A 10-year-old writes Kirk Cameron: “Please stop bullying”

Dear Kirk Cameron:

Hello. My name is Kaitlin Eldridge. I am ten years old. My brother Matt is seven. We live in San Diego, California. John Shore lives two houses down from us. He is friends with my dad. Sometimes John babysits me and Matt. He is a very funny person. Matt and I love him.

Yesterday John was babysitting us when I was writing a book report. I found this picture of you online. You used to be so cute!!!

I asked John why you were on so many news sites. He said it was because of some things you said about gay people. My uncle Tom is gay. He and his best friend Gary have been together since before I was even born. They live in University Heights. They have three dogs. I completely love them both.

Here is what I learned you said about gay people:

I think that it’s – it’s – it’s unnatural. I think that it’s – it’s detrimental, and ultimately destructive to so many of the foundations of civilization.

I like to be sure of what people say, so on an online dictionary I looked up some of these words. Unnatural means: not normal; inhuman or monstrous; WICKED. Detrimental means: harmful: DAMAGING. Destructive means: designed or tending to hurt or destroy.

I asked John if what you really and actually said is that people like my uncles Tom and Gary are wicked and harmful monsters who like to destroy things. He said I should write to ask you that question. So that’s what I’m doing!

Mr. Cameron, I hope you did not say those mean things. If you did that would be bullying. Bullying makes people so sad sometimes they kill themselves. Sometimes Matt gets bullied at school by boys who are detrimental. They make Matthew cry so hard. I hate those boys.

Would you please write and tell me if you said those bad things about Tom and Gary? I know sometimes the news makes big mistakes. Maybe this is one of those times! I hope that it is, and that you never said what they said you did. But if it was not a mistake, and you really do think Tom and Gary are monsters that are evil—then guess what? You are invited to Matt’s birthday party at Tom and Gary’s house! It is on April 14.

Please come! Please do not be afraid to meet Tom and Gary. As soon as you meet them, you will know how funny, smart, and nice they are. If you do not love them so much that you want to be their friend forever, John has 100% guaranteed that he will pay for your airplane ticket here and back. Plus food! So there is no excuse for you not to come!

Mr. Cameron, please come to Matt’s birthday and meet Tom and Gary. I know they will be very glad to make your acquaintance. Once you meet them you will never want to say bad things about gay people again. Then you can tell all the news the real truth, which is that gay people live and have dogs and love each other just the same as anyone else.

Thank you for reading this letter. If you ask him, John will very happily send you directions to Tom and Gary’s house.

I will save you a cupcake!

Sincerely yours,


"to show how out of touch with reality nicky is....that 'baby' is an adult. Which ..."

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  • I love this girl and that you babysit :)) you just went up like two more notches in my book !!

  • Let’s read this & pick up on it. Asking Mr Cameron to agree to the invitation.

  • Kirk Childress via Facebook

    shared… btw, it’s been bad enough seeing messages to Cameron addressed to “Kirk” the last week or so… seeing him referred to as “Kirk C” totally creeped me out. gee, thanks!

  • Luthor Parks via Facebook


  • Oh, boy. Wow. Way to go, Kaitlin, way to go. Your little brother, your uncles, your neighbors, your family, your community and THE PLANET are so lucky to have people like you around them. Keep writing, sweetie.

  • Jamie Stanek via Facebook

    I got $5 says he won’t come, even if he reads it.

  • Kimberly Moser Musci Phillips via Facebook

    Out of the mouths of babes…

  • I posted it on his page,lol

  • Larry Petry via Facebook

    from what i read, Cameron was making a statement from a certain historical perspective. The idea of a letter from the ten year old, while emotionally and morally compelling, simply doesn’t address Cameron’s statement on the same grounds it was made. Does it?

  • Amanda Lasseter via Facebook

    what a sweet little girl

  • Larry Petry via Facebook

    (side note… i like your blog entries WAY more than your titles to them..) 🙂

  • my titles? I’m up for changing any better ones you can think of, for sure. (It’s what I MOST miss about magazine writing: subtitles!)

  • Mike Little via Facebook

    @Larry… really?

  • Larry Petry via Facebook

    take definition #5, and emphasize for emphasis. Fair?

  • ???

  • Larry Petry via Facebook

    i linked “unnatural” from dictionary dot com. It disappeared. :/

  • Larry Petry via Facebook

    i also used two forms of “emphasize” in one sentence. 🙁

  • Ellen (Armstrong) Wrona

    I reposted – this letter is amazing. If everyone shares it maybe we can make it go viral!

  • Diana

    Dear Kaitlin–You have written a very thoughtful letter, one that is full of compassion and grace. I hope Kirk Cameron reads it; I hope every person who has said awful things about anyone reads it. Thank you for sharing it with us.



  • Lymis

    Dear Kaitlin,

    Yes, Mr. Cameron did say all those things and more. I’m sorry you had to hear them.

    But he probably didn’t think he was saying anything bad about your Uncles, because people like Mr. Cameron don’t think they know anyone like your uncles. That’s silly, isn’t it? Because nice people like your uncles are all over the place, and most people who say the things like Mr. Cameron said don’t even want to meet them.

    But the good news is that your uncles don’t have to listen to him – they have wonderful people like you who say nice things to them and who are good friends to people like Matt. And one good person like you can make so much more difference than a hundred mean people.

    This is probably a good time for you to learn that just because someone is cute and on TV it doesn’t mean that they know what they are talking about. A lot of people make that mistake, and now you don’t have to.

    I think it is very nice of you to invite Mr. Cameron to the party, but I hope he doesn’t come, because Matt probably doesn’t want a mean person at his party. If Mr. Cameron does come, make sure you tell your uncles not to serve bananas, because Mr. Cameron has some really strange ideas about where bananas come from and when he talks about it makes people sad.

  • Becky

    He has a Facebook profile! Who’s going to post this link on his page?

  • Lymis


    A lot of people are starting to say that they know that Mr. Cameron has met a lot of nice people just like your uncles, and has met a lot of them on his walks in the park near his house.

    If that’s true, then maybe some day soon, Mr. Cameron will feel safe telling people how he really feels. And that would be a good thing. And if he does, I’m sure that will be in the news, too.

  • Leslie

    Katlin, you’re pretty darn lucky to have John babysit you! Or probably it’s the other way around…he’s lucky he gets to babysit such an amazing girl! I really hope Kirk Cameron takes you guys up on the offer.

  • Leslie

    Hold on, is it Katlin or Kaitlin? Sorry about that.

  • RFSJ

    Turns out Kirk’s FB page will not allow outside links. i tried to post this letter twice. In any case, you are a blessing, Kaitlin!

  • Mindi Palmer Fried via Facebook


  • Philip Healey

    Kirk Cameron later has defended himself with: “Marriage is almost as old as dirt, and it was defined in the garden between Adam and Eve. One man, one woman for life till death do you part.” Which bible was he reading? Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. This was a sin. Then they put on clothes and were thrown out of Eden. As a result, they made children, which doesn’t appear to have been God’s original desire for them. Is this the origin of marriage to which he refers? I’d rather an honest, impeccable love between any two human beings of whatever sex, than the sinful, guilt-ridden idea Cameron thrusts on us as the only right way. Literal biblical dogma shows a lack of critical thinking, but more often than not is an excuse to defend the indefensible.

  • Danielle Perata via Facebook

    Guess what, Kirk–you are NOT smarter than a fifth-grader!

  • Meggin King via Facebook

    Thank you for sharing this.

  • Melissa

    I’m sorry, but this letter seems a little contrived. Definitions? I highly doubt his use of unnatural means he thinks his gay friends are monstrous. (Wonderful sentiment, though.)

    I’ve been wrestling with various thoughts about Cameron’s appearance and, while I know this will be an unpopular opinion, I believe he did about as well as he could have done.

    I am a college-aged, liberal Christian. I believe marriage equality is the civil rights issue of my generation, and I hope we respond in a way that our future children will respect us for. We want conservative Christians to respect the views of others (like ours, or the LGBT community, or any other community with varying viewpoints.) Therefore, I feel like attacking Cameron is hypocritical. I believe Piers Morgan said Cameron’s comments were “brave” – I believe that adds a somewhat unnecessary positive connotation to the situation, but I can’t deny some grudging respect to Cameron for not skirting around the question when it was asked of him. He could have hemmed and hawed, changed the subject, or offered up an answer that was obviously not his own – but instead he carefully stated what his beliefs are.

    He said hurtful things about a group of people who just want to love another human being – awful. But there are so many things out there saying hurtful things about him, or his family. Do I wish we could sit down and have a heartfelt conversation? Yes. But do I also respect him for answering truthfully of a question asked of him? Yes. Its an antiquated viewpoint, but he has the right to express it, and I believe he did so in as respectful a manner as possible.

  • Here’s an interesting article for adults in the audience – found Kirk on page 2. Just to warn, Cracked.com isn’t exactly a site for kids to visit, at least if you want to shield them from liberal language and jokes about certain anatomical features… but I saw this and thought about that list-article I saw about Shows that Traumatized the Cast for Life:


    I kind of vaugely remember “Growing Pains” from the distant 1980s – one of those shows I watched when I was about seven years old. Has Cameron had any decent work since then? He seems like the kind of washed-up actor who only gets attention paid to him anymore because of the heartthrob he used to be and because of his general wackiness.

    Kirk, darling, the theory of Evolution doesn’t debunk God. Some of us can believe in both just fine. And gay is perfectly natural – it’s found in many animal species. (If you want, you can continue to argue that “natural isn’t always right” as my old church used to do, but you really cannot aruge that it is unnatural). I know you probably aren’t in the mode to listen to certain “apostates,” but maybe if you think a while and use your imagination a bit you can see why someone can identify as “gay and Christian” or “see Genesis in terms of symbol” and totally still be loved by God.

    *Shrug* – but mine is only advice to a has-been from a never-was.

  • It does definitely fall into the realm of “emotional appeal” rather than logical argument, but sometimes, things have to. Emotional appeals do win people over – look at politics or commericals.

  • Sharla

    This is just wonderful, and one reason I suspect that by the time Kaitlin and my nephews, and others their age, grow up, they’ll wonder what it was that Kirk Cameron and all the others who think like him were so freaked out about. I, and she, and my nephews, and so many others have grown up with nice people like her uncles in our lives, and we are unable to find any truth at all in the notion that there’s something wrong with them.

  • Philip Healey

    His comments were hardly “respectful” in any manner: “it’s unnatural. .. it’s detrimental, and ultimately destructive to so many of the foundations of civilization.” That is heavy, aggressive stuff and clearly puts his views at odds with those of any “college-aged, liberal Christian” or any modern, unbigoted thinker.

  • Shaun Conde

    That doesn’t seem like the writing of a ten year old, but I really hope it is because, man does she nail it and drive it home.

  • Lymis


    I would agree more with you if this was a situation where Kirk Cameron was simply an actor who happened to be a conservative Christian with right-wing views, who was either in a new show or had written a book, or whatnot, and got blindsided on a television interview and “bravely” simply told the truth about his personal beliefs.

    He’s not.

    He’s best known for his acting, especially for his role on Growing Pains, but for years now, he has also been a professional right-wing television and radio person whose message has been consistently anti-science, anti-gay, and anti-secular society. He’s been involved in things like passing off rewritten copies of Darwin’s Origin of Species that were specifically crafted to make the work seem like nonsense, and is possibly most famous for a truly tin-foil-hat explanation that bananas are irrefutable proof of the existence of God and an inarguable invalidation of evolution.

    Questioning him on his anti-gay views is perfectly valid – since he, himself, has positioned himself as holding them as part of his career. He isn’t quietly holding those views – he’s making a career out of them, which puts him solidly in the group of people who are telling lies that they know are lies and actively hurting people in the name of a false form of Christianity.

    A single anti-gay comment should probably not have set off this sort of firestorm, but this wasn’t a single anti-gay comment. It’s just a single anti-gay comment that happened to get a lot of publicity in an anti-gay career.

  • Melissa

    His odds are very much at odds with mine. I don’t respect his comments in the least, but in the manner he delivered them – mainly because I’ve heard much more aggressive attacks on the LGBT community and felt he was doing his best to present his views in a reserved way. I understand my comments are controversial and most will disagree, though.

  • Melissa

    Very true. I never thought of it that way.

  • Philip Healey

    Well put. And very informative. I didn’t know the half of it.

  • Philip Healey

    John, “the” letter is really well written and truly captures the mind of an innocent questioning the incongruous words of a bigot. Thanks for giving us that viewpoint.

  • gretchen

    Kirk, I really hope you go! This girl is Jesus in action. Something that your conservative views are missing.

  • I want to actually meet one conservative who changes when faced with facts and real people. I have yet to meet one. I’ll share though in hopes that there are still some who are not nuts out there.

  • noneya

    kirk is right- we don’t need gays destroying familky values and contributing to demise of this country

  • Lymis

    How true! So it’s lucky that we aren’t doing any of that, isn’t it.

  • Kaitlin rocks. How lucky you are, John, to have such lovely friends.

  • Linda


    John if it is not the writingof a 10 year old I hope you will pay my way to Matt’s b-day party. All in all I hope Kirk C. goes to the party and really gets the idea that gay people like people with autism or any other ” difference” are just that PEOPLE. Who should be treated with respect and not bullied. I was wondering to day if we took money and religion off the table and et everyone just be themselves what the world would look like. If people actaly had to figre out for themselves where the stood in life and what kind of creative things would happen becasue no one would be forced to do what they were doing for the sake of money or religion. guess I had better add politics in there as well.

    Any way thanks Katlin for your honesty and tell Matt happy birthday, and the uncles hi.

  • That is precious!!!!!!

  • Jennifer Hiett Allen via Facebook

    Just WOW! I live very close to San Diego and wish I could meet this girl and thank her for her bravery! She has a beautiful heart!

  • em

    Big “awwwww” cute factor, but Mr. Cameron is as entitled to his opinion as this little girl is to hers.

  • T. Krasner

    The kid should address the letter to God. Cameron’s views are based in scripture. God is not ‘pro’ homosexual activity — much as you all love to deny it while then calling youreselves Chrsitians.

  • Denise

    Well, no, actually.

    Writing her letter to God would be redundant on several levels.

    God already knows what’s in this little girl’s heart–just Who do you think moved her to reach out with so much love, openness and compassion?

    God already knows that gay people “live and have dogs and love each other just the same as anyone else”, because that’s exactly what He created them to do.

    Kaitlin is more Christlike in reaching out to someone she disagrees with than anyone who comes to a blog merely to knock those who read it.

  • cat rennolds

    We have at least 2 on this blog. Read through the comments some time. It does happen, to conservatives who are truly seeking the Word.

  • Nicole

    I will say, I don’t think he believes he is telling lies. I think he believes what he says, wrong as it may be.

  • cat rennolds

    everyone’s entitled to an opinion. everyone else is entitled to either agree or disagree. neither one of those tells you very much about which one is factual, as in, true regardless of what anyone’s opinions are.

    but this little girl checked her definitions. I think Mr. cameron made his up.

  • Nicole

    Hello, Yomy! I’m Nicole and I am a conservative Christian whose views were changed when faced with facts and real people. Specifically my gay, Christian friends. Nice to meet you! 🙂

  • Amy L.P.

    To those who feel the same as Kirk C. if what he says is true.. Is there any proof to this? When I was younger I was told that gays are bad, messed up people, that god hates.

    For one, I didn’t know God had a negative emotion such as HATE. I thought he was loving, forgiving, and understanding.

    Two, I could be wrong, but has anyone ever herd of a gay terrorist? I haven’t.

    Three, I’ve herd more reports about religious men in sexual acts with little boys than any gay person. And No the priest, fathers, etc… were not gay. They were Pedophiles. There is a difference.

    If the world was under populated I could see people being upset because it threatens existence to mankind. There are too many foster homes, orphans, and homeless kids out there. If two people who are gay wanted to adopted a child, give it everything and more, spoil it the way you would like to with your kids…. Why deny the child that love, home, and security?

    I am open minded to comments but not bashing. Do not bash me for stating facts that I’ve seen with my own eyes.

  • Sarah

    Kaitlin is a wise and compassionate young lady and should hold her head high and be proud she is speaking out for her Uncles and other gay people.

  • Keetcha

    I am a loyal lurker here, but today I have something I’d like to share. I just saw a video that maybe Kirk Cameron and those who are still wearing biased bible blinders, should watch. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AEJlsLiKAIU . Where is at least the search for empathy for others? It appears as willful ignorance to not begin to question the validity of beliefs that marginalize and endanger others.

  • T. Krasner

    The Bible says there are people who engage in homosexual acts and those acts are sin. I suggest you actually read it for yourself

  • T. Krasner

    Denise, this little girl has been brainwashed. Feel for her — God feels for her – and anyone who promotes her brainswashed-ness such as yourself doesn’t care one whit for her. If God created people ‘ gay’ , to have ‘gay’ sex, He wouldn’t turn around in HIS WORD and call it sin to engage in it as he does in many places in BOTH the Old and New Testaments. Wake up.

  • busyba

    TK, I don’t doubt that what you say about the Bible is true, but I’m having a difficult time imagining why it possibly matters.

    I don’t begrudge you your fairy tales and imaginary friends, but when it prevents you from being a functioning member of society, that’s just sad.

    Maybe I’ll pray for you. lol.

  • What a wonderful, heartfelt letter from this 10 year old! It makes perfect sense!

  • busyba

    Do you allow for the possibility that this book you keep citing might just be a bunch of random stuff some random guys scribbled down several centuries ago?

    I realize that you personally can allow yourself to think such things because you would then have to acknowledge that the vast majority of your life has been devoted to something that was a colossal waste of time, and the human psyche is too fragile to deal with such intense introspection.

    So I forgive you for believing the silly things that you believe; you can’t help it, having been indoctrinated by your parents. You see, you’re the one who’s been brainwashed; that’s why you are so quick to think that of others who threaten your narrow world view.

    I hope you manage to find peace as you live out your life on the wrong side of history.

  • Leigh

    Amy , that was wonderful and thank you .

  • Ashley C

    You do realize the Bible did start out in English, right? And that God, Himself, didn’t put pen to paper (or stick to parchment or whatever it was at the time) and write it?

  • Ashley C

    did NOT start out in English. Grr!

  • busyba

    I wonder how long it will be before Rush Limbaugh calls little Kaitlin a slut.

  • Drew


  • Keetcha

    Oh and I forgot to mention that I am a Christian also, and do not see how easily people continue to defend hurtful interpretations of scripture without stopping for one second to dig deep and see they are maybe understanding things on autopilot without using their brain.

  • @busyba

    Hahahahahahahaha, well played.

  • Hi, I’m Kelly. I used to be a fundamentalist Christian. I’m still a born-again Christian but not at all a fundamentalist, and very strongly in favor of equality (LGBT rights, gender equality, religious tolerance…).

    I didn’t so much change my mind as my friends changed my heart and my mind had to catch up.

  • LSS


  • LSS

    I am one!! My lesbian friends changed my heart about it when i saw how they were regular people and some even believed in the same God i believe in and it just didn’t seem right to think those things about them anymore. Then i did some research and saw how the Bible could be understood differently, etc.

  • LSS

    PS: no longer a conservative politically, either, because i just couldn’t reconcile my gut instincts of justice with that anymore.

  • Teresa Thompson Selove via Facebook

    Wow! That’s wonderful!

  • LSS

    Whether this is a real guest post or a literary conceit (is that spelled the same as the other kind? I never remember), there are ALL kinds of 10-year olds. I’d like to think she is real and that the tolerance is spreading.

  • Mary Wisner Miller via Facebook

    Kirk Cameron, I am a Christian and you do not speak for me…or for Christ! Does your wife wear pants? This is an abomination before the Lord.

  • “you can have any theology you want until it effects someone you love” (Russ Taff) or someone loved by a 10 year old child.

  • Diana A.

    What Drew and Evan said!

  • Pops Warner

    Trying to get religious conservatives to think that homosexuality is normal and anything but a choice is pointless. If God (assuming there is such a thing) were to have made gay people, that would mean either that a) God is imperfect (because he made a mistake in making gay people) , or b) that God likes gay people, because he made them. Either is unacceptable to their thinking, despite any anecdotal or empirical evidence to the contrary. Therefore, their god couldn’t have made gay people.

  • Janet L Wortham-Morgan via Facebook

    LOVE this (as usual with your posts) 🙂

  • Diana A.

    You are entitled to your opinion. You are, however, wrong.

  • Christelle

    FORMER Ultra Conservative Fundamentalist here. Nice to meet you.

  • Diana A.

    Bad translations made by people who need to have an excuse to look down their noses at other people because they, themselves have so little to recommend them. Kind of like you!

  • Diana A.

    “If God created people ‘ gay’ , to have ‘gay’ sex, He wouldn’t turn around in HIS WORD and call it sin to engage in it as he does in many places in BOTH the Old and New Testaments.”

    Oh yeah. So many places. Like, maybe six verses in the entire Bible. One really has to go looking for them too. And then quote them completely out of context.

  • Ina

    ‘please stop bullying’.

    not ‘please change your beliefs’…

    but ‘please stop hurting people’.

    ah – out of the the mouths of babes.

    God bless the lass…and thank her folks, they done good : )

  • Scott Thompson via Facebook

    It’s sad when some Christians have to be taught love and acceptance. Leave judgement to God, am I wrong?

  • I hope she breaks open his heart. John everyone around that sweet child should be so proud of her

  • Gary

    Since I don’t believe you are that ignorant to either the scripture (well maybe to scripture) or this blog…I am forced to conclude you are nothing but a troll here to stir shit up. Probably one who was banned under a different name.

    The irony of your admonition to US to read the bible though is good for a laugh…LMAO

  • John. This is AMAZING. Thanks so much for sharing it. I hope he takes her up on it!

  • Jo Ann Simonse Bailey via Facebook

    Come on Kirk, do the right thing here. Meet with this young lady and open your heart.

  • Gary

    It does…I am one of them. Several years ago I left my bigotry behind when I recognized it for what it was and actually studied the clobber passages. They simply do NOT mean what fundies claim they do.

    Don’t give up…some can be changed. The others simply need to be trivialized into obscurity until they die and God Himself explains it to them.

  • DR

    Your views are responsible for gay kids killing themselves as a result of you twisting God’s Word to condemn them for something they cannot change. Their blood is on your hands. You don’t represent God – you do not speak for the correct interpretation of Scripture and your days of privilege where you believed both are over. The end.

    Nice doing business with you.

  • DR

    Homosexual activity is even present in nature, dear. But dealing with people like you is a closed chapter in history – your beliefs are extinct and no longer a part of a Christian Church that is actually following Jesus. Your beliefs will be remembered in the same light of the “Scriptural beliefs” that kept blacks and whites in separate schools. Bigots used scripture to justify that too.

    And you know what’s ironic? In five years or so when all of this is just a horrible memory in Christianity, you’re probably going to be one of the first people who claims that you were responsible for “the change”, if history repeats itself. God have mercy on you for the children you’ve harmed and the adults who you have pushed away from Jesus Christ as a result of your homophobia. You. Are. Responsible. God have mercy on you.

  • DR

    No he is not when his opinion harms others. Which it does.

  • DR

    I think you are a fabulous troll. And if not, for the love of God can we get the “learn how to spell properly” to the bigot crowd? Did any of you graduate high school?

  • DR

    I’m so tired of people defending this man’s right to stating his opinion! For God’s sake! No one is saying he can’t speak – he is an American he can speak freely. But when did free speech mean that you are protected from what other people *believe* about your opinion and saying so? I’m so confused as to why we continue to muddy this definition.

    We aren’t protected from people being angry with us, particularly when their statements are hurting people. When did we start believing that?

    The amount of

  • DR

    Melissa, would you be ok with someone saying “Your child is unnatural and condemned by God” if he said it really politely? Does the *way* someone says that change the impact?

  • Jamie Stanek

    A safe rule of thumb about to check if your comments on the LGBT community are going to make you sound like a bigot are to substitute black, African American, Asian, Mexican or Latino for LGBT People and Interracial Marriage for Gay Marriage. If, upon reflection. you sound awful, your original comments, no matter how respectful and brave you think you are for sharing your convictions, you remain, a bigot.

  • Jamie for the win.

  • Christy

    I changed after 11 years of Baptist school and half my life as a Fundamentalist when I finally learned what unconditional love looked and felt like as compared to the conditional kind we were taught. And when I realized love happens…beyond our control.

  • Beth Hervey Alexander via Facebook

    Love this. Made me cry.

  • Crysta


  • Terri Antonovich via Facebook

    @ Beth …same

  • Crysta

    Agreed. Sort of. Every body IS entitled to their opinions. But keep them to yourself rather than very publicly voicing them, causing “detriment” to others.

  • Vickie

    You should check out the FB page for Christians Tired of Being Misrepresented. Also, the Gay Christian Network at http://www.gaychristian.net.

    GCN was founded by a gay man who tried to fight his orientation because of what his faith taught him about it. It is full of people – some gay, some not – who were(and many still are) conservative Christians who changed their beliefs about orientation and gender identity and same-sex relationships.

  • Agreed, John.

  • I absolutely certain that Kaitlin has a bright and important future ahead of her. So articulate and so filled with love and wisdom!

    C’mon Kirk Cameron — go to Matt’s party. Meet Tom and Gary. Let the love of Jesus fill your heart and soul. See them as the wonderful, beloved children of God that they are.

  • What an amazing young lady!

  • God bless her and her family.

  • Melody

    Shame on you for choosing legalistic bigotry over loving relationships. You can’t prove your version of the Bible is THE word of God. Especially when it’s a deliberate, biased mistranslation.

  • Chiquita Dineyanti via Facebook

    Please tell Kaitlin that I think she’s awesome =)

  • I certainly will. Thank you.

  • Should not feed trolls, but… sometimes, when you have something to say and one makes a good venue for it…

    Let’s say that you’re right – let’s say that all English language Bibles are guranteed by the direct-hand-of-God! to be error-free with no possiblity of changes in word-meanings, or concepts or context from then-times to now-times. Let’s say all gay people are conciously rebelling against the way God made them. Let’s say the “Christian” ones are just weaseling and backpedaling and lying about scripture to excuse their sin or that they’re only gay-and-“Christian” because they’ve never actually read the Bible. Let’s say whatever you want.

    And let’s say that gay “Christians” and that “Christians” who aren’t gay but don’t condemn them at every opportunity or at all are all headed to the Big Barbeque when we die…

    I think that more than a few of us, when it comes down to it, would rather go to Hell for being “too kind” than to Heaven for doing, saying and supporting things that we feel are unjust.

  • Paul(GRUMPY)Watson

    Kaitlin is a very bright kid!!! I was wondering if Kirk Cameron ever replied and if so where can I see it. I would almost bet he won”t

  • vj

    It may be that in the US ‘freedom of speech’ does specifically include the right to publicly state any opinion (I’m not an American), but I have always felt that ‘freedom of speech’ as a concept is really about the right of a citizenry to speak out and protest against official government policy, and actions by persons in an official capacity, without fear of arrest/imprisonment/death (which was obviously a big deal in apartheid-era South Africa, and is no less important in any nation today).

    I don’t think it automatically includes the right to say whatever one likes about any *private individual*, in any forum one chooses, and expect no challenge. It’s not ‘exercising free speech’ to call someone a slut for wanting to use contraception or to say that a whole class of people are “destructive to so many of the foundations of civilization” – it’s bad manners at the very least, and, quite possibly, defamation of character. And it certainly isn’t ‘speaking the truth in love’. We are all made in the image of God, and thus have the inalienable right to be treated and addressed with respect and dignity.

  • vj


  • vj


  • From the mouths of babes.

    I need neighbors like yours, John. Please wish Matthew a happy birthday, and please let their parents know they are doing an AMAZING job of raising two awesome kids.

  • Philip Healey

    Yep! Agreed.

  • Philip Healey

    Jamie, while what you say works, if one needs to do it one definitely has bigotted opinions. I do realize that you are not “one.”

  • Philip Healey

    Krasner, the bible does not say that gay sex is a sin. Nowhere. It does talk about a couple of “angels” who came to town and who the men of the town wanted to harass sexually. Lot, to save the angels, offered his daughters to be raped by the rabble. The town was destroyed and Lott spared. If the lesson is that men raping men is wrong, I agree. If the lesson is that men raping women is okay, I disagree. If the lesson is that God spares people who offer their daughters for rape, it’s a pretty awful lesson. If the lesson is that same sex, consensual relationships are wrong, I have to disagree because it isn’t even mentioned. Yet this is one of the most quoted biblical sections against gay relationships. Only a bigot could misread it so. Genesis 19:1-11

  • Gary

    Where does all this “entitled to his opinion” bullshit come from? We are not simply discussing the issue with someone who struggles with a little personal bigotry, rather we are challenging a person who is actively pursuing a course of action against an entire class of people in order to repress and deny them basic rights he himself has. He is promoting a belief system that causes great emotional and sometimes very physical harm to people who are simply the way God made them. This is not mere “opinion”, it is willful and deliberate action that causes harm both to individuals and frankly to society as a whole.

    There is no entitlement to behavior of this sort…NONE!

  • Edie Wright Matykiewicz via Facebook

    I love the heart of children!

  • djcchicago

    Unfortunately Mr. Cameron has accomplished exactly what he intended to when he was booked on the Morgan show: publicity for his next project. To get this publicity, he had to say something controversial, which wasn’t hard given his far right views. Everyone involved knew he would be asked this question, given his past interviews. Would anyone tune in to hear Kirk Cameron talking about Growing Pains or the Left Behind series? Morgan booked him for the controversy and Cameron accepted knowing it would help get word out to his far right fan base. Now he’s screaming discrimination while crying all the way to the bank. A win win situation for the show and the has been child star who is making good money catering to the prejudices and fears of his base. And what a boatload of moeny there is to be made from this group.

  • DR

    Thank you.

  • Lymis

    He’s entitled to his opinion, and to keep it to himself.

    He’s free to exercise his right not to be arrested for speaking his opinion.

    He’s not “entitled” to having no negative repercussions from expressing his opinion in a public forum, especially not from other people who are equally entitled to their opinions – including their opinions of him.

  • Lymis

    Absolutely – and remember, the same people who are fighting so hard to keep gay relationships from being recognized because gay people “can’t have children” are usually the same people fighting equally as hard to keep gay people from having or raising kids.

    We’re gay, not infertile. We’re perfectly capable of having kids. We just can’t have them with each other. Most kids raised by gay men are adopted, but a significant percentage of the kids raised by lesbians are born to them. I have two wonderful stepdaughters because my husband had them with the woman he married before he came out.

  • Gary

    I get what you are saying Lymis and I agree. That is the distinction I was trying to make which probably sounded confusing. We are not really dealing with a wrong opinion…we are dealing with an individual who seeks have public policy shaped by his bigotry. That is what I mean by not entitled…no opinion gives us the right to harm others.

  • Lymis

    “while then calling youreselves Chrsitians.”

    I know it’s a typo, but I can say with some confidence that nobody here is calling themselves “Chrsitian.” Sounds like some sort of ointment. Or a high-tech fabric.

    It’s also a delightfully ironic example of how the literal words don’t always express the intention of the author, and how human error creeps into written communication.

    But here’s the real point. The biggest place where a literal interpretation of the Bible bites its own tail is where we are told most explicitly that Jesus told us that there were truths we were not yet ready to hear, and that He would send the Holy Spirit to be with us and continue to teach us.

    So, if you believe that the Bible is literally true, you have to be open to ongoing revelations of God’s message that wandering Middle Eastern nomads might not have been ready for 4,000 years ago. Like, maybe that Christian love isn’t primarily about plumbing.

    If you aren’t prepared to take the recorded words of Jesus himself literally, then you have no reason to try to weaponize any other part of the Bible to justify your own prejudices. Demanding that we take the Bible more seriously than you do is both silly and well, evil.

    And, even more important, the Christian message is, if it means anything, that God is alive and present in an ongoing way in the world, that Jesus is still alive and present in a way that didn’t end with his Crucifixion, and that the Holy Spirit is present in the heart and mind of every human being.

    You are essentially claiming that we must make a choice between embracing a promise made now, in this moment, by a living God who wants me in a relationship with Him based on His ongoing presence in my life and embracing the lived experience of that immanent God in my heart, my life, and the lives and loves of those around me, or choosing a mean-spirited interpretation of a few potentially mistranslated phrases taken out of context from a book.

    Jesus didn’t say “read the book.” He said “follow Me.” And since he’s not dead, I can still follow Him now rather than closing my heart and mind to his actual present in favor of trying to winkle out what someone else meant thousands of years ago when they had their own contact with God then.

    It’s a false choice, you’re asking, anyway, because I can both follow God now and revere the book – as a book, as a record of other people’s contact with the same God, and of the choices, good, bad, or neutral, that they made in their time and society. It’s a very nice book. It’s a very special book. It’s still a book.

    If there were a person you admired enormously and had the choice between a copy of their biography or the invitation to actually spend the rest of your life with them in person, who in their right mind would choose the book? Especially when you can take a copy of the book with you into the relationship with actual person, and learn for yourself, from your contact with that person, what parts the biographers got right and what they got wrong?

    God is utterly neutral on homosexual activity – He created it, after all, so it’s hard to make a case that he’s utterly opposed to it – but God is demonstrably “pro-love.”

    As to what Kirk Cameron’s views are based in, meh. But he’d probably do more good with it if he spread it on his lawn than over the airwaves.

  • Allie

    I just hope someone warned Tom and Gary.

  • Lymis

    She’s dead now, or I would introduce you to my mother.

    It was precisely being faced with real people that changed her mind. It is one of the great tragedies of my life that I didn’t meet my husband until just a few years before we lost Mom, because they loved each other deeply even on short acquaintance, and would have cherished more time spent with each other.

  • Lymis

    Absolutely. That’s why it’s always important to clarify terms. Otherwise we end up dealing with people who seem to honestly think that things like “Well, you’re intolerant of my intolerance, so that makes you a hypocrite” actually mean something.

  • Lymis


    You know, when Grandma spouts uninformed bigotry, that may be an acceptable evaluation.

    But when these people go public and national with their beliefs, and are constantly presented with the truth, both in the lived experience of the people they claim to be discussing and the documented scientific proof presented by qualified professionals, then it’s a different thing entirely.

    There’s “not knowing any better” and then there is “Deliberately choosing not to pay attention to facts that refute your narrow world-view, even when what you are doing is hurting other people.”

    He’s telling lies, and he knows it. He just likes his version of things better, so he chooses to stick to it.

  • LSS

    Isn’t there something in the definition of rights about how person A’s rights extend until they would interfere with person B’s rights? I’m not saying it well because my brain isn’t at full function today but maybe you guys remember the principle that i am referring to.

    Um, just intending to back up what you guys were saying, hope it is useful.

  • Diana A.

    There is this.

  • “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”

    ~Matthew 18:3, NIV

  • Diana A.

    Person A’s right to swing his/her fist ends at person B’s face.

  • Sharla

    “Your right to swing your arm ends where my nose begins” is how it has been colorfully articulated. But there does seem to be a growing, and alarming, sentiment that if my faith says certain people shouldn’t have rights, the government granting them those rights interferes with MY freedom of religion. It’s nonsense, and I wish someone could come up with a refutation for it beyond my own incoherent spluttering.

  • Diana A.

    It is sad. And yes, judgment should be left to God–who’s the only one capable of seeing each person whole.

  • Diana A.

    Amen, Shadsie!

  • Diana A.

    Good for you!

  • Diana A.

    Great theology! Lymis, have you gotten the call to ministry? Because, you are that good. Seriously.

  • vj

    This was SO beautiful, Lymis.

  • LSS

    It could be useful for people in transition out of bigotry. I know when i started making the parallels between my experience of being a neurologically non-average adult in an interracial marriage, vs. stuff my lesbian and gay friends/students experienced… I was on the “slippery slope” to love and affirmation.

  • Diana A.

    Adults tend to underestimate children. Children are often smarter and more mature than we give them credit for being. Also, childhood is a time of rapid change. As we get older, the pace of change tends to be slower. So the difference between a newborn and a five year old is greater than the difference between a five year old and a ten year old…and so on up the line.

  • LSS

    Also, i would say that anti-gay statements are based on feelings more than the ppl making those statements would like to admit.

  • Philip Healey

    John Stuart Mill, On Liberty: “There needs protection also against the tyranny of the prevailing opinion and feeling; against the tendency of society to impose, by other means than civil penalties, its own ideas and practices as rules of conduct on those who dissent from them; to fetter the development, and, if possible, prevent the formation, of any individuality not in harmony with its ways, and compel all characters to fashion themselves upon the model of its own. There is a limit to the legitimate interference of collective opinion with individual independence; and to find that limit, and maintain it against encroachment, is as indispensable to a good condition of human affairs, as protection against political despotism.”

    i.e. People do not have the right to curtail the rights of others and should be stopped from doing so. It follows therefore that incitement to others to curtail such rights is also wrong. However, the voicing of an opinion which does not incite or seek to incite such behavior is not in and of itself a breach of the rights of others. In such cases, we may merely disagree, frustrating as it may be.

    However, I believe that when someone public, states in public that an innocent group are destroying the very basis of civilization, it would be true to say that he is inciting people to act against the right of others. This should to be stopped by the application of law.

  • LSS

    I wish somebody had told *me* something like this about 10yrs ago. No idea if i would have understood it, but. … It’s eyeopening if you take the duct tape off your lids. (ow)

  • Gary

    Excellent. Your final paragraph identifies very clearly the distinction we are all seeking to voice.

  • Diana A.

    “But there does seem to be a growing, and alarming, sentiment that if my faith says certain people shouldn’t have rights, the government granting them those rights interferes with MY freedom of religion. It’s nonsense, and I wish someone could come up with a refutation for it beyond my own incoherent spluttering.”

    Agreed. To me, each person has the right to practice his/her own religion, or to practice no religion at all, but to then foist those practices on others or to forbid others their practices is wrong.

  • Diana A.

    Yeah, reading that article reminded me of why I was never all that into Growing Pains or Kirk Cameron. Even then, he came across to me as a sanctimonious jackass.

  • I wouldn’t mind sending him directions off a cliff.

  • Casey Friedlander via Facebook

    Very touching. To think a 10 year old can see the beauty of love and want to make him aware. Simply amazing!

  • What a sweet neighbor you have. She will grow up to be a lovely, confident, loving person! Good work Kaitlin!!

  • John (not McCain)

    “But there does seem to be a growing, and alarming, sentiment that if my faith says certain people shouldn’t have rights, the government granting them those rights interferes with MY freedom of religion.”

    If this sentiment gains traction with regard to equal rights for gay people or the current controversy over contraception coverage, how long will it be until the people who control Bob Jones University start complaining that they aren’t allowed to freely practice their sincerely held religious beliefs regarding black people?

  • Philip Healey

    Lymis the lyrical! I love the philosophy and your expression of it. Good stuff!

  • Andrea Claassen

    Beautifully put, Lymis. I am not a Christian but it was thinking like this (expressed by Shore in his blog) that made me realize that the whole of Christianity isn’t as mean-spirited and moronic as many of its practitioners seem to be. It’s nice to know now that there are at least two of you out there who are intelligent and compassionate. Thank you for speaking up!

  • Lymis

    The distinction lies in the difference between your right to disapprove and your right to interfere.

    If you are a Catholic and it’s a Friday during Lent, you have every right to exercise your freedom not to order the bacon. You don’t get to run around snatching it of other people’s plates and throwing it to the floor.

    And, to me, it matters if you are being asked to actually personally participate in the activity you find sinful. A county clerk, for example, is expected to check ID, ask some questions, and file some paperwork when someone applies for a marriage license. If filing paperwork or using a computer violates their religion, then they shouldn’t be in a job that involves that. But the gay couple who applies for the license isn’t asking the clerk to have sex with them, just to file the paperwork.

    It would be an interference with someone’s religious freedom if, for example, employees were required to eat in the company cafeteria, and no kosher foods were offered, and a Jewish employee who kept kosher was not allowed to bring their own food from home. On the other hand, if you are employed in a test kitchen as a food taster, that might have been something to bring up during the job interview.

    If it’s against your religion to not have sex until marriage, it still isn’t a violation of your religious freedom to work at a hotel where unmarried people rent rooms.

    Religious freedom has to mean that you are free to do or not do what your religion requires. It does not mean that you get to demand to live in a world where the government forces everyone else to do so.

  • Lymis

    Actually, I got the call not to let the door hit me on the ass on my way out, gay people not being welcome. That was, not coincidentally, at the same time that I got the call to follow God without the benefit of the organized Church.

  • Lymis

    I can safely say that I have never lain with a man the way I would lay with a woman.

    Just saying.

  • Diana A.

    Ya’ know?

  • Diana A.

    Yeah, I get that. Still, you know God. He’s never been one to let the religious authorities get in the way of his appointing whomever he damn well pleases.

  • Lymis

    Well, if we’re looking at it that way, I think it worked the reverse way. I told God to use me however he felt was important, a LONG time ago. He seems to have taken me up on that.

  • Diana A.

    Good for him and for you!

  • Christine

    Me too… and my wife!

  • Desi

    “And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.”

    Cameron didn’t say that anyone was evil. All of his comments (not what is just posted here) simply explained that he believes the definition of marriage is beyond our jurisdiction and homosexuality is prohibited by God. So from a Christian perspective, and to the Christian lifestyle, homosexuality IS detrimental and ultimately destructive. He also added “I believe that all of us are sinful. I could stand at the top of the list and say that I need a savior and I need an over haul of the heart more than anyone.” So he wasn’t condemning one group of people, he was talking about what he believes is just one symptom of a bigger problem, which he himself and everyone else is affected by.

    I would also point out the great hypocrisy here–that one side expects the homosexual lifestyle to be tolerated without criticism, but not the Christian lifestyle. Also, it’s hypocritical because objecting to a standard of morality requires a standard of morality!

    At the heart of Jesus’ teachings about love and forgiveness is the fact that we’re all guilty of sin. Christians are to stand on and be witnesses to that truth. Cameron is totally in line with scripture to object to homosexuality. http://www.openbible.info/topics/sexual_immorality

    I understand that we as people are a diverse bunch and we need to respect our differences. My comments are only intended to point out that this issue isn’t as simple as this child has tried to make it. There are other things to consider and good reasons why Kirk Cameron said what he did.

  • Gary

    Well said. Could not agree more.

  • LSS

    You have a small definition of “the Christian lifestyle”. We propose that there are different possible opinions and interpretations among actual Christians, and that some are more in line with Jesus’ idea of love than others.

    We other Christians wouldn’t say that gays don’t sin, only that their attraction to and relationships (including sexual) with each other aren’t intrinsically sin. Of course everybody sins… Everybody is mean sometimes, etc.

  • LSS

    They changed that one recently. Interracial dating is now OK there.

  • I told someone today in a topic about the Bible and its various obscure laws and weirdnesses, I gave someone an analogy drawn from my Nintendo-hobby:

    “The manual is not the game.”

  • otter

    Please forgive my urge to comment lyrically…….this comes from a parody I have written of Gerswin’s ” It Ain’t Necessarily So!”. and trust me that Soooo true when you read how centuries and biased translators have treated gays in scripture!

  • otter

    Those biblical rules we’ve all heard

    Should not be revered as the “Word”.

    If they tell you belabor

    and slander your neighbor

    You ought to know they are absurd!

    Religion’s a terrible tool

    When self-righteous people turn cruel!

    And we lesbians and gays

    Are the targets these days

    Of sanctified, bigoted fools

    I wrote this for a gay chorus.

    ok now y’ all can telll me to play nice…….

  • DR

    There is no reverse hypocrisy here. Beliefs like his drive gay kids to kill themselves. Beliefs like his push gay men and women away from Jesus Christ. Beliefs like his harm people. People here are *angry* about that and are saying so. Have the courage to remove your defensiveness and open your eyes to what people are saying. He is not under spiritual attack. He is not a victim. He is an aggressor. And if you believe what he does and say so? So are you.

  • Jeannie

    Kaitlin, you sound like a delightful young lady. Thank you for standing up against bullying. Please wish your brother Matthew a happy birthday for me.

  • otter

    So “homosexuality is prohibited by God”

    Desi, aren’t you just the lucky one to KNOW God’s will??? Seems to me there’s a pretty long list of people doing bad things to other people and claiming it was “God’s will”. Torturing heretics, slavery, you get the idea…..So why don’t you “I-know- God’s-will types EVER stop and think about how many times others just like you have been WRONG? Your hubris is astounding! Tell you what, when I need you to tell me God’s will I’ll ask you, but I really prefer to listen for myself. And right now, I think God is telling me you should be prompted to grow beyond those grossly flawed translations. I hope you can.

  • Roger

    Otter – I’m borrowing your verse.

  • Lymis

    “All of his comments (not what is just posted here) simply explained that he believes the definition of marriage is beyond our jurisdiction and homosexuality is prohibited by God.”

    Maybe, but he isn’t being judged by just the words he spoke during that particular interview, at least not by anyone who has followed his work. He has a much larger body of work – much of it much more clearly intolerant and expressly condemnatory, and he is also associating with a larger group of people who are far more vicious in what they say and do – and has chosen to be a media spokesperson for the movement. He doesn’t get a pass on that simply because he tones it down on TV.

    “At the heart of Jesus’ teachings about love and forgiveness is the fact that we’re all guilty of sin. Christians are to stand on and be witnesses to that truth. ”

    Oh, phooey.

    If that’s what you’ve taken away from Jesus’s messages, please go back and start over. Because saying that is saying that it is the fundamental Christian duty to point fingers at each other and shout “SINNER!”

    I certainly won’t disagree that a lot of Christians seem to see that as the Great Commandment, but it isn’t. Christians aren’t called to stand and be witnesses to the fact that everyone is a sinner. Christians are called to stand and be witnesses to the fact that everyone, sinner or not, can be transformed in love, by the love of each other and by and in the love of God.

    What you’re saying is like saying that the point of going to a gym is to stand around and comment on how fat everyone is, or that the point of a school is to harrangue students on being ignorant.

    The real point is that “here is who you are, here is where you find yourself. That’s cool – now let’s move forward from there.” We’re not called to stand witness to sin. We’re called to stand witness to the fact that sin is not who we are, and not who anyone else is, and that in a very real way, sin doesn’t matter – at least, it doesn’t define us.

    And being gay and being in loving gay relationships isn’t sin in the first place.

    “So he wasn’t condemning one group of people, he was talking about what he believes is just one symptom of a bigger problem,”

    It’s so cute that you can pretend to believe that.

  • otter

    theres 4 more that lead into this but they are intended to be hmerously irreverent. you can have em if you want em. but i won’t clutter john blog so youd have to give me your email. up to you….

  • Desi

    Thanks for the reply, LSS. It’s not my definition of the Christian lifestyle. I’m basing it directly off the following scriptures: http://www.openbible.info/topics/sexual_immorality

  • Desi

    I’m sorry, DR, but I don’t think that your analysis of the situation makes any sense, specifically the idea that a person could be driven to commit suicide over another person’s belief. If that were true, then there would be an awful lot of suicides as we are a diverse bunch and there are all kinds of beliefs that are at odds with each other. I personally have had times when I was very troubled over and heartbroken about other beliefs and was mistreated and persecuted for my beliefs, but I never once thought to take my life because of it. The fact that gays are more prone to wrestle with suicidal tendencies only supports the idea that there are more aspects to this issue than people think.

  • Desi

    Sorry for the confusion, otter. Perhaps I should have been more clear. I’m only referring to biblical Christianty. Should people want to live their lives according to the Bible, then homosexuality is prohibited. I believe that people ought to have the right to do that, even though others may disagree or be offended. Likewise, I believe that people have the right to live their lives according to some other standard, even though Christians may disagree or be offended.

  • Lymis

    “The fact that gays are more prone to wrestle with suicidal tendencies only supports the idea that there are more aspects to this issue than people think.”

    Absolutely. And most of those aspects are that homophobic crap like what Cameron spouts, knowing that most of what he uses as “facts” are lies is far, far more pervasive than people who say things like you are saying are willing to acknowledge.

    And that “being gay” isn’t a belief. When a kid is bullied or put down, or has to listen to self-important washed up former child stars claim that their very existence is unnatural and that everyone agrees that God hates them, and that gosh, all you have to do is smile and rub a unicorn and it will be all better, they aren’t being “persecuted for their beliefs” – unless the belief that they are being persecuted for is the belief that they have the right to live.

    Chance are that you never once thought to take your life because you weren’t surrounded by people claiming to speak for God saying you didn’t have the right to be alive in the first place. And if you think that that ISN’T the message that today’s gay kids are constantly getting – that the only way to end it is to not be gay, and since not being gay is not an option, the only choice they have is to end everything, then you are either not paying attention or you have no concept of what empathy and compassion are.

    Sorry you had to deal with persecution for your beliefs as a teen. I hope, though, that this sort of intolerant, ignorant, and vile homophobia isn’t the kind of belief you feel you needed to defend. Because that would be sad.

  • busyba

    > “Your views are responsible for gay kids killing themselves”

    I’m pretty sure he’s okay with that.

  • Desi

    “He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.” Titus 1:9

    “For our appeal does not spring from error or impurity or any attempt to deceive, but just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not to please man, but to please God who tests our hearts.” 1 Thessalonians 2:3-12

    And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins” Acts 2:38

  • cat rennolds

    there’s a crucial difference here, Desi. we’re not talking about a belief. we are talking about a physical fact. gay kids don’t “believe” they are gay, they ARE. Second, these are not adults having a difference of opinion. These are very young people who are being told by the adults they trust that they are damned for something they never chose, and that they can never have love like a “normal” person. So they try to change it, and they can’t. How would you feel if you believed – because the grownups told you so – that God hated you, and you did your best to be different, but you couldn’t? How would you feel if you believed you were so evil that even Jesus didn’t love you?

  • cat rennolds

    If you read a little bit more about it, you can see that there is more than one way to understand the Bible. There are plenty of people who love Christ, but not Christians who think the rest of the rules are more important than the Great Commandment.

  • Lymis

    Alrighty then.

    “Gird thy head in tinfoil, that thou mayest remain impervious to the thoughts of others, lest they tempt ye into the light of truth.” Wingnut 2: 18

  • Gary

    Desi guess what…I believe you are one of the most UNbiblical Christians I know. You see we are supposed to study the scriptures…not use them for a bully platform to hide behind. When you decide to actually STUDY this issue…you will find that your biblical knowledge is lacking AND that you are using your ignorance to hold on to these horribly UNChristlike attitudes of bigotry, pride, a haughty spirit, and judgmental attitude towards others. If you really were a “biblical” Christian…your approach would be entirely different than what you have demonstrated here.

  • Desi

    Gary, in most sincere honesty, I have no idea where you’re coming from. I agree that bigotry, pride, and a haughty spirit are un-Christian. I have made it a point here from the beginning to “not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness…” How did you get the wrong impression?

  • LSS

    it is not my definition of the Christian lifestyle, either. mine, like that of many here, is increasingly based off of the following scriptures and others like them:

    Luke 10:26-28 “26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” 27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

    28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.””

    Romans 13:10 “Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.”

    1 Corinthians 13:1 “If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.”

  • LSS

    lots of people are driven to suicidal thoughts just by the judgmental nature of fundamentalist and other extremely strict types of religion. even if they aren’t gay, just by the disconnect between being generally human vs. the hyperbole and hypocrisy of those dogmas. of all the people i know who have PTSD from religion, probably only about half of them are gay.

  • LSS

    for one thing, you keep using the word “Christian” to mean the kind of christian that you are. not any other kind of christian. that is a big clue right there.

  • LSS

    i totally used to attend that church.

  • LSS

    that is a very useful point that i think a lot of people are somehow missing. it is so logical, though.

  • Gary

    Sorry Desi but I am not buying the “whatever could you mean” shtick. You see you have gone out of your way to portray your scriptural interpretations as the only true form of “biblical Christianity”. You clearly have not even studied the issue enough to know that there are very legitimate reasons for concluding as we do that the scriptural references (all 6 of them in the entire bible) do not refer to consensual same sex loving relationships.

    One major difference between your understanding of scripture and mine is that yours requires you to treat an entire class of people as 2nd class citizens not deserving of the same rights and protections you yourself enjoy. This is what makes your biblical interpretation so very UNChristlike. And you have very much demonstrated a haughty spirit in the way you have presented yourself as the true “biblical Christian” here, implying that we must have simply discarded the bible to believe as we do.

    Frankly I find your definition of a “biblical Christian” to be very naive. I wish that you would take the time to educate yourself on this issue. It is one of critical importance in the church today and you should not treat it so flippantly.

  • Gary

    Oh Lymis this is absolutely classic. I am definitely going to have to steal this one.

  • Desi

    The prohibition against homosexuality is not something that only existed as a law in the Old Testament. It’s a biblical teaching throughout the New Testament as well. As just one example, in Matthew 19:4-6 Jesus said, “at the beginning the Creator made them male and female… For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh… Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” That is the biblical basis for both marriage and sexuality for the Christ-follower. For more NT verses on the topic of sexual immorality go to: http://www.openbible.info/topics/sexual_immorality

    If we are loving our neighbors, we will not be sinning against them.

  • Desi

    I’m afraid that you all have inferred something incorrectly and it has led to a big misunderstanding.

    I’m aware that there are some people who are intolerant, ignorant and vile homophobes. I would put the “God Hates Fags” people at Westboro Baptist into that category. I don’t believe they are biblical. Love, gentleness, and respect are completely lacking in the methods and message they use.

    I don’t believe that God hates gays. I don’t believe that God looks at them any differently than he does anyone else. I don’t believe that gays are second class citizens or don’t deserve the same rights and protections as anyone else.

    I don’t doubt that some people are born with a propensity toward homosexuality. After all, scripture clearly teaches that we’re all literally born into sin. People are also born with a propensity toward lying, cheating, stealing, selfishness, vanity, gluttony, disobedience, violence, murder and loving money. I don’t believe that it’s OK for people to act on these temptations and desires because they’re “natural.” I too was born with my own unique blend of immoral temptations and desires, and I’m guilty of acting on every one of them. But I chose to trade my temporal, carnal desires for God’s righteousness, forgiveness, love and gift of eternal life. I believe that other people are longing to do this too. That’s why I feel so compelled to preach the word. God says, “my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.”

    Like Kirk Cameron, I’m influenced by different principles from those of the world. It doesn’t surprise me that some people would take offense to this as 2 Timothy 3:12 clearly states that “all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.”

    I wish that you all would grant me the same kind of respect and tolerance that you expect to receive yourself. I’m leaving this conversation now. God bless.

  • Gary

    Sad that she has chosen to leave the conversation portraying herself as the persecuted one…sigh.

    For a moment there I actually thought we might be able to do some good.

  • LSS

    In order not to be redundant, just read what the others said below. Many different views about those verses are out there on theological sites online, including this site, and in John Shore’s new book, many other books, canyonwalker connections website, etc. All you need to do is visit any gay-affirming christian site and you will find lots.

  • otter


    Was the Gospel of St Wingnut found recently translated?

  • Lymis

    Hope springs eternal.

  • Lymis

    “I wish that you all would grant me the same kind of respect and tolerance that you expect to receive yourself. ”

    It’s telling that you didn’t ask for the same kind of respect and tolerance that you yourself showed. Because I think we met that bar and far exceeded it.

  • Philip Healey

    Desi, if you are not “tempted” by homosexuality you can’t be proud of being strong in the face of it. If you are “tempted” and refuse to accept what you are then you will remain a sad person trying to justify your sorrow through biblical misrepresentation.

    For a scholarly (non-partisan) look at the passages that are most used to attack same sex relationships I suggest:


    There are many Christians who believe in scripture and believe that God and Jesus do not condemn same-sex relationships. At different times in history, including during the writing of many of the scriptural texts, homosexual behavior was commonly accepted. It is therefore important that the scriptures be translated and interpreted in accordance with the use of their words at the time of writing and not how a modern Christian might want them to be used.

  • Philip Healey

    Desi, if you are not “tempted” by homosexuality you can’t be proud of being strong in the face of it. If you are “tempted” and refuse to accept what you are then you will remain a sad person trying to justify your sorrow through biblical misrepresentation.

    For a scholarly (non-partisan) look at the passages that are most used to attack same sex relationships I suggest:


    There are many Christians who believe in scripture and believe that God and Jesus do not condemn same-sex relationships. At different times in history, including during the writing of many of the scriptural texts, homosexual behavior was commonly accepted. It is therefore important that the scriptures be translated and interpreted in accordance with the use of their words at the time of writing and not how a modern Christian might want them to be used.

  • Here is a fundamental difference between what you and Cameron are doing and “Just trying to live a Biblical Christian life.” If you speak out, expect opposition. I’m sure you know that. I don’t think you can claim persecution here because you deliberately sought out a venue of the “gay-friendly” to tacka-tacka your typing fingers to. No one is threatening your life or your livliehood for holding your views. If you think being gay is a sin, then, don’t date people of your same sex. It’s pretty simple to keep yourself “pure” if you’re already straight (or like me, asexual). You argue just how I used to…

    Think of it this way: At present, I am eating some delicious yogurt raisns purchased today from a lovely young Amish woman at a little multi-vendor farmer’s market I go to. I picked up some sushi from the Japanese couple who run the sushi-market there, then went to the Amish treats/confectionary place I like to get snacks from. While a multi-vendor mart, most of the little shops are Amish-run. Women wear the two-bun headcoverings, the elder men have proud beards and straw hats and everything.

    If you know anything about the Amish, you know that they have very many rules for living. They believe that living a proper Christian life entails following the many rules their specific communities and sects lay down. This seems to be done mostly for the sake of humility, community, and being “set apart from the world.” They are selective about how much modernity they will allow into their lives, yet they are generally willing to work with us modern, “wordly” folk.

    I bought my snacks and not once did the lovely young Amish woman preach at me, or condemn me to Hell/or as a sinner because my head was uncovered and I was in modern clothing and pants. She was, no doubt, living her version of a Biblical Christian life and did not bother me about my life.

    (Of course, I have no idea if the Amish just believe we all have different paths or if they don’t bother the worldly folks because they think we’re all doomed, anyway), but, still, I’ve never been bothered at my market.

  • Lymis

    Sadly, it’s been around for generations.

  • otter

    Desi claims my loving , committed 23 year relationship is in the same class as (and I quote) “…. lying, cheating, stealing, selfishness, vanity, gluttony, disobedience, violence, murder and loving money”.

    Words fail me……the ones that come to mind are inappropriate for this site.

    One of the reasons I hang out on this blog is for the trolls. Desi, You are a doozy. I hope someday you find someone willing to insult you to the profound depth you just insulted me. I won’t waste my time.

    You can wrap yourself in Jesus all you want, but that comment displays what you really are….

  • Philip Healey

    I agree. Sick. But people like Desi spice up the site with the kind of evil that reminds us just how much progress still needs to be made.

    If people like Desi didn’t exist, John Shore would have to invent them.

    Come to think of it…. No… John couldn’t… he wouldn’t… did he?

  • otter

    Yeah, Phillip, what will we do when the trolls are GONE???

    Permit me a small foray into comparative religion: One of the central figures in Tibetan Buddhism is Chenrezig, a being who is depicted in sacred art with 1000 arms and hands, each hand bearing one eye. This is a powerful image for people seeking to develop the heart of compassion. He is the embodiment of compassion, he sees all the suffering in the world with his eyes and with his arms he comforts EVERYONE…

    Desi’s brand of religion gives Chenrezig lots to do.

  • Philip Healey

    I hadn’t heard of Chenrezig before, despite my dabbles into other religious insights. I find the concept underlying this deity to be remarkably beautiful and very akin to Jesus’ teachings of “Love above all else.” Chenrezig refused to accept his own Budahood until he had rid the world of suffering. “Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.” Certainly the trolls you mention would not understand the kind of all-involving love: The true love that both Chenrezig and Jesus embody. Yet some trolls say they are Christians and use their Christianity to rub salt into the wounds of the sufferers.

    Thanks for this insight, Otter. God is manifest in many ways.

  • LSS

    Man, i wish i hadn’t seen Pan’s Labyrinth BEFORE knowing about the image of Chenrezig. I think i had heard of the name but not what they are pictured as.

    I like the idea, though.

  • Pamela

    I think the difference is that gay people don’t insist that we follow their rules. Gay people don’t go door-to-door explaining to straight, Christian people why they’re living in an offensive way. Gay people don’t try to push through legislation that forbids Christian, heterosexual marriage. Gay people don’t beat up straight people just because they look Christian. So I think the onus is on the Christian community to ensure that their disapproval doesn’t cause harm to another community.

  • Richard Lubbers

    Desi, let me ask you a question. Was there a moment in your life when your attraction to another person was a matter of choice? In other words, was it a spontaneous thing, or did you say to yourself, “I think I’ll be attracted to that person?”

    If homosexuality is a choice, and a sinful one, then why have I never been tempted by it? Have you?

  • Laydmay

    I’m sorry, but I think this letter is fake. It does not sound like what a 10 year old would write. It appears to be a hoax. (in my opinion).

  • Michelle P.

    Do you know very many 10 year olds? I’ve known several who are this kind and insightful.

  • Michelle P.

    Actually, it is unclear what the actual meaning is of the original Hebrew term that has been “shorthand translated” into “homosexual”.

  • laydmay

    Good for them! This letter sounds like an adult trying to sound like a 10 year old. (Again, IMO) I (for one) will not be duped! Have a nice day!

  • Philip Healey

    For goodness sake. A hoax??? Even if the letter is written by John Shore, as I am sure it is, it isn’t a “hoax.” It’s serious writing intended to convey meaning within a context. It is designed to challenge and make one think from a particular view point. It works extremely well, as all the subsequent comments make clear. The word Hoax doesn’t apply to this any more than it would to Gulliver’s Travels or Aesop’s fables.

  • Laydmay

    Be gullible if you like. That’s your right. I am entitled to my opinon sir. People are so desparate to latch on and believe whatever. You even elude to the the fact that it could have been written by Shore. hoax = fraud – trick- deception – deceive. A hoax is an act intended to deceive or trick. Yes, hoax does apply! I don’t have to be made to think. I am perfectly capable of doing that for myself and not go along with the crowd. Have a nice day! 🙂

  • LSS

    i think you are confusing a literary genre/device:


    with an actual attempt to deceive. In many literary examples, the deception is in the interest of art, and people are meant to figure it out after a while or even right away.

    i don’t think this letter is done as an example of that literary device, for the record. i think she might have a good writing coach, but i think she exists and i think she wrote it.

  • Laydmay

    Thank you LSS for your opionion and respectful reply.

  • DR

    What you are actually doing is denying the story so you don’t have to think about it too deeply. Which you can certainly do but trust me – the Lord will have you deal with this, He will continue to move it to your attention and give you the opportunity of Grace and repentance within it. You can continue to deny it. And God have mercy upon you if you make that choice.

  • Laydmay

    Aha! I get it now, thanks to LSS! The byline.

  • Laydmay

    Seriously? No need to bully me Miss. And I thank God for his mercy that’s new everyday.

  • LSS

    no, that means it was *posted* “by JOHN SHORE on MARCH 7, 2012 in CHRISTIAN ISSUES” …

    there are different ways to have guest bloggers or collaborative blogging. if a blog is made by a team, you have “by” whoever wrote and posted that post somewhere on the post.

    but if a blog is written by one person most of the time, like this one, when the blogger wants to have a guest blogger (like John Shore does also with the Pastor Bob every sunday), they copy-paste the text that was written by the other person and it appears as *posted* by them.

    i really think, though, that the ideas expressed here are more important than the minutiae (sp?) of blogging culture as opposed to traditional journalism…

  • LSS

    San Diego white pages does not support my opinion, however many people are of course unlisted in any given city.

    John Shore, please don’t tell your neighbors that i attempted stalking them to prove you weren’t pulling our legs, ok?

  • LSS

    it would fit with the Book of Mormon musical. which contains gay ex-mormon/s as one or more of the stars, i think???

  • LSS

    anyway even if he wrote it and there is not a specific Kaitlin that is his neighbor, not only would this be a literary device of false document, but also the people mentioned in it, including the voice of the author Kaitlin, would be what is called *composite characters*.


    this is important because it means that the letter is TRUE in spirit and in general, even if the specifics are fiction.

    there ARE loads of kids just like Kaitlin and Matt, who have gay uncles/parents/family-friends/neighbors/etc. who are nice and have dogs, just like Tom and Gary.

    They get hurt by knowing that people think their glbtq loved ones are something awful, when they know that these are nice people that take care of them.

    THAT is true.

  • LSS

    i was a literature major for [a lot of] years. most of my BA and 2 MA degrees were spent on literature. so, don’t tell me that something can’t be TRUE if it’s FICTION.

    the best fiction is true in some sense(s): it says something about (to put it very generally) the human condition, or nobody would bother wanting to read and study it.

  • LSS

    sorry for the multiple replies. you got me thinking.

  • Melody

    Anything to justify homophobia, huh?

  • Laydmay

    LSS thanks for all of the info! I appreciate you taking the time to explain. 🙂 I agree with what you say about the importance of the ideas expressed. The manner in which is presented just doesn’t work for me. I think I will stay away from bloggers. Thanks again.

  • Laydmay

    and yet another bully

  • Melody

    And yet another evasion. You know that’s what you’re doing. Otherwise you wouldn’t take issue with it. You’re the bully here.

  • Laydmay


  • LSS

    What?! i don’t even know how to respond to that. it’s like staying away from the internet, or … electricity.

  • LSS

    composite characters are not a creation of bloggers. they are probably as old as the phenomenon of literature itself being written by people who had met lots of people.

  • Philip Healey

    Good. I’m glad you get it. But before getting it, you called it a hoax and me gullible for sugesting that even though I think it was written by John Shore, it is a respectable and working literary divice. You then go on to state: “Yes, hoax does apply! I don’t have to be made to think. I am perfectly capable of doing that for myself and not go along with the crowd.”

    But now you get it. Maybe you did need to be made to think after all.

  • LSS

    no, because he didn’t invent Pastor Bob.

    “God So Loved the World”: A sermon by Pastor Bob


    see what she means by the by-line?

  • DR

    I need to stop being surprised at people like “Laydmay” who come onto this blog, attack John by implying he lied about this letter and wrote it himself, goes on to attack those who challenge his/her unChristlike behavior in doing so then cries “I’m being bullied!”

    How about you look in the mirror. *You* are the bully and you’re being a bully under the guise of “Gosh, I’m just being honest!”. Vile.

  • DR

    You’re clearly a troll. Nice job displaying what “the love of Jesus” looks like to thousands of non-believers who read this blog. You’re a real witness to the Kingdom, dear. But don’t worry, as usual people like Melody will be here to clean up the mess you make (and could care less about).

  • DR

    Are you kidding me? People are driving to suicide and self-harm over all sorts of reasons. That you would actually blame the societal, collective condemnation of gay men and women by Christians on something to do with gay men and women themselves is repulsive.

  • DR

    I could care less if you want to live by Biblical standards, this has nothing to do with how you live your life. No one is trying to control the beliefs you have and want to build your behaviors around personally.

    It’s when you publicly express your views that being gay is condemned by God – when you say that to a gay kid – when you write it down on a blog or you “defend the right for it to be said in public” – that’s when you harm children.

    You’re accountable for the impact of your words. You are responsible for the damage they do, regardless of whether or not you intend to do harm.

  • DR

    Desi, you just spouting Scripture perverts it. You’re doing it because you don’t have an answer to what people are saying to you. You are *using* Scripture in order to bow out of actually having the integrity of responding thoughtfully. It’s sick to watch my fellow Christians using Scripture as a hiding place from their own lack of humility/education on this issue.

  • DR

    Of course you’re leaving because you choose to reframe the counter view (that you can’t actually respond to) as something that is disrespectful. That lacks tolerance. You do that because in your heart of hearts Desi, you know that you can’t reconcile the reality that your beliefs when expressed, hurt gay kids. They just do, there are thousands of examples. But you won’t look at those because being “right” about this issue is more important to you than the lives of those kids. It makes me sick and sad, for you but mostly for them. I pray to God you have no gay men or women in your life, least of all children. I pray they are protected from you.

  • DR

    Yeah, the “I am now being persecuted for my faith” response is always so creepy to me. I need to stop being surprised but it’s so unsettling to see the denial and the victimization happening at the same time. Ugh.

  • twoflower

    Jesus said to speak the truth, and speak it in love, which is what Kirk is doing. Disagreement is not bullying, but rather showing disrespect is. Sadly kids are being taught that disagreement with homosexuality is equated with bullying and “hatred” out of anti-Christian agenda from the gay activists right in their own schools. Temptation itself is not wrong, everyone, including Jesus, endures it, and discipline is necessary in all areas of life. Unlike any other area of life you don’t bounce back from sexual mistakes very easily. The Bible’s sexual boundaries are designed to protect our livelihood, yet these gay politics that have labeled them as “hatred” and “dangerous” to demonize Christians and victimize themselves. The Bible says everyone is a giant hypocrite, yet everyone matters to God and there’s always hope in Christ. That is not a message of “hate”, or disrespect.

    However still, Hollywood and the media bombards our culture with dumb ideas about sex and then mocks the good ones with no regard for the aftermath. Nor do they care about promoting the risks of HIV. Based on stats from the CDC, on a percentage basis, homosexual men have a 16,000% to 32,700% increased likelihood of contracting HIV over a heterosexual man.  To put this increased risk in context, consider what the CDC tells us about risk of lung cancer for men who smoke: 23x higher than for those who don’t. I’d say Kirk shows more love for gays then Hollywood does.

  • Lyn

    Kirk and his ilk have chosen a particularly nasty interpretation of scripture with no basis in historical fact to justify judgementalism toward LGBT people. It is the same instinct that informs/informed anti-Semitism, Jim Crow, anti-miscegnation laws, and anti-feminism. People are biased to mistreat others and then find Biblical excuses to do so.

    As for your statistics, show me a link to the study on the CDC site (not on some anti-gay site that likes to make up and misinterpret studies), because it smacks of the same kind of bulls**t “science” that anti-gay groups have been posting for decades now.