Romney picks Paul Ryan

Romney picks Paul Ryan August 11, 2012

Mitt Romney has chosen Wisconsin congressman Paul Ryan to be his vice-presidential running-mate.  Ryan is known for his deficit-slashing budget proposal and his fiscal conservatism.

Does this help Romney?  Will it rally conservatives behind him or just alarm the general public worried about Social Security reform?

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  • Tom Hering

    Will it rally conservatives behind him or just alarm the general public worried about Social Security reform?

    Both, potentially. The Murdoch media was already pushing for Ryan. The Democrats were hoping like crazy he’d be the pick.

  • Tom Hering

    Will it rally conservatives behind him or just alarm the general public worried about Social Security reform?

    Both, potentially. The Murdoch media was already pushing for Ryan. The Democrats were hoping like crazy he’d be the pick.

  • Random Lutheran

    It simply doesn’t matter in the electoral scheme of things. If Romney can’t beat the incumbent based on the combination of the economy, religious liberty, personal liberty, social policy, SCOTUS appointments, and foreign policy, the choice of running mate won’t make any difference whatsoever.

  • Random Lutheran

    It simply doesn’t matter in the electoral scheme of things. If Romney can’t beat the incumbent based on the combination of the economy, religious liberty, personal liberty, social policy, SCOTUS appointments, and foreign policy, the choice of running mate won’t make any difference whatsoever.

  • Joe

    I’m not sure what it will do for the overall numbers — but it is a signal that Romeny wants to make this more than just an anti-Obama campaign. He is going to offer a contrasting vision. Love Ryan’s ideas or hate them, Ryan has put forward real ideas for reforming our budgeting process and our entitlement system. Even Obama called them serious proposals not that long ago.

  • Joe

    I’m not sure what it will do for the overall numbers — but it is a signal that Romeny wants to make this more than just an anti-Obama campaign. He is going to offer a contrasting vision. Love Ryan’s ideas or hate them, Ryan has put forward real ideas for reforming our budgeting process and our entitlement system. Even Obama called them serious proposals not that long ago.

  • sg

    I read the Wiki summary of Paul Ryan to see if I had missed anything of major importance about the man. Anyway, while reading I found some comments by Paul Krugman. At the end of the paragraph there was the statement, “dismantling Medicare as we know it,” which is politically unrealistic.

    Okay, assuming that it is indeed politically unrealistic, why is it unrealistic?

    Is it because the American public have carefully considered the cost and structure of Medicare and feel it is the most sustainable and efficient program?

    Is it because Americans believe they have an absolute right to health care when they are old?

    Do people not understand that it will literally be impossible to pay for Medicare as it is currently structured? Why don’t they know?

    Something else?

    Why is it that it is politically unrealistic?

    Why are we so in love with Medicare, medical treatments etc.?

    Plenty of the treatments don’t even extend life let alone improve quality, despite the expense.

  • sg

    I read the Wiki summary of Paul Ryan to see if I had missed anything of major importance about the man. Anyway, while reading I found some comments by Paul Krugman. At the end of the paragraph there was the statement, “dismantling Medicare as we know it,” which is politically unrealistic.

    Okay, assuming that it is indeed politically unrealistic, why is it unrealistic?

    Is it because the American public have carefully considered the cost and structure of Medicare and feel it is the most sustainable and efficient program?

    Is it because Americans believe they have an absolute right to health care when they are old?

    Do people not understand that it will literally be impossible to pay for Medicare as it is currently structured? Why don’t they know?

    Something else?

    Why is it that it is politically unrealistic?

    Why are we so in love with Medicare, medical treatments etc.?

    Plenty of the treatments don’t even extend life let alone improve quality, despite the expense.

  • Pastor Spomer

    Best scenario, (and the only good one) Obama wins the election and. Ryan runs in 2016 saying , “I told you so.”

  • Pastor Spomer

    Best scenario, (and the only good one) Obama wins the election and. Ryan runs in 2016 saying , “I told you so.”

  • Random Lutheran

    It’s politically unrealistic because the old folks in Florida and other battleground states don’t take kindly to the idea of their benefits being changed, and they are far more likely to vote than other demographic groups. The simple political rule is don’t torque off those who actually go to the polls.

  • Random Lutheran

    It’s politically unrealistic because the old folks in Florida and other battleground states don’t take kindly to the idea of their benefits being changed, and they are far more likely to vote than other demographic groups. The simple political rule is don’t torque off those who actually go to the polls.

  • Random Lutheran

    Pr Spomer: that’s still an unacceptable outcome, for one reason: SCOTUS. The court for the next 20+ years will be decided in this election, and while Romney is far from ideal, pretty much anyone he would nominate would be head-and-shoulders above any appointee by the incumbent.

  • Random Lutheran

    Pr Spomer: that’s still an unacceptable outcome, for one reason: SCOTUS. The court for the next 20+ years will be decided in this election, and while Romney is far from ideal, pretty much anyone he would nominate would be head-and-shoulders above any appointee by the incumbent.

  • Jonathan

    So… you lose moderates and independents and the state of Florida, and you gain …. those who were already reluctantly supporting you because your name is not Barack Obama. Well played, sir.

  • Jonathan

    So… you lose moderates and independents and the state of Florida, and you gain …. those who were already reluctantly supporting you because your name is not Barack Obama. Well played, sir.

  • DonS

    It’s a good, solid pick. I’m sure Obama’s minions will go on the attack and amplify the “scare seniors” theme that Democrats run every four years, faithfully, but Ryan’s substance will make it a lot harder for Obama to duck his horrible record. I’m looking forward to the Ryan–Biden debate 😉

  • DonS

    It’s a good, solid pick. I’m sure Obama’s minions will go on the attack and amplify the “scare seniors” theme that Democrats run every four years, faithfully, but Ryan’s substance will make it a lot harder for Obama to duck his horrible record. I’m looking forward to the Ryan–Biden debate 😉

  • Carl Vehse

    Great VP pick!! Now if the GOP could just find a good pick for the top slot.

    As it is, the GOP ticket looks similar to 2008. And we can expect the fifth-column media and other leftists to be checking into Ryan’s grade school records and any overdue library books, while still ignoring Barry’s record of lies, deceit, and treachery.

  • Carl Vehse

    Great VP pick!! Now if the GOP could just find a good pick for the top slot.

    As it is, the GOP ticket looks similar to 2008. And we can expect the fifth-column media and other leftists to be checking into Ryan’s grade school records and any overdue library books, while still ignoring Barry’s record of lies, deceit, and treachery.

  • sg

    Donald Trump should start a PAC that focuses on pressuring Obama regarding all of the documents he refuses to release. You know, those boring uninteresting things that contain nothing of interest, therefore may as well publish them just in the interest of transparency. It worked last time Trump did it.

  • sg

    Donald Trump should start a PAC that focuses on pressuring Obama regarding all of the documents he refuses to release. You know, those boring uninteresting things that contain nothing of interest, therefore may as well publish them just in the interest of transparency. It worked last time Trump did it.

  • sg

    If we think we are electing the SCOTUS as much as the President, we have very big problems. Given that the Senate has to approve SCOTUS appointments and the Senate favors smaller states, then the objectionable SCOTUS candidates should be easy to stop cold. Why aren’t they? Well, it just isn’t that expensive to buy a few senators who tip the balance of laws enacted to rule over about 300 million consumers. So, duh, those with vested interests put their money where they get the biggest return. If only senators were still elected by legislatures…

  • sg

    If we think we are electing the SCOTUS as much as the President, we have very big problems. Given that the Senate has to approve SCOTUS appointments and the Senate favors smaller states, then the objectionable SCOTUS candidates should be easy to stop cold. Why aren’t they? Well, it just isn’t that expensive to buy a few senators who tip the balance of laws enacted to rule over about 300 million consumers. So, duh, those with vested interests put their money where they get the biggest return. If only senators were still elected by legislatures…

  • JunkerGeorg

    Rand Paul would’ve been my first choice. But that of course would’ve never happened, given who Romney’s handlers are (e.g., Goldman Sachs). As for Paul Ryan, it seems like a very logical choice to placate the fiscal conservatives within the party tent, who are leary of Big Government expenditures, ala Romneycare, TAARP, and perpetual raisings of the debt-ceiling . Ryan certainly demonstrates intelligence on fiscal matters, and does show grit to take a stand for fiscal issues in a way that is admirable. For example, I did appreciate his contentions against Obamacare during the hearings a couple years ago, when he called it a “Fiscal Frankenstein.”

    Romney and Ryan will now have to make sure they counteract the misinformative fear-mongering that will surely come from the media regarding their ideas for reform of bankrupt programs like Social Security and Medicare. In general I think they also would need to present themselves not as resistors of change (ala, the reputation of the Republicans being the “Party of No!”), but as equally if not more “progressive” as Obama, yet just as ones who better changes than Obama’s. That’s a tough task.

    Yet as this point while I hope I’m wrong, I don’t think it matters who Romney picked as V.P., that is, outside of maybe Ron Paul (in order to win the libertarian/independent/disgruntled democrat votes), nor what campaign strategy he and Ryan choose to implement. They won’t have the ‘juice’ to get it done given the deprived state of most of the populace which goes style over substance. Or as Dr. Veith has said, who go for the most “likable” candidate. Indeed, we are in “Post-Modern Times”.

  • JunkerGeorg

    Rand Paul would’ve been my first choice. But that of course would’ve never happened, given who Romney’s handlers are (e.g., Goldman Sachs). As for Paul Ryan, it seems like a very logical choice to placate the fiscal conservatives within the party tent, who are leary of Big Government expenditures, ala Romneycare, TAARP, and perpetual raisings of the debt-ceiling . Ryan certainly demonstrates intelligence on fiscal matters, and does show grit to take a stand for fiscal issues in a way that is admirable. For example, I did appreciate his contentions against Obamacare during the hearings a couple years ago, when he called it a “Fiscal Frankenstein.”

    Romney and Ryan will now have to make sure they counteract the misinformative fear-mongering that will surely come from the media regarding their ideas for reform of bankrupt programs like Social Security and Medicare. In general I think they also would need to present themselves not as resistors of change (ala, the reputation of the Republicans being the “Party of No!”), but as equally if not more “progressive” as Obama, yet just as ones who better changes than Obama’s. That’s a tough task.

    Yet as this point while I hope I’m wrong, I don’t think it matters who Romney picked as V.P., that is, outside of maybe Ron Paul (in order to win the libertarian/independent/disgruntled democrat votes), nor what campaign strategy he and Ryan choose to implement. They won’t have the ‘juice’ to get it done given the deprived state of most of the populace which goes style over substance. Or as Dr. Veith has said, who go for the most “likable” candidate. Indeed, we are in “Post-Modern Times”.

  • reg

    Carl,
    “while still ignoring Barry’s record of lies, deceit, and treachery.” You’ve got the rhetoric down pat, now all you need to do is don the brown shirt and start marching in lockstep with your fellow Volk.

  • reg

    Carl,
    “while still ignoring Barry’s record of lies, deceit, and treachery.” You’ve got the rhetoric down pat, now all you need to do is don the brown shirt and start marching in lockstep with your fellow Volk.

  • Michael B.

    @Random Lutheran

    “It’s politically unrealistic because the old folks in Florida and other battleground states don’t take kindly to the idea of their benefits”

    Exactly. When people say they want to cut spending and entitlements, they mean other people’s entitlements.

  • Michael B.

    @Random Lutheran

    “It’s politically unrealistic because the old folks in Florida and other battleground states don’t take kindly to the idea of their benefits”

    Exactly. When people say they want to cut spending and entitlements, they mean other people’s entitlements.

  • sg

    lies, deceit, and treachery

    Gitmo comes instantly to mind.

    It was oh so important when Bush was president. The “first thing” President Obama did was “close” Gitmo. When was the last time you saw a war protest? It is not because people now love the wars.

    I admit this is what angers me most about the president. When he was elected, I hope he would at least end the wars. But no, that didn’t happen.

  • sg

    lies, deceit, and treachery

    Gitmo comes instantly to mind.

    It was oh so important when Bush was president. The “first thing” President Obama did was “close” Gitmo. When was the last time you saw a war protest? It is not because people now love the wars.

    I admit this is what angers me most about the president. When he was elected, I hope he would at least end the wars. But no, that didn’t happen.

  • Grace

    Paul Ryan doesn’t skip a beat, but leaves Obama in his usual
    um, well, hu …..

    Paul Ryan: Hiding Spending Doesn’t Reduce Spending

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPxMZ1WdINs

  • Grace

    Paul Ryan doesn’t skip a beat, but leaves Obama in his usual
    um, well, hu …..

    Paul Ryan: Hiding Spending Doesn’t Reduce Spending

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPxMZ1WdINs

  • fjsteve

    Michael B.

    “Exactly. When people say they want to cut spending and entitlements, they mean other people’s entitlements.”

    Especially pensioners and union members. The two groups who are sending California cities to bankruptcy left and right.

  • fjsteve

    Michael B.

    “Exactly. When people say they want to cut spending and entitlements, they mean other people’s entitlements.”

    Especially pensioners and union members. The two groups who are sending California cities to bankruptcy left and right.

  • Bryan

    True independents are about as rears unicorns. Every one leans one way or another, it just happens than some are not as openly committed to those leanings as others. There is nothing the GOP can do to improve there situation, although there’s plenty they can do to hurt themselves. Simple fact is this is an up or down on Obama. The real hope is that we tolerate Romney and elect Ryan in due course. 

  • Bryan

    True independents are about as rears unicorns. Every one leans one way or another, it just happens than some are not as openly committed to those leanings as others. There is nothing the GOP can do to improve there situation, although there’s plenty they can do to hurt themselves. Simple fact is this is an up or down on Obama. The real hope is that we tolerate Romney and elect Ryan in due course. 

  • Grace

    Bryan,

    Paul Ryan is brilliant, he speaks without missing a beat, he knows what the issue is, and addresses it with confidence!

  • Grace

    Bryan,

    Paul Ryan is brilliant, he speaks without missing a beat, he knows what the issue is, and addresses it with confidence!

  • Bryan

    And I don’t disagree. I don’t doubt Ryan. I doubt an American public that votes like this is a beauty contest. That or as mentioned above everyone will vote for whomever excludes reducing their pet entitlement. That being said Ryan was the right pick to make. 

  • Bryan

    And I don’t disagree. I don’t doubt Ryan. I doubt an American public that votes like this is a beauty contest. That or as mentioned above everyone will vote for whomever excludes reducing their pet entitlement. That being said Ryan was the right pick to make. 

  • Grace

    Bryan

    How do you define this as a “beauty contest” ?

    I don’t like Romney whatsoever, however he did choose the best person for a running mate.

  • Grace

    Bryan

    How do you define this as a “beauty contest” ?

    I don’t like Romney whatsoever, however he did choose the best person for a running mate.

  • Michael B.

    @sg@4

    I have to ask: I’m not sure how old you are, but I’m curious what your grandparents or parents (whichever are over 65) use for health insurance? Without government insurance, could they afford to go out and purchase health insurance on their own, or afford their own medical bills?

  • Michael B.

    @sg@4

    I have to ask: I’m not sure how old you are, but I’m curious what your grandparents or parents (whichever are over 65) use for health insurance? Without government insurance, could they afford to go out and purchase health insurance on their own, or afford their own medical bills?

  • sg

    Hey I found this cool picture.

    http://www.laborarts.org/collections/item.cfm?itemid=428

    It is a visual of productive people as the foundation of society. Key word: worker. Far too many entitlements go to non-workers. Far too many tax loop holes for those who are on the upper tiers of the hierarchy. The actual productive worker is paying high taxes and getting little for it. People are being taxed and promised stuff rather than just earning and spending for what they want. The picture labels capitalism as the problem, but really it is crony capitalism. It is those who can afford to have their interests protected by hiring lobbyists to make them winners vs. those who can’t.

  • sg

    Hey I found this cool picture.

    http://www.laborarts.org/collections/item.cfm?itemid=428

    It is a visual of productive people as the foundation of society. Key word: worker. Far too many entitlements go to non-workers. Far too many tax loop holes for those who are on the upper tiers of the hierarchy. The actual productive worker is paying high taxes and getting little for it. People are being taxed and promised stuff rather than just earning and spending for what they want. The picture labels capitalism as the problem, but really it is crony capitalism. It is those who can afford to have their interests protected by hiring lobbyists to make them winners vs. those who can’t.

  • sg

    @17

    great video

    hits the issue head on

  • sg

    @17

    great video

    hits the issue head on

  • Grace

    sg @4

    “Why are we so in love with Medicare, medical treatments etc.?”

    Ask most people over the age of 60 if their children will help care for them. The answer most often is “no I don’t think so” “our home is too small, we have our own life” – This doesn’t happen in Asian families or Hispanic, they take care of their elders until they die.

    As for “medical treatment” – medicare does pay for some, not all. That is the reason those who receive medicare have supplemental insurance to cover costs. Some procedures are not safe for the elderly, they aren’t able to undergo some surgeries as they age.

    Those who are on medicare now, will not lose it.

  • Grace

    sg @4

    “Why are we so in love with Medicare, medical treatments etc.?”

    Ask most people over the age of 60 if their children will help care for them. The answer most often is “no I don’t think so” “our home is too small, we have our own life” – This doesn’t happen in Asian families or Hispanic, they take care of their elders until they die.

    As for “medical treatment” – medicare does pay for some, not all. That is the reason those who receive medicare have supplemental insurance to cover costs. Some procedures are not safe for the elderly, they aren’t able to undergo some surgeries as they age.

    Those who are on medicare now, will not lose it.

  • Grace

    sg @24

    Very thought provoking. However the picture leaves out the men and women who are entrepreneurs, taken a big step, used their savings, borrowed on equity in their homes and started a business. When it developes into a success, those who work for the owners often times become envious, and want more. What they forget is, the money the owner borrowed from his home equity, his savings, needs to be paid back. All the employee sees is his success.

  • Grace

    sg @24

    Very thought provoking. However the picture leaves out the men and women who are entrepreneurs, taken a big step, used their savings, borrowed on equity in their homes and started a business. When it developes into a success, those who work for the owners often times become envious, and want more. What they forget is, the money the owner borrowed from his home equity, his savings, needs to be paid back. All the employee sees is his success.

  • Tom Hering

    Why are we so in love with Medicare, medical treatments etc.? (@ 4)

    In my case, mostly because I’m here today (after cancer and a heart attack) thanks to God’s provision through Medicare, Medicaid, charity, and advanced treatments. 🙂

  • Tom Hering

    Why are we so in love with Medicare, medical treatments etc.? (@ 4)

    In my case, mostly because I’m here today (after cancer and a heart attack) thanks to God’s provision through Medicare, Medicaid, charity, and advanced treatments. 🙂

  • Grace

    Tom,

    I’m glad that you were able to receive the care you needed. I was not aware that you had health problems.

    The problem we face today, is that some people take advantage of the system. Welfare, and healthcare for those who could work, and don’t/won’t is a big drain, it takes great amounts of money from health care.

    You might not agree with me, but those who are here illegally, have no right to take, what they haven’t earned. When all is added up, and then looked at objectively, there are many areas, IF CUT, would allow the citizens and those who are here legally to receive what they need.

    God bless you Tom, I will pray for you. Please let me know how things are going.

  • Grace

    Tom,

    I’m glad that you were able to receive the care you needed. I was not aware that you had health problems.

    The problem we face today, is that some people take advantage of the system. Welfare, and healthcare for those who could work, and don’t/won’t is a big drain, it takes great amounts of money from health care.

    You might not agree with me, but those who are here illegally, have no right to take, what they haven’t earned. When all is added up, and then looked at objectively, there are many areas, IF CUT, would allow the citizens and those who are here legally to receive what they need.

    God bless you Tom, I will pray for you. Please let me know how things are going.

  • sg

    “However the picture leaves out the men and women who are entrepreneurs, taken a big step, used their savings, borrowed on equity in their homes and started a business.”

    Okay, my gut reaction is that those people are productive workers, not able to lobby congress for special deals like a near monopoly in some area or region, nor to get loopholes defined so narrowly that theirs is the only firm that could fit the description.

  • sg

    “However the picture leaves out the men and women who are entrepreneurs, taken a big step, used their savings, borrowed on equity in their homes and started a business.”

    Okay, my gut reaction is that those people are productive workers, not able to lobby congress for special deals like a near monopoly in some area or region, nor to get loopholes defined so narrowly that theirs is the only firm that could fit the description.

  • Grace

    sg @30

    Not really, there are other situations as well. There is more to it than what you describe. It’s far more complex.

    As a business grows, the employer hires more employees, pays back his bank loans, and equipment loans, this all takes time. The employees don’t know that end if it, nor is it any of their business.

    Some businesses grow very well, in fact they become very successful. There are a very FEW employees who understand the risk their employer took. The majority don’t see it, nor do they care. What they see, is the vacation the owners took to Hawaii for 10 days. That angers them. They feel entitled to the same; ie: a big raise.

    In so many words sg, the vast amount of employees want the wealth spread evenly, even though they didn’t put a dime into the business or took any risk at all.

    This scenario happens all too often, it’s the norm.

    We see it all the time.

  • Grace

    sg @30

    Not really, there are other situations as well. There is more to it than what you describe. It’s far more complex.

    As a business grows, the employer hires more employees, pays back his bank loans, and equipment loans, this all takes time. The employees don’t know that end if it, nor is it any of their business.

    Some businesses grow very well, in fact they become very successful. There are a very FEW employees who understand the risk their employer took. The majority don’t see it, nor do they care. What they see, is the vacation the owners took to Hawaii for 10 days. That angers them. They feel entitled to the same; ie: a big raise.

    In so many words sg, the vast amount of employees want the wealth spread evenly, even though they didn’t put a dime into the business or took any risk at all.

    This scenario happens all too often, it’s the norm.

    We see it all the time.

  • sg

    @28

    That is great.

    I guess I am thinking of my aunt’s neighbor whose son farmed his property. His bills for his surgery cost more than his land is worth. Now if he had to sell his land to pay for the surgery, he probably would have just taken his chances rather than sell it out from under his son. He took great pride in passing the land on to his son. So, it seems in a case like that, a person will avail themselves of services that marginally increase life expectancy if they don’t have to pay for it themselves, but not if they have to pay for it. Recently a friend had her gall bladder taken out for like $15k paid for by insurance. I asked her how much she would be willing to pay for the surgery out of her own pocket to get relief from the discomfort and pain she was suffering. She said she would not have paid for it herself, she would have just changed her diet etc. I don’t know how that would have worked. Enough pain can be pretty motivating. Now, these are hypotheticals but they indicate that the price does matter. Same with knee replacements etc. I know so many people who have done it and about half seem to really benefit. I don’t know how well those that benefit correlate to those who would be willing to pay vs. those who got the surgery because their doctor told them they should and hey, Medicare will pay, so why not?

    Obviously heart attacks and car wreck injuries and cancer are not the same as gall bladder and knee surgeries, but price does matter when the patient has to pay. Lots of older people are far from destitute and the young are getting poorer and poorer. Over 10% of our total population in Texas is under 18 and on Medicaid.

  • sg

    @28

    That is great.

    I guess I am thinking of my aunt’s neighbor whose son farmed his property. His bills for his surgery cost more than his land is worth. Now if he had to sell his land to pay for the surgery, he probably would have just taken his chances rather than sell it out from under his son. He took great pride in passing the land on to his son. So, it seems in a case like that, a person will avail themselves of services that marginally increase life expectancy if they don’t have to pay for it themselves, but not if they have to pay for it. Recently a friend had her gall bladder taken out for like $15k paid for by insurance. I asked her how much she would be willing to pay for the surgery out of her own pocket to get relief from the discomfort and pain she was suffering. She said she would not have paid for it herself, she would have just changed her diet etc. I don’t know how that would have worked. Enough pain can be pretty motivating. Now, these are hypotheticals but they indicate that the price does matter. Same with knee replacements etc. I know so many people who have done it and about half seem to really benefit. I don’t know how well those that benefit correlate to those who would be willing to pay vs. those who got the surgery because their doctor told them they should and hey, Medicare will pay, so why not?

    Obviously heart attacks and car wreck injuries and cancer are not the same as gall bladder and knee surgeries, but price does matter when the patient has to pay. Lots of older people are far from destitute and the young are getting poorer and poorer. Over 10% of our total population in Texas is under 18 and on Medicaid.

  • Tom Hering

    Thanks Grace, but I’m doing fine these days. You know, we might want to think about what things would look like if Medicare wasn’t around to pump about $600 billion into America’s health care system each year. Would we have as many clinics and hospitals (especially in rural areas)? Would the ones that remain be able to offer all the same services? Would they have to increase fees dramatically if privately-insured patients were their only patients? Please don’t tell me that taking $600 billion, or even just $100 billion, out of the system wouldn’t affect everyone’s health care. Yeah, there’s terrible fraud and waste. Much too much. But some degree of fraud and waste just might be worth putting up with.

  • Tom Hering

    Thanks Grace, but I’m doing fine these days. You know, we might want to think about what things would look like if Medicare wasn’t around to pump about $600 billion into America’s health care system each year. Would we have as many clinics and hospitals (especially in rural areas)? Would the ones that remain be able to offer all the same services? Would they have to increase fees dramatically if privately-insured patients were their only patients? Please don’t tell me that taking $600 billion, or even just $100 billion, out of the system wouldn’t affect everyone’s health care. Yeah, there’s terrible fraud and waste. Much too much. But some degree of fraud and waste just might be worth putting up with.

  • sg

    if Medicare wasn’t around to pump about $600 billion into America’s health care system each year. Would we have as many clinics and hospitals (especially in rural areas)? Would the ones that remain be able to offer all the same services? Would they have to increase fees dramatically if privately-insured patients were their only patients? Please don’t tell me that taking $600 billion, or even just $100 billion, out of the system wouldn’t affect everyone’s health care.

    Yeah, this is the heart of the issue.

    $38,000,000,000,000 in unfunded liability.

    We have promised that much in benefits and we have no way to fund it. Funded as a pyramid scheme, it would require a 300% increase in workers to pay benefits for retirees. The thing is we can’t employ the people we have now. Labor participation is about 60%. Notice that the picture was a pyramid. We need a new economic model. Ours was drafted in the 30’s (?). We can’t have an infinitely expanding economy.

  • sg

    if Medicare wasn’t around to pump about $600 billion into America’s health care system each year. Would we have as many clinics and hospitals (especially in rural areas)? Would the ones that remain be able to offer all the same services? Would they have to increase fees dramatically if privately-insured patients were their only patients? Please don’t tell me that taking $600 billion, or even just $100 billion, out of the system wouldn’t affect everyone’s health care.

    Yeah, this is the heart of the issue.

    $38,000,000,000,000 in unfunded liability.

    We have promised that much in benefits and we have no way to fund it. Funded as a pyramid scheme, it would require a 300% increase in workers to pay benefits for retirees. The thing is we can’t employ the people we have now. Labor participation is about 60%. Notice that the picture was a pyramid. We need a new economic model. Ours was drafted in the 30’s (?). We can’t have an infinitely expanding economy.

  • Grace

    Tom,

    I believe STRONGLY in Medicare, every person who reaches that age, should be able to obtain health care.

    If this country would trim off health care for those who are illegal, it would take a huge amount of money, and put it directly into health care (medicare) that is needed for those who are citizens or legal, and have worked. Medicade is just as important for those who are disabled, of course they must prove they don’t have the funds to cover such expenses.

    Those who are healthy need to work, putting forth effort to pay for health insurance, even if it’s catastrophic insurance.

  • Grace

    Tom,

    I believe STRONGLY in Medicare, every person who reaches that age, should be able to obtain health care.

    If this country would trim off health care for those who are illegal, it would take a huge amount of money, and put it directly into health care (medicare) that is needed for those who are citizens or legal, and have worked. Medicade is just as important for those who are disabled, of course they must prove they don’t have the funds to cover such expenses.

    Those who are healthy need to work, putting forth effort to pay for health insurance, even if it’s catastrophic insurance.

  • Bryan

    Grace,
    I am not sure I understand what direction this conversation is going. I said I agree with you about Ryan. I made the comment about a beauty contest because anyone who has not made up their mind by this point has not been thinking about the issues. In other words anyone still “independent” at this point can’t see how good a pick Ryan is, and will probably vote based on who has the funniest commercials. 

  • Bryan

    Grace,
    I am not sure I understand what direction this conversation is going. I said I agree with you about Ryan. I made the comment about a beauty contest because anyone who has not made up their mind by this point has not been thinking about the issues. In other words anyone still “independent” at this point can’t see how good a pick Ryan is, and will probably vote based on who has the funniest commercials. 

  • Grace

    sg,

    I don’t know how many people you’ve observed with knees that hurt so bad they can hardly walk, and even if they don’t walk, the pain is terrible. That’s why knee replacement is such a wonderful thing.

    Pain is a terrible thing, it doesn’t go away, people cannot even sleep, nor can they walk well, if at all. Without surgery, they will need to be cared for, they have no mobility.

    I go back to the same thing – illegal aliens have put a terrible strain on this economy. I’m not saying it would be perfect without them, but it would certainly solve a lot of problems in education and health costs.

  • Grace

    sg,

    I don’t know how many people you’ve observed with knees that hurt so bad they can hardly walk, and even if they don’t walk, the pain is terrible. That’s why knee replacement is such a wonderful thing.

    Pain is a terrible thing, it doesn’t go away, people cannot even sleep, nor can they walk well, if at all. Without surgery, they will need to be cared for, they have no mobility.

    I go back to the same thing – illegal aliens have put a terrible strain on this economy. I’m not saying it would be perfect without them, but it would certainly solve a lot of problems in education and health costs.

  • Grace

    Bryan @36

    “In other words anyone still “independent” at this point can’t see how good a pick Ryan is, and will probably vote based on who has the funniest commercials.”

    There will always be those who don’t think, who are only visual. SAD!

  • Grace

    Bryan @36

    “In other words anyone still “independent” at this point can’t see how good a pick Ryan is, and will probably vote based on who has the funniest commercials.”

    There will always be those who don’t think, who are only visual. SAD!

  • Mary

    At present Ryan’s plan will not impact any one 55 and older. That is not to say that will be the final plan. However, the Dems will most certainly be saying (might be already I haven’t been able to catch the news) that Ryan wants to kick poor granny off of Medicare. Throw the old people under the bus.
    My four children ages 25-38 all believe that there will no longer be any money in either Medicare or Social Security when they are old enough to collect. I think their generation- millenialists and gen xers are much more realistic about the condition of the economy and what will need to be done. We have had it so good for so long (boomers) that we can’t see the writing on the wall. Surely it will get better, it just has to, because I want it to. Reminds me of Veruca Salt in Willy Wonka “I want it now Daddy”!

  • Mary

    At present Ryan’s plan will not impact any one 55 and older. That is not to say that will be the final plan. However, the Dems will most certainly be saying (might be already I haven’t been able to catch the news) that Ryan wants to kick poor granny off of Medicare. Throw the old people under the bus.
    My four children ages 25-38 all believe that there will no longer be any money in either Medicare or Social Security when they are old enough to collect. I think their generation- millenialists and gen xers are much more realistic about the condition of the economy and what will need to be done. We have had it so good for so long (boomers) that we can’t see the writing on the wall. Surely it will get better, it just has to, because I want it to. Reminds me of Veruca Salt in Willy Wonka “I want it now Daddy”!

  • Grace

    Mary 39

    Much of what you state is true.

    Here are some of my thoughts:

    All too many in this country have chosen to spend their money on NON-ESSENTIALS, that means, things which are too expensive, that could have been purchased for less, perhaps not being the most popular, but adequate.

    Cars, TV’s, homes, clothes, education and many other products. Add to that, dining in restaurants that are above their budget (if they ever had one) vacations, trips to Disneyland, and other amusement parks. People visit that park, spending about 120.00 per person for tickets and food per day. Then notice that their kids need new shoes, perhaps dental work, .. maybe health insurance as well?

    People need to take care of their families, that means everyone pitching in when their elders are older, needing assistance. This idea that one can have an isolated life, spending their resources only, on their own desires needs to be re-thought.

  • Grace

    Mary 39

    Much of what you state is true.

    Here are some of my thoughts:

    All too many in this country have chosen to spend their money on NON-ESSENTIALS, that means, things which are too expensive, that could have been purchased for less, perhaps not being the most popular, but adequate.

    Cars, TV’s, homes, clothes, education and many other products. Add to that, dining in restaurants that are above their budget (if they ever had one) vacations, trips to Disneyland, and other amusement parks. People visit that park, spending about 120.00 per person for tickets and food per day. Then notice that their kids need new shoes, perhaps dental work, .. maybe health insurance as well?

    People need to take care of their families, that means everyone pitching in when their elders are older, needing assistance. This idea that one can have an isolated life, spending their resources only, on their own desires needs to be re-thought.

  • sg

    I don’t know how many people you’ve observed with knees that hurt so bad they can hardly walk, and even if they don’t walk, the pain is terrible. That’s why knee replacement is such a wonderful thing.

    I have known maybe 10-12 who have had it. Some thought it was great. Others didn’t. I didn’t ask all of them if they would have been willing to pay for it themselves, but the few I did ask pretty much said no. Those are just anecdotes. Still we can’t know what the fair market value of the surgery is if those who get it don’t pay for it.

  • sg

    I don’t know how many people you’ve observed with knees that hurt so bad they can hardly walk, and even if they don’t walk, the pain is terrible. That’s why knee replacement is such a wonderful thing.

    I have known maybe 10-12 who have had it. Some thought it was great. Others didn’t. I didn’t ask all of them if they would have been willing to pay for it themselves, but the few I did ask pretty much said no. Those are just anecdotes. Still we can’t know what the fair market value of the surgery is if those who get it don’t pay for it.

  • sg

    All too many in this country have chosen to spend their money on NON-ESSENTIALS, that means, things which are too expensive, that could have been purchased for less, perhaps not being the most popular, but adequate.

    How much of this is learned behavior? If you are told that you don’t need to save because you are going to get Social Security and Medicare, then you are not going to save much. If you know you aren’t going to see any money ever that you don’t earn, you are going to save more, in general.

    I believe STRONGLY in Medicare, every person who reaches that age, should be able to obtain health care.”

    Sounds great. Unfortunately it is estimated it will cost $38 trillion more than we can come up with. Anyway that is what Ryan said. Others say about the same thing. So, how are we going to pay for it?

    My guess is that we aren’t going to pay for it. Health care will be rationed and the media won’t report it. Students will probably have to agree to the rationing standards in order to get into or loans for medical school. They will probably have some swell sounding euphemisms for the rationing standards that makes them sound like they are best practices and best for the patients a la George Orwell.

  • sg

    All too many in this country have chosen to spend their money on NON-ESSENTIALS, that means, things which are too expensive, that could have been purchased for less, perhaps not being the most popular, but adequate.

    How much of this is learned behavior? If you are told that you don’t need to save because you are going to get Social Security and Medicare, then you are not going to save much. If you know you aren’t going to see any money ever that you don’t earn, you are going to save more, in general.

    I believe STRONGLY in Medicare, every person who reaches that age, should be able to obtain health care.”

    Sounds great. Unfortunately it is estimated it will cost $38 trillion more than we can come up with. Anyway that is what Ryan said. Others say about the same thing. So, how are we going to pay for it?

    My guess is that we aren’t going to pay for it. Health care will be rationed and the media won’t report it. Students will probably have to agree to the rationing standards in order to get into or loans for medical school. They will probably have some swell sounding euphemisms for the rationing standards that makes them sound like they are best practices and best for the patients a la George Orwell.

  • rlewer

    Why are people believing the lies that Ryan and the Republicans would keep old people from having health insurance? The Dems have been claiming that every four years.

    If there are no changes no one will have Medicare.

    The Democrats did not submit a budget. Where they afraid to? Obama’s budget proposal brought about bipartisanship. The Senate voted it down unanimously

  • rlewer

    Why are people believing the lies that Ryan and the Republicans would keep old people from having health insurance? The Dems have been claiming that every four years.

    If there are no changes no one will have Medicare.

    The Democrats did not submit a budget. Where they afraid to? Obama’s budget proposal brought about bipartisanship. The Senate voted it down unanimously

  • reg

    Newt Gingrich called Ryan’s plan “ right-wing social engineering,” If it was too radical for the Newtster what more needs to be said. Ryan wants to balance the budget with no new revenues and no cuts to the military budget. You do the math as to what needs to be cut to achieve this-pretty much all safety net and other social programs. Not sure this was Mitt’s smartest move. Not sure this will play well with voters. He should have gone with Rubio or one of the white-bread twins (Portman/Pawlenty).

  • reg

    Newt Gingrich called Ryan’s plan “ right-wing social engineering,” If it was too radical for the Newtster what more needs to be said. Ryan wants to balance the budget with no new revenues and no cuts to the military budget. You do the math as to what needs to be cut to achieve this-pretty much all safety net and other social programs. Not sure this was Mitt’s smartest move. Not sure this will play well with voters. He should have gone with Rubio or one of the white-bread twins (Portman/Pawlenty).

  • Grace

    reg @44

    “Ryan wants to balance the budget with no new revenues and no cuts to the military budget.”

    One of the worst things this country could do, would be to cut the military budget. We need to stand strong. Strength doesn’t come by drawing back, as though everyone on this planet is going to play fair. Obama of course would cut the budget back, leaving the U.S. in a vulnerable condition if we were attacked.

    One of the last things this country needs is a weakend military. Remember I said “one” –

  • Grace

    reg @44

    “Ryan wants to balance the budget with no new revenues and no cuts to the military budget.”

    One of the worst things this country could do, would be to cut the military budget. We need to stand strong. Strength doesn’t come by drawing back, as though everyone on this planet is going to play fair. Obama of course would cut the budget back, leaving the U.S. in a vulnerable condition if we were attacked.

    One of the last things this country needs is a weakend military. Remember I said “one” –

  • Jon

    Paul Ryan is one of the few politicians with the courage to challenge the country to an honest discussion about the propriety of our current government’s practice of piling up huge debts for current benefits that put a unfair and crushing burden on our children and grandchilren. He is simply calling us back to a policy that George Washington, our first president, advocacted when warned that such debts “ungenerously throw upon posterity the burden which we ourselves ought to bear.” (Washington’s Farewell Address, 1796) Hopefully the country will engage on this issue.

  • Jon

    Paul Ryan is one of the few politicians with the courage to challenge the country to an honest discussion about the propriety of our current government’s practice of piling up huge debts for current benefits that put a unfair and crushing burden on our children and grandchilren. He is simply calling us back to a policy that George Washington, our first president, advocacted when warned that such debts “ungenerously throw upon posterity the burden which we ourselves ought to bear.” (Washington’s Farewell Address, 1796) Hopefully the country will engage on this issue.

  • Gary

    There’s finally a candidate in this race that won’t be a wasted vote.

    Paul Ryan believes that politicians should do things other than win elections.

    Perhaps now the election will be about real issues, and not about the most recent gaffe, old tax returns, etc.

    Paul Ryan believes in the idea of America and doesn’t want to change it–he wants to give it a future.

  • Gary

    There’s finally a candidate in this race that won’t be a wasted vote.

    Paul Ryan believes that politicians should do things other than win elections.

    Perhaps now the election will be about real issues, and not about the most recent gaffe, old tax returns, etc.

    Paul Ryan believes in the idea of America and doesn’t want to change it–he wants to give it a future.

  • Gary

    Also, Paul Ryan has previously gone toe-to-toe with both Biden and Obama, and left them looking like fools.

    Paul Ryan understands how to use social media and technology, and he uses it to get real issues and real stances out there.

  • Gary

    Also, Paul Ryan has previously gone toe-to-toe with both Biden and Obama, and left them looking like fools.

    Paul Ryan understands how to use social media and technology, and he uses it to get real issues and real stances out there.

  • Grace

    The most important point is, Paul Ryan is the choice, he’s the man. The one with a forward approach to looking at what has transpired here in the U.S., imputing that information into action, that will, if the GOP wins, taking what he has learned, using it to the best advantage, to not only protect this country, but to help put it back into a financial position to stablize our economy.

    Let none of us forget the most important fact; God ALMIGHTY knows the situations we face. HE and HE alone is in charge, if WE stand clear, and let HIM lead this country, to whom HE gave to our ancestors, great, great, great grandparents and parents who came here to develop freedom, a freedom we enjoy, and take for granted, one which includes freedom of religion and freedom of speech to name two.

    If this country can once again depend upon our LORD and Savior, giving HIM all the Glory, waiting to see what HE will do, we will never go wrong.

    God have mercy on us, a nation who has strayed, but knows we are in grave trouble.

  • Grace

    The most important point is, Paul Ryan is the choice, he’s the man. The one with a forward approach to looking at what has transpired here in the U.S., imputing that information into action, that will, if the GOP wins, taking what he has learned, using it to the best advantage, to not only protect this country, but to help put it back into a financial position to stablize our economy.

    Let none of us forget the most important fact; God ALMIGHTY knows the situations we face. HE and HE alone is in charge, if WE stand clear, and let HIM lead this country, to whom HE gave to our ancestors, great, great, great grandparents and parents who came here to develop freedom, a freedom we enjoy, and take for granted, one which includes freedom of religion and freedom of speech to name two.

    If this country can once again depend upon our LORD and Savior, giving HIM all the Glory, waiting to see what HE will do, we will never go wrong.

    God have mercy on us, a nation who has strayed, but knows we are in grave trouble.

  • larry

    What is most interesting to watch is both lib’s and cons basically seeking this messianic king, we call a president, to lead us into take your pick utopia, shangri la, the elysian fields, the shining city on the hill, etc. with an appeal “we will try harder NOW
    Lord and “give you” the glory”…as if.

    Vote as wisely as one can when the time comes and don’t wring your hands about it, the church, even when the country fails will still be doing what it has always been doing…administering Word and Sacrament. Far too much wind is given to these delusions we call leaders and politicians…right, left or independent.

  • larry

    What is most interesting to watch is both lib’s and cons basically seeking this messianic king, we call a president, to lead us into take your pick utopia, shangri la, the elysian fields, the shining city on the hill, etc. with an appeal “we will try harder NOW
    Lord and “give you” the glory”…as if.

    Vote as wisely as one can when the time comes and don’t wring your hands about it, the church, even when the country fails will still be doing what it has always been doing…administering Word and Sacrament. Far too much wind is given to these delusions we call leaders and politicians…right, left or independent.

  • Grace

    larry @ 50

    “What is most interesting to watch is both lib’s and cons basically seeking this messianic king, we call a president”

    larry, I don’t hear, nor do I see anyone looking upon a mere man as a “messianic king” I see no reason to dramatize!

    “even when the country fails will still be doing what it has always been doing…administering Word and Sacrament.”.

    The Gospel of Jesus Christ will continue to be preached no matter what happens.

  • Grace

    larry @ 50

    “What is most interesting to watch is both lib’s and cons basically seeking this messianic king, we call a president”

    larry, I don’t hear, nor do I see anyone looking upon a mere man as a “messianic king” I see no reason to dramatize!

    “even when the country fails will still be doing what it has always been doing…administering Word and Sacrament.”.

    The Gospel of Jesus Christ will continue to be preached no matter what happens.

  • Cincinnatus

    Guys, listen up. Guys? Hey, guys? I feel like we’re forgetting two very important facts:

    1) Ryan is the candidate for Vice-President. You know, the VP? The lame-duck, impotent office? The office with no meaningful authority? You know, the Vice President whose opinions are irrelevant and whose decisions mean nothing because none are actually made? The office that, in a campaign, serves only as window-dressing to pander to a certain neglected demographic (in this case, fiscal conservatives) and, after a campaign, serves as a placeholder for the President at funerals, fundraising events, etc.? The empty suit will still be making the decisions, guys.

    2) Who cares about Ryan’s budget plan? It will never, ever be passed. No Congress will touch it. No Congress is willing to touch the third rail in American politics–nay, grab it with both hands. Oh, and refer back to point numeral 1: Ryan is the VP candidate, not the President. He can do nothing except preach about the benefits of his “plan” if elected. Ryan’s proposal is nothing more than rhetorical talking point: Democrats will demagogue old folks about how Romney/Ryan want them to die in the streets without medical care; Republicans will use it to “prove” that they are serious about cutting spending, etc. Nothing will happen after the election. Medicare isn’t going anywhere until it catastrophically implodes in a couple of decades–as it certainly will since no one in contemporary American politics actually has the necessary combination of power and willingness to do anything about it.

    Don’t get me wrong: Ryan was a fairly strong pick for Romney, electorally speaking. But I think we’re analyzing the choice improperly. In short, you’re being played. If you think the choice of Ryan means that Romney is magically going to transform into some kind of fiscally conservative savior–well, I’ll enjoy your tears come 2016 if he wins this fall.

  • Cincinnatus

    Guys, listen up. Guys? Hey, guys? I feel like we’re forgetting two very important facts:

    1) Ryan is the candidate for Vice-President. You know, the VP? The lame-duck, impotent office? The office with no meaningful authority? You know, the Vice President whose opinions are irrelevant and whose decisions mean nothing because none are actually made? The office that, in a campaign, serves only as window-dressing to pander to a certain neglected demographic (in this case, fiscal conservatives) and, after a campaign, serves as a placeholder for the President at funerals, fundraising events, etc.? The empty suit will still be making the decisions, guys.

    2) Who cares about Ryan’s budget plan? It will never, ever be passed. No Congress will touch it. No Congress is willing to touch the third rail in American politics–nay, grab it with both hands. Oh, and refer back to point numeral 1: Ryan is the VP candidate, not the President. He can do nothing except preach about the benefits of his “plan” if elected. Ryan’s proposal is nothing more than rhetorical talking point: Democrats will demagogue old folks about how Romney/Ryan want them to die in the streets without medical care; Republicans will use it to “prove” that they are serious about cutting spending, etc. Nothing will happen after the election. Medicare isn’t going anywhere until it catastrophically implodes in a couple of decades–as it certainly will since no one in contemporary American politics actually has the necessary combination of power and willingness to do anything about it.

    Don’t get me wrong: Ryan was a fairly strong pick for Romney, electorally speaking. But I think we’re analyzing the choice improperly. In short, you’re being played. If you think the choice of Ryan means that Romney is magically going to transform into some kind of fiscally conservative savior–well, I’ll enjoy your tears come 2016 if he wins this fall.

  • SAL

    No one my age will get Medicare as it currently exists. Medicare simply can’t be funded with any level of taxation once all the Boomers are on it. Too many Boomers, too few taxpayers.

    So we either cut Medicare to save it, or we lose it when we go bankrupt and the World Bank forces the same draconian cuts on us that it has put on other fiscally irresponsible nations.

    I’m assuming I’ll get no Social Security or Medicare. I’m simply go to pay for the Boomers fun before they bankrupt the nation with their lavish government welfare and benefits.

  • SAL

    No one my age will get Medicare as it currently exists. Medicare simply can’t be funded with any level of taxation once all the Boomers are on it. Too many Boomers, too few taxpayers.

    So we either cut Medicare to save it, or we lose it when we go bankrupt and the World Bank forces the same draconian cuts on us that it has put on other fiscally irresponsible nations.

    I’m assuming I’ll get no Social Security or Medicare. I’m simply go to pay for the Boomers fun before they bankrupt the nation with their lavish government welfare and benefits.

  • Grace

    Sal,

    “I’m assuming I’ll get no Social Security or Medicare. I’m simply go to pay for the Boomers fun before they bankrupt the nation with their lavish government welfare and benefits.”

    You might check out the vast amount of elders who are struggling, after working hard all their lives to give their kids an education, help them buy homes, babysit their kids, etc. yep, we should all stay spoiled and self centered!

    You’re forgetting that our parents and grandparents saved, and then saved and saved more. When they became ill, who took care of them for the most part? – I’ll answer that for you, they were put in nursing homes, while their children put their “rainy day” funds in banks and then when they were gone, spent it on themselves. I’ve watched this happen all to often.

    Those who take care of their elders are Asians and Hispanics for the MOST PART. I’ve watched that scenario all too often as well.

    Save your money, just as our parents and grandparents did, then you won’t have to wail at there not being funds to pay for your elder years. Since our parents did their best, to save their money, it’s obvious that the ‘baby boomers’ have squandered, all too often what they have.

    Don’t join the growing number of “baby boomers” who bewail their situation. Who else is going to take care of their parents, if it wasn’t for Medicare and Social Security?

    Have you offered the elders in your family a place to live, when they no longer can afford, or are physically unable to take care of themselves?

    If they didn’t have Medicare or Social Security would you take them in? Or would you expect them to live in poverty, which many do already.

  • Grace

    Sal,

    “I’m assuming I’ll get no Social Security or Medicare. I’m simply go to pay for the Boomers fun before they bankrupt the nation with their lavish government welfare and benefits.”

    You might check out the vast amount of elders who are struggling, after working hard all their lives to give their kids an education, help them buy homes, babysit their kids, etc. yep, we should all stay spoiled and self centered!

    You’re forgetting that our parents and grandparents saved, and then saved and saved more. When they became ill, who took care of them for the most part? – I’ll answer that for you, they were put in nursing homes, while their children put their “rainy day” funds in banks and then when they were gone, spent it on themselves. I’ve watched this happen all to often.

    Those who take care of their elders are Asians and Hispanics for the MOST PART. I’ve watched that scenario all too often as well.

    Save your money, just as our parents and grandparents did, then you won’t have to wail at there not being funds to pay for your elder years. Since our parents did their best, to save their money, it’s obvious that the ‘baby boomers’ have squandered, all too often what they have.

    Don’t join the growing number of “baby boomers” who bewail their situation. Who else is going to take care of their parents, if it wasn’t for Medicare and Social Security?

    Have you offered the elders in your family a place to live, when they no longer can afford, or are physically unable to take care of themselves?

    If they didn’t have Medicare or Social Security would you take them in? Or would you expect them to live in poverty, which many do already.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @ 52

    Things don’t stay the same. You can drop the “empty suit” routine.

    Vice President Dick Cheney was certainly involved. He is one of the most billiant Vice Presidents we have ever had.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @ 52

    Things don’t stay the same. You can drop the “empty suit” routine.

    Vice President Dick Cheney was certainly involved. He is one of the most billiant Vice Presidents we have ever had.

  • Cincinnatus

    I see Grace is in top form today, missing the point in fine fashion!

    Grace, SAL’s entire point (and part of mine) is that, Social Security and Medicare are great–until they implode in a catastrophe for which “bankruptcy” is too mild a term. Unless something drastic is done, Medicare and Social Security won’t be here when I retire. And no one has the political will to undertake the reforms necessary, so I’m willing to bet that they won’t be here–without qualification.

    You also missed my other point, which is that Romney is the empty suit. Adding Ryan to his campaign doesn’t suddenly make him a substantive candidate. It presents the illusion that he’s a substantive candidate.

  • Cincinnatus

    I see Grace is in top form today, missing the point in fine fashion!

    Grace, SAL’s entire point (and part of mine) is that, Social Security and Medicare are great–until they implode in a catastrophe for which “bankruptcy” is too mild a term. Unless something drastic is done, Medicare and Social Security won’t be here when I retire. And no one has the political will to undertake the reforms necessary, so I’m willing to bet that they won’t be here–without qualification.

    You also missed my other point, which is that Romney is the empty suit. Adding Ryan to his campaign doesn’t suddenly make him a substantive candidate. It presents the illusion that he’s a substantive candidate.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @ 56

    I have not missed a thing. Read my post @ 54 over again, especially paragraph 5. The boomers and all the rest of us need to save our money. Stop spending it on things you don’t need. Our parents saved, we can do the same.

    Social Security will never pay for a decent place to live, food, gas, electric, phone, etc. Depending on it, even if you were an elder wouldn’t give you the funds you need.

    Our kids need to work, maybe before they go to college, attending a community college for two years. Instead of applying for every loan they can find and running up their debt, before they ever look for a position after college. The free ride is over, most young people are just finding that out. They cannot find positions after attending college. Have you ever given any thought as to why that is?

    SPOILED. Who cares about our elders anymore? Again I ask, have you or anyone else offered to take any of yours into your home to live and be cared for? Maybe you need to be an example to your children, before it’s to late!

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @ 56

    I have not missed a thing. Read my post @ 54 over again, especially paragraph 5. The boomers and all the rest of us need to save our money. Stop spending it on things you don’t need. Our parents saved, we can do the same.

    Social Security will never pay for a decent place to live, food, gas, electric, phone, etc. Depending on it, even if you were an elder wouldn’t give you the funds you need.

    Our kids need to work, maybe before they go to college, attending a community college for two years. Instead of applying for every loan they can find and running up their debt, before they ever look for a position after college. The free ride is over, most young people are just finding that out. They cannot find positions after attending college. Have you ever given any thought as to why that is?

    SPOILED. Who cares about our elders anymore? Again I ask, have you or anyone else offered to take any of yours into your home to live and be cared for? Maybe you need to be an example to your children, before it’s to late!

  • Cincinnatus

    Grace@37:

    People should save for their own retirements, etc., etc. Sure, I agree.

    But do you even understand the problem? Social Security and Medicare are going to implode without structural, political reforms. Period. Even if “Baby Boomers” and “our parents” and our kids” decide to start saving money, going to community college, letting elders stay in their homes, and following all the other irrelevant advice you provide, Medicare and Social Security will still implode.

    And neither Romney nor Ryan will do anything to stop it.

  • Cincinnatus

    Grace@37:

    People should save for their own retirements, etc., etc. Sure, I agree.

    But do you even understand the problem? Social Security and Medicare are going to implode without structural, political reforms. Period. Even if “Baby Boomers” and “our parents” and our kids” decide to start saving money, going to community college, letting elders stay in their homes, and following all the other irrelevant advice you provide, Medicare and Social Security will still implode.

    And neither Romney nor Ryan will do anything to stop it.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @58

    When did Medicare start?

    When did Social Security start?

    The Social Security Act was signed by FDR on 8/14/35. Taxes were collected for the first time in January 1937 and the first one-time, lump-sum payments were made that same month. Regular ongoing monthly benefits started in January 1940.

    When did Medicare start?

    Medicare was passed into law on July 30, 1965 but beneficiaries were first able to sign-up for the program on July 1, 1966.

    READ THE REST: http://www.ssa.gov/history/hfaq.html

    Social Security has been in existence for 79 years.

    Medicare has been in existence for only 46 years.

    Another resource for information is: http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/statcomps/supplement/2010/5a.html#table5.a4

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @58

    When did Medicare start?

    When did Social Security start?

    The Social Security Act was signed by FDR on 8/14/35. Taxes were collected for the first time in January 1937 and the first one-time, lump-sum payments were made that same month. Regular ongoing monthly benefits started in January 1940.

    When did Medicare start?

    Medicare was passed into law on July 30, 1965 but beneficiaries were first able to sign-up for the program on July 1, 1966.

    READ THE REST: http://www.ssa.gov/history/hfaq.html

    Social Security has been in existence for 79 years.

    Medicare has been in existence for only 46 years.

    Another resource for information is: http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/statcomps/supplement/2010/5a.html#table5.a4

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @ 58

    Medicare and Social Security, might very well be UN-available, that’s why I state: SAVE and help take care of your elders – it’s a GOOD EXAMPLE FOR YOUR CHILDREN TO OBSERVE FIRST HAND. Perhaps they will be more inclined to help you when you need it!

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @ 58

    Medicare and Social Security, might very well be UN-available, that’s why I state: SAVE and help take care of your elders – it’s a GOOD EXAMPLE FOR YOUR CHILDREN TO OBSERVE FIRST HAND. Perhaps they will be more inclined to help you when you need it!

  • Dan

    Cinci @52 –
    You’re right to a large degree. Reagen didn’t pick GHW Bush and then adopt all of Bush’s policies; Gore didn’t pick Lieberman and then adopt Lieberman’s views. The Veep slot is often a sop to the side of the party that didn’t win the primary.

    The choice of Paul Ryan is historic, although it remains to be seen how significant. It is historic because Ryan is a House member. It is also historic because Ryan, in an unlikely rise, became the intellectual leader of his party. Ryan’s rise, unlike Rubio’s or Christie’s, has been inseparable from the policy goals Ryan has pushed.

    Romney could have picked Rubio or Jindal as a sop to the right without picking up the baggage of Ryan’s policies. Rubio, at least, would have fired up the base as much as Ryan.

    What’s bothered me about Romney is the high degree of uncertainty I have about his core. It’s not just a matter of Romney specifically as it is the trend in national politics. Romney’s campaign had been willing to run not-Obama just as Obama had run as mostly not-Bush. If the country keeps electing not-thems, we won’t actually be deciding real policy solutions democratically. Maybe you will say that ship has sailed. Anyway.

    I’m not convinced the choice of Ryan is the initial direction that Romney wanted to go; i.e. that we’re seeing Romney’s core in Ryan. Some have suggested Ryan and Romney really do match each other in how they see the country’s challenges and solutions.

    Maybe. I think it is also possible that Romney sensed the race was invariably going to be a choice election and not a referendum election. It is possible he sensed this and changed his strategy. I think a choice election was inevitable because running on a platform of “repeal” without a defined “replace” is an implicit embrace of what preceded Obama- and no one is willing to defend that today. If the choice is Bush 2.0 v. Obama, Obama will win. If the choice is heartless Bain capitalism v. Obama, Obama will probably win.

    It may be that the Romney campaign will slide back to the vanilla not-Obama theme. But if Romney decided to make this a choice between Obama and Romey’s version of Ryan’s policies, then this choice was more significant than the usual VP pick. The Saturday speeches suggested a campaign messaging shift. We’ll see.

  • Dan

    Cinci @52 –
    You’re right to a large degree. Reagen didn’t pick GHW Bush and then adopt all of Bush’s policies; Gore didn’t pick Lieberman and then adopt Lieberman’s views. The Veep slot is often a sop to the side of the party that didn’t win the primary.

    The choice of Paul Ryan is historic, although it remains to be seen how significant. It is historic because Ryan is a House member. It is also historic because Ryan, in an unlikely rise, became the intellectual leader of his party. Ryan’s rise, unlike Rubio’s or Christie’s, has been inseparable from the policy goals Ryan has pushed.

    Romney could have picked Rubio or Jindal as a sop to the right without picking up the baggage of Ryan’s policies. Rubio, at least, would have fired up the base as much as Ryan.

    What’s bothered me about Romney is the high degree of uncertainty I have about his core. It’s not just a matter of Romney specifically as it is the trend in national politics. Romney’s campaign had been willing to run not-Obama just as Obama had run as mostly not-Bush. If the country keeps electing not-thems, we won’t actually be deciding real policy solutions democratically. Maybe you will say that ship has sailed. Anyway.

    I’m not convinced the choice of Ryan is the initial direction that Romney wanted to go; i.e. that we’re seeing Romney’s core in Ryan. Some have suggested Ryan and Romney really do match each other in how they see the country’s challenges and solutions.

    Maybe. I think it is also possible that Romney sensed the race was invariably going to be a choice election and not a referendum election. It is possible he sensed this and changed his strategy. I think a choice election was inevitable because running on a platform of “repeal” without a defined “replace” is an implicit embrace of what preceded Obama- and no one is willing to defend that today. If the choice is Bush 2.0 v. Obama, Obama will win. If the choice is heartless Bain capitalism v. Obama, Obama will probably win.

    It may be that the Romney campaign will slide back to the vanilla not-Obama theme. But if Romney decided to make this a choice between Obama and Romey’s version of Ryan’s policies, then this choice was more significant than the usual VP pick. The Saturday speeches suggested a campaign messaging shift. We’ll see.

  • Cincinnatus

    Grace@59:

    …what? The dinosaurs “started” 235 million years ago (or >6000 if you’re a YEC-er). I fail to see how the date of origin for these programs has anything to do with their projected solvency.

    Since you’re giving me reading assignments, you should read this: https://www.cms.gov/apps/media/press/release.asp?Counter=4341&intNumPerPage=10&checkDate=&checkKey=&srchType=1&numDays=3500&srchOpt=0&srchData=&keywordType=All&chkNewsType=1%2C+2%2C+3%2C+4%2C+5&intPage=&showAll=&pYear=&year=&desc=&cboOrder=date

    Medicare’s own trustees admit that the program will only be solvent until 2024. That’s a wildly optimistic estimate, actually. Social Security has been functioning as a wealth transfer from the working class to the retired class for some years already, which is unsustainable given current demographic trends. In short, open your eyes.

  • Cincinnatus

    Grace@59:

    …what? The dinosaurs “started” 235 million years ago (or >6000 if you’re a YEC-er). I fail to see how the date of origin for these programs has anything to do with their projected solvency.

    Since you’re giving me reading assignments, you should read this: https://www.cms.gov/apps/media/press/release.asp?Counter=4341&intNumPerPage=10&checkDate=&checkKey=&srchType=1&numDays=3500&srchOpt=0&srchData=&keywordType=All&chkNewsType=1%2C+2%2C+3%2C+4%2C+5&intPage=&showAll=&pYear=&year=&desc=&cboOrder=date

    Medicare’s own trustees admit that the program will only be solvent until 2024. That’s a wildly optimistic estimate, actually. Social Security has been functioning as a wealth transfer from the working class to the retired class for some years already, which is unsustainable given current demographic trends. In short, open your eyes.

  • Cincinnatus

    Dan@61:

    1) How is Ryan’s selection “historic”? A President chose a fellow Republican who appeals to his ambivalent base to run as his VP? Color me shocked!

    2) Romney doesn’t have a core. It’s that simple. He has no justification for running other than his own inflated opinion of himself. He has no meaningful platform, no substantive agenda, no predictable policy record (everything he says he’s for now, he was against as recently as a few years ago).

    For that matter, Ryan himself doesn’t have a core that extends beyond the exigencies of political image. Until 2009, he was a reliable neoconservative insider, voting for all the wars, all the bailouts, all the stimuli, all the extra Medicare. He changed his tune when several of his senior colleagues were ousted for those very votes.

  • Cincinnatus

    Dan@61:

    1) How is Ryan’s selection “historic”? A President chose a fellow Republican who appeals to his ambivalent base to run as his VP? Color me shocked!

    2) Romney doesn’t have a core. It’s that simple. He has no justification for running other than his own inflated opinion of himself. He has no meaningful platform, no substantive agenda, no predictable policy record (everything he says he’s for now, he was against as recently as a few years ago).

    For that matter, Ryan himself doesn’t have a core that extends beyond the exigencies of political image. Until 2009, he was a reliable neoconservative insider, voting for all the wars, all the bailouts, all the stimuli, all the extra Medicare. He changed his tune when several of his senior colleagues were ousted for those very votes.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @62

    “what? The dinosaurs “started” 235 million years ago (or >6000 if you’re a YEC-er). I fail to see how the date of origin for these programs has anything to do with their projected solvency.”

    The above has nothing to do with a discussion about Medicare and Social Security – throwing it out, as though you made an important statement regarding dates is aobtuse.

    OPEN your own EYES. It is very possible, if not probable that those who come of age to collect Medicare and Social Security will not be able to. That is why I have made the statements above.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @62

    “what? The dinosaurs “started” 235 million years ago (or >6000 if you’re a YEC-er). I fail to see how the date of origin for these programs has anything to do with their projected solvency.”

    The above has nothing to do with a discussion about Medicare and Social Security – throwing it out, as though you made an important statement regarding dates is aobtuse.

    OPEN your own EYES. It is very possible, if not probable that those who come of age to collect Medicare and Social Security will not be able to. That is why I have made the statements above.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @63

    Tell us more about how you don’t like Paul Ryan, one of the brightest guys in Washington.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @63

    Tell us more about how you don’t like Paul Ryan, one of the brightest guys in Washington.

  • Cincinnatus

    Grace@64:

    Wait, so we actually agree that SS and Medicare are or will soon be insolvent? Geez, you’re difficult to understand.

    And no, I don’t like Paul Ryan. I don’t like any national politicians at the moment. He was a strong electoral choice, however–though, as Dan suggests, Rubio may have been stronger. My guess is that Rubio refused.

  • Cincinnatus

    Grace@64:

    Wait, so we actually agree that SS and Medicare are or will soon be insolvent? Geez, you’re difficult to understand.

    And no, I don’t like Paul Ryan. I don’t like any national politicians at the moment. He was a strong electoral choice, however–though, as Dan suggests, Rubio may have been stronger. My guess is that Rubio refused.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @66

    I don’t think Rubio refused, he could have but I doubt it. Ryan has much more common sense, an ability to think faster than he speaks, knows his subjects inside and out, and most intelligent.

    Rubio has been in the Senate just more than a year. Ryan has been a Congressman for 12 years. Rubio does not have the experience! Big difference.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @66

    I don’t think Rubio refused, he could have but I doubt it. Ryan has much more common sense, an ability to think faster than he speaks, knows his subjects inside and out, and most intelligent.

    Rubio has been in the Senate just more than a year. Ryan has been a Congressman for 12 years. Rubio does not have the experience! Big difference.

  • Dan

    Cincinatus@63 –

    The pick is historic because a Rep. hasn’t been picked since Ferraro and hasn’t won since FDR; to find a Republican Rep. winning, you have to go back to Taft. It is also unusual for a budget chairman in the House to be his party’s leader in the way Ryan has.

    I granted that it’s possible that Romney has no core policy perspective. He may not have a core policy perspective and still believe he is a more capable manager than those he has run against.
    It is also possible the story Romney has told about his policy evolution is true. I’m not sure how you could be so certain given the information available.

    The idea that Ryan has no core is much harder to defend. Stephen Hayes wrote an interesting (to me) history of Ryan’s rise, here, http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/man-plan_648570.html

  • Dan

    Cincinatus@63 –

    The pick is historic because a Rep. hasn’t been picked since Ferraro and hasn’t won since FDR; to find a Republican Rep. winning, you have to go back to Taft. It is also unusual for a budget chairman in the House to be his party’s leader in the way Ryan has.

    I granted that it’s possible that Romney has no core policy perspective. He may not have a core policy perspective and still believe he is a more capable manager than those he has run against.
    It is also possible the story Romney has told about his policy evolution is true. I’m not sure how you could be so certain given the information available.

    The idea that Ryan has no core is much harder to defend. Stephen Hayes wrote an interesting (to me) history of Ryan’s rise, here, http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/man-plan_648570.html

  • larry

    Cin. you are pretty much on the money. This election has been and continues to be “of the least in total who show up to vote who can get more of their team there.” The coveted independent voting block is largely false, all cons. have until now been, regarding voting for MR, “what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas “, ie “Ill sneak in with a hat and glasses and vote for him, because what the hell else am I going to do! ” But Ill never publically admit it. And alarge swath of Obamas support are in fact dissapointed. So it becomes a “get most of my team there and I could win. PR does this, ie cons can publically pretend to be energized. He allows cons cover for MR.

    Rubio I am sure bowed out because he has pres. aspirations and nothing is more dead end for that than VP. A number of cons. knew that months ago. Hes been playing team ball for a while.

  • larry

    Cin. you are pretty much on the money. This election has been and continues to be “of the least in total who show up to vote who can get more of their team there.” The coveted independent voting block is largely false, all cons. have until now been, regarding voting for MR, “what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas “, ie “Ill sneak in with a hat and glasses and vote for him, because what the hell else am I going to do! ” But Ill never publically admit it. And alarge swath of Obamas support are in fact dissapointed. So it becomes a “get most of my team there and I could win. PR does this, ie cons can publically pretend to be energized. He allows cons cover for MR.

    Rubio I am sure bowed out because he has pres. aspirations and nothing is more dead end for that than VP. A number of cons. knew that months ago. Hes been playing team ball for a while.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Larry, your comment @ 50 is spot on!

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Larry, your comment @ 50 is spot on!

  • Steve

    Romney embraced Ryan after the sociopathic — indifferent to the truth — ad for Barack Obama that is meretricious about every important particular of the death from cancer of the wife of steelworker Joe Soptic. Obama’s desperate flailing about to justify four more years has sunk into such unhinged smarminess that Romney may have concluded: There is nothing Obama won’t say about me, because he has nothing to say for himself, so I will chose a running mate whose seriousness about large problems and ideas underscores what the president has become — silly and small. . . . Romney’s selection of a running mate was, in method and outcome, presidential. It underscores how little in the last four years merits that adjective. – George Will

  • Steve

    Romney embraced Ryan after the sociopathic — indifferent to the truth — ad for Barack Obama that is meretricious about every important particular of the death from cancer of the wife of steelworker Joe Soptic. Obama’s desperate flailing about to justify four more years has sunk into such unhinged smarminess that Romney may have concluded: There is nothing Obama won’t say about me, because he has nothing to say for himself, so I will chose a running mate whose seriousness about large problems and ideas underscores what the president has become — silly and small. . . . Romney’s selection of a running mate was, in method and outcome, presidential. It underscores how little in the last four years merits that adjective. – George Will

  • Steve
  • Steve
  • reg

    Steve,
    George Will’s rhetoric is so hyperventilatingly over the top that he is on the same level as Chris “tingling up my leg” Matthews. Perhaps he should take a cold shower to calm his over excited and engorged prefrontal lobes.

  • reg

    Steve,
    George Will’s rhetoric is so hyperventilatingly over the top that he is on the same level as Chris “tingling up my leg” Matthews. Perhaps he should take a cold shower to calm his over excited and engorged prefrontal lobes.

  • helen

    Obama could use Ryan’s budget plans to frighten older voters in Florida. There will be some questions about whether a 42-year-old with no executive experience could be ready to be president should something happen to Romney. (from Steve’s uk link)

    Don’t see how it could be worse.

  • helen

    Obama could use Ryan’s budget plans to frighten older voters in Florida. There will be some questions about whether a 42-year-old with no executive experience could be ready to be president should something happen to Romney. (from Steve’s uk link)

    Don’t see how it could be worse.

  • Grace

    helen

    John F. Kennedy was 43 when elected to office. That should put to rest the question of age.

    Kennedy represented Massachusetts’s 11th congressional district in the U.S. House of Representatives from 1947 to 1953 as a Democrat. Thereafter, he served in the U.S. Senate from 1953 until 1960.

    John Kennedy was in the U.S. House of Representatives for five years. He was in the Senate for seven years, a TOTAL of 12 years in the House and Senate combined.

    Paul Ryan is 42 years old. He has served in Congress for twelve years.

    Both Kennedy and Paul Ryan are/were Roman Catholics.

    Paul Ryan is just as capable as JFK to sit in the Oval Office.

  • Grace

    helen

    John F. Kennedy was 43 when elected to office. That should put to rest the question of age.

    Kennedy represented Massachusetts’s 11th congressional district in the U.S. House of Representatives from 1947 to 1953 as a Democrat. Thereafter, he served in the U.S. Senate from 1953 until 1960.

    John Kennedy was in the U.S. House of Representatives for five years. He was in the Senate for seven years, a TOTAL of 12 years in the House and Senate combined.

    Paul Ryan is 42 years old. He has served in Congress for twelve years.

    Both Kennedy and Paul Ryan are/were Roman Catholics.

    Paul Ryan is just as capable as JFK to sit in the Oval Office.

  • Susan

    Last night’s 60 minutes interview of Romney and Ryan was good. I find it encouraging that there are 2 grown-ups presenting adult plans and solid fiscal direction for our nation. It is such a refreshing contrast to Obama and Biden’s demagoguery and gutter campaign that it’s hard to believe there are people who will still be want to follow B.O. off a cliff even after such a clear choice is given to them. For anyone interested, the interview and a clip of what was cut on what they said about Medicare can be found here:

    http://www.therightscoop.com/mitt-romney-and-paul-ryan-in-their-first-joint-interview/

  • Susan

    Last night’s 60 minutes interview of Romney and Ryan was good. I find it encouraging that there are 2 grown-ups presenting adult plans and solid fiscal direction for our nation. It is such a refreshing contrast to Obama and Biden’s demagoguery and gutter campaign that it’s hard to believe there are people who will still be want to follow B.O. off a cliff even after such a clear choice is given to them. For anyone interested, the interview and a clip of what was cut on what they said about Medicare can be found here:

    http://www.therightscoop.com/mitt-romney-and-paul-ryan-in-their-first-joint-interview/

  • Tom Hering

    Waukesha WI, Sunday, August 12:

    Upon taking the stage, Ryan become visibly emotional, wiping his eyes … Taking the stage moments later, Romney said he had gotten tears in his eyes watching the “welcome” the crowd here had given his potential VP. (ABC News)

    What is it about Republican leaders and public crying? Ryan did say, “My veins run with cheese.” Maybe he’s in pain. 🙁

  • Tom Hering

    Waukesha WI, Sunday, August 12:

    Upon taking the stage, Ryan become visibly emotional, wiping his eyes … Taking the stage moments later, Romney said he had gotten tears in his eyes watching the “welcome” the crowd here had given his potential VP. (ABC News)

    What is it about Republican leaders and public crying? Ryan did say, “My veins run with cheese.” Maybe he’s in pain. 🙁

  • Tom Hering

    USAT/Gallup Poll: Paul Ryan gets low marks for VP

    Ryan, a Wisconsin congressman, is seen as only a “fair” or “poor” choice by 42% of Americans vs. 39% who think he is an “excellent” or “pretty good” vice presidential choice.

    … Only Dan Quayle in a 1988 Harris Poll of likely voters was viewed less positively than Ryan, with 52% rating Quayle as a “fair” or “poor” vice presidential choice. The Ryan poll includes all adults, not just registered voters.

    … The poll also finds 17% of adults say they’re more likely to vote for Romney in November because Ryan is his running mate — about the same impact Palin had for John McCain four years ago among registered voters.

    … The poll finds 36% of Republicans are now more likely to vote for Romney. In 2008, only 3 in 10 Republicans said the choice of Palin made them more likely to vote for McCain.

    … 48% of Americans view Ryan as qualified to be president if something should happen to Romney, while 29% do not and 23% were undecided. Only Palin, then the governor of Alaska, and Quayle, a two-term senator from Indiana, were rated lower than Ryan.

  • Tom Hering

    USAT/Gallup Poll: Paul Ryan gets low marks for VP

    Ryan, a Wisconsin congressman, is seen as only a “fair” or “poor” choice by 42% of Americans vs. 39% who think he is an “excellent” or “pretty good” vice presidential choice.

    … Only Dan Quayle in a 1988 Harris Poll of likely voters was viewed less positively than Ryan, with 52% rating Quayle as a “fair” or “poor” vice presidential choice. The Ryan poll includes all adults, not just registered voters.

    … The poll also finds 17% of adults say they’re more likely to vote for Romney in November because Ryan is his running mate — about the same impact Palin had for John McCain four years ago among registered voters.

    … The poll finds 36% of Republicans are now more likely to vote for Romney. In 2008, only 3 in 10 Republicans said the choice of Palin made them more likely to vote for McCain.

    … 48% of Americans view Ryan as qualified to be president if something should happen to Romney, while 29% do not and 23% were undecided. Only Palin, then the governor of Alaska, and Quayle, a two-term senator from Indiana, were rated lower than Ryan.

  • larry

    I would view polls with a skeptically eye. Americans are long on wind now days and short on action. Its like a lot of employees who bitch and gripe about leaving their “terrible ” job, usuallythe laziest, saying they are going to leave and such (yawn) but then reality smacks them in the face when this months bills show up. And the cycle goes on ad nausem.

  • larry

    I would view polls with a skeptically eye. Americans are long on wind now days and short on action. Its like a lot of employees who bitch and gripe about leaving their “terrible ” job, usuallythe laziest, saying they are going to leave and such (yawn) but then reality smacks them in the face when this months bills show up. And the cycle goes on ad nausem.

  • Tom Hering

    larry, it’s the first measure we have of immediate reaction among the general public, as opposed to the conservative base, whom Ryan was meant to satisfy.

  • Tom Hering

    larry, it’s the first measure we have of immediate reaction among the general public, as opposed to the conservative base, whom Ryan was meant to satisfy.

  • fjsteve

    Tom,

    Only Dan Quayle in a 1988 Harris Poll of likely voters was viewed less positively than Ryan, with 52% rating Quayle as a “fair” or “poor” vice presidential choice.

    I forget. Who won that election?

    The Ryan poll includes all adults, not just registered voters.

    And there you go. Not even registered voters, much less among likely voters. Oh,

  • fjsteve

    Tom,

    Only Dan Quayle in a 1988 Harris Poll of likely voters was viewed less positively than Ryan, with 52% rating Quayle as a “fair” or “poor” vice presidential choice.

    I forget. Who won that election?

    The Ryan poll includes all adults, not just registered voters.

    And there you go. Not even registered voters, much less among likely voters. Oh,

  • helen

    Grace @ 75
    helen

    John F. Kennedy was 43 when elected to office. That should put to rest the question of age.

    I wasn’t criticizing Ryan’s age or experience.
    I was comparing it to what we elected last time.

  • helen

    Grace @ 75
    helen

    John F. Kennedy was 43 when elected to office. That should put to rest the question of age.

    I wasn’t criticizing Ryan’s age or experience.
    I was comparing it to what we elected last time.

  • helen

    @50
    Vote as wisely as one can when the time comes and don’t wring your hands about it, the church, even when the country fails will still be doing what it has always been doing…administering Word and Sacrament. Far too much wind is given to these delusions we call leaders and politicians…right, left or independent.

    In the church we call them (or they call themselves) other things,
    some pretty sanctimonious, but your comment is applicable there, too.

  • helen

    @50
    Vote as wisely as one can when the time comes and don’t wring your hands about it, the church, even when the country fails will still be doing what it has always been doing…administering Word and Sacrament. Far too much wind is given to these delusions we call leaders and politicians…right, left or independent.

    In the church we call them (or they call themselves) other things,
    some pretty sanctimonious, but your comment is applicable there, too.

  • So this is now two elections running in which nearly nobody is excited about the actual Republican presidential candidate, but a handful of people (including the bulk of commenters here) are really excited about the VP candidate.

    “I don’t know, it didn’t work in 2008, but maybe it’ll work this time?”

    Still, I think Romney’s pick is working the exact magic it was intended to: to allow people (again, especially this group) to momentarily forget that Romney is still the actual candidate they would be voting for.

    All I know is that, should this gambit actually work and Romney makes his way into the White House, he’d better watch his back. Because, off the top of my head, I can think of maybe two people who’ll be happy Romney’s there.

  • So this is now two elections running in which nearly nobody is excited about the actual Republican presidential candidate, but a handful of people (including the bulk of commenters here) are really excited about the VP candidate.

    “I don’t know, it didn’t work in 2008, but maybe it’ll work this time?”

    Still, I think Romney’s pick is working the exact magic it was intended to: to allow people (again, especially this group) to momentarily forget that Romney is still the actual candidate they would be voting for.

    All I know is that, should this gambit actually work and Romney makes his way into the White House, he’d better watch his back. Because, off the top of my head, I can think of maybe two people who’ll be happy Romney’s there.

  • Grace

    Sarah Palin and Paul Ryan have little in common.

    Paul Ryan is a billiant man, Sarah Palin enjoyed the limelight, but had little to offer regarding experience.

    Paul Ryan spending 12 years in Washington, as a Congressman, is much different than Palin who was Governor of Alaska, December 2006 until her resignation in July 2009. Take into consideration she started running for VP just a year after she was Governor.

  • Grace

    Sarah Palin and Paul Ryan have little in common.

    Paul Ryan is a billiant man, Sarah Palin enjoyed the limelight, but had little to offer regarding experience.

    Paul Ryan spending 12 years in Washington, as a Congressman, is much different than Palin who was Governor of Alaska, December 2006 until her resignation in July 2009. Take into consideration she started running for VP just a year after she was Governor.

  • larry

    That’s a good BINGO Todd, spot on the $!

  • larry

    That’s a good BINGO Todd, spot on the $!

  • Cincinnatus

    Grace, you missed tODD’s point. (I feel like the trot out this phrase pretty often these days.)

    The analogy isn’t between Palin and Ryan, but between Romney and McCain. Both candidates are unpopular with the Republican base, so both made “exciting” VP choices to distract from the vacuousness and/or mediocrity of their own candidacies. What are we talking about now? Ryan and his wonderful plans for America; we sure aren’t talking Romney and his wonderful plans–primarily because he doesn’t have any, which is why he selected a titillating VP candidate who does.

    Similarly, what were we talking about this time in 2008? Palin, who overshadowed the fact that McCain was an old, RINO fart out of touch with the Republican base and with America in general. In the end, Ryan may prove to be a better (or let’s say less embarrassing) distraction than Palin was because of his substantive experience, but the point is that both VP candidates were chosen as a distraction.

    Think tODD and I are wrong? Here are some things people aren’t talking about that they were only two days ago (on this very blog, in some cases!): Romney’s Mormonism, Romney’s moderate (or even progressive) policy history; Romney’s potentially dubious involvement with Bain Capital; Romney’s refusal to release his income tax returns; Romney’s poll numbers; the fact that Romney doesn’t have a platform or personality that anyone cares about; the fact that Romney has no rapport with conservatives; the fact that Romney will be the President if elected and not Ryan.

  • Cincinnatus

    Grace, you missed tODD’s point. (I feel like the trot out this phrase pretty often these days.)

    The analogy isn’t between Palin and Ryan, but between Romney and McCain. Both candidates are unpopular with the Republican base, so both made “exciting” VP choices to distract from the vacuousness and/or mediocrity of their own candidacies. What are we talking about now? Ryan and his wonderful plans for America; we sure aren’t talking Romney and his wonderful plans–primarily because he doesn’t have any, which is why he selected a titillating VP candidate who does.

    Similarly, what were we talking about this time in 2008? Palin, who overshadowed the fact that McCain was an old, RINO fart out of touch with the Republican base and with America in general. In the end, Ryan may prove to be a better (or let’s say less embarrassing) distraction than Palin was because of his substantive experience, but the point is that both VP candidates were chosen as a distraction.

    Think tODD and I are wrong? Here are some things people aren’t talking about that they were only two days ago (on this very blog, in some cases!): Romney’s Mormonism, Romney’s moderate (or even progressive) policy history; Romney’s potentially dubious involvement with Bain Capital; Romney’s refusal to release his income tax returns; Romney’s poll numbers; the fact that Romney doesn’t have a platform or personality that anyone cares about; the fact that Romney has no rapport with conservatives; the fact that Romney will be the President if elected and not Ryan.

  • Cincinnatus

    And as I recall, Grace was especially hysterical about Romney’s Mormonism. Does Ryan’s face make it all better, Grace?

  • Cincinnatus

    And as I recall, Grace was especially hysterical about Romney’s Mormonism. Does Ryan’s face make it all better, Grace?

  • Jonathan

    Cin’s points @87, and tODD’s before that, are dead on. Ryan allows the disgruntled right to look away from Romney for awhile and still feel good about November. But, as has been noted, Palin, Cheney, Kemp, and Quayle were chosen for the same reason. Only in Cheney’s case did it result in success, and that was because GOP voters thought Cheney balanced the inexperienced Bush, not provided him with an ideology. It doesn’t work when the VP candidate is the ideological one – or it hasn’t yet. I doubt it will this time. You’ve still got Romney on the top.

  • Jonathan

    Cin’s points @87, and tODD’s before that, are dead on. Ryan allows the disgruntled right to look away from Romney for awhile and still feel good about November. But, as has been noted, Palin, Cheney, Kemp, and Quayle were chosen for the same reason. Only in Cheney’s case did it result in success, and that was because GOP voters thought Cheney balanced the inexperienced Bush, not provided him with an ideology. It doesn’t work when the VP candidate is the ideological one – or it hasn’t yet. I doubt it will this time. You’ve still got Romney on the top.

  • Jonathan

    As this thread dies, I nonetheless throw out this question to any ‘pro lifer’ reading: why does Romney get a pro-life pass on “Romneycare”? Consider:

    The only substantive difference between “Romneycare” and “Obamacare” is that the former included direct taxpayer funding for abortions, while the Affordable Care Act did not. The ACA also included $250 million to support vulnerable pregnant women and alternatives to abortion. More broadly, it seeks to never put a woman in the appalling circumstance of having to choose between paying upwards of $20,000 out of pocket for maternity costs versus $400 for a quick and dirty abortion.

    Yet “Romneycare” (tax funding of abortions) remains the law of Massachusetts. And Romney’s the pro life candidate….. (?)

  • Jonathan

    As this thread dies, I nonetheless throw out this question to any ‘pro lifer’ reading: why does Romney get a pro-life pass on “Romneycare”? Consider:

    The only substantive difference between “Romneycare” and “Obamacare” is that the former included direct taxpayer funding for abortions, while the Affordable Care Act did not. The ACA also included $250 million to support vulnerable pregnant women and alternatives to abortion. More broadly, it seeks to never put a woman in the appalling circumstance of having to choose between paying upwards of $20,000 out of pocket for maternity costs versus $400 for a quick and dirty abortion.

    Yet “Romneycare” (tax funding of abortions) remains the law of Massachusetts. And Romney’s the pro life candidate….. (?)

  • Cincinnatus

    Jonathan@90: Does he get a pass on it? Commentators and conservatives have critiqued Romney’s record on abortion–and other cultural issues like gay marriage–since he announced his candidacy. Romney’s just hoping that voters will either forget about Romneycare or that they will buy him when he claims a) that he opposes ACA, even if it’s inconsistent with his past actions, and b) that an individual mandate at the state level is qualitatively distinct from a mandate at the federal level (and on this he’s correct).

    Either way, abortion isn’t going to be a big issue this election, except as it pertains to the HHS mandate, and that debate won’t center on abortion so much as it does religious freedom.

    Anyway, don’t ask hard questions. PAUL RYAN.

  • Cincinnatus

    Jonathan@90: Does he get a pass on it? Commentators and conservatives have critiqued Romney’s record on abortion–and other cultural issues like gay marriage–since he announced his candidacy. Romney’s just hoping that voters will either forget about Romneycare or that they will buy him when he claims a) that he opposes ACA, even if it’s inconsistent with his past actions, and b) that an individual mandate at the state level is qualitatively distinct from a mandate at the federal level (and on this he’s correct).

    Either way, abortion isn’t going to be a big issue this election, except as it pertains to the HHS mandate, and that debate won’t center on abortion so much as it does religious freedom.

    Anyway, don’t ask hard questions. PAUL RYAN.

  • Actually, Jonathan (@90), one of the biggest criticisms of Romney as a candidate is that he PAUL RYAN.

    Let me try that again. Another thing that would appear anathema to conservative voters is Romney’s record when it comes to PAUL RYAN.

    … That’s odd. Every time I try to criticize Romney, it PAUL RYAN.

    … Is this happening for anyone else?

  • Actually, Jonathan (@90), one of the biggest criticisms of Romney as a candidate is that he PAUL RYAN.

    Let me try that again. Another thing that would appear anathema to conservative voters is Romney’s record when it comes to PAUL RYAN.

    … That’s odd. Every time I try to criticize Romney, it PAUL RYAN.

    … Is this happening for anyone else?

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @ 87

    “Grace, you missed tODD’s point. (I feel like the trot out this phrase pretty often these days.)

    The analogy isn’t between Palin and Ryan, but between Romney and McCain. Both candidates are unpopular with the Republican base, so both made “exciting” VP choices to distract from the vacuousness and/or mediocrity of their own candidacies.”

    I wasn’t referring to anything tODD wrote. I stated my analogy between Palin and Ryan. I don’t read much, or all of anything tODD writes.

    As for Romney and McCain, .. Romney is much more popular than McCain ever was – that’s not to say I like Romney, I don’t. Palin wasn’t exciting – her constant smart remarks were juvenile. Paul Ryan is far and above Palin, she is not in the same league with him, he’s brilliant, she isn’t – he has vast experience, Palin didn’t.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @ 87

    “Grace, you missed tODD’s point. (I feel like the trot out this phrase pretty often these days.)

    The analogy isn’t between Palin and Ryan, but between Romney and McCain. Both candidates are unpopular with the Republican base, so both made “exciting” VP choices to distract from the vacuousness and/or mediocrity of their own candidacies.”

    I wasn’t referring to anything tODD wrote. I stated my analogy between Palin and Ryan. I don’t read much, or all of anything tODD writes.

    As for Romney and McCain, .. Romney is much more popular than McCain ever was – that’s not to say I like Romney, I don’t. Palin wasn’t exciting – her constant smart remarks were juvenile. Paul Ryan is far and above Palin, she is not in the same league with him, he’s brilliant, she isn’t – he has vast experience, Palin didn’t.

  • trotk

    Grace noted in #93, “As for Romney and McCain, .. Romney is much more popular than McCain ever was…”

    Except that when they ran head to head, McCain won. Strange for the less popular one to win the nomination of his party.

    On a different note, is anyone (Grace?) bothered by Ryan’s devotion to Ayn Rand? He said (according to Wikpedia, which references a press release I couldn’t read because I didn’t feel like signing up) that she shaped his “identity, values, and beliefs.” Does that trouble any of the people who are so excited about him?

  • trotk

    Grace noted in #93, “As for Romney and McCain, .. Romney is much more popular than McCain ever was…”

    Except that when they ran head to head, McCain won. Strange for the less popular one to win the nomination of his party.

    On a different note, is anyone (Grace?) bothered by Ryan’s devotion to Ayn Rand? He said (according to Wikpedia, which references a press release I couldn’t read because I didn’t feel like signing up) that she shaped his “identity, values, and beliefs.” Does that trouble any of the people who are so excited about him?

  • Grace

    trokt @ 94

    “On a different note, is anyone (Grace?) bothered by Ryan’s devotion to Ayn Rand? He said (according to Wikpedia, which references a press release I couldn’t read because I didn’t feel like signing up) that she shaped his “identity, values, and beliefs.” Does that trouble any of the people who are so excited about him?"

    If you didn’t read it, no matter whether you wanted to “signing up” isn’t valid – you don’t know what you’re talking about. Why would it “trouble” anyone, you didn’t even feel like “signing up” LOL

    You’re wadling all over the place.. LOL What “troubles” most people is when someone isn’t able, or interested enough to “sign up” and find out what reallly is the issue.

  • Grace

    trokt @ 94

    “On a different note, is anyone (Grace?) bothered by Ryan’s devotion to Ayn Rand? He said (according to Wikpedia, which references a press release I couldn’t read because I didn’t feel like signing up) that she shaped his “identity, values, and beliefs.” Does that trouble any of the people who are so excited about him?"

    If you didn’t read it, no matter whether you wanted to “signing up” isn’t valid – you don’t know what you’re talking about. Why would it “trouble” anyone, you didn’t even feel like “signing up” LOL

    You’re wadling all over the place.. LOL What “troubles” most people is when someone isn’t able, or interested enough to “sign up” and find out what reallly is the issue.

  • sg

    I have to ask: I’m not sure how old you are, but I’m curious what your grandparents or parents (whichever are over 65) use for health insurance?

    They are deceased, but one had military coverage.

    Without government insurance, could they afford to go out and purchase health insurance on their own, or afford their own medical bills?

    Yes.
    Mostly very healthy and good money managers.
    One spinster sister of my grandmother worked for the highway dept in Oregon. She died a couple of years ago at age 87. Her estate was $480,000. I ended up with part of it because she had no heirs but her siblings and some of them predeceased her so it got passed down to us.

  • sg

    I have to ask: I’m not sure how old you are, but I’m curious what your grandparents or parents (whichever are over 65) use for health insurance?

    They are deceased, but one had military coverage.

    Without government insurance, could they afford to go out and purchase health insurance on their own, or afford their own medical bills?

    Yes.
    Mostly very healthy and good money managers.
    One spinster sister of my grandmother worked for the highway dept in Oregon. She died a couple of years ago at age 87. Her estate was $480,000. I ended up with part of it because she had no heirs but her siblings and some of them predeceased her so it got passed down to us.

  • Grace

    sg,

    Reading your post above is a bit difficult. You don’t address it to any individual (which is not unusal) however, by not doing so, you leave no reason to answer your question. Asking the age or circling that idea isn’t always going to be met with an answer.

  • Grace

    sg,

    Reading your post above is a bit difficult. You don’t address it to any individual (which is not unusal) however, by not doing so, you leave no reason to answer your question. Asking the age or circling that idea isn’t always going to be met with an answer.

  • sg

    I messed up the format.

  • sg

    I messed up the format.

  • sg

    ” You don’t address it to any individual (which is not unusal) ”

    Right, because I am answering a question not a person. It is only interesting as an anecdote anyway. It doesn’t really matter who asked or answered. It is about patterns and structure and incidence. That is what is interesting.

  • sg

    ” You don’t address it to any individual (which is not unusal) ”

    Right, because I am answering a question not a person. It is only interesting as an anecdote anyway. It doesn’t really matter who asked or answered. It is about patterns and structure and incidence. That is what is interesting.

  • sg

    100

    “you leave no reason to answer your question”

    I didn’t ask a question.

  • sg

    100

    “you leave no reason to answer your question”

    I didn’t ask a question.

  • Grace

    Sg,

    Your post is part of Michael B. @ 23 .

    You scramble it up. Why is that? Why aren’t ou able to give the quote with post number, so that anyone reading your YOUR POST would know what you’re writing about?

    It makes no sense.

  • Grace

    Sg,

    Your post is part of Michael B. @ 23 .

    You scramble it up. Why is that? Why aren’t ou able to give the quote with post number, so that anyone reading your YOUR POST would know what you’re writing about?

    It makes no sense.

  • Grace

    sg @ 99

    “Right, because I am answering a question not a person. It is only interesting as an anecdote anyway. It doesn’t really matter who asked or answered. It is about patterns and structure and incidence. That is what is interesting.”

    You were asking a question, but at the same time you were copy paste. It does matter, it’s too bad you cannot see or understand.

    It’s not about “patterns” and “structure” – it’s about keeping a conversation on course, (within a blog setting) by using post numbers and posters names. There is nothing “interesting” in searching out what you quote from someone else, not leaving a name or a post number, it’s silly and juvenile. You play a cat and mouse game, ie: calling card. Not clever.

  • Grace

    sg @ 99

    “Right, because I am answering a question not a person. It is only interesting as an anecdote anyway. It doesn’t really matter who asked or answered. It is about patterns and structure and incidence. That is what is interesting.”

    You were asking a question, but at the same time you were copy paste. It does matter, it’s too bad you cannot see or understand.

    It’s not about “patterns” and “structure” – it’s about keeping a conversation on course, (within a blog setting) by using post numbers and posters names. There is nothing “interesting” in searching out what you quote from someone else, not leaving a name or a post number, it’s silly and juvenile. You play a cat and mouse game, ie: calling card. Not clever.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @88

    “And as I recall, Grace was especially hysterical about Romney’s Mormonism. Does Ryan’s face make it all better, Grace?”

    There is no reason for YOU to become “hysterical” about something I haven’t done, or put words in my mouth, (holler) which you are so accustomed to doing, for lack of something to write.

    Mormonism is a problem for many, as it is a cult. What is disturbing; the majority of people don’t understand, or care to take the time to understand the centermost deep core of their beliefs.

    “My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself.”

    Founder Mormon Church, Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 4, 1844

    Another QUOTE:

    “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see
    Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345

    Scripture which contradicts Joseph Smith’s beliefs.

    Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me, Isaiah 43:10

    I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God Isaiah 44:6

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @88

    “And as I recall, Grace was especially hysterical about Romney’s Mormonism. Does Ryan’s face make it all better, Grace?”

    There is no reason for YOU to become “hysterical” about something I haven’t done, or put words in my mouth, (holler) which you are so accustomed to doing, for lack of something to write.

    Mormonism is a problem for many, as it is a cult. What is disturbing; the majority of people don’t understand, or care to take the time to understand the centermost deep core of their beliefs.

    “My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself.”

    Founder Mormon Church, Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 4, 1844

    Another QUOTE:

    “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see
    Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345

    Scripture which contradicts Joseph Smith’s beliefs.

    Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me, Isaiah 43:10

    I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God Isaiah 44:6

  • Trotk (@94), not sure what Wikipedia source was requiring you to sign up, but the Atlas Society (you can guess their schtick from the name) has released the audio of Ryan’s 2005 speech to that group.

    Sample quotes:

    I grew up reading Ayn Rand and it taught me quite a bit about who I am and what my value systems are, and what my beliefs are. It’s inspired me so much that it’s required reading in my office for all my interns and my staff. …

    But the reason I got involved in public service, by and large, if I had to credit one thinker, one person, it would be Ayn Rand. …

    It’s so important that we go back to our roots to look at Ayn Rand’s vision, her writings, to see what our girding, under-grounding principles are. …

    Because there is no better place to find the moral case for capitalism and individualism than through Ayn Rand’s writings and works.

    Of course, that was 2005, before Ryan was a rising star. Seven years later, Ryan was heard saying this:

    I reject her philosophy. It’s an atheist philosophy. It reduces human interactions down to mere contracts and it is antithetical to my worldview. If somebody is going to try to paste a person’s view on epistemology to me, then give me Thomas Aquinas, who believed that man needs divine help in the pursuit of knowledge. Don’t give me Ayn Rand.

    Did Ryan’s views mature in seven years? Or is this just the flip-flopping of Romney-esque political expediency?

    I also need to note that several articles point out that Ryan enjoys (catfish) noodling.

  • Trotk (@94), not sure what Wikipedia source was requiring you to sign up, but the Atlas Society (you can guess their schtick from the name) has released the audio of Ryan’s 2005 speech to that group.

    Sample quotes:

    I grew up reading Ayn Rand and it taught me quite a bit about who I am and what my value systems are, and what my beliefs are. It’s inspired me so much that it’s required reading in my office for all my interns and my staff. …

    But the reason I got involved in public service, by and large, if I had to credit one thinker, one person, it would be Ayn Rand. …

    It’s so important that we go back to our roots to look at Ayn Rand’s vision, her writings, to see what our girding, under-grounding principles are. …

    Because there is no better place to find the moral case for capitalism and individualism than through Ayn Rand’s writings and works.

    Of course, that was 2005, before Ryan was a rising star. Seven years later, Ryan was heard saying this:

    I reject her philosophy. It’s an atheist philosophy. It reduces human interactions down to mere contracts and it is antithetical to my worldview. If somebody is going to try to paste a person’s view on epistemology to me, then give me Thomas Aquinas, who believed that man needs divine help in the pursuit of knowledge. Don’t give me Ayn Rand.

    Did Ryan’s views mature in seven years? Or is this just the flip-flopping of Romney-esque political expediency?

    I also need to note that several articles point out that Ryan enjoys (catfish) noodling.

  • fjsteve

    tODD, I’m not a Ryan apologist (I’m sure you can guess what follows)… BUT… if you want to pick nits, he never said Rand’s philosophy was his own philosophy but that it help him form his own value system and views on public service. I can think of a few philosophers and intellectuals off the top of my head whose overall worldview is one I would reject but whose writings have helped me form my own personal worldview. Many here would probably credit Aristotle, if even just a little but, for helping them form their own worldview but I doubt even one would claim Aristotle’s complete philosophy as their own. Heck, who here would claim Luther’s entire worldview as their own? Now, I can flinch at a Roman Catholic saying he was inspired to public service by Ayn Rand, but that’s different than saying he flip-flopped.

  • fjsteve

    tODD, I’m not a Ryan apologist (I’m sure you can guess what follows)… BUT… if you want to pick nits, he never said Rand’s philosophy was his own philosophy but that it help him form his own value system and views on public service. I can think of a few philosophers and intellectuals off the top of my head whose overall worldview is one I would reject but whose writings have helped me form my own personal worldview. Many here would probably credit Aristotle, if even just a little but, for helping them form their own worldview but I doubt even one would claim Aristotle’s complete philosophy as their own. Heck, who here would claim Luther’s entire worldview as their own? Now, I can flinch at a Roman Catholic saying he was inspired to public service by Ayn Rand, but that’s different than saying he flip-flopped.

  • sg

    @104

    The problem for me in understanding Ryan’s comments is that they are too vague. Let’s say for the sake of argument that Ryan and Rand agree with the seventh commandment prohibiting theft. I think we are able to understand that theft can take many forms. So, if Ryan saw in Rand’s work many illustrations of how people’s property, time, lives, productivity etc., can be stolen from them by government regulations that served the purposes of graft rather than the genuine public interest, then I can see how a Christian could learn something from Rand’s illustrations. Consider all of your favorite philosophers. You could not possibly agree with all of them on everything. Yet they still give us much to consider.

    So, just as labor rightly complained that capital can greedily steal labor’s fair share of their fruits, so also the capitalists can sometimes be correct in complaining that government is stealing its share of the fruits.

    I offer this as a possible interpretation. I can’t know what Ryan thinks because the his comments (as cited by tODD) are too vague for me to know.

  • sg

    @104

    The problem for me in understanding Ryan’s comments is that they are too vague. Let’s say for the sake of argument that Ryan and Rand agree with the seventh commandment prohibiting theft. I think we are able to understand that theft can take many forms. So, if Ryan saw in Rand’s work many illustrations of how people’s property, time, lives, productivity etc., can be stolen from them by government regulations that served the purposes of graft rather than the genuine public interest, then I can see how a Christian could learn something from Rand’s illustrations. Consider all of your favorite philosophers. You could not possibly agree with all of them on everything. Yet they still give us much to consider.

    So, just as labor rightly complained that capital can greedily steal labor’s fair share of their fruits, so also the capitalists can sometimes be correct in complaining that government is stealing its share of the fruits.

    I offer this as a possible interpretation. I can’t know what Ryan thinks because the his comments (as cited by tODD) are too vague for me to know.