Are Christians No Longer Sinners?

Are Christians No Longer Sinners? May 8, 2017

Some Christians actually say that they are no longer sinners, but what does the Bible say?

All Have Sinned

When my friend and I were witnessing to a man on the street, we asked him if he was a good person and he said, “No, I’m not a good person…I’m great” to which we pointed out the Bible verse that says “None is righteous, no, not one” (Rom 3:10), so I told him that either you are right and you are a good person or the Bible is wrong and there are good people out there. In reality, the Bible isn’t very flattering to believers or to the unsaved. Our sins have separated us from God (Isaiah 59:2) and only through Christ’s perfect life of obedience can we be forgiven. I suppose if this man had a Bible, he’d blot out Romans 3, and a multitude of other Bible verses or even chapters, so we can’t deny that we are sinners and all our good works do is make us unacceptable to God. It won’t happen without Christ’s meritorious works on our behalf. God will not accept our works because they are an attempt at self-justification and Jesus warned about those who trusted in themselves and in their own righteousness. Jesus said told the Jews the Parable of the Persistent Widow and said that they are “those who trusted in themselves they were righteous, and treated others with contempt” (Luke 18:9), so, so much for their righteousness if they treat others with contempt. Sadly, they thought they were righteous but were actually wearing filthy rags before God (Isaiah 59:2) and God will not accept their filthy works because even their best works cannot save them.

Wages of Sin

If we claim to have no sin, the Apostle John says we are liars. I’m not saying that…but God’s Word does as John writes “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” and “If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us” (1st John 1:8, 10), so to say you have no sin is to declare these verses wrong. We had a man join our church once who hated our prayers about being sinners and he said that he was not a sinner. I told him what Martin Luther said that we’re sinners, yet saints, and obviously, a work in progress, but truly, we all earn what we deserve and the wages of our sins is death (Rom 6:23), and since all of us fall far short of God’s glory (Rom 3:23), we’ve got a huge problem that we cannot solve, but until a person confesses their sins, they don’t admit what the Scriptures have said, and that is there is not one who has not sinned. Only Jesus was without sin but no other human in history can make that claim. The man did say he used to be a sinner, but not anymore, so I asked him if he’s ever told a lie since he’s been saved…and all he could do is say nothing.

If-we-say-we-have-not (2)

Jesus Died for Sinners

For the man who declared he was not a sinner, my heart felt sadness for him because I told him, “I am sorry you’re not a sinner because Jesus came to die for sinners,” and if you’re not a sinner anymore, why wouldn’t you be in heaven. He had no answer. He simply kept justifying himself by his good works but I pointed out to him, “I wouldn’t trust the best 5 minutes of my life to save me.” His own good works and mine are nothing but filthy rags before God (Isaiah 64:6). Job said “What is man, that he should be pure, Or he who is born of a woman, that he should be righteous” (John 15:14)? Obviously the answer to this rhetorical question is men and women are not righteous, and if they think they are, their perception is not reality. We don’t even seek after God (Rom 3:11) because dead men can’t seek (Eph 2:1), so this man who kept justifying himself ignored biblical teaching that “All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one” (Rom 3:12), and “none” in any language adds up to zero!

Works = Nothing

Most world religions teach that you must do this and do that…and if you don’t, then you have nothing, but Christianity is not as much a religion as it is a relationship, and it is not about “do, do, do” but is “done” in Jesus Christ. The truth is “all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them” (Gal 3:10), so “no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith” (Gal 3:11). Thankfully, “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us” (Gal 3:13a) and this is so that “so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith” (Gal 3:14).

Conclusion

Only God is good, as Jesus said, and He would know good better than we, so the fact is none of us are really good in ourselves because we’ve all fallen infinitely short of God’s glory, but Jesus has closed that gap on sinful creatures by His atoning death and we can receive the very righteousness of God through Jesus Christ (2nd Cor 5:21) and certainly not on our own merit or good works (Eph 2:8-9), but this takes the Spirit of God to make us new creations in Jesus Christ. The old creature cant’ do it…they are sinners, and even after conversion, the sin nature doesn’t automatically stop (Rom 7), so we will never be sinless this side of the veil…but we should at least be sinning less, but not ever sinless…until we are finally saved to sin no more.

Article by Jack Wellman

Jack Wellman is Pastor of the Mulvane Brethren Church in Mulvane Kansas. Jack is host of Spiritual Fitness and also the Senior Writer at What Christians Want To Know whose mission is to equip, encourage, and energize Christians and to address questions about the believer’s daily walk with God and the Bible. You can follow Jack on Google Plus or check out his book Teaching Children the Gospel available on Amazon.

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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • I think some churches emphasize sin to the extend that they do not have another message. “You are a sinner! Repent!” is most of their message, but what about a child of God? Is sin their greatest attribute? After being born again? Is sin the only way to God? It is sad that we only come to God because of our sin. Perhaps, one day we will come to Him, not only to find forgiveness, but because we love Him…

    • Jack Wellman

      Matt 7:15-23 is much about doing human works but their being worthless to God.

      • Iain Lovejoy

        I can’t see how you get this from the text at all. Verses 15-19 are crystal clear that it is by whether good or ill is produced that a person is judged, that good fruit is a good thing and wanted, and the remainder of the chapter absolutely about doing the will of God being good, not bad. The “works” condemned are signs, wonders and prophesies which are *not* good deeds, and which do not produce “good fruit”. This section follows on immediately from Matthew 5 which is Jesus’s ethical teaching and Matthew 6 where he condemns ostentatious religiosity: it says plain as day it is at least a heart for good works God wants, even if (which I agree) we fail and fail again without his aid.

        • Pastors Mark & Valeri Testerma

          Father – I want to thank you that Jesus shed His blood to reconcile the entire world back to You. Jesus’ precious blood was sufficient, we can add nothing to it or subtract anything from it. It is Christ alone.

          I pray that “Pud” would come to the revelation of just how much you love him/her. I pray that the damage, caused from Pud’s own earthly father would be healed in the Name of Jesus.

          Great Grace, Such Grace

          Pastor Mark

          • Iain Lovejoy

            I share your prayers for “Pud”, but neither you nor I have any idea what makes “Pud” so angry about things. I don’t think amateur psychobabble about father issues is terribly helpful however: a bad experience with Christians or Christianity seems more likely.
            (BTW, that is not to say that every atheist is one because they have necessarily had a bad experience with Christians, only that the level of vitriol from “Pud” suggests this may have occurred.)

          • Pastors Mark & Valeri Testerma

            Hello lain Lovejoy,

            Thank you for your response and for your correct perspective. I do see my short coming in being presumptuous regarding Pud. For this I apologize and ask for forgiveness.

            As a Shepherd, my heart reaches out to the hurting and it is quite obvious that Pud is hurting. My prayer is that Pud will find the peace that comes through knowing Jesus.

            My gifting and calling, however, is to minister the gospel. I exercise this wonderful privilege in the church I pastor.

            I will leave these forums to those such as yourself that are gifted and called to this area of ministry.

            God Bless your ministry,

            Pastor Mark J Testerman

      • pud

        Of course!! Being worthless is key! You must constantly drill into gullible minds how sick and filthy they are before you offer the cure! For the low low cost of their critical faculties

        • Rudy Schellekens

          Last time I checked, my critical faculties were just fine. They work better than yours, obviously, because I don’t need to insult people to get my thoughts across. How about telling me what made you reach YOUR conclusion(s) about the Bible??

          • pud

            No they are not…you are willfully delusional. Insulting has nothing to do with the truth of my comments. The fact that you lunatics care more about the delivery than the message only proves my point that you KNOW nothing and don’t ever care to.

            I’ve studied your book and other religious books. I know the history of religion as far back as it goes….I KNOW that you are all delusional.

          • Rudy Schellekens

            ad hominem [(ad hom-uh-nem, ad hom-uh-nuhm)] A Latin expression meaning “to the man.”
            An ad hominem argument is one that relies on personal attacks rather than reason or substance.
            Care to rethink your statement that “insulting had nothing to do with the truth of my comments…”?

          • pud

            Demonstrate the truth of a single one of your absurd claims…just one. Show how it is empirically true…your best one…any one…try.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    “all our good works do is make us unacceptable to God”
    There you go beyond and against what the Bible actually says. It is true that the Bible is clear we don’t earn salvation by doing good deeds, and that we cannot perfect ourselves by our own efforts, but the idea that God is hostile to our attempts to do good, or is against what imperfect good we do, certainly doesn’t follow from this, and I am not aware of any Biblical justification or indeed any logic for asserting this.

    • Patrick Barton

      Tend to agree here. Also, as a challenge although I agree with the retort to the “we don’t sin anymore crew”, there are the bizarre passages also in I John stating exactly the opposite of I John 1:10. That if you still sin, you are not associated with God.

      I think passages like these or Pauline passages that state eschatological ideas can cause some Christians to believe they don’t sin anymore just cause.

      The idea of 2 voices in the NT is more and more appealing to me. You can’t stand I John 1:10 next to I John 3:6 w/o your brain exploding.

      • pud

        You are all lunatics…one version or the other equally warped and deranged in your thinking. Sad

      • Iain Lovejoy

        I have had a look at 1 John 1-3 and I think that the problem only arises if you are determined to impose upon the text the idea that some people are elect and saved and some irrevocably damned and look to the text to tell you who is in which camp.
        In so far as we do not sin we remain in God, in so far as we sin it is because to that extent we have failed to know and recognise him. While we keep our eyes on God we do not sin, as soon as take our eyes off him (“take our eyes off the ball” as it were) we start to fall into sin and away from him, and need to turn back to him again (which is what “repent” means). At least I think that is basically what John is saying.

  • pud

    Of course! You and your cult must constantly remind yourselves that you are scum and filth….fortunately there’s a cure!! Just “believe” nonsense! That and talk about blood sacrifice, mumble to yourself in your head (prayer) get together with other cult members to lend delusional support and…most importantly…do not care for what is actually true!

    Trust in the invisible angels, deity, spirits, and the words in an ancient book of hearsay upon ridiculous hearsay! Yeah, that’s the ticket!

    Utter the right kind of nonsense, believe the right version of the absurd and maybe, just maybe the creator of the entire universe will save you from himself! LOL How in hell can you lunatics buy into this?

  • Jack Wellman

    Pray for Pud. I can’t see his personal attacks and name calling, since he cannot answer with reasonable responses. This woman is lost.

    • Iain Lovejoy

      Come now, given the infinite power and mercy of God you can’t write anyone off as irretrievably lost, however annoying. He / she may be pretty badly mislaid, though, I’ll grant you, and I don’t have to put up with him / her on my blog!
      I agree there’s no point in replying to this sort of thing, but maybe it is encouraging (albeit perhaps a pain for you) that he / she is still interested enough and engaged enough to want to read, for all the attempts at being obnoxious.
      (BTW What makes you think he / she is a woman?)

      • pud

        Prove it. Demonstrate the “infinite power and mercy” of this invisible man made gawd….waiting..

    • pud

      Nothing fails like prayer. Grow up jack…time to grow up and join the rational world. Harry Potter isn’t real.

    • pud

      You don’t answer at all! LOL You cower behind your pulpit refusing to debate me in the full knowledge you have nothing but an empty sack

    • Miranda

      Truly we must pray for people like this individual just as much as we pray for ourselves. I pray,
      Glorious God exalt the words of Your Son, Our Saviour, through whom we may be brought back into Your blessing, upon the Cross, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

  • Rudy Schellekens

    I am one of those who say that Christians are no longer sinners. And I do this based on what the Bible has to say, within its context.

    Jesus died for us while we WERE sinners. Past tense
    Jesus’ blood cleanses us from all sin. Present tense.
    We ARE holy – present tense
    We ARE saints – present tense
    We ARE God’s children – present tense
    Since we can be children of ONE only, we either are children of light, or children of darkness.
    We are born anew.
    We are dressed in new garments
    We may be too worldly at times, but we are NEVER referred to as sinners!
    All have sinned – yes, but something happened with those who have been baptized into Christ.
    They are a NEW creation.
    They are FORGIVEN.
    They are CLEANSED.

    Sinners is a term used for people who live their lives that way. “Such WERE some of you…”
    Sinners are people who live in darkness.

    There is a difference in the concept of “being sinners” and “sinning.” Both are lifestyles. 1 John 3 gives us a good summation. Paul’s conversation and despair – and exclamation of hope and surety – in Romans 7 give us an apostolic picture.

    When children of God keep referring to themselves as “sinners,” the work of God is denied.

    As far as the statement in 1 John 1 is concerned, CONTEXTUALLY that refers to people who CLAIM to walk in the light, but DO the works of darkness. Those make God a liar – since He is the one who has the right to define what is good, and what is not.

    • Myrtle Linder

      You are also full of self glory! Your sins are not forgiven before you commit them, and yo must ask forgiveness when you sin.1 John 1:8-10 If we say you have no sin, you lie and the truth is not in you!! If we confess our sins, HE is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us!!

      • Rudy Schellekens

        I guess you did not read what I wrote. All the way through I wrote about the things GOD did, not what I did.
        Also, I guess you do not read the context of the passage you so happily quote.
        Apart from that, I would suggest you read 1 John 3.
        Not only that, but take another look at the oft misquoted statement about the righteousness of people in romans 3.
        The contact there is not a universal condemnation, but contextually it speaks of Jews and romans, and their relationship to the Law.
        After all, we KNOW there are righteous people. Think of Noah. Think of Job.

        • Myrtle Linder

          Thanks, for the added scriptures, how is that Scripture connected to 1 John 1:8-10. That leads me to think I’d best “Pray with ceasing!”

          It is far easier to think evil, to make unfair judgments, etc, etc. I’ll pray and ask HIM to forgive me of my sins. The only point in life when we are not subject to sin is when we are unconscious! We will stand before HIM, Matthew 25: 31-46. Wake up, before it is too late, self righteousness will not save you!

          • Rudy Schellekens

            Interesting that you have no Scripture to support your outlook. You seem to totally ignore what God has done to us and for us.

          • pud

            Demonstrate empirically ANYTHING your invisible gawd has done to us or for us….just one…prove the truth of any claim you put forward…I challenge you to even try

          • Rudy Schellekens

            The connection, the context is simple. John writes about people who CLAIM to walk in the light, but walk in darkness. Those are the ones who make God a liar.
            John writes a chapter later about those who DO walk in the light, consistently, who do not practice sin, or “sin continuously.”

          • Myrtle Linder

            I wonder what it is about Christians, most of us think that we know more about GOD’S WORD than any of the other Christians and it is impossible to see their own short comings, as in your, “Claim to walk in the light but walk in darkness!” About 80% forget that he/she will be judged in the same manner as we judge others!!!

          • Rudy Schellekens

            Well, I QUOTED and did not “interpret…” You would be amazed how much THAT helps!

        • pud

          You can show nothing. gawd did nothing…it’s a ridiculous story book..hello?

          • Rudy Schellekens

            Tell me how you reached that conclusion, rather than insulting me, how’s that for a challenge?

          • pud

            Can you SHOW empirically ANYTHING that you or your fellow lunatics claim as being true?

            No, you cannot. Not one of you can, ever has or ever will demonstrate the truth of a single claim you make. That’s what qualifies you all as insane to a greater or lessor degree. You “believe” the most absurd nonsense and don’t even care that none of it stands up to critical analysis . It’s what defines you all as a mindless cult.

          • Rudy Schellekens

            My critical faculties remind me that I asked you to tell me how you reached your conclusions.
            Making presuppositions about my conclusions is not a response.
            Try again, and impress me with YOUR critical faculties.
            Insulting people is a definite proof that you have lost faculties. It shows you have a lack of arguments, and that you can only defend by making personal attacks on those you disagree with.
            If that is what YOU shows as using critical faculties, I have little hope left.
            So, care to try and put a reasoned explanation into print??

          • pud

            Explain the physics behind creating a universe out of nothing via a magical incantation….”spoken into existence”

            Waiting….

          • Rudy Schellekens

            Actually, it is up to you to answer some questions. I asked to to explain how you reached your conclusions. So, either put up, or be quiet.
            The challenge is out there for you: Put a reasoned explanation into print, and I will gladly respond to any of those, and you will receive answers, not insults.

          • pud

            No…you make the claims that “gawd did it” now I’m demanding that you back up your claim. You claimed that your gawd “did this to and for” us…demonstrate this claim to be true.

            I know you can’t therefore I KNOW that you are a delusional wish thinking mindless cult that is totally indoctrinated and impervious to critical thought

          • Rudy Schellekens

            How did I know you would try to run away from coming up with a reasoned response? You attacked my conclusions with insults, and nothing but insults. I asked you, polite, friendly but consistently for a defense of YOUR conclusions. Telling me that I have lost my critical faculties etc. only makes it obvious. Pud, whomever it is, has no other purpose than to insult those who think different from his/her “conclusions.”
            Enjoy your game! Whenever you are ready to reason, I’ll be glad to do that.

          • pud

            I’ve asked you to “reason” and you refuse. Demonstrate that your “gawd” “did this to and for us”….You made this claim..now demonstrate how you know that it is true. Waiting….

          • Rudy Schellekens

            My very first response/posting to you: “Rudy Schellekens pud • 37 minutes ago
            Tell me how you reached that conclusion, rather than insulting me, how’s that for a challenge?”
            Your court…

          • pud

            I reached my conclusion because NONE of you EVER has been able to substantiate ANY of your absurd claims about the nature of reality….That’s why.

            Now answer either of my two questions…..The physics of creating a universe out of nothing via a spoken magical incantation and how you know that your “gawd” “did things to and for us”….your volley

          • Rudy Schellekens

            As soon as you answer my question. I’m not interested in the WHY, but in the HOW.
            See, I’m using my critical faculties!! Just because you cannot grasp something does not make it false. I have had smart people try to explain quantum physics to me, but I just am not wired for such things. But that does not make them untrue. So, again, HOW did you reach that conclusion? Arguments? Logic. Reasoned, not reasoned (O, wow, again, dem logical faculties at work!)

          • pud

            Contradictions, impossibilities of your claims being true, logical fallacies (your gawd cannot be both omnipotent and omniscient) etc.

            Now answer my questions

          • Rudy Schellekens

            “Contradictions, impossibilities of your claims being true, logical fallacies (your gawd cannot be both omnipotent and omniscient) etc.” again the WHY. NOW THE HOW…

          • pud

            How what? LOL…I don’t buy into your absurd cult BECAUSE…it is full of demonstrable falsehoods, contradictions, impossible claims etc…there’s nothing more to add..hello? This is WHY there is no HOW. Now answer my two questions!

          • Rudy Schellekens

            Show me some of these “Demonstrable falsehoods, contradictions…” And as you show them, tell me HOW YOU DECIDED these to be “demonstrable falsehoods, contradictions, impossible claims…”
            Show me logical arguments. Show me evidences. Or, as teachers would say, “Show me product, how did you get to your answer…”
            Very simple question…

          • pud

            Logical fallacies don’t need me to decide they are false..they are false by definition..axiomatic

            Your gawd cannot be omnipotent and omniscient. It is impossible to be all powerful and have perfect knowledge of the future. If you know the future you are powerless to change it and if you can change it then you don’t know what it is. duh

            Dead men do not come back to life….prayer does nothing (empirically demonstrated in many university tests)…there was no global flood…the earth is not 6000 years old…the bible is not the “perfect word” of a gawd or there wouldn’t be 40,000 different denominations. There is NO evidence whatsoever for anything supernatural. There is NO evidence for demons, devils, angels, hell, heaven, invisible saviors, miracles etc etc etc….all vacuous claims.

            Now I’m not going to write you a textbook….this is WHY and HOW I know your cult is nonsense…now answer my 2 direct questions!

          • Rudy Schellekens

            Once again, much ad hominem, no logic. What ARE the logical fallacies? I agree fully that fallacies are, well, fallacies. But you will need to PROVE they are fallacies. CLAIMING them to be such does not make them such. For you to CLAIM you are the smartest person, possessed of all logical faculties… But that does not make you so.
            And, I’m sorry to say this, but so far, you have not shown to have your logical faculties!
            You have shown me why you DECIDED things to be wrong. No logic there. You have claimed things to be impossible. No logic there. So far, the only truthful and logical claim you have made? Logical fallacies are false.

          • pud

            1st paragraph I wrote IS A LOGICAL PROOF showing the impossibility of your gawd having both properties. You are wasting my time like most inept “believers” of nonsense do.

            Answer my 2 questions or we are done

          • Rudy Schellekens

            “Logical fallacies don’t need me to decide they are false..they are false by definition..axiomatic” Your first paragraph.

            Your second paragraph, “be omnipotent and omniscient. It is impossible to be all powerful and have perfect knowledge of the future”
            Show me why that is impossible for God??

          • pud

            LOL!!!!!!

            Show me any gawd exists first!

            It’s a self evident logical proof dummy! If anything (gawd or not) claims to KNOW the future then he, she ,it is impotent to change it! Hellooo? If it changed it then its knowledge of it would have been false….ask a 3d grader to explain this further if you’re still having trouble.

            Now. Last time…either you answer my 2 questions or this is my last reply to you.

          • Rudy Schellekens

            If one claims to know the future, what makes you think it would be impossible for such to CHANGE that future?
            Make the logical argument that proves your case…

          • Myrtle Linder

            I think, you are wasting your time on this infidel, who is only looking for someone to fight with!!!!

          • pud

            You can try your hand at answering the very reasonable request to demonstrate the truth of all the claims you make…try…embarrass yourself

          • Evermyrtle

            Can you prove it untrue, even with all if Satan’s evil knowledge/acts/works, right at your finger tips, that you idolize?

            Are you really concerned about what we believe or it it that you, somewhere in the back of your mind, know that GOD the Creator, and HIS SON JESUS CHRIST , hung the world in space and put man on it or does Satan give you points for those that you may be able to bring along with you, against GOD!

            Antichrist fools are a dime a dozen!!

          • pud

            You really are a full fledged simple minded bumpkin aren’t you?

            Can you prove that universe farting pixies don’t exist? Or magical invisible green unicorns don’t exist? Do you have enough brain cells to understand that the NO ONE can prove a negative! It is incumbent on the person making the claim to back it up!

            Satan…hahahhahahaa! What other invisible creatures do you believe in? How many can you actually demonstrate are real? I’ll answer for you….NONE!

            Demonstrate that any mythical creatures such as your CHURCH made up Satin exist…just one….try…go ahead..embarrass yourself

            You “believe” crap like a small child would….absent any critical thought you live in a fantasy world populated by INVISIBLE beings and creatures….make the case that you’re either not insane or not double digit IQ level

        • Evermyrtle

          Actually, I think that I put my blog in the wrong place, as I was not referring to anything that you wrote, I apologize

      • Rudy Schellekens

        Context:
        “If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. ”

        Context:
        Psalm 14 “The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good. The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one. Do all the workers of wickedness not know, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call upon the Lord? There they are in great dread, For God is with the righteous generation. “

        • Myrtle Linder

          You believe GOD made you and that your mother should have slain you, before you could get into the world? Maybe you are right, or were you only talking about other mothers?

          Given a choice, do you think there is a possibility, these babies would liked to live and see what life is like, too?

          • Rudy Schellekens

            ????????????? Totally lost on this one. What does that have to do with ANYTHING I have sent???

        • pud

          LOL..always the “context” out. Pitiful

      • Catherine Peters DeVries

        You need to accept that one major definition of a Christian is “One who has all his sin forgiven — past, present, future.”
        This is true. Yet a Christian still commits sins. Their “standing” as a Christian does not change but the idea of fellowship hurting is what happens.
        One of my greatest takeaways from my career in engineering is to understand something like state variables. All persons are in the “state” of sin before the salvation experience. In that state, the person commits sins that are not forgiven since they have not been confessed along with repentance.
        Upon accepting Jesus Christ as personal Savior, confessing sin (and sins) and committing to serve Him, the now born-again Christian is no longer in the “state” of being in sin. But sins will still be committed that need to be confessed. This demonstrates the two often overlooked definitions of “Sin” vs. “sins.”
        Rich DeVries, I am no longer “In sin” but do commit “sins” that need to be confessed (unless my death should occur without confession, yet I am “in Christ” and will go to Him because they are already forgiven.

        • Myrtle Linder

          There is no Scripture mentioning future sins being forgiven, I only go by scriptures from The HOLY WORD OF GOD!

          I love, read, study and believe the scriptures, wholeheartedly, it is your self righteous interpretations that any person with true Bible knowledge and acceptance would always question!!

          • Alex Voon

            Myrtle, you are absolutely correct that There is no Scripture mentioning future sins being forgiven.

        • Myrtle Linder

          Write in your search bar, “Does GOD forgive future sins” to get another “opinion”! It is so sad, that
          self -righteousness will not save one, we will all stand before HIM, and be judged, Matthew 25:31-46.

          • Rudy Schellekens

            Have you read Ephesians? Colossians? Romans? Galatians? 1 John? 1 Peter? 2 Peter?
            I do not need a search bar when I have access to the Bible. I have shared Scripture with you. Are you saying those are not true??

          • Myrtle Linder

            I have read the WORD Of GOD completely through from Genesis 1:1 through Revelation 22:21, including Ephesians, Colossians, Romans Galatians, all of the Johns, and Peter.

            I made a oath to myself at about age 15, to read some scriptures, every day, if possible. There have been very few days since 1945 that I did not read in GOD’S WORD.

            I am now 86 and still there is so much that I do not know or understand, and am still trying to understand what GOD would have me to understand by reading scriptures, everyday and Bible study.

            With your post, you make me think that maybe, you are
            GOD’S special agent, making no errors against HIM. Like I have said before, self righteousness will do nothing for you, before GOD!! Thank you, for your thoughts!

          • Rudy Schellekens

            In other words, you do not believe what Paul, peter, John, and God himself have to say on this subject??

          • pud

            You do not even know who actually wrote that nonsense. No, I don’t believe the ridiculous or absurd. Do you believe the words of Joseph Smith, the Buddah, Mohamed? Why not?

          • pud

            No you haven’t…you read the words of demented superstitious religious lunatics from thousands of years ago. Fixed it for you.

          • Myrtle Linder

            When you stand before HIM and getting judged, you most likely will remember the above insanity that you believe and printed!!!

        • pud

          Gibberish. Proof only that reasonably intelligent people who can hold technical professions can be equally delusional and warped in their thinking as Alabama trailer trash

        • Alex Voon

          Myrtle is absolutely correct that There is no Scripture mentioning future sins being forgiven.
          He who sins because he has disobeyed the doctrine of Christ will be judged for he does not have Christ.
          It is very important that we be very careful that we must have both Christ and the right doctrine for I know that it is another spirit that dwells in some who claims to have Christ. They think they have Christ dwelling in them because they believe Him but in their life they transgressed against the doctrine of Christ. This I found out after years of testing many believers throughout my ministry.
          2 John 1: 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
          1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
          Satan, the prince of the power of the air, is the spirit that is now working in the children of disobedience:
          Ep 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
          Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
          27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
          28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
          There are much more false doctrines besides the Catholic Mass Holy Communion,Trinity, Law and Legalism, etc. than we imagined and I am constantly seeking for Truth so that I may abide in the doctrine of Christ for if we seek, we will find. Praise God.

          • Rudy Schellekens

            I don’t think anyone has said that future sins are already forgiven. And, if we want to stay within the 1 letter of John, let’s be complete, okay?
            First, within the gospel of John, it is stated that those who do not believe (trust in and obey) Christ, are already condemned. Note that there is no mention of living a life filled with doing bad things?
            Second, within the context of 1st John we need to start in the first chapter. Does anyone need a reminder that the division in chapters was done by later humans, rather than by the original writer? If so, let me know!
            By the time John writes this letter, there are issues with a certain sect of Gnosticism, the Docetists. Their commonality with the “regular” Gnostics was the idea that only the spirit mattered. the body was inherently sinful, because it consisted of matter – which was sinful. The spirit, however, could maintain that special Gnostic purity. This led to Christians being seduced by the idea that “…my body can be involved in everything that is darkness, as long as I keep my spirit in the Light…”
            That is the first warning John delivers: Those who claim to walk in the light but do the works of darkness… These are the people he addresses when he says, “He who claims to be without sin…” Sin is what God has decided it to be. Not defined in human terms, but on God’s terms.
            John makes it clear that those who walk in the light are “continually cleansed by the blood…” Says nothing, by the way, about “future sins.”
            Then in chapter 3 he speaks of two conflicting lifestyles. Those who practice sin and unrighteousness, and those who practice righteousness.
            Since you quoted the KJV in this, let me do the same. Children of God CANNOT sin…” That this is an incorrect statement is obvious. But children of righteousness do not continue to practice, live a life based on and filled with sinful behavior. They cannot do that, because they are born of a different Father!
            That is the context of John. Then in chapter 4 there is barely any mention of sin, and there, at the end of chapter 5, the topic comes back. Too many people have issues with this passage. The “sin that leads to death…” has nothing to do with blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, but everything to do with a person the believer who keeps on sinning, knowingly and willfully, without repentance.
            Pray for such a one, because you never know, it may have an impact, and a life is changed!

          • Alex Voon

            Thanks Rudy, I agree with you. We must practice righteousness i.e. also to obey the law of Moses and commandments of Christ.
            Please refer to Catherine Peters Devries comment as follows.
            You need to accept that one major definition of a Christian is “One who has all his sin forgiven — past, present, future.”

          • Rudy Schellekens

            Actually, from your statement it is clear you do not agree with me:
            1. As Christians, we are not bound to the Law of Moses. That was for the Israelites, and was done away at the cross. Ephesians 2 makes THAT clear. The same author, Paul, makes it even more clear in his letter to the Colossians, that physical circumcision is a mutilation of the flesh.
            2. I do not have to accept your definition of “Christian,” since it is not a Biblical definition. It is nowhere a definition of “Christian,” let alone one “major” definition.
            3. PAST sin is forgiven. There is forgiveness available for present and future sin – but it is definitely not “pre-forgiven.”
            1 John 5 is obviously stating such, as are passages like Hebrews 12 and many others.

          • Alex Voon

            Your views are the teachings from today’s Churches Misconceptions of error teachings by the Fathers of the Church (They are anti Jews who are not the apostles in the bible) which I once believed for many years. I have been set free when I learn from others, saints who have debunked the false doctrines of men with scriptures
            1. Though we are not under the Law of Moses yet we must obey the Law of Moses. Christ provided for atonement of our sins but He cannot annul the law. Paul is Not Greater than Christ and his writings Cannot Annul the Law of Moses. It is the error teachings by the Fathers of the Church who are anti Jews that teaches the Law is done away. They wrongly interpret what Paul meant. Mat 5:17,18. Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (i.e no more remission of Sins).
            The Law was never abolished by Christ (Mat 5:17 – 18)
            We establish the laws (Romans 3::31)
            When Christ return anyone who does not keep the law of Moses will be judged guilty of breaking the law i.e. sin. (Isa 66 : 15 – 17, 22 – 24)
            Heb 8:8 – God new covenant is Not a new covenant made with Gentiles. God new covenant is made with the Jews, the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: It is still a covenant which contains the Law of Moses for the Law was never abolished by Christ. 1 Cor 11:2 Paul reminds the brethren to keep the ordinances.
            Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being “aliens from the commonwealth of Israel”, and strangers from the covenants. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens of “Israel” the household of God with the “Jewish” saints, and of “Israel” the household of God;
            We are now (grafted into) “Israel” the household of God, in the new covenant (Not made with Gentiles but) with the Jews, the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
            Formerly we are Not His people. Now we are. God intend to put His laws into our mind, and write them in our hearts so that we will obey all of His laws.
            Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
            If physical circumcision is a mutilation of the flesh. Why did Paul circumcise Timothy who is a Greek as Paul took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek (Acts 16:3)? The context in Gal 5 is that some Jews insisted that circumcision is mandatory for salvation (this is salvation by works of the law which Paul is contending with the Jewish sect at the time). Paul would never preach against the laws of God but he instruct us to obey all the laws of God in order to establish the laws of God in God’s house (the house of Israel and the house of Judah).
            2. I do not accept the definition of “Christian” as the mainline churches define it. We who follows Not the institutional church but follows the doctrine of Christ are the true disciples of Christ, we are members of the body of Christ joint together as The One Body.
            3. I fully agree. PAST sin is forgiven. There is forgiveness available for present and future sin – but it is definitely not “pre-forgiven.”

          • Jack Wellman

            How many of your and my sins were still ahead of us when Jesus died? ALL of them.

      • Jack Wellman

        Amen…spot on the mark. Thank you Myrtle.

        • Evermyrtle

          Thanks, it helps GOD’S people to get a little encouragement!

    • pud

      Ridiculous nonsense for the gullible, ignorant and credulous. Repeat the party/cult lines all you want they still remain absurd

    • Jack Wellman

      What do you say to 1 John 1:8, 10?

      • Rudy Schellekens

        Within the context of the passage – the statement refers to those who CLAIM to walk in the light, but do not ACT that way. Within the background of the passage, it is the behavior of the Gnostic, who claim that the body can do anything it wants to, as long as the mind stays clear.
        BTW – I have never claimed that the children no longer sin. As John writes in chapter 3, they no longer PRACTICE sin, i.e. make it an habitual lifestyle.
        My argument is that using the term “sinners” for the children of God nullifies all that the cross stands for.
        Last week I spent some time going through the first half of Paul’s letter to the Corinthians. His first reference to them is “…To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people…”
        And when you read through the next 5 chapters, Paul has every opportunity and reason to use the term sinners – but NEVER refers to them as such, except in the PAST sense.

    • Ivan Marecic

      Can you explain 1 Timothy 1:15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.?

      • Rudy Schellekens

        Contextually, Paul makes a point. “12 I thank him who has given me strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful, appointing me to his service, 13 though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, 14 and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. 16 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. 17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever.[d] Amen.”
        Jesus came into the world to save sinners – and I am one of the most important ones…
        FORMERLY I was…
        Paul uses this expression, “formerly… I was…, you were…” a number of times, each time describing their FORMER lifestyle, the life of the old self, which has been laid off. Or, in the words of Paul…
        “But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.”
        In the words of John:
        Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s[b] seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

        “Sinner” is a term for those who have not been washed in His blood; those who have not been raised up into newness of life; those who are still wearing the old; those who have not called upon His name, washing away their sins. Sinner is the term for those who have not been made righteous through the blood of God’s Son.

        Calling a child of God a “sinner” as the term is used in the Bible is almost blasphemy – denying what God has done in Christ!

        I like the ESV rendition of 1 John 3 – one who practices, makes a habit, continually, does not know any other way to behave. Not so the children of God. They practice righteousness, make a habit, do not know any other way to behave.

        So, now to the point that some have made: Does a Christian not sin? NEVER have I said that. But when a Christian sins habitually, practices sin, something went wrong – they made ‘shipwreck of their faith…

        Back to the words of Paul:
        “So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?”

        Paul shows how much of a struggle there is between the desire to do good, and the evil that tempts, And, sadly, too many stop reading after, “What a wretched man I am…” the next statement makes it clear where our eyes should be focussed:
        “Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.

        There is a chapter break here, that should never have been placed in this spot, because it separates this form the rest of the text:

        “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit…”.

        Because of what Christ has done: Set us free from the law of sin and death! There are not enough exclamation points to add here! WE do not live according to the flesh! We live according to the Spirit. And that is what makes God no longer look at us as sinners, but as his children, or, again in the words of Paul, “fellow heirs with Christ.”

  • Myrtle Linder

    Thanks for a great and well though through the problem answer to the problem of “How Good I Am or Am Not.” We need to read Psalms 103, I especially like verse 8!!

  • pud

    Or you could say an anthropromorphic invisible deity did it with a magical incantation!

    Scientists in South Africa reveal more on human-like species
    WAVY-TV – ‎46 minutes ago‎
    A replica skull of a species belonging to the human family tree whose remnants were first discovered in a South African cave in 2013 is held at the unveiling at the Maropeng Museum, near Magaliesburg, South Africa, Tuesday, May 9, 2017.
    Ancient human cousin found in South Africa is surprisingly youngThe Verge
    Homo naledi: Back in the day, these guys walked around Africa with humansUSA TODAY
    In Depth:Homo naledi’s surprisingly young age opens up more questions on where we come fromScience Daily
    See realtime coverage »

    Seeker
    ‘Baby Louie’ Solves Dinosaur Development Mysteries
    Seeker – ‎56 minutes ago‎
    A dinosaur embryo named ‘Baby Louie’ and its unhatched siblings were incubated by a gigantic parent that closely resembled one of today’s most ornery birds.
    First baby of a gigantic Oviraptor-like dinosaur belongs to a new speciesEurekAlert (press release)
    Smuggled dino eggs gave birth to ‘baby dragons’Science Magazine

  • pud

    OH NO! Can’t be true! Gawd created man and rib woman along with a talking snake 6000 years ago!!

    Oldest evidence of life on land found in 3.48-billion-year-old Australian rocks
    Phys.Org – ‎1 hour ago‎
    Ridges in the ancient Dresser Formation in the Pilbara Craton of Western Australia that preserve ancient stromatolites and hot spring deposits.
    Oldest land-based fossils ever discovered suggest Charles Darwin was right about the origin of lifeThe Independent
    3.5-billion-year-old fossils hint life evolved in pond, not seaNew Scientist

  • Religible

    Interesting stuff. But it seems just to be a regurgitation of the basics…

  • pud

    Stop deleting my comments coward. Stand up for yourself instead of manipulating the comments that challenge your absurd notions of reality.

  • pud

    Selling snake oil to the gullible, stupid and credulous

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncrIBxj1OGI

  • pud

    One of the biggest religious frauds out there…proven fraud yet millions of gullible “believers” flock to him and empty their pockets for his feel good bullshit …Watch it cowards! Defend yourself don’t cower and hide from the TRUTH!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncrIBxj1OGI

  • Sam Andrew

    The concept of people having a ‘sin nature’ and being unable to do anything good of their own accord is very peculiar to a certain reading of Pauline Christianity and is very unlikely to be what Jesus had in mind regarding sin and repentance. The Torah that Jesus was an interpreter of was very clear that people are able to choose and do good of their own accord, notably in Deuteronomy Chapter 30, “if you turn unto the Lord thy God with all your heart and with all your soul; for this commandment which I command you this day is not too hard for you neither is it too far off…. therefore choose life, that you may live, you and your seed;” is clear that people can act in ways pleasing to God as Jesus understood it.

    In addition numerous people in the Old Testament are referred to as being righteous based on their actions, e.g. “Jehoash did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord” 2Kings 12.

    And further still it seems Gods preferred method of repentance is not belief in Jesus, or some vicarious atonement rather
    “The soul that sins, it shall die!…The righteousness of the righteous person shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked person shall be upon him. As for the wicked man, if he should turn away from all his sins which he did, and safeguard all My decrees, and do justice and righteousness; he shall surely live. He will not die. All his transgressions which he committed will not be remembered against him. For the righteousness which he did, he shall live. Do I desire at all the death of the wicked man — the words of my Lord, God — is it not rather his return from his ways, that he might live?” Ezekiel 18:20-23

    I’m not sure how Paul and other New Testament authors view on the nature of sin and atonement, as interpreted here can remain plausible given that the Old Testament clearly presents a different view and those were the very scriptures and ideas Jesus himself considered authoritative…after all Jesus called people to repent, not to worship, believe in or have ‘relationship’ with him – all that was his later supposed followers doing.

    • Rudy Schellekens

      Appreciate your notes! Numbers 5, 6 have a repetition of the phrase, “And atonement has been made…”
      Paul has a very understandable idea of sin, consequences and redemption. Romans 7 ends with his lament, “O wretched man…” but leads into the shout, “Thanks be to God…!”
      But reading Romans through the lens of Calvin and Rome distorts Paul’s view.

  • Alex Voon

    Below are today’s Churches Misconceptions of error teachings by the Fathers of the Church (They are anti Jews who are not the apostles in the bible) starting from perhaps about 150 AD after the demise of apostle John, Clement, Hermas and Polycarp.

    1. Most world religions teach that you must do this and do that…and if you don’t, then you have nothing, but Christianity is not as much a religion as it is a relationship, and it is not about “do, do, do” but is “done” in Jesus Christ.

    Alex: not about “do, do, do” but is “done” in Jesus Christ is to say that we do not have to follow what the law of God commands us to do or not to do. This is to say the law has been done away with by Christ and to obey the law is legalism. It does not regard what Jesus said “Think not I come to abolish the law and prophet” . But Jesus fulfilled the law so we think that Jesus abolished the law??? That is to say Jesus came to do His own thing contrary to the Father’s Will (Heb 8: 8 – 10 In NT, God will put His law in us)??? Not so, The law is valid now and forever and Jesus will judge everyone who breaks the law on Judgement Day. Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
    * Your faith is dead without works ( that is if you do not obey the law of God ) because you have become a lawless person.
    I remind that the law of Moses IS the Word of God.
    Jesus IS the Word of God.
    They are both the same (thing).
    Legalism is a term often used by false prophets to mock God and those that obey the law of God.

    2. The truth is “all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them” (Gal 3:10), so “no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith”

    Alex: True, “no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith”.
    We think that we are righteous in Christ, thus we need not obey the law of God (including to keep the Sabbath and feasts) anymore because no one is able to do so as we will fail. Wrong! 1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, for he reject the law and the Truth is not in him. Because the law IS Truth. Ps 119:150 They draw nigh that follow after mischief: they are far from thy law.
    151 Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy (law) commandments are truth.
    * Because he that obey the law is he that doeth righteousness for the law is righteous. He that keepeth not his (law) commandments, sin and the truth is not in him. Thus you are called the righteous if you obey the law and the righteous shall live by faith. Shall live by faith means to be forgiven of your sins in Christ and continue to obey Him including all the law and commandments. As man shall live by every Word that God had said (Mat 4:4), Our Faith is to do every Word that God had said. Jesus cannot nullify a single Word that God had said.
    Jesus fulfilled the law but did not nullified the law as Paul concluded that though we are counted righteous in Christ but we must establish i.e. to obey and keep the law (Romans 3:31). Please see 119 ministry in youtube for more teachings of law.

    3. … so we will never be sinless this side of the veil…but we should at least be sinning less, but not ever sinless…until we are finally saved to sin no more.

    Alex: If we obey the Holy Spirit, He will enable us to obey the law of God. If we obey our own flesh, we becomes the enemy of God because we can never obey the law. We shall live if we obey the Holy Spirit. But we will die if we obey our own flesh because we will reject and break the law of God.

    We must obey the Holy Spirit, (Romans 8:4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    In other word we Also fulfill the law if we obey the Holy Spirit.
    Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    The most deadly Lie of Satan is the law has been done away with as Many do not keep the law of God. There is the law of God (Torah) and the law of men (Talmud) that we must obey Torah but we must Not obey the law of men (Talmud).

    Alex: Therefore do and keep all the Word, law and commandments of God with the help of the Holy Spirit until we are finally saved to sin no more.
    Shalom.

  • satuit_i

    Trump offers a much clearer vision of salvation that seems to have been taken up by Evangelicals – do what you like, don’t feel bad, lying is fun, what sin?

    • Christiane Smith

      I fear that Trump has influenced the fundamentalist-evangelicals in a far worse way: he has got them to be ‘loyal’ to him by not criticizing his brutal inhumane treatment of the asylum babies and toddlers. There are some things about this that frighten me for the souls of those Christians who support him in this evil. And it IS evil.

      Silence, in the face of wrong doing, is complicity. I caution Christian people to speak out for those who are being persecuted and who have no power and no voice, especially for the sake of the little ones. The angels weep.

  • Pastors Mark & Valeri Testerma

    Dear Pud,

    I have read the dialogue between yourself and Rudy and quickly came to the realization that it is the song that never ends. You are asking Rudy to explain that which only can be experienced.

    Jerry Lewis used to close out the Labor Day Muscular Dystrophy Telethon with these words: “One who knows, needs no explantion, but one who doesn’t, no explanation will suffice.”

    Several years ago a young man asked me to prove that God was real. I asked him “What would you accept as proof?” He had no further response! You see, that young man was not searching for God with his heart or he would have found Him. God said through the Prophet Jeremiah in chapter 29 verse 13 – “You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.”

    I am asking you to consider listening to a message that I ministered at my church recently. I believe you will find the answers that you are searching for. You can go to the following link to listen to that message:

    https://tgmi.podbean.com/e/daddys-gift-of-grace-pastor-mark-testerman/

    In closing, I want you to know that you are not a disappointment to God. He is passionately in love with you and there is nothing you can do to change that.

    Great Grace, Such Grace,

    Pastor Mark J Testerman
    triumphantgraceministries@yahoo.com

    • Rudy Schellekens

      Respectfully, I disagree with your statement that the existence of God cannot be explained, but only experienced. That would make the existence/non-existence of God totally subjective.
      Paul tells us that there is plenty of evidence for the existence of God. If it were up to ONLY our experience, who’s experience is right?
      The Mormon missionaries use this kind of reasoning when they suggest you ask God to let you know if the message about Smith is true or not. They even quote Scripture for that! Their “truth” about Smith is totally subjective. And if you have a different experience, i.e. feel that the message is NOT true, you are told you did not try hard enough.
      When Thomas expresses an healthy doubt about the resurrection, he asks for proof. He was given the proof, and was not told he could only “experience” it.

    • Jack Wellman

      Well said Pastor. I know that he/she is at least dispensing blessings, so I pray for him/her (Matt 5:10-12; 1 Pet 4:14). Thank you for your grace-filled words. I think this is how Jesus would respond to Pud.

  • Pastors Mark & Valeri Testerma

    Hello Rudy,

    Thank you for your response but this was actually directed more to Pud. Obviously Pud has a father fracture and this is what is driving Pud’s inner struggle. Pud is searching for truth but is not going to find it cognitively through a debate anymore than we can reason away a monster under our children’s bed through logic.

    My point was, reasoning can only take you so far. Explanation without Experience is an empty victory. As the resurrected Jesus stood in front of Thomas, Thomas doubted. Explanation was not enough for Thomas and Jesus knew that. This is why Jesus enouraged Thomas to experience His nail perferated hands and spear pierced side.

    I have found over the years that my personal testimony of coming to Jesus and how He has transformed my own life carries far greater impact than how God created the world. I have discovered that when Jesus is magnified then the things of this world will grown faintly in dim in the light of His glory and grace.

    God Bless you,

    Pastor Mark J Testerman

  • Hey Jack,

    Great read, definitely raise some interesting points. I’ve listened to Dr. Martin Lloyd Jones about marriage into Christ and how it puts to death the previous law. That we are to focus on our relationship as the bride of Christ. He got me questioning sin, what is it, are we able to do it? I’ve so far came to the conclusion that first and foremost, sin is more complex than most people admit.

    After reading the Thirty-Three Words for Sin in the New Testament on Bible.org, I have come to the conclusion that it’s again far more complex than we claim. There are different types of sin, one is sin in nature. This nature is sin that passes down generations from Adam. This is the sin that is referenced in 1 John 1:8-10. So here the reference is that if we say Adam did not sin and that we are not sinful in nature, then we make him a liar.

    The overriding theme of sin is that it’s a falling short of God’s path, and that the path we choose is both inferior and leads to destruction. I believe that sin within this context Christians are potentially exempt from. Salvation is assured, so a path of our destruction is not possible to follow through to the end. This is only true of those that actually trust in Jesus as Christ, not simply in practice of works or ritual.

    It seems to me that the issue of sin is complex, not simple. I therefore would expect the understanding from our perspective to be complex – but easy for God to see, judge and resolve. Would love to hear some more of your thoughts on the topic.

    Kind Regards

    • Jack Wellman

      I have not heard this reference in regards to Adam, ,and although I know Dr. Jones is rock-solid, I would ask the church to see how many have sinned since they’ve been saved, and of course, every hand was raised, but the Apostle John defines what sin is; it is the transgression of the law, and we all still sin, although Christians standing before God is secure, we still sin but we should be sinning, less. Thank you for your comment sir.

    • Alex Voon

      Context of below text is ; Salvation is Only assured, IF we walk in the light and DO the truth (obey and do the Word of God and Mosaic laws), only then are we cleansed from our sin, as He is in the light. But IF we walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: our sin is not cleansed and we will perish. To walk in the light is to follow Jesus and do all the Word of God and the law as Jesus did. Jesus calls to follow Him (not just merely belief but to do what He command).
      1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
      6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
      7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

      • Ulf Turkewitsch

        The Bible says that Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. Jesus said that the work he expected of people was to believe. From these and other scriptures I conclude that faith is ALL THAT IS REQUIRED OF US to be saved.
        You can’t have it both ways ; either we are saved completely and utterly by Jesus work on the cross, or we must work our way into heaven. Right?

        • Rudy Schellekens

          Wrong. Faith finds expression in the trust we place in God, coupled with the obedience we offer God. One without the other is worthless. Abraham TRUSTED God that He would fulfill His promise – which was predicate to Abraham packing his bags and hitting the road. No movement? No faith. No faith? No righteousness. It is a “package,” so to speak. Made even more clear that we, believers, too will be judged by our works… Salvation is multifaceted.

          • Ulf Turkewitsch

            We definitely are NOT saved by our works. There is a branch of Christianity that teaches that good works are NECESSARY for salvation. This is not Biblical at all. I’ll not enumerate all the places in the N.T. where we learn that only faith is necessary to be saved, but thats it, whether you like it or not!

          • Rudy Schellekens

            I strongly encourage you to look indeed at all the places where SALVATION and JUDGMENT are mentioned, rather than the places only where faith is mentioned.
            It gives you a much broader, and therefore a more complete BIBLICAL view, rather than the extreme narrow view that “all it takes is faith, forget about works…”

            Just a smidgeon, to whet your appetite… “What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.”

            Faith is EXPRESSED in deeds, not in words. Faith not practiced does not lead to salvation. Therefor, works indeed are a necessary expression of our faith.

            Now, were you to say that the doing of works does not earn me any brownie points with God, leading to “God owing me salvation,” I would wholeheartedly agree with you.

            I feel generous today, so here is taste 2, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”

            Note the purpose for our creation: Doing the good works God prepared in advance for us to do. You do not fulfill the purpose of your recreation in Christ, i.e. doing good works, you really think will tell you “Sure, I get it, you were confused about this works thing…?”

            Yes, salvation is by grace… among other things

  • Fr. David Jacobs

    I recently encountered someone who said “although Christians sin they are not sinners”. I have never heard this before. Can anyone explain what this means? thanks.

    • Rudy Schellekens

      Simple…
      In the two (extensive) baptism passages (Romans, Colossians) the “old” i.e. the sinner dies, is buried, and the “new” i.e. the child of God is raised into newness of life. The old no longer exists.
      Does a Christian sin from time to time? Yes! But he is no longer a “sinner” i.e. one who sins habitually, as a lifestyle (See 1 John 3 – KJV “cannot…” but that not a preferred translation).
      Some will quote 1 John 1 (He who says…), but the context shows it applies to people who CLAIM to walk in the light, but DO workness of darkness, so it is not a universal statement.

      It is like the statement in Roman 3 – ALL have sinned… None righteous… Both of these are taken as universal statements, but reading through the pages of the Old Testament already makes it obvious that yes, there WERE righteous people! Contextually, however, the passage refers to Jews (with the law, but lived as if without) and Gentiles (Without the law, but lived as with); BOTH needed Christ.

      • Fr. David Jacobs

        Thank you for your response. I understand your point that “the “old” i.e. the sinner dies, is buried, and the “new” i.e. the child
        of God is raised into newness of life. The old no longer exists.” I agree with you on this. However, I am still confused as to why a Christian who sins today is not considered a sinner. You defined the word sinner to mean someone who “sins habitually”. This is interesting because I have never met anyone Christian or not that only sins from time to time. I would say most Christians have a sin they commit habitually.

        • Rudy Schellekens

          As I read through the New Testament, there is a distinct difference between the child of God and the child of the devil – there is no middle ground. The term “Sinner” is used for those outside the family of God. Paul writes to the Corinthians about sinners – and says, “such WERE some of you…”

          But the 1 John 3 section is by far the clearest statement! “Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.”

          • Christiane Smith

            You speak of an ancient heresy:
            “No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.”

            please take a look at the early Christian heresy of the ‘lapsi’ . . . . you will see the similarity to your own statement and I hope you find clarification in your research

          • Rudy Schellekens

            Since John was not alive when your “lapsi” developed, I respectfully disagree with John addressing that topic.

          • Christiane Smith

            Your comment is confusing. Please clarify your meaning if your care to do so. I am not familiar with any particular Christian community of faith that believes that they are sinless or who do not sin or who ‘sin’ but it’s ‘okay’. I do not know of them or of their doctrines. So I am unable to understand you in the context regarding any known Christian group. Perhaps you might clarify this also. I do know of one case where a leader openly broke the Royal Law of Christ in his treatment of women, but he was removed from leadership after some of the depths of his misogyny was revealed. So: (?)

            My own view of sin is that God has given us each a moral conscience and He has given all mankind choice to choose between good and evil. That freedom of choice is commensurate with their dignity as persons made in the image of God. Hopefully people will respond to their moral consciences that guide them towards what is good and away from what is evil. But each person meets with God in their consciences and will answer to God for their own decisions. For those that turn away from God, God offers forgiveness upon repentance, yes.

            What is your own understanding of ‘sin’?

        • Jack Wellman

          I agree with Fr. Jacobs. You refer to 1st John, so Rudy, what do you think of 1 John 1:8, 10 which says, “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” Have you stopped sinning? I haven’t been able to and don’t think we will this side of the veil.

          • Rudy Schellekens

            As stated earlier, look at the context in 1 John 1 it deals with those who CLAIM to walk in the light, but do works of darkness.
            It would be a contradiction with the text in1 John 3 otherwise.
            But there is a difference in language. Children of God are those who “died to sin,” are “set free from sin.”
            There are many more descriptions.

          • Jack Wellman

            Do you still sin? Have you sinned after covnersion? There’s your answer. I am leaving the conversation and agreeing to disagree. …1 John chapter 1 is about those who do walk in the light.

          • Rudy Schellekens

            I’ll leave you with the full text of inspired Scripture, okay?

            1Jn 3:1 See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
            1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
            1Jn 3:3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
            1Jn 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
            1Jn 3:5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
            1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
            1Jn 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
            1Jn 3:8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
            1Jn 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
            1Jn 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

  • David Duchene

    ..what we are as saints and what we occasionally do (sin) are two different things – notice the Apostle John does not write if we say we ARE not sinners, we lie ..rather, if we HAVE not sin we lie. When we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and receive the Holy Spirit as a down payment for salvation we are transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the glorious Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ. We ARE not sinners any longer – we ARE saints who occasionally sin. …big difference.

  • tovlogos

    Amen, Jack — as Luther, it is salvivic to realize we are a work in progress and that no one has arrived, yet, just being on the
    Narrow Path is sufficient. Thus, your assessment, for example, of Pud, is correct — she is not in a “positionally” acceptable
    place. There is a difference in being a saved sinner and an unsaved sinner — such that the sinner sins,; so, fundamentally are the same
    which is a good reason for our compassion unto the lost. We are the same and it not our sinlessness that saves us, it’s our regret and subsequent humility
    in recognizing we are lost that makes all the difference in reckoning our destinies.

    • Rudy Schellekens

      IT IS an unbiblical picture you paint! “While we WERE sinners…” past tense. “Such WERE some of you…” past tense. We are NOT the same!
      By holding the idea that we are still to be considered sinners, you make a mockery of His death!
      In baptism, and only in baptism, we are “regenerated.” We are raised in “newness of life.” We have “laid off the old…” We have “put on the new…” We have moved from “darkness to light…” We have become “children of God…” rather than “children of the devil…” “The old self died…” The text is filled with “past” statements.

      Have you never been taught to read contextually? The passage in 1 John 1 deals contextually, anyway, with those who CLAIM to walk in the light, but DO the works of darkness. And then deny that their works of darkness indeed are sin.Those are the ones who “deceive themselves” and make God a liar.

      Later he writes, “4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s[b] seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.”

      Children of God are called “the righteous ones,” both in the Old and New Testament. A siner is the unrighteous one, both in the Old and New testament.

      • tovlogos

        Thanks, Rudy for your input — but there is no need to get this carried away.
        1 John 3: illustrated the what the results are for “practicing sin”, ; otherwise being a sinner is a “condition”,
        We don’t sin deliberately, however, we are still fallen in the “flesh”, and the flesh still has its own desires, cf, Romans 7:14-24.
        It terminology… The devil still tries to manipulate us and is very often, to some degree, successfully — only Jesus can claim otherwise.
        We are on the Narrow Road because we have received the Son of God and as a result we have the benefit of John 16:8,9, without which
        we wouldn’t stand a chance. Therefore, the only baptism/immersion that actually give us the engagement of John 16…is the immersion
        of the Holy Spirit, which He does upon receiving Christ as in Romans 10:9. The physical baptism is a throwback from the fundamental Mosaic era — in the New Testament it was designed to secure the Messiah’s launch point — Israel…then itt became appropriate to go forward to the inclusion of the Gentiles 1 Corinthians 1:17; Ephesians 3:5-9, should put that notion to rest.
        Yet, believers have gone “prodigal” and God receives them back upon repentance — He knows we can slip which is not the act
        a “commitment to sin”, it is a stumble…(Luke 17:1). The term “sinner” is a condition simply meaning we are still capable of stumbling in which case it would be “sin” even for an instant.– sins are not the theological point, the fact that
        we are in the flesh, in which even the Son of God experienced the pain of cursed flesh which stayed with Him until He accomplished His mission. He is the only soul wah was never a sinner. Yes, we were washed and our sins were imputed to Him, but that didn’t make us sinless. And our recovery doesn’t make us righteous — the only thing that makes us righteous is our commitment to the Son of God. Yet, we are “positionally” safe and assured. If a believer stumbles and has an affair, is he going to hell? Of course not though he repents earnestly, there may be ramifications for which he may be responsible, and which may be a serious burdon.
        Ok, that’s all I will say on this subject. (I spent quite a few years on Baptism so if you don’t understand the subject comprehensively we will not discuss it; this is not the forum for that discussion…) Study with John 6:63 in mind.

        • Rudy Schellekens

          One phrase, “”Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?”

          One passage, “Rom 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
          Rom 6:2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
          Rom 6:3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
          Rom 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
          Rom 6:5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.
          Rom 6:6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—
          Rom 6:7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
          Rom 6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
          Rom 6:9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.
          Rom 6:10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
          Rom 6:11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
          Rom 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
          Rom 6:13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.
          Rom 6:14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. “

          • tovlogos

            The fact that you used Romans 6 to make your case means you haven’t understood a word I have said — thus ends the conversation.
            Blessings.