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Liminal Living


Shalom and Salvation EPISODE 0

Shalom is a big word in the Old Testament. It is directly translated as peace into English, but the Hebrew is much larger than an absence of conflict. It is a universal flourishing of all of God's creation. In this podcast series we explore how the roots of the New Testament concept of salvation is rooted in this word: Shalom. When the Old Testament was translated from Hebrew into Greek it took three words to translate Shalom. We will explore these three words and their connection to salvation: peace with God, others, and self. https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/

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Shalom and Salvation 2
Episode 1
Shalom and Salvation 2
Shalom with God means taking up your cross, crucifying everything from the old creation in order to make way for the new creation and new identity that God has for us. This is the message of John 1-4. https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E1: Jayson Simonson: Deconstruction and Poverty
Episode 1
S2 E1: Jayson Simonson: Deconstruction and Poverty
Today I talk to long time friend, Jayson Simonson, Chief Resource Officer of New International. We talk about his deconstruction process and his passion for eliminating poverty. 1:34 his faith story 3:23 Deconstruction and Poverty 10:21 Deconstruction and Spiritual Direction 12:10 Deconstruction and the nature of Truth 14:57 Church Bureaucracy and Truth 17:47 Church Entertainment Machine 21:56 Politicizing Poverty 31:17 Christian Authoritarian Empire 38:40 Row v Wade 41:38 January 6th Insurrection Spirit 48:28 Empowerment vs Power 52:19 Liminal Living Tips 57:24 Sources and Motivations All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree: https://soundcloud.com/axletree Voiceover provided by: play.ht https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S3 E1: Alana Levandoski: The Longing is Home
Episode 1
S3 E1: Alana Levandoski: The Longing is Home
S3 E1: Alana Levandoski: The Longing is Home Welcome to season 3 of the Liminal Living podcast. And today we talk with spiritual teacher, artist, and musician, Alana Levandoski. Alana has gone on pilgrimages and come back to alchemize her experiences into music. Her perspective is large and her wisdom is deep. On today’s episode we talk about the importance of longing within the human soul, and how we embody that longing. Our conversation is broad and deep so buckle up. You can connect with Alana’s work at alanalevandoski.com Time Stamps for the episode: 02:34 Pilgrimage and place 07:21 Finding and reclaiming your roots 12:41 Find your people 18:45 Pilgrimage through time in the place you stand 23:13 Healing your soul is changing the world 28:01 Developing a “Christ Consciousness” 33:18 You can’t think your way out of trauma 37:38 A passing age gives birth to another 41:19 Feminine wisdom birth’s Christ into the world 46:49 Escaping the cerebral age without destroying it 49:47 Theologian as Artist 54:00 Leaving the music industry for mysticism 59:06 Learning from Thomas Merton and James Finley 59:06 Do the work 1:09:08 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
Shalom and Salvation 3
Episode 2
Shalom and Salvation 3
Shalom is a big word in the Old Testament and the roots of New Testament Salvation dig into this soil. To fulfill the great commandment: Love God, others, and self, we need shalom in all three areas. In this talk we speak of Shalom with self rooted in the concept of New Testament maturity. https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E2: Dr. Paul Jones: Deconstruction Post Pastoring
Episode 2
S2 E2: Dr. Paul Jones: Deconstruction Post Pastoring
In this conversation with my dear friend Dr. Paul Jones, we hear his story of deconstruction, burnout, exiting the pastoral world as a profession, abandonment by Christian friends and colleagues, and finding his way through the dark night. 0:48 Introductions 6:02 Life Post Pastor 10:14 Dark Night of the Soul 14:24 Church planting and pressure 19:07 Building the Church Machine 23:36 Ego, Burnout,Boundaries 25:36 Trump, Christian Nationalism 27:02 Depression, Almost Atheist 30:25 Spiritual Direction and Counseling 36:35 Rethinking Church 41:31 Love not Found 47:07 The Unforgivable sin: Trump 52:19 Liminal Living Tips 57:39 Conclusions All music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://soundcloud.com/axletree Voiceover for this episode is provided by Play.ht https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S3 E2: Dr Emily Smith: Your Friendly Neighborhood Epidemiologist
Episode 2
S3 E2: Dr Emily Smith: Your Friendly Neighborhood Epidemiologist
Dr Emily Smith is a PhD epidemiologist whose work has been featured in TIME Magazine, Christianity Today, the Washington Post, and NPR. Dr Emily’s profession as an epidemiologist was a natural way to express her Christian values for loving her neighbor. So when the pandemic hit, she was in a unique spot to rally the church together to love their neighbor as the Good Samaritan taught, or so she thought. Expressing her expertise online made her a target, even from her own church members, whom her husband was pastor of. After threats to her children were made, she broke down with debilitating and chronic migraines for 15 months, spending 6 months in bed. When she was well enough, she wrote of her experiences in a published book entitled, The Science of the Good Samaritan. We have an honest conversation about her journey through this time, and her book. You can connect with Dr Emily’s work at https://emilysmith.substack.com You can purchase her book at https://rb.gy/94v8jh Time Stamps for the episode: 03:08 Science, Astronomy, and Liminal Space 06:25 Epidemiology and Equity 11:02 Searching for the story behind the data 15:24 White collar violence 20:55 Systemic Racism’s historical effect 25:59 Faith over fear… what it really points to 31:03 Speaking out and being thirst into liminal space 36:23 The Evangelical machine 41:28 Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism 45:38 Healing in the dirt in the garden 51:05 Thinking globally 56:37 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
Shalom and Salvation 4
Episode 3
Shalom and Salvation 4
In our fourth and final installation of the Shalom and Salvation series we explore how the broken shalom of the earth is a reflection of the broken shalom of the human souls found within. We explore, briefly, climate change, social justice, and restoring Shalom: a harmonious interdependence of all parts of God's creation. https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E3: Jeremie Wilson: Exiting the Faith
Episode 3
S2 E3: Jeremie Wilson: Exiting the Faith
Today, I talk with Jeremie Wilson, a great friend, a great musician, a great soul. He shares his experience growing up in the faith as the son of a musical evangelist, his exploration of science with his college degree, his journey into church leadership, seeing how the sausage is made, and his eventual exit of the faith when there was no hospitality to reconcile his understanding of science with the demands of fundamentalist religion. 0:48 Introduction 5:04 Faith upbringing, CCM, Kieth Green 10:06 Stress of art, poverty, and false hopes of God given fame 14:16 Prosperity Gospel, Artistic Insecurity, Success 18:59 The Bible, Justice, Politics, Christian Nationalism 23:38 Systemic Theology, Communal Conformity 27:14 Science and Faith, Young Earth Creationism, Conspiracy Thinking 33:17 At odds with the faith, no space for discussion 38:36 Quiet Quitting the Church 42:27 Trying church again, but with kids 47:30 Deacon to Elder to Board Member 52:51 Excluded 57:13 Overcoming his religious prejudice 59:22 Church as a Club, the “Agent Arena Relationship” 1:05:34 Art as Healing 1:08:42 My Gay Brother-in-Law 1:13:11 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree: @axletree Voiceover for this episode is provided by Play.ht https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S3 E3: Jason Raitz: Trying to Stay in Church, Post-pastorate
Episode 3
S3 E3: Jason Raitz: Trying to Stay in Church, Post-pastorate
When a pastor has experienced both the beauty of a spiritual community, and the hurt and abuse of demands for excellence for nearly 26 years, it is a confusing place to occupy. Jason Raitz and I have been friends for nearly 30 years, walking with each other through the highs and lows of our lives. We have landed in very different places; geographically, socially, theologically. But our lives continue to intersect and enrich each other. Today we have an honest conversation about the liminal space he is in, wondering what role the church plays in his life, and the world. We leave it unresolved, because that is liminal space, and that is reality for most of life. You can connect with Jason’s work here: https://www.speakwithpeople.com/ Time Stamps for the episode: 03:10 30 years of friendship 06:42 My “conversion” story, and Jason’s role in it 11:18 A decision to be a pastor, at age 20 15:34 First call to a church, at 20 years old 20:53 Crashing the Ego in a field 25:55 The Pressure of Excellence 30:48 Generosity and Abuse from the same source 36:18 Leaving Willow Creek to plant a church 41:46 Driving the hype train off the cliff 46:33 Leaving the pastorate to start a business 51:20 Deconstructing ecclesially 56:45 Finding a new identity post pastorate 1:02:00 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
Chronos Kairos, A Theology of Time 1
Episode 4
Chronos Kairos, A Theology of Time 1
We all live within the confines of time. Time is defined as the progess of existence and events from future into the present and on into the past. Seconds, minutes, hours, days, years, all pass before us and disappear into oblivion never to be seen again. Where did yesterday go? Where is tomorrow stored? If you pinpoint the present moment as one second on a calendar, Time is rushing in and rushing onward without a pause. The Bible calls this: chronos. Everything when looked through this understanding of time is meaningless, as the writer of Ecclesiastes says. But there is a deeper understanding of time, one that is eternal, an understanding that time comes from somewhere, and this somewhere gives meaning. (music by: http://dexterbritain.co.uk/ ) https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E4: Dr David Rice: Grief, Trauma, Transition in Ministry
Episode 4
S2 E4: Dr David Rice: Grief, Trauma, Transition in Ministry
Today I talked to Dr. David Rice about his journey into a pastoral role that followed the retirement of a beloved pastor of 33 years. They asked for change, but resisted, while shortly into this position David's father passed away. He learned that change is grief. He stayed for 8 years and left shortly after Covid shutdowns in America subsided. He had no job lined up, was emotionally spent, and moved his whole family to Oxford to weather the liminal season. The breakdown of today's conversation is as follows: 0:48 Introductions 3:20 Church Community in denial of grief 6:31 Loss of Father and personal grief 9:21 Emotional Prosperity Gospel and space to grieve 11:07 Church decline, transition, and grief process 14:43 Power Broker, leadership, boundaries, restraining orders 19:09 Church planting vs Revitalizing 22:51 leaving my pastoral role, skipped sabatical 27:06 Covid, Burnout, Everything Changed 30:49 Trauma, Loss, and Nervous System 36:01 pastoral transitions 40:38 Community, friendship, support outside church 42:18 Vocational Confidence, God’s presence, theological uncertainty 46:44 Liminality and Transformation 50:15 Expectations vs Reality 53:28 Befriending death, mortality, change 57:08 Power, Politics, Ideology, and Anxiety in the Church 1:01:11 Superheroes of the Apocalypse 1:03:18 Liminal Living 1:08:30 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree: @axletree Voiceover for this episode is provided by Play.ht https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S3 E4: Tom Rundel: Why I Left Evangelicalism
Episode 4
S3 E4: Tom Rundel: Why I Left Evangelicalism
I get personal today on why I left the Evangelical stream of the faith, but also on why I am still a Christian and a pastor. We explore, historically, what an evangelical is, how fundamentalism took over and partnered itself as a political machine. So I share some of my points of departure, and then go on to share some points of consent, on why I am still in the Christian faith. I also share my vision for something different as a pastor and what I am up to in my neigborhood. Time Stamps for this episode: Time Stamps for the episode: 03:09 A Liminal Age 06:38 4 Characteristics of Evangelicals: 1. Biblicism 11:50 4 Characteristics: 2. Crucicentrism 3. Conversionism 16:55 4 Characteristics: 4. Activism 19:42 The Fundamentalist Shift 24:48 5 Pillars of Fundies: Inerrancy, Virgin Birth, Atonement 29:53 5 Pillars of Fundies: Bodily Resurrection, Historic Miracles 35:26 The Conservative Resurgence of the SBC 40:04 Points of Departure: Inerrancy = authoritarianism 45:32 Points of Departure: Evangelism = Theological Colonialism 49:51 Points of Departure: Hell is the central dogma 53:09 Points of Consent: Why I’m still Christian 58:51 Making Christianity huma again 1:03:09 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
Chronos Kairos, A Theology of Time 2
Episode 5
Chronos Kairos, A Theology of Time 2
Time may appear to be a bully and a tyrant. We say we do not have enough time in a day. But having a healthy relationship to time can help bring us into rhythm with heaven all around us, an attention to the present moment can free us from anxiety. https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E5: Aaron McConnell: Deconstructing From Fundamentalism
Episode 5
S2 E5: Aaron McConnell: Deconstructing From Fundamentalism
Today, I talk with Aaron McConnell, a long time friend from a previous church. He shares his experience growing up in a hyper fundamentalist Baptist church and school, where the Baptist Church down the street wasn’t fundamental enough. Also half way through Aaron turns the tables and interviews me unexpectedly about my deconstruction as a pastor and how I am doing church differently, to create safe spaces for those who are unsure of their faith. 0:48 Introduction 3:03 Not Fundie Enough for the Fundies 6:14 Jumping back into church 8:46 Planned Parenthood Protest 12:07 Guilt, Shame, Fear, the fundie toolbox 17:17 Humility from pain 21:03 “Sound of the Genuine” 22:21 Deconstruction and personal relationships 24:59 Inerrancy, Ideology, Covid Mandates 29:14 Deconstructing as a pastor, creating safe spaces 33:22 Weaponizing Dogma vs knowing you’re not infallible 38:29 A Different Church MO 40:26 Suffering “Breaks” your understanding of God 43:49 Scientific Revolution, Fundamentalist reaction, new church models 47:13 Benefits of a deconstructed pastor 50:23 Liminal Living tips 55:30 Courage to love 58:22 Fundamentalism: weaponized ideology 1:01:31 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree: @axletree Voiceover for this episode is provided by Play.ht https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S3 E5: Dr Tim Carson: This is Your Brain on Liminality
Episode 5
S3 E5: Dr Tim Carson: This is Your Brain on Liminality
Has deconstruction left you feeling isolated, anxious, and alone? Dr Tim Carson and I talk about the liminality of deconstruction, and how we are in a large collective “we” space of deconstruction, and the desperate need for liminal guides today. We also talk about the neurology of liminality and why it is so transformative. Timothy Carson is the curator of The Liminality Project. And has done Doctoral research and dissertation on Liminality. Tim is also the author of Liminal Reality and Transformational Power (2016), editor of the anthology Neither Here nor There: The Many Voices of Liminality (2019), co-author of Crossing Thresholds: A Practical Theology of Liminality (2021), editor of the anthology The Liminal Loop: Astonishing Stories of Discovery and Hope (2022), and editor of Leaning into the Liminal: A Guide for Counselors and Companions (2024). Tim continues to write, edit, blog, facilitate groups and seminars focused on liminality, and work with people making life’s great passages. Tim teaches a variety of liminality courses in the Honors College of the University of Missouri and is a TEDx speaker, presenting on themes of liminality. You can find Tim’s work here: https://www.theliminalityproject.org/ You can view Tim’s TEDx talk here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLaTOyVBdME Time Stamps for the episode: 02:43 The Tim and Tom Show 06:15 Liminal conversations around the world 10:33 Liminality and Pastoring 16:04 Liminality in Academia 19:21 Liminality in the Church 23:58 This is your brain on Liminality 29:12 Liminal competency in our leaders 34:48 Liminal journey to rebirth the “me” and “we” 39:45 COVID 19 and collective Liminality 44:43 Training Liminal guides in Ukraine 50:23 Liminal space of deconstruction 56:05 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
Theologian 1
Episode 6
Theologian 1
What does it mean to be a theologian? Many people have an understanding of theologian as someone who can logically systemetize doctrinal points into a bullet proof statement. But traditionally this is not the meaning of theologian, we explore the roots of this word: theologian, from its pagan origins to its Christian application. https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E6: Tom Rundel: Deconstructing "Eternal Life"
Episode 6
S2 E6: Tom Rundel: Deconstructing "Eternal Life"
What does a theology of Eternal Life really look like? If you've deconstructed the idea that you need to pray a magic Jesus prayer to go to heaven when you die, what do you do with the concept of Life Eternal? In this solo recording from a teaching at my church I go into what eternal life is and is not. All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree: @axletree Voiceover for this episode is provided by Play.ht https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S3 E6: Dr Jonathan Foster: Liminal Space of Grief After You Lose a Child
Episode 6
S3 E6: Dr Jonathan Foster: Liminal Space of Grief After You Lose a Child
9 years ago, Jonathan watched from his picture window as a law enforcement officer drove up his driveway to give him the devastating news that his 20 year old daughter was killed in a car crash. His family has been in the Liminal space of grief ever since. He wrote a book about his grief entitled, indigo, the color of grief. This work guides our discussion today. And yes, I cried. Dr Jonathan Foster is a writer at heart. He writes books, podcasts, and blog posts. He is an author of 5 books, and he helps other authors make books at SacraSagePress. He is involved with the open table network, which provides ordination credentials to progressive religious leaders. And he loves hiking in the Rocky Mountains. You can find Jonathan’s podcast here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/jonathan-foster/id1479338607 You can find Jonathan’s work here: www.jonathanfosteronline.com Please go buy Jonathan’s book here: https://www.amazon.com/indigo-color-Jonathan-J-Foster/dp/1737664968 Time Stamps for the episode: 03:30 Thin spaces as Liminal spaces 07:15 Early faith roots run deep 11:18 Wandering in Liminal spaces 17:07 The potency of poetry in liminal spaces 20:39 Encountering cliche after tragedy 23:48 Somatically processing grief 29:23 What grief feels like 34:59 Grief strips you down to simplicity 39:11 Offering solutions vs solidarity 44:35 Your presence becomes a threat to theology 48:58 Hope and Optimism, Cynicism and Faith 54:46 God does not exist, God insists 59:03 A new way of thinking about God is needed 1:04:22 Beauty as Defiance 1:08:13 Conclusion All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
Theologian 2
Episode 7
Theologian 2
Does your doctrine sound like a lawyer wrote it? What is doctrine and what is it for? We explore the roots of what doctrine means in the Old Testament, New Testament, and early church. https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E7: Zack Hunt: Deconstructing the Bible
Episode 7
S2 E7: Zack Hunt: Deconstructing the Bible
Today, I talk with author, writer, and doodle lover, Zack Hunt about his new book, Godbreathed. He shares his experience of the Nazarene Church, watching TV preacher Jack Van Impe, going to Bible college and getting hit with an academic approach to the Bible which gave him more questions than he was comfortable with. This deconstruction led him to write his first book Unraptured and as he further processed his faith he wrote Godbreathed to help people process what the Bible is and what it is not. He is a wonderful human being and I had a lot of fun chatting with him. You can find Zack’s book: https://rb.gy/5skge and https://rb.gy/n0lck You can find Zack at www.Zackhunt.net and https://substack.com/@zackhunt Below are the topics and time stamps of the issues we cover which includes, 1:47 Introduction 5:08 Puppies and dog lovers 6:20 His anti-fundie billboards around Nashville 8:30 Deconstructing Jack Van Impe, Unraptured 11:49 Voices of Guidance, Rachel Held Evans 15:11 Why he wrote Godbreathed, permission to question 19:48 Loving Scripture vs Worshiping scripture, subjectivity vs objectivity, humanity and divinity, control vs faith 26:38 the Bible as the story of God’s people told by God’s people vs History of God’s people written by God. 29:40 Finding the meaning of the Bible worthy of the God it describes, Origen and allegory. 33:20 Paul was wrong about slavery 36:05 Infallibility vs Heliocentrism, homosexuality, 37:53 History of the Fundie takeover: Pulpits, Publishers, and the Presidency 42:51 Decline of fundamentalist institutions, pastor shortage, young people exodus, same sex marriage 47:40 Inerrancy as White Supremacy and Patriarchy. 51:36 Bible as Myth, making space at the table for different views 58:39 Sola scriptura and drunk, constipated Luther 1:02:06 conformity, younger generations, MLK, justice, silent white moderate 1:06:43 Quiet quitting pastors, Trumpism, Black Lives Matter 1:10:37 The American Church is dead, now what? 1:15:05 Liminal Living when you’re excommunicated 1:18:56 Conclusion All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree: @axletree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S3 E7: Jason and Lori Adams-Brown: Interpreting Preda-Pastors Controlling Narratives
Episode 7
S3 E7: Jason and Lori Adams-Brown: Interpreting Preda-Pastors Controlling Narratives
How can you identify the narratives used by high control pastors to maintain control? In this episode of the Liminal Living podcast, we talk with Jason and Lori Adams-Brown. With extensive backgrounds in intercultural studies, trauma care, and missionary work, Jason and Lori offer invaluable insights into the insidious nature of spiritual abuse within religious communities. Drawing from their own experiences of navigating abusive environments, they shed light on the subtle ways in which abusive leaders manipulate narratives to maintain power and control. Through candid conversation, Jason and Lori provide interpretations of common phrases used to gaslight congregants and shield abusive pastors from accountability. From "We are praying for the pastor" to "We need to change our judgemental thinking," they provide a Google translate version of the gaslighting Christian language, enabling listeners to recognize the reality behind the rhetoric. Moreover, the episode explores the dynamics of faith, career, and personal growth, offering a beacon of hope amidst the darkness. As Jason and Lori share their journey of speaking out against pastoral abuse and advocating for victims, they invite listeners to join them in fostering genuine inclusion, justice, and belonging within religious communities. Tune in to discover how to connect with their work and find hope in a world marred by spiritual exploitation. You can find Lori’s podcast here: https://www.aworldofdifferencepodcast.com/ You can contact Jason here: jasonadamsbrown73 (at) gmail (dot) com Time Stamps for the episode: 05:50 Mojitos and Pictionary 10:05 Southern Baptist Roots 13:50 The Conservative Resurgence 18:14 Disillusionment sets in (Jason) 23:56 Being a woman in the SBC 30:51 Preda-pastors and the narratives they weave 36:24 Gaslighting the community 40:34 “We are praying for the pastor” 46:11 “There are people out to get him” 51:54 “They are trying to build their career” 57:15 Protecting metrics 1:00:50 “Dont judge, who hasn’t sinned?” 1:06:11 One way grace, up to the leader 1:10:22 What gives Lori hope 1:15:07 What gives Jason hope 1:17:36 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
Advent(ure) 1 Hope A Theology Of Color
Episode 8
Advent(ure) 1 Hope A Theology Of Color
The definition of hope is found neither in pessimism nor optimism, but in a "theology of color." Check out the latest #LiminalLiving podcast to see how. https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E8: Jacci Turner: Deconstruction as an Essential Stage of Faith Formation
Episode 8
S2 E8: Jacci Turner: Deconstruction as an Essential Stage of Faith Formation
What if deconstruction is not always losing faith? What if it can be a natural part of the faith journey that modern churches merely don’t have space for? Today, I talked with Therapist, Counselor, Campus minister, and Author, Jacci Turner about her new book: Tumbled People: Deconstructing and Reconstructing your faith. This book promises that you will find hope and encouragement for the spiritual changes you are going through, for they are a normal part of the stages of spiritual growth and development. What stage are you at? Listen in and find out. You can find Jacci’s book: https://rb.gy/haobk and https://rb.gy/osbg5 You can find Jacci at www.jacciturner.com Below are the topics and time stamps of the issues we cover which includes, 2:05: Introductions and Faith Roots 5:40: The first domino that sent her into deconstruction 10:03: Shalom, the Bible’s word for Salvation, Justice, Peace 11:50: Intro to the six stages of faith formation 15:40: Making space for deconstruction in organizations 21:14: Stage 1 Trusting openness of a child 24:39: Stage 2 Black and White rule keeping 25:22: Stage 3 Building scaffolding 28:41: Hitting the Wall 31:25: Getting through the Wall 37:23: Stage 4 Deconstructing 43:51: Stage 5 A bigger basket to hold more views 47:16: Cleansing the lenses we use to read and interpret 54:01: Stage 6 One heart and one will 55:31: Dark night, burnout, deconstruction, the wall 1:00:37: Tumbled People, a guide to deconstruction 1:03:19: Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree: @axletree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S3 E8: Dr David Fitch: Church on the Wrong side of Power
Episode 8
S3 E8: Dr David Fitch: Church on the Wrong side of Power
S3 E8: Dr David Fitch: Church on the Wrong Side of Power What happens when the church uses the power of the world to accomplish the purposes of God? You get the Church on the wrong side of power, with a reckoning that needs to take place. Today I talk with David Fitch about his new book, Reckoning with Power, Why the Church Fails when it’s on the Wrong Side of Power. In this work he describes three kinds of power the world uses, and contrasts it with the kind of power that God has. Indeed this is a reckoning of power moment, and Fitch’s book is a wonderful guide. Trigger warning, while our conversation spans theology, politics, culture, and ecclesiology, and made my brain explode a few times, we do talk about modern political figures and events openly. Fitch has been a pastor for 30 years, planting 9 churches, he is the Chair of Evangelical Theology at Northern Seminary Chicago, IL where he runs a few of their doctoral and masters programs. He is the author of many books, a writer for Missio Alliance, a blogger, and a cohost of the Theology on Mission podcast. You can purchase Fitch’s new book here: https://rb.gy/3k9zlc You can find Fitch’s podcast here: https://rb.gy/9ycm3m You can subscribe to Fitch’s substack here: https://davidfitch.substack.com/ Time Stamps for the episode: 02:31 Call me Fitch 08:17 My second conversion 15:12 A different kind of power 20:45 4 kinds of power 26:16 Using worldly power for God’s purposes 29:38 The temptation of authoritarian leaders 34:41 Why January 6th was not a wake up call 40:40 Sequestering God’s power to the inner life 45:41 Promised land nationalism vs Acts ecclesiology 51:29 When worldly power mixes with theology 57:07 Politics and the pulpit 1:01:55 Weaponized ideas 1:06:36 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
Advent(ure) 2 A Picture Of Hope
Episode 9
Advent(ure) 2 A Picture Of Hope
In John 2, did Jesus turn the water from the religious basins into wine? I do not think so. He did something greater to which this points. I explore this story in relation to its Old Testament roots in Isaiah. Check it out. https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E9: Dr Dave Beach: Deconstructing from Suffering
Episode 9
S2 E9: Dr Dave Beach: Deconstructing from Suffering
Dr Dave Beach lost his wife to cancer, and it triggered a deconstruction of his assumptions about the world. He found out that the propositions he claimed were not embedded deep in his own soul. He went on a journey to make sense of this event in light of his faith and eventually wrote a dissertation on the topic of Christianity and suffering with the hopes of meeting people at the intersection of their faith and suffering with hospitality and care. Dave is a retired counselor, college teacher, a current author, speaker, chaplain, and spiritual formation presenter, as well as an executive director of Four Health Family Resource Center Inc, in Saranac MI. You can find Dave’s book here: https://rb.gy/9ri2p and You can Dave’s Dissertation here: https://digitalcommons.georgefox.edu/dmin/281/ Below are the topics and time stamps of the issues we cover which includes, 2:23: Introductions 6:05: Faith Roots 8:11: Bad Songs that shaped his theology and expectation 10:23: “Faith” insulating us from reality 12:34: The First domino of deconstruction: Congregation vs my Dad 17:11: Power dynamics in churches 19:16: Pastoral Authority 22:43: A dissertation to make space for those who suffer 27:00: Jesus, the Man of Sorrows 31:50: Losing my wife to cancer 36:31: Trauma: shattering the assumptive world 39:00: Doubt, struggle, unbelief, AS a form of faith 43:46: The Role of God within suffering: Incarnation and Trinity 48:55: Suffering leads to awakening, but what about trauma damage? 54:51: Post Traumatic Growth 59:28: 5 Views of suffering in the Christian journey 1:04:47: Spiritual bypassing, disassociation, and transcendence 1:10:24: Suffering as initiation into reality, and God 1:12:39: Labels vs essence. Christian as noun and not adjective 1:19:18: Suffering dissolving illusion, bringing us into contact with reality 1:24:15: How is my faith more than a set of propositions? 1:25:49: Hope is not an emotion but an imagination 1:28:19: Conclusion All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree: @axletree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S3 E9: Dr Andrew M Davis: Philosophy, Theology, and Alien Life
Episode 9
S3 E9: Dr Andrew M Davis: Philosophy, Theology, and Alien Life
S3 E9: Dr Andrew M Davis: Philosophy, Theology, and Alien Life If our theological framework was developed in medieval times under an earth centric understanding of the universe, how does that change with the discovery of near infinite galaxies out there? What does a Christian faith look like that is not earth centric or human centric? What does that do to the doctrine of the incarnation; God becoming human? If intelligent alien life made itself known to us, what theologies would go out the window? Today we talk with Dr Andrew M. Davis, American process philosopher, theologian, and scholar of cosmological wonder. He is program director for the Center for Process Studies where he researches, writes, teaches, and organizes conferences on various aspects of process-relational thought. He has written many academic articles and books, and we talk about his book Metaphysics of Exo-Life: Toward a Constructive Whiteheadian Cosmotheology. But don’t let that title scare you away. This is one of the most fun conversations I have had. It felt like talking theology and philosophy with one of my favorite Science Fiction authors. You can purchase Andrew’s new book here: https://rb.gy/2ou2fs You can find Andrew’s work here: https://www.andrewmdavis.info/ Time Stamps for the episode: 03:54 Beer and Philosophy 07:32 Evangelical and academic roots 12:37 Turning points in faith 18:13 Expanding theology to fit the larger cosmos 22:36 Medieval theology in a modern context 26:55 Getting creative with contextualizing theology 31:35 What happens to certain theology if alien life is discovered? 37:44 Decentering our world / recentering our experience 43:03 The Church’s severe humbling through science 48:32 The world as verb instead of noun 54:37 Re-enchanting our modern world 1:01:34 incarnation and un-centering humanity from cosmology 1:08:45 Shift from instrumental value to Intrinsic 1:15:10 Spirituality as bridge between theory and practice 1:18:51 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E10: Rohadi Nagassar: Race and Deconstructing Whiteness
Episode 10
S2 E10: Rohadi Nagassar: Race and Deconstructing Whiteness
Today I talk to Rohadi Nagassar about his newest book “When We Belong. Reclaiming Christianity on the Margins.” from Herald Press. Rohadi writes and speaks on the topics of decolonizing, liberation, and deconstructing western Christianity. And today we talk about just that, focusing in on talking about Deconstructing white supremacy and whiteness from our faith. He has planted two churches including an inner-city multi-ethnic expression called Cypher Church. He has also written extensively in the areas of missions and church leadership including his book, “Thrive. Ideas to lead the church in post-Christendom”. Rohadi lives in Canada, on Treaty 7 Lands, otherwise known as Calgary, and holds a Business Certificate from Mount Royal College, a BA in Economics from the University of Calgary, and a Master of Divinity from Canadian Theological Seminary. His experience includes non-profit work in both governance and organizational development. He is the past-chair of ACT Alberta, one of the largest anti-human trafficking NGOs in Canada. He’s also a director with Mosaic Ministries. Rohadi’s private sector experience includes running his marketing consultancy firm for over 20 years. Listen to his podcast: Faith in a Fresh Vibe: https://www.rohadi.com/podcast/ Website: www.rohadi.com Twitter: @rohadi Instagram: @rohadi.nagassar His books: shop.rohadi.com Time Stamps for the episode: 2:05: Tell me about your people 7:05: Finding the roots of our people before assimilation 10:40: Genetic and Generational residual trauma 14:52: “Faith roots: the only people of color in a white evangelical church 17:51: What ain’t right: White supremacy 22:29: Finding Belonging 25:35: What is actually happening in deconstruction 31:39: naming the powers of white-ness 37:42: White-ness IS the water we all swim in 44:04: White folks can find their people and roots too 47:04: White Folks roots can depolarize us from white-ness politics 49:08: Wholistic Belonging: Self, Community, Land, God 53:27: Assimilation vs Belonging 58:30: Attempts at diversity 1:03:00: Four Pillars of White Supremacy 1:06:09: Shifts in society toward Post Christian 1:11:16: Liminal Living Practices All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree: @axletree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S3 E10: Josh Patterson: Mysticism, Spiritual Evolution, Merton
Episode 10
S3 E10: Josh Patterson: Mysticism, Spiritual Evolution, Merton
What happens when you get two deconstructed pastors in a zoom conversation together? A talk that spans from Thomas Merton’s mysticism, faith evolution, open and relational theology, Christian nationalism, and beer. Today’s conversation is the sharing of two deconstruction journeys and the evolution of faith that took place. Today we talk with Josh Patterson, who runs the (Re)thinking Faith Podcast which explores Christianity and spirituality from a progressive, deconstructed perspective. Coming from an evangelical background, Patterson interviews guests from various faiths and backgrounds to have honest dialogues about questioning long-held Christian beliefs, the intersection of faith and reason, finding meaning outside rigid doctrines, and reconstructing one's spiritual worldview with integrity. Through storytelling, Bible analysis, and respectful discourse, the podcast aims to create a space for those rethinking, doubting, or evolving their faith to engage with the doubts, struggles, and spiritual evolutions many go through. You can find the (Re)thinking Faith podcast here: rb.gy/ong4jw Also Josh’s patreon is here: https://www.patreon.com/RethinkingFaith Time Stamps for the episode: 03:54 Beer 09:46 Kicked out of church 14:02 Evolution of faith and practice 18:45 A mystical experience 23:11 Open and relational theology saved me 27:31 trusting our own experience 31:37 Thomas Merton saved me 37:58 How mystics saved the Church 43:19 Hope, optimism, cynicism and despair 48:53 F#!@, I’m still a Christian 52:43 Voices on the Margins 59:07 Christian nationalism All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E11: Kevin Sweeney: The Joy of Letting Go
Episode 11
S2 E11: Kevin Sweeney: The Joy of Letting Go
Today I talked to Kevin Sweeney about his newest book “The Joy of Letting Go…,” eventually we got there, at least. First we talk about a lot of amazing things, his journey as a teenager using psychedelic mushrooms and meeting God, his journey into Bible College, his deconstruction from that understanding and into Black Womanist Liberation Theology. Kevin is a wise man with a unique journey, and that makes it hard to sum up our conversation in a paragraph. Kevin was co-founder and lead pastor of Imagine Church in Honolulu for almost ten years, He was co-founder of the Honolulu based creative collective The (un)Commons, He has also organized and taught multiple Enneagram Experience events in Hawai’i and California, he helped lead “Saying Grace,” a curated gathering of dinners and stories between the church and the LGBTQ community in Honolulu. He is the host of podcast “The Church Needs Therapy” and is a best selling author. His two books are “The Making of a Mystic: My Journey with Mushrooms, My Life as a Pastor, and Why It’s Okay For Everyone to Relax,” and “The Joy of Letting Go.” He currently lives and surfs In Honolulu with his wife and co-founder of Imagine, Christine, and their two kids, True and Mikayla. Listen to his podcast: https://rb.gy/iwemt Website: www.https://www.kevinsweeneynow.com/ His on Amazon: https://rb.gy/3i8sh Time Stamps for the episode: 2:19: Faith Roots and leaving the Catholic Church 7:48: Meeting God on Psychedelic Mushrooms, and an existential crisis 13:02: The search for what’s real, not just what’s right 18:09: Building a system of Belief at Bible College, then “going emergent” 22:53: A call to be a pastor and not knowing what that meant 27:35: The Summer of Emergent 33:11: Finding truth in Black Womanist Liberation Theology 38:16: Voices who shape us along the journey, stages of beleif 45:07: Voices from higher up the mountain speaking to us at different stages in different ways 51:17: Writing The Joy of Letting Go 57:29: Letting go is not spiritual bypassing but walking the paschal mystery 1:03:13: The Gospel narratives of Letting Go. 1:08:25: We don’t want to wake up 1:10:18: Conclusion All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree: @axletree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S3 E11: Trey Ferguson: Theologizin Bigger
Episode 11
S3 E11: Trey Ferguson: Theologizin Bigger
Have you ever felt like your faith tradition put you in a box, stifling your curiosity and ability to ask real questions? If so, then you'll want to hear this interview with author Trey Ferguson. Trey's book "Theologizin Bigger" takes a refreshing look at how to "theologize" - to wrestle with faith and theology in an embodied way that embraces mystery, questioning, and diverse perspectives. In our conversation, Trey unpacked how the Western evangelical desire for a uniform, objective understanding of faith has alienated and dismissed voices from the margins. He made an insightful distinction between merely studying theology as an expert versus the active, effortful work of "theologizing." Trey also painted a powerful picture of Pentecost as the antidote to the Tower of Babel - where the miracle was the ability for truth to be expressed in many languages, not conformity to one standard. With wisdom and lyrical profundity, he issued a call to hold a non-polarized space that allows both questioners and doctrinal guardians to learn from each other's perspectives. Trey's work is an inspiring vision for how to engage faith with intellectual humility while reclaiming our God-given curiosity. Trey Ferguson, is a pastor, podcaster, and public theologian who likes playing with words. Whether it be with tweets, videos, essays, sermonic presentations, Bible studies, podcasts, or speaking engagements, he’s always trying to provoke an image in a seeker with some combination of words.. You can find Trey’s book here: https://rb.gy/s3tzca You can connect to Trey’s many other works here: https://www.pastortrey05.com/ Time Stamps for the episode: 02:46 Sports Dad 08:23 Trey’s soil his life grew from 13:29 Faith Evolution 18:15 Theologizin breaks a sweat 22:35 Theology that works in real life 26:59 Shrinking churches with taller walls 33:09 Inerrancy as white supremacy 38:06 Spiritualizing our problems 43:03 A humble hermeneutic of love 48:29 Weaponizing our ideas 51:20 Pentecost diversity vs Evangelical uniformity 57:20 Prioritize participation not objectification All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E12: Ask Me Anything Pt 1: Suffering Edition
Episode 12
S2 E12: Ask Me Anything Pt 1: Suffering Edition
Today I asked many of you to submit your questions to me for an Ask Me Anything episode, and I was absolutely shocked at the amount of questions I received. I have four pages of your questions, and today I took on four of them. #1 from Paul: How do you recognize God during deconstruction when God seems to have completely disappeared? #2 from Scott: When there are tragedies in people's lives, what other things can we genuinely say to them other than “we are praying for you”, or “it’s all in Gods plan” that will be helpful in their situation? #3 from Lance: The problem of evil; "If there is a loving God, then why does He allow bad things to happen?" #4 Tim: When you have gone through your toughest season(s), what was your spiritual "North Star?" Along the same lines... what was your biggest fear during that season? And along the same lines... where were you most misunderstood? Time Stamps for the episode: 0:45: Introduction 2:41: Paul: Finding God’s presence during a Deconstruction of irreconcilable ideas 12:28: Paul: Finding God’s presence during Deconstruction in a Season of Suffering 19:37: Paul: Finding God’s presence during Deconstruction due to abuse 25:42: Paul: Finding God’s presence during a Deconstruction of Dark Night of the Soul 30:53: Scott: The best thing to say when someone is suffering, anxiety dumping is not it 38:47: Lance: If God is all powerful AND all loving, why is there suffering? 49:08: Tim: During a season of suffering what was your North Star? 58:19: Tim: During a season of suffering how were you misunderstood and what was your greatest fear? 1:02:28: Outro All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree: @axletree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S3 E12: Matthew Paul Turner: Finding Belonging after deconstruction
Episode 12
S3 E12: Matthew Paul Turner: Finding Belonging after deconstruction
Have you struggled with finding community and belonging after deconstruction? Many do, because you are in a liminal space of development, unsure of who you are, what you believe, and therefore, who your people are. Matthew Paul Turner, no relation to Tina, has been on a journey of belonging that he illustrates with a new Children’s book, You Will Always Belong. Matthew takes deep spiritual truths around the concept of identity and makes them accessible to children, and therefore, that inner child in you that desires to belong. The starting place: learn to belong to yourself so that you know what people it is safe to belong to. Matthew Paul Turner has traveled the globe as a photographer, journalist and humanitarian documentarian. But he has truly made his mark in the world of children's literature. The #1 New York Times bestselling author brings an unmatched gift for rhyme and powerful storytelling to his inspiring books for young readers. Whether documenting the struggles of impoverished communities through his non-profit work or capturing the stunning visuals of National Geographic's "The Story of God" series with Morgan Freeman, Turner has a keen eye for narratives that reveal the full depth of the human experience. With deliberate messages of hope, empowerment and unlocking the resilience of the spirit, his children's books blend lyrical prose with lessons that will captivate young minds. From the realities he's witnessed globally to the imaginations he aims to spark, Turner is a versatile storyteller using his talents to craft transformative tales for all ages. You can find Mattthew’s book here: https://rb.gy/95yd5a You can connect to Matthew’s many other works here: https://matthewpaulturner.com/ Time Stamps for the episode: Time Stamps for the episode: 02:46 Beard Talk 06:43 Teenage Drivers 11:43 Matthew the Author 17:19 Writing children’s books for adults 23:29 Hurricane Katrina and shifting politics 29:45 The primacy of compassion 33:56 Changing political camps 38:57 Church as priest of capitalism 44:12 The violence of converting and convicting 49:26 The American Church needs humbling 55:56 Finding belonging 1:01:03 You belong, you do. All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2: E13: Ask Me Anything: Spiritual Practice Edition
Episode 13
S2: E13: Ask Me Anything: Spiritual Practice Edition
Today I asked many of you to submit your questions to me for an Ask Me Anything episode, and I was absolutely shocked at the amount of questions I received. I have four pages of your questions, and today I took on four of them. #1 from Joseph: Do I have to love myself in order to have a relationship with God or to love God? #2 from Jason: How does one "grow in their faith?" #3 from Jacki: What is the point of praying on behalf of someone? Does a person/s praying for someone bring them to the attention of God and he gives them grace, protection, or healing? My thought is that God is already taking care of that person and has them on his radar. It just doesn’t seem like we need to remind God to have grace or mercy on an individual. #4 from Jeremie: Do you think the current interpretation of prayer in modern Christianity is lost in translation? Meaning instead of asking an omnipotent spirit in the sky for favors, prayer is intended to be a time of meditation and introspection, maybe similar to meditative practices in other religious traditions. #5 from Jason: Is there a difference between Christian meditation and meditation in other religions? #6 from Tim: - If you could give spiritual advice to your 20 year old self, what would the most important thing you'd say? Time Stamps for the episode: 0:45: Introduction 3:45: The Revivalists Screwed with us 8:48: The Worst Sermon Ever Preached 13:53: Charles Finney Ruins Church 19:16: The Origin of “Backslider” Theology 26:13: Fostered Religious Anxiety 32:45: Stages of Love 37:57: Psychological Projection and Hate 42:43: 3 Dimensional Spiritual Growth: Discipleship 48:25: 3 Dimensional Spiritual Growth: Spiritual Formation, Contemplation 53:50: What Does Prayer Do? 1:01:44: Christian Meditation vs Other Religions 1:03:48: Advice I’d give my 20 year old self: Chill out All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree: @axletree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E13: Amy Fritz: Untangling Faith from the Evangelical Industrial Complex
Episode 13
S2 E13: Amy Fritz: Untangling Faith from the Evangelical Industrial Complex
Has your faith community become a breeding ground for spiritual abuse? Today I talk to Amy Fritz, host of the podcast "Untangled Faith," and we delve into the complexities of spiritual abuse within faith communities, drawing from her personal experiences and her husband's encounters while working for Dave Ramasey. Through occasional articles, Amy shares insights on faith, parenting, and simplifying life while fostering meaningful connections. In this insightful interview, she discusses pivotal moments in her faith journey, theological perspectives that reshaped her thinking, and sustaining practices that offer hope. Touching on topics like reorganized religion, abusive tactics, and the impact of the Evangelical industrial complex, Amy explores where the church could head in the next decade with honesty, humility, and openness. We also talk about failing religious leadership, and the transformation needed to address systemic issues within the church. You can find Amy’s blog here: http://amyfritzwrites.com/ You can connect to Amy’s podcast here: https://untangledfaithpodcast.com/ Time Stamps for the episode: 02:39 Network and Connections 06:56 Reorganized religion 11:25 The abuse of “convert and convince” tactics 16:38 Failing religious leaders 22:59 Allergic of pastoral “leadership” culture 29:19 Leadership corruption 33:22 The Evangelical industrial complex 38:03 untangling faith from Evangelical industrial complex 42:50 The apocalypse we find ourselves in 49:02 Asking: what can we own, and help make right? 54:30 Trying church again 59:13 Walmart-ization of western church 1:04:23 Cannibalizing mega church campuses All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2: E14: Tom Rundel: Mental Health and Meditation Edition
Episode 14
S2: E14: Tom Rundel: Mental Health and Meditation Edition
Today I asked many of you to submit your questions to me for an Ask Me Anything episode, and I was absolutely shocked at the amount of questions I received. I have four pages of your questions, and today I take on just one, but I do a deep dive into the world of mental health. While I am not a mental health expert, I have much work on the intersection of spirituality and mental health. So today we get very practical about how much of the Western Evangelical tradition does not equip us to handle things like trauma and stress, but instead increases it in many cases. So we take on the spiritual practice of meditation today, what happens physiologically and spiritually as we discuss Tim’s question: “How do you view the confluence of spirituality and mental health? In other words, what have you learned about how to navigate difficult seasons from both a spiritual perspective and a mental health perspective?” With a revisit and deep dive into Jason’s question: Is there a difference between Christian meditation and meditation in other religions? Time Stamps for the episode: 0:59: Introduction 2:57: Spirituality and Psychological Health 8:31: Self-Knowledge vs Self-Righteousness 14:36: Church only took me half way 19:50: Becoming Fully Human and Fully Alive 26:00: The Spirituality of the Nervous System 31:11: Evangelicalism stressed me out 36:44: The Spirituality of the Parasympathetic Nervous System 41:06: The Physiology of Meditation 46:05: The Unconscious Mind 51:06: 6 Forms of Christian Meditation: Lectio Divina, Visio Divina, Ignatian Exercises 56:36: 6 Forms of Christian Meditation: Centering Prayer, Mantra Prayer, Breath Prayer 1:00:18: Meditation of other faith traditions 1:02:11: Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree: @axletree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S3 E14: Justin Lee: Coming out as Gay in the Southern Baptist Church
Episode 14
S3 E14: Justin Lee: Coming out as Gay in the Southern Baptist Church
Have you ever been made the “prayer request” of a community because your story didn’t match the triumphal testimony narrative? Justin grew up in the Southern Baptist Church as a conservative labeled by his high school peers as “God boy.” He was handing out tracts, evangelizing, and really good at obeying purity culture rules when it came to women. Then he realized that he was gay. He went on a long journey of wrestling with faith and identity, and we talk about his story today. For over 25 years, Justin Lee has been a leading voice in navigating contentious issues with depth and empathy. As the author of "Talking Across the Divide: How to Communicate with People You Disagree With—and Maybe Even Change the World," his work has been adopted as a college textbook, guiding students through areas of disagreement. Beginning his journey in the 90s as a spokesperson for Bridges Across the Divide, Justin later founded a nonprofit dedicated to fostering dialogue within Christian communities on LGBTQ issues, gaining international recognition for his efforts. His bestselling book, "Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-vs.-Christians Debate," has solidified his reputation as a bridge-builder between progressives and conservatives. Justin's influence extends beyond his writing, as a co-host of three podcasts and a sought-after speaker featured in global media outlets. Now, he focuses on empowering individuals to apply strategic dialogue principles to diverse causes, maintaining a vibrant online presence through his YouTube channel and website at GeekyJustin.com. You can preorder Justin’s book here: https://geekyjustin.com/books/torn-v2/ You can connect to Justin’s YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/geekyjustin Time Stamps for the episode: 02:48 Boardgame Geekdom 08:04 Board games are like cosplay 11:54 Growing up Baptist 17:13 Coming out into a culture war 23:49 Slow realization, “I am gay.” 30:10 Making peace with new identity 35:03 Accepting that I can’t become straight 41:34 the danger of failed testimony to group narrative 48:43 Wrestling with the clobber passages 55:26 Asking the gay community to help with our theology 1:00:43 weaponizing truth claims 1:05:46 teaching the beginners 1:09:17 dialogue with those ideologically opposed to you All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E15: Caleb Jacobson: A Journey to Agnosticism
Episode 15
S2 E15: Caleb Jacobson: A Journey to Agnosticism
What happens when a pastor’s kid and a worship leader from a Marshill satellite in Seattle becomes an Agnostic? Today on the podcast I talk with long time friend, Caleb Jacobson. Caleb comes from a conservative evangelical background, is a pastor's kid in a family with a heritage of pastoral vocation. Caleb had an existential crisis with his faith, hit a reset button on belief, and reconstructed what he could. He left the pastorate and left the faith and became an Agnostic. I think that it is important to learn of all kinds of Liminal experiences and stories and practice empathy and understanding. I remain curious and ask questions seeking to understand Caleb’s perspectives and learn along the way. I hope you do as well. Time Stamps for this episode: 2:21: Introduction 4:18: Rockstar for Jesus 9:16: Working at Marshill 14:45: Cleaning the slate of all belief 19:36: Journeying toward Atheism, stopping at Agnosticism 24:08: Questioning the Christian Worldview indoctrination 28:05: Being Ok with the discomfort of unbelief 31:25: Why Atheism and not progressive Christianity? 36:22: Finding peace 41:05: Fear of Death and life eternal 46:53: What is life after death? 51:49: Liminal Living Practice of mindful meditation 56:02: How’d your family take this? 1:01:46 Conclusions https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S3 E15: Ally Henny: I Won't Shut Up
Episode 15
S3 E15: Ally Henny: I Won't Shut Up
"Have you ever wondered how one finds their voice in a world that often seeks to silence them? Today, we're diving deep into that question with author and advocate-minister Ally Henny, as we explore her journey of resilience, faith, and empowerment. Ally is the brilliant mind behind "I Won't Shut Up: Finding Your Voice When the World Tries to Silence You," a wonderful work that delves into the complexities of navigating societal pressures and finding one's voice amidst adversity. As the Vice President of The Witness: A Black Christian Collective, Ally is dedicated to empowering Black Christians toward liberation from racism, offering profound insights into the intersection of faith and social justice. Throughout our conversation, we'll journey through Ally's experiences and perspectives, exploring the differences of black and white Christian culture in this country, the effect it has on politics, economics, society, and religion. Also, Ally offers invaluable insights into the tensions of Black freedom and the complexities of navigating racial dynamics within church institutional spaces. So, grab a cup of something caffeinated if your nervous system allows, and settle in and prepare to be enriched by the wisdom and passion of Ally Henny. You can order Ally’s book here: rb.gy/3897bm You can connect to Ally’s Work here: allyhenny.com/ Time Stamps for the episode: 02:59 Water damage sucks 05:50 Soil of Rural Missouri 10:52 Black Baptist upbringing 16:33 Black liturgy 23:00 Black politics 28:33 White church culture shock 35:13 Barak Obama is not the anti-christ 40:18 My mama’s struggles 47:25 A constellation of harms 55:06 Trauma constellations and their narratives 1:01:59 White individualism 1:08:08 The mythology of meritocracy 1:15:22 Once you see how the sausage is made… 1:21:21 Civilized? 1:28:07 Long obedience in the same direction All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S3 E16: Chad Bahl: To Hell with Eternal Conscious Torment
Episode 16
S3 E16: Chad Bahl: To Hell with Eternal Conscious Torment
"Have you ever always hated the doctrine of eternal conscious torment but felt like it was too central to the faith to discard? Chad is the guy to talk to. Today we deconstruct the theology of ECT, discuss its origins, its evolution, and its future home in the proverbial lake of fire. We also discuss open and relational theology, evangelicalism, liminality, contemplation, and more views of the afterlife. It was an invigorating conversation that let me see that my academic mind can still come out and play every once in a while. Chad Bahl is a DThM candidate at Northwind Theological Seminary, studying under Dr Thomas Jay Oord, where he specializes in the study of Open and Relational Theology. He also has hosted a podcast series: Deconstructing Hell. And is the author of God Unbound: An Evangelical Reconsiders Tradition in Search of Truth, author/editor of Deconstructing Hell: Open and Relational Responses to the Doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, and author of the upcoming Mornings with Schleirmacher. You can order Chad’s books here: https://rb.gy/kvy57b You can connect to Chad’s Work here: https://www.facebook.com/chad.bahl https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E16: Lance Hough: The Abuse of Commodifying Creativity in Church
Episode 16
S2 E16: Lance Hough: The Abuse of Commodifying Creativity in Church
S2 E16: Lance Hough, The Abuse of Commodifying Creativity What happens when a church continually commodifies creativity for a Sunday morning experience? Today, I talked with a friend and former church creative director, Lance Hough. Lance experienced leadership abuse under a few different pastors that led to an existential crisis concerning his faith and how we experience it in a modern western church experience, and the eventual leaving of ministry and healing of trauma it caused. Lance is a creative individual, and many churches can take advantage of creatives and transform art into a religious commodity to be bought and sold and traded on a Sunday. It ends up being an abusive cycle for those who create and have a stunting effect on the maturity of the attendees who become religious consumers. Time Stamps for the episode: 2:08: Introduction 4:26: Faith roots 7:47: Serving in Church to Career in Church 11:32: How the Sausage is Made 15:51: Abusive Leadership 19:56: Crisis of Career 24:57: Questioning the Leadership and structure 29:42: A Beautiful New Community 35:07: A Fresh Start in Ministry 40:37: Existential Crisis of a Creative Leader’s Heart 46:06: Church Franchising 51:55: Putting the “Ass” in “P-ass-tor” 57:13: Losing Community Again 1:02:52 Commodifying Creativity 1:08:03 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree: @axletree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S3 E17: Tom Rundel: Arriving at 95% Certainty is Good Enough
Episode 17
S3 E17: Tom Rundel: Arriving at 95% Certainty is Good Enough
"Have you ever wondered how much of what you believe to be true is actually influenced by the quirks of your own mind? In this solo episode of the Liminal Living podcast, we delve into the fascinating realm of cognitive biases and their impact on our perception of reality. We use Brian McLaren’s list of 13 cognitive biases that cloud our judgment, revealing how they shape our understanding of truth and certainty. Through a philosophical lens, we examine the notion of absolute certainty, suggesting that acknowledging the presence of biases allows us to embrace uncertainty with an open hand. The path to truth lies not in clinging to a rigid sense of certainty, but rather in maintaining a humble acknowledgment of our own limitations. Truth can be best grasped in a mindset where being 95% sure of something allows room for the remaining 5% of uncertainty. Embracing this openness enables us to navigate the complexities of truth with greater clarity and humility. Ultimately, we hope this is a compelling invitation for you to examine your own biases and embrace a more nuanced understanding of reality. Because, the journey towards truth begins with an open hand. You can find Brian McLaren’s podcast on baises here: https://cac.org/podcasts/why-cant-we-see/ All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E17: Tom Rundel: Hell, Judgement, and Universal Reconciliation
Episode 17
S2 E17: Tom Rundel: Hell, Judgement, and Universal Reconciliation
Does hell exist? Who goes there? Does Matthew 13’s furnace reference talk about it? Today, I spout off about my views of hell, judgment, and justice. I share my thoughts around the passage from Matthew 13, commonly called the parable of the wheat and tares, where the wheat and tares are allowed to grow together until the end of the age when the wheat is harvested and put into a barn and the tares are gathered and burned in a furnace. Does this passage talk about hell? If yes, what does it mean? If not, how do we interpret it? I also go into the four classic views of hell, Eternal Conscious Torment, Annihilationism, Purgatorial, and Universal Reconciliation, and talk about where I land these days, why, and what it means for the lived experience of faith. Time Stamps for the episode: 0:40: Introduction 2:02: Matthew 13, weeds and wheat 3:08: Eternal Conscious Torment is the central dogma of fundamentalism 7:40: Judaistic Roots of Mattew 13 12:26: Agricultural Sabotage! 15:44: The Big Baddie in the Bible is not Satan, it’s Empire 20:49: The Kingdom of God is like… 7 different stories 26:14: Justice and Judgment 31:35: Hell and the end of the world 36:51: Gritty Justice in Matthew 42:01: The Daniel Reference in Matthew 13 45:07: 4 Views of Hell, 2 Views of Justice 51:48: Universal Reconciliation 55:52: Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree: @axletree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E18: Dan White Jr: Burnout, Ego, Inner Journey to Healing
Episode 18
S2 E18: Dan White Jr: Burnout, Ego, Inner Journey to Healing
Have you ever been burned out, had PTSD, had an existential crisis? So has our guest for tToday. I talked with Dan White Jr. a church planting strategist with the V3 Movement, co-founder of the Praxis Gathering, author of 4 books, pastor and Church planter for the last 20+ years, as well as co-founding and building The Kineo Renewal and Retreat Center in Puerto Rico from the ground up with his wife Tonya. Dan has a gentle soul with the gift of healing, which I experienced first hand at a retreat at Kineo. There he delivered his story of pastoring, burning out twice, dealing with CPTSD, struggling with his ego, and recovering to find new vision. He tells his story here today, as well as using his degree in counseling and theology to blend a helpful understanding of a pathway toward your healing. You can find all of Dan’s materials on his website www.danwhitejr.com Time Stamps for the episode: 2:20: Introduction 6:52: Deconstructing with Rich Mullins 11:55: Journey out of Fundie Baptist and into Anabaptist 17:17: Entering the Ministry 21:34: Experiencing Abuse and burnout in ministry 26:05: The inner work of Ego exploration 30:36: Diagnosed with CPTSD 36:04: Skimming the Ego with Howard Thurman 41:40: Cracking the Ego open for transformation 45:07: Jung’s 5 foundational needs of the ego 50:36: How to live in the liminal space of a healed ego and a broken world 55:12: Three responses from others to your true self 59:13: Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree: @axletree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E19: Tom Rundel: Don't Spiritualize Your Problems
Episode 19
S2 E19: Tom Rundel: Don't Spiritualize Your Problems
S2 E19: Tom Rundel: Don’t spiritualize your problems, claim your confidence Have you ever felt like God abandoned you and left you in the midst of a storm that you could not overcome? In this episode, I solo riff on Matthew 14’s account of Christ walking on the water and calming the storm. I take note of the parabolic writing style and use that knowledge to explore the meaning behind some of the imagery in this parable. Christ dismisses the disciples and they are battered by some wind and waves. Time Stamps for the episode: 0:44: Introduction 4:45: Matthew 14 and the parabolic style of this story 9:05 Dismissed and abandoned by God 13:25 spiritualizing your problems gets spiritual answers that don’t work in real life 17:42 Take courage is NOT dismiss your anxiety 21:56 Claim your inner authority 26:00 God is not a fixer of problems, but an empowerer of souls 30:22 The saving grace of community 33:13 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E20: Karl Forehand: From Fundie Baptist to Spiritual without Labels
Episode 20
S2 E20: Karl Forehand: From Fundie Baptist to Spiritual without Labels
S2 E20: Karl Forehand: From Fundie Baptist to Spiritual without Labels Often, church can become more about keeping the systems running smoothly, the people happily entertained, and money flowing into the plates. But what happens when you have to grieve or enter a season of suffering or become disabled? Karl Forehand is a former Southern Baptist Pastor and Church planter and revitalizer who went through a season of deconstruction shortly after the 2015 election cycle. He could no longer associate with a faith that was more about conservative politics, religious nationalism, and exclusion of the marginalized. He unlabeled himself, became open, and started to explore. Karl is author of 7 books, speaker, and podcaster. He and his wife, Laura, founded The Desert Sanctuary, a resting place for spiritual nomads. Karl was a bi-vocational pastor for 20 years and has training in spiritual leadership coaching, plant-based nutrition, and spiritual direction. He lives in Missouri with his wife Laura and dog Winston. He has three grown children and two grandchildren. Karl and Laura call Rock Port, MO their home. Karl, recently disabled, is recovering from a stroke. All of Karl’s works can be found here: https://rb.gy/pxczu Time Stamps for the episode: 00:41 Introduction 04:37 Baptist Fundie Roots 09:07 Deconstructing Religious Hate 13:19 Farewell to Hell 17:48 Investigating New Paths 22:52 Becoming who you already are 28:20 The Difference between “Here” and “present” 32:56 The Practice of Recollection 38:19 No space for grief 42:16 I lost my Dad, Karl had a stroke, an honest conversation 46:52 A world not built for disability is hard for us 51:47 Unintentionally slowing down because of disability 55:02 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E21: Tom Rundel: Ask Me Anything Bible Deconstruction
Episode 21
S2 E21: Tom Rundel: Ask Me Anything Bible Deconstruction
S2 E21: Tom Rundel: Ask Me Anything: Bible Deconstruction I solo riff on today’s pod and take on some more of the questions that y’all sent in as we talk about our approach to the Bible, how it has caused harm, and how we can change it going forward. The questions I take on are… Erica: Is the Bible meant to be read as a set-in-stone manual to be taken literally? Is it multiple genres, full of allegory? If literal, how are readers meant to adapt it to modern life? Jason: “If the Bible says all commandments boil down to love God and love neighbor as yourself why do churches seem to be focused more on do's and don’ts?” Jason: “Is hell real and does it matter?” Lance: What happens to people who never knew/heard about God when they die? Would a loving God punish someone for not accepting a truth they knew? What about babies/young children? Time Stamps for the episode: 00:41 Introduction 02:53 The Metaphysics of Elisha 06:43 Evangelicals and Conspiracy Theories 12:22 Left Behind was a Conspiracy Theory, not a theology 18:20 Authoritarian Leaders Capitalize on Conspiracy 21:48 Does all Scripture have Equal weight? 26:19 Erica’s Question 32:10 The Problem with Fundies 37:03 4 Principles for your ongoing relationship to the Bible 41:04 The Sound of the Genuine 43:15 Jason’s Question 47:36 Is the Church human or divine? Yes 53:45 Jason and Lance’s questions: Is Hell real? 59:15 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E22: Anthony Smith: Faith, Race, and Politics
Episode 22
S2 E22: Anthony Smith: Faith, Race, and Politics
Today I talk with Faith rooted organizer, Anthony Smith. Anthony headed up the removal and relocation of a Confederate Statue in his city of Salisbury, North Carolina. We talk about his faith, his work, for the poor and marginalized of his city from his position as a pastor and city council member. He is a man rooted in place and dedicated to seeing the Kingdom of God come about in his neighborhood. Time Stamps for the episode: 00:49 Introductions 02:39 Faith Rooted Organizer 07:04 Anthony vs Confederate Statue 11:56 An Ecumenical Exorcism of White Nationalism and Racism 17:10 An Apocalyptic moment and call 22:24 Christians call to apocalyptic action 27:15 Hyper individualism and its damage on society 33:33 The Gospel and White Jesus made an atheist 38:37 The Gospel evolve to meet us 43:50 White Christian Nationalism is a form of bad Atheism 47:53 Christianity as ideology for the nation state is bad news 52:15 A Heart attack and an existential crisis 57:35 The Sound of the Genuine 1:02:22 Don’t live apologetically 1:07:57 Pay attention and find purpose 1:13:27 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E23: Rev. Dr. Randy Woodley, Indigenous Spirituality and De-Colonizing Christianity
Episode 23
S2 E23: Rev. Dr. Randy Woodley, Indigenous Spirituality and De-Colonizing Christianity
What if the severe dogmatic cruelty of our modern expression of faith is an add on of Western Colonialism? What would happen if you started to pull on the thread of colonialism in your faith. What would come out? What would remain? Today I talk with Rev. Dr. Randy Woodley, an expert voice in the areas concerning spirituality, earth-care, racial and ethnic identity, diversity, peace, social justice, eco-justice, interreligious dialogue, Indigenous studies, agriculture, and spirituality. Randy is also co-founder and Program Director of the George Fox Master of Arts Intercultural Studies degree, the Eloheh Indigenous Center for Earth Justice and Eloheh Farm & Seeds. Author of 9 books, including An Indigenous theology and the Western Worldview, and host of the Peacing it all together podcast. He is a member of the Cherokee nation, and considers himself an indigenous person who follows Christ. We talk about his experiences as an indigenous person within the western church.To see Randy’s work, please visit his website: www.Randywoodley.com | www.Eloheh.org | www.elohehseeds.com Time Stamps for the episode: 00:43 Introductions 09:06 Cherokee roots 13:30 My Oppressive Missionary Colonizer Years 19:02 Colonialism woven into the Christian faith 22:37 The Violence of Christian Supremacy 28:06 Conservative politics picks up the torch of colonialism 31:45 The Problem of Disembodied Theology 36:55 Shalom and the Failed Western Experiment 42:20 Decolonizing the Faith 47:16 Colonial Theology that needs to Go: Hell, Exclusivity, and Original Sin 51:19 The Practice of Vulnerable Conversation 53:40 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E24: Matt Tebbe: Money, Power, and Abuse in the Church
Episode 24
S2 E24: Matt Tebbe: Money, Power, and Abuse in the Church
Why have we spiritualized so much of Jesus’ teaching on poverty, money, and forgiveness? It is the only way we could make sense of his teachings while wearing the insulation that power provides us. But what does Christ say about money and power? How have we harnessed what Jesus calls the god of mammon into our methodologies of modern church growth tactics? Today I talk with Matt Tebbe, an expert voice in the areas concerning mammon, which is the Bible’s word for the worship of the economy, colonial empire, authoritarian abuse, and patriarchy. Matt says hard things, but good things. His voice is honest and succinct. Matt Tebbe. holds a Masters of Divinity from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, has been featured in the pages of Leadership Journal and Shattered Magazine. Matt's insights are also featured in the book 'What Pastors Wish Their Congregations Knew,' authored by Kurt Fredrickson and Cameron Lee. He's also been a prominent voice in thought-provoking platforms such as Missio Alliance and The V3 Movement. Matt's collaborative spirit shines through his co-authorship of 'Having the Mind of Christ' alongside Ben Sternke which won the IVP Reader's Choice Award. Matt is more than just a writer and thinker. He's a practitioner of transformational leadership as the co-founder of Gravity Leadership, and he serves as the co-rector of an Anglican church plant known as 'The Table,' nestled in the northeast suburbs of Indianapolis. Join us today as we dive into Matt's journey and how he balances it all with his life alongside his wife Sharon and their children, Deacon and Celeste. To see Matt’s work, please visit his website: https://www.thetableindy.org/, https://gravityleadership.com/, https://substack.com/@matttebbe, Time Stamps for the episode: 00:52 Introductions 03:58 Climbing Mt. Whitney 08:56 Facing Internal Demons on the Mountain 14:04 Spiritual Roots in Catholicism 18:33 Grace in Community & Abuse on Church Staff 23:57 Abusive Leadership Embraces Power and Causes Trauma 30:18 Using Your Voice with Clarity and Humility 34:36 Spiritualizing the Poor is a Hermeneutic Mistake 40:17 The God of Mammon, Power, Money, and Economy 46:45 What “Love of Money” Actually Looks Like 51:47 Exposing Undercover Idolatry 57:08 Mammon’s Weapon is Fear of Death 1:00:50 What Really Causes Inflation 1:06:27 Gatekeepers of the Bible Don’t Actually Like the Bible 1:13:14 Mammon “Works” and Why We Can’t See It. 1:18:40 How to Love our Neighbor 1:21:11 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E25: Tom Rundel: Does God have a Gender, Karma, and more Science talk
Episode 25
S2 E25: Tom Rundel: Does God have a Gender, Karma, and more Science talk
Does God have a Gender? Is Karma real? What did the Bible say about Dinosaurs? And other fun questions in this ask me anything episode where I take on your theological questions: Scott: According to Christianity, the only way is through Jesus. According to another religion, the only way is through their belief system. How can we all be right? Does God give many paths that lead to him? Lance: How do we know which religion is right? And if Christianity is it, how do we know which version/interpretation is right? Rosey: If God created humans in his image, male and female, what does that actually mean? Is God not genderless? Wendi: What’s the deal with karma and the Christian faith? Nic: did the Creator create us individually or broad stroke? What level of detail went into His design? Lance: How does the Bible coexist with science? Time Stamps for the episode: 00:49 Introductions 05:48 The Benedictine Monk who taught me to meditate 11:10 Are there many paths to God? 16:23 Labels on something vs Essence of something 21:26 Love is the point and humility is the foundation 23:30 How do we know which religion is right? 28:42 Is God a man? 33:37 God as “the Father” 39:06 God as “the Mother” 44:43 Gender and the Incarnation 47:56 Karma and Buddhism 53:36 Karma’s 4 Noble Truths and 8 fold Path 57:33 Karma and Christianity 1:01:32 How does God “make” us and the world? 1:05:51 Are Dinosaurs in the Bible? 1:10:13 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E26: Kathy Khang: Finding a Home: Hospitality, Immigration, and Power in the Church
Episode 26
S2 E26: Kathy Khang: Finding a Home: Hospitality, Immigration, and Power in the Church
Who gets to decide the modern dogmas of who is in and who is out? Probably not the people Jesus would hang around with, marginalized communities. I have an honest and beautiful conversation with author Kathy Khang today about her experience as a Christian in America who immigrated from Korea. And she highlights things from that perspective that I had a hard time seeing from my perspective. Our guest today is Kathy Khang, a mother of three, wife of one, and a passionate advocate for embracing the complexities of identity, spirituality, and social justice. Kathy's story is one of transformation and empowerment, rooted in her love for Jesus and a deep appreciation for the simple joys of life, like yoga, nail polish, lipstick, and the bond she shares with her girlfriends. Kathy's journey as a writer, speaker, coffee enthusiast, and even a yoga teacher has taken her from the pages of childhood diaries to newsrooms and co-authored books. Her next book co-authored with Matt Mikalatos is called Loving Disagreement which is about how to sustain community in a polarized society. It landed on Englewood Book Review’s list of most anticipated books of 2023. She is also a co-host of The Fascinating Podcast which is on season 11 now. With over two decades of experience in parachurch ministry, working with college students and training leaders, Kathy has been a force for change, encouraging others to find and use their voices to bring about positive transformation. Her recent book, "Raise Your Voice: Why We Stay Silent and How to Speak Up," inspires everyone to embrace their influence and work toward creating a more just and compassionate world. So, join us today as we dive deep into Kathy Khang's inspiring journey of using one's voice to shape a better future. Time Stamps for the episode: 00:40 Introductions 03:52 Good Coffee 09:09 Spiritual Roots in the Korean Church in Chicago 13:44 Renting church space and false hospitality 18:31 Rethinking Hospitality as the Church 21:58 Loving Disagreement what it is and is NOT 27:04 Love is not nice 32:01 Toxic Positivity 36:45 The Moving Goalposts of expectation 41:47 False apostolic authority used to create exclusive dogma 44:12 What loving your enemy can look like 48:31 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E27: Tom Rundel: The Bible Says... Why I don't say that anymore
Episode 27
S2 E27: Tom Rundel: The Bible Says... Why I don't say that anymore
Have you ever had someone use the phrase, “Well, the Bible says…” to correct you? But then they dismiss other things the Bible says with a “yeah, but…” Who we offer our “yeah but” comments to and who we hard line with “the Bible says” reveals more about the one using the phrase than it does the Bible. Today I talk about why I no longer use the phrase, “The Bible says…” and how it is often a signal of a theology that is static, exclusive, elitist, or abusive. This summarizes some of the things I learned from the last 4 interviews I did. To get there we meander through the historical narrative flow of the old and new testaments. So if you have ever struggled to make sense of what the Bible is saying, and why, it might help to understand the story. Time Stamps for the Episode: Time Stamps for the episode: 00:40 Introductions 01:54 I Don’t say, “The Bible Says” anymore 05:38 The Tabernacle Narrative 09:31 Kings and Temples Narrative 12:19 Babylon, Persia, and Greece! Oh My! 16:29 Rome, Herod, and Second Temple 19:41 It’s the end of the world as we know it 22:27 Theology: Our static Temple 27:54 Theology: our elitist and and exclusive Temple 33:02 Theology: our abusive Temple 34:56 LGBTQ+ texts vs Greed, Power, Corruption texts 37:42 Abusive Church Growth Tactics 43:30 The Bible says, says more about you than the Bible 46:52 Tables instead of Temples 52:44 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E28: Kate: When a Pastor/Husband is a Predator: Trauma, abuse, and Healing
Episode 28
S2 E28: Kate: When a Pastor/Husband is a Predator: Trauma, abuse, and Healing
A pastor who had 12 victims over the course of 20 years is found out. The patriarchal leadership of the church wants to sweep it all under the rug quickly. But *Kate, who happens to be married to this pastor, says “No!” She is not allowed to lead in this culture in spite of being the greatest leader in the room with the best plan, so she decides to take matters into her own hands. This is her story of trauma, tragedy, reconciliation, and healing. *Kate is not her real name, but a pseudonym to protect her from ongoing abusive actions of former church leaders and former husband. Time Stamps for the episode: 00:48 Introductions 02:30 Breckie in Australia with a Cuppa 03:58 Protecting her Anonymity 06:29 Inoculation makes you blind to abuse 11:14 Rebuilding the soul after recognizing abuse 15:36 The Truth comes out 20:32 Seeking to hold him accountable 25:48 Abusive patriarchy favors the abusive man 30:14 Reconciliation begins… but not with him 34:49 Rebuilding a life 37:17 Learning self-care and boundaries after helping everyone else 41:59 The Healing journey begins 47:08 “Gospeling the Heart” 50:03 “The Father Heart of God” 54:26 Somatic Bodily Practices for Healing 57:59 Healing Non-sexual touch 1:02:34 Healing of song, sound, and puppies 1:05:52 You cannot think your way into trauma healing 1:08:14 Conclusions https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E29: Deb Gregory: Ignatian Spirituality, Disability in the Church, Living Liminally
Episode 29
S2 E29: Deb Gregory: Ignatian Spirituality, Disability in the Church, Living Liminally
What happens when the church space you helped create and cultivate is not hospitable and inclusive of those in your own family with neurodivergent minds? Deb Gregory shares her story of traversing liminal spaces from her childhood into her professional career and how Ignatian spiritual practices have helped “moor” her to her faith and family. Deb is a spiritual director, former documentary filmmaker and church planter, and the founder of Flourish Contemplative Center. She is also the producer and host of the Betwixt Podcast. Having spent much of her life in transit, Deb enjoys the slow growth of roots with her family in Ormond Beach, FL. Where she enjoys listening with you: Flourish Spiritual Direction Where you can enjoy listening with her: Betwixt Podcast Time Stamps for the episode: 00:48 Introductions 02:50 What is Liminal Space Anyways? 06:37 Living in two worlds, belonging to neither 11:35 Where is home? 14:25 Faith roots, paradoxes, and contradictions 18:49 Lack of common spaces to hold paradox 22:08 Deconstruction as expected season of faith 27:17 Liminal seasons built into the liturgical calendar 32:39 Making space for folks in liminality 38:47 Neurodiversity and Disability in the church 44:26 Ignatius taking a cannonball to the knee 50:11 Ignatian spirituality 101 55:53 Ignatian practices 1:01:19 Pastors in liminal seasons 1:05:42 Inscape: the particular beauty of this moment 1:09:37 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E30: Keith Giles: Deconstruction is the Revival you Prayed For
Episode 30
S2 E30: Keith Giles: Deconstruction is the Revival you Prayed For
Today on the podcast I talk with prolific author and chief boat rocker, Keith Giles. We talk about his upbringing in the a fundamentalist Baptist Church, and his journey through deconstruction. You can find Keith's writings here: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/keithgiles/ and here: https://www.bk2sq1.com/ and here: https://rb.gy/9yjeod all music in this episode provided by axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E31: Rob Bell: Life, Death, and a Little Bit of Everything
Episode 31
S2 E31: Rob Bell: Life, Death, and a Little Bit of Everything
Today on the podcast I have the wonderful privilege of talking with Rob Bell about his new book, Where'd You Park Your Spaceship? We meander in conversation from topics like grief, surfing, death, life, resurrection, hope, dreams, and as the title suggests, a little bit of everything. You can find Rob's work here: www.Robbell.com Time Stamps for this episode: 1:58 Introductions 5:38 Graduating into new seasons of life 10:08 Saying "yes" to life and befriending death 16:23 Intellectual frames don't define reality 22:32 The accumulation of un-grieved grief 27:57 Learning to be human again through grief 34:14 Accepting mortality brings resurrection 41:27 Identity working itself out in writing 47:55 Two halves of Life in narrative 53:59 Heaven and Hell and Reality 1:00:15 En-fleshing ideas in humanity 1:06:38 "The News" and finding hope 1:12:38 We create the world we inhabit, we can uncreate it 1:18:04 Conclusion All music in this episode is provided by Axeltree. https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E32: Scot McKnight: Revelation, End Times, and Christian Nationalism
Episode 32
S2 E32: Scot McKnight: Revelation, End Times, and Christian Nationalism
S2 E32: Scot McKnight: Revelation, End Times, and Christian Nationalism Today I talk with Scot McKnight, he's the professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary, a history buff of early Christianity, a theology nerd, and a prolific author of almost 40 published books and academic articles. He's delved deep into topics like the historical Jesus, early Christianity, and how to live the Christian life. McKnight is ordained in the Anglican tradition and is theological advisor to Todd Hunter. Today we explore his most recent book, Revelation for the Rest of Us. We delve into his history in fundamentalism, conversion to Anglicanism, theological explorations, the Book of Revelation, political leanings, and more. It is a conversation to stretch your mind beyond the borders of standard American theology of the “End Times.” You can find Scot’s blog here: https://scotmcknight.substack.com/ You can find Scot’s books here: https://rb.gy/xl32he Time Stamps for the episode: 03:32 Introductions 07:14 Roots and Soil Scot grew up in 11:55 Early Fundamentalist Faith 16:45 Shifting to Anglicanism 20:58 Pause for Definition of terms 22:59 Rapture Trauma 27:58 Why this Book and Why now? 34:18 Speculative vs Imaginative readings of Revelation 40:11 Christian Nationalism steeped in Dispensationalism 46:44 Dissident Disciples or MAGA followers 49:46 Finding Hope in today’s world 54:19 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E33: Tom Rundel: Holding Conviction Confidently and Non-violently
Episode 33
S2 E33: Tom Rundel: Holding Conviction Confidently and Non-violently
Have you ever learned a new perspective, started a new diet, or become really religious, and then get on a mission to convert everyone in your path to this new thing… only to leave it behind at some point and wonder what’s real? Me too. It leaves you feeling guilty for being “wrong” or feeling shamed for convincing so many people of something you are not so sure of anymore. What do we do with this part of our history, and how can we hold our current convictions with both confidence and humility? In this episode I share some thoughts I have learned along the way of having conversations with wonderful folks on this podcast. I also offer some perspective on passages of scripture like the widow’s two mites, and the parable of the talents. Time Stamps for the episode: 00:43 Mental Furniture 05:45 Convert, Convince, Convict 11:14 Frames and how we hold them 16:13 Learning from perspectives not my own 21:52 Naming your frames to hold them non-violently 27:48 The Parable of the Talents 33:33 Parable of the Whistleblower 39:36 Interpreting scripture through our frame 44:12 Creating subcultures and naming it reality 49:38 Christian Nationalism 53:52 Hope is not an emotion, but an imagination 57:02 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E34: Dr Thomas Jay Oord: God is not Omnipotent, and that's good news
Episode 34
S2 E34: Dr Thomas Jay Oord: God is not Omnipotent, and that's good news
S2 E34: Dr Thomas Jay Oord: God is not Omnipotent, and that is Good news. “Can God microwave a burrito so hot that even he can’t eat it?” -Homer Simpson. All joking aside, today I talk to Dr Thomas Jay Oord about his new book, the Death of Omnipotence, the Birth of Amipotence. This book provides a critique of the classic doctrine of Omnipotence, and why it is good news that God is NOT all powerful. Dr Oord is an award-winning author, and he has written or edited more than thirty books. Oord directs a doctoral program at Northwind Theological Seminary and the Center for Open and Relational Theology. He won the Outstanding Faculty Award twelve times as a full-time professor He also speaks at institutions across the globe. Most recently at Theology Beer Camp with Tripp Fuller. He also runs the Ort Shorts podcast and has been featured on over 50 podcasts. Dr. Oord is known for his contributions to open and relational theology, science and religion, and freedom and relationships for transformation. He and his wife, Cheryl, have three daughters, a son-in-law, and two grandchildren. You can find his work at www.thomasjayoord.com Time Stamps for the episode: 03:18 Theology and Photography 08:55 From faith to Atheism and back to faith 14:47 The problem with “Apologetics” 19:42 Needing a modern moral framework 22:19 Omnipotent God OR Loving God 27:53 The Death of Omnipotence 34:01 Play the mystery card 38:06 Omnipotence vs Amipotence 42:53 God is all Loving with power, not All powerful with love 47:06 Abuses of Omnipotence 52:51 Authority vs Power 58:02 Pet Peeves and Hope 1:02:47 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E35: Kenneth Tanner: God Becomes Human in Christ... for real.
Episode 35
S2 E35: Kenneth Tanner: God Becomes Human in Christ... for real.
God became a human being, the incarnation, a central dogma of the Christian tradition that I was not taught in my Evangelical tradition. Well it was a messy necessity for Chgrist to be human so that the “real” dogma of substitutionary atonement was valid. Father Kenny and I dive into this concept in all its beauty today on what it means that God became human. Father Kenneth Tanner is pastor of Holy Redeemer in Rochester Hills Michigan, writer at Sojourners, Patheos, and Substack, author of an upcoming book called Vulnerable God: Retrieving the Wonder of God-With-Us in Our Humanity, teacher, and wonderful human being. Time Stamps for the episode: 00:31 Intro 03:40 Handing me mystery instead of answers 08:30 Mystery leads to awe and wonder 12:40 A long painful call into ministry 17:48 Grief and anxiety in ministry 22:05 The soil Father Kenny grew out of 25:41 Two responses to the Challenger tragedy 29:42 The expansive idea of God becoming human 34:39 Incarnation IS revelation of God 40:09 God’s humility in Christ is not an anomaly 45:11 The role of Mary in the Incarnation 51:49 God has a mother 57:18 Christ’s humanity is just like our humanity 1:03:32 Reading our fallenness back into God 1:07:59 Vulnerable God, the Book 1:12:43 Conclusion All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E36: Dr Chris Green: Dead Answers vs Living Questions
Episode 36
S2 E36: Dr Chris Green: Dead Answers vs Living Questions
S2 E35: Dr Chris Green: Dead Answers vs Living Questions Too often theology becomes more about trophy hunting for the “right” answers in order to impress and display. But trophies are dead things. Dr. Chris Green and I talk about the role of art and imagination in the theological process of finding living questions, which are small answers that lead to more questions and explorations. Dr. Chris Green is Professor of Public Theology at Southeastern University, the Bishop of the Diocese of St Anthony, and Director for St Anthony Institute of Theology, Philosophy, and Liturgics. He is the author and editor of a number of books, articles, and reviews, including most recently All Things Beautiful: An Aesthetic Christology. He and his wife, Julie, live in Cleveland, TN with their sons Clive and Emery, and their Weimaraner, Auggie. Their oldest, Zoë, is currently attending the University of Oklahoma. Time Stamps for the episode: 00:35 Intro 04:19 Theology and Art 08:25 Where does art come from? 13:46 What does art do? 18:19 Art involves us in the truth 23:46 Art opens us up to truth 28:29 Imagination and Faith 33:41 Sweaty Pentecostalism 38:29 Knowing more about demons than about God 44:31 Bonhoeffer 49:30 A true place to belong 55:22 Incarnation shows us what God is like 1:02:13 Conclusion All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
S2 E37: SEASON FINALE!!
Episode 37
S2 E37: SEASON FINALE!!
We made it to the end of the year! So to celebrate I revisited our top three most downloaded episodes*, as well as read some of your comments on your favorite moments. Thank you for listening and contributing to the conversation. Here is to a great season 3! *after recording this, Dr Chris Green’s episode released and became the #1 downloaded episode of the season. Time Stamps for the episode: 00:00 Intro 07:55 #3 most downloaded: Kenneth Tanner 14:40 #2 most downloaded: Rob Bell 21:25 #1 most downloaded: Matt Tebbe 27:46 Joe: Don’t Spiritualize Your Problems 35:20 Terri: Consolation and Desolation 41:43 Collette: Universal Redemption 46:27 Abigail: Kate’s Courage 52:14 Scott: Liminal seasons of new life 58:03 Dave: “The Bible Says” 1:03:51 Rosie: Frames and Reality 1:10:35 David: Rob Bell’s laugh 1:14:13 Conclusion All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/
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Welcome to the Liminal Living Podcast, where we dive deep into the realm of liminal spaces—those transitional phases where uncertainty is our companion. I'm your host and curator of conversations, Dr. Tom Rundel, and it's my pleasure to serve as your guide through these uncharted territories. With a doctoral background in spirituality and leadership from Portland Seminary, my research has centered on the spirituality found in the narratives of liminality in the Bible, but I have expanded my research to include other faith traditions and cognitive science. Since our launch in 2023, we've been dedicated to exploring the nuances of dark nights and deconstructions, but our journey expanded to include insights from a diverse array of modern-day thinkers and artists. Through a blend of stories, practices, and perspectives, we provide valuable guidance for fellow travelers navigating their own liminal spaces. So, join us as we embark on this journey and embrace the uncertainty in order to uncover the hidden wisdom that lies within the liminal spaces of life.
Liminal Livinglisten now
The Social Jesus Podcast
The Social Jesus Podcast
3 Episodes
A podcast where we talk about the intersection of faith and social justice, and what a first-century, Jewish, prophet of the poor from Galilee offers us today in our work of love, compassion and justice.
The Social Jesus Podcastlisten now
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