to hell knowing that you won the argument? It just shows how depraved unbelievers are. “People who refuse to believe in God do not believe in nothing. They believe in anything.” (attributed to GK Chesterton).

          • NathansFather

            More about animals. They are in Heaven too!

            Here are my Scotties.
            This site is over 15 years old but still goes to the top of a search list.
            Many of the links are outdated or I have disabled.

            Here is a page that many visit when they lose a beloved pet family member see the Scripture and the Cairn we had prior to finding our Scots.
            http://webpages.charter.net/mungoman/TheScottyAppeal/TheScottyAppeal2.html
            When our Cairn Terrier Myrtle died she stopped my beloveds watch to let us know she was with God.

          • Debate a fundamentalist and it won’t be long before their arguments crumble into nothing but “you’re going to hell”! The sad belief in a monstrous God who tortures unbelievers for eternity.

          • Myles

            No proof has ever been shown,or offered, to show that gods are anything more than delusions in the minds of the mentally ill.
            Which of the many versions of his word is the “true” version? How did you decide which of the myriads of gods is the “true” god?
            Zombies that walk on water are just as credible as murderers who go door-to-door killing all first-borns.
            You are pathetic.

          • Monty

            Whatever. I’d rather be a pathetic fool for Christ than a “genius” for Satan as you are. I try with people like you. I know I’m wasting my breath, but I have a faint hope that the truth will cut through the darkness of your foolish intellect. I’ll leave you to your rants.

          • NathansFather

            Yep Monty, for some reason these evil-inspired posters seem to be more than usual. Generally it’s just PUD… must have some reinforcements… sigh… Maybe they will go where they belong on the Atheist Forum on Patheos with their buddies who hate also. Just keep blocking them and ignore their threats, obscenities, and rants. Monty they love attention. The most effective is don’t bother speaking (typing) to them. Boyo boy they hate that 🙂 PUD goes orbital and threatens all Christians on earth with death and disappearance. Clearly an unhinged IT.

            Frustration for them. Blessings for us. 🙂 Keep heaping coals on their heads of the Bread of the Body and Living Water of Jesus Iesous Y’shua’s Words. Read also the Prophets and Apostles and Disciples how to respond.

            Pray for them.
            Thank them for blessing us.
            Dust our sandals by marking and blocking.

            Meanwhile read:
            The Christian Crier: Top 7 Bible Verses About Bullying And Dealing With Bullies
            by Pastor Jack Wellman, Patheos and Telling Ministries, my
            brother in Christ, mentor, and Biblical Christian man.
            http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2016/05/23/top-7-bible-verses-about-bullying-and-dealing-with-bullies/

            Referenced Scripture (see also the cross references)
            Luke 6:27-28
            Romans 12:18-19
            Psalm 138:7
            Ephesians 6:12
            Leviticus 19:18
            Romans 12:20-21

          • Myles

            No proof has ever been shown,or offered, to show that gods are anything more than delusions in the minds of the mentally ill.
            Which of the many versions of his word is the “true” version? How did you decide which of the myriads of gods is the “true” god?
            Zombies that walk on water are just as credible as murderers who go door-to-door killing all first-borns.
            You are pathetic.

          • NathansFather

            Well Beau. I do pity you.
            Perhaps someday God the Father will send someone someday to help you. I am clearly not the one.

            You have a real pride problem like I did.
            Making ourselves little gods is a prescription for ruin and disaster.
            I was clearly on my way to Hell until God the Father woke me up.

            No sense dialoguing with each other further past these old comments. New comment subjects are not necessary. If you won’t read all the proofs I posted it’s all on you. Be careful what you ask for with me. I will supply in spades 🙂

            I will not mark and block you yet.
            I only do so when I receive personal harassment or someone else like Jack is called names.
            Keep up civil dialogue with others please.
            Monty and you are being nice to each other.
            I will pray for you. Thank you for blessing me!

          • How interesting. You consider “civil discourse” accusing others of pride, harassment (presumably anonymously), making themselves little gods, and going to hell.

            … and you think I’m the one personally harassing?

          • Myles

            Moronic stupidity.

          • NathansFather

            Here we go again. I must report you and block. I will pray that God the Father confronts you with all of His Transcendent Power. Thank you for blessing me 🙂

          • Myles

            Truth and honesty repulse you.

          • The mathematical Proof for Christianity: garbage.

          • NathansFather

            Nope. I think it’s pretty good. I have a ton of sources. You chose not to read them with comprehension and check them in Scripture. You see I have been at this prayer closet time in earnest generally 3 hours a day (now that I am retired) and on fire a very long time now. Get confronted directly by the Living God sure can light a fire in one. It’s sooooo cool how the Holy Spirit flows when you allow it to speak. You aren’t allowing Him to speak with you now. I can always discern Truth when it is from The Spirit as I receive 2 or more sources that agree in topic in a very short time span. I am so enthused each day as a result to awaken to a fine new morning GOD has supplied.
            Don’t be a PUDskyite. You will NOT be taken seriously. This evil little entity is a hot mess.

          • NathansFather

            Nope. I think it’s pretty good. I have a ton of sources. You chose not to read them with comprehension and check them in Scripture. You see I have been at this prayer closet time in earnest generally 3 hours a day (now that I am retired) and on fire a very long time now. Get confronted directly by the Living God sure can light a fire in one. It’s sooooo cool how the Holy Spirit flows when you allow it to speak. You aren’t allowing Him to speak with you now. I can always discern Truth when it is from The Spirit as I receive 2 or more sources that agree in topic in a very short time span. I am so enthused each day as a result to awaken to a fine new morning GOD has supplied.
            Don’t be a PUDskyite. You will NOT be taken seriously. This evil little entity is a hot mess.

          • NathansFather

            http://www.gotquestions.org/QOTW.htm
            Question: “Is Jesus a myth? Is Jesus just a copy of the pagan gods of other ancient religions?”

            “… In conclusion, the claim that Jesus is a copy of mythological gods
            originated with authors whose works have been discounted by academia, contain logical fallacies, and cannot compare to the New Testament Gospels, which have withstood nearly 2,000 years of intense scrutiny. The alleged parallels between Jesus and other gods disappear when the original myths are examined. The Jesus-is-a-myth theory relies on selective descriptions, redefined words, and false assumptions.

            Jesus Christ is unique in history, with His voice rising above all false gods’ as He asks the question that ultimately determines a person’s eternal destiny: “Who do you say I am?” (Matthew 16:15)…”

          • Jesus wasn’t a myth. He was a 1st century apocalyptic rabbi.

          • NathansFather

            Sigh… you really should read all the proof links and download the eBooks. Don’t be lazy!

          • I’ll do that when you’ve linked to actual scholars, as opposed to dim-witted preachers.

          • Myles

            More foolishness. Zombies walk on water all the time.
            Your attempted refutation lacks sense and facts.

          • Myles

            Questionable sources to back up foolishness, congratulations on your mental inability to sort fact from fiction.

          • Myles

            Questionable sources to back up foolishness, congratulations on your mental inability to sort fact from fiction.

          • NathansFather

            Part 3

            Question of the Day > Does The Bible Accurately Foretell The Future? –
            Read/Watch in entirety: Does The Bible Accurately Foretell The Future?
            http://faithinthenews.com/does-the-bible-accurately-foretell-the-future/

          • NathansFather

            Part 4

            1. Messianic Prophecy Bible History Online
            http://www.bible-history.com/old-testament/the-messiah.html

            2. The Story of the Bible
            A Harmony of the Life of Jesus – Four gospel accounts in harmony.
            http://www.bible-history.com/jesus/

          • NathansFather

            Part 5
            Biblical Archaeology – Bible History Newsletter.
            Free eBooks here by joining the Newsletter.
            eMail delivery daily

            https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/free-ebooks/
            Who Was Jesus? Exploring the History of Jesus’ Life
            Jesus is the central figure of Christianity, the world’s largest religion. As a teacher in first-century Galilee, he influenced thousands. Yet many questions today surround this enigmatic person. This eBook examines the history of Jesus’ life, from where he was born, where he grew up and whether there is extra-Biblical evidence for his existence.

          • NathansFather

            Part 6

            Biblical Archaeology

            More eBooks available for download from Biblical Archaeology [here are some more, they have many, many scientific and unearthing of discoveries that indeed the Bible account is TRUE.

            So are you willing to download these or are you going to be in the mold of PUDskyites? Will you read these proofs or continue to reject the proofs? Are you really logical? Do you understand statistics? Do you reject real objects unearthed for all to see?

            The choice is yours. Just like letting go of your “litte god” pride for humility that there is indeed A Great God Almighty I AM. It took until my early 50s when God the Father confronted me supernaturally with one whack on my head. The message was clear.

            Are you ready to listen this time stooopid rebellious pride-filled human? I have been callng and calling you all of your life.

            [See Part 7 for more detailed ebooks]

          • NathansFather

            Part 7 Biblical Archaeology ebooks

            1. Israel: An Archaeological Journey As the point where three of
            the world’s major religions converge, the history of ancient Israel is
            one of the richest and most complex in the world. This journey into
            archaeology, Israel and the Biblical world is free on the Bible History
            Daily website.

            2. Ten Top Biblical Archaeology Discoveries
            This
            free eBook brings together the exciting worlds of archaeology and the
            Bible in ten top Biblical archaeology discoveries! Learn the stories
            behind Biblical archaeology finds like the Pool of Siloam in Israel,
            where the Gospel of John says Jesus miraculously restored sight to a
            blind man.

            3. Exploring Genesis: The Bibles Ancient Traditions in Context
            Answer Biblical archaeology’s earliest questions

            4. Jerusalem Archaeology: Exposing the Biblical City
            Jerusalem
            lies at the heart of Biblical archaeology. Download an eBook featuring
            BAR articles to learn the results of some of the city’s most
            groundbreaking excavations.

            5. Paul: Jewish Law and Early
            Christianity In this latest publication from BAS, top Biblical scholars
            examine the controversial role of Jewish law and tradition in early
            Christianity. Paul, the apostle who wrote much of the New Testament,
            discussed the role of Judaism among Jesus’ followers in a number of his
            letters. Although Paul preached justification on the basis of faith in
            Christ, he was himself a Pharisee and addressed the role of Jewish
            traditions and the status of Israel in the new covenant.

          • NathansFather

            Now I have supplied ample proofs.
            I challenge you to read these and then get back with Monty and I.
            There are so many more sources of PROOF of the TRUTH,
            Be ready for the adventure of walking the saintly faith-filled journey to see the face of GOD.
            Signed…
            A sinner saved by the LOVE, MERCY, and GRACE of I AM alone and not of my works to be “good.” For there is NO GOOD apart from living in the Holy Spirit. Any human attempts to be good are as of dross as Saint Paul reminds us. (Dross -> ancient Koine Greek for * Feces *)

          • Myles

            Nothing has ever been more harmful and damaging to humanity than religion. Nobody, except leeches, has ever benefited from any religion. Sin is an imaginary disease requiring an imaginary cure. Some religious creep will sell it to you, if you have enough money.
            Like reality, morality has no connection to any religion.

          • Myles

            Nothing has ever been more harmful and damaging to humanity than religion. Nobody, except leeches, has ever benefited from any religion. Sin is an imaginary disease requiring an imaginary cure. Some religious creep will sell it to you, if you have enough money.
            Like reality, morality has no connection to any religion.

          • Doug Barron

            It’s fascinating to me; C.S. Lewis set out to prove the scriptures wrong; historically and logically incorrect. After many years of intense research and questioning, he came by logic to discover and verify the veracity of the Holy writ and the foundations of the writ. I have no scholarly apologetics to set forth. He does. I am not a scholar. He is. I know my journey, and my walk. Through four decades of searching, and rejection of “christian doctrine”, I went from complete rejection of our Creator Jesus Messiah, to complete logical acceptance. Then came His Holy Spirit with illumination.
            As Mr. Lewis; I did not make anyone else “prove this reality and logic to me, I went out and searched until I found an answer in logic to “one way or the other”.
            I have my answer. Logic is now reinforced in faith.
            I can’t walk out your coming to faith for you. You have to endeavor to accomplish this for yourself, as you seek with an honest, open heart.
            I will state this though; sweet faith tastes sooo good after you have chewed on the bitter herbs of logic for so many years! (But, I still love logic)! Old habits, you know..
            Happy hunting!

          • NathansFather

            The Koine Greek word for logic is Theos – GOD.
            http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/john/8-47.html
            John 8:47 KJV – Bible Study Tools – gear Strong’s Numbers.
            47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore* hear them not, because ye are not of God.
            God = theos
            http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/theos.html
            The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
            the Godhead, trinity a. God the Father, the first person in the trinity
            b. Christ, the second person of the trinity
            c. Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
            3. spoken of the only and true God a. refers to the things of God
            b. his counsels, interests, things due to him
            4. whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
            Press the Book names to find all the references in the New Testament with God addressed as Theos – PURE LOGIC.
            Man in and by himself is ILLogical. (ill meaning mentally ill – brain weak – and not capable of higher reasoning) Only through The Word can we gain wisdom. Without the Logic of Him we are fools!

            See my mentor’s glimpse to the divine past the veil to the Third Heaven. Few humans except those watchman on the wall have this gift.
            My High Tower: Seeing the World from His perspective
            “The Lord is… my High Tower and my Refuge.” 2 Samuel 22:2-3

          • Logos, not Theos.

          • NathansFather

            Both.

          • NathansFather

            Both.

          • Well, if your only logical argument boils down to “I think C.S. Lewis was logical and he converted”, then it doesn’t sound like you’ve applied any logic at all.

          • You don’t supply proofs at all.

          • NathansFather

            Oh John, here we go again…

          • NathansFather

            Oh John, here we go again…

        • Doug Barron

          There are ample proofs that automobiles exist. But can you prove to an insect, or an ape that they are real? I wonder…

          • Huh? What does an ape or an insect’s cognition have to do with their reality?

          • Monty

            Everything. Especially if one is run over by a truck. It’s a good point. The problem unbelievers suffer is spiritual blindness. They cannot see God. They are cognitively deficient. Now those who are born again have received spiritual eyesight and we can see God, not physically but spiritually. “The fool ridicules what he does not understand”. Old Latin proverb. When the bug gets splattered on the windscreen of you car it’s too late to warn it of the danger. It’s not too late for Christians to warn unbelievers. Yet.

          • NathansFather

            We are trying but we have so many people blinded by the mud in their eyes and stoppered ears. Pity them! Refer them to God even with proof Monty they continue giving their opinions. Nothing concrete whatsoever we post The Truth. Saint Paul calls this dross -> feces.

          • Joseph Shaw

            How ironic that you think other people have “stoppered ears”, when you are the one blocking commenters. You are the king of stoppered ears.

          • Ah then you’re not offering any reason for me to believe your sad view of the world, you’re just repeating banal assertions.

          • Monty

            You should believe for just one reason. It is true. Your assertions are false, no matter how often you repeat them or how rude you are to those you disagree with.

          • Martin Hutchison

            Do not attempt to use logic, because faith is not logic, and it makes you look stupid to confuse the two. You also cannot just insist that someone believe.

          • Monty

            It is logical to accept the evidence and act accordingly. It is foolish to reject the evidence then shout down everyone who tries to reason with you. God in fact uses logic. Man is the only logical being and we are made in God’s image. Faith simply agrees with the evidence and acts on it. Some people are afraid of flying. Evidence says that is the safest means of transport. Because some people have fear, not faith, they still won’t fly. ” ‘Come, let us reason together’ says the Lord” (Isaiah 1:18)

          • Monty, I honestly don’t understand how you can think that is a convincing answer. You can’t make something True just by claiming it.

          • Martin Hutchison

            Not sure that “cognitively deficient” is fair. Cognition is intelligence. Prove you have a higher IQ and greater knowledge bank, then bring that up.

          • Monty

            Cognition is not intelligence as such. It is the process of thought and reason, at least according to the dictionary. Even before I became a Christian, I was convinced that there must be a God. I looked at the moonless night sky, miles from any artificial light and there was no moon. I saw the stars and said to myself, “There must be a God”. I did not know at the time that the bible said that the heavens declare God’s glory. I have maybe a little above average IQ and 66 years knowledge and life experience. That makes me no better or worse than anyone else. What I do have is “spiritual eyesight”, which is able to see spiritual things. I know a guy with a Mensa IQ (165) who is a believer. My dad was a Mensa IQ but an atheist. Intelligence is not the point here.

          • Martin Hutchison

            I have a entry-level Mensa IQ, but didn’t really believe until I experienced what I would call the presence of the Holy Ghost watching over my children.

          • Martin Hutchison

            I have a entry-level Mensa IQ, but didn’t really believe until I experienced what I would call the presence of the Holy Ghost watching over my children.

          • NathansFather

            One of my Pastors quoted a very well known Pastor (unfortunately I forget his name – I claim advanced age) Paraphrasing…. that Pastor wanted his mission to be right outside the Gates of Heaven. 🙂 Right there where the rubber meets the road as it were…. the very last physical breath of the lost person.

          • Martin Hutchison

            You missed the point. You may believe that Newtonian physics describes the laws of nature perfectly in 1920, but some of what you see is driven by quantum mechanics. In 1920 you have no way to see it, but it helps define your reality anyway. Actually, flip to 2017. Do these laws and theories help define our reality, even if we don’t fully understand it? But that is just mental masturbation. Ask yourself if the world would be a better place if we all tried to live in a WWJD world. Beats the crap out of a “WW Mohammed do” or “what would Marx do” or “what would Nietzsche do” or heaven forbid, “what would a foul Womyn’s Studies Major do”.

          • That’s a point?

        • Monty

          Where the bible touches on what is deemed “scientific” it is accurate. While a lot of false religions had the world as flat, the bible states that it is round. Some cultures had the world resting on a being, e.g. Atlas or giant turtle. The bible says that the earth hangs on nothing. Genesis tells us that water originated from vents in the ground – just like scientists believe now. Genesis states that God created flora and fauna according to species. And that is what happens in nature. There are many adaptations for sure. But they are not new species. To call adaptation “evolution” is intellectually dishonest.

        • Martin Hutchison

          Don’t let that get you. Evolution denial was 80% of why I spent most of my life as an atheist. That, and really, really crappy theological answers to my early questions from my Grandmother’s Priest. I think Christians need to focus on the New Testament. The Old Testament has many unbelievable elements that cannot be accepted at face value, in my view. The story of Noah is very, very silly, and the whole God-Abraham dynamic is idiotic and even evil. I reconcile my admiration for Jesus and faith in his word with the OT by considering the source. Jesus tried to reform the Jews. He failed. Point blank. He saved some people, but the Jewish religion and social structure was corrupt, immoral, dishonest, and so many of it’s members. They had him killed, and mainstream Jews are still at war with Christ and his message. I was shocked to read an editoral a few years ago in the Jerusalem Post that for Jews to celebrate Christmas with Christian friends was worse than the Holocaust. WTF?? Yet we are supposed to believe that the OT, which was written by and for the old corrupt Jews is the literal word of God, even with God’s supposed strange fixation on penises and human sacrifice? Even with the story of Noah, which is an idiot’s version of “why are there fish fossils on mountainsides”, the tower of Babel which is utterly moronic (God feared humans reaching heaven without his permission? God caused a breakdown in communication and the resulting wars because he was peeved that his creations tried to reach for more?) As to evolution, it is undeniable, we see in in micro form all the time (dog breeding, drug resistant bacteria…), and I think you have to be rather simple if you think the earth is only 5k years old. Have someone who thinks that explain dinosaur bones. All that verifiable stupidity comes from the OT, written by Jews, still believed (in theory) by Jews- or at least the 5% that are not actually atheists.

          • Please leave me out of your anti-semitic ravings.

          • Martin Hutchison

            So you love you some Jewish action, but dare Christian raise his head… So maybe you are not so much Mr. Atheist frustrated at Christian “illogic”, but a secular Jew continuing the propaganda war against Christ?

          • I have strong criticisms for ideologies – not people.

            Do you realize how much you sound like a Nazi? Or perhaps that’s what you’re going for …

          • Martin Hutchison

            I’m sorry, but sometimes people do need criticism for their behavior. Cowards fear needed confrontation. And the truth is, Jews mostly think Jesus was a fraud. But when they say it or act on it, I guess Christians are supposed to be good little slaves and accept it? When George Soros and his minions come after us, we are supposed to treat them as just being concerned about the 1st Amendment, when in fact they are very selective about it’s application, and like to call people anti-Semetic when free speech calls them out for current or biblical actions? Where do I get my magic critical amnesty card? Oh wait, straight white Christian male, I don’t get one.

          • Nobody gets an amnesty card for racism.

          • Martin Hutchison

            Is Jewish a race or Religion or culture?

          • All three. But the sort of blanket accusation you throw at Jews is most definitely antisemitic. It’s also bizarre. There are billions of people in the world who don’t subscribe to Christianity or the divinity of Jesus (myself included), but you choose to focus all your venom against the tiny fraction of that number that happen to be Jews.

          • Martin Hutchison

            Because they should know better, and other than Muslims, the Jewish religion spawns more Christian haters (based on actual activism) than any other, despite it being a dying religion.

          • You’ve gotta be kidding?! They should know better?! Why because Jews today were around 2000 years ago?!

            Yeah, you are definitely a Nazi …

          • NathansFather

            Part 1

            YES Martin, George Soros is one SICKY inDUHvidual and dangerous! He is the mid-level poster boy for the illuminati (worshippers of the “prince of light” lucifer.)

            YES these people exist. And YES there is indeed a lucifer. His greatest trick is convincing some humans he does not exist. I am amazed people can’t figure this out… just look at the Vegas Shooter. My goodness folks wake up! Only lucifer can supply that many demons that must have inhabited him.

            Top 10 Reasons George Soros Is Dangerous
            (have your puke bags ready people the visage is evil as all get out!)
            http://humanevents.com/2011/04/02/top-10-reasons-george-soros-is-dangerous/

          • NathansFather

            Part 2 George Soros ( I do much more research than just Berean inquiries of Scripture. I make very good use of the time I still have been afforded 🙂

            Bookmark this! Use it often!
            NNDB Database tracking the whole world
            http://www.nndb.com

            George Soros – Biography
            http://www.nndb.com/people/293/000023224/
            Spider web, press icon, expand, or isolate nodes, read profiles
            http://mapper.nndb.com/start/?id=23224

            Shadow Governmen Statistics Analysis Behind and Beyond Government Economic Reporting
            http://www.shadowstats.com/

            [Lots more in parts coming… I really dislike the window character limits]

          • NathansFather

            Part 3

            How George Soros Singlehandedly Created the European Refugee Crisis—and Why
            http://sgtreport.com/2016/07/how-george-soros-singlehandedly-created-the-european-refugee-crisis-and-why/

            Increasingly, Soros Is Seen Behind the Break-Up of Europe
            http://sgtreport.com/2016/07/increasingly-soros-is-seen-behind-the-break-up-of-europe/

            The Devil Behind the Democrats – George Soros (DemonRats)
            http://hubpages.com/politics/The-Devil-Behind-the-Democrats-George-Soros

          • NathansFather

            Part 4 – The Shadow Party of George Soros et al (CFR, Bilderberg, Trilateral Commission, Alinkyites etc)

            David Horowitz Freedom Center
            http://www.horowitzfreedomcenter.org/

            Discover the Networks – to the George Soros filthy destroyer
            http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=589

            Guide to the George Soros Network
            http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=589

            The Shadow Party
            http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/Articles/ShadowPartyandTheShadowGov.pdf

            Shadow Party
            http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6706

          • NathansFather

            Part 5 – Fraud of Soros et al illuminati

            The real voter fraud
            http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=1666

            Dominion Voting Systems
            (See their field studies Soros and operatives owned in Canada and Colorado)
            (They stole the Canadian Election and gave it to communist Trudeau)
            http://www.dominionvoting.com

            See their field studies which perfectly explains the fake “Russians did it ruse of “dingy Harry”

            AND how the wiccan madam secretary got more votes than there were registered voters!

            Dominion was hacked and the Demos panicked. Probably when the server thingy happened at the convention??? Remember the poor whistleblower was murderered? Seth Moore.

            Despite Mr. I can elect anyone I want by cheating Mr. Trump still won it. Explains why the wiccan madam didn’t break a sweat on whether she would win despite the former dictator having Valerie Jarrett expose the secret closet insecure betray us email server.

            One weakness they all HATE each other. Each fighting to be the number 1 buddy of the evil one. Their lust for power is unimaginable to rule the world. PRIDE MAMMON SOUL DEATH BLACK HEARTS.

          • I have strong criticisms for ideologies – not people.

            Do you realize how much you sound like a Nazi? Or perhaps that’s what you’re going for …

          • Martin Hutchison

            So you love you some Jewish action, but dare Christian raise his head… So maybe you are not so much Mr. Atheist frustrated at Christian “illogic”, but a secular Jew continuing the propaganda war against Christ?

      • Mark Mac Donald

        lmao, you do realize evolution has nothing to do with the existence of a god? Even if it was disproved completely it still wouldn’t take you any closer to a god.
        Watch the strawman fall….

        • Monty

          You are quite right. I do not base my arguments on what I do not believe. I mention evolution because It’s the standard fall back position for most who oppose Christianity. A preemptive strike if you will. However, if not evolution, what else? There are not a lot of other even remotely plausible theories.

          • Mark Mac Donald

            see, that’s the thing.
            ‘I don’t know’ is a perfectly acceptable answer. But just because we don’t know does not allow you to insert god as the answer.

          • Monty

            Gee, sorry if free speech on a Christian blog offends you. What are you doing here?
            You don’t know. That would not be a problem if the consequences were not so serious. I do know. You can also know but you would have to be willing to seek God honestly and sincerely. God has revealed Himself to millions, including many doubters. He will reveal Himself to you, if you really want to know.

          • NathansFather

            Mark and the other PUDskyites really should move along to a place they can trade their hatreds back and forth.
            Patheos has an Atheist forum.
            They obviously have nothing else to do but bother those of us who follow The Way, Truth, and Life. Guess what? We are unshakeable and they can’t kill Jesus Iesous Y’shua inside us.
            Their father of liars, thieves, and murderers keeps them coming back but it is too late. They couldn’t kill Jesus on The Cross.
            They are defeated!

            Sigh… so deluded are they.
            We pity them.
            But still it would be so much sweeter if they weren’t here.
            So many posts to go through of useless “arguments” especially the filth that our resident demoniac PUD he/she/it is inhabited by demon(s) that keep he/she here posting it. So excessive-compulsive and out of control.

            Don’t bother addressing anyone who personally harasses people. I finally concluded to just mark them and block. No sense seeing their posts of hatred right? I used to try to respond to them but life is short!

          • What hatred have I shown? I am a humanist who thinks that compassion, healing mercy and loving kindness are what helps to heal human relationships. I am also an atheist, who thinks that evidence for the existence of the biblical, violent god is pretty low. I don’t necessarily rule out some form of “god” but I even think this is unlikely, though if God is the power of love then persons who believe in such love are likely to be helped in the healing of their emotions and relationships.

          • I am not sure why you keep attacking Pud. Shouldn’t you, as a Christian, show compassion, healing mercy and loving kindness towards Pud knowing that he/she has a different point of view to you.

          • NathansFather

            NOPE. I am not attacking PUD the human he/she (still up to debate) since IT won’t prove IT is human – IT is always screaming for us to prove this or that.

            If IT can’t prove it’s human why should we bother? IT never reads the proof we supply. Just immediately fires back with filthy obscene name calling and all manner of evils. Guess what that entity is??? YEP a demon or demons.

            Read IT’s manifesto yet? It wants to wipe out all Christians on earth. NO JOKE. I think I posted it here on this article. So make nice to IT? NOPE. He is directly attacking GOD.

            IT is God’s enemy. All we can do for IT now is ask for a Mighty Confrontation of the Living GOD. God the Father will either do so or not. His will and not ours. Woe be to those who oppose the awesome Living God. God will not be mocked!

          • NathansFather

            NOPE. I am not attacking PUD the human he/she (still up to debate) since IT won’t prove IT is human – IT is always screaming for us to prove this or that.

            If IT can’t prove it’s human why should we bother? IT never reads the proof we supply. Just immediately fires back with filthy obscene name calling and all manner of evils. Guess what that entity is??? YEP a demon or demons.

            Read IT’s manifesto yet? It wants to wipe out all Christians on earth. NO JOKE. I think I posted it here on this article. So make nice to IT? NOPE. He is directly attacking GOD.

            IT is God’s enemy. All we can do for IT now is ask for a Mighty Confrontation of the Living GOD. God the Father will either do so or not. His will and not ours. Woe be to those who oppose the awesome Living God. God will not be mocked!

          • Mark Mac Donald

            you do know? Really?
            That’s funny. I’m told you believe on faith. Why do you need faith if you have proof?
            And btw, imaginary beings can’t reveal themselves. sorry. That’s a delusion you should get checked on

          • Martin Hutchison

            Nor does it allow you to deny it.

          • Mark Mac Donald

            actually, it does!
            Logic dictates that you withhold belief until there is sufficient evidence. It is the default position.
            If I claim a leprechaun lives in my backyard, you have EVERY right (and it is proper) to deny it if I cannot prove it

          • Martin Hutchison

            Many scientific theories and laws and discoveries began with a gut feel, with proof only coming after years of painstaking research. Following your thought, the proof has to come before the belief? I would say there is a point for proof, but as we know there is none for faith. But lack of proof proves nothing one way or the other. Now if you are determining a course of action, you use proof as part of your risk mitigation strategy. So I will not give my earthly possessions to any church (other than offerings) unless it is for a provably good cause, like supporting AWANA, or drug recovery efforts etc. Do I need faith in the literal bible to know that kids who do AWANA have moral and social advantages? Do I need proof of Noah to know that if we strive to be good people, we will make the world better? Does the story of walking on water keep me from knowing that my dear friend, a music minister at a Baptist church in KY, gives his heart out (and his money) to support a poor community in ways that leave no one ashamed of their poverty? If your pet leprechaun makes you a better man, great. But too many people are inventing poor substitutes for the brotherhood of Christ, liberalism among them.

          • Mark Mac Donald

            Lack of proof, means a logical and reasonable person will withhold belief until there is sufficient proof.
            As far as doing good, I suggest one does good IN SPITE of their beliefs in a god.
            It is inherently wrong to make life decisions (ex homosexuality is an abomination) based on a religious BELIEF and no evidence
            The very fact that you believe you have a RELATIONSHIP with a SUPERNATURAL BEING is preposterous!
            I contend, just as many people would do just as much good without a god. It is who they are.
            Your bible is nothing more than a collection of terrorist stories from thousands of years ago. None of the religious claims can be independently verified and can therefore not be used as reliable

          • Martin Hutchison

            Actually, in the case of homosexuality, the religious view follows eons-old societal rules and norms. It is normal to not be comfortable around people who fake or mimic being the opposite sex. Survival (of the species) depends on this aversion. Yet liberals, supposedly all about science with their Arts and Humanities degrees and emotional vagitating that substitutes for reason, want to deny human nature and force us to behave in a manner pleasing to their politics.

          • Mark Mac Donald

            the fact you feel ‘uncomfortable’ is not a reason to deny rates you fricken imbecile. By that logic, homosexuals feel uncomfortable around heterosexuals so don’t give them rights either. What an idiotic and desperate argument

          • Mark Mac Donald

            the fact you feel ‘uncomfortable’ is not a reason to deny rates you fricken imbecile. By that logic, homosexuals feel uncomfortable around heterosexuals so don’t give them rights either. What an idiotic and desperate argument

          • Martin Hutchison

            By uncomfortable, I mean it is against the subconscious species survival imperative. Did you not get that basic concept? Such a simple scientific concept, but you, being a liberal, cannot let such a minor thing stand between you and your liberal virtue signalling and validation seeking.

          • Martin Hutchison

            By uncomfortable, I mean it is against the subconscious species survival imperative. Did you not get that basic concept? Such a simple scientific concept, but you, being a liberal, cannot let such a minor thing stand between you and your liberal virtue signalling and validation seeking.

          • Martin Hutchison

            Actually, in the case of homosexuality, the religious view follows eons-old societal rules and norms. It is normal to not be comfortable around people who fake or mimic being the opposite sex. Survival (of the species) depends on this aversion. Yet liberals, supposedly all about science with their Arts and Humanities degrees and emotional vagitating that substitutes for reason, want to deny human nature and force us to behave in a manner pleasing to their politics.

          • NathansFather

            Here is today’s Bible Study Verse

            ESV Verse of the Day
            October 6
            2 Thessalonians 1:11-12

            11 To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

            We post to the GLORY of GOD.

    • NathansFather

      Ever read Genesis? Guess what it exactly describes the evolution of life from the instant of creation. As to days and nights… the word is YOM. That has different quantities besides the human 24 hrs. in which we live. GOD is timeless and humans are linear. How does that work? I have no earthly (grin) idea. I just know it is true. Me question the Great I AM? Not on a bet! He is GOD and me NOT.

      • Nope. I’ve read Genesis; there is no description of evolution in Genesis.

        • NathansFather

          Of course there is! Starting with Chapter 1.
          Day and night is in God’s creation of eons and not our 24/7 human linear time.
          YOM is the Ancient Hebrew word for time.
          God is timeless.
          So the creation is based on Him and His schedule.
          The Hebrews had no word past thousands.
          He addressed Moses to what he knew.
          Today we can count way past quadrillion.
          Not that I have ever tried Ha!

          • Interesting. Despite your religious assertions, you have yet to show any evidence of evolution in Genesis.

  • NathansFather

    We have had several people that think The GOD of the Old Testament committed unwarranted mass genocide. Also are some apostates that have been mislead by people making Jesus soft and squishy. Jesus actually was more strict in the New Testament than in the Old Testament. Learn here who these Canaanites were who needed destroying. His will be done and not ours. Only He who sits on The Throne is the Righteous Judge choosing between the quick and the dead.

    1, Bullinger Appendix 25. THE NEPHILIM, OR “GIANTS” Of GEN. 6, &c. (Consider Goliath)
    https://levendwater.org/companion/append25.html

    2. Is Divine Genocide Defensible?
    October 5, 2017 by Scot McKnight

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2017/10/05/divine-genocide-defensible/

    • Mark Mac Donald

      god is a murdering freak (if you believe that bible nonsense)
      He doesn;t care that he murders babies.
      But, go ahead! Worship this douchebag.

  • NathansFather

    Here is a new devotional by Pastor Jack. I get all of his each day and enjoy them all!

    How much are you willing to give up to get more people to heaven?
    http://www.rhetoricaljesus.com/how-much-are-you-willing-to-give-up-to-get-more-people-to-heaven

    I can only speak for myself. I have been on the front lines taking much abuse when exposing evil .
    Just like Pastor Jack and Berit I have been threatened physically also.
    But what can man do to us? Nothing. We are not afraid of dying physically.

    We cannot be killed Holy Spiritually but many continue to try.
    This is to be expected.
    John 17.

    Our faith is strong as we are armed with the Whole Armor of God.
    The Sword we wear is the Word of offense.
    The rest of the Armor protects us from the fiery darts of satan.
    http://www.crossroad.to/text/articles/armorofgod.html

    See: ” Spiritual Warfare ”
    220 results found containing all search terms. 3 pages of results.http://www.crossroad.to/search_files/search.php?zoom_sort=0&zoom_query=spiritual+warfare+&zoom_per_page=100&zoom_and=1

    Pages with the highest number of keyword mentioned.
    Occult
    http://www.crossroad.to/News/occult.html
    Spiritual Warfare
    http://www.crossroad.to/News/spiritual-warfare.html
    Persecution
    http://www.crossroad.to/News/Persecution/index.html
    Good or Evil
    http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/011/1-warfare.htm
    The Unseen Foe Behind Rising Evil
    http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/011/1-warfare.htm

    Warrior on people! We won at The Cross through Christ’s Victory!

    • Mark Mac Donald

      thanks but no thanks
      Anybody that believes on faith proves he has no interest in truth.
      Heaven and hell?
      How about this? GROW UP. YOU DIE AND THEN YOU ARE DEAD . END OF DISCUSSION.

      Sorry! Fiction is still fiction no matter how HARD you believe

  • NathansFather

    Jack you are loading the dice today…. goes well with your Rhetorical Jesus and my comments…. 😉
    The Holy Spirit indeed flows today just like everyday for believers of The Way!

    4 Reasons To Not Fear Anything – from Christian Quotes by Pastor Jack
    https://www.christianquotes.info/images/4-reasons-to-not-fear-anything

  • NathansFather

    What part of you are blocked don’t you understand Beau?
    I see lots of blocked poster with no comments.

    Bliss for me and frustrating for you.
    Too bad so sad.

    I have already prayed for you so its sandal dusting time.

    Enjoy bloviating to yourself.
    It is YOU that has nothing to contribute.

    I see absolutely nothing you have posted with any sources ever…
    Bloviating oh yes lots. Name calling Yeppers here they come…

    Go away tr0ll to your lair over at the Atheist Forum on Patheos.
    You obviously are not here to glorify the Lord.
    Go worship your father.
    But guess what he hates you. He is complete hate.

    • Very interesting. I’ve never “blocked” another commenter before. It’s a curious thing to do given that everyone else can continue to see my comments. I’m not frustrated at all. I get to continue in the conversation, while you simply yell “troll” and run away. Very odd behavior.

      • Joseph Shaw

        Good point. “Research Berean” can only block his own view of your comments; nobody else’s. He is effectively sticking his fingers in his ears, closings his eyes, and screaming at you. Very mature.

    • Joseph Shaw

      Actually, Beau’s continued comments aren’t frustrated at all. You’ve only blocked yourself from seeing his comments. The rest of can still read and interact with Beau just fine.

      • NathansFather

        Each must choose who they block. I do not willingly place myself in position to respond to such rude and hostile people. Nor do I want to see anything they have to say on my screen. Life is short. Mine shorter than most here I suspect. But then anyone of our next breaths may be our last. Are you ready to die physically? If you enjoy his posts read on.

        • Joseph Shaw

          From all I’ve read here, Beau is perfectly reasonable and you are the rude and hostile troll.

          • NathansFather

            If you note this IS a Christian forum. So I have to ask why does an atheist (or whatever the accuser is?) doing on our channel? THAT is being a tr0ll.

            Get real! He needs to trot along and go to the Atheist Forum here on Patheos. Now if I posted on the Atheist Forum I would be a tr0ll over there! I pray for you that your reasoning facility is cleansed of all illogic human charges unwarranted.

            The sick tr0lls here are the proselytizers. PUD being the poster child (still can’t prove IT is human 🙂 They operate as misery loves company syndrome. NOPE we chose not to be miserable here. Yes, atheism is a religion. The useless rituals of chantings and dogma of those with no self-control.

            http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Proselytizers
            https://duckduckgo.com/?q=athesism+is+a+religion&t=hc&ia=web

          • Joseph Shaw

            This is a public forum. No one is prohibiting input based on their individual beliefs (what an echo chamber that would be!) And you are the rudist commenter on post, telling other people to leave!

            Who do you think you’re fooling with such a jerk move?

          • NathansFather

            This is a Christian forum. Why do you persist in fomenting trouble? Are you really that far gone you don’t get it? Hullloooo….. I will pray for you. Time to mark and block. Thank you for blessing me.

          • Joseph Shaw

            Most forums on Patheos encourage and are unafraid of a broad variety of perspectives. It doesn’t seem that you understand the concept of a public forum. But, by all means, block any participant that you like from your personal feed. It doesn’t block us from any other users, and you’re the one who ends up looking silly – just sticking your fingers in your ears.

          • Joseph Shaw

            Go right ahead and block. Maybe you could put your fingers in your ears, shut your eyes real tight, and yell “la, la, la, la, …”

            See if that helps …

          • Research Berean is loopy.

          • Joseph Shaw

            He’s a self-righteous internet troll.

  • Monty

    I don’t know how my posts appear on your screens. Some of mine have wrong line breaks. I edit the breaks out but it does not always work. I don’t know what I can do about it.